elder-scrolls-general-chat

[ornate hollow]

I bought TESA: Redgaurd

[feral viper]

https://tenor.com/view/redguard-cyrus-cyrus-the-restless-the-elder-scrolls-elder-scrolls-gif-6093947027707536300

[ornate hollow]

I don't have an Nvidia GPU so I can't fiddle around with it in RTX Remix.

[bleak furnace]

I read the steam beta update announcement and wanted to join beta. But when I click properties for oblivion remastered & then betas it only shows “None”

Oh it doesn’t start until tomorrow lol

[fair chasm]

says it wont be in til tomorrow

[radiant moss]

Don't think you'd be able to anyway, I don't think Remix would support 3DFX's Glide API or the game's software renderer.

[bleak furnace]

Hope it doesn’t break upscaling & AA like the game pass patch did that time 😂

[ornate hollow]

https://www.dsogaming.com/videotrailer-news/heres-the-original-tomb-raider-with-rtx-remix-path-tracing/

You know what, I'll make it my first project.

I've been taking the time to learn C++ the past 6 months.

[radiant moss]

...look at the video. It's using a fork of an open-source engine recreation called OpenLara.

However a forum post here says you can use nGlide to convert 3DFX's API to DX9, then use Remix to convert it to Vulkan - so if that unholy mess chain works it'd be legendary for Redguard

[ornate hollow]

I keep telling myself this is going to fun. It's probably going to be a year before I finish.

[ornate hollow]

This is all IF I had a Nvidia GPU.

I'm keeping the AMD GPU.

[hollow wadi]

We were robbed of the sequel that would take place in Elsweyr

Paradise Sugar would've been awesome

[shell swan]

Wasn't it the Eye of Argonia?

[shell swan]

Redguard is great in terms of story, but its controls suck.

[tight charm]

There were two ideas, but I believe only Eye of Argonia ever made it further than a concept.

[shell swan]

IIRC, Eye of Argonia gets referenced in Tribunal

[tight charm]

Yeah, Trels Varis makes a reference to it.

Well, technically, the Nerevarine references it to him.

TRELS: "What are you doing here? And may I suggest you make your answer very clear, because this office and what we do here is a well-kept-secret. And we wish to keep it a secret, even if it means that you do not leave here alive."
Nerevarine: I'm looking for the Eye of Argonia.

[stone sparrow]

a

[tall spindle]

Nightdive announcement official release date for SiN Reloaded ?

https://store.steampowered.com/app/632950/SiN_Reloaded/?curator_clanid=5644295

Steam

SiN Reloaded

AUGUST 1ST UPDATE: Hey everyone! You may have noticed that there have not been any updates on SiN: Reloaded in quite some time and there’s a good reason for that. As we've been focusing on other projects that exceeded the expected period of development due to reasons that have been stated several times until now, this unfortunately had an imp…

Release Date

To be announced

▶ Play video

[nimble pond]

Idk how it would be done. But as a mod or even fan animation. I'd love to see TES characters vs. Fallout characters. Magic blasting off everywhere, mini-nukes dropping..

[hollow wadi]

I'm surprised no enterprising modder has made a crossover mod based on this honestly

[hot vine]

Disappointed that we still don’t have the follower bug fixed.

[feral viper]

Look, it's 2025. You should be content that Dragons fly the right way round in Skyrim

[hot vine]

Not talking about Skyrim

[timid drum]

Not always, i got a clip where I was riding the dragon and it bugged through the map

[feral viper]

I was making a joke about bug fixes, not really citing a particular game.

[hot vine]

Nice joke, was hilarious

You were replying to me, who was talking about KON followers.

[feral viper]

Backwards flying dragons were simply the most clearly obvious bug that I could think of over the last 30 years.

Aside from slipping through asset seams and falling through the world, that's been a problem since Morrowind.

[timid drum]

Agreed

[feral viper]

I can't for the life of me figure out WHY either. Even other games with the Netimerse Engine didn't have that problem, and it's migrated with Bethesda across 2 additional engines.

[timid drum]

It was a permant April fools prank lol

[feral viper]

Like the Giant Space Program, it was just so funny they left it in deliberately

[pulsar root]

Akatosh has a sense of humor ¯_(ツ)_/¯

[timid drum]

Yup
I still remember my first time, then the following times were intentional cause it was hilarious

[feral viper]

He also has a great sense of time

https://tenor.com/view/gary-spongebob-spongebob-meme-drum-gif-13282653510173043160

[dim reef]

It's probably lag

Or rubber banding, same thing that happens in racing games

[nimble pond]

Could do it either way, Fallout platform you walk into a TES reality locked away in a vault (or virtual like how they did the Chinese invasion sim in F3) -OR- TES platform you walk into a Fallout reality in a realm.

[nimble pond]

Huh, flying dragon races?

[dim reef]

Yeah. Rubberbanding happens if the game wants something in a specific area as quick as possible so it often appears like they're sliding back or forward off-sync with the animation. It happens outside of racing games too.

It's hard to explain, i wish i had some video example of it

[nimble pond]

If they won't bring back telekinesis, maybe portaling as a substitute? You know input item into portal, output over someone's head. And let gravity take care the rest. Maybe even teleport a bandit or yourself.
Though it would be even more fun to have both, telekinesis and teleporting.

[livid ingot]

I would basically like every spell effect we've ever had back + new ones

Telekinesis just needs better implementation

It's a crime you can't throw switches with it through a gate for example

Or 'catch' doors

Or throw things (and do damage)

[nimble pond]

Fr my friend, fr. There's so many inventive, fun things to do with it!

Got a group of enemies in front of you and a large object nearby? Time to go bowling!

This one might be a bit of a reach, but I'd love to be able to pull a star right out of the sky onto someone's head.

And ik I've seen it in mods, but beams spells would be cool, especially when you're testing yours against another mage
https://media.tenor.com/zzagSRf9HPIAAAAM/godzilla.gif

[jade plover]

Telekinesis must have a purpose. It was almost useless in tes. They have to make it work in fights. For example throwing items must deal big damage, comparable to two handed weapon. Or player should be able to pull enemies like vampire lord

Ah yes, you said the same

[feral viper]

That's a general problem across the franchise with utility magic. If it's not doing damage or healing, Magic Effects have been kinda useless.

Except for Feather, which basically becomes mandatory

But that's symptomatic of wider game design issues, and not so much with magic directly.

[maiden raven]

finally some announcement and a first part of the patch ❤️
I will hold off till the performance patch, but i am glad we are heard.

[charred heron]

Just make it how telekinesis worked in Morrowind it's quite simple but effective in Morrowind. Allows you to dodge traps by lock picking from very far away

In oblivion I think its intended to have that purpose of throwing items at your enemy. Idk how well it worked in theory though

[quasi orchid]

a

[fading shell]

Hey i'd need help with teso's dlc can u help me

[sacred osprey]

I think it would be cool if we could add the ability to stop arrows and/or turn them around to fire back using Telekinesis

[eager remnant]

This is a chat for the single-player Elder Scrolls games made by Bethesda Game Studios. Questions or comments concerning Elder Scrolls Online should be posted on the ZeniMax Online Studios forums. You can find their forums here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en

[primal olive]

#beth-tes-gen-chat /j

nawh it makes sense though

[rocky basin]

Ultimately, making utility spells more useful requires making the world more deadly and inconvenient and maybe more realistic by default. If drowning was the threat it represented in reality (particularly if you decide to swim across a lake in full ebony armor or something), then water breathing/walking would be critical, or else water would be about as lethal an obstacle as it is for a platformer character. Same for slowfall and the realistic likelihood of taking falling damage in dark caves, steep hills, and crumbling ruins. If fast travel didn't bypass all enemy encounters and/or time passing actually mattered for completing quests and just existing and surviving required some cost over time, then teleportation would be a major boon, even if you weren't just noping out of bad combat situations. If caves inhabited only by monsters were pitch black and didn't randomly have eternally burning torches and candles for convenience, then light spells or night eye would be very useful, especially for adventures who don't want to dedicate one hand to a torch. If residents of inhabited caves actually had keys for their chests, then Detect Key could save some lockpicks. There are lots of ways for telekinesis to made more useful. At any rate, a key is only useful if you add a lock for it, same for utility magic and environmental problems to overcome. I do wish that magic, in general, was more flexible and made to work well with freeform environmental puzzles and manipulation. Mages are supposed to be the "smart" characters, so using a smaller set of abilities very tactically and situationally seems more fitting for the archetype.

[feral viper]

Oh, absolutely.

It's not exactly a Bethesda problem either. It's an industry wide thing. RPGs are simply not designed in such a way to make utility spells really useful. That problem is industry wide..

[red lance]

If you go back in time a bit, some quality of life was within the utility spells themselves. Mark and Recall, or Almsivi Intervention for example were teleportation spells in Morrowind where Fast Travel was very limited.

Then things like Levitation for example were not present in games like Skyrim or Oblivion because of the problems they presented with the technology and how we load into game cells.

However games like Baldur's Gate have shown us you can have a design space where utility spells do come in handy (Create Water, Silence, Detect Thoughts, Speak with Animal, Speak with Dead, Disguise Self, etc).

Utility spells can work in modern games but it's going to take a little of going against the grain in an industry that's become obsessed with comfort and accessibility.

[livid ingot]

That's a good point

[jade plover]

Based

[jade plover]

Well, the thing is most games don't even have utility magic so they are not trying to do it. While elder scrolls has these spells but they can't be used properly. They removed a lot of useless stuff from magic in skyrim though, but they forgot to add something interesting instead of it

[dim reef]

Bioshock did it fairly well although yes it's not a full blown rpg

[jade plover]

Yes, immersive games have very good use of magic because you can interact with the world using it. Baldur's gate is the best example in this case

[dim reef]

BG isn't really an immersive sim tho

[jade plover]

Only because it's in turn party game. But it has all the other immersive sim fearures

[dim reef]

I'd say it's more of a normal rpg with immersive sim elements

Same way Bioshock was an immersive sim with some rpg elements

[red lance]

What does that have to do with the discussion though. The argument that it's very doable still applies. I cited Morrowind specifically for that purpose as well.

[dim reef]

As for Bethesda. I think Starfield's powers were really well handled

[red lance]

Incredibly boring to acquire but the powers themselves were very cool.

[dim reef]

Ye. They make use of the environment well.
If they can expand on that in ES6's magic that'll be cool

[ornate hollow]

Isn't it Friday night?

This server was more busy during the usual working hours(9-5) here in the US.

Tbh that goes for all time zones here when they have those hours.

I'll get back to oblivion remastered in the the morning.

[sacred osprey]

My only complaint is that there isn't really a way to build for it once you unlock them. There should have been an entirely new perk tree for it.

Other than that, it's lowkey the reason I liked Starfield

[frank stone]

i wasnt expecting updates on the oblivion remastered tbh

[midnight stag]

Where’s my post that was on here last night

[dim reef]

Falling AAAAA uugh overreacts and looks around

Where am I?

[midnight stag]

Did my post get deleted is that why I don’t see it anymore and why bots would you answer me

[bitter kestrel]

As per rules we do not allow rumours or misinformation, this includes posting about apparent insider leaks

[midnight stag]

Oh sorry I guess I didn’t know about the last part sorry

[bitter kestrel]

No problem, thanks for understanding 😁

[midnight stag]

I didn’t get into too much trouble did I and if I ever post something like that again just delete it I won’t care

[bitter kestrel]

Nope, not in any trouble! Just letting you know for the future

[feral viper]

True enough.

But even then, a lot of utility spells even in Morrowind were basically rubbish. Drain spells had no real function except for on the player, because star scaling didn't work the same on NPCs.

Corrode had no value outside of combat, because it only worked on equipment. And even in combat it was basically useless because Durability in TES has always been handled like hot garbage.

Charm spells, across the board, have been rubbish, resorting to flat mind control which has no real value beyond creating disposable minions. (Though on the Tabletop, good GM/DMs can easily sidestep the stupidity of the spells).

You are right though, BG3 (and to an extent Bioshock, I didn't miss you @dim reef ) have shown that it definitely is possible.

But doing so requires a greater focus on the world and non-combat activities. Which have always been secondary concerns in Bethesda games.

[dim reef]

You never know with them. They might focus on it.
I mean Starfield has some really decent parkour which i never expected to find in a bethesda game

That's actually something I'm hoping for in ES6.
More vertical level design that utilizes the parkour system more

[feral viper]

Yeah. Starfield at least seems to have tried to go back to open cities, which is a major improvement over their design since Oblivion. So we may see a return of things like Levitation and Climbing.

Though, I'm a bit of a radical... I don't want traditional levitation. I want Starfield micrograv as levitation..

[rocky basin]

Same. I hope they keep building on what they have, adding more moves like rolling, swinging, vaulting, wall running, etc. I kinda feel like if I max out the game's equivalent of athletics and acrobatics, I should be navigating the map like I'm a character in Naruto. Hopefully climbing comes back too. Maybe add some rope arrows.

[crimson edge]

I want open cities to be back, sure, but please don't copy Starfield's method... Argh. I prefer my smaller, and cozier, cities that has only named NPCs with proper schedules.

[feral viper]

You and I both. The blank drones taking up space make cities feel so artificial

Like a creepy 80s animatronic show, rather than a living city.

[crimson edge]

Plus, no schedules for the named NPCs.

I get that was a thing for older titles, like Daggerfall or Morrowind... But having those improvements in other titles from Oblivion to Fallout 4 is really nice for the immersion, and seeing them get canned in Starfield is just owch.

[pulsar root]

You're missing the point. Starfield had open cities but that wasn't a flaw. All the hundreds of world spaces(Planets rather) spread out the locations to visit which is very different to the Bethesda RPG experience.

TLDR: Lots of Planets.

[feral viper]

The open cities weren't a flaw. The poor NPC integration was.

[frank shuttle]

to any of the bethesda guys , can you make please Oblivion in VR? Or the new one Elder scroll 6 please also make it in VR the tech is there so you can use it

[frank shuttle]

why is that not good?itwoud be super to have this also in vr

[feral viper]

Some people just don't like VR. And people can be quite forceful when they don't like something.

[charred heron]

The new elder scrolls probably will be ported to VR. It's not for me but some might play it

[feral viper]

I know I'm guilty of that sometimes.

[charred heron]

VR isn't my cup of tea. It's too much for me to handle due to autism

But some gamers may enjoy it tbf

[dim reef]

Ready for TES VI?

Atleast 1-2 more years I'd wager

But we may get a cgi trailer today. Who knows

Maybe reveal the main theme, story ideas and map?

[finite vigil]

Hi everyone

[stark flower]

Friendly reminder to keep in mind the rules regarding rumors-

Rumors & Datamined Content
We do not allow the sharing of or discussion about rumors, datamined content, or any other unofficial information that has not been officially released or shared. This applies to ZeniMax, Bethesda, and any associated companies and games.

[hollow wadi]

I'd be happy with just a title reveal so people can stop arguing if it takes place in Hammerfell or not

I'm an Elsweyr believer but I know it ain't happening

[dim reef]

What if it's both

[pulsar root]

no

[dire horizon]

🙏

[atomic jay]

Sooooo. We expecting anything today for elder scrolls 6 lmao.

[nova parcel]

What will happen on June 18? TESO was shown at Xbox Games Showcase 2025

[charred heron]

I believe some add on to the main storyline is being released for ESO as a DLC

[hollow wadi]

There's an outside chance

[nova parcel]

or a DLC release for consoles

[charred heron]

Something like that yeah

It can be seen on the marketplace for consoles anyway. Idk much more than that about it

[thorn vigil]

Happy for you guys

[atomic jay]

So no elder scrolls 6 I’m guessing

[hollow wadi]

This showcase is already great so I wouldn't mind

Here we go, one more thing

This might be it

Nevermind, something else

[atomic jay]

Lmao

Immediate disappointment

[hollow wadi]

I expected it, still would've been cool tho

[atomic jay]

Is their any other big gaming showcases or conventions this year where it could be announced

[hollow wadi]

If I was them I'd have capitalised on the success of the OBR and showed another teaser, but I don't work in games marketing so who knows

[atomic jay]

For me it’s been kind of a tame week for game announcements.

[hollow wadi]

Just the game awards, can't remember if Xbox historically have showed up there

[atomic jay]

The more I think about it the more I think they’ll pull a Fallout 4

They’re gonna announce it the same year the game releases I mean

[dapper sluice]

wasted an hour of my life at this showcase to see games that already been released

[dire horizon]

🎣

[atomic jay]

I’m gonna be 30 by the time this game drops 😭

[hollow wadi]

I waited for Cyberpunk since it's 2013 and I thought that wait was extreme

TESVI wait is easily the wildest in gaming history, hope it delivers

[atomic jay]

It’s not gonna deliver

I’ve lost a lot of faith in Bethesda after Starfield

I feel the more we wait the higher the expectations

It won’t be able to meet the game we have in our heads

[haughty lion]

To devs, have trouble with mission for thieves guild. Ahdarji’s Heirloom. The hand maid stuck on road and can’t see her.

