suggestion-discussion

[white cliff]

Oh I also believe that. Still waiting on the data though.

[mental valley]

That the game should solely focus around PvP. Says the balance will be ruined, otherwise.

[dusty cargo]

You should be able to solo queue in squads. Splitting the player base too much is only going to harm the game. It’s balanced around PvPvE, should not be balanced around PvE

[white cliff]

Yep, also agreed, it’s a fundamental.

[mental valley]

What he fails, and I'm willing to bet you, to understand, this game is not, strictly-speaking PvP-centered.

Who says solo players can't fight against teams of 3? I've fought teams of people as solo (and won). I've also lost to solo players in a team.

[dusty cargo]

The PvP aspect of the game is always present, so is the PvE, the potential of a PvP engagement in the dungeon will always influence how you navigate the dungeon, whether or not you want to fight other players

[mental valley]

You're getting away from the core concept, AGAIN. Powergamer. SoloPlayers can fight against teams.

[white cliff]

The core concept is pvp and gear risk though, it’s got pretty shallow pve elements, and they should work on them, but I don’t think a pve only mode is warrant development time.

[dusty cargo]

That’s my point, solo is a viable strategy in this game already, but don’t balance the game around a solo queue

[mental valley]

Wrong. The core concept is looting and extracting. The difference is where said loot comes from. If you kill 12 nakeds, but don't loot a single gold piece, do you win?

Do you make 2k, but don't kill a single person, do you win?

[white cliff]

Fair point, I win in both situations though.

[dusty cargo]

You don’t win in either situation. Winning is based off what you want out of the game

If you’re talking about HR leaderboards, you win by doing a number of things, pvp, pve, looting

[mental valley]

lol? "Winning is what you want out of the game."
Okay, say you play a match in a game. Your team loses 0 to 10. But you had fun. Did you win?

[white cliff]

Winning is certainly objective.

[mental valley]

The answer is most definitely not. Like, I understand your idiocy, but it's just plain wrong. Winning is not objective.

[dusty cargo]

No, multiple players can extract, some will get more gold, some will get more kills, some will get better gear, who wins?

[white cliff]

Let’s not resort to ad hominem attacks.

[mental valley]

That's because killing players is not the objective of the game.

[mental valley]

If killing players was the objective, there'd be a kill leaderboard you can check during each round.

[dusty cargo]

If you’re climbing veteran adventurer or killer outlaw, it is, there is literally a kill leaderboard

[white cliff]

Anyways I’m on my way back home with food, I like this topic of discussion though.

[thorny shadow]

How do some people have such consistency with bad suggestions

[mental valley]

We're not talking about veteran adventurer or killer outlaws. We're talking about how it affects solo queues.

Okay, here's the thing. You're wrong. But given how you think, you will never understand.

[mental valley]

This goes outside the scope of this conversation.

[dusty cargo]

Great argument lol. The only way built into the game to measure performance is on the HR leaderboards, if you’re talking about winning in Solos, you can earn a bunch of gold, but to what end?

[pliant oasis]

add nuclear bombs to the game

[thorny shadow]

Everyone thinking they know the true point to the game but I havent seen a single person say its to be challenged and have fun . Smh

[mental valley]

Better idea than removing solo queues

[abstract swallow]

Because they're recognizing problems with the game, but naturally gravitate towards surface-level details that they can compare to their previous experiences in other games.
This is why MMR and "___ queue" suggestions crop up so frequently, because people are very used to that being the solution to problems that directly affect players of their caliber.

Most players haven't beta-tested or made games before, so it's difficult for most people to try to look under the very opaque hood of a playtest to think of what could be different to alleviate an issue, or how that 'issue' may lend itself to the developer's vision which will make more sense in a feature-complete context.

[mental valley]

@abstract swallow
There actually is a value/rating system in DaD.

[thorny shadow]

Oh i was talking about the person who suggested a scifi reskin and everything else they suggest gets downvoted to hell

[dusty cargo]

Outside of HR?

[abstract swallow]

I know there's a global EXP tracker for each queue, but do you have a source that it's used anywhere?

[mental valley]

My rainman cousin seems to think so.

[pliant oasis]

why would they remove it

[mental valley]

Well, the guy that wants it removed says "Mah balancing"

[dusty cargo]

Because it splits the player base significantly, and it will lead to ruining the identity and strengths and weakness of classes within a team setting so that they are viable in solo play

[abstract swallow]

There are valid reasons for wanting Solo Dungeons removed/dropped, but I don't think the development and scope changes/costs outweigh the value the mode brings.

[mental valley]

I've never had issue with escaping as any of the classes I've played when solo. Not a single one.

DishonestBadger, he is not talking about SOLO DUNGEONS. He is talking about SOLO PLAYERS

[dusty cargo]

I am not talking about solo players, i have specifically said that it’s solo dungeons

[mental valley]

When and where?

[dusty cargo]

solo players dont split the player base, solo queues do

[mental valley]

solo queue = queueing solo
solo players = players solo
solo dungeon - dungeons that are solo

[white cliff]

Probably not, I have no clue what the dev cycle or cost analysis is current is like at iron mace. But there are for sure concerns with solo queue development for sure.

[mossy plank]

Solo dungenes seems mostake

[mental valley]

My time is more valuable than wasting it on a nincompoop, Powergamer. Toodles

[dusty cargo]

Solo queue and solo players mean the same thing in your definition.

[mossy plank]

Gives gear to farmers to gand off to friends. Then they pubstomp free dungeons where people running greys

Because ranger is a problem class in terms of having a balance of range classes are needed but range classes can also cheese the game

I'm pve terms

[junior hawk]

I don't mind the solo dungeon.
Though I personally don't like the troll boss as to kill it you have to cheese him pretty heavily to do him reliably.
They way that most people do him I think is poking his knee and while moving their head up and down as if they are blowing him one...

[abstract swallow]

At the very least, Goblin Caves fulfill two very important niches in the game: It introduces content that is explicitly balanced around shop-available gear, and it is content that can be completed in much less time than a traditional dungeon delve (especially with the coming addition of B1).
There are concerns with it polluting the scope of team-oriented balance and potentially splitting the playerbase, and these concerns are valid, but I don't believe they're going to become nearly as damaging as the detractors do.

[mossy plank]

Very 8ntelligent response tbh considering I'm blathering while drunk

[lament willow]

are you aware that melee classes can also 'cheese' the current pve content? the pve content is not meant to be the main challenge in the game - it's meant to modify and interrupt fights between players

[pliant oasis]

what do u guys think about bigger teams like 4 or 5 people

[mental valley]

Are you aware you don't even have to engage with other players to win? I doubt you are.

[lament willow]

teams of four should definitely be a game mode
that's the classic dnd party size for a reason

[mossy plank]

3s is a good hard limit for teaming so solos can compete

[gray vessel]

@raw belfry Interesting that your entire post is based on the premise that survival bow is bad... That was the bow I enjoyed the most and I tried purple versions of every bow. It has the highest damage output so how could it be bad?? Just because the long bow is easy for noobs doesn't mean longbow is best 🙂

[junior hawk]

I don't like the idea of chessing bosses though.
It kinda defeats the purpose of a boss fight. Where is the fun cheesing something with no challenge and get loot from it?
At some point it will be more of a chore that a actual fight

[mental valley]

PEOPLE! Listen to this grand new gamemode!!! Teams of 4 only!!!

[dusty cargo]

But your behavior is always influenced by other players in the dungeon, so this point is the most brainless take i’ve heard

[mental valley]

Powergamer, you're incapable of understanding. Shoo

[cobalt obsidian]

Ive shot a plate fighter around 20 + times with a 22 damage surv bow with around 8 - 10 headshots. He did not die.

😄 Survival bow is bad.

[pliant oasis]

i agree

[gray vessel]

Wow you tried physical damage against a class that can have 95% physical damage reduction! You really dismantled my point

[stray saffron]

well the game isn't balanced to let solo's compete, that's a handicap you choose on your own. this is why they invented the solo dungeon which they weren't planning to do. the major complain of the solo dungeon is the loot you could get from it, which if they release it again will be far less than it is now to balance how easy to farm it is

[pliant oasis]

good this game is meant to play with a team

[cobalt obsidian]

Wow! a class can mitigate all forms of physical damage and I literally just cant win unless im a mage? Great pvp! We should listen to you

[lament willow]

the bosses or optional pve content that likewise de-aggros when you leave the room are the one part that could be made much harder fairly reasonably without impacting the pvp
however the original statement was that ranged guys can cheese or inherently are cheesier and thus a problem etc
which is the current case only because the bosses rely on things that kill melee more easily for most of if not all of their mechanics
instant death slow ranged attacks, aoes they place under their feet, hard to block wildly physics-defying swings etc

[cobalt obsidian]

As if that 95% damage mitigation should be the standard we use for pvp in this game.

[mossy plank]

There's an inherent asymmetry between solo play and team play. Teams meed increased coordination and maintanence between one another.

[cobalt obsidian]

And I bet 20+ shots from the longbow kills that dude anyways 😄

survival bow bad? yup.

[dusty cargo]

In many ways it is. There are surely benefits to having a team, but there are also benefits to going into the dungeon as a solo player.

[gray vessel]

Who said I endorsed it? You are applying logic that is completely irrelevant to the conversation because you don't know how to provide any meaningful input to the conversation. So your only chance at winning is to make it seem like your opponent is stupid rather than actually proving it. If you are going to only look at the baseline stats of a single item rather than evaluating the complexity of other gear, abilities, ect, then you have no bases in this argument.

[cobalt obsidian]

this dude thinks the 95% phys mitigation is canon 😄 listen to this ^

[stray saffron]

but then you can't complain when you're up against a team and you're disadvantaged. it's based around trio's not solos

[junior hawk]

Well, if the fighter has 95% dmg reduction.
You shots would had done literly 1 dmg to him.

[mossy plank]

Solos can move better than a team because they don't have ti worry about the skelly that spawned behind them attacking since the solo is out of the room before it's a problem.

[cobalt obsidian]

So the example you used was a mute point because 95% phys mitigation is stupid by your own admission and more than likely not a feature 😄

Survival bow bad.

[dusty cargo]

I never complain about that. You’re not strictly disadvantaged, you have some strengths over a group of three and they have some strengths over you.

[cobalt obsidian]

If survival bow takes 40 shots to kill a longbow takes 15? Yeah survival bow bad.

[stray saffron]

they always have the advantage, how you deal with it is skill based. but this is also another reason why people are against solo...now solo people feel like it should scale to them

[mossy plank]

Asymmetry is interesting and fun to explore from a theory craft standpoint tbh

[gray vessel]

I was gonna explain the math Nuro, but I changed my mind. You are extremely disrespectful and I would prefer you stay ignorant. It will just be free gear in game when I find you 🙂 "sUrViVaL bOw BaD."

[cobalt obsidian]

Who uses an example and then 5 lines later voids their point? chadiator does.. the gigachad,

[mossy plank]

Interesting asymmetry is barb in solo dungeon can just charge through all the doors with bash

[cobalt obsidian]

of approval.

[stray saffron]

guys discussing is fine, but let's stay respectful. don't want them to raise the slowmode timer again

[mossy plank]

Had some games i led half the dungeon onto some loser

[junior hawk]

Survival bow isn't bad at all.
Is just a tank fighter is basically Immortal to the likes of rangers. They completely counter them.
Though you rarely seen fighters equipped like that.

[dusty cargo]

I am against solo dungeons, fine with people choosing to go into the forbidden castle as a solo player against other solos AND teams. Solo players only have to find a single blue, while teams are often forced to go into inferno to ensure everyone extracts. Solos can much more easily utilize stealth and darkness to avoid unfavorable pvp conditions

[stray saffron]

see this is why they shouldn't change anything. i'm not against a solo mode as i play the game mostly solo and put myself at that disadvantage tho i also enjoyed the goblin caves alot. only change i'd make is not make their loot that high in solo maps

[dusty cargo]

And solos don’t have to worry about friendly fire, and can use friendly fire to their benefit when taking on groups, and they can intercept heals/buffs or at the very least, deny them

[dusty cargo]

My issue with the existence of goblin caves is splitting the player base and balancing the classes so that more strategies are viable in solo-only dungeons

[mossy plank]

The biggest issue of solo mode is all npcs are going to be cheesable so someone is going to cheese a solo boss and means they feed pubstompers more gear

[junior hawk]

Btw, that might not be the case in the future of teams forced to search a blue or red.
Currently, they are 2 levels of the dungeon, but the devs plan for a 3 level.
Which should be where everyone starts, then is the forbidden castle, then is hell.
If they add more blue portals to the first level, escaping might prove to be easier.

[gray vessel]

I'm hoping that the solo dungeon was only for testing to see the viability of the caves, which in turn would mean if it wasn't good enough it won't be a permanent feature of the game.

[dusty cargo]

The likely implementation will be fewer, if any blues in the first level, more blues in the second level, and even fewer in hell

[mossy plank]

It's a complicated calculation to be done for sure but all I can do is offer perspective that will likely be ignored to contribute

[stray saffron]

it doesn't split as much as people worry about tho. same with duo and such they worry it will affect queue speeds...2 minutes wait for a game isn't that bad if the player count drops.

only issue i can see arising is people complaining that one class is better than another and want nerfs where there aren't needed because they can't win against a class

[gray vessel]

yeah I'd agree with that completely. The most obvious way is to have very few escape portals so most people have to go dungeon 2

[junior hawk]

That is something that we will learn only in the future.
But still, I find the solo dungeon alright.
Though I recement to play on forbidden castle despite being solo, some people don't like the idea of having to fight a team of 3 as solo and feel that it's unfair.
They will get the feeling that their are doomed to die against such team.

[gray vessel]

The addition of solos made the dungeon almost all trios rather than how it used to be with a good mix of solo, duo, trio. I think its only hurting the game but It wont kill the game

[stray saffron]

honestly don't see an issue with many escape portals on b1 and b2 lowers per floor. if people want to get out early with bad gear that's their choice. currently red was used as an emergency blue either way

[cobalt obsidian]

Trios had to fight more of their own kind? Sounds like better fights for them.

[gray vessel]

I guess that's fair, I am biased towards wanting a more unique game since I love the concept of several floors being integral to the design

[cobalt obsidian]

reasons they might be upset? People used the solo dungeon and there was less loot pinatas for them... Good

[mossy plank]

Issue is with more.floors ATM is everyone butchers one another on the first floor

[junior hawk]

More fights, more blood, more loot, more fun.
Is what I would like to think, but there are people who don't see it that way.

[mossy plank]

How do tailor incentives to avoid the initial butchering? I dunno tbh but is.sometijng to consider on dev side

[junior hawk]

Yeah, that's such a sad truth honestly.

[stray saffron]

yeah this is why people want to force lobbies together, like multiple b2 and b3 lobbies merging to just add more players because people kill eachother too much? it's kinda dumb imo

[dusty cargo]

There was much better loot if you went inferno, and killing the bosses is how you got uniques, definitely an incentive to go red

[mossy plank]

There's inventive in thinking then incentive emotionally

BecUse killing is a reward in of otself, coming from a habitual pker. Who runs 3s to kill.aa.many as we can

[stray saffron]

most of the time people didn't go inferno cause they either escaped, died by pve or killed by players, there just weren't people left to go down unless you couldn't find a blue alot of the time

[dusty cargo]

No, practically, if you wanted to climb any of the leaderboards, other than killer outlaw, you always went red as a squad

[mossy plank]

It's a hard calculus to work out ngl

[dusty cargo]

The free treasure hoard in inferno was the most cost effective way to rank up treasure collector

[stray saffron]

i just think it should stay how it is, big lobby gets weeded out

[dusty cargo]

Killing the mobs in inferno and the bosses was the best way to rank up veteran adventurer.

[mossy plank]

Monkey brain say kill tho

[raw belfry]

My suggestion is not based on a bias towards it, with the current ranger kit/abilities, the shortbow burst capabilities are literally the worst. Shotgun AND triple shot with any other bow will do more damage. Poison will give survival bow with a lower damage but higher attack speed, a better use case

[mossy plank]

How do you placate the murderlust of Shitter gankers

[dusty cargo]

Because the PvP is the most exciting part of the game

[mossy plank]

That turn an entire lobby of 16-20 into nothing

[dusty cargo]

You just play smarter, more stealthy, you listen for where players are, groups of 3 are really loud

[mossy plank]

I'm more speculating from developing perspective

[dusty cargo]

you can play in the darkness more, there’s ways to escape even as a solo against those barb/cleric/wizard death balls

[stray saffron]

i mean just look at all the deaths in a dungeon, either highly pvp death or tons of pve deaths

[gray vessel]

The 5 shot was bad but triple shot was completely fine for survival bow imo. It still has higher attack speed so the 3 shot burst is instant rather than having to hit 3 different shots on the longbow. Plus the movespeed difference makes it so you can still move while using abilities rather than being almost stuck in place with the slow longbow. I really don't think its that much of a downside compared to the overall dps increase

[dusty cargo]

PvE deaths are only high because the game is new

[stray saffron]

well yeah and it's supposed to be hardcore as in already dialed up to hard more...tho i feel ai may be even more powerful (as in go from hard to very hard)

[harsh belfry]

They should add mid game party up in solo q to help push people to group up and then leave the solo Q dungeon and go run with your new friend in the big boy Q

[cobalt obsidian]

No one uses the survival bow because its just so misunderstood 🤣 / s

[dusty cargo]

No one uses the survival bow because it’s awful

[cobalt obsidian]

The survival bow users are the real goat rangers. They have been trying to keep the ultra dps a secret ! shhhhhh

[dusty cargo]

wrong person to reply to, sorry

[cobalt obsidian]

He did the algebra and knows the numbers. We are ignant.

