dnd-discussion

[glass granite]

Signed

[reef tundra]

Nobody’s ever been my warlock before.

[glass granite]

Oath of the boba, time to make a new subclass

[abstract beacon]

Im a dm currently but next campaign I’ll be playing as a Battlerager (which I made)

[turbid vessel]

everyone seems to think their perception of the game is correct, and everyone seems to think everyone else's perception of the game is a less-correct dnd. so conversations about balancing and meta don't do well in the general chat (or in dnd in general, if you ask me)

[flint ledge]

Also amity your title is changing quite a lot recently, a few falling outs?

[reef tundra]

I’m an archfey, just take pact of the archfey

[rough basalt]

So a level 20 2024 Battlemaster with just a rare magic greatsword can do on average 252 damage with action surge

[reef tundra]

I like directing people to the optimisation channel (I have it muted so it’s funny to me it’s like I’m just showing them the door)

[crimson gulch]

ditto

[turbid vessel]

glad i'm not the only one who has it muted lol

[rough basalt]

Assuming all attacks hit which with a +11 and with all the ways get advantage in '24 assume advantage more often than not.

[paper portal]

idk what people have against optimization lol

[minor cargo]

If I had a magic wand, I'd cast a spell that whenever these types of conversations come up, they focus less on being right or wrong, and focus more on what sort of players/groups would enjoy certain aspects - and how we might better cater to those tastes. 👀

[reef tundra]

I change my titles like I change clothes

[paper portal]

nothing wrong with not doing it but some people recoil the moment they hear the word its crazy

[flint ledge]

I occasionally hop in there to see what they think are underpowered spells and abilities

[abstract beacon]

It’s about balance between optimisation and fun tbh

[rough basalt]

Optimization can be fun

[turbid vessel]

nothing against it on its own. but conversations about and around optimization get very "holier than thou" especially in this server

[paper portal]

personally i think optimization is fun but obviously not everyone thinks that way

[abstract beacon]

Try to be as optimal as you can be but make it make sense and flavour it, otherwise np

[paper portal]

yeah

[reef tundra]

It’s like those vegans that shame you for eating meat and tell you what vegan foods you should eat. I have nothing against it, I just don’t like it when it’s shoved in my face when I and others are trying to enjoy something

[turbid vessel]

the best optimization conversations come with a focused, finite goal. "make the best fighter" boring, no goal, ripe for argument and miscommunication. "make a fighter with the best status control" now THAT'S a goal that people can agree on and strive for

[paper portal]

tbh generally i tend to make the build first and find lore that fits it afterwards, means i can play what i want and still have interesting characters

[reef tundra]

I’m not against optimising, I’m against hyperoptimisers

[reef tundra]

Wait let me word that better. I’m against people who push it in my face and other people’s face

[flint ledge]

I do think optimization can be fun, I'll probably be doing a campaign that encourages optimizing builds at some point. But outside of that I think making super optimal builds and such should stay out of more casual games

[crimson gulch]

The thing i have against the way folks approach opptimization is that its all white room stuff, you never know what a campaign has in store for you, so hyper focus on one thing is just not keeping your eyes open for the journy you are on

[rough basalt]

Ah my '24 BM fighter math was wrong. It's like 220ish cause I forgot BM dice is only 4 uses.

[halcyon bison]

I like optimizing towards unconventional goals, like "what's the best non-wildshape melee druid I can make" or "how effective can I make a dhampir who attacks exclusively with bites"

[turbid vessel]

"objectivity is built on subjectivity" is a mantra i think more people need to take into heart

[paper portal]

yeah a table should always stick to the same level of optimization, one character being able to blast everything isnt fun for the rest of them

[abstract beacon]

Nvm lets Dungeon this Dragon

[reef tundra]

Like I’m just trying to enjoy my food, I don’t wanna hear about how this other recipe is much better for me and the world etc

[rough basalt]

My problems come when an optimizer assumes what happens at the average dnd table.

[turbid vessel]

always comes back to the "lemon vs chocolate cake" debacle

[paper portal]

wdym by this

[flint ledge]

I'm curious uritz, you do hardcore level campaigns, how do people who optimize fare in those if you've had them?

[rough basalt]

The average dnd player hasn't read the rules.

[paper portal]

true

[turbid vessel]

bit of a hyperbolic example but i think it describes some of the dissent well

A: hey man, trying to make a lemon cake, got any good tips? I know you like making cakes.
B: sure! Make a chocolate cake.
A: huh? I said I want a lemon cake.
B: I know. But you should really be making a chocolate cake.
A: why?
B: because chocolate cakes are objectively sweeter than lemon cakes.
A: okay, maybe... But I like lemon cakes, and I wanna make a lemon cake for my friends who also like lemon cakes.
B: why are you insisting on making your friends eat an inferior cake? Gods, you're a bad friend. Maybe you just shouldn't bake at all if you don't wanna make a good cake.

[rough basalt]

Optimizers live and breathe the rules so they can find anything that'll get more power.

[undone rain]

Woo hooo found another group to play with

[crimson gulch]

people who multiclass and go with op builds from reddit are the weakest player charicters in my games because they dont let the journy shape them

[atomic kayak]

This is in essence, why #optimization exists as a separate channel from #character-discussion . Because people were getting very toxic with forcing optimization into every character discussion it needed to be contained. (Not that it still doesn't happen outside of that channel, but still)

[reef tundra]

That is exactly how it feels

[paper portal]

op builds from reddit is an oxymoron

[rough basalt]

This is a good example

[abstract beacon]

Urizt as a veteran what is your opinion on homebrew?

[paper portal]

this just reads like the average conversation with chatgpt to me lol

[crimson gulch]

i dont use homebrew charicter options in my games

i make and use plenty of custom content on the DM side, Plots and Monsters

[atomic kayak]

Thats more my personal issue yea. A lot of (a specific type of) optimization things make assumptions that are wildly off kilter from anywhere near average and the behavior as though it is anywhere close to average is the source of a lot of problems.

[flint ledge]

That reminds me when one of my players like 2 months into a campaign asked me what a BA is

[turbid vessel]

nah chatgpt would say "pause - lets reflect back on that" a lot more lol

[rough basalt]

Yeah the average player barely knows what a d20 is

[abstract beacon]

What about one of your players wanting to try something they saw online like a subclass or race?

[rough basalt]

People who assume the average table is optimizing don't realize the majority of tables are people just rolling dice and stuff happens.

[turbid vessel]

like i said before, the source of a lot of optimization arguments is that there's no really unified goal to attain. "most optimal build" is far too open and wide to apply any "objectivity" to

[crimson gulch]

they can find another game for that, mine are by the book.

because so many people that feel the need to homebrew just will never be satisfied no matter what, if they cant accept the options presented then no options will be acceptable because they are having issues choosing rather than the actual quality of the options

[atomic kayak]

Even amongst the average player who does know the rules a lot of optimization stuff is so far afield from anything resembling what they do its still largely irrelevant

[rough basalt]

That's also true.

[flint ledge]

I luckily didn't have to worry about my players optimizing because a vast majority of them where people I knew and introduced to dnd

[abstract beacon]

I see

[rough basalt]

The uncommon knows the rules dnd player is still only making a competent PC to strongish pc usually

[paper portal]

most optimal we generally quantify as being able to survive the most and most difficult encounters, obviously that leaves a lot of room for moving things around but thats why our goal is to find which things tend to perform better on the whole

[atomic kayak]

Most especially for playstyle reasons, because a lot of optimization stuff comes from very thinly veiled metagaming type stuff ("my character knows they can constantly cast this spell to be able to be better at X thing so why wouldn't they") type thing

[turbid vessel]

and that's the thing; "we generally quanitfy" who is we? have you asked the people around you? can you say for certain everyone defaults to the same goals if they're not outlined?

[crimson gulch]

i put a book list in writing in place for each campaign, Before i even invite players. they accept what i offer, which is an amazing game, or they dont.

[rough basalt]

My current games the only restrictions are species

[crimson gulch]

and all my Tables are Full

[abstract beacon]

Interesting

[broken imp]

lol fr that me when i kept spamming guidance on every non-combat spells

[rough basalt]

With my shorter stuff ahead, it'll be anything goes.

[turbid vessel]

honestly if i have the itch to hyper optimize a system, DnD is not my go-to. it doesn't fufill that itch as much as, say, Lancer does

[rough basalt]

Cause 90% of the time PCs are just gonna pick PHB anyways

[crystal latch]

There's not much else that the system has rules to support anyway

[rough basalt]

At most they might play Flubber the Plasmoid

But still pick champion fighter

[flint ledge]

Uritz is a full time GM and paid so his campaigns are obviously different than most others here

[turbid vessel]

my table has been having a lot of fun pushing the boundaries of reflavoring

[paper portal]

"we" is optimizers pretty much. obviously i cant speak for everyone but the general standard that gets used in the community is that being able to survive the most deadly+ encounters means your character is stronger (on that note hi haen beater of 140 encounter day)

[reef tundra]

I’ve recently cut down on my number of groups, just going down to the groups I’m friends with, and it’s actually been really nice

[abstract beacon]

Ok

[rough basalt]

I'm looking to increase mine sort of.

[abstract beacon]

How long you’ve been playing?

[rough basalt]

I need some people who aren't allergic to other systems.

[turbid vessel]

"no dnd is bad dnd" but people never talk about how too much dnd can mess with you

[reef tundra]

5 years, DMing for 4

[abstract beacon]

Damn

[rough basalt]

I wanna dedicate one day of my week to playing other systems.

[severe rampart]

The pain of waiting for my one DMing game is torture, so I might get another group, that is if I manage

[turbid vessel]

remember that the game has been around for 50+ years and some people have been DMing since launch day

[abstract beacon]

Our group has agreed that each player must dm at least once

[reef tundra]

Yeah it’s true. Playing with groups I didn’t like almost affected how I view the game and DMing

[paper portal]

W rule

[rough basalt]

Cause I can't do more than 2 campaigns as a dm for dnd

[reef tundra]

Yeah my 5 years are baby numbers

[rough basalt]

And 3 as a total

[flint ledge]

There is forever DMs and then there's forever DMs

[inner silo]

it can be a big problem if you start rolling dice during irl encounters

[reef tundra]

I remember when I did 5 per week. Never again

[rough basalt]

I just want a weekend game

[turbid vessel]

wanna make the best table as a DM? make a group of forever DMs and take turns DMing

[rough basalt]

Something of a different system even if I have to GM it.

