dnd-discussion

[eager marsh]

tournament arcs are great in anime. not as much in D&D

[red steppe]

isn't it like a team battle royale though?

[feral fulcrum]

They're not even great in anime half the time. Though I may be burned by later Dragon Ball examples

[lyric viper]

Oooh okay now I'm very familiar but was not expecting that to be a thing in DND

Multiversal teams surviving a team battle for the sake of their universe's survival. Winner gains a wish. Not sure how you'd make it more than that.

[red steppe]

basically 10 ppl are chosen to fight in whats basically a team deathmatch/battle royale, each team has around 10 fighters from different universes and if all members in that team were to be eliminated, their universe is destroyed

[red steppe]

Yes like that

[eager marsh]

The tournament of power officially would be an extremely long no rest allowed combat series that would take multiple sessions to start with and you’d need to basically provide a continuous string of encounters that are weaker than you otherwise would in order for it to actually work out that the party can do all those encounters consecutively without rest

[lyric viper]

That's the concept. Other than terrain or adding in hunger game style challenges there's not much more to it.

[red steppe]

tbh there should be a rival team and one person from a team thats stronger than anyone else (like Jiren)

[eager marsh]

Resource management makes it significantly harder to balance that exact scenario towards the end still

Because most player slots and features would be used up by the time you reach your ‘strongest warrior’ and the party can’t recover anything during an extended battle so is he actually strong or is the party just spent? Dagonball doesn’t narratively work as well in D&D terms

[paper portal]

sounds perfect for optimizer slop imo :3

[eager marsh]

Party brings a 2024 cleric and cheats in a short rest with divine intervention.

[lyric viper]

You probably could have a lot of fun in #optimization figuring out different rival team builds if basing them off pcs and not monster design.

[red steppe]

what if i make the final battle like the Shinjuku Showdown arc of JJK? Multiple teams are now ganging up against this one strong opponent after realizing how powerful they are in comparison to everyone

[eager marsh]

I’m just trying to point out that trying to balance out this scenario for your players would be hell

[paper portal]

theres a challenge i wrote that some ppl (me included) are pretty hyped for thats kinda similar to that, dungeon crawl with a cr19 boss at the end where you get a short rest before rinsing and repeating 3 more times

different dungeon each time ofc but the idea is kinda similar

[eager marsh]

As in the party is being overwhelmed by numbers in a single massive combat? Action economy could get rough but that’s normal

[paper portal]

yeah i do agree with that

if an enemy is as strong as the party is they'll probably have a couple kos let alone spare resources

[red steppe]

No no, I mean like the PC party and the NPC teams are ganging up on just ONE person

[buoyant oar]

Balance in my high fantasy TTRPG? What do you think this is?

Pathfinder?

[paper portal]

yes i keep bringing this up cus its rly cool and im excited for when i have the time to run/play it

[red steppe]

I use the Wish ritual in pf2e to turn myself into a max level 3.5e Wizard

[eager marsh]

So a singular bbeg but the party has NPC helpers? Finding a sweet spot will still be rough since legendary actions are only really programmed to balance against a party of 4-5 and if you just give them more legendary action points they risk just focusing down people too easily between turns

[red steppe]

btw they will fight a massively nerfed GITM

[paper portal]

thats so peam

[red steppe]

Yes, maybe the fight begins when there's around 3-4 teams left

[eager marsh]

That’s a lot of npc helpers you still need to account for

It’s doable but like…you’ll wanna crunch some numbers or you’ll be forced to fudge them a lot more during actual play

[red steppe]

i will repeatedly stub my toe for a whole minute before i fudge any rolls

hmmmm but i do wanna keep the risk of PCs outright dying in the battle as well

[hidden spindle]

Legendary Actions equal to the amount of participants would be a good start...

Then don't forget about the Mythic Actions for phase 2

[minor cargo]

I'm late on this, but in terms of tournament arcs in D&D, I also agree that your straight forward "brawler" doesn't work.

I think a "Battle Royale" could work as a hexcrawl, but you need to make sure that it's all teams from the get-go (otherwise the party isn't super incentivized to stay together until the end).

The last time I did a tournament, I made it a "points" system and instead of fights, there were "open ended" tasks. Such as "Bring me an egg" or "Show me true beauty".

The gameplay loop was then:

1. Get the task.
2. Ask NPCs for their opinions. This builds out a "quest board".
3. Pick one out of several possible quests. All rivals will pick the other quests.
4. Do the quest (usually a dungeon).
5. Present it, but sell it to the "judge" based on information you have (can get) about the judge.

This way worked because at the end, they got a number of "points" - and so the tournament remained tense because after each test, the rankings would change and the party could see how they were stacking up. I roughly planned for them to stay near the Top 3, but shift a little bit here and there to keep things tense.

[umbral girder]

Easy way to keep tension and do damage and not cause a TPK, slightly (very slightly) over level the encounter and give the players a few strong healing potions.

The yo-yo will keep them concerned.

[tired gazelle]

I feel like a little feind waiting for the next DnD session

[balmy pendant]

Is Griffon Saddlebag book 1 on dnd beyond only 5.5?

[red steppe]

Should I give them 40 hours preparation time before the tournament starts?

all of them would be lvl 20 anyway

[umbral girder]

That is the plan with all new releases to my knowledge

[paper portal]

probably not, preptime is way too busted in this game

[molten crater]

By the looks of it, yeah. So either give it a while before D&D Beyond publishes the 5E version on their site, or if you have a copy on hand and don't mind doing the work then you can put it in yourself though do expect certain results based on how good you are with D&D Beyond's homebrew stuff.

[red steppe]

i'd agree but mid-op players tho

[paper portal]

oh if its like ttb mid op level then yeah should be fine

[umbral girder]

Yeah DnDBeyond is stopping with 5e for new 5.5e content I think

[red steppe]

it'll be a mix of low op and mid ops(not ttb level)

i'll be making this for adventurer's league

[paper portal]

nah i meant like mid op on the ttb scale

[molten crater]

I thought they were gonna draw back a bit from 5.5e due to lack of sales? Least from what I've heard.

[paper portal]

cus thats like 1/6

[umbral girder]

No?

If anything we are getting more content for 5.5e than last year

[red steppe]

oh i see lmao

[paper portal]

tbh its 2/6 i just like slander

[red steppe]

i respect the slander 🙏

[remote wadi]

I may have wasted an hour or 2 in dms about that battle royale topic

I should probably go sleep now

[umbral girder]

In fact its core rules already outsold the 2014 ones already.

[paper portal]

son 😭 😭 😭 😭

[remote wadi]

I got waaaaaay too invested in that sort of setting

[paper portal]

2 hours of getting cooked in dms is crazy

[remote wadi]

Cooked

Nah

I mean, I don't know what people related to topic were thinking about adding anti matter rifles

[humble cairn]

That would be weird for them to stop using their most current ruleset.

[remote wadi]

Shots are already unbelievably high attack rolls, you're just making me want to have advantage on shots and deal 50+ damage per shot

[paper portal]

caps out at 108 iirc but thats gargantuan

[crimson gulch]

No, it's the best selling set of books of all time

[remote wadi]

Not sure about capping out. But with the weapon size doubling damage, 108 would be average per shot

[umbral girder]

Oh wow the 2024 PHB outsold the 2014 one in a month of release. By 3x the sales.

[atomic kayak]

Considering "5.5" is still actually just 5e and just the style of all future 5e content... they aren't ever going to "go back"

[umbral girder]

Time moving forward as it always does.

[crimson gulch]

All content of 5e still works with the new core books too

[remote wadi]

Makes me wonder if I should ever try 3.5e

[molten crater]

I didn't say they completely abandoned it, I was just saying that they were now leaning more towards 5E than they are with 5.5E for all the players who are still sticking to that edition.

[umbral girder]

Your best bet is third party content that isn’t on DnDBeyond or homebrew. 2014 is over.

[molten crater]

Guess I was wrong lol

[crimson gulch]

Very, there's just some loud voices trying to say that but they are wrong too

[atomic kayak]

Another issue with that mindset is its a new edition. Its not

[humble cairn]

Yeah, pretty sure the explicit plan is to not make any new official material using the 2014 ruleset.

[atomic kayak]

Thats what revised rules tend to do

[hidden spindle]

Yup. It's just 5e, with an update. But I'm sure if there were any new supplements, it could work with either rule set

[molten crater]

Plus it's not like it's hard for some folk to convert to either side, be it converting 5.5E stuff to work with 5E or vice versa. Would take some work with D&D Beyond's homebrew stuff but if you know what you're doing then you're solid.

[atomic kayak]

Considering how the actual base rules of the system are, by and large, completely or functionally unchanged sure

The area of the game that got the highest percentage of changes is the classes, which are effectively variant classes

[red steppe]

I realised that if the creature i'm already modifying is already CR 30 or -, I can just repeatedly add modifications to it willy nilly since the CR cap is 30 RAW for adventurer's league

[faint thicket]

That's to be expected since D&D is main stream now

When 5e began it didn't have that pull

[atomic kayak]

The rest of the rules... like 10%? Maybe. Got functionally changed otherwise. The rest was either literally copy pasted or got a non function changing wording change (ex: the skill actions)

Skill actions are new sure, but don't actually change the base function of "it takes an action to do a skill unless the DM says otherwise" that has always been the case in 5e

[umbral girder]

Yeah going from 5.5e to 5e just means “your class does less and have less stuff now. Monsters too.”

[atomic kayak]

Monsters arent even new considering its been the general pattern for them for the past 5 years

[umbral girder]

Yep

[molten crater]

Yeah the classes may be one of the hurdles that 5E players would have to get over when converting, because I have noticed that they've altered some of the leveling in the classes when you get your subclasses like with Sorcerers not getting their subclass till 3rd level instead of 1st level.

[atomic kayak]

Most of the design pattern of stuff that came in the 2024 books are patterns that began in Tashas

[umbral girder]

Yeah a lot of 2024 design takes notes from Tasha’s and Monsters of the Multiverse.

[umbral girder]

Yeah and in response the 2024 versions got a lot of new stuff early or got later stuff early too.

Like Sorcerer’s super mode they can enter

Or warlock making pact boons level 1 invocations.

[hidden spindle]

The designs to monsters were always advancing and I loved it when seeing the Ambitious Assassin's statblock

[wicked mulch]

D&D Question of the Day (D&D Beyond: Playing the Game):

You wield a rapier (Finesse). Which is valid?
A) You must use STR.
B) You may choose STR or DEX each time you attack.
C) You can add both STR and DEX.

[paper portal]

B

[humble cairn]

I feel like there were a bunch of fairly small changes, but they fixed a lot of the issues or changed things in subtle and impactful ways.

[crimson gulch]

Phew, epic session last night finnaly got a PC kill with a beholder

[molten crater]

There was also the issue with the races that 5E had an issue with 5.5E, and I ain't referring to the controversy I'm speaking of those that say that 5.5E took away from the race options. Like no longer is there half-orcs or half-elves and species like the Dwarves and Elves they had their subspecies fused into one.

[steep creek]

dnd beyond actually suggests a few books like this to download first, for free

[crimson gulch]

nothing was taken away, just new options added

the new book tells you exactly how to use any old options with the new ones

[paper portal]

if you dont like 5.5 you can just not play it, thats what i do

[umbral girder]

Makes sense. It’s the closest to 2024’s design. The bridge between 2014 and 2024

[humble cairn]

Half Orc and Half Elf are no longer mechanically different going forward, but you can still have them in the lore of your characters.

