dnd-discussion

[burnt valley]

Skywrite is one

[stoic obsidian]

I know right

[halcyon forum]

Prestidigitation is amazing, what are you talking about?!

[naive cedar]

Prestidigitation is just the “wizard waves their hand and thing appears” spell

[stoic obsidian]

Well you can write a message in the sky, so it is useful for a couple reasons

[minor cargo]

I affectionately call it Level 0 wish.

[hidden spindle]

Rock Gnome Prestidigition can be used with Raging Barbarian's & Druid's Wild Shape.

[lavish flame]

cook

They're prolly on holiday break tho

[timid current]

my favorite chaos moment was when we were parlaying and it wasn't going well so I said "look over there!" and handed my DM a piece of paper

[halcyon forum]

Skywrite is also not loser level, it has a very specific niche, in which it is really good

[timid current]

the piece of paper was cartoon cloud lettering that said "The oldest trick in the book"

[potent siren]

prestidigitation is by far the best spell in the game

[halcyon forum]

adventurer life would be absolutely miserable without it

[burnt valley]

For trinkets that doesn't last for a minute

[burnt valley]

Tbh i've only used it to shut an NPC up that kept repeating "Tickets please"

[halcyon forum]

people use it in my games all the time, mostly to clean clothes but for other stuff too

like flavoring food, heating clothes up or cooling stuff down etc

[stone panther]

i personally like thaumaturgy better, but i like being a face character and it lends itself a little better to that

[burnt valley]

I was willing to waste a higher level spell slot to cast Disintegrate on it (it was an illusion the entire time and it was just a corpse past the illusion)

[potent siren]

"I can cast a swarm of meteors to befall you!"
"Oh yeah? I can manifest a red rubber ball using my mind, and they dont even have a rubber industry in this prime material!"

[burnt valley]

If we're grading spells based on mechanical effectiveness, i would think the roleplay spells be at the bottom

But if its the rp potential then ig its high up there

[halcyon forum]

I mean roleplay also has an influence on your success in a campaign

so you cant really disregard the spells supporting it just because it doesnt inflict a condition or does damage

lighting a fire or warming up your clothes can have tangible impact on the course of events in a game

as do the trinkets you can conjure

[severe rampart]

"yeah so that shirt you warmth up with magic? yeah it's a mimic and it didn't appreciate that"

[hidden spindle]

Power in Creativity

[severe rampart]

if I learned anything about DnD, suspect everything as a mimic

[burnt valley]

Its pretty much depends on the DM, they could either just make it not work at all or they do work with a catch

[rugged hawk]

ur a mimic

[halcyon forum]

i guess there might be some anti-fun DMs out there

[severe rampart]

my character is a changeling

[hidden spindle]

Thaumaturgy is good for giggling Gelatinous Cubes

[halcyon forum]

(am not saying to use the spell outside of RAW btw)

[potent siren]

The tavern of mimic entities

[scarlet marsh]

Once played a one shot where the "haunted house" we were investigating was a massive mimic. That whole session was comedy too.

[burnt valley]

Wait it works?

[stone panther]

i dont think ive ever once thrown a mimic at my party. i plan to change that soon though lol

[potent siren]

The chair, the mug, the tables! Even the ale in the mimic barrels is just a type of Ooze!

[rugged hawk]

☠️ The tavern of jiggly wiggly Gelatinous Cubes, waiting to warm you up for the night with their soft, squishy slimegirl embrace

[burnt valley]

Treat everything as mimics, treat all magic items as cursed and treat dungeons as mega trapped lol

An ultra paranoid character sounds fun to play

[rugged hawk]

You forgot the bit about treating the DM as a sadistic party-killing maniac

[naive cedar]

my phone is a mimic

[knotty pasture]

Best if they're a Cleric or Druid

You need high wisdom for perception and insight checks to help out the paranoia

[burnt valley]

A neat upside to this character is that they are super extra prepared

[rugged hawk]

No no, low Perception and Insight are the best things for paranoia, because then they can't even trust their own senses to show them the truth. It's lies, ALL LIES, all the way down!

[halcyon forum]

of course. Presti has mechanical impact. it can create light sources, counteract cold environments, give you the right object to solve a riddle etc.

[knotty pasture]

Good point

[hot marlin]

Actually skywrite is plenty useful in very specific situations. Useless in combat, sure, but it can pass messages to a large amount of people immediately.

Probably have a scroll with it.

[burnt valley]

Wouldn't telepathic link be better for it?

[severe rampart]

I read that as massages and I was very confused

[hot marlin]

Better than preparing it

[burnt valley]

Oh god that would be a force divider lol

[hot marlin]

Not at all. Telepathic bond is for a limited number of people, all within 30 feet at the time of casting, and for just an hour

[atomic kayak]

Part of the reason skywrite is neat is because of its mechanics

But also its best use case is on prep casters

[hot marlin]

Its usefulness depends entirely on the narrative

[livid echo]

I have a quick question since I’ve not played before. The game room I plan to go to has one offs instead of campaigns,

Do you typically make a new toon for each one off or take same character through multiple one offs and if that’s the case are you always starting at level 1 or can you carry your level?

I mean in general because I’m sure different dungeon masters have different rules

Thanks

[severe rampart]

depends on the dungeon master yes, and I think it's your choice if you want to reuse the same character sheet

[livid echo]

Cool ty

[severe rampart]

experienced DnD players, how did you react when you had your first ever PC death?

[keen valve]

Relief. Daunhar's death was so releasing for me in a weird way.

I was free to do something new.

I think I wanna be a vampire Rakshasa. That'd be super cool. Vampire demons have got to be cool. Is that what's hip with the kids these days? Vampire demons? Maybe undead vampire demon fiends?

[rugged hawk]

Dungeon Masters are just Eldritch Evils from beyond the Far Realms moving mortal pawns around for their amusement. Change my mind.

[naive cedar]

what about a vampire mimic?

[wintry spindle]

Remember even though the DM might be powerful in game, you can always beat them out of game. This is true metagaming

[loud tendon]

One of my first ever characters got hit by a very high level spell. The DM hadn't meant for us to get into a location or certainly all the way to the bosses room of that location.. so it was way too high a level for us and we didnt know (most of us were new players). Cloud of daggers was 3 damage away from doubling my characters hp which would have outright killed her.
I remember just feeling so shocked because it was so unexpected.

She didnt die but it was so close.

The one time a character did die was because a party member after a battle Royale type scenario decided to roll a set of magical dice we had won in an earlier fight.. right as we were taking a long rest.
Each roll had an effect with two 6s being the best reward and two 1s being an instant tpk.

He rolled 1 die... it was a one. He then looked up at the table, someone said "dont you dare" but he said "ive already started, I have to finish". Second die was a 1.

All dead. End of night. End of characters.

I was so frustrated I got up and started sorting hundreds of unsorted Pokémon cards that we had. My favorite character at the time. Tpk'd in a long rest because of curiosity

[wintry spindle]

First time i died was in a oneshot. I got poisoned and did not recover

kinda anticlimatic

[cursive fjord]

If I wanted to ask something about Roll20 where would be the best place to ask? Im trying to add my Int Mod to all my Wisdom Skills. Kind of like Fey Wander Ranger

[lost flicker]

i'm meant to be running a new campaign in a few months, but i've yet to read like most of the book.. how do y'all find the motivation to read campaign books?

[spare fjord]

Tbh, I don't. I almost never prep anything in advance - maybe a chapter or encounter at most. I've just gotten very good at winging it

[lost flicker]

that's- fair I guess, doesn't really answer the question but I do get what you're saying

[spare fjord]

I don't think this server has specific virtual tabletop channels. You could try the off topic channel maybe? But you might have better luck with roll20 support or their forums

[rose wedge]

Roll20 also has a discord.

[spare fjord]

I guess it's more of a, "you don't necessarily need to read the entire campaign book in advance" answer. If you feel you need to do that to run it properly, then maybe do some amount on a set schedule - like a chapter a week. Otherwise, I'd recommend figuring out which parts you need in advance and focus on those

[lost flicker]

personally I'd atleast prefer to finish reading the campaign book before running it you know? to avoid complications

[sly delta]

Hello all im a dnd kinda greenhorn ive been in a couple campaigns and was looking for ppl to talk to abt dnd nd maybe find some ppl to start a campaign

[crimson gulch]

i crack them open at the table and do it live in session

[empty thicket]

the so powerful "who read this is X" would be so funny

[crimson gulch]

i have ran curse of strahd 3 times and there are still parts of it i have not read

[empty thicket]

#find-a-game there, be happy

[loud tendon]

Newer folks can feel free to ask questions over in #dnd-newcomers

#find-a-game gives you the instructions on how to use the commands for our looking for channels which can be a place to find games.

[sly delta]

I don’t think I like that attitude but alas thank you good sir

[sly delta]

Wataaaaa thank you very much kind soul

[empty thicket]

Sorry if that isnt for your liking, didnt expected to be taken like Rude.

[lost flicker]

ehhh yuck

not something I could do, personally, i'd panic too much over it

[sly delta]

You are very okay sir I was just jesting I very much appreciate the help

[empty thicket]

Good good, remember, dont mix 2 potions never

[lost flicker]

more power to you though

[crimson gulch]

It helps that I use them more as improv aids and less as a strict thing I need to run

It's worked great for me, I have ran every 5e campaign book

[sly delta]

I’m just a chaotic little bard that sounds very fun

[lost flicker]

fair, I like reading through and taking guidline notes

[cobalt owl]

The consequences to mixing 2 potions together can have good benefits

But they can also have bad consequences too

[empty thicket]

depend mostly of the ingredients

[crimson gulch]

When I'm running from a book I don't usually make any notes

Until I write the recap of the session

[lost flicker]

thats fair, and- impressive

me personally, I use every campaign i run as an excuse to get a new notebook

[empty thicket]

If both potions are made with same ingredients it might just heal double or have more chances of permanent effects
If not, an ingredient can lead to the potion effect to change or worse, permanent debuff

[crimson gulch]

me too, for initative tracking and such, i run all my games on paper

[cobalt owl]

My notes are very sparse if they ever exist at all. And its mostly just player stuff

[stone panther]

im a terrible notetaker when it comes to dming, so i make a bullet list during the session and then write a more extensive recap after. I like making my players recap the last session at the start of each new one just in case i forgot anything, which usually i did

[cobalt owl]

I usually remember most of the thing anyway

[stone panther]

i mostly forget like, one-off character names i forgot to write down and stuff like that

[empty thicket]

same, or in last scenario i would take some notes at least of names and stuff

for now in the campaigns im in there isnt tooooo much stuff going on, just a few things but beside some names.
I remember most stuff

[cobalt owl]

my head is 50% "What gears need to shift for the major next plot point"
the other half is "Did I say something one offf that could wrench something" or various small bits

[empty thicket]

i still kinda roleplay some stuff, getting that much hits and damage must gave me some consequences, being knocked out too

[cobalt owl]

Wat

[empty thicket]

yeah, when fighting and you get KO, people can tend to forgot the last minute of stuff that happened
The amounts of hits i get isnt low so that too, my character isnt giga smart too so... that too

and if i need to remember something, i would use the Keen mind feat for asking the dm to remind me what happened last month

[cobalt owl]

I don't get how that relates to what I said but kek

[empty thicket]

might make me a little cabin in a forest, beside a river for fishing

[cobalt owl]

Ok now you're just saying stuff so imma mosey along

[mild charm]

I will just be looking for D&D one shots.

[empty thicket]

yep, a little bit

[rugged hawk]

How dare this fiendish villain leave two chests lying around EMPTY just to try and drop rocks on me.

