#elder-scrolls-lore

1 messages · Page 10 of 1

gaunt bear
#

I’ve got a question for my Dragon Age: The Lost Scrolls fanfiction:

When did the Dragon War break out, and how long did it last (as a guesstimate, since most of the records were lost)?

plain cosmos
#

We don't know. We don't even know when the Return occured.

#

We know it had to be some time between the Return, in the late Merethic, and King Harald, in the early 1st Era. But that only really gives us a 'latest possible date's.

#

King Harald was born about 1e113. He was supposedly the 13th in the line of Ysgramor. Though it's not entirely clear if that's the 13th generation, or 13th leader of his clan.

Still, of we assume 13th generation, and attribute an average age for having children for his ancestors at 25, that would give 325 years between Ysgramor and Harald.

#

I'd say you could fudge that to as far as 500 years, meaning the Dragon War would have had to have occured sometime between M2100 and 1e100.

#

My guess would be sometime between M2300 and M2400. 2 centuries after The Return, giving the invaders time to fully settle Skyrim and establish their own territories. And 200-300 years BEFORE Harald, to allow the Dragon Cult to become a fringe religious group and most of their ancient temples repurposed or destroyed.

fathom jewel
#

This raises a lot of questions for me:

#
  1. If Alduin is genuinely the son of Auriel/Akatosh, then who is his mom?
#
  1. What about the other dragons? Where did they come from?
#
  1. What does it mean that Alduin is the 'world eater'? Besides the fact that gobbling up Nirn would be a completely indigestible meal, what does 'eating the world' actually mean?
#

If Alduin is supposed to 'eat the world', what made him wait so long? Seems to me he could have done this any time during the Merethic.

#
  1. How is Alduin related to the "Hunger of Sep"?
gaunt bear
gaunt bear
gaunt bear
gaunt bear
gaunt bear
brisk perch
plain cosmos
sweet plume
plain cosmos
#

Nord IQs have always been in the single digits I guess.

sweet plume
#

I think ESO went into it with it’s own book

plain cosmos
#

It may have been because of Alduin's generally antagonistic and oppressive role in their society.

Akatosh was, afterall, the ENEMY. Lorkhan was their chief god, murdered by Akatosh (in their world view). They were then ruled over by Alduin as Akatosh's representative/imposter.

#

So the direct correlation between them is relatively easy to explain in that context. Especially given that Alduin seemingly tried to usurp Akatosh.

pastel sorrel
#

They did recognize Akatosh (probably Aka-Tusk) as the dragons' Bormahu at one point, since the one they were fighting with was Auriel, but eventually he came to be conflated with Alduin.

#

Probably Alduin's own doing in the first place, since he wanted to be the Dragon God.

fathom jewel
robust lintel
#
  1. It's like a trinity thing.. Akatosh, Auriel, Alduin.
robust lintel
outer sorrel
#

Not exactly. Akatosh was theorized by the Alessian cult in an effort to merge their established Ayleid-recognized Auri-El, and the Nordic Alduin. The Nords played a big role in the liberation of the heartlands Nedes, and as such were given high standing in the Empire

#

It's not a trinity so much as Akatosh is an amalgam

#

Also no the head of the Nordic totem is Kyne

pastel sorrel
#

she's the de facto leader, Shor is still their chief.

fathom jewel
#

So - the nords are still 'hooked on' lorkhan, even though his corpse is floating around in space and his heart has either been smashed to pieces or, at the very least, shifted out of the mortal plane. His spirit still drifts around the planes of Oblivion like a ghost. At the battle of Red Mountain, the Greybeards might have actually been able to 'sing' Lorkhan back to join the fight. Furthermore, Sovngarde still exists and has not been taken over by any existing Aedra or Daedra. Put it all together, and it raises a question: why haven't the Nords brought Lorkhan back permanently?

plain cosmos
#

His spirit literally sits on a throne in their heaven. And they may have managed to summon him into the world to reclaim his Heart at one point.

So they've TRIED to bring him back, Nords are just pretty solidly bad at everything, and got smacked down by the Dunmer.

fathom jewel
#

Depends on which part of the lore you accept. Some of the lore says that Nerevar slew him and ejected his spirit from the mortal plane; some of it says the opposite. Either way, Lorkhan is obviously not completely helpless - he still has Sovngarde and exists 'in spirit.' Jygallag (sp?) 'came back'; you'd think the Nords would be able to find a way to bring back their main guy. Some or all of the Aedra might oppose this, but I get the impression more than one Daedra would actually support this - Boethiah in particular.

#

But wait - I'm reading some of the uesp lore right now. What I'm getting so far:

#

The Redguard might not support Lorkhan/Sep. They refer to the 'hunger of Sep' as something within Sep that hungered for souls. Their beliefs claim that Tall Papa/Ruptga/Akatosh smacked Sep and the 'hunger' fell out. That 'hunger' is either Alduin (though this doesn't make sense, as Alduin is the offspring of Akatosh, not Lorkhan) or the 'hunger' is Lorkhan's heart.

#

The bretons don't seem to like Sheor/Lorkhan. The elves clearly don't, except for the Dunmer (curiously) who, despite the possibility that Lorkhan mortally wounded Nerevar, consider Lorkhan to be an overall good guy. The Khajiit appear to be overall rather ambivalent about Lorkhaj.

#

So - Lorkhan's support is limited primarily to the Imperials, Nords and Dunmer. You'd think some of the Daedra would plot to bring Lorkhan back both as providing potential leverage against the Aedra who hate him and to swing some more of the humans their way.

glacial scarab
#

Even i'd doubt Imperial support of Lorkhan. They've gotten rid of him given his state of being forgotten.
Even in the second era they sing of Lorkhan then ever meantion Shezarr.

plain cosmos
#

How do we know Lorkhan hasn't already been brought back? Or that it's even possible TO bring him back? Or that it's not inevitable for him TO come back.

There's bodies of thought which support all 3 perspectives.

#

In any case, however, Nords who are... Let's say, good in the thinky bits, IE those who would be most likely to be able to find a way to restore Lorkhan, are also the ones LEAST likely to care about him.

#

Because, as we've seen across TES, the most knowledgeable and intelligent individuals tend to be the least religious. They either pursue their own apotheosis, or generally disregard the god claims of the Aedra and Daedra themselves.

#

So the deeply religious Nords, the ones most interested in restoring Lorkhan, would also be the ones least able to bring him back due to their lack of knowledge and insights into how divinity works.

fathom jewel
#

I'm wondering if there would be any circumstances where it would be necessary to actually bring him back. I'm not sure the Battle of Red Mountain actually qualified. It's not just the ability to do so, but the motivation. This is a difficult question, I think.

brisk perch
#

Bringing back temporarily as a spirit is quite different from bringing back altogether such that they can manifest freely.
TBH many of them might not want to force him to come back, since many seem to believe that he is still acting upon the mortal plane to help them, just in small ways.
That's not even getting into the complexities of how Oblivion is a figurative and literal reflection of Nirn, ||and the missing Daedric Prince of Paths, Ithelia, whose story so far in many ways parallels Shor/Lorkhan||

fathom jewel
# brisk perch Bringing back temporarily as a spirit is quite different from bringing back alto...

Yeah, agreed. I'm thinking of a specific motivation that someone or some group might have to bring him back PERMANENTLY. I can't really think of anything. Also, I'm not sure it's a good idea. After all, most of the elves, along with the khajiit, bretons and redguard, have a poor opinion of him. They can't be all entirely wrong. What would be the purpose of bringing back Sep/Lorkhan/Shor/Joey the Weird Dead God back to his whole self? Would it be to protect mankind, to protect all mortal beings, or to destroy Nirn? Depending upon who you ask in Tamriel or on the Aetherius or Oblivion planes, you will probably get a different answer.

upper isle
#

Has anyone found a Nordic ruin (I think it was on Solatheim) that had a chamber laid out for all the world like a hibernation chamber on a fiction deep space colony ship except that the hibernation pods were draugr sarcophagi?

gaunt bear
robust lintel
fathom jewel
median tartan
#

So, I've learnt that there are centaurs in the Elder Scrolls world, native to High Rock and Elsweyr, a question that's been on my mind is are there any centaurs with zebra features, i.e. a zebra body instead of a regular horse body, and if yes, what would they be called?

fathom jewel
raw grail
median tartan
# raw grail I don't believe we have any sources talking about zebras even existing, except a...

Okay, well, I was planning to include centaurs and that in an Elder Scrolls/GoT/ASOIAF fanfiction I'm working on and a couple of original characters I am developing would be centaurs; one is a regular run-of-the-mill centaur and the other would be zebra-centaur. A bit of my head-canon/fanon would be that zebra-centaurs are an offshoot of the main centaur species that roam the savannas and plains of Hammerfell and are typically shy around most other races. What do you think?

raw grail
#

I think that makes enough sense

robust lintel
median tartan
# raw grail I think that makes enough sense

Yeah, another train of thought would be that they're the result of centaurs intermarrying with the native Redguards of Hammerfell, or perhaps an Ayleid experiment much like how the Bretons were the result of Ayleid experiments.

raw grail
#

I would suggest not going to deep into their origins

median tartan
raw grail
#

TES already hardly touches their origin story, so giving them extraordinary origins might feel weird

robust lintel
#

What is an OC?

median tartan
median tartan
raw grail
#

Say they're in the world, say where they're from, if asked provide sources that centaurs exist, and leave it at that imo

median tartan
#

I'll see what I can do

raw grail
#

Obviously other details like culture and how they interact with people are cool. I just mean origin wise

robust lintel
#

That was my first guess, but wanted to be sure before assumption.

#

Imagine, a minotaur dinosaur? Idk it just popped up

median tartan
median tartan
robust lintel
#

Couldn't be any different than that spider woman creature from Oblivion. Lol

#

Oh I'm mixing up the terms. I meant centaur, not minotaur

median tartan
#

Ah, gotcha

#

Another question: is there anything that is close to succubi in the Elder Scrolls lore?

raw grail
median tartan
#

Yeah, but I wouldn't exactly call them seductive

raw grail
#

Daggerfall, arena, or battlespire might have something more fitting

median tartan
#

I'll look it up

#

I looked up the bestiary of Daggerfall and Battlespire, there is a creature/enemy called a Seducer that takes on the form of beautiful women to lure in prey before assuming a slightly more demonic form

glacial scarab
robust lintel
#

Jk 😂

median tartan
gaunt bear
plain cosmos
warm jetty
#

IIRC the only 2 races who have a strong contact with Akaviri humans are Nords and Imperials right?

plain cosmos
#

Assuming the Akaviri Humans were even alive when the Empire invaded, at least

#

Though considering it's more and more likely that the Akaviri in general are just more groups of humans, then the list would be...

Nords, Bretons, Dunmer, Imperials, Argonians and Khajiit.

gaunt bear
plain cosmos
#

I've a hunch that the only real complication is... No one's bothered to actually write an answer.

#

Instead, they constantly evade, use Unreliable Narrator as a crutch, and flipflop on it based on the technical and time constraints of the game in question, and it's mentions.

#

The problems with that inconsistency, and the human-depiction, are not something I can actually talk about here without breaking the rules...

Sufficed to say, they need to either make the Akaviri very distinct, or stop mentioning them. Period.

glacial scarab
fathom jewel
#

There aren't many things about Akavir that we can take as canon. A few things that might come relatively close:

#
  1. There are four known sentient races, and they don't get along. The exception to that might be the Tang Mo, who come across as reasonable and lack any territorial covetousness. They have found a way to get along with everyone but the Kamal, who are inimicably hostile.
#
  1. At least two of the races - the Tsaesci and the Ka Po Tun - might have very limited/restricted shape shifting capabilities. The leader of the Ka Po Tun is said to have found a way over time to turn himself into a dragon. The Tsaesci are sometimes referred to as 'snake people.' The literature suggests their leadership (at least) might have scales and golden skin. But since the Tsaesci can interbreed with humans and even ruled in Cyrodiil for a time with a very human appearance muddles that understanding. I'm wondering if there isn't some sort of odd vampirism among the ruling elite of the Tsaesci that can give them an unusual physical appearance when they desire it (a bit like the Volkihar vampire clan) but they are otherwise human.
#
  1. The Akaviri peoples do not like dragons. They wiped out all the native ones long ago.
#
  1. How and when Akavir became populated and the relationships between their tribes and the Tamrielic tribes is unknown. It wouldn't surprise me if the Ka Po Tun were related to the Khajiit, the Tsaesci to Nords or Nedes, the Tang Mo to the Imga, and the Kamal to the Daedric servant races.
#

I think it would be fun to 'meet' some of the Akaviri people. Maybe they could be encountered in some of the port cities in HF. I would enjoy encountering some of their traders on cargo vessels, or maybe even walking into a building near the wharves where one or more of the tribes have set up some sort of trading guild. There's potential for fruitful and entertaining interactions, quests, unique items and such.

glacial scarab
#

We know both Kamal and Tsaesci ruled in Cyrodiil.

We've been to the Hakoshae and we've been to Cyrodiil and not really seen anything that works as "trace facial features of the Akaviri" on the Imperials.

glacial scarab
fathom jewel
# glacial scarab We know both Kamal and Tsaesci ruled in Cyrodiil. We've been to the Hakoshae an...

Bro, you just gave me an idea. What if the Kamal were just an unusually militant and exceptionally cold-adapted version of the Snow Elves? That would explain why the Imperial ruling class that intermarried with Akaviri for a period don't look overly different physically from your run of the mill Imperials. At least, I don't remember any of the Reman royal line being described in the lore as looking reptilian or demonic.

glacial scarab
#

Kamal in Cyrodiil was post Reman and actually quite near Tiber if I recall.

#

2E 812 — Rimmen secedes from Elsweyr.

  • Somewhere around here the Kamal make an attempt on Cyrodiil

2E 852 — The Tiber War begins.

plain cosmos
#

That was their second attempt. Presumably a contingent of them had been in hiding, and made the effort to take the weakened Cyrodiil.

Their primary invasion was centuries earlier

#

Their actual invasion was just before the events of ESO, with many of the Ebonheart Pact characters being veterans of that invasion.

Which makes it doubly stupid that no one seems to know what the Kamal look like, even then.

fathom jewel
#

Where could they have hidden and survived? Maybe some isolated valley in the eastern slope of the Velothi mountains, not too far from where that battle took place?

plain cosmos
#

Like, unless you're going to pull some Rangdani Xenocide nonsense... People better be able to recall the enemy they were literally fighting a few years prior.

plain cosmos
fathom jewel
#

OK. If it was the Kamal, maybe they went into some high mountain valley in the Jeralls that was snowbound and froze themselves in a cave, with a few keeping watch and scouting from time to time. The more I think about it, the more I suspect that the Kamal are snow elves with some sort of hibernation magic.

plain cosmos
#

It occured sometime between 2e572, and 2e812. Though we don't have much more to go on beyond that.

Other than that the Akaviri in Rimmen joined them, and they succeeded in taking the throne, but were unable to hold it or restore the Empire.

#

So, given what we DO know, it's entirely likely they were descendants OF the Kamal and Tsaesci, and not the parent cultures themselves.

fathom jewel
#

OK, I see. BGS has work to do regarding Akavir and its tribes and how to make them an interesting part of the whole world. Yes, I'm asking a lot. But let's see if they can come up with anything fun and interesting.

plain cosmos
#

Well, part of the problem they now have is... It's established in Rimmen that the human inhabitants of the city are of mixed ethnicity descended from Cyrods and Tsaesci.

If the Tsaesci are snake people, or related to other reptilian humanoids like the Argonians, this clearly means interbreeding is possible, and raises more questions.

If the Tsaesci are Humans, well... Then they come with all the problematic real world legacy that their depiction up to now brings.

So in either case, Bethesda needs to push some... Touchy lines for a multi million dollar company in the 2020s.

As such, I fully expect them to just ignore the problem and hope it goes away.

fathom jewel
# plain cosmos Well, part of the problem they now have is... It's established in Rimmen that th...

My guess - and, of course, it's just a hypothesis - is that the Tsaesci are quite human, but their ruling class is humans either with a weird vampirism or humans with some sort of snake magic skillset. This is just my attempt to weave some sort of logical framework from the fragments of information we have. Let's see what the BGS folks come up with. Hopefully it will be much more creative and compelling than what I've hypothesized.

outer sorrel
#

What do you mean relations with Tamriel is unknown? There's an imperial colony on the archipelago right near Akavir

plain cosmos
#

There was, at least 200 years ago. We have no recent information on them, or how they have handled the near collapse of the Empire.

shell basin
#

I guess the most likely situation is "there isn't a colony any more"

uncut hatch
#

What do y'all think happened to Divyath Fyr (that weird self-incest wizard guy from morrowind) after the events of Morrowind?

glacial scarab
#

He's probably still around not caring about anything while the Telvanni murder each other over who has the better beard.

uncut hatch
#

yea, when you not only have, wives, but the resources to literally manifest them out of yourself, you probably would be, at the least, at a steady state of mind. Plus you are literally have semi-god status and have lived thousands of years. So yea he was probably bing chilin till the red year

fathom jewel
outer sorrel
#

nah but for real, morrowind's timeline shenanigans means he could show up again if Beth needs to nostalgia bait. There's no clear answer.

gaunt bear
plain cosmos
gaunt bear
plain cosmos
#

Oh, i can see the entertainment, I just always tend to go more Cronenberg or Barker with things.

gaunt bear
#

I’ve also got that Neloth is not happy about being “assigned” to the Inquisition by House Telvanni (as in he threw a couple Ancient Dunmer cluster bleep bombs), but the magic of Skyhold is “resonating” (for lack of a better term) with the Heartstones he brought with him, so he’s making the best of a bad situation. (Another thing I think would be funny).

uncut hatch
gaunt bear
sweet plume
#

Lore!

gaunt bear
sweet plume
#

Oh I always do that in a Lore Channel

gaunt bear
#

If you think my plan for Corprus and Skyhold is amusing, wait until you see what I’ve got planned next:

Also because of the magic of Skyhold, Umbra reacts by building itself a living body to inhabit while also wielding its “sword”. Unfortunately, the “new Umbra” takes the form of a little girl dressed in Goth Lolita cosplay, much to its irritation.

plain cosmos
sweet plume
gaunt bear
sweet plume
gaunt bear
sweet plume
#

Sorry lol

robust lintel
# uncut hatch 😳

@gaunt bear Not sure how old the people in the inquisition are in your fanfiction, but I think that face would be the general response, much less a heart attack, from a religious group of 400 year old virgins. Unless of course the female Dunmer is incredibly old herself.. which the effects of seeing such a sight could be much worse

gaunt bear
robust lintel
#

Lmao

sweet plume
# gaunt bear Gee, that’s so helpful…

Khajiit Lore for A Dungeon DLC as well as Ithelia Lore, Wood Elf Lore for Gold Road being where Skingrad is since they are migrating into the area by Valenwood’s Border. Nothing on Colovian Lore yet.

glacial scarab
gaunt bear
uncut hatch
#

How large do y'all think nirn is?

