#Make auctions fair

1 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

obtuse dagger
#

Id like to add a rule if people post up an auction pokemon they can't say they will close it if they don't like the bids. Hold these people accountable and follow through with the auction.

#

Im just saying if you don't make this a rule auction post will die because no one will bid on auctions people say they will close

bleak sedge
#

While I don't frequent that channel, it does seem unreasonable for people posting auctions to renege on their auction after accepting a bid, just because they were hoping a better bid might come up.

I don't know if I'd agree with a rule forcing people to accept an auction that was underbid on, but maybe a restriction that you won't be allowed to post any new auctions for some span of time if you are found to be cancelling auctions with valid bids because you're not happy with the result.

Auctions inherently come with some risk that you won't sell for a high bid and most auction systems have a rule that you have to complete the sale/trade for whatever the winning bid is, no matter how low it ends up being. If you accepted the bid, then the bid is binding unless someone outbids with something better.

obtuse dagger
#

Yes we should at least have that

dry loom
#

a minimum bid is typical for even irl auctions. imo if someone consistantly closes auctions, they'll get a rep of doing it and ppl will stop bothering with them

bleak sedge
#

It might still be worth implementing some accountability, like a seller reputation type of thing. It's easy to deter a new person if they end up victim to these kinds of auctions.

For example, I've never tried a Pokémon auction before. I just found that channel today and saw someone offering a really awesome shiny I don't have yet. I post what I think is a fair bid and they accept my bid! I'm so excited! Time counts down and no one has outbid me. Any moment now I'll win the auction and that awesome shiny is mine! This is the best day of my life!....wait, why does it say the auction was cancelled? Where's my shiny? What do you mean my bid wasn't good enough? You accepted the bid. Wow, this auction channel is a total scam... waste of my time...

While that's kinda an exaggeration, it does show why it might be important for there to be consequences for cancelling an auction with valid bids. I'm not talking about someone bidding below the minimum bid, I'm talking about someone posting a low, but valid bid that the seller has accepted, and then they still cancel the auction to avoid selling for less than they were hoping for. Too bad, you accepted the bid, so you have an obligation to complete the sale per the rule we're proposing.

obtuse dagger
lost sundial
#

The way we rule it is, if the auctioneer accepts a bid as highest, they should follow through with it. But we cant force people to trade. if someone is backing out of auctions constantly, let us know. but we're not going to force anymore than above

obtuse dagger
obtuse dagger
#

People are not following your rules making top bids then backing out

burnt tiger
burnt tiger
# bleak sedge It might still be worth implementing some accountability, like a seller reputati...

Same for you dear Ceetch, if someone accepts a top bid and backs out of it last moment, that’s a rule break and they should be actioned on it. I don’t know if you reported it but that’s exactly the scenarios we are able to cover. Unfortunately we can’t facilitate and monitor every move traders make on the server, that’s just unfeasible given the voluntary nature of being staff.

obtuse dagger
#

So you can't even add a rule saying you can't back out after accepting a top bid so they can't use the loop hole?

#

Without a rule like that being in the rules people will keep trying to make it a loop hole

burnt tiger
#

Accepting a bid and backing out of it would fall under this rule as well as “take auction bids seriously”

IMG_3267.png
#

It’s different from making an auction and not accepting any bids because you don’t like them

obtuse dagger
#

Okay then can we report auction post that state they will cancel the auction if they don't like top bid

burnt tiger
#

Some rephrasing of the rules could be useful in those cases, though I’d like to reiterate that accepting bids and backing out of it falls under ghosting and would be subject to moderation regardless.

Not accepting any bids because a host doesn’t like them does not break a rule at this moment in time.

