dnd-discussion

[hot marlin]

A round lasting 20 minutes is to me simply indicative of bad playing.

[marble lion]

A question here or there, a few too many adds, legendary actions inbetween

[jaunty wyvern]

Too many adds is your issue

[knotty pasture]

Honestly in those moments I would have asked the DM if my Bard can roll for persuasion to try and seduce a Mind Flayer so they could leave our brains alone for 2 mins

If Bards can seduce dragons they can seduce squidheads

[jaunty wyvern]

If anything getting stunned is decreasing the amount of time your round is lmao

[hot marlin]

Bards can't seduce dragons.

[marble lion]

Stun doubles or triples the time between your turns

That is a bad feature imo

[hot marlin]

Actually in the case of mind flayers, the stun lasts for up to a minute, meaning ten rounds

[knotty pasture]

Some dragons could polymorph into dragonborns or whatever right? Bards just have to seduce the polymorphed versions of it

[marble lion]

Yes i didnt wanna stir the grammar by including or more

[hot marlin]

I still don't see how that is a bad feature.

Yes it doubles or triples time between your rounds. But that's what is good about it

[marble lion]

And i dont see how you dont see it

[hot marlin]

Well we are at an impasse

[jaunty wyvern]

Whole party gets stunned? Have them come to in pods, seperated

[marble lion]

See thats more fun

[jaunty wyvern]

I do this with sleep and hypnotic pattern alllll the time

[marble lion]

Now its narrative. Something is happening

[hot marlin]

Come to? Nah. Mind flayer is going to be merciless. If they all get stunned, the mind flayer starts next round by tentacling someone, then extracting the brain.

[jaunty wyvern]

Yes now you are seeing the true enemy

[marble lion]

I dont mind the idea of stuns

I mind the reality of a tabletop being slow and involving downtime

Tripling that for 1 person sucks

[hot marlin]

If the whole party is stunned, the mind flayer essentially kills one person every two rounds.

[marble lion]

Oh yeah technically that can happen

Still more fun than sitting there for the rest of combat, unable to do anything while everyone else is partaking in the social activity you gathered for

[hot marlin]

And if they wake up captured? They've already been implanted with a tadpole, they'll be dead in hours.

[marble lion]

Being stunned in dnd as the only one is like going to a houseparty and being locked in the garage

[knotty pasture]

Unless they're a true soul...

[marble lion]

Alone

[fickle heart]

I feel like medium-CC is one of those things that should either fully be on the table for both sides or not on the table at all, just with how it modifies the play experience.

[knotty pasture]

Tbh I like the whole true soul interpretation at least, imagine getting stun locked into a TPK

[marble lion]

I will stun someone for maybe a round if i want the big guns

But never will i let a player possibly not have a turn for more than a round

[hot marlin]

The true soul thing is only possible due to several things specific to the plot of BG3. Normal infestation kills you in less than a day

[marble lion]

Thats boring and begging to not care

[hot marlin]

So you never kill PCs?

[fickle heart]

If the goal is to have every turn be a race against the clock, entirely removing both the PC's and monster's ability to stun/incap/etc. would probably be for the best.

[marble lion]

I would. Thats different to me. Thats death

[jaunty wyvern]

After one minute? The mind flayers are on their way to the brine pools to retrieve the tadpoles. Hurry! Before they return!

[marble lion]

Thats gameover
Necessary to make the game fun

Being stunned is not necessary to make the game fun

[knotty pasture]

Some dying is probably fine, constant TPKs would sound rough

[jaunty wyvern]

No but it is quite funny

[marble lion]

Depends on if you take the game serious

[jaunty wyvern]

Makes the party pivot instead of relying on the same strat over and over again

[hot marlin]

In any case, for the entire party to be stunned by the mind blast, it would take spectacularly bad positioning, spectacularly bad preparation, spectacularly bad luck. At this point they deserve their TPK

[marble lion]

Indeed

[jaunty wyvern]

Deserving a tpk lmao

[fickle heart]

TBF, if the game is taken seriously, we largely bypass the fact that being stunned is boring, because the fight itself is part of the experience.

[marble lion]

No

[fickle heart]

I'm maybe misunderstanding what you mean by "serious" then?

[marble lion]

Taking something serious and wanting difficult conditions that prevent you from playing are different things to me

[marble lion]

Im saying if you seriously want to play a game of dnd and care about it, you wouldnt endorse a player being locked away for considerable duration just because its funny

Reeks of low investment to me

Serious as in "youre not just there to find things funny"

[fickle heart]

To me, taking something like D&D serious is recognizing that unfortunate stuff might happen as part of the play experience, such as death, and that seriousness can often be derived from things that cause situations that aren't fun in the moment. The tension from helplessness is something that can elevate the experience, and if someone responds to that tension by checking out mentally, they probably aren't actually taking it very seriously.

I say that with the context of having pretty noticeable ADHD, which means that checking out is something I'm intimately aware of being a thing.

[marble lion]

Not serious as in "high level play that challenges players to a high degree"

[hot marlin]

Because it's funny? Nobody endorses a player being locked away for a considerable duration "just because it's funny". You do it for a variety of reasons, but certainly not because it's funny

[marble lion]

Yeah i was responding

Because someone said its funny, nova

That wasnt to you or tamms at all

[marble lion]

Stuns are too far

[unborn lotus]

There is nothing that frustrates me more than the lack of support from Wizards for the 2024 character sheet.
They literally still use 2014 sheets in D&D beyond! And they're so bad

And there's never been an A4 version, nor any alternate versions... It feels like they rushed it out for the book and then decided they still prefer the 2014 one?

Which is crap because the 2024 one has a better layout and is way prettier in design

[marble lion]

I value the sentiment but stuns are too far

[knotty pasture]

So long as stuns don't last for more than 2 turns its fine for me, but sometimes I guess PCs could just have terrible luck and be stunned for far longer

[marble lion]

2 is my max

[knotty pasture]

Slows and difficult terrain are more annoying for me

[unborn lotus]

And the printer friendly version is locked away deep within the basic rules. Like they haven't even done the bare minimum making it accessible

[fickle heart]

I would say that a death is significantly further than a stun with how much waiting time it requires, as well as "undoing" the work of a PC pretty significantly. Like, I would agree that being stunned isn't fun, but losing a turn when a turn might be the difference between success and a death is a big motivator. I also don't think death is that terrible, even when it feels bad in the moment.

[marble lion]

2 is still in the realm of "well that sucked but im finally back"

3 honestly would make me question if i wanna remain in the campaign or if i should just go watch a movie

[hot marlin]

Honestly if a player of mine was questioning whether to remain in the campaign or go watch a movie because of being stunned for three rounds, I would encourage them to go watch a movie and leave the campaign

[marble lion]

Because bless descriptions and stuff but dnd combat is definitely not something i wanna just watch for that long if i gave my evening for this

As is right

I wouldnt fit into yours. Correct analysis

[hot marlin]

At that point that's just mismatched expectations.

[fickle heart]

I would also consider a player considering wanting to watch a movie as bad form, yeah. It gives the impression that I couldn't trust the player to be out of the limelight for even a bit, which is mostly prevalent when there might be impactful RP situations.

[marble lion]

No its a genuine belief that stuns are a waste of someones time vs the genuine belief that its a valuable tool to create stakes

[hot marlin]

Yes. That's mismatched expectations.

[marble lion]

I think you can create stakes without stuns

Why does it have to be stuns

[spring glen]

Another option is have the downed player do some rolls for the monster attacks

[marble lion]

You can do literally anything in dnd

[hot marlin]

It doesn't have to be. But we don't have to be playing D&D anyways. We choose to play D&D. We choose to use stuns.

[marble lion]

And you think its good to make people stop playing?

[marble lion]

That is a very wild comparison

[woven flint]

I'm playing a level 20 Dwarf Barbarian in a oneshot, his HP sickens me

[fickle heart]

The thing is, I don't think that it's reasonable to not simultaneously apply this phrase to death.

No its a genuine belief that [deaths] are a waste of someones time vs the genuine belief that its a valuable tool to create stakes

I think you can create stakes without [death]

Why does it have to be [death]

[lavish flame]

Admittedly, I feel terrible as both a DM and as a Player when I stun someone and when I am stunned

[marble lion]

Because death is a key part of almost any story, especially with combat

[fickle heart]

But why?

[marble lion]

Stuns are not. You are not going to tell me that you find stuns integral to stories

[marble lion]

Because it signifies the end

[unborn lotus]

Nah if you can't handle D&D's chunky combat then you'd be better off finding a sleeker system than homebrewing the crap out of D&D.
Even if you remove stuns and somehow make downed players still be able to take actions, there's so many status effects that limit a players movement or turn, it's the very DNA of D&D.

You just gotta face the facts that miss a turn is going to be a part of the game, and players need to plan around that

[marble lion]

The end to a process is massive

[marble lion]

I love combat
You got that wrong

I dont have to approve of skipping turns

[fickle heart]

Why does this actually matter, though? It's the same question as stuns.

If we view death solely through the lens of time wasting, it's a net negative.

[lavish flame]

Downed PCs being able to make decisions is interesting to me. It would certainly add more Heroism to one of the death states

[hot marlin]

Integral to stories no. Integral to mind flayer combats and to other monsters, yes.

[marble lion]

If you dont take my end answer, then i dont have another

[hot marlin]

Integral to monks too.

Integral to a few spells.

[marble lion]

Which i would avoid using on players because its their only way to play the game

[lavish flame]

It isn't very heroic to slowly bleed out over the course of 20-or-so seconds, so making someone still able to act while unconscious does seem reasonable to me.

[unborn lotus]

How are you not bothered by
Restrained
Incapacitated
Prone
Unconscious
Petrified
Paralysed

[fickle heart]

What I'm referring to is that you are applying entirely different lenses to these comparisons. One is about feeling your time is wasted and the other is about making things meaningful, despite both technically being a huge time waste, and one likely being a larger time waste as you have to wait until there's a good time to introduce a new PC (and the person might have to make a new PC, pushing their ability to actively play the game into the next session.)

[hot marlin]

Admittedly, this hatred of stuns probably also extends to unconscious, petrified and paralyzed

[unborn lotus]

Like D&D is jam packed with varying degrees of miss your turn / abilities. It's almost the very core of its combat. Removing stun still leaves you with a nearly identical system

[marble lion]

I would probably have to reflect on this for longer than i care to to find the specific rational answer to your question tamms. I just find there to be a massive diff between death and stuns

[fossil hollow]

says the monk main

[lavish flame]

Petrified is weird cuz its so much worse than like any other condition. Its basically another way to die, unlike being Restrained or Grappled

[marble lion]

Oh so removing stun leaves me with nearly identical gameplay but you think i should quit because i dont like stuns?

