suggestion-discussion

[sterile zodiac]

Hm, maybe I need to study up some more on the Troll then.

[wintry wind]

https://discordapp.com/channels/988365908009447485/1048759403819577486/1077580080005529680

I guess I specified 'Inferno Boss Kills' but frankly it should apply to all bosses.

Killing them should prompt portals to rise inside the arena

[white cliff]

If you watch a lot of boss runs, I’d say a solid 95% of them end towards boss room.

[wanton lintel]

Do you guys think the idea of "loot drop" portals would be a fun idea or a bad idea?

i.e. weaker portals spawn that offer like a 2x2 or a 3x3 drop-off that you can pick up after your dungeon run is over. It might add some strategy to extraction and can be balanced by increasing/decreasing their spawn rate. (but might also be too casual-friendly?)

[smoky yoke]

in my experience, not always but yea most of time around the center

sometimes even not consistent spawns
like in the center of the boss room and in another room lol

[white cliff]

Sure not always, but even casually playing B3 you’ll notice the portal tilt towards center.

[stray saffron]

nah no stashes or anything like that. it's like insurance of tarkov but on stuff you just found

[rocky field]

If the troll was easy to walk in first time without any knowledge and kill, he would be incredibly easy. As for lich king and ghost king, you don't need to watch a video to kill them. In fact imo, watching a video ruins the experience as they aren't extremely difficult, as long as you follow basic blind boss fighting principles which is to keep your distance and observe their patterns. But honestly, I don't know any stats but I think the majority of people didn't have too bad of a time walking in blind to ghost and lich king with decent gear and a cleric.

[wanton lintel]

that's what I was thinking. I wouldn't mind dying w/o a portal if I was able to save some of my stuff

[white cliff]

Cleanse has entered the chat.

[stray saffron]

yeah but that kinda beats the point to get out and would just save your good stuff, leave some scavenging for the rats

[smoky yoke]

lol cleanse when was op in previous playtest due to a bug

immune to the swarm lol

but was a bug rip

immune to the swarm forever

[stray saffron]

wait that's an issue? that little damage tick that you can just tank for a decent long time. as a rogue i navigated almost half the goblin cave and stole the final portal someone was puppy guarding as bait without losing even half

[smoky yoke]

no but it was cool

but cleanse it is very nice still
for b3 also for bosses ect

[white cliff]

That’s called gear insurance, not a fan.

[stray saffron]

i've played cleric the least, what things did cleanse help with?

[gloomy cradle]

@twin wadi circle closing sends you to title screen?

[wintry wind]

In my head, it's more about forcing players who want to ambush Bossers into proactive moves instead of just waiting nearby like fat lamers

[white cliff]

Yeah that’s for sure an issue in HR.

[smoky yoke]

not a fan too
game meant to be unforgiving

but maybe some compensation if you get killed by cheaters in gold perhaps

in game there was a system where told you when cheaters you reported in game were banned

[rocky field]

Mostly for inferno bosses with lich giving you aids. As for pvp, cleanse is really not that useful, poison sure, fire sure, (or you can just heal). but atm, people aren't exactly slinging around debuffs so it's pretty useless atm. purple and blue aids circle

[stray saffron]

well yeah i more meant, where it helped vs the lich

[wintry wind]

Yup, you're not meant to get attached to gear.

Though why then crafted gear takes such a significant time investment is questionable...

really hope they look at that.

[smoky yoke]

yes progression in this game is mental in the end

tied to experiences and having fun

[stray saffron]

and cursing rngesus as he makes your nice new purple completely trash...i really need a cleansing or whatever it's called to get an "angel" away with my horrible luck

[wintry wind]

Definitely think this is where Bard will fill in a niche.

Does Cleanse work on Barb shouts at all?

[wanton lintel]

Shrine of luck --> Increase drop rates?

[rocky field]

His pdr shout probably, have I ever cleansed it when they're usually running at you, no. Imo, it'll be a lot more useful when bard is released who will prob have lots of debuffs

[old adder]

@stray saffron You be in here too much lmao

[wanton lintel]

More fashionable gear is always a good idea

@old adder me too

[stray saffron]

aren't we all in here too much?

[old adder]

Yes im here to spam the daily lmao Fix the trade system please! Takes over a hour to get fully slotted

[stray saffron]

yup and i'd be here to convince you that the trading is secundary to the game, could just go in without full gear and find some you need.

Even tho the player market does need a fix, it's not a priority (and they know it need fixing from the many other suggestions already made for it)

[rocky field]

It is a priority. Dev himself stated this in qna that he felt trade was a drag in his gameplay and they were going to prioritize on fixing it

You suggesting them to fix trade does nothing btw, they're already working on it

[wanton lintel]

this does assume that trading is the only proper way to gear up. this should not be the case

[stray saffron]

honestly i'm fine with there being no player trade. let me keep my cleric robe on my rogue. i want to infiltrate their ranks!

[wanton lintel]

^ cosplaying as another class should be viable with reasonable drawbacks (lack of proficiency in that armor)

would be funny

[stray saffron]

just a cloaked barbarian like a wizard, they turn around and your face twists in horror as they beat you with a stick

or the ultimate weapon and disguise...sword cane

[wintry wind]

I wouldn't mind no-trade if I could switch gear between my characters without a middleman. Super antiquated imo

[wanton lintel]

Or if merchants were more powerful

[signal iris]

How about no trade, no gear swap between characters. Only way to transfer gear is in the dungeons 😈

[left hornet]

that sounds toxic lmfao

[rose sandal]

Why have trading at all if merchants exist? Why don't the merchants act as the theoretical auction house? No items ever exist unless they are brought up from the dungeon, and merchants have same inventory for all players, which includes all items ever brought up from the dungeon?

[left hornet]

agreed ^ specially since trading over gear is basically who is quick enough. incorporate an auction house merchant where people can actually buy and sell gear from others. but siphoned through an npc outlet.

[tawdry musk]

theres literally millions of items for sale at a time across all markets, even considering the extreme number of merchants thats wayyyy too much

[wanton lintel]

I don't think "millions" is correct

[rose sandal]

Then it's just a matter of tuning loot drops, you could drop ingredients like iron ore, resin, glass shards, that merchants would buy and use to make torches, traps, etc, and the level of inventory of these resources could fuel quests.

[stray saffron]

but there would be an insane amount of gear being auctioned at the same time

[left hornet]

i like that idea, obv with some kinks to iron out. but that general direction adds a more fluent flow to the whole trading outlet ordeal. specially when it comes to craftables just adds another variable tbh.

[wintry wind]

One thought I had was that Quests could increase the odds of Merchants carrying higher quality items, or certain level of Rep to start having a chance to carry an item.

Example: Surgeon would require higher rep to start having x% chance of carrying Surgeon Kits

[stray saffron]

the only thing an auction house doesn't allow tho is item for item trading and bartering for a better prices

[wintry wind]

I dunno about breaking items into raw mats. I'd rather see something like Last Epoch, where it's shards for certain Attributes that you can then use with the Crafting Services to favor certain outcomes.

[rose sandal]

Imagine that you could check the merchants ebfore the dungeon and see what things they really wanted (We are low on glass for potion making, we need more iron, leather) so you take your info and choose what to bring up based on the buying prices quoted from the merchants.

[pallid vapor]

I get the whole live auction house idea, in that it makes the game feel more alive, but i just want to quickly post my items after a game and quickly get back into another one. It’s not great spending 5-10 minutes after every match selling stuff off

[wanton lintel]

Can have a trade chat in addition to the auction house, but auctioning is the main way stuff is sold.

[stray saffron]

yeah you'd more want either a player owned store where you can drop off your items for a fixed price and collect the money or put it on an auction house to let the price go up as someone is interested in it, and then you keep the trading channel for people who wants to barter or paid in silver coins or candy

[pallid vapor]

Yeah that would be nice. But I don’t think we’ll ever see an auction house. At least the improvements they’ve been making to the trading post have been good so far

[wanton lintel]

Like eBay has bidding and absolute value postings. That would be fair.

[wintry wind]

So the middle ground solution I like is from PoE:

Market stash tab where you can attach a note for your price tag or something short.

Then folks can search for anything, read the note, make an offer. When you can back from a Raid you can go through the offers and simply accept.

Maybe a small menu for active offers -- you put up the gold, but if you withdraw an offer at any point.

So sellers can keep playing the game instead of sitting in chat.

Main issue is buyers not getting their stuff immediately, but that's already gonna happen sitting in trade chat anyways.

[tulip venture]

whats the difference between suggestions that have a green border vs blue?

[rancid pebble]

green are more positive usually

[wintry wind]

Didn't even notice the borders

[rocky field]

Should be a guy indexxing reasonable highly voted suggestions and marking them green. It's not automatic

[deep jacinth]

Because it helps to have a place where you can get gear that you don't have to get from a market place even though they might be theoretically less cost effective sometimes. Also player choice.

Player don't always sell things you'd want either.

Players aren't going to want to loot low level gear as much that's just white to sell so you can have a vendor selling that

[brisk stream]

wtb ranger perk that lets you move and fire more rapidly than currently with at least 1 type of bow

https://youtu.be/BEG-ly9tQGk

[sullen heart]

someone mentioned something on reddit i wanted to discuss some possible downsides of. How about making it so you can only trade an item once? When you trade it, it becomes bound to the person to trade it to

[languid laurel]

it depends on the avenue they want to take to combat RMT

but its a strong option depending on the developers importance on loot and gold.

[pallid lichen]

Wouldn’t that get in the way of people who like to flip items, and make a profit.

[languid laurel]

It would, but is that an important function the devs want in their game? Versus say, combating RMT? It will be a lose/lose situation when dealing with goldsellers

[pallid lichen]

Yeah that’s fair. I personally just don’t care that much about RMT. It’s a good idea though.

[steady spoke]

What is RMT?

[quick blade]

Restricting the freedom of the players at the alter of "combating rmt" is foolish and disrespectful to the player your "customer".

Just look as Escape from tarkov!

[languid laurel]

I think anyone that RMT's in a game where you can lose your gear at any given moment is silly. I just don't want to see the spam in the trade channels.

[pallid lichen]

Real money trading

[covert stag]

New suggestion lets go

[languid laurel]

If people want to RMT and give me their loot when I kill them, I am all for it.

[quick blade]

Ironmace should instead follow the example set in Eve online and design systems where they can take a piece of the RMT money themselves.

[dawn raptor]

The irony is that bad players are going to be walking loot pinatas

[carmine current]

anyone know how much the base damage of zap is?

[weak vine]

bro the people that suggest "Add a monk!, Add A necromancer!" like ur literal bots thats been suggested 500000 times be creative

[wintry wind]

The people who suggest Monk are special kind of ick

[brisk stream]

if you want devs that combat rmt until thier game is almost not fun anymore go play tarkov RMT will always exist until you make the game not fun enough for people to bother rmting

[twilit void]

Make barbarians look more bulky

[covert stag]

Give us more muscles, also make us handsome, and give us moustaches for extra effect

[languid laurel]

I don't think they really have to do much to combat RMT. In a game were you lose gear constantly, its just a matter of tracking and investigating mass gold transactions...

[steady spoke]

20 damage and burns for 1 second according to wiki

[carmine current]

thanks.

[twilit void]

Need chest hair

[covert stag]

HOT chest hair.

[naive crag]

Does anyone know why my suggestion disappeared?

[sullen heart]

what do you mean you dont care about RMT? thats literally why everyone hacks

[twilit void]

You can only suggest 2 times

[mighty willow]

How does that prevent RMT? They just sell the items they get once anyway to get gold which they then trade for money.

[wintry wind]

And give barb a massive bulge

[calm garnet]

we need more microtransactions in full release

[rancid pebble]

need mustaches

[languid laurel]

Limits the gear pool and them flipping items from trade into real money. But no, doesn't stop them from getting the gear themselves and selling it.

[naive crag]

I only made 1 suggestion and it had 80 upvotes 10 downvotes and it disappeared I don't know why

[mighty willow]

#d-and-d-suggestions message

[twilit void]

It got approved, now wait until your wish is concede

[naive crag]

oh nice

[carmine current]

so i figured out why Zap hit so hard including with the burn. the calcuation is as follows to determine the amount of the damage at 0% magic resist and 0% increased magic damage and has +30 additional magic damage from gear. the below video confirms the calculations when you look at the stat and the damage numbers coming out.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hSUXQmOrQe0
initial hit of spell
(Base+added)x(multipliers to damage)=total damage
(20+30)x1.00=50
burn damage of spell with the extra duration burn perk
((Base+added)x(multipliers to damage))/(duration of burn)=(Burn damage per sec)x(duration of burn)= Total Damage of burn
((1+30)x1.05)/1=32.55x3.5=113.92 damage burn over the full duration
113.92+50=163.92 damage from 1 zap over 3.5 secs

[rancid pebble]

yep

[quick blade]

This is false. People cheat for many reasons. Blaming it all on RMT if foolish.

[white cliff]

What kind of false pretense is that? People have been cheating for years and years, it’s certainly not because of RMT.

Also who’s buying gold in a play test?

[sullen heart]

you can just look at which games have the most cheaters, the ones that cheaters can make money off cheating are it

[languid laurel]

That Narciss? player uploaded a video where one of his teammates what talking about buying 2k gold for a few Euros...

[sullen heart]

It's hard to know who genuinely doesn't know and cheaters trying to steer the argument in their favor with "RMT isn't that big of a problem" and "not that many people do it"

[dawn raptor]

SSF mode when

[carmine current]

#d-and-d-suggestions message

[placid elm]

((1+30)x1.05)/1=32.55x3.5 where is x3.5 come here?

[quick blade]

burn time

[languid laurel]

In a perfect world I would like no RMT to take place, and everyone play the game like it is. BUT, you also have to be realistic, how beneficial is RMT in a game like this? Its not like in WoW, where you obtain gear, and its yours forever. In a game like this, if you are buying gear with real money, you are more than likely going to be donating that to your next lobby, it will eventually snuff itself out... Simply tracking big gold transaction that don't include gear would be simpler than making sweeping game changes...

[carmine current]

@placid elm 1 sec base duration and 2.5 from the extra burn duration perk. the suggestion i made has it calculated a bit clearer for that

#d-and-d-suggestions message

[quick blade]

That zap example is the same reason why the poison damage on the rogue can become so huge.

[placid elm]

thx. liked

poison is what type of dmg?

[rancid pebble]

magic

[quick blade]

Problem with that is that Most of the damage from the burn spells came from burn damage.

[carmine current]

magic

[covert stag]

MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMAGIC

[quick blade]

Fireball was only do 10 splash damage at the end of playtest

[carmine current]

burn's default damage is 1. the issue with oneshots from wizards is entirely coming from the double dipping of teh base damage of the spell and the damage of the burn.

[quick blade]

It was almost more useful for the pushback effect at that point honestly.

[carmine current]

yes 10 + any additional damage. also if you hit the target with a fireball (the projectile), then it does the projectile damage and the splash damage both of which scale with additional magic damage, which then also scales with the burn. in that situation where a fireball hits directly it does triple dipping of teh addtional magic damage stat

[covert stag]

They should actually add Meteor Swarm to wizard, it would be so balanced.

[placid elm]

how to properly add suggestion .suggest text doesnt seem to work

[rancid pebble]

Thats how you do it, might be doing it wrong

[covert stag]

Also @tropic prawn And @bitter storm You just fear the stache's power

[carmine current]

@quick blade do you see nothing wrong with the damage output from +30 additional damage on a zap? if you do see an issue with it, what way to balance it do you think should be implemented?

[tropic prawn]

Huh?

[placid elm]

there is no counter to 120 zaps and ima main wizz

[covert stag]

The barb stache is too powerful, your trying to shut it down arent you! The barb will be hot, mark my words!
Or atleast he'll have a really nice stache
HE AGREES, ONE OF US, ONE OF US

[tropic prawn]

your thing is just shitposting and wasting space. but yes he should have a mustache

[bitter storm]

+1

[wintry wind]

How do you tell if it was approved?

OH...You meant as in from #1048762118255673428 to #d-and-d-suggestions

I'm actually stupid

[carmine current]

that is why i suggested somethign that i genuenly think would fix the issue.

I would like to know what concerns those that disliked it have with it. @quick blade @rancid pebble @autumn fossil @pastel river @blazing acorn @pallid crest @buoyant glacier @granite plinth
#d-and-d-suggestions message

[covert stag]

It gets marked green aswell, I think it means either its overwhelmingly positive, or a mod/admin checked through it

[pallid crest]

Why am I being @‘d lol

[carmine current]

that doesnt mean approved i think it means its liked enough to be looked at

[languid laurel]

@buoyant glacier didnt they nerf the slider already? I swear I turned my brightness to 10, then one day i noticed it was dark and the slider only went to 3.

[buoyant glacier]

All I know for sure is that there are clips everywhere on Reddit and elsewhere that have the entire dungeon be plainly visible with absolutely no light sources or rather places that I know to be pitch black are plainly visible

[pallid crest]

Oh. I voted against as I think adding another stat roll option on gear that very few classes can benefit from is not what I think the game needs. I think we need less stat roll options

[buoyant glacier]

I don't like the idea of more roles on gear that are very specifically niche rolls that will rarely benefit a wider variety of classes.

[carmine current]

i wanted to know what issue you had with the suggestion i made. to have consturctive criticism

[languid laurel]

Yea, some of the rolls they have now should be removed, tiered, and values for rarity should be adjusted.

[pallid crest]

I have no issue with nerfing Zap burn or changing the formula or w/e. I just didn’t like the stat solution

[carmine current]

fair enough. i suppose that i didnt really consider that when making the suggestion. do you at least agree that double dipping in the sense i mentioned is an issue?

[twin delta]

thoughts on this suggestion i made #d-and-d-suggestions message

[pallid crest]

Personally, I don’t have enough experience playing Wiz or against that level of geared Wiz to know if it’s really an issue. Could be, I just don’t know

[twin delta]

spooky, a ping but no message

[pallid crest]

I don’t think it would be technically possible to do this? Isn’t it monitor settings?