#

Like in terms of surface area

#

I know people have given estimates online, like a few reddit posts I saw said that Tamriel was about the size of Europe (~10-15 mil sq km).

#

But, it has to be much bigger, there is no way that in a world of dragons; op magic; literal gods and space-time bending, realm shifting, teleporting, time-travelling, artificial god creating race with the mechanical knowledge of industrial era tech infused with magic (the dwemer) can't just chart the entire planet

#

Nirn has to be a super earth at the least, or a mega earth at the very very most

gaunt bear
#

@uncut hatch Just don’t overthink it, you’ll get a brain hemorrhage.

uncut hatch
fathom jewel
#

Ignoring the in-game scale for any given title:

#

Tamriel could be conceptually treated as a Eurasia-sized continent. That would make Summerset roughly the size of India or Australia. As a guess, I'd guess Akavir is about the size of Africa (only 4 races/tribes), Yokuda again the size of India or Africa (if Yokuda weren't mostly submerged), and Atmora as big as....Antarctica. This leaves Pyandonea, but there's really no information at all (at least none of which I'm aware.)

uncut hatch
fathom jewel
# uncut hatch Interesting

Basically I thought about it from the perspective of how many tribes were present on the land mass. There's none on Atmora, but it used to have two - the Aldmer and the Nords. Since Pyandonea only has 1 tribe, maybe it's no larger than Madagascar or Borneo - but I'm speculating. Summerset also has only one tribe, but you can see on a map that it's quite large, so Australia or India is a decent choice, I think.

fathom jewel
#

Now that I think of it - Yokuda also had two tribes: the redguard and the left handed elves. It was also very dry. SO: maybe Australia is the best choice in terms of size.

pastel sorrel
#

(it's a tiny planet compared to Earth if it is accurate)

outer sorrel
#

Well it's not a planet at all, it's a plane(t). That's the canonical term. Mortals use spheres to roughly represent each plane(t) and orrerys to represent their movements through the void, however they are nonlinear and non-euclidian. Basically the further you get from Tamriel, the more "vague" things get, and there's the temporal issue of the encroaching white frost.

plain cosmos
#

Nirn is a Planet. Mundus is a Plane.

#

However, it's size is highly inconsistent, and prone to changing with depictions.

In Arena, it's stated that Tamriel is 12 million square kilometers. But that doesn't actually really match up with other figures and distances given in other sources.

We're also told that from Mournhold to the peak of Red Mountain is 250 miles, which makes it... Well, not there far at all, and makes the world much smaller.T

hen you've got the nonsense of the Battle of the Red Ring, which depicts Oblivion'a Cyrodiil as true scale somehow.

Simple fact is, I don't think anyone knows. Not us. Not the people of Tamriel. And certainly not Bethesda.

#

It's as big as it needs to be at any given time to tell any given story. And consistency is not a concern.

sweet plume
plain cosmos
#

Yeah.

#

From a strictly design perspective, not HAVING a size is advantageous in giving you room for depictions without making the scaling too blatantly obvious.

#

Though, considering 'Citiee' in TES are like 50 people, I think the push that advantage well past it's breaking point.

sweet plume
fathom jewel
#

Very much in agreement about cities and towns. They are a glaring deficiency and throw me off in every title. It should be, theoretically, simple to fix, however. To make a city or town seem more like the real thing without actually putting thousands or 100's of thousands of NPCs in one, maybe bethesda could try this:

#

For a city - the residential district should have at least 100 homes, each with 2-6 people. The children could be seen going to school at, say, 8AM (and that means there needs to be one or more schools in the neighborhood) and returning around 3 pm. The adults can go out at regularly spaced times during the day (maybe 1/4 of them going out every 2-3 hours), either to work or 'making the rounds' - spending 2-3 hours going to the commercial district (especially an open air market) to the baker, fruit and vegetable stand, meat stand/butcher, maybe a blacksmith, finally a clothing store, and then back home. There should also be patrols of city guards of 2-3 each making their rounds across the city - maybe 5 groups in total. And the city itself should have districts - residential, commercial (maybe subdivided, with an open air market, some buildings with various wares like clothing, pottery, weapons, tools, shoes, doctor and dentist office, etc), and an administrative section (police and fire departments, courthouse, city hall.)

#

For a town, just reduce everything by 75% or even a bit more. BUT: every single town needs a wall. Places like Ivarstead, Karthwasten and other villages in Skyrim were ridiculous - there's all sorts of monsters and marauders about, and such undefended places with just a few people wouldn't last a New York minute. In that sense, the villages should all look more like the Orc strongholds.

#

Finally, every settlement needs to 'make sense.' Look at Dawnstar as an example. How do people grow any crops nearby with all that snow? Where's the defensive wall? Why is there only one boat in dock? There should be 2-3, with others coming and going. Why does Winterhold even exist? It's ridiculous. Ivarstead would make sense as a farming town, but it needs a stable, a livestock pen, walls, more people and more farming plots.

#

Yes, I know - that's a huge burden on the game's hardware. Maybe this can be reduced by smartly made loading screens. And maybe I am asking too much. But It would be great if they could at least move in this direction.

fathom jewel
#

Another thought: some folks might object to more loading screens for entering cities or towns. I completely understand. I think, though, that if the design of the city or town beyond the loading screen is well done, and the loading screen is reasonably short, it will be worth it. Just IMHO.

gaunt bear
#

Before I head to bed, I’ve got another lore question for my Dragon Age: The Lost Scrolls fanfiction:

Yagrum was able to “escape” the disappearance of the Dwemer by ‘not being there’, right?

Because I got planned that the Mountain of Skyhold is also hiding the Thedas equivalent of Moria/Khazad-Dum, and in that city is a single Dwemer ex-Tonal-Architect-turned-battlemage-commander in stasis.

The reason why he’s here is because of a noodle incident between him and Kagrenac. He also did some experiments on Red Lyrium (||https://dragonage.fandom.com/wiki/Red_lyrium||) before entering into stasis, which he thankfully saved.

raw grail
plain cosmos
#

Time works all wibbly wobbly in other planes.

fathom jewel
#

OK, so any dwemer who were not physically present on the plane of Mundus when Kagrenac tapped out his crazy tune on Lorkhan's heart was unaffected. This included not just Yagrum, but dwemer ghosts. Also: there was a mage in the Winterhold college who managed to make himself disappear after playing around with Keening and a soul gem, but he could be summoned as a ghost afterwards. The implication is clear - Kagrenac's tonal spell sent all the dwemer souls to another plane. It might not have been his intention, but this must have been the result. Which plane? That is unresolved. Maybe it's an Oblivion plane that came into existence or was otherwise unoccupied as a consequence of Kagrenac's spell. Maybe it was a plane that is otherwise part of Aetherius. Either way, the dwemer are likely on some plane, somewhere. Hopefully they're content.

plain cosmos
gaunt bear
fathom jewel
plain cosmos
fathom jewel
#

Wait - they CAN'T be bound to the Numidium. Remember - the Numidium never got united with Lorkhan's heart. I'm guessing they could never have become united to the Mantella, because it's not divine. So: they must be 'bound' to Lorkhan's heart. So: was Lorkhan's heart destroyed in ES3, or 'sent somewhere'? And if it was 'sent somewhere', what are the dwemer doing in that place? Hope they brought a deck of cards, at least....

plain cosmos
#

The heart was Unbound. Which could mean it was sent away, sent to Lorkhan, or is just... Omnipresent everywhere now.

But the nature of the Numidium is a complicated story.

#

Based on what little we know, the Numidium was an artificial god constructed with a particular purpose. The Dwemer used the Heart of Lorkhan as a power source and catalyst to make it, but their goal was to create a god.

And they rejected the godhood claims of both Aedra and Daedra. So they wanted to create something more than either.

Recognising that the Dwemer likely understood more of the process and their own goals better than we do, it's safe to assume that they weren't just trying to steal godhood from something they didn't even recognise AS a god (ie Lorkhan).

fathom jewel
#

OK, good point. Even without the HoL, Numidium is a walking Tower and creates dragon breaks. So I guess the dwemer could indeed be bound to it. Makes sense. The HoJ status is a toughie. If it went back to Lorkhan, then you'd think he'd be 'back in the game.' I'm assuming he isn't, or we'd know (I think) from ES5. So: the dwemer are either hanging out with Numidium, hanging out with the HoL, or are no more. This is what some might term a 'mystery.' 😉

plain cosmos
#

Indeed. And I think that intentional.

sweet plume
#

**Has House Telvanni always controlled the area surrounding Necrom, or has that land changed hands multiple times throughout history? I get the impression the political map of Morrowind is always shifting, with the different Dunmer houses enforcing ancestral claims, purchasing or inheriting land, and finding many ways to manipulate their way to the top. What's the history of this so-called "Telvanni" Peninsula, in that regard?

—Ash-of-Singing-Flame, Historian**

In reviewing the submitted questions, this issue of geography and politics seemed paramount in importance. It arose in several questions, in various ways. Let's deal with this directly.

Maps are tools. Nothing more. Nothing less. Standing in the Ashlands, a wayfinding map is a tool of survival. Able to assist you in finding your way to safety. Similarly, a ship's map may aid a sailor in finding a calm harbor far from home.

But political maps? Maps that claim to represent the truth of land claimed by force of blade and spell? These maps aren't tools for the reader. They're tools for the mapmakers.

They speak of great strength when perhaps none exists. They speak of boundaries and borders that may exist only in the minds of people burdened by over-heavy crowns. To offer a contemporary example, have you ever seen a map of "the front" in the war between the three alliances? Do you believe that map was accurate for more than a day? At most? And, as always, remember that every written thing you read is subjective. Even the words of Divath Fyr.

#

This is all context. With that in place, the historian's question is easily answered. The Great Houses have skirmished to claim the length and breadth of the peninsula in the same way they have warred for control of Vvardenfell, or Stonefalls, or Deshaan. Any maps that claim to fully represent political control of a region as heavily contested as Morrowind are guidelines at best. Even today, as the Three Banners war rages, my people continue their great game of strike and counterstrike. Gloved hands grip gilded blades, as the strong vie to rule the weak.

All that said, I would be remiss in not issuing a firm and clear warning. Anyone claiming that the great House Telvanni is not master of its domain is sorely mistaken. It is called "the Telvanni Peninsula," for the house controls the whole of the territory from its base to its tip, crowned by the island palace of Port Telvannis beyond. The city of Necrom, of course, is a somewhat complicated subject which I will address anon.

But if you have reason to fear the great house, do not sail for Firewatch. Stay far from Gorne. House Telvanni's rule within these borders is undisputed. And its reach, its power, its vengeance is a terrible thing to behold.

sweet plume
#

The Alliances is the best example, in the PVP map they constantly war, own, and lose control, a map dictating who owns what is useless

plain cosmos
#

Somewhat relevantly, the status of Morrowind at the time of Skyrim is another example of this.

Titularly, it is still a part of the Empire. The 'Poltical Map' of Tamriel places it as a Province of the Empire.

Functionally, the Empire has no real power or authority there, or the ability to enforce its will.

sweet plume
#

Telvanni are smart in terms of using there influence, all out war is sometimes something that can be avoided if one is smart enough

real oar
plain cosmos
#

In terms of House conflicts, their mechanism for dealing with internal conflicts is more to have a system in place (the Tong) to allow offended or concerned parties to target the cause more directly.

Unlike, say, more traditional systems where Nobles were generally protected due to status and ransom potential, and war was seen as a means of emphasising ambition and authority even if it was at the cost of the general public...

The Dunmer prefer taking that directly to the source. You don't start a war to humble an ambitious rival lord, you pay the Tong to slit his throat in his sleep.

And to the Dunmer, THAT is Honour. Resorting to open war is a sign of weakness, having failed to address the problem more directly.

gaunt bear
robust lintel
fathom jewel
sweet plume
#

Alkosh forbid how many times people send anyone off to war for pettiness

plain cosmos
#

Definitely lower collateral damage though. So it's a step up in my book, even if still far off the mark.

sweet plume
#

God that dlc can’t come out soon enough, it’s only next month but I need it

#

I want the Khajiit Lore that’s being added. XD

sharp lantern
plain cosmos
#

Not according to The Great War. Which is why I said what I said

fathom jewel
#

It would be nice to end a title with every single province being free - the political establishments in both Cyrodiil and Summerset need to get their ears boxed thoroughly so they learn to leave people in peace.

plain cosmos
#

Glorifying balkanisation is never a good idea

#

Freedom is often just a political twist on Nationalist

plain cosmos
#

Ultimately, all that matters are the privileges, protections and opportunities afforded to people.

pastel sorrel
#

Cyrodiil's just not in a position to do anything about it.

plain cosmos
#

Which does nothing to change what I said.

The context was that the maps are political and drawn with an agenda. The Empire says Morrowind is their province. Morrowind says they are not. Until either claim is tested, there is no contradiction if the agendas of the maps.

#

You can't just remove a statement from its context and say it's wrong based on you're own inserted context.

#

Like, I know this is TES lore, and academic standards haven't been part of the equation since C0DA, but like... Come on. This is bare basic stuff.

sharp lantern
#

Members of the Imperial government explicitly refer to Morrowind as not being part of the Empire in the Novels.

plain cosmos
#

When Titus Mede II ascended the throne in 4E 168, he inherited a weakened empire. The glory days of the Septims were a distant memory. Valenwood and Elsweyr were gone, ceded to the Thalmor enemy. Black Marsh had been lost to Imperial rule since the aftermath of the Oblivion Crisis. Morrowind had never recovered fully from the eruption of Mount Vvardenfell. Hammerfell was plagued by infighting between Crowns and Forebears. Only High Rock, Cyrodiil and Skyrim remained prosperous and peaceful.

fathom jewel
# plain cosmos Glorifying balkanisation is never a good idea

Not balkanization - just freedom from external interference. The Imperial integrations, whether stemming from Cyrodiil or Summerset (and occasionally from elsewhere) are always by force, and that's both immoral and unsustainable. To be frank, I think Cyrodiil is the worst of all - they have no internal strife to speak of (unlike every other province), but seem determined to 'export' their seemingly innate hostility and genocidal urges. Now a voluntary, non-coerced confederation of the provinces sounds perfectly fair and rational to me. You can see that on occasion the rulers of the various provinces can act rationally and constructively - for example, during the Khnaten (sp?) Flu crisis or any of the Akaviri invasions (I think there were two.) That sort of independent cooperation seems highly productive to me. Of course, I fully realize that such a state of affairs would probably make future ES titles rather less compelling 😉 . And, of course, it's just a game. This is all just a personal preference.

plain cosmos
#

It specifically states Blackmarsh's succession, but makes no similar claim to Morrowind's. That's about as implicit a you can be without swinging into Explicit.

And sure. But you are, as usual missing the entire point.

The people drawing the POLITICAL MAPS at the time are making POLITICAL STATEMENTS.

At the time of The Great Wars writing, the author (an Imperial commander) is making the implicit claim that Morrowind is still part of the Empire.

That relation to different interpretations of borders and claims based on the agenda of the map make WAS THE WHOLE POINT

fathom jewel
# plain cosmos When Titus Mede II ascended the throne in 4E 168, he inherited a weakened empire...

Wait - I disagree. If ES5 served as any example, Skyrim was an absolute mess. Abandoned forts and watchtowers controlled by brigands with oversight over major thoroughfares, monsters roaming freely, a guerilla war underway in the Reach, roads in such a state of disrepair that they were turning back into dirt tracks.....It all left me with the impression that Nords do not take to civilization that well.

plain cosmos
#

Nords don't take to anything well. They're cave men who i am surprised understand metal working.

fathom jewel
plain cosmos
#

Still, their nationalistic zeal in their fight for 'Freedom' is representative of some of the fundamental flaws in that sort of view on Freedom. They have actively made their own lives worse, and will likely continue to make the lives of their own kin who don't support them worse, because they define their freedom by their nationalistic identity.

Nationalism is a blight on freedom in general.

fathom jewel
plain cosmos
#

You also can never actually be free from outside interference. Trade, cultural drift, and general interactions with the outside will always drive interference.

That's not to say that Independence couldn't be good. But it's not NECESSARILY good, just like the Empire isn't NECESSARILY bad.

#

If the Stormcloaks are anything to go by, the provinces becoming independent will result in far more conflict and turmoil than we have now.

#

Because any movement predicated on hating someone else, is a bad idea.

fathom jewel
#

The Tamrielans by and large appear to be their own worst enemies. Maybe the Akaviri tribes should take notice and be happy that there's an ocean separating them from those people. 😉

plain cosmos
#

I mean, that's not much different than our world. So at least in that way, it's realistic.

fathom jewel
plain cosmos
#

Look how hard it is to bury the idea of Race. It's been rejected by the scientific community for half a century. And yet people STILL cling to it because of the divisions it offers.

In the case of a world where those superficial differences are more pronounced, you could expect the biases to also be more pronounced. Far worse if those differences are NOT superficial (as Racial Abilities proponents often demand) then it would be even worse.

fathom jewel
#

The cultures are more interesting, though. To me, that's where the fun is. Physical differences? Well, ok. But since all the tribes/races can interbreed, do those differences really matter? It's almost like a costume. In fact, notice how our complaints about the titles are usually the most intense when we talk about culture in a given game? That's where the 'meat' is. Doing the cultural descriptions and manifestations well is pretty much at the heart of what we mostly like or dislike about a given title. At least, that's my impression.

plain cosmos
#

Yeah. I am firmly in the 'Races are dumb' camp. The cultural identities and how they reflect in their populations are far more interesting to me.

#

A Redguard being good at swords because Redguard are just better with swords is lame.

A Redguard being being good at swords because their native culture heavily emphasises sword fighting is far more interesting. Because now you can explore a Redguard raised elsewhere.

#

Unless there are major physical differences (Giants, Minotaurs, Lhamja) then keep everyone baseline, and culture out from there.

#

The dominant races are dominant BECAUSE of their lack of specialisation and interchangeablity. It's what makes them versatile

topaz dome
plain cosmos
#

Lots of decline under Uriel VII. Should be named Uriel the Invalid.

#

Still better than Ocato the TRAITOR

sweet plume
fathom jewel
plain cosmos
# sweet plume Wait why is Ocato a Traitor?

His actions and decisions during the Oblivion Crisis were... Well, just terrible. On top of his general inability to stabilise the Empire in the wake of Tharn's defeat.

