Tom And Jerry

[raven onyx]

Mentally

Like i want to enjoy this game but deep down i cant

[naive pebble]

Kinda extreme but ok

[raven onyx]

Im just burnt out man

[trim zealot]

Great. Instead of buffing the characters who are worse off, nerf the characters who are better off. (That’s sarcasm) I’m not saying to give Jason or other heavies “get out of combo free cards”, but complaining about other characters being good usually results in sizeable nerfs, which means those characters become less fun to play as. By buffing other characters to the level of A-S tiers, all characters eventually result in being fun to play while not being overpowered. “If everyone’s super, no one will be”.

I don’t want what happened to paddle to happen to other moves, or for other characters to end up in the dumpster as a result of nerfs.

I’m still going to send that video btw. Probably going to have to DM a google drive link because I don’t have discord premium though.

[naive pebble]

I won't be happy until the loop is removed from the game and it really doesn't matter what anyone says at this point because I've experienced it repeatedly

I'm a master player and I can't escape the loop. The average player will experience it and just quit the game.

If something is poison for the growth of the game it should be removed at all costs.

I rather just have it removed now and people think I'm a loser complainer rather than see the game in a few months have an even smaller community because of the loop.

The privilege of saying I told you so is not worth it.

[raven onyx]

Theirs much more threats to MVS than TnJ ya know

[dusty nova]

Tom's fishing pole not fishing polin #clips

[trim zealot]

If you’re a “master” then it should be a simple task to avoid ONE MOVE.

[raven onyx]

They cant comprend that

[trim zealot]

Or predict it then parry.

So, after testing it specifically on Jason, it is difficult to escape, but not impossible. That and it is pretty difficult to perform on Tom’s part.

[sturdy yarrow]

Stop. Being. Predictable. With. Your. Techs

[dusty nova]

Felt

[trim zealot]

What does that mean?

I know what the word felt means, but what do you mean?

[dusty nova]

Jason things

[trim zealot]

Oh, you play(ed) them?

This is off topic, but since I just saw it, the latest tweet mentioning a “combat overhaul” gives me hope that old attack decay is returning and hopefully they ditch the auto-tech.

[lost violet]

Loops have been removed. You’re just too stupid to learn the matchup and need T and J as your scapegoat

[lost violet]

“I’m a master player that constantly falls for the same move every time so I’m gonna come here and complain about it because it couldn’t possibly be my fault”

[raven onyx]

I just hope they fix this "Jabversus"

[trim zealot]

I don’t have a problem with jab being the one universal combo tool on all characters, but I do think it should be toned down a bit on some characters. Tom’s jab feels well balanced. It combos but has adequate endlag to punish it if the opponent is close enough. Other characters like Batman’s and Samurai Jack’s are both super safe and hit full combos. Although, Jack’s is only “safe” because of the range on it. Batman’s is because of how fast it is.

[raven onyx]

Its just annoys my that people can fall out of Toms jab

[trim zealot]

I think that’s because of weird knockback angles. I’ve noticed opponents only fall out of it if I hit Jab 1 too close, or too far from them.

That’s just another reason why so many people prefer to primarily use up tilt though.

[raven onyx]

I just hope TnJ get buffed next patch

[trim zealot]

I’m holding out that the latest up tilt change gets reverted. If even Void didn’t think well of it, the devs should listen.

[raven onyx]

And more Jerry health or ami wrong

[trim zealot]

I think it’s fine as is, but if Jerry health was buffed, I’d expect a cooldown nerf. Issues might also appear in 2s since Jerry automatically gets more health when he latches onto a teamate.

[raven onyx]

What about 1s

[trim zealot]

In 1s the change would probably be ok if it only made it so some moves didn’t 1 shot Jerry. But just enough of a boost to make that happen, no more.

[raven onyx]

More combo strings?

[trim zealot]

Or some sort of healthgate where Jerry cannot be one shot if his health is above X%

[trim zealot]

Depends on what other changes are made, or if the “combat overhaul” applies to combos somehow.

[raven onyx]

I think it links to that tbh

[trim zealot]

Probably.

[raven onyx]

I just want TnJ better (not OP

[trim zealot]

We weren’t last patch in my opinion, and I even thought so the patch before that. But I’ll admit I was a little biased because the loops were fun as.

Once they were removed, there were no legit reasons to complain about fighting against Tom.

[raven onyx]

And we still get hate its a loop

[trim zealot]

Unfortunately I think Tom is just “that character” now. The one where even if they aren’t unbalanced, people will complain just because they dislike projectiles and/or combos.

It sucks because they are by far the most unique projectile character I’ve ever seen in any fighting game. Instead of having a bunch of projectiles, they interact differently or change depending on whether or not Jerry (a projectile beacon) is out or not.

[raven onyx]

Well i just hope their gonna not gut TnJ anymore

[trim zealot]

Same here. I’d hope PFG learned their lesson after 3 times that this has happened.

[raven onyx]

And actually focus on the actual threats

[raven onyx]

Im just hope they dont listen to the hate

For TnJ

[trim zealot]

I don’t think they will next patch. T&J win rate, k/d, and usage have dropped significantly since the latest nerf. They used to be in B tier on tracker.gg, but after the changes most everything on them has dropped, and they are now in low C tier.

[raven onyx]

Ive seen people on Reddit but TnJ in S Tier

[trim zealot]

I’m not surprised. Maybe before and even after the loops were removed, but after the latest patch, definitely not. Losing most of their true combos has to knock them down significantly.

I hope those tier lists are outdated.

If people still think Tom is S tier, they need to try playing him now.

[raven onyx]

No it was like Season 3

I cant find them anywhere now

[naive pebble]

You can combo into paddle from multiple moves so that's not easily done.

Just some tips on a character I don't play.

[trim zealot]

No, only Jerry shot at very close range, while in the air, or from up tilt.

[naive pebble]

Ok so I put that into Google translate and it said "I am a garbage player do not listen to me"

[trim zealot]

That’s a bad argument.

[naive pebble]

I put that into Google translate and it said the same thing so idk.

I'm exhausted arguing with players who suck all day. Like fr yall are carried and would kill this game if you were the balancing team

[trim zealot]

You wouldn’t know how good I am at the game. But even if I am bad, so what? It doesn’t invalidate that I know the available combo routes Tom has.

Your claim that it can start from “multiple moves” is false if you meant more than 2.

[naive pebble]

Not everyone who's a good player is good at game balance but honestly you sound like you don't knoe anything about either

I don't want to hear advice like "don't get hit" that's stupid

[trim zealot]

I certainly wouldn’t make a good game dev, but asking questions rather than just complaining about a character or their moves is far more productive.

[naive pebble]

I promise you I'm not reading that

You already proved that you add nothing to this convo already so many times I deadass don't care anymore. You make me have to explain the same thing over and over and it sucks ass. I'm tired of it.

If you can't understand the loop it's on you at this point.

I'm not even gonna respond to your next one

[trim zealot]

It’s better to look for possible solutions before generally complaining. If you have a problem with Tom, then at least propose a better solution than “just nerf them lol”.

[trim zealot]

I used to perform loops when they were in the game.

A lot.

[naive pebble]

don't ping. I'm blocking if you do it again

[trim zealot]

I didn’t ping you.

[naive pebble]

the reply pings

[trim zealot]

Why shouldn’t I? If I’m responding to a specific message I’d like to clarify which one.

[naive pebble]

If your previous messages were all great I would have no problem talking to you. But you're trying to tell me to "just avoid the move" like that's practically to do every game.

It proves you dunno what you're talking about and it would be fine if you weren't making trash takes like this literally all day.

[trim zealot]

There’s the option of dodging and parrying. If you’re as good as you claim to be, that shouldn’t be an issue for you.