[jade plover]

there wont be anything about tes 6 guys

just relax

[atomic jay]

Nothing at the Pc Games Showcase ?

Is there even an inkling on whenever it’ll release ?

[hollow wadi]

Big companies don't reveal games at the PC Games Showcase anymore, just indie and AA devs

[atomic jay]

Damn

I think it’s it’s annoying is all. Every year we get our hopes up and every year their dashed

[hollow wadi]

Bethesda on average take around 4 years between their games since Fallout 3, Starfield released in 2023 so earliest TESVI could come out is 2027

[atomic jay]

I got an XBox cos two years cos I wanted to play the new elder scrolls on it lmao 😭

[atomic jay]

Oh Joy

[hollow wadi]

Lmao I'm sure a lot of people did, now TESVI will almost certainly release on PS5 day 1

[atomic jay]

Lmao. No mods tho. Cos Sony are dumbasses

Sorry about being miserable btw. It’s just annoying is all.

[hollow wadi]

Yeah I get the frustration, games are simply taking way to long to make nowadays

Children who were born when Skyrim released will be darn-near old enough to vote by the time TESVI comes out

[atomic jay]

Skyrim was the first game I got with my own money I was 14

I’m 28 now

If ur estimation is right im gonna be 30 by the time it comes out.

[dim reef]

They were feeding Fallout fans for the last decade.
Now they're turning to the ES side

[eager remnant]

Pfffft, that's young yet. I was older than that when Morrowind came out, lol.

[atomic jay]

I think it was a mistake honestly to announce it in 2018 cos now it just got me feeling like this

[dim reef]

They're like that.
Remember Starfield saying "in work for 25 years" when it was in active dev for 5 years

[atomic jay]

I’m feeling old tho 😭

[hallow socket]

I’ll be almost 30 by then too 😭

[atomic jay]

I hope ur right man. I really hope so.

[dim reef]

I'll be either 21 or 22 if the game comes out in 2026 or 27

Starfield took longer because of covid, the engine upgrade and the sheer scale of planets. I don't think ES will take that long

[atomic jay]

Man how old were you when Skyrim came out

[hallow socket]

Just born?

[dim reef]

Was it 2011 when Skyrim came out or 13?

[atomic jay]

2011

[dim reef]

Then i was 6

[hallow socket]

I was 10

[atomic jay]

Damnnn

Wee babies

[atomic jay]

Elder Scrolls 6 releasing in 2026 does feel right.

[hallow socket]

Wee babies indeed

[dim reef]

If not 2026 then definitely 2027

Unless another pandemic starts or we all die horrifically

[hallow socket]

No fallout 5 until way after elder scrolls 6 too I feel 😪

[atomic jay]

If it’s not out by then I may actually go crazy

[pulsar root]

sometime from 2026-2030(30 would be the most cynical prediction).

[dim reef]

It's actually wild we might get Half Life 3 before ES6

[atomic jay]

Matty Plays had this thing of a Guy with Xbox sources who said they’ve been hearing more and more about the game recently. Like inside Buzz that more details are being shared and jazz

[rotund storm]

Happy 7 year anniversary to the ES6 announcement trailer!!!

[atomic jay]

So that gives me some modicum of hope

[jade plover]

If they wouldnt make starfield and f76 we could already have The Elder Scrolls VII

And fallout 5

[dim reef]

They were trying different things

[glass marlin]

Look I applaud them for attempting a new IP.

No dev team wants to make the same kind of game just because the higher ups wants to make a quick profit. Imagine how the devs making Call of Duty every freaken year or two feel.

[midnight stag]

Is there any other event that Bethesda showcase es6

[feral viper]

That first, bitter taste of that most terrible illusion; Hope.

[dim reef]

I don't think they can go any lower than the catastrophe that was FO76's launch.
They somehow survived that and like nothing happened. SF still sold millions

[feral viper]

Nah. Every single Bethesda game has been lambasted by 'Fans' for almost 30 years.

[dim reef]

Even now.
Look how good the Oblivion remaster did when just last year everyone was mad at them for Starfield being mid

76's narrative about automation in particular is really relatable today

[nimble pond]

Just occured to me while mowing the grass, I hope they juice up horseback combat more. I'm talking riding full speed with a spear and impaling them like a sausage on a pitchfork, carrying them a distance before ejecting them off it.

Wouldn't mind flying combat as well. Like in Skyrim, duking it out with another dragonborn riding a dragon in mid-air.

[bitter kestrel]

Lets get back on topic please, if you would like to discuss other games use #off-topic - thanks!

[nimble pond]

Would be cool if we could use anything we can equip as a weapon too. Smashing someone in the face with a cup or a fish, even a

Also, should we be able to get our own cart since we get horses? For transporting large quantities of goods (with or without you) and makeshift merchanting on the road (assuming we can open shops)?

[hexed sail]

if they cut the grindiness a bit by making raw materials easier to acquire, I would be into them bringing back some of the house building mechanics from hearthfire (and smithing of course) with aid of a card to help you lug your bajillion items across the map

if the sound design of the horse and cart is fire then i'd haul ass across the map all day

[jade plover]

Yeah, i said it many times. They must bring some use to their physics. Like whats the point to be able to move every object if it doesnt do anything? They should do it like in Dark messiah, Prey or bg3. Every object is a weapon

[feral viper]

Right, first off... Messages from Dyno remind me of how we used to joke about never seeing anyone from the Computer Sciences program in Formal Writing classes. Even the Hard Sciences had to learn how to format papers, but the coders and techies never did and it shows. Just a chunky wall of text that makes the eyes cry out in pain.

Second, per improvised weapons. That is more of an animation thing than a raw practicality thing, I think. Animating objects to be held and swung requires either a robust base system, or individual animations for every individual piece of clutter. Which can get difficult.

I DO think there is definitely some room for that though, but it would require a more well defined and mechanically solid Physics System to account for. Because as it is, physics in Bethesda games is less true Physics, and more Flat Earth Physics (down is down because down).

[feral viper]

I think a wider issue with mounted combat stems from reaction times and speed.

Pole-based cavalry combat is basically a point and charge format. There's not a whole lot of reaction time needed, so long as you're in the right general direction.

But other weapons, like swords, maces, etc are far more complicated to use and mechanically orient on horseback. timing gets wonky and then you need to be really generous with hitboxes because you can't control the players posture like you can in real life, etc.

And then you have mounted combat, which is even weirder. Unless you give the horse Tank Controls, controling the independent facing of the horse and the rider is a difficult challenge to address.

In all honesty, I don't know any game that's really done mounted combat well. Competently, sure, but not well.

[noble verge]

If I remember, it was possible to sort of do this in Oblivion by z-grabbing the swinging spike traps and raising them up to fall back down on enemies.

It's more of an exploit than an actual mechanic but it was pretty cool to try.

[feral viper]

Yeah, but that was less to do with the actual physics, and more to do with damage triggers on contact.

Skyrim did some of the same, where you could swing some traps and even rocks at enemies, and they'd take damage in contact. But it was an activated interaction, and wasn't dependent on how fast they were moving, mass, etc.

In fact, you can sometimes cause it to trigger just walking through such obsticals.

[noble verge]

One of the changes I didn't like going from Oblivion to Skyrim was that you could no longer grab non-item, non-interactable world objects like carts and rubble.

[crimson edge]

What.

I've dragged carts around in Skyrim, I'm pretty sure.

[noble verge]

If there's a way to do it, please let me know.

[feral viper]

You CAN, but they weight modifiers dr a lot higher in Skyrim, so everything is much harder to move. Even bodies.

If memory serves, you just hold the interaction-key (E by default, I think) and you can do it.

It's way harder in Skyrim than in Oblivion though.

[timid drum]

Yeah, thats how you do it
Hiding bodies in skyrim is tough work

[drifting dagger]

I hated how difficult it was to move bodies in Skyrim

[hollow wadi]

They need to implement being able to pick up bodies like games with modern stealth systems have for TESVI

[timid drum]

.

[stark flower]

Reminder to please be appropriate.

[noble verge]

I know you can move bodies, items, and certain containers like the corpses in Meridia's temple but I don't ever remember the "e" key being able to move non interactable stuff like rubble, logs, or carts.

[tardy tiger]

If I recall that's to do with their weapons. if you pick up their weapons they're much easier to move.

As it's the loose stuff that makes them hard to move.

[pulsar root]

I've moved bodies before so I knew about that. Sometimes they are really hard to move. I like doing it...even if its a bit silly.

[nimble pond]

Usually I feel it's something the more "sneaky" characters would do. So I think it'd be cool if there was a power or ability you can get from the Thieves Guild that basically allows you to summon Death's shadows or just shadows, reaching up from the ground and pulling the body back down into the ground, disappearing the body for you.

[jade plover]

Like in the film Ghost?

[feral viper]

Part of the irrelevance of moving bodies is the superficial detection states in TES. NPCs don't generally react to dead bodies, only active events within their detection range.

So unlike, say, Thief, there's no point moving a body because the game doesn't actually recognise there's a corpse there and the AI doesn't adapt to it.

[hollow wadi]

Or summon a plague of rats to eat the body Dishonored-style

[jade plover]

Today is tes vi teaser anniversary

It was released 7 years ago

[jade plover]

They should adapt then

Bethesda ows arkane, who made one of the best stealth games ever. They can ask them how to do it

[feral viper]

https://tenor.com/view/star-trek-star-trek-first-contact-borg-borg-collective-adapt-gif-23240427

[safe stratus]

i kinda like that in TES, you can genuinely interpret installing mods and using the console as using CHIM
it all makes sense in universe, ||even the weird mods||

[surreal stream]

I really want to return to the clockwork city in a dlc at some point

[surreal stream]

You can also interpret yourself as the Godhead

[pastel plank]

Not the Micheal kirkbride schizophrenic writing

[shell swan]

Lmao

[livid glade]

I like the weird stuff and I kind of hope they lean into it more in the future. But it seems to me I once saw an interview with Todd da Godd where he said he didn't want the world to be too fantastical because above all Tamriel needed to feel like a place where people could live mundane lives in addition to having grand adventures, or something to that effect. So I doubt the series will ever go full MK.

[dim reef]

I agree, but make the weird stuff kinda hard to find, so it feels like everything is normal but in the depths theres some weirdness lurking

[livid glade]

Yeah, that's really the best way to do it. Helps retain a sense of mystery.

[pulsar root]

Fantastical is fine its a Fantasy world after all and I think MK stuff can be very convoluted and contradictory. Unless you mean the sci-fi stuff then yeah less of that

[pastel plank]

I liked some of his stuff till he introduced his Godhead bs. I personally hated that nonsense. The series will never go full Kirkbride and I'm glad.

[violet fjord]

Not all lore needs to be understood by everyone
I kinda like all the pseudo-gnostic metaphysics and dialectics of myth or whatever kirkbride put in

It's really REALLY cool and next to no other fantasy series even in literature really dedicate to these particular story notes

contradiction, confusion, and obscurity define metaphysics, spirituality, and myth of our real world
why does everything need to be neat, with a nice bow ontop?
and, the good thing is, you don't have to engage with this part of the lore to appreciate or enjoy any of the games

but for me, it brings my mind back to elder srolls wayyyyy more than it would otherwise

[livid ingot]

Yeah, Kirkbride's interest in and knowledge of comparative religion really enriches his world-building.

Not to mention esotericism

[violet fjord]

most world-building in fantasy unfortunately really is allegory or direct rips of real world cultures and religions with different names and aesthetics
mind you, elder scrolls has its examples of that as well
but i struggle to think of a fantasy series that bases its system metaphysics/gods around continental german philosophy and freaking gnostics lmao

like, i'm not gonna pretend i full understand it
i'm not some expert or insanely well read in philosphy and esotericism
but i can REALLY appreciate, that my interest in elder scrolls lore fundamentally forces me to tangle with these real uber-complicated concepts lol

[hexed sail]

for me, something I liked a lot about the presentation of a lot of the lore is that they are typically diagetic and thus follow the same pitfalls of real world historical writings - there is no omniscient narrator with universal truth and there's often no clear indication of which (if any) of the viewpoints presented about something are 100% correct. What I dislike about Kirkbride's stuff is he seems to step outside of that - or at least fans treat his writing as outside of that - i.e. his deep lore presents an objective truth about the world instead of the unreliable narrators found across the lore.

In an an rpg, emphasis on role play, context, I enjoy being able to discover and decide things myself - come to my own conclusions about which history books most accurately convey the history of the world

[feral viper]

I've never found anything wrong with the Godhead stuff. It's pretty basic Gnostic stuff.

My problem is more with his later independent contributions, and his tendency to lean into 'There is no Canon'. Which is utter nonsense.

I do think that TES as a whole has fundamentally gotten worse since his departure though, and the lack of understanding or interest in philosophy, mythology and theology has actively hurt the setting. To the point where I think it's basically irreparable now.

Even when they try to do Philosophy now, it's not great .

But, my opinion of the setting has tanked sufficiently over the last few years, and I get in enough trouble talking about that, that I won't say any more.

More to practical matters... They really should.

The AI in the games is actually not great in this regard. That sort of behaviour isn't new. Thief literally did so in 1998. GTA has been using variable detection states since III.

Stealth, in Bethesda games in general, has always been kinda bad.

Now, in Bethesda's defense, their AI is doing a lot of OTHER things. These aren't specifically Stealth games, so there's always a prioritisation of time and resources to every activity.

You can't do everything well, when you're trying to do so many things.

[shell swan]

Ever read C0DA? It's ridiculous.

[pulsar root]

I just rather it not be convoluted(MK levels of convoluted). I'm generally open minded when it comes to lore but if I find something I dislike, I will say something.

[livid ingot]

Esoteric knowledge is not something all people are ready for.

But the great thing is you can ignore it because it doesn't really affect the world in any way that the player engages with it. It only grants a deeper understanding to those who seek it.

But why do we always end up talking about lore topics in this chat?

[feral viper]

Because lore is ultimately more approachable for people than mechanics and the nitty gritty of game design.

Storytelling is what humans do. It's natural to us. Even those of us that aren't good at it.

The finer points of game design and mechanical loops? Not so much

[fleet reef]

Since it's been seven years since the announcement, I hope es6 is good.

Imo, bethesda feels too safe, which gets boring

[livid ingot]

I've been trying to support new IPs for that reason.

Lots of different fantasy rpgs is good for everyone. Small devs can take bigger risks than Beth can

But the great thing about TES is the generous mod support

So you get this blend of a big budget RP yet with innovative elements introduced by individual modders or small modding teams

If you play PC, at least

[eager remnant]

My impression is exactly the opposite. I'm continually amazed at how almost recklessly willing Bethesda is to take serious risks with each new game, eliminating traditional attributes in Skyrim, traditional skills in Fallout 4, experimenting for the first time with online play in Fallout 76, abandoning hand-crafted landscapes for updated Daggerfall-style random generation in Starfield, ect. To me, none of this is "safe." Safe, to me, is pumping out the same game every years with improved graphics, as we have seen certain other studios do. We may not like Bethesda's willingness to experiment with each game, but I think it is incorrect to accuse them of playing it safe.

[junior ruin]

Accuse seems too strong a word, they were just stating their opinion.

[junior ruin]

I get watchu mean Bethesda games make too little changes for how much time spans between each one of them.

But at the same time they’re technically different from each one, just not to the extent you may expect with other game series

[fleet reef]

It's safe in terms of moral options

[dim reef]

Technically they didn't really eliminate traditional skills in FO4. They just merged them with perks.
It still works by and large the same

Putting 14 points into small guns in FO3 is the same as putting one star in Gunslinger in 4

[livid ingot]

New for BGS maybe, but a lot of their innovations are just chasing fads in the gaming industry I think

[dim reef]

That's what everyone does. Baldur's Gate 3 doesn't do anything revolutionary. It's simply a well made rpg comprising every good rpg element from before

I think at this point. There's nothing left to Innovate, we've already innovated everything.
All we can do now is expand and improve upon what exists

[gloomy anchor]

I was not a fan. I did not like the fighting style. I think divinity original sin was better

[dim reef]

Fair but my point is it doesn't do anything brand new. It simply tries expanding on rpg mechanics that have existed before

As i said. We are at a point where there's not much left to innovate.

[ocean wyvern]

Hello guys

[noble verge]

Feels to me like a lot of fantasy is moving towards a lighter tone in the last decade.

