dnd-discussion

[glass granite]

Hi so SAD (you’re singe ability score dependent?), I’m Nugget!

[tropic plank]

You’ve just given me an excellent idea for a barbarian warlock multiclass

[severe rampart]

gets hit with a nat 20 tis but a scratch

[tropic plank]

Actually you’re Nugget not Nugget!

[woven flint]

Actually, My Harengon Bladesinger once negated an entire crit against himself lol

[severe rampart]

How

[glass granite]

No, I’m Nugget. Who’s Nugget not Nugget
Anyway, enough of that

[tropic plank]

Bot lmao :3

[woven flint]

Okay, let me set the scene.
We're fighting a dragon that does Necrotic damage.
I pop Tashas Otherworldly Guise (The heavenly way) and it gives me immunity to necrotic damage, half the crit right there.

THEN, I use Song of defense to spend a 5th level spell slot to reduce the remaining 25 damage to 0 lol

[lyric idol]

No, you're Nugget, not Nugget. and not Nugget!

[glass granite]

That’s a few too many brain cells for me

[tropic plank]

You see what I see

[tropic plank]

3, 4?

[glass granite]

2, maybe three

[flat niche]

Wait wrong server

lol

[glass granite]

lol

[pale vessel]

Ig think of shy guy?

[idle oar]

Ahem.

[lyric viper]

.>

[woven flint]

Is that ELGATE

We meet again, friend 🧐
I still remember the time you beat me with a broomstick

[pale vessel]

Also good morning everyone lol

[lyric idol]

Good mornin.

[lyric viper]

Me? Beat with a broomstick? I've never beaten anything in my life!

[woven flint]

Blast it!
Your feigning of innocence has me beaten..
WAIT! Aha! I've got you now!

How's your games been goin'? :0

[glass granite]

Ok that’s a wild story that I really want to hear

[woven flint]

She just broom reacted me once upon a time lol

[fiery nimbus]

so are you saying you have never taken an action that would activate crusher feat if you were in possession of it?

[lyric viper]

Having never taken that feat.. I'm unsure. For the longest time I've just been playing my Artificer that was an amalgamation of the UA Gunsmith and Tasha's base version

[lean hill]

Is it normal to have an armour class at 17 to start as a level 1 cleric

[tropic plank]

I feel like Elgate’s appearance is like seeing the bbeg in the first session, only for the reveal to be in like session 17

[lyric viper]

Yeah, that's pretty good but not too unusual.

[lean hill]

I have a shield and a chain shirt which caused it to go up. Which I got from nobility I believe

[halcyon forum]

yeah thats pretty standard

[lean hill]

I also rolled my stats and they aren’t too shabby

[halcyon forum]

shield and chain shirt are cleric starting equipment

[lean hill]

12, 14, 16, 14, 14, 14

[halcyon forum]

nothing to do with background

[lean hill]

Oh thanks

[lyric viper]

I did that once! The player was penpals with a BBEG even with the clues right there. They figured it out just before the reveal when checking through old notes and letters.

[lean hill]

I feel like I’d be an awful dm

I have written a couple unethical things

Like making the party fight each other and only half would be able to win

Imagine a 5 year campaign ending like that

[lyric viper]

Hmm. I would advice avoiding PvP for sure, yeah.

Becuase.. I've had something like that pulled after a long campaign and.. yeah. I really, really didn't enjoy it.

[tropic plank]

My first bbeg was a vampire who the party accidentally freed, who wanted to destroy the sun

[fiery nimbus]

I love BBEG out in the open

hell show them the beast in session 1, just give them not actual chance to fight it

[glass granite]

I showed my BBEG sesh 3

[crisp lake]

same here, it was even worse cause my character was the only survivor

[halcyon forum]

a certain way to leave a bad taste in everyone's mouth and not have your players pick you as DM again

[crisp lake]

i like more slow buildups, but a faster BBEG reveal is also very fun

[lean hill]

Oh

[red steppe]

What makes the characters do that

[indigo cedar]

for my current campaign I plan on having a slow buildup of the BBEG. Some BBEG's are best hidden until it's too late, especially in a grimdark campaign

[fiery nimbus]

it is a slow build up, but BBEG is present the entire way through

like Strahd

[crisp lake]

or what i do most of the time, a 4 step plan:

1. A slow build up for a BBEG
2. Party defeats BBEG
3. A new BBEG is somewhere out there
4. Repeat

[fiery nimbus]

but what if

1. BBEG introduction with a blast
2. Party goes after BBEG
3. They Run into unforeseen complications / BBEG induced difficulties
4. Repeat the point 2 and 3 until you can build up towards the final confrontation

[crisp lake]

that is also very cool

[fiery nimbus]

Imagine players start in a city that at the end of session 2 is pulled underwater by a Kraken
and than after they are forced to leave the city they hear the rumours of coastal cities being drowned
like a full on apocalypse

[remote wadi]

Question
Does a resistance to an element only affect damage? Or can it affect something else like saving throws

Asking because Ray of Sickness deals decent poison damage, but also needs a con save to avoid the poisoned status

[fiery nimbus]

only damage

[fiery nimbus]

correct, but in this case it wouldn't be poison save, it would be a con save

[marble lion]

Poison is a special one

Most things that are resistant to poison damage also have advantage on saves against being poisoned

As a dm, id definitely do that whenever it comes up but im sure somewhere in dnd there is a case where it doesnt work like that

[remote wadi]

So having one doesn't do both, but they often go hand in hand

[marble lion]

Dwarves, warforged

Any racial poison res is expressed in duality

[remote wadi]

Gotcha

[severe rampart]

I wonder what kind of shenanigans a shapechanger with illusory magic can get into

[fiery nimbus]

they rarely go hand in hand
those are separate features

[remote wadi]

I mean that they are not combined, but they are often paired together

Also, idk if it's just my brain and it being late
But I am stumped on a good thing to solve the Ranger in my campaign being power crept. It shouldn't be hard to ask for a homebrew rule, but suggesting one... that's a different story

My original idea was to use a bonus action to have the next ranged attack consume and shoot 2 ammunition, but that doesn't feel right

[vagrant quartz]

Guys, should i or should I not take metamagic initiate to have 24 hours of aid and false life on me and my party?

[fiery nimbus]

give them an artefact magic weapon

[vagrant quartz]

I could also multiclass into sorcerer and get bless so I could get another feat

[remote wadi]

A magic weapon could help, but I'm trying to stick to a homebrew rule available from the get go

But trying to think of one is stumping me

[fiery nimbus]

homebrew rule being?

[red steppe]

Imagine a dnd campaign but has the plot of a gmod skit

[remote wadi]

I don't know

[fiery nimbus]

...

[remote wadi]

It's a lot easier to ask DM to implement a homebrew rule you want vs asking them to make one for ranger specifically

[fiery nimbus]

mhm, and i was not talking about making any new rules

[remote wadi]

Well, yeah. Hopefully, someone out there has good ideas they can toss my way

[fiery nimbus]

magical item?

[marble lion]

I still feel like rangers arent as weak as people say

[buoyant oar]

They aren't.

[marble lion]

They just dont have the big red button

[remote wadi]

Okay, it is a long story. I'd recommend reading my messages from yesterday for context

[fiery nimbus]

By all means they are on the stronger side, but since @remote wadi is saying they got powercreeped at their table, something must have gone wrong

[remote wadi]

Probably for the best so I don't blow up chat again

[marble lion]

And their cool world interaction feature is useless without a good dm implementing stuff to make it relevant

[buoyant oar]

Power creeped. What does that mean

[remote wadi]

Very short and sweet context, yeah

[marble lion]

Everyone else getting stronger

Slow but steady like creeping up

[buoyant oar]

How are they getting stronger?

[remote wadi]

Homebrew rules

So I wanted to see if chat had some ideas to suggest. "Hey, I thought of a good homebrew rule to make Ranger stronger. Can you implement it?" is easier and less stressful than "Hey, it's really hard to keep up with the party as Ranger. Can you make another homebrew rule to buff Ranger?"

[buoyant oar]

Well there you go, if everyone is getting a benefit from HB ruleset then a HB rule for the ranger.

For the 2024 ranger a common one is Hunters Mark Die increases size each time your PB goes up. And The spell no longer uses concentration.

[fiery nimbus]

ah so you want specifically a homebrew rule

[remote wadi]

Yeah

[fiery nimbus]

do you have access to different kinds of arrows?

[remote wadi]

The 2 reasons I was holding off telling the DM was

1. Worry that it eould make things worse (worked/ing out)
2. Like I said, having the solution to the problem makes it a lot easier to bring up said problem

[remote wadi]

As of now, no. Only the arrows I got from starting gold

[glass granite]

Buffing ranged combat feels wrong to me, but maybe asking for extra spell slots from the homebrew rule?

[vagrant quartz]

@glass granite hello wise nugget

[glass granite]

Hallo

[vagrant quartz]

Dm gave me a fire immune and dmg dealing pet, how ethical is using it to set fire to webs

[fiery nimbus]

web spell has a specific fire clause so... its an intended effect

[severe rampart]

I nearly brought up alignment again

[vagrant quartz]

I whould litterally throw him in the webs to set fire to them 👀

[remote wadi]

I feel like buffing it wouldn't be that bad. The MP system means that casting low level spells costs very little while also isn't super expensive to upcast. In other words, the competition becomes less "my longbow vs their cantrips" and is now level 1 spells, more or less

[marble lion]

The flaming sphere is heading towards a human commoner
Pull the lever and it changes course to four goblin children
Do you pull the lever?

This will affect your alignment

[severe rampart]

Why would the species matter

[glass granite]

Maybe some scaling for your longbow damage? But I feel as if sharpshooter does that

[marble lion]

Answers by monday

[vagrant quartz]

Depends, what gives more xp

[severe rampart]

that affected your alignment, Haise

[marble lion]

All things do

[glass granite]

Plus the fact that you’ll get weapon upgrades

[fiery nimbus]

its not unethical, but very uneffective

[marble lion]

Because its a reference to the callous disregard of goblin lives due to their constant use as low level bloodbags

[severe rampart]

wait I didn't even read the question correctly, why would a lever be able to change the course of a fireball

[vagrant quartz]

I think imma get web and fireball next lvl

[vagrant quartz]

It's a magic lever duh

[severe rampart]

a magic lever for WHAT?

[glass granite]

Redirecting fireballs it seems

[vagrant quartz]

Magic lever of ethical conundrum

[marble lion]

The lever leads to a rope system with a red and green flag. The caster of the sphere will alter course if you pull it

[remote wadi]

Sharpshooter does help... if it connects, of course. But I just looked at what things like Ray of Sickness does, and something tells me the homebrew rule needs to buff ranged combat. Being able to do 2d8 poison damage on a successful ranged attack + a con save and poisoned status on a fail is now closer to a cantrip than a spell for how much you can cast

[severe rampart]

right but if the fireball is already heading to the human, why would changing the position of the caster after it already happened affect the scenario at all?

[fiery nimbus]

well, its a poison damage... just apply poisons to your arrows -_-

[marble lion]

Sphere, not ball

[glass granite]

2d8 is still an average of 9, your longbow does an average of 18.5 iirc

[vagrant quartz]

Guys should I be boring and infuse fireball into my cartomancer feat so I can double fireball in a single turn?

