Tom And Jerry

[subtle lotus]

You really need the reading part and set ups to play him

[raven onyx]

Not according to the Competitve MVS Discord

[subtle lotus]

I think his balanced for me

And competitive community are just an bunch of grindy casuals on masters

[raven onyx]

Yea

I went competitive when i started tbh

[subtle lotus]

Bugs its balanced bc he needs a lot of reads to perfectly kill

Even when nair into up air exist

You need to read the di and change the nair float direction to connect the up air

You need to read di to connect up air

So its fair for me

I play bugs and he needs a lot of reading

That what I would like to see with Tom and Jerry

[raven onyx]

Nair is his main combo move so if that gets nerfed more hes done

[subtle lotus]

Nair its ok for me

You need to read di to connect the up air

And if you want to kill with rocket

You need to dodge read

Also jab up tilt nair fast fall into jab is not true on good di

So his balanced for me

[raven onyx]

Im Master 5 with Bugs and im struggling with Nair and Tunnel everything else is fine

[subtle lotus]

I'm masters 3 with bugs in 2s

I think his balanced besides being really annoying with tunnel

[raven onyx]

Most Bugs guides are out of date

[subtle lotus]

Yep

But his really good

Needs some reading

And set ups

Also I'm an masters 1 T&J on 1s

So ik this character its just horrible in any sense that isn't projectile camp

And ledge trap

[raven onyx]

Im almost done mastering Bugs its just combos with nair in the air and tunnel

[subtle lotus]

I could teach you

What do you need?

[raven onyx]

Nair Combos in the air and Tunnel setups

[subtle lotus]

Ok

[raven onyx]

Even with 2.5k wins i still struggle

[subtle lotus]

For nair you need to keep pressed the jump button

To perform the new tech

You'll float a lil bit

With it

So you need to khow this to things

[raven onyx]

The Bugs chat is dead so i didnt know what it was

[subtle lotus]

Ok

Don't worry i could teach you

I alr khow all the tech and set ups

[raven onyx]

You mind if we 1v1 to take notes?

[subtle lotus]

Ok

Maybe finish smth

Il notice you when im done

[raven onyx]

K ill trying get muscle memory with the nair tech

[subtle lotus]

I alr have it

Ain't that hard

Just a lil di read

[raven onyx]

Have what

[subtle lotus]

The muscle memory

[raven onyx]

?

[subtle lotus]

On bugs bunny

[raven onyx]

Ik that but im confused

[subtle lotus]

Like nair tech with di read

And Bugs gameplan

And how to rush with him

Nair solo is not an good idea

Always use pie to start rushing down

So you can cover the air side with nair

And the grounded side with pie

[raven onyx]

So get stage control?

[subtle lotus]

Exactly

And doing rocket up p then safe to make it bounce

[raven onyx]

Ik how to do that im just struggling with Neutral,Air combos and Tunnel setupz

[subtle lotus]

Set an rabbit hole below the safe after it touch the ground

[subtle lotus]

Oh

Neutral air its really di dependent

Theres some variants on neutral air depending on di

But an tip its to not approach with neutral air if you dont have an pie set up

You can rush with nair if you alr got smth set up to cover you

Bc its easy to space and punish

[raven onyx]

Don't most moves cover that now?

[subtle lotus]

Yes

[dusty nova]

Didos are cursed. Tho It makes sense I was sad to find out that duo fighters can't Exsist in ranked I was random ranked match making and I got a tnj team mate even tho it was ranked and we clapped cheecks tho after we won and he joined my party we couldn't go back into ranked

But it was funny to get a technically illegal match on ranked

[hidden verge]

TnJ didos is just whoever lands pan more😭

And if your in disadvantage you just shoot Jerry at them

[raven onyx]

Well time to send prayers to hope we get buffed

[hidden verge]

I honestly think there fine rn

[raven onyx]

No Jump Branch,Awful Meta rn for them,bad kill power

[hidden verge]

How are you telling me this when im a master top 100 TnJ

I know what I’m talking about

And I think there fine

Sure they are nowhere near as good as they were before

But jump cancel would destroy the whole string of nerfs they just did

Since jump is technically an after paddle input you can Jerry shot again

And people would complain

You know that

Right?

And the meta isn’t awful for them

Arya if you play smart you can win

Banana guard just needs a nerf period

Shaggy is just shaggy

Smith is gonna get nerfed again

Let that sink in

[raven onyx]

I died to Batman at 30

3x weakened

[glossy path]

Yea some people just don't listen when you tell them stuff

[hidden verge]

Where one of the lightest characters in the game

[hidden verge]

Real

[glossy path]

Like T&J is still a good character

RN the game is just plagued with bs

[hidden verge]

Imma just copy paste this and leave it here

[hidden verge]

People saying to give Tom his jump cancel window again i honestly don’t agree with if they did that the whole string of nerfs they just did to them would absolutely be useless since jump cancel is an after paddle input you could theoretically shoot Jerry after jump and we would have the loop again which is a no go

[glossy path]

Yes

[hollow flax]

Banana guard is fine rn. You just want him nerfed cause he easily wins the mu

[hidden verge]

He wins multiple meta matchups he can just fly around the air

His sair kills to early

[hollow flax]

Nah Tom is just light. And his aerials are pretty laggy so you can just anti air him

[raven onyx]

How i would change TnJ:Make them Heavier
More Kill Power
More Jerry Health
Give Jump Branch back

[hollow flax]

How I would change Tom and Jerry: remove him

[dusty nova]

I got a dido team mate on duos ranked tho witch was funny and not supposed to be allowed and ngl actual 1vw didos suck azz and in my opinion dosent prove who's better

[dusty nova]

🤝

[dusty nova]

The jump cancel wasn't the issue it's was the jump into down jerry spam even if it didn't always connect I used paddle into jump down pan and it was DI able but it was still a fun good alternative to half his combos just vanishing they could of just made jerry shot get super stale on the second use or make it so it can't be used more then once out of jump cancel or just not at all to completely Remove the chance of a fake infinite against the largest characters like ig or jason

[glossy path]

So make them unquestionably #1

[raven onyx]

TnJ kill like 130 to 150 or 170 with IG

[dusty nova]

I think he just needs the jump cancel and maybe a jerry Tweak with it to prevent fake inf Spam

[glossy path]

I've died and seen people die at 90

[dusty nova]

With ig its more like 180

[raven onyx]