Weird contradiction there

I play dnd for years now and have a great time, i just dont recall the last time i used a stun

[hot marlin]

I think you are getting defensive right now.

[marble lion]

Yes

[fickle heart]

I think it's less about stuns and more about the plethora of other statuses that also cause someone to effectively lose a turn.

[hot marlin]

Perhaps it would be best to disengage from a conversation that is apparently going nowhere and at risk of escalating. That is what I will be doing at least

[marble lion]

Goodbye

[unborn lotus]

I don't think it's contradictory, if you've been having plenty of fun with the system minus stun then you should consider going back to using stun, you basically won't change anything you'll just gave another good tool in your toolbelt and also some of your monsters might have more teeth

[fickle heart]

There's some great discussions to be had on "null turns", but stuns are honestly one of the rarest things that cause those.

[marble lion]

Are there others though?
I guess paralysed is another

[fossil hollow]

anyway, apparently two of my players are gonna be playing the Dwarven Revenue Service on friday

[unborn lotus]

Like have you been replacing stun with something? The game clearly already has countless miss a turn mechanics without stun so if you're having fun you probably just made a mistake removing stun

[lavish flame]

I do see the vision tbh. It sucks to have ur turn skipped in any game. It might be neat if those conditions altered Initiative order, but idk how that would work

[marble lion]

No thanks i dont want a player to sit there just watching several rounds
I can make up other ways to increase challenge without that

[fossil hollow]

there is other cc aside from turn skips yeah

[unborn lotus]

Ok did you remove all the other status effects that ruin player turns?

[marble lion]

Like what?

[unborn lotus]

If not you're the contradictory one

[unborn lotus]

Up there

[marble lion]

Ah alright lets see

[unborn lotus]

And that's not even a comprehensive list

[fossil hollow]

also, why the hell is prone on that list

[lavish flame]

Why would there be an issue with Prone? Thats the most fixable condition ever

[unborn lotus]

Knocked prone can't move on your turn

[fossil hollow]

no

[fickle heart]

Incapacitated, Paralyzed, Petrified, and Unconscious are hard turn losses, but it's very easy for conditions like Blinded, Charmed, Frightened, Poisoned, Prone, and Restrained to effectively result in a PC having a wasted turn because those conditions caused failure of every action they attempted.

[lavish flame]

You can fix it twice on your turn

[unborn lotus]

I'm saying they all have varying degrees of miss a turn

[fossil hollow]

its just untrue that you cant mov with prone

[unborn lotus]

Prone probably the least

[fossil hollow]

it literally comes with its own solution

[unborn lotus]

You lose part of your movement

[lavish flame]

Prone definitely doesn't count we can't do that

[fossil hollow]

ok and?

[lavish flame]

No part of that is Lose A Turn tho

[unborn lotus]

A barbarian against a teleporter is ruined if they fall prone, it's as bad as stunned

[marble lion]

Unconcious as in downed? Fine as extension of death. A necessary defeat state to me
Petrified same
Paralysed falls under my stun hate unless it lasts only until a specific combo happens or something
Prone is fine. It just makes the turn harder, you still play
Restrained same

[fossil hollow]

comparing it to incapacitate is just. unfair and bad faith

[marble lion]

Read

[unborn lotus]

There are effects that do unconscious without downing, like sleep

[lavish flame]

like is Grappled also a Lose A Turn because it impacts your movement? what are we talking about

[marble lion]

Then yes except a party member can wake you up and so do attacks

[fossil hollow]

im seeing a lot of goalposts moved with some conditions

[fickle heart]

The point is null turns, not necessarily true turn loss, methinks.

[marble lion]

Im fine with all conditions if they dont skip peoples turns more than once

So even stun is fine if it ends early

[lavish flame]

yeah being Paralyzed for a Minute sucks cuz thats just an entire combat

same thing with being Banished and stuff

[marble lion]

I like paralysed but only if its a momentary thing that gives autocrit as a special feature or something

I literally just dont want players afk unless defeated (especially more than a turn)

Thats all. Its simple i think

[fossil hollow]

keeping it to a round is pretty good i feel

[fickle heart]

Put another way, I think it's worth considering the fact that a Stun for even 2 turns has the exact same gamestate result as being Frightened into a corner and missing every attack for 2 turns.

[lavish flame]

Yeah its neat if you become un-paralyzed when you get hit (so enemies set up combos and feel very tactical) but longer than that does really suck

[marble lion]

Yeah round is fineish

[unborn lotus]

Definitely lose part of your turn

[marble lion]

Not at all

[unborn lotus]

Stuns can be ended by party members

[marble lion]

How

Huh? I had no idea

[lavish flame]

In some instances being damaged or using a special action. I think Hypnotic Pattern does this

[marble lion]

Why could a party member stop you from being stunned

[unborn lotus]

Power Word Heal

[marble lion]

Oh so specific stuns only. Those are fine too then

[fossil hollow]

i think greater restoration ends it early?

[old sluice]

Question: Does "wasting a turn" mean that you are not playing or that you are not succeeding while playing?

[marble lion]

Valid mention but a bit too steep for my taste i think

[lavish flame]

one of the Restorations should, but using a Restoration in combat feels so icky idk

[unborn lotus]

Yeah lol 9th level

I can't think if there's a lower level stun ender

[marble lion]

9th level spell is also very high level so that only matters in big games

[unborn lotus]

Arguably so does stun

[marble lion]

Honestly i think from now on i could only repeat what i already said

[fickle heart]

The idea I mentioned of "wasting a turn" is the concept of "null turns" (or whatever other term is used) in game design, where a player went through a set of actions but no meaningful gamestate change occured, thus their turn having accomplished nothing.

Effectively, the game treats it as if they never had a turn at all, very similarly to as if they were Stunned.

[marble lion]

This is probably the clearest ive made it

[unborn lotus]

In 2024 you can still use movement while stunned

[marble lion]

Thats something

Genuinely better but still a bit.... unfun

[lavish flame]

In that definition, using an Action to attack but missing on every attack is the same as being Stunned and thereby unable to make an attempt. I don't feel like these feel the same to a player though.

[marble lion]

Yeah not at all the same

[fickle heart]

They don't necessarily feel the same, no, but they very well can.

[marble lion]

One is you engaging in the game but failing

The other is seeing if youre allowed to engage with the game again in 1 round

[marble lion]

True sometimes even an actively failed turn feels bad

[lavish flame]

Now, truth be told, if D&D 6e dropped the Roll To Hit, I'd be down to clown and try it out. I like the idea of a constantly changing battle over people failing the luck game and not enjoying their time.

[fickle heart]

It depends on whether the Stun is something that has a set duration or has a saving throw. Failing a saving throw to end an effect is largely similar to failing every attack roll, though one or the other may feel more disappointing.

[marble lion]

But that should be rare and honestly just cannot be prevented

Im not gonna make you autohit just to change gamestate ;)

[old sluice]

So the same as if you turn had just amounted to rolling a longbow attack and missing.

[marble lion]

As someone who primarily plays martials, ive been there

"Welp that was my turn i guess" after 10 seconds of rolling misses

[fickle heart]

In certain situations, I think that being Stunned is actually a better feel than missing every attack, because you statistically should hit some attacks, whereas you statistically might not be likely to get out of the stun.

[marble lion]

Its also why i can confidently say im a good sport who enjoys watching others play as long as ppl describe their turns a bit

[lavish flame]

A combat heavy game night where you just have terrible luck is so diabolical.

[marble lion]

Which makes me even more confident stun really sucks

[fickle heart]

I think the dislike of Stun is more of a perception-based issue.

[marble lion]

Because if someone as patient as me thinks stuns are bad

[unborn lotus]

There's heaps of systems that guarantee you do something interesting on your turn tbf

D&D just isn't that, pretty explicitly

[marble lion]

I cant imagine what its like for my players who are much less patient usually

[lavish flame]

Ye this is an idea inspired by the recent Draw Steel!.

[marble lion]

Yeah it isnt really about having to wait afk to me

Its about my thought during that

[fickle heart]

Like, there's nothing inherently wrong with Stuns, and the issue is seemingly moreso that there's a perception that a player will check out when Stunned, but that's something I think a lot of people would consider "bad behavior", so I don't think it's necessarily a good idea to offload the responsibility for that behavior onto the condition.

[marble lion]

I dont sit there thinking dammit everything went wrong like in turns of missed attacks
I sit there thinking "why does the dm think its fun to have me afking?"

[burnt valley]

How it feels to deny the DM the satisfaction by spreading out:

[fickle heart]

I would personally consider this as a perception that should be fixed in a player, tbh.

[marble lion]

I feel like its a bit rude to players to shame them for checking out when you send them afk

Like yes i do expect players to pay attention, even if theyre inactive for a bit

[lavish flame]

"What is fun about this" is a reasonable thing to ask about stuns tbh, its hard to find much

[marble lion]

But i also wont specifically attempt to push them into timeout

[fickle heart]

I think that assuming you are sending them AFK when you stun them is itself a flawed premise, though.

[marble lion]

Why. Thats what stuns are

Like genuinely. You cant do anything in 2014 but roll to be back in the game

[empty thicket]

Man, there is so much magic items i would love to have in my daily life
Chest of preservation, Cleansing Stone, immovable rod

[fickle heart]

This is what MANY things are, which include normal and core parts of the game, like most commonly RP.

[glass granite]

I don’t like stunning players cuz like, combat can already feel like a slog sometimes, and then I remove the ability for them to play and skip their turn. I don’t imagine that’s very fun

[lavish flame]

thats only if the specific stun lets you repeat a save too

[marble lion]

I will ask my players to pay attention and in turn i wont put them in timeout

Thats just presumptious to me

[fickle heart]

RP can effectively be a "stun", where you ask players to sit out of the game for a bit while another player does their thing and gets the talking stick.

[jagged vigil]

Question for all:

I typically keep strict track of time in games. Dates and the passage of time is significant. Watching my partner and their boyfriend play Kingdom Come Deliverance, it got me thinking about its more "narrative" time passage, where time plays a role in current events but is more of a narrative occurrence.

In a different fashion, Tolkien translates Middle-Earth dates and seasons into our language. That way, discussion of "Fall" or "October" makes sense to us as readers and we can track time without needing to learn a fantastical system.

Do you guys have a preference or thought on which is useful? Strict passage of time in accordance with the setting, narrative passage of time as is necessary and applicable, or translated passage of time that's easy to parse?

[marble lion]

Yeah but rp is a lot more engaging when watching than attack rolls and damage numbers

[burnt valley]

Stuns are fun for the player side

[marble lion]

You mean used against dm?

[fickle heart]

Is it? I wouldn't say it always is.