[remote wadi]

That damage is from Ray of Sickness

[severe rampart]

Right, Flaming Sphere, still, how would that affect anything if you change their position after it's already been casted

[marble lion]

Flaming sphere is a spell you can move around so letting the caster know the signal lets him decide where the sphere goes

[glass granite]

You could dip your arrows in poison ig

[vagrant quartz]

The forbidden salsa dip

[severe rampart]

I also have a question, could I cover my arrows with dirt and mud for a "poison" effect as well?

[glass granite]

I’d rule no

[knotty pasture]

Elemental arrows would be big, I swear my Gloom Stalker damage is further buffed by just throwing elemental arrows

[remote wadi]

Nope. It's just 8. 1d8 + 4, and Sharpshooter means my overall accuracy is... 45%

[vagrant quartz]

Is tetanus canon in dnd?

[marble lion]

The sphere is cast away from both and then the caster moves it to the commoner
Pulling the lever shows the green flag and the caster changes the direction to the goblins

[severe rampart]

why wouldn't it

[glass granite]

I’m counting sharpshooter, and d8 being 4.5

[fiery nimbus]

well yes, but ray of sickness is a 1st level spell
you do know you can apply poisons to your arrows, right?

[severe rampart]

and also, you mentioned the goblins are young but what of the human commoner?

[vagrant quartz]

Then they get poison dmg if they don't treat the wound propely

[marble lion]

Make tetanus a demonic thing in dnd have the violent backbreaking seizing more pronounced

[marble lion]

Its an adult

[severe rampart]

Yeah but tetanus isn't instant, you don't just die from it immediately

[glass granite]

Your to hit bonus should be only slightly less than your allies, it’s a +3 instead of like a +5/6

[marble lion]

Doesnt it takes weeks to set in?

[vagrant quartz]

So more like an dmg over time

[severe rampart]

I reckon the battle would be long over

[glass granite]

Which isn’t small, but it’s more than double the damage/double if you round down

[marble lion]

Youll hear 5 months later that the enemy you hit died last month

From splintering their own spine in convulsions

[severe rampart]

Alright so, I counterspell the flaming sphere away from anyone's direction

[vagrant quartz]

If they use healing magic to speed up the healing process but don't use like lesser restoration beforehand I guess tetanus dot xD

[glass granite]

Plus you attack twice first round

[remote wadi]

It is a first level spell. Look up my messages before about the homebrew MP system, and you'll see that it matters less now

[marble lion]

You have failed the assignment! F

[glass granite]

Still matters, tbf. It’s still a resource, especially earlier in the game

[severe rampart]

F for Fantastic

[marble lion]

F stands for falling rocks. The party is dead

[fiery nimbus]

Frankly the more i hear the more im convinced that most problems are self-inflicted

[severe rampart]

also there's no correct answer because

The Adult Human Commoner works for a homeless shelter that cares for and provides homes to young goblins, and they were just so happened to encounter the spellcaster on their way to the goblin's new homes

[severe rampart]

letting the adult human commoner die would result in traumatic early childhood memories for said goblins

[knotty pasture]

I can't disagree with the self inflicted bit

[vagrant quartz]

Is the commoner religious? Which deity do they prey to?

[remote wadi]

Not without equipment to do so. And by the time I do... I assume the poison resistant enemies will start showing up

[vagrant quartz]

Same goes for the goblins

[severe rampart]

we're heading to dangerous territories

[knotty pasture]

Its restriction after restriction designed to make Ranger seem like the worst possible class lol

[vagrant quartz]

I know xD

[remote wadi]

Either way, it seems that I can't find a good rule i can suggest being added. Perhaps I'll come back later

[knotty pasture]

Idk you can just say something like all ranged attacks should add their wis modifier to their final damage

[glass granite]

Didn’t I suggest to rework the spell stuff

[vagrant quartz]

What if the commoner is a bhaal enthusiast?

[remote wadi]

We've definitely narrowed down what it should be, so that's a small victory

[severe rampart]

No matter whom they worship, their actions still defer from that, they still took care and raised those young goblins

[marble lion]

Beautifully done you get full marks

[remote wadi]

Adding more spell slots? It's not a bad idea, I'll keep it in mind

[marble lion]

Now pull the lever

[severe rampart]

Thank you Haise

[marble lion]

Do it now

[knotty pasture]

I also just peeked at my Gloom Stalker sheet out of curiosity, my character crits by rolling a nat 18-20 (15% crit chance), an accessory that allows the next hit to be a guaranteed crit once per long rest

[severe rampart]

Wrong lever

[knotty pasture]

No wonder I felt like my crit chances are way higher than a mere 15%

[vagrant quartz]

KRONK NOOOO

[severe rampart]

Oh, right. The lever. The lever for diverting the flame sphere, the flame sphere chosen especially to kill the goblins, the goblin's flaming sphere. That lever?

[marble lion]

Yes echo that lever

[knotty pasture]

350+ arrows... Dammit I've been hoarding arrows nonstop

[marble lion]

Thats a different lever

[severe rampart]

Oh no, it seems this lever was made to divert a railroad track

Alright back on topic

[marble lion]

This is on topic. Raw dnd inspiration

One day i will actually just straight up put the trolley problem into a session

[remote wadi]

Well, if you do have any suggestions for a rule to suggest to the DM, ping me in the reply

Bonus if it is centered around Ranger and ranged damage

[severe rampart]

that, and the prisoner's dilemma

[remote wadi]

Gotta sleep now

[marble lion]

Ofc they can solve it in other ways, not the stupid isolated lever choice

[knotty pasture]

All arrows deal extra damage equal to your wis modifier, you're welcome

Make it your con modifier if you want to be less in your face about the bias

[marble lion]

"I misty step and cut the rope"
Yeah okay thats the quest done

[remote wadi]

Well, it would likely solve the issue, I'll give it that

But... how would Wisdom make sense for arrows?

[knotty pasture]

Flavoring is free

[severe rampart]

I thought it was Dex?

[knotty pasture]

Well yes but we were talking about ways to buff Rangers/ranged damage

[remote wadi]

Homebrew rule to suggest to DM to help Ranger not get power crept

[knotty pasture]

Arrows dealing damage based on your dex + wis modifier is probably the easiest way to buff damage output through the roof

[severe rampart]

Great

[knotty pasture]

Dex + con if you don't want to seem like the rule is deliberately made for the Ranger

[severe rampart]

So Bloodline, have you tried negotiating trading your bow for a gun

[remote wadi]

That eventually will be the plan. But that feels like just a temporary solution to the bigger issue

[lean hill]

In the beginning

Is a Chinese influenced song on social media

[remote wadi]

Also, maybe Strength and Dex would make sense for a longbow

Well, I gotta sleep now. But if you have any more, hit me up

[knotty pasture]

Str and Dex would make sense yes but its one of those things that is hella op in bg3 but average at best for a standard game with no respecs

Very rarely do classes stack both str and dex, the closest you have are Str Fighters and Barbs but they aren't quite it either

[static nest]

what RAGE is better/stronger? 2014 or 2024?

[crimson gulch]

2024 for sure

Returns on short rest, 10 minut duration, easy bonus action exstension

[last lark]

Scrolling through the <looking for players> tab, most of the timezones seem to be europe or NA timezones. I haven't seen any Asian timezones. I'm in Asia so hours are quite opposite. Wish there were some compatible ones

[severe rampart]

I am 13 hours ahead of my party

us asians just gotta compromise

[last lark]

Dayumm

Midnight Sessions huh

[uncut zenith]

More versatile too now that you can use Rage skills

[glass granite]

Now imagine how the Aussies gotta feel about this
We feel your pain

[livid owl]

Funnily I WANT a midnight session and can't ever find one

[severe rampart]

actually no, just early mornings for me

[severe rampart]

oh our timezones are actually really close

[glass granite]

Then you should know it’s getting quite late lol
Imma sleep

[severe rampart]

Hah, true that, but I sleep afternoons in order to make up for the early mornings I gotta get to for my first oneshot

[last lark]

Hmmm... Maybe one shots are the thing for contradictory timezones

[severe rampart]

Yeah, I'm just looking to gain hands on experience with DnD, before my first actual real campaign

[burnt valley]

Yes i will, four goblins aren't as important to a single more highly intelligent species

[severe rampart]

WOAH WOAH WOAH, I cannot believe you went there

That is an instant failure the ethics and reasoning 😭

[burnt valley]

i wouldn't pull the lever tho if the commoner was a worshipper of Mystra

[rugged hawk]

Goblins aren't worth anything beyond their xp and loot

And possibly nutritional value if there's no other food sources

[severe rampart]

arent they humanoid? wouldn't that be pseudo-cannibalism?

[livid owl]

Insane that goblin is a player race with this going on LMAOOOO

[livid owl]

Actually really interesting conundrum there, as they may be humanoid but they are from a completely different ancestry from humans. So you have to think on it like, is it cannibalism to eat a cow just because it's also a mammal? Wild.

[severe rampart]

a cow doesn't speak the same language as me

[unkempt roost]

Im pretty sure they're Fey now

[knotty pasture]

As a certain isekai anime I like told me, its not cannibalism if you aren't the exact same species

[rugged hawk]

The ability to speak does not make something intelligent.

[knotty pasture]

Red dragons eating black dragons isn't cannibalism, but red dragons eating other red dragons is cannibalism

[livid owl]

Wild conversation we're having here

Don't eat humanoids kids! It may not technically be cannibalism but, unless you're a gnoll, it's definitely going to be frowned upon by your peers.

[severe rampart]

Still it feels morally wrong to do eat a somewhat intelligent species

[unkempt roost]

If chickens were intelligent, eating them wouldn't be cannibalism

[severe rampart]

I think if they spoke English it still wouldn't be cannibalism but would be morally wrong

[rugged hawk]

It's survival. Also, Darwinism for goblins getting the short straw in the evolutionary tree. Also, they're ugly and stupid and contribute nothing to cultured society

[knotty pasture]

Its morally wrong for humans to*

It wouldn't be surprising for a goblin to eat dwarf meat for example

Cuz they (and a ton of other dnd races) don't follow human morals

[severe rampart]

yeah I thought we were basing it on humans

I mean sublime, what would you sacrifice? an adult human or FOUR child goblins

[knotty pasture]

Goblin childs

I'm a Dwarf fan and Dwarves were in war with goblinkind before

So down with the gobbos, Dwarf supremacy let's go

[severe rampart]

I worded it wrong, uh trolley problem, trolley's heading for human, do you flick the lever?

[knotty pasture]

Yes, because Dwarves

[severe rampart]

Well the child goblins weren't there for the war

I think

Alright let's change subjects before all of this morality talk attracts a certain man who shall not be named

[lean hill]

Has anyone ever had to fight an asteroid spider?

[rugged hawk]

four HUNDRED goblin children*

Goblin Slayer would be pleased

[severe rampart]

Oh my god 😭

[rugged hawk]

Kobolds are the far superior race, anyway

[jolly path]

Depends, are any of them optimizers?

[full warren]

Where's the best place to find an owlbear session?

[crisp lake]

kobolds? Nah, i play cubes of cheese (shifter)

[lyric viper]

Or because this line of conversation ends up being pretty crass.