I dont even use it

[dusty nova]

I never used the infinite either

[glossy path]

Just because you didn't use it didn't mean it wasn't there

[raven onyx]

Just avoid the scoop and dont be above them

[dusty nova]

I thought tnjs waight was good when he had his jump cancel Cous in turn for being a light having low dmg and easy to kill he had his combos with jump cancel but then they removed it

[glossy path]

Ah yes don't be above the character that shoots projectiles horizontally

[raven onyx]

While Paddle is active

[glossy path]

Yea and most of the time he'll still get out of the move before you can punish it

Or run behind his trap

[dusty nova]

I think fins dash shouldn't delete the cheese trap it's so dum

[glossy path]

Finn is dumb

He's the anti playing the game assassin

[dusty nova]

Place it down after a long ah Cool down trying to stay alive from fins bs And he
Dashes at the cheese trap like a moth to the flame

[glossy path]

"You have projectiles? No you don't lmao"

[dusty nova]

Fr

[glossy path]

I've also seen 2 youtube comments claim vastly different things about Finn

One said his air game is better than his ground game and the other said the opposite

[raven onyx]

Both are reallt good

[glossy path]

Exactly

[dusty nova]

Fin has the best air game in the game fr sure combo and not combos string

[glossy path]

One of those comments was under a grand finals set between Flacoco and Jungle

Flacoco killed Jungle with a combo that works at 0 like... 8 times

[dusty nova]

Flacoco is meanie to fight

[glossy path]

Most recent patch btw

[dusty nova]

Im glad some one else can see the fin bs

They should of just buffed the low tears instead of a nerfing my pookie tom and buffingnbatman fr some reason

[raven onyx]

PFG glazes DC

[dusty nova]

I'm SAYIN

[glossy path]

T&J have always been good

And they still are

It's just comparing them to their prime makes them look a lot worse than they are

[raven onyx]

If you call dying at 70 good you need to play them

[dusty nova]

Literally all of his "combos" Are Dodge.
Able , you would be lucky to get a thirty combo

[glossy path]

Anyone can die at 70 by the good characters

[dusty nova]

Shaggy dose thirty dmg in one hit for reference

[glossy path]

His combis are dodgeable but he has a huge projectile game

Which is where most of his damage should be coming from

[raven onyx]

Bc blast zones are way to small

[glossy path]

And he's a top 2 character

Kinda a cheap comparison

[dusty nova]

Theyer all slow moving Anyone who knows how to counter tom and jerry can overpower and punish

[glossy path]

Well that's just a skill issue on the T&J's part

Because overpowering their projectile game leaves them open to up close options

Which T&J do have

[dusty nova]

He's has 2 actual kill moves, Jerry rocket and fishing Pole.One of them has to be across the map and the other one has to be led in to by like a downpan

[raven onyx]

Fishing pole is trash

[glossy path]

Up air kills wth

Jab into dtilt

[dusty nova]

Meanwhile majority roster has jab kill comfirms thar kill tom at 90

[glossy path]

Dair kills disgustingly early if you get them off the stage

[dusty nova]

All up airs kill tbf

[glossy path]

Yea but you can't just leave that out then

[dusty nova]

You gotta be your right next to blast

[glossy path]

There's a reason they removed the sweetspot instead of making it bigger

[dusty nova]

Or be at 100

[glossy path]

I'd love to fight some of yall with T&J if I didn't think they were really clunky to me

[cyan whale]

Imma be real. The reason why people seem to not be able to kill is for the same reason people find it difficult to kill in Smash Brawl

Staling your kill moves

[glossy path]

Yea sounds about right

[cyan whale]

Like the staling similarly to Brawl is very drastic

I’ve noticed while playing T&J that uair can kill as early as 90 or as late as like 120 against the same character

[dusty nova]

Either way, there are certain characters that just completely overpowere.Tom and jerry right now Like jason who can kill tom before he has enough damage to do anything Especially with rage Tom doin like 2-3 % per hit💀 You could hit a jason the same amount of times more even and have three times the damage compared to them

[cyan whale]

Oh I never said T&J wasn’t weak. He absolutely is and I don’t know why he wasn’t compensated with the paddle jump cancel removal

[dusty nova]

I'm aware that that's what his character does.But when you are a light character that can't combo like he used to and doesn't do damage your cooked

[glossy path]

T&J isn't weak idk where this is coming from

[dusty nova]

And jasons fat as hel

[cyan whale]

T&J just needs more consistency to his combo game

[cyan whale]

He’s like lower mid tier rn

[glossy path]

How is it that the #1 ranked player does perfectly fine vs everyone

[dusty nova]

Bro do you even play him? And if you do do you only fight bronz players

[glossy path]

But then everyone just becomes a hivemind saying they're mid

[cyan whale]

Hardcore Fox got to where he is by abusing paddle loops

Like he’s still a top player

[glossy path]

I've said before I don't play him but I've also played against him and dealing with constant projectiles, good paddle usage and jerry shot is insane

[dusty nova]

I want a jump cancel back after 3 previous nerfs dawg 💀 I even Suggested tweaking a Jerry shot.So the original problem couldn't come back in any way

[cyan whale]

But he absolutely abused paddle loops to stay at #1

[glossy path]

What does jump cancel give

One more attack?

[cyan whale]

It gives back the loop

[glossy path]

Exactly

That's the issue

You can't fix it without making it so complicated the spaghetti code would become more complicated than a spider web

[cyan whale]

Paddle multihit jump cancel into Jerry shot and tech chase with the really easy to follow auto tech

[dusty nova]

The projectiles are kind of easy to avoid dawg And if you're jason and he's throwing projectiles at you , you can get a full rage out and walk through 3 tennis balls and hit tom mid mallet swing before it runs out

[glossy path]

Yea so easy to avoid when the tom is also there

[cyan whale]

The issue with T&J currently is that he has no consistent kill confirm

[glossy path]

Have you ever fought against T&J as anyone else?

