dnd-discussion

[uncut sentinel]

Eh. I think the value is self-evident, publicly funded, and communally shepherded. So no, appreciated, not underrated.

[olive wasp]

I don’t have my glasses, not that I need them but I still don’t have them

Build one

Just start doin stuff

[plucky flame]

building one at my home

[uncut sentinel]

a library? or

[plucky flame]

50 books only so far

[uncut sentinel]

guttenberg project

[plucky flame]

library, and even if I did have one I am pretty sure it wont have dnd related stuff

[uncut sentinel]

only library you need

[plucky flame]

hate e-reading

[olive wasp]

You never know, my library growing up had a computer with a skateboard game on it so anything is possible

[uncut sentinel]

same lol

[olive wasp]

They also had Pokemon manga books that was cool

[uncut sentinel]

Accursed blue light devil! Why can't I slay thee with my mind bullets? Why do you evade my every stratagem?

[olive wasp]

Behold you have to kill it at its source! Dont pay the electric bill and you’ll prevail!

[humble cairn]

Mostly unwarranted and then overblown.

[uncut sentinel]

I don't have to do anything there. Climate change will resolve that in under 100 years. #2real

[olive wasp]

Nonsense climate change isn’t real, I’ve never seen him in person

[uncut sentinel]

Yeah you're right, when that Congressional Wizard cast Snowball that one time on C-Span, I converted

(really did happen X)

[olive wasp]

Magic casting in congressional hearings is just distasteful

[uncut sentinel]

Legislator's love Mage Hand

[olive wasp]

Time and place people, looking at you chronomancers

[plucky flame]

i hate it when the speaker casts circle of truth

[uncut sentinel]

Sorry I play an anachronomancer

a play on the word "anachronistic"

I read too many books

[olive wasp]

Thank you, I’m not good with big words I’m not an English major

[uncut sentinel]

That's right, you're majoring in Triviality & Jocularity

I forgot

[olive wasp]

I’m majoring in playing in the snow

Minoring in reindeer games

[uncut sentinel]

My favorite government spells are propaganda and false dichotomy. Failsafe.

[olive wasp]

Government spell prestidigitation to save them from using all of those black highlighters

[uncut sentinel]

Unfortunately the MSoft Word counterspell is 2strong

[olive wasp]

Seems like your knowledgeable in technomancy

I cast MS PAINT DRAWING

[uncut sentinel]

Actually my real school of magic is Aloof Guy on Tree Branch. Yeah you can see me up here, and yeah there's nothing going on up here either.

[olive wasp]

The Diogenes school, very nice indeed

[uncut sentinel]

That's an interesting pantheon question. D&D used to look at that stuff. Thinking of...On Hallowed Ground 2e

[olive wasp]

Wait look at what stuff? Philosophers?

[uncut sentinel]

No. Creation myths.

The treatment is crude but still interesting to look at.

[uncut sentinel]

Since you had me thinking about antiquity, my mind bounced back to D&D and what was actually examined under this lens, and that sourcebook was one of the last deepdives (or the only) that I know of. Might be more, idk.

[dawn storm]

Just for safety, nobody trust @trail kraken

thats my hacked account

[atomic trench]

Ello everyone

[olive wasp]

Okay! I trust you on that. I’ll send over my information to you

[olive wasp]

Ahh gotcha

[uncut sentinel]

Unfamiliar with the idea and practice of trust. Alien, other. So no worries here.

[olive wasp]

Ello good chap

[dawn storm]

works for me

[uncut sentinel]

what did the turtle say to the roof rat?

[olive wasp]

Hello

Because it’s a formal greeting

[uncut sentinel]

"slow your roll."

This terrible joke brought to you by

[olive wasp]

This program is funded by viewers like you. Thank you!

[uncut sentinel]

Do you have a fav philosopher? Curious.

[olive wasp]

Ooooooooooo I love nietzsche’s philosophy but not him that much

I love his points that you should follow morals that you truly believe in not just follow what is taught to you. He emphasizes passion and commitment to endeavors and that life will be fulfilling when you discover purpose for yourself

Nietzsche was actually against nihilism, he said that it should be avoided at all costs. He thought you should develop meaning in life and love it

[keen valve]

I'm more into Thích Nhất Hạnh, or D.T. Suzuki, and other folk like that.

Also, why are we talking philosophy stuff in D&D's discord?

[olive wasp]

Ah they weren’t covered in my ethics course but I’m sure that they have some cool ideas

[uncut sentinel]

Nilhilism is a void, even if it has some objective merit. To return this to D&D and also drop a name, I love Hobbes (and David Hume, diff story for a diff day), but only a little. The most important part of Leviathan (for me) is a little piece in its beginning: names and definitions; all we have, all that orders meaning; mix them up, nonsense, disorder, imposed meaning on a meaningless universe now lost.

So I do agree with that. We are what we name, define, become predisposed to, live out with choice, then habit, which is maybe the foremost law for our species. How is this related to D&D? Well, I see the imagination as a foil to Hobbe's grim nature-state (amended after my own style): life can be nasty, brutish, and long, if you habitually choose that (internally). most do. let the paradigm be ever shifting instead maybe, undefined; like the allure of truly excellent tabletop gaming: we don't know what's waiting at that table, but dammit, it's gonna be fun.

[keen valve]

I know I use it a lot in D&D to express morality and plot, but I'm just curious.

[keen valve]

They're a scholar and a monk/activist, reverse respectively. Philosophy isn't just for philosophers, so you should definitely branch out if you haven't yet. Look into artists, writers, and activists.

[olive wasp]

Oh wow, I mean it sounds very well educated. You’re certainly more knowledgeable in the field of philosophy than I am. Lot of concepts I haven’t learned but I was in an intro course

[uncut sentinel]

hah, I don't know shite. trust that. I'm a humble fox.

[uncut sentinel]

I've enjoyed reading Thich Nhat Hanh.

