🎮〕illuvium-zero

[mortal merlin]

The 3M missing is the staking yield that some can be minted as ILV

[sweet lintel]

If you claim sILV instead of ILV, the amount of ILV is removed from circulation?

[mortal merlin]

It's never entering circulation

It doesnt exist yet

[muted moth]

It just prevents it from being minted

[sweet lintel]

Effectively the same as being burned imo. We're talking about the same thing :)

[mortal merlin]

Technically very different

That's why we insist on it

hahahah

But same outcome

[ivory vine]

In regards to the impact on the maximum possible ILV amount, it is the same yes. Technically though, very different 😄

[muted moth]

Burning is taking something that exists and destroying it. In this case the ILV never existed in the first place

[full talon]

no way. That would just be too insane. Max is 10mil I think

[whole lily]

Yo guys how much is the price for the lands on release??

[muted moth]

Not a set price, sale will be done by dutch auction. We should know starting prices a few days before the sale

[sweet lintel]

No idea, dutch auction so whatever whales are willing to pay :S

[whole lily]

The sale is in November right??

[muted moth]

As far as we know, yes

[whole lily]

You guys think 1.5 eth will be enough for the t-1 land??

[muted moth]

I think so, as of the current ETH price, but you never know how things could go so don't go in expecting to get land

[wind briar]

I'd wait for more details, but most probably yes.

[whole lily]

All right thanks guys👍

[earnest pulsar]

Just t1 land on first sale isn’t it?

[astral wasp]

Can pools buy land? For the poor people...

[muted moth]

No. Will be a mixture of all tiers. Though we do not know yet how many of each tier

[whole lily]

We will need to buy ilv in order to make purchases in game right??

[muted moth]

No. ILV is purely a governance token and has no in-game use

[earnest pulsar]

Interesting!!!

[whole lily]

Ahh I see

[muted moth]

All in-game purchases will be done with either ETH or sILV

[whole lily]

Can’t wait to play this game

[earnest pulsar]

Will u make much income from t1 land?

[muted moth]

Not known yet. Will also depend on how smart you play the game

[whole lily]

I guess you could also flip the land at significant profit once more ppl enter in this space

[earnest pulsar]

Thanks

[muted moth]

Yea that's what I am going to try and do. Get a couple T1's for myself, and a couple more to sell after all the lands are sold for a lot more than I paid for it. We will see how it shakes out tho

[whole lily]

Hopefully tier 1 is affordable

[muted moth]

We will see. I hope so too

[whole lily]

There are gonna be tons of whales on this one

[sweet lintel]

Raise your voice against land rentals to keep t1 affordable ✊

[muted moth]

LOL. I don't care what people do with their land. All I know is mine will never be rented out. No fun for me!

[sweet lintel]

If it's a legit investment option to buy out all the t1s and rent them out, someone will do it

[muted moth]

true. But I don't think they will have made a platform for rental until full game release, so I think it won't be an issue for this sale but more for sales down the line once it is confirmed how they plan to deal with it. I don't think whales will try and go for that strat unless they know something will be in place to make it easy for them. Then again, I am not a whale so I don't know how they think

[tawdry thunder]

Lol, just dig deep and buy one or play the free version. The money you can earn from owning land will have nothing on revdis.

[sweet lintel]

I've already dug deep for ILV money 😅 hoping what I can scrape from pay is enough for a t1

[eager holly]

What is revdis?

[muted moth]

Me too lol. I just am hoping I don't FOMO and buy at a price that is way too high and I could've gone lower. But then again, I don't wanna miss out on land. It's going to be stressful af

[little moon]

Lol has Kieran been drinking a lot lately? His twitter has been a real mess.

[sweet lintel]

I'd be very disappointed if majority of the lands gets bought by whales to rented out instead of passionate ILV followers

[muted moth]

Yea he seems to follow a "type first, think later" mindset when it comes to twitter

[full talon]

You need to get a better mic:)

[muted moth]

For real. But I guess if whales try and grab all of them, at least we will know early since they will likely buy at a high price to price us out

[tawdry thunder]

Revenue distribution, check it out on vetemor’s utube

[misty orbit]

What did he post recently?

[sweet lintel]

https://tenor.com/view/spider-man-tom-holland-yoink-gif-11346283

Waiting for land prices to drop and whales be like

[muted moth]

Alright everyone. Grab your harpoon guns, time to go whaling😠

[full talon]

i was also thinking to wait for the next crypto winter to buy. Waiting for after the first hype is over

[little moon]

Talking about adding scholarships into Illuvium while most of the team has been fairly vocal about being against it. It feels like he is more interested in shitting on axie than promoting Illuvium sometimes.

[eager holly]

Ty Ill do it

[little moon]

I assume he was talking about land rentals but its not a good look to throw out info without context for the purpose of dunking on another project. Its a pretty sensitive subject within the community so I dont see any benefit of creating confustion.

[mortal merlin]

I agree

[little moon]

Is council able to get some context on what he is talking about? Im hesitant to keep converting my portfolio over to ILV if he was talking about main game scholarships.

[misty orbit]

I think Aaron confirmed it was land rentals by the looks of it

[sweet lintel]

Did you check the other comment? It's land renting, not monster scholarships. I'm not saying it's any better (imo much worse)

[little moon]

"Land Rentals and such" not "Just land rentals"

[muted moth]

Hopefully that is all it is. not sure what the "and such" is referring to in his reply

[true bluff]

Good evening, morning or afternoon. I wanted to ask if you cannot have an account for either illuvium zero and the main game at the same time? I wanted to clarify that since I heard in a interview from Aaron that we would have to pick one of them and that’s it

[sweet lintel]

I understand that having it built in will generate revenue and Axie scholarships started as a 3rd party (which is the worst case, no revdis and unreliable) but having a renting system reduces the amount of lands sold 2nd hand. Why would you eber sell if you can make money by renting

[muted moth]

Not that I am aware of. Should be able to play both

[mortal merlin]

@amber atlas Any information on the scholarship or rental thing?

[ivory vine]

You might not have the time to play both intensively but no one is stopping you from trying 🙂

[sweet lintel]

Ez, ILz on 2nd monitor. I always play some idle game while playing something else

[whole lily]

So guys how will we earn money in the game. Will have to buy our own characters or what??

[crystal temple]

You really need to do some research. There is a faq and lots of reading to do. No one can spoon feed you this in a post. There are multiple ways to make some money.

[true bluff]

!earn

[dry forge]

🚫 Calito, you can't use that.

[true bluff]

😂

[cosmic aspen]

#❓〕faq

[fervent pine]

Are ppl against the ability to rent land? if this isnt available won't the paid game have a cap of 100k players (or however many parcels there are)?

[potent dock]

Yeah, generally people are against supporting rentals on the development side. Of course, your NFT is your own and you can do whatever you want with it.

At minimum, I think it's generally accepted that we should wait until land and the game are playable before determining if there's even a desire to have any sort of rentals. It doesn't make much sense to pre-emptively develop a rental system if there's a chance it won't be needed.

[potent dock]

Check the pinned messages, there's lots of info in there. The 2 things you can get that are sellable are: Fuel (3 different types, used for different things in IL:Z and the main game), and Blueprints (Which allow you to make skins).

[fervent pine]

That makes sense. I'm considering buying land as an investment but I'm not sure I'll have time to game, although I want to.

[potent dock]

If you're light on time, higher tier land can make a lot more sense, as it takes less time per day to interact with, as opposed to having like 5 or 10 T1 plots.

[little moon]

There will always be a cap of 100k P2E players, renting or no. Renting would just allow whales to buy up the land and charge people to play.

Which for land makes more sense to me since it at least directly profits the dao. It just makes it clear that owning land in Illuvium zero is for large investors only.

[fervent pine]

If ppl are paying to play the game and potentially make money I'd consider them players in the paid game.. Expands the number of ppl in the ecosystem a lot potentially

[little moon]

But then the owner isnt playing. So the number of players is still 100K

You just added an investor as a middle man to suck up some of the profit.

[fervent pine]

If u can only rent to 1 person at a time, but I don't see why that needs to be the case

[little moon]

Im starting to think you might need to read up on what the land is a bit more before continuing this conversation.

[potent dock]

Having a rental system in place removes a barrier for people thinking about buying LOTS of low tier lands. If you can play like, 5 or 10 or 100 T1 lands in a day (100 would likely require automation), it's a barrier for whales sniping all the land and not interacting with it. Yes, you could automate things, or you could hire someone to play your land (or multiple someones), but that's a barrier. It probably means that we'll see a wider distribution of land, as at least some people will not be willing to jump through hoops to get full value out of many many low tier lands.

[fervent pine]

Anything in particular? I've done a bit of research already

[potent dock]

And yeah, I don't think land works quite the way you're thinking ji, IL:Z is a base building game, so renting a plot of land for a day or two or something is kind of weird. You'd be in someone's existing plot, potentially building long term structures and collecting resources. It seems like it would be a weird vibe, it does not have 1:1 coorelation with renting like, an Axie team or something.

[little moon]

Well if you could rent to multiple people at once then land is essentailly infinite. Which is not the case.

[fervent pine]

But when I'm looking at a game, 100k Max players in an ecosystem sounds low and i didn't read any obvious barriers to multiple rentals. Info is a bit scarce imo

[potent dock]

It's still 100k max with a rental system, unless land gets subdivided or something.

**100k max concurrent, I should say.

[fervent pine]

Got it u couldn't give someone a license to hunt scans or something, and someone else a license to mine? Etc....

[fair temple]

It is like Clash of clans. You give your account to someone. Whrther they build or fight or collect resources, it is all part of managing the account. It can only be on a single wallet. So you cant give multiple people access to the land.

[fervent pine]

👍

[little moon]

I think they estimated it would only take 30 mins- an hour to manage a plot of land so one person could utilize multiple lands.

[potent dock]

Could be an idea for the future, but within the current design, you'd be using their Fuel structures, or their scanning structures. There wouldn't be much element of choice going on, unless they were willing to let you spend their resources to redesign the building plans on the plot.

[fervent pine]

I saw some podcast about stadiums and selling seats and stuff, so I figured it would be more of an open world

[potent dock]

Yeah, for the very few T5 plots, they will have arenas, which are a whole thing that won't affect most people's earnings.

[sweet lintel]

T5 lands gonna have arenas in them that host pvp matches and tournaments amd stuff. The owner can then sell add space and get a part of streming revenue

[fervent pine]

Ya I just figured there would be something in the middle of filling a stadium and being limited to 1 wallet on the other lands

Still sounds super cool. A lot of projects are killing it with a lot less than 100k items/users

[fair temple]

!I think! the stadiums will have their own seperate map in the main game. But they will just be a 8-8 orso square in the minigame with some toggling options. Like:
Stadium 4:
Box 1 Name
Box 2 " "
Box 3 etc.

They would have to form contracts outside of the game (maybe?) which is why whales with good connections will want the arenas and others will have no use for then.

[faint rapids]

Where do you get informations about ilv lands ?

[sweet lintel]

I'm just praying for no land renting for the land sales to give the smaller wallets a chance against whales buying property for renting

[potent dock]

Lots of information in the pinned messages in this channel. If you wanna dig deep, search for posts by "JohnnyA | Illuvium" and read em.

[fair temple]

Kieran and Aaron always said that scholarships were fine. I dont think you are in luck my friend. Definitly whales will be getting tons of land and will exert massive influence on the fuel prices later on for max profits :D (while the DAO tries to keep it somewhat balanced)

[fervent pine]

What are scholarships exactly?

[sweet lintel]

The DAO has been vocally against scholarshipsthough, specifically for monsters but it's the same reasoning for land

[faint rapids]

And no idea about land price ? I heard 30k sometjing like that. That's big for a game not released yzt

[fair temple]

The fact that one person makes 100 clash of clans accounts, and then he pays people to play on his accounts and forms a competitive guild with his subordinates.

Similar to this: one buys 100 pieces of land, pays 5% to his employees to play the game and make himself 100K per month. those employees are scholars.

[sweet lintel]

Depends on the land tier, tons of speculation ranging from 1k t1 to multi million t5

I think t1 and t2 price is gonna be dependent on ILV price because people buying sILV for landsale

[fair temple]

Lets all get a consensus to buy T2s at 5sILV max lol

[sweet lintel]

But then there'd be someone sniping at 5,1

[feral hedge]

I'm guessing T1 will be 5 sILV. T2 more like 20.

[fair temple]

Yeah they are idle dreams... but a man can hope lol there are only 11K who have staked according to Xastors pinned message in Stakes :P #socialism buy 2 lands each max. Haha

[feral hedge]

Coordination of that scale would enter history books heh.

[fair temple]

So will the first crypto AAA game

[sweet lintel]

How would you keep track of limit? Wallets? Pretty easy to make 500 wallets for 1000 lands

[potent dock]

Dang, I can sit on my hands at those prices lol

I'm super excited to see what land ends up going for.

[fair temple]

I know. Just silly thoughts really. Excuse me 🙂

[feral hedge]

Some calculated guesstimates tell me T1 is in the 3-6 sILV range. Probably on the upper end due to hype. But should get more accurate value estimates with the FAQ doc they are working on.

[faint rapids]

Multi million for t5

[fervent pine]

I'm guessing they limit the 1st release to 10k plots or something. Demand will be super high.

[sweet lintel]

It's ok, just playing devils advocate. I would want it limited, that's why I've thought of the problems with it xD

[potent dock]

It's 20k plots for the first sale.

[fair temple]

I hope people will just sleep on this sale. Or that ILV rises like mad so we have less competition when paying with sILV. Man such hype for land. Stop hyping it up guys shush! Haha

[potent dock]

People better get to claiming sILV to meet your projections haha, even if every plot sold for 6 sILV average, we'd need 120k to have a pure sILV sale, and that's disregarding higher tiers going for more than 6 sILV.

35k sILV in circ right now.

[sweet lintel]

Quick price predictions for ILV at time of landsales

[feral hedge]

They needn't be bought in sILV, it's just convenient to value land this way, cause it should be tied to ILV value.

[potent dock]

I'm kinda hoping that if the land sale goes crazy, there's not enough circulating sILV to meet demand, and people are forced to spend ETH 😛

[sweet lintel]

I feel like people are gonna spend sILV more freely for the landsales because it's a "sale token" instead of "real money"

[sweet lintel]

And tens of thousands more in unclaimed rewards

[unreal yew]

The more sILV is spent in the landsale, the more ETH we will have in future revdis once the sILV is finished :) is win win in any case

[fair temple]

Im somewhat expecting to have 80M$ total value this sale. Would not even take much to get there tbh. Since only 35K sILV in circulation now value being 20M, we would have 60M Eth going in :) (20K land -> avaraging 4K$ per land only) idk how much people can still claim though :o
With qq's estimates i think we would hit 120M$ orso😲

And with 1Eth per T1 id say 200M would not be a long shot lol would be crazy though.

[sweet lintel]

The worst case scenario is whales hoarding the t1s and t2s allowing higher tier costs to drop to lvls that are still unreachable by small wallets but much less impactful for revdis

[feral hedge]

It's essentially a staking minigame. And since 10% is the target for fuel revenue, that can give us the upper bound on a value of a fuel site compared to staking ILV. Since there will be more revenue sources for staking, and since the minigame requires a time investment, actual value is much lower than that. Probably less than half as much. So, not counting T5s, total sale value for 20k plots should not exceed 0.2 (20% plots) * 0.05 (5% of revdis) * market cap, which is around $4M at current prices.

