#šŸŽ®ć€•illuvium-zero

1 messages Ā· Page 191 of 1

wind briar
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Sound's great, hope we can find an attractive way to sell the land

mortal merlin
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Without bots yea

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And gas war

wind briar
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I am not sure how kieran is worried sILV price will drop if we allowed sILV to be used to purchase.

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o wait i see it

limber berry
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As long as it's sILV and ETH I'm cool with it. Hopefully not just sILV because then I'd have to start claiming some šŸ˜‚

wind briar
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But maybe an auction for the higher end lands will discourage whales from selling sILV for cheap

north minnow
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Wow. Much detail šŸ˜

limber berry
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@static raptor
You said it would have to be auctioned to be fair?
So you mean like each land individually listed and sold to the highest bidder right?

north minnow
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Gonna take some time to understand but nice!!

wind briar
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I got no clue how to go about land sale peeposhrug

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Maybe the delphi team can help us out

north minnow
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There will be a land sale? šŸ˜…

limber berry
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Lol same. Just trying to figure out how much money I need to try and save šŸ¤£

limber berry
north minnow
limber berry
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If i had that kind of money I would. I am but smol

wind briar
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I can imagine like a bid of 10,000 sILV going for one ultra-rare ILV land

north minnow
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I am smol also but will be prepared

mortal merlin
wind briar
limber berry
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I've never been apart of one but I've heard the stories :P

mortal merlin
noble quest
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How we going with the reading materials?

wind briar
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How to sell my car for ILV land so far

noble quest
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Ahahhahahah

limber berry
north minnow
noble quest
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I love you guys and girls

wind briar
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my tinder profile will now include ILV land owner

mortal merlin
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My opinion is : no need to sell lands until we are close to the release, which would be around december. So there is no rush and it leaves plenty of time for solutions

north minnow
mortal merlin
cinder crest
ivory vine
mortal merlin
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Or he is taking a midnight shit

cinder crest
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idk which direction, I don't use tinder. The good swipe I gues.

cinder crest
wind briar
cinder crest
wind briar
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So how to fast forward to december

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anyone got any ideas

cinder crest
north minnow
mortal merlin
noble quest
north minnow
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Feel like the Illuvium team is working with something a bit more productive

wind briar
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But then the top tier lands wont be 10k sILV

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it will be 100k sILV

mortal merlin
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Not sure about sILV tho

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Hahaha

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Doesnt bring any revenue which is the goal of the land sale in some part

wind briar
silk finch
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When is the land sale

wind briar
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less ILV more % i own

mortal merlin
mortal merlin
wind briar
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Homie joined the discord and immediately asked when land sale

silk finch
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Sorry just joined and looks like a AAA axie

limber berry
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Land sale is still a maybe

silk finch
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Been interested after finding out about it

limber berry
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Being voted on *soon

wind briar
mortal merlin
limber berry
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Let the hype flow through you

mortal merlin
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We are still at the idea level

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Lands need to be created and game tested anyway before sales

north minnow
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I for one am so damn impressed with the progress from you guys. I don't own any tokens and in upset I couldn't buy a few weeks ago due to personal circumstances however I have a true belief in you guys and what you are building. This will be the next diamond Nft play2earn game

subtle edge
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hahahah

little moon
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This mini game sounds dope. Great idea

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Impressed with the thorough document as well. Hot dawg! Legitimate brains in this space.

static raptor
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Eth from land sale goes to revdivs?

limber berry
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Believe that's what they said yeah.
It was how they made me feel better when I was worrying about whales buying all the land.

It's fine because I get money from their spending. via my stake/revdis..... šŸ¤·ā€ā™‚ļø

I still want the land tho šŸ˜‚

spare frigate
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where is mini-game?

wind briar
real urchin
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Hectic!!.

spare frigate
static raptor
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yeah so i like an auction for each land, on imx you could just list them all for sale, bots cant do shit

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and everything sells for its fair value

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those that want it most, get it

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rev divs get highest payout, all is good in the world

wind briar
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sILV involved ?

static raptor
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im not sure which is best tbh

wind briar
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a one time 50mil sale is nice

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but what if you could earn a larger % of the network by burning the ILV from the whales

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who b buying the big stuff

static raptor
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could allow sILV or not

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prices would probably be higher if you allow sILV

wind briar
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would it ?

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think the sale will attract ALOT of speculators

static raptor
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without a doubt

wind briar
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not just the whales here

static raptor
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yeah its just adding a bunch more funds that can be spent though, which would result in higher prices

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maybe only 10-20% higher though, hard to say

light mist
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Whereā€™s the game design document lol

static raptor
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would be good for those of us with 100% of our networth's staked in ilv farms

light mist
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Just saw announcement

static raptor
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check pins

wind briar
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less ILV around

static raptor
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yeah its not a bad thing

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but also no revdivs

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or much less

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im torn on it

wind briar
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meh its just a one time sale how much can you expect from it

static raptor
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id guess 1000eth?

wind briar
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what would a 10m sale do to revdivs

static raptor
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yeah but some will be in eth either way, so there will be revdivs

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but generally revdivs are gonna be low for the whole time staking is available

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cause its always gonna be cheaper to buy and use sILV

light mist
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Read the first page and it sounds like a sick idea

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Will take a closer look tonight

static raptor
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until the point at which $ spent in game >>> YF rewards

solar swallow
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What if best lands would be not for sell but they would be owned by top10 arena players?

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And that would refresh every week or sth

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And those lands would "remember" what players had built on them if they owned them before

static raptor
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i dont like it

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could reserve some for prizes though

solar swallow
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Maybe those could be from different pool even with some other resource that would be available only on those

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This way it could be added later on too

fast aspen
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So there will be land on this game too

solar swallow
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Only mini game

static raptor
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maybe one day will be main game integration

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i like real ownership, would much rather prizes you can win and keep, vs get to hold it for a week

solar swallow
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Ye ofc, I didn't meant all the lands should be like that for sure

mortal merlin
solar swallow
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Just idea do You could connect games with out really big impact

static raptor
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revdivs are on imx?

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i thought everything revdivs was on layer1

mortal merlin
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Revdis from the main game will flow through IMX yes

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And will end up on L1 to buy from market

static raptor
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but land sale on L1 could still pay out revdivs (which are paid on L1)

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IMX should be ready though.

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you can already mint/sell nfts there

mortal merlin
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We get revdis on every trade of those lands also

wind briar
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Would we?

limber berry
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Fancy

wind briar
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In my mind itā€™s short sighted to think revdivs > sILV use

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But I canā€™t formulate it

static raptor
wind briar
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But who knows maybe Iā€™m literally thinking of the moon and my sight is too far out

fallow oxide
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I've only read the first page of that .pdf so far as i don't have the time right now. (or at least the time to take it in)
Though this is a an actual picture of me rn

pepestiffy.png
grizzled helm
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@bitter glade just finished reading the full GDD. I skimmed it earlier. I am extremely impressed and the dots are starting to connect.

grand mist
grizzled helm
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sorry

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I will find it

grand mist
molten dagger
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It's pinned in the channel

grizzled helm
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Go to here

bitter glade
grand mist
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got it thank you

grizzled helm
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I have some ideas and I think alot of other people do!

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I love the research ideas and expansion

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theres so many aspects of gametheory and economic drivers

bitter glade
grizzled helm
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Im talking when you get some rest

bitter glade
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Sure. Does everyone like the names? If you do, they were my idea. If you donā€™t, blame @true chasm

grizzled helm
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I think there were a couple that I was confused on but maybe once I understand the background/lore it will make sense

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I liked alot tho

elder warren
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This is what i hoped Earth2 would be lol I like it

grizzled helm
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we will get alot of ppl from their discord

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:))

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huge following

elder warren
grizzled helm
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too

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thinking its the metaverse

fallow oxide
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Hey gangsta's, does anyone have dates that the Pre-Seed and Seed sale went live? The white paper states Dec 2020 and Jan 2021. Though i'm looking for exact dates it went live and the Dates it was closed.

bitter glade
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There arenā€™t exact dates.

grizzled helm
true chasm
grizzled helm
stone root
grizzled helm
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Yes 100%

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Completely agree

bitter glade
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Iā€™m not in favour of fixed price but am in favour of staggered release.

But I am not on the council so I donā€™t matter.

amber atlas
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@sweet mountain "Also, sets some very clear floor prices for each plot. auctions don't do that" -> Can you clarify this? Auctions can have a visible or invisible reserve right

bitter glade
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I think they mean floor as in ā€œoriginal sale priceā€

hollow rose
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Over here

grizzled helm
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ya

hollow rose
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Thanks

amber atlas
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personally I like fixed price for the base land tiers, but at some point the best/highest lands have auctions

hollow rose
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Hahahahha

blissful storm
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F1 Delta Time did auction their top tier "land" and did a staggered release at a fixed priced for the other tiers. It makes everyone happy: whales that want to splash for that unique land and project supporters/players who can buy a less rare land piece.

grizzled helm
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this

amber atlas
hollow rose
blissful storm
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The lowest land price was around $2,000

bitter glade
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If we do a fixed price then who gets it?

amber atlas
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me?