Gentle reminder for folk to consider how they're framing these discussions, playfully or not- better to focus on why you like certain species by how they're written/play rather than 'fantasy racism jokes'.

[lyric viper]

As in games that play using owlbear rodeo? You can check through our LFG channels like #looking-for-players and search 'owlbear' using discord's search function.

[wild marlin]

guys, i need some help

[thin smelt]

What's up?

[rugged hawk]

If I wanted to give someone wielding a Weapon of Warning a flaw based on over-reliance on it, that'd fall under... a Perception debuff, maybe?
This magic weapon warns you of danger. While the weapon is on your person, you have advantage on initiative rolls. In addition, you and any of your companions within 30 feet of you can’t be surprised, except when incapacitated by something other than nonmagical sleep. The weapon magically awakens you and your companions within range if any of you are sleeping naturally when combat begins.

[wild marlin]

so my guy who is like insane wore some shadowsteel and became a shadowsteel ghoul so how the hell do i make him more insane and distant

[thin smelt]

D-don't?

[wild marlin]

hes a ghoul

[rugged hawk]

Ghouls eat people, its kinda their thing

Well, that and make more ghouls

[wild marlin]

the pricew of shadowsteel is making them more insane

level 2 of the transformation they physically cannot make freinds

how make more insane

[livid owl]

Keep in mind your character should still be able to function in a party dynamic as that's the whole point of the game

[wild marlin]

yeah

should i just carry on doing what i was

[rugged hawk]

Yes, by turning the rest of the party into fellow ghouls

[wild marlin]

hyperfixating on one person in the party

thats how i did it before

[livid owl]

I'd say talk with your DM and your group I guess? It's not impossible to pull off, I'd just suggest you get as much feedback as possible while doing so

An insane murderous character works fine but you also have to know when to reign it in so it isn't just ruining the party's chances with every NPC ever by trying to eat everything (A la murderhobo)

[wild marlin]

this guy got forced to enlist in the army 10,000 years old got forced to turn into a ghoul and has felt death multipole times

stuck in a spell for 10,000 years

[lyric viper]

This is also very specific to Grimhollow so some folk in #third-party might be able to help, because this isn't just typical ghoul, but very specific rules on how the curse progresses and it's effects.

[wild marlin]

oh

okers!

[livid owl]

OH they're using ghoulborn
Yeah I have no idea how that works so yeah definitely consult people who do 👍

[wild marlin]

human

[rugged hawk]

Sooo... if someone became over-dependent on being warned of danger by an item and stopped paying as much attention to potential threats in their environment because of it, that's.... Perception, right?

[static nest]

other then the 2014 MM and GRIM HOLLOW CAMPAIGN GUIDE
what other books have mechanics for a player to be a werewolf?

[livid owl]

I feel like that should affect passive perception more than active perception, but then again.... I have not had many DMs use passives at all so .

[static nest]

if this a Q for #third-party let me know and i will ask their
GRIM HOLLOW CAMPAIGN GUIDE is consider 3rd party?

[lyric viper]

It is, but that's a general question. I can't think of other werewolf stuff. Ravenloft has some rules for other lycnathropes I think.

[static nest]

u remember where in Ravenloft? or who it realest? so i know where to find it?
there is a book that have this mechanic, i saw him before but forgot the name
but i also love to check new ones

in the book i look for it through feats

[lyric viper]

Van Richten's Guide to Ravenloft has rules for Wereravens.

[timid current]

eberron's got shifters

I suppose the question is; are you looking for
a: balanced rules for playing a lycanthrope baed character
b: rules for playing a furry wolf character
c: rules for playing an overpowered monster
d: something different

[lost flicker]

2014 Mordenkainen's also has Shifter's

[livid owl]

Oh! There's also Bloodhunter/Order of the Lycan

[static nest]

i think a is the one for me, bcz b it for sure not, but it a bit of c maybe

[static nest]

it similer to the ebbron one. right?

[lost flicker]

or if you wanna make balance modacam's more difficult you can ask your DM to start the game infected with lycanthropy

modocam? how do you spell that word

[static nest]

yes, i know it, tnx for remund me to look at that as weel

[timid current]

if you want A: a shifter is your go to

[neat yoke]

Hi everyone!
I’m new to D&D and also new to this server.
I play with the Stranger Things: Hellfire Club starter set, but it’s in English and I’m French, so I have some difficulties.
Would anyone be willing to help me learn and understand the game better?
Thanks!

[worldly flare]

Sure, what do you need to know?

[livid owl]

There IS the problem that shifters are born as shifters though- it's a race, not an individual with a curse, which has a different vibe storywise

[lusty kelp]

I mean, to be fair, being cursed into being a killing machine is only a curse if its outside of player control. Otherwise, being a killing machine in a game primarily about combat is more of a blessing.

[livid owl]

I see it more as a psychological consequences for the character type thing- they likely didn't choose to be this beast, and if they did, it has its complications for day-to-day life. That's the appeal in lycanthrope characters for me anyways.

"Oh I'm a monster... I'm hideous..." Type beat

[lusty kelp]

the complications are loss of control and agency, though. Or just Bodily dysphoria

Being part animal is... common in D&D.

[livid owl]

The social ramifications for being a lycanthrope even if it's under your control type thing

And to be fair Bloodhunter/Lycan DOES have consequences outside of your control

[timid current]

You can 100% flavor a shifter to be a body horror thing

[copper mist]

simic hybrid works for that too

[timid current]

Beast barbarian also allows for this

[copper mist]

yeah but then you’d have to be a beast barbarian

[lusty kelp]

Social ramifications are under the DMs control, and apply to just about anyone the DM wants the setting to be biased against. If its under control, its no longer a curse but a Primal power akin to moon druids.

[livid owl]

I mean yes, there can be social ramifications for anything in a DM's game should they so choose, I thought we were basing this off of typical tropes within lycanthropy themes. Lycanthropy usually isn't seen as a blessing by most people in the fiction it's born from.

Commoners would think it a profane curse regardless of if this random stranger claims they have a handle on it

And like I said, I know at the very least Bloodhunter/order of the Lycan does have a consequence for being in your hybrid form. I think the feature is called bloodlust and forces you to make a wisdom saving throw to avoid attacking the nearest person regardless of if they're a friendly

[copper mist]

a dm once made guards attack me on sight for being a warlock

i was literally celestial pact as well he just hated warlocks or something

that guy sucked

[lusty kelp]

Lycanthropy is fundamentally a curse because it involves loss of control and then eating people. If you don't attack people (ie you're under control) then its not a curse. Lycanthropy is also generally more common in settings where animal-people aren't a mainstay. "I turn into a wolf when the moon is full!" "Oh, me too! I'm a druid!"

[copper mist]

he also banned harengon

[knotty pasture]

Yeah that's basically a roundabout way to ban Warlock lol, like can anyone even tell you're a Warlock from a glance?

[copper mist]

idek why he did that harengon is such a non issue race

[livid owl]

Bloodlust
If you start your turn with 18 HP or less, you must succeed on a WIS saving throw (DC 8) or move toward the nearest creature and use the Attack action against it. If you're concentrating on a spell or an effect prevents you from concentrating (such as a barbarian's Rage), you automatically fail this saving throw.

If you have Extra Attack, you choose whether to use it. If more than one creature is equally near you, roll randomly to choose your target. Once the attack is resolved, you regain control.

• Order of the Lycan Bloodhunter

So again this one. At the very least. Does have consequences for being a lycanthrope

[lusty kelp]

Yes, and once again, the problem is loss of control and attacking people

[livid owl]

Ok yeah how would they even know 😭

[copper mist]

he was like oh people in this world HATE warlocks and i was like okay i wont use eldritch blast near them but idk he decided they could smell the pact on me or something

[knotty pasture]

Yeah maybe that should have been the hint lol

I agree that its dumb but I'd personally avoid picking Warlock from that statement alone

My personal hot take is that I'd ban Half Elf/Orc and Samurai from my table, that's kind of it

[copper mist]

yeah true

why

[lusty kelp]

once had a DM that tried to tell me that tieflings would be biased against, and a whole thing in their setting. My response of "that sounds awesome, i wanna do that" made the dm do a double take and finally admit he just didn't want any. Everyone was like, "oh, okay, why didn't you just say that?"

[livid owl]

I don't really know what the argument is by this point now if we both agree that this is a detriment

The whole conversation was about having a beast form = blessing/boon and this was born from suggesting shifter if you want a beast form, to which I said "some people find appeal in the consequences of lycanthropy and just want more balanced/less destructive lycanthropy. But still lycanthropy, with all the negatives that come with it'

Like I've lost the plot here idk what we're talking about anymore

[copper mist]

a lot of dms hate tiefling for some reason

[livid owl]

Idk why tiefling are cool

[mental fog]

Sometimes its nicer to say its not suitable for the world versus Me, the person, just dont like this thing.

[lusty kelp]

They're a "monster race" - its no different than the dms who hated drow or goblin players. Gotta have "good, civilized races only"

[mental fog]

But its also vague and open to interpretation if you dont state something plainly too.

[thin smelt]

I love tieflings. They're maybe a bit over-picked these days, but they're probably my favorite race option

[lusty kelp]

I don't think anyone here can tell my stance on tieflings though. Its really difficult.

[copper mist]

i think tieflings are fun because they’re different enough to be noticeable but not different enough to be like children would actively be terrified like a lizardfolk or something

[knotty pasture]

For me I'm really not into the idea of half races in general, like why are Elves and Orcs the only half races but not everyone else

[lusty kelp]

Pay no attention to the name

[knotty pasture]

You're either an Elf/Orc or Human

[mental fog]

Hating tiefling in 2025 certainly is a choice considering they're super popular and dnd related media loves to show them in the protagonist parties too no less so really it is just an uphill battle to the DM that doesn't like tiefling.

[knotty pasture]

The Samurai thing was just because of how closely it resembles real life lol

[lusty kelp]

hm?

[thin smelt]

Tieflings inherently have a special/misunderstood snowflake vibe, but I don't think it's strong enough that they become shallow.

[copper mist]

fair but half orc is just a better species mechanically than orc on like a million different levels to the point where it’s kinda sad

[thin smelt]

They're enough of a blank slate to still make unique

[knotty pasture]

Hm, that gave me an idea actually

[lusty kelp]

just out of curiosity, what do you mean?

[knotty pasture]

I could just make Half Elves/Orcs an Elf/Orc subrace, but err that probably is more effort than a ban

[thin smelt]

I don't think I've actually seen a full-blooded orc in DnD in over 8 years, as a player or NPC

Just an observation

[knotty pasture]

Samurais are basically actual types of soldiers in a real world country

[copper mist]

they’re just half orc without the entire point of half orc

[knotty pasture]

Its a fantasy world and I'm biased against real life references

Like how I'd cringe at the idea of an FBI agent class for example

[copper mist]

but like

[lusty kelp]

the whole point of the half-orc was that they're rooted in a time when orcs were unplayable monsters. half-orcs are just pc-option orcs.

[mental fog]

But a knight is a real life class?

[copper mist]

samurai don’t exist anymore

[mental fog]

And so are monks

[copper mist]

why not ban knight or caviller or swashbuckler or monk

[thin smelt]

I played a half orc half goliath once. That was fun.

[lusty kelp]

kk. was just curious. thankx.