[stray saffron]

it's the attack speed vs attack power debate, both are useful in their own way.

[cobalt obsidian]

Maybe if the surv bow didnt suffer from the most extreme arrow drop and you could reliably use the bow farther than 15m.

[raw belfry]

This, its like throwing the worlds heaviest potato

[junior hawk]

Well yes but actual no... is what the current situation of the survival bow is.
If you use two skills, that bow can shoot 7 arrows in like now time.
Not only is that a lot of dmg, but it also slows the enemy and you are quite fast even holding it

[dusty cargo]

The attack speed difference from the survival to the recurve is minimal, but the damage difference is huge

[junior hawk]

The unique survival bow fixes this downside.
Otherwise you have to be quite skilled to do long shots with it

[dusty cargo]

Ok, a recurve can fire 6 just as fast but they literally will almost double damage per arrow, and then you can quick shot to instantly refill your quiver and fire 6 more, 3 of them extremely quickly

A quick shot with the survival will almost never kill even a base kit player, while 3 shots from the recurve will often instantly kill

[raw belfry]

The attack speed % increase does not compare equally to the damage increase % when comparing a common recurve to a common survival

[stray saffron]

i mean same can be said about most weapons in general

[cobalt obsidian]

its in the name.... survival bow.. Its the make shift piece of shit bow you craft at the beginning of survival games. Maybe its just not meant to be used.

[junior hawk]

Don't take it the wrong way, I personaly find recurve the best bow, though I prefer to use a longbow.
But a survival bow isn't bad and is a lot quicker that a recurve.
A survival bow should be used with the two skills to quickly shoot 7 arrows like a minigun.

[dusty cargo]

It’s actually closest in dps when the bows are both low quality, but as you increase in bow quality, the recurve becomes so much stronger than the survival

[junior hawk]

Well, even I wouldn't consider using a crappy survival bow...

[stray saffron]

i really don't get why people are so upset about multishot and quickshot...it's basically 2 fast reload skills just with an additional effect if they look at it from that way instead of "so unfair they get arrows back" it changes the whole perspective

[junior hawk]

Multishot and quickshot.
Aka a Shotgun and a triple shot sniper that cancel's reloading.
Both are two high damage skills that can melt one guy in one guy.
I personaly don't have any complains about them, but I can see reasons as of why people would hate them.

[raw belfry]

If they ran the numbers and made the %'s match between each bow, it would become preference instead of what is technically better

Meaning if survival bow is 20% faster than recurve, each recurve would be 20% stronger than its survival counterpart etc

[stray saffron]

i mean in the end there's no difference to the skill than 3x firing in a row and the other shoots in all directions missing most of your arrows with the spread, no + damages, no magical bonus damage, no armor penetration, quickfire does the same but doesn't allow a reload

[forest notch]

How do people feel about the loot focused class idea? I sorta enjoy the idea of leaning into like, a loot goblin mentality. Vulnerable pilferer

[raw belfry]

Currently if you triple shot a longbow with base 50dmg with quickshot that takes 1 second to burst 150, or takes half a second to burst 60 damage with a base surv with 20dmg, one does a 3rd of their health, one does ALL of their health with super minimal time difference

[stray saffron]

that's what i mean, there's nothing broken about the abilities cause in the end the one using them still can miss

would say cleric and wizard outranks it but it's definitely in the needs practise category

no as in requires some skill

[pallid sleet]

rogue is much more difficult than ranger

[junior hawk]

The problem is that those can kill one guy in a matter of a instance and 2 seconds.
The quickshot is the most deadly ability of a ranger, maybe exept of a tank fighter, each class has to respect it otherwise you get killed.
2 shots in the head might be you down fall after all.
As for multishot, it isn't that great. But it is suppose to be used like a shotgun.
Once a fighter or barb has come close to you, like felling axe range close, shot them down.
That can instant or bring them very close to death.
Also by quickshot, it might sound like shoot 3 shots faster that normal, but in a game were 1 second can decide a fight, it's extremely strong.
Heck! Clerics bind ability isn't even 1 second long and is already a strong spell

[raw belfry]

Would love to see some crossbow boosting ability as it can't use the best ranger abilities. Maybe like "next shot ignores 35% armor" or something. Obviously with someone who is better at math determining a fair % amount. Right now, none of the rangers activated abilities help when wielding a crossbow

Has the lowest project drop so even the ability that COULD help it, doesnt do much currently

[junior hawk]

Well, if that ignore 35% armor can go to the negative, it would be no different that deal 35% more dmg with a crossbow.
Which would make the windlass quite absurd

[stray saffron]

i'd argue that quickfire is more deadly as it allows more than 3 arrows in rapid succession, the draw back is you got to manually reload and it wears off in the time you do that.

[raw belfry]

Would not increase total damage amount proportionately unless your armor total = your health total

And you would only get the one shot + cooldown, and you'd have to hit the shot

If we are talking damage potential, the triple shot would still do more damage than even a boosted crossbow so long as you hit the shots for both

[junior hawk]

I argue back that in a fight, despite quickfire having more potetial to shoot more arrows, quickshot is way quicker in the short term.
Heck, I would even combine those two to make quickshot shoot faster that it already does.
This is the build of using a survival bow btw, getting those two skills to gain a minigun

[graceful frost]

I don't but ok like my second time posting it. also the reload is very good? you don't have to cancel the skill to get the reload? You still get 2 extra bullets with a longbow, along with 3 that are used in the ability. also long range when you have multishot you will be canceling the ability for 5 arrows since its not rlly useful.

[raw belfry]

If you are using a survival bow and hes full plate, yeah that would be expected lol

[graceful frost]

no happens even with longbow

[junior hawk]

Is actual pretty common to escape a bear trap as a fighter, as you don't die from triple shot that easily, more so if you have a shield

[graceful frost]

havent posted it 3 times lmao. and the reload is a problem, I have a ton of hours on ranger, it is very much a problem. They don't ever have to reload rlly, even if they don't cancel it, which the main thing that makes it good isn't canceling all the time, I just added that since it was something else you can do in some situations. you can just keep shooting and make it very hard for anyone to approach, should punish you for missing with having to reload, no reason for a ranger to never have to reload. or when they need to reload just being able to run, wait for quickshot, use it and then have 2-4 spare bullets

[raw belfry]

I would argue that it depends on items and abilities/level.
I starter fighter with base gear vs a ranger that is maxed with greens+ will win pretty much regardless of skill, and a starter ranger with a shit bow VS a fighter with full green+ plate gear+ abilities could pretty much just tank every shot and run straight up to them without feeling much

Which is how the gameplay is supposed to work, otherwise levels and gear wouldn't matter and we would all run naked level 1's only :p

[stray saffron]

idk we're speaking 50% increase already on 7 instead of 3 fast ones...this is the reason why multi and quickshot don't do any additional effects. then people could argue they're too broken

[graceful frost]

don't see how after 3 messages you hit me with the no desire to be swayed. maybe im not being swayed cause I have 200+ hours of abusing quickshot and not having to reload on ranger, and you haven't given a single good point to consider? all you have said is its not broken and its not a problem, if you want to sway me try giving me some reasoning?

[fiery gust]

Ranger uses hidden potions, and a bow attack is much better than a thief. They can take head shots from a long distance.

[junior hawk]

Nah, they aren't broken. Just people don't know how to dodge arrows, that's it.
The first instict that I beated myself as a fighter is to dange around and break my spine when hearing the quickshot being drawed.
Yes, it's deadly, but not game breaking

[stray saffron]

but can't you argue that the abilities are just glorified reloads already as they don't do any additional effects? sure multi shoots 5 spread and quick does 3 a bit faster in a row you can't stop, but in the end it's just a reload skill mainly

[junior hawk]

If we are talking about something broken, it is the throwing axes. Those things are stupid beyond stupidity

[stray saffron]

especially with the +10 from a barb...

[graceful frost]

against a good ranger dodging arrows isn't always possible, but most of the time you just go behind a wall when they use quickshot, abuse jiggle peak until they are low on ammo but then push. ( @stray saffron how am i arguing " the abilities are just glorified reloads? I have never said that or even implied that? I know they are still abilities lol? I am saying remove the reload not make the ability into a reload

[junior hawk]

Bah! Don't even mention it. Insane dmg with a slower better that the wizards spell...

[stray saffron]

no you aren't implying it, it's what i'm implying. instead of giving only a few arrows back and replace it with or add a possible 1 time reload skill, both skills are already a glorified reload skill.

[fiery gust]

Francesca Axe can use the Ranger's quick shot three times.
That's why they took first and second place in the kill rankings.

[graceful frost]

non stop lmao sure man sure. first what does "even it was instant its still not a problem" also your not wasting the ability to get a full reload. Please for the love of god read what I said? I am not saying rlly anything to do with canceling the ability? I do not thing thats the reason its strong, again, I added that in my suggestion as just 1 more thing. The main thing I think is good is you can use the ability from 0, get the 3 arrows from quickshot to shoot at someone, and have 2-4 leftover. also again your 3rd point is only mainly to do with canceling it, which is not my main reasoning. again please read, canceling the ability isn't part of my main argument, It is not best to cancel the ability for the reload in most situations.

[limber solstice]

Are you unironically arguing against the idea that Ranger never has to reload and can make it impossible to push them (situationally)?

[graceful frost]

also that reload skill was just a suggestion, idk if it should be in or not. also you should need to sacrifice that extra damage you get from quickshot and quickfire to have a free reload if you want it. both skills are a glorified reload, meaning you get the ability and dps of both, while still having free reloads from using them.

[stray saffron]

hold up...ranger skill worked on throwables to get free throws?

[limber solstice]

REALLY?!

[stray saffron]

first time i heard of it, that's why i'm asking

[limber solstice]

That sounds broken, can't be right.

[graceful frost]

ranger should have to reload? currently they barely need to reload cause of quickshot, and in some cases multishot, I am suggesting a change to make them have to reload and punish more for missing bullets, so the player can actually push a ranger. Currently if you miss a ton, you just pop quickshot and don't have to reload, or if someone gets close, half the time you can just run and stall for quickshot for the free 3 bullets along with 2 extra.

[earnest widget]

They shoot arrows not bullets

[stray saffron]

if they can stall so long for their cooldown to come back then they also haven't shot a single arrow for so long which should be plenty of time to catch up

[limber solstice]

Even with cooldowns, if a Ranger is running Triple Shot and Wide Shot they literally can have up to 18ish arrows at one time depending on the bow. If you don't have multiple angles and good coordination how do you push that?

[stray saffron]

15-18-21 depending on what bow

[fiery gust]

Francesca's attack speed is as fast as a quick shot. You can also throw it 9 times.

[dusty cargo]

Rangers have extremely high agility and if you put away your weapons you can usually just run long enough to get your quick shot back up

[graceful frost]

"no argument on my end" its like you don't read my points? there is very well an argument, especially with quickshot. Quickshot has a 17 second cooldown, and when you use it you get 3 bullets for the skill, which are used with the skill, but also get 2 more after. those 2 more arrows do a lot, especially when you can just run, stall for quickshot, use it use the 3 bullets for free, then have 2 extra to continue with. I think you underestimate how strong those 2 are, and its true the only real argument for multi shot is canceling it, but a lot of the time the ability of multishot only is helpful at close range, I would much rather take the free reload from canceling multishot, instead of normal reloading, letting them get close and hoping multishot can save me

[fiery gust]

https://youtu.be/HY8ebTYKWug

[earnest widget]

I wish I had a bow that shoots bullets

[stray saffron]

this is why some classes have a sprint to catch up, rogues are faster, mage has haste...just leaves cleric that can't keep up.

Also if you let them kite you, then it's on you. let them run, if they want a kill they need to chase you

[pliant oasis]

its called a gun

[graceful frost]

not rlly the case. you use the ability at mid range, use the 3 bullets, then you can use the 2 bullets after that on longbow. by then your at least half way done with the cooldown, if they start pushing take 4 seconds 5 seconds to get to you when you are out of bullets, you turn around run for 5 seconds and you have quickfire again, and easily shoot them and push them back. also this doesn't even include multishot

[limber solstice]

Exactly. Nobody really talks about this because Rangers do have weaknesses, but a lot of the time you just don't push Rangers directly almost ever (unless the room is really big, but even then, that means you got a long way to go to hit the Ranger in melee). Most of the time if the Ranger is posted up you literally just leave and go a different way. If a Ranger is good enough / geared enough and ESPECIALLY if they have a Fighter who knows how to guard a choke correctly you can't push them at all- its suicide.

[dusty cargo]

Other than haste, the other buffs aren’t enough to catch a ranger unless you also put away your weapon, and then when you catch up to try and pull out your weapon, the ranger will keep running while you’re slowed again and you won’t be able to land a swing

[stray saffron]

if they are that close already...you don't have time to get yourself that cooldown, you're dead. people forgot how long combat lasts in this game, it's not that long

[limber solstice]

Also, I want to point out, the problem with Ranger isn't that even with double ammo reset that they "never" reload, but that they effectively never need to reload in a Fight or Flight situation.

[fiery gust]

Ranger is not a matter of balance. There are barbarians stronger than they are. You have to look at this.https://youtu.be/HY8ebTYKWug We need to talk about the Barbarians.

[limber solstice]

Yeah everyone knows Barbarians can out DPS Rangers with throwing axes.

[stray saffron]

this is why throwing weapons are a thing to help catch up too

[graceful frost]

I don't see why a ranger should have 15+ free arrows without a single reload so they don't have to worry about missing, and the other person can't push that wall of arrows, or can't without very very good play. The class should be high skill. and if you miss too many shots and don't get the movement slow on hit to slow the player down and make them take cover, you should have to reload if you miss too many, instead of getting 10 more arrows for free. also @stray saffron you can easily run? if you run out of ammo when they are at mid range, and they start pushing, it is extremely easy to pull fists on, turn around and run away for a few seconds and then just pop quickshot and if the person is in the open trying to push you just insta burst them

[limber solstice]

But Rangers can shoot you across the map in High Roller in the Rotunda map layout, for example.

[stray saffron]

well think about it...give them a quiver like they plan too now they start with 20, would that make a difference?

[dusty cargo]

It can last really long if you play well, the throwing weapons have a really low effective range unless the target is just running in a straight line away

[raw belfry]

I honestly like the idea of having to HAVE the arrows you are using like other projectiles, could even have different arrow types
If they couldnt use melee i would be against it

[limber solstice]

I'm not saying I disagree with what you're saying, but you realize the design flaw of making a basically mandatory quick reload skill, right?

[graceful frost]

? I mean it would since you have 20 arrows plus abilities. I mean if you have no abilities and give them 20 ammo and have them reload after, it is pretty similar to the current situation

[stray saffron]

fights currently really don't last long at al, there's no real defensive play that draws it out besides hit and flee

[stray saffron]

that's what i mean, it's no different than it would be then just lower quiver amounts at a time, and they already need to take both skills to get that many arrows before reloading is necessary

[graceful frost]

quickshot is a basically mandatory skill. that also has quick reload lol. also my suggestion was not rlly about a quick reload skill, I had that in there but the entire point was not that or even close to that. for example many rangers don't use multishot, which is effectively a free quick reload skill, but can also be used close range.

[graceful frost]

don't really understand what your trying to say, I don't see how having 20 ammo in a quiver has much to do with this. this sentence makes no sense to read

[stray saffron]

i disslike it cause it's just more inventory clustering to have physical arrows. tipped arrows aren't that difficult to do with the system now. hold R and choose your arrow, the better the arrow the less you have

[stray saffron]

well think about it, what ranger only has 5-7 to begin with?

[limber solstice]

I agree that Quickshot is kind of mandatory, but you can choose to take only one of them, and at the least if its mandatory it does more than just make you reload fast and actually is an ability to make it easier to fight (besides the free arrows). If you make quick reload a skill you'd then basically split what was one skill into two and now you've made a mandatory reload ability and removed Ranger's ability to burst which would really hurt them.

[graceful frost]

its a terrible idea needing to have arrows in your inventory or have limited ones. I like the idea of different arrows which I think could be implemented with class specific spells whicht he devs were looking at

[graceful frost]

it would not be mandatory at all? you would split 1 into 2 because having both in 1 was broken, also again the skill was just a simple concept, has nothing to do if my actual main point. again would not be mandatory, would be nice to have but not mandatory

[limber solstice]

At least with the way quick/spread shot work now you can take one for the instant reload and then take something else like Field Rations, the weird trueshoot skill, etc.

