q-and-a

[winged girder]

One can be derogatory to people with problems. Calling. Someone a mop is very different

[terse lynx]

How about a broom

People will be offended when it benefits them.

[hushed rune]

So apparently spazz is an insult exclusive to the British. Also good point Major. If you don't like people talking in voip then mute them. If you don't like the way other players name them selves because it hurts your feelings then report them/turn on streamer mode.

[winged girder]

That's a very broad brush to tar everyone but okay.
And it's not specifically British. Where did that come from

I'm. Sorry you cant use your name. I just put out why I think it might not be allowed.

[terse lynx]

A spazz where I am from is someone you can't predict, they tend to do the unpredictable. A loon if you will.

[hushed rune]

I googled the insult and it shows me a bunch of british english dictionaries and also in the "People also ask" there is this question - What does Spazz mean in UK?

[terse lynx]

Oh Loon... there is a good one.

[winged girder]

I have no idea how it works. I couldn't use SirtilbotTTV but I could use SirtilbotTV.

[hushed rune]

Don't be sorry. I have nothing against you ^^

[terse lynx]

Your follower took your name then

[winged girder]

Nah I got the same message as spazz reported before

I doubt any of my followers even care enough to do that lol

[terse lynx]

I seen plenty of TTV names

[winged girder]

Yeah me too

Maybe with the extra T it was tryna make the word titty or something fuck knows

[terse lynx]

Either way, @devs please fix the name filter, it is too strong.

[winged girder]

Or at least tell us what the issue is If the filter tags something.

[terse lynx]

I mean cummybear was playing with Pestily for 2 playtest

Cummybear... is allowed, but Vague and Spazz is not..

Which means I could more than likely make the name cumstain...

Thats an insult

[placid tangle]

Woah that’s a weird dark and darker link

[elder portal]

<@&988703997378584596> Spam message

Thanks 😄

[dawn plaza]

Thanks!

[desert remnant]

Filters imo are just meh in general. Anything can be offensive if used 'correctly', and slurs only have meaning when you allow them to. Its tiring to have stuff filtered out all the time.

And im australian. Half the stuff the average person would say would be deemed offensive elsewhere, when its not at all offensive here.

[burnt badger]

is there going to be a way to change the FOV in the upcoming playtest?

[desert remnant]

Hope not. Increasing feels like giving myself a headache or being disadvantaged.

[neat bramble]

Hope so. Increasing feels like it would prevent giving myself headaches.

[grave jungle]

so next test will be from 6th-12th february?

[rain saddle]

Probably not that exact, but it will be around then

[timber mist]

The profanity filter will be much better in the future.
Your name should be okay when it is fixed 🙂

[waxen pilot]

do i automatically get in to the next play test if i was apart of the last?

if not is there a way I can sign up now?

[rain saddle]

No. You specifically don't get to join the playtest. (joke)

[waxen pilot]

lol thanks

[storm nova]

Everybody gets to take part in the playtest regardless of were you in the last one or not

[waxen pilot]

perfect . thank you guys

[lunar ember]

Did anyone test whether magic damage effects rouges bleeds/poisons?

[quartz bear]

Rogue rupture was magic damage.

[lusty cloud]

is mr Graysun a developer?

[lunar ember]

Awesome thanks!

[quartz bear]

Out of 26 of their employees only one isnt a dev. So odds are. Yes.

[bright knot]

@timber mist Do the devs read all of the suggestions in "d-and-d-suggestions"? I noticed that the ones that get a high percentage of up votes are marked green, but there are lots of suggestions that should've been marked green that are still marked blue because the stats didn't get calculated.

Can someone tell me where the doors that require a lockpick are? I've played for 34 hours and never seen one.

[warm oar]

There were locked cells in the jail.

[foggy bolt]

when is the next playtest?

[rain saddle]

f e b r u a r y

[fossil parrot]

There was also a locked metal door that wasn't just a cell

It was closer to the center, around one of the altar of sacrifices, if you couldn't lockpick it you had to backtrack a little and go around the altar of sacrifice room

[trim gust]

i mean this is one of the few games where my name isnt offensive in it. so its quite nice.

[clear haven]

In spanish spazz doesnt mean anything. I hope you enjoyed this information 👍

[short sleet]

How did people get access to previous playtests? Do we know how to get into future playtests?

[warm adder]

The games steam page had a button to request access that was auto granted when you clicked it

[warm adder]

Wait it was? I thought the tool tip stated physical damage for rupture but poison weapon was magic, never tested on a dummy myself for rupture though so unsure on that

[quartz bear]

Might of been a glitch, I did big magic damage on first hit with rupture on the dummy.

[warm adder]

Interesting, I'll note that for later thanks ☺️

[nocturne root]

Will the stricter licensing for D&D derivatives have a negative impact on the game's development, since it seems to draw a bit from D&D?

[quartz bear]

So many games take from dungeons and dragons, the class system isnt copyright material. I don't think copy right will come into play at all unless if dark and darker somehow steals lore from dungeons and dragons.

[nocturne root]

Hope so, but fear of something like mimics being iconic to D&D and having to take that out would suck. Those suckers get me everytime.

[timber mist]

Yes they get read, it just takes some time.
I always write down the suggestions/feedback that I believe should get more attention.

[warped ivy]

Which ones are currently your favorite? 😛

[rain saddle]

That's amazing

[timber mist]

Top secret!

[naive hinge]

when open beta ? cba to play on a playtest

[twilit sparrow]

I will literally paypal you $200 if you get the interaction box for small lootable items like bangles/gems/rings and stuff to be both solid so there's no gap in the middle and also slightly larger so that we don't have to do the weird jiggling around infront of shelves trying to get the hitbox for a tiny item

[stray spruce]

I wonder if a mechanic/skill/ability for rogues to lock doors would be viable or break the game's flow?

Maybe not unlimited, something like the traps

[prisma marsh]

how often are Troudbadour apps looked into ?

[timber mist]

Everyday, very big list.
Basically I start where I left off 🙂

[bright knot]

<@&988703997378584596> I just got a direct message from Mee6. Is that the Discord bot? The message says "That word is not allowed here". I have no clue which word this is referring to.

[timber mist]

This means your message got automatically deleted because a word was in the filter list.

[rotund crypt]

How can I support this game as a 3D artist?

[bright knot]

I forget. Can you hear the dark swarm approaching?

[raven beacon]

I don’t Believe so no

Correct me if I’m wrong

[warped ivy]

Not as of Playtest 3.

[tawdry hollow]

Is there anyway I can play this?

[warped ivy]

Feb. 6th you can

[tawdry hollow]

awesome ty

[trim gust]

yea i doubt it would be an issue as almost any game can have a mimic. unless they start making anything be a mimic. as it can be in D&D then it wont be a problem. cause in D&D a house can be a mimic. just about anything can be to be honest.

[shy depot]

But was Rogue's Poison Magic Damage as well?

[desert remnant]

im not sure then taking out mimics would matter regardless, i think it was just an example

but its hard, because even if they do all DnD classes, and all take inspiration from them, they still wont be close enough to ever be considered infringing, unless ability names are all the same, and mechanics become more similar, which they arnt.
they would need to do a lot to infringe on DnD.

[quartz bear]

Yes.

[wicked summit]

As much as I hate it, I’m actually quite surprised at how accurate you need to be to pick up items

[karmic meadow]

when is the next playtest?

[past spruce]

should be today but i dunno what time

[karmic meadow]

you are joking O.o

do you got a link for it?

[past spruce]

no not at all you see it coming out wiht steams next fest so whenever the next fest starts is when playtest will be active i think

[hushed rune]

https://store.steampowered.com/news/app/2016590/view/3612481452330815451?l=english

fixed the link

[karmic meadow]

there stands nothing with a new playtest 😮

[karmic meadow]

aaaahhhh#

[hushed rune]

it says that it is coming early feb

[karmic meadow]

alrighty ❤️

[past spruce]

the next fest is today

[quaint wagon]

Read #📢announcements it will always have info relevant to a playtest

[past spruce]

it just hasnt started yet

[past spruce]

what he said

[karmic meadow]

ah than 6. Feb

not january bro 😄

[past spruce]

huh wdym

did i missread somthing

[karmic meadow]

yess steam feast starts on 6. February 😄

[past spruce]

no way lmao

[karmic meadow]

so one month to wait 😄

[past spruce]

i cant believe it

oh my good god

[karmic meadow]

dude you gave me a little bit of happiness 😄

[past spruce]

yes you happiness and me a major let down dude i cleared my schedule for the week for this

[neon junco]

hi!

[karmic meadow]

bruh haha 😄

[past spruce]

i feel like an idiot

[neon junco]

when will the game be available to download on steam for the next open testing?

[karmic meadow]

next month

[neon junco]

during this event? Steam Next Fest will take place February 6-13, 2023 @10AM Pacific

[karmic meadow]

yess

[neon junco]

okay, perfect. Thank you

its like a combo of genres and things i like

dnd, rogue-like, escape-survival

[crude lantern]

it's basically Dungeons & Dragons x Escape from Tarkov

hence why we call it Escape from Darkov

[warped yew]

Hey quick question does anyone know if the new OGL 1.1 that Wizards of The Coast is going to release for new dnd edition and all others retroactively will affect this game?

[dull pendant]

I don’t see why it would

[desert remnant]

yeah, this game has taken inspiration from DnD. They are not even close to the same games.

and inspiration on almost... base edition

[tawny haven]

So no playtest today?

[quaint wagon]

#📢announcements

[tawny haven]

Wasn't the event supposed to start 3 hours ago

[tepid monolith]

next month

[quaint wagon]

Read the third paragraph

[tepid monolith]

feb not jan

[quaint wagon]

It’s literally in the most recent post in announcements

[tawny haven]

rip

[quaint wagon]

“In February during”

[simple jetty]

do we know if, say, a fighter or a barb's Will stat will affect the damage that they do when they're Ignite'd by a wizard? or if the wizard's Will affects them either?

since that ignite dmg should be magic dmg, i'd think any magic dmg + gear the fighter wears should raise their dmg while ignited. but also wondering if a wizard with high Will gear will cause their tms to do more dmg

[placid bridge]

So is the BR ring going to be a permanent mechanic?

[dire flume]

do they plan on having bard added for next playtest? or is that going to be down the line

[cunning panther]

they said they wont have time iirc

[dire flume]

ah ok

[simple jetty]

yes.

unless it isn't. idk i'm not a dev. but it's been there for all 3 playtests so far. seems likely.

they need a way to push players closer together

[thick egret]

yeah, plus its perfect for this type of game

its better than just a flat out timelimit to escape

they kinda want people to people pushed against each other and fight over limited portals

[honest acorn]

When is the next playtest?

[heady arrow]

In theory, in February's Steamfest (6 - 13 Feb)
pd: good pfp

[honest acorn]

thanks

[old belfry]

Has there been more info regarding randomly/procedurally-generated maps? Maybe a stand-alone game mode (Standard, High-roller, Random).