[fleet reef]

Unfortunately

[noble verge]

I'll admit that I liked that Starfield's factions felt relatively morally "safe", largely because being grimdark to the point of comedic satire (Helldivers, Lethal Company, Warhammer 40k, every single cyberpunk-inspired piece of media) is such a big trend in sci-fi games nowadays.

[fleet reef]

50/50 would be better. Like skyrim, having guilds that are morally bad like thieves and dark brotherhood. And having options to kill many people. Best thing we got to starfield is crimson fleet, and even then, the fleet feels very tame. Don't want them all to be dark satire stuff, but the option is nice. Like fonv, you got the taxes faction, slavery faction, and the f you all faction

[drifting dagger]

Idk if the crimson fleet is thaaat tame. I mean it definitely involves murder, murder for hire, smuggling, drugs, contraband including bioweapons/war crimes, it might not be super in your face about it but it’s there

Speaking of being able to end the bad guilds, I wish in SF we could turn in the contraband to the police or something

[pulsar root]

I don't really believe that(Every fantasy turning light that is). I think avoiding turning into Grim dark is good(Well the WH40k dark that is).

[slow loom]

It's all so tame, it's just boring. Compare Fallout 3 & NV to Fallout 4 and you'll know the road we are taking.

[pulsar root]

Those aren't fantasys(They are post apocalypses)

[feral viper]

When Bethesda tries to deliberately go not safe, morally, you get nonsense like The Dark Brotherhood.

No thanks..

Or worse, the Legion in New Vegas, which is just edgy evil to the point of not actually being able to function outside of of device.

I have a generally low opinion of narratives that TRY to push moral greyness though. Because they inevitably fail, in my opinion.

They either rely on not giving you enough information to make a decision so they can rugpull you with the cknsequences (The Witcher) downplay outright atrocious actions and piss poor justifications for the sake of drama (Warcraft) or go comically over the top to the point of tacky (Dark Brotherhood).

Maybe I'm just too solid in my moral principles to see the attempts at nuance.

#VaeVictusDidNothjnfWrong.

Well, at least not until he was in prison...

[slow loom]

https://tenor.com/view/futurama-neutral-gif-8034848

I'm just a bit tired of black and white bad guys. Moral greyness even with a technical good side is still better than nothing. GoT did this well for a while where even the good guys do bad things. Also it's just kind of fun to be bad sometimes and actually have both sides fleshed out.

[slow loom]

I wasn't directly responding to you but more adding to the ongoing conversation. Yes they are different worlds but i was referring to the stories that are told in those worlds. They are much more kid friendly in newer titles.

[pulsar root]

I would not call Fallout 4 kid friendly, not to mention its gore.

[feral viper]

Well... GoT did it well, until it ran out of source material.

Though the shock over Daenerys' transition always makes me laugh. Like, that was telegraphed from season ONE...

I'd also disagree in general though. Bethesda's stories have gotten MORE mature over the last decade.

Oblivion was hands down the low point, as it was for basically everything, but we've gotten a lot more at least attempts at being thought provoking and dealing with deeper topics from them since.

[slow loom]

Does anyone even drop the F bomb in Fallout 4?

Kids are pretty use to gore and i wouldn't really call that adult unless it for horrors sake or gratuitous. Super mutants with their gore sacks are probably the closest to teetering on adult gore.

[feral viper]

I think so? Though, and I say this as a former sailor who swears like one in real life...

I find games leaning on F-bombs to sound nature just sound tacky..

[feral viper]

I could comment on social issues there, but this isn't the place.

But yeah, like... Wild Hunt and all its swearing, nudity, and attempts at being over the top?

That wasn't maturity. That was an angsty teenager trying to sound grown up, but just showing how immature they actually were.

[slow loom]

You either see it or you don't I suppose. I would expect people in a wasteland to speak like a sailor or close to. Etiquette has gone out the window and they probably face death almost everyday. In older games i also found they speak like the player thinks in there head. No one gives a stuff about each other and they aren't afraid to say it.

[harsh crown]

Let's keep this chat focused on the Elder Scrolls games please

[feral viper]

And I'd expect people in a fantasy setting to speak a diverse range of languages and dialects, and you'd barely be able to understand people from a few towns over.

Would anyone actually play TES of they spoke realistically? No. Because you'd have no idea what was going on.

[slow loom]

They still usually find a common tongue such as English in this case.

[feral viper]

And English didn't work the way people think in the past.

For MOST speakers, regional dialects and heavy accents made communication between distant communities very difficult.

Leaders, nobles and traders typically learned and spoke more standardized dialects with more consistency, because they had to interact with people from further afield.

But the standardized communication we recognise today was a later, largely post-enlightenment phenomenon. The Medieval world was far, far different.

[slow loom]

Well it gets a bit tricky when we directly compare a fantasy world with magic to our own and how it developed.

[feral viper]

Even when it directly translates, idioms, profanity and slang changed dramatically.

Reading Shakespeare in modern English, compared to period English, is a fundamentally different experience.

[slow loom]

For one we only have one species that can communicate with words.

[feral viper]

My point is, I wouldn't expect people in a fantasy setting to speak like us. And expecting them to is, in my opinion, just leaning on the immaturity that you're opposed to.

You're literally relying on the same thing your complaining about.

[slow loom]

I'm also talking about a fact in the game that they speak English.

I wouldn't expect the Dwemer and Aylied to speak English as their native tongue even though one learned it.

[feral viper]

The way of speech is secondary to the subject matter being spoken about.

And in this regard, TES in particular has improved, at least a little.

Skyrim for instance included subject matter that we literally are not aloud to talk about here, because of the rules on subject matter. And ESO has been even better in that regard.

Oblivion had nothing of the sort.

Skyrim also at least TRIED to make you ask questions about right and wrong, and your role as a hero.

Oblivion was just a one dimensional, Divine Right Am Good Guise! story.

[slow loom]

ikr i'm trying to end it.

[harsh crown]

Let's move on

[feral viper]

Whatever. It's midnight, it's too late for this.

[slow loom]

You have some good points no doubt.

[feral viper]

Could things be better? Always.

But you can't let perfection get in the way of progress. Encourage MORE progress, but don't ignore what's already been made.

[noble verge]

I like it when fantasy settings use fantasy slang and slurs, like Taffer or N'wah, rather than relying on f-bombs.

[noble verge]

I could share some examples, but it'd quickly veer off-topic.

[dim reef]

Ah right. I can't say that.
Eitherway.

I like that but i personally prefer when fantasy settings use modern slangs.
There's just something so hilarious about some knight dressed in full medieval armor saying something modern

[drifting dagger]

There was an instance of some game recently (I don’t remember which) using the word “clout” and it really irked me

[feral viper]

Well, in their defense... Clout has been around since the 1400s. And it's meant basically the same thing we mean by it, since the mid 1800s.

It's weirdest transition was going from cloth, to hitting something hard. From the latter, going to authority of credibility wasn't a big jump

[feral viper]

We sorta run into a problem with pop culture and reality conflicting in our depictions of history and 'period' fantasy.

Because most people don't actually understand the past, and can't accurately relate to it. For instance, we think of a particular style when we think 'Egyptian'. But Egypt went through a LOT of phases over 3000 years.

Similarly, I remember a Making Of doc for God of War, where the art team talked about having to scrap all their early work because it didn't 'look' Greek. It was all based on historically accurate material, drawn from modern archaeology, but to the average person it didn't read as Greek. So where did they look for inspiration? It wasn't actually Greece, but the Golden Age movies ABOUT Greek Myths.

[pastel plank]

Yapaholic

[feral viper]

A similar problem that crops up a lot, and has cropped up specifically to TES, is Gender. I remember, probably 2 or 3 years ago, there was a big stink in ESO about non-binary characters. There were a few vague ones, but I remember a Argonian being the main focus.

The primary argument was that, in a medieval world, that wouldn't be accepted. And they were forcing modern politics into the game.

However, even in English, there WERE three genders up until the mid-late 1700s. The Neuter Gender was a thing, used to describe masculine presenting females, and feminine presenting males.

Overall point being, unless you've got a degree in the period in question, chances are you're wrong about what it looks like, what they thought, and how they acted.

So basing your suspension of disbelief on that already wrong foundation, isn't a good start.

Especially in a setting where magic is real, and not just the ravings of madmen who have drunk too much arsenic trying to meet God. (Looking at you, Aquinas)

It's worth noting, though, the F-bomb is at least 1st century BCE Roman. And it's always been vulgarity for intercourse, up until WWI. So it WOULD technically be period accurate to a medieval fantasy.

Though I do vastly prefer Battlestar Galactica, Warhammer and Morrowind's approach.

Make up new words that are setting specific, if you really want to swear.

[feral viper]

Oh, I'm sorry. Maybe this is more your speed;

TES6 NeWs WeN!?

[eager remnant]

I have no problem with non-binary characters in a fantasy medieval setting (such as the TES universe). However, if the developers had an NPC use the term "non-binary" in dialogue it would take me out of the game.

[slow loom]

You must be a History or English teacher. Nothing against it you just seem very knowledgeable on the subject.

[tight charm]

I used to think this way until Veilguard used the terms and realized it still fits more than I thought it did in a fantasy world. My personal feelings here of course.

[feral viper]

Anthropology degree.

Despite going more for Archaeology, I ended up going down a Linguistic Anthro rabbit hole for a semester. Ultimately, credits are credits, but didn't really help with the broader focus I was aiming for.

Learned a lot though.

And this is one of those things where good worldbuilding stands out from bad. Or even passable.

Take Gender as an example. Despite the modern fury over it, MOST cultures have trinary gender systems. These are usually Masculine, Feminine, and Other, they don't go into more detail than that.

However, exceptions do exist. The most I'm aware of was 8, though I can't for the life of me remember the name of the people group.

And these systems all have their own words for their genders.

Good worldbuilding can blend these things in seamlessly by using bespoke vocabularies to fill in the holes, without having to lean on modern hot topic language.

[tight charm]

I can’t think of 8, but Jewish culture historically had 7 genders listed in the Talmud.

[stark flower]

Let's get back on topic please. We all know this conversation tends to get out of hand.

[tight charm]

Of course, my couch-sitting tuber friend.

[dim reef]

I don't think it's a problem if the lore of the franchise is entirely fictional with zero semblance of irl medieval times.
Dragon Age does it and it fits well

DA also has spiderman, superman and portal references since DAO.
So it fits that universe

[feral viper]

Right, my point was to emphasize that, when worldbuilding, there are lots of influences one can draw on, since real world cultures have basically already solved all the worldbuilding problems that a writer could encounter.

Except one. The User.

And that end of things is just as complicated, because MOST users have no idea what they're talking about. They don't know what is period accurate, they don't know what history really was, and they don't really know how people thought or acted.

They know what their particular frame of reference is, and what revolves around that.

For instance, there's a reason Skyrim despite its window dressing, is nothing like early medieval nordic.

Because the actual Danish culture, from which Vikings were derived, is so far removed from what people THINK when they hear the word Viking, that it might as well be an entirely different influence.

So, when worldbuilding, you're always trying to juggle influences from real-world sources, and the inherent anachronistic perspective of the user.

And to be entirely honest, almost no one does this well. Not Bethesda, not BioWare, not Blizzard, not CDPR.

[tight charm]

Be nice, dude.

[feral viper]

It's fine, I just ignore them.

[pulsar root]

References are kinda different then actual talk about well yeah... I'm not gonna go deep in it to avoid Mod Wrath.

[feral viper]

Yeah, it was probably not the best example to use. That one's on me.

[feral viper]

Though, to their credit, I will give Bethesda this. They're one of the few that have gotten Egalitarian societies right

[noble verge]

I think there's nothing wrong with deriving fictional settings from pop culture derived depictions of ancient cultures instead of more historically accurate ones.

The less a game prides itself on historical authenticity, the less they'll get raked over the coals for getting stuff "wrong".

For example, one of my favorite medieval movies is A Knight's Tale because it doesn't ever pretend to be even remotely historically accurate and revels in silly anachronisms.

[proper prawn]

Updated the game and now I'm stuttering every 30 sec lol (on PS5)

[feral viper]

Oh absolutely. Which why, generally, I prefer just doing what you want to do.

How people talk, how they act, how they view things in detail doesn't need to fit into some narrow historical box. At least not in my mind.

Another great example is Prince of Egypt. Not getting into the biblical thing, but how the characters speak in that film bears absolutely no resemblance to Egypt during ANY period. It's pretty solidly 1990s speech. Still a fantastic movie.

So whether we're talking about the Thines and Thous of Daggerfall, or the more standard modern vernacular of Skyrim, it's never been a deal breaker for me.

Because I'm already disassociating the speech anyway, since there's no way any of these people would even be speaking English.

[drifting dagger]

I mean…. If you watched it in Hebrew I’m not sure you’d think the same thing. And in English I still don’t think it’s “very 1990’s” sounding. It’s just English. The emotion and way they speak in the film is kind of universal, I don’t think it’s particularly out of place or anything

[feral viper]

Well... Hebrew didn't exist when it's supposed to have taken place, so that'd be anachronistic anyway

[drifting dagger]

The earliest forms of Hebrew did exist at that time

[feral viper]

Though it's heavily anachronistic anyway, because the Exodus never actually occured.

I also wouldn't say it's universal. Because again, English 200 years ago was very different than English today, and even moreso 500 or 1000 years ago.

That difference in language was sorta my whole point.

[feral viper]

Nah. Hebrew emerged in its earliest forms around 1000bce. It emerged out of the Semitic Canaan, with some Phoenician influences.

The Exodus is claimed to have happened between 1500 and 1200bce. At that time, there was no Hebrew as a structured language. It MAY have been a small regional dialect, but there's no actual evidence for that.

[drifting dagger]

You can tell even in the English version they used language and a way of speaking to make it sound older, even biblical. I think calling the Prince of Egypt a good example of out of place language is crazy. Also you didn’t need to call the Bible a lie to make your point.

[drifting dagger]

Earliest forms of Hebrew go back to 1250BC in some estimates, and the Exodus by some historians was at the exact same time.

It was right around the same time, by most accounts

[feral viper]

Look, if you want me to dismantle the biblical narrative, I'm more than happy to take it to DMs. But I imagine you won't like that.

It's besides the point anyway, because you're still wrong.

[drifting dagger]

You shouldn’t have said that, brought it up, etc

[feral viper]

The English version was in modern formal English. This differs from formal English even 200 years ago. And it's radically different from Egyptian.

They used MODERN speech to convey the intended emotion and situation, which is perfectly fine.

[drifting dagger]

Okay so now media has to be the exact language, dialect, wording, etc of the exact same time period and place otherwise it’s a “good example” of out of place language in a film. That’s crazy brother

[feral viper]

Hell, we can even read Shakespeare in multiple different periods of English to convey different subtext.

Reading Shakespeare in the original English, compared to modern English, just based on how words are pronounced, has very different connotations.

In fact, if you read the complete Romeo and Juliet in the original English, it's actually more of a scathing criticism of young love, but that's a whole other topic.

My point, was that you can't lean on ACTUAL historical accuracy, because modern audiences don't live in that context. You need to adapt it to fit with the perspective and bias of the user.

So what you think is period accurate, or even actually is, is basically useless for conveying the actual intent you're going for.

Because languages, perspectives, and priorities change.

[drifting dagger]

Your point, was entirely hypocritical of your multiple days long rant of this subject then. Very cool bro, thanks

[feral viper]

https://tenor.com/view/raquita-gif-9201516

I reiterated my point multiple times. If you didn't get it, that's on you.

But I'll make it very simple.

How characters speak, in game, is irrelevant to the maturity of the subject matter. Needing to cram it into a particular box to cater to a particular suspension of disbelief is, it's self, an immature way of looking at it. Because, 9 times out of 10, how you think it should sound is going to be wrong anyway.

It makes how something is said more important than what is being said. And that entirely misses the content.

No one in these games talks like you'd actually expect them to anyway. Because they're speaking English, for our sakes.

[stark flower]

Friendly reminder to be respectful. If you do not get along with another user, you may block them.

[safe stratus]

in skyrim's thieves guild, there's this guy called rune
he was found as an orphan on a shipwreck by a fisherman, with the only notable object in his possession being a smooth stone with unknown writing on it
he spent his entire life trying to search for leads on this stone to figure out who the hell his parents were, going to the college of winterhold, hiring private investigators, etc., and always ended up empty handed
we can't actually see the stone at any point and this is all the information that is available to the player, though notably rune's race is imperial
this makes me think about the funniest possible option that's also plausible
he's a descendant of Uriel V whose parents tried to come back from akavir and died in the shipwreck
so he's a legitimate heir to the dragon throne but has no possible way of knowing it, and him being an imperial fits

[drifting dagger]

Oooo that’s pretty interesting

[feral viper]

It wouldn't be a legitimate claim, given the change in dynasties since then and the end of the Covenant.