[cyan whale]

Jab 1,2,3 to dtilt is super inconsistent and most characters can escape by DI’ing up

Paddle to uair isn’t true on DI away against everyone except Jason

[dusty nova]

good jason makes trying to put out projectiles a punishable offense

[cyan whale]

Making both of those consistent would pretty much instantly fix the issues with T&J not being able to kill

[glossy path]

Not really? If there's no platforms def not

[dusty nova]

Notice how I dont wanna nerf characters I just want what he had back and to get low tierss buffed

[glossy path]

Yea but I don't care what you want and your moral high ground of keeping things busted so people can stay happy

[cyan whale]

Having been on both sides of the T&J vs Jason matchup, I can say that T&J absolutely destroys Jason

[dusty nova]

I fought many jasons lately all master 2-1 and trust me they can💀 his set combined with his armor grab is really good

[glossy path]

So it's just a skill issue like I thought

[glossy path]

Almost like you should play around it then

[cyan whale]

Yeah it’s scary when Jason can kill at like 50, but he actually needs that to be able to not have the matchup be near unwinnable

[dusty nova]

Bro calling it a skill issue but dosent play the character 💀

Crazy

[glossy path]

Do you play Jason?

[dusty nova]

I have and used to yeah

[glossy path]

How much tho

I could say the same about T&J

[cyan whale]

Tbf the matchup isn’t as bad for Jason as it used to be now that he got buffed

[dusty nova]

400 wins on him

R so

[glossy path]

That's almost nothing ngl

[dusty nova]

I got 1910 tnj wins rn

[glossy path]

I've seen Batman's with 500 wins not know how to play the game

[dusty nova]

It's enough to know how the character works and what makes him goofy

[cyan whale]

I’ve seen character mains with 3000 wins not know how to play the game

[glossy path]

Exactly

[dusty nova]

Fuhh

[cyan whale]

Win count means nothing tbh

[glossy path]

Amount of wins doesn't mean anything

[dusty nova]

Clips mean somthin tho

[glossy path]

No they don't

Jason's a clip bot

Because people panic vs him all the time

[cyan whale]

Both on the sending and receiving end lmao

[dusty nova]

I wouldn't really call.
Impressing two buttons the combo as jason tho

[glossy path]

Exactly

[cyan whale]

I’m still sad that my 50 to death tech chase with T&J against a Jason didn’t properly clip

[dusty nova]

#clips they might prove just a little bit

[dusty nova]

I got more after the nerf but that's pre removed jump cancel

[glossy path]

I mean yea cool I guess?

[dusty nova]

You can't tell me a bad player could pull that 💀 that hearly was Dimond

[glossy path]

Diamond? I thought she was plat ngl

[cyan whale]

Harley mains all look the same ngl

[dusty nova]

Fair assumption

[glossy path]

Yeaaaa

[cyan whale]

They all mash the same options because they work

[glossy path]

She dodged into your jerry rocket

[dusty nova]

I knew what they wanted from move to move

And they paid the PRICE

[glossy path]

Yea cause every player in this gamr plays the same

[dusty nova]

Except certain players like Characters that can actually mix it up like bugs . Debatably gizmo marvin tnj rick

[hidden verge]

Not listening to the top 100 TnJ

Nah the randos clearly know more

Clearly

[hidden verge]

Am I right

[glossy path]

Yeaaaaa

[cyan whale]

I can’t believe the definitive top 4 in this game are Shaggy, Smith, Banana Guard, and Powerpuff Girls

[dusty nova]

Brih

[odd wadi]

[odd wadi]

So the game reset my t&j level back to 0 yesterday.

[odd marsh]

It’s a glitch

[odd wadi]

Okay cool.

[coarse drift]

These new ranked maps suck for this character

[odd wadi]

I feel like they suck period

I can't stand these tiny stages and blast zones being super close. I'm not even a player that likes running from people but it's ridiculous that the PPG stage is THAT small. I don't like Dexter's stage and I don't like the warner bros stage either.

[coarse drift]

They don’t suck it’s just a lot of bad matchups tend to be top tiers

A big factor is that we lost our more toxic combos and other characters simply didn’t

I do miss our jump cancel but they probably won’t bring it back

[odd wadi]

I never got into using that just because I figured it would be removed. Too many complaints and getting looped by it when I'm Jason wasn't fun so I definitely understood and was okay with the nerf.

I rather mess around with trying to combo all of their other options into each other. It's always super cool landing em

[grand anchor]

As a tom and jerry main i wanna kindly ask you to get out if you hate tom and jerry

[hollow flax]

lol I’m just trolling he is my secondary. Or I guess thirdary. Idk anymore.

[grand anchor]

Nice

[fathom wadi]

Hey we got an actual skin guys

This batman skin is dope

[subtle lotus]

That's it, also adding an speed buff

[raven onyx]

Why speed?

[subtle lotus]

Bc he's not as fast as he should be

He feels really slow comparing it to the other light characters

Every light character is known to be speedy and light

If we receive an speed buff instead of weight

Would be better

[raven onyx]

What about both

[subtle lotus]

That would be broken

You need to balance things out

He cant be that good

But not that bad

Hes really bad now

Only relies on projectiles

And his kill power and kill confirms are really bad

He struggle to kill if your at more than 110

The only way to kill early with him its with an dair into upair at 80%

[raven onyx]

That doesn't even kill

At 80

[subtle lotus]

Maybe at 100

But i think you can just di

[raven onyx]

Prob the 90-100

[subtle lotus]

Maybe you can di the up air hit

[raven onyx]

Unsure

Bc never see good TnJs anymore

[subtle lotus]

I used to play the character

But he's just really bad

I dropped him

I got into top 20 i think with him

[hollow flax]

I disagree. I think this makes it way easier to just camp and run to Jerry and people already hate that playstyle lol

[subtle lotus]

You can just one shot jerry buddy

Theres a lot of quick air moves on almost every character to kill him

On 1 or 2 hits

[acoustic belfry]

I know I'm too late, but The latest skin is probably the best skin for TnJ, 100% worth the grinding

[trim cave]

Even tho its late, its a true fact

[trim cave]

Theres the cork jerry

Cover floor ground for almost every character

[visual tiger]

They gotta gut up tilt in some way

people starting to play him will literally never get better because they rely exclusively on it

[cyan whale]

They did by removing the paddle loops

The problem is that T&J doesn’t have better options to go for the majority of the time

All his other grounded moves are trash

[fathom wadi]

Which actually makes him worse for new players because it's now a spam move instead of a combo tool

[coarse drift]

His other ground attacks are niche at best

If they gut up tilt they better buff literally every other ground move or else this character would actually be bad

[fathom wadi]

again

they already did

[raven onyx]

Now TnJ mains lets pray we get buffed

[cerulean cliff]

I hold my breath

[cerulean cliff]

They're really pushing for shields to be a mainstay feature it seems

I fear we are mid tier fellas

[fast zephyr]

That short jump they mentioned, its kinda a buff for us right?