[thick egret]

not really no

im pretty sure they will prolly add more rooms that can spawn in a dungeon

like randomly

but the layout for the dungeon should remain the same

[old belfry]

True, I just can't help but fantasize about spawning in a dungeon, not knowing what to expect in the next room. Maybe it's two gold chests right off the bat, maybe it's a room chalk full of traps, maybe it's monster you haven't yet encountered. Adapting on the fly to what's thrown at you as if it was a real Dungeons and Dragons game being run by a Dungeon Master would be so satisfying IMO.

I get that the game needs to be fully focused on getting the basic game down though

[thick egret]

oh yeah no doubt, they will probably have that in the future when more monsters are made

then they can have different variants

and etc

[solid venture]

[warped ivy]

they have interest in doing so, but have stated its very difficult to do correctly, and if they eventually did, would be much later down the line

[wicked summit]

Can you see your own suggestions?

[desert remnant]

yes

[misty chasm]

what do people mean by 'forest map'?

[untold kernel]

is forest goin to be floor 1 or do we know yet?

[quartz bear]

Forest seems to be outside of the dungeon, in a sort of forest ruins environment.

Just based on its concept art and how the devs described it.

[untold kernel]

sounds sick. Hope they add alternating paths

You have a link to the art by any chance? no biggie if not

[quartz bear]

Its on the front page of IRONMACE.com

[untold kernel]

sick, thank you

[astral seal]

It is also supposed to have more players, I have heard different numbers, someone was saying floor 1 = 33 , floor 2 = 16 floor 3 = 9 in the real game which kind of makes floor 2 the odd man out since it doesn't have a number of players that is divisible by 3.

[untold kernel]

I wonder if it will keep the same lobby? Like you're on floor 3 with the same people from the previous

Or if it will combine servers

[astral seal]

Supposedly combining servers so that you have full numbers on each level

[desert remnant]

yeah, they would have kept lobbies if it worked, but its clearly not working

too few people decide to go down

[astral seal]

Although I wonder how rare/difficult that will make trips to floor 3 since you are going to have only a handful of survivors

And most people are full on loot after going through just level 2, not counting starting on level 1

[desert remnant]

well, if the lobby is full, id say the same chance as it is now.

maybe a little less.

if noone goes to 3, noone gets the good loot, which amps its price

[astral seal]

I'm saying it could be lower, a lot of groups I was in went to floor 3 because we knew we would be the only ones there and it would be a loot pinata essentially

[desert remnant]

the higher the price, the more likely most consider that 'full on loot' to be garbage tier loot anyways

especially when you can survive b3 with base gear, solo half the time

not when there are others, for sure

[astral seal]

Yeah well that's what I'm saying, when you know there are going to be 9 going there and there is survivorship bias where the people going down were going to be the "strongest" from their lobby and you already have collected loot, it's a much much bigger risk than it was going down in the last play test

[untold kernel]

surely they will add bags, or maybe drop points where you can send loot down during the game? Like a 2x2 of items that can be upgraded

[desert remnant]

once the devs get to balancing the game more, closer to release, it will matter more

right now its just mechanics.

i imagine the less that go down, the higher the loot value will be tweaked, and the lower the rest will be tweaked.

giving large incentive to go down

[astral seal]

Agreed, and I have some faith in this team given their decision making and statements so far. It's just a challenge that I see being ahead of them

[desert remnant]

i dont know if its that big of a challenge because of that. its mostly tweaking

lots of people wont go down regardless, and thats fine. so many dont seem to like the risk involved. i love it

my biggest complaint is that the circle often just killed me there.

[astral seal]

I kinda wish there was a separate stash that would be limited to holding grey-white gear. So players can build up a stash of base gear sets for going in while still having a limitation on how many "great" sets someone can have at a time. That way white gear doesn't become completely useless after you have essentially extracted a few times / if you are doing lesser geared runs you are forced to spend extra gold on buying stuff from merchant that you have a high chance of replacing during the run.

[desert remnant]

i imagine the devs will add things that extend the stash later anyways.

like moneypouches. things to hold treasure, things to group potions, ect

[astral seal]

Maybe, I know a lot of people think that but I don't know if they have made any comments on it. There is value to having a limited stash, I just think that there shouldn't be quite the same limitations on having "bad" gear vs having a huge stash full of great gear

[desert remnant]

they've spoken about it before in that they are looking at things, but thats about it

sucks that its hard to move gear between characters though. i dont understand that choice

[astral seal]

I honestly didn't find it that hard as long as whatever character you want to give stuff to has extracted once. Just extract once, join traders guild, give gear to friend, friend gives to your other character

[desert remnant]

yeah, but you cant do that with low level gear at all, or potions

well, not without it costing more than they are worth

[astral seal]

I mean you kind of can? You just fill up the trade window? It isn't 15gp per item, just 15gp for the whole transaction

You just have to transfer a decent amount of stuff at once, not an item at a time

[desert remnant]

do you need to actually trade something?

[astral seal]

no

But you do need gold to pay the transfer fee, so technically need to extract once with at least 40gp worth of stuff to start transferring to a character.

[desert remnant]

yeah, thats kind of the problem lol

the whole reason id transfer items is so that the new character doesnt have to go on greys lol

[astral seal]

It isn't a problem if you have enough money/items. You just make sure you transfer gold to the character on the first transfer. Going off memory you can trade like 1 gear set + some gold/consumables per trade window.

[wild igloo]

has anyone attempted to explain why the game is balanced as it is?

[desert remnant]

balanced how? the devs arnt attempting to balance the game much till release

[wild igloo]

that is what im asking, how is the game balanced, has anyone attempted to explain that?

[desert remnant]

the game isnt balanced, was my point

[rain saddle]

How is the game unbalanced

Y’all are on crack

[wild igloo]

im like a pug so chill

[quartz bear]

Yeah, because they played wizard.

[wild igloo]

people are inflamed or something

what are you on about?

[desert remnant]

how exactly is the game balanced atm? wizards are useless at the start, and scale to by far the best in the game. rogues can one shot with much less investment than their target. clerics boost clear speed to stupid amounts, while also being amazing in 3s.

its not in a bad state for sure, but i wouldnt call things balanced right now

[wild igloo]

so everyone is op isnt that balanced?

im trying to find someone who is attempting to explain the game in terms of what is actually balanced right now

[desert remnant]

everyone op doesnt mean balance

[rain saddle]

You are just wrong and don’t know what you are talking about. Wizards are good at the start and don’t scale much because they rely on spells not good gear

[desert remnant]

but everyone isnt op

wizards scale like crazy, you clearly havent seen full geared wizards.

[rain saddle]

They don’t

[wild igloo]

I have seen a fully geared wizard in action and it is stupid.

[desert remnant]

they dont scale with armour, books give great damage bonuses aty high rarity, will gives cast speed and great damage

[rain saddle]

Wizards just take skill

The pro wizards go naked for speed

[desert remnant]

they take skill and scale like crazy

[rain saddle]

They don’t need any weapon or armor so no

[desert remnant]

naked > base gear. they scale better with secondaries than any other class in the game

[wild igloo]

I go naked as rogue too. But a fully geard wizard is way faster than anything in the game.

so we are talking about wizards, are wizards op?

the speed and damage is light years beyond anything ive seen

[desert remnant]

as i said before, wizards are weak early, very very strong later.

[wild igloo]

yeah is that balanced or what

[desert remnant]

not at all.

[wild igloo]

okey

[desert remnant]

the devs are not balancing the game till EA or release

[wild igloo]

i love this game, its a very interesting game, strategic game too.

yeah ok I hear you

I think they are working more on melee mechanics than balance per se

so nobody thinks the game is balanced

[rain saddle]

Why are you talking about balance but only talk about wizards

[wild igloo]

haha what is one supposed to talk about then?

[desert remnant]

im not bothering with you anymore. you're clearly not interested in actually having a conversation, and im sick of having to attempt to clarify literally everything

[rain saddle]

How the different classes interact with each other?

[wild igloo]

that is an interesting subject, what would be the most obvious interaction to talk about?

cleric fighter?

maybe ill go into game discussion, sorry wrong channel.

[rain saddle]

Usually when talking about balance in games you would talk about how the different classes interact and which ones are stronger and which ones are weaker

[wild igloo]

like which class takes which class?

[rain saddle]

Like which class is the strongest and which class is the weakest

And you want a game where the winner of the fight is not dependent on the class but the players skills

[wild igloo]

lets go to game discussion

[quartz bear]

You are so right and so wrong. Wizards are good at the start yes, but with better gear and more perks they slap hard and agility wizards are gods.

[runic warren]

Wizard is cracked right now rofl

[quartz bear]

A wizard with starting equipment can quick cast two fireballs one after the other. But a wizard with epic tier gear can start casting their third fireball once the low tier wizard hits them with their first fireball.

[runic warren]

You don't even need to cast two fireballs pretty much ever. One Fireball and one Zap is a kill on every class apart from maybe Barb

[rain saddle]

Yeah the wizard is currently the best class, but the game is not unbalanced. There always have to be a best class and rn that’s wizard but they aren’t way better than other classes

[quartz bear]

Maybe in a 1v1 situation but come on dude "Pretty much ever" not even the best of the best consistently hit 3 people with two fireballs.

[runic warren]

Uhh, no. Not even close. Wizards are also discount Rogues and discount Rangers on top of having powerful spells.

[rain saddle]

Prob just because of the 20% faster perk not the gear

[quartz bear]

No, its because of both...

[runic warren]

I'm just talking about the damage required. I know you're probably not gonna have 100% accuracy here, but I'm just saying that even a starter Wizard is cracked, especially with Fire Mastery

[astral seal]

This proves someone has no idea what they are talking about. Wizards scale the hardest with gear because they can double dip on +flat magic and +flat physical damage since they are a threat at range and up close with ignite+dagger. You can turn a 11dmg magic missle into 66 damage with only flat damage bonuses and even higher with stat adding on to it. Your dagger damage with ignite gets the flat magic damage bonus and flat phys damage (which items can have both).

Anyone that has played this game with any solid amount of time while evaluating gear understands how broken +flat damage enchantments were in the last play test.

[quartz bear]

Yes I agreed, im really only pushing back on the prospect that a heavily geared wizard isnt far more cracked.

[quartz bear]

Someone gets it.

[runic warren]

Wizards suffer from very low Strength at the start. This means that +STR gear is a LOT stronger on them. A Fighter with +10 All Att would only deal 10% more Physical Damage, but a Wizard with +10 All Att would do 30% more Physical Damage.

Combine that with spells and the Rondel/Crystal Ball/Crossbow setup and you're a nightmare

[quartz bear]

This logic doesnt make any sense at all. Someone with already high strength benefits way more from strength buffing items. Wizards with higher strength is nice but not something you should solely be focusing on.

[runic warren]

I will say I don't like Magic Missile because it does have a lot of disadvantages, even with the pretty high damage. Granted, if I had something like +10 Magic Damage I'd probably change my tune lol

[quartz bear]

Also using the percentiles like that is a bit deceiving considering that they would scale logarithmically not as flat percentage increases.

[runic warren]

It makes a lot of sense. Having less than 15 in any stat results in some pretty nasty debuffs. STR normally just increases Physical Damage by 1%, but each point less than 15 reduces your physical damage by 3%.

[runic warren]

Well, I normally focused on a shank wizard setup, so Strength was a welcome addition lol, both for the damage increase and the extra health for tanking hits (which was basically never necessary, but useful nonetheless).