[river vector]

reddit does not give op builds lol, they give what they think are op builds

[rough basalt]

Then after I run/play my dnd for the week I have a nice cleanser of something else

[abstract beacon]

We’ve only played 1 campaign, on our 2nd now and now I’m DMing

[crimson gulch]

That's every optimizer, not just reddit

[crimson gulch]

I have allready ran about 540 sessions of 2024 dnd

[severe rampart]

the best build is the one you like to play with

[turbid vessel]

i unironically think that one of the best ways to get more enjoyment out of DnD is to play other systems. learn more about what a system can be good or bad for, see DnD from a more objective standpoint, get better at bringing out the best notes of DnD

[abstract beacon]

In the end what matters most is you have fun

Screw the builds

[turbid vessel]

the far ends of the optimizer spectrum tend to, as my group likes to call it, "miss the forest for the trees"

[rough basalt]

Yeah this is part of why I want one day of my week to be the other stuff

To make sure it keeps my dnd going

[abstract beacon]

My barbarian has a an intelligence score of 8. Do I want him to? No. Does it fit my character and make sense ? Absolutely. Will it affect my gameplay ? You bet it will, but in a good way, cause it’s gonna be fun

[paper portal]

yeah exactly lol, idk why redditors are like this no matter what game you play

[crimson gulch]

also optimizers seem to think they will allways have unlimited prep time and resources, like no theres scarcity in a real campaign

[paper portal]

you say that as if 8 int isnt the right amount for a barb lol

[paper portal]

nah i always assume none of either cus both of those trivialize the game which is no fun

[flint ledge]

This is true because in the end what matters most is everyone has fun, both in front and behind the DM screen

[abstract beacon]

Im trying to say it’s logical and it’s good for roleplay

[crystal latch]

Not always tbh, 5e redditors are unique but this is to a some extent a trait of the system

[abstract beacon]

Yea most people tend to forget the DM has to have fun too

[inner silo]

are there any often banned races that arent flying?

[rough basalt]

5e redditors are the final bosses of not reading

[paper portal]

idk i have yet to see a single game where the reddit is anything but filled with noob traps and bad advice

[broken imp]

maybe? warforged aren't always liked by dms

[flint ledge]

I imagine warforged

[severe rampart]

Warforged and maybe bugbears?

[inner silo]

oki

[rough basalt]

You'll see people on there be like "this 5.5e stuff is garbage this is why I've never touched a book since 2e"

[turbid vessel]

think it's more a trait of the popularity of the system. oil and water theory and all that. if the ratio of is 1% oil 99% water, you still might only see a bunch of oil float to the top

[flint ledge]

Bugbears? Really?

[crystal latch]

SWSE, 3.5e from what I've seen so far, 4e afaik

[rough basalt]

And it's like if you haven't touched anything since 2e then how do you know 5.5 is garbage

[primal wolf]

for me personally optimizing is part of how i have fun in games, I don't know why I'd look at a bunch of character choices and spells just to not use the good ones

[paper portal]

people think theyre busted cus you get more damage on some attacks

[broken imp]

usually it's more class and how u combine things together

[abstract beacon]

Warforged are usually not liked because they don’t provide much in terms of roleplay in my experience. I should know my current campaign has one

[river vector]

because they are smelly redditors

[paper portal]

wowie cool

[turbid vessel]

"using options you enjoy" is far from optimizing as we're describing it

[flint ledge]

Yeah when creatures are surprised you get an extra 2d6 damage wowie

[abstract beacon]

First round of combat only

[paper portal]

its a decent race on nova builds but far from broken

[inner silo]

funnily enough the warforged in one of my campaigns does probably the most rp of us all

[paper portal]

technically the vgm version doesnt say that

[flint ledge]

I know, that was a joke

[river vector]

I am a noob, but I haven't banned flyers at my campaign, because I can just.... give the enemy a ranged attack.

[minor cargo]

I think Warforged actually have a ton of story and roleplaying potential, but maybe something for another time? We go on so many tangents around here (positive) haha.

For me, Warforged are a maybe the best species to use if you want your game to talk about transhumanism - which is super, super interesting to me and a lot of my players.

[abstract beacon]

Ah , my bad

[abstract beacon]

Good

[crystal latch]

The unique thing about 5e that makes bad optimization advice more common is that its op principles are more counterintuitive
In order to excel at it you need to pretty much assume the system is failing at most seemingly intended jobs

[turbid vessel]

Cyberpunk is a great system if you wanna tell a story strongly centered around transhumanism

[primal wolf]

so where are you drawing the line exactly?

[flint ledge]

Well technically speaking a lot of things don't specify and there's some wording loophole but 9/10 DMs won't allow them

[paper portal]

hey thats me im a trans human (ism)

[rough basalt]

Transhumanism is where you question what makes something truly alive or a person right?

[paper portal]

i think you'd be harder pressed to find something that doesnt have a silly RAW tbh

[river vector]

I think it's when someone who was a human is no longer one

[crystal latch]

The paladin class is a good example
The class fantasy is "holy warrior hitting things hard in melee with smites"
So of course the best build is the one when you take 2 levels of warlock to shoot things from afar and dispense your buff auras to other ranged teammates

[paper portal]

yeah when dealing damage is suboptimal thats uhhhh a little weird

[rough basalt]

Maybe the question on whether if a human is changed biologically enough are they still the person they were deep down.

[turbid vessel]

specifically in the field of thought related to augementation and replacement. think of a person like the ship of theseus. how many parts of yourself can you take out until you can't call yourself a human anymore?

[abstract beacon]

Theseus’s Human

[river vector]

ship of warforged

[rough basalt]

Ah I see.

[halcyon bison]

the flesh is weak, mithral is strong

[abstract beacon]

Flesh is weak, train it to be stronger

[minor cargo]

Or the other direction: How many "human things" does an object need before we consider it a human? 👀

[river vector]

"From the moment I understood the weakness of my flesh, it disgusted me"

[primal wolf]

I'll also note litterally every time a DM i've had has requested the players generally play something "Less Optimized" or "In the middle of power in the game" ect, That they then used our less optimal choices to punish us incredibly harshly, so I somewhat see it as a trap or red flag.

[halcyon bison]

I craved the strength and certainty of steel

[jolly canyon]

We praising the omnissiah?!

[hot reef]

They’re among the greatest races for roleplay within the setting of Eberron
When removed from that and placed in a random world with little connection, yeah

[river vector]

As a new DM my philosophy is (mostly) anything goes

[abstract beacon]

Yea fairs

[severe rampart]

my table has 4 new players and 1 veteran, and the veteran is very nice, so I don't have to worry about optimism

[rough basalt]

Ah I always like this kind of theme. But I can never go against it? I think if something can feel, think, dream like a person then it's a person.

[severe rampart]

correction, optimization

[worn lagoon]

you have to worry about pesimism now

[turbid vessel]

"hey guys i've recently discovered the weakness of flesh so i'm going to instead absorb myself into the infallibility of machine"
"nvm gang i learned machine has just as many weaknesses as flesh, so instead of all that i'm going to devote myself to the divine"
"you'll never believe this guys."

[abstract beacon]

Magos Biologis on top

[primal wolf]

I've actually got a warforged transhumanist PC and they're one of my first PC's i ever made, still one of my favorites

[minor cargo]

I think that's where the roleplaying part comes in. Even though you and me and others might say "Yeah, if it feels and dreams, that's pretty gosh darn human", by virtue of being a game, you can play the orle of someone who says, "I feel and dream, but I don't feel human. Will I ever?"

And I think that's a great story for games like D&D and other TTRPGs.

[severe rampart]

fitting for Curse of Strahd

[flint ledge]

I think disallowing most or all optimization is silly. Because having at least a little bit of a build is nice and should be encouraged. What I do understand is not wanting to allow people to go for a 3 level warlock dip or similar to get like 150 dpr

[worn lagoon]

i'd love to play on any of the other wotc settings but even forgotten realms games are hard to find so an eberron game sounds impossible to find

[jolly canyon]

I be optimizing my terrible build

[river vector]

strahd could be a redditor

[rough basalt]

One of my favorite character arcs in a game series was about a robot from a hive mind robot people gaining true sentience and eventually referring to itself as an individual rather than the collective.

[worn lagoon]

strahd is a redditor

[jolly canyon]

Currently DMn it

[river vector]

legion

[rough basalt]

Yep

[abstract beacon]

I just usually make a build based on the character I want to play

[crystal latch]

I generally aim to have the tool for every job ASAP
Whatever the situation that shows up in the campaign, I want to have the spells to deal with it better than expected

[flint ledge]

The 8 int wizard grabbing war caster to be slightly better

[abstract beacon]

Character first, build second

[crystal latch]

My builds are usually quite similar to each other

[river vector]

"I killed my brother to try and get with his fiance, AITA?"

[crystal latch]

Strahd is too smart to be a redditor

[jolly canyon]

Max Charisma Ranger begging my dm to give me advantage cause I have Cloak of Billowing

[severe rampart]

AITA? (Spoilers for the ENTIRE plot of Curse of Strahd)
||so I (500M), was into this sophisticated woman (30F), and I was the lord of the land, however, she found my form unsightly, and ended up with my younger brother, so I killed my younger brother, became a vampire, and trapped the land of barovia into a demi plane||

[turbid vessel]

there are many smart people on reddit. you don't have to be dumb to be an incel, you just have to be hateful 😭

[primal wolf]

max cha ranger is fixed with levels in hexblade-

[crystal latch]

A redditor would have accidentally impaled himself with the Ba'al Verzi dagger

[worn lagoon]

max chr... ranger...

[buoyant oar]

Strahd would never use reddit. He'd be the last user on digg.com

[flint ledge]

Oh my god how many times players have begged me for advantage because of cape of billowing

[crystal latch]

Strahd would only use the Internet to look at images of silly bats

[severe rampart]

My sorcerer has a cloak of protection and cloak of billowing, he's collecting them all

[river vector]

Strahd would look for consorts online

[jolly canyon]

Cloak of many shapes is shaking rn

[worn lagoon]

strahd kitchencels post

[buoyant oar]

A mail-order bride all the way from Mordent

[primal wolf]

I was once called out for metagaming and being a snowflake because my PC with a sailor background used their sailor background to steer a ship we were on when the pilot passed out; the race to the bottom when it comes to anti-optimization is real

[worn lagoon]

if strahd posted on r/kitchencels what dish would he even post

[river vector]

Free Vacation to Barovia

[turbid vessel]

Steve from Accounting

[flint ledge]

Does strahd even need to eat?

[river vector]

all expenses paid! You'll never want to leave!