[carmine current]

fair enough. i just assumed most people would consider the damage output of 163 from ranged body shot to be a bit absurd, when +30 additional damage on gear isnt even that much. its +3 additonal on each piece a wizard can wear and all of it can be green. while if you take the same amount of weapon damage and put on a purple long bow it will only deal comperable damage with a headshot.

[twin delta]

it's an in-game setting last i checked. monitor settings can be detected by the game as well, similar to if it's being recorded or streamed. it's how games like undertale can call you out for having an audience.

[pallid crest]

Some people just genuinely need a slider to play the game as well. You don’t wanna punish players for using an accessibility option you gave them

[covert stag]

Cant wait to toggle unlimited brightness mode and become a sun in the dungeon

[pallid crest]

Yeah that number seems too high to be balanced. Even with unique and legendary gear

[twin delta]

fair point, but the issue is a person who needs to adjust their brightness doesn't go more than 65% on the meter, and if they do then they need to fix their monitor instead of the game at that point. it's like when the HD tv's came out and people boosted contrast to max to get the shiny pixel highlights and they can't see crap on the screen because of it

[covert stag]

Also fair point, however... UNLIMITED POWER!

[twin delta]

i also think it'd be funny to see people actively go max brightness in order to be a furry in the dungeon. there was a guy in goblin caves on the last day who was howling over voip whenever he saw a player so it's already a thing

[pallid crest]

In a world where we are all able gamers I totally understand the frustration, but everyone has different requirements for what they need to play the game. If 65% is really the threshold, why not just limit the slider there, and tell any players who need it higher to play to get bent?

[quick blade]

@twin delta the glowing eyes thing for night vision is cool, should be a future class that has that. Maybe a druid perk or something. But attempting to combat people who turn up their personal display settings, When no two setups are the same is foolish. 1 persons monitor will be different that another's. And lets not forget the $2000 monitors that let you make all the adjustments at the monitor itself.

[pallid crest]

@remote shuttle just FYI, a limiting stash was an intentional design choice from Ironmace

[twin delta]

not limiting the brightness lets them still play the game how they want or need. just make it a trade-off for the people who obviously exploit it. simple as that.

you really can also just have a script that checks monitor settings that the game is being ran through, because that data is still known by the adjusted output/input between the monitor/tv and the graphics card.

[remote shuttle]

Well it doesn't work. Players (including me) get too wealthy and can't hold gold anymore, so they start stashing it on other accounts or have friends make characters specifically just to act as a bank for their friends.

[twin delta]

though i don't know if that's the case with a 4k tv, since i haven't looked too deep into how those operate on the diminutive level

[carmine current]

yeah im fine with a limited stash. i just wish we could store gold a bit more compactly. since i like to have 3 sets of gear at all times along with potions, bandages, lockpicks, and campfires ready to be used.

[pallid crest]

obviously exploit it

This is the issue part. If you draw a line somewhere and start punishing players, you are going to punish some non-exploitive players too. Either don’t let the players slide it that high at all (and tell the small population of players who needed that to play a la something else), or leave it imo

[twin delta]

when you address a common problem and combat it with an edge-case of casualty then it's not much of an argument to make. like saying if the game had a harder level then less people would be able to clear it reliably.

[pallid crest]

1. Everything was accelerated for the play test
2. Even with a slower rate and bigger stash, you’re still going to fill it. Adding more slots doesn’t really fix the core issue

[carmine current]

yeah i had that issue last test as well. after a while I had about 9-10 rows of candies and made an alt with my friend so we could swap the currency to another character.

[pallid crest]

It’s worth considering I mean. The percentage of players doing as you describe is also probably pretty small.

[remote shuttle]

It's just ridiculous that a game specifically designed around looting and collecting items severely limits the amount of loot and items you can have. Like there was a point where my barb had 4 purple felling axes that I wanted to keep for future runs, but didn't have the space and nobody would buy them, so you're forced to delete items or stash them elsewhere to avoid wasting it. Just add the ability to upgrade stash by like 30 slots for a couple hundred gold.

[pallid crest]

So what happens when you have 30 more slots and those are also full? What would you as a player do differently in that scenario vs now?

[remote shuttle]

Buy more slots, I didn't state you were limited on upgrades

[remote shuttle]

Would also give you something to actually work towards other than horde loot and be a chad. The game needs some form of upgrade or progression system, because just surviving naturally you run out of stuff to do. Like once you've done high roller boss 5 or 6 times you are just playing the game to kill people

[twin delta]

if it's really small then the 76 people i've spectated after killing me between caves and tombs who don't use torches ever yet can navigate in the dark perfectly fine, and catch people hiding in shadows from across the room like they were fully lit, is an alarmingly unfortunate pool of unique named players i've encountered. 76 people encountered through 435 runs and that's only the people i've watched until the end of the round. they're usually in teams doing this. but the individuals alone is 5.72% an encounter rate, that are confirmed to be using the exploit

[pallid crest]

I’m not sure (for the sake of discussion) that having unlimited storage would really be better for the game. Making choices of what’s important to keep adds some level of investment into what you own

[compact plinth]

limited storage makes wiping a bigger deal. Better for the game

[carmine current]

i get it trust me. i carried 3 full sets at a time in my stash and then only had about 6 or so rows to use before I needed to transfer it to other charcters. I think they need to add something to condense gold further down other then just the 50g pouches. i would like an expensive box or something that costs maybe 200-300g and stores 2000 or 3000g for a 3x3 space

[remote shuttle]

An example here, Tarkov cases. a tarkov weapons case is no small feat, it takes like 50-100 hours to actually unlock it and only saves you the space of like 5 weapons. Adding small things like that, that are achievable by someone who is having to stash stuff on alt accounts would be good.

[pallid crest]

As someone who has a couple hundred hours in Tarkov, I think it just makes the stash experience worse and more complicated personally. One of the better parts of DaD (imo) is the limited stash and decision making

[remote shuttle]

That's exactly what i'm thinking, adding like "chests" or "loot bags" that hold more space than they take up would be the way to go. And it would be expensive asf to obtain one but rewarding when you do

[remote shuttle]

Then we agree to disagree because in my opinion the last thing an EXTRACTION LOOTING game should do is restrict the amount of loot you can collect drastically, and unless they plan on restricting the use of alternate accounts that's what people are going to do until they do something about it.

[quick blade]

Hold the discussion on stash size, you are are forgetting or are unaware of the storage case items. Devs have commented that they may introduce larger money cases ect. No real reason to get worked up until the devs have made decision on loot containers?

[pallid crest]

This suggestion just comes to a difference of opinion honestly. Some want larger storage so they can have plenty of kits/items ready to go for next mission, others like it smaller and more simple. I wouldn’t say one is clearly better than the other, they just accomplish different things

[remote shuttle]

It's good to have community discussions like this, we aren't arguing just stating points

[carmine current]

do you think they should at least add further ways to condense gold? for instance an expensive 3x3 chest that stores 3000g instead of the pouches 50g?

[twin delta]

if i go with the assumption that the entire team was doing this (because they all seemed equally clairvoyant regarding things in the dark, refusing to use torches, etc) then the number of players using the exploit skyrockets to 167. so quick math of 435 games with an average of say 15 people per lobby between caves and tombs... that's a 38% overall density of games encountered with players using the exploit, though it's only 2.55% of the estimated population playing the game

[pallid crest]

Yeah I think better gold storage wouldn’t impact too much. I got to the point where half my stash was gold bags. I don’t want my gold and my items to fight for slots too much. I think some friction there is healthy, but I also wouldn’t want a money box that has infinite gold storage or something

[compact plinth]

could add a banker to hold your coins

[remote shuttle]

that'd be sick

[carmine current]

i also found that sometimes I would buy expensive rings that were easily worth like 1000g just to save space and most of the time just sold them at a discount of like 800-900g when i needed the gold

[buoyant glacier]

Yes. I do think skills with dot mechanics shouldn't get to double dip as hard as they do.

[pallid crest]

Yeah this could be really cool. Goblin banker to hold coins or items, but charges a high fee to either withdraw or deposit (not both. No reason to ding you twice)

[twin delta]

not just a banker, a smuggler who hangs out in the dungeon and lets you dump a trade block worth of gear, gold, treasures that get added to your stash maybe? in-dungeon insurance that you have to pay for maybe. makes it worth bringing a coin purse into the dungeon then

[quick blade]

If the stash size were bigger you would vendor less items. I think stash size is fine even though mine was almost always full to the point where it caused delayed in starting the next match.

[wanton lintel]

If you condense gold too much, it may incentivize hoarding too much. Would you consider this an issue? I might.

[remote shuttle]

Yeah having to hop through loops like that is just irritating lol. I would just buy longbows since they sold for so much

[pallid lichen]

I just noticed that this idea would also get rid of people moving loot to other accounts.

[carmine current]

yeah i originally though about that, but then i ran into the issue that those take up a ton of space. instead i opted to get a 1x1 item worth a lot

[twin delta]

rings and heart candies were the big efficient trade items

[buoyant glacier]

Pretty sure that the limited stash tab was for the playtests and not intended to be how it works in the live game. I will be extremely disappointed if there isn't a way for me to horde everything I ever bring out of the dungeon

[remote shuttle]

loot goblin gang rise up

[pallid crest]

It was an intentional design decision. It’s of course not finalized, but the idea is that you think about what to keep and throw

[carmine current]

yeah with the way it works though i just dont see an easy fix unless they remove the scaling on the DOT or at the very least put a negative multiplier to additional magic damage for it. that way the dot only scales a portion of the flat damage

[wanton lintel]

Gold hoarding actually applies to real-life economics: If hoarding gold is incentivized, then lower-value items would lose even more value, and higher-value items would gain even more value. This may be unhealthy for the economy.

[twin delta]

like 200g per 10 heart candies, and most rings being at minimum 200g even during the fire sale

[wheat raptor]

stash size=fine nerf damage scaling and damage in general

[carmine current]

well the issue is what is there to spend the gold on? you dont have enough space to get more then 3 extra sets, buying unqiues named items is a drastic increase in gold like it goes from being 1 or 2k for a gg legendary to like 20k for a unique named item

[pallid crest]

Yeah even with slower rates of exp and gear acquisition on release, people will eventually get there. The gear discrepancy is just too high atm I think as well

[wheat raptor]

right now with almost every single class in full gear you WILL 1 shot somebody else in FULL gear

[remote shuttle]

I think FIRST AND FOREMOST they gotta improve shields and blocking. That sh!t is garbage fr

[carmine current]

i actually think it will be more of an issue at launch. if it takes longer to get geared, players that get there faster will punish others that couldnt more and more.

[pallid crest]

They did say they were looking at a seasonal cycle where everything is wiped, but who knows how that will look and it will always be the same issue. Players who put in more time should have better gear which puts them at an advantage in combat 100%, but right now it's a bit too much

[wanton lintel]

You can make the economy prioritize whatever you want by tipping the scales, but it is a fine balance between drop rate, gold generation/acquisition, and ROI per gear. If gold acquisition is very strong and white/green gear is not worth it, then gold hoarding will become meta and may contribute to excessive gear-inequality among players.

[autumn fossil]

Reworking the ratios that zap gets from +magic damage just makes more sense and then wizards dont have to choose to limit their spell book with what gear they are wearing. IE if they do what you suggest then you run the DoT (damage over time) gear you wouldnt really want to run spells like chain lightning and would get pigeonholed into only running curtain spells with others. How it is now you can run any combination of spells you want. I like that design more.

[pallid crest]

If we go down the path of adding more secondary stats, then I'd wanna see some way to pay to change them in some way I think. Otherwise there's just too many irrelevant stats for people

[carmine current]

fair enough. i mentioned to Cifee and Sterson that I didnt realize that. I plan on revising the suggestion to remove adding a different stat. however I think that the damage scaling from the additional magic damage on DOT should either be remvoed or at the very least have a seperate mulitplier applied to it (for example only 10% or 20% of the additional magic damage applies to DOT)

[quick blade]

The issue with nerfing the wiz more is that even with +30 gear everything still 1 shots you.

[carmine current]

also i just dont think that wizards should be building around the burn itself. i dont think there should a situation where the burn is deal that much more then the base spell.

[carmine current]

well if you fully remove the scaling from the burn with +30 it wouldnt. at that point it would 2 shot you but it wouldnt 1 shot you with like 1.5x the amount needed

[quick blade]

Ranger is the only class that actually needs to be adjusted. And that's mainly because ranged damage project at high speed will always be op. The slow debuff you get when you take damage can make it almost impossible to close and engage a ranger.

[dawn raptor]

"class that counters me is ... le bad"

[quick blade]

But how this can be balanced I do not know it's not a damage number issue. It's a combat design issue.

[carmine current]

i disagree. the ranger has plenty of ways to mitigate the damage. while wizard doesnt. on top of the reason that wizard gets more then 2x effectivness from flat damage rolls, while rangers and others only get 1x the benefit.

on top of that every class other then cleric can use ranged. you just have to have throwing weapons for some

[remote shuttle]

You aren't meant to be able to take every fight and win. Sometimes disengaging a ranger and forcing them to fight in ideal situations for you (close hallways) is better than trying to fight them when they have the advantage. Each character comes with their own advantages, an open room is ideal for a ranger, but tight, enclosed spaces are great for a barb. Just because a class is strong doesn't mean they should be nerfed

[wanton lintel]

Ranger almost always loses in melee combat

not fighting ranger at range seems to be good wisdom

[twin delta]

spear ranger is the skill check tbh. if the ranger knows how to block with the spear you're gonna be at a mild disadvantage due to spear having decent mobility, good range, and a fast 1-2 stab at the start of its combo which is enough to drop barbs and fighters who got softened up on approach. otherwise you just gotta duck one thrust and land a good hit to drop 'em

[carmine current]

true but when some classes get the point where they just kill you in every situtation. then its an issue. for instance i mentioned earlier with +30 additional magic damage a zap can deal 163 damage. thats not a fair amount of damage and there isnt a ton of counter play to it other then being outside of the range entirely.

[remote shuttle]

Oh yeah wizard is a bit overtuned for sure. There isn't enough magic resist in the game presently to justify the amount of damage he can dish out. A good wizard can literally win in every situation you put them in, its dumb

[deep jacinth]

Ranger can win in close combat I don't get why people think they can't they have the shotgun skill where they can unload three headshots and drop someone if they didn't waste it in the fight. Sure it's not ideal and they don't have as many options but they're not out of the fight until they're dead.

[twin delta]

cleric takes less than a third of that damage with protection from evil and perseverance. having magic resist rating at 50 alongside a will stat above 15 means you're taking about half damage from the burn on zap due to how the dot works

[remote shuttle]

Each arrow used in that ability has its damage severely dropped and you have to be smashing into their face to actually hit all of the shots, which is obviously not ideal since you're about to waste 5 arrows and have to reload or switch weapons. Using that perk over rations or literally anything else is most of the time not worth unless youre farming boss.

[carmine current]

yeah thats fair. i think giving more magic res is fine. even nerfing the dot would go a long way. I just hope at the very least in the next test they add a protection potion for magic damage though. since I think that is the least intrusive thing they could add to the game to balance it out a bit.

[deep jacinth]

For the record we're not taking about multishot are we that wasn't what I was referring to.

[twin delta]

damage drop per arrow is only 5% before limb adjustment on multishot. so you on average get 2 arrows in torso at 95%, and two in limbs at 80% (which is enough to drop barbs from 3/4th health

also cleric can legit just block the spell on approach. means the burn doesn't even take effect because it requires a direct hit to land, since it has the same trigger as poison and bleed being on direct damage

[carmine current]

okay but 1/3 of 163 is 54 so its then just a 2 shot and a cleric has no way to combat the ranged discrepency.

[quick blade]

The ranger class has no disadvantages, and is still and will likely remain the only op class. It's not a simple thing to balance. And I don't expect to see it anywhere near balanced until more classes and class features are available.

[deep jacinth]

It's disadvantages are not that severe to where oh I wish I didn't pick this class. Quick shot will still drop someone if they get close and if you get enough shots on someone before they get to you they're dead. The enclosed spaces is a weakness but do you know who else has problems with that is mage but mage is good. The weaknesses aren't equal in value just because every class has them

[twin delta]

lol ranger class has no disadvantages, except that if you build for full prep then you're limited on what options you can choose, they rely on using bear traps to deal with their counters and those are limited in supply AND expensive to buy from woodsman, and anything you swap out from the prep build means you become weaker at what you're strongest with. spear and crossbow traits replace either your headshot, bow damage, hearing, or trapmaster perk which each lets you body the shit out of wizards, rogues, and barbs

[carmine current]

I think if you arent talking about perfect gear, then thats not true. a ranger without armor pen cant really do much against a tank fighter. for instance last test my fighter could easily tank 3 multishots from an all ranger squad and still have about half hp left. the reason being is that I had full plate and tons of projectile resistance. now if those rangers went for armor pen instead of weapon damage i would be super dead. but its just that damage reduction counters flat damage and penetration counters reduction. though that is only the case because armor and projectile res go hand in hand with reducing arrows.

[twin delta]

ranger against tank fighter shoots the fighter in the legs because nobody takes breakthrough skill due to it being the worse version of sprint. ranger flees the fight. fighter 'wins' ground and the room if they can apply the pressure to the ranger, but the ranger is still alive and a threat.

that's the matchup tbh

[carmine current]

yeah its basically it in a nutshell. fighter does what he pleases and then moves on. the same could be said for rogues. if your a fighter you arent catching them if they just run the whole time.

[twin delta]

the one time i met a fighter using sprint and breakthrough i legit was scared. nothing yah do stops them, and bear traps get broken. was more terrifying than hulk barbarian team 'cause you at least know the buffs are being cast

[deep jacinth]

Rangers are not challenged in the same way other classes are when they have the advantage that's the issue. Every class can fight in melee range even rangers can with a spear. What are you going to do a ranger that's not at least mid range there's nothing you can do throw a fireball I guess.

[remote shuttle]

Does breakthrough remove the slow debuff you receive from being hit by something?