[naive pebble]

Best case scenario is that you're just not good at the game.

Worst case is that you're a liar who's spreading misinfo that's gonna hurt the game just cause you wanna be carried by a bs loop.

idk which one I just assume the best and I'm going to ignore from this point on.

[trim zealot]

I’m not carried by loops anymore, if I ever was. Anytime I play a Jason I don’t loop them, through I do still win most times.

[naive pebble]

yeah this just sounds like someone who doesn't really play the game that much just don't have arguments like this please.

Being good at the game doesn't mean I can avoid whatever I choose that's not possible for literally anyone.

[trim zealot]

I’ve practiced in the lab a bit and it’s promising with how difficult it is for Jason to escape, but not impossible.

[naive pebble]

how are you practicing, 2 controllers at once?

[trim zealot]

I set the bot to random di and dodge after hitstun, with hitstun combo counter on.

[naive pebble]

you're doing the combo and the escape at the same time or are you doing tom standing still doing up smash while you try to di.

Ok you have to be lying or doing it wrong it's literally a true combo

[trim zealot]

The bot DIs on its own, it depends on which direction it’s set to dodge after hitstun.

[naive pebble]

Alright you can't do it, it's all good. Please don't hold the game back cause you can't do it tho you're going to hurt the game in the long run

[trim zealot]

You can’t claim it’s true because you’re the only person who’s saying it. Record it, give me some evidence so I can believe your claims.

[naive pebble]

⬆️

He's on twitch

[trim zealot]

That might not prove that it’s true. The enemy could not be dodging or adding variety to techs.

I need a hitstun combo counter and video.

But I may watch them anyway. If they are a good Tom player I might enjoy it, so thanks for the recommendation.

[lost violet]

Saw a match. Also saw paddle into Jerry shot quite a few times. That’s the so called loop right?

If that’s what he’s talking about, I saw an equal amount of times that loop was cancelled just by dodging

So he did a lot of yapping to cover him not being as good as he’s been saying he is

It takes a special kind of delusion to not play the character, not be able to get out of a combo and still act he’s right just because he alone can’t be do it

[trim zealot]

I think the complaints are specifically because they play Jason, and probably lose to Tom more often than other characters.

[lost violet]

That happens with any character wide enough for Tom to be a problem, though Jason’s one of them that can still dodge out of it

[trim zealot]

I’m surprised we got a Jason player complaining before an iron giant.

[keen swan]

Iron Giant probably one shots Jerry with every single one of his moves

Those mfs don’t care about that rat lol

[lost violet]

Also they pretty much expect getting hit by every move in existence. It comes with the size

[trim zealot]

It should be the same for Jason, just to a lesser extent.

[lost violet]

They’re both tanky enough for it to not matter too much and of the two, Jason is still small enough to just dodge out of it

[trim zealot]

I agree. That’s part of why I don’t think many of Checkboi’s arguments make sense.

That and lack of actual evidence.

[lost violet]

He didn’t show evidence because he was afraid his complaints would fall flat the second he shows it

And it took me looking at hardcorefox’s matches for them to do that anyway

[trim zealot]

I just saw some as well, and yeah, most of those “combos” aren’t true, just the opponent not mashing dodge or mixing up techs. They are a good player, but they don’t really cash in on hits with true combos very often.

[naive pebble]

Yo try post a video or even a picture into this chat

I can't do it. So I sent a link to someone who can do the loop consistently and JV4 stock people with the loop so....

Dunno what evidence you need at this point.

Bunch of garbage ass players still making the same dead points because they can't do something that isn't even that hard.

yall can't be this ass save some ass for the rest of the community please

[trim zealot]

Send a google drive link In DMs to whoever you want to see it. Discord won’t let you send anything over a few hundred MB without premium.

I don’t need to see it anymore though. I’ve watched hardcorefoxttv and, like I said before, it’s not true. Sure they’re good, but it’s not a true combo, people dodge out of it or accidentally parry all the time.

[naive pebble]

It's not true on every character but some characters it is true on.

btw you've never seen someone parry it if it's been done correctly because there's a built in neutral dodge lockout so that people can't mash it when they're being hit and get a parry when someone is slightly off.

[trim zealot]

Then hardcorefoxttv, one of the best T&Js I’ve seen, can’t do it correctly, and if you claim to be able to, I’m inclined to not believe you since you don’t even play Tom.

[naive pebble]

Show a clip of someone parrying out of the combo. btw what I said is universal it was talked about in enter the multiversus for season 2

I'm going to block you I think you're lying at this point.

[subtle lotus]

The combo its unconsitent

At low percents

Its true with correct di read

You can perform the combo twice

But if your like at mid or high damage

You can perform the first paddle into jerry shot

But then there's no follow up

You can di, to get super far away

And if you connect the paddle

The second jerry shot won't be true

Bc of the attack decay

So you got to use racket

Plus racket its super unconsitent

And you can di to avoid getting hit

Also this its universal

All characters can di the paddle into jerry shot

Its at like 20+

If you di up and mash up dodge

Even if the T&J gets the first paddle into down angle jerry

He wont get the second one

So you can down air on whiff

Or if your close the ground

Punish him with an combo

[naive pebble]

when the game dies I'll say I told you so. Let's just leave it at that.

[raven onyx]

Theres alot more threats to MVS than a cat and mouse

[cyan whale]

There are, but personally I’m not a fan of characters having like one or maybe two overcentralizing moves that they rely on heavily

T&J players don’t want to admit it, but paddle is a problem. It’s too good relative to the rest of his kit and same with Jerry shot

But at least Jerry shot has nuance

Letting Jerry die leaves you defenseless

Jerry will hit back tennis balls

Jerry shoots out corks

Paddle is just an objectively overtuned combo tool

Its sole purpose the way most T&J players play is to loop

Which is unhealthy

I’d honestly be in favor of them completely removing the paddle cancel entirely and then buffing the other aspects of T&J’s kit to compensate

Like for starters, make his jab actually reliably connect

Buff dynamite to be a better combo tool

Improve the on-hit cancel window of dair

Reduce the cooldown of the cheese mousetrap so he can setup more often

You could even rework paddle to have the final hit deal lower base knockback to get better low percent combos and then have it be a 50-50 into uair or sair at high percents for kills

Just no paddle into downwards Jerry shot loops

How much cooler would it be if you could get something like jab -> paddle -> dair (into the ground) -> Jerry shot -> tech chase with dodge sair

Or like dair -> dynamite-> dair -> tech chase

[trim zealot]

Dynamite is already a perfectly fine combo tool. You just have to be nearby, which isn’t a problem given you should play around it when it’s out. I also disagree with nerfing paddle so it’s not a combo tool at all. More often than not, when I haven’t canceled paddle, I’ve been punished for doing so. It has to be a combo tool to be safe. Also, if a move is overused, it should be easy to predict, then parry/dodge it. Tom’s paddle is one of the few moves where if you dodge 1 hit, it disables the next, giving a brief window to punish if dodged. If up tilt is over centralized, buff other moves to be just as good, but don’t nerf it.

[cyan whale]

For this I should specify I specifically mean paddle final hit into jump dair while hitting the higher hitbox of dair so that you can’t just Jerry shot

[trim zealot]

That can only combo into Fair after the Jerry shot. It’s a small combo that isn’t really that problematic.

[cyan whale]

Ok, so buff paddle final hit to combo better and remove the cancel for the multihits

[trim zealot]

Can you clarify?

I’m confused.

[cyan whale]

The final hit of paddle that launches up and away

Make that combo better at low percents

And give a 50-50 kill confirm at high percents

[trim zealot]

How is that any different than cancelling it on previous hits?