[flint ledge]

Regular food that is

[river vector]

well no

[abstract beacon]

In the end, whether it is homebrew or official content, what matters is everyone enjoys the game and each others company, having fun along the way, playing the characters they always wanted to. Gn everyone

[buoyant oar]

Realistically.... Strahd would use AI

[river vector]

it's never mentioned RAW if vampires can eat regular food or not

[flint ledge]

Or well rather can and would he eat regular food

[barren badger]

i dont think rules cover that

[river vector]

AI Tatyana

[jolly canyon]

my pcs invsting in StrahdCoin

[flint ledge]

Would be more World building so more a DM thing

[barren badger]

im going to say it.

I dont think magic initiate should allow two castings of a level spelled per turn.

It works RAW, but i don't like it

[woven flint]

Baroviacoin

[crystal latch]

MorbCoin

[buoyant oar]

@rahadin is that true?

[river vector]

how many people live in barovia? Three thousand, I believe?

[barren badger]

Why can a level 1 wizard with magic initiate cast two leveled spells per turn but a master wizard at level 10 cannot

[woven flint]

Strahd becomes an NPC streamer

[flint ledge]

Well RAW counterspells can also erase those spells

[primal wolf]

they'll really do anything to make metamagic bad

[severe rampart]

"I'm telling you man, this is the new big thing, invest in it and you'll be doubling, no tripling your gold!"

[river vector]

new plot hook to get players into barovia

[flint ledge]

Got scammed out of all their money

[buoyant oar]

Barovia but it's just the Metaverse

[severe rampart]

Their rich uncle died and they inherit the castle

[woven flint]

Demogorgoncoin/Abyssalcoin enjoyers when they they hear about the ripoff Baroviacoin when the population of the Abyss is near infinite

[river vector]

"The Dread Lord Strahd has started a new venture called Barovia coin, in an attempt to appease the Dark Powers."

[severe rampart]

Hey, you know this guy Strahd? he's actually related to you and he's the lord of this land, so you inherit all of the land, you just gotta fill out the paperwork in Barovia

[flint ledge]

Maybe Strahd has a multi level marketing strategy (otherwise known as a pyramid scheme)

[worn lagoon]

thank you for pointing it out, i love this

[river vector]

this actually works

[river vector]

this works really well lmao

[worn lagoon]

i will actually put thought into my magic initiate spell now

[barren badger]

Silvery barbs is a very good choice

[crystal latch]

If I wanted to get people interested in living in Barovia I would just shill the afterlife mechanics

[buoyant oar]

You can take this Castle or you can open the Barovian mystery box.

I mean a castle is a castle. But the mystery box could be anything!

It could even be a castle!

[barren badger]

hit them with a save or suck, then silvery barbs if they succeed

[worn lagoon]

oh true, i like this

[primal wolf]

for MI specifically it's maybe not great because it's a reaction and MI's perk of 2 leveled spells per turn wouldn't matter

[barren badger]

as a DM, i dislike it, loll

[river vector]

but afterlife mechanics don't work that well in barovia. Is it really you that comes back?

[crystal latch]

Yes, it is you

[woven flint]

"Believe it or not, The lord of madness can be pretty charming! 5/5"
-AbyssalcoinEnthusiast88

[crystal latch]

It is your soul

[flint ledge]

Silvery Barbs is the one spell I'll never add to the table

[river vector]

different personality

[worn lagoon]

the rules i allow in my table would probably give you a heart attack then. though i do throw some terrible encounters at my players to make up for it.

[barren badger]

its honestly not that bad, but when three players have it. Lolll

[severe rampart]

Two castles, even

[crystal latch]

Personality is a lesser sacrifice than all you lose by becoming a petitioner

[river vector]

Invest in strahd coin, the ticket to great life!

[primal wolf]

I actually like silvery barbs because it's the only spell that lets me save the melee martial when they inevitably get slammed by a nat20 by an enemy

[severe rampart]

Oh yeah guys, what's the best fantasy scam you have? I'm looking for a way to trick my players with Vistani

[woven flint]

I view Silvery Barbs as a net positive because it's just another way to waste your casters spellslots 🧐

[river vector]

wild magic ale that only gives the bad/funny results

[buoyant oar]

The best part is that you can just ignore silvery barbs because it's in a Magic the Gathering Book. And now that D&D Beyond no longer has a la carte purchasing the barrier for people to buy that spell has shot up dramatically. Thank Mystra

[crystal latch]

Silvery barbs is a thing that didn't need to exist but its existence doesn't make the game unplayable

[flint ledge]

I think it's an anti fun spell. It sucks when I get nat 20s rerolled and I'm pretty sure the players would despise me if I did it to them too

[river vector]

sell it as "potion of strength"

[turbid vessel]

magically weighted prize wheel

[barren badger]

I think i'd agree with this. It is not overpowered, i just dont think it's good for the table

[crystal latch]

I don't particularly care when enemies use it and seldom see a good reason to cast it

[river vector]

I'm going to hit my players with counterspell for the first time soon enough lol. As a noob DM, I feel this will make casters hate me.

[barren badger]

Negating crits or successes is usually the way to use it

[primal wolf]

Using silvery barbs for offense is kind of meh because of the unfortunate nature of save or suck in DND; namely that anything worth mega-focusing and CC'ing with multiple slots inevitabbly has legendary resistances and good save profs.

[worn lagoon]

I don't get why DMs get thrilled about their monsters rolling high, for me I don't really care if the death slaad crits the bard to near death or misses. It's just combat going on as planned.

[crystal latch]

Nat 20s are whatever anyway, oh yay I do a bit more damage with my attack cantrip - cool, I just care that it's a hit so I apply a -10 speed/10ft push rider

[barren badger]

The same reason players enjoy getting crits

[glad arch]

Big numbers are fun

[barren badger]

It's just fun

[woven flint]

Many of my dms get scared when they crit with their monsters 💀

[worn lagoon]

Idunno. I don't project that much into my monsters as a DM, I'm just a referee with no sides

[severe rampart]

Why me as an example

[river vector]

I project onto my BBEG only lol

[primal wolf]

getting crit is like top 3 ways to get a dead PC though, so a 1st level spell that makes that way less likely is really good?

[worn lagoon]

It's an omen.

[barren badger]

Maybe it's because my players all have relatively high ACs and i just like, don't hit them that much

[glad arch]

Insert gif of ralph sitting on the bus chuckling 'im in danger'

[woven flint]

Two of my Seven characters are just immune to crits 🧐
Neither use Adamantine

[severe rampart]

This is why I took silvery barbs

[worn lagoon]

Ah, I cloudkill them in a small room.

[crystal latch]

True, I meant this in the context of PCs critting

[barren badger]

its a tough line because I dont WANT to kill my players or keep them from having fun

[primal wolf]

can confirm playing an ACmaxxxer PC sucks mega hard because the GM will always throw saves at you and never attack you anyway

[barren badger]

i want to ride the line in the middle.

[worn lagoon]

Echo's party used so many counterspells to avoid cloudkill, then fireball. Yeah sure they avoided a lot of potential damage but they're also spent two encounters into the day.

[woven flint]

Warforged Pugilist with the Juggernaut feat from Exploring Eberron (literally built different)

Artificer has the Legendary armor from that book which makes you immune to crits and gives you advantage on all saves against magical effects 🧐

[worn lagoon]

And do I have more enemies in store that could do worse than cloudkill coming up? Yes, yes I do.

Can they survive? Probably.

[severe rampart]

I have 2 level 3, and 1 level 4 spell slots left

[crystal latch]

I just build to have both good AC and good saves

[crimson gulch]

can they survive is the question for the players not the DM

[barren badger]

I like to have lots of little goblins hit my high ac players, i like to bunch up enemies so they can fireball them.

This was more applicable in 2014, but its the same reason you should shoot your monks arrows

[rough basalt]

Huh?

[worn lagoon]

My party is subjected to so many saving throws, their ac doesn't come up as much.

[crystal latch]

19/24 AC, prof in Con/Wis/Cha, planar bind chwingas, Favored by the Gods 1/SR

[barren badger]

Interesting DMing style.

[worn lagoon]

Consequence of fighting demons and devils that commonly have spellcasting I suppose.

[crimson gulch]

because all the dm says is They can Certianly Try

[rough basalt]

idk whats going on

[barren badger]

The DMs should try to balance encounters. It shouldnt just be "I hope you can survive this"

[buoyant oar]

I'm all for people optimizing and having a good time. But the moment that an optimizer pulls out their spreadsheet is game over for me. I'm tapping out

[crimson gulch]

i balance encoutners to get to the point of uncertian survival, that is where we find our biggest victories

[barren badger]

This is not a DM vs Player game :]

[flint ledge]

Recent goblin encounter the players had to fight against they used call lighting and lightning bolt on a group of regular goblin warriors 😭

[worn lagoon]

I've balanced it well enough, they should be able to survive. If they don't then whoop.

[severe rampart]

the dice tell the story

[rough basalt]

Sure but, things don't always go as they should

[primal wolf]

My character sheet is in google sheets so guess i'm donezo

[barren badger]

Burn those high level spell slots >:]

[jolly canyon]

oh so its my fault my party of 4 lvl 6s couldnt beat 25 mind flayers!?

[worn lagoon]

But also I'm going to kill echo for fun

[barren badger]

bait your players into casting fire ball. Ask them if they want to upcast

[rough basalt]

And depending on the campaign, encounters where the goal is to just survive can be good

[buoyant oar]

Having a character sheet and g sheets is fine. Making pivot tables to optimize your spells is a whole other story

[river vector]

it's what my characters would do

[primal wolf]

pivot tables like using wizards spellswapping feature?

[river vector]

what, the mind flayers would hold back? NAH /j

[barren badger]

my character would stay home and not go into this scary dungeon

[rough basalt]

Like in ToA a level 1 party can end up running into a cr8/9 monster, and they should run away

[buoyant oar]

I've been in a bit of a role-play kick in one of my campaigns. These guys haven't rolled initiative in 3 and 1/2 weeks

[rough basalt]

thats not the dm being unfair thats the Chult Jungle being unfair

[barren badger]

basically my players while they were stuck in vallaki -_-

[crystal latch]

99% of 5e optimization is

• pick a fullcaster class
• invest in your defenses
• choose good spells
• coordinate spell picks with your party

[river vector]

I have to tell my players that they can run away lol

[flint ledge]

I think they feel a bit too safe because most days this far have consisted of a 1-2 hard encounters instead if multiple per day

[river vector]

they don't ever want to run

[primal wolf]

My current campaign is having the same thing happen because my PC is too good

[worn lagoon]

feels like part of it is also "don't pick bard under lv10"

[crystal latch]

I mean yeah

[rough basalt]

"I'm from insert city and i say killem all"

[river vector]

They have ego or something and want to beat my villains

[primal wolf]

Mark of Handling bard funny

[crystal latch]

I pretty much just play warlock and wizard, druid's good too

[river vector]

which is fine, but when you are getting your bottom kicked, you run lmao

[worn lagoon]

I lowkey only play sorcerers and warlocks

[crystal latch]

Cleric is something I view as a 1-level prestige class

[flint ledge]

Can't wait to throw a brick at them on their current town defense quest by having a bunch of encounters

[barren badger]

Oooh. here's a fun question. Would you all allow the Dragonmark feats outside of ebberon?