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šŸ˜›

bitter glade
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Ok

grizzled helm
blissful storm
bitter glade
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So letā€™s say we have 10 plots. And we put a price of $10.

amber atlas
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I think I saw a land sale with some mechanisms to prevent faster clicker/best internet connections getting it

blissful storm
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everyone interested was able to get some

bitter glade
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But letā€™s say 20 people want it.

amber atlas
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let me go trawl my internet history

bitter glade
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Do we randomise it?

blissful storm
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if you think there will be much more demand than plots we could allow only 1 plot per transaction

grizzled helm
amber atlas
bitter glade
grizzled helm
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I am in Due Diligence for a reason XD

amber atlas
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Aaron will go and create a model to predict the exact number of lands required for each price point, and then weight it to create the optimal amount of demand

real urchin
blissful storm
bitter glade
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I prefer to come up with solutions in a black box first. Then compare to others. Because it means you tackle the problem from diff angles

grizzled helm
static raptor
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yeah agree with that approach, i think there is a problem with many people here wanting cheap land.

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i want the land to be sold at a price where it cant be immediately flipped for a profit

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and that way people who value it most will get it

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i think its basically impossible to do that with fixed prices, you need an auction mechanism

hollow rose
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Could also do what Upland did. Charge for packs. That cost certain amount. And u fluke the rare lands or u just get common lands.

static raptor
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maybe thats not what you guys want though, maybe giving ilv holders cheap land is the goal? could just give it out for free too

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could packs contain nothing?

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otherwise they would be very exp if the worst you could get was a cheap land

real urchin
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I want people buying the land... who are interested in the land and the game and the future of the whole universe.

Not really people looking to immediately flip for profit... more long term holders that are invested will know the profit comes later.

static raptor
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yeah you only really get that with an auction, with any fixed price you either dont sell all the land cause you priced it too high, or you sell it all and are 10x over subscribed and its mostly flippers

bitter glade
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Thatā€™s my concern.

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I am beholden to the Dao. I would like to buy land too but realistically I donā€™t think I would be able to afford it. And thatā€™s ok with me.

static raptor
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yeah im happy to miss out if others are paying more than im willing to

bitter glade
grizzled helm
hollow rose
bitter glade
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If I miss out because whales put 8 squizzilion into it, noice.

grizzled helm
bitter glade
grizzled helm
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"Land Sells for 500 ETH in Illuvium" is a good headline

static raptor
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@bitter glade what are your thoughts on eth only or allowing sILV?

wind briar
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Hmmmmm tough, I don't agree with this sentiment. Thinking that it just ends being a game for percent of people is good ?

grizzled helm
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I think we are forgetting about the F2P component

bitter glade
grizzled helm
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as long as that is strong

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people will play

wind briar
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but not owning any land

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what a vibe

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Think a balance can be done though...

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low quality lands

amber atlas
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I mean we can always just have a lot of low tier land ... maybe for low tier land: fixed price + pre-registration + some buffer is enough to ensure that everyone who wants some can get some

real urchin
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I want active.. interested.. invested members to get it for a good/decent price.

It's all a very hard.. fine balancing line/act/trial.

I believe arrons big brain can come up with some clever mechanics to help solve "some" of the issues that will arise.... maybe.

amber atlas
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(of course setting the buffer is tricky)

bitter glade
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Keep in mind the ILV token holders get 100% of the land sale.

They only get 5% of the on sale.

static raptor
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i think the final auction price being what everyone pays is good

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so we still have that base price to go off, its just that its variable

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ie. all mystic lands sell for same price

bitter glade
amber atlas
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šŸ˜›

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in any case I need to bow out and get some work done, I'm sure Aaron will keep me updated, ciao folks

heady marten
static raptor
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if we are selling land below fair value, lets sell some illuvials below fair value too, ill scoop them up

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fwiw i find this really interesting, the balance between ilv holders who want the biggest sale/best for the game and users/community which wants a good deal rather than a free market

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i think a lot of governance decisions will be like this

heady marten
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Well current supporters should get a small portion so they dont get botted out

static raptor
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again, there wont be any bots

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outpriced sure, not bots

heady marten
static raptor
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cause its not a race

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fixed price attracts bots, auction attracts users

heady marten
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Okay. Is it announced

bitter glade
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The math doesnā€™t lie. If people get a good deal, then some people miss out. And the Dao misses out. If people get a bad deal, then it negatively affects the project long term.

A market deal to me is the only solution (for majority of land sold)

static raptor
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how ami

real urchin
static raptor
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how do bots beat real users without paying a higher price @sweet mountain ?

hollow rose
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Man. Seems like i caused an issue about land price.

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I think we just wait for more news to come.

real urchin
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There will be people unhappy on both sides.

Cant please everyone all the time.

static raptor
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err youre wrong?

hollow rose
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Just wait closer to sale guys

static raptor
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and havent explained anything

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bots win races

bitter glade
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To be honest I still donā€™t get it @sweet mountain

cinder crest
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A person could also have a strike price to bid and just sit at the computer I donā€™t think a bot would change that

hollow rose
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We wait for more infk

real urchin
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But all in all.

Hells yeah.. majorly excited for the mini game thingy

Woop woop.

hollow rose
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Info

bitter glade
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What does strike price mean for destroying an auction.

cinder crest
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I set a bot to bid until $1 or I can do it myself in an auction

hollow rose
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Then we voice our concern

cinder crest
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Well I mean I could do it just as much as a bot

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I guess they could at the very last second

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But I had the idea of captcha bids lol

static raptor
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i dont get it at all

bitter glade
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Matt is countering the idea of strike price.

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Which is why Iā€™m asking for clarification.

cinder crest
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I think the one benefit of bots is they could bid on a lot of lands at once at the last second. But we could have some sort of protection on that

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Timer, captcha, some other idea

static raptor
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i mean why are they cheap at the last second?

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or they arent, and the bot owner is just willing to pay more

cinder crest
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Not cheap, just saying a bot could bid faster than a person. Nothing about price

static raptor
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yeah i mean you should pay more

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auto extending auctions are good obv though

cinder crest
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Oh true

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Smart guy forgot about that

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If you do that then you donā€™t have to worry about a bot bidding at the last second. Theyā€™d be the same whale with or without the bot

bitter glade
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As far as I know bots are good at a lot of things but not an advantage in an auction.

static raptor
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isnt that most auctions?

cinder crest
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I was thinking of it like wow. You bid on an item in the last x time it extends to a certain Point. Eg bid in last minute and it extends to 30 mins

bitter glade
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Ami, if the price is fixed how do we choose who gets it if many people bid?

static raptor
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how does declining price get botted?

bitter glade
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But there are limited amounts, right?

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So then it becomes who buys faster?

static raptor
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they can buy at a price that noone else wanted to buy yet? seems pretty fair to me

bitter glade
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Or whitelisted?

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Letā€™s say a plot comes up. You and I both want it. Who gets it. The faster one or the whitelisted one?

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Or some other idea.

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Fixed.

static raptor
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lol.

bitter glade
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But there is only 1

cinder crest
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For fixed if we are talking about a whale with a bot couldnā€™t they just buy them all

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And 500 gwei that b

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Fixed price unlimited supply?

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Oh okay

bitter glade
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So wait a sec.

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Letā€™s say there are 100 plots. And 101 people want them.

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The fastest 100 get them yeah?

cinder crest
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Then 1 with the bot gets lol

bitter glade
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Ok so that system sounds perfect for bots.

static raptor
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an auction šŸ™‚

cinder crest
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I think thatā€™s auction

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But with that said letā€™s keep thinking and talking maybe thereā€™s a third option

bitter glade
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Or a reverse auction.

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Like the balancer sale.

fallow oxide
wind briar
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on land? sounds tough

blissful storm
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I do not mind auction but I do have a genuine question about this. Let's say there are 100 common plots and we auction them all at the same time, right?

static raptor
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Ami's problem seems to be that a bot could wait for a fair price then buy a large % of supply and others who are waiting would miss out.

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but to me that seems fair still

bitter glade
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You said there were fixed price sales that had no bots. What did they use? Whitelist? Iā€™m struggling to come up with other options.

blissful storm
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what if I only want 1 plot but because I don't want to miss out I bid on 2 or 3 and end up winning them all?

static raptor
#

declining price auction works for that

bitter glade
fallow oxide
#

Captcha system that has do be done every couple of minutes?

cinder crest
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Lol

cinder crest
fallow oxide
bitter glade
real urchin
#

Pre registered.. semi paid.. randomized sale.

Start with highest teir first.. 500 people pay the deposit and the 100 names are drawn.

The other 400 then get entered into the next lower down teir sale release maybe.. and so on.