But I certainly like that idea better than the Grey Fox one from years back.

[safe stratus]

the grey fox one doesn't make a lot of sense imo as the curse of the cowl is explicitly broken in oblivion

[feral viper]

Yeah, I always found it pretty sketchy to begin with. In order for the effects to work as required, Rune would have to be 200 years old.

And he ain't no Elf.

Not that anyone at Bethesda can even decide how long Elves are supposed to live anyway.

[safe stratus]

i think i'll adopt him being a descendant of uriel v as my headcanon

[feral viper]

My favourite headcanon from back when I cared about such things, was that the Medes were descendants of Cuhlecain.

[noble verge]

Tsaesci mother

[feral viper]

I've been on the internet too long. Because my first thought was unmentionable slang.

[noble verge]

If I recall, the cowl still works, just doesn't erase your real identity anymore.

[safe stratus]

yes
and it erasing your identity through the curse was the crux of that theory
which makes the theory not work as the curse was broken

[feral viper]

Yeah, Rune's lack of identity, or record of anything to indicate a possible identity, would require the curse to still be in effect

[thick heron]

Why are these scrolls so old

[nimble pond]

I be feeling like an elder scroll today 🥱

[tawdry copper]

Old? stores information that could or could not be vital.... Or just paper that is laying down somewhere?

[feral viper]

Right, probably should have expected that. I'll clean it up.

Silly Aedra, all Daedra know that the best way to record reality-engineering information is on clay tablets.

[dire horizon]

By the time the next one comes out, it'll be called "The Eldest Scrolls"... 🥁

[feral viper]

The Senior Scrolls. The Ancient Scrolls. The Geriatric Scrolls

[slow loom]

History is often written by the victors. To say anything is 100% historically accurate even from only a few hundred years ago is probably incorrect. A lot of it uses small amounts information and passed down knowledge/stories which is like a game of Chinese whispers.

[feral viper]

That adage used to be largely true, yes. But reality is a lot more complicated, and you'd be surprised just how much history is written by the losers.

A major example i can't even go into, given the topic is sensitive to some people.

Morrowind, and the Dunmer, are probably a better example of it specific to TES.

The Empire was the victor. But the Dunmeri perspective from Morrowind was very clearly written by the vanquished. And spitefully so.

[slow loom]

I was going to say that Elder Scrolls captures that unclear history quite well. It turns to us to decide what the truth is.

[feral viper]

More often, it turns to us to cobble together some semblance of a history that makes sense, because it's not written with with any degree of planning or integration in mind.

[pulsar root]

The unreliable narrator is IMO used just a tad too much in ES. Not removed entirely just not to the point it usually is. I have no specifics but I want to make it clear not to overuse said trope.

[feral viper]

My beef has always been using Scholarly Work to try and drive the Unreliable Narrator idea.

Which A: not what scholars do, and B: almost antagonistic towards academia

[slow loom]

It does feel like a lot of the more epic moments in ES have no conclusion which can feel anticlimactic.

[feral viper]

That's more a fundamental flaw with the 'Your Choices Matter' approach to storytelling. Especially when combined with Bethesda's characteristic refusal to force anything on your characters story.

[nimble pond]

I just wanna cast a spell and make it rain septims

[primal olive]

if I ever dies of diabetes I need a snows elf addesed

[pastel plank]

Now they definitely won't be added

[primal olive]

@nimble pond why did you ping all them lol

[obsidian belfry]

Annoying GIF deleted. Please use <@&842429330478071858> and link to a message so all moderators can see it more easily. :).

[nimble pond]

Oops! 😁

[feral viper]

The family. Not the coins.

https://tenor.com/view/pizza-ranch-sauce-mayo-box-gif-24188163

[midnight stag]

Is it possible for es6 to be at June 2026 and release Xbox showcase and coincide with next gen Xbox as a flagship game too

[livid ingot]

It's possible

[livid ingot]

I don't have an opinion on that.

[dusty compass]

they arent making a new console. they want to bring all games to all systems they arent gonna fund a new box when they can just focus all that time and money into perfecting the future of cloud structure and ease of use. i do think they saved any es6 updates for the 25th xbox anniversary show though. seems fitting to do it then where there's a massive spotlight on the show. would love if they just gave us the title though so we can spending the next 2 years discussing possibility of era and stories

im mainly just curious about how and if they are gonna include eso lore into the next game if it does take place after eso era. surely they could include books and stuff about it which is almost like free content they can borrow from zenimax but i know eso players would love to be playing es6 and come across something they were a part of in eso. of course they could always drop us before the eso era but something tells me that's not gonna happen

[hollow wadi]

They'll probably wait to release Fable first before hyping up Tes6 again

[dim reef]

I don't think we're getting anything this year

If it wasn't at Xbox's showcase it likely won't be anywhere else, even the game awards

[hollow wadi]

Yeah and there's still Starfield

Think it's getting two more expansions

[feral viper]

That's what they indicated awhile back, but we're almost a year without a peep on it. May be cut loose after the middling response to shattered space.

Not that it's really relevant, as we're incredibly unlikely that we'll see any news of TES6 this year at least. And, and I think anything in 2026 is being incredibly optimistic.

[little cosmos]

Does anyone else get revisited by Bleak Mine Guards? I'm stuck in an endless loop right now with them telling me I'm living on borrowed time and .. something about breaking all over.

[midnight stag]

I have to be optimistic for 2026

[midnight stag]

Maybe July

[crude solstice]

Possible? Yes. Likely? Wouldn’t count on it

[undone mist]

My favorite Bethesda people! When are you going to let me link my Elder Scrolls PC account with my XBOX account and use Play Anywhere on that?!?!?

[pulsar root]

Far more possible then this year.

[junior ruin]

I’m not counting on ES6 to be released nevertheless revealed in 3 years minimum

So imma have to bank on Oblivion remaster and Elder Scrolls Online to satisfy my ES cravings in the meanwhile

[midnight stag]

Creation engine 2 has made it easier to build a world in less time now that they are getting used to it I mean 3 years for starfield and it had over 1000 planets so building a world for es6 is probably way easier

[junior ruin]

It would be a pleasant surprise to be able to play ES6 in less than 3 years but I’m not hoping for it.

But hey, if Oblivion remaster can happen, I guess it’s not too far fetched to expect the aforementioned

[midnight stag]

Also they didn’t handle oblivion remastered another company did

[junior ruin]

yes yes but it happening at all seemed far fetched before.

[pulsar root]

Well it did so I'm not gonna rule out 2026...until well time passes. No expectations.

[dim reef]

Both of them did. It was a joint effort

[tight charm]

Indeed. It’s bonkers how many people think BGS was completely uninvolved in the remaster. I don’t know where this idea came from.

[dim reef]

As for ES6. I think they should have enough to show something for 2026 even if it's a cgi trailer or just the title/main music reveal

Bethesda games usually take 3-4 years to develop. Starfield took longer because of covid + engine upgrade + 1000 planets.
I don't assume ES6 will take that long

[slow loom]

Most good games with a large scale take 4+ years to develop these days. Hoping it takes less time than that would mostly involve cutting corners and rushing it out.

[dim reef]

Not entirely. It depends on how well the development in managed, you can make large scale games in under 3-4 years.

Obsidian managed to push 3 AAA games this year alone. Two of them being quite big and one being somwhat smaller in scale

[slow loom]

I wouldnt call Avowed a AAA game, maybe a AA+ at best and it wasn't on a large scale with many cut corners imo. Everyone's opinion of what is good enough will be different. I base my opinions on the best in the business and anything below that is most likely not worth my time.

Will it be as good as Witcher 3 & 4, Elden Ring or Kingdom Come Deliverance 2. That is where my bar is set.

If ES6 comes out and it's only as good as Avowed I would consider it a failure and worse than Skyrim.

[dim reef]

What's a good early spell loadout for ESO for a warlock

Or necromancer sorry

[eager remnant]

This is a chat for single-player Elder Scrolls games developed by Bethesda Game Studios. Questions or comments concerning Elder Scrolls Online should be posted on the ZeniMax Online Studios forums. You can find their forums here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en

[pulsar root]

Avowed isn't a failure to be clear, I know its off topic mods but I had to say it.

[undone mist]

It wasn't very good either though. We'd like ES6 to be significantly better than that

[sacred osprey]

My only complaint with Avowed personally would be the writing. Normally I don't pay attention to dialogue but it was just so painfully mid I noticed. Everything else was pretty solid.

Yknow what I think TES games could benefit from? A NG+ that functions like Ratchet & Clank games where you can do a challenge mode & unlock more stuff. Better AI, not so crazy modifiers, etc

[pulsar root]

No need for NG+ I rather they just keep the openness they usually do. I did not care for SF's take on NG+(The alternate universes loop)

[undone mist]

Starfield has a great NG+

[sacred osprey]

True, I just think there should be a bit more incentive outside of doing the same 24 location marathon & seeing small changes

[sacred osprey]

I would off the basis that every TES game feels like I hit the peak and then there's only a little bit of game left.

[undone mist]

Sure, it's their first NG+ as far as I know? I could be wrong and usually am 🙂

[sacred osprey]

Not sure myself but I do agree it was overall handled well. Hope to see at least something like it in every Bethesda game tbh

[pulsar root]

It isn't needed

[tight charm]

I doubt TES VI will have NG+. There’s not a great way to work it into the fold like they could with Starfield.

[sacred osprey]

*isn't needed for you

For me, that would add even more replayability & let me experience an endgame build for more of the game without needing console commands

[sacred osprey]

Unfortunately so, kinda why I was thinking of Ratchet & Clank where NG+ is basically just a copied save slot with modifiers

Doesn't have to be immersive (even though that would be cool)

[pulsar root]

No its not needed. Past Bethesda games haven't needed NG+ to add to the game. Mods do that already to extend the game's lifespan. Some games just don't fit with NG+ either.

[pastel plank]

I know it's hard to grasp but some people play on consoles and don't own a pc, so they don't have access to mods.

Crazy huh?

[sacred osprey]

Mods are great but they're not a valid argument for or against a feature lmao

Plus too, just because other games didn't have it, doesn't mean that it shouldn't exist.

If a feature makes a game overall better for some people while not impacting anybody else, then what exactly is the issue with having it?

[pulsar root]

But they do extend the lifespan of a game much like NG+ does for others. And your claim it makes the game better is hardly mattering considering the example you use is Starfield which basically makes you go to a complete different universe and once you go you can't go to your previous universe or continue to free roam in said game.

Also my argument is completely unrelated to Consoles(And besides Xbox can use mods, Playstation unfortunately but thats a Sony thing).

[sacred osprey]

1] NG+ is an optional thing you can do in Starfield, and you can always save before engaging with the mechanic if that's not something you want.

2] Mods may extend the game, but not everybody wants to rely on content made by people who aren't the developers.

*3] Consoles matter, they account for a significant chunk of the player base. If anything, that just weakens the argument against it since console players are missing out on what PC can just add in.

Going back to what I was saying earlier, not everything has to be about immersion or finding a lore reason for NG+. It's neat but at the end of the day it's a video game. You're going through menus, loading screens, and fetch quests with big markers telling you exactly where it is.

[dim reef]

The thing with NG+ in Starfield is the game doesn't really "end" if you refuse it.
It just stays in your questlog like "i can come back later"
I feel it should've been a hard choice if i refuse it

[sacred osprey]

That's pretty much just Starfield in general. Plays it extremely safe when it comes to not missing out on content.

That's kinda what I've noticed about Oblivion that I liked. You can legit fail and bar yourself from half the content depending on how you go about things.

[dim reef]

Not always. The rest of the quests have definitive choices. It's some areas like this that are really awkward

[pulsar root]

Bethesda does it a lot. You can't exactly get locked out of some content due to choices but thats entirely another design flaw unrelated to NG+

[sacred osprey]

I think there are only two exceptions I can think of off hand, and one of them is related to the Crimson Fleet.

Side quests are a bit different but the faction quests are kinda where it matters

[dim reef]

Nah. Faction quests are where most of the hard choices are. CF vs UC, Vanguard questline, Ryujin questline etc.

[dim reef]

I didn't like how Skyrim had no ending either. There should've been a proper ending with credits and cutscenes like before and you can simply play post end like FO3's broken steel dlc.

[sacred osprey]

The plot is ultimately the same regardless of your choice outside of Crimson Fleet. You had access to everywhere the factions had to offer with little to no consequence outside of specific NPCs taking over or staying in power.

[dim reef]

It's not a dealbreaker but it just feels like you accomplished something big once the credits roll and the end cutscene plays

[sacred osprey]

That's more what I'm referring to. You're not really feature/reward locked in most cases.

[dim reef]

I've seen people complain about locking features. Most seem to want story consequences rather than gameplay locks

[sacred osprey]

Personally for Starfield specifically I would've liked more dramatic gameplay differences since NG+ would be perfect for exploring them outside of fresh playthroughs

but it doesn't bother me much overall. I'll just not engage with certain questlines depending on the playthrough for the sake of character immersion

[dim reef]

I personally hope they bring back proper endings and refusing quests

[sacred osprey]

My main reason for suggesting NG+ for more Bethesda games is because I don't like that there's little game to enjoy once you build up to your end goal.

I'm practically the strongest Arch Mage ever but every single questline except for one completely unrelated to my playstyle is done. It would be nice to go back and do it all over but stronger.

Plus too I could get better items since I'd be an appropriate level.

[sacred osprey]

Me when I sell out the Dark Brotherhood and killing specific members of the Companions, but nothing really happens at the end

[feral viper]

Pfft, TES hasn't had proper endings since Daggerfall.

And I'm not sure you can say doing something that only appeared in a single game, is 'bringing' anything back

[sacred osprey]

I think that was more in reference to Bethesda games as a whole rather than just TES

Because they did site Fallout 3 as a game that had a 'real ending' to it with Broken Steel

[nimble pond]

I don't mind NG+, but I think it's worth investing more into things like jobs, family, farming, real estate, businesses. A lot of this stuff you can really dive into in that same world after your questing is thru. After-activities where you can truly carve out a life of your own

[dire horizon]

Yeah, if they had a NG+ I doubt I'll use it

[junior ruin]

NG+ for Oblivion remaster would be neat.

Needing to make a new character to start over is tedious

[slow loom]

Fallout 4 had multiple endings but i don't think it really made it better. It just made it shorter and you'd just end up reloading saves to play out the other sides.

[junior ruin]

obviously it’ll be optional so ppl who don’t like it don’t have to play it

[pastel plank]

Fallout 4 is a terrible game in general

[eager remnant]

This chat is for the discussion of the Elder Scrolls series. Feel free to discuss Fallout 4 in #fallout-4-chat

[sacred osprey]

Man I ain't got time for all that that's what real life is for 💀

I'm here to sling spells, retrieve cool loot, and have a hand in saving the world from something crazy

[junior ruin]

Thank the divines for the freedom of optional content, you can play the game however you want

[sacred osprey]

True

[nimble pond]

He was just being humorous, he wouldn't be suggesting NG+ if he didn't have time, I'd hope lol

[sacred osprey]

Also true

[nimble pond]

They need to introduce a bandit guild. You got your ordinary bandits (non-guild) and then your organized crime ones (guild). No not like the Thieves Guild and just stealing or DB and murder. More like all-around complete lawless savages upon everyone else in the province, sometimes even each other. Main HQ out in the wild, not in any town and several outposts spread out.
Could be filled/led by ex-Empire soldiers who left because they were fed up with how the Empire was running things. Maybe some angry vets of the wars and battles they've seen and poor treatment. Or this could be completely separate from that and instead be like a vigilante group fed up with the incompetence of the Empire and taking matters into their own hands. (No, not like the stormcloaks where they were directly at war with the Empire itself). These are ex-military looking to do some good against crime around their province.

[sacred osprey]

Me personally I want to join a Necromancer's Cult and become a lich

[nimble pond]

Necromancer's totally. Love any Necromancy in TES.

[dim reef]

Pretty sure Oblivion had a final ending cutscene too.

[nimble pond]

Man, that'd be cool if our player character could be undead. Imagine, the hero of (province), an undead. He/she also has a wife and a newborn on the way, lol.

[dim reef]

TES can finally have some proper romances with TES6 ig. Instead of the joke that was the marriage system in Skyrim

I do hope the companions are more varied. Don't know why all the companions in Starfield are constellation members.
It's like if all of FO4's companions were BoS members

[primal olive]

thanks for doing a task for me, wanna get married under a tradition neither of us follow?
well tbf mara is actually in many faiths

[jade plover]

Well, you can be a vampire wich is a type of undead

[dim reef]

I actually like what they did with Andreja in Starfield. Since she doesn't follow our tradition, you just go out on a pseudo date and consider it marriage

I assume they'll expand on that in ES6 as well based on faiths

[primal olive]

hopefully

[nimble pond]

Oh yea, true! I guess I was thinking about being more daugr-looking? I forget about the vampires cause they look almost like everyone else, when not in their vampire lord form?