[limber solstice]

It would 100% be mandatory. How can you destroy the instant reload abilities and it not be mandatory? Its already mandatory now.

Oh you want them to have expanded quiver. I understand now.

[graceful frost]

? 1 quiver holds 5-7 and they have infinite quivers? that didn't really help to clarify at all. a ranger shouldnt be able to fire 20 bullets without needing to reload. if you miss too many bullets you should need to reload, and allow them to push on you, not be able to fire 20 without a reload, with the 5-10 arrows you get you shot have to hit your shots and apply move slow and preasure

[proud tinsel]

Everyone that can't use a bow is limited in ranged attacks, It only makes sense that they limit rangers as well. It sounded very much like its already in the works so we will see in the next play test

[stray saffron]

well you can argue then too that to use skills you shouldn't gain arrows but have them. which just means quiver increases to 20 as a standard dnd ranger...what difference does it make? nothing

[graceful frost]

nope not at all? don't see how in any way you got that idea. I do not want a bigger quiver, I never said I did. also it is mandatory now cause quickshot is a free reload along with a strong ability giving high dps. also a mandatory ability isn't bad for a class, many classes have it, almost every class does, its just that mandatory ability being unbalanced like the current case with quickshot

[dusty cargo]

Source that its in the works?

[limber solstice]

Ok now you lost me. You realize that the other classes don't have to reload right?

[stray saffron]

quiver's been mentioned before

[graceful frost]

the quiver shouldn't increase to 20? I don't see why the quiver would need to increase to 20? It should stay around where it is or at what its at. I mean the skills should give enough arrows to use the skill no more

[dusty cargo]

By devs? Because in really early playtests, you didnt have to refill your 5/6/7 arrows, I think thats what they meant when they said quiver

[fiery gust]

Barbarians, Rangers, and wizards need nuffs!!!

[graceful frost]

don't care didn't ask, there is no way you have nothing better to do to scroll up all the way in suggestions for no reason lmao.

[limber solstice]

So you just had infinite arrows?

[stray saffron]

then that still leaves a full quiver when you cancel multi for a long bow

[dusty cargo]

I didnt play then, but some of the early players said that before the December playtest, ranger didnt have a quiver

[graceful frost]

please read. I did not say anything with other characters being able to reload. I said having a mandatory skill is not always bad, and every class has some sort of madatory skill. how that does go to me saying every class can reload. also @stray saffron if you read my suggestion you would have seen I said you should remove the cancel to not get arrows back on it

[limber solstice]

If he's making a suggestion he wants people to agree with him. You can say he's annoying, but they don't have to listen to him lol.

[stray saffron]

yeah and that's dumb, wizards can cancel spells too right?

[graceful frost]

or maybe I have the memory of a goldfish and can't remember how many times I did it? I mean I though I did it around 2-3 times but ig I forgot. also many people have agreed with my suggestions, again don't see how it matters. It is not me trying to be dishonest it is me not being able to remember anything

[limber solstice]

Having mandatory skills is absolutely bad. Its almost by definition bad design. Why would you give people the choice to use two different abilities from a pool of abilities but make one so insanely good that you essentially have no choice to use it or get massively punished for not using it?

[graceful frost]

you could keep the cancel but not get arrows back? also skills do not compare to wiz spells? no other skill in the game can be cancelable and get the cooldown back like canceling a wizard spell gives the spell back.

[limber solstice]

Its like saying the 95% DR Fighter is fine because some people have armor pen abilities / magic damage. Just not balanced, fun, or interesting.

[graceful frost]

ok? but again having a reload ability is not a mandatory skill that you get massively punished for using? every other skill has higher dps, quickfire also gives a faster reload and really fast shot speed. still reasoning for other abilities. all I was saying is there are alot of mandatory abilities for other classes. also again this doesn't rlly matter, Idc if that skill was a bad or good idea, I added it to my suggestion cause why not, was not a main point

[tame pewter]

hey so anyone that is seeing my suggestion in the suggestion channel please @ me if you don't agree I would love to know why and hear if I'm missing something

[limber solstice]

Yeah but Wizards get an entire pool of abilities to choose from with anywhere from 3-7ish uses for EACH ability

[dusty cargo]

Not all playstyles have to be the meta, the rest of the ranger skills are viable, and you still have a second skill slot where most of them have a place

[floral bison]

How doe this make sense? If you no shoot arrow, you put back in quiver. What, does the dude load up for a mulitshot and decide "Eh fuck it" and drop them on the ground instead?

[tame pewter]

cause its good for gameplay?

[stray saffron]

so then you used the skill and it's on cooldown and gain nothing? Wiz spells in the end is a skill too. and that's cause most skills are an activate cooldown on hit unless it gives an immediate effect

[graceful frost]

don't see how it removes skill expression lmao. also @limber solstice r how does wizard getting spells has anything to do with this? I said compared wizard spells to character skills isnt a good comparison. also @floral bison it doesn't need to always be realistic you could also say where does ranger get his arrows from, for quickshot and multishot how does it go from 0 arrows to 5 arrows instantely without a reload? How is monsters and magic realistic.

[limber solstice]

Right now it IS mandatory. Because being able to essentially stall any push because you don't have to reload is insanely strong. Its also insanely strong for burst and sustained damage. Other classes have higher DPS BUT THEY'RE MELEE OR WIZARD. There shouldn't be mandatory abilities for any classes, its bad design.

[limber solstice]

The way you make not all playstyles meta is by making everything situationally good. When an ability is so good almost all the time, or required or be literally impossible to beat a certain scenario, is going to force you to take that ability. If you don't you will lose to other players who do bring it. Thats the point of balancing things, so the meta is more diverse and situational.

[graceful frost]

again not saying there should be mandatory skills. just saying there is mandatory skills for evrey other class also. Again the quickshot is really strong cause it realoads AND gives high dps. anyway I am dont responding to you, I don't think this skill has anything to do with anything. I don't think it would be broken, and I don't care to argue about a random idea for a skill that went into my head that I added to my suggetion. WHICH HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH, the main point of the suggestion whcih I made clear

I like the idea of gear should have more guaranteed stats, have said a similar thing myself a lot

[limber solstice]

Guaranteed in magnitude or certain archetypes?

[dusty cargo]

I mean we can all think of scenarios when another skill set might be stronger than having quickshot, those situations just arent as common for the way that rangers like to play.

[graceful frost]

yeah, I just want rarity to mean a bit more lmao, my brain breaks when I see a blue go for the same amount as a unique loll

[stray saffron]

just mean the unique was just that horrible with what stats it came with. should there be a difference, yes, should it be a big difference...no

[graceful frost]

yeah ik. but with how rare it is, just gets sad that if you get bad attributes its borderline useless

[tame pewter]

I don't really agree with this solution because it removes the hype behind "god rolls" and I think that the random stats adds a uniqueness to every item.

Also I don't see how the solution that I offered wouldn't fix the problems because of the reasons I listed in the suggestion, and it really shouldn't negatively impact anyone's experience with the game.

[dusty cargo]

Every ranger skill other than True Shot saw significant play, its not really an issue for ranger. Fighter skills on the other hand, I didn't see anyone running any setup other than second wind and sprint

[limber solstice]

But Rangers "like" to play that way because it removes a weakness they have almost completely which no other skill can do. Quickfire shoots faster. You can already shoot. True Shot increases arrow speed. Arrows already move pretty fast. Field Ration heals you. There are healiing items. Quick shot and Multi shot instantly reload. You cannot do that without at least one of these skills.

[graceful frost]

I was actually thinking about using true shot next playtest, since I play a ton of valorant having a close to hit scan single shot can do a lot of good for me.

[stray saffron]

well main part why i think your suggestion wouldn't work is that the flat and true damage wasn't the issue. but the % based modifiers that made the classes as highly broken as they were.

[limber solstice]

Yeah and I never said both were mandatory. But at least one reload ability is kind of mandatory. And I think a one or two of the other Fighter skills can situationally be ok, but I agree, those 2 for Fighter are kind of mandatory.

[tame pewter]

Flat + damage stats are way better than % based up until a attack does 100 base damage (which doesn't really happen) and pretty much everyone agrees with this.

[dusty cargo]

Pretty much every ranger runs quickshot, but there was decent diversity in the second skill slot, I preferred Quick Fire, rations was good if you didnt have a lot of healing, and multishot was situationally good. Fighter gets kited, but now he hits Sprint and is much harder to kite, how is that not similar

[stray saffron]

but guarantee takes away the aspect of rng, that's no good. it's like how some people want a guarantee good drop for doing something hard, sure hard works get rewarded with better rng chance, shouldn't be a 100% chance

[pallid lichen]

This idea would basically be an equalization strategy. Since only one random stat can spawn. Most purple are or would be the same as other purple armor.

Is it a good idea? Depends on what you value. The people who enjoy the game for farming super rare loot would dislike this change because only 1 random attribute would differentiate loot. People who want to reduce the impact of farming and let rarity be the be biggest factor would like this change.

Me personally I don’t have a strong opinion. But propbably leaning against it, since I know a lot of players like the loot farm aspect of the game.

[tame pewter]

also this is more about fixing low base damage attacks become about = with high base damage attacks bc of flat + damage bonuses

[dusty cargo]

I would argue that quick shot was mandatory, and the rest were situational. But you saying that you think you can run either quick shot or multi shot and then take a more situational one means that you think there is even more diversity than I do lol

[limber solstice]

It is similar...? Its different because Fighter basically has only 2 abilities to choose from, while as long as Ranger has at least Quick/Multi they all the others have some merit / viability so they can try things out and take them situationally.

Yeah I do. I never said Ranger can't use their abilities. I said that even if its kind of bad design that at least one instant reload is mandatory, at least the way it is now Ranger is free to experiment and take the other skills as they see fit.

[stray saffron]

i can only disagree there, flat damage and just stats wouldn't have made it as broken as the % based increases the modifiers added, tho same could be said about both of them being combined in the first place.

[tame pewter]

that true but I still stand by what i said about god rolls and uniqueness of items, I would agree with a smaller change like limited it to 1-2 major enchantments and 1-2 minor enchantments

[limber solstice]

I mean but you're just wrong mathematically unless you're getting into either extreme gear or Barbarian territory here. Flat damage is almost always better.

[dusty cargo]

Sprint just removes one of the classes main weaknesses, which sounded like it was your problem with the reloading perks, also quick fire is also an almost instant reload

[limber solstice]

UNLESS you need to get past negative mods

[tame pewter]

I don't understand this at all seeing as weapons base damage almost never pass 100 making flat bonuses better, and again this is more about fixing low base damage attacks become about = with high base damage attacks bc of flat + damage bonuses

[stray saffron]

flat damage is only better when percentage isn't included. a barb is a good example cause his +10 doesn't combat % based increases

[tame pewter]

a 50 damage attack getting boosted by +10 damage does 60 damage, but a 50 damage attack getting boosted by +10% damage does 55 damage. Idk what could be argued here

[limber solstice]

No idea what you're talking about. % Physical damage is good but you 1% damage increase below 100 damage on a weapon is literally less than 1 flat damage on a weapon, so you're mathematically wrong.

[pallid lichen]

I totally get that. Maybe this can be fixed by limiting the type of stats things can have, so physical defense and magic resistance is less likely to spawn on a battle axe. But strength can’t really spawn on n your legs?

[stray saffron]

but it wasn't just 1% increase was it? but in the end it just makes higher end gear stronger because the numbers are higher leading to flat damage needing an increase to keep up. only place where flat damage benefits is on low end gear

[limber solstice]

What classes besides Barbarian and Fighter can even realistically get a weapon to deal 100+ damage? Like even with the highest end gear in the game thats usually not going to happen. That doesn't mean % increase in damage type is bad, its just not as good as flat damage.

[pallid lichen]

Not really. Depends on the type of gear. Flat damage is better on daggers for example, because they attack faster and have lower base damage.

[tame pewter]

this highest possible damage on a war maul is 82 which is still less than 100, so no its not its not just low end gear

[limber solstice]

This also isn't even mentioning the fact that the only way you'll ever get over 100 flat damage in the first place is with flat damage stats on gear in the first place (or the Barb axe perk lmao).

[stray saffron]

but that's again an example of a gear with a low number. the real issue is stat and % based increases stacking far higher than they should

[tame pewter]

rng is not inherently bad in this case, what matters is the type of rng

[tame pewter]

this highest possible damage on a war maul is 82 which is still less than 100, so no its not its not just low end gear

[limber solstice]

But my friend you are literally just babbling incoherently. Unironically what are you talking about? "That's an example of gear with a low number". There is not a single weapon in this game, at any rarity, including unique, that hits 100 flat damage by itself. You realize that right?

[stray saffron]

yet people still easily hit double of that

[limber solstice]

Because they have damage modifiers including +65% damage for hitting you in the head lmao

[pallid lichen]

Maybe. But I think it will make different types of drops more desirable. If a barb can’t get strength off pants, what he would consider “good” pants would change into as “long as it’s purple it’s good enough” making purple pants without “strength” good. Also they would probably have other stats that they may want like agility.

[tame pewter]

i agree

[stray saffron]

oh...but weren't you arguing modifiers weren't an issue?

[limber solstice]

I don't even know what we're talking about lmao.

Ok, let's start with this. You need 100 flat damage on a weapon for % damage increase to be worth more than flat damage point for point. Agree or disagree?

[stray saffron]

it really happens alot

i agree but also disagree as it would depend on that % but yeah, both are needed in their own way, but it scaled too far of the charts

[pallid lichen]

Is that really an issue for things other then phys defense? Like are people really getting to 200% damage without legendary gear? I genuinely don’t know.

For example I think it should be possible to get to 150% damage with purple or legendary if you’re focused on it.

[stray saffron]

you mean people in purple and legendary aren't strong enough yet to 1-2 shot most people even in the same quality gear?

[limber solstice]

It doesn't depend on the % because I said point for point. 1 point of flat damage is more than 1% increase to damage when below 100 flat damage. Here is an example:
I have a double axe that deals 60 damage. It has + 3 physical damage and + 3 % physical damage increase. With just these numbers in mind, which gives your weapon more damage? The flat 3 damage right?

[tame pewter]

not without good enchantments or all head shots/high damage weapons

[lament willow]

if you know what you're doing, you don't need more than green gear with the right rolls to oneshot most things as barb wiz rogue or ranger
as fighter or cleric too, but you need slightly better rolls (as cleric it gets hard unless you go smite or bring a warmaul or factor judgement in as part of the oneshot)

[stray saffron]

besides the point there we're not talking about bad gear vs good gear. good gear vs good gear being 1-2 shotting eachother

[pallid lichen]

Maybe you’re idea could work. But maybe don’t limit to only one random stat maybe purple gear can have like 2 and stats and orange can have 3. And then combine this this with stats being limited for certain items , so not every item can get every stat, and I think that’s a pretty good system.

[lament willow]

rogue with right perks just pops out of hide and has like 350% damage with third swing of castel

the colour of gear is basically irrelevant for anything but weapons, the rolls on the gear are the only thing that matters

[stray saffron]

well yes but you don't see +60 physical damage while you could see a +60% right? like i said it's a combination of both the scaling for all classes end up too high compared to the health and armor there is

[tame pewter]

im just saying purple and legendarys aren't inherently good gear, good gear is good enchantments

[stray saffron]

yes but good enchantments shouldn't lead to instant kills either, that just means the balance between damage and health + armor is wrong

[lament willow]

'guaranteed stats' sounds awful. rng is the only thing saving this game from having a fixed oneshot meta to the moon

[tame pewter]

i agree with that 👍

[limber solstice]

No no, it doesn't matter what the amount of % damage increase you have. You could have 1000000000000% increase and it wouldn't matter. POINT FOR POINT, flat damage does more before the WEAPON DAMAGE hits 100. Doesn't even matter what % percent you have (except if its negative, then its better).

[pallid lichen]

What I like about it, is that it allows for build making to be more fleshed out. When you see someone with certain gear you can expect what type of strengths and weaknesses they have.

I feel like build making is only a thing that you do with starter gear, where the relative impact of bases stats is important, but the important of the inherent stats goes out the window the moment you start getting good loot.

[limber solstice]

Guaranteed stats don't make sense for classes like Rogue or Cleric though where you want both magic and phys stats

[stray saffron]

that's why i say there has to be a balance between them.

a good example with how it works now is a wizard perk...did you know that casting speed perk is already overruled by the increase knowledge perk? both give +10%, tho the knowledge increases the casting speed more than the casting speed does

[limber solstice]

If by balance you mean you need like 2-3 flat damage on your gear for every 1 point of % damage increase, sure, I agree.

[pallid lichen]

With his idea you can still get magic damage in rogue gear and physical damage on cleric gear.

I actually like his idea especially after we expanded on it

[limber solstice]

Mmk. Guaranteed stats could be ok if very minimal / weak but it could also make the game stale without randomness. Idc really im impartial.