[copper mist]

or like

bard

[knotty pasture]

Yeah but they aren't related to any one real life country in particular, Samurai's very... how should I say it, really in your face on that regard

[lusty kelp]

I'm of the opinion that the Fighter subclasses need to actually be more tied to actual things. Like... have a Guard subclass, a Gladiator subclass, a Soldier/military commander subclasses, etc.

[mental fog]

Culturally relevant? Because you're not from said culture?

[copper mist]

that’s what backgrounds are for

[knotty pasture]

I guess so? Part of it could also be bias in general as I said, isekai works in general made my perception of certain tropes being more dull than usual

[lost flicker]

I'm of the opinion ranger could have been a fighter subclass and it would have been so much better

[knotty pasture]

I'd probably say something similar if any class references a very specific real life country

[lusty kelp]

that's like saying bards being dancers or artists are a background thing. I want fighter subclasses to be based in story archetypes instead of just "this fighter is 3e-style, this one is 4e style, this one has magic, this one has psionics."

[copper mist]

that’s what reflavouring is for though if you want to be a guard be a battle master who was a guard

[lusty kelp]

Its not reflavoring

[copper mist]

i think i just don’t get what you’re saying

[lusty kelp]

Its giving, say, perception bonuses as part of the subclass. Or actual mechanics for guarding people or areas

[lost flicker]

bards being dancers or artists is totally a background thing, the artform a bard pursues isn't relevant mechanically, and wizards has been very keen to make things (especially lately) as much of a template as possible,

[lusty kelp]

No, those are literally subclasses now for bard

[knotty pasture]

Oh yeah now that I remember, there's a subclass that I really wanna change

[copper mist]

for the most part 5e subclasses aren’t very strict on how you learnt the abilities just what they are, the only exception is warlock pacts, are you saying you want fighter subclasses to be more career-y and more handed to you as to what you are?

[knotty pasture]

Make Oathbreaker a fighter subclass

[lost flicker]

Dancer is yeah, because in 2014 they hyper focused bards towards being musicians

[copper mist]

what kind of insane take is that

[knotty pasture]

Funny cuz a while ago I said the exact same thing and chat thinks I cooked

[copper mist]

oath breakers still have oath magic though that’s the whole point

[knotty pasture]

Should they though

[lost flicker]

this might or might not be a hot take but, banning Oathbreaker as a player option at the table overall

[knotty pasture]

Oathbreakers deviate from Paladins quite a fair amount, they're banned at some tables as a result for how far they went

[copper mist]

they make an oath to not restrain themself again

[knotty pasture]

Well no Oathbreakers literally don't have oaths

[lusty kelp]

I want the subclasses to be more rooted in some kind of class fantasy. Like, the difference between champion and battlemaster is that one is 3e fighter and one is 4e fighter.

Storm clerics, for instance, are heavily tied to storm dieties and invoking that kind of fantasy. Fighter subclasses don't really invoke specific class fantasies.

[knotty pasture]

Half of them are knight based so I guess Fighters are basically knights

[lusty kelp]

Some fighters are, yes.

Knights, guards, mercinaries, soldiers, generals, etc.

[knotty pasture]

5/9 have some kinda reference to being a knight, the rest are a bit more flexible

[lost flicker]

they're also not meant to be played by players, they're meant more for DMPC's, they deviate from paladins because they're no longer paladins but an "oathbreaker fighter" isn't an oathbreaker anymore because fighters never had an oath,

[copper mist]

the same can be said for like 90% of subclasses in the game though

[lusty kelp]

I'd say closer to 50%, but I will maintain it for them too.

[knotty pasture]

Oathbreaker Fighters would be called Dark Knights or something I reckon

[lost flicker]

okay so it'd be a different thing

[knotty pasture]

Yeah, no way its gonna keep the whole oath thing in tact from the port

[copper mist]

oath breakers just shouldn’t be playable

[lost flicker]

you don't want to make oathbreaker a fighter subclass you want to make a fighter subclass that reminds you of oathbreaker

[static nest]

if i have something that give me temporary +2 to CON , like from 10 to 12
so it means for this time i have +1hp for each level?
if so, what will hupend to my HP after this if i took damage while i had this exstra HP

[knotty pasture]

A port basically yes

[lost flicker]

thats not what I said

[timid current]

And

[knotty pasture]

The idea of a subclass is that its based off the original class, porting it would always mean it won't keep any Paladin features at all

[copper mist]

yeah that’s dumb

i can see a case for oath broken paladins becoming fighters but oathbreaker being a fighter subclass instead of a pally one is just odd

[lost flicker]

lets say you're level 8 and have about 50 life, if your constitution modifier increases by 1 then that means that you would go up to 58 life, if you take- lets say 9 damage, then you'd go down to 49, and then if your constitution modifer was lowered by 1 again, the damage would carry over, meaning you would now have 41 Hit Points

[knotty pasture]

Where's the group of people who was into this idea the last time when I needed them

[lusty kelp]

I'm going to have to check, but afaik, you don't get extra hp from a CON boost. You get a raised maxHP, which can be healed up to max. When the boost expires, your max HP cap just returns to normal without affecting your current hp

[copper mist]

in wrongville

[static nest]

now that i think of it in Talks From Woodcreek the bard cat a spell that make the max hp bigger, someone know what it was? or what can do something like that?

[halcyon forum]

The idea of a Dark knight as a fighter subclass can work, but it shouldnt be tied to being a former paladin

[halcyon forum]

Aid

[copper mist]

but what do i know im a warlock player i just cast cantrips

[lost flicker]

yeah so that's not a port though you're just making a different thing, porting would be like.. turning the pf2e leshie into a 5e species, it's different sure but fundamentally its still the same

you can totally port a paladin subclass into a fighter subclass, but that's not what you're suggesting, what you're suggesting is just making a whole different thing, which is also fine, but just understand that that's not turning Oathbreaker into a fighter subclass, you're just making a new fighter subclass

[static nest]

so u think difrent from @lost flicker ?

[lusty kelp]

I'm trying to find the answer in book, that was just off the top of my head and might be wrong

[lost flicker]

right, sorry I should have been more specific, yes you get a max HP boost, not necessarily an HP boost overall- though in my experience when you get a max HP boost.. such as from leveling up before you've gotten the chance for a long rest, your base HP does still increase alongside it

[copper mist]

thoughts on yuan-ti being a stupid dumb race that shouldn’t exist because it’s stupid and dumb

[lost flicker]

there aren't really many if any examples of someones constitution score being raised and then lowered on the fly like that, at least not that I know, so I doubt its something they really officially ruled on- in those cases I just go off of former precedents

[woven flint]

Why? Lmao

[lusty kelp]

Everything I see does say that a temporary CON boost affects your maximum hp amount, not your current hp.

[lusty kelp]

I like sneks. they huggable. 🐍

[knotty pasture]

I have never met a Yuan Ti player before but I'm listening anyways

[lost flicker]

not familiar with it enough to give an opinion, whats your problem with it?

[lost flicker]

don't suppose you'd be willing to cite a source

[woven flint]

I've got a Yuan-Ti Alchemist Artificer lad

[copper mist]

advantage against every spell and free suggestion and a resistance and a cantrip and dark vision

just everything

[static nest]

now that i think of it, in the 2024 rules of transformation isnt something like that likely to huppend? like with druod wild shape, bcs the druid will get the beast CON but stay with the OG hp, right?

[woven flint]

They're not that bad lmao

[copper mist]

ADVANTAGE AGAINST EVERY SPELL

[knotty pasture]

Its above average but I wouldn't say its ban material, not when variant human exists

[woven flint]

Looks at Gnomes. Saytrs and Vedalken

[lost flicker]

saving throws against spells, not every spell, but yeah that + the spellcasting is.. hefty

[static nest]

like what? what realy can do it other them Aid?

[woven flint]

Well, Vedalken have advantage on all MENTAL saves

[copper mist]

THEY ONLY GET THEIR ONE THING THOUGH YUAN TI GET LIKE SEVERAL OTHER THINGS

[woven flint]

I'd mind the caps

[copper mist]

my b

[idle oar]

Yes please mind the caps

[knotty pasture]

I'd say Yuan Ti = Satyr in strength

Ban or nerf the strongest stuff first

[scarlet marsh]

Inside letters

[lost flicker]

thats so not a fair comparison,

"magical resistance and infinite animal friendship with resistance to all things poison" vs.. lets see here.. "level 1 feat"

[copper mist]

how

yeah exactly

[woven flint]

Or, don't nerf it..
Just ban it lmao

[knotty pasture]

Fey ancestry, better base mobility and jump height

[lusty kelp]

PHB (2014) 177

[copper mist]

yuan ti is definitely way better than an origin feat

[marble lion]

Its always a good idea to make things not busted so people can access it more easily

[lost flicker]

"instead of making this option more viable so people can still have it to play lets just get rid of the option"

[woven flint]

Infinite animal friendship with specifically snakes though.
I do understand Suggestion being pretty strong

[copper mist]

oh wow you can jump high that’s useless in comparison to literally suggestion

[marble lion]

Banning takes joy away from people

[knotty pasture]

Oh no I was comparing it in terms of high op games, it was kind of a consensus that Variant Human sits at the very top cuz feats are a big thing

[lusty kelp]

"If your Constition modifier changes, your hit point maximum changes as well"

[lost flicker]

high op games?

[knotty pasture]

Once per long rest suggestion mind

[woven flint]

Suggestion isn't the most powerful spell though, lmao

[knotty pasture]

Yeah I thought that's what we're basing it off on, if this is on personal bias its w/e I get the point

[copper mist]

i suggest you think about that for 8 hours straight or until i break concentration and don’t do anything else until then

[knotty pasture]

Variant Human gets thrown with the likes of perma flight races at the top but Yuan Ti never quite shows up

[copper mist]

make a wisdom save

[woven flint]

Well, that's the thing.

No spellcaster wants to hold concentration on a spell for 8 hours

[knotty pasture]

Its still really good but not the best once again

[static nest]

the reason i ask is bcs i found it (Corpus Malicious - The Codex of Evil) and there in the hybrid form your con score get +1 (not 2, my bad. but it still can cuse the same case)

[copper mist]

yeah that’s my exact point you’re giving a level 2 spell to a NON SPELLCASTER

because you don’t have to be a spell caster to be a yuan to

and you’re giving them magic resist too

[woven flint]

Which is
Once per long rest, the non spellcaster isn't going to have a high spell save DC...

[copper mist]

it’s a flat dc 13

[woven flint]

No it's not? Lol

[copper mist]

wait ignore that

[lusty kelp]

No. No ignoring. Only judging

[lost flicker]

just read it, that doesn't say that your hit points don't increase when your max hit points do, it just also doesn't say that they do,

[static nest]

so change in max hp efect the amount of actual hp?

[copper mist]

you’re giving a fighter a level 2 spell for free magic resistance for free poison spray for free dark vision for free

poison resistance for free

[lost flicker]

I know at the very least i've always run it as your hit points increasing when your max hp increases

[woven flint]

Also, if you want to point to the free cantrip for whatever reason as I saw you mention...
Poison Spray isn't even that good.
Most things are resistant or immune to poison.

[lusty kelp]

It looks like an area where there's no official rule. Your max hp goes up, but if that means your current hp changes is open to debate.