[paper portal]

W change tbh

hi amity :3

[reef tundra]

I use mostly 5.5e but players and I can still use 2014 5e options

[reef tundra]

Hi wings! :D

Tbh, combining 5e and 5.5e has been peak for me

[paper portal]

personally i think the new rules SUCK and NOBODY should use them /silly

[crimson gulch]

i was on the fence about the new core books too, until i actually read them when they came out (UA Was a mess) and when i got it at the beginning of September in 2024 i realized that there was no reason not to immediately begin using them, so i did and i have about 550 sessions ran with them on the table now.

[steep creek]

even fantasy novels are a good source of inspiration

[paper portal]

i think at some point im gonna forget why i dont like 5.5 and try it again only to find out that i do in fact still not like it

[steep creek]

give it some time... you can always play strict 5.5e rules with core gameplay elements from previous editions

[crimson gulch]

i agree 100%, i dont see how that relates to the statement you replied to but 100% read good fantasy

[paper portal]

or i can just play 5e :3

[steep creek]

its not widely accepted..

[paper portal]

it really still is

[umbral girder]

This is something that makes me sad for the 2024 PHB.

They don’t got an inspirational reading section like the 2014 PHB.

[humble cairn]

Let people play what they want?

[steep creek]

of course! that's a good reason to contact your DM

[paper portal]

yeah the shift to 5.5 has been much bigger online cus a lot of people irl dont wanna or just havent got around to buying the new books

also im a sweaty optimizer nerd and literally none of us have changed over

[crimson gulch]

no, my local shops have sold more 2024 handbooks than every other book put togeather since they launched

[molten crater]

Personally I've been doing my own thing; taking elements from 5E and 5.5E and mixing it up, my players seem to be enjoying it thus far and one even once referred to it as 5.3E XD

[atomic kayak]

The online community probably has a higher percentage of people who haven't swapped than offline

[crimson gulch]

there are pockets of folks that havent got the new books but the minority is shrinking

[umbral girder]

Especially with 2014 content isn’t being made anymore

[paper portal]

rly? maybe its just where i live or something but i havent seen anyone using 2024

[hidden spindle]

Reminds me when I played with a '14 table. They said they didn't like the new rules.

They didn't even know the '14 rules

But again, that's just my only experience

[crimson gulch]

yeah, i still use 2024 exaustion suprise and counterspell

[atomic kayak]

Near everyone i know who plays offline (many of whom arent involved in the online community) have partially or completely swapped by now

[crimson gulch]

yeah that has been my experience too with a lot of folks

[steep creek]

personally i was really let down about 5e

[umbral girder]

Yeah 2024 Counterspell hurts so many mages. Just yesterday the Archmage the players fought couldn’t get any spells out

[steep creek]

but our campaigns as a teenager in 3.5e were very.. well.. bleak

[umbral girder]

+1 con with advantage vs DC20 Con saves hurt that boss

[paper portal]

to be fair thats just dnd players in general

[molten crater]

Oof yeah, that is rough for that archmage lol

[humble cairn]

But any Legendary caster will Legendary Resist.

[umbral girder]

Yep but she wasn’t a legendary

[crimson gulch]

i found the opposite, when the new core book dropped so many more players read BOTH handbooks to decide how to build their characters, understanding of options and nuance leaped forward A LOT

[umbral girder]

Also if she did we had two more people to counter spell her

That lady was just not getting spells out

[steep creek]

this. and not wanting to go backwards as a DM or remake characters every 10 years

[humble cairn]

Ahh, that's an interesting phenomenon. How many of them discovered they never really knew the 2014 rules that well?

[feral fulcrum]

Well there's your problem. If the player party is full of spellcasters, one non-legendary spellcaster isn't going to do squat.

They need a backup dancer squad capable of counter-counterspelling

[umbral girder]

She did have a punch of undead and wear wolves and a dragon

[crimson gulch]

every 10 years? i do campaings way faster than that

[umbral girder]

But yeah the players had her on lock and got rid of the minions one by one

Thank goodness for Arcane Burst.

She got to contribute something

[humble cairn]

Was she an Int caster? If so she would recognize Counterspell and be able to move out of it's range, wouldn't she?

[umbral girder]

Didn’t have the movement

[humble cairn]

Ahh ..

[crimson gulch]

if your getting counterspelled to much break LOS and drop a globe of invulnrebility

[umbral girder]

Wasn’t in the stat block besides it still wasn’t an easy fight.

[crimson gulch]

its totaly in the archmage statblock, i use the spell lists from 2014 monsters on their 2024 versions for extra spice

[steep creek]

this. and players not knowing the difference

[umbral girder]

Yeah but I don’t do that.

[humble cairn]

Ahh something I used as a player, but could also be usable for a villain: Have a minion drag/carry you. Mounts also work wonders for mobility.

[umbral girder]

They tried but got the players low and locked in Menzobarrenzan.

[crimson gulch]

i recommend it for the spellcaster enemies in particular

[umbral girder]

Bard I think is out of spell slots entirely too

Yall it’s all fine the encounter was still a success

The players successfulling counter her was part of the goal.

[steep creek]

so what classes do you guys play?

[umbral girder]

Ranger usually. After I did every artificer subclass Ranger is next. Once I finish Ranger I’m trying Rogue.

[crimson gulch]

i actualy did get a chance to play a paladin this week

normaly i dm every night so that was nice for a change

[umbral girder]

Yeah new perspectives help GMing a lot.

[humble cairn]

Bard is my most comfortable, but I've been trying to get every class in. I'm only missing Sorcerer and Cleric.

[hidden spindle]

I really like the changes to the Heavy Property so small race aren't disadvantaged using them

[steep creek]

explain?

[crimson gulch]

2024 did that, great change

[humble cairn]

My favorite change was the Grapple/Shove change. Such a small change that leads to a fundamental different in the melee combat environment.

[umbral girder]

The 2014 one gave disadvantage to use for small creatures.
2024 changed it you need 13 in Strength for Melee heavy weapons and 13 Dexterity for Heavy Ranged Weapons

[hidden spindle]

Its based on ability scores instead of Sizes

[umbral girder]

Hurts a few caster dudes who don’t use STR or DEX for their attacks (warlocks and Battlesmith’s) who want heavy weapons

But overall a nice accessibility for everyone else

[still plover]

"Heavy. Creatures that are Small or Tiny have disadvantage on attack rolls with heavy weapons. A heavy weapon's size and bulk make it too large for a Small or Tiny creature to use effectively."
https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/dnd/basic-rules-2014/equipment#WeaponProperties

[umbral girder]

Giving Martials more advantages

[humble cairn]

Martials got more tactical options in many subtle ways, something they needed.

[atomic kayak]

Always should've been based on ability score

Heavy property in 5e originally was an extremely arbitrary and weird integration of weapon sizes that was not in effect for literally anything else

[humble cairn]

Because being able to do more interesting things than simply HP damage make tactics more rewarding.

[crimson gulch]

my top things for 2024 are Weapon masteries, the EXP encounter budget, the Extra spicy monsters with Expertiese in initative

[umbral girder]

GWM moment

[atomic kayak]

Gnome sized dagger for a Goliath? Same thing

Gnome sized hammer? Well suddenly its different

[still plover]

"When you said gnome hammer, I thought you meant -"
"Nuh. Say hello, Kevin."
"Hi! I'm Kevin!"

[humble cairn]

Mounted combat in 2024 also works as apparently it was intended to work originally but wording got in the way. A huge win for mounted melee combatants.

[umbral girder]

Thinking about how the old guard devs leaving had big changes in game design

Mike Mearls left we got Tasha’s and Monsters of the Multiverse

[still plover]

-# Bring back weapon initiative!

[umbral girder]

Crawford and Perkins around 2024’s opening life span

[humble cairn]

Eh .. I wouldn't draw direct lines between those two things, there's probably a lot behind the scenes we don't know.

[hidden spindle]

-# Unarmed Strike was the fastest right?

[steep creek]

what is that?

[umbral girder]

Or we give a sacrifice every few years for 5e’s continued life /jk

[humble cairn]

Leadership at Wizards of the Coast who retired from the company shortly after the 2024 update.

[umbral girder]

“D&D’s soul jar needs filling”

[steep creek]

is the company still alive after that?

[umbral girder]

Yes

[humble cairn]

Yes

[still plover]

-# Could have been, just thinking it'd be a potential weight on the scales of the "best weapon" debates.

[umbral girder]

WOTC leaders or D&D team leaders? Very notable difference

[humble cairn]

I don't honestly keep track of those details very closely, probably D&D.

[umbral girder]

Because WOTC is more than D&D after all

[limber trail]

crawford & perkins were lead designers on d&d iirc

I think game designer and game director maybe? I don't remember the exact titles

[hidden spindle]

-# I believe the optional Speed Factor Initiative emulated it a little bit

[crimson gulch]

the wizard last night, poked a beholder nest, dodged the first 6 eye rays. then caught a dead ray and got one shot

[umbral girder]

Wizard shenanigans

[flint ledge]

Who in their right mind pokes a beholder nest

[lean wigeon]

D&D i feel has been so ingrained in the mainstream that it's an immortalized brand name at this point

like roombas and bandaids and cleenex and whatever

[hollow stone]

yea, even if Hasbro puts WOTC down, people are still gonna play DND

[lean wigeon]

hasbro should put wotc up for sale so paizo can buy it and fix dnd :3

[crimson gulch]

bold assumptios, Right mind, nope. and they did not know it was a beholder nest either

[hollow stone]

there's like, granted like 5 people who aren't literally liches and vampires, but like 20 people who still play 3.5

[crimson gulch]

eww no

dnd does not need fixing, its at the top

[lean wigeon]

i'd argue 3.5e is still fairly popular

[feral fulcrum]

It at most, needs tweaking. There's nothing that truly needs 'fixing'.

[hollow stone]

absolutely not, putting it up for sale means it'll just get bought by some shell company that's like 6 degrees of ownership away from literally just being Amazon

[crimson gulch]

what i would love is Darrington press buying dnd from WOTC

[feral fulcrum]

Mmm, Dungeons&Warehouses:Advanced Slavery Edition.

[crimson gulch]

they still love dnd, i dont get that vibe from paizo

[hollow stone]

Wyverns and Warehouses lmao

[umbral girder]

Yeah Paizo made their game out of spite so I don’t know if it’s a good idea to let them get the game.

[feral fulcrum]

I'm going to be honest, with things like Spelljamers, and to a vastlysmaller Degreee with other released things, I think only some of WOTC actually cares about D&D

[hollow stone]

but yea, honestly all i see DND needing is to just like, get more writers to do more things and rework Ranger for the 70th time

[minor cargo]

Remember years ago when Elon Musk was saying that he wanted to buy D&D and it cause just the worst kind of people to start yelling and screaming? I feel like things changed a lot after that happened.

[umbral girder]

Wasn’t that last year?

[feral fulcrum]

That drug addict says alot of things at random that he doesn't actually mean.

[crimson gulch]

have you seen the interviews witn Dan Ayoub at gary con? hes in charge of dnd right now and he has an amazing outlook on things

[feral fulcrum]

Heck he even attempted to back out of the whole "Buy twitter" thing, and get his legs proverbially broken by lawyers.