[stray saffron]

yeah but guarantee just makes the rng pool smaller. the game is all about sometimes you're lucky, sometimes you're not. so hard pass on guarantees

[limber solstice]

There's nothing like the dopamine hit of looting a loaded players corpse and getting the jackpot of godrolls.

[somber wind]

@tame pewter I agree with like half of your suggestion, in that I agree with the problems and some of your solutions but I feel like flat number increases should still exist but I think a better way to nerf it without removing it would be that damage bonuses as a whole shouldn't be available on anything other than Weapons, Amulets and Rings. It'll lower the cap. When it comes to Damage Resist % I feel like that shouldn't be available on Weapons (which also would make Shields a little more desirable over 2 handed weapons for some builds adding more variety) and the max roll for the effect itself should be lowered to mitigate that ability for things like 95% when stacked.

[pallid lichen]

Yeah I was impartial too but then he convinced me. And we fleshed out the idea more so now I’m a fan. The biggest upside of the idea being making builds and gear stats identifiable from armor type

[pallid lichen]

I think you can still have room for bad rolls with this system. But the system makes the color of gear a little more relevant to stats.

[tame pewter]

I think this is all fair and I don't really disagree, but I don't see the need to keep these stats if they do almost the exact same things as other stats, in this case armor rating and % damage bonuses

they just do it better and in a way that causes problems

[pallid lichen]

Imagine some gauntlets that rogues have access to that had a little bit of extra magic damage. Could be really cool.

[stray saffron]

well yeah you can still have a bad roll on it, but it's just always atleast something good, to me that just sounds like "make it easier to find good stuff" which i firmly disagree to

[pallid lichen]

But if u see a rogue wearing it you basically know it’s a poison build

Creating a new skill cap to the game of identifying builds based on armors, (not as much of a thing rn)

[tame pewter]

I really enjoy that every kit is unique and is built out of what you can find/buy in the market

[somber wind]

I do understand your reasoning for wanting to simplify it, however flat stat bonuses feel more impactful in that it's more understandable. +2% Damage doesn't feel like anything but +2 Damage even if it's the same outcome (If 2% would be 2 Damage) feels more impactful. It may be harder to balance but for the feeling for the end player makes it important to maintain.

Oh and I personally don't mind rarity meaning a little less unless you get a great roll taking advantage of the additional modifier/enchantment but I do see the reason that it'd be nice to have it matter more so I feel like base Agility should be lowered across the board for nakeds as well as lowering Armor's movement speed reduction (but more than the amount of agility lowered so in the end it becomes preferable to wear armor because you're not so much faster without armor due to the smaller gap and that getting modifiers that increase your speed would be preferable due to the undesirable base movement speed). @tame pewter

[mighty willow]

They dont feel more impactful because they are more understandable, they feel better cause they are (basically nothing reaches 100+dmg)

[somber wind]

I'm saying a 100 Damage weapon with +2% damage feels worse than a 100 Damage weapon with +2 Damage. I'm saying in equal situations.

I clarified that in it.

[tame pewter]

I don't see how it should feel any different, they both just say "more damage" the only difference is the intricacies of how its applied. Also i completely agree with your take on agility and movespeed, I just didn't put that in my suggestion because I wanted it to be as simple as possible and focus on one thing

[limber solstice]

....but theyre the same

[stray saffron]

they want to make it easier to overlook without you having to pull out a calculator

[somber wind]

That's my point

[limber solstice]

lol ok

[pallid lichen]

We’ll it’s not necessarily “easy” to find purples. But I get where you’re coming from there.

But I think you’re Seeing it wrong. If you really think about it this idea doesn’t make any individual roll better or worse, it just makes it so that one of the stats on the roll is tied to the item type itself.

That’s the biggest actual part of the change. Allowing people to predict what stats/ build you have based off looking at you sounds really high skill cap and fun.

[somber wind]

My point is perceived worth vs. actual worth and people perceive flat damage increase as more worth than percentage even when it's not true both when it's the same and even when it's worse if they don't pop out a calculator.

[tame pewter]

but if % based damage is the only damage increasing stat you just take the higher number in the category you need, you dont need to know the exact amount it increases your damage

[somber wind]

Oh 100% there's nothing different about it, it's just perception.

People understand flat numbers instantly so it causes more of a visceral reaction to it.

[tame pewter]

Then shouldn't it be better to limit you to only % based damage increases so people always take the higher number which would be the best option instead of confusing people into often taking a worse option unless they use a calculator

[somber wind]

Well in that situation it less becomes excitement and just "number go up" mindset for the roll which isn't exactly that enjoyable.

If you don't think about the increase itself it diminishes the excitement.

It's similar to how things like Small World and Linear Equation Cannon in Yugioh are used sparsely even though they're amazing because people don't immediately understand them. It's not that they're not used but very few people get excited about their implications.

[stray saffron]

but doesn't it also take the mystery away of not knowing what the class has, just more rats going "oh can't counter, i'm out" and in the end classes would end up picking one gear over the other just cause one playstyle would make them stronger alot easier.

so that's why i'm still no on anything that's a guarantee

[somber wind]

Perception of power is just as important as actual power. Games like Doom Eternal and Skyrim are great examples of this. In Doom Eternal you're really not THAT strong but you perceive yourself as powerful. Skyrim you ARE powerful but you don't feel powerful.

[stray saffron]

sorry if you misunderstood me there, what i meant was so that even tho it increases in % that they get to see what effect exactly it does. like perhaps a flat number to show "this is your damage"

[tame pewter]

I don't think deciding between % damage and flat damage is that exciting and you still have to decide between damage and other things like strength/armor/will/buff duration/etc in situations like "do i need strength here or just damage?" or "should i get more damage or more will?" I think that is way more exciting then figuring out what damage bonus is better.

[somber wind]

This is all end user experience stuff and less balancing but I don't want to sacrifice end user experience just for balance if there is an alternative way to induce balance without harming the EUE.

[pallid lichen]

We’ll balancing the gear Would be a separate issue. But I don’t think it’s a bad thing to allow people to choose their battles better? That’s sounds like part of good gameplay

[somber wind]

Oh and figuring out between is also enjoyable, but immediate impact is important as well and although the player knows Strength is more damage most people don't initially know what the actual difference between +1 and +2 Strength is they just know its better and it's a core stat so it's impactful but when it's percentages it can feel less impactful because it's not a flat number and it obfuscates things like that further.

[stray saffron]

i think it would give them too much information about someone else, it's like prior knowing they carry a named unique. and instead of having to balance the individual gears it's more fun that in the end the gear can stay the same but the way you play differently.

[somber wind]

It's the difference between a Punch that does 100 damage and an Explosion that does 100 damage to an enemy with 1000 HP. They are both as powerful but the Explosion FEELS more powerful so they feel like they're doing more where the other attack makes the enemy feel like a damage sponge even if they aren't.

[pallid lichen]

I’m actually down for uniques being identifiable visually once they have the time to work on that.

[somber wind]

In the end this is all the awkwardness of EUE and I'm just trying to preserve that while not jeopardizing what you're trying to accomplish either. An example of a middleground we experienced that was all EUE is Solo mode being Goblin cave and not just a Solo queue; players disliked the idea of Solo mode because it's just the same game with less enemies but when you change the scenario to be more contoured to the idea it becomes less offensive to the player. In this it's instead of lowering offensiveness it's about increasing/maintaining impact of the stat @tame pewter

[stray saffron]

i mean i'm sorta down for the armor and weapon getting fancier GoW style the higher quality, but i don't at all want to know stats based on visuals

[raw belfry]

The second you bring up cosmetic in any way shape or form, people start complaining about "spiderman casting spells at you while he flosses over your corpse."
I am all for having paid for cosmetics that can applied that DONT denote your current gear level. It wouldnt be about hiding anything either as purples look the same as commons anyways.

[dusty cargo]

Quiver system version v0.5

- Bow weapons fire a limited number of arrows before they must reload their quiver.

- The number of arrows in the quiver is based on the type of bow that is equipped.

- The Ranger’s attack-based skills have the added bonus of auto-reloading their quiver upon activation.```

[raw belfry]

I am always supportive of ways a GOOD game can bring about my cash flow, and maintain funding for upkeep etc

[floral bison]

I want legendaries to have their own art like REALLY bad.

[tame pewter]

put that as a suggestion

[dusty cargo]

Uniques yes, legendaries no

[wanton lintel]

In general, you should interpret ideas in their highest form. Doing the opposite is effectively a strawman. Charitable interpretations are polite.

[floral bison]

Yea mb I mean the named guys.

[stray saffron]

ah no i actually meant like a physical quiver been mentioned before.

but that makes my point more valid as the ranger skills are essentially a reload

[rocky oar]

Unique Named already have unique looks

[wanton lintel]

Similar games handled the ambiguous-class cosmetics by only make class-specific cosmetics.

[floral bison]

Do they when you're swinging them around? I thought they just looked like their unnamed counterparts

[dusty cargo]

I was trying to figure out if it had been mentioned by the Devs at all, because the only time I remember them talking about a quiver was this change.

[stray saffron]

well yeah i get that, it's just subtle little things that are more visually pleasing but people don't really see unless they're close enough to actually get smacked in the head.

[rocky oar]

Look it up ma guy, there are a bunch of videos of the weapons in game

[white cliff]

They have special effects. Cinder is a named unique Halberd that is imbued with flames. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EVAzZDoFtnY&t=235s Cinder Gameplay

[floral bison]

Appreciate it, Yea and they do look subtly different in their frames as well. I guess I'm just more used to exaggerated forms of uniques from years of RPGs

[white cliff]

I was thinking the same thing, I actually cooked up some fan art today of a legendary morning star, I ended up posting it in cleric chat though.

#cleric message

[floral bison]

Can't see that cuz i'm not assigned to Cleric.

[white cliff]

#1026916693806686208

[floral bison]

Yeas but i don't wanna be a cleric

[white cliff]

It's just a role that gives you access to a class chat lol, you can click it again to take it off; or have multiple on at a time.

[floral bison]

I'm a boomer leave me be lol

[pallid lichen]

Hey @tame pewter I like a lot of the ideas in your suggestion but. I think instead of removing all the flat bonuses instead for true damage like you said. They should just do what someone else suggested and limit the damage bonus attributes to weapons and jewelry.

[tame pewter]

I completely support that, but they also could do both

[pallid lichen]

Just don’t think it’s necessary. And also flat bonuses are nice on some builds. And I don’t think they are inherently Op.

As long as you can’t stack it on everything

[tame pewter]

they are nice on every build and are for the most part just better than % based damage so it doesn't take any of the decision making away from the game if they are removed

[somber wind]

If % bonuses were applied AFTER all other modifiers they would become better

could also make them incompatible with eachother

[pallid lichen]

Hmm, it’s usually better. Then maybe a slight buff to the average %damage stat instead. So it becomes definitely better for some builds and definitively worse for other builds

[somber wind]

So if you wanted to make the most of it you could use both, just 1 on 1 item and 1 on another.

[tame pewter]

there are plenty of other fixes, but I just think this is the simplest, addresses many problems, and gets the least push back

[floral bison]

I believe that is how it's calculated to begin with.

[somber wind]

When it comes to initial pushback from the community, we're in pre-early access so it doesn't matter too much what the community feels on it just now. Any nerf is going to have some pushback even if it ends up being a better situation.

[pallid lichen]

I just feel like getting rid of a ton of enchantments is needlessly controversial. Even though objectively it may not effect much as you say. But It would make poison builds for rogues to totally unviable.

[tame pewter]

why is that?

[pallid lichen]

Because flat damage stacks with poison way better then %

[tame pewter]

oh yea i think thats a whole other problem, poison scales way to hard

[somber wind]

I'll be honest, I'm also a proponent of adding MORE enchantments. That said the pool is abit saturated and having different enchantment pools would be ideal. I suggested this before by having items that reroll item's effects with new enchantment pools that aren't normally found on droppables but there is likely better alternatives like certain enemies providing certain enchantment pools or each dungeon having it's own enchantment pools.

[pallid lichen]

Honestly it’s not a horrible idea. Because will could still scale with poison even after getting rid of magic damage. But I do think it’s needlessly controversial. I wouldn’t be mad about that change at all. But you can achieve the same effect in less controversial ways

[tame pewter]

I would think that simplifying enchantments and removing redundancies wouldnt be controversial

[floral bison]

Given the nature of randomly spawning into a rotating dungeon layout, we don't want to incentivise ALT-F4ing out of raids. I do like different enchants being more or less prevalent of different monsters however, that would be cool. There would need to be a wider selection of monsters for me to make that viable though.

[pallid lichen]

You would think. But honestly people like the mysterious mess of numbers.

[somber wind]

When I said Dungeons I didn't mean the variants I ment like how there's the Goblin Dungeon and the Castle Dungeon; if there was more we could have more Dungeons with different enchantment pools. We also know we'll be getting more.

It being tied to monsters could indirectly tie it to dungeons as well however.

So for example those Demons we saw in the datamine could have their own pools but they're not likely to show up in the current Dungeons we have like how Goblins aren't in the Castle Dungeon so that could make it more dungeon specific.

[limber solstice]

I don't think thats necessarilly true. You have negative magic damage modifier until you reach 15 Will worth of magic damage increase (0%) so I think its weaker if you get % magic damage but if you get Will its better than flat until you get to 15.

Also they made it so true magic damage doesn't work on Rogue poison since playtest 4 I believe.

[pallid lichen]

I know true magic doesn’t work, but I’m pretty sure a high will build , or + magic damage build is better for poison then percentages

[leaden tide]

#d-and-d-suggestions message

vote for it boys, more balanced gear system than we have now where everyone runs greens that are better than legendary gear. Gear disparity also wont be as bad since half the playerbase will no longer be geared in BiS gear and will actually need to grind purples and legendaries instead. Thus your average players wont be stomping everyone with white/grey gear anymore as easily

[sudden glacier]

I never seen a green better than a legendary, maybe blue but I get your point stats should be nerfed in lower quality

[leaden tide]

I have seen legendary gear with terrible stats for my specific class

obviously, this particular change wouldn't fix the fact that a piece for fighter can come with magic related stats but yea, I've seen A LOT of real bad purples adn a lot of godlike greens

[pallid lichen]

cringe or cool?

New Skill For Rogue: Rat Pet

If the rat is used on the floor, it will stand watch as a recon returning to the rogue after 30 seconds, or if the ability button is pressed again. If enemies get close to the rat while it's standing watch, the rat will return to the rogue prematurely and make a distinct noise when it comes back.

Rats can also be used to interact with far away interactibles such as:

• non-locked containers to bring one small item from it.
• Can be used on enemies to pickpocket one small item from them.
• Dead teammates to grab their Soul.(Team play for rogue?? No way)
  (maybe they can poison shit but idk)

Rats move very fast are quiet and are a dark color making them hard to spot. But they stand still for a couple of seconds near the object they are interacting with. And they can be killed. Letting the killer loot the rat for whatever item it stole.

The cooldown of the rat is short (15 seconds) but only restarts when the rat returns to the user. The cooldown is doubled if the rat is killed.

[leaden tide]

This leads to a large portion of population being overpowered due to greens being common
instead of only purples having that effect

[sudden glacier]

yeah they should nerf it a little not to much, I like that a green can be a decent weapon

but it shouldnt be better than a purple

[leaden tide]

yep same, but stats on it should be capped lower and/or lower % of higher rolls on them. This will lead to the possibility of still having godlike green but at a much lower chance

[sudden glacier]

agree

[peak ermine]

I think it’s funny that they’re trying to

1. Have a loot system from traditionally PvE rpgs

2. Try and balance it for PvP

Either they try and ‘balance’ the game or say duck it and let it rip

[sudden glacier]

maybe the new rogue perk could have antihealing in order to be more effective as a teammate it could be something like target affected heals 50% less for 30sec

[leaden tide]

they doing a pretty good job

in terms of balancing tbh. Most of the current issues are pretty simple to fix too

@lusty flame @ashen badge can you explain why the suggestion is bad? Just looking for feedback

Gotcha makes sense

I think including both systems I mentioned would achieve that effect (As in stat caps based on gear rarity AND higher % of getting better rolls on higher rarity) so it would be more likely for purple gear to get 3 weapon damage (which is the cap for green gear) than it would be for green gear to get the 3 weapon damage (since it would have a lower % since that's the best possible roll).

But yea, it was just a more basic suggestion to improve current system, would definitely need more tweaks afterwards

[lusty flame]

dont @ me

[gray vessel]

Cringe. Automation of any kind in 3D pvp games always almost always* ends up diminishing the game. There are plenty of 2D games that do it well, and non pvp games that do it well. But beyond that I personally think 3D pvp games can't work with any forms of automation.

[sudden glacier]

for what I seen they should nerf barbarian perk axe specialisation( +10 base damage to all axes) this is a problem with francisca axe, you can abuse them and they deal crazy damage, zap is another big problem, when you have the right gear you can one-shot or twoshot people and the hitbox is huge, also buffs from mages and clerics should be nerfed a little, My suggestion is that they should reduce the buff duration when it isn't casted on yourself and cleric could have a perk that increases the buffs duration to the normal state, barb cleric wiz is so op they just buff the barb with haste, invis, shield and strength and the barbs oneshot everyone and is also unkillable

what do you guys not agree with my suggestion?