[lost flicker]

it doesn't say that lol

[copper mist]

it’s still a free alternative damage source for someone who would not have it usual

[lost flicker]

"infinite animal friendship but only on snakes" that's not a clause in the description

[woven flint]

"Serpentine Spellcasting. You know the Poison Spray cantrip. You can cast Animal Friendship an unlimited number of times with this trait, but you can target only snakes with it. '

Yeah, it does lol

[lost flicker]

my fault

[copper mist]

I can’t believe we’re defending free suggestion that comes with magic resistance

[lost flicker]

just reread, missed that, my bad

[copper mist]

if it was a feat it would be strongest feat in the game

[lusty kelp]

I actually find that infinite snek frendship to be fine. The magic resistance is the only problem, imho.

[woven flint]

I can't believe you're so pressed over free suggestion, dude 😭

[knotty pasture]

(Once per long rest)

[woven flint]

Gnomes and Saytrs get it.

[copper mist]

they get ONLY IT

[lusty kelp]

gnomes do not- they get it for mental effects only

[lost flicker]

once per long rest free suggestion at level 3

me personally I think magic resistance is the big thing,

[copper mist]

it’s that it gets both

[woven flint]

I don't think magic resistance is honestly that huge of a thing.

[lost flicker]

yeah no I think its strong I just don't think the spellcasting is the issue

[copper mist]

suggestion lasts 8 hours

[copper mist]

that’s because you’re playing one and you’re biased

[woven flint]

If I may level and be honest
There's only so much ADVANTAGE on spell saves can do for you.

[lost flicker]

its a level 2 spell, gotten at level 2 spellcasting time, once per long rest,

[woven flint]

One who doesn't really have decent stats to back up the advantage on spell saves lol

[lost flicker]

you're right, there is only so much, except so much is.. a lot

I don't think its ban worthy, I do think it should be weaker

[woven flint]

I think you're blowing Yuan-Ti way out of proportion, pork

[copper mist]

the mantle of spell resistance is an item that gives you that and it costs 5000 gold

[lost flicker]

I think the poison resistances + the spellcasting + 2 languages + the ASI + the darkvision is completely fine as is without Magic Resistance

[knotty pasture]

Ava I'm curious, which race would you say is the strongest

[woven flint]

Demons and Devils and a few other monsters get free spell resistance too :000

[knotty pasture]

Its the first time I've heard Variant Human get shot down on that front

[lusty kelp]

I would like to get rid of magic resistance on PC species options altogether, personally.

[copper mist]

I agree

[lost flicker]

I think the Magic Resistance is really whats over doing it and that part should be scrapped, this is a species, not a class, these are things you're getting at level 0, you get plenty from just playing the game otherwise

[copper mist]

winged tiefling lineage dhampir

/reborn

[lost flicker]

I like Variant Human, I really do, I just wouldn't compare it to Yuan Ti here, especially not as an anchor point for the "strongest species" to compare the others to

[burnt valley]

Poison Spray is underwhelming

[knotty pasture]

Who is the strongest species then

[static nest]

did someone here ever used the PLAYER CHARACTERS AS LYCANTHROPES rules form the 2014MM?
by the way, something like this exsist in 2024?

[knotty pasture]

Or one of the strongest at least

[eternal stirrup]

heyy soo i’m a returnee who is out of the loop, is there any games going that i could join that would allow me to play a sidekick character

[valid geyser]

i dont think so in 2024. I've had an accidental wererat PC at one point, but it wasn't for too long

[lusty kelp]

nope, and nope.

[copper mist]

probably kenku

[woven flint]

"Yuan-Ti is broken"

Warforged: (free +1 Bonus to Ac, doesn't have to Eat, Sleep, Ect, Tool and Skill proficiencies, Resistance to Poison and advantage on poison saving throws)

[copper mist]

or locating

[last lark]

Hello! I humbly request your assistance, I would like to know a one shot adventure with a decent amount of combat, but also teaches the basics of the game. (Sorry for bad English)

[knotty pasture]

Kenku is a new one

[woven flint]

Now I know youre baiting, what? 😭

[copper mist]

yuan ti gets both of those last ones

[copper mist]

i was joking kenku is awful mechanically

[valid geyser]

i definitely think volos yuan ti are the easy pick just because a damage immunity alongside advantage on spell saving throws is unique to them

[static nest]

and what rules did u used?

[copper mist]

thank you

[valid geyser]

this was years ago, so 2014

[woven flint]

Volos Yuan-Ti is indeed broken

[copper mist]

wHAT

[woven flint]

But Monsters of the Multiverse Yuan-Ti just exists

[copper mist]

they are literally identical

[woven flint]

A damage immunity for a PC for free.

[static nest]

and used the ruled from the mm?

[knotty pasture]

Wait before you go, which races are comparable to Yuan Ti then (which I assume is on the list of being the strongest)?

[umbral girder]

No to both

[woven flint]

That's a whole ass common damage type they just are immune to.

[valid geyser]

also volos aarakocra are strong early on for the weird 50 foot fly speed (more focus on the 50 feet flying then just the flying, which is its own debate), but speed is very contextual

[copper mist]

oh resistance vs immunity

[upbeat tapir]

Winged Tiefling, Custom Lineage, Variant Human, Harengon, Dhampir are all better (IMO).

[copper mist]

right that’s what pushes it over the edge

[knotty pasture]

Aarakocra is at the very top for me too, unconditional flight is big

[uncut zenith]

There are no rules for playing a lycanthrope in 2024. Per the lycanthropy stats, a creature that’s cursed and drops to 0 becomes a corresponding lycanthrope under the DM’s control. Similar to vampires.

[copper mist]

that’s why winged tiefling is there

[valid geyser]

yeah, it was just a failed save and they were a wererat. Didn't amount to much because the campaign was pretty short

[upbeat tapir]

Their flying isn't unconditional. Only Winged Tiefling have unconditional flight

[umbral girder]

Werewolves are rarely ever threatening in the games I’ve run and played. Closest one is the Loup Garou.

[woven flint]

Yuan-Ti also.. literally have lore reasons why they're resistance to magic too, if I recall?

[knotty pasture]

I swear everyone but Avacyn is answering something I'm asking Avacyn specifically

[static nest]

bcs i have Q's
like: the +1 to AC in beast from (for example) it +1 to what? the regular AC of the PC? with the armor and all?

[timid current]

I suspect that asking the same question again in caps an hour later after its been discussed is probably going to get you the same response but maybe a little more frustration

[copper mist]

ah yes lore reasons that totally makes up for it being op when are they going to give fire genasi immunity to fire and resistance against all fire related spells

[valid geyser]

2024 changed up werecreatures a lot, might be for the better to remove stuff like the damage immunity so a new GM cant accidentally throw a nearly invincible enemy at unsuspecting PCs

[woven flint]

:p

[copper mist]

can’t argue with that logic

[lost flicker]

hm.. Loacath is pretty strong minus the whole needing to be in water thing.. which pretty much damns it from the beginning.. Duergar are good in specific situations- Harengon isn't too bad, Giff.. Leonin- Warforged and Tortle- but all of these are very very niche

I think what Pork said earlier makes the most sense, Variant SCaG Tiefling with the Dhampir Lineage

[valid geyser]

well they were trying to make it align with the monster statblock. Mostly just the "PCs and monsters should play similarly" thought process. Same reason why volos orcs had int penalties

[woven flint]

Well. Fire genasi are plane touched, they aren't born on the elemental plane of fire, I think that explains why they only get resistance well enough :3

[lusty kelp]

nitpick - poison immunity dropped to resistrance, and magic resistance only applies to spells instead of any magical effect. So, they were nerfed a bit. still strong, but less OP than volo's.

[static nest]

did i asl this before? i don't think so, i as other thing around that subjuct and the caps part is bcs i copy paste it

[woven flint]

Hey, you know what? Fair.

[lost flicker]

I gotta be honest, and this is gonna sound mean, as a DM- hearing another DM talk about having issues with flying species is just a self-report that they're a bad DM

flying complicates things, it does, but you are god, and you are allowed to either: create a situation where the flight doesn't make things a problem, OR create a situation where the flight is actually the saving grace of a puzzle, which lets that player have the chance to feel cool for being able to fly

[copper mist]

when is warforged dies instantly in water update

[knotty pasture]

Its as much of an issue as variant human which isn't that big of a deal

[woven flint]

Volos PC species just kinda look bad

Is that a weird opinion?
The MOTM versions just feel more polished, I hope we get a MOTM-esk reprint

[knotty pasture]

I'm also not a DM so you can take the snarking away

[woven flint]

WELLL....

Warforged aren't mechanical like that lol

[copper mist]

variant human isn’t that strong it’s just versatile

[umbral girder]

Magic resistance feels strong if you play low levels mostly

[valid geyser]

i dont blame a DM for not wanting perma flight in a game. It's pretty context based if its strong or not, or they just want flying to be something only achievable via spells and magic items

[upbeat tapir]

Variant Human is generally worse than Tasha's CL, but it's up there in terms of the best races in the game

[scarlet marsh]

Being evil and making the warforged player rust over time if they don't oil up

[copper mist]

one feat at level 1 is only that strong if you’re actually starting at level 1 and not level 3 or something

[uncut zenith]

I mean, that was mainly the point of printing them in MOTM. To clean them up from their VGTM counterparts

[upbeat tapir]

It's powerful no matter when you start.
A free feat is a free feat. If you take a good one it's going to be impactful for the whole game

[valid geyser]

i mean an extra feat does a lot to put some ease on stuff like ASIs. You still only get so many of those

[woven flint]

Also fair 💀

[upbeat tapir]

It allows martials to get CBE + SS at lvl 4, as opposed to at lvl 8 which is HUGE

[woven flint]

We get Monsters of the Omniverse next...

[uncut zenith]

The reason the MOTM versions seem so polished is because they’re intended to be that way.

[copper mist]

what’s the worst subclass in the game do we think

[woven flint]

Undying Warlock.

[copper mist]

it’s undying warlock right

[woven flint]

Hands down

[upbeat tapir]

Whichever monk subclass you think is worst

[woven flint]

That's... a take?

[copper mist]

what kind of take is that

monk is great

[valid geyser]

even origin feats. I'm playing a rogue in 2024 with like, 54 HP at level 5. But I can also admit i rolled pretty lucky with HP gains

[upbeat tapir]

Well Monk is the worst class in the game so its worst subclass we'll be the worst subclass in the game.

[copper mist]

what?????

[uncut zenith]

That’s definitely a take

[copper mist]

monk is arguably one of the best classes in the game

[valid geyser]

at least in 2014, I could understand monk as a pick, but rogues and barbarians are in general worse for me, at least at certain level ranges

[woven flint]

At least one of the best Martials!