I could be totally wrong obviously.

[fair temple]

Wait so how much would this come out as? :D sorry but if you say All land total sale price will come out at 0.2×0.05×4M then there is no way that T1 land will sell for 3-6sILV

[sweet lintel]

I think it's per fuel slot?

[feral hedge]

Depends on the distribution of lands (number of T1 vs T2 etc)

[lusty crag]

As far as I understand it, the main production of the fuel comes from the landowners and from the total sales of fuel in all games about 5% comes back to the landowners.

Despite everything, you still get 100% of your fuel when you sell it.

[feral hedge]

I thought it was 10%

[sweet lintel]

Fuel generation will be 50% from ILz and 50% from DAO iirc

[feral hedge]

I may have totally miscalculated that 🙂 Lemme check.

[lusty crag]

This gives the landowners a lot of power when you consider that if an agreement is reached between them, for example, not to put fuel on the market for some time.

[sweet lintel]

I think that would be as likely as an agreement not to buy lands before certain treshold ;p

[fair temple]

That would mean each land would go for 2$ no? XD 0.05×0.2×4M /20K if i did something stupid then would you mind calculating a test group? :p

[lusty crag]

That could be good, but you basically only know when the time comes.

[solemn wadi]

did you mean 2k?

[feral hedge]

Nah, I did the stupid thing. It means on average a land should be 4M / 20k = $200. So less than that for T1. So I must be off somewhere, or we may be severely overpricing lands.

[shadow ridge]

Does the Dutch auction mean that the price will be set at x amount and go down over time if not all are sold yet?

[faint rapids]

20k first sale for land really ?

Who can afford that 🤷‍♂️

[feral hedge]

Can someone please tell me why this logic is flawed? Pretty sure it is, but can't figure out where.

[sweet lintel]

20k land plots

[livid tundra]

I will be honest in saying don't bother in trying to establish some kind of mathematical reasoning for the pricing of the lands, it won't work.

[sweet lintel]

It doesn't really make any sense 🤷‍♂️ the lands will be valued based on the amount people are willing to spend on them

[feral hedge]

Haha, I guess that makes sense.

[faint rapids]

I think lands is going to be overpriced

[sweet lintel]

Looking at the prices for purely esthrtic NFTs should give you some idea what people are willing to pay. Add a game and a way to make money with it on top of that and prices could skyrocket

[lusty crag]

My guess is that we will see prices of over a million for T5 but well below 1 million for T4 and all others.

[limpid terrace]

I agree, but that is also super vague as below 1 million is still a pretty large range, with 99% of that amount being out of most people's range to spend lmao

[faint rapids]

If we take example of axie lands, they was sold initially for 1eth for T5 lands. And axie was way more far in their devlopment

If we directlt have a price of like 50k for T4 it's goins to way too high. And in some month we can think it's going cheaper

[lusty crag]

But T5 from Illuvium Zero with an arena on it which will host eSport events is a slightly different league than Axie T5 - in my opinion.

[limpid terrace]

But axie STILL doesn't have use for their land. whereas for ILV, the land will be almost instantly useable (not instantly able to turn a profit until game launch though)
Plus afaik axie never said that their land was going to be able to provide an income from it?

• the fact that people can now see that virtual land is a thing and in demand (just look at how much axie land prices have increased) that will drive the price up as people want to get their share of the pie

[cosmic aspen]

there's also only 7 total t5 land plots.

[little moon]

I wouldnt be surprised at all if someone drops $10m for a T5 lol

[cosmic aspen]

of which only 1 or 2 will be up for bid in the first sale.

[limpid terrace]

I think we should just be excluding t5 land plots for most of our speculations. as we already know that the team are trying to drive interest in them to large scale investors because of all the perks of owning a t5 plot. I'm guessing they will go for multiple millions of $$

t5 is just on a whole other level of profitability when compared to t4 and lower

[lusty crag]

If you consider that there are only 100k land and there are already so many here in the Discord channel and the game is really successful in its marketing and in its future planned projects - then in reality the first land sale will probably be the cheapest and the last of the currently five planned sales (of 20k each) the most expensive where you can buy land.

[little moon]

Im kind of worried that even T1 will be over $5,000 now that it produces fuel. A lot of people werent considering T1 before who now will be. It could drive up the whole price scale by raising the bototm.

And by worried I mean excited to count my revdis.

[lusty crag]

Somewhere understandable if you consider that there will be an arena that actually belongs to you in which eSport events are held.

Despite everything, I would definitely say that you can still make a lot of profit with T4 and T3 as well as with the other two tiers if you buy at a correspondingly good price.

[south belfry]

Some people might not even use the land they buy there’s that aspect too

[limpid terrace]

well yes and no. I believe they want to have all land plots sold before main game launch. This means that land wont be profitable until after launch (excluding blueprints I believe?)
So therefore, holding the land from 'now' until launch is only providing captial gains.
However, what will drive the price up is the fomo and all the new people who find out about illuvium after the first land sale etc

[south belfry]

It would be better for the game if they didn’t release them all before launch it would give future plots more value and what not

[faint rapids]

Ye

[lusty crag]

I can only agree.

Imagine buying 20 tier 1 land plots and waiting for all of them to be sold after the first sale, then the first newcomers come with a lot of money and think - oops, I missed that, well then I'll buy it via OpenSea from someone who was there for the first sale.

Alone if I imagine that there will be some interested parties here, you could easily try to sell a Tier1 for 5-10 times as much.

#NoFinancialAdvise

-Of course, on the assumption that there are enough people who have missed out on buying a land and really want to have one and then can afford it somewhere.

[limpid terrace]

Oh absolutely. I wasn't saying that other plots wont be profitable. I believe all plots should be profitable in the long run. It's just that all the perks and benefits provided on the t5 plots (not to mention their exclusivity of there only being 7) will really drive the prices up and really only be available to big boi investors

[limpid terrace]

I think they want to have them all out before launch so that they're not giving 'late comers' a disadvantage of being behind on their land development after launch.
Obviously, super late comers that don't find out till after the game is released will miss out, but I think that's not really what the team is concerned about

[lusty crag]

Under a million or a million, a T5 won't go away.

But if you are one of the lucky ones who managed to bid for a T5 for 1 million but you don't want to do the work to yourself then there are two options.

One is you organize the right people who work for you and manage the whole thing - or you sell it for 10-50 times the price.
Depending on how great the demand for it is.

So if you get it to a million and then sell it 70 times as much, then you would be the one who has made the largest NFT deal to date, which is currently 69.4 million.

#NoFinancialAdvise

[limpid terrace]

because how unfair would it be if you're there at launch and want to buy a land plot, but they don't release more land plots until 1 month after game launch. now all of a sudden you're behind everyone else's land plot by a month

[south belfry]

Considering how it’s a minigame that same logic should apply to the main game then everyone who comes late should be sped up to the average progress right?

[lusty crag]

I haven't looked at it that way yet. Interesting point.

[south belfry]

Doesn’t matter if they’re late they’ll still be able to make money, what about people who can’t afford even t1 would it be not “fair” to them they can’t afford it?

[limpid terrace]

Yep, there definitely could be someone who's looking to flip t5 land. but imo, due to the sever lack of t5 lands (only 7) people who want to flip it for a pure capital gains profit won't be willing to spend as much as someone who is willing to put the effort in to make the profit from using the land long term (if that makes sense).
So theoretically the people that buy t5 land wont be to flip it, but for the long term investment.
Obviously I could be completely wrong, but that's my thoughts on it

[solemn wadi]

I though T1 lands dont produce any sellable resource

[little moon]

Theres a new doc pinned

[limpid terrace]

why would that matter for the people who are late. I'm saying that by game launch, there will no doubt be more than enough demand for the 100k plots of land. so delaying land sales until after game launch is unfair to those potential buyers, because now they are behind by x amount of time. and the profit you can get from the land (in terms of resource farming) is directly linked to the main game

[lusty crag]

I agree with you wholeheartedly.

I looked at it from the perspective that if you actually auctioned it for a million and then there was someone who actually offered you 80-100 million as an example - in that case it would have to be weighed up whether you would not accept the exorbitant offer and thus also minimized its risk in terms of that if it happens later that it did not lead to such a success as initially assumed which I do not assume, however, to the current level of information and the leaks we have seen so far.

[little moon]

Im pretty sure they arent planning on selling all the lands before game launch. It would make more sense to release lands as the player base grows as a means to keep fuel supply/demand constant. If all the lands are released at the start the fuel production will have to be adjusted a lot over time.

[solemn wadi]

Thanks! Can those resources be sold?

[limpid terrace]

I believe they changed it. T1 will now be able to farm fuel as well

[limpid terrace]

Yep, I could be completely wrong and that may happen lol. Who knows what's going through all those whales' minds lmao

[south belfry]

Well with that logic go start playing clash of clans and email them saying it’s unfair youre 10 years late and want a maxed base

[limpid terrace]

That also makes a lot of sense. I just heard a rumor that they were going to sell all land before main game launch

[little moon]

Why would it be unfair to allow the people who bought first to be ahead? They took the most risk. Just because there is demand doesnt mean the DAO is obilgated to sell the lands. By that logic we should sell enough lands for everyone to have one.

[lusty crag]

haha, the same goes for my statement, we'll know soon enough anyway. 😆

[south belfry]

There’s going to be speed up mechanisms most likely if you want to progress faster

Everyone should be able to own a McDonald’s to make money right? What about the people who bought a McDonald’s franchise before me it’s unfair they’ve made way more money than I have week 1

[limpid terrace]

that's not what I was trying to say at all lol. The original argument was that they shouldn't release all the plots until after launch because that will make them more valuable after launch (and people see how great they are etc).
That's where my perspective of it being more unfair to those that were early but missed out on land, purely to delay the sale to drive higher prices, comes from.
I agree, there are good reasons to delay some of the land sales until after the main game launch

[south belfry]

I’ve suggested batches of 20k until 100k sold every quarter

So by the time the main game comes out there could be 40-60k released with the rest throughout the year

[mortal merlin]

Btw it was suposed to be 10k lands

And we pushed for 20k

[south belfry]

Also think a lot of people are priced out anyway probably 70% of holders

[limpid terrace]

I agree. I bet a lot of shrimps like me are hoping to be able to buy one but will be priced out anyway 🥲

[south belfry]

A lot might not even be interested in the land and there’s 11-12k holders

Some people don’t wanna pay to play they’re just staking and earning so they can use their silv to play the main game

[limpid terrace]

that's also true. some people may not see the time investment required to be worth the potential profits. Which may also lead to some buying just to flip (lets be honest, we know this is going to happen)

[little moon]

I feel like they should make the T0 lands still a NFT that you just have to pay to mint. That way everyone can still "own" a land, even if it doesn't produce any value.
Might stop people complaining about the limited supply.

[south belfry]

That’s essentially a rug cause they waste money on gas lol

And considering they’re infinite would make no sense

[little moon]

I mean if people want to spend money thats their prerogative. Its not a rug pull if you dont advertise it as having value to begin with.

[limpid terrace]

there's certainly pros and cons to that approach. as long as the higher tier land is worth the extra amount, then sure it could still be worth it. but then there is also that issue of lack of exclusivity etc

[south belfry]

It’s more along the lines like if uniswap ate your gas fee uniswap “rugged” your gas lol

[little moon]

^see people want to burn cash for useless shit.

[limpid terrace]

people burn gas for useless shit everyday lmao

[little moon]

I know, i say give them the means to do so if it makes em happy lol

[limpid terrace]

will the t0 plots that can farm fuel and other resources be able to sell them to the main game as well? (obviously not making them real $)

[south belfry]

No that would crush the economy

[limpid terrace]

so are all the resources for main game coming from the 100k paid land plots?

[little moon]

The fuel and resources on T0 lands arent blockchain assets. They are just for the player on their own land.

[south belfry]

That’s no different than the US printing money

[limpid terrace]

ah yep gotcha, that's what I thought, just wanted to double check lol. thanks

[little moon]

I think most of the main game resources are mined in the main game. IZ is mostly only fuel and blueprints.

[limpid terrace]

True. I'm pretty sure you can still get all resources in IZ (hydrogen, silicon, carbon etc)
But I forgot that people will still be able to mine them in the main game

[south belfry]

This just supplements the main game with cosmetics and fuel giving people a another way to make money

[fluid leaf]

SLP means what? im sorry im new here SLP i only remember the axie cripto thing

[cosmic aspen]

sushi liquidity provider

[fluid leaf]

aaaaa make sense thx guys

[amber atlas]

We want the game to be widely accessible to mainstream players, ideally millions, as a channel to get players in to the Illuvium metaverse

I suppose we could just let some of them 'mint' land, ie just those who want to, but where does this land physically sit? I think it devalues the real land quite a lot, while giving no real benefit to the NFT owner (the NFT value can't go up, as a new player can just pay whatever the base price is to mint a new one)

land is supposed to be special and valuable, it is supposed to be a piece of digital real estate

[lusty crag]

@amber atlas
When can realistically be expected that further documents and thus further information up to and including a trailer will come out at IZ?

This week, or are you unable or not allowed to give us any information about this at the moment?

[amber atlas]

this is the plan yes, we don't have a specific timeline defined after the first sale, but together with the council and community we will work one out

[amber atlas]

further documents, or specifically the details of the sale?

I'll aim to drop some more GDD excerpts every week, the Land / Land Sale FAQ will go up on the website about a week before the sale

[lusty crag]

For example, or more details about the map that will be available?

On which you can easily see where the land you want to buy is roughly during the dutch auction.

[amber atlas]

so the land sale app will have an interactive map as seen in other land (e.g. the Sandbox), except it will look prettier

[lusty crag]

So can we assume that further major announcements about IZ will only be published a week before the Dutch auction actually begins?

[amber atlas]

I'm not sure how much earlier this will be out compared to the sale date, not decided, but certainly it is built to handle "on sale soon" type behaviour (i..e it can be out before the sale)

I don't know if we will release a static map earlier than that... its very large if just shown as a single static image

[lusty crag]

I understand, above all I would like to roughly estimate how far sILV will continue to move in its current price range in the next 7 days, which is why I would be so interested if there will be any further information about IZ this week.

[amber atlas]

there may be other announcements before then, but that week is required to give time for people to read, analyse, ask questions, etc

there will be small updates between now and then, GDD excerpts, images, AMAs, chat in this channel, etc

[muted moth]

There has been a lot of debate about land renting today; any insight you can give us regarding this @amber atlas?

[lusty crag]

If there were a direct link to the map and the position where this land plot is located during the Dutch auction, that would make things a lot easier - during the Dutch auction.

Among other things, it would be great if the FAQ contained the extent to which the different land surfaces will differ from one another - with the exception of the cosmetic.

Another interesting point would be whether there would also be the possibility to buy packages during the Dutch auction, such as a 2x2 T4 package which would really be 2x2 adjacent to one another.