[feral fulcrum]

I have not, but no amount of enthusiasm from the guys actually working on the products will change the misfortune that is being owned by Hasbro

[minor cargo]

November 2024, but yeah, not actually that long ago.
https://www.dexerto.com/gaming/elon-musk-hints-at-buying-hasbro-for-dd-after-announcing-ai-game-studio-2993666/

[crimson gulch]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B_hVJjAoFF0

its a really good one, i honestly feel like the Corpo Executive influence is gone

[feral fulcrum]

Hasbro can, will, and has been a driving force of alot of really bad decisions that's bitten WOTC in the rear.

[crimson gulch]

not just enthusiasum, but humility

[hollow stone]

WOTC should try seceding from hasbro to become their own state or smth i don't actually know how companies work

[crimson gulch]

That allmost happened with an investor revolt a few years ago

[feral fulcrum]

Do not encourage Corporate States, we don't need Company Towns But Worse.

Do not put that evil into the world.

[hollow stone]

it is true.

[undone rain]

Boy am i happy he didnt buy dnd

[hollow stone]

real talk the only thing i actually wanna see happen is faster content updates to 5.5 (2024? the website is hurting my brain :(

[umbral girder]

We getting one in a couple months

[hollow stone]

is it the grung? /j

[undone rain]

Getting a new class hopefully?

[umbral girder]

It’s Ravenloft

We getting the Frankenstein subclass for Artificer, Hexblood, Dhampir (maybe), Reborn, and Werewolf

[humble cairn]

Yes, D&D has become it's own subgenre of fantasy. There's fantasy and then there's very specific D&Disms.

[umbral girder]

Plus more things

[undone rain]

Sounds cool

[hollow stone]

i would really hope we get the current classes up to speed with each other before more classes get added, beridding the world of the horrid Nonmagical Differentiation That Will Only Ever Be Used To Hurt Martials was definitely huge but there could be many more

[lyric viper]

WotC is also responsible for saving D&D. They bought it from TSR when it was sinking. Kept on a majority of the staff out of respect, and the owners genuinely loved D&D

[feral fulcrum]

The only possible new class is Psion, and that's probably only gonna come at the end of the year.

If it makes the cut at all

[undone rain]

True, ranger does need a rework. Dont get me wrong its not an awful class, and that meme has been done to death. It just needs a small rework

[undone rain]

Lets hope so

Im a ranger defender forever

[hollow stone]

Hunter's Mark needs to be devoured and turned into Favored Foe again, or just make it a non concentration cantrip that only martials can get to be funny

[undone rain]

Aye i agree with that

[umbral girder]

Favored Foe was a way, way worse version of Hunter’s Mark

[undone rain]

How worse

[tribal night]

I just smashed a bear

it was the best thing ever

[umbral girder]

-Still concentration,
-small damage dice,
-cannot be moved to another enemy,
-lasts 1 minute,
-did not work with Extra attack (damage is once a round)

[undone rain]

Jeesh

[hollow stone]

yea, just buff it

[umbral girder]

It’s only benefit was needing no action to activate

[umbral girder]

Yeah the Buff is called Hunter’s Mark

[undone rain]

Even divine favor seems better

[feral fulcrum]

It's Concentration that truly makes Hunters Mark a Doodo Design Fail

[umbral girder]

Nah it’s fine

Ranger’s damage would go insane if that wasn’t stopping it

[minor cargo]

Two other classes that I think could work in 5E:

• Warlords (from 4E). Think of it like a "heavy armour bard". This one could focus on forced/unforced movement.
• Runeprieest (also from 4E). I never played it but the concept was so interesting to me. Basically, it's a "stance" class. Everytime you use a feature, you embue it with a rune. That then changes your "stance" and has other impacts to you (and you keep rotating through during a fight).

[hollow stone]

i just like Favored Foe because it was non magical

[umbral girder]

Especially on a resource that takes 0 slots to use

[feral fulcrum]

"You're a caster, you are actively dicentivised from using any concentration spells." "This is made doubly worse by tying Subclass features to HM being up."

[humble cairn]

Tasha's Favored Foe was terrible.

[feral fulcrum]

Well, not a full caster, but the point is you Do have other Concentration spells you'd like to use without having to give up subclass features.

[humble cairn]

The only official subclass we have right now that heavily uses HM is Winter Walker.

[atomic kayak]

And you dont "give up" anything either

[humble cairn]

Everyone else is fine basically ignoring after Tier 1. The Tier 1 uses of Favored Enemy '24 are great.

[feral fulcrum]

And the UA for Hollow Warden, which is highly likely to be dropping in the upcoming book

[humble cairn]

Yes, like I said the only official subclass that uses it is Winter Walker.

[atomic kayak]

Warlord to me is too much in the lane of both fighter and bard stuff (hello valor bard)

But runepriest (or at least, the concept. I would like to avoid the headache of discussion that comes up whenever people talk about runes in dnd lol)

[feral fulcrum]

And I was pointing out that it's likely to very very soon, become Two official subclasses :V

[undone rain]

Random question, which classes have been around the longest. Which classes have been in dnd since the start

[feral fulcrum]

Fighter, basically

[umbral girder]

Something that isn’t even out

[atomic kayak]

And even outside of t1 it has plenty of use

Partially because you well. Get a ton of uses of it. Drop it when you have something better you want to do. Its literally a bunch of free charges.

It also means you always have something to do

[undone rain]

Not sorcerer or wizard

[humble cairn]

From actually playing Ranger and even now getting into almost Tier 4, I honestly am not bothered by Hunter's Mark.

[umbral girder]

Fighterman, Cleric, and Magic user were the og 3 classes.

[viral kraken]

i think fighting man, thief, and mage? not 100% sure

[atomic kayak]

Fighting Man, Magic User, Priest, and Thief

Which roughly translate to fighter wizard cleric and rogue

[umbral girder]

Thief was a few years later.

[viral kraken]

ah thanks

[minor cargo]

Totally fair. I think 4E classes could really shine in 5E in terms of concept, either as classes or subclasses like you pointed out.

Another class-turned-subclass that I think would be rad is the Avenger. Basically, cloth-armoured paladin. That's rad as hell.

[feral fulcrum]

Theif wasn't really a thing in the OG stuff, as the earliest D&D stuff was basically an offshoot of Wargaming.

[undone rain]

Damn.

[feral fulcrum]

Which is where Magic Missile actually stems from infact, as it was just a Generic Magical Projectile the caster could use.

[undone rain]

Did paladin start as like a subclass for fighter?

[umbral girder]

Yes

It’s funny that Fighter was originally called Fighterman.

[atomic kayak]

Its people overreacting primarily

But the fact that many of the same people were also completely fine entirely writing off the entire favored enemy and favored terrain features (which in the vast majority of cases, were either useless or way less useful than this favored enemy HM stuff [with the same # of features dedicated to it as those]) feels... hypocritical. To put it mildly

[undone rain]

That is a funny af name tbh

[atomic kayak]

Despite those features also being core feature of the ranger class that the class was designed around (again: so many class feature levels dedicated to them)

[undone rain]

Oh damn paladin became its own class in 2014

[cobalt escarp]

we should name every class like that "im playing a healerman and talkingman multiclass"

[undone rain]

Lmao "im playing a barbarianman"

[umbral girder]

Angryman

[undone rain]

Pactman

[umbral girder]

Knightman

[cobalt escarp]

animalman

[umbral girder]

Wildman

[cobalt escarp]

oathman

[undone rain]

Magicman

[cobalt escarp]

makingman

[undone rain]

Hunterman

[lavish flame]

Wizards used to be Magic Users, which I always thought was fun

[cobalt escarp]

punchman

[undone rain]

Im running out of names

Divineman

[umbral girder]

Fun fact for 5e warlock and sorcerer were subclasses in its UA.

[cobalt escarp]

stealingman

[umbral girder]

Subclasses for the Mage class

Which eventually became the Wizard.

[undone rain]

Lmao now thats smth

[umbral girder]

Rangers got triple all damage on Crits in the UA too

[cobalt escarp]

wizard and sorcerer are so similar, i can see it

[umbral girder]

Rangers in the D&D Next playtest is the most crazy strong Ranger 5e ever had.

[undone rain]

I like that many classes started out as subclasses for the og 3

[umbral girder]

They went big then nerfed it hard for 2014 official release

[cobalt escarp]

god forbid martial classes are good

[umbral girder]

Bard was a Half Caster in the UA too

[undone rain]

Im not surprised paladins been here for long but i am surprised it finally got its own class in 2014

[cobalt escarp]

what was it before?

[crimson gulch]

paladin has been a class for decades

[undone rain]

Subclass for fighter

Or "fighterman"

[umbral girder]

Could have sworn Paladin was a 3.5e class

And 2e

[undone rain]

Hold on lemme check

[umbral girder]

2e I know Ranger became a class

[naive cedar]

Paladin has been around since like 1e

[cobalt escarp]

i thought rangers would be newer than that

[crimson gulch]

in adnd 1e and 2e its a fighter variant and in 3e its a full own class

[undone rain]

Ah i see my bad

[umbral girder]

No Rangers are old and a core part of D&D due to the the flagship character of Drizzt Do’Urdon from the 1980s

[undone rain]

Damn google

[umbral girder]

Ranger has been around for a long while

[cobalt escarp]

were they better before?

[umbral girder]

They had been iffy for decades with a single exception

4e rangers are considered its best showing

[hollow stone]

homebrew 4e rangers into 5.75e

[umbral girder]

It’s way too different of a system and what made it good would be bad in 5e

It’s tied to 4e’s power system

Which doesn’t fit the asymmetry of the classes 5e has.

[hollow stone]

:(

[umbral girder]

In 4e every class had the exact equal amount of resources and abilities which 5e doesn’t really have.

[reef tundra]

-# Also Ranger is perfectly fine in all versions of 5e bite me

[umbral girder]

That too

[red steppe]

blade cascade is peak

[humble cairn]

Ranger is, and has been, great actually.

[red steppe]

i wish they had a power/spell called "Hunter's Mark", it allows them to mark an enemy for more damage without needing concentration and could freely move the mark to another target once the original target has died

[humble cairn]

Even in 2014 Ranger worked fine despite badly designed features.

[umbral girder]

Yep

[humble cairn]

They tested out various versions of non-concentration Hunter's Mark for years and at least three times with public playtests. It never tested well.

[red steppe]

Elaborate

[umbral girder]

It would be stupid strong

That long duration for all those buffs is wild even crazier when stacked with their subclass features and other spells.

[humble cairn]

What more elaboration do you need? They released various versions of Ranger over the years in public playtests, a number of them with HM non-conc, and they never made any of them official based on the results they got from playtests. I can't really tell you the exact results or feedback on those playtests, they never made those public.

[red steppe]

ic

[humble cairn]

The internet is obsessed with "Hunter's Mark bad" as a subset of "Ranger bad" but I honestly feel if people just gave it an honest try they would see different.

[halcyon forum]

non of the versions they tested removed concentration at higher ranger levels Iirc

[humble cairn]

Do I think Hunter's Mark is great? No, but it's not even bad, it's just not the solution to every problem because it's not meant to be!

[humble cairn]

Some of them removed concentration entirely.

[halcyon forum]

exactly, thats the problem

they didnt test the obvious solution

[umbral girder]

Plus the devs don’t like stacking too many stuff at once based on their 2024 changes. (Understandable)

[woven flint]

Hello, friends

Wait a moment, my name isn't fitting for today

[umbral girder]

A few dozen more matron mothers for you

[halcyon forum]

I wouldnt mind HM so much if the base class and some subclasses wasnt full of little features that build on it. The moment you dont want to use the spell, you have so many dead features

[woven flint]

There we go!