[lost flicker]

a level 1 mental ASI + a once per long rest level 2 spell is pretty solid from a species is really quite solid- (Fey Touched), there's the lucky feat, sharpshooter, great weapon master, shadow touched, tough, tavern brawler, crusher, piercer, slasher- there's a lot of really good feats and getting them at level 1 really is hefty, I don't think Variant Human is the strongest possible option, and especially shouldn't be used as a comparison to Yuan Ti for the sake of defending Yuan Ti, but saying it "isn't that strong" is also just wrong

[valid geyser]

also i think bad subclass usually doesnt just mean its tied to a bad class. Often the worst subclasses suffer opportunity cost with really good subclasses
but that being said 2014 monks have a lot of bad subclasses

[woven flint]

Battlerager Barbarian and Undying Warlock were the worst subclasses, mefeels

[copper mist]

and hexblade

[lost flicker]

understanding that the "best" in this context is entirely based on opinion because any other comparison would be like apples and oranges, I still say that 2024 Monk is definitely up there in the running for best class in the game

[copper mist]

lol

[woven flint]

Old Berserker wasn't that great either, but it got a glow up!

[uncut zenith]

I don’t really believe there is a “bad class” in D&D. There are just a bunch of classes, all designed to play differently from one another, with playstyles that range from something I love to something I hate

[upbeat tapir]

Not even close.
Class tier list from best to worst :
Wizard, Sorcerer, Druid, Cleric, Bard, Warlock, Ranger, Paladin, Artificer, Fighter, Barbarian, Rogue, Monk (but Monk and Rogue are very close at the bottom).

[lost flicker]

ranger

[valid geyser]

2024 monk is way stronger like half due to the fact it gets all its points back on short rest, making resource management (the reason why it had issues) almost a non-issue

[wintry sequoia]

Ranger

[copper mist]

this is actually insane and might be the worst dnd take i’ve ever seen and i saw a guy say oathbreaker should be a fighter subclass

[uncut zenith]

Just saying “Ranger” doesn’t change my opinion. Ranger was never bad in my eyes

[woven flint]

You see..
You put DRUID above CLERIC and lowballed Fighter.
I feel like this is bait 😭

[timid current]

Apropos of nothing, since school is out for winter holidays will you all be playing any D&D?

Any big sessions planned?

[valid geyser]

seems like holidays are when people are too busy for d&d at least on my end

[woven flint]

Cleric is like...
The second best caster in the game that isn't a wizard "clone" (Stares at sorcerer)

[valid geyser]

really doesnt help i have a thursday game which is christmas day and new years day

[copper mist]

on what planet is monk worse than barbarian

[lost flicker]

I don't need to change your opinion, it wasn't on my to-do list today, but Ranger from a design standpoint was objectively bad. in matter of personal opinion I couldn't care less but Ranger at its core is just a Fighter subclass

[upbeat tapir]

This is pretty common knowledge in the optimization community.
Some of these are close, like Cleric vs Druid, and Rogue vs Monk is very close too.

[uncut zenith]

I actually agree that, if Oathbreaker is gonna be a playable option, it shouldn’t be a Paladin

[valid geyser]

i think rangers by the metric of getting scraps from the druid subclass lets them at least have something

[lost flicker]

Oathbreaker shouldn't be a playable option but if it was going to be a playable option it absolutely should be a Paladin because other classes don't have OATH'S and if you are playing a class without an OATH then you're not an OATHBREAKER you're just some GUY

[woven flint]

It really wouldnt make sense for an Oathbreaker to still be considered a Paladin tbh

[copper mist]

in the optimisation community you must all be on crack because monk does 4 attacks at level 5

[upbeat tapir]

You're welcome to make better builds and prove everyone wrong.

[valid geyser]

i think on the topic of oathbreakers
it just needs a different name. Oathbreaker is such an awful misnomer, because oathbreakers arent just paladins without oaths. Oathbreakers betray it to pursue evil. I dont think the name gets that idea around

[woven flint]

Ah, yes ....
Optimizers

[copper mist]

go a bugbear take any feat that gives you hex or hunters mark then at level 5 you’re rolling 4d8+4d8+4d6

[uncut zenith]

I don’t think 2014 Ranger was poorly designed. The issue was that it was designed to place an emphasis on the Exploration pillar, which isn’t a pillar that’s gained a lot of official support from WOTC. So the DM had to put in extra work to make rangers shine.

[valid geyser]

should've been called oath of the blackguard or something to call back to the 3.5 antipaladin prestiege class

[copper mist]

+modx4

[woven flint]

Wait, what the hell?
Who in the hell in any optimization space would say Monk is your worst pick?!

[copper mist]

and you have 16ac no armor

[valid geyser]

yeah optimizers like monks for a handful of their tashas features

[copper mist]

yeah idk what this dude is smoking

[upbeat tapir]

Only happens when you win initiative.
And that's still less damage than good Fighter or ranger builds.

[copper mist]

and also whatever you hit is stunned

[copper mist]

no it’s literally not

not less damage i mean it is only if you win initiative

if only it was a DEX based class that gets initiative proficiency

that would really make it work but unfortunately monk is int based

[upbeat tapir]

CBE + Sharpshooter alone already come very close to beating it.
If you add class and subclass features to this, you blow it out of the water.
At a range of 120 feet as opposed to being melee locked lol

[copper mist]

be a kensei and do the same thing but 4 times instead of 2

[upbeat tapir]

You can't attack 4 times as a Kensei with a longbow, only 3 times

[copper mist]

my mistake

i don’t see how that disproves my point though

[upbeat tapir]

Kensei is a very good subclass though, it makes Monk punch far above its weight class.

[valid geyser]

yeah I agree with that. My bigger issue with 2024 ranger is that it feels like they removed stuff from it and didn't add enough unique stuff. 2024 ranger having no lands stride or second level 3 feature to replace primeval awareness does sting to me
not saying they needed those features but I just kinda wish ranger had a couple more unique class features but thats just my opinion

[lost flicker]

Ranger is just a Fighter that likes animals and really hates that guy in particular. I fully believe that WoTC had issues with supporting the exploration pillar which made things worse than they otherwise would be, but creating a class centered around niche mechanics that aren't properly supported is bad game design, not to mention how bonus action heavy it is- they gave Ranger everything as its bonus action and then were still like "but also do your entire subclass using that BA"

[copper mist]

this is just a dumb conversation i’m going to bed you have no idea what you’re on about

[upbeat tapir]

Though it's still less damage than a CBE + SS Battle Master Fighter btw

[woven flint]

So, Timmy's dad is a Ranger? 🤔

Dinkleberg...!

[copper mist]

once again 3 is more than 2

[lost flicker]

litewally

[copper mist]

also what’s your argument for barbarian over monk then

[upbeat tapir]

Both of these builds make 3 attacks per round, but the Fighter does it without spending a resource

[lost flicker]

anyway I did come in here initially because I just got the Trials of Tempus D&D board game and was wondering if anyone had played it and wanted to give their opinion

[uncut zenith]

Yeah, features like that were good ribbon features if anything, but I feel like losing them kinda took away from some of the Ranger’s identity. Now Ranger kinda just feels like a Fighter with limited Druidic magic. It’s mechanically more sound for combat, but I wish they’d just lean into the identity of them being top notch explorers over being top notch combatants.

[woven flint]

Monks can also make three attacks per round without expending a resource

[copper mist]

remind me which resource monk uses

[knotty pasture]

Then we kickstarted a whole optimization talk that was a bit too interesting to read

[copper mist]

the invisible one that proves your point

[upbeat tapir]

Ki points.
You have to spend ki points to trigger the BA attack with a longbow (or a gun)

[woven flint]

Flurry of blows requires a resource, but the regular bonus unarmed strike is a Bonus action

[knotty pasture]

Coupled with some snarking of course, what is optimization talk without snarking

[valid geyser]

I do think that just pure immunity to difficult terrain as a class feature wouldve been really fun to give rangers as a unique thing

[copper mist]

snark snark

[upbeat tapir]

Well a regular unarmed strike won't do nearly as much damage as a BA attack from a hand crossbow with sharpshooter

[woven flint]

I think we're looking from different perspectives as well

2014 Monk and 2024 Monk are two different animals

[valid geyser]

I also imagined stuff like, an herbalism based feature or the like because that's very ranger-y and it might be some nice support. Possibly a little specific of a base class flavor but I kind of envisioned another level 5 feature that lets an ally have advantage on a couple specific saving throws or something for an hour or so

[upbeat tapir]

2024 Monk has no equivalent to the 2014 Kensei Musket/Longbow build which uses optional features from Tasha's that aren't present in 2024 Monk.

[woven flint]

Well..
You can use 2014 subclasses that aren't updated with 2024 classes, so....

[valid geyser]

i mean with 2024 that's less needed since CBE/SS are no longer the meta

[upbeat tapir]

SS has been nerfed in 2024 so of course. And there's no compensation for it, so overall ranged damage is worse than it was before

[valid geyser]

which is fine in my book
and ranged weapons have competitive damage die with melee anyway

[upbeat tapir]

Haven't crunched the numbers on melee damage though, that might be slightly higher (especially some Barb+Fighter multiclasses)

[nova trellis]

Personally, I would've just gave rangers access to maneuvers with a few unique ones to them dedicated to exploration. That would one, give them access to ambush maneuver which gloomstalkers could stack, giving them A LOT of extra initiative. Give them a lot of wiggle room with both range and melee since maneuvers work on both and give WOTC an excuse to rework their spells to include a lot more flavorful stuff instead of bog standard damaging and CC spells.

[woven flint]

I'm sorry, I mean this will all due respect, but don't you think optimization and looking at it from a what's "best" perspective damage wise kinda just...
Ignores the other strengths of a class?

[lost flicker]

two problems with that

1, it further supports that Ranger should just be a Fighter subclass
2, because Ranger isn't a Fighter subclass, that means its just stepping on Fighter's toes, which isn't very cool either

[upbeat tapir]

I wasn't aware that any of these classes have been given spellcasting

[valid geyser]

also i think rangers have half casting, so idk if they need both that and maneuvers

[woven flint]

What

As in.. class.. FEATURES

[idle oar]

Gentle reminder that we do have #optimization if folks want to really discuss optimization

This channel is meant for for D&D discussions that don’t fit in an existing channel

See #channel-guide

I can’t wait for my friend’s campaign to start up again after the holidays. Reaching end game now…

[lost flicker]

I just got the Trials of Tempus boardgame, was wondering if anyone here has played it and would be willing to offer their opinions on it?

[nova trellis]

I understand both of those concerns and frankly. Agree. My changes would also extend to fighters. If I could have it my way. Maneuvers would be the equivalent of spellcaster spells and martials would have differing maneuver lists like spellcasters with differing spell lists. Fighters woukd be more combat focused while rangers would have more exploration focused maneuvers. Maneuvers that would synergize with Rangers base features.

[uncut zenith]

Yeah, I’m ready to pick my campaign back up. We left off on a pretty big narrative moment and my party’s all been chomping at the bit to get back into it.

[lost flicker]

I love that concept actually

[woven flint]

I mean..
The best we got with 2024 is weapon masteries and Barbarians and Rogues being able to forgo something to have extra effects...

HELP ME.. HEEL-

[valid geyser]

that kinda just sounds like 4th edition powers to me. Not a bad thing btw

[woven flint]

I wish.. literally every martial got a unique thing to do If they sacrificed doing something else

I think it'd introduce an interesting tactical dynamic :3 (for martials)

[spring light]

just re-inventing paths of war and spheres of power

[woven flint]

Man make wheel, man smart!

Dude, man made the wheel thousands of years ago, get with the program!

It's almost like some of the things that older editions had were.. actually cool concepts?!
Wotc, when will you have foresight instead of hindsight?!