Possibly several sales in this style.. over time.

blissful storm
static raptor
#

yeah that works

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meebits style

bitter glade
grizzled helm
timid sorrel
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Way behind, is there a pinned message talking details about this land sale?

static raptor
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i think ive already mentioned but to reiterate, noone should want to buy a huge % of the land cause so much of the value of the land comes with potential integration with the main game, which is subject to ilv governance, if a bot bought all the land for example its less likely to be used in the main game, and will be worth less than if it was widely distributed

bitter glade
fallow oxide
bitter glade
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Token unlock date is different to pre seed date.

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The unlock date started at token genesis in March.

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Effectively pre seed had a longer lock up than 2 years.

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The date should be in the white paper.

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Late March I believe.

static raptor
fallow oxide
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Yea i got the hint fellas, cheers

grizzled helm
wind briar
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Does the mini-game offer more revenue if more players own the land?

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or is most of the revenue from the land sale

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revenue I mean to ILV stakers

grizzled helm
static raptor
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from reading the game doc i dont think it adds any ongoing revenue to the game other than if people spend eth to speed up their minigame actions

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which would go to revdivs i guess

hollow rose
wind briar
hollow rose
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we wait for closer til land release

cinder crest
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Is there a good site that has a history of past land sales and how much money they raised? Iā€™d be curious about details on cost and quantity as well.

hollow rose
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I think @noble quest and the team will have a brilliant idea.

wind briar
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In my mind, if the game revenue is mainly from land sale I am not a fan.

static raptor
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of it existing?

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who's to say it wouldnt be used for more later

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that would be up to governance

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i dont think you can expect to create only a minigame that puts heaps of eth into revdivs

hollow rose
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We wait guys. Just Chill about the land sale and flippers and bots.

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I know i started this in General. Sorry.

fallow oxide
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Haha ok, give me 30 mins to read this shitstorm that happened in here regarding the minigame stuff šŸ˜®

fallow oxide
wind briar
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We donā€™t chill and wait for decisions, we make them

fallow oxide
amber atlas
mortal merlin
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See guys?

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Its polarizing pepe_laugh

pseudo fiber
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personally im just getting more hyped

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gotta buy more ILV over the weekend

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šŸ˜†

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fan of the idea for what its worth

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and not super concerned about flippers personally, interest in flipping = interest in your ecosystem, shouldn't be discouraging people from flipping land/investments

frozen tapir
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I like the idea of auction and i think its the best way for for the land sale. its transparent and competitive helps for true price discovery. Lets say 10 land sale, top 10 bidders will get the lands.

pseudo fiber
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would it be a blind auction? or you see what the highest bids are at any point

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also, i think most other games do it via a lottery right?

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personally i dont like the lottery system, but just an observation

frozen tapir
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i have a concern with the landsale with regards to revdis. Can someone snipe revdis knowing that there is a huge amount of revdis. I mean some could temporarily stake flexible to get the revdis.

static raptor
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id imagine it would be done in chunks rather than millions at a time

pseudo fiber
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are the mechanics for the revdis actually already in place?

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would be interesting to know more specifics if so

static raptor
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youre right though, worth doing a calc to make sure its not profitable to buy ilv, stake flexible, revdivs distributed, unstake, sell.

frozen tapir
static raptor
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the cost of this attack would be 0.6% cause of sushi fees both ways, so price movement in the sushi pool + revdivs would have to be less than 0.6% of the total value in the pool

pseudo fiber
static raptor
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fwiw with current pool size, to stop getting frontrun you can do approx 19 eth at a time

pseudo fiber
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also i think it's just normal market forces, just like how some people buy bank stocks for dividends right before the ex-div date

static raptor
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for the revdivs buying ilv

frozen tapir
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tbh i dont care if whales get the all the lands, Im happy with revdis it will bring

desert trout
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Don't know what's going on exactly but we could always put a time weighted distribution up for voting to give long term stakers a greater percentage of revdis to disincentivize people popping in and out for divs. Just one possibility

static raptor
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yeah its already like that, weighted up to 2.0 for staking

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if you flexi stake you just get 1x weight

desert trout
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The rev dis is?

static raptor
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yep

desert trout
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Ahh ok, in that case carry on xD

static raptor
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if you lock you get more revdivs

desert trout
#

Rev dis only goes to stakers too right? I can't remember rn or if it was just holding ilv

pseudo fiber
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stakers only i believe

desert trout
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If it goes to pure holders too then the snapshot could be used and require minimum age of like a week held to receive

#

Same for stakers actually too

static raptor
#

they just need to make the individual distributions small and its fine

#

its pretty easy to calculate what $ amount is acceptable

#

it might be multiple distributions per day, but thats fine

desert trout
#

Yeah drip over a week or so like some other platforms do

static raptor
#

ive seen the team is aware of this too, wont be an issue imo

pseudo fiber
#

yeah again guys, i understand the desire to protect long term holders and all that, but i don't think we should be adding in all these artificial barriers to dissuade speculators. if you make it into the mainstream, this sort of behavior is normal and healthy. i think it would make more sense to grow the pie rather than spend all this energy making sure people don't run away with the crumbs if that makes any sense

#

the worst thing you could do as a project is make it seem like an old boys club, where if you were in at the start you're golden, then everyone else is a second class citizen

desert trout
#

I have some bad memories of dumpage due to people gaming the system buying for divs snapshot and then running otw not really worried. Those projects were garbage anyways though and had no real product unlike here

pseudo fiber
#

yeah, fair enough. happens for bank stocks with way higher market cap as well

mortal merlin
#

Im not worried about it

dire pier
#

Im with joe 100% here, just spent 20 min scrolling thru this

#

Re: distribute lands at cheap price to active members vs auction/keep out bots/unfortunately exclude members due to price

#

Is he on the council? I know its rahlord,bigdick, and ami

static raptor
#

nah just stealing that pink name

dire pier
#

Also really liked the point about auction near release

#

Dec 5 will keep those first $1 ilv guys from dumping imo

#

Assuming thats within 2 weeks of their first unlock

mortal merlin
#

Yea the land sale can happen like the day before. No need to rush it

#

Their first unlock is end of march 2022

#

12 months after TGE

static raptor
#

yeah i think thats wrong, no new tokens

#

march 22

#

land sale should be oct/nov

dire pier
#

Token unlock different from preseed date, got it

mortal merlin
#

Yep

#

The timer started at TGE

limber berry
#

Just yeet them all into a coliseum and let people battle to the death. last one standing gets all the land

mortal merlin
#

Best idea so far

#

I like my odds

bitter glade
bitter glade
pseudo fiber
bitter glade
bitter glade
#

And they will be hidden from bots

pseudo fiber
#

thats great to hear, thanks

static raptor
#

anyone who buys ilv is frontrunning

wind briar
#

The free2play sounds like my brother giving me a broken controller while he plays the real game

#

Iā€™m getting PTSD

#

Can we just do more very very low end plots

grizzled helm
bitter glade
#

Also I think people underestimate the value these games can provide. In 15 mins we just got 3 of the buildings done. And to give them skins would take another 23 seconds.

grizzled helm
#

personally, I think as long as the upper tier ones are extremely rare then its fine

grizzled helm
bitter glade
#

I guarantee you I will spend money on building skins.

#

Just to make my city pretty.

#

That would be in the free version too.

wind briar
bitter glade
wind briar
#

@little moon

bitter glade
#

Phocis.

limber berry
bitter glade
#

Keep in mind the sale goes only to the vault, which then gets distributed out to the token holders.

#

It looks like the way Axie did it was so sell an huge amount of plots. That's definitely an option.

#

Others have shown me some sales where the large majority of land (common, etc) has been fixed price and then the rare stuff gets auctioned. While also saving some rare stuff for lottery. That seems like a pretty good solution to me.

#

Hopefully I've made it clear that I'm open to anything, and also that I don't decide in the end.

#

As for what the right direction is, I don't think anyone knows that really.

noble quest
#

Okay, so the way auctions work, is by price discovery. They start at a price, and then interested buyers bid on it until they believe it hits their ceiling of what is fair value currently. Then the game grows to millions of players, and that ceiling is raised by whatever the new fair market value is.

How is that not the most fair way to determine price?

#

So what is your issue? That you think they won't go up in value from genesis sale?

#

I read that, none of it makes sense

#

Arguing that something shouldnt be fairly valued is honestly insanity. You want us to pick arbitrary prices?

static raptor
#

im okay with land values not going up heaps immediately after the land sale... seems optimal

noble quest
#

We can literally make an auction for all interested people. It is literally the way to find true price valuation. Am I missing something here?