[crystal latch]

Hunter's Mark would be fine as a non-concentration spell

[robust fable]

Nah. It would still be bad

[crystal latch]

OK fair

I meant "fine" as in "not broken"

But yeah it would still suck compared to goodberry

[halcyon forum]

I think there is some concern with dipping Ranger for damage stacking if its just non-conc

[thorn wedge]

Idk, it’d be basically free damage if it wasn’t concentration.

[crystal latch]

Free damage except it costs a Shield/Goodberry slot to use and a bonus action to reapply each time

[halcyon forum]

so removing conc as a later level ranger feature seems like a good compromise

[robust fable]

No there is not. It uses your ba to move between targets which competes with your CBE attack

And it still costs a spell slot!

[light cape]

good timezones everyone

[humble cairn]

I'm sure there was more testing behind the scenes and also why is that the "obvious" solution?

[crystal latch]

Bearing in mind that 2014 Spiritual Weapon is mathematically worse than upcast 2014 Healing Word, I don't see Hunter's Mark - effectively (attack roll hit chance x number of attacks x 3.5) damage per round - being impressive on a list that also gets Goodberry

[thorn wedge]

Ye, but assuming the combat lasts more than a couple rounds that has to be at least potentially worth it. More likely to be worth it the longer combat lasts, the more attacks you make per turn, more often you hit, etc.

[umbral girder]

Ranger gets free Hunter’s mark uses and spell slots at level 1 now.

[halcyon forum]

because the main issue of HM is that it locks you out of most of your other spellcasting, and the main issue of conc free HM is ranger dips or low level HM becoming a bit too obviously good.

[humble cairn]

The moment you put on armor as a Barbarian you aren't using your Unarmored Defense. And there were just as many uses of Favored Enemy that were "dead" as soon as you weren't fighting the thing you were especially hateful toward.

[halcyon forum]

unarmored defense is one tiny little level 1 feature, and putting on medium armor doesnt interfere with anything Barbarians does.

[crystal latch]

Unarmored defense is just something that pretends to compensate for not wearing armor

[halcyon forum]

favored enemy was terrible

[feral fulcrum]

I'm not exactly sure why you're comparing an Attack spell to a healing spell.

[humble cairn]

Hunter's Mark only "locks" you out of your spellcasting if it is direct competition for it, which for the most part isn't true. HM is used only for single target attack enhancement. If you're not in the situation where you want to be doing that you use other things!

[crystal latch]

Killing enemies faster = less expected damage taken

[rough basalt]

thats why they give you free casts = to pb bonus

so you can use HM when its useful

[hollow stone]

i think it should have its own Concentration, right? like the whole "if somebody punches you in the throat, roll a DC10 Con save and if you fail it's gone" but it doesn't take your Concentration slot

[halcyon forum]

thats a silly argument. Anything that requires concentration is direct competition with other conc stuff

[humble cairn]

I think people are just .. objecting to the idea of Hunter's Mark?

[crystal latch]

Hunter's Mark not existing would also be cool

Its only worthwhile niche is boosting dhampir bite damage in downtime

[halcyon forum]

I object to a mid spell taking up a ton of design space for a class that cant afford that, yes

[humble cairn]

Yeah but if you want to Control enemies, you don't want to be using HM because it doesn't do that. Why are we approaching this like we want to have HM up all the time?

[halcyon forum]

I object to clunky and frustrating design decisions

[thorn wedge]

Hunters mark without concentration is a d6 of damage per landed attack for an hour at the cost of a level 1 spell slot. I think in longer combats that is pretty good, especially if you’re making a lot of attacks that are likely to hit.

[feral fulcrum]

Basing a not insubstantial amount of a class around a single level one spell was certainly a choice, and a very odd one.

[halcyon forum]

like the new artificer subclass? its terrible alone because it forces you to use a spell long past its usefulness

[crystal latch]

In a combat with a higher number of meaningful rounds, you're less likely to be able to spend your concentration on something that contributes merely a tiny amount of damage

[robust fable]

4 rounds is quite average for a combat

Lets say you are playing a CBE+SS Ranger, lvl 5

You cast Hunter's Mark durning your first turn and you never need to switch targets:

The enemy has 15 ac

No Hunter's Mark: 20.9 dpr
With Hunter's Mark: 25.7125 dpr

It resaults in less than +5 dpr

Thats like half of what you would expect from a first level spell

[halcyon forum]

HM could be 2d12 damage on a hit and I would still hate its design

[humble cairn]

The level at which it's very useful you get a nice feature to use it more often. Later in levels you get some benefits to it when the spell itself is often not your best choice, but in actual play I got my use out of the spell that I wanted and not using it doesn't bother me because I have so many other tools that are useful and impactful now.

[hollow stone]

actually, make HM upcast on more dicd instead of time so we don't have two Hexes

[robust fable]

And the assumptions favor Hunter's Mark

[humble cairn]

Either way, Ranger works great. Hunter's Mark isn't as great as the class itself and could stand for improvement, but the class itself works great despite the not-the-best-but-still-okay spell.

[crystal latch]

My expectation for the instantaneous damage of a good level X spell is (2X+2)dN damage, where N depends on ease of positioning its AoE, +50% if it's a single-target spell
If it's an AoE that deals constant damage, (X+1)dN to affected targets per round

[covert trail]

Hi

[tawdry sentinel]

Rangers seem perfectly fine in the games I run and play in.

[reef tundra]

Ah, I see someone decided to strike up the debate

[crystal latch]

Ranger is good especially in 2014
2024 nerfed it more than was needed

[reef tundra]

Ranger is fine in both versions, bite me

[humble cairn]

2024 Ranger feels very very good to me in play, better than 2014 Ranger.

[limber trail]

I really wanna play a ranger at some point

[halcyon forum]

okay it doesnt bother you that a big part of the ranger class is badly designed and you can just ignore it, great. I'd like a well designed thing that doest make me mad whenever I look at the features on my character sheet and see their friction with each other. Literally no other core class has these issues.

and Ranger does not work great btw. it basically stops scaling in tier 2. its one of the few classes that doesnt get any defensive upgrades to saving throws in tier 3 and 4, and basically no damage boosts either with rare

ive played the class a lot

[crystal latch]

2014 ranger's spell list was better and spell list is 90% of the overall power of just about any class

[humble cairn]

2014 Ranger mechanically worked, but there were some negative gameplay things I found. Natural Explorer was a very "DM may I?" type feature and I found myself asking about it so often I even annoyed myself.

[light cape]

i like hunters mark big numbers go brrrr

[halcyon forum]

Tashas ranger was peak ranger, and it still had a lots of issues

[humble cairn]

It works great for me, sorry that hasn't been the experience for you.

[crystal latch]

2014 ranger was the best half-caster in the system and was good enough to hold its own monoclassed in mid-high op up to level 9-13 or so

[humble cairn]

Primeval Awareness was hot trash in terms of game design and the Tasha's replacement was very much a bandaid.

[reef tundra]

I am fine with debates, I am fine with differing opinions, but straight up saying someone else doesn’t know the game supposedly as much as you do and thus their opinion on a class is invalid? That crosses a line

[halcyon forum]

I just wish you could see that just because the issues dont bother you, that doesnt mean they are not valid

[reef tundra]

Or you put your money where you mouth is and see that your own opinion is also subjective

[humble cairn]

It's not like I'm not using the class effectively nor that my DM isn't challenging me. So my experience is different from yours and also valid.

[red steppe]

ranking classes based on feels and vibes instead of viability moment

[atomic kayak]

It worked mechanically but the biggest (and most common) complaints for it came from its 2 core class defining features being entirely reliant on the DM yea.

[crystal latch]

Hunter's Mark discourse in early 5e notably proved that you could print a perfect copy of the wizard class but additionally give them greatsword proficiency and surprisingly many people would say it's bad because you need high Str and thus can't afford the Int to cast spells

[atomic kayak]

It was simply a "feelsbad" situation when the class ties so many of its things to two features that were entirely reliant on the DM to see any usage

Notably, 2024 ranger doesn't actually have this issue.

[humble cairn]

I got Ranger 13 and I'm not using the "can't break my HM conc with damage" but even so I just got 4th level spells, and that is not a dead level lemme tell you.

[robust fable]

"but they are so MAD! You meed STR for attacks, CON for hp, DEX for ac and INT for spells!"

[crystal latch]

Also everyone saying PHB beast master was always better than Battle Master is double vindicated now with the discovery of selfpet tech

[faint thicket]

What is tied to favored enemy and terrain?

[humble cairn]

What is "selfpet tech" may I ask?

[atomic kayak]

A very large number of the class feature ability levels.

[robust fable]

A Beast Master can become their own Companion

[halcyon forum]

this has nothing to do with subjectivity. I never said that people couldnt have fun with ranger despite its flaws.

[limber trail]

I will say that from the ranger debate, a lot of folks who play and run more DnD, or who have been playing running DnD for longer, especially pro DMs, usually tend to argue that ranger is strong and viable. So I generally skew towards optimism for the class. I don’t have any personal experience to back it up but I do know that folks who have more experience actually playing around it say it’s solid.

[crystal latch]

Selfpet is when you find a way to become your own animal companion

[faint thicket]

I literally can't think of one?

[humble cairn]

... but why?

[atomic kayak]

Then look at the table of features? Its very straightforward

[crystal latch]

Animal companions get significant bonuses to a bunch of different rolls

[humble cairn]

This is the 2014 Ranger.

[robust fable]

Because it makes you stronger?

[tawdry sentinel]

So numbers can go brrrr instead of playing the game.

[faint thicket]

And it leads to some funny things like adding prof to ac, damage rolls, and skills and saves (attacks is a bit iffy)

[red steppe]

2014 ranger is strong and viable, yes, i agree

[crystal latch]

+PB to all damage rolls (including spell damage rolls) on a class with Spike Growth

[humble cairn]

But ... people who want to play Beast Master do so because they want a pet!

[robust fable]

Add your proficiency bonus to the beast's AC, attack rolls, and damage rolls, as well as to any saving throws and skills it is proficient in.

You can use your action to verbally command it to take the Attack, Dash, Disengage, or Help action. If you don't issue a command, the beast takes the Dodge action. Once you have the Extra Attack feature, you can make one weapon attack yourself when you command the beast to take the Attack action. (This gives you +1 attack per turn)

[red steppe]

do u think it'd benefit from having scorpion armor on (the one that gives u a flat +5 to initiative?)

[crystal latch]

Custom Lineage (manul) who is his own cat, this is optimal now

[reef tundra]

If we’re all moving to optimal builds about it, then I’d love to point to #optimization pls <3

[lavish flame]

Level 1 you get it, Level 3 Primeval Awareness plays off Natural Explorer, level 6, level 10, level 14, and level 20

[faint thicket]

It's literally just two

[atomic kayak]

Its not

[humble cairn]

I'm playing a Beast Master right now and having the time of my life, the idea of simply making myself my own companion for the buffs is so not fun sounding.