[buoyant oar]

For me I run very very slow paced games. The last campaign that I completed started with all the characters around age 21 and ended in their '60s.

[worn lagoon]

though my upcoming mizzmage is palazard 1/x

[crystal latch]

Yes

[buoyant oar]

I personally would not allow the dragon marks outside of their setting

[crystal latch]

Not hard to reflavor "as a feat you get more magic"

[barren badger]

they seem very impactful

[primal wolf]

hey at least bigfish managed to make me pick a new subclass of cleric, taking forge because guns are a holy symbol of Gond.

[worn lagoon]

yeah, sure. but they could also have picked one any feat in its place, so it's up to them. i like handing everyone a free non-origin feat that fits their character.

[barren badger]

I think they're just a bit toooo much for most campaigns. It's essntially a subclass feature for spellcasters

[buoyant oar]

Precisely if I'm running in a specific setting in my experience, I'm doing it specifically because of the availability of options and the limitations of said setting

[crystal latch]

Can't wait for big big fish to happen

[flint ledge]

I do not know the dragon mark feats so I can't comment

[rough basalt]

In my setting I allow them but we need to work out how to make it work with reflavoring

[severe rampart]

as a kid they were a magic prodigy but never ended up learning more than two cantrips and a level 1 spell

[worn lagoon]

potent dragonmark though

having essentially a pactslot for your dragonmark is really cool

[barren badger]

oh you want a free casting of conjure elemental once a day? Go for it!

[crystal latch]

5e/5.5e power creeping casters is just another Tuesday tbf, I've given up hope for balance so I'll just appreciate the extra build variety

[worn lagoon]

i'll start off with find steed because i deserve a flying mount tbh

you bet i'm pulling up on the back of a wyvern if you let me cast find steed at fourth level or higher

[rough basalt]

My games pacing is usually quick

[buoyant oar]

But yeah, I would much rather you pick a background or feat that is more closely tied to the setting that you are playing in rather than trying to mechanically better yourself by picking something completely unrelated and then asking me to help you bend it backwards to fit

[trim stump]

Guys what if I accidentally ate my dm

[barren badger]

if only backgrounds didnt affect ability scores...

[jolly canyon]

happens often. youre fine

[worn lagoon]

it happens

[crimson gulch]

Customizing your backrounds is fine to

[primal wolf]

Ultimately anything that you're banning or nerfing because "Casters don't need it and they'll overshine martials" is moot because casters will always overshine them anyway and unless you're seriously rebalancing the game for those 4 classes you're just dragging everyone else down because of their uselessness. It's like nerfing characters in a game like don't starve because the joke character is so much weaker than them.

[river vector]

my party is about to get betrayed by the mayor of the town, he sold them out to vampires, and the vampire spawn will kill the mayor, emerging from the shadows for a fight.

[trim stump]

Ok good. Was worried for a sec

[rough basalt]

Like my monday party is level 6 and close to two months has passed ingame

[crimson gulch]

nah, casters are humbled just fine by long adventuring days and properly challanging encounters

[crystal latch]

Doubt

[buoyant oar]

No he's right. Don't let them rest

[barren badger]

Its not really banning them, its just that RAW Dragonmarks cannot be taken in non eberron campaigns.

[river vector]

one vampire spawn is fine for a party of third levels, even if I abuse spider climb

[crystal latch]

"long adventuring days fix the disparity" is just one of those moments that prove conventional wisdom doesn't work in 5e

[buoyant oar]

If your 15th level wizard only has three spell slots at the end of the day he's going to be sweating a lot more than the fighter who's just going to keep on swinging

[barren badger]

2024 doesnt even recommend a certain number of encounters a day

[worn lagoon]

i've had 8 encounter days as a caster and felt fine tbh

[crimson gulch]

that is the conventional wizdom that works though

[crystal latch]

If your casters are at a low enough optimization level that long adventuring days solve the disparity you probably didn't have much of a disparity with those builds anyway

[rough basalt]

ye last time i was in t4 it was the fighter automatically hitting the lich for a crapload of damage every round that saved us

[river vector]

I could just stay on the roof and regen while only a few can try to hit me.

[primal wolf]

I've had 8 encounter days and only used 1 slot

[karmic echo]

i never liked long adventure days in the sense that like. i never cared much for the small encounters

[crystal latch]

I've done 140-encounter days with a 4-man all caster party

[crimson gulch]

hahaha

[buoyant oar]

I wouldn't say that long adventuring days fully fix the caster disparity. As the vast majority of the disparity in my opinion lies in out of combat scenarios

[worn lagoon]

i'm not even surprised coming from you

[crystal latch]

Level 10 all-caster party and it was a module

[worn lagoon]

like i do not doubt this statement in the slightest bc its haen

[atomic kayak]

"Low enough optimization" aka at least 90% of all characters and players

[rough basalt]

id argue 95% at least

[atomic kayak]

Actually that's lowballing. 97% at minimun

[rough basalt]

True

[karmic echo]

its funny my table has 1 PC that is clearly optimizing, but they are optimizing for just taking a lot of hits

[crimson gulch]

i rock out 3 combats a session on average, so that would be 46 sessions on one adventuring day, 140 encounters? really?

[karmic echo]

they stood in front of a fantasy tank last session

[worn lagoon]

me when i pull up as an agathys abjurer tempest cleric abomination

[karmic echo]

and just like, held it while surviving the damage from being run over

[crystal latch]

The specific module was four consecutive runs of Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth without long rests in between, run as a stress test

It did not take long

[primal wolf]

I have a PC like this but it's for mid-op games

[paper portal]

i wonder how far we'll get with bbf

sil will probably double it and give it to the next person

[crystal latch]

I will bet a fish that at least one group in Big Big Fish will do 5+ full runs

[karmic echo]

he was like

[primal wolf]

what am i a chairty? The only thing i'm giving is my DM a stroke

[karmic echo]

going up to the tank, casting blade ward and going come at me bro

[crystal latch]

The best moves of both teams will be featured in the next chapter of HPATSI

[karmic echo]

he is fighter 3 - wild magic sorcerer 1 rn

[paper portal]

ill do my best 🫡 i am however playing a monk

[buoyant oar]

Yeah, I think the 140 counter sounds pretty hyperbolic. How many spell slots in total does a wizard have at level 10? Was it just a bunch of trivial encounters that could be knocked out with cantrips?

[crimson gulch]

yeah thats some softball games by the sounds of it

[barren badger]

get that wizard a crossbow

[primal wolf]

🐍 Snusket shout out

[crystal latch]

I have a full list of the encounters in the module somewhere, but a lot of it is just solvable with one or two slots as is the norm for 5e encounters

[worn lagoon]

most encounters can be knocked out with cantrips tbf

[paper portal]

its an official dnd module lol

[river vector]

vampire spawn just chilling on the wall, regening while melee can't do anything

[worn lagoon]

also i think haen runs 2 wizard 2 warlock often so many of these casts might've been a warlock pact slot

[paper portal]

which yeah is super easy but by dnd definitions has a mix of easy and hard encounters

[atomic kayak]

Likely included a lot of the not RAW "RAW" that is popular in hiop circles

[barren badger]

New dnd adventure idea. A magic spell has been cast on your heart. if you sleep, YOU DIE. You must kill the lich before you sleep.

magical stimulants are available

[prime basin]

plays a warforged

[crystal latch]

Yeah it was 2wiz2lock, this was one of the tests for that comp when I was thinking of making the "best party comp" article

[river vector]

is the liches name freddy krueger?

[turbid vessel]

someone needs to read the "don't rest your head" system

[crystal latch]

3/4 of the module just gets solved by sleet storm

[worn lagoon]

that checks out

[paper portal]

nah that's sil's specialty not haen's (well he does use entirely actual RAW not youtube shorts asspulls)

[atomic kayak]

Im not referring to YouTube shorts stuff.

[near karma]

you're describing youtube shorts not actual optimizers

[primal wolf]

my Hexclock replacement seems like it was right but in the wrong way so far

[prime basin]

feet storm is a better spell IMO but you do you

[worn lagoon]

what the hell is feet storm

[atomic kayak]

The fact you both think I am tells me you are referring to the stuff I am thinking of

[primal wolf]

I read this on Ao3 once

[river vector]

twitch just chatting

[worn lagoon]

i take back my question

[severe rampart]

what did I walk in on

[paper portal]

feet storm apparently

and 2wiz2lock

[prime basin]

Look into your heart and you'll find the answer

[paper portal]

but cus optimization tends to beat encounters on a scale most people dont really consider possible within the bounds of the game people assume it wasnt legitimately done in some way or another

[barren badger]

@minor cargo wtf loll

[crystal latch]

Some of the highlights of LCoT encounter-wise include

• vampire but worse, CR 15
• adult black dragon
• dao
• de facto Minecraft mob spawner that prints mid-level demons

[paper portal]

what level was this at again i forgot

[crystal latch]

10

[paper portal]

yeah 4x sounds pretty simple then

[crystal latch]

Shout out to the one encounter that's like four poisonous snakes
Or twenty stirges

[paper portal]

the moment you get 5th level slots everything is just easy

[worn lagoon]

i wish sorcerers showed up more often in high op

[crystal latch]

Same

[worn lagoon]

its always wizlock parties from what ive seen

[karmic echo]

the all cleric team the a-men

[worn lagoon]

occasionally starring a wis caster

[primal wolf]

we've got a clockwork sorc in our team

[paper portal]

theyre 4th best class but tbh closer to the best than to the 5th best

[primal wolf]

I've got 1 level in cleric-

[worn lagoon]

makes sense

[buoyant oar]

At a certain point though, High optimization is like doing jump skips in a game. Yes, the game will let you do it for speedrunning purposes. But it's definitely not within the spirit of how the game is meant to be played.