[nimble pond]

Yk, vampire fangs would make good arrowheads.

[feral viper]

It was sort of a final conversation, same as Morrowind.

And i use final very lightly, as right after you just go about your day as normal.

[feral viper]

This was sorta played with back in Morrowind too. Dunmeri marriage traditions, at least during that period, seem to have been more of 'We live together? Ok, we're married now'.

It didn't even seem to always be intimate, it was more just a reflection of non-familial cohabitation.

Which is a level of worldbuilding that has been sorely lacking in not just Bethesda settings, but MOST settings, over the years.

Whether or not everything is just a reskinned western tradition, of western oversimplified interpretation of another culture, is a major indicator of the amount of effort put into worldbuilding for me.

[dim reef]

That's what i want. I don't care about ending slides much but just have something substantial like a final convo or cutscene to make the main quest feel like an accomplishment.

[feral viper]

The irony, at least for me, being that most people entirely dismiss everything Azura says in Morrowind, and you don't really accomplish squat in Oblivion, you're just kinda there at the end (though you do the lion's share of the lifting up to that last point).

Starfield tried that though, to its credit.

And IMO, it was atrocious. So much so that the 'final' conversation with yourself in the Unity has the gall to mock you for asking where the artifacts came from.

[dim reef]

What Starfield did with the final convo and quest references was cool.
I just wish choosing to refuse it wasn't brushed aside as a non choice

It was however actually really cool seeing some pseudo ending slides in a Bethesda game again

They figured out how to implement that again, now all they need to figure out is how to end games again.

[eager remnant]

I presume you mean end the main quest, not end the game. I don't want Elder Scrolls games to come to an end (as New Vegas did, for instance). I always want to be able to play past the ending of the main quest. I also hate ending slides with a purple passion. It is lazy (or perhaps just inept) storytelling. The old adage should apply to video games as well as literature: show, don't tell. Two Bethesda games that did this well, in my opinion are Morrowind (where we see the Ghostgate come down and the skies over Red Mountain clear) and Oblivion (where we had a statue of ourselves, where the landscape was littered forever with the ruined reminders of past gates, as with the solidified form of Akatosh in the Imperial City). If it weren't for the Shout gimmick I'm sure dragons would have disappeared at the end of Skyrim's main quest, which would have been nice. But the civil war ends with many changes all over the map, including important NPCs in prison. These are how you show a protagonist's effect on the world, not slides.

[dim reef]

That can simply be remedied by letting you play post game though like Fallout 3's Broken Steel dlc.

I don't see why the main quest can't have it's own grand end cutscene

NV was also originally intended to have a post game but it was cut

[feral viper]

I'm on the opposite side of that coin. I thought it was god awful, and utterly destroyed any good will I had with the main quest up to that point.

It then dove deeper into the 'We didn't think this through' jello swimming pool with your second universe, but that's not a topic for here.

[feral viper]

If only they had cut the rest of the game...

[eager remnant]

Yes, that is what I just said.

[dim reef]

Oh. I thought you meant you hate the idea of an end cutscene at all.
My bad

[feral viper]

But I digress, I'm pretty anti-Alternate Endings in general. I think they're the lowest form of storytelling, and after 3 decades of developers trying to make them work, I have yet to find a single game ever made that was made better BY them.

And since they're all that make those end scenes relevant, I'm not particularly keen on those either.

[dim reef]

Endings aside. I do hope the next game has more wackier drugs

Something like the mutation serums from Fallout 76 that add some wacky buffs and debuffs

[feral viper]

My beef with drugs in games has been the terrible drawbacks.

Not, like, the drawbacks being bad. But their pathetically insignificant drawbacks being terrible.

They should be a risk, not an automatic buff you take.

Rimworld is the best for this, I think. Use Go-Juice? Get a dependence, and your movement and manipulation drops to half if you're not high. Yayo? Pain tolerance goes up, but if you run out you go berserk. Liciferium? Sure, you regrow limbs, but if you go 2 days without you straight up die.

We're at a point where we can do all kinds of more interesting stuff with drugs in games. But we always just skirt around the realities of drugs and make them too fun.

I'd like to see more interesting things with them. Like slowing time (or speeding up your perception) or making you see sounds. With overdose or withdrawal effects in line with hallucinations, debilitating screen shake or drunkenness, or Resource Depletion.

Make it so the uses are powerful, but if you over do it, you're legitimately going to pay for it instead of being mildly inconvenienced for a few minutes.

[burnt kindle]

why is it that everyone else in the game talks with a voice that you can hear, but,, the you the main player cant talk to be heard? we need to have voices to be heard. and have a way better diolog to use. just my opinion tho

[dim reef]

They tried that with Fallout 4 and a lot of people disliked that

I loved it but it was divisive to say the least

[dire horizon]

That's a no from me

[pulsar root]

I didn't have an issue with it but making dialogue with a silent protaganist is easier(No voice over work) And in SF I wasn't too bothered by the lack of a voice.

[dim reef]

I miss it and prefer voices but I've accepted the fate that Bethesda will never try them again

[hollow wadi]

There's too many dialogue options for the player for that to be feasible. Fallout 4 tried it and suffered enormously

[dim reef]

FO4 suffered because of the writing more than voice.
SWTOR for example has WAY more player voicelines than FO, it's possible. Bethesda just didn't do it well

They did do it well in Far Harbor atleast

[hollow wadi]

I mean isn't Swotor an MMO that's been going on for like 15 years? Live service games can afford that since they constantly update the game with new content

[dim reef]

No. Even at launch it had like 8 player characters with 2 separate voices that had hours of content.
It's definitely possible if a company wants

[hollow wadi]

If there's definitive numbers to that then fair enough

[dim reef]

Yeah. It actually held the guiness record for most dialogues in any game ever

[eager remnant]

Voiced protagonists work well with pre-made characters (such as Geralt in the Witcher series). But in games such as the Elder Scrolls series, in which we create our own characters, a voiced protagonist severely limits roleplaying. I don't want my Alter mages to speak with the same voice as my barbarian warriors. I don't want my young, idealistic characters to speak with the same voice as my older, world-weary characters. When I play Fallout 4 I am playing Courteney Taylor's interpretation of Nora, not my own.

[dim reef]

See this is why you have multiple VAs like Bioware

If you choose to do a voiced protagonist that is

I am actually interested to see how that new InXile game handles a voiced protagonist since InXile usually makes blank slate characters

[feral viper]

My stance is basically the same as Pseron's.

As soon as you voice a PC, you are restricting my character options. Because how a character says something is as much a part of their identity as what's being said.

To use FO4s example... What if I want a Bostonian PC? A Cockney British refugee? A Hispanic accent? What if I want them well spoken, or barely literate?

Even BioWare's use of multiple VAs isn't sufficient. It's BETTER, but it's still not enough.

Of course, I also don't like clear prose on my dialogue options for nonVA games.

Make the options clear of intent, but the prose is mine.

[dim reef]

It's definitely a personal preference thing. Better to avoid being divisive.

[feral viper]

It's unfortunately one of those situations where you can't avoid it. You have to pick a side.

Either VA, or nonVA. There's no middle ground.

[dim reef]

Yeah.
I personally prefer voiced protagonists and don't think they limit roleplaying.
but i also accept not everyone likes them.

[slow loom]

I think Bethesda gets pulled every which way. For some people it can be a turn off to have to read the whole game like say in Morrowind.

[dim reef]

I do think Bethesda has enough money to make it optional

[pulsar root]

Just have a silent protaganist(Player) and everything voiced. Safe route.

[dim reef]

Just have a switch to either keep the character voiced or unvoiced.
That should please both sides right?

[slow loom]

It does seem like a fairly easy mod or option to do.

[dim reef]

Realistically though i don't see Bethesda ever attempting that again

Oh. I do hope they keep the reactions to drugs atleast.
It was really funny having your character just roar or shout when taking drugs in FO4

That shouldn't affect much right? Since the player does have normal grunts and pain noises

[feral viper]

True enough there.

[burnt kindle]

maybe someday they will work it out, to give the character a voice, even more diolog to use, would be alot better than what we have now but thankyou for the info

[eager remnant]

"...give the character an optional voice...." I fixed that for you. 🙂

[cinder cradle]

MC should never have a voice. It always ruins the immersion and self-definition of the character

[feral viper]

I wouldn't go so far as to say that it ruins it, but it does compromise it in many ways. For me, anyway.

Some day, maybe, with really good AI generation, it may be doable. But the generation that would take would also solve 99% of the shortcomings of the medium, while at the same time being an ethical quagmire that I don't think anyone wants to deal with.

[cinder cradle]

I would completely disown the Elder Scrolls and Bethesda if they start using generative AI

[timid drum]

Aye same here

[nimble pond]

Idk about all that. But we need more parties in Tamriel! Sanguine be lacking. Hoping for a spell that can turn the entire waters of the Starfall Bay into Honningbrew mead

[glass marlin]

I'm sure something like that would require a massive amount of magicka to cast and maintain.

[sacred osprey]

Just slap on 4 enchants with 25% cost reduction and boom instant seas of mead

[nimble pond]

We need acid too, no not the kind of acid.. I mean the kind that dissolves armor. And some phosgene or freon too. So we can be proper alchemists to attack our foes. Let us cook!

And things like skooma, it'd be nice to actually see hallucinogenic things and let the screen and color go all topsy-turvy-bendy when we take it. Maybe even a quest and the quest giver (some creature/thing thought to be imaginary or of legend, but actually exists. Which i'd be surprised if there isn't already some freak realm where all imaginary things dwell) only viewable in that state.

[feral viper]

Need a proper item degradation system for that

[dim reef]

76 has it

they can put a version of that in future games

[feral viper]

It's pretty poor in 76 as well. Not AS bad as in previous games (and most of the industry for that matter) but still pretty terrible.

There's a good concept in there, Item Degradation, but no one has really nailed the execution yet.

[nimble pond]

No not the armor, I meant just damage to their health. Burn their face off 😄

[feral viper]

Onh straight acid damage is totally doable, yeah

[dim reef]

Gear yes but organic stuff use it pretty well imo. Like how alcoholic stuff ala Moonshine eventually ferments into the proper thing

Or how radioactive flux eventually goes inert

[feral viper]

Oh, yeah, I meant more in line of Durability, not Decay.

[dim reef]

Ah. I see

[feral viper]

I do think certain materials and ingredients should decay, at least on Survival-type game settings, though.

[rocky basin]

But then how will I eat tomatoes that have been sitting in an ancient tomb for about a thousand years?

[feral viper]

With great revulsion

[rocky basin]

I guess I go the other direction -- if they put it on a tight enough leash, and give it enough access to data about player activity, there's a lot of good it could do. Some really reactive radiant quests that make sure your choices lead to meaningful consequences, though maybe not always the expected ones. Random map creation that feels reasonable without being copy/paste. No more "I've seen this same stupid POI 30 times now" Starfield syndrome. Or add more individuality to equipment, to suggest they were crafted by hand and not in a factory. Beyond that, it can be used to help add more flavor to "random" NPCs, at least to the extent you care to look. Some little bits of personality to suggest they have a whole life. There's no reason even a random bandit shouldn't have a name and some relationships or life goals, even if you won't find out about it if you head in spells blazing (overhearing things while ghosting is a different matter). With voice gen, it would be great if it were easier to dramatically expand the amount of spoken dialog without the need to get a VA for everything, especially for functional dialog like giving directions or bartering or something, that could itself be generative. Or more context-aware combat barks. Just write the line and let the AI handle it; save the VA budget for the really important lines in the big quests. Also, once the tech is there to run generation client-side, you can theoretically give every NPC a unique voiceprint, which will go a long way toward making them more distinct and memorable. Oh, one last perk -- no need to make up some random title for the PC to sidestep the issue that VAs can't actually say their name, an issue that never existed before people expected full VA in games. If your character is Bob the Orc, NPC can just call you Bob (or "stupid orc", or whatever they prefer).

[pulsar root]

There is no need for Gen AI in game dev. AI to make some of the tedious aspects of game dev(Or in this case Elder Scrolls) thats fine. Like for instance making Npcs smarter in terms of their daily schedules and such.

[cinder cradle]

I don't support theft of the work of artists and voice actors just to cut the development budget of games for multi-billion dollar companies. They can pay their VAs and artists, or they can burn any good will with the community. We're not talking about oldschool tools like procedural generation which don't rely on the scraping of audio lines and created works of independent artists.

[feral viper]

Yeah, then you're only looking at the tech in a very limited context.

But this topic very quickly pushes the boundaries of what's allowed by the rules here, so best to just leave it be

[dim reef]

One thing i hope they carry over from Fallout into ES is giving the random bandits some lore and personality. I liked how the different raider locations had different bosses and lore and the more you clear out, the other raiders would have radiant dialogues about it

[dim reef]

Well that was fun. in Arena

[hollow wadi]

Or at least some NPC and equipment variety for enemies you'll be fighting in like 50% of combat encounters

[little cosmos]

I just picked up an item that has a value of almost 11,000.. where can i even sell that to get ... even CLOSE to that value?

[rocky basin]

I wonder how they will implement the character system in TES6. Each game has been pretty different, likewise the non-TES RPGs. I actually like Starfield’s system well enough and it would be ok, but I would rather have a hybrid of Skyrim’s constellation-based perk organization and theming, and Starfield’s use of a mixture of XP and limited learn by use. First, Skryim’s way allows for a lot more flexibility in connecting abilities and prereqs and number of ability tiers, rather than being forced into a rigid pattern that doesn’t work well for some abilities or sets of abilities. It also allows preserving the constellation motif, and the traditional TES birthsigns track pretty well with the various gameplay areas they are likely have (though magic is a little arbitrary).

[tight charm]

The constellation theme is really cool aesthetically but limits the # of skills they can implement for no reason. We lost some great skills in the transition from Oblivion to Skyrim that didn’t need to happen.

[eager remnant]

I want TES6 to retain the series' traditional skill-use character leveling system. The skill-use system has been one of the defining features of the Elder Scrolls series since 1996. It sets the series apart from other roleplaying games. Let the Fallout franchise and Starfield have their EXP systems. Bethesda should keep the skill-use system pure and intact in TES6.

[pulsar root]

I still prefer the Skyrim handling of skills, pick up what you want and go for it. Only thing I'd change is maybe not rely on the constellation Aesthetic.

[rocky basin]

What is the best way to manage obtaining discrete abilities like perks? A single point per level-up, like Skyrim, FO, and Starfield? Automatically unlocked like Oblivion? Buy them from trainers like spells? Some kind of point-buy system? Just make everything a leveled skill and skip them?

[livid ingot]

I agree, keep the skill-use leveling system. One change I might make though is eliminate the passive leveling that certain skills get (like Athletics). Make it so that you actually have to perform certain actions to enhance them. I would also like it if training skills via NPCs in the world was a bit more involved... like a minigame for each skill? Or a mini quest (like a sparring match or a race)? Anything more than an exchange of gold.

I've spoken in the past I would like some sort of skill degredation system that would prevent you from maxing out a bunch of skills all at once, but I really doubt that would ever happen

Attributes are probably gone forever too but I have a glimmer of hope given how popular they've proven in the Oblivion remaster

[dusk grove]

How's it going gamers

[eager remnant]

I'll take almost anything over Oblivion's automatically-granted perks. Forcing every character who levels a skill to take the same perks as every other character who levels that skill is not a good roleplaying game mechanic. A good roleplaying game mechanic supports diversity, not enforces conformity. I love perks though. I thought Skyrim gave us a good template to work with. Now they just need to improve on it with a wider variety of perks, particularly perks that substantially change gameplay.

[feral viper]

Agreed. Though I hate pretty much everything Oblivion did, so that's probably a given.

Beyond that, I think Skyrim's is the best foundation to build off.

Leveling Skills grants you exp. Exp gives you Level Ups. Leveling Up gives you a point (or points) to invest in Perks.

There's no reason, however, to strictly limit Perks to Skills the way Skyrim did.

Perks made accessable by Faction membership. Quest completion. Discovery of books or trainers. Or even combinations of OTHER perks.

That's all doable within the system Skyrim presents. You just need to expand the sources of Perks, without having to change the leveling process.

[night hinge]

Hiya guys!! I write backstory for characters on ESO, Skyrim, Oblivion, etc. Just throwing it out here and wondering if people would be interested in reading some of my stuff! I do take requests and write stories for other people’s characters as well!