#

It won't be as accurate as an auction

#

Literally not possible

#

And if your argument is "let the people make money". They will... through vault distributions. What if we under price the fuck out of them? Then stakers miss out on revenue... that could have been solved, by you know, a tried and tested method that is centuries old and is designed to work out the exact amount a person is willing to pay for something...

static raptor
#

i think they can be fairly priced through an auction mechanism and still appreciate in value enough for it to be worthwhile

#

free land tier and governance should decide on how many there are

#

so noone is priced out

noble quest
#

We need to work out what the optimal number of plots are, and that will be decided by the council

static raptor
#

i think these are important questions even if you do the auction route

noble quest
#

I mean, the sale mechanism too, I just doubt the council would vote for arbitrary land prices, vs fair auctions...

static raptor
#

who knows, thats why we discuss though

noble quest
#

I say arbitrary because there are so many variables that your "calculation" wouldn't be accurate

#

I'm cool with that

#

We can decide that later

static raptor
#

its mainly the first tier to get right

noble quest
#

But, the longer we wait, the worse it is for your argument of land appreciating

mortal merlin
#

I like the idea of normie lands being fixed and rare and above is auctionned. So everyone feels like they got what they wanted and we get revdis also :)

static raptor
#

the other ones dont matter that much

haughty yarrow
#

Ember Sword sold land and it was a cluster. they sold like 40,000 pieces eventually, but so many ppl lost out cause of tech issues. Now they are doing it again and they set the prices and you have to write them a letter explaining why you want it and how you'd use it.

So everyone is writing BS in their letters, lol.

noble quest
#

The more stuff we leak, the higher the land prices will go

static raptor
#

you could do normie lands at 0.05 eth and have an unlimited supply

#

so its self balancing that way

#

or whatever affordable price you like

mortal merlin
#

We still need to cap it tho

static raptor
#

idk if you do

mortal merlin
#

But at least people could buy it from secondary market for still cheap

#

Cause there is more

#

Just trowing ideas

haughty yarrow
#

But ppl don't really sell cheap on secondary if they can help it.

brisk gull
#

Maybe unlimited, but only during the sale. So they still increase in value after. (For tier 1)

static raptor
#

yeah

mortal merlin
#

Sure

static raptor
#

still need to think on pricing for it tho

mortal merlin
#

Capped after the sale is done

#

Yea sure, closer to launch date tho

grizzled helm
mortal merlin
#

Would alleviate crazy gas war also

static raptor
#

would it?

mortal merlin
#

Sure, you are sure to get one during the sale

grizzled helm
#

Gas war is inevitable

static raptor
#

also i think all of this can be done on imx

grizzled helm
static raptor
#

you can literally just mint all the nfts

#

and sell them

mortal merlin
#

Idk why Aaron said it wouldnt tho

#

Cant remember

mortal merlin
grizzled helm
#

True true

static raptor
#

id suggest for higher tier auctions, have different end times, people can see what price others went for

#

makes it more like the LBP

grizzled helm
wind briar
#

You donā€™t want uncapped land

static raptor
#

uncapped tier 1 is fine

wind briar
#

Virtual tier 0

grizzled helm
#

I think higher tier land shouldnt have a cap, I think it will be good marketing if we have land selling for 500 ETH +

wind briar
#

Is the uncapped

wind briar
dreamy patio
static raptor
#

yeah idk, depends how much value you can get in the main game from 1 tier 1 land

mortal merlin
#

We kinda need caps to keep the revenue through land interesting tho

grizzled helm
static raptor
#

it might be botable

wind briar
#

I think for the low tier just have 2x of current player base (discord user)

mortal merlin
#

Exactly

grizzled helm
#

Ppl have alot of $

mortal merlin
#

Bots will destroy it if it is uncapped (not the sale, the in game revenu)

static raptor
#

would they though, depends on pricing surely

dreamy patio
#

If you seriously can't stop yourself at 500 ETH and you need to get a loan you have bigger problems than getting ILV land lmao

noble quest
cinder crest
#

I like uncapped, it will be less profit likely but I like including as many people as possible

static raptor
#

bots are way more incentivised in a capped sale

grizzled helm
#

Lmao

cinder crest
#

exactly. Capped + cheap = bot city

grizzled helm
static raptor
#

its kinda two different bots, flipping bots and if someone makes minigame bots to profit in the main game

mortal merlin
static raptor
#

unlimited kills flipping bots

mortal merlin
#

Lets be precise haha

static raptor
#

and either way minigame bots are an issue

wind briar
#

Uncapped should provide zero rev

#

Capped should

#

But cap should be enough to player base

mortal merlin
#

You still paid for it

static raptor
#

everyone with such strong opinions

mortal merlin
#

Even if it us uncapped during the sale

brisk gull
#

If you pay for it, you expect rev

wind briar
#

Purple squirrel is what Iā€™m looking for

static raptor
#

cap it and auction is fine, uncapped fixed price is fine

grizzled helm
mortal merlin
#

Sure

#

Im not really worried

#

As player base will likely explose after the land sale anyway

#

So they will go up in value probably

cinder crest
#

jokes on the mods when we hit 100k members

mortal merlin
#

I see the value in playing with it anyway

#

Not reselling it

static raptor
#

its something to consider with timing of the land sale

limber berry
#

I'll get my land one way or another šŸ˜œ

grizzled helm
brisk gull
#

Some people may want to buy one in each region, so supply needs to be quite high.

grizzled helm
#

so idk if that is that big of an issue IMO

frozen tapir
#

if uncapped, someone could just make multiple accounts and play it in immulator like in axies makes more supply less value.

brisk gull
grizzled helm
static raptor
grizzled helm
#

Maybe Accounts for purchase can be created in advance of a landsale?

static raptor
#

bots like capped more šŸ˜„

wind briar
static raptor
#

they can be first to buy and still buy lots and the price will go up

#

vs unlimited where noone should expect price to go up without real game growth

wind briar
#

Thatā€™s the land sale, not worried about that

grizzled helm
#

Ya its a tough issue relating to fake accounts, because even with Topshot, they limited to one per user but still had multiple account issues

#

and bots

wind briar
#

Unlimited attracts ppl to bot millions of accounts to play the game and produce the units

grizzled helm
#

one way you can get around bots is a random line, where the drop opens and can be staggered then your place in line is completely random. I think this is working for topshot but not sure.

static raptor
#

they have to pay heaps of eth to do that? and then we can just governance vote to reduce reliance on minigame

#

sounds good to me, they are welcome to it

mortal merlin
#

And as we said

#

Its uncapped only during the sale

#

Once the sale is over, no more revenue generating lands

#

But its ideas anyway

#

We discuss

#

Around a drink

#

I knew Id summon matt

cinder crest
#

YOU SAID DRINK

mortal merlin
#

He couldnt resist

cinder crest
#

lol

mortal merlin
cinder crest
#

but what about an extremely small fee for moving NFTs out of the minigame. I'm not worried about multiscreeners but that could prevent bots from buying 1,000 land and botting on all of them

#

small enough where to someone playing to earn it doesnt matter

#

but will if you have 50 accounts

wind briar
#

I like uncapped during sale

grizzled helm
#

Or just low level

wind briar
#

Well low level

grizzled helm
#

Ya

#

Im in on that if we can prevent Botting

wind briar
#

Gotta make the whales happy as Aaron suggested

cinder crest
#

my gif was too mesmerizing I had to delete

static raptor
#

i dont mind uncapped during sale at all tiers tbh

cinder crest
#

What's the pros and cons of uncapping all tiers and doing fixed pricing?

#

I think either that or the mix is best IMO but I'm not the boss

static raptor
#

i think for lowest tier it makes sense, so everyone can get in and play to earn

#

for higher tiers i dont think its needed at all

#

but it would be interesting

#

like i wonder how many mystics get minted at 20eth/piece

cinder crest
#

It'd be less profit but more inclusive for sure

mortal merlin
#

One day.. one day i'll be able to whale on something

wind briar
#

The profit is everyone trying to flex their best land

mortal merlin
#

Flexing in the Illuvial holo building

grizzled helm
#

what if you have multiple Ques for the land, the low level land has multiple bot checks and unlimited cap similar to what top shot has. Its open for lets say 1 hour-X and then the upper tiers have caps but are limited in terms of purchases or something

static raptor
#

whitelists/terms of purchase are really hard to enforce well

#

so best is to either uncap or auction imo,

grizzled helm
#

On a non land sale topic, I was thinking about the GDD related to research and I think we could somehow have fossils or the illuvium equivalent that can be studied. Like an Illuviuals spirit trapped in something idk

#

It would tie into the research Idea which I love. Limited info release from devs, you have to explore deeper to understand the lore

mortal merlin
#

Noice

grizzled helm
slow cedar
#

Just caught up. I love the idea of unlimited sales for lowest tier in the initial sale, and auctions for anything higher.