[quartz bear]

This is pretty circumstantial as I wouldn't really play the wizard as a frontliner as much as I would play it ranged. I would only really care about str buffs if it was + all attributes.

I found that agility was the best stat for wizards. Getting behind people with invisibilty+haste or just outrunning them to turn around and magic missile them or slow them was the best.

[runic warren]

+All Att is absolutely insane on Wizard, as it minimizes his debuffs (or gets rid of them entirely) while making his buffs absolutely insane

[quartz bear]

Ignite strength is a really good strat for wizard yes, but agility has more versatility.

[quartz bear]

Out of all classes I would say that wizards are the ones that make use of the most of their stats haha.

[runic warren]

Yeah, the focus on STR is mostly for starting out. +Physical Power and +All Att proved to be incredibly broken

[astral seal]

You guys are missing the forest for the trees, yeah + attributes are nice on wizard but they are nothing compared to flat damage bonuses which imo either need to be capped or removed entirely as an enchantment. On 1 or 2 items it isn't an issue but it absolutely broken when you have a full set/near full set of that gear (which people had during the play test).

[tender cave]

Will There be a second Testphase? Soon or near the Future?

[astral seal]

And that holds true for literally every class in the game

[quartz bear]

Funny thought. Increasing your will would help mitigate any potential self harm chain lightning, fireball, or bending missiles would do to yourself.

[quartz bear]

Feb 6th most likely. And it would be the fourth not second.

[astral seal]

flat damage > +all attributes > anything else. And imo they need to make it so that you can get items that are +1 stat which has higher numbers than the +all attribute max, i.e if you can get +3 to all attributes on an item you should be able to get +5 will or +5str etc

[quartz bear]

Idk man I actually want people to feel powerful with really good gear, It isnt easy to get or keep unless you are some of the best players in the world.

[astral seal]

You can make people feel powerful without just making them oneshot

[quartz bear]

Its meant to be an arms race against the fighters that can get to a 90% damage reduction with buffs and armor.

[astral seal]

How are fighters getting 90% damage reduction to magic?

[runic warren]

All Att is so good on a Wizard, though. Because you are:

-> Increasing Physical Damage (Rondel/Crossbow)
-> Increasing movement speed (great with Haste)
-> Increasing Magic Damage and Casting Speed
-> Increasing Physical Interaction Speed
-> Increasing Spell Capacity/Memory

[runic warren]

It is possible to get a 90% physical damage reduction. Magic is actually probably easier to resist on a Barb

[quartz bear]

I didnt specify what reduction its for, im sure if they get the right gear they can decrease magic damage significantly, but the set up ive seen was for physical damage reduction only.

[astral seal]

I would like to see that, I played mainly cleric and I stopped wearing heavy because heavy armor didn't seem worth the speed tradeoff. I would love to see screenshots of even the 90% reduction because that sounds well well beyond anything I saw. Plus, guess what it still doesn't even matter because those +flat damage bonuses I was talking about come in a +true damage form so resists don't matter LOL

[quartz bear]

I donIm confused now, do you want people with good gear or not?

[runic warren]

Metal helmets and armor was good, and metal gloves/boots were trash IMO

[quartz bear]

The time I saw the 90% damage reduction was in a livestream in this discord from my teamate and I didn't screenshot it. But I know for 100% fact that orlanthiTTV has footage of them with such gear.

[unkempt aspen]

me and my friend argued about this and we both want an answer :do you lean to more pvp style like adding a ranked system with player matchmaking and hidden mmr and like focusing on the pvp side or you are leaning towards adding more pve like more dungons and more lvls more spells charcters and more floors and the pvp side is just there to make game more challenging ?

[runic warren]

MMR is bad. I will not elaborate

[astral seal]

I want people to play with good gear, I just think that good gear shouldn't solely come via increasing damage to the point of 1 shotting people. I am for % damage increases but flat damage is broken and exploitable on certain abilities (i.e low base damage but fast attack i.e magic missile where you can get a 600% increase over the base damage)

[unkempt aspen]

that what i sayed

[runic warren]

Just bring up Hunt: Showdown and ask that community how well MMR worked

[astral seal]

@runic warren Agreed, I am normally for MMR based matchmaking but this game would be horrible for it

[quartz bear]

At the moment they are adding to both aspects. Its already confirmed we are getting more classes, items, weapons AND monsters, maps, and traps.

[runic warren]

I agree on % based and not +damage based, for sure

[unkempt aspen]

yes is the pvp just there or there main focus is the pvp

[runic warren]

I'd say it's sort of in the same vein as Hunt: Showdown

[quartz bear]

You just need to get to an armor level or skill level to counter any one shot tactics. Most weapons that one shot are slow as hell anyways. Based on what you have said, maybe try not throwing your best armors away in favor of speed and then complain that you get hit and die.

[unkempt aspen]

my friend kept saying they need to focus on the pvp side or game wont be fun i was like baby it is dungone crawler it is a pve game if u remove pvp game will still be fun like very fun why focus on the pvp side

[runic warren]

Well, that's the thing. There's no -Damage reduction buffs, but there are +Damage increase buffs

I do wonder if Perseverance can actually counter true damage rofl

[quartz bear]

Tell them that you are both right, PVP is getting loads of updates and so is PVE

[astral seal]

@quartz bear You keep talking about weapons, when the biggest abusers are magic users (and hint, wizards and clerics can allow others to take advantage of +flat magic dmg which will bypass that heavy armor you keep talking about and I still want to see a screenshot of someone with 90% resistances because that is well beyond what I know is possible from my personal experience but I will admit I could be wrong on that)

[quartz bear]

Also the game is more PVP focused than PVE honestly.

[unkempt aspen]

all the devs did is add a server and the ability to dameg other ppl (not making ut sound easy) if they didnt the game will still be a fun game to play alone or with 3 people with out the pvp of other people in a server

[quartz bear]

I have been talking about armor and weapons. Not just one. I mostly go back to weapons because I know its the only thing you have truly had an issue with, you ahve said multiple times you dont want items to scale to one-shot and believe it or not but the weapons themselves contribute the most to damage. (Unless you play cleric with buffs like me that is tee hee)

[empty thicket]

Hey, a new guy on server here, was literally popping in to ask about difference of PvP and PvE levels because the game looks really interesting honestly (sadly missed last beta due to family tasks), but at same time I am honestly worried if the game has lot of emphasis on PvP. Like, is one expected to just murder everyone not in their party or did people form alliances mid-run or stuff like that?

[quartz bear]

Oh for context, the guy with 90% was 55% and the livestreamed footage was after a shrine of protection.

[runic warren]

For me, it was fairly rare (although I tend to be pretty bloodthirty, even as a solo rofl) but it did happen

[quartz bear]

Spam casting protection or taking protection pots makes it almost impossible to one-shot you btw.

[astral seal]

It isn't the weapons, you get +flat damage from every item slot. Honestly if you have +50 damage (or +100 if double dipping) from your gear you can be using any weapon and mowing down most people.

Protection is only physical

[quartz bear]

I said weapon contributes the most. Not that it trumps every single equipped item all together.

[runic warren]

Wouldn't +50 be unreasonably difficult to get?

[quartz bear]

They are only talking about the highest end of item buffs.

They want it nerfed.

[astral seal]

+50 might be tough especially with a small population of players but the thing is you don't need purples/oranges to get 90% of the value from the item, you can have greens with just that 1 enchant and you are money.

[empty thicket]

Thanks. What little I've seen this reminds me a lot of Escape from Tarkov, and I remember few rare times there where people met, waved at one another, traded some items and each went the other way instead of risking losing their gear in a shoot-out.
Mostly just curious for sheer fact that, well, I kind of hate PvP games with loss involved because I am at best mediocre PvP player...

[astral seal]

It is easy to find green versions of those items with the player base we had, I was running with people that had multiple sets of that gear last play test

[quartz bear]

Yeah full green were cheap and almost as good as full blues and sometimes even purples.

[astral seal]

Because the value of a top tier enchant on a green is better than a purple/orange with bad enchants in most cases (excluding like weapons)

I understand why the closed alpha testers probably didn't spot how broken the +flat dmg enchants were because if you have a small population you probably aren't getting enough of the items into the economy to allow for people to create the specifically broken gear sets (you also need to have people that would theory craft it to begin with)

[quartz bear]

The bonuses really did make a difference, I WANT THAT.

Its not like the reason I dont want the nerf is because I dont see that its powerful. I dont want it nerfed because I want it to feel powerful.

Someone that grinded out epics that all grant bonus to true damage should 100% one shot all clerics that just bought white/grey plate armor for 60G in the merchant tab. This is coming from a CLERIC>

To counter bonus to true damage, grind out strength items, its an arms race. Now RUN.

Some builds just counter others. Why would I want to mitigate it so the hardcore grinders gain little to no bonuses to fighting starter equipment scrubs?

If you hate being one-shot by everyone. Instead of complaining, just become the guy that one-shots everyone. Come on.

[astral seal]

@quartz bear So my main point is this, you can still have bonuses that feel very impactful. But you don't need to have those bonuses that are specifically broken for certain class / weapon combinations. For example, we have been discussing how strong magic missile becomes based on the flat damage. Compare that to fireball. Fireball goes from 30 damage --> 80 damage on direct hit (20 --> 70 on splash), which is 3x the damage on a direct + splash / 3.5x on just splash. But it is literally 6x the damage on magic missile.

The same comparison holds true on melee weapons. It will turn 2hders from being a good size damage number to a big number, but it will turn a small number into an insane number for fast 1hded weapons.

So the smaller the base damage of the attack normally --> bigger the impact of the bonus which generally coincides with ease of landing the ability / weapon and the speed at which it can be used.

[quartz bear]

Damn.....you know that actually makes a hell of a lot of sense and I see now why you kept mentioning "But that damage reduction doesnt work against magic." We already know mages are cracked, but I think the main issue lies in how the wizard interacted with the game rather than how items interact with the wizard.

Reducing the power scaling of wizard or just nerfing their base damage should help with this issue.

[wispy parcel]

true damage is just a bad mechanic in general with this kind of game. It just invalidates other player's build choices so there is no actual interaction going on

[astral seal]

I think the issue is with the items it's just that wizards are the biggest exploiters of the flaw, rogues being 2nd (probably tied with a cracked cleric) since both can double dip but rogue can do it a lot safer

but rogue doesn't get quite the same double dipping unless buffed by a wizard/cleric

[quartz bear]

If one class is the one that is abusing damage bonuses to instant kill any competition than maybe that class is the issue and not the items.

[astral seal]

I think that isn't the case because a wizard without gear is not comparable at all to one with top end gear, while other classes don't have nearly the gap imo

[quartz bear]

It doesnt invalidate strength builds. And technically armor builds invalidate all other builds except for true damage ones so your point is invalidated.

[wispy parcel]

armor builds invalidate themselves by becoming slower

[quartz bear]

Yes, wizard is way stronger with more gear. So slow the scaling that gear has on magic damage.

[astral seal]

I feel like you haven't looked at the numbers enough Holy, defensive stats lose the arms race so hard that it isn't close, especially because there are true damage variants like I stated and because as I commented earlier, the single stat items have the same cap as the +all attributes, you can't really get enough str to combat the amount of damage increases in the game.