[burnt valley]

Yes

[glass granite]

I would

[marble lion]

Agreed 100%
The reason is that the dm wont be afk while 1 creature is stunned

[marble lion]

Absolutely

[fickle heart]

Huh, then I guess you must have boring combats, if that's the case.

[marble lion]

The only rp more boring is shopping ha

[burnt valley]

Moments where the entire enemy gets default killed is such a hype moment for us players

[marble lion]

No i just think almost any interaction is more fun that being stunned in combat

[limber trail]

I think the best executions of stuns and similar are where there's multiple ways out of it. I hit my players with a hold person and it led to my party focusing down the boss to break concentration. There was some meaningful counterplay about it. It's also just best served rarely, but meaningfully.

[marble lion]

Solid take for me

[lavish flame]

Truth be told, I am one of those stinkers that keeps track of time passing in a campaign using the Setting's calendar. Currently it is Fessuran 4, 835 P.D. in my Wildemount game. When explaining to my players, I usually go by earth-seasons. "Its mid-Winter", "Autumn just began," things like that.

I do not expect them to memorize a fantasy calendar tbh. I just do it for me. I also keep strict track of time at the day/month level, but hours can fluctuate depending on what ppl want to do.

[fickle heart]

Just make sure you don't kill your players in combat, then, as they might have to sit through ten times as much time while waiting to play again, no?

[marble lion]

Nope i made clear before thats different

[limber trail]

I don't think stuns, like any other feature, are blanketly bad. I think what matters is things like how the DC works, how you break out of it, how it can be triggered, etc.

[empty thicket]

Season and all that are okey for me in a campaign, the thing i have is, i am in a Shuttle right now and if isnt htat im moving around the world with portals that our boss use to send us to missions, we can be in some mountains at the top of the world, some beach or in literally hell.
So i understand that my DM dont bother with explaining that

[marble lion]

Though it is a thing i think about when considering player death

[fickle heart]

I don't think you functionally described a difference, tbh. If anything, death is worse, because now the person is likely miserable AND has to wait for a long time.

[marble lion]

Death is drama

[fickle heart]

The part I specifically disagree with is that your stated goals in one aspect contradict with your stated goals in another aspect.

[marble lion]

Stun is afk

Stun could lead to death but tbh so can literally anything

[fickle heart]

Those are both assumptions that I'm guessing you've learned, but I wouldn't be so sure about them outside of your subjective experience.

I also feel bad for you if your players treat you like that when you stun them, they don't sound very respectful.

[marble lion]

Fair enough

[marble lion]

Disagreed

[fickle heart]

That kind of play would probably get someone booted from the types of games I engage in.

[marble lion]

They are nice but will show signs of wear while trying to hide it

I think that means theyre nice and being afk sucks

[empty thicket]

Stuns are... denying an specific character action to add drama too. The cleric stunned dont being able to heal his party that is in a bad spot.
The tension of such thing is big.
But yeah, denying a whole turn for a player is not good
Still would add, if at the start of its turn the player roll and sucess in the roll and free himself. Would let him do any Bonus action.

[limber trail]

I do think a stun can be pretty fun & engaging when done right. It's a big enough effect that it can prompt some legitimate tactical consideration. Protecting that stunned person, finding ways to avoid getting stunned yourself, etc.

[fickle heart]

If someone truly goes afk consistently when they get stunned/(and other conditions like it), I would consider them to have broken the social contract and would ask them to refrain from that behavior or potentially leave the game.

[marble lion]

I dont mean actually leaving to be clear

[empty thicket]

So, if you succeed you can at least be able to either cast something or do some action.
Can even put it like you can too cast a cantrip if you succeed.

[marble lion]

I meant you cant interact with the game due to all actions being gone

If someone actually went afk for more than bathroom, id be quite mad at them lol

[empty thicket]

Unless a player have something to free you from the stun, but then that make a whole scheme of X force X

[fickle heart]

I see this as the same as outside your turn on certain classes assuming your reaction is gone. You can't interact with the game, therefore can we say it's reasonable that players don't need to pay attention?

[hot gate]

I like the stun effect of the Harvester Devil from Astarion's Book, precisely because it specifies

it has the Stunned condition, except the target can speak. If the target agrees to the devil’s contract, the effect ends
That led to some fun rp and made the stun feel a lot less bad.

[marble lion]

Its a spectrum

[fickle heart]

I'm just really big on consistent and firm lines, and I don't see this dichotomy about stuns being anything but fuzzy and hard to define.

[marble lion]

Waiting 1 round is normal
Waiting 2 rounds is rough
Waitings 3 rounds becomes something i dont think is needed

[marble lion]

Life isnt black and white and this isnt law school

[old sluice]

Yeah of course it's not needed.

[marble lion]

I wont draw a crystalclear line sorry

[fickle heart]

It's not about it being black and white, but the ability to define stuff, to me.

[old sluice]

But if it was about needs, we wouldn't be playing D&D in the first place.

[empty thicket]

unless you are literally ragebaiting that player like a bit, "okey its my turn now" NUH UH ejejejejeje, but only if they find it funny tho

[hot marlin]

Eh, you stole my thing!

[marble lion]

If i want to play dnd, playing dnd is needed
If i want to create challenge in dnd, stun is not needed

I dont agree with that point at all

[limber trail]

Stun isn't needed for a challenge, but it's a type of challenge that you can choose to use

[marble lion]

Its one of many tools, though arguably an effective one

[marble lion]

Fully agreed

[fickle heart]

Like, if this is entirely vibes-based, let me know, but I'm under the impression that you are attempting to provide a pretty consistent reasoning exclusive to stuns on why they are bad, which is the part I'm not understanding because you aren't seemingly using that same reasoning to draw a line at other things that would reasonable be lumped into the same category. It just seems very inconsistent and hard to respond to.

[limber trail]

I think anyone who solely uses stun is doing it wrong, I think anyone who chooses never to use stun should consider using them some times. I like stun because it's a super big & poignent moment of narrative fear.

[marble lion]

Its hard to respond to because its hard to outline perfectly then

[empty thicket]

Stun can be used to force//help certain characters to get a spotlight too.
I get stunned and then the paladin jump in front of me blocking a barrage of arrows taht were against me, full aura moment
My goblin artificer get stun and i pick her up and run away with her from that dangerous spot is another moment too
IT depends

[old sluice]

See, the problem here is that you're implicitely linking "not needed" to "therefore should be removed". Goblins are not needed. Humans are not needed. You could play a campaign where the only things are orcs. Everyone plays orcs fighting other orcs, nothing else. Stun is not something you have to use. It is a tool in your toolbelt. But it feels like you are saying "I can choose not to use this tool, therefore it is a bad tool that shouldn't be used at all". Which would obviously be a crazy thing to say

[marble lion]

Not at all

That is a gross misunderstanding

[old sluice]

Well I misunderstood then.

[fickle heart]

So it's vibes-based, gotcha. There's no shame in that; I just assumed, based on earlier comments, that you were approaching it from the perspective of deconstructing the potential need for stuns in a game like D&D, as opposed to conveying your own specific thoughts on stuns in your games.

[marble lion]

Stuns to me not being needed is only relevant because i find them to cause a negative experience not balanced out by enough relevancy to justify its use often

[empty thicket]

but there is another thing im just thinking, Stun, Charm, frightened.
3 of them are like the same stuff but in movement.

Charm going to that enemy
Stun being static in the place
Frightened making you get away from the enemy.

[marble lion]

If i didnt think stuns were wasting peoples time, i wouldnt care to think if they were needed

[limber trail]

Charm doesn't force you to go to an enemy and frighten doesn't make you run from an enemy

frighten just means you can't get closer

[marble lion]

And if i thought stuns were needed, i would accept the bad feels of being afk for 4 turns

[fickle heart]

E.g. I mistakenly thought you were thinking about this from a game design perspective.

[marble lion]

Uhhhhhhhh

[old sluice]

But why say they're not needed? We all know they're not needed. It's obvious they're not needed. Why state the obvious? Your point is that they are a negative experience, which is bad.

[marble lion]

Death is also negative

[empty thicket]

im killing my dm then, he did me a Mandela effect.
Im using my action surge on him

[marble lion]

But it has a thing its needed for imo and its far outweighing the bad

Stuns imo are not needed and thats why i highlight that

[empty thicket]

tho, i think you need some negative to get some positive

[glass granite]

Well, death is a core revolving feature of a lot of games, dnd being one of them

[marble lion]

If you can make a fun game without forcing someone who showed up to this weekly or we activity to not engage in play for a considerable time, why choose to do it?

That is the only reason i think this

[glass granite]

Stuns are a more minor mechanic

[marble lion]

And i have conceded that sometimes situationally, stuns are fine!

Because its not absolute. Few things are

[fickle heart]

I guess I'm still a bit lost on how we define "not engage in play" and if that's something being applied exhaustively or even more expansively.

Someone whose character has died is definitionally not engaging in play.

[glass granite]

Well, if you’re stunned you can’t exactly do much.

[marble lion]

Yeah but death provides a unique enough positive to warrant the negative

[fickle heart]

So it's not actually about the engaging in play?

[old sluice]

Wait I think I get it. Your point is:
Premise: Stun are a negative experience
Premise 2: Death is a more negative experience
Premise 3: Death is needed for narrative reasons, which outweighs the negativity of the experience
Premise 4: Stuns are not needed for narrative reasons
Inference: Stuns, contrary to death, have nothing that outweighs the negativity of the experience
Conclusion: Stuns therefore are bad design

Am I correct?

[marble lion]

Its a game and death is losing

[glass granite]

And death is a major mechanic that is needed to add stakes.

[marble lion]

It is. Not being able to is bad. Death just outbalances it

[empty thicket]

true, but for reach this point lots of things must had happened.

[marble lion]

YES

Which again sometimes isnt true

[glass granite]

Sums my understanding of the argument up quite well, yes

[old sluice]

OK yeah I disagree, but now I know what I disagree with

[marble lion]

Way too complex to make absolutes

[fickle heart]

The thing is, death isn't needed for narrative reasons. It's basically the same as stuns.

You can have a compelling narrative with zero death (of the protagonists, even.)

[marble lion]

I will refer to the phrasing up there

[empty thicket]

Death is a consequence of stuff happening, call it a bad take on decisions, not being ready enough or to prove the player that if he dont take reconsideration his ways in something, that is the consequence for it.

[marble lion]

Forget the word needed. Instead think it gives positives and negatives

[empty thicket]

If a player try to punch a king and expect him to dont send him to be beheaded, then its lack of common sense.

[old sluice]

Stun is also the consequence of stuff happening. You got into a fight with a monk, consequence: Stunning Strike

[glass granite]

If a player gets into a fight with a monk and doesnt expect to get stunned, that’s on them

[empty thicket]

yep or just you got PW stun and you used your inspiration in something not good like a normal attack.