[nova trellis]

Another nice thing about allowing maneuver access to all martials is that maneuvers are riders. They simply ride along with other actions. It doesn't eat your bonus actions or main actions. Problem with half casters or martials who use A LITTLE bit of magic is action economy. Way of of four elements monk is a perfect example. The extra special elemental stuff you do mess with your normal ki features which tend to be better.

Way of Four Elementals is a bloody mess of design.

[humble cairn]

Good thing they changed it?

[nova trellis]

I'm forever 2014 so do tell.

[valid geyser]

four elements also sucked because it was just so costly. It's basically impossible to adequately assign spells to ki/focus. It's usually too expensive to be useful

[valid geyser]

we just kind of got a different monk subclass with elemental flavor
the level 3 is just kind of getting 10 foot reach and being able to do energy damage with your unarmed for ten minutes

[timid current]

it's fun and good like most of the 2024 changes

if you aren't super interested, I don't know that selling you on it is going to be a worthy use of time though

[humble cairn]

Well they no longer cast spells, they have ways to control elements after spending Focus to enter basically a elemental stance which allows them to use the elements to strike enemies at 15 feet, pushing them around and even Grappling at that range.

And then later being able to use the elements to blast areas and fly.

[timid current]

one bitter pill for me to swallow going into 2024 is that a lot of my complaints about 2014 were fixed, just in different ways than I thought they would be so they didn't seem like so at first

[valid geyser]

2024 elements monk is just kinda there for me
it's nice, it's good, just not for me, but i also just dont love playing monks

[timid current]

I used to be like "maneuvers for everyone" but 2024 works really well without that

[valid geyser]

for fifth edition, I don't love love maneuvers for everyone. I think if I wanted something like that, I'd homebrew in mighty deeds from DCC, fits my style of d&d a little more while keeping what I like about playing martials (minimal bookkeeping)

[timid current]

masteries, even without weapon switching, are far more significant than I had expected. second wind got second life with both more uses and more things that happen with those uses

[lavish flame]

I'm still on team "Maneuvers for everyone" tbh

[lusty kelp]

Weapon Masteries feel like maneuvers for everyone to me. I don't get why people disagree really, but eh. To each their own.

I just want more Masteries available.

[valid geyser]

yeah I like masteries a lot from a gameplay sense, I like the ones that give martial characters saves they can hit someone with every turn

[timid current]

I'dlean more "Maneuvers for all fighters" but also I'd bump the brutal strikes and cunning strikes for barbs and rogues down to like level 5

[valid geyser]

same I'd have liked two more masteries, because for a couple weapons it seems a little arbitrary which mastery they get

idk theres too many vex and sap weapons. I remember being really annoyed when I wanted to have both a longsword and flail on me learning they have the same mastery

[lavish flame]

same. I'd also just prefer if other folks got similar stuff. I like Monk Focus Points and Rogues sacrificing Sneak Attack damage for an extra effect, but I wish it came online sooner

[timid current]

I wish they hadn't reversed course on standardizing subclass levels

[lusty kelp]

I kinda want to build taunts and warlord-style stuff into Masteries

[timid current]

rogues getting stuff at reasonable levels would have been a delight

[valid geyser]

yeah masteries as a fighter specific class feature is my preferred midground
it would've been that way if it weren't for those meddling playtesters in like 2013

[lusty kelp]

And I would have gotten away with it too, if it wasn't for you meddling playtesters! And your dogs too!

:rips mask off:

Old Man Deller!

[valid geyser]

for some classes it kinda made it worse
i know cleric level 8 in 2014 is a little nothingburger but man its not fun to say clerics have an 11 level gap between subclass features in 2024

[static nest]

what happens if someone touch an object that have the magic heat metal on? of just very hot from other reason, to be clear i dont mean in case of holding or waering
like for example going to lift up a coin, but immediately let go bcs of the heat
so it very brief touch. would u say it it still full damage? as in 2d8?

[humble cairn]

Generally if you want to know how a rule works you'll want to ask in #dnd-rules, but they're just going to tell you that spells do what they say they do.

[valid geyser]

i mean that technically counts as physical contact, but I'd probably rule it as it being any prolonged contact
It's also visibly really hot, so it's not much like you can trick someone with it

[static nest]

i ask bcs i think on how it will be for a werwolf to touch silver

[upbeat tapir]

That's an entirely separate question though

[static nest]

maybe to give it a dex save?

[static nest]

there is mechanic/rules abut that?

[humble cairn]

Do you have access to the spell? https://www.dndbeyond.com/spells/2619145-heat-metal

[static nest]

yes

[umbral girder]

Yeah the damage is only activated in a bonus action from the caster last I checked

[humble cairn]

Ok so what does it say about when the damage is applied?

[lavish flame]

saaaaame

3, 7, 10, 14, 18 for everybody wouldve been peak

[upbeat tapir]

When cast they take dmg and then if they are still in physical contact the caster can take a bonus action to apply the damage again.

[cursive thorn]

They only were asking about heat metal as a hypothetical to try to apply it to Silver against a werewolf.

[umbral girder]

So it wouldn’t do anything in Wolf’s situation

[lusty kelp]

Honestly, just mroe subclass levels for everyone would be peak

[sullen ingot]

When did we reverse course?

[upbeat tapir]

I wish subclasses were a bit more defining.

[rough basalt]

Well more subclass levels for certain classes would mean other features need to be removed or nerfed

[valid geyser]

No paladin subclass capstone will be sad, but it is a sacrifice I can make for the rogues and bards in the world

[minor cargo]

(Not sure if it was mentioned, but silver affects werewolves differently in 2024. So not sure if that’s relevant.)

[rough basalt]

Cause classes with fewer subclass levels generally have some consistent, powerful or a lot of base features instead

Like Rogue has a billion base features and an extra feat so it only has a few subclass ones

[timid current]

during the playtesting for 2024 update, the classes all got subclass levels at the same time, and so the classes were much better aligned in power progression. people complained and WOTC was like "oh dang this very vocal bunch doesn't like it" and went back on it

[rough basalt]

Doesn't surprise me

That sounds a bit too streamlined

[static nest]

u right, if it really from the spell it clear (unless it not in combat, and then what is BA?)
but like a I clarified before, i think to use this to a base for a damage silver cuse werwolf

[timid current]

it sounds wonderful to me, I like streamlining. I don't know what the benefit of making things jankier is

[sullen ingot]

I don’t remember this at all but then I came to 5e from 3.5 when then 2024 books showed up in my LGS so I guess I never had the opportunity to see it

[lusty kelp]

I liked the warlock half-caster too. But I'm not in the majority rule

[rough basalt]

Well if everyone gets the same features at the same levels then more uniqueness goes out the door.
Of course you also need to remove a lot of class features to make up for more subclass features.

[static nest]

maybe it more for #homebrew unless there somewhere rules/mechanics for silver and werwolf

[timid current]

no uniqueness doesn't go out the door, you're inventing a problem here. the whole point of redesigning the classes allows for that adjustment to be made

[spring light]

is there specific silver damage in 5e?

[lavish flame]

You just need to move them around, and even then, there's no rule saying "You can't get a Subclass feature and a Class feature in the same level"

[valid geyser]

i also assume it was because the original intent of 2024 was adenture compatability with 2014 then they shifted to just full compatability

[timid current]

the thing of it is, this was during a time when the class features were being redesigned and in many cases having levels changed anyways

[rough basalt]

True but classes with fewer subclass features get more base features instead so those features will need to be removed for balance reasons or more features added to subclass heavy classes

[static nest]

now that i check, werewolf are not even vulnerable to silvered weapon

[timid current]

then change them?

[spring light]

then you are definitely getting into #homebrew territory

[lavish flame]

id be hesitant to make something vulnerable on the fly tbh

[timid current]

anyways, it's all for nothing anyways, they just decided not to make things better in that way

[spring light]

vulnerable to flies

[valid geyser]

in 2024, the silver weapon item itself has the feature that hurts shapeshifters. Its not in the statblock

[rough basalt]

Well removing you can potentially end up gutting a classes identity too much for staying in the same edition.
And adding you end up making the system potentially crunchier than they intend to.

[lavish flame]

the Mummy Lord is vulnerable to Fire, and it trivializes that fight once you find out about it.

[timid current]

there's that word

"Gutting" lmao. I think that must be the most commonly used word when it comes to complaints about changes to anything in D&D

[valid geyser]

yeah vulnerability is rough, and theres a reason its so rare in monsters

[timid current]

(also they didn't remove things for the playtest rogue, just changed levels around)

[rough basalt]

Well that was a first playtest they would of had to expand on it.

[timid current]

I wonder what youtuber back in the day made "Gutting" the phrase for "change I don't want to like"

that's more a non-dnd question though

[rough basalt]

Well gutting in a balance sense means metaphorically ripping something into pieces and leaving it a mess that's barely recognizable.

[timid current]

yeah, and that's noty really something that happened or was happening

[umbral girder]

No there is a silvered weapon damage for specific monsters

[rough basalt]

In games it usually means when a character gets overly nerfed to the point they can't do what they're intended to.

[naive cedar]

Doesnt gutting mean essentially nerfing

[timid current]

ah, so again, nothing that was happening. in fact it was improving rogues lmao

[rough basalt]

Yep, you can gut the identity of stuff.

[lusty kelp]

its a bit stronger than nerfing, but fundamentally the same thing, yes

[timid current]

(rogues were getting improved and got more roguey with the playtesting)

[naive cedar]

Did the term gutting originate from competitive games?

[minor cargo]

I’ve always found the “troll fire weakness” to work better in D&D. That is, use a damage type to deactivate a key ability - but it’s still a troll that can rip you apart.

I think vulnerability is just keyed too high for the numbers D&D has (ie. probably vulnerability = +2d6 works better or something).

[rough basalt]

Potentially?

[timid current]

unless the identity relies entirely on waiting longer than everyone else to get subclass features.

[valid geyser]

i assume it comes from fish

[naive cedar]

that might be why it’s being misused

[rough basalt]

Hero shooters probably popularized the phrase

[timid current]

which never really struck me as part of the unique identity of rogue

[lusty kelp]

I mean, its part of the english language. i don't know when it started applying to games, but its been refered to things like organizations or people or stores for a long time

[sullen ingot]

I mean… cleric and warlock should get subclasses at level 1 if that’s the concern

[rough basalt]

Yeah but for balance reasons they would've had to remove some of rogues features they add cause they don't get many subclass features.
Or they would've had to give Paladin (classes that are defined by subclass) more base features to compensate.

[naive cedar]

yeah ik. I mean it being used in a gaming context. I ask because people have a tendency to misuse gaming terms once they cross genres

[timid current]

was rogue ahead of the game before? or would changing subclass levels have brought them up to a good medium point

[rough basalt]

Which means either changing something potentially too much to be considered a revisal or making the game crunchier.

[valid geyser]

yeah I think for vulnerability specifically I'd have much preferred it it was a damage additive than just a multiplier
I loathe making pathfinder comparisons here, but i think thats my favorite way of handling resistances/vulnerability because its just "Add the number listed in the monsters vulnerability to the damage roll"

[timid current]

actually never mind, sorry. nothing is going to change. I need to go get coffee. have a wonderful rest of the conversation

[valid geyser]

definitely helps on the time saving front as well

[umbral girder]

Amusingly Flee, Mortals also messes with this. If I remember correctly Vampires just take a flat bonus radiant damage

[lusty kelp]

I'm not sure its a specific gaming term anyways. Gutting- ripping the heart out of things - works for games as much as it does anything else.