[cobalt owl]

They would do that

[rugged hawk]

They could at least leave some loot in them for my trouble

Like Vecna's Hand, or Meridia's Beacon

[woven flint]

A NEW HAND-

[stark tundra]

A new hand touches the beacon

[woven flint]

Give the party an Artifact Level magic item that's an Orb, and it's sentient, but it only helps them of gives them guidance when it feels like it

I'm a genius

[cobalt owl]

You're something

[woven flint]

You're smelly, begone, Bone man! /joking

[cobalt owl]

Kek

[rugged hawk]

Cursed Returning Orb of Vicious Mockery. Like a cursed doll, keeps appearing whenever you try to dispose of it. When you're sleeping, wakes you with Vicious Mockeries.

[severe rampart]

I'm thinking about making an elf character that was adopted by dwarves and grew up hating elves

[woven flint]

Dwarves and Elves in 5e don't actually hate eachother lol

[crimson gulch]

racial hatred is such a shallow and over done trope, think harder

[hidden spindle]

Human and Human

[severe rampart]

How about goblins, everyone hates goblins

[woven flint]

As a matter of fact, due to where Dwarves and Elves live, they don't interact much

[rugged hawk]

Goblins aren't a race, they're a nuisance

[woven flint]

Fantasy Racism isn't great, like, at all.

[crimson gulch]

how about Racial hatred is overdone no matter what races you are looking at

[upbeat marten]

Hey any Curse Of Strahd DMs here)??

[woven flint]

Racism is bad!!!!

[empty thicket]

i have a teammate goblin, i tell her "hey little companion" and stuff like that

[severe rampart]

Thanks Tokii, I totally didn't know that

[hidden spindle]

There is no racism if everyone's a species

[woven flint]

Love your Goblin friends and Gnomish brothers

[severe rampart]

Speciesm

Kids, don't be speciest

[naive cedar]

did dwarves and elves ever hate each other in dnd?

[woven flint]

Two species that hate eachother are Kobolds and Gnomes, but it's not for racist reasons, it's because a Gnome Deity trapped a Kobold king (who later became a god) in an infinite maze.

[rugged hawk]

Sure, you first. Go hug that in friendship.

[severe rampart]

I think it was moreso from other sources of media that portrayed dwarves and elves as enemies

[woven flint]

Never have

[severe rampart]

Oh my god did I fall for Dwarf vs Elf propaganda

[naive cedar]

yeah ik. but in dnd specifically as far as I recall they don’t have any animosity towards each other aside from exceptions like the drow and the duergar

[woven flint]

Yes.
Dwarves and Elves have literally no reason to hate eachother in D&D anyway lol

Dwarves just kinda mind their own buisness

[naive cedar]

yeah and elves just kind of view themselves as better than everyone

[knotty pasture]

Dwarves hate Goblins and Orcs way more than they hate Elves

[cobalt owl]

DvE is more of a wider fantasy thing anyway, and its a bit meh now

[crimson gulch]

treating any race like a monolith is not only bad writing/worldbuilding its just kinda lazy

[woven flint]

No true at all, actually

[knotty pasture]

Mountain Dwarves have a bloody history with Goblins after all

[rugged hawk]

That was the whole point of creating Evermeet, where 'filthy non-elves' aren't allowed.

[woven flint]

Drow might, but most elves don't view themselves as greater than others

[naive cedar]

admittedly I’m not super up to date on the lore

I need to read more 5e stuff lol

[woven flint]

That sounds like a High Elf issue to me

[severe rampart]

Characters with blindsight usually use echolocation to see, right? I think that's what someone told me here

[naive cedar]

New Year’s resolutions

[cobalt owl]

They use something, RAW nothing is actually established on a general level

[severe rampart]

Thanks for reminding me, I have accomplished 0 of my new year's resolutions

[naive cedar]

😭 sorry

[cobalt owl]

So you can have someone blinded and deafened and they'd still be able to see fine

[rugged hawk]

Also, Crown Wars 1-5. All due to elven arrogance.

[woven flint]

New Year, New ME!

I'm slightly worse ...

[severe rampart]

Okay well, I think I'll make that instead, a fighter who is blind using the blind fighting style, if that exists

[naive cedar]

yeah elves arent like, actively racist but they definitely have some degree of arrogance esp high elves

well except drow but that’s a different can of worms

[cobalt owl]

Blind fighting style exists. Again nothing is actually established on how they see while blind so do what you want

[severe rampart]

Yeah I think I want my character to need to constantly shout to fight enemies

[woven flint]

Elves are indeed arrogant, but I think
Yeah, they outlive everyone.. it's kinda earned!

[stoic obsidian]

Hello Tokii the catdog/jk

[woven flint]

Don't bring me back to my childhood, miscreant!

[naive cedar]

yeah that’s what I meant. they dont have animosity towards other races, they just think they’re better because they’re immortal

[stoic obsidian]

I am always living my childhood

[woven flint]

Elves aren't immortal, they have a finite lifespan, it's just longer than everyone else's (apart from dragons and other creatures of the sort)

[stoic obsidian]

Nah, I say they only earned a cupcake

[woven flint]

Elves typically live up to 750 years in D&D

[naive cedar]

Dont they technically not “die” but go off to a different plane or something?

[uncut zenith]

Nope

[naive cedar]

or am I mixing up dnd and lotr again

[stoic obsidian]

Tbh elves out living people sound pretty sad, for their non elves pals won’t be around long

[severe rampart]

My brain is trying to understand

[uncut zenith]

That’s pretty much the entire overarching plot of Frieren lol

[lone whale]

Doing an Elden ring dnd campaign with my friends, I’m having fun as a barbarian

[severe rampart]

Thank you Lonfi

[naive cedar]

the Frieren dilemma

[naive cedar]

omg I didn’t even see this comment

[uncut zenith]

That’s also part of the reason a lot of fantasy settings have elves stick with elves

[stoic obsidian]

More like immortality with humanity dilemma

[wintry spindle]

I mean it makes sense in term of elf lifespan elves would have more bonds with other elves since they live as long as them

[severe rampart]

For an elf, ten years isn't nearly enough time to know someone

[woven flint]

Elves in D&D are definitely more friendly than Elves in most other media, I'll say

"Elves tended to make strong and uplifting friends. Most elves loved simple joys such as dancing, singing, footraces, or contests of skill. They had a natural aversion to that which they saw as uninteresting tasks and were fun-loving by nature. However, despite how unpleasant some things such as war could be, elves became grimly serious if a threat to their friends, family, or livelihood made such actions necessary."

[hot marlin]

I used to think that but... We've all outlived our first pets. I've outlived a lot of dogs and cats and mice. I still have new pets

[naive cedar]

this is actually a really good point

[wintry spindle]

Also the brain can only store so much memories

[stoic obsidian]

Yet those memories are still their, and when those fade it will hurt

[uncut zenith]

Idk how I feel about comparing friends and family to pets, but I know some people really treat their pets like other people

[stoic obsidian]

Immortality it a lot of hellos, and goodbyes to a point

[hot marlin]

Sure, I've forgotten just about everything about my first few dogs, but it's really not a big deal

[naive cedar]

I consider my pets my friends but a different type of friend if that makes sense

[hot marlin]

Honestly, my current cat is more important to me than everyone in my family

[wintry spindle]

I like the idea of immortals still being alive is also scary. Especially when they are a warrior. They have been alive for 200+ years and are stil alive

[stoic obsidian]

Because you form a bond with them

[naive cedar]

I like the idea of the 30 year old level 10 human laughing at the 300 year old level 10 elf

[severe rampart]

Give a man mortality he will pray for more time, give a man immortality he will pray for death

[uncut zenith]

I’m just saying comparing the dynamic between two humanoids to that of a human and their pet feels a little… weird to me

[wintry spindle]

Yeah but also how in the WItcher universe, no witcher has ever died to old age

[stoic obsidian]

Tbh is it logical to compare an elf to a human?

[wintry spindle]

So seeing a 100 year old + witcher is crazy because that means they have survived that long

[stoic obsidian]

Maybe it not the immortality, but how long and if it natural or supernatural

[woven flint]

I'm looking more into Elves in D&D and, honestly, I don't get how you people are like "they're snooty"
They're literally the most chill and free fellas I've read about species wise

It's definitely other media's clouding perception of them

[wintry spindle]

depends on the elf

[woven flint]

Drow are TOTALLY friendly.

[rugged hawk]

Maybe they should open Evermeet, then

[naive cedar]

drow are just funny little guys

[potent siren]

drow are just chilling down there below the ground, no problems

[naive cedar]

drow just really, really, really like spiders

[stoic obsidian]

What about high elves?

[rugged hawk]

If that was true, no one would have a problem with them. But they don't stay down there and keep coming up to bother everyone else.

[woven flint]

"Elves did not distinguish between males and females and so did not discriminate based on gender. Males and females were treated equally in all areas, neither was excluded from anything, and they achieved power and fame in equal measure, apart from a tendency for more women in positions of authority, with a historically greater number of queens than kings. Unlike some other societies, they understood the value and potential of women"
Holy BASED

[wintry spindle]

High elf lore is so confusing tbh

[olive wasp]

I’m guaranteeing that wood elves are most friendly

[naive cedar]

Hence why I am a forever Elf stan

[potent siren]

Menzoberranzan? Sounds like a great place for a vacation!

[rugged hawk]

iunno man, sounds like something a THIRD SON would say

[wintry spindle]

I like playing humans sometimes because it's fun being a 30 year old guy with a sword facing down magical people

[woven flint]

Fun in the sun!
Wait a damn moment...
THAT'S a pit to hell!!!

[naive cedar]

they certainly have the aura

[stoic obsidian]

How about being a playdough(reflavoured Plasmoid) pummeling elder brains with your goo

[mystic crystal]

Humans are the superior race. If we weren’t why would we get the free feat?

[woven flint]

Okay, I read more
Dwarves and Elves, while, in D&D, have no hatred for eachother, they have a hard time understanding eachother due to lifestyles, but can put differences aside

[stoic obsidian]

Dwelves anyone

[wintry spindle]

V Humans be eatin good

[woven flint]

"Dwarves and elves generally had a different problem in forming relationships. Dwarves favored hard work whereas elves generally enjoyed relaxation. Dwarves enjoyed carving homes from the rock and engineering unswerving straight lines, while elves preferred more natural, flowing shapes. Dwarves and elves could form strong bonds of friendship, but only when both agreed to overlook each other's differences."

[potent siren]

Thats a funny way to spell "Humans"

[wintry spindle]

Dwarf Elves are real

they look weird

[naive cedar]

arent dwarves a type of elf in elder scrolls

[mystic crystal]

I feel like that’s fake news buddy

[woven flint]

Let me introduce:
Elarf's

[severe rampart]

The bald things that have long beards?

[wintry spindle]

Everything is an elf in elder scrolls

[naive cedar]

what about elnomes

[woven flint]

Gnelves?

[wintry spindle]

yes

[potent siren]

Gnoves!

[naive cedar]

ngl I love the elder scrolls version of elves because they look so weird

[stoic obsidian]

How about Tabigons?

[severe rampart]

"a dwelf is a combination of a dwarf and an elf's worst qualities"

So, arrogant and aggresive? Yeah buddy that's humans

[wintry spindle]

Orcs are elves in the elder scrolls

[naive cedar]

they are yeah

[mystic crystal]

Orcs are orcs? 🤨

[uncut zenith]

Yeah, if it’s not a Nord, Breton, Khajiit, Argonian, or Redguard, it’s some variation of elf in ES

[woven flint]

Lmao
In D&D lore, elves regard humans with fear and respect 💀 😭

[stoic obsidian]

What would a tiefling elf hybrid look like

[naive cedar]

orcs being a kind of elf wasn’t invented by elder scrolls though but I don’t recall who did it first

[wintry spindle]

I think Kahjit and Agonian are the only non human non elf thing

Tiefling dominant genes

[naive cedar]

correct. they are beastmen

[woven flint]

I mean, Tieflings can be any species now.