[prime basin]

As a player of this game but sadly not very often, I literally at this point think i'm just going to start making homebrew subclasses for my characters

I don't know how some people can play the same subclass over and over again

[buoyant oar]

When I play with people over and over again, I request that they pick a different species and class for every subsequent character

[paper portal]

its like wizard > warlock > druid > sorc >> cleric/bard >> ranger >> arti > pallie >>> monk > fighter > rogue > barb

[crystal latch]

Tbh LCoT is kind of a warmup adventure, my favorite op exam is

BGDiA but you start at level 11, never level up, all encounters are tripled, you don't regain resources for long resting (but still do it to avoid exhaustion), you have one day and one normal long rest of prep time before starting, normal starting equipment for your level, you have to fight Zariel

[steel moth]

cleric and bard on the same level is crazy work

[primal wolf]

depending on how high you go yes but a lot of this is "I use phantom steed and move out of the enemies attack range", that's hardly jump-skips or glitches, it's just pressing S on the keyboard

[prime basin]

ranger getting crazy levels of glaze

[paper portal]

clerics fall off pretty rapidly between like midhigh and high cus of most of their stuff being short range

[crystal latch]

UA mystic one step below ranger

[paper portal]

theyre the only half caster that actually does anything

[prime basin]

stares at paladin

[steel moth]

that leads into my point, cleric should be lower

[paper portal]

pallies get one useful feature thats not even that useful

[crystal latch]

It's more that their stuff isn't as impressive as the wizard spell list, so when you have a situation where one spell shuts down the encounter and you ask a cleric if they have it the answer is probably no

[barren badger]

Ranger above paladin is literally insane

[steel moth]

bard is better

[severe rampart]

Bards are awesome

[paper portal]

oh i thought you meant they should be higher lol, personally i think bards are terrible cus theyre useless until level 10 personally

[barren badger]

artificer above paladin is insane too

[paper portal]

thats optimization for you

[prime basin]

Are you the upcoming ragebait class lead designer?

[crystal latch]

Useless is an overstatement, bard is still a fullcaster

[worn lagoon]

bards become a real class at lv10

[crystal latch]

But it has more problems than most

[severe rampart]

Vicious Mockery dealing 1d4 (now 1d6) damage is horrendous, yes.

[paper portal]

no we're just talking about high op where pallies have pretty much no real use

[buoyant oar]

I mean phantom steed can be disrupted by a simple AOE also the fact that it takes a full minute to cast.

[severe rampart]

this is why I'm multiclassing into warlock, sweet sweet Eldritch Blast

[paper portal]

ranger can like maybe do something with the transgender rifle at least (24d8 necrotic damage)

[worn lagoon]

generally you cast ps ahead of time as a ritual

[barren badger]

Rangers perform worse at high levels.

[primal wolf]

Wizard
Warlock
Bard / Sorc
Druid
[Gap]
Cleric
[Gap]
Ranger / Arti / Pally
[Gap]
Monk / Fighter
Barbarian / Rogue

[crystal latch]

Bard's big issue in 5e is that you need a significantly larger level investment to get both hex2 for good at-will and both Shield and AE on the same build, 3 levels is a very painful dip on a class that relies on Magical Secrets to get significant value out of many of its slots

[buoyant oar]

That doesn't remove the fact that a simple AOE spell can disrupt it because if it takes any damage it ends.

[prime basin]

The transgender rifle?

[paper portal]

true but they still can reach a higher level of optimization than any other half caster

[buoyant oar]

Actually not even in AOE since it has the statistics of a riding horse. Just give the goblin a bow and arrow

[paper portal]

gargantuan antimatter rifle, its easier to just say transgender

[primal wolf]

Bard really hurts the most when you ban spell backgrounds and races huh

wait cleric

[prime basin]

That is an insane nickname for a rifle but okay

[crimson gulch]

Phantom steed is a travel spell, useless in combat

[barren badger]

I think they put out significantly less damage than most other classes above Tier 1.5

[paper portal]

blasts you with my transgender beam

[crystal latch]

My 2014 class ranking (barely changes in 24) is
S: Wizard, Warlock, Druid
A: Sorc
A-: Cleric, Bard
B: Ranger
C: UA mystic, Paladin, Arti
D: Monk (ranged)
E: Fighter
F: Rogue, barbarian, monk (melee)

[severe rampart]

Monk and Fighter so far down???

[paper portal]

depends what class youre comparing them to, they do better than every martial and half caster but worse than every fullcaster by a mile yeah

[primal wolf]

"it makes your pronouns was/were" 😎

[paper portal]

martials are dead weight at best in high op

[severe rampart]

oh high op

[woven flint]

Instead of Tiens Tri-Beam its Trans-Beam!

[prime basin]

Too real

[paper portal]

see exactly, transgender rifle

[prime basin]

This ranking disgusts me

[halcyon bison]

how come your transgener beam is so much more powerful than mine ;w;

[feral fulcrum]

Well, no more useless then a normal mount.

[severe rampart]

nothing changes, ...I have some reflecting to do

[paper portal]

cus im more transgender >:3

[crystal latch]

Tbh I might be overrating mystic considering how bad its disciplines are, there's like 5-8 good powers in total

[crimson gulch]

One damage and it's gone

[barren badger]

is op high level? and are we talking 2014 or 2024?

[halcyon bison]

no fair :<

[woven flint]

My gender is

Mischief/Silly

[feral fulcrum]

It takes an entire minute to fully dissapate you know

[severe rampart]

I thought it was Goofy

[paper portal]

optimization, and 2014 cus thats what most optimizers play but its about the same in 2024 anyways

[feral fulcrum]

That's a full combat where it still functions as a mount.

[barren badger]

The damage die of your Hunter's Mark is a d10 rather than a d6.```


This has to be one of the worst level 20 abilities in the game

[paper portal]

yeah

[prime basin]

is*

[woven flint]

Goofy/Mischief/Silly/Goober/Doofus

[primal wolf]

also it's a ritual

[feral fulcrum]

It's complete doodoo, yes

[crimson gulch]

The spell ends early if the steed takes any damage.

[woven flint]

Enough to make a grown man shed tears of joy

[paper portal]

but the steed only dissipates a minute after the spell ends

which is enough time to close out the combat

[crimson gulch]

Ends is Ends

[prime basin]

Tears of despair, pity, and longing more like

[barren badger]

I'm really enjoying genie paladin. It feels rather impactful

[feral fulcrum]

Key bit you haven't read buddy. " When the spell ends, the steed gradually fades, giving the rider 1 minute to dismount. "

[frail mural]

Guys, do you know a ukranian dnd server?

[woven flint]

Artificer is fun, I don't care what anyone has to say
Your opinon holds no bars over my FUN

[crimson gulch]

Right after that is The spell ends early if the steed takes any damage.

[primal wolf]

Even not considering the minute to end thing you can just be outside of enemy range with it

[paper portal]

yeah the stuff we're talking about rn its not a reflection of the average game rn, paladin will be plenty fine at the vast majority of tables

[crystal latch]

Notably, in order for a steed to dissipate after being hit it has to be hit first
This thing has a 200ft kiting speed in a melee-heavy game

[paper portal]

arti is like about average as far as classes go :3

[worn lagoon]

phantom steed is such a crazy spell that it pisses me off to no end that it's wizard exclusive

[feral fulcrum]

And read the wording

[severe rampart]

Misty Step for us commoners

[woven flint]

The Tokii cares not of the opinion of the serverfolk

[crimson gulch]

Yeah it says it Ends early

[feral fulcrum]

When the spell ENDS, it dissapates over the course of a Minute

[crystal latch]

PSteed is also great in dungeons because corners are real

[paper portal]

dnd players are allergic to reading wording that contradicts their interpretation of other wording

[worn lagoon]

asdx is right

[paper portal]

had this same experience yesterday where someone refused to read the first half of a feature because of how they thought the second half worked

[buoyant oar]

Yeah, I think Jeremy Crawford even mentioned on phantom steed that you can't use it while the spell ends even during the one minute cooldown

[woven flint]

You're all wrong, for I am right and we know that I'm a reliable source 🧠 💥 /silly

[paper portal]

good thing random jc tweets arent part of the rules

[severe rampart]

Should I invest in BaroviaCoin

[woven flint]

No, Invest in Abyssalcoin
Demogorgon won't rugpull you like Strahd would
He's evil but not that evil

[buoyant oar]

I mean it even makes sense in the raw ruling.

[severe rampart]

I kinda owe Demogorgon some gold, maybe something else

[karmic echo]

the only place in the multiverse that bothers with electrum pieces

[steel moth]

Invest in Soul coins to feed my wife karlach

[primal wolf]

I think they disagree with how you're reading it because the "minute to dismount" also constitutes time to move to a good spot, though even with the less powerful wording interpretation phantom steed is just such a good movement tool that lets you sit confortable out of range of the monster while shooting from afar for a huge number of encounters

[buoyant oar]

The duration of the spell has ended so any effects of the spell have also ended. It just gives you a 1-minute cooldown time to dismount. It does not mention that the horse remains fully functional after it takes damage

[crystal latch]

PSteed is funny but the upgrade is even funnier
Planar bind a dybbuk today

[severe rampart]

"I'll pay you... 50 electrum pieces"

Every single player: "What the hell is an electrum piece"

[paper portal]

i play by the rules they wrote, not what i think they meant by it

[woven flint]

Jokes on you, I don't give a damn about your starving wife /joking

[paper portal]

RAI is nonsense unless you have a confirmed ruling from SAC or something

[karmic echo]

"ok so copper silver gold platinum i get", "but what the hell is a electrum!!??"

[primal wolf]

True, but that's eating into my snake binding budget

[woven flint]

Hey, I'll have you know... I love eating Electrum

I love consuming ancient currencies

NO, I am NOT Mammon.

[severe rampart]

"Silver here is banned..."

That player who didn't pick up the hairbrush with silver bristles back in the manor

[barren badger]

it does have a minute casting time, doesnt it?

[karmic echo]

misty step being so busted will always be funny to me

what do you mean its only component is verbal

[woven flint]

All I have to say is...
I would ragebait, but anger is temporary, silly is forever.

[paper portal]

worst* full caster is still a full caster

-# *many people think cleric is worse

[obtuse stratus]

It's like no one is studying ancient currencies or jewelry. Come on, electrum is essential!

[woven flint]

Heyo, Oxy, how ya've been?

[primal wolf]

Bard's not bad it's just hampered by its bad spell list while trying to share the arcane caster niche along with the 3 best classes in the game

[obtuse stratus]

Pretty good, keeping myself out of trouble with the wife, kinda got lonely when I got home from work

[woven flint]

Many people are STOOPID and CRING!