[cyan whale]

Remove the ability to cancel paddle at all before the final hit

[naive pebble]

That person is going to make you explain things in circles and never be happy with what you say btw

[cyan whale]

Uncharged paddle has 4 hits, 3 that keep you in the paddle and the 4th that launches away

[naive pebble]

5* and 4*

[cyan whale]

Make it so you can’t cancel the move on hit until after the 4th hit

[trim zealot]

No. I don’t listen to you and argue more often because your arguments aren’t constructive at all. Give actual feedback/criticism with evidence, then I’ll treat your arguments with respect.

[cyan whale]

Oh right I forgot about the initial hit

Initial hit -> 3 multihits -> final hit

Make it so you can’t cancel until after the final hit

Currently, T&J can cancel during any of the multihits with grounded moves including Jerry shot

[trim zealot]

I don’t see how buffing the final hit to combo wouldn’t be a straight buff. It still combos while having the ability to deal more damage by actually landing all the hits of up tilt.

[cyan whale]

It’s a buff to general combos

And a nerf/removal of the paddle Jerry shot loop/tech chase

[trim zealot]

It’s not true, btw. I just have to emphasize that.

[cyan whale]

Except it is

But you can argue however you want and it doesn’t change anything

Paddle into Jerry shot is an overcentralizing part of T&J’s current gameplan

And it’s not healthy

[trim zealot]

How do you manage to make it true? I’ve watched hardcorefoxttv and they often have people dodging out of it.

[naive pebble]

yes because you're a bad player who can't do the combo. Just have to clarify.

[trim zealot]

No evidence, bad argument.

[trim zealot]

I do agree we should have other combo tools and starters, but jab isn’t doing the trick because atm, it doesn’t lead into anything good, not without expending dodge meter anyway.

[naive pebble]

Your talking points are evidence you dunno what you're talking about so yeah.

Evidence.zip

[trim zealot]

I’m open to other moves becoming combo tools.

[trim zealot]

No evidence for that claim. The only claims I’m making is that yours have none, especially these last 2. My talking points are meant to be productive and start conversations on how to better balance this character, rather than borderline ragebait like you’ve been doing.

That’s not constructive.

[naive pebble]

Lol cope!

Your whole chat log has been ragebait cause you say things that are innocent so confidently

[lost violet]

Pot calling the kettle black

But ok

[naive pebble]

Just because you say the loop doesn't exist doesn't mean it undoes the matches were I was getting looped over and over again and couldn't escape it

[trim zealot]

How has it been ragebait? I ask people to clarify, and I propose solutions that could be workshopped via conversation. Mind you I’m being pretty civil about it, unlike you.

[naive pebble]

That's ragebait

[lost violet]

You don't know what ragebait means do you?

[trim zealot]

You constantly poke at other peoples skill like that’s part of the conversation. I don’t get how you think it’s productive to assume such a thing, then be so aggressive about it too.

I’ve never once poked at anyone’s skill.

Not even yours.

I’d like to assume you are good at the game, even though these arguments are making it difficult, but I won’t claim to know anything about your skill.

[naive pebble]

You don't ask people to clarify.

You tell people that they're wrong and that what they just experienced they could have escaped from and then when they tell you for the 100th time how the loop works and why it can't be escaped from then you ask them to clarify when they just explained it all to you

[trim zealot]

Give me evidence. All the evidence I’ve seen points to the combo being not true. If there is a loop that’s 100% true, i’d agree it would be a problem.

[naive pebble]

I get exhausted explaining how the loop works so I do resort to ignoring your repetitive questions that I've already answered 100 times

it's true on certain characters

Listen this time please.

[trim zealot]

Send a google drive link to a video.

Words can’t prove it.

[trim zealot]

Or a twitch clip of someone in the lab, with combo counter and dodge after hitstun on.

[raven onyx]

Literally a "Trust me bro" ahh

[naive pebble]

Paddle, side b diagonally down to the floor, up smash, pick up Jerry repeat.

2nd time around you do the same thing but you tech chase while you are moving with up smash which you can do on reaction.

That's the loop

[lost violet]

I've seen that exact thing and every time it was stopped by dodging

[naive pebble]

Doesn't work on every character. But it works on certain characters like, Jack, Shaggy, IG, Jason, Superman, etc.

[trim zealot]

Then show me, record it with all the combo rules in training on, then send the video through a google drive link (discord is dumb and limits videos to MB which isn’t enough for an MVS clip).

You seem to understand this supposed combo well, so it shouldn’t be difficult for you to perform.

[naive pebble]

I showed you the guy who does it on stream.

And then you said "well I seen him drop it so it must be untrue"

Just because a combo can be dropped doesn't mean it's not a true combo, and you didn't specify who he dropped it against, it might have been a character who can escape for all I know.

[raven onyx]

Your just saying "Trust me Bro"

[lost violet]

And just because you can't get out of it doesn't mean it's 100% true

[naive pebble]

So a link to someone doing it on stream is "trust me bro"

[trim zealot]

All the evidence I’ve seen says it’s not true. Prove me wrong yourself since you seem so passionate about this.

[naive pebble]

ok morons, this is why I stopped arguing with you guys. waste of time.

[raven onyx]

That was prob on No DI

[lost violet]

In your case yes. I saw those streams and they show it wasn't true. At all

[trim zealot]

If even an experienced Tom player can’t make it true, then it probably isn’t.

[naive pebble]

Who did he drop it against?

[trim zealot]

Everyone.

[lost violet]

Better question is who didn't he drop it against

[trim zealot]

Not literally, but pretty much all opponents at some point in the match.

[naive pebble]

Ok show a clip of him dropping it against samurai jack

[lost violet]

You pointed us to the streams how do you think we know this?

[trim zealot]

Working on it. Twitch has ads like you wouldn’t believe. 3 each break, each up to a minute long.

[naive pebble]

Idk if you guys play smash bros but Kazuya can 0 to death and that's a proven fact.

what you guys are doing is trying to say that a top player messed it up so it can't be true.

That is dumb

[raven onyx]

Any experienced TnJ can prove it

[naive pebble]

That player got the 0 to death on me multiple times that's how I know he streams because I played against him.

if I'm master level and can't escape multiple times then it is a true combo.

[raven onyx]

Mate if you cant get out of a untrue loop go down to gold

[lost violet]

No you just didn't bother dodging out of it, when everyone but you somehow has

[naive pebble]

I did try.

[lost violet]

I doubt that

[naive pebble]

and no not everyone but me has.

Will what rank are you?

Exactly. Now sit down

[lost violet]

That's supposed to prove what exactly?

[raven onyx]

Your judging someone on their rank😂

[naive pebble]

How good you are, since you wanna judge me

[naive pebble]

What else can I judge on? Battlepass level?

[lost violet]

My rank would only feed your dwindling ego "master player"

[raven onyx]

Thats no difference

[naive pebble]

Ok so I'm guessing you can't make it far in ranked so to you it means nothing.

good cope I guess

[raven onyx]

Mate i got Diamond with Bugs and Plat with TnJ

Last Season

[lost violet]

And yet you no life the game and can't get out of an untrue combo. It doesn't matter nearly as much as you think

[naive pebble]

I thought that didn't mean anything

[lost violet]

It matters more to you than it does to me. You're the one who brought up ranks in the first place

[raven onyx]

It doesn't at all. your ego is like a bronze player

[naive pebble]

I do like the game and want it to be good but people like you who dunno what you're talking about do hold it down

[lost violet]

You've confidently been acting like you know this character and a supposed "broken loop" for days. You haven't known what you were talking about since you first started complaining

[naive pebble]

Will flexs that he doesn't play the game and at the same time wants to be the judge, jury and executioner on how the game is balanced.