Either he was utterly unfit to lead the Empire at any state, or he was actively sabotaging it.

sweet plume
plain cosmos
#

Yes. Imperials suspect the Thalmor, but it was never confirmed.

glacial scarab
# fathom jewel I remember. I know this will sound bad, but Cyrodiil also struck me as kind of '...

It's the nature of video games RPGs you need dungeons to fight through and Sutch was cut for dev time. So what we see ingame really isn't what it'll be.

Lore scale you'll have alot more active forts, villages and cities just no RPGs going to be able to show that with how TES RPGs work unless you go back to Daggerfall.

Oblivion was honestly quite bad with a lot of Cyrodiil tbh and ignoring Jungles because people over focus on them too much you'll notice it really doesn't feel like much of a heartland of an Empire.

#

Like there's no East Empire Company, there's no heads of organizations like the Battlemages, the Grand Marshal of the Imperial Legions, Census and Excise people and etc.

#

Like off the top of my head Oblivion has dialogue about two regions being a breadbasket for Cyrodiil but there's only one farm in those regions.

sharp lantern
# plain cosmos When Titus Mede II ascended the throne in 4E 168, he inherited a weakened empire...

"He shrugged. “I can’t think how it would,” he said. “Anyway, the plan is to not fight it. We’re just here to find out what we can and report back to the Emperor. It’s still moving north into Morrowind. It may never threaten the Empire at all.”
Mazgar looked at the island again. “How can that not be a threat?” she muttered. She felt the coarse hairs on the back of her neck standing and her heart quicken. Brennus was looking at her in apprehension, and she realized she’d been growling in the pit of her throat."

plain cosmos
#

And you said MY source wasn't explicit enough. Like, that's literally like Crassus saying the Nervii weren't a threat to Rome. Despite them actively invading a Roman province.

gaunt bear
#

I’ve got something else I’d like some “lore” opinions on for my Dragon Age: The Lost Scrolls fanfiction:

Due to Thedas and Mundus being “snagged” together, Mundus is facing an outbreak of High Dragons (||https://dragonage.fandom.com/wiki/High_dragon||) from Thedas. Due to them being so different from Dovah, everyone everywhere is having a difficult time fighting them.

sharp lantern
plain cosmos
#

I'm not even going to try to explain geopolitics to you again. We've been down this road before, and you keep wandering off into the shrubs.

#

And I honestly don't care to try with you anymore.

sharp lantern
#

Bruh your argument literally boils down to ''The Great War doesn't explicitly say it, so it's still an Imperial province''.

Tell me, if Morrowind was an Imperial province, why is it not once mentioned as sending forces during the Great War? Why is there no Dunmer blood mentioned during the Battle of the Red Ring?

Edit: You also mention a 'political map' - when no such map exists. All the 'political maps' we have of present day Tamriel are fanmade.

plain cosmos
sharp lantern
#

Legionnaires in Skyrim will even outright state how with securing Riften they've finally obtained a launching point into Morrowind.

#

A launching point into an Imperial province? The Empire is going to invade itself now?

plain cosmos
#

Your total inability to understand geopolitics is your own business. As I said, I'm done explaining things to you.

sharp lantern
#

You just can't admit you're wrong, bud.

summer yacht
#

Alright, let's drop it

#

Move on

gaunt bear
plain cosmos
#

Fair point there

gaunt bear
#

Another thing that might cause trouble for Mundus is the Darkspawn (||https://dragonage.fandom.com/wiki/Darkspawn||). Not only are they both deadly combatants and carriers of a contagious disease, it’s extremely difficult to find anything out about their motivations.

plain cosmos
#

Assuming the disease would even be transmissible. Though if it was, Tamriel would basically have a Corprus problem on its hands again.

#

And without the 'easy' solution of unbinding the Heart of Lorkhan

gaunt bear
plain cosmos
#

Oh, I'm familiar with how the Blight works. It's... Infectious elements are interesting, to say the least. As are it's interactions with Lyrium.

#

Which makes me wonder what Blight tainted blood would do in reaction to refined Aetherium...

gaunt bear
plain cosmos
#

Ah, the Light-Saronite reaction.

gaunt bear
plain cosmos
#

From Warcraft. Saronite is a mineral derived from the crystalized blood of the Old God, Yog'Saron. It's resistant to all types of magic, EXCEPT Light Magic, which causes it to react violently, exploding.

gaunt bear
#

Tarin: “I also uncovered some partial notes of another Dwemer scientist who was experimenting with refined Lyrium as an alchemical ingredient. While most of the notes were damaged or aged to the point of illegibility (so I don’t know what other ingredients were used), I was able to find out that the (male) Dwemer somehow created a potion that could temporarily change the drinker’s gender. Though how I don’t know…”

fathom jewel
#

Does anyone feel like entertaining a discussion on the Ayleid? Strangely enough, an oddity in the lore description popped into my head - an inconsistency.

#

The lore spends a lot of time describing the Ayleid as daedra-worshipping sadists and psychotic monsters. Despite the fact that they did indeed embrace the Daedra, I'm having a tough time believing all the stories. Look at their ruins, for instance. The way ES4 portrayed them was a bit repetitive. But still, there was a gentle aesthetic to them. Their art and architecture was not what you would find from a group of savage, brutal, sadistic barbarians, but suggested a very refined culture that had an appreciation for graceful, gently beauty. Could it be that the Ayleids weren't the 'baddies' that they've been portrayed to be?

plain cosmos
#

The Ayleid were not a cohesive nation. They were a collection of city states, each with distinct customs, predilections and aims.

Particularly, just prior to the Alessian revolt, they had fought a civil war between Ayleid and Daedric factions, with the Daedra supporters winning. They defeated Aedra worshippers actually ended up supporting Alessia.

However, even one of Meridia's Ayleid champions admits that they were not the kindest people. And they did mistreat their slaves quite often.

#

As a general rule, however, TES has been increasingly on the... 'Elves are the bad guys' kick for whatever reason.

plain cosmos
#

It's difficult to spin slavery, and Gut Gardens, in any sort of positive light... Though chances are, it was mostly their nobility engaging in the latter.

fathom jewel
# plain cosmos It's difficult to spin slavery, and Gut Gardens, in any sort of positive light.....

That's what I mean, though - I'm just wondering if things like the Gut Gardens were just propaganda from their enemies. I have some of the same thoughts regarding the Snow Elves. Allegedly they attacked and massacred teh Saarthal inhabitants in order to capture the Eye of Mundus and to get rid of a growing Nord presence. But is that the real story? Could it be that they were actually on the receiving end of a Nord invasion of their lands and the Eye had already been used against them, and their attack on Saarthal was not a genocidal massacre of a city, but the elimination of an enemy fort? Look at their architecture and the few examples of art in the Forgotten Vale - again, that's not the kind of work one normally sees from bloodthirsty savages.

sharp lantern
#

And there's an Ayleid ruin in ESO where you can hear Ayleids from the past talk about literal gut gardening.

sharp lantern
# fathom jewel That's what I mean, though - I'm just wondering if things like the Gut Gardens w...

I personally see a lot of reason for the Nords to be the agressor:

  1. If the Falmer wanted to exterminate the Nords, they wouldn't have taken one of them (Ahzidal) on as an apprentice for their magics.
  2. The Nords at the time of the Return were still strong followers of the Dragon Cult - which was not exactly a benevolent belief system, assuming they followed the same beliefs as their dragon overlords.
  3. The Nords swore blood vengeance upon the kin of Auri-El upon the death of Shor.
  4. The Atmorans had already exterminated the Aldmer of Atmora.
  5. This one is kind of hard to verify - but it is stated in Imperial Report on Saarthal that strategically important parts of the city were ignored, which would be odd if the Falmer were looking for total conquest.
  6. The Nords pretty much erased all trace of the Falmer having even ever lived in Skyrim.
fathom jewel
fathom jewel
sharp lantern
gaunt bear
fathom jewel
pastel sorrel
#

The empire was stabilizing by the time of TES4 compared to what it'd been like, the Imperial Simulacrum was a full decade of actual intentional sabotage on Tharn's part, that's not something that just wraps up overnight

#

When Ocato was potentate post-TES4, he was actually said to be doing a good job pulling things back together until his assassination.

plain cosmos
# pastel sorrel I'm not sure what you're going on about

Of course you aren't.

The Empire was in a state of near collapse in TES4. It's infrastructure was in shambles, it's politics actively suspected the Emperor's heirs of being imposters, and it was barely able to police its own borders.

On top of that, the decisions we see Ocato make in Oblivion it's self are objectively terrible. Like, suicidally terrible.

Was the intent for Ocato to come out the other side looking like an incompetent fop and the Empire's heartland to look like a rundown slum? Probably not, but Mankar probably wasn't supposed to look like a raving madman either. In the end though, intentions are irrelevant.

plain cosmos
#

The only way for Ocato to be viewed as a competent leader is if you actively ignore the decisions he makes, or correct them to fit with the line we are told.

And CORRECTING MISTAKES is a fundamentally dangerous precedence.

plain cosmos
sharp lantern
#

We know close to nothing about Ocato as a ruler. Most of Cyrodiil's counts commended Ocato for his skill in statesmanship though.

plain cosmos
# gaunt bear I say that Sarthaal actually happened quite differently than what you say happen...

I'm generally of the same mind.

Ultimately, there's no way to accept the standard explanation while reconciling the continued presence of the Eye in Sarthaal, that doesn't make either the Nords, the Falmer, or both, into generally incompetent civilisations.

It makes more sense, and doesn't directly slander any of the belligerents, if it's a spiraling overreaction to the discovery of the eye.

#

And that's without even really dealing with the fact that, at the end of the day, the Atmorans were colonists invading Falmer lands. The circumstances of that invasion are irrelevant, it doesn't make them not invaders.

Under similar circumstances in the real world, the Falmeri reaction would be entirely understandable. Not applauded, of course, but also not universally condemned and spun as them being jealous and evil.

fathom jewel
#

What was the Eye doing there in the first place? Did Magnus just forget it was there, like misplacing his car keys? This is exacty why the Aedra and Daedra shouldn't be allowed to have nice things.

plain cosmos
#

We aren't sure. We aren't sure if the Atmorans found it there, or brought it there. We aren't sure why it exists in the first place. And we aren't even actually sure if it IS related to Magnus.

plain cosmos
#

The most reliable claim we have regarding its origin is from the Augur of Dunlain, but... Well, we don't exactly know where his information is coming from. His previous interaction with Ancano could have informed his nomenclature.

fathom jewel
#

The Psijics as well. And it's not necessarily secure with them. After all, wasn't Mannimarco a psijic (or at least one of their students) long ago? The Psijics are not guaranteed to be impartial, pure, and possessing perfect judgement and a sense of justice.

glacial scarab
#

The Orb is unknown even its name is not known to the Psijics as they default to what someone at the College called it.

plain cosmos
#

It's physical similarity to the Staff of Magnus can't be taken as explicit either. It's changed looks over the years, and we can't be quite sure how much is just art design, and how much is deeper. It's possible it simply took that form due to the proximity of the Eye.

Still, I am personally inclined to think the Eye is somehow related to Magnus.

gaunt bear
#

Something else I got planned for my Dragon Age: The Lost Scrolls fanfiction is this:

Due to the Breach (||https://dragonage.fandom.com/wiki/The_Breach||), and Thedas and Mundus getting “hooked together”, part of Martin’s sacrifice has been undone (no more than 25%). While this is still keeping the Aedra and Daedra out of Thedas and Mundus, it’s causing all kinds of problems on its own.

First off, it’s causing all kinds of new magical energies to pervade the Mortal Realm, thereby allowing new magics to be developed. While the Synod might or might not try cozying up to the Inquisition (partly because several ancient artifacts from Late Merethic to Early First Age (I.E. the Dragon War) have been discovered and recovered by the Inquidition), the College of Whispers will undoubtedly be more interested in demon-binding magics.

#

Also because of the Breach, the Dovah (and Dovahkiin, by extension) are becoming more powerful. The Dovah’s original powers are becoming stronger and they’re also developing new ones.

fathom jewel
# plain cosmos It's physical similarity to the Staff of Magnus can't be taken as explicit eithe...

Well, it seems Lorkhan lost his heart and Magnus may have lost his Eye. Who knows what other junk has been abandoned around the planes by the Aedra and Daedra. In fact, somebody with ambition might put their mind to collecting this stuff, along with (maybe) the wreckage of Numidium (assuming it's still to be found somewhere) and Akulakhan (if a way could be found to extract it from the tons of rock under which it's buried.) It might take a raid on Artaeum in significant force to gather up all the goodies they may have been accumulating as well.

#

Anybody who could collect such items would have tremendous power.

plain cosmos
#

I mean... That's a piece of anatomy...

summer yacht
#

and inappropriate

plain cosmos
#

Not gonna argue with the rules I guess. I'll forget the joke then.

plain cosmos
fathom jewel
# plain cosmos The Akulakhan, for its part, was never completed. I doubt there's any actual pow...

It might be just junk. But if it was near completion (a big If) and it wasn't too badly banged up from being buried (another big If), someone might find it useful, if (again) that someone could get their hands on it. Of course, it might be more productive to figure out a way to sneak onto Artaeum when it's actually in Mundus and pilfer as many of the collected Psijic toys as you can....right there is an entire title - ES7, maybe.

plain cosmos
proven moss
#

Yeah, and we know the influence of the heart wanes over time without close contact

#

So there probably isn't much magic in those bones by now

#

... if there is anything left of them

fathom jewel
#

ok, so Akulakahn is lost and otherwise useless, except for maybe the blueprints (if there are any.)

glacial scarab
#

Cut content wise you were meant to get the Numidiums plans for the Legion but that's cut content so can't work.

lethal holly
#

If someone gets killed by a summoned Daedra do they get sent to a realm of Oblivion

#

For example if I summon a Dremora to kill Ulfric does his soul head to the Deadlands (or some other plane of Oblivion) ooor…

pastel sorrel
#

Not unless they do something specifically to soultrap them or whatnot.

fathom jewel
shell basin
fathom jewel
#

Why are the Aedra leaving around body parts while the Daedra content themselves with purposefully distributing various artifacts? More and more, the Aedra look foolish compared to the Daedra.

gaunt bear
plain cosmos
fathom jewel
#

Based on that excerpt above, I'm wondering if ES6 will include a visitation of Hammerfell by Vivec.

gaunt bear
#

Speaking of Vivec, I’ve got something planned for him in my Dragon Age: The Lost Scrolls fanfiction:

In the prologue, Tarin (My Nerevarine) forgives Vivec and receives Wraithguard in return. After Dagoth Ur’s death, Vivec is sentenced to join the Grey Wardens as penance for his role in Nerevar’s death.

It’s because of his status as an ex-divinity that enables him to sense that the Calling that’s affecting the Grey Wardens in Orlais is feeling a bit… off.

Don’t worry, I’ve got a fitting end planned for him. I just don’t want to spoil it for you.

#

Any questions or comments?

plain cosmos
#

Vivec deserves the same fate as the rest of his ilk. Death.

gaunt bear
brisk perch
#

I think they left his fate ambiguous, but is probably dead or as close to dead as they can be, or at least dead from a story perspective.

plain cosmos
#

They left it ambiguous because it's ultimately up to the player whether or not Vivec dies. His death is actually required for any of the games stories.

So instead of picking a canon, they dodge the question. Same as will likely happen with the Civil War.

Because ultimately, mutually exclusive choices are utterly meaningless.

fathom jewel
#

Undecided questions such as the winner of the skyrim civil war or the ultimate fate of Vivec can be answered later on - if whatever story is told that involves the resolution of the question is skillfully written (I know....not holding my breath.) For instance: maybe the stormcloaks win, but later on skyrim and cyrodiil re-engage and unite in the face of the Thalmor threat. Or, maybe the Imperials win, but due to increased pressure from the Thalmor, are nonetheless unable to hold onto Skyrim, which winds up independent anyway. Again - telling the story is what matters, because if it's told well, everyone can be at least partially satisfied with the ultimate outcome.

#

For my part, I'd prefer that skyrim break free and focus on rebuilding their own slummy province rather than bother other people. I'd also prefer the thalmor to reconquer the imperial city and for the Empire to fall, followed by the Thalmor losing control of Cyrodiil (which breaks up into nedic and colovian 'city states'), Elsweyr and Valenwood, due to exhaustion, overextension and pressure from the Maormer, Sload and Redguards. All the empire-aspirants need a good drubbing.

plain cosmos
#

I'd like to see the Stormcloaks 'win' with the death of Tullius. Then General Decianus is recalled from retirement and sent north, and puts every single traitor to the sword, lining the roads from Whiterun to Windhelm with their gibbeted carcasses.

#

Meanwhile, General Ionna in Cyrodiil uncovers the Elder Councils role in the assassination of Titus Mede II, resulting in the Empire being plunged into a civil war between factions over the consequences.

fathom jewel
#

That would be an interesting outcome. Reason: the Thalmor might look upon Cyrodiil and Skyrim and conclude that not only do they not need to resume the war, but they really would prefer to keep their interactions with skyrim and cyrodiil at a minimum. 😉

plain cosmos
#

Let the primitives kill eachother.

#

But also... Gimmie my Augustus!

#

I want the dubious heir of the murdered Emperor to initially side with the Elder Council, just to whip around and depose them when they least expect it.

sweet plume
plain cosmos
#

You don't even need them if you tell decent stories.

fathom jewel
#

I'm still betting the BGS is at least considering giving Vivec a cameo (or even a more significant role) in ES6. It's not just his 'lessons' and all his talk about snakes eating their own tales and such. I've also read that he had some sort of 'Sword-not-in-hand' and may have had an encounter of some sort with Cyrus the Redguard. I can't guarantee he'll be in the game, or whether he'll be alive or dead (appearing as a shade or in a vision or something.) But I'll bet they've been mulling it over.

plain cosmos
#

I doubt we'll see him.

Cyrus, on the other hand, I would definitely bring back if I were writing it ..

uncut hatch
#

I am an elder scrolls lore noob, can anyone explain to me, why is Boethiah's Pillow Book from Morrowind, a sex book (akin to the Kama Sutra)?

proven moss
#

Why? For laughs?

uncut hatch
proven moss
#

For laughs

#

For fun

#

Or maybe to instruct people

uncut hatch
fathom jewel
#

Since we are discussing lore: I'm wondering how the Alik'r will be treated in ES6. Will they be like the Bedu, the Tuareg, the Tartars, or something else entirely?

urban prairie
#

Do we ever find out how many dragons returned during the skyrim timeline?