Is something like that realistic or does it mean that you have to take a closer look at this yourself during the dutch auction, or will there be coordinates in advance with the publication of the map?

@amber atlas

[amber atlas]

the map/land sale app lets you put pieces of land in a wish list, and track their prices and when they go on sale, etc

[lusty crag]

That's great, thank you Johnny for this information.

[amber narwhal]

what is the budget you guys want to spend on this land sale? or the price range you guys will be willing to give

[unborn pilot]

@amber atlas Will there be the ability to look at another player's land and buildings, layout etc.? Like a spectator mode or something to that effect?

[little moon]

ill spend up to 10k

for a tier 2/3

[crystal temple]

I'm not even sure. This is so new. A year ago the t1 may have gone for $300 now I think they'll may go for 10x that. Is that reasonable, cheap or a crazy? I wish I knew.

[little moon]

probably 1-2.5k

Does anyone have any thoughts on what the ratio will be for silv v eth for purchasing land? 60/40?

[buoyant wasp]

I will assume 80/20 , anything less the land will be unaffordable

[grizzled spruce]

when is the land sale? --so would i need to buy the SILV from uniswap to buy from the landsale?

[muted moth]

Depends on how much sILV is claimed. Right now there isn’t much in circulation, so maybe only 15-20% could be bought with sILV. But I think as we draw closer to the sale, that number will go up significantly

[little moon]

So if 80% of the sale was used as silv would this then inflate the sale price of the lands? Considering silv is significantly lower than ilv

[buoyant wasp]

No you can use eth

I currently estimate abt 2k for T1 land and 7k for T2 land and 17.5k for T3

[vivid cipher]

So far I don’t believe that has been decided. Some argued that there should be a setting to allow it to be kept private so as not to give away someone’s structure building plan.

[bitter glade]

Your account will work for both. I never said you can’t play both. Just that you can’t literally play both at the same time. Meaning you only have 2 hands.

[bitter glade]

You would do it because someone offers you enough to make it worth it, like all things.

As for the confusion of what we are building all I said was:

1. IF we build functionality to allow this, it will be better than 3rd party because it will be designed and safe.

2. If we do something it won’t be called scholarships, because that’s a deceptive name.

[buoyant wasp]

Thanks Aaron for the clarification ! I was wondering what "scholarships" Kieran was referring to in his tweet, guess it won't be for IZ...

[unborn pilot]

Got it that makes sense thanks

[amber atlas]

its technically very doable, but we need to work out the privacy options (i.e. never view vs always view vs owner can decide who can view)

[opal thistle]

I think you are correct, I am timing my rewards to claim in sILV the amount I want to spend right before the auction. Because of compounding Im pretty sure a lot of ppl are doing the same

[south belfry]

*cough Foreman *cough

[buoyant wasp]

I am not sure of the compounding part, if you are claiming sILV there is no compounding and also if it stays as rewards there is no compounding too, but I guess can save on gas as well as ability to change your mind

[south belfry]

Glad more people are starting to discuss some sort of program for people to play your land for you, I remember I was scolded for that idea 😂😂

[unborn pilot]

Makes sense thanks! When you have a min I had a few others for you lol.

1. Could you give some examples of what a very active play style might look like compared to a very passive one? For instance, would active mean they are sitting there and clicking "pump" every X minutes on their buildings, spending an hour a day vs. some kind of auto-harvest timer when being passive and leaving it for weeks at a time? What are the differences in play style?

2. Are you able to share a ballpark yet of how much you can sell a building for relative to its construction value? Like 60% salvage value?

3. Are there any details you can share yet about how authentication will work? Will it be the same/similar to the main game?

[opal thistle]

I did not mean compounding sILV, I meant that the other option for claiming sILV is ILV so that means I dont want to miss on that interest. For example I have the ammount I want to spend in sILV right now but will claim it in ILV because I know I can make it right before land sale again and will not miss out on the interest the ILV I have right now will give me this weeks

[buoyant wasp]

If IZ is pretty much an idle clicker, you can cut out the middle man 🙂

[lusty crag]

How many sILV do you currently get for 1 ILV per day?

[south belfry]

Yeah I’m just speculating cause let’s say I have 20 lands they said it’s approx 30-60mins a day upkeep from the start so that would be lengthy, it will obviously take less maintenance the higher the buildings and longer times take

[muted moth]

thats pretty big brain

[south belfry]

So let’s say we get to test our base layout before the game launches cause it gets wiped, you can easily tell the person renting your land hey build it like this for max efficiency

[muted moth]

I wonder if people will rent land that isn't developed already; because from what I have gathered, it will take awhile to reach that max efficiency

[opal thistle]

That question has a lot of changing factors. There is a good excel spread sheet in #🥩〕staking that gives a good estimate of the rewards you get per token sraked

[low geode]

Awesome! Y’all are on point.

[lusty crag]

Would you give me a rough number without having to look into the excel?

[barren spruce]

Is the app released yet

[livid tundra]

no

[weary swan]

is this true only 20% of total 20k land plots will be sold in sliv? why cant we just choose what currency to purchase it in

[buoyant wasp]

all land can be bought with eth or sILV, the rest is just speculation if people will use eth or sILV

[weary swan]

ahh i see i missunderstood. why are people speculating this? just for the dividends return?

[buoyant wasp]

Yes and also sILV is cheaper on the secondary market so it might make sense to use sILV reducing eth income

[barren spruce]

Thanks

[weary swan]

yeah im stacking sliv more buying power its a no brainer for land sale 😆

[opal thistle]

This is more of a #795846467084484619 or #🥩〕staking channel conversation

It's pinned in #🥩〕staking

[copper willow]

got it thx 🙂

[thorny crater]

For iz I am wondering if I will have to connect my wallet to my phone….cause I don’t want to do that now That I’m thinking about it

[muted moth]

I think they said IZ would be playable on desktop as well, so you wouldn't have to connect to your phone if you didn't want to.

[bitter glade]

Do you mean your phone NUMBER?

[blissful storm]

I think he means to install MM on the phone and connect MM to IZ

[amber atlas]

there may also be an option to sign in with your account, and connect your account to your address using wallet on a desktop

although that wouldn't be the recommended option

[scenic sky]

Please don't allow people to 'rent'/scholar land out, it could devalue fuel long term for those that actually want to play and harvest it themselves. It would also encourage whales to buy them all up and keep fish/dolphins from being able to afford land.

[muted moth]

Don't forget about the shrimp!!!🦐 #shrimplife

[bitter glade]

People will do this regardless. As they have with other games. By creating something internally we can make sure that it fits the needs of any many parties as possible.

[gaunt slate]

The back half of that is definitely the biggest concern I have. It does incentivize whales trying to lock up a land monopoly.

[jaunty ermine]

Spiral or what

Man immutable X is great i am glad illuvium chose that market

[muted moth]

Spiral?

[opal thistle]

🦐 #shrimplife 🦐 !!!!!

[muted moth]

I should put it on a tshirt. On the front just the big emoji shrimp. On the back #shrimplife and the illuvium logo.

[opal thistle]

Sir, you got a costumer in me 👌

[muted moth]

I can’t stop laughing at this one😂😂

[south belfry]

people will monopolize regardless

you dont win monopoly owning 1 property

this isn't a game its real life fair is off the table

[muted moth]

Just get boardwalk and will the dice to make people land there every single time

[south belfry]

lol if only

[jaunty ermine]

or where thats shrimp stuff from

[south belfry]

being in the council would be sick

[muted moth]

It’s the ranking system datara made that just categorizes people by how much ILV they have

[next obsidian]

If there’s a monopoly driving up prices, the DAO in theory could just vote to issue more land to increase supply and drive prices to reasonable. It could also issue land outside of an auction format, make it something acquired in main game or another game. They could still buy it, but it creates more complications.

[south belfry]

that would be reckless

[next obsidian]

Talking down the line of course.

[south belfry]

still would undermine everyone who fronted the risk of getting some

[next obsidian]

If there was a serious problem with fuel and the affects on the economy of the other games.

[muted moth]

Yea they won’t do that. Completely devalues land

[south belfry]

fuel doesnt only come from the land its just another way land can earn money

think of it like you got solar panels and you're selling your extra energy back to the power provider

they provide most of the energy but you're providing them some at your expense and upkeep so they give you a check every month

[muted moth]

What a great analogy. I like that

[south belfry]

i just get technical lol

[unborn pilot]

Why is it not a recommended option? And what would be the recommended option, to use your wallet instead?

[jaunty ermine]

ahh ok

[south belfry]

the best option would be to create some type of secure portal on the website that tracks all your land and all that land is linked to the account the address is on, and just use that log in info to play the game

i.e on the app store you had your game center account that tracked all your game progress if you ever deleted the app, all the data was saved to the account. the same could go for the land metadata if your address is linked to your illuvium account

[exotic valley]

@amber atlas
My interest in buying land would be so that I could use the resources I farm on land that ** I Own ** and use those resources directly in the main game for my own personal benefit.

Currently I think the plan is not this?

So I would have to farm resources on my land and sell those to the market at a 5% loss (fee), then in the main game, buy those same resources at a 5% loss (fee).. So even if I spend thousands of dollars on land, I still have to eat a 10% loss on using my own resources farmed on land that I own. Is this the actuality of it? 😵‍💫

Discuss 🧠 👂 👀

[south belfry]

not sure entirely id like to think you can give it to yourself in game

[exotic valley]

This is the info I am looking at, it makes me wonder.
#🎮〕illuvium-zero message

[small star]

You can't give to yourself ... for now

[south belfry]

ah didnt see that maybe we should get 10%

i mean we are fronting way more buying land

[buoyant wasp]

Well if there is enough land owner support , we can write an IIP to change this 🙂

[limpid terrace]

That does make a lot of sense though as it's going to make fuel tracking and regulation much easier (instead of someone creating a fuel farm and then supplying all his homies cheap fuel)

[buoyant wasp]

But I will hold off until I actually get enough land so it will spike the price if it got passed 🙂 if I didn't get land in the end won't affect me

[exotic valley]

I could see a restriction in sending to others, but to use for oneself is different I would think.

[south belfry]

vote me for council ill fight for the slum lords 🤣

[limpid terrace]

Yeah I agree, it sounds like they won't have that immediately though but have plans of implementing it which is fine imo

[exotic valley]

Staking is nice, but I want to make my fortune via PVP, so I will need to spend a lot on resources to acquire and build my teams, so the land bringing in extra resources will be helpful.

[limpid terrace]

No doubt, I hope to do the same. I'm sure I'll see you on the PVP battlefield

[amber atlas]

well the most secure option will be u/p + wallet as MFA

'recommended' might not have been the best word, we will have different options, you can choose which you are comfortable with

[south belfry]

simple answer would be if you can afford land you can afford a ledger

put your land on the ledger

[marble bear]

Does anyone have any guesses or estimates on how much each tier of lands starting price will be? Does 10k sound like enough to beable to get tier 2 or 3 land?

[amber atlas]

Fuel is the primary revenue mechanic, so in order to distribute resources across the game we need an equation like:
Total Fuel Supply = D + L
and D = aL+ b
L is land owner supplied fuel
D is DAO supplied Fuel
a is a ratio of L to D with an expected value of around 9
b is some steam of resources that come in to the game regardless of L (for example it could be total players X 100)

I've already discussed with @bitter glade that it will feel better if rather than getting ETH for 10% of Fuel you put in the pool, you get ETH for 100% of the Fuel you put in the pool, and the DAO also generates 9x that amount of Fuel to match your transaction

its the same thing from a revenue perspective, but I think it feels better

[exotic valley]

10%? I thought we sell fuel for eth and Vault gets 5% of that as a fee

[amber atlas]

mechanically we don't allow direct transfer to your own wallet as it means fuel isn't going through the pool, but with the 1:1 model we can probably make it look like this in the UI

(i.e. you transfer your Fuel to your wallet in the UX, but mechanically it is going first to the pool and then to your wallet)

[exotic valley]

So, if im understanding it correctly, if I farm 100 fuel and sell it to the market I'd only get eth = 10 fuel?

so then to buy fuel in main game id have to pay eth = 100 fuel , so I would lose 90%

[amber atlas]

from original token docs, the fee was originally 10%, plus on top of that the DAO was generating half of the Fuel directly so overall revdis to land holders ~5%

[amber atlas]

in the new model you would get 100%, but the utility of that fuel would be less (you would need to buy more fuel for the same action)

you need to remember that in the land/IZ model all of the core game revenue (travel, sharc empowerment, etc) comes from Fuel

if land owners generated all Fuel they would get all the revenue from the entire game

thats why the DAO needs to generate fuel

[limpid terrace]

I'm guessing this is because the amount of fuel the land will be generating is ~10x the amount of fuel you would respectively need in game (in relation to the time taken to acquire said fuel in IZ)?

[amber atlas]

the ratio at which the DAO generates fuels is aimed to be about 95% of the fuel, based on the eqaution above

which means 5% of game revenue goes to land holders

[exotic valley]

Well that clears up my misunderstanding, thank you. So buying lands to help myself progress is not really optimal, the land is more just for revenue generation

[amber atlas]

you can use it for your own progress, and in the new model it will feel better due to 1:1 ratio

we haven't talked at all about HOW MUCH Fuel is generated relative to game needs

[little moon]

One fuel site would have to produce much more than one player could reasonably use right? Otherwise it seems there wouldnt be enough fuel to supply the main game.

[amber atlas]

depends on the player, there will be ways to burn lots of Fuel, whales play games too

[exotic valley]

I had assumed selling fuel for eth would net 95% and 5% would go to the vault, and when I buy fuel in main game 5% would go to the vault.. but if I am only getting 10% of what my land produces in eth, then I don't feel that spending a few grand on land for what would amount to a 10% savings on my main game fuel costs would be worth it.

I would probably be better of spending that few grand on fuel

[limpid terrace]

Ah gotcha, yeah that makes more sense. if the DAO generates 9 fuel for every 1 we generate, then when we 'sell' it, we won't feel like we're being ripped off lol

[little moon]

If all you want is to 'have fuel' I imagine the best way would be to stake the SLP pool and claim sILV to spend on fuel.

[amber atlas]

yep, its totally a 'feel' thing, but I think it does help a lot

[exotic valley]

Might be

[limpid terrace]

Yep, it completely changes the 'perceived' value of the land

[exotic valley]

My main goal is to build a stellar team, so thats going to require lots of fuel for travel and shard curing etc. Of course looking for a way to make that less expensive haha.