All we ask and frankly rely on is the community to report those instances so we can act accordingly.

obtuse dagger
#

That's the problem they accept bids but cancel if they don't like top bid

#

And people are literally saying in there auction post that they have the right to cancel top bid if it doesn't add up to the same value

#

Witch is braking the rules

#

Like it happened to me just yesterday

bleak sedge
#

I see, so it's already a rule then, but apparently not being enforced (at least not in enough cases)

If a bid is made and the seller accepts it, then that's locked in. Cancelling the auction after accepting a bid should not be allowed (without good reason), and trying to cancel the auction without a valid excuse will be treated as "ghosting" and receive the same punishment?

obtuse dagger
burnt tiger
#

I see. Thanks for this perspective, we’ll have a talk with the team and see if there’s anything we can do to limit any loopholes.

In the meantime feel free to continue the discussion here and for anyone participating to share any examples/annoyances/suggestions, we really appreciate them.

obtuse dagger
#

As they clearly are

burnt tiger
#

At least in my view.

bleak sedge
#

Not happy with the top bid...

Like, I was expecting that people were just closing the auction without stating a reason and it was suspected that it was because they weren't satisfied with the bid, but this guy blatantly stated they're cancelling the auction because they're not happy with a bid that was already accepted?

Yeah, pull that on a real auction site like eBay and you're immediately blacklisted/banned.

obtuse dagger
bleak sedge
#

Like, why accept the bid in the first place if it wasn't "good enough"? I can only imagine they accepted bids in hopes of someone trying to outbid them and only cancelled it because they didn't get the outbid they were hoping for....

obtuse dagger
#

Yeah that's what happened

burnt tiger
#

But to be clear, I personally agree with the points you both are bringing up

obtuse dagger
bleak sedge
#

So yeah, thank you ili for looking into this. I don't use the auction channel, but it definitely might be worth reconsidering how that ghosting rule is written to incorporate people trying to duck out of auctions if they didn't pull a bid they were happy with. It's one thing if you turned down all the bids and closed without any accepted bid, but if you accept a bid, it's locked in and you shouldn't close the auction without a valid excuse (and deciding you aren't happy with the last bid isn't a valid excuse)

That said, can sellers extend their auction to try to wait for more bids?

obtuse dagger
#

Witch is a long amount of time

burnt tiger
molten geyser
# burnt tiger The maximum is 72h as swirls said, so no exceptions to wait for bids

Hi, as someone who did experience some issues in the action channel involving this rule: I would like to add some feedback and suggestions to the 72 hour rule limit.

Some auctioneers will state "I am going to shorten/extend the time" because they're trying to rig it in a way so they get the bid they want to make it unfair for others. As in, they state a certain time period, and extend or shorten it to ensure they get the specific one they want.

I had one case where they extended the auction because they found someone in a trade, urged them to the auctions and had them bid. Which made the auction unfair. There are some cases where they are constantly changing it because of being indecisive. But it can happen so much that it gets confusing, yet many of these still fall under the 72 hour limit.

Perhaps, there may need to be more enforcement around that too, to prevent unfair trades, rigged auctions, or maybe a certain limit on how many times you can extend/shorten it.

burnt tiger
#

Thanks for your input on this matter, we will keep this in mind with any changes we’d make.

Again, please, notify us of any unfair situations, if we are not aware of this happening it is impossible for us to act upon them!

molten geyser
#

I believe I did report the unfair action at the time. While not a situation that happens often, I wanted to add to that for the sake of feedback and discussion.

the indecisive one is a little tricky. As that's not intent to rig, but it can get to a point where too many changes happen and could be frustrating for bidders. Like can one report that since it's not intentional, and it still falls under the 72 hour limit rule?

#

These situations don't happen very often, but may be worth discussing. That's all.

burnt tiger
#

It certainly is worth discussing, we want to make auctions enjoyable for everyone after all

#

I appreciate the input

molten geyser
lost sundial
# molten geyser <:QuaxlyThumbsUp:1110201889993281726>

My biggest thought is, all of this is prevented if we make sure people dont back out on accepted bids. If someone auctioning accepts a bid as highest, they need to intend to be happy to trade for that. If they don't, i'm happy to warn/punish them. I dont think timing matters too much as long as it doesnt go over 72 hours. People can always look for more, or accept less if they want, assuming they're not extending too far, and dont back out on a highest offer. If you get outbid, it feels like that's on you.