Anyone can be plane touched.

[naive cedar]

tbh I assume that tieflings can be any species and it’s the demonic heritage that is the most important

[stoic obsidian]

How about a mimic?

[uncut zenith]

I mean, that’s true even in LOTR. Orcs in LOTR originated from elves who were corrupted by Morgoth

[naive cedar]

RIGHT thank you

[woven flint]

Plane Touched is more in reference/regards to humanoid creatures from my understanding

[stoic obsidian]

How about Aasimar Tiefling

[woven flint]

I think something like tat exists, but I forgot the name lol

[naive cedar]

I thought tieflings, originally, were humanoids who were either plane touched or the children of plane touched people?

[woven flint]

We do have Zariel, a Fallen Celestial become Fiend, so...

[severe rampart]

Is there something in DnD that's similar to Koh, The Face Stealer from Avatar?

[woven flint]

Yes, In D&D Humanoid is a general term for Human-like species

[naive cedar]

yeah ik

[woven flint]

So, Fey and other creatures of the sort most likely can't or haven't been seen as plane touched individuals

Elves are on that fine line of being humanoid enough to be effected

[naive cedar]

I believe elves are humanoids, but they have fey ancestry or something

[woven flint]

Yes. Hence why I said humanoid enough

They aren't as Fey as other Fey 🧐

[rugged hawk]

Hmm, just realized I can become a Killer Whale. Now I regret not taking Levitate.

Fly -> Killer Whale -> SPLAT under 6.6 - 8.8 tons of fish

[woven flint]

AHA!
I found something that may interest you!
@stoic obsidian
Fey'ri are the Offspring of Elves and Half Fiends!

[severe rampart]

I think Dyno is on a lunch break

[woven flint]

Now to see if there's anything born under the union of celestials and Fiends in D&D lore 🤔

No, apparently they cannot reproduce with one another

[nova trellis]

And even then, Khajit still has some controversy since certain khajit breeds look pretty darn similar to wood elves and even their religion says elves are just sadder khajits

[uncut zenith]

Makes sense imo. They’re the physical embodiment of two diametrically opposed planes/types of energy

[nova trellis]

Argonians definitely have no connection tho.

[woven flint]

I feel bad for Argonians

None of the things that happened to them were deserved at all 😭

[uncut zenith]

Just a gentle reminder that mods are gonna come bring the hammer down if we talk just about ES

[hot marlin]

There was a monster in 3.5's monster manual 3 or 4 that had that backstory

[hot marlin]

As playable? Yes. But outside of playable things, the list of intelligent species that are neither men nor mer is longer than the list of mer and men

[nova trellis]

Eh, Argonians are eating pretty good. They ransacked Morrowind. Made Daedra run back into their portals during the oblivion crisis and they have full control of their providence.

[umbral girder]

Imagine the Daedra discovering Avernus and making Blood War 2

[severe rampart]

Are necromancers viable early levels?

[woven flint]

Aren't Daedra like... way stronger than the Archdevils?

[uncut zenith]

Wouldn’t they theoretically just be joining an ongoing war? Cuz the Blood War has (thankfully) never ended

[umbral girder]

The Daedric Princes? A few

Tiamat and Asmodeus would shrug them off most likely

[hot marlin]

Sometimes a war is called the second despite the fact that the first one has not technically ended yet. It can happen.

[nova trellis]

The lesser Daedra, like, the real low wrung dudes are at base, truly immortal. Kill 1, they poof back into oblivion

[umbral girder]

Except for maybe Sheogorath. He could give Asmodeus a run for his money.

That’s Chaos vs Law right there

[woven flint]

Sheo my goat
Sheogoatrath

[minor cargo]

Do you mean just focusing on necromancy spells? Because yeah, totally works - but some variety will go a long way!

If you want to summon things, animate dead is the lowest level one - so double check that spell.

[severe rampart]

I heard animate dead only gets good when it starts to summon Thralls

[uncut zenith]

It’s also worth remembering that it’s viable if you’re not playing in a campaign that’s loaded with undead

[umbral girder]

“A new hand touches the beacon”
unfortunately that hand was Zariel

[uncut zenith]

And undead is iirc one of the biggest monster categories in the game. Might be second only to monstrosities.

[unkempt roost]

The daedric princes weren't dreadfully powerful

[umbral girder]

Yeah there is so much undead in DnD

[woven flint]

Do we think in the Realms the Daedra might gain more followers? 🤔

[unkempt roost]

Given that they're pretty limited to their own planes of Oblivion

[umbral girder]

Last I checked they were able to manipulate multiverses

[unkempt roost]

The ones that they die in

[umbral girder]

Alduin ending numerous planes of reality and timelines for them is a thing after all.

[unkempt roost]

He eats them too

[woven flint]

I believe Alduin would destroy Tiamat, personally

[umbral girder]

Nah Alduin hasn’t faced full powered Tiamat

[woven flint]

I'm biased, I love him

[uncut zenith]

Alduin got killed by a mortal. Tiamat can’t be

[umbral girder]

Well he wasn’t killed by a mortal. Just delayed again.

[rugged hawk]

Alduin's not actually all that strong, he's just effectively immortal, so he can rampage endlessly til everything's gone.

[hot marlin]

Alduin wasn't killed, and none of the people involved in Skyrim's last boss fight were mortals

[woven flint]

Yeah, Alduin isn't DEAD when you beat him lol

[umbral girder]

Main issue is Alduin is just a big fish in a small pond

Tiamat is in a lake with a LOT of big fishes.

[woven flint]

That Is true

[woven flint]

This is also true

[umbral girder]

She has proven to kill beings equal or even stronger than herself, and she was one of those who helped make the Infinite space of the Material Plane

Before it was shattered into new settings.

[woven flint]

The Dragonborn isn't "just some mortal"

[nova trellis]

Yes, the realms are infinitely large and the favors of the daedric princes are very useful.

[umbral girder]

Also biggest advantage for Tiamat, she has Legendary resistances and Alduin does not.

[woven flint]

The worldeater will always be my goat

[naive cedar]

argonians or dragonborn?

[woven flint]

Argonians are more comparable to Lizardfolk

[naive cedar]

true

[nova trellis]

Skyrim is kind of shite combat wise so characters like Alduin kinda look weaker then they really should be lol

[woven flint]

Also true

The fight against Alduin really should've shook sovereingaurd to its core.

[umbral girder]

Yeah Skyrim’s presentation doesn’t show the wacky power scale

[naive cedar]

tbf, tiamat is a goddess and as far as im aware alduin is just a very powerful dragon

[woven flint]

Alduin is a dragon with Multiversal feats lol

[nova trellis]

Really, Alduin should be like Darkeater Midir from Dark Souls 3 or (insert random Monster Hunter flagship dragon)

[umbral girder]

Tiamat is too

[woven flint]

Of course

[buoyant oar]

Alduin is the son of a God.

[woven flint]

But Alduin isn't merely just " A Strong Dragon"

[umbral girder]

She actively created the Material plane (with Bahamut) and its settings (Eberron, Dark Sun, etc) are after gods broke it

[woven flint]

I can imagine Bahamut and Parthanaax having tea while Alduin and Tiamat plot lol

[naive cedar]

i havent played skyrim in a while

[umbral girder]

While Alduin has the power to eventually end a plane of reality, Tiamat has the power to just make one.

[hot marlin]

You guys are comparing apples and oranges. Tiamat and Alduin can't fight because one is a computer program and the other a character sheet.

[woven flint]

Screw making Alduin fight Tiamat, let's have them work together

[umbral girder]

They would totally not get along

[hot marlin]

Alduin can't roll dice, Tiamat can't play Skyrim.

[woven flint]

In my imagination

[umbral girder]

Both of their Egos is too high.

[naive cedar]

im pretty sure tiamat is still more powerful than alduin in universe, however i do agree that the alduin fight is pretty underwhelming lol (although skyrim doesnt have great combat to begin with)

[umbral girder]

Plus he would end the Material plane and Tiamat is actively protective of the Material plane

Like there is a module where this happens with Tiamat helping heroes because the Material plane is in danger.

[buoyant oar]

If a character like Alduin appeared in a published DnD setting he would be a lot like Melauthaur and Gauwervyndhal

[naive cedar]

bahamut and parthanaax would be more likely to team up

[umbral girder]

Tiamat would actively oppose someone like Alduin

[nova trellis]

Hot take: I think Morrowind has better combat. You could jump and attack, hold attacks, hold attacks in different directions and actually strafe.

[woven flint]

Of course Tiamat is stronger most definitely

[rough basalt]

Team up? Maybe, maybe not.
Paarthunax would likely take orders from Bahamut.

[woven flint]

But I will not stand for Alduin slander, he's still pretty powerful

[naive cedar]

honestly? you're correct. morrowind's combat is more annoying but considering the limitations of the time theres more too it than skyrim combat

[uncut zenith]

Yeah neither of them are good team players

[naive cedar]

but i prefer morrowind anyways

[buoyant oar]

Non dnd take. Paarthunax is too dangerous to be left alive. Delphine is right.

[hot marlin]

Dangerous to whom? Not to me

[naive cedar]

i disagree strongly but i will respect your opinion

[austere lynx]

so.. just heard a rumor a new edition is coming. Fact Check?

[rugged hawk]

She's right, but the way she goes about trying to compel you to do it is entirely wrong

[nova trellis]

Honestly, thats what gets my goat. Theres a decent sandbox to build on and Bethasda simply....doesn't.

[rough basalt]

Cause they don't need to

[hot marlin]

If we start killing people because of the potential danger they might pose if something, we're not stopping until we kill every living being

[umbral girder]

Honestly it’s fair. Just because he is safe now doesn’t mean the future. And there is no promise of a dragon born in the future being able to stop him.

[rough basalt]

Just release skyrim again.
10 skymillion more dollars

[buoyant oar]

If paarthunax is only peaceful through great effort and he must resist day in and day out to not be like how he was. He is just a ticking time bomb.

[umbral girder]

He even says “he is always on the brink of turning to his old ways”

[buoyant oar]

Especially with other dragons under him.

[naive cedar]

Skyrim is a fun game especially to revisit in this modern era of AAA studios just not even trying but i agree that its underwhelming. morrowind and daggerfall are the best elder scrolls games

anyways we should probably go back to dnd

[minor cargo]

Sorry I don’t think I follow. What do you mean by thrall?

The spell itself creates an undead that’s under your command for 24 hours.

[nova trellis]

Personally, I think we should copy the mutant registration act from X-Men and apply that to all magically inclined people.

[nova trellis]

Free campaign idea 💡

[hot marlin]

Everyone is a ticking time bomb. Everyone risks going crazy and start murdering people.

You deal with things when they happen, not in anticipation

[woven flint]

You leave my sweet prince alone >:[

[buoyant oar]

Also paarthunax hasn't been punished for his crimes he DID commit in the past.

[rough basalt]

Yeah, but there's a difference between anger most people let go, and an innate will to dominate life that's constantly pushing you to action.

[umbral girder]

The main thing is, the only thing that can ever prevent him from coming back is the Last Dragonborn. Who is, well, the Last one.

[naive cedar]

fr leave my dragon voiced by mario alone

[buoyant oar]

So like. Being lonely ain't a punishment for being a general to a world ender

[hot marlin]

Paarthunax committed no crime, he was obeying his king, then his goddess. And punishment is for children, not for adults and certainly not for dragons

[umbral girder]

He very much committed a lot of crimes

[woven flint]

But Paarthunax also regrets his crimes and actively aids the dragonborn in fighting Alduin

[hot marlin]

Everything he did was perfectly legal.