[limpid terrace]

@exotic valley Perhaps if you look at it this way, 100k plots of land (land owners) need to supply (hopefully) millions of players. if most of that revenue went back to the land owners, there would be practically none for the vault. So if that 100k land accounts for 10% of the fuel generated instead (DAO creates other 90%), then the amount would make a lot more sense. Less fees as well of course

[amber atlas]

that's not really right (these numbers are hypothetical, please don't go round saying Fuel costs 1 ETH):

original Scenario: Main Game Action X costs 100 Fuel, You generate 1000 Fuel, you sell for 1000 ETH, you get 100 ETH profit, which you can either keep, or use to buy 100 Fuel in main game to do action X

new scenario: main game Action costs 1000 Fuel, you generate 1000 Fuel, you sell for 100 ETH, you get 100 ETH profit, which you can either keep or use to buy 1000 Fuel in main game to do action X

---

in both cases you make the same profit and have the same ability to do things in the main game

the only thing that changes:

• ETH price of Fuel due to higher supply (in this case from 1ETH to 0.1ETH)

• the Fuel cost of in game actions which is adjusted based on requirement to have a fixed real world cost for the actions (i.e. in this case by a factor of 10)

[small star]

I've done something like that to try some simulations

[limpid terrace]

OMG Fuel costs 1 ETH! 😝 https://tenor.com/view/start-spreading-the-news-spread-the-news-scatter-the-news-tell-everyone-spread-the-word-gif-17182445

[amber atlas]

😛

[limpid terrace]

But in all seriousness, that's a simple and clear breakdown of how it's going to work. thanks 🙂

[fallow igloo]

Very good explanation @amber atlas thank you for all the clarification 👌

[bitter glade]

You're thinking of the IlluviDEX where there is a 5% fee for transactions from player to player. (I assume)

[exotic valley]

It could be. I have read so many things that maybe they are starting to bleed together 😵‍💫 lol.

JohhnyA got me straight though, good stuff.

[little moon]

is this at all acurate? I feel like it would take less time to ROI

[small star]

I think you're missing the point of my message (that was about the calculation of fuel usafge/value math). My message include "something" "try" "simulation" ........ we've no info, how can i come up with something accurate ? XD

[crystal temple]

It is impossible to do a ROI with no concrete numbers to input.

[small star]

Exactly .... OK, let's look at the unknown we have to deal with :

• Quantity of players
• Price of fuel
• Fuel use per player per day
• Quantity of land of each tiers
• Price of land of each tiers
  ....... And here i go with the assumption that land production adapt to consumption of fuel ....

[limpid terrace]

Lol, try harder next time. we only want the cold hard facts 😝

But yeah, there are sooo many unknowns atm that it's pretty much all just speculation unless it come from a team member lol

[small star]

😆

As I said a while ago, we all want to be able to understand the rentability, but if you look at it, Johnny and Aaron are giving way much more information on usages/capabilities/functionalities than any other land sold in any other game.

[limpid terrace]

So true. considering there's nothing official released about it yet, they've been total lads about helping to answer all our questions and everything in here

[vivid cipher]

One of the things I liked with the first model was it made sense scale wise.

But it still could make sense scale wise if the lore allows that the giant drones can burn fuel more efficiently due to not needing to shield the fragile Valain from the effects of fusion reactions or something.

[brave pebble]

Hello Aaron, big fan of the game and lp too 🙂 Isn't the deterministic engine gonna generate strategies that dominate all others too hard? Also that would leave almost no chance for Elo2100 player to beat Elo2700 for example, which i believe is not in the spirit of rpgs in general

[sweet lintel]

It's all up to how you place vs how enemy places.

Isn't that kind of how a working ranking system should work? 2,7k should win against 2,1k most of the time. That's why they have a higher mmr

[amber atlas]

not the channel for this discussion, but let me give you a few thoughts... one of the cool things about having the deterministic engine is that we can use ML techniques to run millions upon millions of battles to determine if there are any balance issues

in terms of the game systems at a high level:

• the game has several paper/scissors/rock type systems, so no one team will be the best
• in PVP modes you place your Illuvials in rounds, so you get an opportunity to see your opponents picks and react to them in subsequent rounds

[vivid cipher]

Yeah and it’s not like you need to hope to draw the right card. You play with your full inventory. So many options. But yeah #814313819185741845 or #802110554784661544 maybe #💥〕leaks-discussion

[still crag]

I read si many numbers... I don't get it at all how the ROI will work for land holders, but I want a land lol

[vivid cipher]

Fuel production on land will simply not be enough to earn back the initial investment in the short term. Certainly not as quickly as ILV. But that’s why there are other earning mechanics like blueprints. PLUS land is not going to lose value because it’s resources will have been depleted. It’s not a cow or even a farm or even a factory. It’s digital and non degradable (well not without an IIP or gameplay balancing). Land investment cost itself is not a lost investment.

[still crag]

Thanks for explication!

[bitter glade]

If you ask this in the other channel 'ask us anything' or 'game ideas' i guess, I'll answer as best I can.

[brave pebble]

Ok, gonna copy the post in game ideas then 👍

[placid galleon]

wow that's one terrible ROI if this is anywhere close to the real thing 😄

[vivid cipher]

Total Land earning from fuel will be about 3.5x the revdis return for fuel for total ILV. There’s more to it than that though.

[placid galleon]

from what I read thus far I've only ever confused myself further, it'll be great to have a file / FAQ with all the info explained in detail with examples when the time comes, I don't really understand half the things you mentioned here as well 😄

[vivid cipher]

https://tenor.com/view/cant-sleep-phone-also-me-aline-triste-gif-15791615

[weary swan]

So basically there saying we won’t make any money from land with fuel 🤣 but we can scan for illuvials and mine other in game resources we can use hopefully

[amber atlas]

~5% of game revenue goes to land holders, we can't say what that will be, we aren't supposed to speculate about figures for pretty obvious reasons

but if you plug in an estimate on revenue based on some value, divide it by 20k and multiply by .05... well thats your choice

[amber atlas]

in short that is definitely not what we are saying

[still crag]

That would be per land owned?

[amber atlas]

that would be appoximate average per plot, but wouldn't take in to account tier

[still crag]

Well with the common example you mentioned and deleted fast hahaha it returns me an average of 922$

[amber atlas]

not all revenue, but all in game revenue, there will be things that earn revenue outside of the game (e.g. land sale)

[amber atlas]

I figured that was a bit too close to speculating 😮

[still crag]

Sure, it's early yet. You cant assure yet those numbers, although we all truly believe its going to happen

[little moon]

Is that divided by tier too?

[earnest pulsar]

Wait a minute, ur a women?

[amber atlas]

no its just the first 20k of lands averaged across tiers

obvioulsy over time the percentage will go down as more lands are sold

[slim flint]

so to start off with only 20K lands will be sold?

[plush surge]

yes

[thin oyster]

there are more than 20K plots tho. each land has 100 pieces of land correct?

[amber atlas]

there are 100k plots, 20k will be sold in the first sale

inside the land plot is space to build many structures

we tend to avoid calling the space inside the plot 'land', as it gets a bit confusing if two things are called land (even if it technically true)

[little moon]

How much will land cost and when sir

[amber atlas]

it is a Dutch auction where the price starts very high, and falls over time, this allows for the market to buy at the price they think is correct without a lot of contention (ideally avoiding 'gas wars')

the sale is slated for ~10 weeks from the original IIP approval, which puts it at the end of October/start of November

more details of the sale will be posted on the website closer to the sale date (as well as I'm sure in many other places)

[little moon]

Then how would you percieve the high price. If your starting high then going low. Hopefully without gas war

[amber atlas]

I'm not sure what that question means, you would perceive it by looking in the sale interface which shows the price (declining over time), is that what you mean?

[sleek glade]

Is it true IZ will be exclusively available for mobile platforms?

[placid galleon]

no he meant why the high prices if returns will be low/cannot make any assumptions, that way people might end up paying a high price for something that gives low returns compared to the purchase price

[slim flint]

the price might not be high. if no one buys and the price keeps on decreasing the price will eventually be low

[placid galleon]

oh yeah because that's how things happen in crypto, people paid millions for land plots on embersword which will give them useless skins 🤦‍♂️

[lusty crag]

That’s a really good point - I mean if you pay 100k for a T4 as an example and you get only 100 $ in fuel per month … well then that’s not worth it spending so much on land in relation to its revenue.

[slim flint]

Then don't buy it for 100K

[placid galleon]

yeah but no way to know whether that roi will be 100$ per month ot 10000$ per month, that's the thing - you need to buy in blind 😄

[lusty crag]

Men you know as good as I know that they won’t go out for cheap money. 😄

[lusty crag]

Hmmm …. but did I understand it correctly… you get only 10% of your sold fuel in ethereum and the other 90% goes to the DAO ?

[placid galleon]

and I'd consider any return below the one that simple ILV staking will give a LOWISH one

since we actually need to do some planning etc. on lands, it's not a sit it and forget it 😄

[slim flint]

Especially because you need to "work" for this return.

[lusty crag]

There should be a risk / reward for those who buy in early labd buyers.
But in case that you get only 10% of your sold fuel … well that would be nothing.

[placid galleon]

I think many people will get rekt with all the FOMO that's going to come in with the auction 😄 with all the variables on the actual return

[lusty crag]

I hope that we get all the variables before the land sale is going to happen - otherwise the risk of overpaying is way to high.
In such a case it would be better to wait on the 2nd or 3rd sale and wait and see the real numbers from the people who bought in early.

[placid galleon]

Yeah I'd rather overpay a bit after we know the variables than buy blind and risk overpaying big time 😄

[lusty crag]

Same over her. But do I understand it correctly that you as a land owner as fuel producer - you get only 10% of your sold fuel ? Or are we as land owner providing only 10% of the fuel and the 90% comes from the DAO ?

[exotic valley]

I am most curious to know if it will provide enough resources that it can get me 2 loops a day

[amber atlas]

as per pinned message we've opted to move to the the second option as it just makes things simpler/feel better, but it has no actual impact on return

(note that the actual ratio is not finalised, but will be described in the land sale FAQ before the land sale comes out)

[exotic valley]

So if i produce 1000 fuel, and sell for 10% in eth, that eth will then buy 1000 fuel in main, so it will feel 1:1 , yes?

[amber atlas]

you just sell it 1:1

there is no 10% in the trasnctions you see

the DAO will generate fuel for the pool to match your sale at a ration of around 9:1 plus some more steady tap (e.g. tied to number of players)

[slim flint]

How long do you think you will need to run your land at 100% efficiency to make back your initial investment?

[amber atlas]

I can't answer that, it depends on what your intial investment was, and how much revenue is going in to the game

[lusty crag]

So 50% of all the whole fuel which is produced comes from the DAO and the other half from the land owners?
And if I‘m a landowner and I‘m selling my fuel for let’s say as an example for 100eth - I‘m getting these whole amount and could buy in the main game if the fuel price is stable buy the same amount of fuel back.

[amber atlas]

somewhere around 90-95% comes from DAO, but otherwise yes

but be clear all in game revenue will be coming through Fuel

travel, crafting shards, forging weapons, etc

[lusty crag]

Wait so the land owner provides only 5% of the total fuel production?

[barren spruce]

10%

[amber atlas]

somewhere between 5-10%

Total fuel production = L + aL + b
L = land poduced fuel
aL = DAO produced fuel in relation to L (expect a around 9)
b = DAO produced fuel a steady flow of fuel (probably tied to number of players)

b is to avoid all land holders not producing fuel, and thus the DAO having nothing to match and thus no fuel in game

[barren spruce]

basically, land owner provide 5-10% of the fuel to ILV country while the rest are from DAO, this has nothing to do with your income or whatever, you'll get what you sell ur fuel for, simple as that, am I correct

[amber atlas]

yes

see last pinned message

[lusty crag]

That’s not a lot - considering that if you spend lots of money on land sale and you will find later on out that the demand for your fuel is not really high or in other words the fuel price is kept down low by dao then you are going nuts. Cause it would decrease the overall value of your land too in relation to „who wants to buy land for a certain price if he makes only 10% of the money he pays in let’s say 5 years.

[amber atlas]

I think your estimates of revenue may be well off, but thats the risk that you take

[exotic valley]

As a staker, i'd like to see 5k per t1 land.. as a player, I'd want to pay $50 for t1 land 😛

[barren spruce]

thanks, as a non English speaker, I thought I understand you even better than some ppl here so I just wanted to try to clarify

[lusty crag]

Well in this case - if there are no provided variables with which you can calculate upfront the land sale is going to take place - then you can go also into the casino and put the money on the roulette table.
In relation to overpaying due to fomo people.

[exotic valley]

It's an adventure! eh. You can also spend 15k on a beautiful tropical beach vacation and be stuck inside from a week of heavy rain.. but we still do it.

[lusty crag]

The things which were clarified in the last hours are definitely decreasing the value of land in relation to that you get your money back in relation to IZ land sale.

[lusty crag]

Well whales aren’t adventurous friendly in case you are paying 100k and you get only 10k in revenue over 5 years. That’s just hypothetically but anyways …. that’s not so funny … cause in this case DAO has the full price control over the fuel due to the fact that they provide 90% of the overall fuel supply in the whole game.

[barren spruce]

we're basically speculating a lot of things here, we still don't know what else these lands can do or provide

[exotic valley]

Yes I was looking to spend a few K on a tier 2 or 3, but since i was going to do it for my own in game progress and not for profit, now im not sure it would be worth more then a few hundred.. to me. It might be different if you are just taking $ from your eth.

[plush surge]

i feel like a very big assumption you're making is that price control = very low prices. I'd rethink that assumption

[amber atlas]

the value of the land has always been that a percentage of revenue, to get to thinking that this wont be profitable basically means you are making a very low estimate about the amount of revenue generated, or are very high estimate of the price of land

I don't think it will be the case, but you could be right

in any case we will establish the details of the mechanisms in the docs

and you can make your decision based on that information

[lusty crag]

Yep, that’s the whole point.
I calculated with 100k minimum for a T4 … but based on the current informations it‘s more likely the that if you pay so mich for a T4 and you get in comparison only 10% „pure hypothetical“ … well that would mean that you make not even 50% of your initial investment back - it also means that your initial value of 100k for a t4 what you might have paid was way overpriced.

[exotic valley]

I think, for me, it will come down to how many loops a day my land can provide for me in contrast to what I could accomplish by spending that money on raw fuel instead of land.

[amber atlas]

based on what revenue?

any calculation you make has to be based on some estimate of total in game revenue, and some estimate of the relative production of t4 vs a normal land, I'm hamstrung here because I can't make a speculation about revenue

[exotic valley]

If 3k would get me 60 loops, that's a month's worth. If land would net me 1 loop per day but for the next year, it might be worth it, but if I get one loop's worth of fuel every month from it, I think I'd be better off just buying 3k in fuel for that first month to build my team up more enthusiastically.
I do realize that my interest in land is probably not the same as most who have profit in mind.

[amber atlas]

but I think if you plug the equations in to a spreadsheet for different revenue from 0 to some large number, you can get a pretty good view, then its up to you to decide then where you think the revenue will fall

maybe a range of probabilities, or just a single value

[barren spruce]

I appreciated you taking the time to answer these questions @amber atlas tough work

[lusty crag]

Based on my own pure speculations.
I just got another impression over the last weeks of researching in relation to the revenue of owning land in the T3 - T4 range and these impression were that you are at least able to get your money back in let’s say 5 years time by selling your produced resources and blueprints. Based on 100k for T4 and 50k for T3

[amber atlas]

so reverse engineer that equation, and see what revenue is required to get that

and then make a call on if you think it is likely

[lusty crag]

+1 - thanks for taking the time to answer all the questions @amber atlas

[amber atlas]

its cool, the only hard bit is not saying numbers

would make it much easier if wasn't working for the project and could guess/speculate as to what what I think revenue might be 😉

[sand coral]

Land isnt just fuel theres lots more to it which will make money right? Too much focus on the fuel generated alone

[barren spruce]

I understand, everything is all speculations at this point, it's an awkward spot to answer some questions

[lusty crag]

So as far as I understood it - the document which will be provided before the land sale is going to happen, it covers some more variables ?