Would it be possible to allow purchase of the unlimited land via the ILV staking page, so everyone staked is sure to get one of the lowest tier of they want it? Then have pools of each tier which get auctioned off too (not via staking page)

This way at least you can be sure that it's actually backers of the game getting the unlimited lands and helps mitigate bots slightly (although could introduce other issues)

grizzled helm
#

but ya it might be seen as unfair

slow cedar
#

Also, I don't think it's been clarified: which platforms would the game be developed for? I assumed it's a phone game on ios and android

sly leaf
#

How about PC?

grizzled helm
#

I think theym are aiming for android and IoS

slow cedar
grizzled helm
#

just do command F

#

or ctrl F

#

and see if it comes up

brisk gull
#

Yea think so, because they were talking about Google PlayStore release

grizzled helm
#

Got it

slow cedar
#

Thanks @grizzled helm, I hadn't even managed to find the document on my phone, lol

grizzled helm
slow cedar
#

My ability to use phones efficiently is comparable to that of a 90 year old

grizzled helm
#

Discord on phone is meh

#

PC is blessed

real urchin
#

I'm on phone most of the time.. Haha.

brisk gull
#

Same, can't have discord on my job's laptop.

slow cedar
grizzled helm
#

there would have to be incentive to lock

slow cedar
#

I guess in my mind the incentive is a cheaper buy in price - you're certain to get a land if you're more prepared to back long term, or you buy a non locked land via the auctions

sly leaf
slow cedar
#

But I'm just tossing out random thoughts atm, seeing if something can mitigate the worries listed over the past 10 hours

grizzled helm
real urchin
static raptor
#

nah all my land will be coastal

grizzled helm
amber atlas
grizzled helm
#

thanks Johnny!

amber atlas
#

we will probalby also look to do something like cosmetic building which is a holographic statue/projection of Illuvials you have managed to scan

grizzled helm
amber atlas
#

yeah this is my favourite part (which I may have had something to do with COUGH )

grizzled helm
#

I like some of the ideas better than the main game

#

there I said it

#

hot take

amber atlas
#

so hopefully the community likes it, because I want to build out my Illuvium holograph collection!!

cinder crest
amber atlas
#

(even if they aren't the super amazing NFTs)

grizzled helm
#

Do you ever see it being like on a different loading menu of the main game

#

like for example, if I log into Blankos, they have the Junction (main play area which you can interact with) and then other areas you load into, could the mini game work like that eventually?

grizzled helm
amber atlas
#

I think we (Aaron, Kierean, myself) etc, really hope to grow the interactions between this and the main game, but the extent will depend on the community both in terms of how the voting goes, and also the people will need to play the game to justify its growth

#

we can only put our ideas out there and hope they stick

#

šŸ™‚

grizzled helm
slow cedar
amber atlas
#

it is definitely exciting, even if keeping up with this chat seems like a job in and of itself šŸ˜‰

grizzled helm
#

keeps my mind off of school

#

Uni sucks online

lethal hamlet
#

I'm a bit confused.
Is the mini game that is slated to launch in December a "side project" to the main illuvium game?
Does it slow progress on the main game?
Is it mainly aimed at building initial interest and users?

grizzled helm
#

It has not passed yet and if the DAO has concerns/doesnt like the idea, things can be changed.

lethal hamlet
#

Nice.
I think it's exciting.
I just hope that if it's out first, it doesn't confuse the market or give the wrong (not fully formed) impression of what illivium is.

#

First impressions count

grizzled helm
#

then impressions could be pretty damn good

floral temple
#

is this game like axie ? i mean should we buy axies to start or is it diffrenet?

amber atlas
#

@lethal hamlet "I just hope that if it's out first, it doesn't confuse the market or give the wrong (not fully formed) impression of what illivium is." -> this is a good point and I think we should make it clear in any promo material and maybe even in the game itself that it is a precusor to Illuvium

slow cedar
#

Wasn't mini game time line listing a similar release date to the open beta of the main game?

#

If so they'll go hand in hand

digital smelt
#

Land comments: Tier 0 - infinite supply - good to bring in new players and universally accessible. Tier 1 - should equal to total number of stakers of ILV so each invested member buy one common land (say at .08 ETH per NFT style). Tier 2 land Fixed price at .8 ETH and is 1/10 of quantity of Tier 1. Tier 3, 4, 5, can by by auction at a fraction of the Tier 1 quantity. General: We need both whales and organized clans but at the same time need to find a way to maintain some balance at the same time.

noble quest
digital smelt
#

Another spin off option is For Land: Tier 2..5 to sell premium Land unlimited but the % chance of the revealed land has 50% of tier 2, 40% tier 3, 9% Tier 4, and 1% tier 5 but at a fixed price of .8 ETH. Could set a limit of 10K for these as well.

solar swallow
#

Damn, You can't even go to sleep

#

700 posts wtf..

#

I agree with Aaron that fixed price and amount that is smaller then amount of ppl the want to buy it will always be cause of drama

#

Especially if someone will get 2 or more while other person will get 0

#

Maybe there would be some way to add a bit of gaming in to it.

#

Like T0 plots are free and they are crap but when You will build enough or You will get enough of points then You will unlock/whitelist Your wallet for T1 land sale that would take place sometime later or when there would be enough ppl that were whitelisted

#

That could be repeated with higher prices on higher tiers

#

And maybe that could work for 50% of supply so ppl who would put some effort could "reserve" spot for themselves this way and after those would be sold then another 30% would be uocked with fixed price for speedy guys

#

And then 20% would be putted on auction

ivory vine
# bitter glade Do we randomise it?

If the possible max amount of plots is tied to the main-game then there is a limit we probably cannot exceed, I guess, but if this wouldn't be an issue then I'd personally even favor to simply limit the land plots by time. For example: have five rarities each with their own fixed price. Sell those within a certain 24h window. Let everyone buy as many plots as they want during that timeframe. Then never sell land again, so whatever was sold is what is in circulation. Due to fixed prices at sale, even if 10.000 of a certain plot would be bought, it should prevent prices from dropping and keep the sale price as floor price.

#

Personally, I agree with this despite seeing the pro's of an auction.

solar swallow
#

Also comparing huge amounts to Axie is just bad idea, those were different times. Today if they would put 10k lands on sale they would be sold out in 5 mins

#

If they would put 100k they would be also sold out in 5min

pseudo fiber
#

yeah a lot of the land sales are generating a ton of money, even when it's done with horrible marketing and no use case

#

its a little worrisome actually, points to bubble risk

solar swallow
#

Way to go could be making this sales only in sILV šŸ™‚

#

Imagine putting 10mln plots for 1 sILV each as reference šŸ™‚

#

All would not get sold this way šŸ˜‰

#

This kind of smart mechanism could be very cool and beside that it would bring ILV price up by just burning ILV

ivory vine
flat spindle
# bitter glade Others have shown me some sales where the large majority of land (common, etc) h...

The GDD is awesome! So much detail and thought put into this and a great idea for a mini game. Been reading through the chat re:land sales and there are a lot of good points in the discussion in favor of both fixed price and auction so think it would be great to incorporate both aspects.

Tier 1-2 (Common, Uncommon) could be sold at fixed price as @sweet mountain suggested (with research into how many land plots there should be decided by the council at later date) and Tiers 3-5 (Rare, Ultra Rare, Mythic) could be auctioned. This way there is a Free Element at Tier 0 (Virtual Land), Fixed Price at Tier 1-2 which gives all degens a chance to own land at an approachable base price that will hopefully appreciate on secondary market and yield farming value over time, and Tier 3-5 can be auctioned at current fair market value to give max return to ILV hodlers/stakers in terms of RevDis as @void harness suggested. Also agree with @noble quest that land value of the Tier 3-5's if auctioned can still appreciate as the game grows in future so there could be a multiple of return even if a large amount is paid for the land, bidders will just have to be mindful of what they think return will be and speculation is natural in all asset sales.

solar swallow
#

I think they main goal of making decisions here should be making the minimal amount of ppl upset

#

But I'm taking about real reasons like one did get 10 lands while other guy 0 and they were both same dedicated let's say

static raptor
#

That's impossible to stop though

solar swallow
#

I'm not talking about those who just wanna buy for 0.1 to sell it for 10 eth l later on

static raptor
#

Every system can be cheated

solar swallow
#

Ofc but we should try to make it proof in some degree

ivory vine
static raptor
#

Yeah I proposed that ha

#

Idk if it's better than an auction though

solar swallow
#

I mean that's like best whale option

#

But You could check if that's good

ivory vine
#

In my opinion it is better than an auction, because the fixed price should keep it from dropping below, the limited time period and one-time sale will keep lands scarce and in demand (we'll only grow further), no one misses out (unless they can't even buy the lowest tier, but then they most likely would miss out in an auction too) and if some whales want to buy a million land plots, well, this only means a lot of revdis and still probably not change the fact that these lands won't be sold below their purchase price at any given time.

solar swallow
#

Star atlas used this method for their posters

ivory vine
#

But, just my opinion. I don't decide anything šŸ™‚

static raptor
#

Yeah I guess everything has to be priced correctly too

#

Cause they have different rarity and utility

#

Its not clear what the price difference should be

solar swallow
#

I think only problem for this would be huge prices for lands later on when game would be released

ivory vine
solar swallow
#

That would probably upset many new players that came from non crypto

static raptor
#

Errr, you don't need land for main game, if you want it you can buy it

#

Seems ok

pseudo fiber
static raptor
#

Not everything has to be for everyone.