[umbral girder]

He even says he committed the evils himself in game

[buoyant oar]

"I was only following orders." Ain't the defense you think it is

[hot marlin]

Evils and crimes are not the same thing.

[woven flint]

I see him as an old man on his last leg who regrets helping create a monster

[naive cedar]

i mean this is the classic debate of "can someone be redeemed for previous evil acts by doing good deeds in the present"

[nova trellis]

What gets me about this is Delphin threatening to cut access to the blades to the DRAGONBORN. No, Delphine, I'm YOUR boss and will cut YOU out.

[umbral girder]

Like if you tell him about the order to kill him Paarth says “no that’s is an understandable response.”

[hot marlin]

Who cares about redemption or what he did before? He's not doing it now, that's good enough

[naive cedar]

its not as simple as "I was just following orders", he actively regrets his actions and wants to help the dragonborn

[nova trellis]

Telling me to choice between Paarth or the blades. Delphine can piss off is my answer.

[woven flint]

Paarthunaax has also lived the equivalent of multiple human lifetimes of regret and solitude as well

[hot marlin]

The concept of crimes only exists under a legal definition. Which system of law are we talking about? Who wrote those laws? Who gets to enforce them? What is the procedure? Under whose legislation?

[uncut zenith]

Man I can’t wait for the holidays to be over so I can get my D&D group started again

[woven flint]

Also, yeah, Dragons aren't persecutable under mankind, the only individual who has a right to judge Paarthunaax is the Dragonborn

[buoyant oar]

Yeah. Morality ain't black and white. Paarthunax is an example DMs should use in their games as sell very tough questions. Paarthunax, exists as a moral dilemma if evils can go unpunished because a villain simply repents, evil can and will flourish. But who values the sincerity of that attonment.

[nova trellis]

You should threaten them with fruit cake.

[naive cedar]

lol do people even eat fruit cake anymore? ive never seen one irl

[woven flint]

He's the sweetest old man

[hot marlin]

See, I disagree with the part about "if evils can go unpunished because a villain simply repents, evil can and will flourish". I do not believe that is true. Punishment serves no purpose except a performance.

[severe rampart]

Oh my god Morality is brought up again

All yours, Incubus

[woven flint]

Chadcubus at it again 😎

[stoic obsidian]

Interesting

[hot marlin]

All of human history has proven this: Punishment is nothing but a childish performance that serves no purpose save some primitive need to spread more harm in response to harm

[nova trellis]

See, us having this discussion is a good example of Bethasda actually having good writing once in a while.

[buoyant oar]

Melkor of the Lord of the rings likes this take. He feins repentance and then destroys that which is sacred.

[nova trellis]

Me meming aside, I think all the writing involving Paarth is really quality.

[severe rampart]

So what do you think should happen to those who do commit evil?

[buoyant oar]

His punishment isn't performative.

[hot marlin]

Depends on the circumstance.

[naive cedar]

honestly thats one of the reasons i like paarthurnax so much. there arent a lot of well written characters in skyrim but hes one of the major exceptions

[severe rampart]

Let's say, Mass Murder

[hot marlin]

Depends on the circumstance.

[woven flint]

Killing Paarthunaax doesn't SOLVE any issues though, it's not a punishment, it's just DEATH

[severe rampart]

Was done solely for the intent of terror and making their name known

[hot marlin]

Containment, therapy, exile.

[civic forge]

I made a DnD spell combos guide. Hope you enjoy it!

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1L1FXzQa7JVqDt797DjNINdS5T2mQMrVh/view?usp=sharing

[severe rampart]

Right, and what if this action results in outrage by families of those killed by the man?

[hot marlin]

Their problem

[uncut zenith]

There are actually tons of studies that have proven that rehabilitation and reintegration are more effective than punishment

[severe rampart]

So do you believe in redemption, even when you were evil?

[civic forge]

It was originally written in Portuguese. As a non-native English speaker, I would appreciate it if you could let me know if any part of the text sounds unnatural.

[woven flint]

I believe Paarthunaax's deeds of helping the dragonborn definitely is part of his rehabilitation efforts

[uncut zenith]

I’d recommend posting this in #dnd-advertisements

[hot marlin]

I don't believe in redemption because redemption is a religious concept. I do not believe those who have done bad are "tainted" by it in some way. As far as I care "not doing it again" is good enough for me

[buoyant oar]

Also Paarthunax directly compares himself as a worthy successor to Alduin after the MQ. Wishing for other Dovah to come to bow before him and his Way of the Voice.

[hot marlin]

Well yeah, that's good. More dragons following the way of the voice means less dragons rampaging around

[severe rampart]

I somewhat agree, but as you said, depends on the circumstances

[rough basalt]

As long as Paarthunax wants to stay good, it'll work.
But if he wants to dominate mankind again, all he's gotta do is wait until LD is dead.

[severe rampart]

I do not trust most people who have committed a certain type of crime that I will not say so I do not get warned by mods

[buoyant oar]

Well. Not just the way. His way.

"They will come to know the rightness of my Thu'um. By willing ear or no they will come. Fare thee well Dovahkiin."

[rough basalt]

Cause while mortals can take a dragon out of commission, they don't have Dragonrend like the ancient mortals did.

And Dragons in-world aren't all gonna be idiots who come down and let themselves die.

[hot marlin]

Well yeah, his Thu'um does have rightness and they will come to know it. He's the one who has survived the longest, the one with the most knowledge and greatest mastery.

[timid anvil]

coughs #non-dnd-topics

[hot marlin]

Yeah, this has gone a bit too off-topic

To get back to D&D, I find things explicitely designed to be moral dilemmas to be a bad idea generally

Because they come from the idea that the characters absolutely want to do the "right thing". But characters are motivated by plenty of things outside morality

[fickle heart]

I'm assuming this is mostly in reference to "gotcha" moral dilemmas?

[hot marlin]

Yes. The greatest and most tasteless classic of that genre being the baby orc dilemma

[fickle heart]

Makes sense, yeah. I'm fond of moral dilemmas, but not very fond of "hehe, you look bad and failed either way, and you should feel bad" ones.

[hot marlin]

Moreover, I don't think a DM should try to create moral dilemmas, I think a DM should simply create the situations that are the logical continuation of the previous events. Moral dilemmas are often extremely artificial in nature

[fickle heart]

Though, I don't necessarily think the baby orc one (assuming we're thinking of the same thing) is an "actual" moral dilemma because it's so far removed from immediate impact.

[buoyant oar]

It's moral dilemmas like the ones presented in Planescape Torment that do it for me. Not gotcha ones. But ones that don't have clear answers.

[hot marlin]

The baby orc dilemma is a dilemma where the PCs, after slaughtering orcs, find a baby orc. It is often presented as such:
Killing the baby is evil
Letting the baby be to grow up to be evil is also evil
Often people have tried to find a third solution, called "Give the baby orc to a good church", but I find that to be the worst option due to how it reflects the history of children of colonized people being forced to grow up removed from their culture in church-run schools where they were starved and beaten half to death at best.

[minor cargo]

That… huh, that’s different than what I thought you meant by the “orc baby” problem. Hmm.

[hot marlin]

What did you think I meant?

[minor cargo]

“There an orc baby. As a group, we decide to not kill the baby.”

I had no idea there were people who consider the “if we let the baby live, it’ll be evil” option. That’s like… barely logical.

[buoyant oar]

Mostly from the days where in DND orcs were biologically and ontologically mostly evil

[golden schooner]

The orc baby dilemma is also specifically set after you’ve destroyed their entire tribe I believe

[hot marlin]

Sadly the orc baby dilemma was a real thing, meant and calculated to be a gotcha for the paladin

[minor cargo]

Yeah must be. But that’s pretty far removed from my current and recent experiences. Hence my confusion. But yeah. Go on. I’m on the same page now.

[hot marlin]

And yes, the dominating wisdom of the time was "give the baby to a church" which I find honestly worse than just killing the baby. At least when you kill the baby, you know what you're doing.

[woven flint]

"I'll raise it myself!"

[tribal mesa]

Does it make sense for the Raven Queen to want a reborn warlock to sacrifice himself if the rest of the party is in danger? Since he already lived his fate but they haven’t?

[hot marlin]

Why would it not make sense?

[uncut zenith]

I mean, if the person who is literally in charge of keeping track of your fate says time’s up, who are you to argue?

[molten pumice]

I actually think my life would be tangibly better if shortswords had nick and scimitars had vex.

[buoyant oar]

Only in very rare instances does arguing with Divine beings work out for the not divine being.

[golden schooner]

Also, having your only developed good religion be 1400’s Catholicism is so incredibly boring to me. Can we not come up with anything better?

[marble tangle]

I’m joining a DnD club at school when I got back to school

[timid anvil]

Flavor is free!

[halcyon forum]

i get the whole problematic aspect of doing this, but once you are in the situation, I really dont see how killing is more moral than giving the baby a shot at a life.

assuming there are no friendly orc tribes around

[molten pumice]

Yeah, but I like slashing damage far more than piercing

[buoyant oar]

The only way I could potentially spin it is if you see the future where the Orc living objectively has a bad outcome. Good for books not so good for DnD.

[woven flint]

They're both a d6 weapon, to be completely blunt, I dunno why it'd be better one way or another lol

[gentle hemlock]

So how do I promote my dnd server?

[molten pumice]

Even Slasher appeals to me more as a feat than piercer

[hot marlin]

A shot at life is one thing. A life under the brutality of a church that will punish the child just for existing or babbling a word in its native language, at the mercy of priests, considering the history with priests and children, and the cultural destruction and genocidal mechanics implied by the action?

[severe rampart]

Oh how it would feel to be in a school with actual clubs and extra curriculars, alas I am in a country with a 0.001% of the population knowing about DnD, which isn't an exaggeration

[halcyon forum]

okay but that does assume that the church will act the same as many IRL historical churches

[hot marlin]

It's the ignorance implied by the act that I find revolting.

[timid anvil]

Check out #find-a-game on how to use our looking for x channels. We have #looking-for-community specifically for servers

[marble tangle]

👍

[woven flint]

Yeah, to be fair, D&D doesn't have to reflect real life atrocities

[gentle hemlock]

Ty

[naive cedar]

i mean, it would depend on the setting, but i would also be wary of giving a baby of a stereotypically "evil" race to a church based on real life events. that being said it depends on how based on real life religions the church in this setting is

[uncut zenith]

This is implying that all churches in a D&D campaign following the often problematic patterns that many real world organizations did. On the other hand, you have things like the Air Temple where Aang was raised in Avatar, where he ultimately had a happy life.

[lyric viper]

Hmm. On a similar moral dilemma, one thing I liked from one game was early on there was a choice were you could help someone who was certainly going to die horribly, after someone else had tied them up and left them in retribution.
If you don't free them- they will be eaten alive. Horribly.
If you do... they go on to kill and rob someone else for their boots and belongings.

But in the moment, without knowing that- was it immoral to save them?

[buoyant oar]

That is a problem with those people being unable to separate their Lived experiences with fantasy. Tbh

[lyric viper]

Whhoo folk

[halcyon forum]

you got a ton of choice

[lyric viper]

Lets not get into discussing real life religions

[severe rampart]

I mean no, there's no way you could have known they'd commit those atrocities

[timid anvil]

Was gonna say we are getting awfully close to discussions about real life religions which is against server rules

[naive cedar]

alright thats fair

[golden schooner]

Sorry about that

[lyric viper]

We get it, there is def elements in the game, but we'd rather not get into heated discussions about thing very personal to very real people.