[feral viper]

Love to see writers. Good, bad, new, old. Writing is the highest form of art.

[night hinge]

Just let me know! Right now, I’m working on my main Stamina Warden, Orvara Syth. Got some juicy stuff going on with her 🙂

[night hinge]

I 100% agree. I’ve been writing stories since I was little, probably since the 4th grade maybe? It gives me the freedom to do whatever I want with the characters that I come up with! It’s super fun and it allows me to express myself too (which can help when I’m feeling down, or even angry). This statement just made my day!

[midnight stag]

What are the chances of es6 coming to Xbox showcase 2026 and release in the same year it would seem that they would want to get Todd Howard out the door

[keen heart]

I hope we get a blend of physics in the new game. I did miss being able to jump and shoot my bow. Even in the remaster you can jump while running. Skyrim feels very limiting now.

[dim reef]

You can jump and shoot in Starfield so i assume they'll have it in ES6 too

[midnight stag]

I also hope in es6 that we get a lot more of area to explore I could care less if DLC doesn’t come as long as more exploring to be done

[livid ingot]

I'm sure they will push the limit further in terms of explorable area. Skyrim was bigger than Oblivion which was bigger than Morrowind

If the next game is indeed in Hammerfell, there will be a bit of a challenge in depicting the Alik'r desert unless they increase the size of the province. Open, relatively flat areas have a tendency to seem small since they can't rely on the typical tricks that give off the illusion of being bigger than they actually are

I'd argue the Alik'r needs to be considerably bigger than Whiterun Hold in order to look/seem impressive. And if you look at a map of Tamriel right now they look comparable in size.

I think using sandstorms and dunes to help block distant views might help, but there is no real replacement for just making it bigger since there will be very little slowing player movement

[midnight stag]

I’m going to go a little off topic but I think Bethesda needs to stop live service dlc for online games and focus on its real money makers like elder scrolls rpg and fallout rpg

[midnight stag]

I mean die hard fans do the online thing but it makes you pay for almost everything you do in the game

Against regular rpg Bethesda games

Just type already

[rocky basin]

While Skyrim's core concept (not necessarily execution) is probably the best in the series, at least since DF, I think there are some advantages to SF's approach, i.e. basically merging perks and skills, and using standard XP, while still locking skill advancement based on use. One, it seems to make it easier to add lots of skills, including multiple skills governing some actions, and more fine grained learn-by-use for some things that were lumped together into one skill. Using XP means that characters can advance from things that couldn't be rewarded from pure skill use, like completing quests or discovering locations. It helps ensure that different characters with different skillsets can still advance in level at similar rates if they are completing the same tasks; otherwise, it could be heavily dependent on the tuning of the learn-by-use XP formulas. Depending on the conditions attached to unlocking skillperks, it could also move the emphasis from grinding easy tasks to the point of tedium, to accomplishing engaging tasks a smaller number of times, though they didn't really take advantage of that much for SF. Of course, it also has some drawbacks. Most significant is that once you master a skill, skill use doesn't directly help character advancement, and that hurts some skills worse than others -- skills that help get kill XP, or complete actions that reward XP, like lockpicking, are fine. Skills that are mostly about utility, like managing encumbrance, not so much -- you can run a thousand miles with your overloaded loot, but you aren't going to level up. Also, their rigid way of forcing skillperks into tiers and groups, while better than FO4's 7x10 paradigm, was too inflexible, but that's also more a question of execution. Plus, most of the advantage of SF's way relies on the assumption that vertical advancement with levels, and gating skillperks with skill points, is actually a good thing.

[rocky basin]

While you're probably right about skill degradation being a nonstarter, it could be useful as a way to put a cost on expending time on time-consuming tasks, sort of like the skill loss you get for sitting in prison. So, if you decide to research a new spell, and their spell creation system determines that it takes a few months of time on nonstop study and research to create it, then you get the spell, and maybe some improvement in related magical skills, but your other skills atrophy in that time. If you don't want that, I guess you pay an NPC for their time, and come back later when they finish it. It bugs me that time is almost completely meaningless in TES games (since Daggerfall, anyway), when in reality it's probably the most precious resource anyone has.

[midnight stag]

I don’t know if they’re planning to release es6 on Xbox series X and s or go up a generation later on which would put a hole in my pocket to get that new system before anyone says play pc I was never taught or wanted to type so pc is not the way to go for me but I’m just wondering if it’ll come out in 2026

[feral viper]

Honestly, it should be as big as Skyrim. Especially given the nature of that particular environment, far less detail work would be needed so they can really push the size. Then have the peripheral of it be where you focus the majority of the hand design work, resulting in a much bigger game.

That sort of scale would also incentivise players to use fast travel locations around the edge of the desert. You know, like Ports and Shipping lanes. How people ACTUALLY deal with deserts in reality.

Not taking a morning jog across them to get to their destination as the bird flies.

[feral viper]

You. I like you.

I disagree, at least in broad strokes, but your detail focus shows you've put a lot of thought into the topic, and the minutae. And that's my jam.

[eager remnant]

We're told that West Virginia is four times larger than Skyrim. So if TES6 is at least the size of West Virginia, which I think likely, then we could easily see a Skyrim-sized desert in TES6. And we would still have plenty of room for other biomes.

[livid ingot]

That would be extremely cool if it happens (it would also give plenty of room for ocean exploration if the predictions of making sailing a big thing come true)

[sharp tulip]

I have a bad feeling that ES6 is going to be like 80% ocean with barely any land in comparison. Like Wind Waker.
And it will end up being the smallest walkable area of all games.

[pulsar root]

Based on what

[sharp tulip]

The voices inside my head.

[nimble pond]

Too much of a drastic change. I don't see it happening in that amont.

[jade plover]

If sailing will be at the same level as flying in starfield then its better to not have it

[nimble pond]

I sincerely doubt they would shrink the landmass just because they have sailing and open water...

[slow loom]

Assassins Creed already did boat mechanics to death. I would raise an eyebrow if they did boats in ES but not sure it would be a major selling point. Cool but usually hard to make interesting.

[jade plover]

Starships were selling point of starfield even tho its trash

[slow loom]

Starfield was misleading advertising at it's finest. I think the ship building was a better selling point than the actual flying itself.

[jade plover]

Probably

Anyway they should make the most effort to creating interesting for exploration and full of content world

[slow loom]

I'm not against them trying new things and in fact i embrace it.

[dim reef]

The ships are good. The way they were utilized was bad. The couple of large scale ship battles Starfield has are really fun

[jade plover]

Ships are okay, same as in most space games. But flying them is boring, pointless and has too many loading screens

[nimble pond]

Starfield was an entirely NEW IP, always about exploring "the universe," it wasn't just about a spaceship, lol. Of course it's gonna have a ship, the platform was space itself, not a single planet. Just as TES, is focused on Tamriel. Even the separate game, ESO, is focused on Tamriel. Having a ship isn't going to change that or suddenly turn it into a game exploring the entire planet of Nirn on a ship. Get that nonsense out of your head. If anything it would extend the content even more surrounding the focus of whatever province(s) they do next!

[feral viper]

They were very up front about the way the game space was handled.

It's not Bethesda's fault players didn't pay attention to what they were told.

That said, I do agree with Dracula. If they approach sailing the same way as Starfield approached flying, you might as well not have it at all.

Because it was bad in Starfield, it would be even worse on the sea.

At best, you'd be recreating an inferior version of Pirates! Gold.

And when you're just recreating a 30 year old Sid Meier's game mechanic, but worse, you know you've got problems you're just not addressing.

That said, I WOULD buy a new version for Pirates! in this, the year 12025 HE.

[slow loom]

Maybe go watch the gameplay trailer again. I just did and it's very difficult to judge what the game is. Blaming the players for having an idea in their head with very little saying otherwise is a cop-out imo.

[feral viper]

I watched the trailer, and followed the press releases. Bethesda was VERY up front about not having seamless transition from planets or systems, and that planets would be specific areas of the available planets and not full sized worlds.

[slow loom]

Well that makes one person.

[feral viper]

One person actually paying attention while everyone else isn't, doesn't't mean there was false advertising.

This is a chronic problem with Bethesda's fanbase in particular. Has been since Morrowind.

[slow loom]

Not my job to pay attention to every detail. Most people had no idea what Starfield really was till after release and hours in.

[feral viper]

And it leads to every game being dubbed the 'Death of X' and 'An insult to fans' and 'False advertising'.

It's such a predictable reaction you can set your clocks by it

[pulsar root]

exaggeration, misleading and dramatic commentary is Social Media's greatest weapon. But we're getting off topic.

[feral viper]

Indeed.

Overall point is, how ships work in Starfield would have no real practical value in sailing ships in TES6.

The basic movement mechanics, fire controls, helm interaction and ship assembly have absolutely nothing in common with sailing..

[lapis zodiac]

You weren't taught how to use a keyboard?

[midnight stag]

I was but my hands were too big and I shake

[slow loom]

Well maybe don't tag me if you are responding to someone else about sailing.

[feral viper]

That is unfortunate. I'm sorry about your issues, and I will refrain from PC master racing in response to your console comments in the future.

[feral viper]

I corrected a false statement, then transitioned to a more relevant topic.

[lapis zodiac]

People complained about 76 not having a bunch of stuff that was explicitly stated would not be in the game at launch

[livid ingot]

Honestly I think being able to buy a boat, and to fast travel with it (make it a moveable home basically) could be enough for TES. Especially if they put in "travel" encounters, like shipwrecks, pirate attacks, sea serpent attacks, etc. Stuff that might randomly happen to break up the fast travel mechanic.
Don't get me wrong - a pilotable ship would be extremely cool. You could potentially even role play as a pirate with that sort of feature. But I don't think it's all that necessary.

[feral viper]

I recall the claim well after the fact, but no one has ever been able to cite examples.

[feral viper]

I actually used to be hard against the idea of ships. Largely because i had no examples of it being doable within the format.

Then we had games like Blackwake, and Sea of Thieves. So I'm more on board with it now

[lapis zodiac]

People making up things they expect to be in a game and then being mad that the game doesn't have those things is stupid unless the devs actually lie about it

[feral viper]

And 99% of the time, it's always the players making stuff up, not understanding what's being said, or taking rumours as fact.

Now, I COULD list examples of studios outright lying. CDPR, BioWare, Rockstar...

But I've never seen a single example of Bethesda doing it.

[slow loom]

Sure bud.

[lapis zodiac]

I think Starfield was their worst advertising job but they didn't lie

[feral viper]

I think it was their worst of a lot of jobs.

[lapis zodiac]

Well... True

[slow loom]

Yet it was all truthful

[feral viper]

But back on topic, I agree. I'm just not sure how much sailing would actually ADD in the grand scheme of things.

Unless Yokuda or Akavir is a significant part of the game

[slow loom]

Some people like the smell of their own farts a little too much.

[lapis zodiac]

Sailing without anything to do with it would be pointless travel time

[pulsar root]

I don't think its a good idea to do the whole sailing thing. At least not RIGHT after how the community feels about Starfield(Despite how ridiculous it is)

[dim reef]

That's not possible eitherway. What did people expect? A space game with no loading? Do people have Nasa super computers

Now. I will say this. They did a poor job of hiding the loading screens. Games usually hide loading with cutscenes or animations so it's not that apparent.

But people saying there should be no loading at all is just silly

[gloomy anchor]

elder scrolls everyone! We have a #starfield-chat for this discussion

[nimble pond]

Some people blame Bethesda, but their blame is misled. It's the game itself, they don't realize they don't like that type of game and therefore think it must be bad and Bethesda's fault. You can't make a game with 100s of planets expecting it to be filled to the brim in detail on all of it. You chop it down to just 2 planets and suddenly it's not about exploring the universe anymore as it was aimed to be. Furthermore, the setting itself.. this is taking place in a world in the not to distant future with a more realistic base to our own world. Expecting all those planets out there to not be barren in such a early setting in space travel is about as ridiculous as you can get. Taking everything I just said into equation and I boldly say no other studio could have done it any better. TES is High Fantasy and even Fallout is really not that realistic either. Between the three, Starfield is probably the least fantasy and Bethesda fans aren't used to that.

Ok sorry

[dim reef]

Back to ES, I don't assume ES6 will be set in a 1000 different places so i don't think there will be much loading in transitions now

In fact if you look at Fallout 76, it has a REALLY big map and it's entirely traversable with zero loading screens

[feral viper]

Well, not entirely. Interior zones are still behind loading screens. But that's been a standard for Bethesda since Arena.

Agreed. The map of Tamriel simply is not conducive to meaningful sea travel, at least from a game perspective.

It lacks any real archipelagos which would make sea travel interesting (there's a reason most sailing games are set in the Carribean).

It's technologically not advanced enough to make ship combat anything distinct from normal gameplay.

It's game space is not big enough to make ships and absolutely necessary (bear in mind, RUNNING from one side of Fallout 76 to the other is about 20 minutes. And it's their biggest actual functional map this millennium).

It's already loaded with storage options, making a ship just superfluous chaff (especially when we look at Starfield and the nonsense of Ships Holds, which doesn't bode well).

The only reason to have sailing in TES6, would be for their own sake. And that's never a good reason to do anything.

[dim reef]

That's unavoidable because interiors are loaded separately. But the overall map can be traversed seamlessly. I expect ES6 to be no different

[feral viper]

You COULD address the first two problems, by making the focus and generally unmapped area such as Yokuda or Akavir (both of which would come with their own problems) and changing the technology between games, however.

So it's doable. It's just going to take some serious work.

[nimble pond]

I think the main purpose of the ship mechanic would be to slowly introduce and incorporate new areas around Tamriel cause I often see gripe about it always being in Tamriel for all these years since Arena, which it's setting was all of Tamriel (in less detail in an earlier age of limited technology) and then, yet again with ESO. Say it's Hammerfall for example or HF & HR, you're probably not going to be sailing around randomly on the other side around Argonia. It would be more oriented around the lore of the game's provinces themselves and the water surrounding those borders. Secondary, it is consideration they may be looking to add more water-based detail and content to explore to add to the already well-detailed landmass. It has been a lil bland all these years, but has slowly gained more attention over the years.

[sacred osprey]

Damn

So next TES gonna have an Oblivion gate I can make a player home in right? Of course it will, yall love me right Bethesda?

I'll remember this moment when TES6 comes out in 2036 and doesn't have an Oblivion Gate playerhome

[nimble pond]

And all this talk about necessity. Frankly, there are alot of things (details) already in the game that aren't necessity that could be removed (and it's in constant debate between players what parts are good and which are bad or like how some people hate Oblivion while other people absolutely adore it). But then you have a bare bones game. And that's not the point. You want a liveable, breathable world, that continues to EXPAND and grow with each new title, new details. So it's shocking to hear complaint about something that could only add more content and detail to the game instead of pretending water just doesn't exist. Way too much Starfield trauma unreasonably altering people's opinions here.

[feral viper]

See, that's the thing.

I don't think it WOULD add more content or detail. Not with the way the world is currently laid out anyway. The landmass simply isn't conducive to it.

There are ways around that of course.

[nimble pond]

There have been hundreds of interesting ideas for water-based content/detail I've seen offered here, and elsewhere, from player's imaginations over all these years. You may not see the potential in something, but others do. And that's just the way it is, not everyone sees things in the same light.

[feral viper]

Well, of course not. Everyone's eyes are registering different photons..

[nimble pond]

Interestingly enough, you've sparked me with yet another idea. We've already seen the land being altered by things such as the volcano in Morrowind. Perhaps something may happen that splits in half or cracks the continent of Tamriel itself with new waterways running right thru it. Could be the result of what's happening to the towers, natural events, or anything else really
Furthermore, who says all the water has to be the same (or that the water itself can only be one way)? It is a high fantasy game afterall with a world that is full of magic.

[dim reef]

ES6 should have guns

Dual wield M16s

[feral viper]

Handgonne.

For sooth, yon knave. Feel the sting of my 10oz lead ball!

[dim reef]

Just as the founding daedras intended

[feral viper]

https://tenor.com/view/sharpe-historical-drink-sean-bean-harper-gif-15245849450212294385

[solid radish]

Hello fellow kinsmen

[nimble pond]

You've got balls of steel

[nimble pond]

Multi-shot anchor (3 separate links) harpoon.