[quartz bear]

Thats just a give and take. You can still be fast enough with buffs or other item bonuses to not have to worry about being to slow to kite or run away.

[astral seal]

There are diminishing returns on hps from Str, there are no diminishing returns on +flat damage bonuses

[quartz bear]

Also I would rather be able to take 5 shots to the head and be slow than 1 shot to the head and be zooming.

[wispy parcel]

nah you would just be slowed even more by longbow shots and just die anyways because you failed to use terrain

[quartz bear]

Ya you might be right about the speed decreasing debuffs. I may be a bit biased because I mostly played heavy plate cleric and stomped rangers that pelted me with a dozen arrows but I still had half health. Whenever I took off armor or was in starting gear I felt very weak and I am almost certaintly was because I took WAY more damage without armor. With my playstyle of rushing enemies and bonking them I think the benefits of wearing heavy armor is more psychological and feeling based than cold hard facts and numbers.

[astral seal]

The thing about the last play test is that there wasn't much data you were able to really to individually collect on what happened in a round. It could be difficult to know how geared someone was that you killed/died (mainly because if you survived and you had sole access to their body you likely just did a quick glance while looting rather than really evaluating and if you died you might not have always checked every single item someone had equipped via observer mode / they could have died before your team fully died). You also don't know exactly where you got hit / how much damage each hit did. A lot of it was just based on feel. Just like with wizards, there is a huge difference in the damage output of a default gear Ranger and one that was fully geared properly.

This is why I think a lot of balance discussions at this point are kind of meaningless because there were just generally so many variables involved in any specific fight (i.e difference in skill / game knowledge / gear / positional advantage / starting resources ). I think all that can really be pointed out is things that were obviously way too strong or way too weak to the point of being big outliers.

After running in a group of 3 for an extended period of time (our comp was normally either Wizard or Ranger + Cleric (me) + Rogue) I found it far more useful to go with lighter armor on my cleric but a big shield so that I could keep up with my faster allies to keep spells on them and rely on blocking with my shield since you can fully mitigate a hit with your shield/dodging compared to partial mitigation with armor.

[quartz bear]

The devs themselves straight up said "Game doesnt need balancing until its released"

[astral seal]

Yeah and I think my comments support that. Nothing I have said have anything to do with balancing specific classes. It was just identifying something that was completely broken as far as itemization that was fairly agnostic of class although some were bigger abusers than others. You will never see me making a comment saying a specific class is op/needs nerfs at this point.

[quartz bear]

Whenever I had leather or cloth items that granted me better bonuses than my plate armor I swapped them out and then equipped my best agility increasing items such as rings and pendants. Going the zooming build was something I only did when I knew I would be able to get fast enough that getting hit wasnt as likely.

[quartz bear]

Saying items need a big nerf but mostly focusing on how wizards abused it is a part of the voice that wants wizards nerfed whether you like that or not.

[astral seal]

No because I think there should be a complete removal of flat damage bonuses as an enchantment. Other classes can be very big abusers of it as well it is just very easy to point it out with wizard because it's very easy to demonstrate the impact with numbers people can see. The damage/attack speed of specific weapons is a lot more abstract to people than explaining the impact on magic missile. In fact I think other classes can be better abusers in a group setting (i.e Rangers + cleric/wizard using triple shot or the spread shot can do insanely silly amounts of damage)

The spread shot can literally do like over 1000 damage with all 5 arrows damage combined with the right item set/enchants lol

[quartz bear]

idk....I dont like the idea of removing damage bonuses at all. But maybe you have a point. I dont think im the one to have the strongest opinion about logistics and statistics. Im more talking from a gameplay perspective and really enjoying getting damage bonuses and trying to counter other peoples damage builds.

When I heard about how true damage bonuses worked I was actually very happy to see it in the game, as it meant people could counter my heavy armor and I had a way to counter other clerics and fighters heavy armor. But I can see why from a balancing perspective this might not be a good feature and thus some took the news negatively.

[astral seal]

It wasn't just the "news", it was actually playing with it and seeing it in action. You seem to see it as an arms race but it really isn't because the defensive side of the equation isn't anywhere close to comparable. But I've discussed this for long enough and I feel pretty confident the Dev team will do something because it is an issue that has been brought up in numerous places with a lot of support behind it. I didn't even touch on the super rare possibility which makes it even dumber as I saw a screenshot of an item that had +15 total damage increase (3 different +5 enchants but I kinda ignored that because I feel like those items will likely be very rare but they just make my argument more valid). Anyway good night and take care.

[quartz bear]

G'night and for sure the devs will balance anything they see is broken like the current interaction with the best armor you can get and the best damage you can get being drastically different.

[twilit sparrow]

The tl;dr is that in order to have different abilities work with things like flat damage, we need to have abilities have a sort of Added Damage Effectiveness % that tweaks all sources except for True Damage

Flat damage is fine as an idea, it's just that for example a shot with a crossbow should benefit more from it than the longbow shotgun or triple shot

[muted lark]

Why would a 40 dmg slow firing weapon benefit from 15 dmg more then a survival Bow with triple shot at even 20 dmg the bow would benefit from 15 flat way harder

[twilit sparrow]

You don't know how to read, please try again

[muted lark]

Solid thanks for the slap in the face

[brisk badge]

When about is the next playtest gonna be

[vital quarry]

Does the game use normal colliders/hitboxes for weapon hit detection? Or is it using a raycast based system similar to Mordhau/Chivalry? The precision of the hitboxes made me think it might be the latter

[raven beacon]

6th - 13th of feb

[brisk badge]

Oh

[junior island]

Hello, when is the next playtest?

[brisk badge]

brother the answer is literally the last message

[junior island]

omg my bad...

[brisk badge]

lmao

[zinc spoke]

What’s stopping you guys from doing a paid closed beta? I’d support it, games fun as is.

[wild igloo]

something like it is coming Q2 2023

[zinc spoke]

Interesting fine then haha

[true phoenix]

FUN AS IT IS? It

It's wildly addicting

[wraith veldt]

I believe it's slated for Q4 this year unless that changed recently?

so any date between October 1 and December 31, 2023 if things don't change

[wraith veldt]

Here is what the dev's said in their last Q&A
: Is there a way to support the game financially?
A: We are looking into things like Kickstarter and Early Access

[prime venture]

early access would be way better so that more people can reach out
kickstarter i know as platform but i dont know how to use it 🤔

[honest cargo]

what does armor actually do? like how do armor points work? what number of armor points gives you what percent damage reduction?

[prime venture]

wasnt the EA planned in Q2 and the full release in Q4?
btw yea, it's fair and i agree

but what i meant was more, id like to support as early access model instead of kickstarter
kickstarter is probably good still, cause it should be way better than ea in term of % (not sure)

but hopefully they dont do some exclusive stuff for who support in kickstarter only
and excluding the people that supported only in early access

id support even if there wouldnt be "extra" stuff
usually companies do that to compensate with pre orders 🤔

[mortal jackal]

@burnt badger Can we pay like $50 to keep playing this amazing game? Me and my friends are going through withdrawal and need more Dark and Darker!

[frosty sandal]

Do the Devs plan to put the game into a beta much like Escape from Tarkov?

[rain saddle]

The game will have a early access period likely starting around Q2 of this year

[frosty sandal]

So it is safe to assume that it will be some time before the game reaches the point that the game will be played year round with or without a mandatory reset and update?

[rain saddle]

My mandatory reset do you mean a wipe?

[frosty sandal]

Yes my apologies that is a better way of putting it.

[rain saddle]

The game will have regular wipes when it is done as well, like other extraction games

[frosty sandal]

Thank you vary much for answering my question I look forward to Dark and Darkers future and future game play.

[polar yoke]

I would rather the implement more gear death than periodic wipes tbh

trash rate on death, durability etc

[polar yoke]

https://darkanddarker.wiki.spellsandguns.com/Stats is the closest info I can find

[rain saddle]

Wipes are kinda needed for getting new players into the game

[polar yoke]

I think that's a really limited method of getting new players into the game

[rain saddle]

People don’t want to play a game where they can’t even get into it because everyone else already has great gear

[honest saffron]

Will people who don't currently have the game downloaded be able to play it during the February Steam event?
I'm super keen to try it

[rain saddle]

Yep

[honest saffron]

Hyped!!!

[past yew]

how do i become a play tester

[rain saddle]

You are a play tester

[past yew]

oh, does that mean i can play it then?

[rain saddle]

Yes! In February 🙂

[past yew]

ok thank you

[prime venture]

i agree
hopefully they dont wipe even char levels at least with the perks as well
cause that would be just exaggerated

[polar yoke]

I would like them to at least experiment with gear death

[prime venture]

a new player might even find green or higher rarity items from a body not looted

i think wiping it's not a guarantee
new players might even buy the game at mid wipe and not even knowing how it works the game
and still having the issue in finding people with all the stuff farmed, cause they farmed in guiness world record in less than one week

wipes dont really solve the issue and its not even related to "new players" but also returning players as well that had the game already

[hidden sparrow]

is the game gonna cost money

[sleek lantern]

yes

[hidden sparrow]

how much

[sleek lantern]

not been announced yet

[hidden sparrow]

alr

[prime venture]

getting rid off from such battle royalish mechanic as wipe i think it would be better for the game
at least it would become way more unique than it is already than other generic tarkov based games

[sleek lantern]

My personal guesstimate would be the equivalent of 20-30 euros (if it goes early access in the current state).

[prime venture]

it will go in early access in an improved state probably thanks to the playtests.
early access planned to be in Q2 it seems like

[sleek lantern]

The testing is still just in alpha stage and some of the systems being tested is the experience gain rate/leveling curve/character progression and the effectiveness/impact of each perk.
So wipe every test makes sense.

[sleek lantern]

So I've heard as well but it was not in the original release plan.
Until they make an official announcement we can't be sure but I strongly suspect and hope that the Q2 early access will indeed happen.

[prime venture]

yea im fine with that
but i meant more when the game will be fully released in Q4
it will still have wipes
and i'm not a fan of such thing in games usually, but it's fine i might adapt 🤔

[sleek lantern]

Well I feel the same way but we'll see, the devs are not yet 100% decided on a wipe cycle after full release but it seems more likely than not.
I think wipes will be better for the shaping the proper player mindset though, so that you have an incentive to hunt for and stack loot but at the same time you don't have debilitating gear fear and are not afraid to use your high value gear.

[peak hound]

thats true

hopefully well get some small cosmetic for each season we partake in

[prime venture]

id prefer new updates, as in new maps, enemies, weapons when wipes drop
and cosmetics maybe, but hopefully no fomo stuff and that also everyone can get them by playing

the adventure points system was cool

could give a sense of progress, id see it as you can progress maintaining certain cosmetics even after wipes
like the blue torch ect

at least those

[sleek lantern]

that would be nice

[sleek lantern]

Yeah, that would be awesome.

[pine salmon]

If there is potentially going to be different races, will there be racial passives?

[rain saddle]

From the dev QnA: "We are still experimenting but yes. We want to include more customization. "

[still mural]

Do we have an exact date on the new playtest yet? Also were there plans to remodel the trading menus? I think the worst part of the game was the trading combined with the lack of inventory space

[trim gust]

The date has already been posted as Feb 6th-13th.