[pallid lichen]

automation?

[pallid lichen]

the rat perk?

[floral bison]

No, not particularly. Barbs are really strong but attack very slowly. Although I DO agree that the Francisca axe is a problem. It needs to be coded as JUST a projectile, not as an axe. Same goes for any throwable.

[leaden tide]

^

Nonetheless, invis needs to be self buff only and haste another nerf (probably)

[floral bison]

I think Haste is fine, invis I'm 50/50. I think self buff is a good idea, and someone suggested removing it's MS increase, which i also agree with. For 3 seconds, while invis the Wizard becomes the single fastest class in the game.

[amber solstice]

I really think the problem is how fast you can machine gun them out. Top fighters also use them similarly, the average fighter just uses a bow instead so they dont have to pay 200 extra gold per game and lose 1/3rd of their inventory and aren't as good at being buffballed like the barb. Barbs don't really have any options beside having a pocket wizard. There should just be a longer delay between throws because nerfing the damage just encourages them to carry more.

[leaden tide]

I think thats fine though, they're trading inventory slots AND gold for being able to throw axes, plus if axes don't 2-3 hit kill anymore that's a big W as it also means they'll have to throw even more

[floral bison]

I'm okay with them wasting their inventory on something that gives a person longer to live, and potentially outplay a barb. Still though, the axe perk should not apply to projectiles, and that goes for ALL thrown util items, rogue throwing knife included.

[pallid lichen]

the dageer expert perk is like 5% damage think its fine

honnestly if they nerf the axe perk to +5 damage were good.

[floral bison]

I don't agree, my opinion is that the Ranger should have a majority advantage when it comes to utilising ranged kit. All other classes should have it as utility, but not skills, perks or spells that boost their effectiveness.

[amber solstice]

2-3 axes to 3-4 axes really doesn't change much. Once you hit the first one, it gets way easier to hit future ones because you can throw them so fast. I think removing +10 to axes doesn't change how the fights play out. Having them be thrown 2-3x slower makes the throw and the dodge much more meaningful.

[pallid lichen]

depends by how much doesnt it. as long as they arent more effective then ranger i think its fine.

[floral bison]

And that's where I think we can all agree that the Francisca is a problem in that regard. I think that the thrown knife is also too effective, and if I remember correctly it can apply your poison? That's too effective, too much kit in a class that isn't dedicated to ranged attacks.

[tame pewter]

You are 100% right about the axe perk barb players are just mad. The nerf btw is obviously to switch the flat +10 damage to a % based damage buff cause that fixes half the problems in the game.

[tame pewter]

+5%%%%%%%%%%%% damage and yes. Why does the barb get a flat damage buff is makes no sense.

[pallid lichen]

the posion thing is only situatuionally broken becasue u can stack so much magic damage in a kit. if they fix that problem, then poison daggers would be less effective. but without posin dagger focus (most of the time) i dont think its like some super effective thing.

[pallid lichen]

na +5 damage is fine. barb i supposed to be strong. in my opnion they should buff dagger expert to be like +10% damage. most the expert skills are preety underpowered

[leaden tide]

what the game needs is less damage stacking not more lol dagger expert is fine and axe perk needs a nerf or just removed from throwing axes

[floral bison]

I agree on that, burn has the same issue with it's magic scaling. I'm still of the belief that no util items should benefit from a class perk, skill or spell.

[pallid lichen]

i agree on that. but there is other ways to achive that without nerfing a already not OP perk to the ground.

[tame pewter]

ok fine +10%%%% damage for both. It makes no reasonable sense for the barbs expert perk to be flat damage at all. Especially consider the throwing axe.

[leaden tide]

how is it not op, it's the only class with a perk that adds that much damage, no other class gets close iirc

[amber solstice]

Because they didnt think barbs would evolve into throw barbs. They are the slowest moving, slowest swinging, and shield less. They are supposed to be brutally punishing if they hit you.

[pallid lichen]

i wouldnt mind that. but i like diversity a little too.

they can either nerf the damage of the francescas a little. nerf the axe expert perk, or make axe expert perk % based. either way all the 5 % perks need a buff.

[tame pewter]

they have by far the highest damage. they have great armor that doesnt often weigh them down and an ability for speed so no they are not the slowest, they have the felling axe and horseman's axe so no they are not the slowest swinging, and shields suck. They could live with % damage on their expert perk

[pallid lichen]

i disagree with the last part. its a cool feature to have as long as you do it with moderation. i like that people can try to focus on utils if they would like as long as its not OP.

[thorny shadow]

Idk why spectating as a small rat is such a hated suggestion XD
Itd be so funny

[dusty cargo]

imagine complaining about barb lol

[floral bison]

I think it stems from people being little shits. I know if I was a rat, I'd lead people into traps, other groups and all sorts of bad. Other than that, I think the idea is great.

[thorny shadow]

Itd just be fun to just run around as a lil guy doing no wrong and affecting noone

[floral bison]

take that to #the-tavern or literally anywhere but here. This is a chat for discussing the suggestions and forming more. Form a constructive opinion or just lurk.

[atomic mountain]

5% is trash af, would cut the legs off the perk entirely

[amber solstice]

The point I was trying to make is that 5% vs +10 will not make a difference. You occasionally might eat one extra throwing axe. The problem is the functionality of the throwing axe itself and the lack of any other option for barbs to combat being kited or evaded beside having a pocket wizard.

[pallid lichen]

i like that one idea of cheaters having to play as a rat lmao. and it would work great with the rat spectator system. (as long as rats have no collision box, and they could be killed)

[thorny shadow]

I like the convo that happened the other day about putting red karma people into the same matches

[floral bison]

I think this one is the better suggestion IMO. Then you can know you can never trust a rat, which I like. And just seeing them scurry is a fun concept.

[atomic mountain]

5% would be less than 2 dmg for the starting gear axe. Trash perk at that point

[leaden tide]

Why would you not, it's not super strong if solo but with a wizard its the strongest class in the game lol

[tame pewter]

gray francisca axes do 20 damage. with a +10 damage perk that is 30 damage. With a +10% damage perk that is 22. The difference is pretty clear

[pallid lichen]

Also speaking of rats. any thoughts on my rat pet idea for rogue? (could use the same assets as the rat from the other ideas, making it save developer resources.)

#rogue message

[atomic mountain]

No pets. Dark and Darker Hunter Rise sounds really lame for 3v3 team fights

[tame pewter]

I only said +5% because +5 was suggested and also because every other class is +5%. But people like barb having special treatment so +10% damage is also perfectly fine

[dusty cargo]

No, the Wizard and Cleric are by far the strongest classes in the game, Barb is nothing without buffs from both of those classes, but it is the best vehicle for those buffs

[pallid lichen]

intresting idea, but honestly not neccessary i like the mix of untrustworth and trustworthy people. makes things more unpredictable.

[amber solstice]

You do realize that gear effects damage? I was hitting 130+ headshots on the training dummy with francescas. You arent getting whittled down or 2 shot by 30 damage francescas.

[dusty cargo]

You don’t nerf Barb because the cleric and wizard buffs are too strong

[pallid lichen]

hunter rise?

[tame pewter]

you are right but barb is a clear 3rd and at low level gear is 1st

[leaden tide]

Barbs kill wizards, rangers and rogues with 2-3 throwing axes. 1 shot literally any class in the game if they get close enough besides other barbs/fighters. They're strong even without buffs.

If your team has a barb and the enemy doesn't then you are guaranteed either a free win or guaranteed to freely back off because the enemy can't push you at all

[atomic mountain]

It's a goofy JRPG that has 2 pets per player, and they attack and have field effects. It's dogwater

[pallid lichen]

that sounds boring but that sounds nothing like my idea. did you read it lol?

[dusty cargo]

Not really, the other classes are pretty well balanced with each each other, Barb is only meta because it is the best at utilizing the buffs from the two overturned classes

[pallid lichen]

does everyone agree that all the terrible 5% perks should be 10%

[leaden tide]

no. The game doesn't need more damage, it needs less of it TTK is already super fast

[pallid lichen]

do you really think that stems from the 5% perks and not the overstackign of damage attributes that can be solved in 50 different ways

[leaden tide]

and the only class that doesn't take the 5% perks is literally rogue because its a must have for rangers and barbarians(+10 axe dmg)

[sudden glacier]

francisca axes should be nerfed anyway makes no sense dealing more damage than an arrow and also faster

[tame pewter]

no barb is better because they have better weapons, perks and abilities than the others

just compare fighter perks to barb. They is a clear winner and its not close, barbs 5th best perk is better than fighters 2nd best.

[pallid lichen]

people are that desperate for 5% more damage?

[leaden tide]

yep, its a good perk. It's only bad for rogue because of low base damage on daggers. Which is fine because rogue damage is already absolutely insane anyways

[dusty cargo]

Barbs never get in range of wizards, rangers and rogues even with Franciscas. Those classes have so much more mobility than a barb can choose when they want to deal with a barb. And barb has the most linear gameplay pattern, it’s really easy to play around.

[leaden tide]

I'd take a barbarian with 0 buffs over a fighter or rogue any day every day in a 3v3 team

[pallid lichen]

i just feel like all perks should be worth your while. its just kinda wierd to have blacksheep perks that have 0 usefullness

[tame pewter]

for sure

[sudden glacier]

same why would you even pick a fighter having barb as an option they loot faster, tank more, deal more damage

[leaden tide]

it has usefulness, 5% of a 25 damage dagger is 1.5 damage extra. If your dagger has 32 damage it's 2 extra damage. Not that bad

[dusty cargo]

Fighter is gear dependent but has access to far better weapons than barb does. Barb has felling and horseman’s axe, fighter has halberd, long sword, spear, any bow, and pavise (if playing with squads). Plus fighters get so much tankier than barbs can with their armor options and perks

[pallid lichen]

thats actually awful. why would i ever take that over poison weapon. over any perk for that matter? pickpocket is looking kinda good now

[leaden tide]

what are the 4 perks ur running

[faint dirge]

What does pickpocket do now?

[dusty cargo]

Fighter is definitely way strong than Barb in a no buff team comp, and rogue is difficult to utilize in a team, but a geared and skilled rogue is extremely difficult to deal with because if you ignore them for a second you will die, and they can avoid any fight that doesn’t favor them

[tame pewter]

armor in this game is clearly not as strong as it should be, also felling and horseman's axe are better than any fighter weapon

[pallid lichen]

depends how tryhard im going. if maximizing deadlyness, i rather take ambush,backstab, silent footsteps, and posion weapon. that dagger expert perk is useless AND totally unfun. like atleast pickpocket is fun lol

[dusty cargo]

Fighter with a bow allows you to get a ton of chip damage before the fight gets to melee range, and then in melee range, the fighter is extremely tanky

[faint dirge]

What got changed i meant, bcs as far as i know its still dog

[leaden tide]

the only thing a fighter does better than barb is being tankier, other than that it's a literal downgrade to barbarian. Less damage, less HP (which is MASSIVE since armor is dog shit in this game anyways) less damage with throwing axes which are meta RN. Can't push vs a barbarian because you'll lose too.

Barbarians are just overall better

[atomic mountain]

Sounds underwhelming af. Perks shouldn't be underwhelming. Especially if the change to gear stat rolls you suggested comes to pass (I agree with that latter change btw so dont flame me)

[pallid lichen]

nothing changed lol. isaid its looking good when i compare it to dagger expert lol. as a joke

[leaden tide]

It is underwhelming but literally every other perk they have is already super strong for their purpose lol

[faint dirge]

Then it still looks bad, maybe early game but later on the dagger expert is not as abd

[dusty cargo]

Felling axe has extremely short range, extremely easy to parry with a longsword and has a long recovery time if the swing misses. Horseman’s axe loses hard to the range of any of the fighter weapons i named

[atomic mountain]

That's fair #IronWIll

[tame pewter]

100% true and being tankier is arguable less important than anyone of those things

[pallid lichen]

even with a 40 damage dagger all it does is add 4 damage compared to poison weapon wich does 5 damage no matter how strong your dagger is. and also poison weapon diversifies your damage making it good agsint armor

[leaden tide]

Use a 30 damage dagger with ambush + backstab + headshot + weak point and your 1 stab deals literally 100 damage
not even counting the poison damage from the poison perk

[faint dirge]

Well 40 damage is low especially when you head shot and the poison needs time do deal damage

[dusty cargo]

Wrong, fighter also plays at range better, has much better long range melee weapons (war mail and barb sword are wayyyyyyy worse than halberd, spear, and longsword), fighter can also use pavise which can be really strong situational in team fights, they are a jack of all trades

[pallid lichen]

@leaden tide thats a horrible argument though.

[tame pewter]

why?

[pallid lichen]

you can use how OP one perk is to argue for keeping another perk underpowered. its just illogical. different perks should be evenly balanced right?

[amber solstice]

Fighters have access to ranged weapons. They have access to longer ranged melee and the only weapon with riposte. They can get 95% physical damage reduction, they are also naturally faster than the barb in the same gear, having the option of 20% damage from victory rush to use on their poke from range, or second wind to effectively have 50% more health in a fight that they get back from campfires. Watch some Orlanthi vods.

[pallid lichen]

ireplied to the wrong person sorry

[tame pewter]

ok cool lol

[pallid lichen]

was meant for steelhard

[granite plinth]

what do u lot think about shield thing i suggested

[dusty cargo]

Makes sense, he backpedals away from barb and thinks there’s no counterplay xD (i kid, i kid)

[tame pewter]

and their perks and dont even do a third of what barbs do

[dusty cargo]

At base, not at all, but they scale well with gear, and fighters have the best gear

Other than maybe rogues, rogues also scale crazy with gear. I’m ignoring wizard and cleric because those classes are crazy, but they also scale well with gear

[granite plinth]

what do u lot thing about the change to shield

[tame pewter]

its cool

[pallid lichen]

dude link it

[leaden tide]

Felling axe is the meta since its basically always a guaranteed headshot anyways. Long reach in melee is also very overhyped, it is helpful in certain situations but in a fight the barb will just get on top of you and you can't do anything about it because if u want to attack him you need to be facing him, so even if you backpedal you're still far slower than the barb moving forward towards you.

Also all those weapons aside from spear are much harder to get headshots. The 95% physical damage reduction is also a meme and requires you to run shield + your fighter would get nuked out of this planet the moment he goes through a chokepoint if the enemy team has a wizard (since to get the 95% physical damage reduction you have negative magical resistance)

You can try and prove me wrong all you want but fighters haven't been meta since play test 1 and that was only because it was the most simple class to play when everyone was new to the game.

There's a reason why there's barely any fighters being used in the HR lobbies in this playtest

[granite plinth]

how do u link?

[amber solstice]

Do you want just 1 class with 4 perks and 2 skills available so everyone is exactly the same?
More versatility and more advantages generally means weaker perks, hence the fighter. If you give them the same quality of perks as classes that have more disadvantages, there is no reason to play anything else.

[tame pewter]

look at what steelhard just said, its not just the perks. With no perks they are comparable but with perks its not close

[pallid lichen]

95% defence thing isnt OP but its still bad for the game. everything else u say seems reasonable.

[leaden tide]

If you want to prevent people from pushing you then you use a barbarian at the corners of a choke point and ranger traps.

If you want to push you use wizard haste on barbarian since it's simply more effective than using it on a fighter.

If you want to kill people from range you use ranger and wizard.

Fighter has versatility but is simply not the best at anything it does

[pallid lichen]

fighter can tank the most

[dusty cargo]

Tons of fighters represented at the top of HR, Barbs only dominated the killer outlaw board and that’s because the meta was cleric wizard. Barb has to be so close to hit with felling axe that you can backpedal, hit with any long range weapon, the barb will try to swing while he is slowed by the hit, and you can just keep hitting him while he can’t get in range. It’s a bit of a different story only if the barb is getting haste, invis, bless, etc

[leaden tide]

can they though? They have 100 HP and even with a full plate armor they get like +40% physical damage reduction or something if you don't have any physical damage reduction stats in your equipments.

That's 140 HP basically.

Barbarians have 130 HP default without armor lol

[tame pewter]

also i havent even mentioned the huge gap in base skills. fighter skills are 15 strength, agility and will. Barbs are 30 strength, 11 agility and 18 will. they have slightly less agility and better everything else

[tame pewter]

and they have the ability to lower damage dealt by 25%

[leaden tide]

Fantasy world. That doesn't happen, ever. You will not outrun a barbarian moving forward while backpedalling lol

[dusty cargo]

Never happening with my squad who all ended top 10 on our classes, ranger, fighter, barb

[pallid lichen]

full plate armor is only 40% armor? thought it was more.

also your math seems off

[tame pewter]

damn you that good and never heard of a francisca axe?