Yep typical dumbass

[raven onyx]

Rich coming from you

[naive pebble]

You used that one already get some better material bud

[raven onyx]

Your the one crying about a untrue loop

[lost violet]

No that's you. Me and other people just debunk your baseless complaints

[trim zealot]

They also haven’t bothered to back any of it up in the lab themselves. In addition to clearly not playing T&J in any capacity. Still working on that clip btw, I have one of it failing on beetlejuice, but no Jacks yet.

[naive pebble]

it is true but you suck so can't do it. Not my fault

[trim zealot]

If it’s so easy, do it yourself, master rank player.

[naive pebble]

I showed someone who can do it so. I don't have anything left to prove

[raven onyx]

... i got diamond last season with Bugs

[naive pebble]

I thought rank doesn't matter?

[trim zealot]

I never said that.

[raven onyx]

Your the one talking trash

[naive pebble]

Will I blocked you and stopped reading your messages just so you know

[trim zealot]

They were probably being even more civil than me, wow.

[raven onyx]

Sensitive

[lost violet]

I know right?

[trim zealot]

Will says “I know right?”

[naive pebble]

I value my time. I'm not arguing with people who say I don't have a life then proceed to argue over a game they flex that they don't even care about

[lost violet]

That's exactly what you've done for days now

[trim zealot]

I wouldn’t be here if I didn’t care about this game.

None of us would be.

[raven onyx]

Your wasting our time plus we wouldn't be here if we didnt care

[naive pebble]

Like if you're to cool for this argument then ok. I'm not gonna listen to you then homie lol

[lost violet]

You haven't been listening anyway

[naive pebble]

You would be. Because the loop actually is true on certain characters

[raven onyx]

ITS NOT TRUE GET GOOD AND STOP BEING SENSITIVE TO A CAT AND MOUSE

[naive pebble]

You are either scared this will get your character nerfed or you're scared the loop will be removed and it won't be abusable anymore

[trim zealot]

Be here If they didn’t care, or wasting their time? Because only the second one could be true, seeing how it’s like talking to a wall with you here.

[naive pebble]

It is true

[raven onyx]

Its not

[naive pebble]

Keep saying it's not true all you want, it's definitely true on Samurai Jack I have experienced it too many times and tried every way to escape that I can.

[lost violet]

To you. Because apparently you can't be bothered to dodge or parry it like everyone outside of you did

[raven onyx]

His Dodge meter is collecting dust

[naive pebble]

Yall brains are collecting dust

[trim zealot]

Then send a clip with proof that you are mashing dodge.

[lost violet]

And now we're projecting

[raven onyx]

Now just resorting to insults this is pathetic

[naive pebble]

[trim zealot]

They have been resorting to insulting random people’s skill/ranks, as if they know what ranks we are, or how skilled we are.

[raven onyx]

They make Bronze players look good

[lost violet]

He even blocked me like that was supposed to prove anything

[naive pebble]

[raven onyx]

Whats that supposed to mean

[trim zealot]

They threatened to block me before. I don’t think blocking you was warranted at all, given how much more civil you were being than myself.

[naive pebble]

I'm wondering why you're crying over insults while you're also using insults

I guess you're salty that my insults are actually funny

[trim zealot]

You cannot see us, how would you know we are crying?

[raven onyx]

You blocked will for being right

[naive pebble]

I blocked will for wasting my time.

The combo is true and you guys can't do it. That's as far as that goes honestly

[trim zealot]

I’ve went into the lab and landed it on bots, but it is escapable.

[raven onyx]

ITS NOT

[naive pebble]

You'd rather sit in a discord and argue about it being untrue rather than trying to do it yourself which you'll see it's true

[lost violet]

Translation: I couldn't stand being called out for being wrong so I got rid of anything proving my point wrong

[lost violet]

Pot calling kettle black but ok

[raven onyx]

😂 this is gold

[naive pebble]

aim Jerry to the floor so you pick him up instantly when you up smash.

I can do it.

[trim zealot]

Will responded to this with “pot calling the kettle black, but ok”.

You still have a voice here.

[lost violet]

We've done and seen it. You're just a special case getting caught in it and getting killed off it

[trim zealot]

“We’ve done and seen it. You’re just a special case getting caught in it and killed off it.”

[naive pebble]

4 blocked messages damn will be going nuts lol

[trim zealot]

Will’s typing, hold on.

[naive pebble]

Waste my time you will be blocked. Sorry

[lost violet]

You're laughing yet you've done absolutely nothing to refute anything

[trim zealot]

“You’re laughing yet you’ve done absolutely nothing to refute anything.”

[lost violet]

Except constantly go "Trust me bro it happened to only me"

[naive pebble]

[trim zealot]

“Except constantly go “Trust me bro it happened to only me”.”

[naive pebble]

[trim zealot]

That was very uncool to block someone just for disagreeing. That’s not wasting your time.

It’s trying to have a productive conversation.

They have every right to be upset about it.

[raven onyx]

This community rots peoples brains

[trim zealot]

It has become very toxic after the beta, but I think it’s this channel specifically that attracts toxic players who just want to complain.

Most of them, anyway.

[raven onyx]

Any other chat is a angel compared to this

[naive pebble]

sensitive?

[raven onyx]

You block people for being right

[trim zealot]

What do you mean?

[raven onyx]

Stop being a toddler and learn the game

[raven onyx]

I called him sensitive bc he blocks people for being right

[trim zealot]

Oh, ok.

[naive pebble]

Looney. If I told you that I am the authority on something but anyone who cares about that thing is a loser and I'm too cool to care about it.

Would you not have a similar reaction?

[trim zealot]

They never said any of that.

[lost violet]

That's exactly what you did

[trim zealot]

Will says “That’s exactly what you did.”

[raven onyx]

I didnt say anything like that

You was like: im right your wrong all this time

Finally we have breathing room

[naive pebble]

That's why you're not blocked, Will is blocked because he doesn't wanna say that I have no life and care too much but also that people who don't care should be judge jury and executioner about the game

[trim zealot]

Neither should be, only the devs should be.

We just have feedback, their choice to listen or not.

[lost violet]

I never said or thought I was judge jury or executioner. Nor did I say that entire sentence you tried to put in my mouth

[raven onyx]

And Ajax said their gonna gonna drop so much stuff

[trim zealot]

Will says “I never said or thought I was judge, jury, or executioner. Nor did I say that entire sentence you tried to put in my mouth.”

[trim zealot]

What do you mean by drop? Like new content?

[raven onyx]

Yea

We finally have breathing room now

[lost violet]

Good. Any idea what that new content's gonna be?

[raven onyx]

Hitbox fixes

[trim zealot]

I thought they took care of most of those issues. There was even an overhaul on most before.

[raven onyx]

Nah that was mechanical

[trim zealot]

Nevermind, that overhaul was for hurtboxes. I was mistaken.

[raven onyx]

Oops my fault

[trim zealot]

Here’s hoping power puff girls can be hit towards you if you hit one that was sent flying toward you seperately.

Instead of just “poofing” out of thin air.

[cyan whale]

#combos message

Combo counter says it’s true. Bot is set to dodge after hitstun as well

Jason is too big to escape

[lost violet]

At least you actually showed something

[cyan whale]

Now you probably need to burn a dodge to catch tech away

But the bot always seems to tech towards me when set to dodge after hitstun

[lost violet]

They always seem to dodge towards the spot they spawned on

[cyan whale]

Oh is that how that works?