There is resources that must be used in ways, they dont promise you a save but higher your chances of it.

[marble lion]

I feel like you could come up with cooler stuff from an npc monk than taking you out of the game but isnt stunning strike only 1 turn

[empty thicket]

The player waste them, welp, consequences.

[hot marlin]

Everything is a consequence of stuff happening essentially. As long as your DM is not crazy Steve, pulling stuff out of nowhere.

[glass granite]

Personally, my stance on stuns is this:
is cool. Not too fun if it’s overused on players, or if there are a lot of players. But can be cool, very punishing effect.

[empty thicket]

mine kinda does, he literally half HP all of us in the bossfight of yesterday and even then my character managed to pull through it

[marble lion]

Time to sleep goodnight

[fickle heart]

I think the biggest issue I have in this discussion is the inability to set a concrete line on what is "acceptable not being able to engage" and what is "unacceptable not being able to engage."

I personally can easily draw a parallel between a PC being stunned and a PC not being focused on within the roleplay or narrative. Either way, the PC is watching events unfold, but I think it's more likely that people would say watching combat is engaging compared to just listening to roleplay, as the common usage of VTTs gives you something to look at.

[glass granite]

Goood night!

[empty thicket]

It was the paladin arc moment and i had to pull out 2 nat20 in the death saves, i F$%Q!& stole the spotlight from him

[hot marlin]

My issue is the missing part of the argument that Slimmy outlined.

[old sluice]

The missing part?

[hot marlin]

Between "stuns are a negative experience not outweighed" and "stuns are a bad design", the argument fails to prove that something being a negative experience not outweighed is bad design. It could be good design. Or neutral design.

Is the fact that something is not fun actually bad? Not necessarily.

[empty thicket]

We said about it, IT depends of the situation.
Anything used wrong is bad design, the thing is fitting everything in the epic puzzle of a fight

One thing i would like to talk is Opportunity attacks tho, they are problematic because in RAW, it make you do the most static and not agile fights

My dm dont put them unless you have X feats or do X actions

[hot marlin]

I'm reminded of the main argument Hbomberguy made when he talked about the game Pathologic. Basically he said that Pathologic was not fun. Pathologic is made to be a pain, to be an annoyance, to get on your nerves. And he explained that when Pathologic does it, it's a good thing.

Do games have to be fun to be good? Well, Pathologic illustrate that the answer is no.

[fickle heart]

A negative circumstance on a player that has them engaging less with the game is not inherently bad design, as that can force other players to pick up the slack or shine. I think approaching the game with the mentality that you only care about your own PCs actions is itself something that will have you enjoying it less than you otherwise might.

[hot marlin]

So, being stunned for multiple rounds? Not fun. But can be good design

[empty thicket]

Welp, sometimes you must not win all the battles, its something that a player must learn.

[hot marlin]

Personally, if I'm stunned for a minute, I take the opportunity to get to the window and have a cigarette and stretch my legs.

I'm still listening, but that gives me some time to think, recenter myself, indulge in that one vice

[empty thicket]

Retreat is an option sometimes, find other ways to overcome an encounter too, talk is an option most of the time, etc. etc.
Now if you are against a creature that MUST BE a problem and you feel bad because is a problem

"Spicy food is spicy" kind of thing, welp....

[empty thicket]

Going against an unit that Stun with projectiles and your party using you like a shield because you got stun first. You wont be moving in all the fight but god that would be so funny

[hot marlin]

This is incidentally why I have a lot of problem with people using "fun" as a metric when discussing D&D.

[empty thicket]

Yep, said it before with the stun for 3 rounds thing
If its some sort of friendly ragebait that you do to the players, i find it okey
Nooooow, if you are doing it for pure spite. Its not nice.

[fickle heart]

I gotchu. Lemme find something on this.

[hot marlin]

I'm reminded of a conversation I had in this server where someone said that a group of goblins was outside the room the PCs locked themselves in, and asked for advice. My opinion was that the goblins should besiege them. If the PCs tried to get out, the goblins should be ready to pincushion them with arrows, staying at a distance so the PCs can't reach them in a single turn.

[empty thicket]

But again, that go with the "if used properly"
A nemesis that stun his rival and KO the party to finally fight him alone, might be Peak scene

[hot marlin]

I recall someone saying "that's not fun". And yes. That is not fun. Which is good. Being besieged is not fun. Being locked in a room with only one exit where the enemies are waiting for you is not fun. The fact that this is not fun is what makes it good.

[empty thicket]

Yep, because you need contrasts at the end of the day

[hot marlin]

In that case, the person that disagreed had a problem with the fact that the PCs would need more than one turn to reach the goblins in melee, therefore resulting in the turn being wasted. Which, again, is a good thing. That's the point of using ranged attack.

[fickle heart]

This was in response to "people mischaracterize fun", related to the first message, and was stated by the same person as sent the first message.

[hot marlin]

This was very well put.

[fickle heart]

Like, I do partially agree that people mischaracterize fun sometimes, but I think a real world example sets that straight.

Some people think sitting in a boat solely to try to catch fish is fun. I think it's often really boring. At the same time, those people find it definitively fun and engage in it for the same purpose one might engage in reading a book, or going on a hike. Hence, it is fun.

[glass granite]

I find fishing a good mix between relaxing and engaging

[median anvil]

Its definitely engaging once you got something on the hook. People mischaracterize every single subjective topic however. Fun is obviously subjective, such is someone's discomforts and whatnot. The more people you have the more likely it is that someone wont have fun with a certain activity.

[empty thicket]

I think there must be not so funny moments for fun moments.
There must be a balance on them so each moment is better.

[median anvil]

Yea agree

[empty thicket]

My concept of fun is Big numbers of damage, another concept of fun for myfriend might be roleplay

i will miss sometimes
They wont have access to roleplay other times

[humble cairn]

Are we conflating "roleplay" with "social interaction" here?

[empty thicket]

Kinda, it was now just a made up example

[glass granite]

The only time you can’t roleplay is if your character cannot act in any way shape or form

[humble cairn]

Cuz y'know, every pillar of D&D is roleplay.

[empty thicket]

yeah that

[jolly crypt]

My character has some asymmetry going on - one "corrupted" claw hand (where magic will be cast from) and one "normal" hand. I want to lean in to the asymmetry with her redesign, where she'll also be using a scythe hand. Do you think normal or claw hand should get more armor?

[glass granite]

Usually, by being dead.
Now others can use you as a catalyst for roleplay, you just likely can’t do nothing

[median anvil]

I feel extremely awkward roleplaying so I keep it pretty minimal, still works

[empty thicket]

Or KO

[opal wharf]

No AC applies to the whole body

[glass granite]

No mechanical change, but I like the scythe hand here

[humble cairn]

Even roleplaying your actions? Like describing how you do combat?

[jolly crypt]

Yeah, this is purely for character art design.

[empty thicket]

making the Charisma stat being the dump stat so you dont have to talk too much because you dont like it might be peak idea

[median anvil]

Describing isn't role-playing is it? I've always seen role playing as acting

[jolly crypt]

Leaving the corruption more evident? I can see it, I can see it...

[spark sonnet]

Hey guys !

[glass granite]

Contrast between the plague of magic and the defence of the mundane

[humble cairn]

Describing is also roleplaying, yes. It doesn't have to be acting things out like a LARPer.

[glass granite]

Hallo! Goood morning afternoon evening!

[humble cairn]

You don't have to voice act for it to be roleplay. Just making decisions in-character is roleplaying.

[median anvil]

I see, yea i have absolutely no issues with that. Just the "acting" part is sometimes not comfortable for me so I try to avoid it

[spark sonnet]

Hello good morning I am new to d&d

[glass granite]

Wanna learn more?

[spark sonnet]

Yeah

[humble cairn]

Using third person language to describe what your character does is also roleplaying.

[jolly crypt]

I posted the initial reference sheet in #dnd-arts-and-crafts

[glass granite]

Read up on the first few chapters of the free basic rules on #learn-to-play , and feel free to ask any questions you might have.

[humble cairn]

Aside, but your new nickname is very satisfying to say.

[median anvil]

Thats good to know, maybe I've just watched too many content creators play so I thought people usually actually act

[glass granite]

Tytyty

[spark sonnet]

Well see Ik some of the basic rules of the game cuz I watched like a 10 videos on it so I have some idea

[humble cairn]

Those are people who are producing a D&D show, which is different.

[glass granite]

Well, for the sake of staying on topic I recommend you ask your questions in #dnd-newcomers

[spark sonnet]

Thanks I’ll go there then

[hidden spindle]

While stunned, paralyzed, incapacitated, or unconscious: passive checks still be running~

Dead though, you take your character sheet, & resubmit it.

[sterile verge]

Gm people :))

[glass granite]

Good evening

[humble cairn]

Afternoon!

[pliant sapphire]

Morning!

[remote wadi]

Not to mention Initiative

[reef tundra]

Some people dump strength, say it’s useless, then say more weapons should be finesse

Madness perpetuating madness /j

[brittle beacon]

and also use acrobatics instead of athletics

[silk hare]

Imo they should just switch some stuff over to make strength more viable

especially since martials are already weaker

bc as everyone said, atm strength is just plain useless unless you specifically want the "bonk puny enemy with big weapon" fantasy

but even then you can do other stuff / use sth different for that

[worn lagoon]

shadowblade is finesse, we're good

[silk hare]

e.g. just take 1 lvl in hexblade warlock to use your char modifier, makes that available for palli, sorc and everything else that happens to have decent CHA

or you could just take Mi-Druid for shillelagh and use a club

[pliant sapphire]

Big weapons are okay with Great Weapon Master feat

[worn lagoon]

i don't blame anyone for dumping str, because rn as a lv1 sorcerer I have 19 AC while naked. dex is one of the stats ever.

[silk hare]

yes, but ONLY OKAY, and you have to "waste" a feat that could do more elsewhere

[silk hare]

including shield and mage armor?

[worn lagoon]

neither

[silk hare]

tortle?

[reef tundra]

Great weapon master is gre-… good

[silk hare]

go-... okay

[worn lagoon]

draconic adds charisma to base ac, so 10 + 4 from dex + 5 from charisma

[reef tundra]

Doing 1d12+8 damage every turn at level 4 is pretty good

[silk hare]

draconic is what again? is that a 2024 thing?

[worn lagoon]

even in 2014 rules i'd still have 17 ac, more than starting heavy armor

[silk hare]

Eldritch blast does almost the same with not much investment + u have spells

[silk hare]

10+ 4 from dex + what exactly there?