#

100s?1000s?

fathom jewel
#

My guess is in the 100s. They're huge creatures and magical, so it would probably be impossible to have thousands of them around - no tribe would survive for long as a free tribe, or even survive at all.

#

I am hopeful that in ES6 dragons aren't an important part of the title. If we see them flying around on occasion, fine. But I don't want to fight them or interact with them. We should be done with dragons.

pastel sorrel
topaz dome
fathom jewel
# topaz dome I would be very surprised if we see either Dragons or Shouts in TES VI.

Please - no shouts. They were great fun in Skyrim. But enough. Besides, how could we possibly learn any? The Last Dragonborn had a blood-based understanding of dragon-speak, but anyone who was not dragonborn that wanted to learn had to spend years with the Greybeards. I just don't see how shouts could then be in ES6. Even Word Walls wouldn't work for the PC. I'd guess that we might get access to some Nordic armor and weaponry in Dragonstar, but I doubt there will be anything else in ES6 that will echo anything in Skyrim.

#

I'm pretty sure we'll see quite a few curved swords, though.....😉

plain cosmos
#

I could see Fus becoming a Nordic racial power, but nothing more than that.

eternal rivet
plain cosmos
#

If they're looking for powers, they need to be better integrated than they were in Starfield. No explanation, no narrative function, just... 'You get cool space magic now'.

And the Thu'um simply lacks that narrative element outside of Skyrim.

#

That's not to say there isn't narrative foundations for mechanical implementations of powers. Sword Singing in Hammerfell, Shape Shifting in Valenwood, psychedelic drug trips in Elsweyr, etc.

fathom jewel
#

I think we'll 'see' dragons as well - but in an extremely limited way. I remember reading somewhere about a dragon held captive in Dragonstar at the dividing point between the Redguard and Nord halves of the city. I can imagine also seeing 2-3 dragons flying around the tops of completely inaccessible mountain peaks scattered around HF. They'd just be seen floating around at a great distance, with no possibility of interaction - something other than a cloud drifting across the sky. Maybe we'll hear a very distant dragon roar every once in a while. If we actually get the chance to revive a dwemer airship, maybe occasionally a dragon will come by while we're flying, take a look, and leave. But that would be it. Dragons would serve as a kind of very sparse 'window dressing' for the game.

fathom jewel
#

A lore question: why is the Imperial City called by such a lame name? Couldn't any of the tribes have come up with something more interesting?

plain cosmos
#

It's also known as Cyrodiil City, but in all likelihood it was renamed from whatever not-lame name it had to The Imperial City during the Reman Dynasty.

#

Because the Remans definitely rolled with that kind of ego.

#

'We're so awesome that we're going to rename our capital after our ETERNAL EMPIRE!'.

Proceeds to die out after 3 generations.

glacial scarab
#

We don't know the Ayleid name for the city just the Imperial one which we have Cyrodiil City from TES3 and I think PGE1 maps?

#

Though with PGE1/TES3 era Imperials were also called Cyrodiil. Which isn't an issue as both are better then just "Imperial"

fathom jewel
raw grail
#

"Imperial City" in ayleid

glacial scarab
#

You mean Ayleid City. With Cyrodiil Umaril on the throne.

pastel sorrel
# fathom jewel A lore question: why is the Imperial City called by such a lame name? Couldn't a...

The Imperial City of Cyrodiil is a pretty historical way of naming. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperial_City,_Beijing

Imperial City, Beijing

The Imperial City (Chinese: 北京皇城; pinyin: Běijīng Huángchéng; lit. 'Beijing Imperial City') is a section of the city of Beijing in the Ming and Qing dynasties, with the Forbidden City at its center. It refers to the collection of gardens, shrines, and other service areas between the Forbidden City and the Inner City of ancient Beijing. The Imper...

#

It's the Imperial City of the Empire, nothing wrong with them naming it that.

fathom jewel
#

But China's imperial city is within Beijing. It's basically a very, very big property for the Emperor. The actual city of which the Imperial City is a part is called Beijing. With that in mind: I think a decent name for the city might be Topal.

pastel sorrel
#

and of course, Rome was the imperial city of the Roman Empire

#

The IC has been referred to as Cyrodiil City so that's possibly its technical name, but everybody knows it and refers to it as the Imperial City, because that's what it is.

plain cosmos
#

Given the presence of names like High Rock, and Black Marsh, I don't think anyone should be surprised by the Imperial City.

fathom jewel
#

Maybe if we ever get to Akavir, we'll get the same sort of super-imaginative place-names, such as a large prairie called Big Grass, an inland sea called Inland Sea and so forth..... 😉

plain cosmos
#

Woah now, may be setting the bar a bit too high there lad.

brisk perch
#

TBH, I'm looking forward to people getting some new lore on Monday, too.

sweet plume
brisk perch
sweet plume
fathom jewel
brisk perch
pastel sorrel
#

Even the most exotic-sounding name most likely has a mundane translation, and is indeed mundane to the locals.

sweet plume
#

https://youtu.be/Ln_JKVL1i6U?si=CE-GHZdl4Ajq1miP

YouTube
Imperial Knowledge
The Legendary Sea Serpents of Tamriel - The Elder Scrolls Lore

Hope you enjoy this video about Sea Serpents!

Reccomended further watches:
Video about Sea Monsters: https://youtu.be/TLBqEJ74mW0

If you enjoy the content, check the channel for more lore & consider subscribing!

Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/ImperialKnowledge
Join the discord group (Working Link): https://discord.gg/Sws9gJGUM8
Instagram...

▶ Play video
shell basin
topaz dome
#

Pratchett was a fan of the Elder Scrolls. He contributed dialogue to Emma's Vilja Companion mod for Oblivion and Skyrim.

pastel sorrel
#

before doing scientific research on the common brown bear, the Ursus arctos (Latin and Greek respectively for bear bear)

#

And then taking a vacation in Tokyo (eastern capital) and Seoul (capital)

#

and I'll even check out Beijing (northern capital)

plain cosmos
#

It's almost like language is entirely made up or something.

pastel sorrel
#

language is based on meat

plain cosmos
#

Flapping, wet meat, artfully dodging enamel knives.

fathom jewel
#

I've spent a bit of time today looking up the names of famous cities worldwide, including their meaning. It's been downright unsettling. "Place with trees", "Place by flowing water", etc....

brisk perch
#

I do not consider it unsettling, it makes sense to give names to entities that people will remember.

fathom jewel
#

Just sayin', man 🙂

pastel sorrel
#

Afghanistan, "Land of the Afghans"

fathom jewel
#

Not 'place where afghans are'? 😉

pastel sorrel
brisk perch
#

Translations are approximations, since the wording and meaning can be lost in translation. This was even covered in TES with why Woodland Man might be a mistranslation of a Man of the Wilds, or something along those lines, though then again, Altmora, the old woods, is Atmora.

plain cosmos
#

Another really good real world example of the approximate nature of translations is the development and spread of colour concepts.

The vast, VAST majority of cultures have fewer colour expressions than we do. Even just in terms of major colour groups, anything beyond Red and Green tended to be developed, linguistically, much much later. But that doesn't mean those colours weren't expressed, they simply weren't give abstract names.

So instead of blue, it may have been 'colour of a clear sky'. Which we then TRANSLATE to Blue because it's relatable to what is being expressed.

#

A really good fictional example is the Aeldari word, Rhiantha. Commonly translated, it means 'Mourner', but literally, it means 'the starlight which shines upon the water of Rhidhol in the winter'. Because it is strictly referential to an Aeldari historical event. It's mentioned they have about a dozen other words which are translatable for Mourner, though all are distinct in their specific cultural reference, and mean something unique to an Aeldari.

sweet plume
#

https://youtu.be/6V3SSlcry0Q?si=J1uShyKresNjZRsp

YouTube
Bethesda Softworks
The Elder Scrolls Online - Scions of Ithelia Gameplay Trailer

Prove your strength to Malacath and defend a demiplane of Oblivion in the Scions of Ithelia dungeon DLC. Venture into two perilous PvE dungeons, Oathsworn Pit and Bedlam Veil, and discover all-new stories, challenges, and rewards.

The Scions of Ithelia dungeon DLC arrives March 11 on PC/Mac and March 26 for Xbox and PlayStation consoles.

Offi...

▶ Play video
#

More Lore!

plain cosmos
#

That spider thing A: looks awesome, and B: looks awfully crystalline. Further reinforcing suspicions about Ithelia's relationship to Jyggalag...

sweet plume
#

The spider thing is a Nightmare creature associated with Vaermina, which means there may be some possession aspects in play by Ithelia

plain cosmos
#

Ah, less awesome for Ithelia. But much more awesome for Vaermina.

sweet plume
#

I still gotta wait till March 26 to play it but I’m looking forward to learning the new lore introduced

pastel sorrel
#

The accompanying Loremaster's Archive that just came out clarified that scions aren't necessarily borne of their associated princes

#

That is one of Vaermina's daedra, but they've been adopted by Ithelia as a scion, so they're hers now.

plain cosmos
#

Indeed. It's more of a mutually approved relationship rather than a direct biological lineage.

#

Either way though, I love me some inhuman abominations. Give me Edge of Tommorw Mimics instead of humanoids with horns, any day.

pastel sorrel
#

[Prey (2016) intensifies]

sweet plume
#

Meaning he changed allegiances later on

pastel sorrel
#

Several daedra from Battlespire and TES3 who served different princes appear in ESO under Bal's command

#

allegiances change among the daedra

#

they may be rigid in certain nature, but they're very protean in others.

plain cosmos
#

I mean, I don't know why it required a Loremaster's Archive to even address. It was kind of a given, since Birth was more of a mortal adaptation to Mundus than an explicit rule of the Aurbis.

But at least it was addressed.

pastel sorrel
#

Well it was in context of Fa-Nuit-Hen being a demiprince

sweet plume
#

I think Fruit when I see his name lol

plain cosmos
#

Yeah, but just given the contexts I thought it was obvious that his origins were more colocated than just being a biological child.

pastel sorrel
#

and with his nature as a scion of Boethiah, it doesn't mean it was Boethiah who actually sired him. He's a demiprince of someone though.

plain cosmos
#

Or that he even HAD a Sire.

sweet plume
shell basin
#

I always wonder how things are going to be retconned given that ESO is a prequel, and therefore if they introduce new Daedra that are not known to later ages, they're going to have to write them out of the story, so that they can be absent from the knowledge of the Third and Fourth Ages.

||This is as true for Lyranth (Dremora who ended up stealing a significant amount of the power that Dagon invested in the "Four Ambitions", during the "Blackwood" and "Deadlands" content - as it is for Ithelia. Since Lyranth became more powerful during the Deadlands story, I wonder if she will pop up again sometime, and if so, how and where...||

fathom jewel
#

If these 'servant daedroth' (or whatever the best term is) can switch allegiances, it implies a certain level of independence and perhaps differing agendas. This suggests to me that maybe certain 'tribes' of daedroth might strike out on their own, maybe even moving to the plane of Mundus and populating some region or area to build a society of their own. As odd as this may sound, I think I might like seeing that happen in a future title.

gaunt bear
#

I’m trying to decide on some new abilities for the Dragonborn for my Dragon Age: The Lost Scrolls fanfiction. Since Thedas and Mundus are now “hooked together”, I’ve already got that the Dragonborn draws spirits of the Fade to him like flies to * bleep *, sometimes really unusual ones…

Dragonborn: Like the one who showed me this memory of one of Tiber Septim’s less-than-stellar campaigns into Valenwood (with Tiber Septim having that crazy, golden hairdo) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KyEuN_cQdlo

YouTube
BoBoBo-Bo Bo-BoBo Clips
Watch Out For That Tunnel!!!

Subscribe If You Want More Daily BoBoBo-Bo Bo-BoBo Clips, To (Hopefully) Make You Laugh or Chuckle Once Per Day

▶ Play video
plain cosmos
#

Even if you take the largest estimates of Tamriel, at 12m square miles, that's still a LOT going on all at once. Even for a full sized planet, the number of crises ongoing in the same year would begger belief.

gaunt bear
#

Maybe the ESO timeline can be “ended” with a Dragon Break, but that’s just a thought.

sweet plume
#

Don’t know why they insist on Play in Any Order

plain cosmos
#

It's one of those situations where dogmatic adherence to the 'modus operandi' of the franchise is actively detrimental.

sweet plume
plain cosmos
#

They should have just taken the WoW approach and used real time.

As is, taking the FF14 approach makes it so your world is effectively a barren hellscape at this point. There's no way to reasonably explain crisis after crisis not decimating the population.

sweet plume
plain cosmos
#

It starts 5 years after a calamity involving releasing Bahamut, an event which triggers climate shift and kills tens of thousands in minutes.

This leads to an upsurge in Beastman attacks on the city states, and multiple settlements being lost.

Then the culmination of a thousand year war between the city of Ishgard and the Dragons of the north.

Then a major war against Garlemald. Fought on at least 3 fronts (one of which goes very poorly off screen).

Then an existential crisis involving the awakening of a god and the triggering of a universe destroying song of anti-life you have to stop.

All within a single year. And thats not even counting the side stuff, like the alien design killing mech running amok, an entire island exploding with magic, attempted political assassinations...

Oh, right, and Hell invading.

#

ESO suffers from a similar timeline problem. Because of their dogmatic adherence to 'Do it in any order', and the structural demands of integrating that mentality into the narrative, there's just way too much going on in a very short period of time.

glacial scarab
#

ESO is like a fantasy version of the crisis of the third century.
A Crisis of the Sixth Century? I've forgotten ESOs date because it really doesn't come up much since they won't let the years continue on.

sweet plume
#

So yes, 6th Century.

plain cosmos
#

Rome didn't exactly suffer from alien invasions and attempted global apocalypse though

glacial scarab
#

Well that's the fantasy aspect.

plain cosmos
#

Fair. Though I think the Alliance War alone would qualify for the Crisis of the 3rd Century. Everything else is just excessive piling in such a short time period.

sweet plume
#

So we are essentially preventing a crisis from going into “This is really bad, everyone is dying” Mode

plain cosmos
#

True, but localised crises all at once usually has a similar sort of impact as one massive crisis.

#

Even spread out over 2 decades, like WoW, you start stretching credulity with so many critical events and major conflicts.

But that largely plays into the usual 'Writers don't understand Scale' issues that frankly plague Fantasy as a whole.

fathom jewel
#

This brings up a thought. All of Mundus seems to be composed of tribes that are constantly at war with each other, with the only variables being frequency and intensity. The tribes themselves also have their internal schisms which are governed by the same two variables. (Bear with me here, I'm making some very sweeping generalizations.)

#

Everywhere we go, we see layers of ruins. These ruins are the remnants of tribes which once populated an area that were subsequently driven out, others are what remains of genocided tribes (including one suicide, it seems), and still others are the faded glory of tribes which peaked and then declined. I'm wondering - which of these tribes have, over time, demonstrated the lowest values for these variables and have been the most stable (relatively speaking) over the history of Mundus?

plain cosmos
#

The Dunmer, as far as we can tell. They've been largely insular and have only really fought off attackers, rather than actively pursuing violence against others, for the better part of 2000 years by ESO.

Minus the slavers of course.

fathom jewel
pastel sorrel
#

They've always been able to change allegiances, we're just not in the loop about the details, dynamics and consequences by and large.

pastel sorrel
#

Each game's introduced new daedra, ESO is nothing out of the ordinary

#

There's possibly infinite varieties of daedra out there

plain cosmos
#

Though, I do wish they'd explore the inherent inhumanity of Daedra a bit more. All we get are shallow allusions to their different perspectives, and mocking dismissals of particular mortal concepts. We never get something juicy.

#

Give me a Thirianna-Witnesses-Shipbuilding moment.

gaunt bear
plain cosmos
#

An event that occurs in Path of the Seer, a Warhammer 40k novel. The main character, Thirianna, has to confront her father over her abandonment issues in order to unlock a particular rune (whole other long explanation for that) she needs to progress as a Seer. Following her mother's death, her Father had taken the Path of the Shipwright, and subsequently basically lost all interest in parenting.

While speaking to him, and he tries to explain how his love for her simply couldn't compare to the passion for his work. He still loves her, but his work transcends parental love. Something that SEEMS really harsh. But he convinces Thirianna to stay while they 'build' the keel of a new ship, so she can hopefully understand.

When the Shipwrights summon the section of hull into existence, it causes Thirianna to break down and cry. Not because of disappointment, but because she is witnessing a literal act of creation, the shaping of thought into physical reality. The Eldar Shipwrights construct the Wraithbone Hulls of their ships out of raw psychic energy, literally creating matter and shaping it like a living thing.

While she still bears some personal resentment for her father's abandonment, she gains an understanding for why he lost interest. Because mere biology can't compare to something like that.

#

This sort of radical perspective should exist with things like Daedra. Things which can shape their own beings into a myriad of forms, who are beyond death, and whose minds can be condensed or expanded in ways a Mortal's limited biology couldn't possibly imagine.

In many ways, the Daedra are TOO human. TOO mundane. Despite being inherently removed from the plane of the mundane: Mundus.

#

Give me a Daedra that struggles to understand why mortals don't enjoy pain. Give me a Daedra that simply does not understand Death. Give me a Daedra hyper fascinated with biology and biological functions..

dapper river
#

I mean, the creation of vampires and manbeasts, etc., can arguably be them doing just this.

plain cosmos
#

Actually, playing it up with a Vampire could be interesting... Have them viewing mortals as the butt of a cosmic joke, after having experienced a taste of what they were BEFORE working with Lorkhan.

fathom jewel
#

What if there was an ancient vampire who saw BOTH sides of the equation - in other words, daedric and mortal perspectives? That might be a very, very interesting person with which to engage.

gaunt bear
fathom jewel
# gaunt bear Maybe as an antihero.

Even better. I could see such an NPC providing perspective to the PC in ES6 on issues such as the Hiradirge, old Yokuda, the Far Shores and so forth. In fact...maybe that vampire could be a sinistral Elf.

plain cosmos
#

Unless you subscribe to the (IMO terrible) idea that the Sinistral Mer never actually existed, and the Left-handers were just other Yokudanan.

sweet plume
#

Because the whole battle with those particular Elves have stemmed from that Location primarily while other encounters merely followed to High Isle between them and the Yokudans, who basically wiped them out along the way of sailing to Hammerfell

plain cosmos
#

Given how Elves have been handled over the last two decades, if they WERE Elves, they were almost certainly slaving torturers and despots who preyed on the innocent Yokudan people.

Because who needs nuance when you can just get a humanocentric cheerleader.

sweet plume
#

We saw Sea Elves who are not on board with Orgum’s hatred for High Elves and we also see two of them as part of the Dragonguard in Elsweyr.

plain cosmos
#

Oh, absolutely but the trend has very much been, on a sociological level, Elves Bad. Men Good.