[carmine current]

breakthrough is such a troll skill though. like less then 1% of players will take it. so its just not ever likely to happen lol

[twin delta]

breakthrough removes all slowing effects, including those caused by poison, getting hit in the legs, bear traps (they remove movement by giving you 100% move speed penalty as a 'slow;) and adrenaline rush reducing your attack AND move speed. all of it gets nixed

it also nixes all effects present at activation.

[carmine current]

yeah but the skill goes on cd once its used. so it only stops 1

[quick blade]

Let compare the ranger to other classes,
Ranger vs Rogue ranger can see footprints nullifying the rogues advantage.

Ranger vs Wizard ranger can 1 shot Wizard from a long distance with high velocity projectile. Wizard can magic missile which is useless past a few feet since unless you are unaware they can be easily dodged or blocked. In close arrows and fireballs do about the same damage with arrows tending to do more.

Ranger vs Barb or cleric Ranger can basically kite these classes without and risk. between having a higher movement speed and constantly applying the slow debuff to anything you hit.

Ranger vs fighter Fighter can try to sprint though the arrows. Fighter can use ranged weapons though with lower dps output.

This does not include rangers being able to go toe to toe in melee with the spear or the fact that they have the only way to freeze a target in place. The clerics ability to do this is almost useless.

[deep jacinth]

Ranger vs barb isn't correct though how do you kite a class that throws a throwing axe at you then you drop to the floor they still have an edge though I won't deny that

[twin delta]

ranger vs barb is a batman needs time to prepare to win reliably. it's a 7:3 matchup in favor of barb otherwise due to rage and fear shout being two detriments against ranger between the speed boost and reduced physical damage output. thrown axes are also aimed at your torso, often hitting legs. server ping means you see the axe and it's too late to crouch jump out of it by then as well.

[quick blade]

Throwing ax is vastly outranged by bow.

[deep jacinth]

Doesn't matter. Barbs pressure a ranger even though their weapon is better because they can be one shot by it. You have to be in a good enough range to do that though. If you're not close enough they do nothing to any player that's not a potato.

[twin delta]

throwing axe has a 35m effective range, which is the same as recurve. effective means you can hit your target at all when aiming at their chest. basically hitting the legs. the longbow has a 60m effective range, so that one is outranged by throwing axes

[carmine current]

your not understanding the rogues and barbs have ranged weapons. both have throwing weapons. the best players take near half an inventory full of them per high roller run. and wizard does vastly more damage even with a splash fireball if they are spec with additional magic damage due to the burn double dipping. fighters dont need to deal the same damage since rangers will deal almost no damage to them. cleric is the only one you didnt mentioned but that I think is hard countered in every way by ranger

[deep jacinth]

Ranger still has an advantage vs barb I wouldn't say barb counters ranger but at mid range they can check rangers but not outright counter them.

[quick blade]

The closer they are to you the easier it is to shoot them with a bow!

In the entire playtest I was killed by axes once. and hit by knives maybe twice.

Axes are more common because fighter also throws them.

The thrown weapons are not a counter to bows.

[twin delta]

if the ranger catches the barb on hearing, they have advantage. if the barb manages to catch the ranger first, the barb has advantage. in an even field it's a 7:3 matchup in favor of barb because ranger doesn't have time to prep in that environment, and barb can clear the distance a ranger has to backtrack and shoot from before the ranger uses all their arrows out of the quiver

[deep jacinth]

Idk what kind of barbs you were up against then. Because they were common especially in high roller. Even if they don't kill you they force you to stop for a second and move allowing the barb to get closer to you.

[carmine current]

im not saying they are a counter. you just didnt mention them at all. if you are mid range vs a barb he will kill you in 1-2 throwing axes depending on if he is geared.

[twin delta]

those are headshots being landed on axes, and at that point i'm questioning why you didn't duck when seeing the arc that high. like the arm telegraphs how high they're aiming

[deep jacinth]

They're an approachment tool but if you really fuck up you're dead to them.

[quick blade]

The throwing weapons are more useful at slowing down a running opponent when you hit them, something the bow is superior at still.

Barb has to headshot you with the axe.

Even when playing wizard that was the case for me. unless the barb headshot me the could land all three and I was still alive.

[deep jacinth]

Idk what barb throws axes at you and doesn't try to get in though. I find it hard to believe you live three even when a barb has rage and axe prof even other damage perks possibly

[carmine current]

but that isnt against a properly geared player. it doesnt matter what a default or basic kit player is wearing. the game should be balanced around the mid to highend. if a barb takes weapon damage on each piece of gear he can easily hit for a 100 damage throwing axe

[twin delta]

throwing weapons have a -10 movespeed, while even survival bow is -20? -25? barb also doesn't have to headshot you with the axe to 'kill' you. they just need to land the hit to slow you by another 15. if they hit the legs you're at -30 movespeed in addition to whatever you have applied. then the barb uses rage to get +20% move speed and they can swing on you before your next arrow is shot

[quick blade]

And ranger has like 2x the ehp of wiz!

[dawn raptor]

just throw a fireball at them lmaooooooo

[carmine current]

thats not ture unless you are talking about the healing from teh consumables. which really shouldnt be. in the top end gear every character in the game just one shots each other. by that i mean from 100% to 0%.

[deep jacinth]

There's just no way you kite a barb like they're an npc unless they're terrible that's all I'm saying

[quick blade]

And a ranger with weapon damage can headshot for 200dmg.

Fireball does 10 splash damage.

[twin delta]

if you kite a barb once, they learn how to not be kited again. they'll either sneak and ambush or actually learn how to sidestep, duck, dive, dip, weave, and dodge

200 total damage ignoring the 25% headshot reduction from the base helmet and additional physical damage reduction that on average reduces that 200 to 45.

[deep jacinth]

I do agree that's my biggest issue with the game. The scaling does too much for every class and everyone just becomes paper.

[carmine current]

yeah did you not see my calcuation of zap. with +30 additional you turn 21 damage to 163. its nearly the same for fireball. you know which is easier to land between a fireball splash and an arrow its the fireball splash every day of the week

[quick blade]

You run faster than them, just run away. Your not kiting them like the lich lol. Your running until they give up chasing you and then shooting them in the back.

[deep jacinth]

Why wouldnt you play a class like ranger if every class no matter what they're wearing gets eaten alive by people geared to kill. You might as well maximize your kill potential unless you're handing out support

[twin delta]

fireball doesn't have a burn effect on it, and i'm surprised you're talking like it does

[carmine current]

it does https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hSUXQmOrQe0
watch the video you obviously didnt pay attention when using it or getting hit by it

[deep jacinth]

How the hell are you going to run from a barb who pulls axes out unless you dodge all of them they're not going to only have three unless they're poor. Using only base kit shit is literally only for noobs.

[twin delta]

a skilled ranger learns how to turn around and pivot jump to shoot backwards while fleeing, which is a rough as hell skill to pick up.

[deep jacinth]

Yeah I do agree that is a problem to the game. Ranger is just too fast but if he wasn't people would whine about how their class is too weak

[carmine current]

regardless the whole point is that @quick blade didnt really consider all the options that classes have for counterplay proablly due to not seeing them. for instance in normal runs i barely ever saw barbs throwing more then 6 axes. in high roller they have like 30+

[deep jacinth]

Barb having that many throwing axes at a time is an issue not saying they should only have three but when they throw like 7 at one person just to kill them doesn't seem balanced when they're missing so much

I still think it should be some kind of incorporated facet to the character rather than just something you can buy and spam

[twin delta]

agreed

also that's footage on a high latency connection which causes a bug where burn damage and normal damage get split because you can see the magic damage numbers including the burn damage on zap in the initial hit when they don't show up as a tick after the hit. something to note is when you get hit with a burn effect it shows up as a status on your character, and fireball on low latency, low ping connections doesn't even read a burn tick on direct hit. HOWEVER on high latency the blast will detect against limbs which is why you'll see the damage numbers around the arms and post of the dummy when the damage tick check is made. essentially it's counting the blast damage as a fake burn on that connection

[carmine current]

tbh im fine with it tbh since they are a consumable. im just glad they removed the death farming for axes from playtest 3. since people would put the axes they start with in the stash then go into a run then leave, then do that on repeate until they had an entire stash of axes. now you cant take your default kit and put it in stash

[deep jacinth]

When people really want to win they just bring them all because it's worth it and it's not very balanced at all. Having 6 slots of throwing axes and 9 in your pockets is not very balanced even more if you fill up your other pockets and move heslthing when you need it

[twin delta]

i'm a bit sad that i can't put other peeps' default items into my stash though. kept getting wizard protection potions and couldn't store 'em after a run

[quick blade]

I never found throwing weapons to be a consistent threat.

[carmine current]

no whenever i got hit by a fireball i got a debuff icon showing i was burning. the damage is always seperated between different instances of damage. when you see the base fireball it does 1 damage same with zap that is because default burn is 1 damage. additional magic damage however gets added onto that as well as the base spell damage.

[deep jacinth]

They're good if you don't think so I think that's 4d chess. You're definitely not playing the same dark and darker I am at that point. Even if they don't hit they useful for getting to your enemy.

[gray vessel]

They are nasty wdym, the movement slow is crushing

[twin delta]

if you never found throwing weapons as a threat, then you only faced people who never used them well. unlike arrows they can just be picked up mid-chase to throw again immediately as well.

[quick blade]

Not true.

[carmine current]

well he already mentioned that he almost never saw barbs using them. that to me seems like he played way more normal then highroller. since high roller barbs in decked out gear try to protect their gear by giving themselves a ranged option

[deep jacinth]

If no one ever hits you with one then that's an issue with their aim because there's no way youre dodging every axe thrown at you on reaction from any distance

[twin delta]

not even normal. that screams goblin caves to me. never would see a barb in caves throw an axe, and if they did they didn't throw it well. tombs i'd see half the barbs tossing axes and half that time they actually would land a hit.

[quick blade]

I specifically said that I only died to them once. They were very commonly used just far less threatening than any bow user.

[deep jacinth]

Throwing axes are amazing in goblin caves watch that guy who hardcore barbed to 20. I will never be convinced that there's trash that's for sure.

[carmine current]

honestly i didnt do goblin caves that much since other then the boss i found the loot lacking heaviliy. they had the same pool of loot, just a lot less quanitity of the loot.

[twin delta]

if you were a rat rogue or ranger the loot pool is significantly better because you can reliably get to the good chests in the corners of the map. the locked chests regularly have purples in them, or at least two blues as well. but yeah otherwise caves were real weak outside of the troll

[carmine current]

well thats prob my problem then since i was a fighter main this test.

[deep jacinth]

I don't get what people say about goblin caves having poor loot. It feels like I get much better loot from each individual thing I loot than low roller at least. You're commonly getting greens more so than low roller and blues as well.

Unless you're dipping into hell and doing that which makes sense why'd you get stronger loot there

[carmine current]

its because the pool of loot is the same as the normal dungeon. however there are far less chests, destructables, and no way to further get better loot by going to hell.

[twin delta]

if you can't break barrels or clear rooms fast, you're getting a lot of greys and can't kill mummies before another player rolls in and kills you first. so you need to have a weapon that can break barrels quick, kill mobs fast, and the awareness to avoid unnecessary fights. the last one is the hardest for people to grasp for some reason. i blame the bloodlust

also the good loot being stuck between 10 chests in the map, and they're all near the edges in a map that often centers itself near the middle early on. it's a tough break compared to tombs having 35 good chests with less than half stuck in corners or edges of the dungeon.

[quick blade]

Goblin caves had great loot!

[deep jacinth]

I don't think the loot pool is the same it doesn't feel remotely the same. Idk where you got that idea. Why would different creatures have the same loot pool that isn't even true in the castle.

[carmine current]

its not about better loot its about the quanitity of loot. for instance the bat room in normal has about the same loot that you would get for almost your entire goblin cave run in a single room. the library also has a ton. sure in certain rooms in normals it was comparable. though the best rooms in normals just had more quanitity then goblin cave

[twin delta]

caves also has only 6 mummy spawns compared to tombs having 36, and that's where the best mob loot drops imo since they're not a threat aside from just being big HP walls. if you're talking about the pyramid that's also only the surface of the room having pretty much the same chest pulls as goblin caves. if you go underneath you get the good chests that would be like one locked chest in caves

[slate tartan]

Cave troll definitely drops better

[deep jacinth]

But the goblin loot seemed higher quality I'm pretty sure I'm not imagining it

[carmine current]

the devs literally said the pool was the same, in the dev q & a, right before playtest 4.

[twin delta]

one cave troll versus 4-6 mummies in a room means the cave troll loses out by overall. also mummies have no threatening attacks

[slate tartan]

You think you're gonna get better loot from 6 mummies than one cave troll?

[deep jacinth]

Ok yeah I do think very specific hand picked rooms beat it out but not generally, plus goblin games are quicker

[twin delta]

on average, yes you do get better loot between 6 rolls on mummies than one cave troll.

goblin games are quicker for sure. you got static exit for reliability and the first portals are almost always in ear shot

[carmine current]

yeah i also disagree with that cave troll is 1 guarenteed purple, with potental for legendaries. and if you take the time to open the door behind it there is another guarenteed purple

[quick blade]

Cave troll dropped good loot so did the treasure room behind it. But the goblin caves map itself was loaded. All the dense ore in the mines. piles of trinkets in rooms. barrels and crates, the bat room.

[slate tartan]

Have you done the boss? Can get 3 purples and even orange. What mummies are you killing where you get 3 purples in 6 kills?

[gray vessel]

Plus the trolls blood is very good, there's no way you think 4-6 gems is better with a small chance at rings

[twin delta]

i've done the boss sadly only 10 times and my luck on it's been sub-par quite easily if it's reliable purples and even oranges. i'd get 2 blues and a green on the 7/10

[carmine current]

i dont think many people mined since the mining takes to long and the gear for blue mining sucks. also the bat room is just way worse then the bat room in normal runs.

[spice pawn]

combat might be janky as hell, but it'd be a dream if they could add in bare-minimum platforming (parkour / climbing, aka baby Assassin's Creed mechanics). that, and swimming

[deep jacinth]

There's no way goblin caves is less profitable than a low roller unless people are bringing in drops that make it better sans if you do a good hell run on top of it

[slate tartan]

Loot room weapon is a guaranteed purple

[spice pawn]

also wonder how the game would play if there was environmental + magic element interplay like Divinity Original Sin 2 (except in DnD it'd be less cumbersome because it's not turn based but real-time)

[twin delta]

mining in general is also real rough. people hear you mining from over a room away, and the spots to mine are often in high traffic zones

talking like shooting a hanging oil lantern to drop the flame into a fire pool? i'd like it

[deep jacinth]

Must be nice to be an agil class and get instant ores though becausr the mining isn't str based which makes absolutely zero sense

[carmine current]

it depends on the rooms you are looting. i guarentee you if you compare teh bat rooms the normal maps is better. if you compare libraby to the rooms that have treasure sitting out the library is just better. if you compare the center of maze to any area in goblin cave its better since it has 5 unlocked lions head chests

[twin delta]

nah even as ranger it's a 10 second mining animation per cycle. it's hella rough. i'd go rat ranger and use a full 3 stacks of the basic healing pots to mine out in the swarm in caves to get 12 ores per run. which is nice, but that's also if i spawn in a mining room and don't have to fight my way to one

[spice pawn]

OG half-life 1/2 exploding barrels and environmental hazards

[deep jacinth]

I still don't think you'd get better loot even if you got more rolls in the bat room generally. Goblins are juiced

[twin delta]

goblins have the same experience gain as a skeleton archer, and tend to drop greens at the same rate as archers and mages. so yeah they're better than skeletons and zombies who give less than half xp and drop worse rates on average

[quick blade]

That is an issue with mining. It's not really worth doing on anything besides ranger and rogue. But the interaction speed is a big part of the balance.

[carmine current]

the bats had the same pool of loot. maybe its just your luck or something but they were about the same pool if you take into consideration many many runs (like 10-20). its just that pyramid room in normals has more bats, and leads to another area very close by that has 5 bats. along with that pyramid has a lion chest and a ton of normal chests

[deep jacinth]

Goblins are more difficult so it makes sense but at the same time gobo caves are less risky due to the pvp elements

[twin delta]

elite bats skew the bat pool ngl. like they'll drop good stuff while other bats drop grey treasures most of the time. the two elite bats in the pyramid room have almost a coinflip chance to drop lockpicks too. if neither of them drop a lockpick there's also the guaranteed one in the library

[deep jacinth]

There's no way the bats have the same pool of loot I'd bet a heap of money that they don't I'd put more in that than GameStop stock.

[quick blade]

Bats are just good loot no matter which map. Them being on the goblin map made it even better.

[deep jacinth]

The rate of throwing weapons they drop shows that they have a different loot drop table than other stuff due to how commonly it dropped compared to other mobs

[twin delta]

eh, i feel like you're mixing up bat drops with death beetles which actually have a good rate of dropping greens on average, with blues uncommon

[carmine current]

if you are soley talking about exp and can clear both normal maps and goblin caves fine. then goblin caves are easier to level. since you have guarenteed escapes and escaping is the majority of your exp. however, there is an exeption. i power leveled some friends characters by giving them my backup fighter gear and carrying them through hell in normals which gaves way more exp then goblin caves

[twin delta]

inferno carrying is also legit good training since you get the harder versions to face off against but the map is a bit more open and easier to visibly traverse compared to the winding elevations on the normal tombs. i've gotten accustomed to seeing a red hell portal as a slightly less convenient blue since nobody goes to hell and seems to hunt down other players

[deep jacinth]

Unless there's a bonus loot table that bats have on top of another standard drop table but I don't think so

Is there an official name for what the red zone is called by the devs. A lot of players just called it hell. I guess the game isn't even out yet so nothing is set in stone.

[twin delta]

infero is the name 'cause that's the red portal name of 'portal to inferno' compared to blue being 'escape portal'. it's just called hell 'cause they're synonymous

[carmine current]

https://darkanddarker.wiki.spellsandguns.com/Death_Skull

[deep jacinth]

It says the loot is different and the gear score is worse lol. The wiki isn't even a trustworthy source in the first place right now though. I wouldn't repeat something the wiki says with confidence.