solar swallow
#

it's all about balance also like, would one mythic plot that would cost like 10eth generate same amounts of resources / fuel that 1500x 0,01 plots? Or maybe there will be stuff that won't be possible to get anywhere else then on mythic

#

Those things are also super important while we consider prices and the way they going to be sold imo

floral temple
#

@noble questboth man

solar swallow
#

I love Google keyboard on phone

amber atlas
bitter glade
bitter glade
static raptor
#

Well it's realistically capped depending on how it is priced, you could have each piece of land be very small of there are so many of them. Make it like the boardgame "chinatown" if you've ever played it

bitter glade
bitter glade
#

Ooh I like that. Illuvium Zer[0]

static raptor
#

But yeah if it's tied to ability to make resources for in game I can see how it might throw off the balance a bit when we don't know if there would be 1k or 100k tier1 lands

bitter glade
solar swallow
little wagon
#

So, Main game and mini game to be released in december?

solar swallow
#

and the last thing we would want would be some articles about another bad land sale in Illuvium that was just something not really connected with Illuvium but only mini game

#

If that would look like x amount of plots with fixed price that was gone in 5 min

#

and half of people wasnt able to participate becuase of bot's or some other people with quicker finger's

#

Obviously im sure u wont let that happen but im just giving the worse possible scenario just to prove why i think minimal amount of upset people is important in my mind

solar swallow
#

But those dates might slightly change like they pointed out already

little wagon
ivory vine
bitter glade
# ivory vine In my opinion it is better than an auction, because the fixed price should keep ...

Fixed prices don't stop it from dropping below ON AVERAGE. Because if the fixed price is above what people are willing to pay, then people just don't buy.

I think we should probably work out some base level axioms.

  1. Any auction of some type will find market price naturally.
  2. A fixed price only works if you have enough supply to cover everyone that wants it, because otherwise bots or lottery.
  3. An auction is much more likely to find a maximum revenue.
  4. A fixed price will most likely naturally undersell, which would lead to the people who purchase being able to experience gains.
  5. The DAO doesn't get any money from gains made by people who profit off the lands.
  6. The DAO and 'those that want to buy land' are not the same.

From this we should be able to come up with some simple ideas. Some things I am personally in favour of:

  1. Land prizes. So keep some supply for promotions.
  2. At the very least the higher tiers have an auction of some type.
  3. Absolutely cap the number of 'productive' land plots.
  4. Stagger the sale.

The thing I'm a bit shocked by, but I guess is normal, is that there's a lot of people who seem to be angling for them personally getting it cheap, but wanting it to be really expensive. I understand people might have said 'but I want to play' and that's why I said free infinite land. But it seems the real concern isn't 'will I get to play' but rather 'will I personally make a lot of money from this'.

It's a fair perspective, but just keep in mind unless we go with randomness or favoritism, this just mathematically doesn't work.

It would be like saying 'I want a New York apt for very little', but I don't want it to come from a housing crash, or at least I want it to bounce back immediately.

solar swallow
#

Those are different project's they might get deleted because of regular development delays

bitter glade
little wagon
bitter glade
#

One thing that I think would be cool is for the Mythic land to be reverse auctioned. Start the bidding at 500,000 ETH and have the price exponentially decay over a day or so. Half the price per hour or something.

little wagon
#

And delaying is never my favorite thing to see.

bitter glade
solar swallow
#

I think that for sure Tier 0 sould be free same as Illuvials

#

Did You think about splitting each tiers in to few parts like some fixed and some auctioned?

bitter glade
bitter glade
solar swallow
#

Did u read what I wrote some time ago about unlocking higher tiers to ppl who got some amount of points in let's say tier 0 to be able to get whitelisted for Tier 1 sales etc ?

#

Or that's Overkill?

static raptor
#

Can you pin it @bitter glade ?

solar swallow
#

The base idea was some mechanism to maybe whitelist ppl who are somehow dedicated so they could "reserve" land that they would need to but then with fixed price ofc

ivory vine
# bitter glade Fixed prices don't stop it from dropping below ON AVERAGE. Because if the fixed ...

People want profits for themselves. This was to be expected as a factor when it comes to how the community is going to comment on the GDD. It's not ideal, but not surprising either in my opinion. My main goal would be for the DAO to make profits because that inevitably benefits me as well but in a different way.

Personally, in regards to revenue gains I can see that an auction and limited plot amounts could be beneficial for the DAO but I'm not sure if similar amounts couldn't be reached with fixed prices, unlimited plots but a timed sale to then put a limit on circulating plots. The reason I'd favor this is the fact that it allows more people to join in on the "non-free" part of the mini-game which is something I think will let us grow a lot more with the sale and as a side-effect also grow revenue in the main-game.

But it is impossible to put this in numbers or even prove it, so I'll be fine either way. I put my view points out now and if the majority or probably more importantly the council decides for something different, then I'm still hoping for the best šŸ™‚

bitter glade
bitter glade
solar swallow
#

But if there will be no protection then it's going to be bought off by whales that are going to sell it for 10x

bitter glade
bitter glade
#

I was super surprised by how many plots there are in other titles. Especially the ones that don't really know what they want it to be.

slow cedar
#

@bitter glade is it possible to lock lands from sale for a period of time, like our vested rewards? It could be that sILV sales (if we did them) are locked for a year, similar to how vesting rewards would be

bitter glade
slow cedar
#

Let me rephrase - is it too much effort?

bitter glade
#

You can make an immutable version of Unreal Engine if you really want to, but it's going to run REALLY slow.

bitter glade
solar swallow
#

If my posts looks like I'm drunk while writing those it's because of phone and Google keyboard

slow cedar
#

Yeah fair enough. Just pondering what's possible. A key take away seems to be people want to not miss out, but we also want to maximise profits, and no one's sure both are possible together

bitter glade
#

unless we fix the price, in which case some whales going to buy up multiple and people will miss out.

#

That reminds me of a competition and prize that I thought of a while ago. BRB to check with marketing.

solar swallow
#

I think maybe something like selling 25% with fixed price and then 25% with auction to evaluate real market price would be good so then You could sell the rest by making them available with random date and random ammount with avg price from auction as fixed price

slow cedar
solar swallow
slow cedar
bitter glade
solar swallow
#

Ye but still it's more hussle if You could remove bots

#

Because of all those reasons that we are debating right now im pretty sure that if each ETH address would require ID connected to it would fix 90% of today's problems

slow cedar
#

Realistically, if you want to limit what people can buy then some form of whitelist/snapshot likely works best. A lot of drops I've seen do a secret snapshot of something undisclosed, then announce it after the fact (to prevent multi accounters/botters) and then have some of the sale done via whitelist, and anything not sold in the whitelist sale + a significant extra amount are rolled over into a public sale

solar swallow
#

I'm not even saying that ppl would need to see the ID but at last addresses connected to same ID etc

solar swallow
slow cedar
#

But in practice it's simple when done like this for the devs

#

One thing I would say though @bitter glade, the GDD in general didn't seem too polarising. It's had pretty much universal backing from what I've seen

solar swallow
#

I have no idea about how long this could take to make, or if that is even possible and its not overkill but I would split distribution to few poolā€™s and I would manage distribution over time by Tierā€™s. All numberā€™s are just for reference

With release of the game I would allow players to acquire Tier 0 landā€™s that would be free. People would play it and build stuff, gather resourceā€™s and fuel and by those action they would gather points ( no clue if they would be visible and needed for anything other then unlocking whitelist for Tier 1 land sale and above. ). Maybe there would be some more advanced option available there too like scanning and making blueprints but only for Tier 0 items and Illuvials? So basically for the Tier of land and below later on

After some fixed time, week letā€™s say.

  • 25% of Tier 1 landā€™s ( 2500 just for reference ) would be put on sale and ppl that had the most pointā€™s would get whitelisted to buy them for fixed price.
  • Few hours later there would be another 25% put on sale with fixed price for all those who has quick fingerā€™s ( People who want to buy from this point and below would not
    even need to touch mini game to be able to get those lands)
  • Few hours later another 25% would be out for sell but this time that would be auction with starting price equal to fixed price.
  • Last portion would be another 25% that would be sold over time with fixed price equal to average price of auction sales.

This mechanism could be used to Tierā€™s 0-3. Tier 4-5 would be left for auction only or maybe they could follow similar conditionā€™s?

This Tier distribution over time could allow for maybe releasing game a bit faster since You would have more timer to complete higher tier landā€™s that would be locked on start.

Also I was thinking about some competitive mechanism that could allow top playerā€™s from arena to maybe own landā€™s for some short duration while they are on top. That would be refreshed every week or something. You could add some PvP only resources there maybe that could be needed for some super rare taunting skinā€™s. This could be some pre designed land that would generate some random amount of this resource or maybe it could remember what u had built if You owned it before already and u had built some stuff on it.