[thorn stratus]

Army Single action Revolvers >>>

[rocky basin]

Agreed. Spaceships are high-tech enough that we can sort of imagine one person running the whole thing with some computer assistance. I don’t think you can really suspend disbelief in that way with large sailing ships. If a game is focused on sailing as a major mechanic, then it sort of has to be focused on crew, and not just in a “this person is hanging out on the ship, so you get a passive bonus” like SF. They need to actually engage with the ship in the expected way, managing rigging, hoisting anchors, cooking meals, firing cannons, singing sea shanties etc. To really staff it, you need swordsmen, navigators, artillery experts, cooks, medics, shipwrights, archaeologists, musicians, etc. (Maybe? All my nautical knowledge is from watching One Piece). If there is boarding combat, then they need to work together effectively as a team, and right now even follower AI is barely passable. I just don’t see it happening. On the other hand, if ships are just a combination floating house/fast travel mechanic like DF, well, it’s workable but not the kind of feature you want to overhype.

[rocky basin]

Maybe not guns, but I think it would be cool if alchemy got a boost with more types of items. Aside from bombs, it seems seems sort of plausible to have alchemical shot cartridges (composed of a powder and a payload?) loaded into a flintlock style contraption, for Cast On Target alchemy effects. Maybe even a revolver, if you want to get crazy.

[nimble pond]

Pc has controller support, so you don't have to play with a K&M if you don't want to.

[nimble pond]

It's not a bad idea, but I've seen similar ideas called redundant, because well, you can do the same thing with arrowheads and cross bolts, like they started doing in Dawnguard. If you really want to add guns, the key would be giving guns a distinction in their use compared to bows, and crossbows since they essentially do the same thing, firing a projectile.

[midnight stag]

I just like it simple pc games of what heard about with all games there a lot of problems players have with playing pc bugs,glitches,crashes, and all sorts of things and to fix them it’s just bothersome but then again I could get a console that would last about 10 years or 7 years and less problems without buying a bunch of equipment just to run one game then upgrade it again for another for about 200$ in upgrades just to play but like I said I shaking hands and big hands just don’t match for what you’re saying but yeah I know they have controllers for pc but I’m not that technical I’m autistic so I just don’t like changes

[nimble pond]

It will most likely work in the way Hearthfire started the whole "Sims builder" thing. Well, kicked it off anyway. Years ago, before much was known about Starfield, this Discord was heavily laced with people swearing that Bethesda would never introduce pilotable player vehicles to their games, even though it made absolutely no sense at all to not have one in a game about exploring "space," the universe, and then boom, it happened.

Also makes no sense to assume they would design a sailing ship in the same way as a spaceship unless you're going be doing alot of flying in it. Now that we got a barebones spaceship in the last game they released, it's plausible to see vehicle mechanics expanded on and better designed/detailed. Like in the way I brought up Hearthfire.. when they introduce new things, like the sim-building, they start small and it gradually grows into something more impressive. If sailing ships do get officially confirmed in TES, then I would wager it being all but certain that Fallout would get some sort of land vehicle, like a scrappy, makeshift-styled tank. It would certainly move slow enough by default, unless you were using a rechargeable boost on it, maybe even a jetpack. Dog can be in the machine gun seat ofc.
Anyway, yes larger ships would probably have a crew, while the smaller ones you can probably navigate by yourself.

So no, I don't think it would be like total sailing ship simulator, but probably not something bare bones either, more in the middle.
Certainly not something like the explorable map is all or only water. It was already "officially stated" many years ago that TES6 would once again take place on Tamriel. So there's no reason to freak out about it otherwise. If there are ships, it would probably be a side-thing incorporated into the main line at most.

[nimble pond]

It's quite the other way around..

But it sounds like you're hellbent on console regardless..
I give you other reasonable options, but there's not much else can do for you if you don't want to take them.

[midnight stag]

The closest thing to that I would get would be the next Xbox gen 2027 hybrid pc

[nimble pond]

For your interest, a console is like a mini-pc (so you're already halfway there), just a bit more limited in what you can do with it and you're getting more bang for your buck in a pc, plus consoles typically try to push you into ditching your old console every couple years for the new one, whereas a pc can last longer without needing a upgrade or much cheaper upgrade costs as opposed to a whole new console to play next-gen games.

[rocky basin]

I think it would have more in common with spells than bows/crossbows, at least the way I was envisioning it. The gun's just something you equip to be able to use it, the ammo would be indiviual heavy hitting charges of alchemical effects, created like you would a poison or potion. The powder component would affect the range, speed, and AoE, while the payload would determine the alchemy effects inflicted. I guess it would be similar to using a bow with poisoned arrows, except you just fire the poison directly (and get greater control over delivery characteristics), with no arrows or bolts needed. Plus, different feel, and (with a revolver) the ability to have multiple shots prepped before reloading.

[nimble pond]

That's another good point and comparison too that I forgot to include. Some of the spells are very projectile-like.

[primal olive]

I just want playable Maormer and more failing human empires

that and I want more snow elves and Falmer lore

[rocky basin]

If they do end up making sailing a major component, then I have to hope they would bring Maormer into it, at least as NPCs, or it would be a major missed opportunity.

[primal olive]

they best not have them as antagonistic as many of the younger fans see elves as bad for no good reason

[nimble pond]

And the sim-building mechanic introduced into Bethesda games over the years isn't even top of the line or necessary, there are certainly more sim-focused games out there, but nonetheless, that doesn't stop some people from enjoying this mechanic, among others, in Bethesda's games. One part of it, the building a family, I don't particularly hold much interest in, but there are a lot of Bethesda players out there who do, so I am open to it being included.

[nimble pond]

Cluster bomb airstrikes

[eager remnant]

Yes, we have folks who do almost nothing but build settlements in Fallout 4. It's their favorite part of the game and is what has kept them playing for years.

[primal olive]

me frfr I love building towns

I would like more diverse homes than just current zones culture tbf

[jade plover]

https://youtu.be/CJHKiOze6JE?si=rp9ZsaK_vaS7Ahnx

[feral viper]

Guilty.

Settlement building has become THE reason I go back to Fallout 4 at least once a year.

Similarly, Shipbuilding is all that keeps me going back to Starfield.

So, I am very much in favour of such in TES. I just think it needs to be properly integrated and thoughtful.

[sharp tulip]

I loved the settlement building ngl

It just needed more freedom. Too many things you couldn't scrap and clipped through builds. The 'spring cleaning' mod is a necessity.

[pulsar root]

I liked the settlement building to but mods really made it even better. That said I am actually gonna go with not wanting settlement building in TES6(Or beyond).

[nimble pond]

Whatever sim-management, I figure it can only grow and expand from what they've done with it previously. And what new features we experience with it.

[eager remnant]

I think building up one location (as we did with House Strongholds in Morrowind) combined with the creative freedom offered by improved settlement building mechanics, would be perfect. I would love to have the opportunity to design a castle and expand that into a small town. I can picture a quest chain eventually leading to becoming mayor (or choosing someone else to be mayor) and dealing with the consequences of political alliances with other towns/warlords/factions, ect. I picture all of this being completely optional, of course.

[nimble pond]

Sweetroll tax. Every citizen must bring me 1 sweetroll daily

[opaque pumice]

About to throw mine into the harbor now

[feral viper]

https://tenor.com/view/the-patriot-mel-gibson-jason-isaacs-colonel-tavington-tavington-gif-25510117

[nimble pond]

And here we have our first flogging victim 😄

[opaque pumice]

Just leave my face alone.

For my motha 😅

[unborn marten]

Alright wen

[dire horizon]

Wat

[pulsar root]

Yeah. me to. Wat

[inland loom]

It's a really, really sad meme, people think it's funny.

[dire horizon]

Oh. Right.

[timid drum]

I am unsure if I should check the link as I'm confused

[thorn vigil]

?

It’s fine, next time use @vast rain please

[nimble pond]

Have no fear citizen, the situation is under control.

https://tenor.com/bW7mE.gif

No finer law enforcement in all of Tamriel than the Whiterun guard!

[slow torrent]

thank you john whiterun

[glass marlin]

Counterargument:

[glass marlin]

Wes Johnson as the Imperial Guard is and always will be a treat.

[stark flower]

Quick friendly reminder to make sure you watch a GIF all the way through before posting it 😅

[feral viper]

As someone who was once issued a warning by the American Government (can't remember what agency)...

You'll never take me alive!

Really, both Empire AND Stormcloaks when you think about it.

[stark flower]

Let's not bring real life government into the conversation please.

[timid drum]

Just whatever you do, dont shoot the chicken 😂

[feral viper]

Fair. I was trying to be facetious, but I can see the problem. My bad.

[feral viper]

Anyway, back on to productive topics.

This is basically where I would go as well. Though I'd take that clearer, focus, combine it with the resource trade and supply mechanics from Starfield, to create a sort of actual community leader and management dynamic in the game. Limited to a single community in a single location (like a Raven Rock 2.0).

And then use a Light version of it for other factions, letting you actually engage with and control the Fighters Guild and so forth. Instead of just being a useless figurehead collecting a paycheque.

[steep niche]

Do we have any YouTube mod reviewers in the chat?

[eager remnant]

This is a vanilla Elder Scrolls chat. If you have questions or comments pertaining to mods feel free to post them in #skyrim-se-mods or #1067467528353370152

[rocky basin]

How would a Starfield-style trading system work with a single settlement limit? Assuming you mean the cargo link system. To be honest, I was a little disappointed in Starfield's trading system in general. I don't know why I'm trading with the offices of an interstellar trade corporation, on an advanced space colony, like I'm haggling with a medieval fantasy general store merchant. You're saying the main office can't fork over a few hundred thousand more credits if they see that the merch is worth it? Not that the economy ever makes that much sense in BGS games, but I was also disappointed at being unable to scratch my Privateer/Freespace itch and just arbitrage for cash. As far as settlements, I guess I always liked DQB more than Minecraft; that is, I like it more when NPC settler needs give me some actual purpose to my building beyond, "here's a nice warehouse for my excessive amounts of space loot", especially when they have enough personality that you attach some concern to them as people.

[feral viper]

Oh, Starfield's merchant system was absolutely terrible. They've used the same thing for the last 20 years, and it's never been good. At least they stopped calling it Barter.

But the settlement system and the setting up of supply routes and the trade network between them has more merit. It's still not great, of course, but it's at least useful. It's effectively a Lite verdion of the Supply Network systems in any factory game.

Take that, and apply it to 'unit' production of larger scale resources. Instead of, say, just having a mine generate 100 iron every hour, make it generate 4 Units of Iron. This gives your settlement the ability to sustain 4 things that require Iron.

You then use the trade linking system already in place with Starfield to develop that supply network.

[glass marlin]

Sorry. ^^;

[midnight stag]

Es6 do you think it’ll appear at gamescon because maybe being made in development in August 2023 after finishing up starfield it could happen be because them letting you know the progress they’ve made

[timid drum]

It'll come out whenever comes out, dont get your hopes so high and set expectations, just have patience

[midnight stag]

I’ve literally been waiting since I was in college for it to come out

[timid drum]

Congrats

[livid ingot]

Me too. Back in 2012... those were halcyon days...

[midnight stag]

It literally announced when I was at college 2018 and I was only 16

Are you new to this channel

[harsh crown]

Let's be nice

[midnight stag]

Did you change your username I don’t see your name a lot

[midnight stag]

But seriously do you think we’ll get at least a update from elder scrolls 6 at gamescom because they started to seriously work on it in August 2023 and no I’m not talking about a release it just seems too weird for them not to and bye the time August comes around that’ll be two years in full swing I’ll be fine with a update only

[feral viper]

https://tenor.com/view/hang-first-time-smiles-gif-14991372

[glass marlin]

It depends how much development time they're getting. If they're getting a good amount, then it might be too soon still.

[rocky basin]

I guess that's what was throwing me -- the SF system is mostly about linking player outposts together, other than for supply quests. If you are limited to one player settlement, then the trade network would be connecting with, I guess, the built-in NPC towns and cities? Or would it be connecting to some kind of remote resource locations that can be captured, like mines/sawmills/hunting camps?

[midnight stag]

I wonder how the merchant system will the last two games tes regular games were a little bit annoying how it worked just hope they reworked it so that we can sell more of items than previous games for gold

[thick heron]

Have they announced anytbing at all yet

[pulsar root]

No

[unborn marten]

Lol we iz neva gettin it

[jade plover]

Just forget about it, don't wait and play other games

[dim reef]

Highly unlikely I'd say. I doubt we'll get anything this year anymore.

At most we may get some interview from Todd where he just says "dw guys, work is underway"

[nimble pond]

Much doubt

[dim reef]

I wonder if they'll have dragons in ES6 as well. I don't suppose all of them were killed off by the dragonborn

[undone mist]

Anyone know why maintenance on ESO is so long today?

[feral viper]

They have to get the skooma cat out of the code

[stark flower]

That would be a question for ESO forums, but no, there is no official response on this at this time. When/if there is there will be an announcement on the Forums as well.

[feral viper]

In thinking about how trade works, it would basically be both.

Trade networks typically rely on establishing supply contracts with either producers, or suppliers.

So you'd either buy goods directly from, say, a Lumber mill, or from a warehouse in a major city that in turn byes from the lumber mill.

Even in the ancient world, there was a surprisingly robust accounting infrastructure to that handled tracking of expected supply and demand, and tried to predict and deal with shortfalls..

You could build a pretty robust trade system with minimal work that could allow for a lot of variability.

[jade plover]

I think its very unnecessary in action adventure game, why do you guys want to turn Elder scrolls into Stronghold

[glass marlin]

Let's be honest, we should ask the Souls people that very same question. lol

[feral viper]

I want at least an attempt at a living world.

TES, or any Bethesda game for that matter, is very much NOT a living world. It's an animatronic theme park.

Now, if Bethesda wants to stop claiming they make living worlds, and just double down on Action RPG, then I'll stop talking about systems that actually contribute to living worlds.

[pulsar root]

I wouldn't take advise from them personally.

[dim reef]

I think there are other ways to make a world feel living without essentially recreating the entire silk road trade that most people don't even want.

There's plenty of other smaller things Bethesda's games can improve that's more noticeable than a dynamic trade system

[feral viper]

A trade system has overflow that facilitates more directly meaningful interactions though.

Hmmm... Ok, what did I type that caused that...

Let's try this again, more carefully.

A basic trade system allows you to integrate and explore other aspects that directly contribute to a living world.

It allows you to have a mechanism for price fluctuations.

It allows you to have a mechanism to generate encounters that can drive those fluctuations.

It allows you to present players with new opportunities to interact with both those encounters, and the fluctuations.

It give you a tracking mechanism to allow NPCs to interact with those encounters and fluctuations.

And this is all before you even LOOK at its potential for more meaningful Settlement options.

Without these sorts of basic, grounding systems, you just get nonsense like Skyrim randomly having Companions members wandering the roads of Skyrim (not actually doing anything) or the wandering purposeless drones of Starfield's cities, or the abomination that was Radiant AI.

You need these sorts of foundational mechanics to actually give interactions in the world purpose. Otherwise you're just creating a superficial veneer of life that doesn't hold up to even the most cursory of examination.

Throwing NPCs around without them doing something isn't creating a living world.

And having them do something that has no effect on anything isn't creating a living world either.

So you need to first create the underlying systems for them to interact with, that create meaningful outcomes, before you can even bother putting work into the activities themselves

[inland shale]

Make Skooma great again

[little glen]

Would anyone know the best and cheapest spot to buy ESO Gold Road Collection for the official launcher?

[inland shale]

https://tenor.com/view/drink-haremistirio-gif-25931065

Where can one find some UNDILUTED skooma

[feral viper]

Ok there, Meowsenburg.

[gusty hinge]

why is patch 100gb now?

use to be 20

[feral viper]

Inflation.

[steel loom]

https://www.instagram.com/p/DKIovJ5P-Xn/?igsh=OHp4MmZmcHZiM2do

unofficial_elder_scrolls_pages

We're going to be part of a community group designing a character for The Elder Scrolls VI.

You may have heard us previously mention that there was an auction to create a character for The Elder Scrolls VI, and that while we were in the running for a while we were a bit short of the $85,300 dollar winning bid. You may have also seen our explana...

Likes

437

Instagram

https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/General:Loranna's_RP

[jade plover]

Rockstar has the most living worlds but they dont have anything like what you want to implement

[jade plover]

No one will even notice it, for most players interaction with such system will be like "ah so price changes sometimes, cool"
and thats all

So there is no point in making "a system" it can be just price randomizer that will randomly change prices between +-30% every ingame week

[jade plover]

Steam summer sales starts today

[jade plover]

Agree, but unfortunately bethesda don't care about it anymore. As far as i know a lot of npc's in starfield don't even move, so i doubt they will make complicated behaviour in tes vi

[dim reef]

Starfield was handicapped by being too over ambitious. ES6 should not suffer the same fate as i doubt it's scale would be anything like the former

[jade plover]

But if you buy it in steam you will launch it from steam, not from zenimax site, idk if its important for you.
I bought it in steam

[dim reef]

I'm still wondering if ES6 will have dragons. If not then what other big non human threat will they introduce? Starfield had terrormorphs, F76 had scorchbeasts (or scorched in general)

[slow loom]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MGpFEv1-mAo

[feral viper]

Oh man, I hard disagree. Rockstars worlds are just as lifeless as Bethesda's.