[twin delta]

... those aren't the same loot pools when you expand them. bats have small items of throwing knives, bandages, anything that fits in a 1x2 on average. goblins have gear in the pool, weapons, and treasures

and yeah that's if the wiki is even accurate. the scrubbed numbers they have are from playtest pooling because if they datamined the game then you'd be posting something against this discord's rules

[deep jacinth]

Not like people want gear and weapons they just want throwables like us classy barbs

[carmine current]

are you comparing the normal to elite and nightmare. goblin cave only has normal and elite. that is the type of enemy its the same pool

[deep jacinth]

Nah common and the goblin warrior common are not the same the numbers aren't even the same how can they be the same. I'm not trying to be crass or anything. It's a gear score 2 to like 3 on the same variant

Someone just said the loot tables are the same for the enemies and now they're different ok problem solved because that's what I was saying in the first place.

[twin delta]

yeah this comparison is hella skewed and i don't see the reason for the lean

yo i like this suggestion a lot #d-and-d-suggestions message

[carmine current]

ur not understanding how it works you need to click on teh type of mob then view the table of loot. so if you are comparing what ever you are talking about by just saying Common and the goblin warrior common, of course they are going to be different. since each enemy has its own loot pool.

[deep jacinth]

I understand someone just said the loot tables for the bats are the same as the goblins and now someone else is saying they're different just like I was saying.

[carmine current]

no one said the bats pool is the same as the golins. i said that the bats pool in normal is the same as teh goblin caves pool.

[deep jacinth]

Imo goblin caves were the most premium loot in the game for just your standard pve experience. If you're mind maxing castle rooms can be better but it comes with team fights and the matches are generally longer. Goblin caves was kind of like the cheat code

I'm not understanding your English and English is my first language how can the goblin caves loot be the same if the loot tables clearly have differences between the creatures. Do you mean everything but the creatures that can be looted?

[real trellis]

All I know is those death beetles had juiced loot fr. Blue or purple treasures almost every time.

[carmine current]

for a solo player yes the caves were good. however if you play smart in the castle (what i call normals) you can easily make it out every time. most of the time you just have to play like a rat and run and hide if you arent wearing armor and dont have weapon equip no melee class will ever damage you without a throwing weapon. on top of that if you are smart and wear only light armor its harder to hear you, so generally you could tell when a team was coming. I also found that if you rush the most desierable rooms you could clear them and loot them before other players could get there.

As for your second comment. what I'm saying is this. a death bat in the goblin caves (solos) is the exact same loot pool as the death bat in the castle (normals). sure the loot pool overall is going to be different since there are unique mobs in teh goblin caves. however the mobs that are shared between them are the same pool.

[deep jacinth]

Oh now that makes sense. The whole thing about the cave goblins loot compared to death bats loot made zero sense. The majority of goblin caves is unique enemies the loot is going to be significantly different. I'd try gobos over skeletons any day of the week that's for sure

[carmine current]

well i was saying that by comparing the death bat room for both maps. the pyramid has like 12 bats, the one in the goblin cave has i think 6. so it just has more things to loot, which is why I say it has more quanity then the goblin caves.

[deep jacinth]

It does but the quality on average at least in my experience sucks. Unless you go to very specific rooms and loot everything.

[carmine current]

your not wrong, but as a fighter main, i could care less if i get throwing weapons, since i used both daggers and the axes. also if it gave me rings or amulets it was easy money. also i did specfically go to those rooms. especailly if there was a team with me. i would rush those rooms and kill everyone inside

[deep jacinth]

I don't want the quality to be even better than what it already is thats for sure though I'd rather all loot suck however that wouldn't stop op greens from existing.

The offense isn't like a curve it feels like a spike pole to put someone's head on

If it was on a graph 📈

[verbal marsh]

I just think player loot should be (tainted) and incur durability damage, while everything else has no repair costs and remains pristine.

[deep jacinth]

I don't really see the point
Except to be annoying and to make a gold sink.

[rancid pebble]

Durability sucks and is not fun

[verbal marsh]

if you die with tainted gear, it breaks but can be repaired for a price. Would balance out loot worth.

[deep jacinth]

I doubt durability would be a good fit for this game at all.

[carmine current]

idk i like gear being a huge factor in the game. it gives it more rpg elements. however, i think the threshold to one shot you with good gear should be for near perfect or literally perfect gear. like i mentioned earlier with like +30 additional magic damage a wizard can oneshot any class in the game with zap even if they are in full mr gear. also getting +30 can easily be a character in all greens, not even needing a single blue or purple.

[bleak monolith]

What are some cool ideas for solo Q y’all have heard lately

[rancid pebble]

Im already scared about what the weight limit or item identification, utility effectiveness* stats could look like :/

[twin delta]

weight limit is hopefully never added in. item identification would be for mid-dungeon rummaging and scrolls.

[cobalt obsidian]

anything that sounds like inertia gets added to this game... will be a sad day.

[deep jacinth]

Doesn't feel like gear strategizing is a factor that much outside of niche cases because you stat all stats and damage and that's it there isnt nuance typically.

[rancid pebble]

done right it could be real cool, but if you cant use any items you find unless your skill is high enough or you have to pay a vendor it would be a little cumbersome

[deep jacinth]

Weight would 100% ruin the game and I doubt there's any way they could make it work.

[verbal marsh]

I think they should allow you to take backpacks, but the extra backpacks themselves incur speed loss.

[cobalt obsidian]

or classes that rely on move speed cant play the game properly because they decided to loot shit...

[twin delta]

agreed. i figure it'd be a means to skew loot from better chests to not be instantly a grab or pass deal. you'd need to pull the item out then identify it instead of knowing it's trash or not on opening it up.

[carmine current]

that isnt true. in this test people actually started to catch on to flat damage being the near BIS stat. the general rule of thumb was for all stats is if your base damage wasnt over 100 then its less damage then +1 flat damage. also for things that apply burning flat magic damage would give over 2x the benefit.

[deep jacinth]

But you get agi and str which are good. And they still increase your dps.

[verbal marsh]

There were items with +5 phy, +5 weapon power, and +3 str...

[carmine current]

for instance +5 additional physical damage on a rogue was worth way more then any amount of all stats. becuase its damage base is so low that it gets about 3-4 points of a single stat per flat point of damage. other examples were as i mentioned wizard, or even fighter with one handers

[verbal marsh]

The early drops during playtest were kinda broken idk about you but I had easily farmed sets with all damage boost.

[carmine current]

strength is 1% damage and 2 hp per point agility is move speed and interaction speed. agility is nice but if you are going for damage you should just be comparing strength addition for physical or will for magic. 1% damage only matches up to 1 flat damage once you are at or past 100 base damage.

[deep jacinth]

That's because rogue is just so much more different than the other clases same with mage

[verbal marsh]

cleric was strongest cause even if they stacked armor boost half your damage was magic off smite.

[carmine current]

i mean the same was ture for clerics, mages, fighters, and rogues. rangers could go either way but they genreally went a mixed because they dont normally hit for over 100 by default without a headshot on a good longbow (without considering any other stat increases).

[verbal marsh]

was tempted to just do a smite judgement cleric but never did lol

[deep jacinth]

Smite judgment cleric sounds viable tbh however it loses its strongest 1 tool

[carmine current]

the only class that really went all in on all stat or % increasses was barb, since he had the additional flat damage base from perks and used almost exclusively 2 handers which have more base damage then the one handers.

[deep jacinth]

I might play smite judgment next playtest it sounds good

[verbal marsh]

yeah healing too important to lose + the divine strike and protection

[carmine current]

it depends on what you are trying to do, if you are exclusivly doing pvp then its fine. just bring tons of pots potions and a surg kit or 2. for pve boss fights no you need healing.

[verbal marsh]

divine strike adds like 20 phy dmg

[carmine current]

smite is 10 and divine strike is 10. also divine strike is physical damage added so it doesnt get any increase to additional magic damage while smite does.

[verbal marsh]

like if you're str stacking you still want that ability for melee. Really comes down to whether you're keeping book open or not for judgement vs smite

[carmine current]

tbh saw full magic damage cleric builds using judgement hit super hard. and you can use smite and get that bonus on your melee. so you could go for that route and take 80% of someones hp from a judgment then swing with smite on for the kill.

[verbal marsh]

that will is also effecting your protection strength, so you still want spell casting.

[carmine current]

well protection can be replaced by just taking protection pots, healing can be replaced with the pots and bandages, techinaclly you can replace the strength increase i guess with alchol

[verbal marsh]

nah cause they made potions no longer stack, I was stacking 3-4 protections early playtest lol, you can stack cleric with 1 potion however

[carmine current]

ah didnt know that

[verbal marsh]

if their protection took more then one hit that is why.

[molten copper]

@stray blade I just wanna say your ragdoll suggestion is the best suggestion I've seen all week

[stray blade]

many thanks comrade! I hope one day you get a legendary weapon and ragdoll me to the moon with it!

[molten copper]

o7

[stray blade]

on a more serious note, I think that games (and media generally) would do well to understand how to balance silly and serious. I think the Hitman games do that perfectly at their best, for example (you assassinate the prime minister with a fish, for example)

[molten copper]

It's a really good point, and I didn't consider it until your suggestion, but as soon as I saw it I was like "yeah I -do- like silly ragdolls"

Gotta balance the dark and darker with the fun and funnier

[stray blade]

@modest condor I like your suggestion, comrade. I want an option to make barb say "I AM VENGEANCE" as Kevin Conroy (RIP)

@molten copper ok even tho i just talked about balance, i have like 800million silly suggestions but I can only post every 6hrs so I'm gonna have to get real selective (honestly probably for the best)

[modest condor]

👍

[dense sand]

Idk who was saying Goblin caves was the same loot table as Normal Dungeon, because it definitely wasn't operating that way, I would farm Goblin Caves while waiting for my team to get online and would consistently get blues and purples off of GOBLINS that's never happened to me off of a regular skeleton in this game in any playtest.

[cedar hearth]

A trashcan would nice to get for dumping stuff you don't want.

[molten copper]

I got 1 purple off a skeleton archer I remember because our ranger was SO excited cuz it was one of my earlier games. Never again though

[dense sand]

was it red?

[molten copper]

Ah, Sadly I do not remember if it was an elite archer or not no. It was too early in the game so I wasn't aware there were distinctions yet so I wasn't watching for that at that point.

[dense sand]

i'd bet it was a red skele archer, as it stands the current goblin caves was a gold mine, you could get more coin per hour solo in there than with a group in Normal

[rancid pebble]

.shortinfo 1620080

[eager sable]

Please provide a valid suggestion ID.

[rancid pebble]

.shortinfo 1620080

[eager sable]

Suggestion from Malo#5548

Pickpocketing Perk:

faster interaction time (from 1.5 to .7 seconds )

It now prioritizes small loot like jewelry, gold, and gems.

New interaction animation to look like pickpocketing rather than a normal interaction animation. (maybe with a gold bag in the rogue's hand and a more suspicious-looking stance.)

makes the perk more fun and realistic because you can't simply pickpocket someone in front of them. if you get caught even new players will be suspicious, making stealing from teammates more fun and nerve-racking. This will also help the thief steal a little more loot for their effort while focusing on loot that someone would realistically pickpocket, making the perk more usefull to sneaky non friendly pickpockets.

if this is too strong they can reduce the interaction range a little bit, making it a little riskier to steal.

FYI: while pickpocketing you can't move, so pickpocketing during a fight is not viable even with the relatively quick interaction time. especially considering how little defense rogues have.

Opinion:

+5

Suggestions Feed Post

[Suggestions Feed Post](#d-and-d-suggestions message)

Suggestion ID: 1620080 | Submitted at · Feb 22, 2023, 5:24 AM

[rancid pebble]

Im really puzzled why someone is first of all is trying to nerf rogue, and why they also chose PICKPOCKETING out of everything to nerf?

[wooden vigil]

suggestion, make the playtest start tomorrow, thanks

[dense sand]

its a buff to pickpocketing

[pallid lichen]

not sure why anyone would do that either.

[wanton lintel]

Pickpocketing needs to be buffed. It doesn't need to be "viable" but a rat rogue in the area should be a threat by the nature of them staying alive

[stray blade]

so true

@trim maple very very very good idea, comrade. (unrelated, I want a solaire shield if possible)

[pallid lichen]

honestly, any change to pickpocket that increases the amount/value of loot you can get, while avoiding making it OP when being a "friendly" rogue is good.

[wanton lintel]

As long as it remains (I have never tried, unsure if even possible) impossible to steal from allied party members. But everyone should know better about befriending a lonesome rogue in a dungeon anyways lol

[smoky yoke]

@pallid lichen i think it is a nice suggestion
maybe the animation should be even instant
like you do an animation of stealing something from people and it is pretty quick (without the interaction speed)
and because without interaction speed then the perk will have some x cooldown 🤔

[pallid lichen]

party members are impossible to steal from. Just FYI if you haven't played pickpocketing. i ran pickpocketing for like 3 days straight for a ton of hours and tried to make it work as mush as i can. and spoiler alerts it's absolutely horrible. you risk everything for absolutely nothing (one completely random unequipped item). looks like they designed it conservatively knowing people would use it on befriended players. which i think is smart, but i think it should still be somewhat useful for a rat as well. i want a dedicated pickpocketing build to actually be rewarding. hard to even get more then 2 successful pickpockets in a run. even with my changes it wouldn't be enough to make it viable, but its a good start.

[wanton lintel]

I used pickpocket a couple times and my best steal was 10 pieces of candy from a hyper-geared enemy team while I was a naked rat

[pallid lichen]

wow lucky grab. if it prioritzed small items it would up your chances of getting candy, gold,gems and stuff. which i think is a good change.

[pallid lichen]

i honestly disagree. I see what you are going for, making it less risky. but in my opinion, depending on how long the cooldown is, it kills the possibility for high-risk high reward plays that people want from this perk. if you're able to somehow not be caught, you should be able to steal as much loot as you have the balls to go for.

would be more thrilling and fun. with the downside being the potential of being caught redhanded

[wanton lintel]

I don't think pickpocket should remain in the default animation. It can be buffed but look more conspicuous but for a shorter amount of time. It's currently unfair to new players who don't know what the rogue's pickpocket animation looks like.

[smoky yoke]

oh i don't think it would be less risky because approaching people, possibly a trio as solo rogue (because i think this perk may work better when solo due to stealth)
it is still a big risk
and when you steal an item then you can run away and people have to follow you to get those items back or decide to leave you alone cause maybe a trap ahah

[smoky yoke]

i was thinking of the same animation like when you pick up the necklace, gold ect

but used for pickpocketing

so far this perk works only if you are friendly with someone

[pallid lichen]

yeah but fundamentally your idea would mean you can only pickpocket a team once. thats one item, to pay for all the time you spent planning and executing (hopefully without getting killed). not very worth it. after all that effort you want the opportunity to go big or go home.

[smoky yoke]

multiple times as long the cooldown permits it
usually stealing an item, and disappearing in the shadows and doing it again and repeating
some real build as thief

[pallid lichen]

i honestly want the animation to look even more like pickpocketing then that. if you get a good look at the rogue even as a new player, you should be at the very least extremly suspicious. like did that guy just pickpocket me?

[smoky yoke]

pickpocketing could be really a nice perk imo

[pallid lichen]

i swear im not being condescending, or trying to discredit you. but have you tried to do a pickpocketing strategy? because in my personal experience opportunities to pickpocket are very hard to replicate. i think a rogue rather have to do a .7 second interaction and be able to do it 2 or 3 times rather than have to reset and risk everything again 30 seconds later. you know what i mean.

[smoky yoke]

yes also in that way could work

[pallid lichen]

even if the cooldown is 10 seconds, i rather take a riskier play and grab 2 or 3 items then have to stalk the team for 30 seconds to get 3 items. iwant to get in steal, and get out.

.shortinfo 1619953

[eager sable]

Suggestion from StetsonForTheStern#9487

[find a way to prevent people just maxing their brightness. It makes the entire dungeon plainly visible, even dark corners, traps and hole are easily visible with no lighting ]

Opinion:

+38

Suggestions Feed Post

[Suggestions Feed Post](#d-and-d-suggestions message)

Suggestion ID: 1619953 | Submitted at · Feb 22, 2023, 2:54 AM

[pallid lichen]

is this a real thing? i tried max brightness to see if corners were visible and things look just as dark as they should. just kinda greys things out.

[wanton lintel]

It changes the blackpoint but not for absolute pitch black. It does make small imperfections with lightning allow you to sometimes see into pitch black.

[buoyant glacier]

Go take a look at some of the clips on reddit. https://www.reddit.com/r/DarkAndDarker/comments/117dqyi/posting_a_ranger_clip_everyday_until_early_access/ Is that what the gap room looks like to you guys?

[turbid ermine]

[buoyant glacier]

🩼

[cobalt obsidian]

holy shit that looks so much better.

[turbid ermine]

They need to fix that

[buoyant glacier]

Like seriously. It shits on the spirit of the game and anyone who does it is cringe. It needs to be addressed somehow and other means of mitigating darkness to that extent need to be against the ToS. Otherwise you should change the name of the game to "Bright & Brighter" cause everyone, especially the sweats are going to start doing it.

[cobalt obsidian]

yeah they need to fix the game so it always looks like that. My shits broken,

[buoyant glacier]

Using darkness to your advantage is a core tenant of the game and it should remain as much and be enforced in every way possible.

[stray saffron]

there should be a limit on it yeah, but some people just have a brighter setup than other, like how my screens both have a different brightness due to being other models

[cobalt obsidian]

If they released an outside map that didnt rely on darkness as a core mechanic.. that would be ok with me.

[pallid lichen]

well i rather have a clip of him seeing someone in an unlit room. it does look pretty bright, but maybe his black point isnt brighter.

i just wish i can see a clip of someone hiding in the darkness being visable, so i could know its a real issue.