#

And honestly, I'm kinda sick of it.

sweet plume
plain cosmos
#

Even Skyrim has individual elves who aren't terrible. But there's been a very clear trend to make Elven societies inherently predatory, egotistical and cruel. From the Ayleids to the Dwemer to the Falmer.

The Left-handers, if they even end up being Elves at all, are likely to just end up another victim of the racially prejudiced writing for Mer in the setting.

#

Of course, it doesn't help that now we have the Yokudans and Left-handers as the only known Man-Elf group to explore, and making the Yokudans the bad guys is a PR minefield.

fathom jewel
#

I'd be very curious to explore the sinistral elf society. I would also love to see the Altmer shift gears and, instead of trying to rule or dominate thru conquest or exerting some other sort of political/military hegemony, that they instead start to LEAD and set an example for others to follow. In my thinking, that's their natural role.

plain cosmos
#

To their minds that's exactly what they've done. And yet...

Numidium.

sweet plume
brisk perch
sweet plume
#

Her way of ruling, while not exactly how the race of Man would want, would at least not enslave them and still give them rights.

plain cosmos
#

Considering what Men are in this setting, and the actual historical trends they exhibit (despite the constant whitewashing) they still wouldn't accept it.

Humans in TES are Lorkhans armies. They exist to destroy and subjugate. And every instance where there are survivors of their onslaught, they are revealed for the invading oppressors that they really are.

sweet plume
plain cosmos
#

More often than not, they simply want to be left alone.

#

Morrowind, Summerset, Valenwood, the Falmer, the Orsimer. All were largely isolationist who generally avoided confrontation with other powers, and simply opted to protect their borders.

Humans have always been the ones determined to invade and bring others into THEIR fold.

#

Even the Ayleids seemed to settle more than invade. If lands were already settled, they largely avoided them.

Only the Direnni seemed to really make the attempt to seize control of an already settled territory

#

This would make sense if Mer are, in fact, conditionally reproductive, as there population growth would be conditioned specifically to prevent the sorts of population conflicts which lately drive migration and expansion.

If there's open land, they can move into it, but if it's populated already than Merish reproduction would literally slow down to make invasion unreasonable.

#

Of course, lets be real. They can't even actually stick to a approach for lifespans with Mer, let alone reproductive characteristics.

sweet plume
#

Which is ridiculous when you think about it

#

But at the same time the need to make everything perfect is there.

plain cosmos
#

Yeah. Like... A 300-400 year LIFE EXPECTANCY is one thing. But a 400 year LIFESPAN means that over 70% of Mer with known ages are the Elven equivalent of Centenarians. A population which, in modern Western centuries equates to 0.001% of the population.

Which is just... Absolute nonsense.

#

But that's sorta indicative of a whole bunch of other writing and worldbuilding issues.

plain cosmos
#

Anyway, enough bemoaning the terrible writing again for me tonight.

robust lintel
#

Let TES be TES 🙏 subjective flaws can be part of the charm. If every game out there used the same systems or mechanics, etc. idk, it just sounds awfully boring to me.

plain cosmos
#

Mechanics and setting, yes.

My problem is, the lore and setting aren't really TES. Or, at least, have pushed TES more and more towards the generic side of things.

Morrowind defined the setting as it's own thing. Oblivon course corrected back into bland, generic 'Fantasy' and it's struggled with identity ever since.

ZOS does what it can, but is still burdened with that blandification.

plain cosmos
#

When one looks at various Fantasy settings that have established their identities, it becomes difficult to seperate those settings from that identity.

You can change every name in Warhammer, and still instantly recognise a High Elf, or a Skaven, or an Empire State Trooper.

You can rename every monster in Dungeons and Dragons, and still know a Mindflayer, a Red Dragon, and a Beholder.

You can make up some new title for everything in Warcraft, and still only see Orcs and Night Elves and Tauren. I mean, hell, Tauren alone have become so defined that they have entirely shed the mantle of 'Minotaurs' and now when people try to define tribal Minotaur cultures they're often compared TO Tauren.

TES started to build this identity with Morrowind. It started to stand on its own two legs, be it's own thing, forge its own presence.

But then it just slipped back into the crowd. It started to define its world and cultures by memes, instead of making them clear and unique. It abandoned Concepts for the sake of Simplicity, and it's suffered for that.

You could take Oblivion, and Skyrim, change all the names, and just drop them in any other generic fantasy settings. There's nothing in them that is definitively, concisely, The Elder Scrolls. There's nothing that even links them together, assume from literal self-referential statements.

And that's a major loss.

#

I could speculate on the cause of this, but ultimately the cause is irrelevant. Addressing the problem is what's important.

Go back to concept. Don't be burdened by past representations or easily recognisable memes. Look at what the world, the peoples, and the ecosystems are built around and follow those ideas to their natural conclusions.

Define a WORLD that is distinct and it's own thing. Don't chase goal posts, don't try to mimic the latest hotness, don't single in on individual influences. Hell, put things up on a board and throw darts, to see what new combinations come out.

Embrace that identity, don't resent it. Battlespire and Redguard and Morrowind constructed and defined a fundamentally magical world. And then Oblivion seemed to actively reject Magic as an influence, leaning hard on the mundane and 'low fantasy'. You've got nonsense like 'If magic disappeared no one would notice' showing almost a contempt for the very setting that's been made (you know, unless the intent was no one would notice because everyone is dead, since their bodies are literally made of magic).

sweet plume
#

In the sense they tend to go more out there.

plain cosmos
#

Bethesda doesn't. ZOS certainly has, but for BGS, they're basically just Tabaxi

sweet plume
plain cosmos
#

And given Imperials and Nords, I think an optimistic expecting for a BGS game in Elsweyr would be Cat India.

#

Which is a shame, because every single one of these peoples could be iconic and defining. If the effort was made for them, like it was for Dunmer.

fathom jewel
plain cosmos
#

Think, landsknecht meets Holy Roman Empire and you've basically got it.

fathom jewel
#

Regarding the rest of your statement - beautifully said. A thought: Morrowind really set BGS apart. Its combined fantasy/sci-fi/quasi-steampunk weirdness was singular. That was quite possibly the best world-building in the history of video games. Purely on a gut level, I suspect BGS became 'self-conscious' about this afterwards and tried to make Oblivion generic so that it was more 'palatable' to the intended audience. However, I believe such a thought process misses the point of great story-telling. A great story doesn't need to be just like all the others of its kind in order to be relatable; it needs to be written so that there is an underlying theme which speaks to basic, fundamental issues humans commonly face thru life in any place or era. Just to give an example: The 2nd pilot show of Star Trek TOS, called "Where No Man Has Gone Before." The story was very weird - a ship flying faster than light around space, encountering an 'energy barrier' at the edge of the galaxy, and the subsequent effects on two crew members. So much of it was well beyond the experience of any of us, but the story boiled down to this: one of the crewmen turned into an extremely dangerous monster, but that crewman was also very widely liked and was a particularly good friend of the ship commander. What do you do when somebody close to you turns to evil? That was the underlying premise of the story, and was the extremely relatable part. I remember seeing it and finding myself quite moved. So: BGS DOES need to strongly return to 'the weird', like they did in Morrowind, and make ES6 highly unique as a place. But the storytelling must boil down to a problem of 'the human condition', so to speak. I hope the above made some kind of sense.

glacial scarab
plain cosmos
#

Alright, I guess I should have expected that. Synonym it is.

last sage
plain cosmos
#

It's absolutely important to emphasise or explore some element of humanity in the setting, and despite its weirdness, Morrowind was still a very 'Human' story and world.

Part of the issue with Bethesda too, over the last 3 games, is that they very clearly struggle to execute on the 'human' core of the narrative, and express the concept they're trying to explore.

Skyrim was excessively prevaricate, and just refused to really express, let alone properly explore, it's concepts.

Fallout 4 managed to express it's concepts, but refused to really commit.

And Starfield committed, but just handwaved away a lot of details that allow it's exploration of its concept for be grounded and make sense.

And of course, Oblivion was just.. Divine Right Am Greatest! Which... The less I say about that the better.

upper field
#

Well...there's always Elder Scrolls 6.

fathom jewel
# upper field Well...there's always Elder Scrolls 6.

True. Which means that we could very well wind up with redguards portrayed as nords with curved swords and sword singing as a stand-in for the Thu-um. Maybe there will be some sort of equivalent to word walls as well. Perhaps oversized dune rippers or sep adders can stand in for dragons. Or......there's always a chance that ES6 will return to the standard set by ES3. I hope for the latter.

upper field
#

I really hope the latter in terms of writing, but keep evolving the gameplay. ngl, not a big fan of the old table top mechanics.

pastel sorrel
#

The trap of long-ass timespans that don't mean anything that TES fell into like so many other settings is present of course, but the general concept of "these regular-ass people have had to contend with being the gods of their people and the guilt behind their ascension and that's taken a toll over the years" is always a juicy one.

#

And with Dagoth Ur, his inhumanity is still relatable, because he's still trying to do the understandable thing of doing what he thinks is right

#

He is absolutely, intrinsically committed to his beliefs, but you can see where those beliefs came from in his former life; whether he's objectively right or wrong, he thinks he's right and he has reasons for doing so.

#

Not every antagonist has to be Dagoth Ur or the Tribunal of course, but there's crucial aspects of what TES3 was doing that, yeah, the series has been sorely lacking since. ESO has done respectable work in restoring those aspects, but it's still constrained by TES4 and 5.

#

The post-TES4 refactoring should've gone further, and if nothing else TES6 should follow through on its principals of shaking up what the series has been doing. It doesn't mean the lore has to change, but rather how that lore is approached and handled.

#

The Big Dumb Power Fantasy™️ of TES4 and especially 5 is fine in and of itself, but when it's coming off the heels of TES3's worldbuilding and - personally - really not living up to it, it feels so hollow. I'm this powerful figure in a world that doesn't really do anything. So much is abstracted out or forgotten, the people don't have any depth or gravitas. It plays with the Idea™️ of its people but doesn't follow through.

#

It's almost the theme park version of itself. Where's the traditional Nordic totemic religion in TES5, something Ulfric should've incorporated into his movement to give it some more teeth? Where's the 1000 cults of the Imperial City or the Colovia/Nibenay split in TES4? Where's those anxious off-hand remarks of Oblivion looking down at us just as we look up at it in the night sky? What does healthcare look like given the usage of both magic and physical surgery in tandem?

#

These are things that don't necessarily impact direct gameplay, but they are interesting to explore, and they show the follow-through of what life is actually like for people. TESA: Redguard made a good call with Cyrus effectively just being a relatively "normal" guy in this extraordinary situation; he didn't even know who Clavicus Vile was, but we got juicy lore implications through his questioning anyway.

fathom jewel
pastel sorrel
#

Wherever TES6 is, it needs to be weird and confrontational, in whatever way makes sense for its locations. If it's Hammerfell, they've got afroasiatic samurai monks who sunk a continent into the sea with swords made of their own souls, funereal and necromantic dynamics involving the shunned-yet-necessary Ash'abah, political strife that's only recently begun to mend and is still ripe for exploitation, all kinds of cool stuff. I want to know their traditions and philosophies and to see them in action both in terms of rituals and just in the knickknacks of one's own house, I want to see real friction between followers of Tava and Imperial Cult missionaries of Kynareth. These are the kinds of things TES needs right now.

pastel sorrel
#

Hell, imagine an actual debate, like a genuine long-ass debate, found in some corner of a town where people are trying to figure out how Alduin's defeat (assuming this is post-TES5) and even very existence to begin with ties into Redguard theology with the Serpent and Satakal. Something that is ostensibly entirely irrelevant to the gameplay mechanics, but it's there to just sit down and enjoy for those of us who would be so inclined.

#

All surrounded by holy symbols to ward off the Serpent's wrath for those more superstitious. I would write that for free if they asked, because that's the kind of in-depth exploration and integration of the world we need more of.

#

Or an entire series of sermons on Morwha's wiles yet wisdom spoken in the conservatorium in Hegathe.

plain cosmos
#

Not confrontational enough.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. Go full Dune. Make the HoonDing the antagonist. Make tradition and faith and the dogmatic adherence to a sense of identity the driving crisis. Old Solutions result in the same Old Problems, and make it about forcing something new.

Actually give Wulf's words some weight, instead of just puttering around with another 'Uuuh, but the Old Ways will will save us' traditionalist pleasing.

pastel sorrel
#

Oh hell yeah, I can get behind that.

plain cosmos
#

Hammerfell is in a particularly good place for such a story already. Part of their core mythos is that the old ways don't work anymore, and Ruptga told them they would have to find new ways. But they've always fallen back on the traditions and solutions of their ancestors.

Every time they start to veer off course, the HoonDing appears to course correct, reviving the old ways and propping up tradition by turning their focus away and towards an externalized enemy.

Maybe it's time for Ruptga to subtly intervene. To show the Yokudans that they need to bend like reeds in the changing river, rather than cutting their way to another shore.

sweet plume
plain cosmos
#

I deliberately leaned into the Proverb approach to the statement for emphasis.

sweet plume
plain cosmos
#

I'll be honest. Took me longer to think that up, than it took for me to rage-rewrite the Bosmer.

Proverbs are hard.

sweet plume
fathom jewel
pseudo harbor
#

Do the Nine Divines have their own equivalent to the Daedric artifacts?

gaunt bear
brisk perch
#

There are many artifacts associated with various Divine/Aedric entities, just as there are with Daedric, though the classifications are loose and not as consistent for how to classify sufficiently strong spirits, and whether or not they are bound with a Nymic.

fathom jewel
#

The only ones I can think of are the Eye (which you can't exactly carry around in your pocket) and Auriel's Bow. You could say that Mundus is a collective artifact of theirs, and it's clearly a very useful one - just not in the same way as Molag Bal's Mace or Dawnbreaker.

glacial scarab
#

Aedric Artefacts do exist.
Staff of Magnus, Auriel's bow, Stendarr's Hammer, Amulet of Kings and the Brush of Truepaint for example.

The "Eye" is more unknown. The Psijic Order have no idea what that orb is and the name comes from someone at the College of Winterhold and isn't really expanded on that I can recall like why they called it that.

pastel sorrel
#

Brush of Truepaint, Staff of Magnus, Auriel's Bow and Shield, Lord's Mail, Stendarr's Hammer, Chrysamere

#

just to name some of the known ones

glacial scarab
#

Chrysamere isn't Aedric. It's mortal made but not associated with any god.

sweet plume
pastel sorrel
#

Being mortal-made doesn't preclude it from being a godly artifact through later blessing. Many daedric artifacts were mortal-made too.

#

It's possible Chrysamere is more aligned with Nirn's own divinity rather than a specific god, but it is still a known artifact, and it does the same "doesn't stay anywhere for too long" shenanigans.

#

Regardless, there's many others better-known to be aedric artifacts. See also Pelinal's equipment.

glacial scarab
#

There's a few unaligned artifacts like Chrysamere, Dragonbone Mail and the Necromancers Amulet.

abstract ledge
#

I wouldnt clasify chrysamere as aedric yet, just breton made and enhanced overtime

#

If it was blessed, either stendarr or arkay feel the most fitting

sweet plume
#

I’m gonna bring it up again but does Chrysamere being Breton made, make all of you look at the weapon in Older games in a different light? Like would you say it compliments playing as a Breton in games that have it?

abstract ledge
#

Yes, especially morrowind where breton were confirmed to have invented claymores

brisk perch
fathom jewel
#

This raises a question. We can see that the daedric princes grant items to mortals in order for them to serve as their champions. The Aedra seem to do a little of this as well. These items are totems, I guess, as well as tools/instruments/weapons/whatever. But there are other things that these deities could grant - direct powers of magic. There's ice, lightning and fire magic, tonal magic (in multiple forms), and magics for conjuration, restoration and enchanting, as well as several others. Why aren't these deities bestowing such powers directly on their champions?

sweet plume
#

It just occurred to me Some of the Princes embody the 7 Deadly Sins, Sanguine being Lust, Sloth and Gluttony… Dagon and Bal being Wrath.

fathom jewel
sweet plume
#

Heh… Frat Boy

#

Dudes were gonna go and like… Conquer Nirn!

fathom jewel
#

Speaking of the Daedric princes: I was left dissatisfied with the ES5 interactions, excepting Hermaeus Mora. In ES6, I would prefer that all interactions with them - including the Redguard pantheon - include much more extensive and involved questlines. I'd rather not just settle for "Hey, mortal, go do this for me and I'll give you this nasty sword/shield/widget-thing." Let's flesh each one out.

upper field
#

Isn't that basically how it goes though in Elder Scrolls with the start of Morrowind? They save the heavy interaction with a Daedric Prince for the DLC, although idk how much interaction you have with Hircine in MW.

topaz dome
upper field
#

Fair.

topaz dome
pastel sorrel
#

we're just doing them favours and getting rewards in return

sinful sail
#

I always wondered if the f word exists in the elder scrolls universe

pastel sorrel
#

probably

upper field
#

I'm sure that not only does it exist, but there are variations of it from the different languages in the ES universe. XD

glacial scarab
#

There's a few curse words used but I'd imagine the f word exists just TES doesn't really go for that level of profanity.

pastel sorrel
#

It's shown up in a couple of OOG texts.

pseudo harbor
#

Would necromancy violate the Bosmer’s Green Pact?

pastel sorrel
#

It varies how much the Bosmer actually dislike necromancy, but it's nothing to do with the Green Pact.

pseudo harbor
#

I know Necromancy isn’t mentioned in the Green Pact, but I thought about this the other day and found it interesting.

#

Sure you could harvest meat from a body, but wouldn’t it be more useful to reanimate and have it serve you as an undead minion.

#

The kill isn’t being wasted, which would definitely violate the Greet Pact

pastel sorrel
#

The meat mandate isn't even really followed anymore besides the most hardline devotees.

plain cosmos
#

Me when ESO's Bosmer come up.

#

Imga are now the only culture of value in Valenwood.

gaunt bear
plain cosmos
#

Reject Bosmeri. Return to Imga.

gaunt bear
plain cosmos
#

Imga are monkey men. Bosmer are... Well, lame.