[reef tundra]

No

[worn lagoon]

13 base from draconic, again

[reef tundra]

That is a whole difference of almost 10, including the bigger damage dice and bonus

[pliant sapphire]

How do you have 5 CHA and 4 DEX as lvl 1?

[silk hare]

ohhhh draconic sorc

[worn lagoon]

rolled stats

[silk hare]

I was trying to find the feat lmao

[worn lagoon]

with point buy i'd still sit at 16 ac though

[reef tundra]

Then at level 5 it’s double the attacks, then at level 9 it’s 1d10 extra damage with every hit, then 2d10 at level 14

[silk hare]

yeh plus possibly shield + mage armor, thats not too shabby

[worn lagoon]

and that's the same as chain mail with none of the strength requirements or drawbacks

[silk hare]

yes, but at that point spell casters start outclassing with spells

[reef tundra]

At level 14 with max strength and GWM, that’s 1d12 + 2d10 + 10 damage

[pliant sapphire]

That was a very good stat roll haha

[worn lagoon]

yeah, but even without it you can still start at chain mail ac with none of the drawbacks

[reef tundra]

But they can’t do that every single turn

Classes achieve different things, people, they have different roles in and out of battle

[silk hare]

depends, maybe not flat D10,

but e.g. at lvl 5 clerics can do up to 6D8 +1D12 per turn

and thats without taking into account lvld spells other than spirit guardians (2014 I might add, bc they fixed it 2024)

[remote wadi]

See, I do agree with that statement. But it's easy to have that statement trap people into believing that all classes are equal because all roles are equal in value and occurrence

[reef tundra]

Also of course a spell is stronger, that’s the point, an example is Gandalf was stronger than the rest of the fellowship but they were all still integral

But also they can’t keep it up forever

[silk hare]

I mean they probably keep it up most of the duration of the fight

[reef tundra]

You know what, this topic always turns me into a broken record player

[silk hare]

if you deal hundreds of DPR even if NOVA and the fight ends, you dealt more than the fighter + at higher lvls enemys get stronger and the probability that the melee gets unconc is infinitely higher

[silk hare]

same tho, I get it, Im just advocating for the opposite side xD

[reef tundra]

I’ve played dnd RAI for years, never faced a single issue regarding class balance

[silk hare]

its more an issue of optimized tables or not

[reef tundra]

Well in that case, I am willing to agree to disagree

[silk hare]

fair :)))

[remote wadi]

Gtg back to work

[reef tundra]

We have different views, that’s fine

[silk hare]

tbh I just like discussing for the sake of discussing and different POVs

yehh absolutely, and thats fine :))

[reef tundra]

Ah that’s alright, if everyone agreed on everything life would be pretty boring

[silk hare]

fr

[tired stone]

Oh I just had a good idea, this PC has no real bad things happen in their backstory

A fireball centered on their parents might do the trick

[remote wadi]

Ehh, you'd be surprised how many would kill for an echo chamber where everyone is like them

Thank goodness I am not one of them

[silk hare]

its also a bit of an "issue" of what aspect you are thinking about, Im just a min maxer at heart so I mostly argue from an "optimal" (aka "usefulness"/ DpR or whatever you wanna call it) point of view

[reef tundra]

Insanity has always existed /j

[silk hare]

why not pick a more fun spell, such as meteor swarm

[reef tundra]

I’ve seen some very busted martials builds too though

(I suppose I don’t mind casual debating)

[tired stone]

I like how you think, destroy the whole village in front of them

After all, revivify can't work when there's nothing to revive

[silk hare]

oh yeh absolutely, the problem is that most "highly opt" martial builds at best compete with the lower end of opt spell casters and or do mostly NOVA damage (shc as gloomstalker builds)

[reef tundra]

I’ve had many moments where it’s the fighter, barbarian, rogue, etc that’s carrying the party with the damage

[silk hare]

1 better, the "evil sorcerer" that destroyed their village killed the parents multiple times bc he is insane

aka revivify and make them watch

[reef tundra]

You know what? I can agree with that. I’d say they have an equal middle ground, but I can agree that caster would have higher highs

[silk hare]

which is defo possible, but mostly an issue of "knowing how to build a spellcaster right" if you get what I mean

[reef tundra]

If the DM doesn’t hand out items, I agree they cannot reach those highs

[silk hare]

yeh thats my main issue with martials, I mostly dont want to HAVE to depend on someone giving me handouts to be able to have fun and not feel underpowered

[tired stone]

Even better, what if it comes from someone that they thought was one of their closest allies

[silk hare]

also a lot of the stuff spell casters do doesnt even come from direct damage, but also just how strong they are in controlling the battlefield

[reef tundra]

that’s valid, everyone has their different preferences

[silk hare]

e.g. a Web spell at low lvls shuts down entire fights

[reef tundra]

I’ve always thought that the DMG and PHB should highlight more that items are more important for non-casters

[silk hare]

dont get me started on fireball, or any good AOE 3rd lvl spells such as spirit guardians, hunger of hadar etc

[silk hare]

100% agreed

[reef tundra]

I do like hunger of Hadar

[silk hare]

I love it, its actually kind of suboptimal, but its such a funny concept to me

"I conjure up slimy eldritch acid tentacles in magical darkeness that nothing can pierce, oh look, he went in there, now its cthulus business"

same with ray of sickness, love the concept, but it needs some setup sadly

but if you can e.g. get a web off via e.g. a scroll or sth (assuming your dm ignores the, "must be on list" class rule) you can just have your martial hold conc on it and sickening radiance them too

and everyone just spams them from afar while they slowly die of exhaustion

(assuming no one knows wall of force yet)

bc if they do its just having 2 spell casters in the party that do that haha

[rough basalt]

Ye there's a part on XGE where it says roughly "if you don't give out magic items, don't use monsters they'd need them for" which is most of the 2014 MM

Indirectly saying "the items exist to be given out"

[reef tundra]

Rip resistance and immunity to non-magic damage

[rough basalt]

Ye now we got the magic item tracker

[reef tundra]

-# For better and for worse

[rough basalt]

Which just like in '14, if you refuse to givem out in '24 you're the problem.

You can get away with making magic items more sparing and more special in '24 but outright not having them in the game is just ridiculous

Cause DnD is a heroic fantasy and heroic fantasy has dudes with flaming swords slaying Dragons and crap.

[median anvil]

Does DnD generally play in a pre-defined world with existing history, continents and whatnot? Guess that depends on the rule set right? Given this conversation was about '24 so generally the heroic fantasy statement is true in this particular case. Never thought about it. Guess this is better asked in the newcomers channel

[rough basalt]

You can always play in your own setting, but the system assumes you're playing Heroic Fantasy

Like magic items for example
Majority are for martials or utility/unique just anyone items because magic items are main side martials progression

[median anvil]

Yea i am not experienced enough for this conversation didn't understand what that meant at all, also dont wanna disrupt the general discussion with my newby stuff. I appreciate the response nonetheless

[rough basalt]

Cause Hero finding the legendary sword that can kill a monster personally is a core heroic trope.

[rough basalt]

It's fine, we're just checking off the daily checklist

[rigid peak]

good day

[rough basalt]

There's an unofficial kind of joke checklist for the server on a daily basis and martial/caster differences is one that's reliably hit.

[rigid peak]

im new here

[rough basalt]

Welcome

[median anvil]

I see, sounds like fun banter

[rigid peak]

can anyone help me? i wanna learn how to uhm join

[rough basalt]

It can get heated, but its something that doesn't go away cause of how people play dnd.

[rough basalt]

#find-a-game channel will tell you how

Lot of people don't play by the book, and often this not playing by the book buffs spellcasters. But in games ran by the book at least for the most part, there's stuff martial classes do much better than spellcasters and vice versa.

[burnt valley]

Some DMs are too stubborn to not play a different system when trying to do a highly realistic, mundane campaign

[rough basalt]

Single target damage being the most noticeable one

[burnt valley]

Wdym by "not playing by the book"?

[rough basalt]

Ignoring certain balance rules for sake of convenience and very liberal RoC

[burnt valley]

What balance rules like stuff from Session 0?

[rough basalt]

Some people will ignore stat requirements on gear allowing wizards to wear Heavy Armor without issue

Some people will allow spells to do stuff they can't which can set an unhealthy precedent.

A big issue is DMs who let the party Long Rest whenever they want

[median anvil]

Reminds me of kids that never were defeated in kids fantasy games as in "you're dead! No you're dead"

[rough basalt]

Cause that makes spellcasters basically main characters since they'll never be without their best spells

But in my Tuesday game for example, RoC is minimal and fair, and we don't really ignore much that can break the system (Shrodingers regular ammo) tho I track mine personally for fun and me and the other martials tend to put in stupid amounts of work.

[worn lagoon]

i can't teach my party how to short rest tbh

[reef tundra]

I just shorten short rests to literally sitting down for like 10 minutes, or doing chill activities

[rough basalt]

And it is a level 14 game so the casters do have reality warping spells

[reef tundra]

Makes it so much easier to slip them in

-# Although it does make me a little nervous when there’s a warlock in my games /j

[rough basalt]

I tried that once and I had a dude abusing it so I strictly do resting rules by the general rule

[burnt valley]

Tbh, its more of how experienced the player of the caster is, while yes they're weaker without their best spells in each level, it doesn't take away from the fact that good resource management mitigates this and having the virtue of not engaging in melee

[reef tundra]

Ooh, I can see that becoming a problem for me too

[rough basalt]

I've been in a game where someone (me, and other casters) knew how to resource mitigate and the one who put in the most work was a Fighter with a bow, in a dungeon

Like sure we did the most to the mobs, but if he wasn't doing 50 to 100 damage to the Lich every round, Orcus would've been summoned and we would've all died

[worn lagoon]

so far my casters haven't contributed as much

[rough basalt]

It's just about knowing what both sides are good at

A caster likely isn't gonna be the one putting in the most work on a boss

They're gonna be the best at keeping the martials safe from the bosses minions

[reef tundra]

Like I say all the time, I’ve been playing RAI for years and years and I’ve seen both sides shine

All the classes serve their roles well, if you’re having a problem playing well, then either you or your DM is not doing something right

[rough basalt]

Like sure Meteor Swarm does 40d6 damage total, but guess what, this monster is immune to fire, and has magic resistance so they pass and only take 36 bludgeoning

[reef tundra]

And no, a martial taking damage is not a flaw in their design, that’s their job

[burnt valley]

If you're using 9th level spell slots just solely to do damage, I dont think its making much use of said slot that much

[reef tundra]

Better the fighter get hit than the wizard get hit

[rough basalt]

But here comes the fighter with a vicious greatsword
9 attacks for 35d6 of non-resisted damage.