[still mural]

ty

[sleek mulch]

Do we know what the next alpha test-version is going to include (relative to the previous #3) ?!

[desert remnant]

thats a question that would be answered in the FAQ, if it had an answer

[low flower]

Do blue pots receive any form of DR?

[final meadow]

how do i get in on this?

[desert remnant]

read the FAQ

[final meadow]

well faq me sideways

[upbeat rampart]

Can you break open locked chests?

[frosty sandal]

If you play barb and/or have a two handed weapon and the chest is not brass, iron, or the gold ones yes you can

[cobalt ferry]

next alpha playtest will be last or there will be more?

[bright knot]

<@&988703997378584596> Is it possible for me to delete some of my own suggestions from d-and-d-suggestions?

[dawn plaza]

That's not possible. Which one you would like to delete?

[bright knot]

Can I dm you a list?

[dawn plaza]

Sure

[prime shard]

Just a geniune question, how can someone link to a discord channel post on the discord app?

[halcyon hearth]

Do you mean like this? #q-and-a message

Press down on the message you want to copy and there should be an option called "copy message link" if that's what you mean :)

[wind tundra]

when the next playtest starts how do i play. i dont see an option do download it anywhere only add to wishlist

[prime shard]

Yes like that but the problem is I am on a mobile phone using the discord app..

[prime shard]

I think the next playtest is on february

[halcyon hearth]

Yes, if you press down on the message a menu should appear with that option

[burnt badger]

when they release the playtest it will give you the download option

[wind tundra]

ah okay

ty

[burnt badger]

np

[prime shard]

I can only copy text not the link.. are you doing that on the app itself?

[halcyon hearth]

Yes

[steady sky]

I would assume at some point

[wraith veldt]

They usually release the patch notes/updates/changes closer to the next play test

[torn saffron]

I didn't use smash until the last day of playtest 3 and it was by far and away the most fun I had with my buddies.

[rain saddle]

Is it possible to buy a molotov or lantern in the shop?

[opaque zodiac]

No

[vestal anchor]

Pretty sure I'm caught up on all the Dev Q&A's, but wanted to double check on something...Has anyone heard about hotkeys for spells? Or possible QoL improvements for spell selection in the radial UI?

[digital holly]

The doctor said if I can't play Dark and Darker in 24 hours, I'll be dead... Can you save me?

[lusty cloud]

we all gotta go someday

see ya bro

[digital holly]

Okay, I'll go first.

[opaque zodiac]

No, didn’t sound like they were doing that but unclear

[upbeat rampart]

Are Guilds already talked about being added?

[opaque zodiac]

Not yet

[umbral wing]

Any idea if we will get data from playtest 3 like we did 2? I really loved the breakdowns

[timber mist]

Yes, hopefully sometime this week 🙂

[grim scarab]

When they say they want as many maps as possible does that mean that they will allow modders to make custom maps at some point?

Or will there be a map contest perhaps???

[opaque zodiac]

Thank you, that’s very appreciated

[shut scaffold]

Mr Devs, The next Playtest will take place during Next Fest will it marrior the dates and start time?

[vague mirage]

Can clerics mica Vista whatever hurt players?

Judgement

[severe folio]

I wish to see a few things this playtest. Friend list, being able to purchase more than 1 item at a trader. Do you think we can see that this playtest?

[thick egret]

Not sure about the friend list but for sure selling and buying more than 1 item, a developer said he wanted to add it really badly

[formal minnow]

is the playtest recap coming anytime soon?

[quartz bear]

Yes they have said guilds are a must have.

[quartz bear]

Idk where you got this information. It is false. SDF said guilds are something they will for sure implement.

[quartz bear]

Yes judgment is a damaging skill clerics can pick up. For this playtest it was nerfed to only 30 magical damage though.

[vague mirage]

It does more damage to undead too?

I wasn't aware of it damaging players so I used it to clear groups of undead

[gritty sluice]

@IRONMACE Dev
Is there a plan to allow an investment to be made with your company.
Shares/etc. I have a very strong feeling regarding this game if this gets at least 2 more explosions like it had on AlphaTest #3.
50k players is good but this has so much more potential.
Dont rush, listen to community, be a humble Dev and you have a 200% success guaranteed with this.

[grim furnace]

They already said that they wanted to keep ironmace like it is, and dont plan to ask for investors @gritty sluice

[gritty sluice]

Pitty, but a good decision probably. Fear of $$$ driven development. I get ya.
Still I wish you all best of luck and cant wait for the next playtest 🙂

[tranquil forge]

Devs are Power BI enjoyers 😮

[grim furnace]

No its just that they dont need it atm. Its an error to think like that, spending 2 or 3M is really easy when you try to product something but having parts of ur company is way harder when you grow. Its just another type of investment, they know they can succeed by their own, so why try to have few millions to supply when you can have way more later?

[gritty sluice]

i have huge hopes for this project. Since Dark Messiah of Might and Magic Multiplayer experience i did not have this feeling up untill the Alphatest #3 (my first/only so far touch on this title).
As i said i wish all the best wanted to support and if possible invest as i see huge potential as they do. Its good to hear that they are grounded ppl and want to do it their way. I just hope this does not mean only their way. But so far i've seen quick community responses and effort.

[pale rose]

when is the playtest 4 release?

[frosty sandal]

Feb 6-13th

[fading socket]

Hello all,

My Q would be: Are you guys planning any creator programs? Since it's done remarkably well during alpha playtests it would be a great way to advertise even further

[pale rose]

ty

[timber mist]

We currently have Troubadours!
If you meet the requirements, use the link to apply at the #📢community-announcements channel.
Thanks 🙂

[kind sapphire]

@timber mist You guys actively going through those apps still? I applied prior to the last playtest, been waiting to hear back.

[timber mist]

I sent you a DM 🙂

[gray bison]

@muted onyx Yay Power BI! But you guys really need to edit those default visuals. Throw some style in there. I recommend mixing your PBIX reports with Figma to have cleaner, prettier dashboards with a more digestible output.

But most importantly, you need to have consistent legends across multiple graphs. especially if they're on the same page. Example: Buy Count(Class), Sell Count(Class), Trade Count(Class) has the color Pink for Rogue, Barbarian, and Cleric. Should be the same color throughout if you have consistent graphs.

There are some other things that stood out as bad practice, but I figure you won't read this anyway. Just some tips from a data scientist 🙂

[high moat]

Can someone clarify what the "Class Game Stat 1" bar graph is?

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/989064933696237568/1061990013425946654/221216_04.png From this page.

[timber mist]

Actually we do read these.
Don't tag SDF though please!
Thanks for your feedback, I will pass it along 🙂

[gray bison]

Just tagged him because he posted the graphs. My bad.

[burnt badger]

Btw guys question about dark and darker dose it have SEA server? What r the server available during playtests

[keen mortar]

I’d like to see a lot of thoses stats balanced by the amount of played game by class. For example in the kill by class we can see that wizard has lower kill count than any other class, but this is most likely because wizard has the least game played too. It would be awesome to have thoses stats balanced in order to have the average kill per game per class. That would give some info on which class are the most powerfull to pve. That’s just an example but i think a lot of stats would provide more information if they took into account the number of game played by the class

[jaunty robin]

When is open new pretest

[jolly night]

Holly crap, I've never seen a developer drop so much data before to the players. G-damn.

Also huh how do I enter the testing? I really want to play.

[trail basin]

i hear the next phase will be at the steam next fest in Feb

[queen coral]

Last time you just needed to apply for the playtest on the steam page and it pretty much gave you access instantly, I assume next time (start around feb 6th) will be the same

[jolly night]

Thanks a bunch, I'll set a calendar to make sure I get it this time around. I don't want to miss this game!

[jaunty robin]

this game is top5 for me i will set a calendar right now

[rough dove]

In the Data charts: is there a high roller class %? curious if the mostly even normal lobby class disparity is still the same in high roller

[sand ferry]

I enjoied playing that game on the beta test so much i wanna take days off work for the new beta coming up. When is it going to happen so i can schedule a week off work?

[brave sparrow]

feb 6th

[zenith carbon]

So i gotta time getting sick with the beta perfect

[sand ferry]

Oh well im just planning a week paid off work ... lets go im so excited ...

[bright knot]

Have the devs said whether they will add a dodge mechanic?

[vague anvil]

They have movement speed stats (agility) that determine how fast a character is with overall movement. Adding a dodge ability would kind of make agility redundant. But maybe a dodge could be a special ability in the future?

[silent delta]

can ironmace just use like battle eye anti cheat to stop cheaters?

[brave sparrow]

i dont think they will, they've said they want to keep combat simple and don't want to get into mordheim-like complication in combat

[grand merlin]

In the data, does anyone know what hacktype1 2 3 etc are?

[boreal turret]

im pretty sure thats the different weapon swings like mouse one mouse 2 ect, but thats a complete guess

[grand merlin]

not sure it is as its in relation to people banned so i think its different types of hacks like esp, teleport etc

[boreal turret]

ahhh you are very smart thank you

[desert smelt]

For the Buy/Sell Counts in the recently released stats, is this referring to items bought from and sold to NPCs?

[still pewter]

when can we see a rise in the mongolian playerbase in the dark and darker community?

[tender crypt]

Get some friends in to play during the next playtest, word of mouth is a super strong driver.

[minor stone]

Why does the long sword require 2 hands?

[haughty locust]

because it is long

[gritty talon]

lack of muscle mass

[haughty locust]

sure

[minor stone]

A long sword irl is less than 5 pounds

[opaque zodiac]

He said they will eventually, but not anytime soon. “Not yet” is a valid answer, so don’t jump down my throat for no reason, thanks 👍🏻

[haughty locust]

i didnt ask

[desert smelt]

if you want a serious answer, it's probably for balancing purposes

so you can't benefit from dual wield with it, use a shield with it, etc.

[minor stone]

Still weird

Could maybe call it a bastard sword and make the arming sword a long sword

Or something along those lines

Especially considering the arming sword can be used by other classes other than the fighter

[desert smelt]

I'm sure they're going for each weapon having a certain niche, rather than them all being completely accurate

the falchion already serves as the "better one-handed sword for fighter"

[minor stone]

Which is also strange

[desert smelt]

and the zwei is the "slow two-handed sword"
so the longsword is probably the "medium two-handed sword with parry"

[minor stone]

Ug

[deft agate]

The Data shows the game is ready for early access no?

[prime venture]

no, it's just a recap of what happened during the playtest #3

[main rapids]

yes it is ready

[willow carbon]

The game is always ready, they clearly dont want to do it and they must have their own reasons

As much as it pains me

[analog patio]

Will the game be free when it fully comes out or paid for?

[floral otter]

when next playtest?

[red quarry]

most likely to be able to focus on developping the game while not having to maintain/police the players/servers in the meantime, that's smart but painful for us 😦

[cyan pivot]

For the game data that was released today, can someone confirm what “game count by class” and “totalplaycount” is?

[misty chasm]

do shields block spells?

[terse magnet]

having withdraws. can we get another alpha yet?