[lost violet]

Yeah I’ve seen that multiple times. Especially in the beta

[cyan whale]

I’m surprised the default option isn’t neutral tech

[lost violet]

The training bots aren’t that smart. But good on you for showing actual proof that it could be true

[cyan whale]

I’m pretty sure it’s true on any character where Jerry will clip their legs

So like probably not Gizmo

[cyan whale]

I used to play T&J back in beta, so I have a bit of muscle memory from then

Granted the follow up after Jerry shot was dair which would combo into Jerry shot again

[subtle lotus]

The paddle loop is not true on Di upwards

And up

Alr tried it

Played against pro players

And they escaped by doing that

Paddle also it's trash

Your saying it like paddle its so bronen

Broken

If the paddle got like 20-30 frames of whiff

Paddle its fine

Rewards you with an convertion

If your opponent is not di'ing correctly

Most of the players won't avoid the combo

Thinking that its an onf

Inf

I alr played some grandmasters

And the trick it's tu just di up

And mash

Just like that

[cyan whale]

DI up and mash doesn’t work for bigger characters or characters with longer legs

I’ve tried and if done correctly, I can’t escape

As Shaggy

Or Jason

You saying paddle loops are fine is the equivalent of me saying prepatch Shaggy rage specials were fine

They’re both overtuned and overcentralizing and PFG doesn’t know how to balance them

[trim cave]

Does anyone know that the side spam of bg and shaggy can be avoided for jerry by aiming at the head instead of straight on?

[cyan whale]

That makes sense

BG side special hitbox is only on the spear and Shaggy side special hitbox is only on the foot

[trim cave]

Yea everything else is like that and interestingly the powerpuff girls cant insta kill only 2 hit but its fast so obtaining jerry may prove difficult at least for me

[dusty nova]

Ah yes a jack that can only kill with side b on and off stage but the trick is that he thinks he's good for pressing side b

[raven onyx]

We finally have have breathing room without people complaining about TnJ

[dusty nova]

Ppl just play like dics fins jacks and wonder women's all just spam the same garbage

And it's all you see

Them 3

[raven onyx]

I can beat a WW with TnJ

Supes

Shaggy

If i don't die at 40

Percent

[dusty nova]

Wonderwoman kills tnj with all her moves above 80%

[raven onyx]

Doesnt she have like tons of armor

[dusty nova]

Both🤓☝️

[raven onyx]

😕

[naive pebble]

Please remove the paddle into jerry shot loop

[dusty nova]

Have you tried to d I up?

Yk I've seen more jake the dogs more then I've seen tnjs for like a month now

[raven onyx]

Its the other way round for me

[dusty nova]

Huh

[subtle lotus]

Ok i hit masters

It was way to easy

The ranked points system it's broken

Il hit masters with bugs now in 2s

Or maybe get masters 1

[trim zealot]

I’ve also seen more Toms than Jake.

I’ve had a quite a few dittos.

[naive pebble]

Please remove the paddle into jerry shot loop

[raven onyx]

Im done bruh

[subtle lotus]

Bro I'm exhausted of seeing your comment

Lit learn how to dodge it

Can be di

Just spam up and di up

That's lit all

If you get hit by the first one, you won't get hit by the second one

[naive pebble]

Dude I've tried. do you honestly think I'd still be complaining if it was that simple?

[raven onyx]

Just come back when the patch is out

[lost violet]

Yes

[naive pebble]

Will, Will remain blocked?

He will if that's what I will.

[lost violet]

You say that like you’re desperate for me to beg you to unblock me.

[naive pebble]

What? No...

Anyway I need a 2000 word essay on why I should unblock you then I'll consider it. Just sayin.

[lost violet]

It’s great not seeing someone who begs for attention and blocks people for being right. Just eliminating the problem all together is great

[naive pebble]

I wish you did something to test if you're blocked like trying to react to one of my messages cause you might be surprised

[lost violet]

And nothing of value was lost

[lost violet]

Anyway when’s that patch coming out

[naive pebble]

Tuesday

[lost violet]

There’s a blocked message there. It’s probably from that guy who’s confidently wrong so I won’t trust his words

[naive pebble]

Dang who sensitive now lil bro lol

I've lost my biggest fan this is a very sad day 😿

[naive pebble]

You say that like you’re desperate for me to beg you to unblock me.

[subtle lotus]

He won't get nerfed

His trash

Your lit complaing on one of the worst characters

On disadvantage

And wanting to remove his only combo

That leads into tech chass

If they are a lot of characters being top tier

With that feature

Nobody its complaining about

Batman

Shaggy

Steven

Iron Giant

Agent Smith

Stripe

Garnet

Banana Guard

Tazz

Superman

Wonder Woman

Only on T&J bc he's tricky to fight

You can escape the combo

Its really simple

The combo its unscapable if your below 30%

People skill issue in this game its insane

[lost violet]

They honestly still won’t learn or care

[subtle lotus]

Always complaining on the underdog with one tool

Then leave the meta right were it is

Just fought an steven

Lit the unfairness match that i have ever done

[subtle lotus]

Plus if you main Superman, Jason, Samurai Jack or IG you won't get out of the combo so easily

So you cant complain about T&J the combo its escapable

Your character its an tank and has an huge hitbox

So you cant complain about getting combo

If every character has an unique true combo on jason

Or huge characters in general

But you got the option to counter him anyway

If he paddles

Or jerry shot

Just learn the mu

[subtle lotus]

Stripe its so broken

[coral turtle]

how do you get out

old message but im wondering

[lost violet]

Getting out of the loop is simple. You just dodge away from it. It may sound like I’m being sarcastic but I’ve seen it done like that too many times for it not to be the solution

[keen swan]

Is this in reference to paddle?

Cause that usually doesn’t end up working

But which direction do you mean by away?

Do you mean like dodge out or dodge in (dodge towards T&J or away from T&J)

[lost violet]

After you get shot, away. That pretty much stops the loop

[naive pebble]

I'm going to make the mistake of taking Will seriously just to explain something important.

[naive pebble]

The Jerryshot shouldn't be aimed to shot the player as away as possible because that would end the loop.

The Tom has to aim the Jerry shot as downwards and as close to himself as possible so when you up smash you barely have to walk to pick up Jerry and you have enough time to tech chase on reaction.

[subtle lotus]

Don't work like that, you can read the di, the key its on dodging up and spam dodge you won't get hit if you aren't one of these characters: Jason, Superman, Iron Giant or Samurai Jack

[subtle lotus]

Yes

But the point it's that you can avoid the jerry shot

If your at 0 percent and you aren't one of the characters that i mentioned

You will get hit by the first one

Then when he paddles you again

You will dodge up when he's delaying the jerry shot

Pd: This doesn't work on Jason, Superman, Iron Giant and Samurai Jack

There hitbox are way to big, they wont escape

Alr tried against some grandmasters

Its dodgeable on character that haesnt an huge hitbox

[subtle lotus]

If you main one of this characters im so sry for you

But you can atleast focus Jerry

And kill him

All of those characters that i mentioned can rush down and kill T&J very easily

If the Tom doesn't play as it should be

You can benefit the fact that they spam jerry shot, if you dodge it you can directly rush down and get an full punish

Consider that T&J its one of the lightest character in the game

Its lit so easy to die at 80 with him😭

Try to focus on punishing jerry if he spams jerry shot

And if he dont want to save jerry

Look at an safe option to kill him

Like an down air

Or jason dash attack

You khow smth safe

@naive pebble read all that i said, that's all the counterplay you need

That's what grandmasters do, also im almost grandmasters

I'm sick of playing against lonelydripp

Iron Giant its broken

[naive pebble]

I mean I can agree that other characters need nerfs too but I literally know my character can't escape the loop when the loop is done properly because it's happened too many times and I've tried every way I can to counter it.

You have a better chance of convincing me that what I think my name is, is wrong and I actually have a different name.

[subtle lotus]

What's your main?