Now the pan will go crazy

[cerulean cliff]

Have to wait and see

[fathom wadi]

at least we finnally have a good skin

[fast zephyr]

wich one?

[raven onyx]

Where Tom and Jerry dress up as Batman as Joker

[cerulean cliff]

I grinded to get it and have not touched the game since lol

[bold ocean]

can any tnj mains provide me with some tips i wanna get better as the char (i currently only have 90 wins on them)

[cerulean cliff]

Check back in a bit when we get patch notes

[fast zephyr]

Give me that buff 🗣️

[dusty nova]

Season 4 buff

[fast zephyr]

Hope we can get at least 2 new combos

[fathom wadi]

hopefully

[coarse drift]

They probably gonna buff fishing rod for no reason and do nothing else
(I hope I’m wrong)

[grand anchor]

YEAAAAAAAA

[trim cave]

I mean is fishing rod sniping still possible

With the actual sweet spot

[fast zephyr]

fisher rod is a cool attack, i dont see how they can buff it

unless they eliminate whiff frames from that attack

[fathom wadi]

Pretty much no changes

We just got general changes that's disappointing

[rigid burrow]

Ok guys we got literally nothing 😭😭

[sturdy yarrow]

We got shafted boys

[fast zephyr]

i feel disapointed

[coarse drift]

Eh expected no one likes fighting our character

Now it’s time to determine if the flame perk is worth using anymore

[fast zephyr]

flame perk?

[coarse drift]

It got nerfed

Collateral damage got buffed though which was already a good option

[fast zephyr]

bro...

[fast zephyr]

i didnt hear about that

tell me everything that buff us pls

[coarse drift]

The general movement speed buff and uhhh

[fast zephyr]

tbh, thats kinda meh

because almost everyone is getting a speed buff

[visual tiger]

and nothing else

[visual tiger]

not almost everyone, a bunch of characters didn't get it

it's more like 60% of the cast

[fast zephyr]

i think the majority has already a good speed

thats why they didnt buff everyone

imagine beatlejuice with a speed buff

or batman lmaoo

[coarse drift]

Hitbox changes aren’t too good for this character either

If they did a good job no more spiking through the stage with dair

[fast zephyr]

at least im glad they didnt touch my racquet attack

[coarse drift]

Gotten a lot of cheesy kills with that thing so I’m glad it’s still there

[fast zephyr]

yup, hopefully i get to grand masters this season

i almost hit that rank, but its kinda difficult with this black adams and agent smith mains

[coarse drift]

Good luck that rank is way too grindy for me

I’m just gonna hit masters and go play rivals 2 or something

[minor bluff]

I don't like his jab because it feels really slow, and now the hitbox is smaller at the first two 😭

[cerulean cliff]

It also just

Doesnt work

[fast zephyr]

thx, its not imposible tho

[cerulean cliff]

Still

[fast zephyr]

i hit #5 tnj in the world

nerfs cant stop us

🗣️

[minor bluff]

YEAH a lot of times they just escape the attack from the knock back

[cerulean cliff]

I already made Top 100 once last season I dont need to do it again

[coarse drift]

Adam lowkey got buffed at a first glance so extra good luck with that 😭

[cerulean cliff]

If I play this again I might seriously secondary PPG

[fast zephyr]

whaaaaat

i gotta see that

[cerulean cliff]

All of Adam's buffs are 2's related

[coarse drift]

Check the #announcements

[fast zephyr]

Black Adam

Ground Neutral Attack

• Now grants allies a lightning gauntlet buff on-hit
  ~ Hitbox size adjusted to better match visuals
  Ground Side Attack 1
  – Hitbox size reduced so the attack is less likely to hit behind Black Adam
  Ground Side Attack 2
  – Hitbox size reduced so the attack is less likely to hit behind Black Adam
  Ground Side Attack 3
• Hitbox added to Black Adam’s hand that knocks back enemies that were not grabbed
  – Hitbox size reduced so the attack is less likely to hit behind Black Adam
  Ground Up Attack
• Projectile now grants allies a lightning gauntlet buff on-hit
  ~ Hitbox size adjusted to better match visuals
  Air Side Attack
  ~ Second hit knockback angle made more diagonal
  ~ Now limits fall speed during attack recovery
  Air Up Attack
  ~ Hitbox size adjusted to better match visuals
  Air/Ground Side Special
  – Movement reduced when Black Adam is fatigued (empty dodge meter)
• Projectile now grants allies a lightning gauntlet buff on-hit
  ~ Now limits fall speed during attack recovery
  Ground Down Special
• Successfully blocking a projectile now reduces Black Adam’s active cooldowns 7.5%

• Fixed an issue where the projectile shield would take damage from light projectiles
  Air Down Special

• Projectile now grants allies a lightning gauntlet buff on-hit

god damnit

i hate mvs

[cerulean cliff]

He's fine

[sturdy yarrow]

Very true there was a lot of whining about racket I'm quite surprised it survived

[fast zephyr]

they know they cant nerf us more haha

otherwise, no one will use tnj

[cerulean cliff]

Flammable got gutted, sad

[coarse drift]

Might still be worth using but snowball will probably be a better choice

[ocean cliff]

Sturdy Dodger

[fast zephyr]

That’s Flammable, Doc!
– Now ignites enemies for 1 second (3 when stacked), down from 3 seconds (5 when stacked)

bro...

[cerulean cliff]

What about it

[fast zephyr]

i really hate mvs

[cerulean cliff]

That's worse for us

And will be used against us way more

[fast zephyr]

snowball will be a better choice not gonna lie

[cerulean cliff]

I guess so

[coarse drift]

Optimal is probably 5% snowball,collateral and pugilist

[visual tiger]

TnJ/Taz same perk loadout confirmed??

[cerulean cliff]

I use Last Stand since Weakened is still the best debuff in the game

But collateral has way more use cases now at least

[coarse drift]

Didn’t weakened get removed?