[buoyant glacier]

https://imgur.com/a/4DXc9DV Heres what that room look like on typical settings and here is one from that clip looking across the bridge in the same room: https://imgur.com/a/v4bx9Cc . Compare the two and tell me it's not a problem. Its not just a crutch, its a damn motorized wheelchair

[lime sonnet]

yep thats a problem

[pallid lichen]

that guy must have his brightness at 0. that room looks totally different room. didn't know the setting made that much impact. i guess my brightness is pretty high too. you sure thats not a different varient of the map with different light levels or are all the instances of that room the same brightness?

[cobalt obsidian]

The second image looks way better.

[pallid lichen]

Yeah they defiantly need to resolve this. I almost feel like im missing something with how crazy the difference is.

[cobalt obsidian]

I will be upping the brightness from now on. I feel foolish for not playing that way this entire time. Not just because it may provide an advantage.. but because the game is just going to be so much more enjoyable to look at with those settings being adjusted.

[buoyant glacier]

Looking better isn't the issue here. The issue is that it provides a comically large advantage that is in direct opposition to the spirit, intended gameplay and NAME of the game.

[pallid lichen]

i think was at near max brightness, my game doesn't look like that picture.

[cobalt obsidian]

To be fair.... you would always be able to see targets across the bridge in that section of the map... They are never totally obscured unless they hit the torches. The area under the bridge where there is no torches you can see are still totally occluded.

[buoyant glacier]

Compare the visibility on the edges of the room. And especially below the bridge. Honestly, compare the visibility EVERYWHERE

[cobalt obsidian]

And a part of the concern for me and im sure for other people... is how the game looks. Playing in total darkness all of the time kind of sucks. Its just something i've dealt with because the gameplay is good enough.

[pallid lichen]

that being said there are spots that are pitch black regardless of brightness. i know that because i was never spotted as a sneaky rogue when i hid in the right dark spots. still should fix this though no question.

[cobalt obsidian]

Its like making a game with built in mechanics around a color filter... The game play may be ok.... but at the same time I dont want to be stuck on some weird blue / red filter all the time.

[cobalt obsidian]

Its definitely an advantage. Im just saying while yes it is easier to see those people across the bridge.... Those areas weren't intended to be in total darkness anyways and the torches weren't turned off.

I've never had a problem with target identification across that bridge on default settings.

[buoyant glacier]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ihF6fxBtZdc compare this video starting at 20 seconds to this one starting at 5:45 https://www.reddit.com/r/DarkAndDarker/comments/114337h/11_kill_solo_squad_ranger_gameplay/

[cobalt obsidian]

https://imgur.com/a/T8OEkc6 heres what I see looking across the bridge

[wanton lintel]

That's such a massive difference. I know there's a way to fix blackpoint settings for the devs, but they risk making players angry because everything might be too dark if they force blackpoint. Also, players that have naturally darker screens will be at an unfair advantage because they can't get the full information value out of the game through its settings. It's a tough issue to fix fiarly.

[cobalt obsidian]

unless they hit the torches they will always be seen by me granted in the darkest portions of the opposite side of the bridge... it will be difficult and just a silhouette.

[stray saffron]

true and if they remove the brightness settings in total you know people are going to use outside sources anyway, like how crosshairs are with some screens

[pallid lichen]

i feel like lowering the max brightness in-game is the best they can do. and pro players just assume that everyone can see any non pitch black spots

[turbid ermine]

People can just cope about it, better to make settings be fair for everyone

It's better if no one can see in the dark and some people can see less than having some people see you in the dark

[wanton lintel]

Also news dropped from a korean source directly from the mods @3 hours ago:

Translation: I obtained some news from the Warden. I can't reveal all the details, but I can share the information that can be made public for now. The response from the management team confirms that the pre-Early Access test has been confirmed. Also, the test date is expected to be at the end of March, but it could also be in April, so please keep this in mind. I hope this will be helpful for those who are waiting for Dark and Darker.
Just thought I'd share!

Also note: I would like an indicator of whether or not I'm in pitch black darkness. Just some kind of indication. I can't tell the difference between "barely above pitch-black" and "pitch-black"

[pallid lichen]

nice good to know

[stray saffron]

ah like a little eye icon maybe? that's open when you're in light but closed when in pitch black

[turbid ermine]

Could just use the more immersive old thief system where ur crouch siluette is black instead of white/grey

[pallid lichen]

for me its preety obvious but maybe thats becasue i play at high brightness. so if it looks dark for me its definitely dark.

[wanton lintel]

I turned my brightness up literally just so I could identify darkness better and hide better as a thief. I didn't mean to do it to over-optimize, but it makes so much of a difference I feel like I have to

[pallid lichen]

thats kind of why i did it too. i play rogue so its necessary.

[wanton lintel]

Or a third-person mode, but that would definitely break immersion and allow corner-peeking and is probably not a good solution.

[pallid lichen]

my hottest take about rogue is that hide, weak point, and rupture could use a slight rework.

@wanton lintel in my experince fully black hands mean youre in total darkness.

[wanton lintel]

How do you think the active abilities should be reworked?

[sick storm]

they should lower hide cooldown and make it last like 10-20 secs

[stray saffron]

but that's why you can use a potion of invisibility already while hide is on cooldown tho, all 3 skills are good the way they are

[pallid lichen]

but idk how much that rule carries over to low brightness.

@wanton lintel make rupture and weak point go away after like 5 seconds of not landing a hit. that way you cant just store them on your weapon until you need it. (not engaging or interesting gameplay) that way you can actually waste those perks if used incorrectly. also rupture and weakpoint are basically similar perks in practice in that one is better for geared rogues while the other is better for ungeared rogues, i think they need a little more to differentiate themselves situationally.

[stray saffron]

the thing is with rupture and weakpoint to stay on your dagger is so that you can have them, use hide and then have them on the ready, seeing using them would break your stealth.

not sure how an AP debuff and bleed dot can be classified as the same tho as one is for committing to the kill while the other is more a hit and run

[pallid lichen]

i was going to say something similar. hide last way too long. i think the cooldown can go down to 30 seconds from 45 and make hide last a shorter amount of time like 25 seconds. i think its just too good, and sometimes feel no skill. and i say that as a rogue. it should be usefull if you time it right, but having 40 seconds of invis gives very little counterplay to anyone who is suspicious of a rogue. they literally have to sit there for 40 seconds.

[turbid ermine]

Or use judgement, the only anti invis ability in store

Outside of chain lighting your allies*

[wanton lintel]

Wizard has light of revealing (I think?), ranger has tracker, and I don't know if judgement was intended to be used on invisible enemies

@pallid lichen as a rogue main, I also hate to admit it, but hide seems to be a little too long. One 30-second invisibility potion allows you to chain it into 1.5 minutes of hiding, too.

[stray saffron]

the problem there tho is that rogues need that time given them by stealth as players don't always go in a straight line to where you're waiting for your ambush, which already causes some hides to not be long enough

[pallid lichen]

they do have differences, but i think youre almost always better off going for rupture with a bad dagger, and weakpoint just totally outclasses rupture with a higher tier dagger. at the highlevel of play it forces your hand in a way.

[wanton lintel]

Rupture only good on throwing knife playstyle with hit-and-run poking tactics. For most cases weakpoint generally wins.

[stray saffron]

honestly, i always run both at the same time as you can have plenty of stealth just by using potions. but yeah it's just a case of how you want to play as byte says rupture isn't just on your daggers but can be done with throwing knifes

[turbid ermine]

caltrops may need a buff or to be an item, currently...why

[wanton lintel]

Caltrops are good for anti-pursuit. They are better than most people give them credit for.

If you can chain caltrops into three throwing knives, then it will outperform the other abilities. This is possible with the slowing effects. This also allows for counter-ambush.

[stray saffron]

i can't say i've actually seen much use with them same with smokebombs actually. like i've encountered plenty of rogues but only once got smokebombed

[turbid ermine]

Smoke bomb and hide are both better anti pursuit, a caltrop is an inconvenience, hide has more utility and smokebomb is an aoe and vision obscure versus range

[pallid lichen]

yeah i think that feels uninteresting. the "correct play" is always using weak point/ rupture and then hide. i think if there was a timer on them, it makes you consider whether you want to do that, or if you rather just pop them right after coming out of invis and then attack. more interesting high-skill cap questions.

[wanton lintel]

Smoke bomb does not slow enemies as much. And you shouldn't say "hide has more utility than..." because hide is practically mandatory anyways. Your option is either a damaging ability or an escape ability. Caltrops are good because they're hidden and have a MUCH stronger slow that actually lasts a set period of time that can chain into attacks, especially throwing knives.

Also, try putting caltrops on the bridge. it's funny as hell

[pallid lichen]

just fYI caltrops ARE visable. a lot of misinfo going on about that.

but its true most people dont notice them.

[wanton lintel]

They're visible but essentially hidden. Nobody has spotted them in my experience.

[stray saffron]

i mean it makes sense, it's you preparing for the ambush and not pulling it out as you see your opportunity as applying a skill also comes with an action, like trying to apply it mid combat halts your attacks for a bit

[wanton lintel]

Then make the perk insta-apply without interrupting attacks, but punish players for not using it immediately or missing with it.

[stray saffron]

that i do think should be a thing, losing it if you miss your first stab and not lose it on first contact. but i do think no skills should instant apply, it's like how barbarians can't yell as they're swinging their axes

[pallid lichen]

@wanton lintel what if to differentiate rupture to weakpoint and buff rupture in comparison later on in the game? weak point has a timer, but rupture doesn't. so you can store rupture but not weakpoint. making it so that rupture is more user-friendly. better with knives, easier to use and incentivized for a new players. while weakpoint is a little riskier to use and has to be used at the moment of attack, but has higher damage output when followed up with consecutive attacks while helping out teammates' dps as well. So they feel more different in application then they currently do.

[pallid lichen]

it does halt you but if you're attacking from an angle you're ok with that. rewards positioning. i think nerfs that incentive skillful play are good.

[pallid lichen]

interrupting attacks? you mean no animation when you cast it? honestly think the animation could stay it looks cool. and makes the player think a little bit about when they want to cast it.

[stray saffron]

you also got to take in mind that not everyone is as skillfull as someone else is. but applying a skill does halt you, just try it out with anything that isn't a rogue and you'll notice it alot more where you can't swing untill animation cooldown, which is pretty quick on rogue. if you had to apply it as you come out of stealth that's atleast one less stab for the rogue

[wanton lintel]

Maybe. Difficulty needs to be balanced. Shouldn't be a one-cast that lasts for minutes, but it shouldn't be an animated 3-second attack necessarily either.

[pallid lichen]

imnot sure what youre talking about. what perk?

[wanton lintel]

You can cast rupture or weakpoint once and it lasts indefinitely until your next attack.

[pallid lichen]

not really, people only notice you when they get hit. doing a quick animation and then stabbing usually doesn't effect how many stabs you get in as long as you dont get caught while getting out of hide.

[stray saffron]

nono i mean it physically renders you unable to stab untill you finish the animation of applying the skill, hence why it needs to be activated before you're into stealth

[pallid lichen]

im aware thats how the game currently works. my suggestion is to make it so that rupture is indefinite but not weakpoint.

@stray saffron yeah i know thats what you're talking about. i understand that making it that weakpoint or rupture has a limited amount of time would make that less viable. but i think thats a good thing. the idea of having to use your perk to break your invis so, therefore, having to time when you will do it perfectly is actually fun. and it makes people consider how important that damage buff is to them in that situation.

[wanton lintel]

That is fair

[golden spade]

Do you guys think that the game wont be the same if a class had a "dash" ability? kinda like league flash

[stray saffron]

but if weakpoint shouldn't be indefinite then neither should rupture then.

i think the best way is instead of making it so it's time limited that it clears on a wiff instead to raise the skill bar on it

i really honestly think the rogue is good as is. it was fun to play, good where it's good at and doesn't need much of a change

[pallid lichen]

well the idea is to make rupt an actual alternative to WP at highlevel high loot play, because right now there arent enough good reason to use rupture over weakpoint, when you have a good dagger.

[stray saffron]

rupture is, that bleed is 10x better than the damage done with weakpoint, if any of the two it's rupture that would need a timer if one got it. especially as it's something that can be applied from long range, for a class that's all about upclose ambush play, that's a league of it's own

[pallid lichen]

i totally disagree. its a popular opinion amongst rogues that weakpoint is generally better especially once you don't have a starting dagger. 20 damage is irrelevant when you see how much bonus damage you get over the course of 5 seconds with weakpoint.

[stray saffron]

yes...but you're forgetting that's just with a dagger, add in the damage modifiers and rupture becomes way more powerfull, i killed way more people through rupture than with my daggers. you can't compare a starter rupture to good dagger with weakpoint

[pallid lichen]

i think another idea could be that the hit that gives the enemy weak point doesn't actaully benefit from the buff, only consecutive attacks do. therefor making weakpoint for all-out combo attacks, and rupture is DEFINITELY better for poke and run.

[hazy ravine]

why cant i make a suggestion?

[stray saffron]

that...well wouldn't be that far fetched but then people are going to complain with their stealth play that they only get one real backstab in before people twirl around so then lose that initial damage with weakpoint. tho...isn't that already the point of weakpoint where you commit to the kill and rupture/poison for hit and run beestings?

[graceful cairn]

how to create a sugestion

[pallid lichen]

even if you get rupters 20 damage up to 30 damage with magic bonuses, if you can land three hits with weakpoint you can often do an extra 100 damage total. and not to mention the physical damge that weakpoint enhances, scales beter with perks like backstab and ambush.

apperently suggestions bot was buggin so they closed it.

[stray saffron]

wait..they closed suggestions? i don't see that channel anymore

[graceful cairn]

https://discord.com/channels/988365908009447485/1048759403819577486

[stray saffron]

well yes rupture is far more gear dependant while weakpoint is as i mentioned where you go for the kill, that's why it only lasts a few second too unlike the barbarian's 75% for a hit.

[pallid lichen]

the people who complain about that can use rupture.

[turbid ermine]

Why not use both rupture and weak spot? Just use the million invis pots for stealth

[stray saffron]

that's not how you make a good balance tho...

it's not about using both perks, it's a discussion if either, both or none should be applied to a rogue indefinitely or not

[quasi star]

I suggest adding a player merchant class. You can bring whatever items you want into the match and trade with other players to make profit$$$. You will be short and wearing bright silly patterned clothing so everyone can see you, with a funny little mask which makes players giggle and you'll be hunched over from your huge bulbous rucksack full of trinkets. You'll waddle around slowly as not to appear threatening, looking for buyers. Your Q ability will make you say "What'r ye buyin???" and E will make you throw back your head and laugh heartily at your buyers meager offer.

[wanton lintel]

as funny as this sounds, they will become the resident loot goblin

[stray saffron]

pretty much just a free loot goblin yeah

[quasi star]

I suggest a giant fish level where you are walking around inside it. And you can stab the fishys belly and he will scream and flop and make all the players bounce around inside and drop their items. You know like king jabu jabu.

[pallid lichen]

to fill you in on the convo. I was exploring ways in which rupture and weak point could be further differentiated in the game so they feel different. i offered the idea that weakpoint goes away after say 5 seconds. i agrue that it allows for rupture to be more userfriendly version of weakpoint that last indefinitely and could be stored on your weapon, like it currently can. this makes up for the fact that i think weakpoint is generally a better option especially when rogues have good daggers with high physical damage.

@stray saffron its balanced because i think it makes the stronger damage perk more skill-based, and harder to use. while keeping the weaker damage perk easier to use. which is good for new player, who are incentivised to use it anyways.

[turbid ermine]

I mean yeah I do see the issue that rupture is the "early game" ability and the moment u get a decent dagger you forget that it exists and go weak spot. But isn't it already different enough when we consider will stacking for the magic damage? Versus strenght for raw damage?

[pallid lichen]

it is different but in utility and practice it basically plays the same. (use this whenever you want, it lasts forever and makes your next hit stronger) , with my idea they feel like even more distinct perks, that even a high-tier rogue might want to use rupture.

[turbid ermine]

Yeah it does feel exactly the same niche/utility, the idea fixes it quite well and now rogue actually thinks about the choice

[stray saffron]

no i think it takes away some balance to the game. if weakpoint was specific to a rogue and instead of a skill changed into a buff then i'd agree with it lasting 5 seconds just like it does when you hit a player with it. a bit like how ignite works on other people's weapons

adding that time frame for weakpoint mid combat really hinders the rogue far more than it should and will make it be used less.

[wanton lintel]

5 seconds is a long time in rogue combat tbh

[smoky yoke]

and also if you miss the hit, it still there iirc

same for rupture

very unpopular opinion but if you miss the hit, or if you missclick M1, rupture and weakpoint they should go away
even if you hit the air

[stray saffron]

yeah that's why instead of adding timers, make it go away on a miss instead of a collision with something would make more sense

[pallid lichen]

i totaally disagree weakpoint can VERY viably be used mid-combat, ive done it myself. i even often forgot to use weak point before hide, and very easily used weakpoint breaking my invis and then attacked. its literlly.5 seconds that you're going to be using walking up to the player anyways. its not a big hindrance at all.

[smoky yoke]

yes using before or after works as well

[quasi star]

I suggest the elves are purple.

[turbid ermine]

Isn't the "ability cast time" on Rogue like 0.4ms for rupture and weak spot*

[atomic mountain]

Balancing classes and abilities, for being one of the most difficult things to get right, and for not really being a priority for the devs, was done very well so far. Why are people so fixated on discussing balance?

[turbid ermine]

Not much to do currently, discussing balance is pointless till all the game systems and gear is fixed

[pallid lichen]

i thought about this, to differentiate the perks maybe make rupture go away if you miss but last forever, but make weak point go away 5 seconds after cast. could make the perks more interesting and feel different. offering a real choice between them.