[amber atlas]

there is also BP generation (NFTs), and of course potentital appreciation (or depreciation) of the land itself

there is also arbitrage (find market differences between different fuel types, and address it using optimised converters)

there might also be potential to take empty or poorly optimised land, build optimised structures, and sell land with structures for more than purchase price (but this is not 100% confirmed/worked out)

[sand coral]

Thanks Johnny appreciate the info, much more to the land than just fuel

[lusty crag]

If I would have to break it down - it comes to the following super basic questions what nobody knows so far. How much stuff can I produce per day with the different land tier‘s and what’s the value of these things … but that nobody is able to answer these questions for now is totally clear - we will know it as soon as we see the land‘s in action.

[barren spruce]

it definitely has to be more than fuel, there's so many things you can do with it from the dev stand point.

[amber atlas]

for sure, and there is also what happens in the future, but I don't want people to be making decisions based on possible features

[barren spruce]

thus no more guessing and speculating and just wait and see what the dev will come out with

[barren spruce]

sadly that's what I based my decisions on and I'm a ILV believer so I'm going (mostly) all in on you guys

[amber atlas]

sorry guys got to run, but I do understand that you want as much information as possible, particularly if you are making a significant investment

[barren spruce]

thank you, appreicated your time and take care

[amber atlas]

just keep asking, keep pushing 🙂 ... (but do keep in mind that until official docs are out that nothing is locked in stone)

ciao

[cinder fractal]

Keep in mind how some people are willing to spend some time developing land to make that income it can be fun experience... They are not looking at that time like working time

[placid galleon]

Can't really do any fair criticism as of now since we really are missing a lot of pieces, hopefully some more are put on the table with the FAQ, but I just wanted to confirm regarding the % sold by land owners : DAO, by DAO we mean proportionally the ILV holders & stakers, right?

So the DAO and Land owners will be the 2 sources selling fuel to the players, as planned for now 10:90.

Why is the pinned example made in a way that land owners would be the only sellers and creators of fuel when in fact DAO will also be selling most of the FUEL?

If land owners were to sell 20% wouldn't they be getting just a bigger chunk of the pie - thus getting 200 eth for the 1000 FUEL instead of "doubling the supply" and still getting 100 ETH?

[cinder fractal]

I was also confused a little bit by those statements

[placid galleon]

by mine or the ones I'm asking about? 😄

[cinder fractal]

The questions you are asking they were in my head2 :)

[lusty crag]

In one of the interviews, not so long ago, kieran portrayed it as if the landowners were the ones who also had a certain amount of control over the "Fuel", as far as I understood in the interview with one of the YouTubers. With a 10% share, this is anything but the case.

[cinder fractal]

Maybe I'm limited but I can't see how my investment in land is going to make me anything close to my staking investment(revenue +apy for now)

[placid galleon]

maybe they didn't want to deduct much of the % that goes to stakers, that's fair, but that's also unfair for the land owners, 10% is nothing and other things would need to seriously makeup for it

[placid galleon]

yeah I'll keep on staking as well i guess

[cinder fractal]

I will buy some land only for fun but most of my illuvium portfolio will stay staked

I was thinking like this imagine one day if i give land to my kid and he/she can learn about economy and to earn they own money playing the game

There is no school or university that can give you that knowledge

[lusty crag]

I can only fully agree with that.
I am glad that this has now been addressed again in such a concrete way.
Since the value of the land plot has now changed completely, considering that the land plot owner only has a share of 10% of the total production.

which is a bad joke considering that it's just 10%.

[cinder fractal]

Good thing is we have council and they can change that any time

[lusty crag]

To what extent do you think it is realistic that these numbers will be adjusted again to 50/50, for example, before the land plots are sold?

[placid galleon]

it's the main revenue of the game, can't expect it to be a high %, but 10%? That's too low, it should at least be doing better in $ value rewards than simple staking :D, for example if staking 1000$ would be earning 5$ per day, a land worth 1000$ should be making more than these 5$ and by the looks of it it could be making even less 😄

[placid galleon]

yeah I'm curious to hear what they have to say in the matter

[cinder fractal]

I think how staking and land revenue should be almost the same all the time if one is going in other direction just pull it back

[lusty crag]

I was willing to spend a considerable amount on land plots but that is changing everything.
What I really didn't find ok was that communication came across differently, for example in one of the aforementioned interviews with Kieran in relation to the fuel you produce as a landowner and thus in relation to the "total" share you make up.

Or was it aaron who came up with this in one of the interviews, i just don't know 100% whether it happened with Kieran or aaron in one of the interviews.

[cinder fractal]

@ivory vine can you maybe check last 10min of our discussion we would love to here your opinion, someone who is in council

[plush surge]

hi guys actually im not sure what's causing the sudden uproar on this 10%. i remember quite a while back what we thought was

• fuel is provided 50/50 by DAO/ landowners
• landowners get 10% of what they sell and 90% goes to treasury (i think)
• and so landowners get 5% of total ETH made from fuel sales

From the updated info it seems like Johnny is saying

• fuel is provided (90-95)/(5-10) by DAO/ landowners
• landowners get 100% of what they sell
• so landowners get about 5-10% of total ETH made from fuel sales

Doesn't seem to have any diff for landowners, in fact it seems better off. Or am I missing something?

https://discordapp.com/channels/760344898200666112/857471213513605140/893501782829957151
👆 had a discussion on that previous setup with some of the other mates here for e.g.

[hardy brook]

A proposal can be put forward if land owners aren't happy. Absolutely nothing is set in stone

[potent dock]

There's been super extensive discussion about who provides Fuel. Some large amount HAS to come from the DAO tap. If the DAO tap doesn't produce a large enough proportion, you can't purchase Fuel for sILV, which means sILV would have VERY limited use cases. Additionally, if too much Fuel comes from landowners, there is literally nothing stopping landowners from "unionizing" and stopping people from playing the game by withholding their Fuel. This is also not good for the game.

As far as expecting your land to always generate some number of dollars in profit, that's not super reasonable. You give a pretty arbitrary example of $5 per day per $1000 spent on land, from Fuel only, based on not much.

The truth is, we don't yet know exactly how much you'll stand to make off Fuel, because we don't know how much Fuel will be consumed, what the price will be for Fuel supplied by the DAO, how many players will be playing etc.

Additionally, these things can all be changed if they are not right. No one is out to screw over land owners, and if land prices go the moon, should the team have to develop around what the market decided land is worth? Land will be worth what people think it is worth. There's an element of speculation, as land could be integrated into future titles, and could be super lucrative in the long run. I don't think land paying for itself in 4 months is remotely reasonable, even just thematically.

[lusty crag]

Of course, one can assume that there will be further adjustments and uses in the "future", but everyone who seriously invests with his money does not buy something on a basis where he does not get off well in terms of profitability at the moment.

As far as the price of the fuel and the demand for it is concerned, it is very clear that nobody knows - what seems clear, however, is that as a landowner you ultimately end up with only 10% of the total cake.

Based on the current information and my understanding.

[potent dock]

I think this is correct. It's still a HUGE slice of the pie TBH.

If you feel that there's not enough potential for short term profits, based on the limited info we have, you can always skip buying land. The best hedge against land selling for "too much" is just owning ILV for a bigger share of revdis.

If land prices go insane (IMO this is $3k-$5k per T1, based just on my gut), I'll pass up land sale personally.

[lusty crag]

By the way, does this 10% relate to the 100k land plots that will ever exist?

If so, then as an owner of just one land plot, for example, you get even less in reality.

[lusty crag]

So if you seriously want to tell me that you consider 10% a lot when it comes to prices. some of which will be astronomical as some may buy it blindly.

Well then, good night.

[barren spruce]

isn't 10% based on the total revenue ? which is most likely going to be pretty high ?

[plush surge]

Exactly.. or at least total fuel revenue - which i'd assume to also be really high

[potent dock]

I think 10% of one of the main costs in a game is a lot, yes. If we're doing $100M a month in revenue, and $8M of that is going to landowners (not all revenue is from Fuel), I consider that to be quite a bit. Add in blueprints, land appreciation, and the potential value for future titles, and it's not super hard to see why people think land is cool.

[plush surge]

and hasn't that kinda been communicated from the start?

[barren spruce]

I'm not smart tbh but I feel like 10% is huge, I don't understand why people think it's chump change, maybe I'm missing something and I'm dumb

[potent dock]

I don't think anyone is saying it's not somewhat speculative, but it's an investment like any other. There's risk and speculation.

[lusty crag]

Wait, are we referring to total revenue with the 10%?

I would have thought we talked the whole time about fuel production which only accounts for 10% of the total.
Well in that case there was probably a misunderstanding.

[potent dock]

It's not 10% of total game revenue, it's 10% of Fuel revenue. But Fuel should be more than 10% of total revenue IMO. Again, this is hard to model, because it's a free market economy. I'd expect Fuel to be something like 60-80% of total revenue. (NFA)

[barren spruce]

agree and that's why I think it makes it almost impossible to answer some of these questions because there's no guarantee and all kind of investments always involved certain level of risk, you can't just say "you'll get this amount of cut off the profits because you're a land owner" this is more of a game than investment in a business where everything has to be much more clear cut

[lusty crag]

Okey in that case there seems to have been a misunderstanding on my part,

I thought we were talking about how much the land plot owners contribute to fuel production.

Now how high is this number now - in other words, is it so that the 100k land plots now make up 50% of the total fuel production and then get 10% of the total fuel sales income from Illuvium and Illuvium zero or what does it really look like?

[potent dock]

Land owners get ALL the revenue from the Fuel they produce, which is intended to be about 10% of the total.

[lusty crag]

And the other 90% are then produced by whom?

[barren spruce]

I put quite a bit of money in this game already and I'm ready to take the risk, can't blame anyone, it's my money, my decision and I will get a land and if it flop, F me, I took my chance

[potent dock]

Fuel is an ERC20 token, so you can obviously sell your Fuel at whatever price oyu want.

[barren spruce]

DAO no ?

[potent dock]

90% is produced by the DAO Fuel tap, which enables buying Fuel in sILV, and keeps the price of Fuel stable in the event that landowners are refusing to sell their Fuel for whatever reason. Basically it stops the game from breaking if landowners decide not to sell.

#🎮〕illuvium-zero message

[lusty crag]

Not really when the other side produces 90% of the total fuel and thus holds the price scepter in hand.

[barren spruce]

i thought this is already answered so many times and most people that read this channel should've know about it by now, I just started reading this channel today even

[plush surge]

mate, even by your logic.. which monopoly in the world sets low prices for the products they sell?

[potent dock]

In no way is it beneficial to have land owners control whether or not people can even play the main game because they have such a large chunk of Fuel production that they can prevent people from playing, or price people out of playing the main game.

Give this a think for a minute.

[barren spruce]

man I have a headache reading these questions, I feel for the ppl answering these questions every day

[potent dock]

There will be a small degree of freedom re: prices with Fuel as a landowner, but you can't just decide that your Fuel is now worth 1 ETH each and expect that to be the market price, and that's a good thing.

[lusty crag]

There is definitely something true in there - after all, every mainstream player should still be able to play the game without having to spend huge amounts of money on it.

[potent dock]

Yeah, exactly this idea. If we want to control entry costs for players within some boundary to ensure we don't go the way of Axie and have insane entry prices, we need to keep control of those prices primarily under the umbrella of the DAO.

[lusty crag]

haha, you can try - whether you would be successful is another piece of paper 👍😄

[tulip phoenix]

As usual this big discussion goes only to people thinking only in themselves, want to control the fuel to sell at their will and price. Just remember this is a mini game and you are just providing resources to main game, if you stop people from playing the main game because the fuel prices are to high you don't win either way with your fuel because no one will buy fuel for crazy amounts of money.

[fast obsidian]

👍

[crisp blaze]

Alternatively, someone with big bags of money who wants to sabotage illuvium by making it unplayable can easily go this route. Good thing we have a council to look out for the best interests of the entire playerbase, and not just one particular sector 🙂

[mortal merlin]

In what world 10% of all fuel revenue is "smol"?

Its huge. Token holders basically lose that 10%.

[fleet isle]

Can someone link me to the PINK paper on this Fuel story ...the WHITE paper is to bland!

[vivid cipher]

Maybe this… would be interesting https://youtu.be/UBpaPbbXu4g

It may not have very much in fuel though… can’t remember

https://youtu.be/Cul-B4un-eY

[placid galleon]

nobody wanted to create a monopoly or smth, it was just asked why is it just 10% and whether that'll makeup for the thousands of $ people will be putting in, nobody is asking land owners to be the majority and decide whether the game lives or dies 😄

also nobody is thinking of themselves there's no biased people YET, no one has a land YET, just asking questions which will help people see things more realistically

at the end of the day if staking ILV is more profitable than owning a land for what god damn reason would people be throwing such amounts of money into it? I doubt the gameplay part will be something exceptional and impossible to find in another game 😄

[thorn moon]

I think this is an incorrect statement. Whales are constantly thinking returns, guarantee they’re thinking about it here. If they hear something they like, they WILL be biased towards buying the land, regardless if no one owns land yet. I personally think fuel revenue is going to be insanely high, but that’s speculative on my part.

It’s like drops, the more info that comes out (whether we like it or not), we start making biased opinions on whether or not we participate in the drop and try and mint the NFT

[placid galleon]

What makes you think it'll be insanely high lmao, I think the exact opposite

[placid galleon]

nobody has a flesh in it yet so, no reason to be biased again.

[little moon]

about the land sales, is there any chances, that we pay the gas fee, even if we don't get the NFT minting going on ?

[thorn moon]

This is a biased opinion, as mine is a biased opinion lol

[vivid cipher]

Updated with newer numbers…
Except if you only consider the scarcity of land compared to ILV tokens and then compare the percentage each will receive of FUEL sale revenue… land is only 3.5 to 7 (say 5.25) times as valuable as ILV.

[placid galleon]

Hmm, interesting because I won't be buying lands, because I believe they'll be low on rewards, it's not like I own a land and am saying INCREASE MY REWARDS please

it's my honest and neutral opinion

[thorn moon]

I see what you’re saying here. The 3.5 times as valuable, is that based on particular values?

If that’s the case, then the only worry is buying in at the price you think is fair, right?

Let the whales overspend, right? 😂

[vivid cipher]

Well there are other valuable factors as well but yeah.

[vivid cipher]

7million ILV versus 100k land. And 5% versus 95%. I may need to update my calculation. It seems it may be 10/90

[placid galleon]

but then also cheapest land is expected to be like 2-3k, yet ILV is just 650$ currently so the 3.5x would be 1x in the end if these are the numbers

[thorn moon]

It is 10/90, read that earlier. Another thing. Are people going to view this as regular NFTs that’ll appreciate in value because of demand, or because of return of fuel based revenue? I think that mix is really what is driving the price speculation (which I think is fair considering an ether rock sells for millions)

I think while return is not so good, people are going to buy this anyways, just due to how NFTs in general this year have skyrocketed in price

[inland smelt]

What does "Indirectly" mean ?