[severe rampart]

No?

[paper portal]

true i agree

cleric > bard imo :3

[primal wolf]

I say as i continue to never play bard

[woven flint]

Cleirc is like... my Second Favorite class

[paper portal]

cleric is maybe 3rd for me

[obtuse stratus]

A truly SHOCKING statement

[severe rampart]

Bards are just amazing

[prime basin]

Cleirc

[severe rampart]

though I have made more warlocks than bards

[woven flint]

My favorite is Monk 🧐

[buoyant oar]

I really like it when a cleric goes into the role play of their deity or religion that they have chosen. Especially when they work it into their subclass that they've chosen

[woven flint]

Silence, mortal

[crystal latch]

I'm a warlock main but I also play wizard and ranger

[obtuse stratus]

My favorite is the Pf1e sorcerer.

[crystal latch]

I also like the 3.5e dread necromancer

[halcyon bison]

I thought cleric was pretty strong when I played it. I got many opportunities to make use of 2024's divine intervention for instant hallow

[obtuse stratus]

Charisma caster, undead HP are based on charisma.....

[paper portal]

5/6 monk?? 👀

[severe rampart]

Was there a scenario that got you trapped into a corner, as a monk?

[obtuse stratus]

"I became the tank!"

[woven flint]

My favorite TTRPG class is Gaurdian from Pathfinder 2e.

[barren badger]

OH. you mean misty step is for the commoners. I thought you were implying you could use Phantom steed IN PLACE of misty step

[primal wolf]

I'm a wizard main who sometimes plays sorcerer

[prime basin]

Gaurdian

[jagged sentinel]

Someone today likened the Fey in Forgotten Realms as being similar to aliens in their understanding of mortals, and now I can't stop thinking of fey tourists in the mortal realm.

[woven flint]

Gaurdian, yes

[prime basin]

Gardenin

[crystal latch]

My favorite d20 class is either 5e warlock or SW Saga Edition Sith Apprentice

[worn lagoon]

i like sorcerers

[severe rampart]

I got a way of the sun monk player that I'm looking to expand on their lore with Lathander

[barren badger]

Laguardian

[prime basin]

Warolck

[primal wolf]

Misty step is good too, you never know when you might need to teleport 30ft

[woven flint]

No, seriously though, Gaurdian is like... my martial fantasy class
Big guy in heavy armor taking brutal attacks and shielding their allies like a chad

[barren badger]

we love fey touched

[obtuse stratus]

Set up an early world like this. Gnomes were asylum seekers running from Firbolgs. Most of the rest popped in just to have their minds boggled by the simpletons

[prime basin]

Why do you type it gaurdian?

[woven flint]

Guardian*

[prime basin]

So paladins?

[woven flint]

Paladins but with no magic and more bullying your enemies

[barren badger]

So fighter?

[obtuse stratus]

Cavalier

[prime basin]

Purple Dragon Knight

[barren badger]

Banneret (spelling?)

[steel moth]

i main cleric i guess

mainly because i like the paladin flavor

[obtuse stratus]

Wait.. i feel like we're summoning something here....

BARBARIAN

[prime basin]

Way of the Ascendant Dragon Monk?

[woven flint]

Pathfinder 2e's Guardian Class flavor text:
"Death and danger from all manner of enemies threaten all that you and your companions hold dear. But you are the shield, the steel wall that holds back the tide of opposition. You’re clad in armor you wear like a second skin and can angle it to protect yourself and your allies from damage and keep foes at bay. Allies look to you to safeguard them, whether they stand beside you on the battlefield or remain on the back lines, and enemies see you for the imposing threat you are. Be it to friend or foe, your presence is difficult to ignore."

[barren badger]

The Grim Hollow fighter subclass is pretty cool

[woven flint]

Guardians are all about grappling, shoving, slamming, shielding allies and taunting and I love them

But anyway

[feral fulcrum]

Guardian is one of those big (Often dumb) guys I forget the name of from Fire Emblem. The ones in the hilariously giant armor.

[prime basin]

So a battlemaster fighter?

[woven flint]

Battlemaster fighter but honestly.. way better lmao

[prime basin]

It is a full class so yeah I guess

[woven flint]

I wish we had like.. a Shield Master fighter subclass

[prime basin]

I will go on record to say paladin is the best martial class of 2024

[jagged sentinel]

I like imagining the DnD equivalent to modern jobs, like imagine a barbarian babysitter: "I swear upon my bloodline, I will slaughter all those who would harm your young... other than that are there any allergies I should be made aware of?"

[woven flint]

Erm, ACKSHUALLY It's a Half-Caster 🤓 /silly

[glad arch]

When the best martial is the one that can cast spells

[feral fulcrum]

Given that mechanically shields are a bit of an afterthought, it proabbly wouldn't be any good in 5E.

[woven flint]

That's.. why you make the subclass add mechanics to Shields? Hello?

I'm sorry to be rude, but... 🗿

[primal wolf]

shields should maybe get some more unique mechanics to themselves as well, +2 ac for the sake of taking up one of your two hands isn't the most interesting

[woven flint]

This too

[feral fulcrum]

Whatever you say bucko.

[prime basin]

Shields should get a push mechanic for sure

[hot reef]

You can already do a push though

[prime basin]

yeah but I mean like some enhanced version of that

[hot reef]

And shield master has that already

[prime basin]

like maybe they go further, you get advantage, etc

[prime basin]

Yeah but shield master doesn't really need that

You're telling me I need a feat to push someone and potentially knock them prone?

[undone rain]

That does sound pretty unessesary

[prime basin]

it gives other benefits but I'm talking about that part specifically

[hot reef]

As a BA yeah
It’d be too mechanically heavy to add that type of feature to a simple item
Maybe if they had shield types, they could give it to the more expensive ones

[rough basalt]

well the kicker is its a BA

and also shield master has other useful effects

[prime basin]

Yeah I know

but that specific ability to me doesn't seem like it should be something that everybody couldn't use

[undone rain]

Well thats what i was pointing to lol

[rough basalt]

Oh wait '24 shield master lets you do it as part of the attack

[prime basin]

Literally everybody knows how to use a shield and how advantageous it is

[rough basalt]

Not efficiently

[lavish flame]

I wish most ways to Push did like... more diatance. 5ft pushes aren't nearly as cool as 15ft pushes

[rough basalt]

Theres a difference between holding a shield up and knowing how to use a shield

[prime basin]

you mean the thing you use to block swings and push people because its a giant (usually metal) object?

I'll admit not everyone knows how to perfectly use a shield but using a big object to PUSH someone isn't exactly rocket science

[hot reef]

Not really, I’m not very familiar with how shields are used but there’s skill involved in defending from swords/spears effectively (although this is the opposite of the feat’s cover benefits and will depend on the type of shield)

[rough basalt]

Do you realize how hard it is to push a full able bodied person or creature to the ground in a few seconds while they're fighting you?

[livid owl]

I actually don't know but can you do two weapon fighting with a shield on?

[hidden spindle]

There's a reason why Shield Training confers the bonus +2 to AC while no training doesn't

[prime basin]

THATS WHAT A STRENGTH SAVING THROW IS FOR

[primal wolf]

Not particularly difficult?

[rough basalt]

You really don't need a strength save for a guy wimpily bumping you with a Shield.

[jagged sentinel]

Is it weird that I'm only thinking of slice of life stuff?

[rough basalt]

Unless you're larping and playing up the act

[primal wolf]

BA doesn't mean "Wimpily" it just means "In addition to the main thing i'm doing"

[rough basalt]

Yes cause you're a master with a Shield and know how to use it better than anyone else.

[prime basin]

Me when I finally learn that I can use my shield to push someone over

[primal wolf]

it doesn't really take a whole lot of training to push someone

[rough basalt]

You'd be surprised

[prime basin]

Did you know you can use your hands to push someone over?

[rough basalt]

The person isn't standing there letting you push them.

[primal wolf]

When I did HEMA people got upset because i kept pushing them over with my shield

[prime basin]

This is why we have a strength save

so if they succeed on the check they succeed on the check

[rough basalt]

But it's not all about strength

It's about precision and knowing when to do it at the right opportune time.

[hidden spindle]

You don't say

[hot reef]

The point of Shield Master is to do it as a BA
Anyone can push someone with a shield with an action

[rough basalt]

It's more about timing than power

[prime basin]

True, I have to use my charisma to make the guy more vulnerable

[rough basalt]

No you're just being obtuse

[primal wolf]

Seduction check

[prime basin]

Shield master doesn't use a BA in 2024

[craggy summit]

Also technically leverage if we're talking wrestling style takedowns. But d&d isn't a realism simulator

[rough basalt]

But it does have its own rules which are that just picking up a Shield doesn't make you able to knock down a veteran warrior cause you want to

[primal wolf]

at the very least it's a new tool for martials to play with

[rough basalt]

That's why feats exist.
So martials can pick the tools they wanna use.

[undone rain]

And thank god for that

[craggy summit]

Realism? In this game? With magic and fantasy creatures? No thanks ✋

[hidden spindle]

It would've been nice to have a cataloge of wrestling moves that disrupted Spell Components

[lavish flame]

I wish Shields had a variant to match Light Armor, Medium Armor, and Heavy Armor

[rough basalt]

They got rid of that for streamlining

[livid owl]

I still can't find anything saying you can't have a shield and employ two weapon fighting at the same time? Apparently it's a nebulous spot in the rules

[rough basalt]

It's cause there's only one species with several arms.

[hidden spindle]

You can do it. Just need to be aware of your weapons and your weapon hand

[undone rain]

Pfft no thanks. Im gonna have a goblin paladin that uses stilts to fit in the armor

[craggy summit]

I'd reckon anything aslong as you control the arms for somatic components 🤔

[potent vector]

Theoretically, you can, it's just that Shield take up a hand. So Thri-kreen can ye

[hot reef]

And it can’t use its extra arms for shields/weapons iirc

Can it do shields?

[woven flint]

Species often do have armor built to their size

[craggy summit]

Exactly the appeal of dnd 🙂‍↕️

[rough basalt]

I'm just saying. DnD has its rules and it believes that you need training to use a Shield exceptionally well. Not just pick it up and suddenly they can knock someone down whose probably taken Shield bashes to the face and walked it off.