#

So it's a play off 'Reject Modernity, return to Monke'

sweet plume
plain cosmos
sweet plume
#

Although I will say I do think certain changes would happen to the Imga if they were to ever be included, considering some of the… um… more controversial aspects about it

#

PGE1 being propaganda and all I would wonder what exactly is true vs not and exaggerated.

robust lintel
#

You put the lime in the coconut

gaunt bear
#

The other coconuts don’t like that.

robust lintel
#

Neither do the limes 😳

gaunt bear
#

Yeah, but coconuts are more dangerous.

robust lintel
plain cosmos
#

No matter how slimy it is, or how much it smells like wet fur. Love is beautiful.

gaunt bear
#

$20 and, uh, I’ll pretend I didn’t think that.

plain cosmos
#

Lol

pastel sorrel
#

I mean, the imga might really like sload soap for their fur.

plain cosmos
#

I suspect Sload Soap is, really, just soap made from the rendered fat of juvenile Sload. So it would just be a conventional soap. Sload simply offer an ample supply of the fats needed to make traditional soap.

fathom jewel
gaunt bear
#

I’ve got a few cuss words and swearing from Thedas that’ll probably make their way around Tamriel (in my Dragon Age: The Lost Scrolls fanfiction):

In Thedas, elves are second-class citizens at best, so a human looking to pick a fight with one will call them “knife-ear”. If the elf returns with “Shem” or “quick”, blood’s about to flow, so place your bets quickly before it begins.

#

Another way Thedas is different from Tamriel is that southern Tamriel pray to an ancient prophetess that was burned alive by her enemies—and her god they call “the Maker” (yup, they don’t follow the Nine Divines)— and one thing they say when they bruise their shins is “Andraste’s…” well, any body or clothing part (an example: Andraste’s sacred knickers). “Maker’s breath” will get you in with any swaggering fools, but the Chantry won’t like it. Also, the Chantry isn’t too fond of mages in Thedas, so if you hear a mage in Thedas called a “spellbind”, hide anything flammable.

#

Then there are plenty of other things that simply mean “Damn it!” Dwarves (not-Dwemer) will say “Sod it!”; an elf will say “Fenedhis!”; a Qunari will say “Vashedan!”, and humans from Tevinter will yell “Kaffar!”

#

Any questions?

gaunt bear
#

Quick question for my Dragon Age: The Lost Scrolls fanfiction: is it possible for there to be “half-Argonians”?

#

I’m asking because several argonian adventurers/mercenaries have joined up with the Inquisition and several female members of Orlesian nobility are taking… more than a passing interest in them.

#

😉

plain cosmos
#

Possible, yes. In fact, it's rather likely.

gaunt bear
#

Okay, thanks. Better let Leliana know about this.

#

As a quick follow-up question, is it possible for there to be half-Khajiiti as well?

#

I’m asking because, when Inigo and I dealt with the Dovah that attacked Val Royeaux, I caught, with the tail of my eye, one of the surviving Orlesian nobles giving him the Eye up and down.

plain cosmos
#

Presumably yes, though we don't have any known examples.

gaunt bear
#

Thank you, once again. Better let Leliana know, don’t want Inigo to be stuck with child support.

plain cosmos
#

We have one probable Half-Argonian mentioned in the lore. And if Argonians can do it, so can Khajiit.

#

And probably Goblins, Imga, Lhamia, etc.

gaunt bear
#

"Lhamia"?

plain cosmos
#

Sorry, TES spells it Lamia

#

Snek people

gaunt bear
#

One final question before work: When Emperor Mede learns of the overarching goal of the Inquisition (to restore order to a world gone mad), would he give them authority to act in Tamriel before his death?

plain cosmos
#

Probably not.

gaunt bear
#

I’m pretty sure that there will be plenty of unofficial support, especially since the Inquisition technically didn’t sign the White-Gold Concordant, and thus don’t have to prohibit Talos (||it’s part of the reason why the Thalmor attack Skyhold, with the Anchor being the other, larger part||).

brisk perch
gaunt bear
plain cosmos
#

Whatever his failures, Mede seems to be a very... Slow go act individual. Unlike Uriel, who sees a vision and accepts it's whole heartedly, Mede tended to require a LOT before he'd be willing to even make a decision, let alone a good one.

gaunt bear
#

I’ll have a few more questions, but I’ll ask them after work.

plain cosmos
# brisk perch I think recently The Elder Scrolls Castles game confirmed that Saxhleel can have...

I think it would also be largely superfluous as the inheritance of characteristics from the Donor Parent seems to be minor. Given that Racial Abilities are dubious at best in most cases, the end result would likely on be an Argonian who can catch the sniffles, or a Khajiit with patchy fur.

The mechanical value of half-breed wouldn't really justify their inclusion. Though you could relatively easily work in some narrative and social elements in the writing.

gaunt bear
#

I’m back from work with a few new questions:

Maxwell Trevelyan: My question is a direct result of something that’s happening in Skyhold now. The king and queen of the Aldmeri Dominion, in refugee rags, have turned up in Skyhold begging for political asylum. Should I believe them, or is this a ploy to discover the Inquisition’s weakness?

fathom jewel
# gaunt bear I’m back from work with a few new questions: Maxwell Trevelyan: My question is ...

If there are actual 'in betweens' of betmer/mer and betmer/men and if these 'in betweens' are fertile/able to breed on their own, this pretty strongly implies that all the sentient species are actually one species with cosmetic differences between them. Wait - to be fair, there are cultural differences as well. But the term 'race' doesn't apply, because it suggests different species (at least that's my understanding, though the term has been so widely and freely used throughout history that it doesn't really mean anything specific or useful anymore.) Treating them as 'tribes' works better, I think.

#

Now I'm wondering if some of the 'beast' species like the kothringi and lilmothiit (sp?) are actually 'cross breeds' of betmer and men or mer. Also wondering if the Argonians have a lunar cycle that influences how their offspring physically look in a similar way to how the Khajiit are influenced by the twin moons.

brisk perch
#

Kothringi are not one of the beast races, they're a race of man that were on Tamriel since the Dawn Era.
Yep, there's plenty of evidence by now that there were various Nedic tribes living on Tamriel even before the Aldmer supposedly discovered Tamriel.

#

Lilmothiit were the vulpine beast race, though are either extinct or all in hiding after their population was decimated by the Knahaten Flu in the 2nd Era.

gaunt bear
fathom jewel
fathom jewel
# gaunt bear I’m pretty sure that’s the case, but that wasn’t the question I was asking. I wa...

They might be. Another possibility is that they are under the CONTROL of the Thalmor. Think of Hirohito during the 30's and 40's or Wilhelm the 2nd, Kaiser/Emperor of Germany during that same period (though he passed away in '42.) Both loved their country and were not intellectually or spiritually aligned with the military/fascist regimes which came to power, but bowed to their power with the goal of quietly trying to steer them towards a more rational course (to no avail.)

gaunt bear
#

I’ll leave the question for the lore experts, such as @plain cosmos .

plain cosmos
#

Hah, careful now. My input tends to be controversial.

#

Higher ups in most Fuedal societies, the Altmer included, would never resort to that sort of demeaning subterfuge. They'd send someone else to spy for them.

If THEY show up, someone has seized their throne.

gaunt bear
#

My other new question is about this:

Matthias (MY Dragonborn): As it turned out later, Cicero is actually one of the keepers of the Dark Brotherhood, but it’s been decimated from within and struggling since the Oblivion Crisis. Right now, they’re moonlighting as traveling performers while being consulted on things such as assassination (it takes a thief to catch one, right?). But Cicero said that the reason why they’re helping us is because Sithis doesn’t like being conflated with Dumat, Old God of Silence and the first Archdemon (||https://dragonage.fandom.com/wiki/Dumat||) which some members of the Chantry are doing. Is it just, or unjust?

fathom jewel
plain cosmos
gaunt bear
fathom jewel
#

Question about the Redguard - is it possible that a significant portion of their theology is derived from Sinistral Elf sources? I'm assuming the Left Hand Elves had a cultural influence on the Redguard.

sweet plume
#

It may not be the best Elder Scrolls, but it without a doubt began my journey 5 years ago in Jan of 2019.

#

You gotta start somewhere

upper field
#

I started here as well. What a ride.

fathom jewel
#

The central geographic features were the imperial city and its island, along with Niben Bay and the river going to the south. You really have to wonder how the Imperials lost the city in the Great War to the Altmer - it has to be the easiest city in Mundus to defend. Any attack has to be a naval landing, and the fire that could be poured down onto an attacking fleet and any land forces that actually managed to disembark would be tremendous.

robust trout
#

All the defenses in the world mean nothing if you get someone inside to open the door

plain cosmos
#

The Great War was written by someone with no understanding of warfare, and seemed to take Oblivion as to-scale. There's so many things that need to be handwaved away to make it work, that it can at best be considered a rough outline rather than a worthwhile historical document.

glacial scarab
#

It's also fantasy sieges so it ends way too quickly.

Though the port is very unprotected so it wouldn't last as long as people might think

brisk perch
#

Real life warfare tactics would be quite different if people could form portals to nearly instantly travel to the target, or rain magical fire from above without needing to spend hundreds of millions to billions on munitions.

glacial scarab
#

Though I will say that "Any attack has to be a naval landing" is incorrect as the setting does have a case of water breathing being used on an army to just ignore the terrain of a lake in Morrowind.

plain cosmos
#

Oh, there's absolutely ways to go about attacking the Imperial City. The bridge it's self is enormous, and unless it could be properly held, can't be easily destroyed. So it presents something of a weak point.

It's also possible the fighting retreat wasn't due to a direct assault, but rather a need to flee the location during a normal siege. That would result in the Imperials having to break through the sige lines in order to get out, rather than risk capture or starvation in the city it's self.

#

The Imperial City it's self, based on the depictions of it, is actually pretty poorly defended. It's main asset is being on an island in a lake, but that's hardly insurmountable. Especially for the strongest naval power on the continent.

#

The problem lies more with the total lack of information regarding the forces, movements and actual engagements. The total lack of any indication about supply lines and the logistics of warfare. And if course the nonsensical narrative of the Red Ring, which seems to be written as if they were fighting a modern urban battle instead of... Well, one with swords and spears.

#

And that's not even getting into the problems of Legends, which relegated the whole war to a magic macguffin and just throws any sense of nuance, strategy or geopolitics and warfare through the front door of a burning library.

#

In order for what we have to make sense, as is, it would require hundreds of thousands of soldiers fighting battles across fronts that were hundreds of kilometers long.

fathom jewel
fathom jewel
plain cosmos
#

If it was properly fortified, sure. But it isn't. It's barely fortified at all, with only light gatehouse along its length.

#

Far heavier bridges have fallen quite easily to military pressure.

And with the Imperial City not taking up the entire island in any depiction, there's plenty of landing room for amphibious assaults.

#

Properly to scale, the island it's self is more like a small kingdom, and would likely be impossible to defend.

The lake on the other hand is at minimum the size of Lake Ontario, which... Well, is enormous.

raw grail
#

the Hist are responsible for (generally) claiming and providing souls during birth and death. they've even made Argonians into non-humanoid shapes, based on the various lizard steeds we see in ESO. the Hist can also change the shape of Argonians in the middle of their lives, such as by making Argonians larger and stronger, change sexes, or switch between live and egg birth

plain cosmos
#

The Hist take an active role in bound Argonians but the ability for Argonians to be born without Hist interaction calls into question their own claims to be the source of Argonian Souls.

gaunt bear
plain cosmos
#

Basically, the Hist, and Hist Worshipping Argonians, claim that the Hist are the source of Argonian Souls. We we know that the Hist have some sort of interaction with Argonian Souls, as we actively witness one absorbing the souls of its villiage after a Dominon attack Blackmarsh.

However, we ALSO know that Argonians can be born outside of Hist control. And those Argonians still have souls.

So the actual interaction between Argonian Souls and the Hist is far more complicated than them simply being the source.

plain cosmos
#

There is a lot of interesting room for expiration with the Argonians and the Hist. Unfortunately, there are also a lot of apologists who refuse to acknowledge some of the problematic elements that make that potential all the more juicy.

fathom jewel
#

Maybe the story is (or should be) that the Hist do not consider an Argonian to truly be 'one of the people' until that Argonian ingests the Hist sap. In other words, the Hist possibly distinguish between an Argonian of the flesh and an Argonian of the spirit.

plain cosmos
#

Considering the horribly bad take from ESO that being born away from the Hist gives an Argonian autism, I don't think that's really the direction to take things.

sweet plume
#

Ja-Reet, The Autistic Argonian may be a rarity and not the norm, some Argonians simply may not be able to function 100% without the Hist.

plain cosmos
#

They definitely course corrected after, yeah. And for good reason.

fathom jewel
#

I wonder if there's a group of Argonians - a tribe, essentially - that has consciously broken with the Hist in order to deliberately pursue their own course in developing an independent society.

plain cosmos
#

We don't know of any. Individuals, yes, though it's unclear whether or not any of those were subject to the 'Recall'.

sweet plume
plain cosmos
#

Mental health topics are always a touchy thing to try to execute on, and TES doesn't have a very good track record with it.

But creating explicit examples that disprove the healers assertion that Ja-Reet is what happens when an Argonian is born away from the Hist was good start at least.

sweet plume
#

A lot of them look down on the “Lukiul” as it is.

#

The Term for Argonian’s who are assimilated outside the Marsh

plain cosmos
#

Based on Argonian perceptions, I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if they viewed autistic Lukiul as defective because of their lack of connection, but viewed autistic tribals as shamen of more in tune with the Hist.

It's not the disconnect that causes it, but it's a convenient scape goat to reinforce their biases.

sweet plume
gaunt bear
# plain cosmos There is a lot of interesting room for expiration with the Argonians and the His...

Ooh, I know about that all too well. With advances in technology, we were able to learn that Classical Greek and Roman statues were painted once, and analysis of the remnants meant that they were actually… kinda garish looking, more like clowns than anything else. The scientist who announced this discovery received several death threats from Classical “purists” who didn’t like that discovery, to put it mildly.

eternal rivet
#

Does miraak predate the dwemer?

fathom jewel
pastel sorrel
#

The Dwemer were already there before even Ysgramor showed up.

proven moss
#

Odd question. Maybe they meant if Miraak was alive while they were still around.

#

E.g. he predated their disappearance

eternal rivet
#

Thanks. Haven't looked at any timelines and trying to get a handle on it. Likely look a timeline soon

fathom jewel
#

This brings up another question: the Dragons dominated humans in the Merethic, including when humans showed up in Skyrim. But the dragons never tried to rule over any of the betmer or the elves (or at least it appears so.) Why is that?

pastel sorrel
#

The Dragon Cult was in power there, even moreso than Atmora

#

Why leave when you're already being pampered there? Those who did leave were the few bold enough to strike out away from Alduin's dominion and try to establish their own, with variable success.

fathom jewel
#

Well, it's just that the dragons seem to have this obsession about dominating. Why didn't they use the humans under them to conquer other lands and peoples?

gaunt bear
proven moss
#

Might be of interest to you

gaunt bear
# pastel sorrel Why leave when you're already being pampered there? Those who did leave were the...

I’ve actually got something like that planned for my Dragon Age: The Lost Scrolls fanfiction:

An artifact that drops out of a Fade Rift is a model Word Wall with Alduin perched on top of it, and it contains this memory from the Fade:

Woman’s Voice: “The High King!

He’s been sold a bill of goods, all right. We just want to live in harmony with the elves and what do we get? More war! More taxes! Sacrifices in the City Square!! Her Sacred Tree? Kindling!!! Even worse, all of us have to go so far as to kiss that accursed idol. All at the urging of his… his…

His advisor!!!

The great chained wonder, Konahrik (did I spell that right?)!! Now, Princely Konahrik!!

Ugh, Ysgramor is right. Atmora is sunk! These ships can’t take us away from that charnel house fast enough.

#

Any thoughts?

marble oar
#

Sharing this here as well.

sharp lantern
sharp lantern
fathom jewel
sharp lantern
#

They performed purges and murder dissidents too.^

gaunt bear
sharp lantern
#

It's stated in Rising Threat unsure which volume tho.

gaunt bear
#

@sharp lantern thank you, master. Now, what do you think about this thing I made for my Dragon Age: The Lost Scrolls fanfiction: #elder-scrolls-lore message

sharp lantern
#

I feel like I'm missing some context.

gaunt bear
# sharp lantern I feel like I'm missing some context.

Serithi wanted to know why the Dragon Cult came to Skyrim when they were “living comfortably” in Atmora. I suggested that they were forced to leave due to something going on in Atmora, and provided a memory I made for my Dragon Age: The Lost Scrolls fanfiction, and I want your opinion on what I made.

sharp lantern
#

IIRC there was civil war in Atmora which forced them south.

In which case, your fanfic could match - social unrest as displayed by that woman are typically the first steps that gradually grow into full-blown revolt.

gaunt bear
#

The woman’s voice/I also said that the “social unrest” was a result of Konahrik’s advice.

upper field
#

I find it ironic that the Altmer in Summerset Isles were one of the less successful countries in driving back the Daedra during the Oblivion Crisis. Granted not many others fared any better outside of Black Marsh, but still.

plain cosmos
#

We don't really know how successful or unsuccessful they were, only that Crystal-Like-Law was destroyed.

#

Considering other provinces had whole cities razed to the ground, that doesn't seem too unbalanced.

brisk perch
upper field
#

Wasn't Black Marsh, with the aid of the Hist, able to not only repel the attack, but push them back and force the Daedra to close their gates?

plain cosmos
#

Based on the testimony of a single young, nationalistic, and drunk Argonian. Yes.

plain cosmos
upper field
#

Ah. Also didn't the Thalmor take credit for the end of the Oblivion Crisis, which allowed them to rise into power?

plain cosmos
#

Destroy one, Destroy them all sorts thing.

#

Yes they did. Though their rise to power was probably more complicated than just that claim

upper field
#

Right.

plain cosmos
#

Similar to Chocolate Rations in Oceania, it's possible they simply took credit AFTER their rise to power to reinforce their claim.

upper field
#

Gotcha.

#

So we just know they rose to power due to the Oblivion Crisis.

plain cosmos
#

Or in the aftermath of it.

#

The novels seem to imply there was an overt coup of some sort, though it's not as explicit as the one in Valenwood.

#

They were already in control of Summerset, and Valenwood, by the time of the novels. When Titus I is still solidifying his power in Cyrodiil.

gaunt bear
#

@plain cosmos @sharp lantern Another thing I’d like some help/opinions with is that, thanks to Alduin’s Return, as well as the Breach (||https://dragonage.fandom.com/wiki/The_Breach||), the magic/energy released is causing the Towers (The Red Mountain, The White-Gold Tower, the Throat of the World, etc.) to activate/act up. Unfortunately, the only way to know this is to see the columns of colored light (with the colors matching the Tower’s “theme”) shooting up into infinity, since that’s all that they’re doing (||so far…||). Fortunately, Matthias (my Dragonborn) has used the Ancient Knowledge from the Dwemer Lexicon, a ground glass lens crafted from Fade-touched molten glass, and some help from Arcanist Dagna, to create a special Dwemer Eyepiece that allows anyone who wears it to “place the Veil over their eyes” and see the columns of colored light.

gaunt bear
fathom jewel
upper field
#

Maybe it was because the environment of Skyrim was very suitable for their tastes, especially when you consider the Jerall Mountains and such (Dragons like mountains).

gaunt bear
upper field
#

Please don't ping me.

fathom jewel
# upper field Maybe it was because the environment of Skyrim was very suitable for their taste...