[stray saffron]

it's something i don't understand that well either as the classes, as stupidly damaging they are with the modifiers they're actually decently well balanced the way they are and are working. i'm not saying slight improvements wouldn't be better, but they done a good job compared to other games

[smoky yoke]

not a priority but they actually are constantly buffing and nerfing stuff every time

plus even if it is not their priority, it is fair
it is better to work in other things
but eventually they will have to do something about balance
so either before or after, won't change much 🤔

[pallid lichen]

its just fun for me personally. realistically they arent going to add 99% of the suggestions, but we talk about the game so we discuss things.

[smoky yoke]

ranger it is still not 100% how it should be meant to be

[atomic mountain]

They do what they do to experiment and gather data. But like 9/10 suggestions are about buffs and nerfs.

[smoky yoke]

it is not yet 100% finished due to missing mechanics

[stray saffron]

missing mechanic of a ranger? what are they missing?

[smoky yoke]

yes

Rangers aren't functioning how they're planned to yet

[placid elm]

they have 10 years plan, thereis plenty not buff and nerf content

[stray saffron]

god now i'm really curious what mechanic of a ranger is going to be added

don't tell me it's a pet mechanic

[smoky yoke]

it is more like balance in general
some classes may not be full filled by their vision and it may be normal during development

in playtest #3 rangers were very strong because if i remind correctly the arrows had no physics drop

[atomic mountain]

They have more classes to add, 13 I last heard. So balance won’t be achievable in the short term but I think they’ve done very well so far and I really don’t have any concerns about them missing out on ideas from the community about what would be better here or there. I’m more concerned about the things they seem fixated on keeping that are arguably just worse than better options

[smoky yoke]

and in playtest #4 eventually they tweaked this
If I'm not wrong

[stray saffron]

yeah the arrow drop definitely was a nice touch, really made you practise shots more than just laser focus a head

[smoky yoke]

to be fair we were just discussing about personal visions about nerfs and buffs
developers will finish the classes how they thought at first and for sure check also data

[atomic mountain]

Yeah I feel that

[smoky yoke]

but if you want to speculate, there was an official concept art of the game showing a ranger fighting a dragon with something in the arrows

but who knows

[stray saffron]

tipped arrows? that would be pretty interesting

but i do wonder if that should be a skill or more equipment like a quiver, like hold R and change your arrows type, like less damage but more arrows, higher velocity but losing a few, fire arrows but instant reload that kind of thing

[smoky yoke]

plus sdf said that rangers can have spells

[atomic mountain]

Id like to share some things that I found concerning, but first, I want to know if any of you found any aspect of the game to be just bad or made you not want to play? Starting gear choice? NPCs? Consumables? Hell? Etc. Anything you really don’t like about the core of the game so far?

[smoky yoke]

A: Rangers can have spells. I’m thinking of implementing it through artifacts rather than each class having spell casting. For now expect wands and scrolls. Development will take some time.

[stray saffron]

ah, spell memory for rangers to do like ignite on their arrow. it would make sense they start with a campfire that way

[smoky yoke]

literally ranger may not be finished
what it seems incoming nerfs/buffs
in reality it is not

[stray saffron]

scrolls i've already been a big fan off, like a lucky find in a dungeon leading to you having a pocket fireball

[smoky yoke]

in the high roller art there was also the ranger with the arrow imbued of poison
but who knows 🤔

the goblin are actually using arrows imbued of poison

[stray saffron]

oh ik that one for sure...still picking those out of my back from the first times i went in the goblin cave

[turbid ermine]

Doesn't pestilence (the bow) deal DoT magic damage?

[smoky yoke]

yes, if i remember correctly
some dmg more

[stray saffron]

the only thing i worry about with tipped arrows would be the even bigger cheese strats a ranger could pull off. not sure how they'll handle that

[smoky yoke]

then we may see a dragon, this is what sdf, the developer said

the lich and ghost king are not B3 bosses

so in B3 there may see new bosses that we did not see yet

[stray saffron]

instead of dragons i feel like it will be demon themed, like a greater demon. a dragon would need a big floor like a forest

[smoky yoke]

yes could have sense

maybe a demonic dragon

[stray saffron]

or a dragon in the forest, a skeletal dragon in the crypt, and a zombified one for inferno. tho i do kinda feel like dragons should be an optional boss. like it only attacks when you get really close as it lays dormant and is way more powerfull than the b3 bosses

[smoky yoke]

yea maybe in a dark forest could make sense the dragon due to the map being potentially big
in the crypt, most likely there will be the lich and the ghost king because those bosses apparently they were the bosses of B2

[stray saffron]

it will be interesting to see how many will be killed when there's more players swarming them. or how many will go to b3 because there was a massacre for boss loot

[sharp crater]

how do I add suggestion? 🙂

[atomic mountain]

Anything y’all dislike about the game so far that you want to see major change with?

[smoky yoke]

yea b2 will be harder as b3 i think and then b3 will be way more harder

[smoky yoke]

in #1048762118255673428 you should be able to run a command which you can find at the begin of that channel but seems like the bot is not working, so please try another time

[stray saffron]

honestly? only had issues with mining and how disorganised the market was, in which case i ignored both, other than that it was fun to play the way it was

[sharp crater]

the channel you linked also says "No Access", I'll try later

[stray saffron]

it's basically the 1st channel in feedback, but that channel is gone for now untill the bot works

[smoky yoke]

oh okay, then it is under maintenance

it should be back maybe in a few hours

[stray saffron]

at first i kinda thought they just closed it as they gathered enough feedback and too many multiple suggestions for the same thing

[atomic mountain]

Yeah I feel the same. The current trade system, although it’s been improved, was the only aspect of the game I thoroughly disliked.

[smoky yoke]

they should add a filter such as Item Rarity

so you can filter only specific rarities

[granite plinth]

I mainly disliked gathering hall either not refreshing when people leave or continuing to scroll on it's own while you're clicking invite. Same with trade

[stray saffron]

it was just to...free? like there was too much bartering while the chat was going way faster than it should have

[twin delta]

you really needed to use the filter checklist to get your chat into a manageable state in the trade market, and even then if it was for the most commonly traded item type in the channel then you still had to deal with mile a minute chat lines

[smoky yoke]

luckily when playing, trade channel it is very optional in the end
no one is being forced to use it
but of course, to min maxing stuff, trade channel is needed and becomes a main thing

[atomic mountain]

What concerns me the most is that Graysun said in a recent video with Orlanthi that they like the trade chat because it gave them nostalgic feels of OS RuneScape. Which is fine, but the devs seem very against the idea of an auction house because they “want to encourage player interaction”

[stray saffron]

i do think an auction house do is in order to make it easier to overlook while keeping a trade channel open for people wanting to interact, barter or trade for things other than gold

[smoky yoke]

this was known also before that video, and it is true, they want to emulate older games with the trade channel

[white cliff]

I’d rather not sort through trash though, if someone is listing terrible roll greens for hundreds of gold there’s no way to inform them that it won’t sell.

[smoky yoke]

I honestly like the in real time trade channel

[atomic mountain]

Idk what they think happens in trading, but i don’t come away from it thinking wow that was such a cool player interaction. I’m there for the upgrade or the replacement and I want to go play with my friends who are waiting on me.

[smoky yoke]

yes that is min maxing, and optional but i understand what you mean

what if there was not the trade channel at all though 🤔

[atomic mountain]

I don’t want to replace the trade chat for the people who love spending a half hour to find boots, sure, keep it in. But an auction house should be an option for those who want it there.

[smoky yoke]

they will probably never add an auction house, this is their word

because they think the value of an item comes from the friction that comes by having to individually deal with another person

the 1:1 of old mmo's like EQ, UO, diablo 2 ect
is that what they want to emulate

design decision 😄

[atomic mountain]

If you have gold on hand, but just lost your current set. It might take 30 mins in trade chat to find one item. It’s so inefficient.

[smoky yoke]

no one forces you to go in the trade channel though

[twin delta]

something to note that live auction houses in games have also consistently lead to artificial economic control of the game by bots. looking at diablo 3 and crossout's auction house system as the worst examples of it

[smoky yoke]

you can find it maybe in the dungeons instantly some good gear already

[stray saffron]

i did used to love trade channels from WoW which was the alternative to their auction house. where i could barter with people or ask them for some things i needed in exchange for what i was selling. or to buy their services so i could do my professions

[atomic mountain]

And a lot of aspects from other games have made this game better. I would argue that trade chat does not make the game better compare to an auction house.

[smoky yoke]

plus in future there may be available the "craft" and "repair" tabs to use from merchants

the quests perhaps
giving armor or weapons

to give chance to have stuff instead to use trade channel maybe

just guessing here

[atomic mountain]

The only time I ever was on D&D, and decided to get off and NOT play, was when I had to sit in trade chat and replace a full gear set for over 6 hours

[stray saffron]

i do hope they won't be upgrading the merchants too much related to quests, like having the merchants deal in better gear

[smoky yoke]

why not going in the dungeons and farming the set maybe in less time 🤔

at least possible to play while finding the gear

[atomic mountain]

Sure it’s optional, but so is not playing. That’s not a way to form an argument lol

[smoky yoke]

the kinda does it already
sometimes i found a blue, purple, blue ect in a row 🤔

[stray saffron]

see this is something i didn't get either, don't need a full set to go into the dungeon

[smoky yoke]

can even find a legendary if im not wrong

[smoky yoke]

yea true

maybe min maxing in high roller dungeons ok

[white cliff]

I’d agree, sometimes it would take me a while to build a full set using the trade chat. But I foresee the same thing with an auction house, same garbage different bucket.

[smoky yoke]

but possible to kill a player already and steal their good set also

[atomic mountain]

Your friends have full blues n purples as spares. You don’t. You feel ok about going in naked knowing your team is risking 10k worth of gear? Nah

[stray saffron]

can't say i ever found a legendary with him but he's random and available to everyone so he's fine. it's a difference where it's constant pumping out blue/purple. like how the shops sometimes had a green in them was fine

[atomic mountain]

But you got gold you can’t spend because you request a trade and they’re busy. Inefficiency. I want to search for an item that’s listed for a certain price land buy it instantly and put it on and go play. I must be alone in this

[smoky yoke]

no you are not alone as in many people asked

in past

[white cliff]

I mean there’s no sense in arguing a point that the devs have made a clear stance on. Kind of redundant.

Yeah people argue it, and it gets downvoted every time.

[stray saffron]

i do get that, a little more like player owned shops like it used to be in UWO

[smoky yoke]

i have no problems with it to be honest

[atomic mountain]

Also, wouldn’t it be nice to find good gear that you don’t have space for and just list it up? Go play and come back to find someone bought it? Instead of having to take a 20min break after each game to sell stuff that’s good that won’t fit in stash?

[stray saffron]

that's what selling to the merchants is for right? you just don't get candy or massive amounts of gold

[smoky yoke]

would slightly change the mechanics of the game i guess

the balance around on it

[atomic mountain]

These are exactly the things players should make noise about. That’s how WoW classic and RS Classic were born

[smoky yoke]

the merchant trader from RE4 in dark and darker crossover

[atomic mountain]

Trade chat should stay, and just be free or a low cost fee. Auction house with a higher fee and a limit to # of items per 24hours, and an additional fee of your item doesn’t sell. Highest bidder or Buy Now prices could be set.

[smoky yoke]

i'm not sure
maybe both could work
but maybe they could alter the economy around it
highest bidder as long it does have a cap 🤔

[glass ibex]

the fee is okay bro

[smoky yoke]

i think even if the main reason is the one to emulate old vibes it is also the balance of the economy maybe

getting instantly high gear, the one you are searching, it would be kinda the antithesis of the game

[stray saffron]

yeah don't let it become the economy like WoW where there's too much RMT for gold

[smoky yoke]

approved

[smoky yoke]

will pass along this feedback ☝️
(joke)

[stray saffron]

i mean it is something to take note off how easy it apparently was to make money using just the trading system by flipping items

[atomic mountain]

Gathering data on how to help balance loot pools and economy would be made easier with an auction house also

[smoky yoke]

but really, trade channel is already ook
i hope trade channel regardless, should not be the main shop

[cold condor]

yeah, direct trading makes it super easy for gold sellers to do their thing

[smoky yoke]

make the normal shop the main resource of getting stuff instead
trade channel just optional just to min maxing

[atomic mountain]

I don’t hate it, but I do dislike it and I just see it could be better

[smoky yoke]

i honestly still go with no gear and farming
the less i use trade channel the better, at least for me

[stray saffron]

got to see the trade channel like ye old market place, just be ready to get hit by a random fish sometimes

[smoky yoke]

trade channel actually they use it like an auction house

but they should instead trade randomly people and ask what they have

this how it is meant actually

[stray saffron]

i do agree there, the less i used the trading channel the better it was for me. my stash wasn't overflowing, might not have min max gear but had fun going in the dungeon

[atomic mountain]

If merchants reliably had decent greens that’s be aight, but if I got money on hand I just want to replace starter gear and go in with that so I have a decent chance of outplaying ppl in really good gear

[smoky yoke]

like inviting random people to trade in the list at the right and check their stuff and then exchanging stuff 🤔

[fleet cosmos]

Just need button for take all invites and making AH lol

[atomic mountain]

Sometimes I was broke but sometimes I was over encumbered by gear and money

[stray saffron]

that might make some people to busy while others want to trade too. unless everyone can access the same trade window to just buy what's on offer and it vanishes when sold?

[smoky yoke]

i suggested something that could make you discard weapons and gear and give you materials depending the item rarity

where you could then craft, potentially other armors or weapons by these low quantities of materials obtained

[atomic mountain]

Yeah I’d be down with that as an option in the future sure

[smoky yoke]

in the merchants tabs was possible to see the "craft" window

so maybe there may be other ways

to get stuff

[stray saffron]

it would be interesting to have greens and white also craftable from recycled gear

[atomic mountain]

I think they mean to have that used in questing no?

[smoky yoke]

maybe also the quests could give rewards perhaps

the game it is an alpha after all
it must be finished first to see the totality of the game

[unborn tangle]

How does one submit a suggestion to the d-and-d-suggestions channel?

[smoky yoke]

soon #1048762118255673428 channel will be open again, and you will be able to make your suggestions
the bot it appears not working and the channel it is under maintenance for now

[unborn tangle]

Ah bummer

[stray saffron]

don't let it discourage you from discussing your suggestions here, could help you improve the concept of the suggestion you're making or see what people think before posting it

[unborn tangle]

I'd seen several mentions of "insurance" and thought perhaps a "bound bag" that could be purchased from a vendor (2x2 four slot bag) that if equipped before raid gives you the ability to get something small out of a mission (for a cost). The size restriction would prevent a lot of schenanigans but would allow for "mission" items to be implemented without being overly frustrating for players to acquire. Just make it so when you die anything that was in the bag goes to your stash, bag is destroyed.

[stray saffron]

yes lots of people been asking that, a bit like the tarkov system so they don't lose some things which goes against the hardcore aspect the game currently give. you're no longer risking your loot or gear when such a thing would get added

[unborn tangle]

I agree, but unlike tarkov in which there is no cost associated with the "case" you carry this would cost the player money. That could be a considerable amount.

[atomic mountain]

As long as it’s not a pay to win mechanic like in tarkov, why not

[granite plinth]

Rip #suggestion-discussion got ruined by slowmode

the bastions of no slowmode is slowly disappearing one by one

[stray saffron]

not sure if putting a pricetag on it would be a good idea, it's a benefit for well geared players for sure, but a downside to newer players who don't extract as much. and before anyone puts a "get good" on it losing your stuff should always be a risk be it new player or veteran

[unborn tangle]

To your point VoidyBlade about benefit for new players vs. geared, unless there is some kind of gear score or player level matching system (lvl 1s with no gear facing geared experienced players?) those noobs are already disadvantaged. This would at least give the ungeared players a chance of completing quests even if they're regularly being killed by other players at a small price.

[stray saffron]

well yeah but i mean it's more that the geared ones will be the one with more advantages as when killed by a ungeared player they could have some if not multiple items saved. and the ungreared player wouldn't be able to afford said small price.

that's why it's better to just not allow any items to be saved in general, quest item or not. it's part of the risk of going in the dungeon

there's already too much of an issue with people keeping items in their stashes because they fear losing it, which in turn makes them want bigger stashes

[atomic mountain]

I want a bigger stash to save more spare sets or good items for friends who aren’t online when I pick em up, or to move to other characters through friends

If replacing gear was easier, i wouldn’t have 3-4 spare sets taking up space though lol

[stray saffron]

that's what the stash is for tho, to have some replacement gear if you end up dieing. most i kept in there were weapons i could use to not have to start with starting weapons, the only reason why i'm for more stash space is because money bags took up more than half of it

[atomic mountain]

Yeah, once you get to about 5k or more of raw gold you can convert it into candy or whatever is the super currency at the time

[stray saffron]

seeing candy was used to buy from valentine i'd say nah, but yeah there just wasn't enough of a money sink at the time

[atomic mountain]

Maybe a candy bag would help with that too lol

I just used it as a more condensed version of gold, or to buy the most cracked item valentine had and sell for a profit

[stray saffron]

it definitely had alot more value than gold

[atomic mountain]

If I could post those items for highest bid and rake in the money in a less hands on way I’d prolly make more

Post it up for an hour at highest bid, come back and get twice what I would have expected with the spamming chat fishing approach? Yes plz

[fleet wing]

Sry if this was already asked, but why can't I see the make a suggestion chat? Didn't see an announcements about it

[stray saffron]

the bot is currently having issues, they're working on it

[atomic mountain]

I like the goblin cave solo dungeon they put in, but more ppl are wanting a solo option for the castle as well. What do y’all think?

[stray saffron]

the thing with the auction house i think it's to prevent people so they don't just post it without having to carry it around or have it in their stash, sure it makes it easier but at the same time exploits it for saving room

when it comes to solo castle...no a solo map is fun but they shouldn't adjust the map when it's made for groups. they can still solo it but with an increased risk

[cobalt obsidian]

I would love to see solo players get a HR lobby. More game play implementations for solo players to enjoy the game is a good thing.