[hot marlin]

Which would be fine. If the baby orc was an air nomad. People have the right to grow up in their own culture. Giving a child to a different culture to be raised "the right way" is one of the mechanics of cultural genocide

[halcyon forum]

I thought is was only if we discuss the religions itself? like how are we supposed to talk about DnD faiths if we cant mention their inspiration?

[minor cargo]

I think it’s safe to say that the way a game portrays religion says a bit about how the DM views religion. Which is kind of a nothing burger lol because of course they do!

But yeah. I don’t think it’s a far reach that some players would assume some churches have some good hearted people.

[lyric viper]

Right! So, yes, replaying again it feels like 'Oh man, I should let you die' but at the same time- that's the wrong choice in that moment

[hot marlin]

Whether or not they're good hearted does not matter. It is still cultural genocide, whether it's done by good or evil people.

[halcyon forum]

if you dont know they were gonna kill someone after you free them, then the moral choice is easy. hindsight cant count

[nova trellis]

I will say, unlike our world. At least with planescape and forgotten realms. Gods do have a tangible reach and voice. Its factual people get power from the gods. So it would be pretty safe to assume good aligned churches are on average good places.

[uncut zenith]

Especially if the church is dedicated to a good god. Players are more likely to hand an orphan over to the clergy of Pelor than to those of Asmodeus (assuming the party isn’t evil themselves)

[halcyon forum]

right, but you cant save the culture in the scenario. they are already dead.

[lyric viper]

This is the tough element, but if getting into a discussion of why giving a child to a church might be bad and then naming specific faiths that's... a tough discussion. Certainly one can look into- and an important one to!. But could very easily derail in to what specific faiths should and shouldn't do and debates over doctrine, so on.

[nova trellis]

So, going back to that question of giving a Orc baby to a church. In the context of most DnD settings where good aligned godd do have a presence. Yeah, I would totally say giving a baby to a church is a good idea lol.

[hot marlin]

If you slaughtered every other orc in the camp... (First off, why? Was it a war camp? Why did they bring children to the war camp?), then you get the child and you give it back to other orcs

[halcyon forum]

I guess I didnt see it as people saying: X religion treated these people horrible and more like: the institutions of X religion treated these people horribly.

[buoyant oar]

You are adding waaaaay to many layers to the hypothetical friendo

Every situation is different and is built upon the context of the specific instances and the comfort levels of the actual players at the table.

[hot marlin]

Though yeah, it's true, depends on too many things

[halcyon forum]

if there are friendly orc groups around, 100% give the child to them. the scenario assumes the orcs in the camp were indeed evil individuals, for what its worth

[lyric viper]

I guess overall the dilemma boils down to if you've come across a child of a sapient people you've killed the parents off (giants, dragons, kobolds, bandits, so on)... That's a heavy moment.

[minor cargo]

I dunno, man. Like… you’re making an assumption that they wouldn’t try to help bring this baby closer to their own people and customs? Like during the Vietnam war, refugees in Canada were tried to be placed with other Vietnamese refugees. They shared a little culture but I don’t think it’s fair or even honest to call this cultural genocide. The genocide was happening BEFORE this - and it wasn’t just cultural.

If I can try to tamp this back down, earlier you said this in a different context - but I think it’s relevant.

Depends on the context.

#dnd-discussion message

[nova trellis]

I guess baby stew is out of the question.

[hot marlin]

I'd say you give it back to the orcs even if they are evil.

[severe rampart]

Ah, hello Diogenes, I was wondering where you were when Plato and Socrates were here discussing this dilemma

[woven flint]

Alternatively, try to communicate with the Orcs and help them resolve their issues and try to do more good

[hot marlin]

It's true. I was referring to the usual version of the orc baby dilemma I have seen, but there are variables

[golden schooner]

I also think it depends on how homogenous orcs are in your setting. If we assume this group of orcs is the same as every other then it’s different than a world where orcs can be really different

[uncut zenith]

Yeah, this all kinda leads back to the greater issue in D&D (and the fantasy genre as a whole) of monolithic races

[lyric viper]

It also reminds me of the also very... HMMMM, lore in older editions where Crystal Dragons would steal eggs of white dragons in order to 'raise them right'.

[halcyon forum]

IDK, I get that culture is important to preserve but I wouldnt want to give a child to bunch of bandits and murderers

[naive cedar]

wait WHAT I don’t remember that. which edition was this?

[buoyant oar]

It also depends on many other things that are setting dependant. Are they just a people. Or are they fixed into a box. Neither option is more correct than the other one.

[uncut zenith]

I may be wrong (and I sure hope I am), but I think that’s still true as of Fizban’s

[cursive fjord]

Hey guys im working on a Roll20 character sheet and im just trying to figure out how to add my Int Modifier to my Wisdom skills, is there an easy way to do that or do I need to do it manually?

[halcyon forum]

like, if one orc group is evil enough to justify killing them, which is not actually easy to justify, even though killing is pretty casual in dnd since its a violence simulator, then I dont think one can justify giving an innocent child to a group with similar issues

[lyric viper]

Fraid so. True since 2e.

[hot marlin]

Which version of the sheet are you using? The new one or the old one?

[minor cargo]

If you’re using the 5E sheet that’s built in, I believe you can go to the attributes (gear icon) and force the sheet to change it.

[cursive fjord]

I assume the old one, it will not let me add 2024 spells. I am not the DM.

[hot marlin]

Well, I would argue that personally I did not kill the orc because they were evil, I did not know nor care about the orc's alignment. I killed them because there were plot reaasons to kill them

[molten pumice]

I greatly dislike the idea of needing a race in fantasy race that exists purely to be an evil entity you can kill without having to think. Any species smart enough to put on clothes and make tools/weapons is smart enough to be treated as a species of individuals. If you slaughter a camp of Orc Raiders, it should be because they're Raiders, not because they're Orcs, and if they have orcs there who are hostages, those orcs should be treated as a separate group from their captors

[uncut zenith]

Yeah, the monolithic race is something D&D has been shifting away from

Thankfully

[lyric viper]

It's at least not implied to be intentionally to raise them right or to steal them. Just that they will raise them.

[halcyon forum]

right, and if your setting has that kind of nuance, there are usually non-raider groups around that can take care of a child

[golden schooner]

Yes, and I would agree with that in a current setting, but I think in the context of this scenario all orcs are monolithically evil

[cursive fjord]

Thank you that got me where I needed to go, much appricated it. Now to wait for my dm to see if they can update the sheet itself so I can add the 2024 version of spells

[halcyon forum]

IDK, I rarely play characters who just go in an kill because of the plot. There usually tends to be a justification of some kind, or assumptions (which sometimes turn out to be wrong)

[hollow grotto]

Hey guys I’m new to DnD

[hot marlin]

Yes there is a justification, that justification is part of the plot, that's what I mean

[halcyon forum]

right, its not much of a dilemma if there are friendly orcs around

[hot marlin]

But that justification is not "they're evil". There are plenty of evil things, you don't kill them all

[cursive fjord]

Man I wish Paladins could Range smite, I wanna make a Paladin/Ranger

[halcyon forum]

I mean the day only has 24 hours

gotta do other stuff sometimes. can be killing evil beings all the time

[hot marlin]

And moreover, again, there are no more ways to detect alignment in 5e so you don't actually know

[uncut zenith]

Yeah, I thought it was at least a plot hook that mentioned a crystal dragon who was raising a white dragon wyrmling or something. But it wasn’t explicitly stating that crystal dragons abduct white dragon wyrmlings or eggs to raise them “the right way”.

[buoyant oar]

When it comes to PC options I am big on them not being monolithic. But when it is a monster only thing in a specific setting. Like Gnolls in the Realms. Those are objectively evil creatures. I care less about it.

But the Gnolls of the Realms are wholly different than say Gnolls of Eberron. I am willing to take a setting over the general rule.

[glass granite]

They can do thrown smites in 2024 rules

[halcyon forum]

pretty sure the orc baby dilemma doesnt work in 5e period.

[cursive fjord]

They can? Because its a spell and says weapon attack instead of melee?

[halcyon forum]

because it doesnt assume orcs are generally evil anymore

[hot marlin]

Indeed. And to be completely fair it didn't work back then either

[glass granite]

Because it says it’s a weapon attack with a melee weapon, instead of a weapon melee attack

[cursive fjord]

Interesting Paladin throwing handaxes sound kinda cool

[lyric viper]

Crystal dragons' connection to the radiant forces of the Positive Plane fosters a nurturing, optimistic attitude in most of these dragons. They sometimes adopt the abandoned eggs or hatchlings of other dragons; many a white wyrmling has been raised in the caring environment of a crystal dragon's lair.
-Fizban's 5e

White dragons and crystal dragons sometimes come into conflict. Crystal dragons have been known to make off with white dragon eggs, possibly to foster the white wyrmlings and help them grow into friendlier dragons than they would otherwise become.
-Monster Manual II 3.5

However, a rare crystal dragon will adopt a young white dragon, to teach it to be friendly.
Monstrous Manual AD&D 2e

More explicit in 3.5. 5e makes it sound a bit more like they're so friendly they'll raise even white dragons (who often share the same territory). Which is.. a bit better than 'Raise them right'.

[molten pumice]

The concept of a monolithically evil race is what I take issue with. The shortcut it provides is a shortcut that shouldn't be necessary for reasonable people. You can say the guys in the villain uniforms are villains just as easy as saying a given race in your world is the "villain race" and at this point in our real world it's an intentional, and I'll say very odd, choice to hold on to the specific fantasy of having a monolithic species/race you can exterminate without needing to look at the context of the situation.

[halcyon forum]

well yes and no. it works if you give some room for nuture beating nature, but you are right. if orcs are inherently evil, then killing the orc child is morally correct. (which is a good indicator that orcs being inherently evil is stupid)

[molten pumice]

It's just as easy to say "bandits hijacked the train" as it is to say "goblins hijacked the train" and even if it's important that these bandits are goblins it's icky to have all the goblins in your world be bandits

[rough basalt]

I think it's fine having a monolithic thing as long as the intention is that they're not people and it's not some irl comparison thing.

[celest ether]

Hi, I realized I roleplay druids as clerics because I don't like the vage nature worship.

I truly don't get the druid flavor

[halcyon forum]

I am sometimes surprised how often I see 3e lore and very early 5e lore regressing on things in 2e lore.

[celest ether]

Like I either like them as nature clerics or as nature witches

[jovial shadow]

Goblins are evil. Nothing icky there except their existence.

[celest ether]

Druids in 5e are a too vage concept.

[halcyon forum]

sigh

[lyric viper]

Which you can do in your games. Make them malevolent spirits, manifestations of cruel mischief rather than say.... people.

[molten pumice]

Yeah, if all your wolves are blood thirsty instinct driven sheep killers then have savage wolves, wolves aren't people, but if you have bipedal wolf people who can talk and wear clothes and you treat them narratively as if they exist exclusively to be deer hunting monsters, it's a weird way to be about your fantasies.

[halcyon forum]

I think this only works with beings who dont have children. like demons and devils appear fully formed

[lyric viper]

Which they are in D&D lore. People with free will, culture, differences, so on.

[hot marlin]

I'd go a bit further: Even malevolent spirits are people. Even malevolent spirits have culture, individuality and desires.

[buoyant oar]

"Drow in the realms are bad because they follow lolth."

"Gnolls in the realms are literally the spawn of a Demon lord. And exists solely to satiate his hunger."

These are different

[celest ether]

I love monster goblins and also human like goblins. I think both are fine. Like I feel it's nice to have actual mosnters that look humanoid sometimes. Like the demons from Frieren

[molten pumice]

And I'm not even against mischievous spirits that spawn in from negativity and just so happen to be vaguely adult man shaped. Anything that reproduces and gets dressed in the morning is effectively a human though

[rough basalt]

I'm more so talking a Frieren demon sort of situation where something is a predator that evolved to be able to look and mimic people behavior in order to hunt its prey efficiently.