I think connecting mini game to Illuvium would be good thing if we would make it something like, Illuvium would have impact on mini-game economy and mini-game would have impact on Illuvioum only cosmetic wise.

marsh osprey
#

Could sell land at a fixed price to wallets which had preILV sent to them. Auction the rest. Result: Rewarding early community, preventing bot and whale concerns, happy days

cosmic aspen
lost torrent
#

preILV does exclude people who weren't here from the start (and yes i was here at that point) and include people that were here just for the airdrop. But i like the thinking here

ivory vine
#

preILV in my opinion is way too elite as a selection criteria and it would go against the idea of benefiting the DAO vs benefiting certain individuals, in my opinion. It's exactly what Aaron pointed out in regards to profits of individuals vs gains of the DAO.

#

DAO > individuals

solar swallow
#

I dont because im here for some time but i didnt know about Illuvium when there was preILV drop šŸ™‚

echo swift
#

What if this mini-game comes out after the main game and those that have reached a certain point in the main game example: have caught 5 Illuviuls or have hit a certain achievement.

#

Give people that have played the main early a chance to buy the land first, would limit multiple accounts to an extent

half peak
cosmic aspen
solar swallow
#

I would say ppl who bought from balancer would be better option šŸ˜„

#

Or ppl who own any badge šŸ˜„

#

or like bronze, up to tier 2, silver tier 3, gold tier 4, plat tier 5

#

easy šŸ™‚

echo swift
#

I wouldn't buy the top tier land anyway.

#

Could we do a Balancer type sale for the land?

lost torrent
#

just a thought but would it be an option to allow t0 to create skins/emotes/... .without it being an nft that they can sell, but they can use it in game and maybe even let them pay for creating it
maybe less impressive emotes/skins, not the same that paid land can produce.
might make selling accounts a thing obviously.

flat spindle
sharp galleon
wanton owl
#

Nice

broken dew
#

Hi guys, trying to find the initial pitch of the mini game posted from announcements, any way I can find it without luck scrolling ?

solar swallow
#

check pinned post on top right

#

there is file under spoiler

broken dew
#

thanks!

swift inlet
#

blockchain farmville?

#

gotta be some kind of competition or goal to the game other than farming resources? did I miss something reviewing the doc

#

leaderboards would be a bit awkward if lower tier lands makes you unable to compete

#

i think the only way this game holds any interest to people who aren't just trying to make a profit through whatever resources are involved is if it can interact with ILV creature NFT's directly. i.e. you send your creature to your farmville farm for training to level up or learn a new move or something. maybe could be something interesting thing there, some kind of trade off for sending it over to be occasionally clicked on Illuvium:Farmville

Even in that case if it becomes something required for min-maxers i fear it would add tedium to the main game by giving auto-chess players the feeling they are forced to interact with a glorified facebook/phone clicker game. it should be something cool but extra. might be hard to strike that balance

bitter glade
#

It needs to connect with Illuvials but also that would be bad?

#

Maybe I had a stroke.

grizzled helm
swift inlet
#

well okay then, may need to seek medical attention

digital smelt
#

Another idea is to take a snap shot of the # of addresses that have stake ILV and use that as the basis to avoid bots or multiple address creations for Tier 1: Common Land - these addresses havea chance to buy. Then remaining land could be sold by auction or b) as unrevealed land where you don't know what type of land you get at fixed price - fix price but random result?

swift inlet
#

for the land, maybe give basic land to stakers in the pool, based on volume/weight. side bonus while the ILV is locked up, irrespective of sILV redemption, once ILV is unlocked land goes away.

bitter glade
swift inlet
#

just saying for a land-based game based on ILV a "illuvium rancher" seems like the most fun/appealing direction to go with it

but if strategic nerds that are min-maxers in the auto-chess portion of the game are forced to park their illuvials for a week to power them up or some other thing that's NEEDED to be competitive is implemented they may resent that

so if it's something that's a "side-grade" or something like that maybe it avoids that. maybe breeding or not powering up the illuvials at all but using them to slowly earn the ILV equivalent of a pokeball. I don't claim to have the answer just an observation designed to induce strokes

fervent iron
#

I think the land auction sale should be done sooner rather than later to provide some benefit to those who are here early, but to continually have a large but fixed number of cheaper and free plots (can be a phased approach) for people to purchase as time progresses and more people join to provide everyone with an opportunity to buy.

wind briar
#

But youre point to benefit holders can be easily fixed with have a seperate sale for wallets who are staking

#

not sure if that's beneficial to DAO tbh

#

I want everyone to just think was is best for the DAO and not yourself personally

little moon
#

IMO proceeds from potential landsale should go to ILV warchest and not to buy back ILV and distribute to stakers - we need bigger warchest and yield right now is good enough for stakers - no need to pump price with the proceeds, better to have additional funds in warchest

fervent iron
# wind briar But youre point to benefit holders can be easily fixed with have a seperate sale...

thatā€™s a good point and I can appreciate that sentiment. I think the approach wouldnā€™t exclude anyone from participating as long as they were staking, and everyone could be given some amount of time to do that similar to how people are given notice and a set amount of time to participate in our airdrops. The other motive of doing the sale sooner rather than later is to garner more interest in the community as a whole over the coming months as we all wait for a end of year launch versus doing it shortly before the actual game launches. Completely understand that thatā€™s easier said than done though.

#

I guess Iā€™m thinking (hoping) those two things donā€™t have to be mutually exclusive. Where by aligning economic incentives for the individual and the DAO, it benefits both.

wind briar
worthy cape
#

One option to consider for the sale - the 'mystery box' concept. Tiered boxes with different %'s of chances for land and other random items. Regardless of if going fixed price or auction, could be a way to add some chance/fun to things...

little moon
#

and as a SLP staker i don't want the price to be pumped - especially not through some landsale

wind briar
#

Armor for the RPG element, think those details can be hashed out later

wind briar
#

I really like the idea of very very low quality t1 lands that can appeal to 200k+ players, then quality really ramps up t3 and up

little moon
#

i'd also do the landsale in only ETH

wind briar
#

staggered sale for the low quality lands can be done in months time 2

next terrace
#

Can you consider hiding a part of the rare land during the exploration of the game, use the battle to drop the map fragments, and complete the fragment collection to obtain the land?

#

At present, the gameplay of nft blind box is very hot, why not try to obtain ordinary, general, rare, top and other plots in the form of blind boxes, so that they can be more equal, of course, some of the plots are considered to be given to early support in other forms Contributors

wind briar
wind briar
next terrace
next terrace
grizzled helm
little moon
hidden locust
#

As Illuvium is free-to-play, how does that link to wealthier players to sink their whaleness into the maingame? Because if you make a mini-game with landsale, that might be able to target and attract another set of players (I stopped reading at Land sale btw šŸ‘ )?

rotund epoch
little moon
# rotund epoch Why

Because the treasury is still not too big for what we are trying to achieve. There is no need for further yield right now, apy is insanely good. future land sales could be part of rev dis but right now i donā€™t see the point in already paying out to stakers when money could be used in treasury. Also it will pump the price which I donā€™t like. Slow and steady wins the raise, we donā€™t need to pump up the price with a landsale. Why should it go to stakers and not to treasury @rotund epoch ?

rotund epoch
candid elk
rotund epoch
slow cedar
candid elk
#

I see, canā€™t think of anything else where it would be an issue

slow cedar
little moon
little moon
rotund epoch
#

Treasury can stake and gain revenue distribution at some point no?

little moon
#

It will be income in ILV - income from landsale could be eth. So they donā€™t have to dump ILV for refilling the treasury.

rotund epoch
#

Also the price pumping gives the treasury more money.

grizzled helm
little moon
#

How that šŸ‘€ vault buys ILV I thought

rotund epoch
little moon
rotund epoch
grizzled helm
little moon
#

Ok. Just wanted to bring it up. I have a LP stake as well so will take the profit if the council decides this is the way.

little moon
rotund epoch
little moon
rotund epoch
#

The price increasing makes it take more money for someone to dilute my current share of the LP.

#

Donā€™t overthink it man.

little moon
#

this is maximizing my profit if ILV will be a longterm success nothing else

rotund epoch
#

Do what you think is best. As far as the land sale, the community/council will decide.

carmine moth
#

So think the ILV zero does a couple cool things.

First of all it shows one way of how the team plans to make it's games interoperable and in an interesting way. This is great because ILV is a leader in the crypto gaming space, and it's great to see the team pushing the philosophy behind it.

It also gives greater utility to resources gathered in the core ILV game, but it also doesn't give you much of an edge in the core ILV game either, especially when it comes to pvp. The Illuvial enhancments you'd be getting would be purely cosmetic by the sounds of it. But I'm sure some of these would be quite valuable.