[viral kraken]

but if you use a BA to command yourself to attack, then you have to spend the action attacking still same as the companion would

[limber trail]

This feels like an optimization conversation and not at all how actual people play real DnD

[faint thicket]

Maybe

[light cape]

i really actually like hunters mark and what it does for the character i find it somewhat useful and I can use it for a lot of things

[red steppe]

I've heard about it having a slight issue with initiative but idk if i was reading it wrong

gift of alacrity should suffice i think

[atomic kayak]

1,6,10,14, and then 20 as well because foe slayer is linked to favored enemy

[reef tundra]

Every class is fine, let people enjoy the game

[faint thicket]

That's fine, fun is subjective after all. Personally I actually really want to play this and even have an idea for a character for this

[humble cairn]

Having an autonomous companion commanded by my BA is already really fun and allows me to do fun stuff like give myself more movement (companion grapples me and I voluntarilyt fail the save) and extra actions (I had my companion an object and now I can use that object twice on my turn).

[atomic kayak]

Every time

[halcyon forum]

enjoying the game and wanting better design are not mutually exclusive

[hollow stone]

making oneself their own companion sounds like a really funny joke but not actually an optimal play, like "My companions kept dying on me, so to prevent simply feeding more foxes to the dungeon, I have elected to designate myself as my animal companion."

[still plover]

Mark your bingo cards!

[lavish flame]

5.5 rectified a lot of my issues with the classes

[atomic kayak]

Varies with the season

[crystal latch]

I love the fact that selfpet tech ranger makes beast master the new best ranger
Gloom being dethroned is a cool development

[thorn wedge]

The inherent problem with optimization in DnD is that encounters usually aren’t set in stone from the onset of the game, most dms adjust difficulty on party strength, the stronger you make yourself the harder they make the game to compensate. It doesn’t actually achieve anything.

[reef tundra]

Well some people don’t want it pushed in their faces how bad something they enjoy is

[faint thicket]

Honestly the discovery of this tech felt like an elaborate joke that kept myself and the other discoverer up all night

[red steppe]

Its a good moment when the meta doesn't get stale in a ttrpg

[humble cairn]

I still hold that "best/worst" class/subclass comparisons are unhelpful and toxic.

[reef tundra]

#optimization

[lyric viper]

Indeed I think this is a good time to remind folk we have #optimization for a reason.

[crystal latch]

This is not true at all, if for no other reason that DMs do not have perfect mathematical, tactical and balancing ability

[atomic kayak]

It literally is true lol

[halcyon forum]

i dont get it, all the media I consume is flawed. I never have an issue with acknowledging those flaws

[faint thicket]

Eh, beating harder challenges is fun for some people. I enjoy fighting against things that would kill most parties

[lyric viper]

If folk want to seek out optimisation advice and crunch those numbers, they can opt into that conversation by going to #optimization

[lavish flame]

Additionally, the idea of finding "tech" in D&D like how you do in Video Game Speedrunning just feels like you're playing the game in poor faith

[robust fable]

Like half the races in this game are some kind of humanoid animals!

Thats so thematic!

Yes im a Beast Master! Yes im a BEAST! 🐻

[atomic kayak]

So much optimizing falls apart as soon as a real DM is involved. But yea #optimization exists for a reason

[red steppe]

Caracals that can meow >>>>

[lyric viper]

So I think it's best to move on from this topic as it's derailed.

[hollow stone]

anyhow, back to HM being kinda bad: what if they got rid of upcasting on duration and instead make it so you can hold concentration on another spell of an inferior level while holding concentration on Hunter's Mark?

[atomic kayak]

Rocks fall

[thorn wedge]

I think balance is good to help everyone feel strong in ways, I don’t think there’s anything wrong with some mild power gaming. I just don’t think there’s much point in optimizing only for the perceived difficulty to remain the same.

[red steppe]

The ppl ur talking to have actually DM'd multiple times before btw

[light cape]

i think that might be a good idea

[lavish flame]

Idk if upcasting Hunter's Mark would be the fix imo. I kinda think there should be more Mark spells like how there's a bunch of Smite spells

[woven flint]

Ehhh..
Then full casters might get pissy about the idea

[reef tundra]

Negativity can be so suffocating. Let’s move to a positive topic, shall we?

[thorn wedge]

Not needed, most DMs go by feel anyway. If it feels too easy, they bump it up, especially for big fights. I know I do.

[cosmic roost]

https://media-waterdeep.cursecdn.com/attachments/0/828/c2-16.png

[light cape]

having concentration on it is hard for a class that doesnt really have optimized use of concentration reactions

[lavish flame]

You do anything fun in D&D recently?

[red steppe]

wdym

[light cape]

im making a campaign

[reef tundra]

My players one-shot a boss. I was genuinely so happy for them!

[lyric viper]

Time for a topic change!

[viral kraken]

my party used wish for the first time recently, and really gave me a gift with the wording of it

[light cape]

trying to kink out everything rn

[reef tundra]

That’s wonderful to hear!

[lavish flame]

My Eberron group just met one of our campaign villains, The Jade Hand (a Death Knight with the Hand of Vecna). That was a really cool time.

[reef tundra]

Is this your first time making one?

[woven flint]

My Drow Warlock of Eilistraee is going to face Menzobarranzan again after having escaped a hundred or so years of his life ago lol

[hollow stone]

what topic are we trying to change from? i just wanna hypothesize better hunter marks :(

[light cape]

making one yes running one no

[limber trail]

I’ve got a session tomorrow. It’ll be a pretty fun one, I think. My party are recoiling from a dire attack, left alone in the mud-covered ruins with hordes of undead giants on the way. I wonder how they’ll make their way out of this one.

[reef tundra]

A death knight with the hand of Vecna? That’s metal af

[jolly canyon]

Homwbrew cause I haven't seen that one in the books?(I'm running eberron for my group)

[lavish flame]

Yeah, we've previously met The Jade Eye, who was a Lich with an Eye of Vecna

[lavish flame]

Homebrew villain, yeah

[jolly canyon]

Nice!

[reef tundra]

Uh oh, sounds like you guys gotta keep those two far apart

[light cape]

long story short the campaign i ran last time was a world that was switched between dms when the sotry of one dm ended

[reef tundra]

Like very far apart

[woven flint]

The dm and I have been discussing about the Matron mother of his former house.

So, not only Is he going to have to go back to the place his sister was murdered...
He also has to face his mother lol

[red steppe]

i've been planning to make an adventurer's league module with Deadly x1 as the default difficulty, i'll have it start around T2 cuz T1 is hell imo

[lavish flame]

I think they've got ties to The Emerald Claw (the Eberron faction), but I'm still playing through the story and thus don't know yet.

[light cape]

so basically I was the third dm to come into the world and change it

[atomic kayak]

Thatd track

[lavish flame]

Woah you're doing ur own AL stuff?

[reef tundra]

Well, I wish you good luck and great fun with this new one! I’m sure you’ll do great!

[light cape]

thanks

[jolly canyon]

I have a homebrew bad guy also using death knight ||king Kaius 3rd after he gets assassinated|| lol character name spoiler but the thing is a homebrew event.

He just a regular death knight tho

[lavish flame]

woah, we just recently met that guy in our game! he was bad juju so we fled his country

[jolly canyon]

Oh you're the player? Not the dm? I'm glad I didn't say anything then

[lavish flame]

I know enough about the Eberron setting to know who/what he is (artwork for him doesn't exactly do him any favors)

[civic bramble]

Know if anyone is in the character channels currently atm?

[jolly canyon]

I know!!! I have my own head canon about how he looks amd he's much cooler in my mind

[woven flint]

Lord of Blades, my beloved

[reef tundra]

Man I love the Lord of Blades

[jolly canyon]

Can't wait till my group meets him too

[woven flint]

Stand proud, Clanker, you are strong!

[atomic kayak]

Hey now he's totally fine ||and only maybe a vampire according to KB||

The theories (in universe and metatextually) about him are so funny to me

[viral kraken]

the sequel to lord of the rings? no what is lord of the blades? that sounds like a wild title

[atomic kayak]

||I am my own dad type stuff happening fr||

[atomic kayak]

Short version? Warforged cult messiah

[still plover]

Sure, throw what you've got.

[jolly canyon]

In mine his grandfather ||King Kaius 1st|| absolutely is a Vampire working for ||lady Ilmarrow?|| and he is the one who killed the 2nd and 3rd turning them into soldiers and making himself stronger.

[atomic kayak]

Nice

[woven flint]

Lord of Blades is an Evil warforged fellow in Eberron.

He's got his own Statblock!

He looks like absolute hell to fight.

[viral kraken]

sounds very cool, i only really got to play around in eberron in 4e and only briefly

[jolly canyon]

Does the Kill Purple worm Lord of Blades have any differences in stats??

[woven flint]

I wouldn't know tbh..
I don't have that book lol

[lavish flame]

His skin is green how on earth does anyone think he's just a regular guy

[jolly canyon]

Yea curious if anyone knows

[hollow stone]

you could make his blades have Purple Worm Venom

[atomic kayak]

Karrnath moment

[jolly canyon]

U right

[atomic kayak]

People are just funky sometimes!

[jolly canyon]

They do be starving on the regular

[atomic kayak]

(Also really considering gestures vaguely a lot about eberron "green human looking guy" isnt that weird)

Obligatory "a traditional tiefling in Sharn is more likely to be mistaken for a weird looking minotaur or something and then not given extra thought"

[jolly canyon]

I'm still super early so I have to decide which cr20 bbeg will be my main bbeg and I'm pretty sure it'll be the lich. Lord of Blades is like cr 18 so I can do both thankfully. Likely won't get far enough to fight the cr28

[woven flint]

Lmao

"While all can agree the Lord of Blades must be a powerful and charismatic leader of the warforged, their opinions differed. Some speak of him as a teacher and philosopher, even a visionary or messiah, while many more others perceive him to be a power-mad tyrannical warlord, self-proclaimed prophet, and racist psychopathic abomination bent on founding a warforged empire and challenging other nations for control of all of Khorvaire."

[still plover]

Khanjar the Sharp.

[jolly canyon]

His artwork is so dope lol

[atomic kayak]

This is part of why I specified "cult" lol

[woven flint]

He looks like he's built to kill Gods lol

[civic bramble]

Would that not be prejudiced? If I were correct, were the Warforged not enslaved themselves or is that a misconception?

[robust fable]

This is not related to optimization!

Potential flavors for the Beast Master Ranger who's Companion is themselves:

You are cursed with Lycantropy
You were raised by animals
You were polymorped into an animal for years
You were an animal but you got turned into a human
You are an awakaned animal (reflavor something like Tabaxi as an awakaned lynx etc.)
You have something sealed inside of you (Yuji from JJK, Jinchūriki from Naruto etc.)
You are like Bruce Benner and Hulk

[still plover]

Symbiote?

[woven flint]

Well...
It all comes down to technicality.
Warforged WEREN'T enslaved, but they were created to work and made to work.
They were liberated of their services at some point though, so I dunno

[jolly canyon]

Flavor Optimisation!!!

[reef tundra]

You know what? that’s actually pretty cool. I love lycanthropes!

-# Shifter and blood hunter sadly are the closest I’ll get to playing one :(

[robust fable]

That also works!

There are a lot of options with this

[crystal latch]

Because you have to command yourself to act, you could be a flawed cyborg whose magitech components require command words to activate

[civic bramble]

It’s kind of like the “liberator/unhinged dissident trope”. Those who walk it ride a very fine line between appearing like a hero and appearing like a monster.

Makes sense that the only things that are agreed upon about the Lord of Blades are objective fact, in that case.

[woven flint]

"During the Last War, House Cannith played a major role through arms dealing but it was in 965 YK that they would create their greatest weapon. The first batch of warforged was created in Cannith's forgehold at Whitehearth in Cyre by Aaren d'Cannith. The warforged were supplied to all of the warring nations of Khorvaire to aid their war efforts, but particularly Breland, Cyre, and Thrane.