[cerulean cliff]

It got taken out of the characters' kits who could apply it by themselves

Shaggy, Batman, Taz, etc

Thank god

[visual tiger]

You know

I forget that Taz could apply weakened

[cerulean cliff]

He's a spin bot, especially in 2s so I dont blame you

[visual tiger]

my guy

he's my most played

[cerulean cliff]

And if you forgot his bite did that its because you had better moves to be using

Granted, it'll probably have a use case once shields become mainstream

[subtle lotus]

This got to be an joke

We got nothing

No combos no nothing

Atleast we are faster

Also no changes for wonder woman

[ocean cliff]

You got less than nothing because the Sturdy Dodger change will cook Jerry spam

[subtle lotus]

And agent smith

[ocean cliff]

People just need to have the presence of mind to make an alternate set with it on

[trim cave]

R i p

Cant believe we got nothing

[subtle lotus]

What is sturdy dodger?

[subtle lotus]

This character its simply dead

[ocean cliff]

Its changed from parry projectiles to dodging it, and you get armor for 2 seconds

[subtle lotus]

If we was bad at the meta last season now we are even worse

[ocean cliff]

and im assuming it works against heavy projectiles

[subtle lotus]

🫥

[cerulean cliff]

Parry was also just... bad

So y'know

Parry perks dont need to exist

[subtle lotus]

So now the character its dead?

[trim cave]

Nah they be hating the tnj community

[subtle lotus]

We got no compensation

No kill power

[cerulean cliff]

TnJ is exactly the same

[subtle lotus]

Worst disadvantage

No combos

[cerulean cliff]

We just lost a good perk

[subtle lotus]

The 2nd lightest character in the game

Killing them at 50%

Incredible

[cerulean cliff]

3rd lightest

PPG and Arya explode lol

[subtle lotus]

It doesn't matter we die really quick

[subtle lotus]

Arya is not ligther than T&J

[cerulean cliff]

She's been the lightest character in the game since early beta

That never changed

[subtle lotus]

That's gizmo

[trim cave]

I keep forgetting that cursing isnt allowed here

[subtle lotus]

Arya its the four plase

[cerulean cliff]

That MU is still hell so I have to know kill confirms for her

[trim cave]

Tnj still has a struggle for combos cuz there isnt any move that is free to use a combo without risks

[cerulean cliff]

And she is super light

[subtle lotus]

Arya has good kill confirms

[trim cave]

And theres gaps between the combos

[subtle lotus]

Not like this character

This character simply dont kill if you have more than 110%

[cerulean cliff]

I mean I have to know what kills her so she doesnt cheese me first

She is definitely lighter

[subtle lotus]

Down air into up air at 90%

[trim cave]

Yeah its either u get to a insane 150 fast through percise comboing that involved the cork mechanic or u use the jerry combo mechanic

Which only one of them is completely obsolete

[subtle lotus]

You need to stack 150 or 180 with projectiles

To kill

Down air could kill at 150 or 180

Or jab into d tilt

But now jab is not good on every character

And paddle its completely busted

If you got more than 105-110% you can di up air and side air after paddle last hit

[trim cave]

Yeah i mostly do a down grounded attack to get a fast hit or to combo off of

Sometimes jabbing if its too far

And thats only if u can get the hit

[cerulean cliff]

Business as usual fellas

Just run snowball instead instead of Flammable

[trim cave]

At least he doesnt get direct nerfs so that 10% could be a clutch

[trim cave]

Thats in the beta, this isnt the beta

We dont know if we ever gonna get the snowball efffect

[cerulean cliff]

I mean run it now

Flammable is useless now

Which is so sad, Ignite was not a problem

[trim cave]

W e c a n t r u n i t c u z i t d o e s n t e x i s t

[cerulean cliff]

Then speed force I dunno

The next best thing

Its open season now

That one helps us camp better anyway

Which is what the game direction seems to be encouraging

It is hilarious that they tried to buff static in the same patch that introduces short hopping

[ocean cliff]

What does static even do

[cerulean cliff]

You have to deliberately run and not jump for 4 seconds on the ground

Your next attack then stuns the enemy I believe

If you leave the ground for any reason, the timer resets

Including platforms

Which also means you cant use it on aerials

Bottom 1 perk

[fast zephyr]

guys

i think they withdraw us 1 combo

yeah

up tilt + up attack is no longer a combo

oh nvm

you can do it, but its kinda difficult now

[cerulean cliff]

Up tilt > up air you mean?

[fast zephyr]

yeah

i tried in some games

and its not the same as before

its kinda difficult to hit the last attack

also, i dont feel the speed buff lmao

[cerulean cliff]

Its way more DI dependent now compared to past versions

Because paddle lost jump cancel

If they DI in its practically free

[minor bluff]

Sliding while charging the racket is way easier and faster now, i guess that's nice

[coarse drift]

Do you really gotta start at bronze if you were master 1 last season

[ocean cliff]

c:

[fast zephyr]

i noticed that the fishing road is kinda strange

[minor bluff]

it feels the same to me

[fast zephyr]

its so unusefull in the air now

[minor bluff]

eh, i guess, since you fall faster now

[coarse drift]

I’m gonna stop for today my game crashed 4 times already 😶‍🌫️

[cerulean cliff]

Very rarely does it have an air use honestly

[fleet bronze]

I saw that down air's hit box got adjusted. Does that mean Down Air is no longer thta crazy disjointed move?

I'm doing stuff so anyone lmk. If down air got like a hit box change

[cerulean cliff]

TBD

[subtle lotus]

It was diable all this time

Its really situational

Also up tilt into side air can be di too

Depending on percents you can di any follow ups

Like up air and side air

And get hit by nothing

[unkempt sinew]

The new electric perk will count 4 "unique" non projectile attacks towards building a charge. The idea being to use physical melee attacks to start building it. The shock damage is 7% ontop of the projectile's regular damage.

Jerry counts as both a projectile AND a non-projectile attack. So if you use him mid combo or to start a combo it counts as 1 of the 4 unique attacks to charge it. He can then later apply the shock damage himself since he's still a projectile too.

The shock damage itself also counts as a "unique" non projectile attack, so it can start building 1 charge for a 3 hit melee combo after.

So you could for example, shock the enemy (1 charge), then do Jerry > Side attack > Up attack for the remaining 3 charged and have another shock ready again.

[cerulean cliff]

That is a step up from the old one at least

[unkempt sinew]

Yeah, it rewards being agro as hell instead of dancing around trying to stay grounded.

Tom's follow up side attacks all count as Unique attacks by the way.