[atomic mountain]

My suggestion would be a fee per re-listing that way you can’t sh*t post or demand obscene prices

[stray saffron]

auction house is just going to lead to more bot farming tho, for example how it ruined RS and WoW economy

[atomic mountain]

It’s in every game, isn’t a good reason to not give it a try

There were gold sellers and scammer in trade chat, and sure some will make bots and macros but by and large it won’t affect most players’ normal use of the auction house imo

[atomic mountain]

I would like to see that also. And maybe some separate solo leaderboards? I prefer team play, but when bad group after bad group leads you to a loss streak. Solo is my next option

[cobalt obsidian]

yes man. Solo leaderboards please! That would be awesome.. Team play in this game is awesome as well... 1v3's are not awesome at all.

[atomic mountain]

An arena where you could duel, inspect, and sort of interview potential high roller team mates might help find ppl of similar skill

[stray saffron]

why not add competitive to the game then with a rank system?

[atomic mountain]

Gear is one thing, but it’s hard to measure skill before you are checked in a team fight

[atomic mountain]

My gut reaction is “the best MMR/ranked is to have none at all”

[stray saffron]

i feel the same about a pve or pvp mode, but as separate mode excluded from the game i wouldn't be too bothered with it aslong it doesn't affect the core gameplay

[atomic mountain]

The only ranked system I thought was done right was maybe Rocket League. But there’s like 7 ranks and 3 grades with 4 divisions in each. So a lot lol. But they have the player count to warrant splitting the player base

The leaderboards are already kind of a ranking system, but in lieu of actual ranked, player stats + profile would be very nice to have

Others could see your KDA, survival rate, avg loot value per run, etc

[stray saffron]

idk that would probably make boosting more a thing, like people rigging lobbies or some other form to boost people's ranks

[smoky yoke]

leaderboards are also still experimental

leaderboards literally are a temporary feature to make playtesting fun
these were the developer words

they may keep it i guess
even if i'm not a fan of those

[stray saffron]

i think some statistics would be fun, like how often otto is pet. but things like most players killed and stuff like that makes it a bit too competitive

[cobalt obsidian]

yeah but they have also said that features that they had planned are not going in because players enjoyed that feature not being there... like fall damage.

If players want a leaderboard I can see them keeping it.

[smoky yoke]

i like fall damage

not ironically but i can understand

[stray saffron]

yeah i can understand fall damage being annoying, like i don't want to trip and lose 50% but if it's a moderate amount it's not bad

[atomic mountain]

Every extraction shooter has a competitive aspect, and stats would help you find ppl of similar skill

[stray saffron]

those extraction shooters are also alot more pvp central tho

[atomic mountain]

More? How is this less tho? I don’t see it

[cobalt obsidian]

Fall damage makes more sense in more controlled pvp situations I believe.. straight 3v3s... without gear differences...

There always needs to be room for skill expression... and some of the more arcadey features allow for that. Its a big help in 1vx situations.

Apex is a good example of that type of arcade movement allowing for skill to shine.

[atomic mountain]

Last I heard they wanted to put in fall damage but wanted to see what it’s like without it first as an experiment

I’m cool with either, it’s been funny to not have it

[cobalt obsidian]

there were times in The Cycle I wanted to use movement to win a 1vX and ended up hurting myself because I jumped off a roof and missed the landing.

But I had almost no chance of winning the situation had I not moved at all. Stuck in between a rock and a hard place.

[thorn ivy]

I think there should be minor fall damage. It should never outright kill you but jumping recklessly should carry some penalty

[cobalt obsidian]

The more you control the pvp the more it should be controlled, probably.

[atomic mountain]

I think that’s the plan at some point

[thorn ivy]

yeah even just to like force a bandage out or something, 30 damage or so max

I think it would be interesting if falling counted as physical damage and bubble effects counteracted that fall damage. Blue potions, protection from cleric

[atomic mountain]

A warrior with 95% dmg reduction would be slow but could do a superhero landing lmao

It’s prolly be true dmg tho. No reason why a full plate fighter should take less than a light or naked wizard

[stray saffron]

yeah if fall damage is a thing i'd rather it be universal instead of weight based, even if it would make sense or no lightweight perks to increase speed and decrease fall damage

[granite plinth]

Hope fall damage stays out tbh, more interesting to have monsters and traps at the bottom of large falls like it is currently

[fervent cliff]

Guys how to make a suggestion?

[atomic mountain]

Have you seen the interactive maps ppl made? Pretty sick, great for finding a rez shrine. Wouldn’t mind if there was a way to tell which map/layout we load into though

[stray saffron]

you can't currently, the bot was having issues and they're fixing it

[fervent cliff]

Okay, but when is it fixed? .sugest comand?

[smoky yoke]

they could have done it in a different way
like no fall damage
but after certain x meters then you receive fall damage

[stray saffron]

yeah that's what i'd think would be nicest. like falling certain distance like you miss the jump on a broken bridge and now you need to bandage or punish them with a limp for a little bit. or both

[tight gale]

Can we not create anymore suggestions?

[stray saffron]

just temporary while they're fixing the bot

[tight gale]

Ok

[wanton lintel]

I'm hearing a lot of people giving backlash against inventory weight, item appraisal, and item durability. I have good faith the developers won't break the game with these mechanics and will instead use it to balance the game and add more depth. What do you guys think?

[buoyant glacier]

Weight limits can go straight to hell and stay there forever. Especially when we have a cell based inventory system already.

[wanton lintel]

In classic DnD, weight limits almost never come into play except when doing ludicrous things like hauling an inventory full of rocks. What if the inventory cell system is expanded by a LOT but weight is added?

And I don't think they mentioned that you become slower by default

Many weight systems only slow you down after you become overencumbered (like carrying over 200 lbs)

[glacial sphinx]

They kinda seem unnecessary, and I don't like the idea of being slower with more treasure that much

[stray saffron]

the item weight i think will be pretty annoying, especially for fighters, appraisal i'm fine with and durability will be depending on how they do it. i'd hate for durability being so low i'd need 2 gears for a dungeon or if durability runs out it breaks or can't be used. durability with a lowered stats when broken i don't mind as much cause that's on you for not keeping it maintained

[atomic mountain]

Simpler=better in most things

[wanton lintel]

I agree that weight isn't necessary. I wonder if it can be a positive mechanic that makes armor more valuable since it will become more rare if it's heavier while pendants and rings will be easier to transport so it'll become easier to sell. Things like that.

I don't think it's going to reach the point where carrying 30 units of gear will actually significantly slow you down.

I think we should approach this from good faith from both perspectives.

@atomic mountain Charitably interpreting the "weight system" argument would not necessarily mean you're slower.

[atomic mountain]

I don’t see how inconvenience would make the game better. Especially if it affects combat.

[sick storm]

i believe Stealth should be built in Hide by default

[stray saffron]

i think it will be mostly a negative with weight as rogues become faster while fighters become even heavier snails. if they didn't go in naked before they surely would then. it all depends on how they plan to put it in the game in the end.

[wanton lintel]

Maybe it means you only get slower after exceeding your capacity, and then only by a little bit.

0 -> 200: Threshold
200 -> 300: -25% speed
300 - 500: -75% speed

Also, we don't know if fighters will go slower while wearing gear. It might only include carried gear in your inventory

@atomic mountain Just like in classic DnD, an inventory weight system is supposed to give you a max weight, not just slow you down for no reason. The point is so you don't carry 3,000 lbs of rocks out of the dungeon or something like that.

Though it may slow you down. I don't think it will prior to reaching max capacity, but that's my speculation.

[atomic mountain]

What’s the point of weight limits if it doesn’t slow you down?

[stray saffron]

they might have to add in more items than trinkets for weight then tho, like a full inventory of little trinkets wouldn't weigh much but if there was like a small barrel of wine that sells for more but is heavy could be an idea

[wanton lintel]

I know it sounds unfun from a quick glance, but I think it's important to consider what it would look like if it were implemented well AND what other implications there could be. Inventory space could be expanded, there might be heavy treasure that's worth a lot that shouldn't be hoarded, etc.

@stray saffron basically same idea

@atomic mountain Is there any way it could be implemented in a way that does not bother or inconvenience you?

[atomic mountain]

I trust the devs, but imo, the more complicated you make things, the harder it is to find some semblance of balance. It won’t make the game more appealing or more rewarding. It’s a hard no for me, but I’ll be playing whether it’s there or not.

[stray saffron]

i do think inventory space should stay the same, wouldn't want people to want to increase the stashes even more or fill it with a single inventory

[wanton lintel]

We can at least start from a basis that we agree inventory space shouldn't be infinite because that incentivizes hoarding

[atomic mountain]

If it doesn’t affect my movement, go for it. The second you say a goblet too many prevents me from ducking in and out of melee range, I’m out.

[wanton lintel]

@atomic mountain What role do you usually play?

@steel frost Some attributes of valuable or difficult-to-identify gear may be hidden and require time to "appraise" and discover the hidden traits gear has to offer.

[atomic mountain]

Let ppl hoard, doesn’t change how I play or enjoy the game lol

[steel frost]

What do you guys mean by gear appraisal?

[stray saffron]

i mean it does speak toward my inner loot goblin...love myself a big hoard. but yeah that's not what the game is about unless you could do something with it.

like if housing is a thing i'd love an armor stand or 2 where i could copy armor on that i found, like that it persist like a picture of the best gear i found and can be proud of

[wanton lintel]

It may affect the game's economy and make other people very rich very quickly, and rare gear might be a lot less rare than it should be

[atomic mountain]

I play support, front line, and ranged

[atomic mountain]

So let them get rich lol

[stray saffron]

i do think if they decide to add weight that mining needs an extreme overhaul. ore would be something very heavy and if you need too much of it making it not worth in another sense

[steel frost]

Ahh yeah gotcha, I would love some kind of Wiki in the future that gives details on what all of the stats do so I can better understand which attributes to prioritize.

[wanton lintel]

You don't have any issue with gear inflation? I don't mean to sound like a boomer talking about stocks, but the game may be less balanced than it's supposed to be

@steel frost yeah me too, wiki isn't developed as it should be. I think Intelligence is used to appraise, but it might have been Will instead. I only knew about the feature because mousing over it showed what it did

[atomic mountain]

There’s going to be wipes anyways

[steel frost]

I don't think gear inflation will be much of an issue. Presumably wipes will happen every 2-3 months or so and people will still gear fear their best sets a lot.

[hushed plover]

Somebody stole my outlet that is #suggest channel and I know it's one of you. Where is it you fools!?

[stray saffron]

bot is being worked on, broken by too many suggestions probably asking to release early access already

[steel frost]

Wait now I'm confused again. I thought appraising gear was just us figuring out if an item has good rolls or not. Do you mean some kind of in-game feature? Is it tied to "Item identification speed" which I could not figure out for the life of me

[regal lion]

I like the idea of a monk class

[wanton lintel]

While gear wipes are still good for re-balancing the economy, it's a partial-fix for a persistent issue if gear is acquired too quickly.

Gear Inflow vs Gear Outflow

Inflow -> Looting & Purchasing from NPCs
Outflow -> Churn (dying with loot) and Durability Break

Inflow is increased by increasing inventory size / carrying capacity

Outflow is increased by increasing how dangerous maps are and adding durability

@regal lion I think Monk will be the third or fourth class implemented from now

@steel frost That is exactly what that means, but it's also an in-game feature that has not yet been implemented

@tight gale They said bard and sorcerer will be next-up. I speculate third or fourth will be monk because that's a classic RPG-DnD class

[granite plinth]

Keeping economy in check is important to keep the end game achievable for new players

[tight gale]

What classes have they said will drop?

[hushed plover]

Bot should just skip any suggestions regarding release date, demo, let us play and stuff like that

@tight gale Bard is next, later down the line something of a warlock

[stray saffron]

if only it could recognise suggestions that were already made right?

[wanton lintel]

And also delete repeat suggestions. I've seen dozens of auction house suggestions.
@stray saffron irony

[steel frost]

I heard the devs had sped up progression (as in xp gains so players can hit level 15 fairly quick for the playtest) and as such I would assume drop rates might have also been increased to pretty much speed up progression as a whole since the playtest was only planned to run for a week

[atomic mountain]

That’s because they keep pushing back on the idea that is obvious to the players to be a great addition

[hushed plover]

Can't agree. If people ask for something daily and it gets nearly hundred likes each time I think it should signal priority and not a need to dampen the intensity of community's requests

[stray saffron]

i mean if people voted up or down on one suggestion instead of a few on multiple of the same it might have a bigger impact

[wanton lintel]

I think popular suggestions should be on a different page so they can stay extremely visible. I agree that super common suggestions shouldn't be censored into obscurity for being re-suggested, but it shouldn't be suggested 20 different times, just upvoted 200 times.

The devs share a similar sentiment with me about player interaction being a good thing, so a crappy trade chat might be better than a lifeless auction house, but it still depends.

@regal lion I like that balance

[regal lion]

I really liked the trade system i hope they keep the chats and stuff but it may be nice to have a auction house only for really good stuff but i wouldnt want it to take away from the chat rooms, so the auction house should have much higher gold fees or something

[atomic mountain]

Yeah they’ve said everything was buffed , xp, loot drops, etc. it will all be toned down on release

[wanton lintel]

I'm not against an auction house, but I am against removing player to player interaction. The more the merrier imo

[hushed plover]

Btw I loved your crafting suggestions. Well put together. Right now I didn't even try crafting as a mining seemed boring and not that rewarding compared to player killing. I hope they make crafting worthwhile and not just trading in stuff to npcs and back to you

I also hope we can scavenge players for ears/souls on top of that too.

[granite plinth]

Hope it wasn't sped up too much, it'd be a shame if people have to spend more time getting the stuff they want to play with than actually playing with it. One of the most refreshing parts of this game is the step away from the grindy gatcha feeling games been having recently

[atomic mountain]

Exactly what I’ve been saying. A lot of ppl think this it seems

[hushed plover]

I liked that I could sell my stuff in under 15 seconds but I absolutely hated sitting for an hour just to get a few pieces of gear with physical resistance for my fighter. The channels should also be purged and mixed into one so that I can buy leather boots in from everyone and don't have to jump from chat to chat.

I'd like to see them try implementing live trading and AH together. This way you could sell your stuff when you go to sleep and buy them quick when you get up while at the same time you could quickly dump your loot into the trading chat.

[atomic mountain]

I don’t even feel like there is much value in the player to player interaction. I traded with SoBadStrange once, other than that I wasn’t there to interact, I was there for my burger and to gtfo.

[regal lion]

Honestly just add another chat for all class items just like the chat for pendants and stuff

[granite plinth]

I like the current trade system too, think an auction house might be too efficient for the game's economy to stay healthy

But the chats need to be organized by something other than class. Maybe just item type.

[steel frost]

Regarding auction house/ trading posts:
IMO if you add further ways to filter results it would help a lot. Being able to filter by rarity and attributes on the items in addition to what we had last playtest would make things easier to find.
What annoyed me the most was actually getting a trade. On the last night of the playtest, people were just cashing out all their gold and if somebody posted an item with good stats they would get 10 trade requests within 1-2 seconds. Even if you requested to trade the instant the item was posted, you request would be buried under other requests as they cascade over previous ones.

[wanton lintel]

I get that it's not super in-depth interaction and that's a fair criticism. It's better than a void of emptiness w/o any kind of dynamic live trading though. How do you think we should get interaction otherwise?

[atomic mountain]

Yeah more would be better but you’re still faced with the issue that you have to be lucky enough for the person selling the item you want to be they’re actively selling it when you want it and have them not be busy when you go to request a trade with them you need the sun the moon and the stars to a line just to find the gear you want at the price you want whereas if you just had an auction house you can just search for the exact item you want to go buy for 50 golden go on your merry way

[hushed plover]

After browsing reddit and suggestions people are split 50/50 on AH and live trading. So why not try to implement both in the next playtest and see where it leads us. Right now is the best time to test stuff like this.

[steel frost]

Oh yeah I agree with that. Especially with how quick lobbies filled up. Even if you died with a super juicy kit, you could be back in business after three or four runs plus a trip to the trading post.
Having to grind out 10 or so rounds to get a full set would really bum me out.

[regal lion]

But killing someone with all the loot and gear would make it that much more satisfying

[atomic mountain]

I feel like people are only split 50-50 because they’re being nostalgic not because they’re being logical they want the old tray chat system because it reminds them of a 20 year old mechanic from RuneScape not because it’s efficient and it’s a positive aspect of the game that makes the gameplay fun

[granite plinth]

Not opposed but I will say we have seen how auction house style trading plays out in many many games already

[atomic mountain]

Guilds.

[wanton lintel]

People who want an auction house system:

• Want more time playing the game and less time trading
• Don't like the unsophisticated trading channel

People who don't want an auction house system:

• Don't want to reduce player interaction

Overall, auction house has more advantages, but I don't think the concern about the reduced player interaction should be ignored
@atomic mountain This is a perfect solution. Guild wars / competitions would be even better.

[granite plinth]

More people spending more time at the fun points in the game is healthier for the game over all

[steel frost]

This could probably work. Looking at classic WoW you can still make a good amount of Gold standing in a main city and yelling out that you're offering to craft items or trade goods for a certain price as you are able to undercut the auction house trading fee-

[hushed plover]

I personally prefer AH since I can spend a lot more time actually playing the game while my stuff sells while im gaming or im asleep. I can also buy gear just sitting hot and ready on the market and not fight and race randoms to buy some gear. That I despise. Like I said though, selling my stuff in the trade chat in under 10 seconds is a blessing ;D

[regal lion]

Getting the loot is the fun point i thought not much of a goal after that unless you lose it?