[olive wasp]

That’s true! It really isn’t, I mean the whole thing about philosophy is that we should create our own. We can follow to an extent what someone else believes but there’s always going to be a little variation because of your own experiences

Every philosopher is just a person whose ideas and thoughts were agreed with or seen as thought provoking and interesting. They’re thinkers just as we are, they just aimed to describe it and ask why and all that

[uncut sentinel]

Philosophy has a basic function: learning how to die. That's it. That's what it's for. If your association of ideas gives you joy, peace, balance, and fortitude, keep it. Whatever it is.

[olive wasp]

Well okay, sounds like you have a lot of experience in that field of knowledge then in terms of reading books and delving into concepts

[keen valve]

Small thing, I one day want to have players go on an adventure through a peaceful land. No intent for violent outbursts and war-torn countryside, just a peaceful land with the means for adventure. Something sweet, and nice. Things aren't perfect, but they are not horrifically horrible.

[olive wasp]

I mean it sounds nice

But what’s the drive then for the campaign

[sharp hedge]

Helloooooo

[glass granite]

Hallo

[uncut sentinel]

Cozy TTRPG.

[sharp hedge]

I wanna play and learn DND can anyone help ?

[uncut sentinel]

There's a market for that for sure. My wife is into cozy gaming.

[glass granite]

Read up on the first few chapters of the free basic rules on #learn-to-play , and feel free to ask any questions you might have. Then, make a practice character and get it reviewed in #character-discussion .
Once you’re ready and got the fundamentals down, you can check out #find-a-game for information on how to find a group online. To make a post, type the appropriate command in any chat channel.

Oh, and the folks in #dnd-newcomers should be able to help you out

[sharp hedge]

Thank you

[uncut sentinel]

For whatever reason, I lean dystopic

[keen valve]

I mean yeah it would be post apocalyptic fantasy, as in the earth 500 years later, all humans dead with walking talking animals, but I digress.

[uncut sentinel]

That's an amusing premise.

[keen valve]

That's what my Greyhelm setting was. A redwall inspired world but it was set 1000 years after humans vanished, causing a mixture of world disasters that led to a forward march in evolution and so forth. More people should do that, could be fun.

Let your worlds get utterly sacked.

[uncut sentinel]

Loved Redwall as a kid.

[keen valve]

I still love it, but no one ever runs a game for anything like it. I just want upright animal characters.

I just need someone to let me play Mr.Fox with his little vest and bowtie and silly spells.

[uncut sentinel]

I'll confess a small personal observation. In my time, which isn't much, some interesting and powerful ideas have taken root: we don't own what we think we own, it owns us; humans are the least mature species; and stewardship, not dominion, of planet and life was a possible outcome. If you take an honest, impartial look at where we are now, well, haha. Bit of an absurd joke, isn't it? We are the punchline.

[keen valve]

I'm a rakshasa so I wouldn't really know.
(Humorous, you may laugh.)

[uncut sentinel]

If only.

[keen valve]

I should play a rakshasa again though, fiends are fun characters.

[uncut sentinel]

not even sure if I have a fav fiend, I'll determine that now for the sake of relevant conversation

[olive wasp]

Humerus (helps me walk)

[keen valve]

Yes! Choose your favorite fiend! Take your time! There's loads of fun ones!

[uncut sentinel]

Barghest.

[keen valve]

Big dog fiend was not what I expected. I honestly thought you'd choose Arcanaloth.

They're a popular canine type, very stylish.

[uncut sentinel]

Didn't see it on the wiki

[keen valve]

They're under yugoloths.

[uncut sentinel]

Hah. I can see why you'd think that.

Yeah that's more me.

[uncut sentinel]

Thank you. D:

[keen valve]

The 5e art they got for em is just cute.

They really chose one fiend and said "Yeah we'll make him a soft cuddly nerd looking type who probably gets upset when he misplaces his scrolls."

[uncut sentinel]

The history tidbit is amusing.

Rakshasa's slandered by one telling having them descend from Arcanaloths.

[keen valve]

Dogs versus cats, even for fiends.

[umbral girder]

Oh yeah Arcanalolths are the guys wearing robes made of flesh and teeth right?

[uncut sentinel]

Source? Unable to confirm that via searches.

[umbral girder]

The Monster Manual 2024 have the gross looking robes on

[uncut sentinel]

o lol

[keen valve]

No I don't think so? They're the jackals.

[uncut sentinel]

I'll take a look, let's see

[umbral girder]

Ah looking at it that’s not flesh but some kind of hide

[keen valve]

Oh dang no you're right, it's some very aesthetic robes.

[umbral girder]

No they are foxes last I checked.

Actually hmm the 2024 art does make them more jackal like

[uncut sentinel]

Jackals, Coyotes, and Foxes are basically overlapping animals in a lot of oral traditions.

[keen valve]

They always looked a mix of jackal and fox, eitherway they always looks like someone canine fursona. I enjoy it a lot.

[uncut sentinel]

Tricksters make the world etc

[keen valve]

Now let me play them, Wizards. Let me play the magic canine people.

[umbral girder]

They steal them souls too. Neat magic dudes.

[uncut sentinel]

this has given me an idea

Souls or information? A rinse, repeat dilemma for my PCs.

They don't know it's a waylaid Arcanaloth on the material plane.

Decide to stop providing information, and well, hehe

[marsh lichen]

Hello! May I ask for some advice? I already did in newcomers chat but I think that chat is dead rn😅😅

[umbral girder]

It’s is rather late/early

Since this is a mostly North American server

[marsh lichen]

Trust me I know, I just can't sleep and haven't been able to get the any advice on this

[umbral girder]

The only advice is use #find-a-game

That’s the best you got as a Player.

[keen valve]

Wdym exactly? Like they encounter someone like that?

[marsh lichen]

Ok, thx anyway ig

[uncut sentinel]

Oh. In a nutshell, as lazily as I can put it, I had this frame for an interesting Cyric campaign. But this is so much more interesting. An Arcanaloth campaign in Cyric dressing.