[vivid cipher]

Use sILV to buy FUEL. Use FUEL to speed things up

[inland smelt]

Oh, I thought that we have to use ETH to speed up building. So, its the same to ETH right ?

[vivid cipher]

Yeah. Supply and demand.

[vivid cipher]

Yeah. Use eth to buy FEUL and use fuel…

[inland smelt]

Got it! thank you

[vivid cipher]

It’s more about diversification and for those that WANT to play and not lose their time invested.

[gaunt slate]

If I read everything above correctly, ROI for land is going to just be heavily dependent on game revenue from what I've been able to read. If we use that 5% ballpark, and the game brings in 100mil in rev in a month, the hope is to get 5% of that revenue back to land holders(15,000,000). 100k lands would be an average of 150$ per land that month. More for higher tier, less per lower, scaling according to fuel sites.

BPs are basically impossible to ballpark at this time, and my assumption would be that that percentage would fluctuate based on Rev generated from fuel vs dex trades, unless DAO fuel operates in a way to maintain that percentage.

I assume sILV use on land may also have an impact since it's use doesn't directly result in cash inflow for the DAO or Land Holders.

[thorn moon]

Was there any mention about increasing the revenue percentage slightly (maybe up to 15-20%) and the impact that has?

[vivid cipher]

ILV holders DAO riots

[gaunt slate]

20% is MASSIVE. So is 15%. I think 10% might even be aggressive.

[vivid cipher]

It already basically doubled from 5% to 10%

With fuel costs in IZ it should never hit 10%.

[thorn moon]

Even with the double in revenue, however, predicted is still going to be low then?

Predicted revenue* sorry.

[placid galleon]

yeah buy lands for fun 😄

[vivid cipher]

Fuel production on land will simply not be enough to earn back the initial investment in the short term. Certainly not as quickly as ILV. But that’s why there are other earning mechanics like blueprints. PLUS land is not going to lose value because it’s resources will have been depleted. It’s not a cow or even a farm or even a factory. It’s digital and non degradable (well not without an IIP or gameplay balancing). Land investment cost itself is not a lost investment.

(Sorry repost)

[gaunt slate]

Not low, it just scales with the games success. 10x those numbers for a billion in monthly Rev, which everyone here sees as possible, and the average land brings in 1500 a month.

[vivid cipher]

Exactly it’s a game.

[thorn moon]

I see, it’s all about how they scaled it for long term success?

[placid galleon]

and the ILV staking will be even more 😄

[gaunt slate]

You're not going to get a 2 month 100% ROI.

[vivid cipher]

Not necessarily. Just the FUEL side of both

[thorn moon]

Who wants that 😂😂

[vivid cipher]

Sounds like SLP staking to me.

[placid galleon]

people who did roi in 14 days in the axie boom 😄

[gaunt slate]

Lol, yup, and yup.

You also have to think long term - if fuel is used in additional games, that's a fresh Rev stream land holders could get a portion of.

[thorn moon]

I’m still gonna buy land, I think it’ll be worth long term when the metaverse expands

[thorn moon]

Took the words right out of my mouth lol

[weary swan]

I did ROI in bomb crypto in 3 days suck it axie infinity

[placid galleon]

:DDDD crypto blades was also that at some point, then a week later it was dead 😄 😄

[weary swan]

Imaoo bomb crypto still going strong although has has many nerfs… somehow I’m just milking it as long as I can 🤣. But damm all this talk makes me consider not buying land

[vivid cipher]

Alright. #799010390201466880 maybe?

[weary swan]

I’m not so much interested in the revenue

Generated by fuel , I thought having land will help u a lot in ur own game experience

[vivid cipher]

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1mjxD-MjO4eSG8IKTRewCzWbv6cYt1BVwFV276HyJPHA/edit I updated the second page of this document to more closely match updated potential FUEL return. Most numbers on both pages are speculative and can be edited

[sweet lintel]

If direct transition to yourself is out, you can still use the revenue to buy fuel in main game

[lusty crag]

1500 € for a T4 for which you might have paid 40 times as much would mean that you theoretically break even after 40 months.
where is the point of buying land at all?

The argument that you still have the value of the land plot itself - now who is willing to pay you the same value that you once paid when it is hardly possible to generate any income?

Little by little, IZ arouses more and more the imprisonment than it serves to let the stakeholders of Illivium get more money with the exception of T5 land plots which will have their own arena.

But I think that's a joke - until the point in time when this 100mio via fuel is implemented at all and the distribution of 10% is then also there, years could pass and, considering the speed at which the crypto market is developing, years are quite beautiful much time.

[formal bluff]

Sorry it's first time I see this document, could you briefly explain what i'm looking at?

[vivid cipher]

So page 1 let’s you estimate how many lands there will be. Page 2 let’s you estimate how much the land might be worth.

[bitter glade]

This is such a weird take. Limited NFTs with zero earning value go for huge sums. But rare NFTs that literally allow you to share in 5% of a game that is expected to have huge revenues are worth basically nothing? Have I got that right?

[thorn moon]

Appreciate the page! On page 2, what is the value of 26.25mil refer to?

[bitter glade]

You just didn’t understand. Land owners get control of 50% of the fuel when it comes to timing the selling.

[vivid cipher]

It looks at the relative value of ILV and extrapolates potential sale value of all the land in each tier. It assumes each tier of land will be sold for the same total as the other tiers. It’s a crap shoot for sure.

It was a fun pricing experiment I made.

[lusty crag]

This is how it actually looks that I still haven't understood the whole mechanism - will there be a preparation of the information that is clearly understandable in the near future?

[bitter glade]

My guess would be 0%. I’m not on the council but giving 50% of the revenue to the land owners would put even tier 1 land into the astronomical pricing realm. I mean, this can’t be a serious take, can it?

Look at the staked value of the protocol. It’s huge already. Giving 50% of the revenue from in game purchases with a limited 20k plots would just be ludicrous.

I mean these are some really basic calculations.

[bitter glade]

You are not missing anything.

[ember hill]

@lusty crag You already have more info about the land sale than is available for 99.9% of NFT sales, since this is a concrete project with a concrete roadmap and a concrete path to yield. Granted we don't know details yet but this is far from a roulette table. And the closer we get to the sale, the more info we'll have too I'm sure

[thorn moon]

Awesome, much appreciated for the share! Let us know if you make a more precise charting based on new info. Would love to know what estimate of ILV I should be holding on to 😂

[gaunt slate]

I think this just comes par for the course in Crypto as far as I can tell. In this space people are always just looking for the next Doge or whatever that will 20x or give 100% ROI in weeks, which are ridiculous. Those are outliers.

I can see land paying for itself within the first year pretty easily. That's an amazing investment.

[bitter glade]

Before looking any any numbers, can you tell me how much revenue land from other games generates?

Isn’t the most common number…zero?

This space boggles my mind sometimes when people get an option of something being so much better and suddenly having things be way better than anything else is worse.

[bitter glade]

And you can sell the land too.

It’s so weird. Because it’s like someone saying “I like cryptopunks but you know what would make them worthless, them generating passive income as well!”

[gaunt slate]

Hahahaha

[placid galleon]

collectables are basically useless, but I highly doubt land will somehow be seen as collectable so it wouldn't have it as easy as them imo 😄

[gaunt slate]

The biggest reason my money is pouring into Illuvium is because of things like a 3yr team lock, 2yr lock for maximum yield rewards(In V2), multi-game/multiplatform road maps, etc. Maybe I won't 300x my money in a week, but this project is built to be profitable for the long term. To me, that adds massive amounts of legitimacy.

[placid galleon]

yes it's weird, but when an NFT has a usecase people value it entirely on that usecase, rather than it being a collectable, something I've seen with different NFT projects

[bitter glade]

SOME people do. There’s plenty of people out there clued in enough to understand what has been missing from most sales is a usecase on the assets.

This is just the first usecase for us. We are confident that the majority will understand.

[thorny crater]

Please don’t buy land. Cause I’ll buy yours 😈

[vivid cipher]

I can guarantee that there are some people even holding 1 share of GameStop stock simply as a “collectible”

[thorny crater]

Dat me lol

[vivid cipher]

https://tenor.com/view/same-office-sad-gif-19573853

[vocal pasture]

Interesting discussion! So for what I understand, fuel production may be the main source of land revenue. Since all goes back to the pool and the revdis for holders, the % of production will help us investors decide if we put or cash/fiat in ILV for stake or in sILV/Eth for land, and in what ratio. Am I thinking right?

[gaunt slate]

I'm in this comment and I don't like it

[vivid cipher]

Blueprints may produce more revenue

[vocal pasture]

If the prodution is low, maybe it is better just to invest in ILV tokens and stake. If it is high, maybe buy more land

blueprints may be the unexpected random factor, then

Then a new even more interesting debate arises...should I claim sILV for land sale, or claim ILV for compound? 😉

[gaunt slate]

Yield farm on Staking is insane right now. Eventually there's only RevDis, but the Markup on increases to revenue being paid 90% to 9mil tokens, and 10% to 100,000 lands tells you that land owners will get the better deal on revenue increases.

[vivid cipher]

For me I want to play IZ so I’m gonna get some land.

[thorny crater]

Blue print > than fuel personal opinion. Maybe not a the very beginning but inevitably will be the highest paid items/ what they make will be great.

Minus new illuvials on expansions

Same. Saving every dollar I can to buy land.

Does out MM wallets need to be connect to our phones for iz? Or can I use my cold wallet?

[vivid cipher]

It’s all about ownership of game assets. Ability to “cash out” your in game “investment”

[blissful vortex]

Nice perspective and easy to understand when you put it that way!

[vocal pasture]

Where can I find more info about the blueprints? What are they, for that?

[vivid cipher]

Eventually it’ll be on IMX. But for v1 launch… don’t know

[vivid cipher]

Check the pins.

The scanning WIP

[thorny crater]

I’m asking cause I don’t have my wallet on my phone. If so I’d creat a new wallet just for illuviam gaming.

[potent dock]

There's a very small handful of successful NFT projects that are entirely useless. Most of the modern NFT projects that have mooned have project roadmaps, potential integration with other systems or projects like games, allow for cheap/free minting of future NFTs by the creators etc etc.

[gaunt slate]

I see it this way, right now, Staking reward are nuts, and you should absolutely be staked in the LP. Those returns are a cheat code to wealth. However, staking rewards can only trend down as yield rewards deplete until it's just RevDis(I say 'just' like Revdis won't be insane as well lol). Land ownership is likely to start low, but can only really trend up with more elusive BPs, more BPs from future gens of Illuvials being injections of value, future titles that use fuel, and a higher $ per $ return on investment from "RevDis"

TLDR: Staking rewards trend down as time passes, land reward should trend up and trend up faster as monthly rev increases for the main game.

[vocal pasture]

Thanks! I missed that one

[dawn cradle]

Lot of conversation in this chat for a day. One thing I think is that Johnny didn't say that revenue distribution to land holders for fuel would by 10%. He said it would shift between 5 and 10% based upon the number of players in the main game. So if the main game has a lot of players it would likely be around 5% I would guess, and if the main game was low relative to production it would be closer to 10%.

[vivid cipher]

It’s possible to have your MM wallet on both mobile and desktop.

[dawn cradle]

I also would think that the low end won't be 5%. As some fuel needs to be put back into the mobile game to develop upper end buildings, you will likely net lower than 5% on the bottom end. So like a T1 might net closer to 1% for example as it builds up, whereas a T4 could net 4.5% since it creates so much excess fuel. Just an assumption/guess.

But the one new thing to me is that the DAO isn't an automatic match of 50% but rather a variable match based upon number of players in the main game. That is new info and generically a positive development for land from my understanding.

[gaunt slate]

Words of Wisdom - Assume the worst, hope for the best. I would run all your theorys on 5% of Rev being directed to land, and make an average. Then apply that average weighted based on fuel sites.

[dawn cradle]

I would agree. I would go further and state that the beginning is almost certainly going to be 5% or less to start since you are going to have to develop the land. I think at some future point it could jump to 10% though to be honest that might be a negative as the Illuvium ecosystem would likely be missing more players than we would want. 5% is probably a good "net output" estimate.

[gaunt slate]

Yeah, it has to be variable. Player count could drastically punch above or below fuel production. To keep in game expenses on a fiat baseline, the amount of available currency needs to be adjusted to keep the same loose percentage of rev heading back to land holders as a whole

[dawn cradle]

I mean they could do that by changing the amount of fuel to travel/cure/craft in the main game. Doing it via the DAO match is better for land holders.

[gaunt slate]

Yeah, the only thing we can estimate is the amount going in as an average. More efficient or active players should punch above the average in their tier. Large amounts of inactive land increase rev share for active lands. There's going to be tons of variables that can impact your specific piece of that 5% pie

[gaunt slate]

Yeah, that makes sense

[dawn cradle]

agreed. But we can also assume that an active player to start is going to get more than 5% due to there being large players that are letting the lands sit to start compared to active players. If they do some sort of "development" system, then the active advantage goes down. Though to be frank, there are so many variables at this point that is like low on the list to me.

[vocal pasture]

One thing I didnt understand yet...illuvials scans, or blueprints, are the same as "catching illuvials" in the main game? or what are they really?

[dawn cradle]

they are completely different in a sense. So.. Illuvials in the main game are pokemon that you catch and train. In the minigame, you first scan them. It is random, and depends on the region you have (ice, fire, etc.) to what is likely to be found. Then once you have "found" an Illuvial you can research it any number of times you want. Research creates a blueprint if it is successful for a weapon, armor, etc. You then go to the main game and can use that blueprint (along with resources that exist in the main game) to craft the armament. The blueprint is an NFT. And you need that NFT to be able to craft the "item" and the NFT can be used to build unlimited numbers of that armament. But you need to have the other resources for it.

[stoic rapids]

so you can buy land with either sILV or ETH, right? if you are using sILV, is it worth the sILV market value of ETH or the ILV market value of ETH?

[devout isle]

sILV is 1:1 with ILV

So I just bought 2k worth of sILV sitting at around $281 right now. That's too good of a discount versus ILV to not participate in the land sale. Question is now whether that is enough to grab a decent plot or two

[vocal pasture]

Ahh great! So that blueprint is for crafting armor, weapons, etc in order to equip or improve that illuvial once you get it ingame, or is it independent?

[stoic rapids]

when will the land sale be? early november?

[dawn cradle]

it improves the player character that fights alongside the Illuvial. At this point it is cosmetic only though I would like to see that change in time 🙂

[dawn cradle]

From what I am gathering mid November. It was originally described as late October/early November though seems to have slipped. No confirmation of that yet though.

[vocal pasture]

Ahh ok...it would make more sense to be enhancements for the illuvial itself, once it was captured in game! 🙂

[dawn cradle]

I have no idea on their future plans but from my understanding that is not how it is going to work for the time being.

[formal bluff]

I got a doubt. After I research a blueprint of X item, can I use it on my account of the main game? Or is it like fuel that I have to sell it to the market place and then rebuy it on my main game account?

[south belfry]

What up slum lords

[stoic rapids]

where can we buy or sell sILV? uniswap only?