In 996 YK, the warforged were set free and given equal rights by the Treaty of Thronehold. This was somewhat traumatic for the warforged who were accustomed to having a single purpose with orders and instructions."

So, it seems that a lot pf them were struggling to adjust to the change

I think they just kinda viewed their existence kinda.. as is

[faint thicket]

Genuinely I am more interested in the flavor of this tech than the stats

It's just cool to me

And nothing else really gives me this same vibe

[atomic kayak]

Warforged are a case of "we the players know exactly what they are in the world but in universe what they are known and perceived as varies"

[jolly canyon]

Yea they are treated poorly in eberron. There is a councilor in sharn who keeps trying to pass laws to classify them as property

[woven flint]

The sad thing is, there's a huge population of Warforged that are just.. friendly and want to help

[atomic kayak]

Sharn: the city of mundane nightmares

[minor cargo]

"Quiet dystopia".

[jolly canyon]

Yea most of them work the cogs and are nice with some exceptions(many those warforge who are apart of the LoB cult)

[atomic kayak]

(Its what happens when you take the vibe of 1920s americana large cities and make it More™️)

[jolly canyon]

We started in sharn but want to explore more of the world so it's not a sharn campaign.

I would totally do one tho

[woven flint]

"Despite the warforged's peaceful nature, many citizens of the Five Nations see them as reminders of a dark past. Some still see them as implements of destruction, killing machines and equipment made in the form of a man, and see them as a danger that must either be destroyed or removed from society. "

:<

[civic bramble]

In a way, I guess to make a parallel, this kind of reminds me of the African-American struggle. In the antebellum period many of said people struggled to have a well-defined identity due to a wide variety of factors. The process of building one itself took well around 150 years anyway, hence why I find the analogy intellectually stimulating and fascinating.

[jolly canyon]

Yea LoB and his cult seem to be a fan favorite for the setting

[woven flint]

In every campaign I've been in where there has been warforged, I always made it a point for my characters to always be kind to them as their suffering breaks my heart 😔

I had a Shifter Twilight Cleric of Dol Arrah.
We were on a lightning rail with a few warforged individuals, whenever it was breakfast, lunch, etc, whatever time of the day, he always went to the storage car to talk to them as he ate

He was a good-natured individual in general, but being a Shifter he found it hard to relate with other non-beastfolk humanoids

[humble cairn]

Hmm .. it might be interesting to play a character who is afraid of them because of the war. Could be an interesting character development arc.

[jolly canyon]

Agreed. As long as it doesn't devolve to in character abuse because "it's what my character would do!" Then yea I would love to see a character group dynamic like that

[humble cairn]

Certainly it would be something to discussduring Session 0 and character creation, before even bringing such a character into the game.

[woven flint]

The campaign took place 20 years after Cyre was destroyed, he lived there with his Brother when they were children, they escaped.. but he never held the destruction of his homeland against them

"Its not the fault of the soldier following orders to live another day, but the fault of the man who compels him."

[jolly canyon]

20 years is nice. I was flirting with the idea of 50 - 100 years but decided to just make it the year the book states. 4 years after Cyre went boom. 2 years after the war I think is the base timeline 🤔

[red steppe]

if you cast mordekainen's disjunction on a warforged, do they immediately get annihilated

[woven flint]

20 years was enough for it to still be a wound for most normal lifespan humanoids to remember, but also enough to try and heal

[jolly canyon]

Yup!!

[viral kraken]

just unassembled and reverted to the component materials right?

[humble cairn]

Is a creature a legal target for Mordenkainen's disjunction?

[viral kraken]

i think in the editions it was in it could target a construct, i could check if you'd like

[woven flint]

Gosh, I wouldn't want to do that to them 😭

[red steppe]

i feel like warforged are sentient magic items with nystul's + permanency on them

[humble cairn]

I mean more simply they are self willed creatures.

[red steppe]

how'd they obtain sentience?

[woven flint]

Warforged are indeed LIVING Constructs

[humble cairn]

It's a deliberate mystery of the setting, but they do have it, and souls too.

So the canon answer is "it's up to your group and DM."

[atomic kayak]

There's been plenty of concepts thrown around by KB. But much like other things in Eberron, its a mystery intentionally left open ended

[viral kraken]

it seems like disjunction would end any magic effect upon them (and everything else in the aoe), which i assume would be very bad for them

[red steppe]

i see, Primus is this your doing

[humble cairn]

I mean in the current rules they can exist in an antimagic field just fine.

[woven flint]

"A living construct was a type of construct that combined elements of animated constructs and living creatures. They possessed free will and sentience given to them by the complex and potent magic employed in their creation."

[atomic kayak]

Unlikely considering Eberron is cut off from the larger multiverse generally speaking

[red steppe]

oh they're like pseudo golems

[crimson gulch]

we have 2 non ebberon campaigns that go there or have folks from there so i dont think its that far away really

[viral kraken]

idk how antimagic fields affected warforged in elder editions. i'm glad that we don't have disjunction in 5e

[woven flint]

Golems with actual complex thoughts, emotions and POTENTIALLY artificial souls

[humble cairn]

I think the devs confirmed they totally do have souls.

[red steppe]

nothing stops you from going there unlike Dark Sun's setting

[red steppe]

damn

[jolly canyon]

EE is third party but it is by Keith Baker so I tend to view it as legit impo. I like it's take on Warforge

[humble cairn]

So even in 5E, which resists defining what is "canon" in many situations has firmly established that Warforged canonically have souls.

[woven flint]

Notably, it's still a mystery and a philosophical question to the warforged people if they DO have souls

It's something even they deliberate over

[jolly canyon]

Plus is just a banger sourcebook so why wouldn't I

[humble cairn]

Right, as it would be for anyone else in setting.

[viral kraken]

in dnd how can it remain a mystery for long if something has a soul or not? can't someone ask a devil or something if they have any warforged soul coins?

[stoic haven]

I actually enjoy playing this out, as even it is said that they DO have souls, the idea could still be foreign to some and maybe to the character themselves questioning it

[woven flint]

Well, Eberron has its own set of planes and fiends work differently there

[viral kraken]

ah

[humble cairn]

Because Eberron is a different setting, not sure if they have the whole Nine Hells thing with soul coins, and also Warforged are very recent. Recent enough that they don't even know what their lifespan might be.

[atomic kayak]

This is not mutually exclusive with what I said.

Largely cut off =/= entirely

It very explicitly is difficult to reach

[stoic haven]

Most interesting I've seen is Echo Knight Warforged

[jolly canyon]

Sorry that dang auto react is so obnoxious lol but I agree with Hermes. My warforge char idea he has an armblade and refuses to use it cause it reminds him that he's a construct and uses home made wooded and stone warhammer and wooden shield. (Oath if ancients)

[woven flint]

Here's Eberrons nine hells:

https://eberron.fandom.com/wiki/Baator

[minor cargo]

Something else that may or may not complicate this is that resurrection spells in 2024 (e.g. Raise Dead and Resurrection) no longer mention souls.

Raise Dead 2024: https://www.dndbeyond.com/spells/2618922-raise-dead
Raise Dead 2014: https://www.dndbeyond.com/spells/2224-raise-dead

[stoic haven]

Who's echo was his perceived self, which changed throughout campaign

[atomic kayak]

Ah the 4e attempt to give eberron all the "normal" dnd stuff

Notably, not a thing anymore

[woven flint]

Devils and such do exist, so does Asmodeus there as well..
But its a being CALLING themselves Asmodeus

So who knows the validity

[atomic kayak]

Aka this "baator" is not a part of canon (nor ever was part of kanon) eberron lore

[jolly canyon]

Idek who baator is

[woven flint]

Ah, so, my mistake lol 😭

Nevermind then, folks, ignore that

I think Exploring Eberron has some really nice things about the Planes in it, if any of you have it

[lavish flame]

Yeah, whether or not Warforged have a soul is not called into question. The question is "where the hell did it come from?" because there's nothing particularly crazy about the production of a Warforged. You put stone, metal, wood, and an alchemical fluid into a Creation Forge, do a magic ritual, and out comes some Warforged. Where the soul came from is anyone's guess.

[atomic kayak]

Trying to give eberron the same stuff as other dnd settings defeats the purpose of a lot of the settings anyway (in the case of baator, it was trying to make all fiends come from the same place)

4e cosmology stuff was a mess in general. Most of it was reverted for most settings

[valid geyser]

It was also just because you obviously can’t have tieflings without asmodeus /sarcasm

[atomic kayak]

Admittedly, its not as though creation forges are entirely understood either

[crimson gulch]

but the rules for being dead in the new rules glossery do

[lavish flame]

This is because the general rules for Dead do

[crimson gulch]

and there are several specific effects that can prevent a spirit/soul from returning

[lavish flame]

Dead
A dead creature has no Hit Points and can’t regain them unless it is first revived by magic such as the Raise Dead or Revivify spell. When such a spell is cast, the spirit knows who is casting it and can refuse. The spirit of a dead creature has left the body and departed for the Outer Planes, and reviving the creature requires calling the spirit back.

If the creature returns to life, the revival effect determines the creature’s current Hit Points. Unless otherwise stated, the creature returns to life with any conditions, magical contagions, or curses that were affecting it at death if the durations of those effects are still ongoing. If the creature died with any Exhaustion levels, it returns with 1 fewer level. If the creature had Attunement to one or more magic items, it is no longer attuned to them.

[stoic haven]

I can back this up, Ranger isn't bad, I have played a few now, but I think at face value, people thought and saw more "useless or niche" features and so its got a bad rep

[minor cargo]

Oh, nice. This is actually a really great addition in 2024! IIRC "dead" was not explicitly defined in 2014 (it also wasn't explicitly defined in older versions, I think).

[lavish flame]

Rules Glossary my beloved

[minor cargo]

(Pedantically, I could say that spirit and soul aren't necessarily the same thing. But that gets into stickiness because spirit and soul probably aren't well defined in the PHB, Rules Glossary, or campaign setting books. 😬 )

[woven flint]

Okay, so!
The Planes mentioned in Exploring Eberron ARE:

Fernia: The Sea of Flames
Kythri: The Churning Chaos
Lamannia: The Twilight Forest
Mabar: The Endless Night
Risia: The plain of Ice
Savarath: The Eternal Battleground
Syrania: The Azure Sky
And
Thelanis: The Faerie Cour

[lavish flame]

Yeah, they never define what a spirit/soul is and iirc they use the terms pretty interchangeably

[timber turtle]

Are druid, wizard, sorcerer and warlock the only classes that can larp witches?

[lavish flame]

So like... if Soul means something distinct from Spirit we wouldn't know fr

[still plover]

Hah! No.

[jolly canyon]

There is 13 planes. This is 8? Missing 5 I think 🙂

[lavish flame]

Nah, they're just the classes that are closest in flair

[ebon apex]

Is it possible to have 2 fighting styles? Paladin gets one at lvl 2 and the fighting adept fest gives you one

[dense idol]

You could larp a witch with Artificer too lmao and bunch other classes

[atomic kayak]

Missing a few of eberrons planes there lol

[still plover]

Ancients Paladin Witchblade.