[umbral girder]

Yeah it can take months as a Player if not longer to get a game.

Usually the easiest way is to just start as a DM, then you get a group in minutes.

[keen valve]

Just have a whole quest be because some sort of powerful creature was bored and wanted to see people do something interesting.

"Let's just go steal this dude's staff and have it go through all these sources so that I can be amused as the party has to figure out where it went."

For malice? No. For evil? No. For good? Absolutely not. Just entertainment.

[ivory shale]

dang, hate it when people lie 🥀

[umbral girder]

K

[uncut sentinel]

I think it's going to be a bit different. This will be a single Arcanaloth on the precipice of becoming the first Ultroloth. She is 99% there. All she needs: 10 more cultist souls and 1 Cyrinishad. The campaign itself will be a huge subterfuge, in which the PCs think they are up against Cyric and working with a righteous ally to oppose the Prince of Lies. The reality is darker.

[keen valve]

I long for a party to just run into a big bad evil character and they just go "Oh yeah! you got here, um... welcome? Thanks for doing all that, you can go now and here's your thing, that was fun watching."

[hot marlin]

Sometimes the enemy that just "wants to see what happens" can be quite interesting. It's basically Hannibal Lecter's entire motivation in the show.

[ivory shale]

sorry but a bit of a rant, but what is so hard to say " sorry, i dont think im enjoying this game " and then leave the game ? 🥀

[keen valve]

You gonna give them a choice of two evils or worse?

[ivory shale]

basically told me that " they're swamped with studies " then left the game.

then shortly after finding out theyre dming in another server

[uncut sentinel]

Not sure yet. TBD. Sometimes darkness is inevitable, and you get to live anyway.

[keen valve]

Tbf, I'll prioritize running my own game above playing others. If the latter takes up time? I'll drop that one.

[hot marlin]

Not necessarily a lie. They're swamped with studies, can't both follow your game and DM theirs

[umbral girder]

Eh that makes sense and not much of a lie

[keen valve]

Agreed, but having a choice in what evil succeeds can be equally as fun.

"Which evil is the least evil?" type of ordeal.

[umbral girder]

They just have to cut down bits of the schedule, not all of it.

[uncut sentinel]

Yeah. That's something to ponder. I think I'll give it 3 forks. Cyric wins, Arcanaloth wins, or the PCs devise a solution to trump both with tools and pathways I offer them.

[ivory shale]

fair

[keen valve]

I hope they choose some weird fourth option.

[uncut sentinel]

Haha.

[keen valve]

"Actually, we're putting out imp friend, Jimbo Jormbis in place as the supreme ruler of the realms."

[umbral girder]

They choose the Broom Closet Ending

[uncut sentinel]

haha

[umbral girder]

Where they just hang out in the Broom Closet so much the narrator leaves.

[uncut sentinel]

Hmmm.

A: Cyric prevails B: Arcanaloth prevails C: some weird shit I'm not planning for but will facilitate instead

[hot marlin]

Better to let Cyric prevail. He's Cyric, he'll find a way to turn his win into a loss

[uncut sentinel]

That's just the lie he keeps telling himself in Pandemonium lol

[hot marlin]

His entire life has essentially consisted of snatching defeat from the laws of victory

[uncut sentinel]

He's like a starving artist

Fun mind puzzle. I'm grateful for the inspiration.

Now for a title. Always tricky.

I think I got it: Obscura

GN. Time to game till a drive, then I pass out for the day.

I'm finally fully excited to build this adventure. Nothing delights me quite like underhanded labyrinths.

[keen valve]

You can justify all your losses as wins if you're insane enough.

Like rn, I'm currently in the right because I deserve to be right, and I'm the only logical and smart person here, and everyone else who suggest here naturally has to be wrong because they're fake internet people who don't know nothing.

(Not serious.)

[rough yoke]

💔

[raven basin]

The best kind of character fr
One who always manages to royally mess up

Whats your guys favorite trope in a campaign, or character?

[keen valve]

The expected to-be evil dude isn't evil at all.

Like a demon who's escaped from the whole "evil" business and resides on a small beach property in Chult.

Or the evil haggardly witch in the woods is legitimately just someone's grandmother who chose to live by herself.

We don't need big bad evils who are obviously evil all the time, I think having big great goods who look evil can be fun if used sparingly and correctly.

[hot marlin]

There's a trick to old women in the woods: If she's grumpy, she's a witch. If she's nice and talks about deals and payments she's a hag

[hot gate]

How to witchhunt innocent ladies in the forest 101

[high raft]

Dnd 2024 is Dnd with training wheels Basilisk now have to recharge their gaze? What?

[severe rampart]

What if they were actually a beautiful maiden cursed to have an old woman's body

[scarlet marsh]

So like Sheela na Gig

[hot marlin]

Then they're neither grumpy nor talk about deals

[hard crystal]

do you think that creating a druid that takes part in a sect would be a good idea? I made it so that they want to restore “universal balance”
it’s like my third character ever lol

[empty thicket]

I have in my head the idea of A Necromancer that is just a construction employer
He make a contract with the employs, give him a really good paid and services all their life and when they die. After all the ceremonies and stuff.
He summon the dead body and use it for build places.
The business is so successful he can give the people that sign his contract such good deal and stuff

and depending of the dead he would made it retain some of his life memory for doing some specific tasks better.

Would understand if in some religion//culture they burn//destroy the dead body or wont let it being summoned like a deadmen

[hot marlin]

The idea of contracts to sell one's body once you die to a necromancer is actually already part of planescape lore

That's what the dustmen are all about.

[empty thicket]

Neat and expected, still would do that character just for funnies.
"if you all kill them without.... turning them into a puzzle. I will pay you per dead body"

[keen valve]

Where does he get what they want is the big issue.

[royal lake]

You summoned me and so I came

[empty thicket]

how so?

[royal lake]

What equivelant spells?