[worn lagoon]

the one time i ran lv20 combat the fighter did pretty absurd damage

[lean lark]

Unless they're a monk or rogue

[reef tundra]

Very true. They are the exception

Take care of your monks and rogues people, they’re second line fighters, not first line

[brittle beacon]

I have had a absolute blast with my trident focused champion

[burnt valley]

Most creatures are melee specialists, HP is a resource too

[brittle beacon]

Rogue Generally avoid damage through cc, hide and disengage. Monk can be a dodge tank or a disengaged focus depending on the player

[rough basalt]

That Fighter is doing a minimum of 51 + GWM + Mod which will be over 10 so minimum in the 60s for one action surge use without a crit for BA (9th attack I should've ignored) and rolling 1s on all damage. And ignoring their vicious weapon dice which is another 16d6 so minimum in the 70s if they only roll 1s

If they roll average it's in the triple digits

[brittle beacon]

hp is a resource but martial (at least now) Usually have a way of either gaining hp back or avoiding/reducing the damage heavily

[rough basalt]

Most creatures nowadays have ranged and melee

Or a melee that can go out for a far reach that's effectively a ranged option in most cases

[burnt valley]

Tanking does not exist, there are no reliable ways to force aggro without disguising homebrew as RAI so creatures could simply ignore your character and hit the ones at the back anyway

[rough basalt]

Like a Balor grabbing your wizard with his whip and dragging them into the thunderdome.

[burnt valley]

This assumes all attacks hit

[humble cairn]

Though 2024 does bring it a bit closer to reality with new Grapple rules.

[rough basalt]

At level 20, most enemies have 18 to 22 AC
Fighter to hit bonus is +11 without expected magic items which boost it to +15+

So if you're not rolling 1s and 2s you're probably gonna hit

[humble cairn]

A Str class who has an enemy Grappled prevents them from walking away and gives them Disadv to hit anyone else. Against a melee monster, they basically almost guarantees that they have no other target.

[rough basalt]

Like the level 20 fighter I mentioned had a +18 to hit

With items expected for a level 20 fighter

[brittle beacon]

eh there are a a good amount of ways(now) to defend a ally against attack now while making your self appealing or just making your self the only option. The protection fighting style prone combo is a solid example.

[rough basalt]

Which meant he only missed if he rolled nat 1s which he was a champion so he could just inspiration nat 1s, this is barring the lich with shield getting 25AC which only made him miss one attack usually if that

[humble cairn]

And if you specialize in grappling (ie take Grappler and/or Street Justice) you can really tie up enemies.

[rough basalt]

Ye you can arrest people easier now it's hilarious

Street Justice is one of my favorite new feats

[humble cairn]

Mine, too!

[brittle beacon]

my favorite feat is charger

[rough basalt]

I love how feats are currently

The addition of making them all half feats really juiced up build diversity imo

[lean lark]

Feats are definitely fun.

I do like how 2024 added more weight to the backgrounds

[rough basalt]

I love it. I'll admit it's not flawless, but I think it's fun

Like there's feats in 2024 I'd never take in '14 due to just not being worth losing an ASI or taking over GWM/SS/Crossbow/War Caster

And due to monster changes, feats like Athlete can be very good

[silk hare]

ultimate coffelocke unlocked

[rough basalt]

New Mage Slayer tho

Absolute cinema.

[reef tundra]

I say if they combined the old and the new one, it would be peak

I like both, don’t get me wrong, but both together would be perfecto 👌

[rough basalt]

I can agree with that

I'm just glad that martial build variety has gotten a boon with '24.
Makes me always end up wanting to play a martial in '24

[lean lark]

Thri Kreen Mage Slayer when

[rough basalt]

For my paladin I could see myself taking athlete if my rogue dies

[robust fable]

Playing a martial is griefing the party. Both in 14 and 24

[remote wadi]

Okay, I wouldn't go that far

Martials are somewhat worse, but that doesn't mean playing one is inherently bad

[reef tundra]

It’s clearly just a bait

[remote wadi]

Like, there's a reason Ranger and Paladin are both very great as half and half

[reef tundra]

On another (better) topic, has anybody had an encounter with a “cowardly” party?

The other day I was just DMing and I think I encountered my first. If in any battle they didn’t immediately have the upper hand, they’d just flee

[remote wadi]

So far, not yet

But I do want to ask

[reef tundra]

And I’m not talking about avoiding fights they can’t win, I mean if they aren’t clearly at an advantage during the fight or are clearly stronger than the enemy, they’d just run

[worn lagoon]

Two days ago in a session we heard screams and wolf howls in a nearby forest and I convinced the party not to go because "whoever screamed from that far away will certainly be dead by the time we find her." We went anyway and found her dead.

[remote wadi]

For my Ranger, should I spend more levels to get to 7th level?

Or should I spend one of my next feats getting Res Wis?

[true oyster]

Would anyone be willing to dm for me and my friends in 2 days? It’s our first campaign and the set we want to order is out of stock

[remote wadi]

I'm leaning towards the latter because getting a swim speed, climb speed, and Wis save proficiency doesn't feel worth 2 extra levels

[tall forge]

My first campaign, my party ran away from a guy in a bush crying for help

I legit had no evil intention, dude was a survivor of an attack

[reef tundra]

#find-a-game

[tall forge]

But this party had run away from literally every encounter

So i said screw it, ill give you something to run from

[reef tundra]

I say wait until level 8, even though resilient is peak

[tall forge]

and thats how the zombie apocalypse occurred

[reef tundra]

Hell yes

[tall forge]

Best part? It was technically caused by the fact that they ran from any threats

[glass granite]

Idk, but sounds like a conversation for #character-discussion

[tall forge]

Those players arent cowards anymore :)

(We had a big talk about how i wouldnt put them in a situation that’s unwinnable, and if i did and they needed to run it would be incredibly obvious)

[wanton sorrel]

nnow i have my stuff.... i just had to regestered my card :3

well that was a big suffering for about several hours of sleep

[winter thorn]

I was watching a video that reminded me of claw weapons in eldenring and realized, DND doesn't have claw weapons. Unless your a moon druid transforming into a bear. So that begs my question. Is there a good weapon we could reflavor into a claw weapon. Preferably one of the slashing ones you dual wield.

[reef tundra]

Shortswords, maybe?

Or scimitars, they would work

[glass granite]

Dagger, scimitar or shortsword. I’d say scimitar

[worn lagoon]

Sickles?

[glass granite]

Could work

[deft juniper]

Hey guys

Good morning

[burnt valley]

Is it possible to reflavour a class to a different class entirely

Like Wizard cosplaying as a battlemaster fighter

[hot gate]

Flavor can go a very long way, but at some point there is increased ludonarrative dissonance.

[burnt valley]

"This maneuver allows me to throw a Fireball by thrusting the Trident in the air really really fast"

[hot gate]

Yeah, that's possible. Though then the question becomes why someone is able to badmouth (counterspell) your trident

[remote wadi]

For context, I'm planning to subclass into Rogue. Think a sniper class

Problem is, my character is dead, but will be resurrected presumably as a vampire

The less I have to deal with the blood consumption, the better

[burnt valley]

The insult was so good that it threw my movement off guard

[remote wadi]

So I'm just thinking i take Res Wis at my next feat

[hot gate]

Very good, but really though: #character-discussion

[remote wadi]

Fair enough

[idle oar]

Please use the most appropriate channel for a topic - this channel is for D&D topics that don’t fit in existing channels

[remote wadi]

Is it okay to talk about a potential character concept here? Specifically how they would work in combat

[pliant sapphire]

#character-discussion fits better

[idle oar]

#character-discussion is the best channel to discuss character concepts (or #optimization depending on if that’s a focus)

[wanton sorrel]

I can finally relax now :3 sighs....

[lean lark]

First TPK?

[wanton sorrel]

no... I just had to regesterd my card in order to buy massive purchus is all....

[severe rampart]

Spoiling yourself eh?

that's nice

[wanton sorrel]

i bought 3 core 2024 books, the multi-universe book, spelljammers, D&D character sheets, hellfire club, D&D character sheets, some dice sets from another site... etc

[zenith wind]

what's your favourite thing to do when you interact with the local town mobsters

[severe rampart]

steal, negotiate, other than that I don't deal with mobsters

the final boss to a oneshot I was a player in was a Sea Hag surprisingly

[zenith wind]

i mean like the local theives guild

[glass granite]

Beat em up after they try and steal from me

[zenith wind]

i was thinking either that or do that snapping they do against them

[wanton sorrel]

now on my phone i now have all the stuff i bought from D&D beyond

[burnt valley]

Steal

[wanton sorrel]

I never knew purchusing items on the internet would be this in hard x'D

a few hours ago i felt like a rolled a 1 everytime i tried to make a purchus for D&D x'D

I can now rest in peace now...

[tame kelp]

What are Downtime sessions usually look like?

My campaign never have a downtime session ever before

[worn lagoon]

snail racing, mostly

[tidal bough]

Normally you can run downtime over the week while youre not playing session (time skips between adventures etc.)

[rough basalt]

Pretty much yeah

Downtime sessions are a bit of a snoozefest imo

[tidal bough]

Alternatively just do full rp

[rough basalt]

Some people like them if they can RP a lot but even then

Some people won't even engage in downtime at all is another scenario you can run into

[silk hare]

yes, have a mass hallucinatory dream

so you can also have any environment you want lol

#beachepisode

[rough basalt]

As a DM I give out a good bit of downtime but it's not really used.

[silk hare]

I mean its ultimately up to the players how to use it

[rough basalt]

I partially blame it on downtime stuff being in extra splatbooks and dmg

Well a lot of players don't even know what to do or what they can do with downtime.

[silk hare]

yeh the annoying part is that you have to tell the players about the options they have

[timber turtle]

what job would be the best for a vampire thats a good person?

[wanton sorrel]

if the hp is 52 ( 8d8 +16) do i roll that 8d8 + 16 with the 52?

[rough basalt]

No the 52 is just average hp

[wanton sorrel]

ok

[fathom gate]

I need a quick idea for a one piece based campaign

[rough basalt]

You can roll monster hp if you want but the static number is just the average for quick general use

[wanton sorrel]

ok that make sense

[north hawk]

Really the best way to approach downtime is what does the character want to do with their free time. Then adjudicate the results using existing rules or improvise.

[pliant sapphire]

Undertaker

[wanton sorrel]

i guess i'll use that terminaology to use it on elite diffculty :3

[rough basalt]

I like how there's an option for just working a normal job.
It's like the "oh you don't know what you wanna do? Just go ahead and make some extra gold"

[timber turtle]

thats good, what if they wanted to get rich ?