#

the point of auctions isnt to make sure you get a good deal, nor is it to force people to make trades they don't want to do

#

which is why forcing auctioneers to only accept things they'll go through with fixes this

molten geyser
#

I agree. Unless I missed something in the rules, I don't think it was stated that people intentionally changing the time on it to rig it so they could get a better "accepting bid" as a loop hole was stated as a reportable offence. For most of us, it may be obvious that you could report that.

As for the changing the time too often, I also agree on accept a bid as highest. You may get a user that comes in, leaves an "auction ends at -specific time-" and theres a lot of either extending or shortening it.

I could very well be misremembering this specific one, it could very well be i'm thinking it was the malicious rigger from the first scenario. My memory is trying to say this may have been a different person. It was being shortened then extended like over three times. I imagine seeing that could be a bit frustrating for people who do have interest in bidding, and it's constantly getting changed.

I vaguely even remember a person asking about this in discord questions and that was the one constantly changing it.

lost sundial
#

We're discussing, but current consensus, which might change, is auctions can be shortened, but only extended if the winning bid was made within 30 minutes of it ending

#

and if so, only by a few hours

#

this might change, but realistically if someone wants to end early they can

molten geyser
lost sundial
#

report issues as they happen

#

we are unaware of all these

obtuse dagger
#

The biggest issue right now is the loophole people are useing to ghost auctions

bleak sedge
# lost sundial We're discussing, but current consensus, which might change, is auctions can be ...

So basically if an auction suddenly gets attention and new bids are being offered, the seller can extend the auction by a few hours to give more people time to get their bid in, but only up to that 72hr limit.
Similarly, if the seller is satisfied with the current highest bid, or there hasn't been any new bids in a while, the seller can close the auction early and complete the trade with that last highest bidder.
What's not allowed is being indecisive and just randomly extending or shortening the auction without good reason, such as the auction is nearing the end and the seller isn't happy with the highest bid, so they suddenly extend the auction in hopes of getting more bids in. Or suddenly shortening the auction to scare people into thinking they're going to miss out, prompting impulsive bids.
This kind of manipulation is dishonest and probably shouldn't be allowed.

Is that what you guys are saying?

lost sundial
lost sundial
obtuse dagger
#

Almost all auction post say it now because you don't have a rule saying they can't so there ghosting top bids

#

Like just today someone put up a post saying this

lost sundial
#

Please report people who do that

obtuse dagger
#

Or add a rule saying they can't state this in the auction

#

Look at there post they clearly state they will dip if they don't like top bid thinking its okay because you guys don't have a rule to simply shut this behavior down

#

Again another one just popped up

#

Saying they will close if not liking top bid

#

This loophole needs to be shut down

obtuse dagger
lost sundial
#

report these people

obtuse dagger
lost sundial
#

in this channel

#

that you have been told

#

5 times

#

we are currently updating the auction rules to be clearer

obtuse dagger
#

Yes I know but I was just simply saying its to vague

lost sundial
#

Yes, we're aware of that

#

We are fixing it

#

it doesnt change the fact that if someone accepts a bid, and ghosts

#

its against the rules

#

so if that happens

#

please tell us

obtuse dagger
#

Also is it being added they can't state they will close if not liking top bid?

#

So then we can report thoes post if they do

terse axle
obtuse dagger
#

That's what's been happening

lost sundial
#

please

#

read what i'm saying

#

if they accept a bid, they have to take it

#

if they don't, we'll punish them

#

People are allowed to decline bids

#

if you lowball them

#

We will make it clear in the auction rules, but it is already against the rules

obtuse dagger
#

Okay

burnt tiger
primal frostBOT
#
ongepast (ID 248945583874768905)

[Message](#announcements message) in #announcements

Auction Rules Update <t:1751613060:D>

Hey <@&1179779819811127336>!