What spells aren’t concentration, and also last 10 rounds and give temp hp every round?

Dragons, collosi, beholders, fiends

Pretty sure i’ve encountered enemies with a fear based shutdown in every game i’ve ever played

When you get it the ability maths out to 1d6 + 3 or
6.5 on average per round. Many enemies you’ll encounter (assuming you aren’t fighting one big enemy) do less damage than that in a hit, and the average character (assuming a d8 hit die to be average) with 16 con has 27 hp, that’s 24.1% of your max hit points every turn in temp hp

People have done surveys, and i’ll gamble most people here haven’t experienced level 20 play outside of one shots. Even if you do experience level 20 play, statistically if ANY games fall through at all, it’s still more statistically weight toward early levels in general just based off of logic. Especially because often level 20 means the end of the game.

You can also look at modules, which pretty much never end at level 20, which a significant amount of digital games, which are less weighted toward modules anyway, are modules, which generally end around level 12

Even if it’s not often someone plays a module, still tips the scale towards lower level play

2014 was where most of the twilight glaze came from (a level 1 character with heavy armor and shield prof with the sleep spell, healing word, ceremony, protection from evil and good and similar spells that grants 300 feet of darkvision which in a game where the dm cares about mechanics is amazing in a dungeon scenario and is often why scribes wizards animated spellbook gets glazed ontop of advantage on initiative)

.

It should be self evident why free advantage on initiative is strong since I think you know gift of alacrity is strong. Twilight clerics are the best in temp hp because it removes debilitating conditions and is a concentration free duration based source of essentially consistent damage reduction. Then at level 6 you get concentration free flight which I also probably don’t have to get into why that’s insane.

[buoyant oar]

You.... You know you are responding to comments made 8 hours ago right?

[knotty pasture]

Tbf Twilight being called average is questionable at best and pressing one's buttons at worst so I kind of get it

That being said, while I agree with all of the above I would simply just drop by the fact that #dnd-discussion is a general mixing pot where v questionable takes do pop up so I think its best to ignore these kinda takes

There'd really be no end otherwise arguing with people otherwise

[royal lake]

.

And even at level 20 like you mentioned your twilight sanctuary gives allies half cover, which is a +2 bonus to AC. Let’s say a warforged colossus is hitting you and it has a +18, and your arti chron friend has half plate and a shield so 19 ac, and so with shield that’s 24 ac, which means the colossi needs a 6 to hit them and deal 29.5 damage on average that’s a 70% chance to hit so 21.63 damage on average. The twilight cleric makes that 0 anyway because of temp hp and reduces the hit chance by 60% (if the party has a means of generating disadvantage it’d be an even higher difference) so 18.68 damage which is less than the temp hp you granted them. Meaning that you are either reducing the damage they take to 0, or atleast by 23.5 + whatever the difference is from the half cover which in the case of this colossi would be 3 damage per attack. Which doesn’t sound like alot but if it makes three attacks every turn for a 4 round combat that’s 36 damage reduced + 23.5 temp hp per turn per ally so one ability could reduce up to if you have 4 allies in a 4 round combat 376 damage, which if it doesn’t reach that amount of damage reduction, that means one of the turns an ally took no damage which is already a success, on top of removing frightened and charmed so your martials can actually do something, and flying over the combat to default kill the enemy who you went first against in initiative because every ally had advantage, and the enemy doesn’t have 300 ft darkvision only you and your allies do so longbow sniper time

[royal lake]

That’s the last thing

[serene jolt]

Twilight is by no means average. I never felt like I played it right so I never liked it myself but I know it's one of the top clerics (and top subclasses in general) for sure.

[royal lake]

Someone made me aware of this

[knotty pasture]

Oh dear

But speaking of Twilight Cleric I don't think I completely mastered it either, maybe I'm just overthinking it

[royal lake]

Wdym?

[knotty pasture]

Do you always just drop Twilight Sanctuary at the start of a fight

I think I'm too used to playing Cleric like a standard spellcaster by throwing cantrips half the time but since those all rely on saving throws the accuracy is fixed and not as reliable as I'd hoped

[serene jolt]

It was the first time I played cleric and one of my first characters (I think it was my second character) and I felt so incredibly weak the whole time that I complained/vented after every session. Eventually the DM "buffed" me by giving me a free Dragon Mark with an in-story reason because I sucked so much at TC. XD

So maybe it's just complicated for newbies? Either way I've enjoyed the heck out of Life and War (only other clerics I've tried) so I haven't bothered going back.

[fiery nimbus]

Isn't cleric widely known as basically one of the most powerful creatures out there

[serene jolt]

That's why I'm confused why I sucked so badly with Twilight.

[knotty pasture]

Its not really bad per se, I think its just leftover habits from when I kept conserving resources in worry of a bigger upcoming fight, but most of the time it never comes so I'd always long rest with at least half of my spell slots unused

[serene jolt]

Maybe it's because it's a full support and I just couldn't understand the power behind it. I would cast bless and none of the party members used or acknowledged it. No one took my temps when I casted.

Maybe... Maybe it was the party.

[knotty pasture]

With Twilight I assume its more important than ever to utilize all its got

[serene jolt]

I'm starting to think it was the party. We were all new to DnD and they didn't really care about it when they played so I'm thinking that rubbed off on me and made me dislike my character.

It sucks being a full on support (all my spells were built around helping out) and then also having a party that doesn't notice or care. I like the feeling when my bless was the reason someone made an important save or my healing kept them up and helped them do a TON of damage.

[stark arch]

lesser of the 2 weevels

[keen valve]

Yes!