[glass granite]

Gamblerrrr

[rough basalt]

They're a vampire.
They have forever to live.
If they're broke then that's a major skill issue

[glass granite]

LOL

[timber turtle]

getting human blood is probably more expensive then groceries

you prolly have to pay sexworker to get it

[rough basalt]

Nah you could probably just thrall someone who works at a hospital and have them slip a bloodbag whenever you need it

[timber turtle]

it wouldnt be nice to enthrall someone

[rough basalt]

Hey, you're being nice by not feeding on the innocent.

[timber turtle]

one wrong doesnt make a right

still mindcontrol

[glass granite]

Kinda hard not to do a wrong here

[rough basalt]

Also, I'm not doing one right. I'm doing many rights

Tho another option is become a Night Janitor at a hospital

[timber turtle]

then you cause people to die fom lack :(

[rough basalt]

Just drink the most common blood type, and sparingly

[robust fable]

It is

There is no real reason to play a martial

[glass granite]

Counterpoint: fun

Tis a real reason

[rough basalt]

Counterpoint: What's a caster gonna do against a monster that saves and is immune to what they do

[glass granite]

Or in an antimagic field

[timber turtle]

martials cant be magic resisted

[rough basalt]

"I cast fireball" wizards when they're stuck in a room with Fiends

[remote wadi]

On top of Nugget's point

Then why does one of the best trios have 2 martials?

[pliant sapphire]

Rakshasa 💀

[rough basalt]

And can't pull the "I'll use cold spells" out cause a lot of Fiends resist cold damage and have magic resistance so they're only taking a quarter damage most of the time

[fathom gate]

Theres no “I” in “team” but there are 6 in “Screw it, i dont care how big the room is, i cast fireball”

[rough basalt]

And nothing happens except you hurt yourselves

Cause the monsters are immune to fire

[robust fable]

What trio are you talking about?

[robust fable]

Use spells that don't allow for saves/good even if they succeed

[rough basalt]

Half/quarter damage ain't much when the monster has 400hp

Or it's several monsters with 80 to 100

[robust fable]

Im (mostly) not talking about save for half spells

[winter thorn]

Oh! Yes a sickle is pretty close. But here's another option; double bladed scimitar 2d4 and has the finesse property unlike the sickle.

[rough basalt]

Utility spells ain't really gonna help much either

[robust fable]

And ofc there are no other types of spells

[winter thorn]

Blade singer probably?

[rough basalt]

There's attack roll spells which are usually commonly resisted damage types, saves which monsters rarely fail common saves as you go higher, and utility that at best will get you out of trouble.

[glass granite]

They’re not one handed tho…

[robust fable]

Name any monster and a level, i will tell you how to deal with it as a caster party

[rough basalt]

Buff spells don't matter if you can't actually damage the opponent more than they damage you

[winter thorn]

Eldenring dual wield them so I see no problem with this.

[glass granite]

The problem is RAW. So unless the DM waives it…

[robust fable]

Or you can even give me entire combat(s)/dungeons

[rough basalt]

Balor

[robust fable]

What level?

[winter thorn]

The only synergy you miss out on is you can't use the dual wielder feat.

[robust fable]

Also 14 or 24

[winter thorn]

Dueling fighting style? Maybe?

[rough basalt]

24, level 13 let's say

[remote wadi]

Paladin, Ranger, Wizard

[winter thorn]

Exactly; still it's not a bad option. And most dms are willing to work with the player.

[glass granite]

Sure, just that cuz it’s two handed it’s just kinda weird (to me) to think of them as claws. Also is this 2014 or 2024?

[rough basalt]

At that level and it being alone they have the advantage, but shutting it down is a stretch.

[winter thorn]

Either or. But since it is two handed take feats great weapon master or great weapon fighting; still it's up to your DM to decide.

[glass granite]

GWF is actually very good for once

[robust fable]

Any other enemies? Also whats the map? Just basic things like open field vs closed space, room size, ceiling height, cover are enough

[glass granite]

Does it work with GWM?

[winter thorn]

Im checking now just to be sure

[glass granite]

Pretty sure it doesn’t. The double bladed scimitar is one of (or the only one) who has the two handed property but lacks the heavy property

And GWM specifies it must be Heavy

[rough basalt]

Closed space, let's say a 100ft dome or something. Like a battle arena. Let's say with 1 Marilith

[robust fable]

If its an open field you just kite it to death

Other than that you can use Fog Cloud/Pyrotechnics+Wall of Force/Forcecage and shoot it to death

[rough basalt]

It has a bonus action 60ft teleport and flight speed of 80

[glass granite]

While GWF says you just have to use two hands

[rough basalt]

Forcecage isn't something you can get all the time tho

Especially since they rightfully nerfed it.

Also the Balor can just pass the save and teleport out

[winter thorn]

So you can use half of the feat. When you crit or reduce a creature to 0 with a melee weapon, you gain a bonus action attack. But it's redundant as the special property of the DBS allows you to already do this. So technically, gwm gives you a chance to do an extra d4 of damage.

[robust fable]

Nvm then you can only use the other methods

[glass granite]

Which…is not great

But it is something

[winter thorn]

And I didn't see anywhere the weapon has finesse so it's a strength weapon. But these things can be work shopped with your DM so I'm not worried. Lol

[robust fable]

Wait mevermind

[crystal latch]

Ok so the marilith is a melee monster with extra stuff to discourage going into melee with it
Its teleport is line of sight only

[winter thorn]

Agreed

[rough basalt]

And that's when the Marilith teleports to the fog cloud caster and beats them to desth

[robust fable]

All their teleport stuff needs LOS

[crystal latch]

Sleet storm hard counters this thing lmao

[robust fable]

Thats why we use Fog Cloud/Pyrotechnics/Sleet Storm

[glass granite]

It’s Finesse with the feat

[crystal latch]

Sleet and speed debuffs

[rough basalt]

Alright, well, killing them both finished the ritual and now Demogorgon is coming.

[glass granite]

Plus you get AC

Which is nice

[robust fable]

Is a Wall needed? Or just difficult terrain+RoF+Repelling Blast enough?

[winter thorn]

So I think I'd take fighter initiate for great weapon fighting to reroll 1s, this way I do minimum 6 damage. Baring you have at least +2 str mod

[robust fable]

Nice asspull but sure 👍

[winter thorn]

Which feat?

[rough basalt]

Isn't that what your argument is all about tho? It only works that well if stuff happens as you want it to

[glass granite]

What class were you considering again? Also that feat is even better in 2024, you can’t get lower than a 3.

And Revenant Blade

[rough basalt]

Which isn't always the case in a game ran by a human being, not by lines of code.

[robust fable]

The Demogorgon doesn't even have a teleport

[winter thorn]

Nice. So 6 plus attack mod

[rough basalt]

My point is, you're relying on a white room scenario to prove something that's been proven otherwise since the games conception.

[robust fable]

It dies to the same things as before

[rough basalt]

Who said he's coming alone?

[robust fable]

So your point is that... im right?

[robust fable]

Then name the other stuff

[rough basalt]

Again, this is a tabletop game.
Going all casters will never always work

[crystal latch]

It will

[robust fable]

We just proved that it does

[glass granite]

Always is a strong term…

[winter thorn]

Which magic weapons have the same reflavor?

[rough basalt]

You proved that in a white room where the casters have the advantage that they win

[glass granite]

I’m not too familiar with magic items

[robust fable]

You made the room

[crystal latch]

Every scenario can be dismissed as a white room

[winter thorn]

Obviously +1, 2, 3

[humble cairn]

Is this a PVP discussion?

[rough basalt]

Usual "martials suck because if everything goes right casters are better"

[glass granite]

I think it’s smt about there’s no reason to play a martial but I haven’t been playing attention

[robust fable]

Give us a non white room scenario if you want to?

Or idk what will convince you

[humble cairn]

Because that discussion is kind of dead on arrival.

[crystal latch]

2+2 only equals 4 in a white room

[robust fable]

No its not

Its about if an all caster party is good or not

[glass granite]

Sure, can be

[humble cairn]

Oh, well that's not even a good way to judge how good a class is. Ultimately the value of a class is how fun it is to play.

[glass granite]

Could be fun too

Blastin’

[reef tundra]

It’s bait, guys

[humble cairn]

Sure, it can be. Party composition isn't really something that needs to be optimized for a fun game.

[glass granite]

Oh hi

[reef tundra]

Hi Nugget

[severe rampart]

Yum

[tough lynx]

Umm no?

[winter thorn]

Depends on your campaign. Is it battle focused or is it RP focused. If rp, you'll have spells for days. If battle focused, it's good to have something to fall back on.

[humble cairn]

RP and battle aren't opposite things.

Combat is also RP. All three pillars of D&D are roleplay.

[rough basalt]

And to use my example, if I'm the DM in that situation and the party is all casters then I'm using a non-magical goal to drive them there into an AMF

[winter thorn]

Tho typically, some casters get attack cantrips. ½&⅓ castors being the exception.

[severe rampart]

How can you be 1/3 a caster

[glass granite]

Eldritch knight, arcane trickster

[rough basalt]

Because I'm a General of Demons, and I'm gonna exploit my enemies glaring flaw (playing from the Balors POV)

[severe rampart]

Ah.

[crystal latch]

I would say that an all-caster party is the most efficient possible party comp in 5e across an entire 1-20 campaign and requires significantly harder encounters to challenge than they would if one or more casters were replaced with a martial of equal optimization level

[winter thorn]

Eldritch knight and arcane trickster

[glass granite]

Hey that’s what I sai-

[humble cairn]

Eldritch Knights and Arcane Tricksters add 1/3 of their level for the purposes of multiclassing spell slots, hence 1/3 caster.

[severe rampart]

Unfortunate Arcane Trickster ain't free on DnD Beyond

[glass granite]

Neither is eldritch knight

[severe rampart]

All three of you are Echoing each others' words

[severe rampart]

What about Echo Knight

[glass granite]

Not free

[humble cairn]

Neither a 1/3 caster nor free.

[severe rampart]

Darn

[robust fable]

You can play whatever you want for rp focused games

You can play whatever you want for easier combat focused games

And as you go up in difficulty casters remain the only thing worth playing

This does NOT mean that rp focused/easier games are worse or anything

[rough basalt]

Most free Subclasses are the easiest/basic ones

[severe rampart]

Yeah was asking if it was free, quite unfortunate, could've made more jokes

[winter thorn]

I've been in a battle focused campaign for a few weeks now. I'm a moon druid and I'm always running out of slots. We get like 5 encounters per short/long rest.

[humble cairn]

Disagreed.

[rough basalt]

In my games, casters are usually on the ground.

[severe rampart]

Fighter, Rogue, Wizard, and Warlock having one is diabolical though

[crystal latch]

I generally view 2 wizards 2 warlocks specifically as the strongest 4-man comp, with a strong case for replacing one wiz with a druid

[glass granite]

All only have one

[severe rampart]

Yeah, only having one is what I meant

[glass granite]

Per Free basic Rules

[robust fable]

Which part of it do you disageee with?