[lyric viper]

Yeah, you need to make them actual spirits and manifestations of concepts/ideas. Bit more fairytale, and mind how they appear.
Want evil mischief goblins? Make them like manifestations of the local people's ill intentions. Think too many bad things about your neighbour? A goblin will manifest and start messing with their cows.

[rough basalt]

That's a fun idea

[glass granite]

Sounds like something out of folklore

[halcyon forum]

which is something I actually struggled with for a while. Why is it okay to have some inherently good/evil beings in some scenarios but not others.

And I think childhood is kinda key. Its a period of time where one can be formed, moulded by their outside influences. But if you are spawned fully formed as the embodyment of a concept, then you dont need enough individuality to break from your alignment

[rough basalt]

Folklore can be good for inspiration.

[hot marlin]

Yeah but then the demons of Frieren are not "evil". The reason demons and other people kill each other has nothing to do with morals, it's a simple prey-predator relationship. Wolves don't do anything wrong when they kill sheep, deers don't do anything wrong when they manage to kill wolves

It's just nature. That's kind of above morality

[celest ether]

I like the fieren type monsters like magic beasts that evolved to have humanoid form but developed no humanity. Also the concept creatures that where created by evil gods or wizards as biological weapons designed to have no empathy.

[rough basalt]

It'd be more accurate to say Hyenas

[halcyon forum]

okay sure but in this situation, these demons are more of a force of nature than individuals making choices, so its also right to kill them, at least in self defense

[hot marlin]

In Frieren they certainly are individuals making choices

[halcyon forum]

okay so then they are evil and not above morality

[hot marlin]

Yes they are. Those are not mutually exclusive things.

[lyric viper]

And yeah, even then, you can go the way of Dragon Age and even in D&D where these beings can still change what concept they embody. Wisdom can become pride, celestials can fall.

[molten pumice]

Even with freiren though, you get a lot of weird people who misinterpret why demons are the kind of evil they are, and as good as the anime is, there are muddy things with how demons come into being. If they crumble to black dust when they die I don't feel like they should need to be born through reproduction. The "this monster is a predator that mimics behavior to trick people" thing isn't my issue, but there's a certain section of people that seem too eager to have functionally human monsters that they can treat like embodiments of evil because of a few poorly done lines in the lore, and it grosses me out.

[halcyon forum]

I disagree. Either you chose to be evil or you are just following your nature.

[buoyant oar]

Most of the time it ain't that deep

[glass granite]

-# Most of the time it doesn’t matter

[rough basalt]

Because it's fiction, and monsters disguising as humans is a tale as old as monster tales.

[hot marlin]

What? Everyone follows their nature. I cannot choose not to breathe. I will eventually give in and take a breath

[celest ether]

In Frieren even if the demons want to be good they simply can because they don't understand the relationship between being helping humans and not killing them. They have a distortion on how cause and efect works so they can't even follow actual logic a lot of times.

That happens in the manga, like the demons who try to be good or help humans or become more like human are actually more apocalyptic.

[halcyon forum]

that is not what is meant with "following your nature"

like basic bodily functions

[blissful ibex]

IIRC, the younger ones are basically LLMs, they just make sounds shaped by thousands of years of evolution to hopefully be more likely to land them a meal

and the older ones can develop a sort of personality/cunning but still very much see humans as food and anything said or done to the contrary is just pacifying the livestock

[hot marlin]

Yeah, same way I see chicken as food.

[marble lion]

No

[glass granite]

starts to shake in fear

[marble lion]

Because you probably still have some range off affection or pity or literally anything when handling animals

[hot marlin]

With chicken? Not really.

[halcyon forum]

you make the choice to eat meat. you can just not do it. and there are people who would say that you doing so is some form of evil

[jovial shadow]

I see 2024 changed Goblins to Chaotic Neutral, from Neutral Evil. Hobgoblins are still evil though. That's odd.

[lyric viper]

Might be getting a little too into discussing Frieren. Useful example, but a little bit too focused.

[blissful ibex]

whereas they have absolutely nothing, except the expectation that holding off on eating can get them more food if they're patient

[worldly flare]

Monster alignment debate?

[blissful ibex]

sort of, but not exactly XD

[molten pumice]

More or less 🤷🏿‍♂️ monolithic races in D&D/fiction is what I'm talking about more than the alignment system specifically

[celest ether]

I like demons in frieren because they are not just alien to human emotions but also logical reasoning despite them seen themselves as more rational, they just act beast like. Like a wild animal in captivity but much more erratic, so they often screw themselves despite their perfected acting.

[jovial shadow]

What is Frieren? I've never heard of that. Is that a different setting or some place in the FR?

[severe rampart]

Frieren is an anime

[lyric viper]

It's an anime, so we might be getting a bit on a tangent here.

[jovial shadow]

Ahh

[buoyant oar]

One would be surprised on how the Realms has been a trailblazer in the idea of not having monolithic species bucking from trends as early 1990

[hot marlin]

In fact The Forgotten Realms was one of the first settings to introduce a more nuanced take on the orcs.

[severe rampart]

To be honest, Frieren being somewhat on topic here is the only thing helping me comprehend these philosophical monsters

[worldly flare]

Personally I don’t like the idea of monolithic monster species because

A.It just brings up some really weird implications.

B.I don’t feel like it counts as evil if it’s some ontological thing. If an Orc is fundamentally incapable of thinking about the evil consequences of its actions, it’s as evil as a bear is.

[buoyant oar]

And drow

[blissful ibex]

incredibly good fantasy anime

[lyric viper]

(I will argue that drow were nuanced even in Greyhawk in their first debut. They had different faiths, the Vault was just one cultural example, and not all of them were evil in the module (Hello Nilonim!))

[buoyant oar]

"One of" 😉

[jovial shadow]

Well to be fair, Orc as a monster, is no longer in the Monster Manual. It's replaced by the general term of "Toughs". So they can be any alignment.

[halcyon forum]

yeah some stuff actually regressed in nuance in later editions

[blissful ibex]

The drows' more recent issues are more culture/governance/faith based than anything Inherent

[buoyant oar]

They Drow had varying cultures long before Salvatore coined Aevendrow and Lorendrow

[halcyon forum]

I actually think Salvatore is kinda to blame for the "all drow are evil, except this one guy" problem

[lyric viper]

I feel like some of it came from players who enjoyed the first modules but mostly remembered 'Those crazy evil lolth cultists' and not the random NPCs they could miss.
So when writing their own stuff later, focused in on that.

[buoyant oar]

Which is sad. Because that is mostly because his books are popular. He has multiple good aligned Drow. In his own books

[marble lion]

I like the idea of an entire species being metaphysically evil because its so different from reality

I dislike that its seen as the opposite

[hot marlin]

Have you heard of the token minority trope?

[halcyon forum]

its still incredible rare afaik. didnt he kinda ignore elistraee?

[marble lion]

"Oh you like evil races? You must think like that irl" but its specifically because its different from what i know

[hot marlin]

"One of the good ones". By introducing an exception, you actually reinforce the rule that the general state of the group you're trying to demonize is lower.

[marble lion]

Fantasy

[molten pumice]

I think my big thing is that most D&D folks aren't actual creatives in the way that someone like Tolkien or Frieren's author or any major work are. So they feel like they can just say whatever and it not really matter, but for most instances of monolithic races that I encounter around the game, it seems mostly to be either full blown racism, or laziness that doesn't care to work against the underlying racism and ends up playing into it instead, even if unintentionally.

I'd argue it's far more interesting, even if you want to do a monolithically evil race, to have a demon explicitly say "yeah, I could help those orphans and be a role model to this community for the next 600 years, but I'd much rather burn them all right now because I like being evil" or any other example where the villain is bad because they want to be rather than being like "demon bad because horns, eradicate on sight" it's played out if nothing else, and even if you have ignorant npcs who feel that way to justify the discrimination your quirky tiefling character faces, it's odd for that to be te explicitly heroic perspective of the story's heroes.

[hot marlin]

Thing is, I have other reasons to dislike the concept of a group being ontologically or metaphysically evil. It's because I just dislike the concept of evil in general.

[lyric viper]

Like Lolth cultists using tentacle whips? Misremembered from the original modules (Drow cultists of Elemental Elder God uses them (tentacles!), but were the shadowy enemy and so most players remembered 'Lolth worshippers' more).

[buoyant oar]

Yes. But he featured her in the new trilogy.

Also his stories are centered on Menzobarrenzan.

Extrapolation of a Species by one city. Is kinda on the reader tbh

[woven flint]

Let's be fair
Saying
"Oh, that Orc is one of the good ones!"
Just sounds kinda icky lol

[celest ether]

I get why it's soficult to make humanoid shaped mosnters since people subconsciously tend to portray their biases. And also get why many people avoid the subject entirely since many times it was used for racism and stereotyping.

But I don't think irredimable human shaped species of sentient monsters are bad by default.

[hot marlin]

Bad? No. Lazy, unnuanced and childish, yes.

[jovial shadow]

PC Orc slowly backs away....

[marble lion]

So rude

[lyric viper]

I just don't think you can have 'all evil' and 'people' in the same concept without some world building flaws.

[pallid matrix]

6th edition is anounced holy crap!

[celest ether]

It's as deep as you want them to be like in frieren, where the subject gets explored maybe too deeply. Also having simple tools in world building is not necessarily bad.

[jovial shadow]

sure it is

[woven flint]

Lies!
I say as I shut myself away in my box

[halcyon forum]

I think it sort of works with 40k Orks, barely

[buoyant oar]

Because Drizzt wasn't even the only book series about non evil Drow from the same setting. Rip Starlight Shadows trilogy

[molten pumice]

Yeah, it's weird to say "this is one of the good ones" but if you're doing your setting right there should be so many of everything that you don't have to say that because there are tons of "good ones" and "bad ones" of every group.

[hot marlin]

The subject is not explored deeply in Frieren. The impact of it on people is what is explored. But demons themselves, with one exception, are generally the least interesting part of Frieren. Which is fine for the kind of story Frieren wants to be

[pallid matrix]

2027 and Luke Gygax is in on it.

Apparently they are basing it on 2nd edition like 5th was on 1st.

[halcyon forum]

is luke gygax the cringe one or the decent one?

[pallid matrix]

decent one

[pallid matrix]

You are thinking of Ernie

[buoyant oar]

5e wasnt based on first edition

[lyric viper]

Ah. Then not D&D.

[pallid matrix]

I want 2nd editon again because modularity was the best damn part of 2nd

[jovial shadow]

People are going to play monsters or creatures how they want to, either by the Monster Manual or by their own way. Drows were considered evil in AD&D 1e, so they were played as evil. They are no longer irredeemably evil in 5e 2024, so there is no need to label them all as evil. But if a DM chose to do so, then it becomes a fact in their world.

[hot marlin]

The decent one. Ernest Gygax is dead

[naive cedar]

oh 6th edition is happening?

[pallid matrix]

yup

[naive cedar]

cool

[woven flint]

The prophecy is true..

[loud tendon]

one person arrived and said that.. so take news with grain of salt.

[lyric viper]

I was wondering as we've not heard anything. People making their own system based on D&D is not uncommmon. OSR is that.

[naive cedar]

seems a bit fast but oh well

[pallid matrix]

Wanna see the info i got on it?

[celest ether]

They're interesting because they subert the aptrophocentrism on the charaters and the reader.

[olive wasp]

GUYS THEYRE MAKING 7th EDITION RN

[naive cedar]

guys theyre making 8th edition!!