This also gives players something to do while they await the core game and it should also keep eyes on the ILV token and make holders feel like there's still good value there and that they have good reason to hold and look forward to the future of their asset.

The Land sale and the full game launch would be pretty close together, so I think they avoid much of that cash grab aspect, and they're able to pull this off because it's a relatively simple game to build which they already have a lot of the assets for. So the lift here isn't massive.

All in all it seems like a great addition to the ILV universe the team has talked about building from inception and is a clever way to build out the resources and assets already in the core game. While at the same time it seems like it'll be a great little easy value add to the ILV token and give players something to do while they await the full release.

amber atlas
rotund epoch
noble quest
old maple
#

how to join the mini game

drifting pier
#

nice man

grizzled helm
#

check pinned messages for GDD

bitter glade
bitter glade
bitter glade
# carmine moth So think the ILV zero does a couple cool things. First of all it shows one way...

I just want to add to this that in terms of interoperability I have deliberately taken out any ideas where Illuvium feeds Illuvium: Zero.

This is because of the timelines and also because it is very early on. But remember from the very start the idea is to make games that function standalone (not everyone wants to play multiple games) but also link to each other. Want to play a city builder? Sweet. Want an auto battler? Sweet. You donā€™t need one to play the other but a marketplace links them.

Over time this would get more intricate.

You could say that technically the Overworld and the Autobattler are two separate games. And further expansion after public beta would make that clear.

We want a universe where many things exist to play but were all designed to fit.

If anyone knows Enjin, you have many games that ā€œcouldā€ link up. But they are all different teams and it is a bit ad hoc. I still love the idea though.

We are doing much the same thing but with a DAO that guides that growth.

A really bad analogy is that we want to be like Apple and Enjin is more like Android.

pseudo fiber
#

linking up multiple games with interchangeable resources is a great idea, potentially challenging to balance but an exciting direction. one of the biggest sells of nft gaming is that after you're burned out and done on game X you could retain value and move that into game Y or cash out, sounds like a great move in this direction to link the minigame into the main

rotund epoch
rotund epoch
bitter glade
#

I very much enjoy that challenge though, and if I can't do it, we have people WAYYYY smarter than me on the project to help out.

pseudo fiber
#

would you consider how many players are playing each game when considering the resource flow?

bitter glade
pseudo fiber
#

like say the minigame has maybe 10% of player base of main

rotund epoch
bitter glade
#

In Illuvium you won't play a 'story mode' like in many single player games. There are no chapters, and you aren't the hero. You just happen to be placed in a world and over time the story will develop. In that time you can go and explore and level up, build up your deck. And play people in PVP.

The world will slowly be built around you. You might have a part in the story unfolding, or you might not. Not everyone will.

You can think of the Overworld as a 'deck builder' where instead of just buying packs of cards, you have to explore, mine, harvest, forge, make choices, battle monsters, etc... But at the end of the day your purpose is to build up that perfect deck and then fight other people.

And then when all the features are implemented, we start to branch off the overworld and the battle. The overworld will become something more. It will truly be a stand alone game. You'll still be able to get stuff for your deck, but that won't be your only purpose. But these things take time.

We have a very small team lined up to work on Illuvium: Zero if it passes. But eventually we would just have teams for all sorts of game.

And I think the coolest thing is that apart from the first '2' games (Illuvium Overworld, Illuvium Autobattle), the DAO will guide us on all of them. I certainly did not think our next project would be a city builder. I have a game that I really want to build, but cannot until everything else is perfect. But that's so cool and organic.

One day I hope you let me build that game. It will be like 'On July 1st you are approved to start building your dream game.' and I'll be like, "It's a date!"

bitter glade
pseudo fiber
#

not an expert, but it feels like a lot more resources have to be committed to the overworld aspect right? the autobattler seems a lot easier to put together

#

also discord is gonna lose it when ILV Dating Sim finally drops

rotund epoch
sly leaf
#

TIL making games can be very hard

bitter glade
# pseudo fiber not an expert, but it feels like a lot more resources have to be committed to th...

It's pretty even. Keep in mind the underlying battle engine is required for both parts. So it is used in the Overworld (as Encounter Mode). The autobattle is also insanely complex to build. Remember we are going for a fully deterministic, fully data driven model. You can run the battle engine without unreal. It is its own thing that runs 'serverless' in the cloud.

This allows us many very cool things. We store battles literally as just starting states. Because if you know the starting state and the seed, you know the outcome. So every game ever will be archived for viewing. You can scout opponents, see what they like to do, learn their habits, just like chess.

It also allows us to expose an 'Illuvial Builder' to the community where they will be able to configure them and submit them for approval. (Artwork excluded)

As far as auto battles go, the goal is to make the best battler in the world. Not just the best crypto game. This is why we are launching as a public beta. There will still be many functions to add over time before it reaches a final state.

About 50% of the Illuvials will be available on launch. But there would be theoretically millions of combos of attacks to choose from. Once we build the modules for the other 50%, that number would go to quadrillions.

sly leaf
#

The vision of Illuvium is to be a completely community-owned game correct ?

bitter glade
#

The overworld on the other hand is a bit more simple. We have some movement mechanics that require people to build (or buy) equipment that lets you go everywhere. But on release it's main function is to be a 'pretty pack of cards'. You go in, you have to make decisions on what to collect, what to leave behind, and the fights will be a bit easier because you aren't playing against a human. (Keep in mind some fights might be impossible if you are low level)

The difficulty of the Overworld isn't so much in the linterlocking parts, as it is the artwork and building a large space that looks good.

That being said the backend (which is a lot to do with the overworld) is incredibly complex and we have some amazing engineers on it)

bitter glade
# sly leaf The vision of Illuvium is to be a completely community-owned game correct ?

This is correct. The tricky part with this is the back end infrastructure and game code. That won't be exposed to the community because otherwise it can be exploited and the whole thing is compromised. But as you see with Illuvium: Zero the idea is that someone makes a game design, and then the community discusses, and then finally the council votes.

Others can make their own game design documents and submit them.

sly leaf
bitter glade
rancid warren
#

mini-game

solar swallow
slow cedar
solar swallow
ivory vine
# digital smelt Another idea is to take a snap shot of the # of addresses that have stake ILV an...

While I would benefit from a whitelist that includes stakers only, I'm not sure if that would be the best approach. For the DAO I think it's best to have as many people (even speculators) be able to jump on land as possible. At least if plots are not limited and fixed in price. Those would sell out no matter what but if plots are unlimited and maybe kept scarce by only being sold in a certain time frame OR if there is an auction involved, then I'd prefer to see as many being able to participate as possible.

For me as an individual this might be less good but for the DAO (and thus via that again for myself) I think it would be better, but that's just me šŸ™‚

ivory vine
bitter glade
quartz minnow
#

no monsters or pet / battlers in the doc.

its this going to be a similar playstyle to starcraft / clash of clans?

bitter glade
#

It is just a mini game for now. Maybe more later.

grizzled helm
#

So we can have pets in the game :)) thatd be cool

bitter glade
#

In the mini game? No. At least itā€™s not in the current design.

grizzled helm
#

Thats fine

#

I mean in the future

#

I want to walk around with a little loovie beside me

digital smelt
# ivory vine While I would benefit from a whitelist that includes stakers only, I'm not sure ...

I see your point to maximize the Dao. I think the only benefit I like to see for stakers is early access on buys of one "common" land. The speculators will still have access to all land say a day later (as well as the stakers) sold by rarity or sealed packs at fixed or auction prices. I am also in favor of minor bias afforded to single land owners (the american dream of home ownership) for their one plot and widely held ownership which is a benefit to the DAO in the long term. Following the saga at Superfarm this challenge doesn't have a model solution yet but maybe ILV will find the perfect balance. Thanks for your feedback and insights.

blazing briar
digital smelt
# blazing briar What happened with superfarm? I have no context haha

SuperFarm 1. Whitelist model first used open sea. Worked ok except for transparency - not everyone that was in the whitelisted community got one. 2. First come first serve model with second set had huge gas and access issues. Went worse. 3rd set of 10k quantity did not even sell out even as this was created so everyone in the community could get one. Gas wars do not benefit the community and makes for a bad experience is one key lesson learned. How to provide fair access to the community that is basic without the competition and yet leave the premium rarity for the free market to decide. Personally I like premium as a sealed pack with randomness generating what you end up with versus selling by rarity where most capital has huge impacts. Packs would add some balance to between community and whales if luck will have it. Randomness makes sense too as you donā€™t get to decide where you are born.

blazing briar
slow cedar
#

A whitelist (however created) with a 48 hour buying window mitigates gas, let's the team know demand, and ensures all who are interested can get one

#

But we have to decide if we're trying to maximise profits and not care if it upsets the community, or please the community but potentially get less DAO money. That's the current choice to my eye

digital smelt
pale wyvern
#

Hi, what is the difference between "Invest" and Staking in the illuvium website. Thank you.