[woven flint]

Missed some!
Daanvi: The perfect order
Dal Quor: Region of Dreams
Khyber: The World's within the World
Dolurrh: The Realm of the Dead
Irian: The Eternal Dawn
And
Xoriat: The Realm of Madness

[lavish flame]

We're mising Dolurrh (dead plane), Xoriat (crazy plane), Dal Quor (dream plane), Daanvi (law plane), and Irian

[lavish flame]

zamn!

[woven flint]

I literally just put them lol..
(And Irian)

[atomic kayak]

Eberron plays a lot with the number 13

[jolly canyon]

12 and 13 yea

[woven flint]

Xoriat sounds closest to a hell-like plane

[atomic kayak]

13 planes, 13 dragonmarks, (formerly) 13 moons...

[jolly canyon]

Home of the Illithids

[lavish flame]

13-1 is the big numerological thinf

[timber turtle]

Plate armour witches would be cool

[woven flint]

Zamn...

[jolly canyon]

Actually I don't think it's their "home" but a place they like? I've only ready through EE once. Gotta do it again soon

[woven flint]

Hi, btw, Gwyn :3

[thorn wedge]

Idk. I’m pretty foggy on the actual dnd lore

[lavish flame]

13 planes, but Dal Quor is disconnected
13 moons, but Crya is no longer visible in the sky
13 dragonmarks, but the Mark of Death dies
13 post-war nations of Khorvaire, Droaam is widely unrecognized

Eberron my beloved

[lavish flame]

yooo!

[woven flint]

How are you on this fine day of Whimsy, my lovely friend?

[atomic kayak]

Allegedly maybe

[valid geyser]

I kinda figured cyre was the 13th nation

[atomic kayak]

Well maybe if someone didnt blow up a moon!

[woven flint]

Sorry, sorry, my mistake..
I'll fix it, I swear

[lavish flame]

✍️ Tokii ✍️ is✍️ a ✍️ giant✍️

[woven flint]

A giant pain

[jolly canyon]

Love this setting. Actually struck gold choosing this as my first ever campaign to run. I adore this world and any homebrew I do in the future will likely be influenced by eberron

[lavish flame]

This also works if you do recognize Droaam (which you should)

[valid geyser]

Yeah I figured that the mournland fits because it’s more dramatic with “12 nations but one was destroyed”

[still plover]

-# Curse the Fire Nation, they're at it again! Shakes fist

[atomic kayak]

Like 80% of any world building I do is notably influenced by Eberron and Tyria (the guild wars setting) without fail

[novel ridge]

Is anyone Chaotic Evil?

[jolly canyon]

Sounds like my kind of setting

[knotty frigate]

one of my favorite campaigns 🫶

I played Eberron for the third time a few months ago, unfortunately the campaign in on a hiatus 🤡

ooooh I miss my character sooooo bad

[jolly canyon]

I full expect to dm several eberron campaigns by the time its all said and done. There's just so much

[atomic kayak]

My thing is I kinda don't want to DM eberron, which makes it more difficult to get games for lol

[minor cargo]

The last Eberron game I DM'd was kind of an "XCOM" style mercenary group. It was like 12 sessions or so, and they were investigating new "alien" pressence, and had to keep it all under wraps.

I could've used Faerun or something, but Eberron made so much more sense.

[jolly canyon]

Funny how you bring up xcom cause I stole the bonding system from xcom 2 as a homebrew bonus purely to encourage rp and cooperation because my friends are new and just goblin people irl lmaoo

[wintry spindle]

I have a question my peeps. Do you ever experience the game balance is straying to much to benefit some classes than others from your dms side? Like for example you have a class that is good at exploration but its never used. They benefit from short rests but its only one combat then long rest etc.

[atomic kayak]

From a DM side? Short answer no. Its easy to account for (imo) as the DM

[wintry spindle]

Yeah as a DM myself, i try to balance this. I've just been playing with some DMs lately that even when asked focus to much on aspects that neglects certain charachters abilitees

[mighty bolt]

Hello sweethearts

[crimson gulch]

nope, long adventuring days equalize the chalange across all the classes, a mix of them are best

[lyric viper]

I worry more about accidently favouring certain players because they're more active, than classes, but it's true some can shine in the different pillars more.

[crimson gulch]

very true, some players just are more talkative and energetic in the games than otheres

checking in with folks and making sure the ball gets passed around the whole table is very important

[wintry spindle]

I asked my DM that if we could have longer adventuring day because I played a monk, so i benefit more on short rests. But it never happened so every combat was just paladin going nova

[lyric viper]

In a survival based game I needed to mind things like ranger and outlander more, so their ability to support the party more when finding food for example. Balancing rewarding that without trivalising the survival aspect.

[wintry spindle]

My pc basically just couldn't really shine at anything

[crimson gulch]

yeah, one encounter days are just not good gameplay

[wintry spindle]

yeah, but the problem was also the DM tried to also please the other players who wanted 1 combat and then long rest

So i got the short stick

[turbid vessel]

Sounds like a classic above-table disagreement

[wintry spindle]

I tried nicely to explain it didn't make the game fun for me, and the game even explains this is where the imbalance starts happening that im expereinces. We did talk about it

[turbid vessel]

And it sounds like they still prefer the shorter encounter days?

[wintry spindle]

I do think do a DM has a responsbility to look at the pcs and give everyone aspects they can be good at

Sometimes you just have to make a caster experience running low on spell slots

[turbid vessel]

If you've already brought it up and they still prefer it the way you don't like, at a certain point you just gotta ask yourself if it's something you can ignore or if you want to find a better group

[wintry spindle]

Yeah but thats often the nova option. Often the other players just don't realize the game is unbalanced and not favouring other players

Why would you want it to change when it benefits you the way it is?

[turbid vessel]

You're not wrong, but it sounds like you already brought it up with them and they still prefer to play the way they've been playing

[valid geyser]

Yeah long encounter days is easier in a lot of ways for the DM. Encounter building is a good bit easier to make so that you aren’t using much bigger creatures that hit super hard all the time

[wintry spindle]

As a group we do work well together. It was just during some of the later sessions that we started experiences these problems

the higher lvl we got the more problems arose

But again we havent had a dungeon in a while. And no exploration in a long time. So as a wisdom monk which profenincy in these stuff it becomes som painful sessions of just RP or maybe one combat

and with the other players being charisma based pcs that have high persuasion and deception RP sessions also creates a divide. Sure it's fun to RP stuff you aren't good at, but the experience of succeding is also fun

[rough basalt]

Running hexcrawl games with regular time progression is teaching me a lot on how to balance for low encounter days

[wintry spindle]

well encounters can be more than just fights, just anything that takes resources imo

[rough basalt]

and "how to balance" is just me throwing whatever I want at the party

[wintry spindle]

if they have fun thats fair

the game i DM, I know the players like different stuff so i try to rotate between the styles and also manage expectations upfront

[rough basalt]

Got a kill on monday, wasnt permanent but it was a good snack

I'll need a permanent one soon or else the hunger will set in /j

[wintry spindle]

you want to kill pcs?

[still plover]

Do you not?

[rough basalt]

Indeed. It's how I sustain my immortal life. /hj

[wintry spindle]

I have lol but often because the PC's underestimated something

"I can take this guy alone"

[rough basalt]

I dont got much t2+ balance experience, this was the second level 6 PC ive killed

[still plover]

This manticore isn't a speedbump, or a means to tax resources. This is a living, breathing creature that wants something. If a PC looks like an easy meal, why not? And if the fight turns against it, it flees where the wingless can't follow.

[rough basalt]

but he wasnt put in my death graveyard as he was resurrected

[wintry spindle]

I've never actually perma killed a PC

[rough basalt]

I've permakilled 22 PCs across systems ive gm'd

Like half or more are 5e

[wintry spindle]

just for fun?

[cobalt owl]

He doesnt save players if they mess up

Or if dice don't like em

[lyric viper]

I've permakilled but in the type of games where the story is more focused around telling 'how these people died' where survival might be possible, but really it's seeing how far you can get and telling an interesting story about how a group tragically died. More survival horror stuff.

[cobalt owl]

I've done a couple tpks

[austere root]

i don't like to exclude resurrection from the picture

[lyric viper]

I put the raise spells on cool down in my game in order to make the threat of death feel more.

[austere root]

i know people don't like it because it "makes deaths affect the story less" but i like it when a player resurrects an npc

[cobalt owl]

I just limit diamond availability. Done

[lyric viper]

So Revivify works 1/month, Raise 1/year, Rezz 1/decade, True Rez 1/Lifetime.

[wintry spindle]

dragon ball rules?

[austere root]

I just let the players die and res frequently enough that tpks feel impending despite the possibility of ressing

[feral fulcrum]

The ones they retcon frequently and ignore more often then not?

[cobalt owl]

Both times I tpked folks I did it with someone who counterspells revivify

[woven flint]

I've only had 2 of my PCs die permanently

Can't wait for the next person to attempt to kill on of them :]

Both were self-sacrifice-esque situations

[turbid vessel]

Only major PC death that I had was cause I was calling a DMs bluff, it was a very silly situation

[cobalt owl]

Silly is right

[feral fulcrum]

I've died once in my games, because my charecter annoyed the local bumbling evil Wizard enough to make them draw on their Patron for a Power Word Kill before they got beaten to death by the rest of the group. And that lasted all of six seconds, most of which was confusion, followed by watching the old mans soul go screaming into the outer realms.

[cobalt owl]

PWK is a bit cheap for my liking

Not a spell I put on blocks anymore cuz it's not as interesting as disintegrate

[turbid vessel]

We as players were noticing that the DM kept putting plot armor on us, taking away the danger of something when it started to actually get challenging and possibly lethal
And it got so bad that I decided to have my character touch the "don't touch this, it'll kill you" stone cause we all were curious if the DM would actually commit or put some sort of deus ex machina on it

[cobalt owl]

Congrats, you called his bluff and his bluff won

[feral fulcrum]

This sounds like a problem that could have been solved with clear communication

[turbid vessel]

Absolutely, I do not recommend handling this situation the way 13 year old me did

But far from an educational anecdote, it's a funny story

[turbid vessel]

I wouldn't call it a win, after the session she broke down crying about how she didn't know what'd she do with the story now

[atomic kayak]

I don't bother with any changes to revival spells because I already determine how often they can be cast

[turbid vessel]

Not the best moment at the table, but i was 13 and she was an adult, what was I supposed to do 😭

[atomic kayak]

I am the one who controls material component availability

(Ironically 2024 actually made it harder to revive because you need more specific components, rather than any old collection of diamonds worth a certain value)

[cobalt owl]

Components are the ultimate limiter of spells

[atomic kayak]

A lot of (extremely common) things are the ultimate limiter of spells

[cobalt owl]

Most of which are replaced by a focus because most spells don't have material components quantified in gp

[atomic kayak]

Components, walls, and vision being the most common

I greatly enjoy having things on a battlemap that don't physically obstruct but do visually

[cobalt owl]

Im sure I would too if I ever enjoyed drawing maps

[atomic kayak]

Like a lot of outdoor maps tend to have bushes (or other foliage) you can move through no problem but do provide heavy obscurement

[atomic kayak]

Meet my friend: partially transparent green blob

(When playing digitally)

[feral fulcrum]

Costed components are the only things you can limit in a RAW manner. Given that a spellcasting focus covers all the non costed physical components

[atomic kayak]

Costly and consumed

[rough basalt]

Not just for fun but yeah fun was part of it

[empty thicket]

one time i had a really cool idea
If i have a wizard, sorc or warlock and we were in conditions where we lose all of our stuff and in a stormy day.
I would try to go higher and try to get struck by a lighting while holding a stick, so my casters could use witch bolt because one of the components is that
Sadly it wont happen because too specific and finally they would have other kind of spells

i would try to give that to the players sometimes, there would be components in the map//areas that they could use.
Make component pouch a bit more expensive and finally incentive them to explore for stuff, either those materials, food, extra hidden loot, etc. etc.