[atomic mountain]

I never had any complaints about the World of Warcraft auction house system sure there was some bots sniping stuff and sure there was people using macros but for the most part it didn’t change how most people use the auction house to buy an item at the price they want and just go on about their day And you also got a think about it from the other perspective of you want to sell items your inventories for you’ve got tons of gold but you’ve got items that you want to get rid of if you could do it in a more efficient hands-off approach cool maybe there’s a higher Gold fee attached to that and if you want to stand in the middle of the Square and yell out to people that you got something you want to sell maybe that’s cool for some people to

[granite plinth]

It's reasonable but the AH likely comes with more gold sinks and reduction in loot etc etc to keep the economy from imploding

Many people didn't complain about wow's ah but did complain about changes that were made as concessions to the ah

[stray saffron]

something i'd love to see is player owned stores. like you pay or rent a stash where you can list items. a search option can lead people to your store and it's either first come first serve or people can ask you to remove the item and offer you a deal for it if they don't have the gold for it

[atomic mountain]

Yeah that’s exactly what I’ve been suggesting you know a limit on how many items you can post every 24 hours and Ima hefty gold fee if you list some thing for a super high price and it doesn’t sell well guess what you gotta pay like 30% of the listing price every time it doesn’t sell or something

[steel frost]

I would really enjoy having an auction house as I spent a lot of time just spamming my items in trade channel. Most of the time, the items were only just good enough to sell on the trade post rather than just vendoring it but as it wasn't a very high-tier item there wasn't much interest. Being able to just post it on an AH for a cheap price would give me more time to get back in the dungeon and also free up my stash.

[regal lion]

taxes 🥹

[mint breach]

Reinventing capitalism are we?

[wanton lintel]

Auction house for big items where you don't want to spend 8 hours finding the best price
Trade chat for small-medium items where you just wanna sell something quick in ~10 minutes tops
@mint breach the economy in this game is unironically sensitive to economic theory

[atomic mountain]

The only time I actually stopped playing dark and darker and just decided to take a nap instead of playing when I wanted to keep playing was when I had to spend six straight hours trying to re-gear my character even though I had gold on hand I just couldn’t find the right items at the right prices

[granite plinth]

You know thats totally fair and valid. I think using the loot is also fun and you're always getting loot but not always using your favorite weapon or whatever so not much effort has to be put in to keeping the looters fun but special care has to be taken in design to maximize loot user's fun if that makes sense.

[stray saffron]

wouldn't it at that point been better to just not fully be geared and go into a dungeon? it's not Trade and Trader after all it's bri-i mean dark and darker

[atomic mountain]

The only aspect about this game that I thoroughly don’t enjoy was trade chat but even having said that I don’t want it to be gone I just want another option alongside it

[wanton lintel]

I don't mind being a trade goblin tbh

I just don't want to do it all the time

[atomic mountain]

No because my teammates had full sets of spare gear ready and waiting and I don’t want to go into a dungeon naked when they’re fully geared ready to go in the high rollers again

[stray saffron]

then tell your teammate to not be selfish and share with you if they have spares?

[regal lion]

Now will there be timed auctions or instant buy, both is acceptable

[leaden jacinth]

The game Kingdom of Loathing has a player mall with that exact idea. You pay a fee and get your own little store where you can list items for sale at any price

[atomic mountain]

We’re playing different characters and if I have gold on hand that I can use to lift myself up by my bootstraps then that’s what I should do

My point is that if I have gold on hand to replace a full set of gear I shouldn’t have to spend six hours doing it that’s all. Because you have to actively be entry chat while somebody is also actively in trade chat selling an item that you want at the price you want and you also have to be the ones that they get into a trade with and it Hass to be at a reasonable price while you’re both sitting there it’s just too many things at the same time that have to happen in order for you to find one piece of gear at a time

[stray saffron]

i'm still not seeing why not playing the game is a better way to spend your time than trying to gear up. in those 6 hours you could have been going in and out of low and high roller many times over and finding good gear

[wanton lintel]

You do know there was a filter option?

[granite plinth]

Then buy from your teammates :p (I think your approach is more reasonable than everyone @ you but couldn't resist)

[steel frost]

Even with a filter option, you still have to sift through all the longswords with +magical damage until you find an item thats actually worth buying

[wanton lintel]

While true, an enhanced filter option would resolve this issue

[steel frost]

@wanton lintel bump

[atomic mountain]

And that’s all good and well but it’s if you can wear Lightfoots and everybody else can wear Lightfoots how do you find the Lightfoots that are right for your barbarian if they’re trying to sell them over in the fighters den but you aren’t there at the time they are?

[regal lion]

Mabye if they add the auction house with instant buy there is a limit to the price so people still use chat trading and timed auctions on items that actully are good and should take time to be bought while the meduim grade items can be bought faster

[wanton lintel]

This is a valid criticism and I think you should be able to search across all of them.

Data filtering is one of my specialties 😎
It can be done, it's just whether the devs wanna double-down on this trade chat

[granite plinth]

It was kinda nice that imperfect items got the same visibility as perfect ones tbh. Everyone just filtering for absolutely perfect stats would make a lot of drops meaningless in a hurry. As it was more people were more willing to buy stuff that was acceptable instead of perfect which kept things a little more interesting

[errant dawn]

If they just made it where the seller could put an item on the market without having to babysit it. All the issues people have would more than likely be fixed. That’s if they also added a better filter system aswell

[atomic mountain]

Keep a trade chat, add an auction house everybody’s happy

[granite plinth]

This would make the market a lot more saturated in terms of supply which might not be as great as it sounds

[atomic mountain]

But trying to make the trade chat become the auction house by changing it isn’t going to be a perfect solution you can use the wrench like a hammer but it’s not a hammer lol

[wanton lintel]

Limits on number of active item sales, taxes, and/or holding fees would reduce saturation

[granite plinth]

Reasonable ideas. Likely discourages sales of lower ticket items disproportionately to higher ticket ones. Players will be able to sell much less of their loot overall and what does get sold will end up prohibitively expensive.

Maybe avoidable with a lot of specific tweaking to numbers but yikes

[errant dawn]

Imma be honest I don’t understand economics or trade or anything like that. But I imagine somthing similar to what tarkov has would be better than what we have now.

[rose aspen]

How do i submit a suggestion?

[regal lion]

I think big taxes is the best for ah and same low taxes for chat trades

[tight gale]

Its down rn

[atomic mountain]

Exactly what myself and others have been suggesting! I don’t even know what the fee is for between players… what broker am I paying for?! It’s just me and JoeRanger here lol

[granite plinth]

Yeah like some large north of 50% for ah and the small flat gold fee that already exists for chat trades? That might be alright

[regal lion]

50%??? 🥹 taxe

[atomic mountain]

Make it 50% and it’ll be dead, nobody paying that

[wanton lintel]

But a percentage is the way to go imo. Flat tax just disincentivizes selling cheap gear.

[atomic mountain]

10g between players, if at all. 15-20g per AH sale. Percentage should only come into play of the item keeps getting re-listed at a stupid price nobody pays

[granite plinth]

They are paying it if their item is worth enough and it should be heavily disincentivized to use the AH if it's not very heavy handed all the problems will occur just a little more slowly

[regal lion]

needs to a percentage where its just barely higher then the already paid 15G when you use chat trade so when you buying those 50G items you pay more in the auction house 25% may sound like a ton cause it is but i think thatlle be fairer on lower trades but there may be a system where higher price less percantage tax

[granite plinth]

20g is 30% and 25g is 50% already 😂 sounds kinda like we agree

[atomic mountain]

I mean the details can get worked out in post but the thing that concerns me the most is that the devs for some reason don’t want an auction house. and I’m just glad to hear that for the most part the player base wants an auction house and they’re just gonna have to put one in if enough people want it

[regal lion]

well there needs to be a line of it should be easier but more of a downfall to yourself for useing the auction house But 50% at higher trades is insane

[granite plinth]

But it should definitely be implemented in a way that people "want" to use chat trades and only put stuff on ah for convenience even though it's ripping them off basically

AH should very much feel not worth it. People will use it anyway.

[atomic mountain]

Making the auction house feel like a rip off an order to incentivize people to use tree chat is not the right approach

[regal lion]

yes so 25% for trades under 100G then over 100-500G 20% then 500-1000G 15%

[granite plinth]

it should probably scale up in % as it gets more expensive not down, otherwise it becomes too easy to hoard wealth

[regal lion]

well you still lose more money with what i said but going up in percantage makes it way harder to balance prices on user end

[atomic mountain]

Even if you make the difference between the auction house and trade chat marginal people are still gonna wanna use trade chat when they have more time than money To burn you don’t need to make the auction house sufferable in order to make something the other option look better

[granite plinth]

How else do you balance the incentive? If you're going to say it's not right please at least provide an alternative approach that provides the same incentive to using trade chat over AH

You don't want the people with money to burn being the ones with the most incentive to use the AH over the ones with time Dolan. It has to be unattractive across the board in that way to balance against its convenience or itll only bandaid all the issues an AH brings. It has to be slowed down enough that it can't snowball before each reset.

[regal lion]

i think scaling down is alot more tolerable

[solemn frigate]

I was working on a weapon for the poll... but it's disabled to add?

[atomic mountain]

I’m not really sure what incentive needs balanced so I don’t know how to respond. Like other people have suggested make trading between players slightly less of a fee but it doesn’t need to be a robbery to use the auction house. Being way more time efficient, but way more expensive would result in a zero sum game and therefore the AH would have no advantage over trade chat

The advantage of using one over the other doesn’t have to be huge in order to encourage people to use both for different things at different times for different reasons some people would happily use trade chat if the gold fee was only 10 gold difference Or if they hit their limit for auction uses for the day and can’t use it anymore

[wanton lintel]

I think implementing guilds and an auction house together (not as the same entity obviously) would satisfy both the concerns of those that want to maintain player interaction outside of the dungeon as well as the concerns of those that don't want trading to consume their playtime.

[granite plinth]

Exactly? The point is that any advantage AH has over trade chat needs to be nearly or even completely nullified or the economy will go the way of the economy in every mmo.

It's exactly as you say the AH has a natural advantage of time efficiency and that needs to be counterbalanced if the two are to exist side by side.

It sounds like you're suggesting that the AH should be advantageous to use. That would be ruinous.

If anything it should be tweaked so the AH is at a slight disadvantage, because people will still favor convenience. Short of that safeguard it probably isn't good to implement at all.

[tidal raptor]

The fee is pretty low as it is 15 gp aren't that hard to make

[atomic mountain]

Name an mmo that was “ruined” because of the way their auction house was implemented

[regal lion]

hypixel skyblock

[tidal raptor]

New World had a massive inflation

[atomic mountain]

It’s still a new game and it’s growing like crazy. Next.

[wanton lintel]

The flat fee is important because it means that:
(15g + [Npc offer]) = Break-even selling price
And to be worth the user's time, the selling price should be 15g + NpcOffer + (user's time-derivative worth in gold) which means only blues and up will realistically be sold as it currently stands

Also, weight limits and deflated gear drop rates can counterbalance AH

[granite plinth]

Literally every single one ends up hyperinflated name one that isn't?

This game at least has a reset going for it but things still have to be kept in check leading up to each reset.

[regal lion]

i think the 15G is good for chat trade but for AH i think percantage is better

[atomic mountain]

The money we buy bread with is subject to inflation, it’s just a part of any economic system

[granite plinth]

True but deflated gear drops also weakens the play experience is that a worthwhile exchange?

And Dolan hyperinflation!=inflation they're different.

[regal lion]

all inflation will be solved with only 3 escape portals from dungeon 1 and 1 escape in hell

[atomic mountain]

I’m still waiting to hear what mmos have been ruined by hyperinflation due to having an auction house system that didn’t rob you

[granite plinth]

Just scroll up wdym

[atomic mountain]

Every mmo in existence 👍

[wanton lintel]

It does not necessarily weaken the player experience. I think there is an ideal rate of gear inflation.

Generally speaking, the average rarity of gear logarithmically approaches a certain value.

In the playtest, this value was around blue-purple.

This is an equilibrium of gear inflow vs outflow. By adjusting this, the player experience can be optimized.

Sidenote: I put my contacts in after eating spicy food and my eyes burn ouch ouch ouch

[heady pine]

owie eyes owie

[atomic mountain]

My ex had a similar experience after I ate a jalapeño burger

[granite plinth]

Yeah you're deliberately conflating a ruined economy with a completely ruined game and trying to use that to (tbh I'm not even sure what your goal is?) But the reality is that a ruined economy detracts from a game where collection is a feature and the goal should be the game being as good as it can be?

[bronze wigeon]

man we need a soloable but unteamable boss to kill and matter in the HR leaderboard

[regal lion]

troll

[native cargo]

How do you guys feel about wizards having a very small health regeneration when meditating? I don’t maybe like 5-10 health regen every mediation? It’s just a thought I don’t even play wizard lol

[atomic mountain]

Look I don’t disagree that the auction house should have a higher fee attached to it to bring it in balance of the trade chat but I don’t think they should be robbery in the same sense that trade chat robs me of time. people are still gonna want to use both for different reasons even if the difference between the gold fee is marginal.

[regal lion]

I dont think this would be the best i would rather they add a monk or something that can do that instead

[native cargo]

Noted

[granite plinth]

This average takes into account the use of the AH/ trade in this case yes? Would it not be ideal to not have to balance around that so new players don't have to interface outside the core gameplay loop to achieve average?

[atomic mountain]

Even if you’re really geared you can still die pretty easily by making one or two bad mistakes and That’s the outflow that Byte is talking about

[wanton lintel]

It may include it, but it depends on the percentile of the player.

[atomic mountain]

And the devs have already stated that the loot drops aren’t going to be as common as they are right now when the game drops

[granite plinth]

Fair enough, I think the 'robbery' should be very equivalent and serves a purpose. We can disagree.

[atomic mountain]

I think we agree, but just not on what number lol If you make the auction house so unattractive to use that I can’t even use it to get greens then, for me, I wouldn’t like that.

[granite plinth]

How do you mean

[cobalt obsidian]

why is there a balance that needs to be struck anyways between the trade chat and an auction house?

The people that love to barter and sit there communicating to people in the chat room can do that. The people that dont like that can go to the auction house. Boom.

[atomic mountain]

Well because the auction house is more convenient and time efficient but naturally it should be less gold efficient we’re just having a discussion on how severe that should be

[cobalt obsidian]

You might find a better deal sitting there taking the time to haggle with people. The auction house provides the luxury of setting it and forgetting it.

Shit will be more expensive by nature. Lets not make this game tedious.

[rugged pilot]

Because devs don't want a quick automatic trade function

Specifically want player interaction

[granite plinth]

Simply put, you won't be able to buy/sell anything that doesn't have perfect rolls in a way that is meaningful for more than a couple of days per reset if it isn't implemented well.

[cobalt obsidian]

that defeats the point of this conversation breeze.

We are discussing an auction house. Right? You can not partake in that. Or say it will never happen.

[atomic mountain]

I don’t know why they have that fixation . for me trading has nothing to do with interacting with another player they’re just a name and they got something that I want and I got the gold and they want the gold I don’t make friends while trading I’m just trying to get the gear that I want to put on so I can go play the game with my friends that I play with

[cobalt obsidian]

All i know is I personally hate the trade chat. Its not fun to me at all. I tolerated it at the beginning, much like a few different things in this game tbh.

[rugged pilot]

Thats why the discussion even exists. We know AH would be better than what we have, but the developers WANT specific player interaction for the trade feature. So if you aren't suggesting interactive trade ideas its a pointless discussion

[wanton lintel]

Please view the following chart I have created: https://imgur.com/a/GFu0gnE

This explains and visualizes the gear inflation over time and the effects that deflationary and inflationary policies/game mechanics have on rarity and gear valuation.

[atomic mountain]

If they want to encourage more player interaction they need to put more things in the game that encourage player interaction trading is just business and sometimes killing a player is just business lol They’re gonna put guilds in the game and having it to where your stash isn’t shared between your characters already encourages a bunch of player interaction I give away gear all the time to people can use it because I don’t want to bother moving it

[rugged pilot]

This is exactly what they are trying to do by making new features player interactive

[cold condor]

scamming, now that's a player interaction

[tepid citrus]

Goblin trader but with a new Rerolling stats feature and it’s based on quality of gear and only has 3 reset max for each piece of gear. Anyone anyone?

[mighty willow]

its basically impossible to scam with the current trading system, just check the item

[wanton lintel]

and if anyone can give feedback on the quick chart I posted above, I would appreciate. It's not a masterwork but I hope it explains it well

[atomic mountain]

But being opposed to an auction house system alongside a trade chat system just because “player interaction” just doesn’t hold up

[rugged pilot]

Only scamming if both of you know the worth of the item.

Taking advantage of someones ineptitude or lack of research is not scamming

[white cliff]

Love this philosophy, limited storage is intentional and is how the game is meant to function. However, you forget that players use this interaction to create loot mules across characters. For example Orlanthi had a mule just off his golden keys.

[wanton lintel]

there's a scam where speedy trades swap out rare gear for common gear since the background is identical in both. Even though the buyer should have checked, it's still a common scam

@white cliff that should be bannable (at least for his mule) tbh

[cold condor]

Scamming almost always requires one party not doing their due dilligence

[atomic mountain]

3 candies look like 8, seen that too

[merry valve]

This, I feel, is why any inflationary practices (such as a larger stash), should be balanced out by deflationary practices (a tax whenever moving items to or from the larger stash of the example I just gave).

As is, we can be sure that the later releases will see significantly slower inflation than these playtests for a few reasons: Better gear found is probably faster for testing purposes, and we'll be starting at B1 instead of B2 which has worse loot and see more players eliminated before reaching B2 (and the gear levels we're used to)

[cobalt obsidian]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TxXT51Jp35w I saw this one a few times.

[rugged pilot]

Yes thats a scam. Both parties know the value of candy or coloured gear, one party scammed.

Selling a blue sword with bad rolls for 1000g is not scamming

[atomic mountain]

If you had an auction house and you could filter for # of items in a listing that also wouldn’t be a problem lol

[mighty willow]

Yeah, so just check the item and easy. If you dont do it from the start on you will after you got scammed once I guess.

[granite plinth]

Yes perfect thank you for making that. I think ideally the capacity of new players to transition from first quartile to average player purely from within the core gameplay loop should be preserved and I'm not sure that trading in any way is within that loop and instead serves as a step up for players who become more invested (because of an egaging and fun core experience).