Probably even worse.

[jade plover]

If rdr2 is lifeless, then there is no living worlds in games

[feral viper]

There aren't in RPGs, no.

Literally no RPG has a living world

[dim reef]

No game has a living world, they're just meant to appear alive. Having dynamic systems doesn't necessarily make a world feel living. There's plenty of other details at play

[feral viper]

The closest you get are sim and management games like Rimworld and Dwarf Fortress, though that's far too much for a game like TES.

[dim reef]

None of them are close to a living world either. They just like most other games try to imitate a live world. Different games do it differently and they're all unique that way

[little glen]

I had it on Zenimax but my misses has got me the Premium 2025 content collection as a wedding anniversary present on steam. She didn't realise there was a difference so just going to switch over to Steam and link the Zeni account

[proven linden]

Any news on the performance update?

[feral viper]

Oh absolutely not. But they're orders of magnitudes closer than anything Bethesda, or Rockstar, have done..

Or BioWare, or Obsidian, or Ubisoft, or anyone else.

[dim reef]

Do they?
I find a Bethesda or Rockstar game much more alive than Rimworld

[feral viper]

There is nothing living about Bethesda, or Rockstar Games.

Theyre just crowded.

[timid drum]

In theory it'd just come down to perspective, like one may see a game more alive then others depending on preference and all that :p

[dim reef]

And that's the thing.
What you think is important to make a world feel living, other's don't.
I don't.
It's just different strokes as to who finds what more alive

I don't need a dynamic trade system to make a world feel alive. I want more npc interactions, radiant dialogues and reactions to story events, day and night routines.
That's what i think is important to make a world feel alive

So it really comes down to preference. Bethesda obviously can't do all of these things, so they try to do what most consider important.
(Not that they always succeed but they try)

[jade plover]

What is living in dwarf fortress? Its just randomly moving animated sprites

[jade plover]

True

[jade plover]

Based

[feral viper]

Yes, and those interactions are facilitated BY these sorts of baseline systems.

[feral viper]

That couldn't be further from the truth. I can give you but a single story from my 2000+ hours in the game.

[glad cypress]

This feels like a "I like books more/I like movies more" sort of difference, as one is able to inspire the imagination better, but visually doesn't have much "life" to offer. I like Rimworld for the stories and the complexity of interactions, but I also like Skyrim and Oblivion because I'm actually in the world seeing people do things

I believe the former is far easier to achieve, and that's why the latter is seen as less important by some, but I honestly feel like a visually reactive 3D world has the greatest potential. A movie that you can play, giving you the options to do many things people to were limited to just picturing in their minds. That's a far way off just yet, but it has a higher potential for greatness

[feral viper]

That's probably more accurate.

Visuals mean nothing to me. I've been gaming since the days of Zork. Books have, and always will be, superior to film in basically every way. And game will surpass film eventually, of they can get decent writers (my sweet vehk, writing in video games is bad).

But a chronic issue with even attempting to create a facsimile of life in video games is the utter lack of integration into the world it's self.

Radiant AI and Radiant Quests are interesting ideas, with abysmal execution.

Why? Because the games have no way to actually integrate them I to the world. They fundamentally lack the background systems to do so.

This results in them being superficial, randomised interactions that are just thrown in as a detached interaction for the player with no actual grounding.

There are 2 ways to address this issue.

You either put the time into actually building out those baseline systems that facilitate interaction.

Or you deliberately write and program every interaction at the end, layering superficial window dressing on superficial window dressing.

And the latter has been Bethesda's approach for a long time. And it shows.

A prime example being EM weapons in Starfield.

Whether or not players even notice these sorts of foundational systems is irrelevant.

What matters is whether or not the interactions they rely on are engaging, and whether or not they facilitate integration in the world.

And you will always end up investing more time doing that from the finish line and working backwards, than you will from just building the system from the start.

Now you've got me thinking about brave Ibram, the valiant Human Spearman and one of my favourite personal stories in Dwarf Fortress...

[jade plover]

There are a lot of games with writing much better than in most movies

[feral viper]

Most movies are schlock. The sheer overwhelming mass of low budget films easily skews that statistic, and even if you eliminate them (since the same failing applies to games) most films are spectacle over writing.

The best written games are still far behind decently written movies though.

Video game writing is just universally pretty poor. There are some outstanding examples, but on the whole, mediocrity is the bar that people struggle to reach for.

But when you've got people praising things like The Last of Us, and the Dark Brotherhood, you can't really blame the writers for setting their sights where they do.

Now, will Video games have a stronger bell curve by the time they've had as long a run as cinema? Maybe.

But as of right now, they're behind.

[dim reef]

Nope. Npc reactions to story events isn't facilitated by dynamic trade systems.
It's been there since time immemorial and has gotten better with each game.

They're simply scripted reactions that trigger at different stages.

[dim reef]

That is plain untrue. Video game writing has come a long way and can easily compete with some of the best written movies out there

[feral viper]

Nah, and it's not even close.

Well, except for a few outliers.

[dim reef]

Nope. Gotta plain disagree there.
There's plenty of games with amazing writing rivaling the best movies out there

[feral viper]

And I also disagree. Aside from a few outliers (such as Legacy of Kain) the best written video games only really hit Matrix levels.

And the Matrix was just repainting Descartes' and hiding him behind the fear of AI that's persisted since Terminator.

[feral viper]

More to the relevant point, I also disagree with this.

More and more, I think we see that this sort of approach is insufficient.

Skyrim, Fallout 4 and Starfield are glaring examples of it, but this issue also persists in other open world games. The Just Cause series, the Farcry series, Kingdom Come, etc.

When we look at, for instance, Radiant AI... Well, it's basically worthless. It's just generated encounters to distract your kitten brain for 10 minutes and give you something to kill.

It has zero integration into the world, zero interaction with other dynamics, and zero relevance to anything outside its own existence.

[dim reef]

I personally don't. Fallout 4 and Skyrim feel plenty alive to me. They can be expanded even more but what they have never felt bad to me.

Starfield is the outlier and that's because of the way it's cities are designed.

[feral viper]

And this is indicative of the bigger issue.

Relying on top-down scripted interactions is effectively just creating self contained bubbles of interactions that occasionally butt up against eachother.

What we need, is a system built from the ground up that isn't just bubbles, but is venn diagrams that bleed into eachother and facilitate interaction.

And we're not getting that.

[dim reef]

But even Starfield does some things right that makes the world feel alive.
Most notably, more companion banter.
4 introduced this and now we have plenty of conversations between them and also FAR more quest/story reactions.

That's what i consider make a world feel alive. Not trade systems

[feral viper]

You're focusing on the trade systems. That's not the point.

The point is the natural interactions that arise out of it. It's a foundation you build off of, like any system..

[dim reef]

I don't. All the examples you listed i don't consider any of them as a foundational system

Which is fine. The point I'm making is different people like different things.
What you see as alive, i don't.

[feral viper]

So, having a systemic process that integrates mission generation into the world, has indicators and cues, and actually has effects that inform player decisions and create new opportunities, has no value to you?

I mean, hell, the literal animatronics at the game zone I used to go to as a kid could talk to eachother. No one would actually call them even a parody of life.

The best world integration we get in these games is 'Do it because I said so'.

That's the depth of things.

Why am I killing this giant? Because the quest giver said so. Why is X item cheaper at Y location? Because it's scripted that way. Why is Farkas wandering this random road? Because he is.

[dim reef]

And that's perfectly fine.

What i am saying is what you see as in-depth. Not everyone does.
and Bethesda obviously can't please everyone so they simply do what most seem to care about

Look at some of the most successful rpgs in the market.
How many have the systems you mentioned.
People, especially the market Bethesda appeals to just doesn't seem to be interested in what you're asking for

[feral viper]

Well, a lot of people also think New Vegas is well written, so sorry if I dismiss their opinions..

[feral viper]

Look at the most successful RPG in recent memory.

Baldur's Gate 3. It's a CLOSED World, narrative game, that was succesfull specifically because it went into depth ON foundational systems.

And that allowed players to problem solve, engage in creative ways, and explore complex options.

The RPG genre as a whole has stagnated over the last 20 years, and honestly offers nothing new compared to the mid 2000s.

And game after game, the exact same complaints come up, exactly because of that problem.

Worlds are too static. Enemies are too much of a HP sponge. Activities are too repetitive. Progression is too streamlined. Etc.

[dim reef]

Also look at Cyberpunk and Kingdom Come Deliverance 2 which were the opposite of closed worlds.

Their foundational systems are pretty identical to Bethesda's. They're simply well executed.

[feral viper]

Cyberpunk was heavily panned on release, and Kingdome Come is still niche.

[dim reef]

At release.
Not anymore.

Also KCD2 sold 2 million copies in 2 weeks. It's very much not "niche"

[feral viper]

And both are thoroughly mediocre anyway.

Which is part of a bigger, systemic issue.

[dim reef]

If you're going to dismiss others for not agreeing to what you say.
They probably won't consider your opinions either

[feral viper]

I, personally, don't give a rats ass what people like.

Why? Because the arch of history is a long line of people opposing change because they like something, only to then turn around and like the new thing better once they're exposed to it.

TES it's self is a living microcosm of this. Every single release has been heralded as the death of TES, because it's different from the previous. Only to become beloved after, and become the new standard on which the subsequent game is condemned.

[dim reef]

Well. You do you then

[feral viper]

All I care about is progress. Because what people like now, is the antiquated relic of tomorrow.

Bethesda wants to make living worlds? They want to create emergent opportunities and interactions? They need to stop relying on approaches that simply, demonstrably are not up to that task.

They need to do what they've done in the past. Innovate. Whether people want it or not.

Though, actually polishing that innovation up a bit instead of just saying 'It JUST works' and shoving it out the door, would help too.

You want living worlds? You need to build systems which allow for them. Which allow for NPCs to interact in more dynamic ways. Which allow for a wider range of predictable and novel activities. Which allow for unexpected outcomes and problem solving.

Scripting is just saying the man behind the curtain is the best you're going to get.

And that's already running face first into the wall of diminishing returns.

Hell, a basic economic model would have FIXED Oblivion's Radiant AI.

It wouldn't have fixed the choices in directing, but that was a whole decision in its own right.

[slow loom]

Gaming is such a subjective hobby. If we say a world feels alive that doesn't literally mean it is. It has enough mechanics and details to make it feel immersive in the eyes of the viewer. To me immersion makes the world feel alive but that's not a living world. We use to look at 8-bit games and say this is the best thing ever and it looks so realistic. Now we look at space age graphics in comparison to 8-bit and say it's still not good enough. It seems like if you want true realism you'll have to wait for a proper brain link or VR to improve dramatically. If you want life sim then sim games are going to be the closest to living for you. There is no one thing that all gamers will say that this is the most living world because we are all different and have different tastes. I find some space games realistic, not because they are but because they simulate that experience well enough for me. In the future all of this will look like 8-bit and the cycle starts again.

[feral viper]

Well, immersion is subjective too.

Bethesda games are NOT immersive to me.

In fact, again, no RPG is, ever had been, or likely ever will be.

You know what is immersive? Civilisation.

[slow loom]

Well i'll start by saying that is your opinion. I find Kingdom Come Deliverance to be one of the most realitic and immersive takes on a medieval world. So many details you wouldn't think of but they seem so believable and obvious once observed. I was never a fan of Civilsation games.

[feral viper]

And that's part of the whole difference of approach.

The deeper into abstraction of experience you get, the less immersive something becomes for me.

Like, slap a health bar on a game, and I instantly detach from it. Because there not how I experience sensation or pain.

4x games, at least, are numbers and administration and maps. The nature of what they are engaging with is ALREADY that level of abstraction in the real world. So there's less of a cognitive disconnect from the start.

And that's sort of the problem.

In the years of discussing these topics, I've realised that there are as many definitions of Immersion, as there are people to ask.

Because of this, something like Immersion isn't something you can really design for. Because it's different for everyone.

[slow loom]

Well it's part of the reason why i like games with minimal huds. I also like immersive games such as Stalker. Sound plays a big part in immersion for me.

[feral viper]

I find them experientially limited and lacking in the range of sensory feedback you need for good decision making.

So I'm the total opposite. Which only reinforces the point.

[slow loom]

Yes we are all different.

I think one point remains the same between many gamers and that is that we don't want games to feel like a job. Many realistic mechanics end up making games feel like a job.

[feral viper]

Absolutely. Which is why realism isn't necessarily the goal.

But because of the inherent subjectivity of things like Immersion, I long since abandoned trying to design for a particular 'experience'.

Instead, identify problems and shortcomings. Workshop solutions to them. Then consider whether or not those solutions have their own problems or shortcomings.

[slow loom]

KCD has a funny realistic mechanic if you start the game on hardcore. You have a 90% chance of dying the first time you start the game up. Utterly pointless because at the end of the day it just wastes your time but it does set up the time period pretty well.

There are so many mechanics that sound great on paper but are terrible for players to actually use. I see many suggestions and they all go along the lines of wanting a completely different game to what ES is.

[steep niche]

If there are any YouTube Mod Reviewers on here, please DM me <3. Keep up the good work all!

[feral viper]

Well, ultimately, TES is a sandbox Action RPG.

It's not a deep narrative RPG. Its not a philosophical RPG. It's not a thriller or a tactical RPG, or anything else.

[pulsar root]

KCD gameplay doesn't hit me. It just annoys me and well I miss out on whatever story it has. Its not Dark Souls exactly but its still frustrating.(To clarify I was just contributing after SHizzkizz mentioned KCD)

[feral viper]

And a Sandbox, ultimately, relies on emergent experiences and making your own activities.

[feral viper]

That's what Video Game movies are for.

I even watched RDR2, despite my fiery contempt for RAGE. Not liking the gameplay doesn't necessarily mean you have to miss out on the story.

Didn't enjoy it either, but I still did it.

[eager remnant]

As I told you the last time you asked this question, you will have better succes if you ask in one of the mod chats. Since you've neglected to specify which game you are interested in, here is a selection of links. Please use them. #modding-general #skyrim-se-mods #1067467528353370152 #fallout-4-mods #1067505929534320700 #classic-mods

[rocky basin]

One area where I hope they make progress in the next game is in improving the fast travel system, which seems to have gone backwards in every game. I think they would be best off building some of the details and sim elements of TES2 into a base that is more like the map travel system used in the Interplay Fallouts.

That’s particularly true if they make use of Starfield’s massive theoretical landmass (where actual playable portions of the map are just randomly generated as needed). The fact is, in any reasonably sized world, there are probably decently large areas that are filled with very little of interest. Map travel gives you a way to pass those areas without too much player time. If you want to drop down to travel on foot, you can, but you probably won’t find much other than a few farms, some reagents, maybe some dangerous wildlife or a ghost in the town cemetery. And that’s fine, no one made you explore Nowheresville, so if you’re bored it’s on you.

Ideally travel would be a fully-fledged gameplay system with one or more skills (for surviving climate and disease, finding food and clean water, locating POIs, avoiding enemy encounters) and different types of equipment and upgrades (mounts, carts, caravans and wagons, boats and ships, tag along with groups like merchant caravans or parties of pilgrims, etc), and strategic choices (option to only travel in day or at night, camp outdoors or find town lodgings, travel recklessly or cautiously, etc.)

[inland shale]

Strawberry torte in New Sheoth

🍰

[stuck minnow]

Elder scrolls 6 needs graphics higher then oblivion remastered yo

Night everyone peace

[jade plover]

Idk, i agree with kcd, but cyberpunk has nothing in common with bethesda games, its closer to gta or assassins creed

[jade plover]

I feel like you came from year 2100 where all the games have realistic simulative worlds and all npc's are full functional AI's making new story on every playthrough. So you get in the past somehow and hate the old games

[dim reef]

It's core quest design works just like any other rpg.
Talk to people.
Pass speech checks.
Make a choice that either leads to combat or diplomacy

[jade plover]

So you want a large map filled with nothing and a new fast travel system to skip it? Whats the point of this?

What you described sounds like minecraft but with mods on POIs and encounters

Or the Long dark but with randomised world

And this is really far from what elder scrolls is

[jade plover]

Well, its not an rpg core is just how most open world games work in general. I mean the world desing in kcd is similar to bethesda but cyberpunk is not

But it actually has a lot of similarities

Feels different though

[dim reef]

No. It doesn't. Gta for example doesn't work like that whatsoever, it's very linear and has no stats or skills to play around with. You have to do missions exactly how the game wants