[crystal latch]

For 5 PCs I'd say 2wiz2lock1druid

3 PCs probably 1wiz1lock1druidlock

[glass granite]

Yeah, but you just said only 4 out of 12 free classes

[severe rampart]

I would've loved Arcane Trickster on my Rogue, but what can you do

[humble cairn]

The casters being the only ones worth playing because what makes any class worth playing is how much fun they are, which makes worthiness subjective.

[reef tundra]

This is a brick wall conversation

[severe rampart]

Maybe I'm a bit biased, but I'd put a bard in there somewhere

[glass granite]

Martials are strong enough to hold their own even somewhat in hyperoptimised games, as long as you optimise them too often course.
But in 99% of play martials are perfectly viable

[humble cairn]

What is it with optimizers thinking optimizing is the only way to play?

[robust fable]

So you din't understand what i was talking about

Being fun to play and being strong have nothing to do with eachother

[glass granite]

I wouldn’t say nothing

Being strong is fun for many

[rough basalt]

Ye
Barb - Berserker
Bard - Lore
Cleric - Life
Druid - Land iirc
Fighter - Champion
Monk - Open Hand iirc
Paladin - Devotion
Ranger - Hunter
Rogue - Thief
Sorcerer - Draconic iirc
Warlock - Fiend iirc
Wizard - Evoker

[humble cairn]

And being "strong" has nothing to do with how "worth it" a class is to play.

[winter thorn]

I personally love spell blades. To cast and attack as needed. My current character is a tortle ranger with a mean mace.

[glass granite]

Bonk!
Also a STRanger, how exotic

[robust fable]

Dude

Thats what i was talking about

In non combat focues/easy games you can play anything, everything is worthfile if you want to say that way

[rough basalt]

Even in combat heavy games, usually as long as your PC is competent, you're fine.

[humble cairn]

Everything is worthwhile to play, depending on the player, exactly right.

[reef tundra]

Now I wanna see a dnd show called Ranger Things, a show of all rangers

[crystal latch]

I wouldn't because bard multiclasses poorly and has a largely underwhelming spell list until Magical Secrets, but it's certainly still a pretty good class

[severe rampart]

Darn, if you owned a physical book but you use DnD beyond then that really sucks, especially with how many people play online these days

[glass granite]

lol

[knotty pasture]

Rather than martials not being worth it I guess its closer to needing a spellcaster or two somewhere in your team

[winter thorn]

As a level 3 I get 1d6+6 bludgeoning, then I get 1d8 from zephyr strike or 2d6 from searing smite, and after that I do 1d4 psychic for my subclass.

[robust fable]

If thats the case then the combats are not heavy enough

[rough basalt]

Iirc you're allowed to put the stuff you own IRL into the personal homebrew on DnD beyond. You're just not allowed to share it.

[opal wharf]

Martials are fine in difficult games

Please stop trying to convince people that casters are the only valid choice cause that is only true at your table

[winter thorn]

And notice, half the damage is from a spell

[robust fable]

Simply most people play way below that level

[severe rampart]

Ohh, then that makes sense

[humble cairn]

What you think is worthwhile to play is different than what I think or what someone else may think. You don't get to decide what is worthwhile for everyone.

[reef tundra]

It’s all subjective, people, it’s not “Martials are bad” it’s “I prefer playing spellcasters” then they confuse subjective with objective

[opal wharf]

Are we playing dnd wrong?

[loud tendon]

People are obviously welcome to their own opinions but I would always hesitate to say "this way" is absolutely how it is.

I dont think i have played in a single game without a martial character in it. And that (or often those because there is more than one) martial has been essential to our success.
Multi attacks, ability to soak more damage, monks can stun, rogues can sneak attack.
You run out of spellslots, you dont run out of weapon attack.

[severe rampart]

There is no wrong way to play DnD (Unless you use ChatGPT, that is imo the wrong way)

[humble cairn]

Don't state your own preferences as being universally true, that's the height of egotism.

[glass granite]

I think your level is FARRRRR above the optimisation of 99.9% of the player base. And saying that martials aren’t worth it when speaking for the 0.1% doesn’t feel too correct.

[robust fable]

The picture in most player's head about what a hard encounter is wrong

[opal wharf]

Subjective

[glass granite]

Indeed, hence “imo”

[severe rampart]

Pardon me, English isn't my first language, I had a hard time finding a word for "Strongly Think"

[reef tundra]

That was my thought too

[knotty pasture]

If it doesn't involve triple ||Zariel|| at the end of Descent into Avernus it ain't the hardest

[opal wharf]

Edit button

[rough basalt]

Urizts games are a pretty good reference for how general play by the book meets difficult combat

[crystal latch]

Depends on what is meant by "difficult game"
It's kind of like a difficulty slider, the higher you put the slider the more things fall below the bar

[severe rampart]

You've played or watched it?

[rough basalt]

I've watched some stuff here and there

[crystal latch]

There's never a point where X class >Y class but X class falls off and Y class doesn't

[reef tundra]

I run soulslike campaigns and I run them RAI, and I have seen no divide or balance issues

[humble cairn]

Yeah, Urizt regularly kills characters (at least from what I've heard) and he often extols the power of martials in his game. Also he runs pretty close to RAW.

[rough basalt]

But mostly I hear it from him and a guy I know who plays with him.
He collects PCs bodies like it sustains his own life force

And yeah martials carry his games (his words)

[severe rampart]

What about Rangers? Hunter's Mark sucks

[reef tundra]

Let’s all just put this topic to rest

[crystal latch]

Ranger is a strong class, Hunter's Mark is a trap option

[reef tundra]

It’s a brick wall convo where nothing is actually being done

[glass granite]

Eh, I like DnD, and I like talking about it.

[rough basalt]

You can ignore HM and still build something very good, Ophid has a beastmaster he ignores HM with that he praises a lot iirc

[crystal latch]

I'd consider ranger the best non-fullcaster

[tough lynx]

Don’t use hunters mark

[knotty pasture]

You're picking Gloom Stalker Ranger for the nova damage and PWT not Hunter's Mark

[severe rampart]

I picked hunter because I'm poor

[humble cairn]

Have you used it? Because it doesn't suck at low levels and when you get to higher levels you get stuff that replaces it, Rangers don't depend on Hunter's Mark, they do fine without it.

[glass granite]

In 2024 it’s free, so using hunters mark is fine. And again, usable for most levels of tables.

[reef tundra]

Oh I don’t mind the other topics, just the one with sweeping “objective” statements

[rough basalt]

Only one that does largely is the Winter Walker which is pretty fun looking to me.

[knotty pasture]

You aren't in a high op table you're fine

[rain snow]

Yes it will

[severe rampart]

Yes, I've used it at the lower levels, that's mostly it though, still it dominated the early game

Unfortunate that I quit the campaign the lil dude was in

[knotty pasture]

Use whatever you want

[crystal latch]

Hunter's Mark is a trap that steals your goodberries to do less damage than a bonus action hand crossbow attack

[humble cairn]

Exactly, I'm currently level 14 and I've used it .. twice.

[rain snow]

Yes it does, use crossbow expert instead you get more damage and keep spell slots

[knotty pasture]

Me when people don't appreciate the art of 5 Ranger 1 Cleric 4 Fighter 2 Warlock

Look at all those ultra powerful Goodberries that's a long rest's worth of healing

[severe rampart]

Holy crap

[crystal latch]

Lifeberry enjoyer gang

[severe rampart]

Is this what optimizers do

[rain snow]

flagshit ranger? just run ranger 9 cleric one

[glass granite]

This is assuming 2014 correct?

[crystal latch]

It's the surface

[humble cairn]

You can't really get XBE til level 4 and by then Hunter's Mark is beginning to be phased out, so my point still stands?

[rain snow]

No, that build is considered mid-high OPP

[robust fable]

The tip of the iceberg

[rain snow]

Play a variant human, it’s the only viable race for martials except for custom lineage

[severe rampart]

Variant human is 2014 correct?

[humble cairn]

Oh you're talking 2014 rules, I haven't looked back since the change.

[rain snow]

And weird builds, but they suck

[opal wharf]

Only???

[tough lynx]

Yup

[rain snow]

Or use antimatter rifles

[rough basalt]

Ye once you get Spike Growth, my approach would be swapping between SG and HM based off the situation then at level 9 with third level magic only use it to finish off bosses imo

[glass granite]

And said iceberg is floating farrrr away from the mainland where most players are

[tough lynx]

And that’s fine

[glass granite]

Indeed

[opal wharf]

Nope viable is subjective again

[rain snow]

I haven’t bothered looking forwards, I read enough to realize they nerfed martials and buffed casters and decided it wasn’t worth my time

[severe rampart]

Optimizers would hate to see my 2014 Warlock coming

[knotty pasture]

Its the first time in this server where someone critiques ttb builds, do you have better suggestions for where I should look

[tough lynx]

We are talking about high op

[rough basalt]

Speaking of HM.
I'm glad the Vengeance Pallys channel divinity got the ability to be reapplied to new targets like HM/Hex/ect

[glass granite]

They…did?

[tough lynx]

Yeah

[humble cairn]

Disagreed about that, but I'm not looking to try and convince a diehard.

[crystal latch]

Mainstream optimization also tends to be completely unaware of where the iceberg is which is how you get "the bestest ever paladin smite spam elven accuracy massive nova damage" (five miscalculations and it's unimpressive compared to a ranger)

[rain snow]

formofdread Wordpress is good, TTB is quite strong for mid to midhigh but higher op stuff isn’t as good

[humble cairn]

Not really.

[rough basalt]

They didn't nerf martials?

[knotty pasture]

Appreciate it fellow optimizer fan

[glass granite]

All the martial classes got buffed, and I don’t think the same can be said to the same extent to the casters.

[rough basalt]

They buffed build variety and overall

[rain snow]

they nerfed crossbow expert and sharpshooter which were the only things keeping martials viable, and then gave them minor buffs that don’t make it up

[glass granite]

Except Ranger maybe

[rough basalt]

That is certainly a take

[humble cairn]

-# sigh

[opal wharf]

optimisation is boring and comes across as you’re playing that game wrong

[knotty pasture]

Well tbh the whole 2024 thing came down to how in 2014, there was already a caster vs martial gap

2024 nerfed the best martial options while buffing the weakest ones, but that didn't actually do anything to decrease the gap between casters and martials, it just decreased the gap between martials themselves

[opal wharf]

Same arguments every few weeks

[rough basalt]

Optimization is fine, if you acknowledge that your style of play is niche and what you see is not what majority see.

[knotty pasture]

Which is nice but not what optimizers are hoping for