[neat bramble]

it does for magic missiles, not sure for others, but i think others as well
@analog patio it will have a price but the amount isnt decided yet
@floral otter Around Feb 6, official start time still to come

[deft agate]

I will be out of town for the play test, you guys running any makeup tests?

[scarlet summit]

when will there be another test code thingy

[zinc lily]

How can i start noe?

[warped ivy]

By waiting til feb 6th

[leaden plover]

will i keep my save from the last playtest?

[warped ivy]

nope @leaden plover

[leaden plover]

darn

[rapid holly]

no game ever does?

[leaden plover]

this is my first playtest game

[viral kiln]

Will Ironmace tell us what the changes are prior to the Feb 6 playtest (patch notes), or do we just have to play and find out? It's a silly but important question.

[obtuse dock]

Was there a release today of planned changes?

[opaque zodiac]

Usually an hour before or so

[thick egret]

they will tell you

but not everything but they will just keep it vague, i.e "new monsters" "new weapon" "new spells"

but they wont go into detail

[high moat]

The game seems clearly not ready for early access. Having to manage and dedicate resources to live play sets back time development significantly, and it nowhere near done. I'm optimistic about a Q4 release for early access, and please don't waver from the traditional one-time pay model. Heck, I'd lay out 20 or 30 dollar subscriptions over each year to play this game, but if it's a-la-carte microtransactions in a f2p model I can't imagine that being healthy.

Are we going to get more PVP relevant statistics in the future? That's the balancing I'm most curious about is the player interactions.
Also, did you hire or consider a contractor someone who specializes in data collection and presentation? A lot of the data graphs you dumped for us are kinda interesting but while there's some stand-out useful data, most of it is difficult to parse.

[trim trench]

Hey how do i sign up for the feb test?

[half sapphire]

Wait until February 6th then go to the steam page

[shut scaffold]

@high moat I thought this said Q2 for the early access?

[bright knot]

@timber mist I saw that sdf hates stamina systems, but does that mean there's no chance Ironmace will make their own new stamina system? And is it possible that we'll see a dodge mechanic?

[high moat]

Idk, hadn't seen that. I have only heard Q4.

[prisma marsh]

bro no need to tag dev's lol they read this constantly 😄

[polar yoke]

dodge is never coming

[hollow flame]

i read in last Q&A forum that early access is planned on Q4 2023

[silent jewel]

perty sure way heavier lol

[shut scaffold]

i; need to duble check i thought it was earlyA q2 and release q4 but I would not put monety on it

[hollow flame]

i would definitely pay for this game, i love it

[jovial needle]

Ill drop 1kusd if you let me play right now

[golden stream]

Have the ever tried knockback or attack disruption for two handed weapons? Might be useful for those slow swings

[bright knot]

Are there any weapons where you press for a weak attack and hold for a strong attack?

[hollow flame]

i dont think so...never happen to see one

[neat bramble]

as someone who went to medieval combat training for a few months, even the light stuff gets heavy really fast when you need to keep swinging it lol, especially true when wearing armor

[cosmic hatch]

I see a lot of youtubers still releasing content. Is it because they recorded a lot and publish now or do they have access to servers?

[hollow flame]

i dont think the dev are running servers only for them..and also it will not have enough players to play with

[true crescent]

Does the caster's willpower and or spell power affect the duration of buffs and debuffs they cast on others? And if so, by how much?

[prisma marsh]

old gameplay/recordings

[sharp prism]

soo anyone know whether Rangers traps are gonna be tuned slightly? like not proccing the trap if you sneak over it like the traps throughout the maps?
theres been a couple of scenarios where they are just straight up broken. E.G. the circle is closing in behind you and a ranger is blocking the 1 door with a trap - theres literally nothing you can do at that point and feels a little too busted

[prime venture]

usually you can jump them or disarm them

[sharp prism]

the amount of times i hit the doorway and boop right down into the trap is too damn high 😛 could definitely be a skill issue tho

[desert remnant]

the only thing thats wrong with the ranger trap atm is the fact that sometimes you cant even click on it.

otherwise its mechanically great

[prime venture]

maybe depends by the geometry of the maps and the timings
you can also jump crouching by doing space + ctrl

[desert remnant]

im pretty sure you can jump it.

[prime venture]

click as in disarming them? maybe the hitbox might be smaller
but once i managed to disarm it when i was trapped

[desert remnant]

yeah, sometimes when you stand on one theres a body its clipped in, or something else over the top

i had an instance where there was no trap to click on under something

[sharp prism]

also question number 2: is it just me or does it feel like the circle closes a bit fast? sometimes if you get pve'd like crazy you dont even have time to loot the first room you walk into before the circle closes on your ass.
Also prevents you from circling around if a team is blocking one entrance - not sure whether other ppl felt this way but imo itd be nice to have a little more wiggle room in terms of movement that way

[desert remnant]

yeah, i absolutely hate the circle speed. but id like no circle at all.

it doesnt damage much, but i dont like it. id like some alternate mechanic

[sharp prism]

i guess do the closing circle after 50% of the time has passed? first half of the game you can just go ham and then after a bit it forces you to either extract or move down a floor

if it isnt gonna get removed at all that is :p

[desert remnant]

maybe. im not sure what the solution is, really. devs will likely just tweak speeds for a bit

[prime venture]

ah that might be a problem actually

maybe changing in way where you need to spam "A" and "D" to disarm might be good
preventing that problem

cause if there's a body over the trap it might be problematic

[desert remnant]

yeah, absolutely. they know of the problem at least, because they did remove the minigame involved.

just not to the exact extent of it

[prime venture]

for what it comes to circles i think it's because they exist probably to make sure people know where portals could spawn

even though of course it's possible to hear them as well without seeing the circle but the circle at least gives some sense of orientation
but id like also as well something different because circles look like very battle royalish to be fair

like a generic mechanic, not that there's something wrong but im also for something that might be different as well

[desert remnant]

they could always make more static areas for portals (with some randomness) from the center

like... its definitely another problem, but i feel like the randomness doesnt matter that much

[slate marsh]

Game in its current state is awesome. I wouldn’t dream of changing the circle. It works. It forces PVP. It makes the game harder. It’s another thing that makes you go oh crap oh crap oh crap. I love it.

[desert remnant]

there are other better ways to encourage PvP though.

and give that feeling.

like... tarkov has the same feeling, maybe even moreso. no circle.

[slate marsh]

Tarkov most certainly does bot have that feeling

Not*

Regardless. This is the wrong channel for this. Goodbye

[prime venture]

not sure if it forces pvp, it could
but people if they want, they can also avoid pvp and camping, because some portion of people want to go in the next floor such the Inferno maps to get better loot

now people that start from the very first floor, they usually don't loot and don't engage in pvp because they want to wait for the red portals

[desert remnant]

how does it not? the ending time, a lot of the time definitely gives that feeling, the only problem being raid length, which can be much shorter.
also, wounds definitely gives that feeling after a fight.

[prime venture]

the one we played wasnt even the first floor anyway

[desert remnant]

i dont know if 'forcing' PvP actually helps the game, tbh.

people are forced enough with the need to escape via portals.

[daring yoke]

But there would still need to be a timer at least

I like the fortnite force field just because it keeps the game intense

[sharp prism]

ew

[desert remnant]

yeah, absolutely. the round cant go on forever.

it could be that the last portal closing ends the round, but im not sure i like that

could just be a timer

[sharp prism]

i mean the closing mechanic is okay because sure it forces some kind of movement toward the centre, which is cool... but it happens too fast imo
the amount of times i've looted a player at extraction only to find that they had looted 3 items makes me think they were constantly running from the circle rather than actually engaging with the content provided on the map. Slower circle closing allows for more map knowledge to be applied, less forced movement which for some classes eliminates a particular disadvantage (aka, being forced down one path because circle closing and being chased by 6 NPCs, only to find yourself met at a door with a trap and 2 ppl waiting there like "ha ha, either wait there and die to npcs/circle dmg or come here and die to us" vs being able to move around and enter through a different point).
Maybe just adding more players to the map (not sure how this influences currencies, rarity, xp extraction spawns etc) could eliminate the "lack of forced pvp" if one were to slow down the circle?

[desert remnant]

is it really that important that people are forced together, though?

it could easily be incentive that pushes people together, like a good middle loot spot, to push people there early and to fight over said loot.

thats FAR better than circle currently is

i like the mix of runs where sometimes i can shoot for the sick fights, and sometimes i like a more chill experience that builds up more slowly

[sharp prism]

agreed. though there are a couple of areas on the map already that do have this (library, central room, boss room with the 4 buff statues) - but now you only have time to clear one, given that you spawn at the right place, and even then sometimes you can clear the npcs but cant loot because circle is now closing already.
I do prefer pvp over pve... by miles, so im all for the higher probability of encountering ppl through a particular mechanic, but just make it a little less gimicky id say 😛

[desert remnant]

the problem with them is mostly that you can loot them quickly, and easily, and the loot isnt really worth the risk.

getting to said loot needs to be slower, take time, and be rather generous.

that way, you cant just get there 30 seconds quicker than everyone else and have it all in under a minute.

[daring yoke]

The game relies on pvp to fill up what its missing for its pve, thats why theres the circle imo

[desert remnant]

my point is that the circle fails to succeed at that already, AND feels bad.

it needs to be replaced, not removed.

[daring yoke]

I liked the idea of instead of circles it was entire rooms

[desert remnant]

possibly. id prefer the idea for something to fight over above all.

theres nothing like a fight over more gain than the clothes off the other's backs.

[daring yoke]

But thats what high roller is for

[desert remnant]

sure, but at that point, why not make non high roller PvE?

im not saying thats a good suggestion at all, but thats effectively it

[daring yoke]

PvE only?

[timber delta]

Has Ironmace said anything about implementing more anti-cheat for the next playtest? I know they've mentioned anti-cheat in general but next playtest is gonna be bonkers.

[desert remnant]

obviously its a bad idea. PvP is what makes the game. but better than average loot for fights in both high roller and normal maps is a good idea.

[sharp prism]

correct. my issue is the speed though, what @desert remnant says atm it doesnt fully succeed at what its supposed to do and feels more like a nuisance than a "oki time to move on" - which is what i feel it should be. Tweak it just a little bit (again not sure how exactly id do this, im just thinking out loud) - slower speed or later start - just to give players a little more time to run through the map they want to - and toward the end, not get forced into really awkward situations that provide advantages for come classes/teams

[desert remnant]

anticheat will not come before release. costs far too much upkeep to try

[daring yoke]

The whole aspect of this game is a steep skill curve that makes you feel highly rewarding when you break through this ‘great filter’

It took me over 5 games to survive a match for the first time

But damn did it feel good

[desert remnant]

so, take this from my perspective. i win over 50% of my PvP fights. the Ai is a joke, and i never lose to it, and clear them quite fast.

i STILL think the circle is too fast and makes the game dull

[daring yoke]

I think the circle in inferno is too fast

But not in floor 2

But it makes sense

[timber delta]

There just needs to be a game mode that doesn't have the swarm, let the players gravitate towards what playstyles they want.