[leaden tide]

Think so from what I recall. Armor is just bad in the game, thats why most classes run naked unless really good extra stats lol

[tame pewter]

shitty plate armor is only 30%

[dusty cargo]

Franciscas were pretty easy to dodge

[leaden tide]

Show me a clip of abarbarian running into you and you only backpedalling and never reaching you

[pallid lichen]

40% armor would be like 180 health. or something like that.

[leaden tide]

yea but we're comparing to a barbarian with 0 armor. They also get pretty good armor stats

[tame pewter]

pretty good armor that still allows for a lot of move speed

[dusty cargo]

I don’t have an extremely niche clip off-hand, darn i guess i lose the argument. The entire point is that you are hitting him from outside of his range, and that slow, combined with the slow from him trying to swing prevents him from landing the hit

[pallid lichen]

either way fighter is definitely tankier to physiscal damage.

[leaden tide]

^ Plus a pretty good class for chasing now with quarter staff and breaking down door

[leaden tide]

well yea if hes swinging empty air ofc he will never hit you. But anyone who has experience in the game knwos when to and when not to swing. Aside from players actually dodging with movement skills there's not much to it, that's just skill gap not class or weapon gap

[tame pewter]

are they? barb has way more hp and a 25% damage reduction. Fighter is still probably tankier especially at high gear, but its not by much. Like 1 hit at best

[leaden tide]

If they are it's very very marginally. the extra 30 base HP is massive

[stray saffron]

don't forget barb has AP

[tame pewter]

we havent even gotten to that lol

[pallid lichen]

i think they should make the actual armor stats more important, consider removing the physical damage reduction enchantment. so that plate armor can actually do its job without being too close to invincible

[dusty cargo]

You can be literally colliding with the fighters model when you start the swing, and the fighter can walk out of the range while the barb is swinging his felling axe and slowed from a longer range melee attack

[faint dirge]

Fighter is way tankier vs ranger, whos currently played more often in comparison to wizard, which makes him tankier most of the times, but when we see ppl getting better barb will be tankier bcs i think we will see a big shift towards wizard

[tame pewter]

I made a whole 3 paragraph suggestion on this exact thing

[leaden tide]

That's true, the only advantage fighter has over barbarian is the fact that it's tankier vs rangers.
At the expense of also being slower

[faint dirge]

If you dodge / block the armor pen attack vs barb and rogue he is tanky af, but if they hit you your swiss cheese

[turbid ermine]

And been less tanky versus mages*

[dusty cargo]

Barb does get eaten alive by rangers and wizards, but honestly it’s not worth talking about the wizards and clerics because they are just so much stronger

[tame pewter]

but wizard is better than ranger and fighters are far more weak to wizards then barbs are to archers

[faint dirge]

I wouldnt say slower, they have speed ability and dont have to swing 2 hours while being slowed

[leaden tide]

wizards have been so blatantly broken every single playtest the class needs a rework idk

[tame pewter]

nah just a nerf is fine. The class is really fun

[leaden tide]

in terms of movement speed they're slower unless fighter pops the movement speed skill that's what I meant

[faint dirge]

Also fighters are far more stong against ranger than barbs are vs mages

[stray saffron]

nah not even a nerf is needed, just need magic defence rework

[tame pewter]

barbs have 100 magic resist in a perk and 18 will. So imma disagree

[pallid lichen]

replace + physical damage resistance % enchantment with + armor rating enchantment. and buff armors

[faint dirge]

Vs top gear fighter you need around 60 body hits as a ranger with a recurve bow, a bit less probably 45

[tame pewter]

and buff armor on top of it

[dusty cargo]

Barbs and Fighters both get destroyed by wizards, fighters are pretty damn good into rangers while barbs just get eaten alive.

[leaden tide]

there is a armor rating enchanting already, it's just useless

[tame pewter]

its useless bc it needs a buff, and damage resist is better

[dusty cargo]

I would much rather have a shield/pavise vs a wizard than 100 mr

[pallid lichen]

really? mustve forgot about it

[turbid ermine]

Barb has the 1 perk for magic res.

[leaden tide]

yep. Gear needs big changes before early access imo. Naked meta is not healthy

[turbid ermine]

The dps scaling meta isn't either, the same tier of gear should never 1 shot each other

[leaden tide]

yea all of it probably gets fixed with a armor rework
question is, how do you rework armor without overtuning abrbarians and fighters

[dusty cargo]

It doesn’t do nearly enough, barbs can never get in range of a good wizard, and the entire time they are kept at range, they have nothing to protect themselves with. Fighters can at least block some spells with pavise and shield while they approach and try to corner a wizard

[atomic mountain]

Going naked is not a plague to the game lol Ya'll be exaggerating on this one

[sudden glacier]

I agree wizard is the most op class in the game by far, but franciscas axe needs to be nerfed for sure

[leaden tide]

in a game where getting loot is meant to be a good thing it is, no one uses armor unless it provides extra stats

[stray saffron]

nah they just need to lose that initial +10 to get +5% like anyone else

[turbid ermine]

What's the point of protecting if a single zaap can 1 shot you?

Wizard and no class is oo, the issue currently is gear which should be touched before balancing begins.

[tame pewter]

my most recent suggestion in the suggestion channel is a possible fix

[dusty cargo]

Idk, they are pretty easy to dodge, and have low effective range, if you get hit by one, you kinda deserve to die tbh lol

[sudden glacier]

that is a nerf bro

[atomic mountain]

Loot is meant to be useful. If I don't get hit, but value move speed, why do I need damage reduction. @leaden tide

[amber solstice]

Felling axe is meta because of it's swing speed, not the guaranteed headshot. It's basically impossible to hit anyone in the back with it, let alone their head from the back unless you have a significant speed advantage. Long reach is absolutely huge for anyone that knows how to use it properly. People that W key and hold attack but can't comprehend why they lost the trade might think otherwise. But good players absolutely use it beautifully. Dodging, kiting, poking are all good against barbs. Literally backing up slowly is just worse than than 180ing and running at full speed like all good players do.

Spear is incredibly easy to headshot as long as they are in range unless they have a shield and know how to use it. 95% phys dmg hard counters barbs that think they can win the trade and magic damage can be blocked/dodged/healed as well as not be negative with 95% gear.
They are the most gear dependent class. They are okay all around until they specialize. They were the most popular class for playtest 3 and we will see if that changed for this playtest soon. Fighters have way higher PvE leaderboard stats while barbs have PvP. Even then, if they changed it from kills to kills+assists, pvp meta would be different.

[sudden glacier]

you dont deserve to die by 2 francisca axe

[stray saffron]

but it isn't specificly for franciscas, it's all axes. on a fighter those are fine

[tame pewter]

dude look at any high level play. they are used more then barbs weapons. This take is pretty delusional

[tame pewter]

that should be a choice you can make, not an obvious meta decision

[dusty cargo]

Idk, again i played exclusively high roller as a ranger, we only had 2-3 deaths to franciscas the whole test

Only deaths we had to franciscas were to Narikk who was top of killer outlaw

[tame pewter]

lucky you. Every one else on the planet would disagree. with movespeed so low hitting the axe is way more up to the thrower than the dodger

[leaden tide]

With the 95% physical dmg reduction build you literally lose more htna 50% of your HP from a single fireball when against a mediocre geared wizard lol, it's a very niche build as a meme

[sudden glacier]

yeah but a fighter uses a bow anyways

[atomic mountain]

Why ppl keep saying meta. Top players don't do it once they find good gear, gear is meta...when it's USEFUL. There's nothing problematic about someone taking off low value starter gear to get a slight advantage because they can get one shot anyways

[turbid ermine]

Narikk is just build different, menace to everyone

[dusty cargo]

Yes, but they need to land one to combo, and dodging them is easy

[amber solstice]

Good thing fighters can't move, block, heal, shoot, throw, or attack a wizard in any way shape or form. Should've tried backpedaling the fireball.

[stray saffron]

not necessary, some people choose not to take weapon mastery

[dusty cargo]

Again, i played ranger, so the higher base ms probably made it easier for me to dodge the axes than for other people, but isn’t it supposed to help barb deal with the characters who just kite him endlessly?

[leaden tide]

yea until it 3 hit kills you just because they hit u once

[sudden glacier]

just nerfing the damage seems a good solution to this

[leaden tide]

keep it as is if they remove slow or decrease damage but keep slow im fine with either but its broken af rn there's a reason why all barbs spam them lol

[sudden glacier]

francisca axe shouldnt have as a main purpose to be a way to kill enemies, it should be a way to get closer to enemies

[dusty cargo]

If you nerf the damage i feel like you have to buff the projectile speed/arc

[tame pewter]

I was talking about before you get hit by one. Once you get hit you are dead. And do you think it is good gameplay to just dodge the spamable axe or just die? And lastly "dodging the axe is easy" is just a really dumb thing to say. The vast majority of players agree it isn't, and it is again way more up the thrower to hit it then it is up to the dodger to dodge it. That's just a ego boost.

[sudden glacier]

totally agree

[turbid ermine]

If you can dodge a wrench, you can dodge an axe

[stray saffron]

and if you can't dodge an axe...well you don't have a face

[dusty cargo]

It genuinely was extremely easy to dodge, but again i played ranger, and i knew how to keep my distance from a barb, wizards and rangers can easily stay outside of the range where franciscas are easy to land and shred a barb

[turbid ermine]

Great ranger guide btw

[tame pewter]

It is very different for ranger, so I can see that from your experience, but for any melee class they are a nightmare

[leaden tide]

🫡 thanks bro trying my best 🙂

[amber solstice]

Yeah, most players are God awful at dodging and then you get the occasional DDR master that giggles and blushes while they make you look like an absolute baboon and still hit all perfects.

[dusty cargo]

Again, every other melee class, other than cleric, can keep outside of that range, and not get in it until it is advantageous to do so. The lack of mobility for barb means that if you don’t position poorly, you can almost always avoid a confrontation with one (again, the exception being the buffs from a wizard and cleric)

[tame pewter]

do you think a spears range is better than a francisca axe?

[dusty cargo]

Barbarian’s fundamental weakness is that he doesn’t get to choose which fights he takes

[leaden tide]

try pushing one hiding in the corner of a chokepoint

[tame pewter]

He has his ways. You can play with a wizard/cleric, get a speed shrine, try to corner people with constant pressure, or get the jump on people

[dusty cargo]

The barbarian isn’t choosing that engagement lol, you are walking directly into him, next

[tame pewter]

no one plays perfect every time barb players just have to pressure you and make it easier and easier to slip up

[atomic mountain]

You don't have control of your character? I agree with some of your points but you off base on this one here lol

[dusty cargo]

Wizards and clerics make up for that weakness, but barb has that weakness still. Every class in the game can do the rest of those. Those are all positional advantages, not class advantages. In every situation where the barb and another class have an even position, the other class can avoid the barb with mobility

[dusty cargo]

Sure, I will also concede that Barb’s gameplan is easy to execute, but it is very linear and easy to exploit

[sudden glacier]

its like having a Real tank and vs people and saying oh but someone has to use the tank

[atomic mountain]

I'm going to bring my usual 15 throwing axes and we can 1v1. Show me that advantage you have to get away from me and my strategic screaming

[sudden glacier]

I think that it isnt fair that if you get shot with 1 francisca axe you are dead

[atomic mountain]

You just played against real potato barbs.

[dusty cargo]

I’m saying that the other classes have the tools to avoid being in a position where the barb is likely to win. If you have to play barb like a rogue (hiding in the shadows hoping someone walks by to get the jump) you might as well be playing rogue

[amber solstice]

I think their weakness is moreso their inability to disengage from a fight because they are the slowest. If they are able to disengage it's generally because they are already winning the fight. But saying to just have a pocket wizard being the counter to anything is just bad in every way.

[leaden tide]

make it nerfed enough so that you need 4 axes still worth using for multiple reasons but its no longer guaranteed kills and it's gold expensive

[faint dirge]

In theory your right

[dusty cargo]

How are you gonna hit me with a francisca axe halfway across the room while i slow you with each ranger shot

[atomic mountain]

You don't have to play the barb like a rogue, but I got a huge leg up on my barb if I ambush you

[turbid ermine]

Pavise exists

[leaden tide]

actual question, if pavise is on ur 2nd slot and ur running away do axes hit it or nah

[sudden glacier]

the thing is if the barb is smart he wont go, he is always safe no matter what only one more super broken class can deal with them and that is the mage

[faint dirge]

Nah , they dont hit

[inner ember]

Nothing is super broken

[stray saffron]

if it aint broke don't fix it

[atomic mountain]

Cus I'm too fast, I'm going to dip dodge duck dive and dodge. Before you can wet yourself and 180, I'm in F axe range and you 💀

[dusty cargo]

If I’m smart, i’m not gonna walk melee range of a barb either. But i can hit him anywhere in my line of sight, he can only hit me in a small circle directly around him

[leaden tide]

the meta is

[sudden glacier]

sure oneshoting people with one zap isnt broken at all while being invisible and superfast

[amber solstice]

Good rangers are way more common than good wizards. I personally had way more issues with good rangers.

[inner ember]

Gear/brain diff

[dusty cargo]

I am going to quick shot and at least one is gonna hit and slow, and from there it’s over lol

[atomic mountain]

A week of playing and we talking about meta

[leaden tide]

Yea because they're more common. A good wizard is far more dangerous than a good ranger and its not even close. Pure class gap

[stray saffron]

gear fix, not class fix

[dusty cargo]

If i missed all those shots, then i deserve to die

[turbid ermine]

520 rogue damage my beloved

[inner ember]

People complaining about getting one shot need to show video proof they weren't wearing starter/grey gear

[dusty cargo]

Omg i missed 12 shots with a recurve bow so a barb got on top of me and i died, BARB OP!!1!1!111!1!1!

[leaden tide]

Yea its enough when the top 2 players have more than 2x hte kills of the top 3+ by abusing the meta

[atomic mountain]

I eat one arrow for breakfast and drink a gallon of milk before you get another hit and I'm on you. I'm like Mike Tyson, I'm vicious

[sudden glacier]

a barb can run to another room if he sees you at a distance, you cant chase him cause he will kill you, if you get in close range with a barb, you are done the only situation when you have advantage as a ranger is if he needs to enter to the zone and there is only one way to enter

[amber solstice]

Good rangers will absolutely chase a barb down.

[faint dirge]

Ranger literally wins vs barb in most cases, With penta shot you almost onehit him

[leaden tide]

No one actually relies on it that's just a meme. It's literally a last resort thing to do if you can't run away for some reason
It's easy to miss some arrows and due to how tanky barbarians are unless you've shaved some of his HP already you're very likely to not kill him.

[dusty cargo]

How are you not seeing that the situation where the barb is out of line of sight is winning for the ranger? I can hit most places in the room from any position within the room, and I have the mobility and interaction speed to leave that room safely if i need to

[faint dirge]

You shouldnt rely on it, but you can

[atomic mountain]

It was surely the most obvious strategy, and when you riding a wave why stop right? But when people learned how to counter it and thought of other things that could work it was not OP anymore.
Thus is the natural and cyclical nature of what metas are

[turbid ermine]

Penta shot currently is only worth for ogre and king wraith fight in my experience*

Good to recharge tho

[leaden tide]

It was always OP, there was no counter other than spamming traps everywhere and running away

[dusty cargo]

It’s also good just for an instant reload, just multi shot and then hit f for a full quiver

[sudden glacier]

you are not winning if you are not getting his loot, he is just evading you

[atomic mountain]

No counter other than the counter? 👍

[leaden tide]

Yea your coutner is running away nice counter bro

[tame pewter]

bc you cant push him?

[faint dirge]

There is no real counter

[gray vessel]

The arrows also do less, smth like 50/75/100/75/50 if I remember right.

[atomic mountain]

Yeah, separate the barb from his support, capitalize on his overconfidence

[dusty cargo]

He’s not getting my loot either, and I can loot safely from a distance, if he leaves from behind the corner, i can shoot him, if he tries to open a portal, i can quick shot him to death

[faint dirge]

I dont know the exact numbers , might be 33 66 100 66 33

[dusty cargo]

Chadiator was right

[leaden tide]

that's just skill gap not a counter. Meta implies that a strategy is extremely likely to win if all players are of equal or similar skill

[dusty cargo]

it’s 3.5x total if all shots land

[leaden tide]

kinda hard to hit all shots tbh

[faint dirge]

Not really

[atomic mountain]

If you're saying everyone being equal skill means both teams crashing together like a couple mindless waves of NPCs, sure

[leaden tide]

could hit 2 and 3 very consistently and sometimes 4 but 5 is just very hard frommy experience

[dusty cargo]

I don’t run multi shot personally, I prefer quick shot and quick fire and just play at range

[sudden glacier]

that is a draw, if he gets closer then he wins, he is in a better position than you he just needs to be in close rooms, im not saying you cant win he just have way more advantages than you, I dont know what kind of bow you have but if you have similar gear you wont kill him with 3 shots

[leaden tide]

no man im sure you know best since ur counter to the established meta is placing traps and running away

[faint dirge]

You dont use it as a shotgun, you use it when they stand literaly in you

[turbid ermine]

I prefer field rations such a useful powerful ability

[leaden tide]

yea I rarely do that i just run away lmao

[faint dirge]

You dodge the attack and then jump into them with penta shot, but you have to be sure to execute them

[stray saffron]

got to use multi basically as a smack of your bow as they're glued against it

[amber solstice]

Field ration is just saving gold on consumables while giving up power.