[valid geyser]

the GM could also be making the game really easy but i cant comment on how your game works
it just makes sense to me that a support seems the least impactful when the game is easy enough to seem like the support didn't matter

[royal lake]

Generally. If you determine a combat is so easy you could default kill the enemy without it, then don’t drop it

Like for example, if they are a group of melee martial enemies and one of the party members is a winged tiefling with default killing abilities like a longbow or web + evards black tentacles then you don’t need to pop twilight

Or if it’s a low risk combat in general and your party has a method of out of combat resourceless/low resource healing then you don’t need to pop it

[royal lake]

It can be, however you shouldn’t have sucked no matter what because at the end of the day you’re a full spellcaster

Twilight cleric can’t “save” a bad cleric, it only adds to it

Even a subclassless cleric should be strong

[royal lake]

It’s not, but it is a full caster. Cleric is weaker than wizard, sorcerer, and bard, weaker than 2024 artificer, and about on par with druid

However even being weaker than those classes still makes you way stronger than any martial

[valid geyser]

also i think that if theyre just throwing out no damaging spells or using any weapons it's gonna seem less impactful

[royal lake]

What level did you start at

Is another important question

[valid geyser]

i think the mentality of "support only" is way better than the mentality of "only healing" which i dont wanna start a side tangent about how that stinks, but youre gonna have turns where you should be throwing out cantrips or setting other damage spells

[royal lake]

Assuming you were level 3, you had access to aid (great for rubberbanding multiple downed allies) healing word (great for rubberbanding a single ally) sanctuary (great for protecting yourself), bless (bumps allies damage and saving throws quite a bit), lesser restoration, silence (a weaker antimagic field), shield of faith, protection from evil and good, guidance etc

If you were level 5, then you’d get spirit gaurdians and well, I don’t think I have to explain why that’s insane

So even without the subclass, you shouldn’t be weak as a cleric

[serene jolt]

We were level 3 at the time. We died at that level and I made a new character. Again, this was my second character ever and I didn't know how to build him.

[royal lake]

Twilight just enables you to do all of that, while also giving you and your allies advantage on initiative, 300 ft darkvision, and damage reduction on top of condition negation

And at level 6 it should be even more noticable with spirit gaurdians and flight

[serene jolt]

They didn't "take" any of my help or they forgot.

That's why it's a party problem

[royal lake]

That’s fair, very few subclasses can overcome a weak character or a weak party/coordination

[still plover]

This does sound like something that's worth talking about after the session, I agree.

[valid geyser]

id say that its probably worthwhile to remind people of the buffs you put on them when it comes up, because people can forget stuff like temp hp

[tidal bough]

Or just do the roll and tell them "you gain this much thp"

[serene jolt]

No, we talked plenty of times. I really don't think those two cared about DnD. We aren't playing anymore. Lol.

[knotty pasture]

Oh yeah that's actually good thinking with Twilight's flight, use Spirit Guardians and just ram into the enemy

[serene jolt]

Our ranger didn't use any ranger features. Never saw any spells casted except cure wounds on herself once in a while. No subclass features were seen. (She was a hunter ranger). And our barbarian did well but he cheated frequently, changed his AC subtly more and more until the DM noticed. Wanted to "win" DnD.

I love the people IRL but not as DnD players.

And yes we talked to them many, many times.

[serene jolt]

If I got to level 6, I would have done that but the barbarian got us all killed sadly

[knotty pasture]

Lmao as if Barb isn't bulky enough in early levels as is

[still plover]

Hey, there's always Crab Truckers!

[serene jolt]

Well the barb decided to pull out a support rafter because we were struggling to take out a monster so he could hit him with it. But even after the DM warned him, he still did it, and the entire place started to collapse (we were deep underground) and we couldn't find a way out in time.

It was... Certainly something. 🤣

[serene jolt]

We just hang out and watch TV together and play ARK.

I don't put anything against them. Dnd is just not their thing and that's okay! We at least got them into Baulder's Gate.

Maybe I'll try Twilight again someday. But I want to try Light first.

[still plover]

Well, now I have a wonder: what would you do to make a Midnight cleric?

[hot marlin]

Arcana domain

[hard crystal]

a moon circle druid can transform into a beast they have seen. Do they have to see that beast literally or could it just be documented / pictures?

[hard crystal]

cause a lot of the good beasts in the moon circle list are like dinosaurs or mammoth

[hot marlin]

I'd go with the old rule of "this is not a pipe".

An illustration of a mammoth is not a mammoth

[knotty pasture]

Moon is pretty situational as is so I'd just go with seen pictures

[hard crystal]

ok but then how tf am I supposed to turn into strong animals if most of them are not real in the world?

[hot marlin]

(The joke is that Midnight is the name of the goddess of magic)

[hard crystal]

planes shit?

[hot marlin]

If they're not real you're not supposed to turn into them

[hard crystal]

we only have player handbook so the choice would be either moon or earth and earth is boring

[knotty pasture]

Land is pretty good ngl

[hard crystal]

I don’t see the appeal

[knotty pasture]

Just go Underdark

You can cast web and web is very cool

[hard crystal]

it’s just a caster then

[knotty pasture]

Kind of a one trick pony but the spell is good enough to justify it

[hard crystal]

ok but like

turning into a mammoth or a dino??

even just a bear, with earth I’d have to wait level 8

while with moon I can do it at level 2

[knotty pasture]

Web stays relevant even later on, Moon has weird scaling

[serene jolt]

2014 or 2024?

[knotty pasture]

Its better the shorter the campaign is

If it ends at level 4-5 go for Moon

[serene jolt]

2014 Moon Druid is a "you have to see the creature in person" while 2024 fixed the wording so it isn't so dumb.

[knotty pasture]

There comes a point where wild shape isn't always the best option which is where Moon gets a bit weird in how good it is

[serene jolt]

But you can backstory that you saw something you're interested in. Most DMs are like "sure yah whatever"

[hard crystal]

2014

[knotty pasture]

I have to say that I loved Moon's concept though so this lowkey hurts to talk bad about Moon but yknow

[hot marlin]

Why the mammoth obsession anyways? There are also elephants

[serene jolt]

Yeah that's the weird one. Work with your DM and see if you can either backstory it or if the DM will allow you to have an encounter with one (passive or otherwise)

[valid geyser]

i think having physically seen the animal is a good enough GM tool to let them say no to wildshaping into a dinosaur if they feel inclined to do so

[knotty pasture]

Ice Age electric boogaloo

The Druid's name just happens to be Mandy

[hard crystal]

https://www.reddit.com/r/DnD/s/oMPPo21AC4

its the strongest

[hot marlin]

So what?