[daring yoke]

The circle is balanced with the rate at which you get loot

If the circle is slower you get more loot

[desert remnant]

yeah, basically. the loot game isnt really relevant, as loot can be balanced around whether there is a circle or not

[daring yoke]

They would have to nerf the value of loot by a lot to slow down or even remove the circle

[desert remnant]

its not the problem. being able to explore and do whatever isnt something you can do, and that does feel bad. i dont like being forced into random areas that may just screw me randomly, because of that.

[daring yoke]

At least in high roller you can kill players with loot

[desert remnant]

if i want to strategise, i want things to be more static and less random.

[daring yoke]

You dodged the problem though

[desert remnant]

which is what?

[daring yoke]

You have to solve the loot issue

[desert remnant]

how is loot an issue though?

how is getting more an issue?

[daring yoke]

To be able to have more time to explore loot needs to be nerfed

Because then progression is too easy

[desert remnant]

sure, what of it? as i said, loot is balanced around the circle. in the same way, it can also be balanced around there not being a circle

so i fail to see your point

[daring yoke]

More time equals more loot equals an easier experience getting out and on future runs

You ruin the balance of the game

[desert remnant]

who said anything about more time?

[daring yoke]

Lmfao

[desert remnant]

the circle being gone doesnt necessarily mean the room lasts longer

it can still close in the same 10minutes.

[daring yoke]

Then write that out lol

[desert remnant]

like.. all of the reasons you've said its a bad idea are things that are trivial to fix. not only that, they are things that need to be rebalanced constantly anyways

[daring yoke]

Being free to access the better outer rooms though equals more loot

[earnest hull]

I know Ironmace pulls a lot of inspiration for Dungeons & Dragons and some direct pulls from the game IE: Barbarian’s Rage ability… my question is Does Dungeon and Dragons updated OGL policy affect Ironmace and Dark and Darker’s development?

[daring yoke]

Highly doubt it

And those things to balance are not trivial

[warped yew]

It's not using the srd or ogl 1.0 as base nor is it using any wotc trademarks so it should be good

[prisma rune]

ok I'm late to the discussion about the circle but @desert remnant do you have any ideas on how to make is better? Like more game modes, different map layout, or really good lot in the center of the map?

[warped yew]

But probably no mind flayer enemies for us

[desert remnant]

no, dark and darker is not DnD material.

[earnest hull]

Makes sense, and good answer! The only thing I can see being an issue is product identity like you’re saying about mind flayers. It specifically mentions unique abilities, monsters etc.

[desert remnant]

depends on the size of the map really.
test 2's tower made a great PvP spot, but was also problematic due to how easy it was to get past. an example of what im thinking of would be that, but you'd have to kill all the AI to open the door with good loot inside. takes a bit to get to, giving others a chance to get there and fight you for it.

a miniboss or something.

even multiple at different points would probably work for the lower maps, since you have more people there anyways.

[prisma rune]

I'm playing devils advocate right now but with the system you just discussed, it would be a lot easier and unbalanced for people who play in groups. I am a solo player and its going to take me way more time to clear a room of AI and all of the people who play in a group will always get the best loot. I looked over the graphs that the devs gave out and most of the player base are solo's.

[desert remnant]

as a solo, you could easily wait for them to engage the AI, then exploit that, correct?

i play exclusively in a group of 2, and that doesnt bother me. theres also the fact that this is a game that will be balanced around 3s, which is what it was and will be continued to be designed for.

you should never be expecting access to the best loot as a solo.

without fighting hard for it, at least.

[prime venture]

for now it seems also balanced for solo players, perhaps some classes does better at least when in solo compared to others

[prime venture]

totally rng in the end, entire teams might die to pve and then you could loot them all and escape later

[desert remnant]

yeah. theres also the fact that losing the circle and allowing good fihgts over this loot would allow the solos to go and loot other stuff.

[prisma rune]

I understand that but most people are solo's and the devs need to get paid eventually and if you exclude half of the game. I just dont think that is feasible.

[lyric notch]

sounds like a skill issue to me

[desert remnant]

i dont see how its excluding half the game, though. if you're worried about something because a 3 might walk on you, thats already in the game involving literally every room in the game.

^

[lyric notch]

Also, thats wat invisible potions are used for

go to a corner, chug it, now they cant see u

[prime venture]

they can hear you and swing to every possible area

[vestal agate]

group players dont need more advantages. if a team of 3 cant always clear the pve element of the loot room how is a solo ever even supposed to attempt it

[desert remnant]

like.. im not sure how you'd complain about a rush objective when it basically gives you either a place to go for a 1v3 fun fight, or a place to AVOID because you're scared of 1v3

its best case, no?

[lyric notch]

Usually u chug it when they are busy

[prisma rune]

I'm talking about the way you suggested with clearing each room before you can move on. That is not a good option for the game as a hole.

[prime venture]

the reality it's that even as solo you can kinda kill any mob in safety, the thing is that with a trio you are way more faster and time is essential

[desert remnant]

i didnt say anything about clearing each room before moving.

just the loot room.

[prime venture]

as solo you waste time and it's on you if you want to waste time, it could be detrimental

[lyric notch]

Well, that depends

[prisma rune]

So you can just walk into the loot room then clear it then get all of the loot?

[lyric notch]

if u dont try other classes, then u dont know how they manage the times for difrent types of gamestyle

[desert remnant]

as i said, clearing the entire room would be needed for the good loot.

[lyric notch]

if u want pve and loot, cleric, one Q and most mobs will be at 10%hp or less

[desert remnant]

yeah, cleric is insane for clearing

[prime venture]

the loot room can be anywhere really. it's just that some places have more loot than others

[lyric notch]

2 clercis with dual AOE Q, instantly wipe rooms

thats cool

[vestal agate]

From above:
" an example of what im thinking of would be that, but you'd have to kill all the AI to open the door with good loot inside. takes a bit to get to, giving others a chance to get there and fight you for it."

he sugested a static gaurded loot room

[desert remnant]

you can do exactly that with a cleric and a fighter/ranger.

[prime venture]

also just a rogue, if you loot and lock enemies behind doors works as well
and can potentially survive more in hiding if things go wrong

[lyric notch]

yup

[desert remnant]

dont need 2.

[vestal agate]

group players dont need more advantages

[lyric notch]

yup, and if u are a good rogue, u def know that u dont need to wear shoes

[prime venture]

yes

[desert remnant]

so, what you're saying is that we cant make the game more fun if it only benefits 3s?

the team size the game was designed for?

[lyric notch]

as far i can tell, teams of 3 are more prone to friendly fire

[vestal agate]

bro you argue for people. state your opinion and let them respond with how they feel.
I never said "we cant make the game more fun"

The feature you are suggesting would largely only benefit group play widening the gap between solo and teams.

[prime venture]

they can also drop all of their gear, while they are chased by 3 people and getting the maximum speed and they will take distance and manage to escape
at cost of sacrificing their armors but it's worth probably

i usually dont use shoes cause yes it's more silent

[desert remnant]

no, you didnt. but in response to this making the game more enjoyable, you state it shouldnt be done 'purely' because it effects 3s better than solos.

which is effectively that. you didnt say it, but thats where that argument leads

[vestal agate]

thank you for telling me what my argument "actually" meant instead of listening to what I had to say. goodluck with your idea 👋

[desert remnant]

i mean, you didnt say anything other than that.. so, it wasnt really an argument.

just 'oh no, solo players, so sad'

as i said, solo players benefit from places to fight over loot, because you can either fight there too, or go somewhere else where they arnt

[daring yoke]

You should just play a different game

Like hunt showdown or tarkov

[desert remnant]

uhh.. what?

[prisma rune]

What did you not like about the zone again? And people lets all be nice we are just discussing how to make the game we all like better.

[desert remnant]

mostly that its randomness that isnt needed, and pushes a pace that prevents strategy really.

actually, if it were static, i may not mind it as much

[crude lantern]

i think there should be ways to manipulate it

or stuff that gives immunity to the fog for a bit

game is in early development

nothing is final

[desert remnant]

i dont think the damage even matters.

its more the idea of it

[narrow kernel]

it helps keeps the games quick

thats the whole idea of it

[desert remnant]

why would game length change without the circle?

[narrow kernel]

because people would be camping 1 room

[desert remnant]

i imagine it would still be the same time length, still have the same portals in the middle, and still required to seek and fight them

[narrow kernel]

and it'd make content somewhat stale if that were to happen

you'll have people just running around looking for people camping

you see circle, makes you move. makes people run into each other

for more organic gameplay

[prisma rune]

I agree i think the static would not be a bad idea but i do think its a good way of balancing the game for everyone. I can creep in the darkness of the zone with ample heals waiting for the chads to leave.

[prime venture]

then they will not loot and wasting time maybe
cause the timer there will be still active, regardless if the circle is not there
and you have to escape still

[desert remnant]

wouldnt it be more organic without the circle though? people running into each other because they just crossed tracks is far more oraganic than a circle pushing it

[narrow kernel]

thats my point. people will do it though.

[desert remnant]

i imagine the game would just end with the last portal

[narrow kernel]

circles good imo. makes people think on the fly.

[desert remnant]

whats wrong with people wasting their time camping though?

[narrow kernel]

everything? 😄

[prime venture]

they probably won't get better loot, but realistically as i said earlier the circle exists also because it gives an idea where portals could spawn

[desert remnant]

they do it already in the middle, so camping for PvP isnt really part of the conversation

[hoary gazelle]

It would be most organic without, but the circle is the middle ground you want for tension and contention over portals. Otherwise everyone gets out.

[prime venture]

without the circle not sure how portals can be handled

you may not find them in time

[desert remnant]

why does the circle have anything to do with portals and tention in escaping? again, that would still be there, and likely in a similar contended area

portals could be marked in a circle like fashion, without damage outside it.

[prime venture]

if you have no circle, you have no idea where portals could spawn

[hoary gazelle]

Camping is a non problem

[narrow kernel]

if you lose the circle, everyone takes blue portal. with circle, you gotta think on the fly, and potentially take red portals if you're stuck.

[desert remnant]

you would know they are in a certain area.

there arnt enough blues for everyone.

[prime venture]

if they spawn

cause it's rng, they don't spawn near to players, even if it looks like

[narrow kernel]

the circle keeps every single game unique. every plan, strategy is different every time.

[prime venture]

it looks like because the circle get more smaller

[desert remnant]

there are ALWAYS the same number of portals, spawned randomly in the current circle.

[prime venture]

yes

[desert remnant]

starting location, different players and different layouts are enough to keep the game fresh.

[prime venture]

without circle, you may not find them maybe

[sacred gale]

What about use this Channel for its purpose and not for whatever you are on

[desert remnant]

i mean, the circle itself could still exist only to show portal locations.

[sacred gale]

There is a beautiful game discussion just above

[narrow kernel]

starting locations are static, easy to determine where players have spawned. obviously different layouts are coming. but still, circle keeps it fresher

[desert remnant]

i dont really think it does.

but portal locations would do the same, no?

assuming they were random and 'findable'

[narrow kernel]

thats it though, you could be running around the whole map to look for one. at laest with the circle, you know you're gonna be nearer one when the circle comes in

[desert remnant]

again, why cant they be marked within an area with the damaging circle existing?

[narrow kernel]

because thats completely voids all your arguement about the circle.

you're saying no circle, but circle on the portals?

makes 0 sense.

[desert remnant]

does it though? it doesnt force you in early, you only need to go in to escape.