[tame pewter]

Look I strongly agree with barb being way better, but I dont theres much to gain from discussing weird hypotheticals that assume only a few possible outcomes

[atomic mountain]

I just don't agree wholeheartedly that there's even a such thing as "an established meta" when we only played for a week

[graceful frost]

yeah I havent used it much but for me its basically a getting jumped by rogue, click here button. Or if you can get inside of someone, but normally I just run and use it for the reload

[faint dirge]

Not really

[tame pewter]

thats fair, but people can get a pretty good idea of a game in a week

[leaden tide]

The leaderboards and the playerbase disagree with you. There has never been a more domineering 3v3 group than the cleric/wizard/barb as there is now

[faint dirge]

Its to avoid downtime, if you cant afford pots you have no good weapon in which case taking damage ability for defense purpose is important too

[sudden glacier]

yeah im just saying that generally he has a little bit more advantage against most classes

[graceful frost]

field ration is a quick 25 heal during a fight thats almost instant, its a lot more than a replace for heals. its like saying cleric heals are just saving up on gold and consumables while giving up power of a different class. both are really fast heals that can be used mid fight

[faint dirge]

Exactly, its not pve healing, its to avoid downtime

[atomic mountain]

Setting traps, and buying for time, or separating the barb (let alone ANYONE) from the other two players is strategic. You don't have to fight on terms that favor the other teams' strategy like you have no choice lol

[amber solstice]

Leaderboards are like that because its killing blows and not kills+assists. You need a 3 man team that gives all the kills to one person and there is no better way than wiz/cler/barb.

[leaden tide]

I was thinking of switching entirely to quick fire tbh. I know multishot reload will get nerfed eventually so might as well get used to it. Also I assume you use 2 bows with quick fire no?

[dusty cargo]

No, i am free to do so much more than he is because of the range advantage. I can keep my distance from the door he’s camping and do whatever i want to in that room, if he tries ti do anything else, i can start shooting him. I never needed more than 5 shots to kill a barb who didn’t have the entire set of cleric and wizard buffs on him.

[graceful frost]

yeah, and it still can get its place taken by more dps, especially if your really good, but I hate seeing people say only bad players use it, or its just a way to save on heals which really isnt true

[faint dirge]

I think if they fix the crossbow ppl should take crossbow and secondary longbow with penta shot

[graceful frost]

that sounds like a really fun combo cant lie

[atomic mountain]

I'd say this is true in most situations, but it's all based on preparedness and positioning

[faint dirge]

The crossbow without the bug is really really good

[dusty cargo]

Field rations are only if you are struggling to make profit in HR, and that’s just a skill issue

[turbid ermine]

Wizard crossbow is slept on

[leaden tide]

I wish they improved the crossbow fall off trajectory and another small buff to reload speed and I'd use it 100%

[graceful frost]

I hope thats sarcasm, or else imma start a fight cause thats blatantly not true.

[sudden glacier]

agree you only need them when you have trash gear or you are trying to kill a boss

[leaden tide]

I dont think field rations are necessarily bad, they just aren't worth taking since quick fire and multishot simply are better for pvp

[bold dove]

What if Field Rations gave a short buff?

[dusty cargo]

The skill does absolutely nothing for you 90% of the dungeons, and then you can pop it in the middle of PvP while you can’t be hitting your attacker and get back the same amount of health that a base recurve bow will hit you for, yeah i’ll pass

[sudden glacier]

yeah like 25 hp isnt bad but you prefer to land a shot than getting 25 hp

[graceful frost]

Lmao field ration is a very quick heal during a fight. Even if your really good you can still take damage, and being able to almost instant heal 25 hp back is very nice. Yes the better you get they become less useful, but its still a good skill for the best player, just gets outweighed a bit from the dps of quickfire and the reload/close range of multishot. Saying its completely useless and only for bad players is like saying cleric heals are only for bad players who don't want to bring in heals. when they are quick 15 or 30 hp heals during a fight

[dusty cargo]

Field rations are fine if you are still dying to PvE

[faint dirge]

25 hp is more than 25 damage i hope yall realise that

[amber solstice]

Field ration is giving up offensive potential for healing, which you can get more of through consumables, but you can't get extra dps from is the basic point. Not that field rations hasn't saved anyone or been better in a scenario.

[faint dirge]

Thats when not to take them

[dusty cargo]

I’d rather have true shot than field rations

[sudden glacier]

I prefer to deal 50+ damage to someone than getting a heal

[leaden tide]

i wouldnt

[faint dirge]

Do 50 damage while your 1 shot and die, gj boy

[graceful frost]

????? true shot rlly isn't that good? if you said quickfire that would have made sense, again if you would read my message up top you could easily see that field ration is not for pve its for quick heal in pvp

[sudden glacier]

yeah and my enemy is just going to let me heal and dont shoot me or stab me sure that seems better

[faint dirge]

Lil bro doesnt know walls

[graceful frost]

yeah, but still ranger is pretty squishy and those consumables won't heal you anywhere near as fast. That 25 hp really quick can be the difference between life and death in many situations. Again not saying its the best skill to use, I am saying its up there around multishot and many quickfire for a secondary skill, and isn't this skill that you only use if your bad

[sudden glacier]

yeah a wall is going to save me against a rogue instead of killing him with a shot

[graceful frost]

first walls, second if its another ranger you can pop that field ration faster then they can get another shot off, or get another axe off. also @sudden glacier how u takin dmg against a rogue when he isn't close to you? maybe rupture throwing knife but we arent saying field ration is the solution to 100 percent of scenarios

[dusty cargo]

Quick fire is my secondary next to quick shot, it’s practically another instant reload, and the attack speed is really high, massive dps boost. If you need a quick PvP heal, you are gonna die with or without the field ration because it means someone is on top of you and has hit you and you are slowed because of it. And rather than killing him before you can attack, you are healing a negligible amount of hp

[verbal marsh]

True shot was great, would use with field rations and crossbow mastery

[sudden glacier]

the thing is that I would prefer landing a shot than getting a heal for sure I dont see how are you changing my mind about this , the only situations that field ration is better is when you have trash gear cause you prefer the heal than shooting with a trashbow, or killing bosses for the instant heal otherwise I prefer to shot

[graceful frost]

first you did say true shot in the first place which I was criticizing. also yes quickfire is a very strong skill, but that doesn't make field ration bad? also the field ration is very very fast, most situations thats not gonna cost you a shot or heal. also 25 hp is not negligible, lie 1/3 of rangers health or maybe a bit less than that

[dusty cargo]

Building around crossbow when your class has access to the best skill im the game (quick shot) is grief

[verbal marsh]

dont need to quickshot when my windlass 1 shots, and my regular crossbow shoots as fast as recurve...

[dusty cargo]

Im saying field rations are so pointless, i would rather have true shot. It at least adds some damage

[graceful frost]

field ration goes off fast most of the time you can still get that shot off and it might just be half a second later. It isn't just when you have trash gear, also most people when doing bosses run both damage perks so they can kill the boss faster. 1 heal isnt gonna cost you like 5 shots, its gonna cost you at most 1, and most of the time it will just be half a second later. Again not saying its the best skill, or that its better than something like quickfire as a secondary, just saying it has uses and isn't that bd

[graceful frost]

thats an extremely hot take lmao. Thats why many decet-good ranger players run field ration, yet its worse than a skill almost nobody runs lol

[sudden glacier]

I think it is a good skill but true shot or multishot seems better when you are geared

[floral bison]

You're missing out on a lot of util in the heat of a fight then. No point in more dmg if you quickly die like a dog.

[verbal marsh]

field rations are a must have, instantly puts you in unarmed speed sometimes i use just to reposition and equip swap from invo.

[graceful frost]

I think you mean quickfire but I agree. I am not arguing for it to be best skill or instant secondary, just that its better than people give it credit for, and isn't a thing you use if your bad, or don't want to buy heals

[sudden glacier]

I never said its bad, just not you best option

[languid heron]

As someone who mains a class who doesnt come with free healing, ranger having a campfire and rations is sooo good. multishot reloading your quiver makes it the best dmg skill. i dont play ranger so idk i might be wrong, but from an outside perspective rations seem od

[amber solstice]

Having extra damage every 20 seconds is always helpful, and makes the difference in win vs lose far more often than field rations will if you are using consumables. Most people forgo consumables because they have field rations and disadvantage themselves.

[graceful frost]

yeah I agree, but it does have a place in a good bit of situations.

[sudden glacier]

Yeah when you are in highroller with badgear it is really good cause you dont have money to afford potions or bandages

[faint dirge]

Its really bad then, you cant kill anyone

[graceful frost]

again I don't think its really a replacement for consumables. If your running highroller with no consumables you shouldnt be running high roller, you should take that money and buy basic potions and go normal

[dusty cargo]

If you are struggling to afford consumables, you are food in high rollers (wrong reply)

[sudden glacier]

Im mostly a solo player im not looking for kills with bad gear seems imposible to 1v3 vs geared players im just looking for loot

[amber solstice]

Like half of every high roller game I played were basically zero to hero people hoping to score big. Lol

[languid heron]

besides, isnt ration instant health and not healing over time?

[faint dirge]

Then the higher clear speed of the other skills still seem better

[graceful frost]

? litterally just said that more or less. also how does that apply to "it does have a place in a good bit of situations" Again it isn't a replacement for consumables it is a quick heal during a fight similar to cleric spells. Im done replying to you cause your takes are kinda awful and even if it isn't the best skill it isn't worse than true shot lmfao

[dusty cargo]

It’s not instant though, it’s not fast enough for you to heal and strike before you get hit again and die

[sudden glacier]

I can get legendaries for sure with a white bow and no consumables., if the lobby isnt to agressive or full

[floral bison]

Yes, it's instant. And its near a 1/3 of a rangers health. eating all 3 basically brings you from 0 to 100%. it DOES have the same cast time as pots, but you get the hp instant.

[graceful frost]

not saying default gear is bad or don't go into highr oller with it, i am saying don't go into high roller without consumables

[dusty cargo]

It has such limited use case, that it is better to have any other skill than field rations unless you are struggling to extract because you are learning how to survive PvE

[dusty cargo]

Default gear is awful, cleric is the only class where it doesn’t really matter what you’re wearing

[languid heron]

Right, so after the animation, which all healing does have, its more akin to bandages than pots. so having 3 short animation bandages that heals for a lot seems p cracked, especially if youre doing high roller or going to inferno

[graceful frost]

you must be a troll or extremely blind if you think its only to be used in pve. Actually you are just a troll, I have said along with others it isn't a thing to be used in pve, its like saying cleric heals are just if your dying to pve and don't have money. Ok you are obviously a troll

[verbal marsh]

Field rations can be diff in you getting 1 shot or not, the ms bonus of animation cancel to full speed is too good to pass.

[sudden glacier]

why wouldnt I, I get 600 gold at least and I dont need the consumables for anything at all, the rations are doing the work in case I get hit by a mob and if im solo with trash gear im not looking for any fights at all

[turbid ermine]

ranger, hit by a mob

[verbal marsh]

If you're using field rations for pve dmg shame on you lol

[graceful frost]

true

[dusty cargo]

Im not trolling, Im telling you, it doesn’t make the difference in PvP for this reason: because you have consumables, you are topped off at the beginning of every fight, now you get hit in melee combat, so you pop field rations, every single melee weapon will get at least 1.5 more attack animations through before the animation finishes and you are able to fire back. The third hit lands, and you are dead. Maybe it keeps you alive long enough for a teammate to kill them

[sudden glacier]

with starter gear and solo of course im using them only for that, if im with good gear I wont use field rations at all

[graceful frost]

ranged weapons exist? wiz spells. another ranger, rogue daggers, throwing axes, you can run away from a barb after 1 body shot and pop a ration since it is fist movement speed or close to it. igh im done replying to you, you have awful takes lmao and are a troll

[sudden glacier]

I got to top rangers being solo, like I have nothing to be ashamed other than losing my time playing videogames haha

[dusty cargo]

Field rations is tied for the worst skill on ranger with true shot, but true shot is at least usable in crossbow builds

[languid heron]

But thats not when you use it. As a ranger if you are in melee your p much already dead to a fighter or barb who know what they are doing. Field rations play into the actual play style of the ranger of bobbing in and out of cover. Say im a wiz and i chuck a fireball and hit you with the splash or hit your group with chain lightning, you pop rations and youre back in the fight covering your fighter who doesnt have an insta heal.

[verbal marsh]

It's entertaining to see people attempt to bash my ranger build.

[leaden tide]

lol guess what class won the 1v1 tournament

[graceful frost]

even though many rangers and have seen many good ones use field ration in any build, yet your saying true shot is better for being used in a single build by nobody lmao. ok troll im done talking to you, don't feed the trolls

[turbid ermine]

Cleric

[leaden tide]

lmao. This shouldn't come as a surprise but yea wizard dominated hard lol

[turbid ermine]

Darn, what a surprise

[graceful frost]

was either fighter or wizard for me

[sudden glacier]

why are we even talking about rangers and barbs when wizards exist

[leaden tide]

Wasn't even close lmao

[languid heron]

HAHA, Wiz is da bestest class

[smoky yoke]

sometimes rations can be used to clutch in pvp
but yea once you have finished them and perhaps you plan to go in B3, then you may have 0 rations and play just with one skill, it is in fact not good to play with 1 skill only ahah

[amber solstice]

Because wizard is the hardest class to play well so most people dont even encounter good wizards.

[sudden glacier]

they literally oneshot you with a zap with good gear while being the fastest and also invisible, or even with a dagger

[dusty cargo]

i’d always rather pop a pot and a bandage and have access to a useful skill

[smoky yoke]

yea sure
seems fair to me
I'd probably play ranger in that way too

[sudden glacier]

kind of true

[leaden tide]

yea build was the dagger + blue ball thingy
fireball spam and 1 tapping with dagger if htey got close

[amber solstice]

Every second I play wizard or cleric I cant help but think to myself GIVE ME KEYBINDS FOR SPELLS.

[dusty cargo]

Wizard is so overtuned, there’s nothing to disagree about, we’d all just be circle-jerking about how broken wizards and clerics are

[smoky yoke]

yea this is true
it is also enough to see wizards such Apollo
very nice wizard mains

[turbid ermine]

wizard gear is not cheap either

[dusty cargo]

It’s not hard, it’s just the most different of the classes

[verbal marsh]

felt like good rogue gear was hardest to get.

[turbid ermine]

Oi cleric is fine, it's, as usual. An issue with gear

[dusty cargo]

Rogue gear was everywhere down in B3

[sudden glacier]

what are you talking about, they were the most stingy of all classes selling them things in the market was imposible

[dusty cargo]

And on the markets, good ranger gear was the most expensive imo

[turbid ermine]

Then the prices sky rocketed because rogues are also buying some of the gear

[smoky yoke]

they need specific stats for sure

[sudden glacier]

yeah for sure longbows expensive af

[verbal marsh]

wizard gear was easy to find in caves if you knew the spots

[smoky yoke]

isn't rng in the end?

[verbal marsh]

not when you can speed que and just die lol

[sudden glacier]

all wizards only wanted the books nothing else, offered them crystall balls with +3 all and magic power for 200g and they didnt wanted that like you wanted for 100 or what

[dusty cargo]

Some mobs only drop certain types of weapons, or at least are more likely to

[smoky yoke]

like the skeleton mages i guess
way more likely to drop spellbooks i guess or mage stuff

[turbid ermine]

Big difference, that's like trying to sell one handed axes, outclassed weapons don't sell

[amber solstice]

They aren't hard, just unconventional. The spell wheel design choice is incredibly offputting to a lot of people. Adds an entirely new element of gameplay that is the opposite of quality of life. No idea if it's an intentional limitation or not though.

[smoky yoke]

I find the spell wheel very nice and comfortable

[dusty cargo]

Horseman’s and Fellings were the only things barbs bought

[sudden glacier]

market is a lot of fun also

[languid heron]

Wiz is hard, being squishy means if you fuck up even a little you die. i will agree that they benefit the most from gear than any class so a skilled wiz with gear is op

[smoky yoke]

also many francisca axes

the #1 rank barbarian had so many francisca axes in their inventory
they are meta for real

InsaneZeno

[sudden glacier]

yeah I got with them in lobbies and they always had like 30 francisca axe in the inventory

[turbid ermine]

Of the 3 blue axes with decent stats only one sold, one handed axes were a nono, dual wield was rare and no fighter wants em

[smoky yoke]

[leaden tide]

#notmeta #notbroken

[sudden glacier]

#fair

[turbid ermine]

Nothing the cleric bois can't handle, totally

[dusty cargo]

xD if you still think Barb is the problem, and not the Wizard and Cleric stacking 6 buffs on him, idk what to tell you

[leaden tide]

No but the throwing axes ARE a problem

[smoky yoke]

this may be true, but i don't know
barbarian oneshotting with 1 hit of felling axe a fighter full geared purple/blue at full hp seems weird

[sudden glacier]

that is what I been saying all day but this guy cant agree

[smoky yoke]

I just think personally there is something off, with the damage of the felling axe

[turbid ermine]

The damage scaling is a clear problem, so is some casting time reductions, casting buffs every 0.6ms, as well as 50-65% hp heals on the same time was not fun for anyone

[dusty cargo]

Again, maybe i’m biased because i play ranger, but i felt like if i ever got hit by one, i deserved to die because i made a lot of mistakes to be getting hit by a francisca

[languid heron]

facts, felling axe dps needs to be lowered. either slower swings or lowered dmg but 1-2 shotting hs with a downward animation that fast is gross

[smoky yoke]

you can get like even more than 30 throwing axes
and retrieve them

[turbid ermine]

Think it's more an overall issue with all damage scaling.