[olive wasp]

SOUND THE ALARM, TELL EVERYONE

[jovial shadow]

Sure in 10 years

[woven flint]

Nah, it's fine :3

[pallid matrix]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zaggzGNiFVI

[olive wasp]

Guys you won’t believe it 9th edition tn

[pallid matrix]

for anyone curious

[buoyant oar]

Gross

[olive wasp]

They wanted to skip a few to subvert expectations

[buoyant oar]

Dungeons and Discourse is like negative reliable

[olive wasp]

Paladin gets BUFFED

[nova trellis]

I just chalk this up with a lot of anti-social folks being drawn into these kind of stories. Toiken and other creators are very worldly, witty people and those are traits needed to make works that resonate with so many. Being drawn into those stories doesn't mean one is capable of that storytelling.

[pallid matrix]

oh? poop

[lyric viper]

Yeah

[pallid matrix]

sorry guys

[marble lion]

Call me when 5e releases

[naive cedar]

bro whats what the comment section on that video

[lyric viper]

Misinformation is easy to spread.

[woven flint]

You lied! /j
It's okay, friend, you didn't know

[halcyon forum]

yeah lol I looked up 6th edition and the only sources where D&Discourse and some small OSR channel with AI images

[woven flint]

Internet folks are cruel

[oak shoal]

Which ranger subclass has more aura for ranger. Gloomstalker or monster hunter

[olive wasp]

I got botted :(

They got mad at meeeeeeee

[pallid matrix]

sorry everyone sorry

[blissful ibex]

Hollow Warden, but it's still UA

[olive wasp]

I was just joking around lmao you’re not in trouble. But the bot did yell at me rq

[halcyon forum]

gloomstalker easy

[nova trellis]

Did you know you can merge multiple peasants into a rail-gun shaped chimera capable of destroying the lady of pain?!

[naive cedar]

did you know that mystra died AGAIN

[oak shoal]

What subclass has the most aura in general and why is it echo knight

[olive wasp]

Garlic bread domain cleric

[halcyon forum]

gotta be some Paladin subclass for obvious reasons

[oak shoal]

That one doesn't count to much aura

[nova trellis]

Mystra's cat, both dead and alive!

[worldly flare]

I say this as a Wizard appreciator, probably one of the Monk subclasses

[buoyant oar]

I like to punch up at WotC my fair share but Dungeons and Discourse isn't doing it for legitimate criticism of a mega corp. But because they got an agenda of their own.

That agenda being getting people changed with their content makes them money.

[pallid matrix]

curls up in a ball and hides I feel like a butt...

[oak shoal]

Conquest def

[blissful ibex]

did you know your DM can say "no"

Like half the silly rules abuse stuff forgets the DM can nix it because it's turbo dumb

[halcyon forum]

oh yeah conquest is a good pick

[olive wasp]

Says you, if they gave me fresh baked garlic bread that’s aura farming

[halcyon forum]

"All I am surrounded by is Fear, and dead men"

[nova trellis]

Something something Dark Sun, something something.

[loud tendon]

it's fine.. it's exciting to think you are the first one to convey good news. The chat has already moved on, so don't worry about it

[oak shoal]

Clerics of the coast

[pallid matrix]

Ohh dark sun is good yes.

[lyric viper]

Ah, not the only one- heard news you thought was exciting, but unless from official sources always take some 'news' with a grain of salt.

[woven flint]

You did nothing wrong, friend, you were misinformed, got excited and wanted to share with your community, we thank you for bringing it to our attention anyway so we can avoid misinformation

[pallid matrix]

it doesn't help 2027 is also a super hype year for me already either

[olive wasp]

My grandma said they’re making a new class 😮

[oak shoal]

It's true my grandma said it too

[olive wasp]

Grandmas of the coast

[nova trellis]

We should get more Grandma's into DnD.

[worldly flare]

They’re gonna make Wizards two, electric boogaloo.

[oak shoal]

They all keep buffing full casters because they want there grandchildren to stay far away from danger in the back line

[olive wasp]

Martial class

[pallid matrix]

does her happy dance that 2027 already has a big announcement still at least.

[worldly flare]

NOOOOOOOOO

[olive wasp]

Introducing the BLUE MOVIE (red)

[lyric viper]

My mother plays D&D and she's a grandma. She likes playing barbarians.

[olive wasp]

Shout out your mom

[celest ether]

I think an easier way of getting it done is not to think in frames of good or evil because then personal biases show up.

I feel the concept of amoral creatures being alien to logic and how humans feel more easier to develop and less morally charged than try them to be evil.

A lot of times fey are portrayed like that in dnd tbh, like you ask to be 2 times smarter and they give you 2 heads ans then you die because of that.

[oak shoal]

WotC hates martials they keep dangling actually good subclasses like it's a gateway to being good and then they release some stupid thing like 2024 baneret

[keen kestrel]

I know the psion is still in UA, but I kind of hope they can make it work

[naive cedar]

My mom loves rangers lol

[keen kestrel]

Tell me about it, just let martials have strong abilities

[worldly flare]

Yeah martials should be allowed to be cool. Even I feel bad at this point

[olive wasp]

Make barbarians stronger, I need to suplex more people

[oak shoal]

Stuff like echo knight, rune knight, zealot barbarians, gloomstalker was taking it in the right direction

I loved playing those subclasses

[naive cedar]

I love arcane archer

[keen kestrel]

I’m a big fan of paladins going in strange directions too

[oak shoal]

Ever since they made conquest subclass, I love the idea of a more evil oath

[keen kestrel]

The genie paladin doesn’t make sense on the surface, but it allows for a lot more depth with paladins if they push oaths in different directions

[keen kestrel]

I wouldn’t even say evil, moreso just that paladins don’t have to be fantasy cops

[halcyon forum]

ngl, I hate everything about the genie paladin

[molten pumice]

My controversial hill to die on is that martials do the fantasy of being a sword guy very well, but what makes swords cool is flavor that can't really be represented mechanically half as well as learning how to describe the specifics of why your sword guy is cool.

[keen kestrel]

I love it, it’s probably one of the cooler ones flavor wise, alongside ancients and watchers

[oak shoal]

Giving them chromatic orb rubbed me the wrong way. Paladins aren't supposed to have range

[keen kestrel]

Nah, let paladins use bows I say

[celest ether]

Any paladin can swear they oat to a God or whatever.

[woven flint]

That's a strange take lol?

[celest ether]

So it's not that much of a new concept

[woven flint]

Anyone can use ranged combat

[oak shoal]

Idk it's just me tho

[keen kestrel]

I mean yeah, but ideals can exist outside of following certain gods

[oak shoal]

Could you swear an oath of crown to a drow society?

[keen kestrel]

Why can’t I add holy magic to an arrow

[celest ether]

I like the idea of an archer paladin.

[woven flint]

Of course

[celest ether]

Unfortunately that was nerfed

[timid current]

Let me tell you about eberron

[rugged hawk]

Is it Investigation that took over for the Search skill?

[naive cedar]

I agree eith this. The fun with martials is thinking about how your character has a unique spin on the “sword guy”

[timid current]

The church of the silver flame makes extensive use of archer clerics and paladins

[molten pumice]

Apparently because they felt like that'd be "stepping on the ranger's toes" really bugged me when they said that...

[celest ether]

Idk why we don't have playable holly archers

[timid current]

Counterpoint they could just make all spells do a set amount of damage dice with no description. Would that be narratively compelling? Or is it good, actually, to combine narrative and mechanical bonuses together to make something that feels part of the game world

[keen kestrel]

For one thing, rangers got screwed over anyway with the new changes, and paladins can only smite once a turn functionally anyway

[oak shoal]

Removes the randomness of DND

[cosmic roost]

No pings, please :pray:

If you see someone with “No Pings” in their name, please don’t @ that user. If you Reply to them, please turn the alert @OFF, and if you forget, a simple apology is appreciated. Thank you!

[timid current]

What removes it? Removing descriptions?

[oak shoal]

Doing a set amount of damage

[molten pumice]

Yeah, for my money there's plenty of variety in mechanical moves you can make with a weapon attack, but if you only ever say "I hit him with my sword" it's going to feel flat immediately. The spells have their spectacle built in, fireball tells you why it looks cool, but you can do more with a sword than just throw it at a crowd, so you gotta work a little harder to explain how cool the thing you're doing with it is.

[timid current]

But if it's superior for martials to just have basic attacks and they have to narrate for differences, why not do that with spells?

[cosmic roost]

No pings, please :pray:

If you see someone with “No Pings” in their name, please don’t @ that user. If you Reply to them, please turn the alert @OFF, and if you forget, a simple apology is appreciated. Thank you!

[timid current]

Why do martials have to work harder to do less, than casters who have to work less to do more?

[naive cedar]

Admittedly rhats one reason I love arcane archer so much: a lot of the fun is in the unique subclass

[molten pumice]

The spells only really do anything based on the narrative that's handed over. Fireball says where it hits and how and if you took that away the word fireball could mean the same thing as fire bolt or burning hands.

[naive cedar]

Also I just like archers

[celest ether]

I don't get why the nature clerics exist if there's already druids ans druid can get their power from a nature God.

[stoic obsidian]

I wonder why people fine rituals to take too long, when it usually 10 minutes

[halcyon forum]

the concept is that one subclass might take a bit from another class. we got druidy clerics, clericy sorcerers, wizardy fighters etc

[hidden spindle]

To be a Cleric main with a few Druid Spells under their belt

[rough basalt]

Some people are very impatient to a fault

They don't wanna lose the 10 irl seconds it takes to ritual cast

[halcyon forum]

sometimes you dont have 10 minutes

[rough basalt]

Other people wanna speedrun

Sometimes you just genuinely need every second

[naive cedar]

I agree tbh

[celest ether]

Since druid is basically a cleric subclass made a class, so I guess that's why we don't have a druid with a cleric subclass. I feel it would be too overly redundant.

[stoic obsidian]

That what it feels like

[molten pumice]

There are minimum 9 ways to strike with any weapon you hold. But at the end of the day if you describe them mechanically they sound like they do less because the variety comes from how you're wielding them. If WotC told me that all my sword guys had to use fools guard and strike with the same attack animations I would have a much bigger problem than if they said "you hit a guy, and occasionally it can push him backwards"

[stoic obsidian]

Good thing I can use a spell slot to cast the spell normally as a wizard

[halcyon forum]

yeah I dont think there is much more design space to explore between druid and cleric. nature cleric covers the last little gap

[halcyon forum]

sometimes the DM creates a narrative where the party doesnt have enough time. happens quite often in my experience

[stoic obsidian]

And it kinda bad because it like, what even the point of ritual casting at this point

[rough basalt]

I remember a guy who left a game I was in cause we kept wanting to take short rests cause "it takes too long"

[halcyon forum]

you want to be able to ritual cast all the time?

I like that one is able to do it sometimes, and sometimes not

[stoic obsidian]

No

[celest ether]

My issue os that I feel nature cleric makes people think the only way of being a nature god cleric is being a nature cleric when druid is like an entire class dedicated to that. They're basically clerics to nature or a nature God.

[rough basalt]

A druid ain't a cleric tho and vice versa

[halcyon forum]

do people actually think that? I have seen some druids who focus a decent amount on the nature gods

[celest ether]

I guess they can be played as nature witches but nature witches are kinda like people who worship nature stuff too.

[hot marlin]

One DM I had established that the religious practice of druidism shunned gods and afterlives, druids refused to worship and in fact knew a special magic that would make sure that, once they died, there would be no afterlife

[hidden spindle]

But could a Druid ask for a Divine Intervention?

[celest ether]

They draw their power basically from a domain.