[errant crag]

Based

[errant crag]

This is how my first consistent group started playing because our DM was always saving us or nerfing things on the spot way too blatantly. Even after telling him numerous times that it was okay to challenge us and we wanted to face consequences he wouldn't stop so we just got more and more reckless and brash in our gameplay

[rough basalt]

Past 7 permadeaths were in a dnd-like system where death is very expected so they amplified the number quite a bit.

Last 5e PC I permanently killed was last June? I think.

This one on Monday went to a mysterious woman who can resurrect people into puppets/dolls type of deal. They look, and feel the same for the most part, but mechanically they're a reborn and a "Construct" now.

[normal canyon]

Hi.

[livid slate]

What's your guys opinion on enemies having acces to counter spell? (Mainly higher level ones)

[normal canyon]

It’s fine.

[livid slate]

I do understand that like
Some spells if not counter spelled is broken

[cobalt escarp]

as long as its limited

[livid slate]

But at times it makes some efforts just
Eh

[bronze canopy]

I used an enemy wizard to Counterspell one of my players’ fireball. Fun stuff

I even telegraphed it by having him move within 60ft

[empty thicket]

its that or giga focus the casters, there must be a way to counter them at least

and actual counterspell its like a "clash" between them, to see which of both sides win so...

[livid slate]

Fair enough
My issue with it has been gm's using it on creative combos that were too strong

[empty thicket]

let them do it 1 or 2 times, enjoy it a bit and then stop them using counter.
Make them understand that spam the same thing one and another time only would lead to the enemies to adapt to it
More if they are constantly against a faction or smt like that

[minor cargo]

Typically enemy casters have access to counterspell in my game, but I also telegraph pretty clearly (IMO) that they are casters.

We use 2024 counterspell so simply casting it doesn't always guarantee that it will nullify the original spell.

[empty thicket]

"oh look, these adventurers that we fought 3 times have people that use magic and used THIS kind of damage, we can get something to take care of them" its the way i think some faction would see it unless they are straight animals//brainless monsters

So the casters try to variety their spells at least.

[livid slate]

This is a real good way of making actual world building with the party tbh.

Real good idea.

[empty thicket]

20 fireballs 🥀
There is more spells than just that.

[rugged hawk]

See, this is exactly why I like Ascendent Element feats so much. Go ahead, bring anti-[ELEMENT] protection, it won't help in the slightest.

The downside is your element can't be blocked or reduced by your own protections, either, though

[empty thicket]

"it seems the fire of this one is more powerful and burn through our cloaks, we can try to take it down first or stop him in other way"
Silence, assassins

Fortunately, i can justify such things and "changes" in many ways.

[rugged hawk]

I had full immunity from two sources to Fire and my own Fireballs still did full damage to me. Ascendent Fire, truly an apocalypse.

[empty thicket]

no evoker or was a sorc?

wait, if were a sorc could careful spelling or smt like that

[rugged hawk]

Sorc. Had to use metamagic to avoid harming party or myself

because anti-element spells had zero effect

Was totally worth it though since it was a demonic campaign and pretty much all demons were fire-immune or at least resistant to some degree.

[empty thicket]

Yep, i think that some battle encounters must let shine one or 2 of the party while others are a bit more subtle

[rugged hawk]

Also, I needed it since all my damage was Fire damage.

[empty thicket]

"WHAT YOU MEAN THE FIRE BURN US!? WE ARE DEMONS!!"

[empty thicket]

Bro... anything but change the spell or damage type of the spell 🥀

[errant crag]

They should

At my table once we're above a certain level it becomes expected that casters we face will have counterspell

[rugged hawk]

I was an Emberkin-blooded aasimar as a Shifter druid focused on Fire Elemental wildshape and additional levels in Elementalist (Fire)

[empty thicket]

oh nice, im doing an assimar too, a Warlock celestial assimar

[rugged hawk]

So yeah. I grabbed Ascendent Fire the moment it became available.

[empty thicket]

He think he is a Cleric but he doesnt know he isnt and he doesnt know he is an Assimar

[empty thicket]

wait, what is Ascendent fire?

[rugged hawk]

Ascendant Element Effects

You mastered a certain element to spectacular level.

Benefit: Choose one energy type (acid, cold, electricity, fire, sonic, or negative). The damage of that energy type you deal can no longer be prevented or reduced by resistances or immunities. This bonus works on any damage you deal with the chosen energy type.

However, this means your damage can no longer be blocked or resisted by your allies, either.

[empty thicket]

oohhhh, i think i know it like Elemental adept, nice

[rugged hawk]

There's a weaker variant of this feat in D&D, too

Does half damage to targets with immunity

And I think ignores Resistance

So it's not the total solution Ascendant Element is, but eh.

[remote wadi]

Uhhhh

How?

[errant crag]

Dragon sorcerer is my favorite sorcerer subclass I think

[rugged hawk]

By reading the convo

[empty thicket]

worse is nothing

Worse would be base your whole kit in poisons and dont be able to pierce immunity

(Assassin // rogue should be able to)

[nocturne patio]

Hey, is anyone running a superhero based campaign?

[rugged hawk]

That's all of 5.5

[errant crag]

This server is specifically for D&D so I don't know if other systems would be found in the LFG sections of the server

[wintry spindle]

I had a tought. Does it make sense to go around wearin plate armor in a city, when you know you are just doing "shopping".

[errant crag]

Yes it makes sense

It's a city and cities are dangerous

[rugged hawk]

Course it does, don't wanna get a dagger in the ribs

[errant crag]

If you had your weapons drawn and brandished that may raise some eyebrows

[wintry spindle]

yeah but it's heavy

[errant crag]

But armor is fine

[nocturne patio]

Thanks

[wintry spindle]

you might just wear your day to day armor

[rugged hawk]

Inventory issue, buy lighter armor

[wintry spindle]

I would think a prober knight would have different armor to switch in between

[rugged hawk]

Or, you know, LIFT 💪

[empty thicket]

or hide your armor under some clothes//cloak, etc. etc.

[errant crag]

If you're looking for a superhero TTRPG system, consider Mutants and Masterminds, or MASKS (though MASKS is more roleplay driven and is more focused around being teen superheroes). You can probably find communities for either of these systems.

[still plover]

Small children follow you in the street asking when the parade is. When you say there isn't one, they ask where the circus is.

[wintry spindle]

I once played a martial in a oneshot that took place in a spa. I did not wear armor because it seemed weird to do

[still plover]

Fair.

[errant crag]

You should ask your DM for some Cast Off Armor

Sounds like you may actually get some use out of it

[wintry spindle]

i had cast off armor actually

was fun. He was a barbarian

[remote wadi]

I just got here >:C

[still plover]

But you can leave
Your helm on!

[wintry spindle]

Do the ol' "I need a speed bump so i will drop this armor"

[empty thicket]

had a beach episode one time and did the same
Armor and sand is... not a good mix

[wintry spindle]

But it's interesting to think just going around in heavy armor all day

[empty thicket]

my fighter only wear it while working or outside, in the base he go in commoner clothes.
Unless training, maintain the shape isnt easy

[unborn isle]

Would you guys say a simulacrum inherit vampire weakness? Wording says it inherits statistic from the caster, but it isn’t technically a vampire.

[empty thicket]

And more if every mission leave me in bed healing some wounds

[wintry spindle]

make sense

[still plover]

Of course.

[wintry spindle]

if you are in a tavern i would assume you would go downstairs to eat in your just normal clothes

[empty thicket]

Yep, unless is crowded. Better safe than sorry

[wintry spindle]

yeah if its sketchy ofc

[errant crag]

Making me realize that it is indeed kinda weird that all of my characters always have their armor on whenever they're not resting

[wintry spindle]

right?

[errant crag]

Then again

I also don't go out of my way to specify when my character takes a bathroom break while in town

[wintry spindle]

I am gonna play a cleric soon but I thought it would be funny to just not wear the armor unless he knows he is gonna do something important

[errant crag]

So some stuff is just assumed I feel

[wintry spindle]

It's cause he likes to take naps and heavy armor is anoying for naps

[empty thicket]

sometimes such thing like long rests its thought you take off the armor or stuff like that

[errant crag]

Well you have to take off armor for a long rest

[wintry spindle]

It's an important mechanic that you don't sleep in heavy armor while camping

[empty thicket]

unless you specifically say "im sleeping like guts with armor on and hand in the handle of my greatsword"

[errant crag]

You can't benefit from a long rest while wearing armor

[wintry spindle]

unless youre a warforged i think

[errant crag]

I feel like that should apply to Elves with their Trance too

Kinda weird that it doesn't

[rugged hawk]

#dnd-discussion message

[errant crag]

An elf meditating for 4 hours should be able to do so in armor

[wintry spindle]

I think its for balance?

so elves don't also have a benefit for having shorter rest

It is fun ambush without armor though

[remote wadi]

That makes more sense. Although being able to bypass their's is likely far more valuable than your friends'

[austere root]

armor is expensive, you'd be fine paying for only one

[remote wadi]

Especially when careful metamagic exists

[wintry spindle]

true depends also if it's enchanted armor i guess

[austere root]

plain armor is also expensive from a fresh adventurer perspective

[wintry spindle]

I just know knights have different armors for like jousting, battles and other forms of combat situation. And for social stuff

[empty thicket]

Studded leather is 45gp
Halfplate is 750gp
Plate armor is 1500gp....

Yikes its expensive the plate armor...

[errant crag]

Unless you're playing in Ghosts of Saltmarsh then you can get a full set for free at level 1

[remote wadi]

But a guaranteed 18 AC though

[empty thicket]

but i guess that 18ac is op too

[remote wadi]

I mean, Light Armor needs 20 Dex to match that

[empty thicket]

yeah but the jump from splint armor (200gp) give 17, its a big jump for that 1 ac

[errant crag]

I recently played an 11th level artificer who had 23 AC at base, 25 with Shield of Faith cast from his magic staff, and then would have 30 with Shield

It was really fun

[empty thicket]

tho im saving gp for a splint armor because i like the style of it

[errant crag]

Especially since he also had +10 to concentration checks and advantage on concentration checks

Bro was locked in bro was a concentration machine

[remote wadi]

DM waiting for the chance to tell the party for once "I need a Dex saving throw":

[errant crag]

Flash of Genius really carried with the Dex saves

[remote wadi]

But no evasion?

[errant crag]

No Evasion

But Greasy was a tough guy. Greasy had plenty of HP

[remote wadi]

Wait, +10 on Concentration checks? How?

[mighty wharf]

Gang I have found the missing piece of the book of warding bomb. MAGE HAND.

[errant crag]

Wait you're right he had +9

I had a minimum roll of 10 (which is really the threshold that matters)

Anything less than 22 damage couldn't break Greasy's concentration

[remote wadi]

You're really not doing me any favors here

[errant crag]

The book can't move more than a 10ft from its original location without the Glyphs ending without triggering

[mighty wharf]

Yes, so we use dimensional storage like a Bag of Holding, and a trigger like "if this book moves 9 feet"

[remote wadi]

Mmm, there is also a problem still anyways: Heat Metal