[undone rain]

Yeah but thats not as fun

[potent vector]

Technically two, you can hold stuff with Plasmoid

[woven flint]

It can use light property weapons

[potent vector]

So for example you can use it to hold an Eldritch Cannon with Artificer for example

[livid owl]

Have I been screwing over my DMs because no one has ever mentioned this during combats 😭

[undone rain]

Imagine how funny it would be if their like over 6 feet tall in the armor but once they take it off their like 3 feet

[hidden spindle]

Unfortunately, Grappling does not state any such way it would stop Somatic Components

[undone rain]

Realism? But i want to be a sentient gelatinous cube

[prime basin]

Up your body fat percentage to 60 percent

[craggy summit]

I kinda feel like it should a little bit 🤔 but I guess it's more of a "grabbing the neck of your shirt/outfit" kinda grab

[undone rain]

Or a plasmoid

[rough basalt]

Like let's use the 300 movie for an example.
The Persians wooden shields may sometimes stop a spear or a sword slash cause that's regular Shield training. but it's the spartans using the shields as weapons cause they've been taught since birth to make anything that can be a weapon a deadly weapon.

[umbral girder]

There are magic items that do that

[potent vector]

Just a tad, one of the reasons the Dueling feat is apparently renowned for is giving you on average normal damage despite having a Shield, so if you were using a Shield AND two weapons that's equivalent (maybe more technically) to having an Extra Fighting Style.

[hot reef]

They don’t want a way for three level 2 barbarians to beat a level 18 wizard

[prime basin]

Do you lose 6 dexterity and half your movement with those?

[livid owl]

Gonna bring this up next time we play cuz I did not realize that's how it worked 😭 but that game was put on hiatus for a month so uh. Not imminent issue

[rough basalt]

Ultimately the real reason is that dnd 5e is a game where builds and feats to support them are a thing. But it's also streamlined.

[livid owl]

Sidenote but is there an advantage to mainly using daggers instead of something like a rapier?

[turbid vessel]

daggers and other light weapons let you do Two Weapon Fighting

[prime basin]

you can also throw daggers

[livid owl]

Rapier is light as well iirc

[turbid vessel]

they also can be thrown if you so desire

[rough basalt]

Polearm martials get PAM, Sentinel, GWM, heavy weapons get GWM and speedy to run people down. Mounted gets the Lance and mounted combatant

[prime basin]

No they are finesse weapons

[livid owl]

Oh really?

[potent vector]

A) Thrown property opportunities B) Higher Average damage (2d4 is .5 more dmg than 1d8)

[livid owl]

Not the x react lmao

[prime basin]

Light means that you can dual wield them, finesse means that you use dexterity for attacking with them

[rough basalt]

Sword and board defense heavy gets shield master and armor feats.

[potent vector]

No, there's a literal magic item where that is all it does.

Rare iirc

[prime basin]

So daggers have finnese and light (dual wielding and use dexterity for attacking and throwing), rapiers have finesse (no dual wielding but use dexterity for attacking and damage), and light hammers have light (meaning you can dual wield but they use strength)

[livid owl]

Hmmm
Might keep my Bloodhunter as a two weapon fighter and sacrifice his shield

He has the dex his AC is pretty OK anyway

[hidden spindle]

It reminded me of that D&D HAT when the single person was messing with the Sorcerer's Spellcasting Components

[rough basalt]

Now I want another game as a player so I can play another martial.

I wanna play a Fighter or Paladin again.

[livid owl]

Fighter is fun I really like the Psi Warrior subclass

[craggy summit]

I have 3 different martials on my "to play" list 😅

[deft reef]

Hey everyone I’m just getting started in dnd and have no friends to play with my friends don’t appreciate it as much as I do

[rough basalt]

Sometimes I wanna play casters but martials in 5.5 are just so much fun now

Now that a lot of martial feats aren't a waste to take. (Cause of the half feat change)

[livid owl]

You could always join an online game and make some new (online) friends!

[idle oar]

Check out #find-a-game to learn how to find a group/game to join.

Also see #dnd-newcomers

[craggy summit]

martials got such a glowup from 2014 in 2024 rules

[livid owl]

Fr fr

[deft reef]

That’s why I joined this discord I was looking into online play and this popped up

[hidden spindle]

The next caster I want to play is an Aberrant Dragonmark Sorcerer that uses True Strike with CON. Burning Spell Slots into Sorcery Points to Quicken it.

[rough basalt]

I wanna play a mounted paladin again

[craggy summit]

well paladin got the smite nerf but everyone else got much needed stuff

[potent vector]

(Except Ranger, which, ofc, STILL HAS NO NICHE™)

[idle oar]

We don't host games here but our Looking For Game channels can help folks find a group/game - again read #find-a-game carefully.

[deft reef]

I had created a whole world and story for my friends and they treated the game like a joke

[rough basalt]

I'm glad for the smite nerf.

[jagged sentinel]

I can't help myself but I keep thinking about what everyday life is like for a peasant in Faerun. Like imagine a daycare center with a playground with all the diverse races of Faerun running around while and old woman calmy watches over them because she's been doing this for years.

[rough basalt]

I wasn't happy initially but after playing '24 paladin I feel glad for it

[craggy summit]

Tbf they're still better considering they got rid of the whole favored terrain stuff 😅 I still don't think I'd play a ranger tho unless they get a subclass that blows my socks off

[rough basalt]

The buffs to several other paladin spells/smite spells as well as the other buffs offset the disappointment

[livid owl]

That sucks, I'm sorry. I'm sure you can find a group that will take your game seriously.

[potent vector]

I RLY don't think they went Abt it the right way. "Once per turn" was an easy way to nerf it, but now that it's a spell, you can't do it off turn and it can be Counterspelled. . .

[severe rampart]

That'd be beautiful, if it wasn't for the hundreds of backstories of rogues and such saying that their orphanage was terrible to them 😭

[rough basalt]

Well tbf a paladins gonna have a very good con save whenever counterspell becomes prevalent

And with the half feat change MAD classes can get good stats and feats

[potent vector]

I mean, it's better than 2014, but then they walked 1 step forward and 2 steps back from Tasha's

[potent vector]

Also, totally feel this bud, I hope future games you run are treated with more care.

[hot reef]

The once a turn part is good but I don’t like it being a spell

[jagged sentinel]

I'm imagining very sweet old human lady sitting on a bench, teaching a young Tiefling boy needlepoint, all the while a dragonborn kid is giving a dwarf kid a piggyback ride.

[rough basalt]

I think it's fair.

Especially cause new CS isn't just boom gone

For players anyway

[craggy summit]

It's definitely a fair change. Paladins can do insane damage if they smite on all their attacks

[hidden spindle]

They received a lot of buffs, including free casting of Hunter's Mark

[hidden spindle]

Spell Scroll of Divine Smite!

[craggy summit]

As a paladin enjoyer, I'm not a fan of it (lemme be overpowered :c) but it's a healthy change

[keen kestrel]

fortunately, the new level 11 feature is really good

and it makes you feel like you're smiting all the time anyway

[hot reef]

Only paladins can use it ):

[craggy summit]

That is such a lovely feature indeed

[river vector]

Me when my party only knows my villain as "red eyes guy"

[potent vector]

Yeah, numbers wise it's good I don't deny, but broken record: nothing it does that someone can't do better, even being Jack of All Trades master of none.

[rough basalt]

You can also make an enspelled weapon of divine smite

So you can have more smites

[keen kestrel]

especiallly since I'm playing a dual wielding dexadin, it's so fun

[potent vector]

This is an optional rule, so hard to count that

[craggy summit]

That sounds like some big damage goodness 😭

[rough basalt]

Eh not really

[keen kestrel]

it's... a good amount, especially with conjure minor elementals (genie paladin go brrrrr)

[hot reef]

Might have this in my campaign as bandages that you wrap around the weapon to use

[rough basalt]

Crafting is core. It's just dms will probably not allow it cause they will think it breaks the game (it doesn't)

[keen kestrel]

who needs divine smite when I can do ridiculous amounts of damage anyway

[jagged sentinel]

That'd be a nice subversion, "My parents dropped me off at the village daycare while they went adventuring, the old lady was nice, taught me cantrips."

[craggy summit]

I've been wanting to play genie paladin forever 😭 I'm just waiting for a campaign to play it

[rough basalt]

It only breaks the game when you homebrew crafting haphazardly

[potent vector]

40ft fly speed teamwide for dirt cheap with Brooms is broken, I'm sorry

[hidden spindle]

Enspelled Divine Smite!

[potent vector]

It rly does break things

[rough basalt]

Eh not really.

[dark pewter]

Flying is easily countered by any effect that prones/incapacitates

[rough basalt]

Also for a whole party? That's like 40 to 50 days for the average table

[keen kestrel]

it's awesome I'm ngl

[rough basalt]

Lich may as well ended the world by that point

[fickle heart]

My issue with flying and similar stuff is moreso the heavy warping on exploration rather than combat concerns.

[rough basalt]

I'd just have airborne enemies attack them

[craggy summit]

The features look like they kick butt frfr 👀 I'm so excited to play one

[severe rampart]

I've just realized I'm cutting it close with my session times 😭

[keen kestrel]

it's way better when you're just rocking no armor and chilling

[rough basalt]

Or throw natural/supernatural disasters at them.

[craggy summit]

Imma try a dexadin for the first time when I play the genie paladin 👀

[fickle heart]

The fact that one feels compelled to respond to flight in exploration with that stuff is exactly what I take umbrage with flying for.

[rough basalt]

I mean it's flying.

[river vector]

How so?

We typically play for three hours

[severe rampart]

back to back sessions

[rough basalt]

Tho the 40 to 50 days worth of crafting I think is the bigger obstacle

[river vector]

I see lol

[severe rampart]

different campaigns

[hidden spindle]

I like Climbing more than Flight. I can't be shot down

-# or can i...

[fickle heart]

Aye, which largely invalidates most transporation issues in a game such as 5e.

[potent vector]

The majority of the entire Monster Manual can be beaten my firing Arrows from a long bow 250 ft up.

[severe rampart]

I have three monday games

[river vector]

What

[craggy summit]

That sounds very overwhelming 😭

[severe rampart]

12:00 AM, Monday - Descent into Avernus
4:00 AM, Monday - Settlers of a Dead God
1:00 PM, Monday - Infinite Staircase

[river vector]

12 am? 4am?

[severe rampart]

I know

[craggy summit]

Oh hey I just finished descent into Avernus yesterday 😅

[severe rampart]

start of the day

[rough basalt]

Oh I just throw wind at that

[severe rampart]

Do you do military time?

[potent vector]

Yeah, ofc stuff is not an issue when DM fiat is involved ... Not a very good argument since the premise assumes I want to change my game to fit this optional mechanic

[rough basalt]

Tho most of the time the usual occurrence is you can't get 250ft in the air in a tomb.