[dawn cradle]

Once you research a blueprint you get an NFT of it. It is yours. So... you don't have to sell or anything as it is an NFT that now exists in your wallet. You can only have one of it though, as you can't get more of that specific NFT from the piece of land. If you research it again though, it gains in levels which I believe would create a new NFT of the gear at a higher "level". Regardless, once it is in that wallet, as long as that wallet is what you use to play the main game you can build it in the main game.

[dawn cradle]

Looks like your foreman plan is getting more traction now.

[formal bluff]

But after I build it, will I still have the same NFT or not anymore? My point is: Can I use the blueprint to build the item and then sell the blue print and keep the item?

[dawn cradle]

yes the blueprint is not destroyed when you build the item.

[dawn cradle]

More broadly, the developers see a scenario where some people will exist in the main game solely to buy blueprints and build the gear which they sell to others. Land owners from this game may do that as well, or just sell blueprints to others in the main game that do that.

[formal bluff]

Got it. And besides gear like weapons and armor, I understand we can also research BP for cosmetic skins right?

[dawn cradle]

I think it is cosmetic weapons and armor only. Like the weapon is cosmetic only at this point. Again, I think subject to change and will change I hope, but for now yes. Like... if you want a samurai sword that is a cosmetic skin but has no stat modifications for the time being. There is no "universal" skin but rather individual helmet, armor, weapon, etc. skins for the avatar you play with.

[formal bluff]

Ohh I had it wrong then... So all research will be purely cosmetic as for the info available rn

[scenic sky]

I see 5-10% game revenue being thrown around and given to land owners, but do all land owners actually get this? Or only the ones actually generating fuel by playing and providing it to the pool?

[vivid cipher]

As you say… only those that provide fuel to the pool. You must PLAY the game to earn (t5 is the only one that may have an additional earning mechanic that might not require play)

[vocal pasture]

It would be great and would make sense to have blueprints to enhance the illuvial that originated it. For instance “thick skin” for atlas, that you would use or Sell for upgrading atlases on the main game

[vivid cipher]

That’s beyond the scope of what will be available in the main game, at least until later… there are many possible expansions

So a blueprint is not a one use item. It’s a recipe. For crafting the items and can be reused. #🎮〕illuvium-zero message this is not a real example of course.

[south belfry]

i mean in reality it makes sense

[thorny crater]

True I easily can, but it’s a choice I didn’t want to make.

With AT&T and they get hacked a lot. Last hack of our info according to this site: https://www.google.com/amp/s/bgr.com/tech/att-responds-to-report-that-70m-customer-records-were-breached-in-massive-hack/amp/

At&t denies it but I do not believe them.

[south belfry]

time is money to whales if not having to check everyday means they have more time to make money theyll do it

[thorny crater]

So to remedy this I’ll make a wallet for just illuvium I think would be best.

[south belfry]

ledger

[thorny crater]

Just like eso for certain items. Love it

[raw pewter]

Will the land really cost like 1 ETH?

[queen folio]

There will be 5 different tiers of land plots and yeah, many are speculating that the Tier 1 land (cheapest) could end up reaching 1 ETH in cost but there's really no way to confirm it.

The sale is going to be done via Dutch Auction.
So land plots will be listed for sale with HIGH HIGH prices and then the prices automatically begin to decrease as time goes on.
Once it hits a price that looks desirable to someone, that person will buy it.

[raw pewter]

😖

[south belfry]

buy all the land you can NFA

[little moon]

so as low budget we just have to pray god that whale won't buy everyland ?

[sweet lintel]

And that land rental isn't announced 🙏

[little moon]

Aww man all theses people thinking land owners were gonna get all the revenue from fuel crack me up. Like the ILV token should have no purpose now that land is being made? That would basically make the entire ILV token a rugpull for setting up the land sale.

Love when people fail to research an investment then get all tore up that the real investment isnt the same as the one they made up in their head.

[sage tree]

more

[barren spruce]

Man sooo much assumptions and biased opinions in here… “nope I’m just asking questions” Nope, you’re assuming things and wanted some kind of a concrete answer which nobody can gives cuz even the Devs don’t know if the game will be success or not, there’s just so many factors

[little moon]

I feel like most of the value is gonna come from blueprints anyways. Since thats the thing that is unique to lands. Having a bit of fuel income just adds some stability and allows building up your base.

[south belfry]

every day closer to land

[livid wharf]

Very true

[thorny crater]

Basically like every game that has ever come out since beginning of time.

Except this game you can get your money back.

Example with games and ps4 online monthly fees I’ve spend 1000+ on it and haven’t got back a dime lol

I keep seeing stuff like that^^ and it really shows the future of games.

Not a bad thing at all. But it’s coming to be.
Yeah you want me to spend money on your game? And what will I get out of it?
Vs
Those who spent 1000s to just play lol.

I’m still on option 2. The money is a bonus btw

[potent dock]

"...bu....but I thought I got 28 ETH transferred to my wallet when I bought T1... Why even bother if no 28 ETH on purchase?" 😆

[barren spruce]

Much better than gacha anyway and if you don’t like it, don’t play it, don’t touch it and don’t support it

[little moon]

Illuvium land might only provide a 10% annual return? but i could buy land in Axie and get a 000% return! Thats 2 more zeroes!

[tawdry thunder]

I will pray that a heard of whales buy next door to my blocks of land.

[livid wharf]

Haha same here

[little moon]

I might just try to buy mine off the market rather than the auction. I have a feeling some people will paper hand HARD after the sale if they dont see the value going up fast.

[thorny crater]

Yeah i get those people too. Proabley tired of explaining it possibly.

[thorny crater]

Very possible.

Or it does like any real estate market. First homes/land plots are the cheapest in a neighborhood. The last home/plot is the most expenses.

50/50 chance.

[little moon]

I imagine the inconveniences of nearby construction will be less of a factor in IZ than real life, but yeah probably the first land sale will be the cheapest, I'll have some funds prepared either way but if the T1s start going for $5k+ Ill be waiting for a better entry.

[thorny crater]

Same lol but i’d pay 5k for a t3-t4 easy

[vivid cipher]

I definitely think t1 will be more overpriced than the other tiers. It will still be the cheapest. But comparatively overpriced.

But I think a lot of things that turnout to be wrong

[barren spruce]

I feel for the dev having to deal with those kind of questions

“I’ll put my precious $1,000 in and I better get $5,000 in return or your game is a failure, so make sure that happens”

[little moon]

Yeah the competition for T1 is gonna be crazy since the other tiers will be out of most people's price range. Theres always the small chance that the sale gets way less hype than we are expecting and everything is hella cheap.

[vivid cipher]

https://tenor.com/view/theres-a-chance-jimcarrey-dumb-and-dumber-yeah-excited-gif-5384098

Actually I’d not be too pleased.

Looking for balance

[thorny crater]

Yeah its the future lol but i was born in the late 1900s so its cool if it don’t get my money back

[wide hollow]

any ideas on when the land sale will be?

[thorny crater]

I want that nature T5 so bad. Gym leader poison at your service

[little moon]

Hopefully early next month. No official date announced yet.

[wide hollow]

ooof ty @little moon

[harsh burrow]

Scanning illuvials in IZ aimes only to then launch a research based on that scan to find blueprints to build new skins ?
Or does it also permit to find illuvials in the main game ? Like would it be necessary to scan the illuvial on IZ to then be able to find that illuvial on the maingame ?

[livid tundra]

blueprints and skins. don't have to have them scanned to get them in main game

[harsh burrow]

Okok
So in the main game finding illuvials would be depending only on the luck when we travel ?

Like we don t need any special item to find them

[little moon]

Based

[compact mural]

You need to travel to an area that has them, and a crystal that has the ability to catch them

[compact mural]

Certain areas will have different/rarer illuvials.

[harsh burrow]

Okok thanks

[fallow igloo]

Uh uh uh yeahhh Doug, I’m gunna open up a bug-type Pokémon gym.- tik tok quote

[thorny crater]

Venomoth thank you very much lol

Gloom too

With slow bro as well. ICE/Water/Poison/possible self heals……. come get some.🤓

-bug type** lolz

[livid wharf]

Niiiice

[fallow igloo]

Lol ngl tho, the poison guys look sick, bulldozer and the scorpion guy are legit

[exotic escarp]

When the lZ land sale drops, I imagine everyone will want a few plots. But how many plots would you all feel would be a reasonable amount for one person to effectively maintain?? Like, do you think two lands could actually be too many for one person to effectively maintain?

[fallow igloo]

Effectively maintain? I think you could do two maybe even up to 4, but anything more then that I think you start losing efficiency

[thorny crater]

^^ i was thinking two lol. I wonder if they’ll let us log in to multiplier land areas.

iPad on one, phone on another, computer on main game lol

[exotic escarp]

Will plots be tradeable on immutable as well?

[little moon]

I may be mis understanding previous chat regarding revenue from land.

It's mentioned that generating resource fuel will not be profitable and the profit would come from 5% of the in game purchases. Is this correct

[exotic escarp]

Interesting. Following.

[amber atlas]

sigh still talking about revenue ... I mean I understand but I'm burned out ... I'm only talking about game features today 🙂

[thorny crater]

The math on everything is speculative right now.

There is talk of where land owners will only get a total of 5% from fuel, could be 10%. But will never be 100%

Also when we collect the fuel we do not get 100% of it. The DAO will automatic take some. That way we do not have anyone purposely manipulating the fuel market to make prices go sky high.

That’s all i know of now.

you can also search for Johnny’s chats in this channel. He has spoke a lot about this daily

It’s been over talked about lol. No one will truly know until launch, and even then the market will have to settle to get a good idea.

[potent dock]

This gets asked all the time in YouTube interviews so it must be a good question 😉 What part of IL:Z are you most excited about?

[thorny crater]

Pokémon nostalgia for me….feel like I’m in grade school. Soccer game coming up but 3 hours from now, just sitting in the car catching Pokémon lol in this case illuvials

[amber atlas]

the interplay between real world markets and in game markets (e.g. Arbitrage, Blueprints, etc)

I used to love to use knowledge of the game to making money on Runescape, only here it has real value (without back alley dealings that risk you getting banned)

(this is not just about IZ, but the whole Illuvium ecosystem)

[little moon]

Are converters still going to generate fuel now that T1 plots also have fuel?
Also do you know the approximate rate that a converter works at vs the output of a fuel site? (like how many converters would I need to convert the whole output of one fuel site from fuel x to fuel y)

[thorny crater]

I did that with ESO

[potent dock]

I'm super excited to a fresh economy to explore 😄 I cheesed Classic WoW economics pretty hard, but those were already known (for the most part) by anyone who cared to do research. Having a fresh and evolving economy will be amazing!

[amber atlas]

1.Yes 2. Perry is building me tools to help find the right balance as we speak... it will be quite a few, I would say about 10-20, but possibly more depending on how the balancing plays out

[little moon]

Neat. I was thinking about getting a T1 and covering the whole thing in converters and storage.

[thorny crater]

Alll converters and one scanner lol I like it

[amber atlas]

converters will get less efficient when next to each other

so you might need to stagger converters, storage and power generators

(for max output)

[thorny crater]

Ooo yeah i still need to learn which building hurt being close to each other. I know scanner need distance for sure

[little moon]

oh does each fuel type have separate converters? or is it like one for fuel one for minerals

[amber atlas]

one per type

[little moon]

im gonna keep those fuel prices so balanced.

[thorny crater]

@amber atlas can we talk about formal request feature for beta 😅…..asking for myself

[amber atlas]

you can, I will listen but not comment 😉

[thorny crater]

A for effort

[amber atlas]

once alpha is out we will definitely have to come up with some kind of feedback/suggestion form

[thorny crater]

Sweet.

So what is your main focus? Catching illuvials? Fuel suppler? Blueprints?

Me i want to be a weapon smith

[little moon]

Any thought to making the first blueprint discovered of each type a holo? That way there is one holo blueprint for each skin and whoever had it would control the supply.

[amber atlas]

sounds super cool, but it is a little too much like winning the lottery, and also a huge bias towards the first land holders, its cool enough that I will discuss with Aaron, but my feeling is being the first one to get something is already a major bonus, making that a one of one might be too far, and probably devalues other skins... still worth talking about though

even if not 1:1 introducing holo skins could be really cool, maybe only for stage 3 (so the research chain would go Stage 1, Stage 2, Stage 3, Stage 3 (Holo))

hmm

[little moon]

^ I like.

[little moon]

I thought it would be funny to have only 1 copy of the holo Blueprint just to see what people do with it. Some blueprints would be used to mint 1000s of holo skinned items and they would be all over the market while some people might commit to minting only 1 a month, making those holo skins very rare and valuable. If anyone wanted to make an ultimate chad move they could just mint one for themself and then burn the blueprint so they would have the only one forever.

[amber atlas]

I imagine the ingredients themselves would be expensive/rare too

[muted moth]

So just so I understand blueprints, first step is to build the scanner which scans for illuvials, and once it finds one, it gets a blueprint that is like a skin that matches that illuviual for weapons and armor etc. once we get the blueprint, what do we do with it? Are we able to use them in IZ or are they just for use in the main game?

[amber atlas]

so might be risky to mint thousands and then no one buys 🙂

[limpid terrace]

That'd be a big oof

[amber atlas]

**Scan ** gives Illuvial Biodata, Biodata can be used as a cosmetic item in your land via a Holographic Statue (i.e. show a statue of the Illuvial you scanned)

You can also **Research **Biodata to discover a Blueprint

The Blueprint must be minted to make it an NFT (at least in v1.1, may be automatic at some stage in the future)

The Blueprint is effectively a plan required to combine an item and skins to make a skinned (cosmetic) item (BP + Fuel + Ramphyre Skin + Tower Shield III = Tower Shield III (Ramphyre) )

[muted moth]

Ok that makes more sense; and can these items be made in IZ?

[amber atlas]

forging is part of the main game

if you didn't want to play main game (are you crrazy ?!? 🙂 ) you could still sell the NFT

[harsh burrow]

Hi JohnnyA
I have a question 😁
Will we pay eth gas fees to extract the benefits made in IZ with the fuel sellings ?
And same question with the blueprints earned from IZ, will we have to pay huge (eth) gas fees to extract them from the mini game ?

Or the plan si to link all of that with ImmutableX ?

[muted moth]

Ok that’s what I thought. Thanks for clarifying! Really looking forward to playing IZ

[amber atlas]

Fuel is not on ImmutableX for now as they don't support the balancer pool structure, so there will be gas fees to move fuel from your land to the pool in the short to medium term

these should not be huge, and you can build storage to save up lots of Fuel before selling to pool

[muted moth]

Do you know if IMX has plans to support it in the future?

[amber atlas]

I can't talk about ImmutableX we are under NDA

but suffice to say we will make moves to reduce or eliminate gas fees wherever we can

[muted moth]

Oh ok no problem. Regarding storage, is there a max amount we will be able to store, or could we theoretically fill every empty space on the plot with storage silos?

[amber atlas]

you can build as many storage silos as you want, but there is still a max given the space is finite

[muted moth]

Ok cool. I just wasn’t sure if we were limited to say like “ you can only build 5 of this and 3 of that etc.”