[novel badge]

guys how many can you be in party?

[desert remnant]

the argument is not enough to or freedom to explorel.

[desert remnant]

3

[grand crater]

3

[indigo oracle]

The circle is fine as is

[narrow kernel]

thats the whole point on the circle, to FORCE you in

[novel badge]

thanks

[narrow kernel]

to force you to encounter other people

to force you to think on the fly.

[desert remnant]

my entire argument is that alternatives can do that better.

thats the problem with people coming in halfway xD

[narrow kernel]

alternatives that have worked in another game

maybe not this 1

[desert remnant]

who said anything about another game?

i havent brought up examples.

[prisma rune]

I think the circle does keep the game refreshing but @desert remnant I understand what you are talking about but I just don't agree with you. So we will just have to agree to disagree. Hope you guys have a great day!

[narrow kernel]

because other games have circles?

[sharp prism]

right now it goes to fast to force you to think on the fly. you have to be ahead of the curve to do this properly with the current implementation

[desert remnant]

and other games also dont have circles.

[grand crater]

I don't see that happening. circle has also better rng with bosses, puting a timer on how fast you need to go through inferno

[desert remnant]

timer not connected to circle, seperate argument

[sharp prism]

matter of fact, this mechanic atm removes your ability to think on the fly as soemtimes you're forced movement into 1 specific direction, rather than being able to evaluate positioning and adjust accordingly

[narrow kernel]

that comes down to map knowledge though

[grand crater]

some circles early on overlap the boss room, it s not disconnected

[desert remnant]

but thats a good point. sometimes the circle would remove your ability to fight the bnoss entirely.

[narrow kernel]

many times i had to track back to be able to get into a positive position due to the circle, thats thinking on the fly

[desert remnant]

that is, imo extremely bad

the boss should always be accessable, and you shouldnt get screwed mid fight

[sharp prism]

correct but with slower circle, you can shine and show the world your map knowledge more so than current implementation

[prime venture]

it also leaves some enemies that are still alive behind

[novel badge]

the game is free to play for anyone right now?

[grand crater]

I don't think so, boss kills should be something planned for accordingly by going fast through inferno rooms

Not something you can squeeze in after clearing 4 rooms

[narrow kernel]

game isnt live atm

[desert remnant]

sometimes the inferna circle closes over the boss room first closing.

thats not enough time to kill the boss, sometimes not even to get there

[indigo oracle]

That when you just extract and retry

[narrow kernel]

^

[prime venture]

they said bosses in the inferno maps technically are bosses for the B2 floor

[grand crater]

yes and that's fair, not every inferno run should give the opportunity

[narrow kernel]

quick games.

[desert remnant]

great mechanic. cant kill the boss because of circle, just do it again.

thats actually a poor argument.

every run should have the opportunity.

[narrow kernel]

this is the point, quick games. 12 min games, forced circle, means you get into another game much much quicker than waiting around

[indigo oracle]

Things aren’t always gonna go your way

[grand crater]

I mean it's about inferno having more than one purpose, that being to kill the boss

[novel badge]

when is it live? 😄

[desert remnant]

by going through 3 floors, and fighting 2 parties over the right to fight the boss, you should get a boss.

[sharp prism]

6feb-13feb as it stands currently

[desert remnant]

assuming you can kill it.

[narrow kernel]

if you want the game to be easy mode, why play at all? its designed to be hardcore. its advertised as hardcore

[indigo oracle]

^^

[narrow kernel]

if 1 raid doesnt have what you want, extract, got again.

[indigo oracle]

Game is meant to be rugged

Not perfect

[grand crater]

you get a good oportunity regardless, you can mine, farm rooms, kill boss. these are 3 options that I think make it worthwhile to get to inferno even without 100% possibility to kill boss

[narrow kernel]

besides, bosses dont always have good loot on them

you can waste 1-2 mins killing it, for it to drop a grey dagger

[grand crater]

boss loot is besides the point

[narrow kernel]

RNGesus

[desert remnant]

thats completely beside the point. if you cant do one of the main lures to go down to b3 each time, thats bad.

yeah, what the boss drops is irrelevant

[narrow kernel]

or, in the words of many people, gitgud.

[desert remnant]

again, its not gitgud.

because its not related to skill.

[sharp prism]

this is also how i approached tarkov, i had a goal for every raid. This raid i go here and look for items A and B, next raid i go to other area to farm for C and D, etc. that is solid

[narrow kernel]

it kinda is?

[indigo oracle]

If you have the gear to fight the boss, you will have no troubles getting to b3

[desert remnant]

i believe part of my argument is that its not related to skill, right? not getting an attempt on a boss isnt a skill flaw.

its a game flaw.

[narrow kernel]

if it takes you longer than 1 min to take a boss down, its defo skill related.

[desert remnant]

1 min to get there and fight 2 other parties off of it?

or over it

[narrow kernel]

thats the way the game goes.

and how it should be

[grand crater]

i feel like opinions regarding gear and loot are irrelevant, we played only 66% of the game with bosses moved from a level to the other and game progression was made a lot faster than it was intended

[desert remnant]

i mean, if you think thats an acceptable time frame, you're insane.

[narrow kernel]

its hardcore. its ment to be exactly that, hard.

[desert remnant]

yeah, what loot drops is whatever. its about the ability to play.

[narrow kernel]

not "oh heres a boss room lets spend 5 mins farming it"

[indigo oracle]

Seems pretty reasonable to me

[narrow kernel]

its about being quick. using everything at your disposal in those short 12 mins. you dont get what you want that raid? thats cool, extract (or die) and retry.

[desert remnant]

inferno doesnt last 12minutes lol

or at least didnt.

[narrow kernel]

that, right there is the point of the circle, replayability, not waiting or rushing around trying to find a blue portal that could be on the other side of the map

[indigo oracle]

It’s definitely not 12 minutes

[desert remnant]

its more like 6 lol.

maybe 8

[narrow kernel]

plenty of time

[indigo oracle]

Yea probably

[desert remnant]

its barely enough time to fight. but again, the amount of time is a seperate argument

i feel like some 3v3 fights each with a cleric can last more than 6 minutes lol

[grand crater]

I think this is irrelevant, the game feels like it would benefit more from the mentality "you can't plan what you do so you need to become good at recognizing opportunities and being able to harvest as much as you can" than from the mentality "i am gonna try to enforce my plan so I can guarantee what I am looking for".

Basically scrapping vs farming

I prefer scrapping

[narrow kernel]

then if it does, thats the content on that raid. you either died or won the fight, get their loot and get out. easy. then try again next raid

[desert remnant]

yeah, thats why i like that they are making maps more random.

its great for the game.

[craggy yacht]

Too many people want this game to have easy mode locked in or unreasonable quality of life changes that take the ‘Hardcore’ tag completely off this game. Sometimes the circle doesn’t go your way but others it does. It’s a great core mechanic to keep you playing rather than getting everything you want in a single run

[desert remnant]

i dont think the circle is really related to the difficulty.

[indigo oracle]

The whole concept adds to the risk and reward theme of the game

[narrow kernel]

this is perfect. yes. every raid you gotta think on the fly (which has been my arguement) some opportunities wont be available to you.

[desert remnant]

the game can always be made more difficult. i felt like as it was, it was pretty easy, talking about AI

[grand crater]

I agree with darknesse that the circle does not necessarily enforce thinking on the fly

[indigo oracle]

Another issue, but yea ai was too simple

[grand crater]

though

but i don t see his alternative option as being better

[indigo oracle]

Could cheese almost anything in the game

[narrow kernel]

how does the circle not enforce thinking on the fly?

its random, you gotta think on the fly

[desert remnant]

yeah, im sure there are better options. im no developer.

[narrow kernel]

"cant go this way, its a dead end and takes me away, need to find another way"

[sharp prism]

i even think it limits the extent to which you can think on the fly now (in terms of total map knowledge and possibilities regarding strategy and positioning)

[desert remnant]

my ideas arnt necessarily good, but the problem does exist.

[hoary gazelle]

Because the circle does like 5 damage

[indigo oracle]

Referencing the ai system?

[desert remnant]

nah, middle rooms to fight over loot i think

[narrow kernel]

solo man comes across a 3 man, solo man runs back into the circle to find a new route with heals, 3 man has a choice, follow or stay safe.

thinking on the fly.

[grand crater]

sometimes yes, other times you don't make a decision because you get forced into it by the external parameters. etc: time, what room you are in, etc. If you are on a long hallway and on one side there is the darkness and on the other one there isn't you don't have to make a choice, you just go

[desert remnant]

none of that really relates to the circle, or requires it though. the same thing exists without it

[grand crater]

it's a good example, I would just not say that it's very common

[desert remnant]

you still need to adapt based on location, direction and risk of pathways

[narrow kernel]

i didnt say EVERYTHING had to be thought of on the fly. yes the game forces situations. but thats also good. its called problem solving 😄

[desert remnant]

all of those qualities also exist without the circle, though

[narrow kernel]

how though

[desert remnant]

in fact, i feel like the circle removes options, or doesnt give them.

[grand crater]

yes but @desert remnant's point is that you probably get forced more into a pathway than you get to make a decision of where to go

which i can see as being possible

[narrow kernel]

how, lay me down some examples. because all you've been saying is "none of this is relevant to the circle" when it actually is

[craggy yacht]

Also stops stupid stand offs as without the circle it’s just farming simulator it forces fights which at the heart of it this is what the game is pvp

[narrow kernel]

this.

[desert remnant]

more available decisions = more rewarding to think on the fly to escape. right now people just run wherever and deal with the consequences.

[narrow kernel]

exactly

[grand crater]

he just said remove the circle, not remove the timer. maps would still be 10 minutes long

[narrow kernel]

thats the whole point

[hoary gazelle]

The problem is the gameplay weve experienced isnt the big picture. The loot is overtuned compared to lack of difficulty. When more features replace their present alpha version things will make more sense. I would like a bigger overall map with less loot density and modular rooms and then the circle would feel more impactful as well for cutting off the map.

[desert remnant]

this is funny. im almost done, because most people bring in arguments completely unrelated like that.

act like removing the circle changes random other parts of the game

[craggy yacht]

The circle is a key component to the pvp though as otherwise it starts to become stupidly slow for pvp. It’s good that it draws players to a middle point where you have to plan an exit

[narrow kernel]

your arguement is to remove the circle, and now people are disagreeing you're like "im almost done".

the game is ment to be hard. end of story.

[desert remnant]

as i said, its because the arguments are unrelated, not because they disagree.

timer isnt related to the circle.

nor is loot.

[narrow kernel]

it kind of is.

[wind wedge]

Quick question.
When the game is rdy for actual launch, will it be purchasable or f2p
And if purchased, do you have any idea of the price? 🙂

[grand crater]

his point was that there would be better mechanics to implement than the circle that would do what the circle does

[hoary gazelle]

The circle isnt hard, its just tightening gameplay and makea combat less methodical and more rush down brainlesa

[desert remnant]

ok, people get more loot because no circle. its too much loot. devs tweak loot numbers down.

its not really related.

[narrow kernel]

you cant get to some loot due to the circle. therefore the circle affects your "looting" capabilities. which SHOULD be different every single raid.