So he can also just charge it by landing 4 of those lol

[subtle lotus]

This character its completely garbage

[unkempt sinew]

Skill issue

[subtle lotus]

Worst match up

Finn probably

[subtle lotus]

Ain't skill issue

[unkempt sinew]

Finn got nerfed lol

[subtle lotus]

You just got here

I play the character since s1

And i was top 20 T&J

Masters 1

On the last season

[unkempt sinew]

Still wrong

Lol

[subtle lotus]

I'm not wrong

You just don't play the character

[unkempt sinew]

They're my most played character

Stripe being second

[subtle lotus]

I think your on s1

Hahaha

The character got hella nerfed

His play rate it's really low

[unkempt sinew]

He did but he's still good

[subtle lotus]

They eliminated all our combos

They deleted all of his mix ups

His kill power its trash

He only kills with down air into up air

That can be di if your around 105%

So you cant confirm

[unkempt sinew]

Play rate doesn't equal how good a character is. Rashid in SF6 has a low play rate but is undoutbtedly top 1 right now.

Jigglypuff is debatably top 1 in Melee despite only one player consistently getting results with her.

[subtle lotus]

Paddle into up air or side air can be di at 105%

[unkempt sinew]

Play rate is a factor but ease of use plays into that too.

[subtle lotus]

Jerry can be one shot really easy with all the characters

He got the worst disadvantage in game

Hes the 3rd lighest character ig

Sometimes you die at 50

[unkempt sinew]

Puff is the lightest in Melee

[subtle lotus]

But he dont have puff kill power

And ledge trap

🤡

Is not comparable

They are completely different

Puff got good combos

Good kill confirms

We got no kill confirms

They are unconsistent

[unkempt sinew]

They don't sure, I'm not saying T&J are equivalents to Puff but they're still above average power wise

[subtle lotus]

Every kill it's unconsistent

[cerulean cliff]

If only his jabs all linked like jabs should

[unkempt sinew]

They're nowhere close to as bad as Velma

[subtle lotus]

No bro

[subtle lotus]

Yeah velma it's the first and T&J it's the second

[fast zephyr]

man, i hate this change

Air Side Special
~ Now limits fall speed during attack recovery

[unkempt sinew]

Delusional

[subtle lotus]

It was an bad move

[cerulean cliff]

Oh that'd do it

[fast zephyr]

imagine now

[unkempt sinew]

That implies Tom loses most matchups in the game which is just wrong.

[subtle lotus]

I'm not being delusional

You could understand what we are talking about if you play atleast 1 set in ranked with them

[unkempt sinew]

Most of the low tiers get cooked by projectiles so Tom's already bad for them

[cerulean cliff]

TnJ doesnt move anywhere in terms of viability

[subtle lotus]

Nope

[fast zephyr]

actually, i agree with Gogeta

he has a point

[subtle lotus]

You can just parry projectiles then get an armor

[cerulean cliff]

Until shields are mainstream anyway

[subtle lotus]

Also you can one shot jerry really easy

Also camping with him is not an good idea

[fast zephyr]

i hate playing tnj as camping

[subtle lotus]

With the move speed changes

[fast zephyr]

its so boring imo

[subtle lotus]

You can rush them really easy

[fast zephyr]

yeaah

[subtle lotus]

And they have no options

Up tilt got giga nerfed

[fast zephyr]

its been fun, but i really get used to my fish road movement

[subtle lotus]

If you lit just dodge the opposite direction in the air if they perform paddle

[fast zephyr]

i really miss it :/

[subtle lotus]

You can use the 20 frames of whiff to punish

[unkempt sinew]

Who tf is using paddle in neutral? 💀

[subtle lotus]

I'm talking as an anti air

If you read what i said

You would understand

[cerulean cliff]

Neutral is keepaway for the most part

[fast zephyr]

can you imagine

people are still complaining

[subtle lotus]

Nah

[fast zephyr]

and want to get it nerf it more

[subtle lotus]

Also the character lit kills at 150 and 180

And they didnt change anything

Seriously

And people still say he's at a tier

They don't play the character

And they are trash playing against him

[fast zephyr]

facts

[cerulean cliff]

Who even is top tier now though

[subtle lotus]

Prob agent smith and wonder woman

[fast zephyr]

i would say bugs bunny

[unkempt sinew]

Wonder Woman still

Lol

[cerulean cliff]

Bats lost weakened which was the entire point of the character

[fast zephyr]

totally

[subtle lotus]

The top tiers as always getting no nerfs

[fast zephyr]

bugs bunny is gonna be soo meta

[subtle lotus]

No

[unkempt sinew]

Batman got nerfed hard

[subtle lotus]

He got nerfed

[cerulean cliff]

WW never left top 5

Banana is still a cheese lord

[fast zephyr]

i heard he got buffed

what

lemme se

[unkempt sinew]

Bugs got some weird changes

[cerulean cliff]

Dynamite is random

[fast zephyr]

oh yeah

[subtle lotus]

Now he's basically an read character

[fast zephyr]

its kinda buff and kinda nerf

[subtle lotus]

Nope they nerf him

[cerulean cliff]

PPG might be entering the Top 5 convo

[subtle lotus]

His combos are not true now

But i like it

I love reading characters

I wish they take feedback from bugs to change T&J

Or just rework the character bc im tired of complains

[cerulean cliff]

Bugs up air lost kill power

[fast zephyr]

hopefully they make a change in mid patch

i really need the fishing road movement back

[subtle lotus]

Il just stop playing this character

His now bin tier with his fellow velma

[fast zephyr]

lmaoo

[subtle lotus]

People didn't know how to manage an special character like him

[fast zephyr]

I will not give them the pleasure

they can nerf the character

[subtle lotus]

They didn't take notes about his weaknesses

[fast zephyr]

but not the player

🗣️

[subtle lotus]

And focus on nerfing every strength on the character

[cerulean cliff]

I'm gonna give him a test run soon

[subtle lotus]

Without caring about how the character is

Void said it

The character was just b tier

Then they start nerfing him more and more

And now his just trash

[fast zephyr]

it doesnt matter

[subtle lotus]

Ik the character its really weird and different

[fast zephyr]

imo

just look hardcore

that guy really adapt to the nerfs and stuff

[subtle lotus]

But the fact that people didn't want to know about his weaknesses and kill him

Was really outrageous

[subtle lotus]

Hes not adapting

I think he's playing banana guard

[fast zephyr]

nonono

i just watched his stream

he like the new movement

[subtle lotus]

What new moveset?