[earnest canyon]

Huh?

[hot marlin]

And actually it's not the strongest. It's the highest CR

[serene jolt]

I've had a Moon Druid who lived in the ancient times when dinosaurs roamed and she got frozen in ice and came up to the modern DnD age and could only turn into dinosaurs.

I've also had people live in places (or planes) where dinosaurs were common.

I'm sure mammoths could be the same. It's just one creature, it should be easy enough to backstory.

[hard crystal]

its at least rewarding for going to level 18 ig

even tho we won’t get to level 18 for sure

[knotty pasture]

Yeah nah Moon Druid isn't quite it if it goes on to level 15+

[hard crystal]

i’ll talk to my dm

[knotty pasture]

Feel free to do Moon Druid anyways but its best if you know what's ahead first

[hard crystal]

I wanted to do circle of spores but it’s not in my manual

[knotty pasture]

Land Druid has a stronger late game than Moon Druid

[hard crystal]

same for college of swords for the bard

[serene jolt]

Even if it's not minmaxing, if he wants to be a mammoth, let him do what he wants. 🤣 Moon Druid is very versatile, beasty shapes or not.

[knotty pasture]

Yeah no pressure, like I said I love Moon Druid but I think it'd be nice if wolf knows what it means throughout

[valid geyser]

i think its weird that most druid subclasses aren't that great and the best thing they offer are spells granted

[hard crystal]

we are prolly going for level 10 ig? it is a campaign but we never finished one so this will prolly be short as well

[serene jolt]

I think 2024 made druid much more fun to play (as someone who has played moon druid in both versions).

[knotty pasture]

That's kind of how it is in general, Wild Shape is seriously just a sidegrade and the more reliant one is on Wild Shape, the more shaky the subclass turns out

Which is why Druid's hard, overrelying on either spells or Wild Shape isn't a good idea

[hard crystal]

isn’t druid just a wild cleric otherwise lol

[serene jolt]

That's why I like the 2024 moon. I can do both!

[knotty pasture]

Well kind of, they are both priest based classes but have different spells

[valid geyser]

druids have been weird to me recently since wild shape is essentially just the druid equivalent of the cleric's channel divinity, yet they're more often used for prolonged effects compared to clerics who usually have instant single action effects (mostly, exceptions exist)

[knotty pasture]

Wild Shape just happens to make Druid incredibly tanky but not enough to be reckless

[valid geyser]

druid and cleric have almost the exact same class chassis in 2024

[knotty pasture]

Which I think is a trap for new Druid players, either never touching Wild Shape or permanently on Wild Shape to the point where Druid plays like a bad Barbarian

[hard crystal]

I can still pretty much double my hp

[valid geyser]

i kinda wish druid was split into two classes, since "nature magic guy" and "animal shapeshifter" could both be better fuffilled mechanically if untethered

[hard crystal]

even more act

[knotty pasture]

Yeah doubling is nice, but Druid itself has poor self defense if Wild Shape breaks while you're in the middle of a bunch of nasties

[valid geyser]

but i can also say its not a realistic wish

[knotty pasture]

Which is why recklessly playing Druid is a bad thing cuz its so easy to get yourself downed

[hard crystal]

wild shape can break in the middle of the battle?

[knotty pasture]

Even though you have like a gazillion hp to work with if you aren't interrupted

If your Wild Shape form drops to 0 hp you're forced to turn back to Druid mode

[hard crystal]

oh well yeah but like I should be able to understand from context wether to retreat or not

[knotty pasture]

You can of course Wild Shape again but you're just being a punching bag trying to move back

[minor cargo]

Right? Also reminds me how cool it was to have magic split into Primal, Divine, and Arcane back in playtest.

[knotty pasture]

Its a tricky balance

[hot marlin]

I like the druid's versatility. It can do everything, just not as well as the dedicated ones. I think it fits the archetype

[knotty pasture]

Yeah same I'm enjoying Spores Druid so far myself

[ornate chasm]

whats the difference between aasimars and humans?

[knotty pasture]

Only person in the party so far that isn't downed

Bro just can't die

[hot marlin]

Aasimars have a bloodline marked by the upper planes

[valid geyser]

i think re: druid split
druid would probably be the one to keep wildshape, since in the cultural eye wildshaping is the druid's major thing and then the major nature caster is probably something like a shaman class

[valid geyser]

I think that's a totally fair opinion. I'd probably rephrase my earlier comment about it being more a thought thats passed in and out of my head a lot recently more than a "wotc NEEDS to do this" thing, since wildshaping has this awkwardness to me where if you're not a moon druid, it's mostly just a utility feature
i guess the issue might be making a bunch of subclasses for both/giving them class features to compensate

[humble cairn]

Wild Shaping '24 is mostly utility, I agree, but the Wild Companion feature means it's not only shapeshifting, but also all the utility of Find Familiar. On top of that, the THP from Wild Shape doesn't seem to drop off if you shift out.

So you get easy access to THP as well. And spell slots are basically interchangeable with Wild Shaping after level 5.

[valid geyser]

i mean for non moon druids that's just your level which i'd say isnt much to make a huge difference

[humble cairn]

Mostly Utility

[valid geyser]

and i think on the topic of wild companion, yeah but it also can use spell slots
wild companion is just kind of a weird feature to me because it seems like they couldve just had find familiar on their spell list

im not refuting your claim at all, i think that most non moon druid subclasses at least have something to spend wildshape on, but their class features give them so many uses of it for the moon druids who need to turn into animals, it's strange

[humble cairn]

There's quite a lot of differences from the actual spell. One Magic Action instead of 10 minutes, no material components, only lasts until you Long Rest.