After getting community feedback and discussions with the team, we decided to overhaul the auction rules in order to create a fair and fun environment for everyone involved. Below are some updates to our auction section of the server:

  • Added #auction_rules for easier reference and consistency purposes.
  • Added rule for snipe extensions: last minute bids may lead to a time extension, please read the full rule for details.
  • Clarified rule on time limits: once a time limit has been set for the auction, the host is not allowed to shorten/lengthen it, only in the case of accepting a top bid. Please read the full rule for details.
  • Clarified rule on top bids: if a host accepts a bid, they are required to follow through.

Any rule breaks are subject to moderation. If you have any questions about the rules, feel free to DM an online Moderator or Admin, or you can ask away in #server_questions. I want to thank everyone for their feedback and suggestions.

If you feel there are any unfair situations happening in auctions, please feel free to reach out to us via #reports or DMs. For now, happy trading!

Command triggered by ongepast. Message from ·
burnt tiger
#

@obtuse dagger @molten geyser @dry loom @bleak sedge @terse axle since you all participated in this thread

#

Thanks for your discussions and feedback!

obtuse dagger
#

Thank you these new rules are perfect

terse axle
burnt tiger
bleak sedge
#

@burnt tiger
However, it is not allowed to end an auction for any other reason.
This line could be problematic in rare cases.
Let's say something comes up where I can't complete the auction, like my Switch suddenly breaks or I'm forced to be away from home for an extended period, or I was in a serious accident and I'm in the hospital, etc.
With some allowances for extreme circumstances, the host should be allowed to cancel the auction with or without accepted bids. What is considered "extreme circumstances" will be considered on a case by case basis and will require mod/admin approval. Perhaps DM a mod to request special permission to cancel the auction. The mod will have to be the one to post that the auction was closed due to extreme circumstances. (Mod does not have to disclose the reason, for privacy in cases of sensitive issues) In cases where a bid was accepted, the mod/admin may request that the host follow through with the last accepted bid when the "extreme circumstances" has passed. So for example, if I was in the hospital for a week, then the auction will be closed early and I may be asked to complete the trade for the last accepted bid when I get home safe from the hospital. The time limits for "ghosting" will be waived up to a fair limit in these cases.
In similar cases, the rule for "ghosting" may be waived in "extreme circumstances" as well. Again, cases like my game console exploded, or there was a major storm that knocked out my internet access for a week, or I was in the hospital, etc. In these cases, the person causing the delay needs to make their best effort to notify the other party, and in cases where the bid or auction needs to be withdrawn, the person needs to contact a mod/admin to let them know why they can't complete the trade (or request extra time to complete the trade)

I'm sure there's a shorter way of phrasing all that, but simply saying no canceling auctions ever may be too unforgiving and too strict.

faint yacht
#

It's not like if someone cancels an auction they're immediately gonna be banned from the server. It follows the same as the other rules, where repeatedly breaking the rule will lead to consequences

bleak sedge
#

That may be true, but I know if it were me, I'd rather not have that mark on my record/reputation if something insane happened to me.
Rather than knowingly breaking the rules, taking the strike, and proceeding like nothing happened, I think it's fair to have a provision in the rules that a mod/admin may, at their own discretion, waive the rules and allow an auction/bid to be cancelled, or allow the trade to be delayed without "breaking the rules". I'd feel a lot better about the situation if I can have a mod post that they're authorizing the cancelation of the auction due to extreme circumstances, rather than me just closing the auction myself and it looking like I'm making excuses.

#

Anyway, that's just my feedback on that part of the rules. I figured it was in line with this topic, so I posted here instead of making a new thread.

faint yacht
#

As with anything reported, the person that was reported can always tell their side of the story, we're not taking action and refusing to listen to anything contrary, So you can treat it as if that provision is there anyway

burnt tiger
clever patrol
#

#1391173511963476089 message .he says highest bid is not the same as accepting bid.is this a loophole he want to take or i am take it wrong and this is not breaking the rules?

primal frostBOT
#
yukaroihonda (ID 869837954565165066)

[Message](#1391173511963476089 message) in #1391173511963476089
Squint your eyes maybe because I don’t see where I said I accepted it, I said it’s the highest bid

Command triggered by wolffrvin. Message from ·
obtuse dagger
lost sundial
#

dealing with it in reports

#

dealt with