His trash bro

He got some impossible mus

Also

Its lit about grinding and having no life

[fast zephyr]

movement

[cerulean cliff]

New movement is the Shorthops

[fast zephyr]

the fall speed

[subtle lotus]

The character ain't good

[unkempt sinew]

Movement as in the fastfall and shorthops

[subtle lotus]

Oh yeah that's so cool

[fast zephyr]

he is making new combos with the racquet

[subtle lotus]

I wish they add wavedash and grabs

[fast zephyr]

its kinda a buff in a way

[subtle lotus]

I think the combos start with racket?

Isn't it

[cerulean cliff]

We're not getting grabs

[subtle lotus]

Well atleast we got speed buff

[cerulean cliff]

Sad truth

[subtle lotus]

Grabs would be so good

[fast zephyr]

i really didnt feel it haha

i did feel the fastfall tho

i think its a very good thing for us

[subtle lotus]

Tbh if the character become the fastest in the game

That would compensate all of his current weaknesses

[fast zephyr]

meh

[subtle lotus]

Also having no combos and no kill confirm

But having an godspeed

[fast zephyr]

i would prefer new combos

[subtle lotus]

With this character will able you to do a lot of stuff

[subtle lotus]

We need those buffs

Also one kill confirm

Atleast one

Like an real kill confirm

[fast zephyr]

they should make the fishing road a kill confirm

idk how

[subtle lotus]

Fishing rod its garbage

You can just dodge the tip and that move got tons of endlag

[fast zephyr]

thats why they should make it better

[subtle lotus]

The longer that you extend it

[fast zephyr]

thats not how you use it

[subtle lotus]

The foe can just rushdown and punish you

I think il main raven

That character seems to be very saucy

[fast zephyr]

good choice

in a way is similar to tnj

[subtle lotus]

Yea

And she's a thousand times better than him

Il just wait for T&J buffs or an rework

[fast zephyr]

idk why they havent done anything yet

tnj is becoming boring to play since they nerf the paddle

and limit the attacks

it really looks like they want to kill this character

[subtle lotus]

They thought the character was as strong as the community was yapping for

But they just didn't know how to play against him

Recently I teach someone how to di T&J every kill confirm

And di paddle last hit into up air

He cant kill

[fast zephyr]

@wintry slate do something pls

[cerulean cliff]

@'ing him here isn't going to do that much

[fast zephyr]

i was joking haha

[cerulean cliff]

Damn they really with their whole chest said buff the one move Jake was overreliant on that people hated since beta

[wild spruce]

ts borderline unplayable tnj ain’t hitting anything😭

[cerulean cliff]

He feels the exact same to me

Which doesn't really inspire confidence

[wild spruce]

idk if it’s just me but his hitboxes just whiff everything

[cerulean cliff]

Jab never worked correctly to start

But he got the universal hitbox nerfs on other attacks too

[wild spruce]

true but dair and up air keep whiffing for me

plus tennis racket

[cerulean cliff]

They lost their disjoints

[wild spruce]

ohhh

also every character except jason getting their moves off faster😭😭😭

[fast zephyr]

its gotta be you bro

i feel tnj better than ever

just the fishing road issue

[coarse drift]

It feels strange but I’m liking the new speed

[cerulean cliff]

Meh

[odd wadi]

character never gonna get buffed idk what they're on. Still one of the best characters in the game just don't have loops anymore

[cerulean cliff]

I wouldn't say best in the game, they're alright

especially with Sturdy perk now

[wintry slate]

[winged viper]

please check dms if you can, it's urgent

[dusty nova]

Naw dawg not loops 💀 nor is he the best. Batman Exsists

[dusty nova]

Is it just me or is raven easy as balls to play and takes.no skill

Is immediately best ledge guard assist in the game a
Add like 3 undodgable kill combos I just experienced

They are quite easy.Also , ladder combos that actually kill at low percent

It's like a easier aria

[sturdy yarrow]

Tom is bottom tier

[cyan whale]

So did they actually fix jab? Is it actually consistent now?

[hidden verge]

SHORT HOPS PLUS COLLATERAL BUFF TOM IS EATING GOOD

[raven onyx]

Now we just we need more kill power for TnJ

[odd wadi]

That's why I said one of the best. They're a fairly balanced character. Only thing left to gut is jerry shot and if they nerf that then they'll probably be pretty bad. Can't stand Batman though

[cyan whale]

I’m sorry but T&J is not one of the best

He has far too many inconsistencies (idk if they addressed them properly this patch or not)

And the general movement speed increases only serve to make it easier to navigate his zoning

His issue is that he has no consistent kill confirm unlike the majority of the cast

So he needs to land a stray hit to kill at like 140

Or hope you DI incorrectly so he can kill at like 110

[lean haven]

How does Tom and Jerry feels now =0?

[cerulean cliff]

He's roughly the same

Just drop Flammable for something else

[subtle lotus]

He kills at 150 and 180, and he dies at 50

[subtle lotus]

Theres no way you kill at 110

The only percents to kill with him are

80-100

Then you got no chances

To kill

Also they eliminated every combo route for him

His the 3rd lightest character in the game

And he got the worst disadvantage with no jerry

Incredible they made this character an f tier

Congrats for PFG

Il really love hating the game

Also keeping the top tiers as it was

Wonder woman, Agent Smith

You got to be joking

This game its an joke

[fast zephyr]

actually

you can kill at 70

with a down air in some maps

[subtle lotus]

Without counting down air

Hes super unconsistent

Most of the time you just kill at 150 or 180

Also having no combos don't improves the fact that we have no kill power

And the worst disadvantage

[coarse drift]

“Ignore the move that can kill please”

[subtle lotus]

Bro he's super unconsitent to kill

Its really hard

Most of the time you will kill at 150 or 180

[wild spruce]

he’s not wrong

[subtle lotus]

Its really hard to hit an up special

Theres no consistency on this character

Theres no combos

[odd wadi]

I don't have any of these issues to a degree that really matters to me. Maybe use racket more? It kills pretty nicely or sets up for other things you can use.