Maybe that's it. Elsweyr, Valenwood and Black Marsh look like they're very flat on a map - I haven't seen anything that looks like genuine mountain ranges or highlands. With the exception of Red Mountain and the Velothi range to the NW, Morrowind is flat too. And most of Hammerfell looks flat on a map, except to the east and NE. That leaves HR, which should have quite a few dragons to the east.

plain cosmos
#

I suspect it was largely to do with their own migration trends and the Atmorans, more than anything.

When the Dragons came to Tamriel, they came with their Atmoran worshippers. Those worshippers them established themselves in Skyrim, and the Dragons were largely localised with them.

Dragons may have INTENDED to move wider afield, but then the Dragon War happened, and many were killed while their power was largely broken. The survivors scattered, and had to establish their own individual power bases in the interim.

Mountains tend to be the hardest environment for humanoids to thrive in, so dragons seeking refuge from hunters may have thereafter favoured mountainous environments, due to the practical advantages it gave them.

#

We do know they have been found in Elsweyr, Morrowind, Blackmarsh, Highrock, Cyrodiil and Hammerfell in the millennia between the Dragon War and Arena however. So while their authoritative power wasn't widespread, they seem to have become so over time.

Until hunted to near extinction anyway.

fathom jewel
plain cosmos
#

They're individualistic in the absence of their clear authority. When Alduin is around, they KNOW he is in charge, and have historically fallen in line.

Without him though, their desire to dominate things, including eachother, leads them to become individualistic.

#

It's not until Alduin's power is very clearly challenged by another, that they even start to think resistance against him is possible..

fathom jewel
#

Side comment - it's kind of interesting that no dragon tried to find a way to level himself up (so to speak) in order to challenge Alduin for leadership. I bet if a dragon who was already unusually strong actually made an effort - learning various magic schools, eating right, getting into power lifting, doing some dragon-adapted martial arts, etc - that said dragon could give Alduin a genuine run for his money. Or: maybe a dragon could do all that and then possibly cut a deal with some daedra to get some extra power in exchange for getting a bunch of shrines built for said daedric prince. Who knows - maybe dragons are inherently lazy.

plain cosmos
#

Against Alduin, only one seems to have. Kaalgrontiid.

#

After Alduin's banishment however, Durnhiviir indicates that basically every Dragon sought new ways to increase their power, to try and take his vacant position at the top of the totem pole.

gaunt bear
#

Inquisitor Trevelyan: I've got some disturbing news from my spies in Morrowind: They've found Kagrenac's old workshop/laboratory, and in it was a single, unshielded sample of Red Lyrium!! In fact, some are suggesting that it was this sample that it was due to Red Lyrium-induced madness that the Dwemer started building the Anumidium. I've already ordered that the laboratory, and the sample be locked down, but I refuse to act further until I have more information.

fathom jewel
merry lion
#

I cant wait for mankar cameron and the mythic dawn to arrive in eso

plain cosmos
#

Few centuries too early for that.

jagged maple
#

anyone know why the forgotten vale collapsed as a civilization?

gaunt bear
fathom jewel
# jagged maple anyone know why the forgotten vale collapsed as a civilization?

The Forgotten Vale wasn't a civilization. It was a religious center for the Snow Elves. The Snow Elves were driven out of Skyrim by the Nords and almost their entire civilizational infrastructure was eradicated as a part of this - the war between them was genocidal. Remember also that the Snow Elves who sought refuge with the Dwemer were enslaved, and over time turned into the goblin-like Falmer. At a certain point, the Falmer fought to free themselves from the Dwemer, took over Skyrim's Dwemer facilities after Kagrenac annihilated the Dwemer tribe with his tonal magic experiments, and eventually discovered the Forgotten Vale and destroyed it.

plain cosmos
#

Without a specific date, we can assume it was some time between 1e700 (Disappearance of the Dwemer) and 2e854 (beginning of the Tiber Wars and the conquest of Tamriel).

Thks leaves about 3000 years in which it could have occured.

jagged maple
#

were there ever any good vampires according to elder scrolls lore besides serena?

sweet plume
#

The Vampires of House Ravenwatch

jagged maple
#

atleast theres some good ones out there.

plain cosmos
#

Count Hassildor in Oblivion. Sybil Stentor in Skyrim.

They definitely do happen.

fathom jewel
# jagged maple still its mysterious in its own ways

As you can see from the above contributions, there's been a few. The House Ravenwatch ones are especially interesting. Think of it - if you were immortal, it would give you the opportunity to pursue all sorts of intellectual interests. There are a MILLION things I'd like to do beyond what I do now - microbiology, immunology, physical chemistry, solid state physics, higher mathematics, computational physics, analog electronic chip and system design, embedded system software development, microprocessor design (and other microprogrammable architectures), compiler development, OS development, deep dives into history, economics, industrial policy, medical policy.....ok, I'm a bit weird, but other than their extremely limited diet, the Ravenwatch group has a pretty good thing going.

marble oar
#

Though its unsure if they made it into the third era or not sadly

fathom jewel
fathom jewel
#

Question: why haven't any of the Mer colonized Akavir? Think about it - the Aldmer left Aldmeris, discovered Tamriel and settled in Summerset. The Maormer split away and went to Pyandonea, and did this before the Aldmer went to Summerset. Some of these Aldmer became Altmer, who then went to High Rock (as the Direnni), Cyrodiil-Hammerfell-Black Marsh (as the Ayleid), and to Atmora. Those who split from the Altmer into their own tribes include the Sinistral (who went to Yokuda), the Dwemer and Dunmer (who went to Morrowind, though many Dwemer wandered west after that) and the Snow Elves (who took Skyrim.) But nobody went to Akavir. Why?

pastel sorrel
#

If they did, they didn't find much success or otherwise have been lost to history. The natives aren't exactly receptive to invasion.

sweet plume
#

And the exact Size of the Continent of Akavir is unknown

fathom jewel
# pastel sorrel You're assuming they *didn't* try already.

Well, remember: Topal bought the islands in the middle of Niben Bay where the White Gold Tower was then built. It was inhabited by 'bird men' at the time, who sold the islands to the Aldmer in exchange for an alphabet and literacy. So the Aldmer/Altmer and/or their tribal 'spinoffs' did go to territories such as Cyrodiil, Yokuda and Atmora which were already inhabited. Why didn't they try that in Akavir? If they had tried and failed, we'd know.

pastel sorrel
fathom jewel
pastel sorrel
#

And were eventually wiped out. We barely know anything about the Yokudan or Altmoran elves, and Akavir has always been even less detailed

#

If they made it out there, we've heard nothing back. We only know of for instance Uriel V's invasion because it was an actual official major invasion with means of communicating back, not just some early expedition across unknown waters that could easily be lost

#

Or if the Anuad's pangaea thing holds true, maybe Akavir broke off before the elves could make it over there

#

It is on the opposite side of Tamriel from Summerset and such, you've gotta go the long way no matter what to get there

fathom jewel
pastel sorrel
#

Akavir in general hasn't been particularly friendly with Tamriel for whatever reasons.

#

Only a few cultures on Tamriel would even care to sail to Akavir, Tamriel's already full of Stuff To Do™️

#

The Dunmer, Khajiit and Argonians are all largely concerned with their own lands and neighbours

#

Even in Morrowind for instance where - at least as of TES3's time - Akaviri designs were popular (hence the tantos and wakizashis and such), they're perfectly capable of just making their own replicas and inspired designs, they weren't exactly hard up about getting genuine originals, that'd just be an individual matter.

#

After all, why use a foreign weapon when you can improve its design yourself like a Dunmer

#

wouldn't be surprised if that's why the ebony weapon designs in TES5 are curved, pulling from the katana influences a bit

raw grail
#

Looks like Daggerfall. Tbh for some reason I thought it was Oblivion (which is super wrong, it was also mentioned in Morrowind)

raw grail
#

The dragon cult didn't even exist until tes5

raw grail
fathom jewel
raw grail
#

I was kind of under the impression Altmora was captured during the War of Manifest Metaphors

plain cosmos
#

It's difficult to date, due to the conflicting information.

#

Even the Velothi Exodus is variably placed in the late Dawn, to late Merethic. Which is a LONG range.

raw grail
#

I've kind of settled my mind on that one based on the apparent reliance on Lorkhan being dead

fathom jewel
#

Speaking of Lorkhan - why did the Aedra get so hysterical and kill him? Sure, he got them to participate in creating Mundus and they all had to give some of their power to complete the task. If they didn't want to do it, why did they? I'm not buying this story that Lorkhan tricked them, either. They couldn't figure out that such a monumental task would take significant investment from them? The more I consider the Aedra, the more I believe that the Daedric princes are right about them being stupid.

raw grail
#

You're not buying the reason that is consistently given

#

Every tradition, even those that praise Lorkhan, regards him as a trickster

#

He told them they'd be making a world and children, but he didn't tell them that the process would kill them

#

There's also an I think less popular theory that Magnus fleeing was the turning point. They'd expected Magnus and Lorkhan to be the ones making the brunt of the sacrifice, but Magnus fleeing meant everyone had to give more of themselves

#

I don't know how much that's supported by the sources tho

fathom jewel
#

Also: if Magnus abandoned the project, why didn't any of the others? I'm seriously questioning the reasoning capabilities of the Aedra.

raw grail
raw grail
#

Kind of like a parent who didn't mean to have a kid and hates the other parent but still loves and keeps the kid

raw grail
#

I very much follow the theory that the Magne-Ge are tatters of Magnus, but that does kind of imply that the only spirit to abandon the project was actually Magnus, and he was just split into many other spirits

#

So allegedly some other spirits did abandon the project to become Magne-Ge

plain cosmos
#

War of Manifest Metaphors and all that.

The 'Reason' boils down to one thing. The value of sacrificing their divine agency for the sake of Creation.

#

All agreed at least in some part, though their conviction and dedication is what resulted in the division.

#

The hard liners were Aka, who rejected sacrificing his own power, and Lorkhan, who demanded it. All others would have flopped back and forth as arguments were made.

And those arguments would have reflected as outright warfare.

#

Aka, the greedy, domineering ruler, refused to give up his throne and accept mortality. And when he won, the other spirits with enough power remaining left with him.

fathom jewel
plain cosmos
#

They're gods. No god is deserving of worship, you worship them out of fear.

brisk perch
#

TBH, you cannot, and should not, trust a lot of the unsourced lore opinions of people posting here. Unless you get an in-game source, it's likely an opinion. In fact, most in-game sources are intentionally written to be slanted opinions.

plain cosmos
#

Oh absolutely.

brisk perch
#

Fanon written outside of the games is non-canon or deuterocanon, some of it could be canon, but is not until decided to be by the powers that be.

plain cosmos
#

We are explicitly told in ESO that the nature of the War of Manifest Metaphors is such that all explanations for the conflict are both true, and irrelevant. So it doesn't even really matter.

brisk perch
#

That doesn't even get into ||how paths work, and reality can and has been rewritten multiple times over, so all of them are or were true, or at least were a possibility||. There is some new lore coming soon, very soon, like next few weeks soon. Some of it is quite important.

#

Might be activated next week at the ESO Anniversary event, once the prologue goes live there will be new lore to discuss on that 😛

plain cosmos
#

However, what we have is pretty implicit in Akatosh's domineering nature. He is Divine Right and Time rolled into one. The notion that he would be caring and protective is religious pandering of the highest order.

Hell, Alduin's crime is trying to take Akatosh's crown. The absentee king of the gods takes such offense to that action, that he created the Dragonborn specifically to destroy his own son.

#

Akatosh should not be viewed as a kind god.

brisk perch
#

Well, is time kind?

plain cosmos
#

No, it certainly isn't.

#

Contrary to the adage, Time does not in fact heal all wounds. It withers the body and crushed the spirit, crumbles every achievement to ruin and bring everything closer to Oblivion.

Time is a cruel, cruel beast.

brisk perch
#

Time heals all wounds. You might just not have enough to heal your wounds, but on a cosmic scale, time heals all wounds.

#

TBH, the game itself refers to me as a wound in the world, that's sort of the nature of the prisoner, really.

plain cosmos
#

I could get into the ironic theology of the Tamrielic perception of the borderline abusive nature of Akatosh as 'tough love's and how he's actually a living father figure, but that very quickly becomes a touchy topic for some.

Sufficed to say, yes. I do believe the Dwemer were right about the gods. None of them are deserving of worship, Aedra, Daedra or otherwise. But how their cults have developed, and how they manipulate the reality of the relationship between gods and mortals, is probably the best done overall aspect of the franchise.

#

Because when you get into the nitty gritty, there's no more reason to worship the Aedra, than the Daedra.

brisk perch
#

Some of the teachings are worth following, even if the originals might not be.

plain cosmos
#

True. But the same can be said for some of the Daedra's teachings.

At that point, it becomes a topic of the value of the idea it's self, not it's source.

#

That's why Tamriel needs a college of Ethics, instead of all these barely functional magic schools.

#

Considering Oxford has been around in some capacity since at least 1096, it's a wonder there are so few academic institutions in Tamriel.

brisk perch
#

There are, we just don't visit most of them since they wouldn't make for good gameplay?

plain cosmos
#

We got the Bards College. Basically Tamriel Julliard.

If we have to suffer through that, the least they could do is give us a real college..

#

That's a joke. I actually quite respect actors.

My point was more that... You can find a way to make them relevant to some sort of story without too much work.

#

Like, having the College of Markarth's botany department wanting rare plant samples, or paying for regular supplies.

Or the Skingrad Institute of Metallurgy wanting you to smuggle in some Dwemer metal so they can study it's composition.

raw grail
fathom jewel
#

Akatosh is, in my view, a particularly unlikable Aedra. Kills Lorkhan and then tries to take his place - smacks of envy. Claims to be patron deity of Mer and patron deity of Men, but when they war with each other, he is patron deity of all life, and yet lets mer and men continue to war pointlessly with each other. Allegedly sends heroes from time to time to prevent some sort of calamity but never sends a hero to build a lasting peace. Creates the Amulet of Kings to protect Nirn from Oblivion, but when it gets broken, he doesn't replace it. By the time the next kalpa is set to roll around, all the spirits from the previous kalpa should be allowed to each give Akatosh a punch.

plain cosmos
#

Dibella is really the only Aedra deserving of any sort of admiration. But only because she's never really picked a side, it screwed with anyone's lives in a directly negative way.

All the others are no better than the Princes.

#

I suppose Mara sorta comes close... But Marriage is a petty institution in and of itself, and serves only as an enforcement of the orthodoxy of love. So I'm inclined to hate her just based on her sphere.

fathom jewel
#

It just occurred to me - there's no God of War amongst either the Aedra or Daedra, is there? It sounds like Ebonarm may have been retconned out of existence.

plain cosmos
#

Talos.

#

Talos is the War God amongst the Divines.

Other war gods include Trinimac, Boethiah, and Mehrunes Dagon.

sweet plume
#

Kratos: Talos! I have come seeking the ruin of the Aedra!

plain cosmos
#

TES need some Kratos.

#

Maybe he can work his way through the Divines next. Make them his 3rd pantheon.

sweet plume
#

I never played it but have seen the games. Kratos development in the recent two games is so great after the original Greek Series.

plain cosmos
#

The original games are eh. In the more recent 2 though, they treat him as an actual character, and handle his development wonderfully.

#

But, that something that is really only able to be done over multiple entities focusing in the same characters. So it's not something TES, or really any Bethesda franchise, is set up to do.

sweet plume
cinder valley
#

please keep it to elder scrolls lore in this chat.

sweet plume
#

Yes Elder Scrolls Lore chat

#

Jinx

gaunt bear
# plain cosmos Talos is the War God amongst the Divines. Other war gods include Trinimac, Boe...

Matthias (My Dragonborn for my Dragon Age: The Lost Scrolls fanfiction): That may be so, but the spirits of the Fade showed me one of Tiber Septim’s campaigns into Valenwood (and for some reason gave Tiber Septim golden hair), and the spirit who showed me this was a spirit of Madness somehow allied with Sheogorath: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KyEuN_cQdlo

YouTube
BoBoBo-Bo Bo-BoBo Clips
Watch Out For That Tunnel!!!

Subscribe If You Want More Daily BoBoBo-Bo Bo-BoBo Clips, To (Hopefully) Make You Laugh or Chuckle Once Per Day

▶ Play video
#

Either Tiber Septim wasn’t a stellar conqueror all the time, or Thedas and Mundus getting “linked together” is having more consequences than originally thought.

glacial scarab
sharp lantern
#

Reman is not so much rectconned as just not really worshipped anymore.

#

Same way how the Nordic Pantheon wasn't rectconned but Skyrim just converted to the Nine.

glacial scarab
#

I said practically retconned because there's like two old books and no one ever refers to him as a god just a man.

Even with Reman era texts there's no godhood to be found.

such is the state of not being part of the Divines with the Imperials you don't exist.

plain cosmos
#

Such is the generally sorry state of religion in TES as a whole.

sharp lantern
#

But yea, it's been kind of severely watered down

plain cosmos
#

Private connection... Proceeds to build cathedrals in their worship.

#

The only way that constitutes a private connection, is in the Judeo-Christian concept of the personal connection to God. Which doesn't in any way discourage formal worship attendance of participation

#

If anything, the Imperials more closely mimic the Roman expansion of religious dogma and forcible conversion which characterized the 5th to 15th centuries.

So the suppression and even eradication of other forms of worship fits their general inspirations.

glacial scarab
#

I wouldn't say private as it's very much in your face.
The Generic divines have their Cathedrals.
Cults are either trying to murder you for their demonic master or are quite willing to talk of their subject (Elder Scrolls the only reason the Ancestor Moth cult even exists in the game).

plain cosmos
#

Of all the faiths and cultures, the Imperials are the most public in their religious institutions and practices.

#

Nords and Dunmer probably being in second place.

#

It's been made pretty clear that BGS doesn't like actually dealing with religious complexities. They go out of their way to limit perspectives to singular faiths or mindsets, and we've seen this across all 3 franchises now.

So the most likely explanation for the decline in references of Reman's cult is pretty obvious.

That said, the meta answer is also rather boring. Has Reman's cult been effectively retconned, and now only exists as undoctored references in unedited older texts? Yes.