[graceful moth]

👋

[valid geyser]

im aware, i just think it's a weird hill for wotc to stay on that druid shouldnt have find familiar in their spell list, and there's mechanical as well as fluff reasons to want a permanent familiar

[humble cairn]

Oh, you think Druid should just have Find Familiar, separate from any comment about Wild Shape, ok.

[valid geyser]

yeah, i think the issue is that it's hard for me to think of worthwhile replacements that use wild shape as a resource

[serene jolt]

Is it bad that I change characters relatively frequently? Like in every campaign, I usually switch out a character at least once. Westmarches, even more frequently. I've only stayed dedicated to a character up to level 9 (so far, still ongoing!) I'm not really sure why, but I get detached from characters frequently.

[knotty pasture]

Tbf you may just be experimenting around with concepts which is fine

Granted the longer you stay with your characters the better you have an idea of it, but sometimes you just hit a point where you're "done" with the current concept and want to jump ship

[serene jolt]

Is it bad that I've been doing this since I've started dnd over a year ago? Like I have only had one or two characters I've stuck with ever. And I'm trying to do better but at some point, they become hard to enjoy and I remember it's a game and I play it to have fun, not as a job.

I have a Ranger who is level 6 and I both want to keep her because she's cool and I spent a lot of time with her but I'm also frustrated because she's semi boring and I'm not enjoying the play style as much as I used to. And roleplay wise, she's pretty bland.

But I'm challenging myself to stick it through until she dies or the story ends.

[severe rampart]

do people actually use the same character for multiple campaigns?

[turbid vessel]

I have a plan to reuse an old character one day cause I made him when I just started DND and I feel like I could do his story so much better now

[serene jolt]

I mean I have a different character for each campaign but I switch them out frequently

[hidden verge]

sup

[undone fable]

how do I use channel divinity?

[knotty pasture]

Just use it

[rugged hawk]

Well, first, you gotta bend over for the slavemaster deity of your choice, then you beg for their divine essence to flow through you

[knotty pasture]

Every subclass has different effects so just pray really hard and hope something happens

[stuck shuttle]

Not the exact same character but I’ve seen people carry the same concept over to multiple campaigns. I’ve heard of people doing a full port, just items , experience, etc won’t carry over

[feral berry]

hello guys

[knotty pasture]

Like you'll give your god the last piece of cheese from your dinner

[stuck shuttle]

Have you read the Channel Divinity feature of your class page?

[undone fable]

I dont understand Paladins or clerics

[stuck shuttle]

Have you read their class page? What don’t you understand about them?

If it’s just the channel divinity, the features that use channel divinity will tell you if they use it and when

[hidden verge]

do you guys pay for dnd games? am I the only one who finds that kinda weird

i have no spite for those who charge to play the game but come on

[undone fable]

Well, i dont quite understand how useful they can be

[stuck shuttle]

As a whole?

[undone fable]

Its all confusing to me.

[turbid vessel]

A gigs a gigs, is always my mindset. I won't knock someone's hustle

[stuck shuttle]

Paladins and Clerics are both very useful

[undone fable]

yes. as a whole

[turbid vessel]

Do you feel like you have difficulty articulating what's confusing about them?

[undone fable]

yes i do actually.

[hidden verge]

yeah but like it kinda ruins the atmosphere for me and the vibe

[rugged hawk]

Very pain in my tail*. Always with the PREACHING and the JUDGING and the DETECT EVIL and the SMITING....

[knotty pasture]

Priest based classes basically draw power from believing in something so deeply that they can use the power of the things they believe in

[turbid vessel]

If I could ask then, do you feel it's more something to mechanical or something flavor wise you don't understand about them?

[rugged hawk]

Priests are just socially acceptable warlocks with more spells and less eldritch blast, tbh

[hidden verge]

I have no idea how the classes work my table just makes shit up

have you guys heard of the hunter class

[feral berry]

so ive got a question, Can i multiclass into two subclasses, like hunter ranger 3/ eldrich warlock?

[undone fable]

Well I was looking over the different channel divinity mechanical and flavor and... I guess Im confused on why the subclasses get different CD.

[stuck shuttle]

.. are you sure you’re playing 5e and not Calvinball?

[feral berry]

its a ranger subclass

[blissful dragon]

payed dnd is fine i guess though i wish it didnt feel like these days no one just dms cause they want to have fun with people and not make it a mix max side gig hobby

[stuck shuttle]

I don’t participate in paid games but I don’t mind those that do. I know there’s a much higher standard of quality and reliability that comes with paid games so I see the appeal

[turbid vessel]

Think of the act of "channeling divine power" being something that every cleric has the ability to do, but how that manifests is going to be different based on what type of divinity they're channeling
IE: their subclass

[hidden verge]

ohh i was arguing with a friend he thought it didnt exist which to be fair i just made it up extra buff in hunting ig idk

they let me play it

I was a barbarian too so

it didnt make much sense

[feral berry]

Im italian so idk what those are called in english but he has some nice thing going on

[stuck shuttle]

Hunter is in the Basic Rules so it should be easy to verify 😭

[hidden verge]

we didnt have a book

[feral berry]

extra damage to not full health target or extra attacks

[hidden verge]

we had a dice the table and free time

[stuck shuttle]

The Basic Rules are online for free, I don’t think it has a physical publication

[feral berry]

cool ig, ive just got it

[feral berry]

the player handbook?

[stuck shuttle]

The PHB is different from the Basic Rules

[undone fable]

So if i want to use channel divinity, i just use it?

[hidden verge]

ohh

[feral berry]

srly? idk that

[stuck shuttle]

The BR is essentially the free version of D&D

[lavish flame]

I'm actually truly praying that Artificer and Psion lead to more classes in the future

[stuck shuttle]

The PHB is the next step up, mainly with more player options

[turbid vessel]

The specific channel divinity ability will tell you how you use it. Most are either an action or a bonus action.