[subtle lotus]

Only projectiles

[subtle lotus]

Racket is not an viable option

[wild spruce]

racket is too slow

[subtle lotus]

Its really slow and reactable

Its one of the worst things you can do

I got masters 1 with him last season

[wild spruce]

tnj really doesn’t have good kill power

[subtle lotus]

Hes an campy projectile zoner with the worst kill power

[odd wadi]

I use it as one of my main combo tools since they buffed it

[wild spruce]

i applaud u ts was impossible

[subtle lotus]

That's horrible

[wild spruce]

i made it to silver 1

[subtle lotus]

I got masters 1

[odd wadi]

I got masters 5 😂

[subtle lotus]

Playing every match an grandmaster

[odd wadi]

Wait no my bad diamond 5

[wild spruce]

no idea how u did that w tom n jerry

[subtle lotus]

Also played lonelydripp like 20 times

Worst time of my life

[odd wadi]

I mix diamond and masters up a lot

[wild spruce]

fkn impossible

[subtle lotus]

Yep

I faced top 1 arya

[wild spruce]

combo strings are non existent now

[subtle lotus]

Top 1 IG

[coarse drift]

I don’t know about 1s but racket is super good in 2s for robbing people

I also reached master 1

[odd wadi]

Who dis?

[wild spruce]

i’m switching my main to arya now

[subtle lotus]

The top 2 on ranked on season 2

[wild spruce]

tnj got horrible

[odd wadi]

Its good in 1s too

[subtle lotus]

And top 1 ig

[subtle lotus]

Yep

I main him since season 1

[wild spruce]

same

[subtle lotus]

This its horrible

I was really competitive on this game

And I got experience from other platform figthers

Reaching to masters 1 was difficult with this f tier

But it waesnt completely impossible

I think i got lucky

Bc I didnt got matchmaked against the impossible mu's

[odd wadi]

They're not F tier though. You'd likely not be masters 1 with them if they were F tier

[subtle lotus]

That's not an point

Hes f tier

I got masters 1 bc i was dedicated to get it

[odd wadi]

Definitely doable F tier or not but I don't think you'd truly commit like that if they were

The lowest id throw T&J is C tier if I'm being generous to the "T& J bad crowd" but A or B tier

[subtle lotus]

T&j its completely f tier now

Even velma could be better than him now

Atleast velma doesn't struggle to kill like him

[odd wadi]

Considering nobody is playing Velma imma doubt that one.

[subtle lotus]

Theres none character like him on disadvantage

[subtle lotus]

Low playrate doesn't mean it's bad

This character got low playrate and it's bad

But good character can also have low playrate

Like min min in smash ultimate

Or corrin

[odd wadi]

But if I'm gonna look at it more from your perspective. You're fighting people who really know their stuff so it's hard when you don't have super consistent or guaranteed combos.

[subtle lotus]

If the opponent knows how to play against him

[odd wadi]

Yeah but it still has to say something. The character doesn't feel good to play or something

[subtle lotus]

Its lit one of the most difficult fights you could have in an fighting game

No character struggles like him against good people

[subtle lotus]

Yes ofc he dont feel good

[odd wadi]

This can apply to everyone though

[odd wadi]

Velma not Tom

[subtle lotus]

He feels the same

He got gigs nerfed

Idk if they will buff him

But his bottom 2 with velma

And nobody its complaining

Everybody hates the character

And just remember the bad time they had fighting him

When he was top tier

[odd wadi]

You're wild but they're not gonna buff this character 👀 if you ask me anyway. If they buff anything it'll be something super slight.

[subtle lotus]

I'm not being wild

I can just explain you why he's bottom 2

And you could easily understand why

[odd wadi]

I don't blame them honestly. Getting looped wasn't fun

[subtle lotus]

Ik it waesnt

But even if they eliminated loops

They still continue complaining

Until we got here

On the current state

Bin tier

[odd wadi]

They never truly got rid of them until now

[subtle lotus]

Yep

[odd wadi]

No more jump cancel no more other specials

[subtle lotus]

🫤

[subtle lotus]

No more combos

No more anything

They ensure on making the character as bad as possible

With no compensations

[odd wadi]

I disagree but I've spent tons of time not using the jump cancel and loops so it's nothing new for me

[subtle lotus]

You disagree in what buddy?

[odd wadi]

Trap, pole, and rocket are my friends

[subtle lotus]

I think you just don't play the character

[odd wadi]

The no combos part my bad

[subtle lotus]

What is pole?

[odd wadi]

Fishing pole

[subtle lotus]

Bruh its lit true

They got rid of it

[subtle lotus]

That's horrible

Got horrible frame data and while your releasing it you can just rush down and punish

Got ton of endlag after releasing the move

[odd wadi]

That's your problem right there it's not horrible you just need to know when and how to use it.

[subtle lotus]

Also it's super hard to hit and hardly ever kills

[subtle lotus]

Ik how to use it and its so unconsitent and not good

[odd wadi]

Tells me all I need to know. It kills as low as 80

[subtle lotus]

Your enemy can just rush down and thats all

Your vulnerable while your doing it

[odd wadi]

I've already had this argument with someone here

[subtle lotus]

You can di

[odd wadi]

Yes but don't use it when they can do that

[subtle lotus]

It doesn't kill thst early

[odd wadi]

You want me to link you the video 😂

[subtle lotus]

Aka almost nothing

[subtle lotus]

Maybe an season 2 video

Bruh

Your opponent has to be really low rank

To get killed by that

I play against pro players

Theres no window to use that

[odd wadi]

They haven't nerfed fishing pole like ever

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1009538859417215147/1278500780495601736/fishing_pole_kills.mp4?ex=6735e2e3&is=67349163&hm=827e9b5bbd658daa9a1c6513e6ad1f8e90bdd14a2da6013e6e4f30ffb58b7dd7&

[subtle lotus]

Ik

But is not an good move to use anyway

[subtle lotus]

You can just rush down while his doing it

Its lit so easy

To dodge and rush down

[fast zephyr]

Racket is one of the best moves

[subtle lotus]

Theres no point on using that move

[odd wadi]

Then throw it down in front of you

[subtle lotus]

One of his best and hardest to hot

[fast zephyr]

nah

[odd wadi]

Not hard to hit

[subtle lotus]

That ain't an good idea

[fast zephyr]

its pretty easy actually

[subtle lotus]

Is not bruh

Its an slow move

And easy to react

You won't do that on neutral

[fast zephyr]

i hit number 4 tnj in the world

[subtle lotus]

That's simply stupid

[odd wadi]

I do all the time

As a starter or in combos

[subtle lotus]

You can just dodge it

That's all

[subtle lotus]

Maybe on current season idk

[odd wadi]

Like all the other moves in the game