Can we concoct an explanation for this in universe that explains it in a more satisfying way? Also yes.

fathom jewel
#

My guess is BGS doesn't really know HOW to handle religion. There's probably nobody on staff who is a regular, constant practitioner of any given faith. Or it could be that there are many more people besides the Dwemer who suspect the Aedra and Daedra are not really worthy of worship and the only people who build, staff and attend temples and shrines are people who believe they stand to benefit directly - thru the granting of magical power and boons and such.

plain cosmos
#

I think the opposite is true. Based on how religion has been handled, I think the influences are overwhelmingly of a single faith and that tends to skew the perspective.

But that's neither here nor there, and I'm not going to point fingers here. The problem is enevitability the outcome, and people tend to be really touchy when their beliefs are indicated to be part of why the outcome is lacking.

So instead, I'd rather just talk about how to fix the problem instead of rooting out the cause of it.

#

Reman and his dynasty were incredibly short. It was over within 3 generations or so. And there's no clear indication of an cult to Remain during that dynasty it's self.

It's also unlikely that any such cult would have sprung up under the relatively anti-Reman Potentates.

And it doesn't seem to be present as of ESO.

#

Given the chaos of the Interregnum, and the increasingly romanticised image of the Remans even in ESO, it's likely, then, that the Cult of Reman spring up some time between 2e585ish and 2e800ish.

By the time of Tiber, it was already established, and he was familiar with it enough to support its presence in the Capital.

#

However, as Tiber's star rose, and his own propaganda machine got rolling, the need for that heroic worship of a past Emperor fell apart. Instead, that focus was now on Tiber himself, with his cult quickly overwhelming and likely absorbing the Reman Cult.

glacial scarab
fathom jewel
#

They've done a relatively ok job with the dunmer and their religious institution. It seems to be the most completely 'thought out' of all the pantheons and traditions.

sharp lantern
#

We're specifically talking about the subcults.

plain cosmos
fathom jewel
#

A particularly unsatisfying thing with Skyrim - religion was very clearly an afterthought. I remember wandering around the map and bumping into religious things - temples and shrines - that were placed very nonsensically. I recall the Dibella temple in Markarth, and my first reaction was "what's this doing here?" I bumped into shrines for various aedra all across Skyrim, tucked away in the wilderness, scattered willy nilly. Pointless.

plain cosmos
#

We're all familiar with the rumours about why religion was such a mess in Skyrim, so there's no point dredging that cabal. Though given the design doc that was later used for the Nords in ESO, I'm not sure that the alternative was really any better.

Still the over reliance on the Divines pantheon has done significant harm to the setting, IMO, and it's ultimately something that's only gotten worse over time.

Even the Redguard have been brought more and more in line with it.

glacial scarab
#

Honestly as much as people talk on the dev side of Skyrim I doubt it would've been anything more then just renames.

TES just has no interest in the Aedric religions.

plain cosmos
#

Outside of the Divines, anyway. Though even then, they're kinda...

fathom jewel
plain cosmos
#

Not the place for it. It's easy enough to find online, along with all the speculation that comes with it. If you want to DM me, I'll talk about it, but it's not a worthwhile avenue for official channels.

brisk perch
#

That feeling when you look into the histories of April Fool's and you realize that The Elder Scrolls got it right. It did have multiple origins.

sharp lantern
plain cosmos
#

Tamriel is at the point, economically, where a Warrior Culture becomes unsustainable.

#

You either transition to Militarism, or die out.

glacial scarab
#

Hard to tell with Skyrim really
Like you could say Skyrim still follows the Nordic Pantheon just the names were changed just from how the Divines are handled

What can you tell me about Mara?
"Mara is the handmaiden of Kyne, the Goddess of the Storm and the Mother of Men. She is the bearer of love and the patron of marriage. If you wish to make a donation to her Benevolence, speak to Maramal and ensure your true love will endure for all eternity."

Maramal: "Put down your flagons filled with your vile liquids and embrace the teachings of the handmaiden of Kyne."

Gemma: "They have to be reasonable about it at some point."
Ganna: "Gemma. This town is called 'Kynesgrove.' That stand of trees is Kyne's Grove. You don't honestly think you can just cut some down."

Rorlund: "A word, my love?"
Freir: "What troubles you, darling?"
Rorlund: "I fear attendance is down. There are so few worshippers coming to see us. Could it be that the war has weakened their faith?"
Freir: "Nonsense, dear. I've had more visitors than ever seeking the wisdom of the hearth goddesses."
Rorlund: "Ah, that must be it. So many of the men are serving in battle. I shall pray to Stendarr that they return victorious."
plain cosmos
#

Largely because of Bethesda's homogenisation of the Pantheons as a whole.

#

Though I will give Skyrim credit. At least it's temples function somewhat like Polytheistic Temples.

In Oblivion, it was just Monotheism in practice. One temple, one priesthood, one worship.

Skyrim has dedicated temples to specific deities, with their own internal priesthoods.

glacial scarab
plain cosmos
#

Maybe. I always took Varieties of Faith as more of an in-universe propagandist missionary text, rather than an actual guide to the writers.

fathom jewel
plain cosmos
#

No, though that does tend to be a mechanical part of it.

Militarism is a sociopolitical dynamic in which a society believes in the maintenance of a strong military capacity, while also tending to express social mobility through military service.

To quote The Federation in Starship Troopers... Service guarantees Citizenship.

#

The cardinal difference between Militarism, and Warrior Cultures, is the emphasis on the whole vs the individual.

Militarism places emphasis on absolute military capability, not just individual martial prowess. The Unit is more important than the Soldier, sort of thing.

#

As populations increase, and economic capacities allow for easier access to more and better armaments, the value of individually skilled warriors quickly falls. Doesn't matter how good a Knight you are, if you're against 100 novices armed with the same sort of weapons.

#

With Warrior Cultures, excellence is really the only means of progression. Proving yourself better than your competitors, typically through battle. This leads to a very... Risky mechanism for social advancement, because most opportunities to prove that excellence will result in SOMEONE'S death.

Militaristic societies, instead, also value reliability. You don't have to be the best, so long as you get results. This leads to less risk-taking behavior and less instability in the hierarchy.

brisk perch
plain cosmos
#

Indeed. The Imperials are probably the closest example of a Militaristic society in TES. And while TES in general exists on the threshold of the economic transition, the availability of good quality arms and armour leans it on the side of Warrior Cultures being unsustainable in the face of aggression.

fathom jewel
#

Ewww. It sounds all very.....goosesteppy, so to speak. Maybe it would be better if the Ka Po Tun did conquer Tamriel. The Tamrielans really don't seem to be able to manage their own affairs rationally (though I still think the Dunmer, with all their faults, are probably the smartest of the bunch.)

sweet plume
fathom jewel
sweet plume
#

The moment you try your only causing everyone else to do the same and retaliate with all of them combined as well. The Enemy of My Enemy is my friend.

fathom jewel
# sweet plume The moment you try your only causing everyone else to do the same and retaliate ...

Fair enough. So any akaviri invasion of Tamriel will have to be done in a smart way. Maybe try a divide and conquer approach, starting with the most disorganized, depopulated province: Skyrim. Cut a deal with the Dunmer - maybe a mutual defense treaty. Help them against the Argonians in an effective way, and ask them to return the favor by providing privileged access to a port like Blacklight for staging a logistical hub. Or maybe the Dunmer want to conquer Black Marsh once and for all and turn it into a slave colony. Promise them support that includes a naval landing behind Argonian defensive lines to the east with a Tang Mo infantry force - the Tang Mo being adapted to marshy, island-strewn terrain. Then use a Dunmer-owned Black Marsh as a staging area to invade Cyrodiil. Just some ideas.

sweet plume
#

Slavery is outlawed my guy

fathom jewel
#

Really? I thought the Dunmer still had slaves.

sweet plume
#

Not officially, those that do are most likely in hiding and owning them illegally

fathom jewel
# sweet plume Not officially, those that do are most likely in hiding and owning them illegall...

OK then - the Ka Po Tun (if they truly do conquer all of Akavir) should cut a deal with the Dunmer whereby they become allies and Blacklight becomes the staging point for an Akaviri conquest of Skyrim. At the same time, the Ka Po Tun should cut a deal with the Thalmor, promising logistical support for a Thalmor conquest of the rest of the human lands (HF, HR, Cyrodiil.) Such a Thalmor attempt will almost certainly fail, weakening them in the process and opening up further opportunities for diplomatic maneuver and military adventurism for the Ka Po Tun. Divide and conquer.

plain cosmos
#

Nah. Let the Dominion conquer Tamriel. The age of man has run it's course, is time for Mer to clean up the mess.

gaunt bear
fathom jewel
# plain cosmos Nah. Let the Dominion conquer Tamriel. The age of man has run it's course, is ti...

LOL! That's quite a burden you're placing on them. Would be nice if they could come to some sort of mutual accomodation with the Bretons and Dunmer along with the betmer. For the rest, it ought to be more like "STOP ACTING LIKE IDIOTS!" and get them to clean up their provinces and stop bickering amongst themselves. Fact is, the Nords are going to have their hands full trying to keep the Falmer from overrunning them, so not only won't they be in a position to resist an Altmer/Thalmor takeover but, if they were smart, they'd actually seek their help and support. Cyrodiil will probably do much better broken up into nibenese and colovian halves and with the imperial presence eliminated, and the redguards need to have the forbear/crown spat settled once and for all (it's absolutely insane that they're STILL squabbling about that after THOUSANDS OF YEARS. Absolute morons.)

proven moss
#

I got something to share with you guys. This is from the old official forums:
https://web.archive.org/web/20200217023838/http://forums.bethsoft.com/topic/1430120-this-many-goblins-left-the-cave/

Bethesda Softworks Forums
This Many Goblins Left the Cave - Elder Scrolls Lore

Page 1 of 8 - This Many Goblins Left the Cave - posted in Elder Scrolls Lore: So this one time there was these goblins in a cave. These goblins...How many goblins was there?It don't matter. Anyways, there was these goblins, okay, and so then this one goblin says...What goblin was it?It don't matter. This one goblin says "Why we don't go out t...

#

I found a lot of satisfaction and amusement reading all the comments proposing that the developers put the story into TES VI. Halcyon days.

#

Anyway, not much to explain here. It's just a retelling of the monomyth, through goblin eyes

fathom jewel
#

🤣 AGREED! This should be in ES6, or things like it.

proven moss
#

One person suggested that you could overhear goblins telling the story in the cave, except in the goblin language; so you'd need subtitles to know what's being said. I think that's the best idea.

fathom jewel
#

Something that's definitely missing in ES stories - comedy, including farcical situations.

gaunt bear
#

I’ve got one in my Dragon Age: The Lost Scrolls fanfiction, if you’re interested:

One thing I’ve got planned for Matthias (I.e. the Last Dragonborn) is that a Desire Demon (||as in sexual desire||) tries to * buzz * him in his dreams, only to find him to be more than she bargained for. Because of this, the Dragonborn stuffs her silly, thereby making her blow up like a balloon/blueberry, and then pulls her into the waking/mortal world with no idea what he did.

When asked about what she did, the only thing she can really say is, “Bi-bi-bi-buh-big! H-h-h-huge! Muh-monster!! Bi-bi-biggest man I ever saw!!!”, much to the amusement of several people.

This then leads to a perfect “This time we didn’t forget the gravy” moment (||https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aH7bEytedtE||) where a scamp and a dremora decide to pour refined lyrium/“gravy” down her throat.

YouTube
Fang Wolfox
...this time we didn't forget the gravy

An unfortunante bully of a dog gets his just deserts.

▶ Play video
gaunt bear
#

Don’t worry, it’s not red lyrium. They’re not that stupid.

fathom jewel
brisk perch
#

Yep, most of the TES lore has beem coming to ESO so it makes a lot of sense to have tons of back and forth. There are some MAJOR lore implications coming soon to ESO. We may even see them this week.

fathom jewel
#

Would be very interested in hearing anything concerning HF lore out of ESO as a sort of 'coming attractions'

plain cosmos
#

Still, it's always positive to hear that they're at least regularly talking to ESO's team. Maybe some of the passion will rub off on them.

fathom jewel
gaunt bear
sweet plume
#

He’s off somewhere getting Jyggy with it.

brisk perch
#

New prologue is now active on ESO.
Beware of new lore spoilers ||involving the Magne-Ge, all of them.||

fathom jewel
#

Anything in particular that might relate to ES6 and its assumed location of HF?

brisk perch
# fathom jewel Anything in particular that might relate to ES6 and its assumed location of HF?

Hmm... well there are some things.

WARNING, this post contains spoilers involving Necrom Chapter for ESO, and the Prologue Prisoner of Fate.

||Fargrave, a city within Oblivion with no prince is a land of sand with architecture that is very clearly inspired by, or is the inspiration of, old Yokudan architecture||
||Mirrormoor, the Oblivion Realm of Ithelia, the Forgotten Daedric Prince, is shown to match exactly with Fargrave, and implies heavily that Fargrave used to be part of Mirrormoor, which matches up since it is a realm where paths to other realms are found, since she is the Prince of Paths.||
||Her followers whether they are actually following her will or are just remembering who they are or that they even exist, are often made of or themed after mirrors and glass.||
||She is a reality warper that can alter fate, and was the first of the Magne-Ge.||
||The recollections might imply that what remained of the Aylieds may have become Bosmer or integrated with Bosmer society with the fall, or with her disappearance. I am not sure when she disappeared, but the timing of her being forgotten might not be relevant since the impacts likely occurred across the past and future.||
||We do not know if she is malevolent or even directing her followers, but her connections to Fargrave/Mirrormoor, the Celestial Palanquin, likely link her to ancient Yokudans||
||Also, fun little tidbit, her lore is actually using cut, though publicly discussed, early development concepts for the player in ESO, heavily implying that we were always connected with her||

Also, revelation from the ending of the prologue:
||Apparently, all mortals might have the ability to change fate, hence why they can be useful to older spirits like Hermaeus Mora.||

#

Oh, one more thing: ||My theory based on the last bit is that she gave up a bit of herself such that all mortals can change their fates, i.e. every mortal has the potential to be the prisoner, even though mortals are the only ones that are not a prisoner of fate||

brisk perch
#

||Merid-Nunda, now Meridia, is also a Daedric Prince. Depending on your interpretation of their 7 other sisters... we might already have met more of them.||

sweet plume
#

Spoilers my Brother

brisk perch
#

Use || around what you post to put them in spoilers.

fathom jewel
#

Oops - sorry, guys.

plain cosmos
#

It's worth noting that the standard measure for Aedra, Daedra and Magne-Ge doesn't actually hold up to any degree of scrutiny.

#

Due to the mobility of individuals through, for lack of a better term, Phyla, it's clear that the actual divisions have nothing to do with the orthodoxy criteria of participation in Creation. Combined with the fact that there are a few Daedra we know took some sort of active role in Creation (Azura for instance) we can pretty safely disregard the standard method of delineation.

#

The only criteria that holds up is Place of Residence.

Daedra reside in Oblivion.

Magne-Ge reside in Aetherius.

Aedra reside in (mostly, based on their plane(t)s) Mundus.

brisk perch
#

Story on ||Magne-Ge|| got major reveals yesterday.

#

||Aedra vs Daedra is not clear, really, for older spirits/beings that were alive back then, while Magne-Ge are specifically born from/created from Magnus/Magna/Magrus/etc. Each has their specific color, and are some of the entities we know already. Like the Green Magne-Ge might actually be the Green itself.||

plain cosmos
#

So, powerless and irrelevant then.

#

I'm just being overly sardonic in the last point

brisk perch
#

Nah, definitely not powerless. ||Magne-Ge still have power over Nirn, but might have very specific roles/powers. We do not know how many of the Nine that were named yesterday in the Prologue lorebooks are still active all the time, or just active only when needed.||

plain cosmos
#

I was more poking at my general contempt for ESOs Bosmer and the Green as an active force, not specifically on the Magne-Ge.

sweet plume
fathom jewel
sweet plume
fathom jewel
sweet plume
fathom jewel
# sweet plume Ah

Yeah, man - if you watch the vid (which is brief), very soon into it you'll want to say "Todd, pleez stop talking pleez." 😉

upper field
#

So do we know how many of the Daedric Princes were around at the time when Nirn was being created? I seem to recall some appearing afterwards?

fathom jewel
#

I think Mehrunes Dagon appeared afterwards, but I'm not 100% sure. I'm reasonably sure Malacath was created afterwards, even though he's a 'derivative' of Trinimac.

plain cosmos
fathom jewel
#

Does it still make sense to distinguish between the Aedra and Daedra? The reason I'm mulling it over is that all the Aedra regretted their decision to give up some of their power to help Lorkhan and Magnus create Nirn (or at least that's my understanding.) Also, some of the Daedra apparently had a hand in creating Nirn as well - Azurah, for one. So it seems to me that there's really not much separating the two groups. I might be oversimplifying things, though.

brisk perch
#

The difference, and what actually happened across the variations of creation, might be more on how they were viewed afterwards, rather than something innate before the events.

gaunt bear
#

Matthias (My Dragonborn): Viarmo and Giraud Germaine, I’ve been exploring the new abilities I’ve been (supposedly) developing ever since the opening of the Breach, and I’ve encountered a fox-like spirit that seems to know what really happened between King Olaf and Numinex, and between Olaf and Solitude. It might take a bit of time to both question the spirit and sift his words (especially since I an only encounter him while dreaming), but I’m pretty sure I can find out more.

fathom jewel
#

Viarmo responds - "Wait a minute: you're dreaming that you're talking to a FOX? That's weird, pal."

#

Giraud - "Yeah, it's weird. Everybody else dreams of a hot chick."

#

Viarmo - "Not everybody. Some people dream about flying, or places they'd like to go, or place they've been. But NOBODY dreams about 'animal spirits.' That's weird."

#

Giraud - "Yeah, it's weird."

gaunt bear
#

Matthias - Well, everything about me, and my being Dragonborn, has been steadily getting weirder ever since the Breach opened, but you’re better off talking to Solas, Dorian, and Vivienne about the Fade (||https://dragonage.fandom.com/wiki/Fade||) than me.

What I do know is that the Fade keeps Oblivion, Mundus, and Aetherius from drifting further apart and keeps them from overflowing into each other; mortal minds travel there when dreaming; and that spirits and demons inhabit it, like fish inhabit the sea.

I’ve also found myself knowing more about things that I have no idea how I know, like I know that foxes were associated with Shor in Ancient Atmora, and that Atmora was wracked with civil war before it turned to ice.

#

I’ll have to tell you more later.

fathom jewel
#

Viarmo - "Now you're really scarin' me, Matt."

#

Giraud - "Yeah, you're scarin' me too."