Like the character that you use always

Maybe he cant escape

I alr specify wich characters can escape or not

[dusty nova]

I've had like 2 diddos I only see toms on 2s and It's rare fr me

[naive pebble]

You already know I play samurai jack

that's why I had to use buggs against you because otherwise it's a 9-1 mu

[subtle lotus]

I'm so sry

But other characters can dodge it

Theres like 4 characters that can't

Bc of his hitbox

[naive pebble]

4 is too many dude.

1 is too many

[trim zealot]

You’re not the only one complaining about it. I’m pretty sure that it’s gonna be addressed next patch, especially given PFGs history with loops.

I don’t think it’s a problem given the characters it affects are pretty heavy, but it’s likely to be removed, so you don’t have to stop in this channel everyday to complain to people who main T&J about a loop that we can only use in a fraction of our matches.

[lost violet]

So after Tuesday he hopefully won't have to come back? I've just been pretending he didn't exist the whole day. Even blocked him

I'm gonna go back to that

[naive pebble]

Being that venomous out of nowhere is just gonna make people not like you dude.

[lost violet]

[naive pebble]

Nobody likes you

[trim zealot]

To be fair, you blocked them first, back when they were being nicer to you than this.

[naive pebble]

To be fair, I blocked him for a reason and to be fair, he will not be unblocked how you've been unblocked.

Also he was acting like trash last time he's just been extra trash this time.

[lost violet]

He’s acting like I wasn’t blocked for a stupid reason. Even worse acting like he was civil before or after he chose to do that. I give him that same energy and all a sudden he wants to say I’m in the wrong

[naive pebble]

What does 1 blocked message even mean? You just tryna troll rn?

[lost violet]

Huh. A blocked message wants attention it doesn’t get otherwise.

Would be annoying if it wasn’t pathetic

[raven onyx]

Yall are still beefing?

[lost violet]

Yes, though I was ignoring his existence till the moment he decided to act like I was talking to him

[raven onyx]

We getting tired of this. Can people stop compaining about a Untrue loop FOR 5 MINS

[lost violet]

We past that, now he just wants to taunt me. His first mistake was thinking I wasn’t gonna play that game better than him

[raven onyx]

Did u win?

[lost violet]

I’ve been winning for a while.

[raven onyx]

My man🤝

[naive pebble]

This is what he thinks winning is just fyi. I think that's being a salty loser but ok

[raven onyx]

Your hiding it?

[naive pebble]

?

[raven onyx]

Hiding the salt you have

[naive pebble]

He didn't beat me in game or in the argument why would I be salty?

[raven onyx]

Ur whining about a untrue loop

You would complain about Bugs aswell

[naive pebble]

Nobody ever called me out in game and actually beat me so why would I be salty?

I said a while ago that buggs doesn't need a nerf

[raven onyx]

Someones confident

[naive pebble]

It is true on some characters you need to get Shaggy, Samurai Jack, Jason or Superman (there's probably others idk about yet) to a high rank in 1s and play against a good tom player and you'll see for yourself it is a true loop on those characters.

[naive pebble]

yep

If Will ever wanted to play I'd be down

[raven onyx]

Shaggy can kill TnJ hella early

[odd marsh]

Why are you guys arguing in the Tom And Jerry channel😭 just dm each other

[naive pebble]

How's it an argument when nobody is mad

Looney u mad?

[raven onyx]

Im just burnt out on the complaining

[naive pebble]

There's a patch tomorrow

[raven onyx]

Ik there is but people are still gonna complain

[naive pebble]

I expect the loop is gonna be removed and I'll only complain if it's not removed cause it makes some MUs 9-1 and it's not fair or fun.

I don't want tom or bugs to be a dead character and they can be good characters without exploits like this loop

pretty sure you play those characters cause they're not 1 dimensional

this loop is 1 dimensional

[raven onyx]

Well yea

And Stripe and Velma

[naive pebble]

you're going to lose nothing if the loop is fixed don't worry

[raven onyx]

We already have a hole in our kit bc lost combos due to jump branch being taken awau

[naive pebble]

I said before that I'd prefer the jump being back that having the loop be in the game

[raven onyx]

We gonna get gutted more bc SO MANY PEOPLE WHINING ABOUT A CAT AND MOUSE

[naive pebble]

You'll be fine

[raven onyx]

TnJ mains pray we dont get gutted even more

[silver vessel]

I just hope Jerry shot doesn’t get removed out of paddle

[raven onyx]

I can tell were getting gutted due to how much hate we get

[subtle lotus]

Idk maybe they will remove the pull back whiff frames

[subtle lotus]

Its lit unfair

This character is not that good

People never complain about top tiers i swear

Only on annoying characters like T&J or Marvin

[raven onyx]

Bc people play them

[subtle lotus]

Fr

The people who complain about T&J, I'm 100% ensure they didn't have him bought

And never played an game with him

If you get clapped by T&J your just bad, or your character its way to big

And even if your character can't escape the combos

They got his ability to deal with T&J

Like @naive pebble, Samurai Jack can Parry the projectiles and release one

The key to win an T&J with Samurai Jack its to play passive

[raven onyx]

Its legit the end of TnJ players

[subtle lotus]

With the shadow perk idk

That places jack behind T&J after parrying an projectile

[raven onyx]

Wrap it up yall

[subtle lotus]

Atleast i got masters 2 with him

Today il try to get to masters 1

Then say goodbye for my fav character in the game

Bc its getting gutted with all the people skill issue

T&J its an strange archetype for an platform fighter

That's why everyone complains about him

Its really weird to counter him

But he got a lot of cons

That people can't use on his favor

[raven onyx]

Isnt Ice Climbers in smash the same thing

[subtle lotus]

No

You cant manage different moves from your partner

Ice climbers performs an move both at the same time

Also Jerry can die

So your moveset changes

With Ice Climbers it's the same

Lit less khockback and less dmg

That's all

Paddle its alr nerfed, they just need to remove the hitbox on the front of the paddle

And add T&J more combos or compensations

And his an fair character

Also making Jerry die with all armored moves

[raven onyx]

Im already getting the funeral ready for TnJ

[subtle lotus]

I will keep playing my character

I wont drop my main

[raven onyx]

The amount of hate we get is enough to gut TnJs kit even more

[subtle lotus]

They are stupid

This community its stupid and got serious problem of skill issue

I think il go to rivals 2

[raven onyx]

Ik they are but i cant anymore

[subtle lotus]

Its an competitive and sane comunnity

They dont complain about being bad atleast

Brawhalla has an competitive community too

[raven onyx]

Its actually over for TnJ

[subtle lotus]

They don't complain about every character they lose

[raven onyx]

Ik

[subtle lotus]

And Smash ultimate

[raven onyx]

THEY ACTUALLY LEARN FROM THEIR MISTAKES

[subtle lotus]

I swear if an mvs player enters to play smash

They will get giga clapped from an ganon

And grab over and over

And cry for an nerf

On an game that stopped releasing patch notes years ago

[raven onyx]

And the smash community is like: bro what

[subtle lotus]

This game community is trash

[raven onyx]

How we have fallen

[subtle lotus]

That's the problem with incentivating noobs and casuals to an fighting game

Making the game easier on purpose

To make them comfortable

Instead of making them actually learn the game and the counterplay

Everything

This game mechanics are simple and adjusted to noobs

Ik if they add wavedashing, grabs and shields

All the casual community will leave

Lit the 99% of the game playerbase

[raven onyx]

This community is done wrap it uo

[subtle lotus]

Ik

[sharp plaza]

They are adding shields and probably grabs so lol

[subtle lotus]

Like now

After seeing the different pros complains

And is not on the game

Its just an test mode

The game its cooked

The balancing its poor

The devs don't care about balancing

They aren't even good in the game to balance it like it should be

They balance the game on people complains that's all

Not like brawhalla devs as an example

They are lit better than the competitive players

And they are experience on fighting games

Also the game its focus on competitive community

Not on casuals

I would like this game to become like meele one day...