Wizard can 1 shot
Barb can 1 shot

[smoky yoke]

once you hit someone, they walk slow
and i mean just checking the video of the top barbarian
the throwing axes were insane

[sudden glacier]

we all agree that rogues and fighters are the worst class in the game right, they can be good for sure but the other classes are better

[dusty cargo]

Full purple and blues doesn’t matter, it’s all about the rolls. and if it’s a fighter, it sounds like it must have been pretty bad rolls if you’re literally getting one shot

[languid heron]

yeah but wiz one shot comes from loot not buffs and loot giving strength doesnt bother me thats the whole point. but a base barb, buffed, can still 1-2 shot

[sudden glacier]

once you do a little mistake you are done, and the problem is that they are also inmortal

[smoky yoke]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HY8ebTYKWug

[dusty cargo]

Yeah, I played against Narikk a lot, and he was the only person to kill me with franciscas, of course he had a wizard and cleric buffing him as he ran us down in the worst spawn room in the game

[smoky yoke]

watch this if you want @dusty cargo

[leaden tide]

yup

[turbid ermine]

Fellint Axe without stacking strenght or damage is a 2 shot...as it should be for a weapon with stilleto range

[dusty cargo]

I think rogue fighter and barb are pretty well balanced, but below ranger, and ranger is quite a bit below wizard and cleric

[tame pewter]

dude your ego lmao, let it go you are wrong

[smoky yoke]

yes this is also may be true, fighter must seek for physical damage reduction

[sudden glacier]

yeah this video proves the point

[languid heron]

but you missed the point about the arc of the swing. stilleto is a point animation and can be dodged easily, the large verticle arc of felling means you almost never get anything other than hs

[amber solstice]

Yeah, geared fighters, as in armor with good mods and not just grey plate in every slot always took like 3+, with the 95% phys dr ones eating 10 and not dying. And that's if they arent getting pumped with heals/shields.

[smoky yoke]

by the way please let's remain kind🙂

[turbid ermine]

Range still matters a lot with a class that struggles to weave otuside of broken projectiles

Should be rewarded

[dusty cargo]

Imagine watching that first clip, and thinking that the barb or the franciscas are the problem rather than the absurd ms he has because of the ranger and cleric buffs lol

[leaden tide]

This dude literally using a 1h axe 2 hsotting every class in the game (and sometimes 1 shotting) funny guy

[tame pewter]

there are a lot of problems, and they should all be addressed

[languid heron]

fair point, but most of barb weapons dont come close to something like a spear in terms of range. I agree you should be rewarded for getting in close like that, i simply think that a 1-2 shot is a bit much, ad perhaps more a 2-3 shot would allow for more counter or out play

[smoky yoke]

yes barbarian is strong even more if buffed thanks to cleric and wizard
but also other classes can be strong if buffed by wizard and cleric
however if you would keep watching you would notice that it is very possible to stack really a lot of francisca axes

[turbid ermine]

What shouldn't be rewarded is forgetting any form of build making and just stackint damage as we did during the playtest coz scaling is broken

[dusty cargo]

Divine Strikes, Bless, Protection, Haste, Invis, and the best loot in the game. BARB OP!1!11!1!!!1!1

[dusty cargo]

Barb and franciscas are not the problem here, the problems are wizard and cleric

[languid heron]

idk why you are getting so upset about buffs. Rewarded for team play, crazy concept

[turbid ermine]

Nah the problem is scaling in gear. Cleric is fine, wiz may need a tweak

[tame pewter]

no they are in fact both problems

[leaden tide]

50% of the dudes kills were throwing axes how is that not aproblem

[dusty cargo]

Everyone here is calling for barb nerfs, when it’s not the class that is the problem

[turbid ermine]

It's the throwing axes and gear that is the problem

[leaden tide]

his throwing axes gets more kills than rangers get with bows lel

[smoky yoke]

the fact you can have 30+ throwing axes, it is very good
and you can also afford to miss some, but still throwing them all
and if you are fast, you can also equip other 3 pairs of throwing axes while fighting

[dusty cargo]

Agreed, wizard and cleric are both problems

[turbid ermine]

How are clerics an issue

[tame pewter]

and, say it with me, barbarian

[smoky yoke]

I think barbarian is fine
but the damage of felling axe should be checked
when it comes to utility items i think there should be some cap

[languid heron]

Right, but i agree with some points. throwing axes are easy af to dodge, but barb dmg, buffed or otherwise is a bit od where the only thing to counter them is to run or use ranger trap. whereas you dont need a nerf for buffs because if the other team is also working together and not bad, they are prepping their own buffs or situations for their advantage

[sudden glacier]

agree

[dusty cargo]

Healing 70% hp on an extremely short cd, giving divine strikes, bless, and protection to a carry. A full support cleric is busted

[sudden glacier]

we agree bro like we know they are the top class, but that doesn't mean that francisca axes, aren't broken

[smoky yoke]

the throwing axes may be easy to dodge but if they hit you just once, they make you walk slow, and then they just throw you the rest of the axes
which can be up to 30+ throwing axes

[dusty cargo]

Barb is the slowest class in the game, and has the lowest effective range because they are extremely slow and their only good weapons have short range

[atomic mountain]

Supportive team play and playing to your comps' strength is a problem, we should discourage strong strategies as much as possible so much so that the only way for a 3 man to support each other in a fight is to all rush in and flail about wildly

[dusty cargo]

They aren’t broken though

[turbid ermine]

That's an issue with gear making casting time 0.6 instead of 1.2, same for healing those amounts of ho. If the casting time buff was at most 1 second, it's take 3 seconds to buff someone fully.

Cleric in exchange has shitty agility values, can't win a 1v1 and requires his own buffs to compare to everyone, as well as been the worst 1v1 class in the game.

Cleric is fine, it's gear that breaks everything

[leaden tide]

Half of zeno kills as a barbarian came from a throwing utility item but somehow it's not broken ok

[languid heron]

Right, and so they should be rewarded for getting in close, but a 1shot hs with felling axe swing is too much a reward. The class itself i think is fine, just felling axe dmg is a touch overtuned

[smoky yoke]

[atomic mountain]

Where can we go see these statistics

[leaden tide]

his youtube

[smoky yoke]

you can have like more than 50+ throwing axes

when just 3 or 4 throwing axes is enough to kill a player

throwing axes aren't a problem

[languid heron]

throwing axe and one handed i think are fine. its a skill issue if you get hit in the first place and if the barb slows down even further to throw them, also putting his weapon away you should outplay not run

[dusty cargo]

You’re not getting a one shot with a felling axe on an equally geared opponent unless it’s a wizard, rogue or ranger, which have SOOOOOO much more mobility than you and are glass cannon classes

[amber solstice]

Yeah everyone loves to post the InsaneZeno highlight reel when it's literally one of if not the most geared, prepared, coordinated, and skilled groups of players designed for pvp steamrolling almost entirely groups of people that basically have no idea what's happening, just happily looting and not wondering what all those buff spell sounds are in the room next door. Him being hasted+invis causes so much pressure almost everyone just starts running away and he just to do what he pleases. You don't get to see any of the lowlights of fair fights or losses. You don't see anyone moving, abusing mechanics, or playing at the same level as InsaneZeno. He could've punched most of those people to death. Try to hit Francescas he does, you won't. He makes it all look easy but basically no one is that good and most people assume that's how good every naked barb is.

[leaden tide]

yea skill issue that the guy with 20 throwing axes landed one

[turbid ermine]

Meanwhile ranger crying in a corner

[atomic mountain]

Did you use an analysts go-to notepad or a rectal thermometer to gather this data?

[languid heron]

1-2 shot, my correction. but the slow from the first hit guarantees the second hit. and you also just listed half the cast, so what you mean is he 1-2 shots 50% of the classes

[sudden glacier]

yeah, I surrender trying to convince him

[leaden tide]

Narikk did the same, Grimmz did the same. Every single decent barbarian does the same. It's all throwing axes spam

[smoky yoke]

even if you miss 2 or 3, you have other 50 throwing axes left

[sudden glacier]

you only need to land one and gg

[leaden tide]

skill issue if one of those 50 hits you bro

[smoky yoke]

like you can have more than 50+ throwing axes
and 3/4 throwing axes is enough to kill a player

and on top of that, you can even retrieve the throwing axes even while fighting ect
it is for sure very strong

[dusty cargo]

Yes but if you play against a wizard or ranger or rogue who knows how to play against Barb, you are not getting in range for that first attack (unless of course you are running the wizard/cleric/barb death ball)

[languid heron]

just dodge lol, idk what else to tell you. And the vids are the cream of the crop of that tech, watching his stream youd see there are just as many times, mind you fewer because he is a good player, where someone pushes him or flanks or was invis and one shots him before he can take his axe out

[leaden tide]

Also you're being generous with the 3/4. Maybe if you're a fighter most of the time 2/3 is enough for ranger/rogue/wizard

[smoky yoke]

people played the playtest just few days
InsaneZeno have most likely more than 400 hours in the game already

but i can understand what you mean, it is for sure also skill based

[turbid ermine]

If you have enough mordhau hours, you can body morph the franciscas away, just don-t get hit once

[languid heron]

Correct. which is where the skill comes in. If a barb can get in, then he should be rewarded, if he cant, he should be punished/ the wiz should be rewarded for spacing. All im saying is the reward for the barb to successfully get in close is a touch over tuned.

[leaden tide]

All top players using barbarian use the exact same mechanic of spamming throwing axes
Somehow still try to argue that a throwing utility item that 2-3 hit kills isn't broken

lol

[amber solstice]

I've repeatedly told you that I think Francescas are overpowered. I just disagree that nerfing the damage by 10 will fix the problem. I think that haste+invis probably the biggest problem in the game currently. But I also think that francescas specifically are throw too fast consecutively. Increasing the time between throws alleviates a lot more of the problem than simple reducing the damage by a small amount.

[dusty cargo]

Barbs who aren’t buffed by wizards and clerics are not doing that, throwing axes only look strong because the wizard cleric barb strat is overtuned

[leaden tide]

lol no

[smoky yoke]

yea true

[languid heron]

But again that requires 3 coordinated players all buffing the barb, and i just dont think that team play should be punished that bad.

[turbid ermine]

Why don't clerics and wizards buffs fighters, or rangers then? wiz buffs sure, bit overtuned...cleric ones not so much, it's gear just been over it

[leaden tide]

go play barbarian next playtest and go around with throwing axes. If you have regular decent gear you WILL 2-3 hit kill all classes besides barb/fighter even without buffs.

[atomic mountain]

That literally became the meta near the end of the playtest, you just weren't watching it develop

[turbid ermine]

I was in high roller and most groups were running the usual, just more presence of uniques and purples

[leaden tide]

was never the meta unless ur referring to the VERY FEW groups buffing overgeared fighters (especially those with the unique halberd). It's the same issue as buffing the barbarian except not as prominent or as domineering

The underlying issue is still the same just the vessel is a downgrade

[turbid ermine]

The issue is clearly gear, gear makes scaling of casting times and damage be broken, no class can claim to be broken over others till the gear issue is fixed and we see how classes truly perform, the exception been francisca funny slowdown making the next hit free

[dusty cargo]

They buff Barbs because the move speed buffs in particular benefit Barb more than any other class. Barb is the most powerful class, but is normally easy to kite, you give him the ability to zoom across a room and now he has no weaknesses

[atomic mountain]

Serious question: are you just a fighter main that dislikes barbs because you have tiny damage and have to do more than W key and swing a one handed weapon wildly to win the fight?

[dusty cargo]

Divine strikes and bless also scale better on barb because barbs weapons have higher base damage

[turbid ermine]

You said it yourself, "barb is the most powerful class". The kite issue is also a result of the slightly over the top haste buff that wizards can grant combined with the invis speed buff that you, for some reason, also get

[leaden tide]

No I'm a ranger main. If you don't understand how a fighter is a literal downgrade to a barbarian in current meta that's just you lacking experience in HR

[dusty cargo]

But normally that is kept in check because it is hard for barb to land a hit because of his poor mobility

[languid heron]

But getting gear thats good should be rewarded. You run the risk of losing it for taking it in the first place, so the reward should be worth the risk. and its really class dependent. Like wiz benefit from +all stats more than any other class. best response i saw was limit certain buffs to certain items. Something like + all stats only being on jewlery or smthing

[dusty cargo]

Literally only time fighter is a down grade is if you’re running wizard/barb/cleric

[leaden tide]

That's what I'm saying. No point buffing a fighter if the barb is a better vessel

[atomic mountain]

Cleric pocketing a wizard? Ranger trapping all the overconfident barbs and playing for time so the buffs can run out? Fighter being able to block and contest the barbs advance with phys resist on his side?

[dusty cargo]

Yes, but if you’re pairing with anything other than wizard AND cleric, you would rather have a fighter than a barb

[turbid ermine]

Never said it shouldn't. But gear should never be able to 1 shot gear on the same tier as it is. Currently what happened in HR is people rolled mostly blues because they are more budget and still easily 1 shot anyone in purples.

This should never be the case, it's not rewarding to get gear when you will get 1 shot naked or with purples by a barb on 184 damage felling axe.

[dusty cargo]

barb is only good because of the wizard cleric combo

[leaden tide]

I wouldn't, depends on team comp. If I have 2 ranged classes i'd rather play long range ro around a chokepoint with a barbarian waiting for enemy to push. If they don't push advantage is ours anyways as we have 2 ranged

[atomic mountain]

Ah, I get it now. Yeah barbs eat ya'll for breakfast all the way to desert. This explains why you won't come down out of the saddle. Which is crazy because at a higher level of skill expression and awareness ya'll do the same to the barbs, just comes down to player skill

[leaden tide]

Huh, I rarely die to abrbarians lmao. Doesn't mean that they aren't busted. If I wanted to cry about something I'd cry about how geared fighters in HR take 20 arrows to kill

[languid heron]

I disagree, a really good rolled blue could be able to out dmg and or 1 shot a poorly rolled purple. i dont think just because it has a higher rarity does it mean it should always be better

[dusty cargo]

I would always take a fighter here, they can also play the poke game with a bow, or they could hold a choke with a pavise while the range classes fire and they could do the same thing the barb is doing (granted barb would do this ONE thing better, but couldn’t do the other two)

[leaden tide]

unless fighter is running a high physical resistance build I would take the barbarian always, otherwise enemy barb will just rush and wipe the fighter off the planet, if not then yea sure fighter

[atomic mountain]

Yeah that sounds more busted to me. Just because something was popular doesn't scream to me that it's OP and is busted. If anything, a popular choice would be much easier to defend against because you know what to expect because of the amount of exposure and skill you've built up to counter it

[turbid ermine]

If I'm dealing 184 damage with felling axe, or a wiz is dealing 200 damage on zaap, only 1 class can tank the first and no one can tank the second because of poor MR scaling.

Damage scaling is overtuned and should scale with average defense scaling so htk on the same gear tier remains the same, that way you are rewarded for decently rolling damage and been able to 1 shot any other tier below you...but you can't 1 shot literally everybody. Additionaly nerfing other gains like casting speed means that you can no longer heal 70% of the hp of someone in 0.6ms...which is faster than most weapons can swing in the game.

[dusky obsidian]

I think the gnome casket i put in #d-and-d-suggestions and #dnd-content should be added.

[dusty cargo]

hold pavise at a choke point, the barb cannot do anything about it, or poke him while he approaches with the other two range, and the barb will never be able to touch you

[leaden tide]

it is kinda busted but I guess they also get absolutely destroyed by wizards as a trade off I guess. But yea still doesn't feel too good tickling fighters. Nonetheless, barbarians are still busted due to the buffs they are given. They are a 1 shot class with 0 weaknesses, choosing a different vessel is always a downgrade.

[dusty cargo]

How is a felling axe barb gonna deal with a pavise, when he can only strike for headshots

[torpid kernel]

That looks pretty cool

[turbid ermine]

If we keep gear like it is currently, there is no incentive to do any build outside of damage scaling on everyone, defense gets overpowered easily by damage

[dusky obsidian]

I think so too. I think it would be a veryu cool loot stash.