[severe rampart]

Two Saturday games and Three Monday games, so that's fun

[river vector]

Wtf

My noob ass thought playing twice a week was something lol

[fickle heart]

Flying in combat is much less of an issue in dungeons; 100% true. That's why I'm less concerned about flying in combat than exploration.

[rough basalt]

Huh. Didn't realize it was optional.
Still it ain't broken unless you're giving players infinite time off.

[severe rampart]

it aint a competition

you need not worry

[river vector]

Must be overwhelming

[severe rampart]

but yeah, I do have to consider my health, I might cut a game if session 1 wasn't fun

[jagged sentinel]

Not if you have the right snacks

[rough basalt]

I imagine the crafting rules aren't assuming the party makes 1000 gold then spends 2 months locked inside.

Narrative consequences come into play in those situations.

[potent vector]

Yeah, which is why it breaks things imo, needing to speed up plot for the sake of the fact that I don't want them to get ridiculous exploit like the 9th level spell slot Warlock dip isn't balanced.

[brittle beacon]

So how do you handle flight without interacting with it on the dm side like the stuff said above or environmental effects like strong wind.

[rough basalt]

It's not really needing to speed up plot

2 months is a long time

[potent vector]

. . . Less if they have help

[rough basalt]

Most dnd modules occur within a couple weeks of ingame time usually.

When things go to crap, they crap hard

If you go lock yourself away awhile when the word on the street is a nation's troops looking to invade their country, you can't be surprised when the invading army is knocking on your door wanting those brooms.

Tho "knocking" is an understatement. They're probably using a battering ram if they heard your magic item crafters. Gotta go in hot and fast.

[pure spoke]

Guys I have a content question for people who know. How kid friendly (5 and 10) are Dragon Delves or Adventures in Faerun? I only own Strahd and that's not happening. Wondering what the 5.5e adventures and campaign content is like in general

[potent vector]

Vro, I'm currently in a game that could easily last over a year in game, set in Ebberron, if we had optional crafting we could have them crafted asap rocky compared to the plot

Your assumption is fine, but I'm personally glad it's optional

[rough basalt]

So the crafting rules are broken in cases where players have infinite prep time? I can agree with that.

[hidden spindle]

I wouldn't mind if lv1s wanted to craft for years for Legendary Weapons... I wonder how that'll go...

[fickle heart]

It's been a while since I DM'd, but my go-to is to not allow it early on in levels, at least without reasonable drawbacks lol

That's not to say that flight is inherently broken, but I think flight does run into the same issue with flying mounts in WoW and FFXIV as it pertains to exploration. The world is suddenly much smaller and much easier to access once you can fly, and all sorts of interesting terrain challenges disappear. I loved FFXIV's way of doing it where you could only using flying mounts in a zone you've entirely quested through and there's nothing left to explore, really.

[obtuse stratus]

I mean I like BECMI games to happen over lifetimes and have time sinks built in, it'd be a heck of an adventure. Although that systen uses gp=xp and I think it helps to push things forward

[fickle heart]

I see it as more of a "level design" problem than a combat one, because flying might just make your allies get focused down harder and being part of a party that died because the damage couldn't get spread around due to you being so far away is tragic in its own way.

[rough basalt]

I just never actually see flight be used the way people always say it will be used.

But I'm also one of the only people I've met who played a permaflight race in a game I was in.

[sly crest]

I recently entered a campaign with an owlin. He's got a broken wing so he can only fly once a day.

[atomic kayak]

The thing with flight in exploration is largely the same as it is with in combat

Its not really something worth worrying about unless its the whole party

[jagged sentinel]

insert joke about drinking while flying here

[atomic kayak]

I've had plenty of scenarios where the flying party got into more trouble than they reasonably should have out of combat because they were "more easily" able to get somewhere

[sly crest]

He used it to threaten a giant octopus into letting me go

[rough basalt]

Ye also just cause crafting is allowed doesn't mean the entire party is gonna spend the downtime to all make Brooms of Flying or other flying magic items.

[atomic kayak]

(and thats besides the times where it often can just. Split the party)

[fickle heart]

My Druid frequently uses flying forms to scope out terrain in a very exploration-heavy campaign (when I'm not pulling the cart lul) and I've used it to extreme effect.

[rough basalt]

I don't think I've ever had a druid tbh

[sly crest]

(the octopus himself was merely hungry and became a usefull ally)

[frail wasp]

there's quite a number of challenges in a certain jungle'd hardcover that are completely defanged with flight

[atomic kayak]

Shoutout to that one player in a game I was in who, as the sole flying member, chose to fly out (by himself) over the giant (hundreds of feet) wide pool of water in a dark dungeon

He did not in fact, make it out of the dungeon

[paper portal]

i saw a campaign once that banned being able to craft animals and im still not sure what they meant by that

[atomic kayak]

We weren't in combat or anything, just exploring the dungeon

[frail wasp]

and there's even one challenge that says "if the party tries to bypass this with flight, just tell them 'it doesn't work'" without giving the DM any justification as to saying why it doesnt work

[rough basalt]

Craft what

[fickle heart]

This type of attitude being required is largely what I dislike, yeah.

[sly crest]

it's like that "Triceratops are Basque cheesecake" type videos

[paper portal]

animals, duh

[paper portal]

omg iron thorn like the pokemon

[rough basalt]

Insanity

[jagged sentinel]

Cha cha cha chia!

[lyric viper]

Are we doing Eurovision now?

[fickle heart]

I'm also particularly unfond of aspects of design where them being applied often requires a specific response because that affects "lower-skilled" members of a community more than it does "higher-skilled". Essentially, when something being an issue or not specifically comes down to the skill level of those involved.

[sly crest]

I'm actually named after the throwing weapon in the OG PMD. I still low-key struggle to believe that they named an entire robot Tyranitar after me

[jagged sentinel]

Chia pets!

[fast latch]

How would someone make a character with a Dexterity of 4?

[paper portal]

id feel honored if they named an entire robot tyranitar after me ngl

[sly crest]

easy, trip over the dice

[rough basalt]

Like content in a game being giganerfed so the average player can do it cause it's too hard for them?

[lyric viper]

I think I saw a while back an argument that if an animal was on an item/object list, then you could craft/create it with a spell.

[frail wasp]

take the character sheet, take the pen over the dexterity box, write "4"

[fast latch]

Yeah that’s the easy part, but how do you justify something that bad in a backstory?

[lament sapphire]

Roll for stats

[sly crest]

btw, is that Link? good taste

[frail wasp]

"they're clumsy"

[sly crest]

yeah, I was pretty floored

[lyric viper]

I think the same logic said you could also then craft/create a 'a night at an inn'

[lament sapphire]

They got a bum leg.

[frail wasp]

clumsy people aint rare

[jagged sentinel]

say it louder for those in the back

[paper portal]

hell yeah?

[jagged sentinel]

You can be immortal, powerful, nigh invulnerable... and still trip over that first step if you don't see it

[rocky oracle]

Hi

[paper portal]

why does your pfp got a dumpy

[frail wasp]

stubbin their poor toes in the process

[rocky oracle]

Im not explaining that ngl

[sly crest]

That reminds me! I used to trip a lot back when my shoes didn't go with my orthotics

[fickle heart]

Moreso the opposite, which was something I was discussing pertaining to Champion Fighter. Essentially, if Champion Fighter had a power ceiling that was where more skill-intensive stuff could be at, Champion would likely be easily oppressive in games where people aren't focusing on building for power. At the same time, this hypothetical Champion would be playing as intended, so a result that makes other players feel bad despite Champion being exactly where it should be and very simple would largely be a game design problem of misaligned expectations.

[rocky oracle]

I wanted to ask how can I rp in dnd

I really like combat so far and only come for combat at this point

[livid owl]

What gives you trouble with the RP element?

[rocky oracle]

I like stabbing

To much

[jagged sentinel]

I can see how that might complicate things.

[rocky oracle]

I just reallt like combat

[sly crest]

Honestly, it's fine to have preferences!

[rocky oracle]

I think it's because our dm lets us fight each other ngl

[sly crest]

...I was just going to ask about PvP.

[rocky oracle]

I fought my friend and he won 2 times

[lyric viper]

I feel it falls under what I'm gonna call 'Rawaa' (Which appropriately sounds like rawr speak, and is 'Rules as Written as Absurd'). These sort of observations that shouldn't ever be actually attempted in a sane game, but are fun to point as a silly hypothetical 'RAW'.

This time the RAWAA being that if you look on the equipment chapter, some tables are titled 'items'. https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/basic-rules/equipment (See Ammunition table, Arcane Focus, Other Adventuring Gear, tools, Mounts , Vehicles , lodging...)

And College of Creation could create items:

Also at 3rd level, as an action, you can channel the magic of the Song of Creation to create one nonmagical item of your choice in an unoccupied space within 10 feet of you.

So the argument was 'the table lists this as 'item' so thus I can create it'.
But also meant that things not listed as items (Like Trade Goods which were titled 'goods') ...wouldn't be? Very absurd.

[paper portal]

this game isnt the slightest bit balanced for pvp, id advise against it

[paper portal]

yeah this is the kinda stuff i live for, you'd be surprised what insane stuff you can do if you just read the rules

[rocky oracle]

Yeah last time we fought i lost because or range

The winner won free art too

[paper portal]

generally it just comes down to whoever wins initiative tbh

[hot reef]

Reminds me of a recent JJK character

[paper portal]

sounds like you might be bound for #optimization we too like stabbing people

[rocky oracle]

Yeah but im the fastest in my party

[hot reef]

Do you want to enjoy rp, or just avoid being bad at it?

[rocky oracle]

I have a rogue who i think is a psychic thing I dont remember the name

[rocky oracle]

Im bad at it but wanna tey it tbh

[paper portal]

soulknife?

[rocky oracle]

Yeah that one

We got to level 3 last time and I thought it was cool I didn't read what it does tho

[rough basalt]

Ah so like a character in a competitive game that absolutely ruins the game for other people at high skill level but when played at a low skill level they're basically a nuisance despite the character being a "beginner character"

[hot reef]

One way I think of it is breaking it down into personality and voice
You want a voice you find easy to roleplay as (and others don’t find annoying)
And you want a personality you find easy to roleplay as (and others don’t find annoying)
The personality and voice don’t have to be complex, it can be similar to your own with a minor tweak

[fickle heart]

Naw, the opposite. The character is too good at low skill levels, even if it's just fine at higher skill levels.