Then il go play rivals 2

An competitive game with cool effects

Wavedash

Shields and grab

Is not simplified and the movement and all the option looks so cool

Its like meele but with an extra layer of khowledge and difficulty

[raven onyx]

We want MVS to thrive but if this keeps happening its not gonna last

[sharp plaza]

Cuz we see shields but not a counterplay to that or at least they didn't show any grab or shield breaker move, it's normal to have feedback

[subtle lotus]

They should add faster gameplay to complemate grabs and shields

[subtle lotus]

The game its bad balanced and dead do not try to save it

Go play an competitive cool game like meele or rivals

They are just gutting characters that people complains instead of seeing the real problems

Like finn, gizmo

[raven onyx]

They dont play test their game

[subtle lotus]

Now its T&J time even if the character isn't that good

And got the worst disadvantage of all

Also it's really light

[subtle lotus]

Ik they don't test it

That's why they buffed batman

Lets see, il predict the patch notes

Nerf every move on T&J kit, Buff every batman, Wonder Woman, Steven, Shaggy, Iron Giant, Arya Stark, Agent Smith, Stripe move

[sharp plaza]

Then just leave it man, theres no point on playing a game you don't like, there are better options so why to stay here?

[subtle lotus]

I really love this game

Its funny

Like the gameplay

The real problem its the balance and community

[raven onyx]

Plus our fav cartoons can fight together

[subtle lotus]

The community its way to toxic and it's not helping in anyway

They are an bunch of Salty casuals that think they are good at platform fighters bc they got into masters on multiversus

[subtle lotus]

And they can't punish T&J

The character with one of the easiest counterplays

I lit learned how to counter him

I haven't lose to any T&J since the last nerf

And people still complains

Its really disappointing

And if we are talking about batman or some top tiers like that

[raven onyx]

Its saddening aswell TnJ is our childhood characters

[subtle lotus]

They stay quiet

Lit theres no complains on top tiers chat

Only on this character bc its unique and different to the cast

So you got to use your brain

And think about how to counter him

Not to mash monkey spam

Its like saying nerf zato from guilty gear

T&J its lit like Zato from Guilty Gear

[raven onyx]

Its actually over now

[subtle lotus]

They main the top tiers

[sharp plaza]

Any fgc community it's toxic at this point, and I don't even want to talk about the problems of games like ultimate if you know you know

[subtle lotus]

And can't win an T&J

Hilarious

[sharp plaza]

This community it's pretty much chill

[subtle lotus]

I dont think so

Meele, brawhalla

[sharp plaza]

I agree with brawhalla

[subtle lotus]

Rivals of eather

Aether

[sharp plaza]

But meele? I got like 2 d3ath threats just because of playing a single character, same thing in ultimate

Tho, the community of my city is good

[subtle lotus]

Mmmmmm

[sharp plaza]

Online? Another whole story

[subtle lotus]

I see

Maybe the sf6 community its chill as i see

[sharp plaza]

I have people doing tbags on this game or emoting but that's all tbh, just the normal community

[subtle lotus]

All that ik is that. This community its full of casual complaining about everything and destroying the game

Brawhalla don't have that problem

Bc the game is not meant to casual players

[raven onyx]

Well we will see on the other side for TnJ

[sharp plaza]

Brawhalla really is something more, dunno how that game survived everything and has a gigantic player base

[subtle lotus]

Survived bc its an game for the competitive community from smash

Also bc his balance its super good

Got really good tech and it's an game that satisfy every community

Focusing on competitive players

[silver vessel]

imma be honest I feel like this upcoming tom nerf might be partially my fault

[lost violet]

What did you do?

[raven onyx]

Play the character well

[cerulean cliff]

Too well apparently

It iiiis what it is

[raven onyx]

Well im already getting funeral for TnJ bc their gonna get gutted bc people cant punish them

[cerulean cliff]

Nubia looks cool, if not a little basic

But if TnJ are actually straight dumpstered then hey, I got the Rivals 2 open beta to play

[raven onyx]

That tipper perk is gonna be infurating

[raven onyx]

Im betting their gonna gut them and pull a Z Broly and throw them in the trash

[cerulean cliff]

I dont know why its a perk at all

Tippers feel like they ought to be hard hitting by default

Whatever Nubia does to us cant be worse than WW just existing

[raven onyx]

I hope its hard to it

[cerulean cliff]

Given how its a spear character, probably not

Of all the post launch characters so far she seems the easiest at a glance

[raven onyx]

I can tell shes gonna be annoying to fight

[cerulean cliff]

It iiiis what it iiis

Of course we need to see if we can fight at all first

[raven onyx]

As if our character is gonna work when the patcn is out

[cerulean cliff]

I'm not trying to learn new MUs when I dont know if we have confirms left

But in the same breath they said Jason is getting more buffs so y'know

I guess that one dude got his wish

[raven onyx]

Theirs nothing in TnJs kit now

[cerulean cliff]

Not much outside of like, racketed cork/tennis starters

[raven onyx]

We done bruh

[cerulean cliff]

How done we are will determine whether or not I keep this game as a main one

Instead of just a "log in, do dailies, log out" type deal

[raven onyx]

We gonna be blasted out of the game

[trim zealot]

Down air > up air is true on all characters. Up tilt > up air is true dependent on opponents DI. Down angle Jerry shot > dodge forward up special > up air is true on all characters. And forward air drift tennis racket > jump/dodge jump down air near ledge can work.

[cerulean cliff]

Hold that for after tomorrow

We gotta see whats left

I'm assuming they're just gonna make paddle even worse

[raw fossil]

how do you send the tennis balls down

[lost violet]

Tennis racket with the analog stick aiming down

[raven onyx]

TnJ mains we pray that we dont get gutted even more

[lost violet]

I’m not keeping any hopes up honestly

[cerulean cliff]

I have made peace with it already

[raven onyx]

Yea we should accept out fate

[visual crescent]

TNJ is the least fun character to fight in the game, I think its understandable

that there is some adjustments to him

it would be okay if they added some strength in some areas, but removed some from paddle / projectile spam and run playstyle

[cerulean cliff]

Whatever happens happens at this point

[keen swan]

^

Can’t emphasize that enough

It’s basically why he gets so much hate

[cerulean cliff]

As is the case with any other character using strong zoning tools in anything ever

[visual crescent]

MVS needs a system wide addition to help with defensive options vs projectile play, sadly Gizmo, TNJ, Marvin kind of expose this

[cerulean cliff]

If you want my personal vote on least fun character to fight, I'd probably say Morty

but that's mostly because earth spike is still overtuned

[visual crescent]

Right, ill add morty to that example I just made haha.

I dont think its fair to gut these characters, as an IG main I have sympathy for your character getting hard nerfs often, but the game itself needs some defensive additon. A few perks might do the trick without ruining the current flow

[cerulean cliff]

All the anti-projectile perks in the world wont erase the stigma

Mind you, we lost Make it Rain from the beta

[visual crescent]

What about a perk that enables a projectile shield upon spot dodging, using X amount of your dodge meter? When inputting a movement command the shield will disable?