[rough basalt]

They draw their power from nature itself

[celest ether]

Nature itself is a domain.

[rough basalt]

Yes but Druidic magic isn't Divine Magic.

It can come from a divine source sure, but not always

[hidden spindle]

Actually, they're both Divine Magic

[stoic obsidian]

I mean it feels like people complain about it taking a lot of time, but in the situation we were in, it would have been fine, like traveling to another place with phantom steed that would have taken a couple days, like what the heck, or using Rory telepathic bond to keep communication up while our fire genasi goes up the mountain because we only had fire resistance, almost like people don’t think we can’t just say 10 minutes pass

[hot marlin]

Actually 5e did not establish a difference between types of magic

[heavy hull]

all druids are cleric but not all cleric are druid is always my rule of thumb

[hot marlin]

But in previous editions, yes, druids were divine spellcasters

[hidden spindle]

Its in the '24 DMG

Divine magic—which includes the spells cast by Clerics, Druids, Paladins, and Rangers—is mediated through beings and forces that are categorized as divine.

[stoic obsidian]

So yeah I sound like I want to ritual casting all the time sorry

[hot marlin]

I really should read it completely one of those days

[rough basalt]

Huh thought druidic magic was different

[celest ether]

Divine is not necesario holy. Nature itself is a form of divinity, the cicle of life creation and destruction, it's a sort law created by the creator deities of the setting.

[rough basalt]

Then there's the issue of when there are no deities remaining

But I guess maybe you got magic from their corpse

[atomic kayak]

Druidic magic has, in the history of dnd, fluctuated between being Divine magic or a separate type called Primal magic

Reason its been Divine (and is currently categorized as such) is because Divine magic, contrary to popular belief, does not require gods

(Incidentally, thats the same reason that clerics and paladins dont need gods either)

[rough basalt]

Ye cause in world's like Athas, gods don't exist anymore, only remnants of divine energy

Which is what the last circle has

I see

[celest ether]

Depends off the setting, in some setting the gods are all dead but their corpses keep the world functioning until they run off power and then I guess they just suffer from entropy and chaos if that happens, but many god corpses can remain for almost unlimited time.

Worshiping thei concepts of corpses also fuels them even if they're permanently dead.

[hidden spindle]

Wizard, Sorcerer, and Warlock (& maybe Artificer?) is Arcane Magic.

That just leaves Bard with... Bardic Arts.

[rough basalt]

Alright I understand.
Druids are Druids tho

[atomic kayak]

Bards are arcane, generally speaking

[rough basalt]

Tho werent Druids originally a subclass of cleric or something or am I mistaking that

[timid current]

Originally in which edition?

[rough basalt]

Idk old

Probably TSR era

[turbid vessel]

"idk old" is crazy lol

[atomic kayak]

Druids were derived from clerics originally yes

Similar to how bard was from rogue

[lusty kelp]

In2e, everything was a Fighter, thief, cleric or Mage, but that was less modern classes and more roles

[rough basalt]

Before Wild West Wizards of the Coast made a billion classes and subclasses (3.x)

[hot marlin]

The first druids were indeed a cleric kit, if I remember correctly

Bards though, were a mix of druid and rogue

[atomic kayak]

(Bard actually involved picking up druid things)

[halcyon forum]

more classes are good actually. hot take apparently

[atomic kayak]

Beat me to it lol

[atomic kayak]

Too context dependent to be a hot take IMO

[halcyon forum]

I think there is easily enough design space for around 20 classes without feeling too repetitive (but also some overlap is fine)

[celest ether]

I think Primordial magic is magic that comes from raw elemental chaos, divine is magic that comes from the direct intervention of creator gods laws and apear as result of dominating concepts, and arcane magic is a tertiary type of magic often creates by a god of magic, meant to facilitate mortals acquisition of power and understanding of the world.

I am right?

[glass granite]

Hello right, I’m Nugget
-# and idk

[atomic kayak]

Not particularly tbh

Even outside of the variation of settings

[celest ether]

What I'm wrong about?

[uncut zenith]

AFAIK in a lot of official settings, arcane magic isn’t created by a god, it’s monitored and guarded by them

[vagrant quartz]

i'm a lesbian with dead parents???

No wait, wrong arcane

[lyric viper]

Generally applicable to D&D too though.

[atomic kayak]

Divine Magic doesnt need gods, nor is it inherently created by them. Arcane Magic is in a similar boat.

"Primordial Magic" isnt really a thing. Assuming you meant Primal Magic, it is usually either a thing that just means "nature" or just a type of divine magic (as mentioned before)

[celest ether]

Well sometimes a god makes it sometimes mortals. But I think it always require an arcane web to operate and produce natural phenomena or even reshape certain aspects of reality.

[uncut zenith]

Like magic in general exists regardless of whether the gods do or don’t. In the Forgotten Realms, Mystra is the goddess of magic in the sense that she monitors the Weave, who may or may not have access to it, and how much access they have to it. But the Weave exists (though both particularly stable) whether Mystra’s there or not.

[vagrant quartz]

Wait lemme read

Okey I finished

[covert root]

Just using Forgotten Realms as an example, it’s the same pool where magic comes from, just different ways to interact with it.

Arcane spellcasters like wizards or sorcerers tap into it through study or innate talent, whereas clerics, paladins, or warlocks are conduits for it, channeled with the help of their patrons or deities.

[uncut zenith]

In the case of the FR, the Weave is also the source of all magic, not just arcane

[umbral girder]

Actually it was Fighter, Cleric, Thief, and Magic User

[atomic kayak]

(And notably the Weave isnt a thing in all settings either)

[vagrant quartz]

I'm sitting here pretending to understand and nodding

[timid current]

*fighting-man, Magic-user, and cleric

Thief came later

[vagrant quartz]

God-fangirl

[wraith kelp]

guys

[vagrant quartz]

That's how I usually call clerics

[celest ether]

I know divine magic doesn't need Gods, but in all setting creator Gods of their corpses usually are what create the basic laws of the world and divine magic usually withdraw power from them even if the Gods are dead or something. But some mortlas have divine sparks in them so they draw the power just from themselves.

[wraith kelp]

should i make a spellbook irl ?

[lyric viper]

(2e did change the names. Wizard in 2e was split into Mage and Specialist Wizards. Clerics were priests 😛 )

[wraith kelp]

but people gonna think im a lunatic lol

[hidden spindle]

It makes bookkeeping easier

[vagrant quartz]

Do it,

[wraith kelp]

whats that

[covert root]

How else are we going to teach kids how to spell?

[wraith kelp]

no not that kind of spell..

[hidden spindle]

Just having your Spells learned in your book and Spells prepared outside your book

[wraith kelp]

so i should?

[lyric viper]

Just to make it extra confusing and fun for ;Well Ackshully' battles

[atomic kayak]

Thats... not true though?

[celest ether]

In the forgoten realms arcane magic doesn't work whiouth the web of magic and the web is created and maintained by a god, the time the previus godess of magic died the net was destroyed and all acane casters died by implosion.

[atomic kayak]

Dead god corpses are generally... less than related

[vagrant quartz]

This discussion is waaaay out of my league

[wraith kelp]

haha welcome to D&D

[uncut zenith]

Again, the Weave was not created by a god. That’s why it still exists even when the presiding god of magic isn’t around.

It’s dangerously unstable, but it’s still there.

[vagrant quartz]

I'm here for the memes and also magik

[uncut zenith]

The god of magic in FR isn’t the creator, they’re its gatekeeper.

[wraith kelp]

no but Clerics dont need a god for magic? or do they need a fallen god of some kind atleast

[lusty kelp]

The weave s just "background magic field"

[atomic kayak]

No god or any association with any kind of god, dead or alive

[wraith kelp]

cool

[celest ether]

I Interpreted all arcane casters dying a it being destroyed.

[wraith kelp]

so they dont

[atomic kayak]

Correct, they do not need one generically

[uncut zenith]

Nope. It’s just so unstable that it’s dangerous.

[wraith kelp]

dont they just need faith?

[atomic kayak]

Pretty much

[wraith kelp]

like the god doesent have to exist it can be imaginary

[uncut zenith]

They just need to believe in something strong enough that their belief empowers them

[wraith kelp]

btw guys i made a wizard but idk

[uncut zenith]

That’s why Clerics exist who worship philosophical ideas instead of an individual god or a deity.

[wraith kelp]

also i wanna make some kind of scavanger or something

[uncut zenith]

Like you can be a cleric of peace without being associated with a god of peace

[wraith kelp]

true

[vagrant quartz]

So technically speaking, if there were enough followers there could be a nugget god?

[jovial shadow]

They need a gods for some abilities to work (eg Divine Intervention).

[uncut zenith]

There’s actually even an official NPC in Wild Beyond the Witchlight who canonically doesn’t serve a god, but rather serves an ideal.

[celest ether]

They need an existing concept to draw power from and usually all concepts are related are domains. Like a doman can exist whiouth a God if enough people belive in them. Depends of the setting but a lot of domains are God created or have a gods as administrators of it.

[hidden spindle]

Kuo-toa done it

[chilly mauve]

I wish finding campaigns was easier :/ I haven't played in so long I'm pretty much back to factory setting

[vagrant quartz]

Even a pickle god?

I need to start a pickle cult, guys who wants to become a pickle cleric with me?

[celest ether]

If enough people imagine the God exist sometimes a god appears.

[chilly mauve]

One word: Santa Claus

[wraith kelp]

i belive in his rudolph

[celest ether]

A mortal can also become a god.

[chilly mauve]

Just his Rudolph

[vagrant quartz]

When you realize children are just Santa Claus clerics

[celest ether]

Is it explained why no new Gods are born in everyone?

[wraith kelp]

yes

[chilly mauve]

Nothing else. Somewhere out there in the wild there is rain deer with a shiny red nose

[celest ether]

I feel it's weird

[uncut zenith]

If anything the parents are the Santa Claus clerics, cuz they’re the ones spreading the word about him to his “common worshippers”

[wraith kelp]

yes!

[chilly mauve]

Yeah but they don't BELIEVE in him, just spread the word and get others to believe

[vagrant quartz]

Theyr more like preachers

[wraith kelp]

As the once wise man said there isnt a god without its belivers

[jovial shadow]

Theoretically, but as of yet there are no game mechanics to make it so.

[wraith kelp]

maybe a prophet?

[chilly mauve]

I wish I could unlock more races in DND beyond without having to paaaaay I want to make a satyr

[celest ether]

Santa claus: Christmas domain. Gifting domain. Hot chocolate Domain.

[chilly mauve]

I'm in love with those little guys

[vagrant quartz]

I wanna be the gingerbread domain cleric

[wraith kelp]

yea 😭 i wanted and artificer but when i had to pay i said nuh uh

[atomic kayak]

Generically no

Even in settings with Gods associated with domains they didnt necessarily create those domains. The domains are just concepts. Most gods dont create the concepts. If anything in most cases its the other way around

[chilly mauve]

I once had a few things unlocked on another account that I cannot for the life of me remember the password to and I had a Tabaxi Artificer and it was GLORIOUS

I also had a Ranger Satyr on that account 💔

[wraith kelp]

lol i once played Tabaxi fighter

[vagrant quartz]

I have a friend who's sharing all his dnd books

[celest ether]

When yo do your dive intervention a giant Santa appears and says: "HoHoHo what's your wish kid?"

[chilly mauve]

[vagrant quartz]

I'm eating good

[celest ether]

More gingerbread?

[vagrant quartz]

I gifted them strixhaven for Christmas

[chilly mauve]

Bone apple teeth

[wraith kelp]

guys anyone have any ideas how my spell book should look?

[vagrant quartz]

Cool

[wraith kelp]

well yes but the design