[rough basalt]

MMOs probably birthed the gaming phrase of it

Cause sometimes MMO devs would just straight ruin certain class/subclasses

[naive cedar]

the term nerf comes from ultima online

[valid geyser]

sure enough, its because of 4e

[rough basalt]

Like certain specs in WoW in certain expacs wouldn't be allowed in endgame content LFGs cause Blizzard ripped their innards out and left them to die.

[lusty kelp]

nerf is slgithly different, because the only other non-gaming use is foam dart guns. Gutting a game doesn't need specific in-group lexicon to understand what it means

[upbeat tapir]

I ran that monster in a campaign of mine for a few groups. I had to buff its health quite a bit so that it can pose a challenge. (I am talking about the 2014 MM version of the Mummy Lord).

[naive cedar]

blizzard: gutting characters for no reason since 2004 🥰

[rough basalt]

Me when I ruin a class cause I'm bored

[naive cedar]

me when I ruin the most popular character in my game because idk potatoes

[valid geyser]

yeah most 2014 caster boss type monsters are awfully frail because wotc expected them not to be solo encounters and just didnt tell DMs not to use them for solo encounters

[rough basalt]

Ye 2014 core rules had a lot of aspects that expected a lot of DMs to just figure out on their own

Or just to "know"

[umbral girder]

4e being a contributing cause of Flee, Mortals!, Draw Steel, and Daggerheart will always amuse me.

[rough basalt]

4e is the base/inspiration for a lot of the 'popular' other ttrpgs

[valid geyser]

realistically a lich should be fought alongside death knights, but its not like anything says that

[uncut zenith]

That’s kinda why I like that they streamlined casting monsters in 2024. I don’t miss the 2014 casters with full spell lists, I’m happy to just have a small list of spells they’ll be using in combat.

[umbral girder]

Or 17+ skeletons /jk

[rough basalt]

I agree.
I also think it makes changing their spells easier

"Alright the Archmage has 1 cast of a 9th level version of a 5th level spell so they can cast up to 9th level once per day. So let's givem a 9th level Finger of Death instead since they're an Archmage Necromancer"

[hot marlin]

How a lich should be fought depends a lot on the specific lich and the context of the fight, and while death knights are an obvious addition, there's a narrative matter at play. A death knight is not a flunky, a death knight is a boss with agency and its own story by itself.

[valid geyser]

yeah i dont think many people like having to track a whole spell list for their NPCs
I remember talking with someone who mostly plays ad&d and they were like "yeah thats for the better i hate having to prepare spells on NPCs"

[rough basalt]

Tho that does make them a bit weaker since Cone of Cold is an aoe

But I feel like it's more easier to adapt from there

As opposed to whole spell lists

[uncut zenith]

It also helps when you look at it from the mentality that statblocks are intended to be used for combat. There’s nothing saying an Archmage can’t cast a scrying or identify spell for the party, but why would they need those spells if they’re in combat? It’s just taking up space on the statblock.

[valid geyser]

i was moreso saying that with the 2014 rules, a lich should not be fought alone and needs to be run alongside minions that steal attention away from it. I just figure death knights as the most fitting example

[umbral girder]

I had a Kas the Bloody Handed boss fight and I gave him 4 Death Knight aspirants and some of the Warlord stat block abilities since it felt fitting.

[rough basalt]

Ever since I started just changing statblocks for my own means I've been enjoying myself a lot

Like there's a Bandit leader who beat the party in my Monday game so next time they come across him, I gave him an uplift and gave him features from the Blackguard (evil paladin) statblock

Which fits his whole thing he's got going on

[buoyant oar]

Kas is better suited with many minions on the Field than alone

I would know.

He's me.

[hot marlin]

Oh that, absolutely.

Although, while many bosses are best used with minions, it's worth bearing in mind that you shouldn't force it. If the PCs manage to separate and ambush the creature away from its minions, the PCs should get the reward of fighting it alone

[uncut zenith]

That’s why I like boss monsters that have summoning abilities

Though I agree, if the party’s able to corner a boss and the boss is alone and has no means of summoning minions, then they just get to solo the boss

[rough basalt]

I feel like for caster bosses I like having some summoning mechanic

Like one I had four summoning sigils around the arena and every round an enemy would be summoned from it

[tall delta]

How is the spell fire sorcerer wanting to try it out

[rough basalt]

It's on my list

[potent siren]

Nothing is more scary than having some sort of archmage drop a Gate spell to call a otherplanar eidolon when the fight is just getting started

[hot marlin]

But I don't tend to like big boss monsters that the entire party focuses on. My favourite fights have always been against a large amount of monsters. I'm dying to have a fight where the "main" monster is being buffed by something like fifteen different casters using circle casting and throwing other spells at the party

[valid geyser]

in my opinion, it's pretty weak. Especially with the higher level features

Id rather spend the extra sorcery point to quicken a cantrip as a bonus action then deal 1d4 damage

[serene jolt]

Takes notes

[uncut zenith]

My favorite types of “boss fights” are where the boss monster isn’t actually the villain, but rather something being controlled by the villain

[buoyant oar]

Buffers are great also objective boss fights.

Boss is unkillable until an objective is met.

[serene jolt]

I always have minions with a boss but the casters buffing the boss sounds pretty fun. Then it makes the party decide if they want to target the boss or the casters to make the boss weaker to finish it.

[real coral]

I like both things, to be honest. Fighting something controlled by the villain first, making your way through the joint, and fighting the villain at the center. I'd imagine it gives a lot more incentive to chase the wicked freak down, given the individual being controlled is innocent or heroic and forced to turn against their crew

[serene jolt]

I want to do an ender dragon type thing. Where there are things to take out before you can start actually killing the boss, but they have to figure out what exactly that is.

[knotty pasture]

Can always take inspiration from a certain boss in bg3

Invincible until you do a bunch of quests

[buoyant oar]

Fail conditions are good too

Boss Is trying to summon something powerful in X Rounds. If you don't stop him in X Rounds you just lose or something really really bad happens.

[serene jolt]

Oooh that'd be cool

[river frost]

Hey all! I'm not sure if this would be a question for here or #character-discussion , but in a campaign coming up, I'm going to be playing an Artillerist Artificer, with the plan on dipping into Kensei Monk, and was wondering what the opinions on the functionality of that are?

[serene jolt]

Like fetch (or destroy) these items and you can kill him. Like Voldemort style.

[knotty pasture]

Though since its a video game you kind of just need to follow the steps instead of shooting the boss as soon as you see them

[burnt valley]

Would you reward the party if they somehow manage to beat it?

[uncut zenith]

Or kinda like the fight in an early 5E adventure module where fighting the boss is near impossible, but disrupting its ritual weakens it

[serene jolt]

To me, not a worthwhile choice. They both rely on separate stats and monk abilities don't do much for an Artificer imo.

But this is a character discussion thing I think

[humble cairn]

That would be a #character-discussion topic.

[real coral]

ooh, this just reminded me
Bosses like the Roaring Knight seem really interesting. Bosses that you're not supposed to beat under most circumstances, but if you've managed to gather enough power to where you CAN beat them, you're rewarded heavily

[burnt valley]

Yes yes

That or beaten through sheer skill

[rough basalt]

I'm ashamed to admit I let one more round occur to avoid a fail state one time I used one.

[burnt valley]

Oh why?

[ripe path]

hi

where is the questions/newbie chats?

[burnt valley]

#dnd-newcomers

[rough basalt]

I was too worried to fail

I instead compromised a bit tho behind the scenes and kept a lasting consequence.

[burnt valley]

Alrighty

[rough basalt]

Still tho I need to shed my fear of punishing players for the greatest mistake of all

Rolling poorly.

[burnt valley]

Lol

[echo yacht]

😂

[crimson gulch]

Your not punishing poor rolls the dice are

[vagrant quartz]

I think I had a stroke reading that

[glossy otter]

quick question as I had recieved this question from one of my players and it had me thinking. Are there witches in dnd?

[knotty pasture]

As a npc yea

[atomic kayak]

yes there are

but witch can cover a broad range of things mechanically - including PC options

[glossy otter]

i thought hags were technically them until a module had stats for a stereotypical witches, though I know druids do go a little into more traditional (as far as I've seen)

[knotty pasture]

What defines a witch anyways

[vagrant quartz]

Beeing able to rock a pointy hat is one indicator

[knotty pasture]

Isn't that more of a Wizard thing

[crimson gulch]

Yes, there's several specific witch's in the game

And just I'm general the idea of a witch is very present, hags are very witchy

[vagrant quartz]

One indicator,

[knotty pasture]

True

[vagrant quartz]

They don't wear the pointy hat!

[crimson gulch]

Many do

[vagrant quartz]

All the hags I've seen aren't wearing the cool hat

[potent siren]

hard to say if there is a specific classification for "witch" specifically in 5e. Certain spell caster builds or certain monsters like Hags can certainly fit the stereotype though

[vagrant quartz]

Question , are there young hags? While I know young witches exist I've yet to learn of a young hag

[crimson gulch]

Yeah, they aren't born old

[rough basalt]

You certainly could make one young

[potent siren]

I know that there are hag spawns, idk very much about hags

[vagrant quartz]

How whould they look like

[crimson gulch]

However you like

[vagrant quartz]

Elphaba but ugly?

[rough basalt]

The old man old woman appearance, at least my understanding is to get people to lower their guard

[ancient linden]

Hello

[rough basalt]

Cause whose gonna be suspicious of a helpless old person.

[vagrant quartz]

Soo you're saying, I need to make CHILD HAGS

[rough basalt]

I wouldn't unless your table is fine with it

[vagrant quartz]

Yes I see! Genius!

[ancient linden]

What are yall talking about

[vagrant quartz]

Hags

And witches

[ancient linden]

Oh ok

Your a bard

[vagrant quartz]

Yes

[rough basalt]

As for a "witch" in dnd.
Any of the arcane casters pretty much

[ancient linden]

Umm I have a question

[timid current]

witch also carries all kinds of varying connotations depnding on which cultures and which trends you're chasing

[rough basalt]

Now, PFs witch class is the same as DnD Warlock so there's that

[ancient linden]

Could a ware beast be a meerkat

[vagrant quartz]

Isn't Tasha a witch?

[rough basalt]

You could call her that

[vagrant quartz]

Or am I misremembering stuff again

[limber prairie]

Tasha, my beloved

[rough basalt]

And she probably wouldn't deny that

[timid current]

you get the weird child eating lady of the woods in VVITCH, or sandra bullock and nicole kidman in practical magic, or bella ramsay in worst witch, or "a woman who is slightly inconvenient to her neighbour" in the 1600s, etc etc etc

[ancient linden]

Is any dnd campaigns happening today?

Or starting

[vagrant quartz]

Tbf in 1600 any woman with a laryngitis whould get called a witch

[timid current]

almost every culture has "witches" and many cultures' witches also come in a varity of "styles"

[rough basalt]

Any woman who has something another woman wants as well