[cerulean cliff]

They added a perk that reflects projectiles on parry but nobody uses it because parrying is still wack

[visual crescent]

Yes I know, parry is not an effective option, you cannot rely on the everyone perfect parrying every projecile, you can have up to 5 flying at you at once in some scenarios, like TnJ

but there needs to be a way to get on top of some of these characters reliably

[cerulean cliff]

The one that grants projectile shields while running is decent

[visual crescent]

Personally I did not find that to be the case, for the record I am in masters rank in 1s on IG

1.5 seconds is too long to try and wind up that shield, you get punished for it more than it helps

[cerulean cliff]

I won't pretend TnJ/IG was fair at all for IG

That is a big body ™️ moment

[visual crescent]

Sure maybe that is matchup dependant, but many characters are jump heavy making the perk not as strong. I will say that I think theres a way for everyone to win here, sadly I dont have a perfect solution in mind

system wide defensive options are needed though, to take heat off TnJ for example

[cerulean cliff]

They're talking about adding proper shields down the line

[visual crescent]

as an IG main its easy to cry about a matchup, but I think exploring different options is whats going to make this more feasable, and generally, create trust from the player base

Take a look at it from PFG perspective though, 75% of whining I see is people losing a ranked match, going -15 RP, and the first thing they want done is game adjustments, the amount of whining from the community in general is insanely high

if PFG was smart, they would conduct a survey from X amount of people from X rank to figure out where the most consitent issues are

[cerulean cliff]

That's also most modern fighting games to be fair

[visual crescent]

100%, hard to know how to navigate this issue as the developer.

We do know there is a problem though, just the steam charts alone tell us that the game is being dropped (even if stagnating atm) which isnt good, as there is a huge potential here that people take for granted

vaguely polished, free live service game, with good netcode for the majority of people, with strong IPs, its a recipe for success if they can stick the landing

[cerulean cliff]

going offline for a year did them no favors

logistics aside, we'll see what happens

[silver vessel]

welp, we lost jerry shot out of paddle

GOD DANG IT

[cerulean cliff]

Knew that was coming

It iiiis what it iiiis

I was expecting a lot worse I'll be completely honest

Still did nothing to adjust our terrible close quarters game

Time to zone even more lads

[small topaz]

Are loops gone now?

[cerulean cliff]

If they involved specifically Paddle > Jerryshot then yes

Just be prepared for any remaining cats to never approach

Actually I think it is straight impossible to combo into it now, holy

[subtle lotus]

T&J its now officially trash

And they didnt nerf the broken characters at all

[hollow flax]

lol this is crazy. I don’t even play this character but I feel bad you guys literally can’t even cancel into certain moves after paddle. Like I get it cause “it was a loop” or whatever but like they could have found a way to let you guys do your combos but have them be nerfed

[cerulean cliff]

Batman did eat a sizable hit

[hollow flax]

Now you just can’t do them cause they’re too lazy to find an actual solution

[cerulean cliff]

Losing weakened off of up air is huge for him

good

[subtle lotus]

We can't do anything

No combo

This character is dead

[lost violet]

They took all the combos and gave nothing

[cerulean cliff]

On the other hand, we omega get farmed by Finn now

[subtle lotus]

And they didnt nerf Wonder Woman at all

[cerulean cliff]

hooraaaay

[hollow flax]

The weakened was the cherry on top for him. He is still busted

[subtle lotus]

One change

[cerulean cliff]

He also lost the kick off of his down tilt

[subtle lotus]

This game is an bunch of garbage

[cerulean cliff]

And his jab is worse on whiff, on top of dodge jab universally being worse

Ours is still non functional so y'know

Zoning

S'all we can do

[subtle lotus]

This is incredible

They lit killed the character

And buffed some top tiers

[lost violet]

They functionally can’t do anything now. Watch people still complain

[subtle lotus]

Fr

[cyan whale]

Ok so like the paddle nerf is good, but T&J totally should’ve been compensated in other areas

[subtle lotus]

Is not good

[cerulean cliff]

Of course they will, because by design pure zoning is not fun to fight against

[subtle lotus]

Its the worst change they could done

[cerulean cliff]

But this is the hand we're dealt

[cyan whale]

No, it’s a good change

[cerulean cliff]

Oh well

[cyan whale]

But what isn’t good is that there was no compensation

[subtle lotus]

If making zoning T&J and camp the best option to play

It is an good change

Also we can't jab at all

[cyan whale]

T&J being just paddle loop the character is hella lame

[subtle lotus]

Is not an paddle loop

You can tech bounce

[cyan whale]

I mentioned previously that his jab should’ve gotten buffed

[subtle lotus]

Theres a lot of characters better than him

Getting no changes

[cyan whale]

As compensation

[subtle lotus]

Like agent smith

And they do lit the same

I want to see all of this people crying on agent smith or smth

I really hate yall

[small topaz]

Its the loop gone or no

[cyan whale]

Yeah it is

[subtle lotus]

This comunnity is lamd

[small topaz]

FINALLY

[subtle lotus]

The character is gone

Now start complaining about agent smith or smth else

They do the same

Get out of here

[cyan whale]

If the loop was all the character had, then that’s not good design at all

[small topaz]

I dont care about anyone else

[cerulean cliff]

I might be playing more Jason this season I cannot lie

[subtle lotus]

The loop was lot dodgeable

[small topaz]

Its not my fault the whole character gameplay

[cerulean cliff]

He's already my second most played character

[small topaz]

Was a single loop

[subtle lotus]

Only 4 characters couldn't di and dodge the combo

[cyan whale]

Shaggy couldn’t either, so 5

[subtle lotus]

Jason, Superman, Samurai Jack and Iron Giant

[cyan whale]

Too long of legs

[subtle lotus]

The character is killed

We got no combos

Nothing to do here now

Its really unfair

[small topaz]

It might sound crazy what im about to say

[cyan whale]

You’re acting like T&J is Jake or Velma tier now

And he’s not

[subtle lotus]

Fr

They buffed them

T&J its d tier

[cerulean cliff]

I wouldn't go that far

[cyan whale]

Yeah and Velma is still ass

[subtle lotus]

Nah

[small topaz]

Also the fact some characters cant di out of it but some can doesnt justify the loop

[subtle lotus]

They could just change the di

Or even delaying the jerry pickup

[cyan whale]

Jake is literally just uair, nair, and bite cheese the character

[subtle lotus]

I'm so sad for this character

I guess il just play passive and camp projectiles

[cyan whale]

You know what, I’m picking up T&J again because of this

[subtle lotus]

That's what people want us to do

[cerulean cliff]

TnJ is rapidly approaching "one move andy" territory though and that's what we don't like

[cyan whale]

I’ll experiment because T&J players clearly don’t want to

[cerulean cliff]

Just chuck every projectile and run away

[subtle lotus]

Theres no experiment or combo routes

[cyan whale]

This is what I’m saying

[subtle lotus]

Just play passivd

Passive with projectiles

That's lit the only option

[cerulean cliff]

You can experiment all you like, but the second you find a character who ignores projectiles, good luck

[cyan whale]

Spoiler alert: playing passive is objectively the most optimal playstyle with every character in every fighting game

[cerulean cliff]

That's false but carry on

[small topaz]

Hardcore fox going down with this one

🗣️

[subtle lotus]

I think hardcore will drop T&J

After this one

I just want atleast one combo

[small topaz]

He will now main Braindead guard

[subtle lotus]

Like this is unfair

[cyan whale]

Hardcore Fox while a top player was absolutely carried by loops

To an absurd degree

[subtle lotus]

Fr

T&J should have some combos like in the beta

[cyan whale]

Watching him get 90 from loops is just dumb

[subtle lotus]

Like insane combos

[subtle lotus]

The combo waesnt true

Stop complaining for the love of god

The tech mechanics was add to the game like 2 months ago

And your saying that is an loop

Oh god

Why they just rework the tech system and keep the character the same

[cerulean cliff]

At the very least, TnJ can still maybe function in 2s

[subtle lotus]

Like an manual tech system

[cerulean cliff]

It's just gonna be a LOT more spammy is all

[subtle lotus]

I main him on 1s

[cyan whale]

2s is always spammy

[subtle lotus]

He was an good character on reading

Now he's trash

[cerulean cliff]

2s is where Banana guard exists

Speaking of