[amber atlas]

nope the only limitation is overall space, and potentially impacts on efficiency

(for example it might be better to built 20 converters spaced out, rather than 40 close together)

I haven't defined proximity rules for storage yet

need Perry's modelling/balancing tool to be updated to make good decisions about those

[harsh burrow]

And to "extract" blueprints NFTs from IZ to the maingame we will have eth gas fees ?

[errant inlet]

Will illuvium 0 be getting support and updates post release? Are those pencilled in already?

[amber atlas]

end state no, for v1.1 maybe

[harsh burrow]

Okok thanks for your answers 👌😁

[queen folio]

VERY curious to see what a Tower Shield III Rhamphyre looks like now 👀 👀

[barren spruce]

Agree with this, don’t make it more of a business than a videogame, we need to balance everything to make the game last

[thorny crater]

Give me “awesome” for 1000 bob

[vivid cipher]

Or make it so three of the same blueprints could be fused together to create one holo blueprint

[muted moth]

@autumn pond Sale is currently expected to happen in November. Probably in the middle would be my guess. As far as prices go, I think the lowest we could see for Tier 1(the lowest tier) would be 1k. Obviously this is just speculation

[autumn pond]

cool, Thanks man for sharing that!

[muted moth]

Sure! Feel free to ask more questions! There’s always someone here to answer😁

[errant trench]

and if you had to guess, HAD to, bare in mind. what do you think on tier3 and 4 eth cost? i understand this is not financial advice 🙂

[muted moth]

I will give you USD since that is what I am able to comprehend easier, but I think T3 might go for as low as 50k and T4 at 100k. But obviously this is all speculation. I also think the higher tiers are harder to price since they are rarer. But do with this what you will. Also, there are lots of other predictions in this channel if you want to see more opinions 😉

[limpid terrace]

It's really hard to guess these for sure. I'm thinking something like this
T1 = $1k-$5k
T2 = $10k-$25k
T3 = $50k ish maybe?
T4 = upwards of $100k
These are all just my guess and it's really going to depend on the supply and demand of each tier, as well as what the whale's goals are with land

[muted moth]

Man I hope I can pick up a tier 1 for around 1.5k so that I can get a few. But now they have fuel that seems unlikely. I may have to settle with just 1😢

[errant trench]

hmm, those are some interesting numbers. i plan on consolidating some cryptodads and cryptomoms when they drop. hopefully i get a rare ass mom lol!

[limpid terrace]

However, on the flip side, the gap between them might be way less. Like you could see t1 selling for $5k and t2 selling for $7k. Its so hard to say about how people value t1 vs t2 etc

[limpid terrace]

Yeah, if the gap between t1 and t2 is too much, I'm hoping I'll be able to pick up a couple t1s. But at the end of the day I'll be happy just to get a plot of land lol

Otherwise I aim to get just a single plot of the highest tier I can afford lol

[errant trench]

are they going to be selling them in tier batches? or all 20k for the first round all at once?

[muted moth]

My thoughts exactly. Its just my greedy fingers want to have extra plots to sell later once there is no land left😈

[limpid terrace]

Afaik they will be sold in mixed batches. No idea on total number per batch or ratio of tiers in each batch tho

[muted moth]

Not known yet, but it won't be all at once. Probably groups of x size that last for x time

[errant trench]

hmm ok

[limpid terrace]

Lmao yeah that's a good point, having that capital gains potential. Personally I'm looking more for the highest long term 'passive' income. Which imo would come either from higher tier land, or lots of low tier next to each other (but more time required to maintain)

[muted moth]

There will be a LOT of info coming out roughly a week before the sale detailing everything. We will also have access to the land map which shows the coordinates of the different plots on the map as well as which region it is in and what tier. So we will have time to read up on everything and prepare

[muted moth]

Fair enough. With what I have in purchasing power, I am only probably looking at either 1 T2 or 2 T1's. As long as I get 1 T1 tho, I will be so happy

[errant trench]

nice!, either way im going to be getting in trouble at work for farming on my phone while at work LOL!

[muted moth]

So true. I love the fact that IZ will be on mobile, but that also means I will be on it every waking minute lol

[errant trench]

can get caught sleeping on resources lol!! my notification sound will be max ><

[thorny crater]

I Wish ETH2 would drop and let me unstake my eth lol

[muted moth]

Oh you staked in it? I didn't even get the chance to

[exotic valley]

I think there will be an app that shows all the lands and their current values so you can keep an eye on the ones you want

[errant trench]

oh that would be wayy convenient..

[muted moth]

Yea it is going to be nice. They are building a custom app just for this land sale. Should make buying and watching a lot more intuitive which will be awesome

[errant trench]

oh yeah, definitely! I'm
hoping the first sale pushes back to December! I know you might hate me for saying that! but in my defense i need my cryptodads/moms to moon so i can consolidate fat stacks and put it on land lol..

[muted moth]

NO NO NO. but I would like over thanksgiving break so I have time to devote to watching it tho

[errant trench]

just put the cinematic on loop! lol!

[muted moth]

So true. Hopefully the trailer will be enough to tide people over to the end of november

[errant trench]

its suppose to be 3-4 min long i guess. vs the old 2min original length! that should be sick! that means they couldn't fit all the awesome stuff into 2min lol..

[muted moth]

Oh yeah. I'm hoping they release BEFORE the end of the month and not 10/31. I can't wait!

[errant trench]

same here!

[weary swan]

scanning for illuvials gets u free illuvial when discovered?

[errant trench]

biodata

[muted moth]

No. Scanning illuvials gets you biodata, which you research to find blueprints

[weary swan]

so u need do complete blueprint to get illuvial?

[south belfry]

Ya boi just got a fat payday for more land 🤑

[muted moth]

You can't get Illuvials from land. Only the main game

[weary swan]

ah so only skins and items u can get from land?

[muted moth]

Blueprints for items. As well as fuel

[mortal merlin]

I would suggest that everyone reads the Main game whitepaper and then all pinned comments in this channel before asking questions that already have been answered a thousand times by JohnnyA. Thanks

[thorny crater]

^^ plot twists I can’t read.

Except for all the words you just said 😅

[dawn cradle]

Johnny for this one, is there a limit on b. In other words, will b be such that it is never greater than (L+aL)? Or is it such that it will only be population based, such that it could in theory be greater than 50% of production is there are a lot of players?

[amber atlas]

we can't enforce that constraint because one of the main purposes is to stop land owners just deciding not to put anything in the pool, if b was always <= aL then it wouldn't help at all (as if a=0, then aL=0 and b = 0)

I think we could safely say that b < nL where n is the amount of fuel being produced daily (rather than put in to pool)

[dawn cradle]

fair. One note I would make is that you might want to have some type of "early surge capacity" as first few months there will be little fuel produced as nobody has built their lands up. You will likely need to make b > nL for the first month or two so that you don't have a supply shock to start. Longterm I would agree b < nL is preferable.

[amber atlas]

the pools are seeded with Fuel and ETH

we just have to seed with enough to cover this build up period

(and we could always have an IIP "Add more fuel to pool" if it is an emergency ... i.e. breaking the game)

[dawn cradle]

ok... seems reasonable. As long as you are prepared for it I am guessing it won't be a big issue.

Separate question. Earlier documents had different lands prioritized for different resources (Crypton on Ice, etc.). Latest document had 33% each randomized. Is there still resource preference on different land types or is everything 33% now?

[blissful storm]

These land price estimation are wild. How long will it take to ROI the land? lol

[formal bluff]

You read my mind bro

[amber atlas]

no relationship between region and site types in the current design

[muted moth]

Lol. Aa long as I can get one I will be content

[barren spruce]

😂😂😂

[dawn cradle]

for the overall fuel = nL + b, is there going to be guidance on what the optimal b is going to be in relation to nL? Obviously that is going to be pretty important and though I get the exact number will change the guidance for what the percentage of b to nL is going to be is going to be pretty important.

[formal bluff]

Now that T1 has 1 fuel site i guess they will be going for at least 2k

[dawn cradle]

doesn't have to be told now in fairness, but before the land sale I think it is important for "what the DAO would like it to be" should probably be advised.

[amber atlas]

we will have various target values, and discuss how will we aim to hit them, but there are a lot of things that are out of control/an estimate

[dawn cradle]

fair enough

one last question. for resources (not fuel) is there an equivalent to the atmospheric convertor where you can get resources without having to build it on a resource site?

[amber atlas]

resources = fuel + elements, elements also have converters (and also a small tap to get some elements every day via an "Airdrop" action on the Nexus)

[dawn cradle]

sorry... elements then is my question

so yes, you can build converters which convert from other elements and also build some small amount of resources themselves

[amber atlas]

converters have both passive gathering, as well as allow to to convert 1 to another at a loss

yes

[weary swan]

A long time based on what I’ve been reading …. I think u should not buy land if u think you’ll make ROI fast, it’s more about the gaming experience and the blueprints

[blissful storm]

yeah, that's what I thought so 🙂

[small star]

This

[little moon]

Any idea what the loss rate might be? And is the loss just burned or is it collected by the DAO somehow as profits?

[crystal temple]

Yet that won't stop the hype. A lot of people are going to disappointed by a really bad roi after they overpay. If you're looking for roi I think investing in ilv may be better. Time will tell.

[jaunty belfry]

jesus christ lol thats pricey. do we know supply for land?

[sharp elk]

Depends what you think of as a 'bad' ROI. In normal terms a 5% annual ROI wouldn't be considered bad at all. Of course in crypto all the moonbois want 1000% minimum.

I guess you'd want at least 20% ROI to try to keep pace with inflation.

[crystal temple]

lol let's hope that's not true. But if governments keep printing $ we will see it.

[little moon]

doesnt axie have like a 0 percent ROI on land

[merry sand]

How much land do you think I might be able to get for 10 sILV?

Im wondering whether I buy more sILV or stake more

[gaunt slate]

Stake, claim sILV, keep accumulating reward after land sale....profit? NFA

[crystal temple]

That is going to be the question of the day until they announce the price. Then we'll spend the rest of the time left guessing if it will all sell at the top of the auction. Honestly, I have heard every price imaginable.

[crystal temple]

Not a bad plan. Unless you get priced out of land and then you have a bunch of silv thats worth 40% less than ilv.

[hollow sequoia]

Do you guys think getting a land is a wise decision? Will it be "that" beneficial/profitable?

[merry sand]

I currently have around 6.5 sILV but want to make sure I don’t get priced out

[gaunt slate]

HODL til game launch, spend it playing the game, sell NFTs for profit. NFA lol

[crystal temple]

Interesting. That may work as well. I think that for pure return on investment, ILV may be better. revdis and staking at 2x during vesting period. Plus price gains in ilv token. So many choices. None of them bad. NFA DYOR 🙂

[fallow igloo]

SILV=ILV in price. Rn you can buy sILV at 40% value on uniswap but the sILV is still the same price as ILV

[vivid cipher]

Land is for use in the game. If you WANT to play the game and like the idea of owning your ingame assets then buying land is the way to go. Sure there is opportunity to earn. And the NFT will have a value. But it’s all about being able to choose your level of investment in the game #🎮〕illuvium-zero and if you ever choose to you can hope to have at least some return on the investment.

[crystal temple]

Yes the same price in game. Outside of game is a different matter. My point was how much in game currency do you really want to have? Buy nft's, perhaps. To each their own.

[onyx rampart]

Nobody knows yet. the DAO will be discussing on the pricing of some NFTs on their upcoming meeting. Check the summary update of the DAO Meeting.

[south belfry]

oh boy made some niceeee land money from nfts

[little moon]

will the 5-10% distribution for land owners be paid in ILV or ETH?

[sharp elk]

Axie has a promise of a high ROI on land when their main game is released, but nobody knows what that ROI will be. However remember when people got their Axie lands they were dirt cheap, so it didn’t really matter that they was no concrete information. This will be different now.

[coarse ledge]

This. I believe their highest tier land plot sold for 1 ETH back then, which was equivalent to around $100 USD.

With the current price speculation of lands in IZ (which is astronomically high), I hope landowners should have almost similar (if not the same) ROI with those who staked their ILV.

[lapis gulch]

It's possible the price drops during the auction, but that's just dreaming. People will just throw money at it from the get go.

My huge speculation is that during the land sale sILV price will be greater than ILV price, because some people will sell out ILV to get ETH for land. And if sILV is cheaper than ILV, people will get sILV to increase purchasing power.

[ivory bough]

many have bought discounted sILV that hold the same value of ILV, so...I'd say they will buy 😄

(lol I think I just confirmed what you said)

[lapis gulch]

If this speculation turns true you can buy ILV at sILV current price. Which a s huge discount.

[formal bluff]

do you guys think all the 100k plots of land will be sold by the end of 2022?

[lapis gulch]

I hope they don't wait like axie about land.

[ivory bough]

lad sale on other platforms has been massive. 100k land is literally nothing as many ppl will buy more than one.

[lapis gulch]

You also have to keep in mind that if they sell land 2 years from now at 100x prices, those will get back to stakers 🙂

So it's a win/win you either get reasonable priced land or you get juicy steaks 🙂

[ivory vine]

Was there any news on the research docs yet that I might have overlooked?

[formal bluff]

But they will still be selling them in batches right? like this one with 20k plots

[ivory bough]

yeah so the chance that they get scooped up are even higher. By the next land sale ppl might have more ETH or sILV

[lapis gulch]

Are there any news if auctions info will be out before it starts? Like how many L2 land prots and start price etc.

[vocal pasture]

If I understand correctly, if illuvium is set on immutable X there will be no gás fees. The only gas fee will be to transfer eth to IMX from ETH main and withdraw. However, staking and land are not (yet?) in imx, so general ethereum fees apply. Is that it?

[cosmic aspen]

yes, and there will be an FAQ about what the lands are/what they do released a week prior

[cosmic aspen]

correct

[vocal pasture]

Any estimation on the migration to imx?

[formal bluff]

So we should pay a high gas fee to get a fast transaction and be able to win an auction? I'm guessing if you wanna pay a low gas fee, other people might win that plot

[cosmic aspen]

none at the moment

[cosmic aspen]

it depends on the number of plots up for sale at a time which will determine how many eyes could be on a particular plot.

additionally, since it's a dutch auction, not everyone will have the same price point in their head at which they will buy the plot. so if you are willing to pay the highest price, then you wouldnt need fast gas at all.

[little moon]

Hi everyone, I am new on this project ( found it one week ago and have been following closely since ) I plan on buying lands ( T2 or T3 if I can ), can you guys explain me what I need to do to buy sILV. sILV will hold the same value at the Dutch auction so like you all said, huge discount. I also wonder if someone has more details on how many of each Type land there will be ( except for T5 only 7 )

If what read was true : some land producing rare ressources will more sought after even if they are lower tier T

[crisp blaze]

atm, most liquidity can be found on uniswap

[thorn moon]

Hi friend!
You can find sILV on Uniswap, just get the sILV token ID, should be pinned in the token section. You can plug that into uniswap and it’ll bring up their sILV pool As for an exact answer on amount of lands per tier, still speculative, but I think someone here probably has a good guesstimate

[crisp blaze]

this is the current price

[little moon]

Woaw so low. What do you use to swap brother? 🙂