[feral berry]

the 2024 version hasnt the artificier as a class

[stuck shuttle]

Artificer isn’t one of the core 12 classes so it isn’t free in either version of 5e

[feral berry]

ahh idk that, guess that ive got a lot to learn. thx

[stuck shuttle]

No problem

[feral berry]

can i multiclass into 2 subclasses, like a hunter ranger 3/ some warlock subclass?

[stuck shuttle]

If you’re just starting out I’d check out #learn-to-play and #dnd-newcomers

[feral berry]

ok ill check it out

[hidden verge]

my virgin friends sucked me into this game...

[blissful ibex]

yes, so long as you meet the requirements; but it is higly recomended to make sure you are knowledgeable about the game and how classes work before messing with multiclassing because it is incredibly easy to fall behind a standard, single class character if you do not know what you're doing

[hidden verge]

its pretty dope tho

[stuck shuttle]

Subclasses are attached to your class(es) not to your total character level. If you’re at a level where your class would grant you a subclass you get it, regardless of if you have a subclass in a different class

[feral berry]

okk cool

[feral berry]

yeah, okk thx

[stuck shuttle]

On the contrary, what isn’t allowed is taking multiple subclasses in the same class. So if you picked the Assassin subclass for Rogue, you wouldn’t be able to pick the Soul Knife subclass

[feral berry]

Oky

[hollow lance]

why are rogues proficient in longswords? thats not a weapon they can use with sneak attack

[stuck shuttle]

IIRC it’s a holdover from previous editions

[hollow lance]

I mean it SHOULD be as should all swords but like mechanically there is no reason to use a longsword as a rogue unless it's the moonblade a legendary item

[rugged hawk]

Well, certainly not with that attitude! They just gotta wait til someone's paralyzed, stunned, held, or sleeping

[snow zephyr]

Rogues have proficiency in anatomy and physiology, they know how to turn a rapier into a longsword for intents of damage

[hollow lance]

nah you still dont get sneak attack, you need a finesse or ranged weapon

[snow zephyr]

(also a rapier is about as long as a longsword)

[feral berry]

Wait are they proficient?

[hot gate]

Yeah, it's a bit strange. Though that aprticular strangeness has been remedied with the 2024 version of 5e.

[feral berry]

ahh ok

[hollow lance]

do you... do you wield swords at all that statement makes no sense whatsoever

[rugged hawk]

Nonsense, realistically, all you need is knowledge of anatomy and a good stabbing weapon. Like a longsword

[hot gate]

Only in 2014

[feral berry]

this wasnt adding up

i have the 5e 2024 PHB here so

[snow zephyr]

I do, and I've got Spanish rapiers. My buddy collects Germanic longswords

[hollow lance]

look I also think it's nonsense as a swordfighter even the greatsword should realistically be finesse, they dont use any strength at all

[hollow lance]

then you would know that the masters on those weapons are completely different

[rugged hawk]

That's because greatswords aren't about brute power, but crowd control via large-area reach.

[serene jolt]

And bows would require more strength than dex.

But I don't think logic applies and that's fine. If you try to mix dnd rules with logic/physics, it gets weird.

[rugged hawk]

Bows realistically need both to be effective, depending on the draw

[snow zephyr]

Greatswords can be used that way, but I have the most trouble one on one because they're excellent for feints

[feral berry]

yeah cause of the draw

[hollow lance]

ngl I'm making my own system and I straight up just went "nah ranged weapons scale with perception and have a high strength requirement, you get more damage with perception because you land a better shot"

[snow zephyr]

Warped skeletons

[hollow lance]

warbows have a higher draw weight than my girlfriend does actual weight

[feral berry]

what about a close powerful shot, u still get the disadvantages?

[feral berry]

they weight a lot

[hollow lance]

only with bows, crossbows and guns it's a different story

[snow zephyr]

Bows require more strength than swords

[undone fable]

Is CBE still a good feat in 2024?

[serene jolt]

If they changed the heavy property to be only strength in 2024, it'd make more sense.

[feral berry]

this makes more sense tbh

[serene jolt]

But the "small" rule in 2014 was silly.

[hollow lance]

we had a kobold barbarian who couldn't wield proper weapons because of that which felt so wrong

[feral berry]

and y ranger sucks in dnd?

[undone fable]

WOTC gave it a identity crisis

[serene jolt]

Your small kobold with 20 strength can't wield a Greatsword but a medium wizard with an 8 can.

[feral berry]

its a speelcaster or a fighter

[valid geyser]

I understand why the small rule exists and think it realistically makes some sense but it’s like
Who really cares about that level of minutae

[snow zephyr]

Weirdly enough, Spanish fighting manuals split focus between slashing at vital areas with flourishes and draw cuts from missed thrusts almost half as much as they focus on "just kill the guy already"

[hollow lance]

wotc basically just refuse to give it anything that a hunting class should have, they had sauce but no pasta in 2014 and now they have pasta but no sauce

[lyric viper]

TBH every person I've seen play ranger has enjoyed it immensely (and been the scariest PC in the group >.>)

[crimson gulch]

Agreed, the rangers in my games slay so hard on a fantasy and combat level

[serene jolt]

I'd like to find that enjoyment with my level 6 ranger 🤣

[hollow lance]

ranger are fun but it's just really hard to get anything out of them that is equal in power to the other classes

[snow zephyr]

#letrapiersbemodalfordamage

[serene jolt]

I feel like a burden 90% of the time

[feral berry]

Im creating an Odysseus based character and i made him a multi warlock 3/ ranger 3 cause idk how else to make him work

[loud tendon]

Currently playing a 2014 ranger and enjoying it a lot.

Have played several rangers over the years and not really had a complaint.

[snow zephyr]

Disagree, they have better damage per round for more overall rounds

[hollow lance]

ehh, a level 8 rogue can deal 38 average damage a term

[serene jolt]

If you disregard all your other spells with concentration and just use hunters mark, sure, then you have an extra 2d6 at level 5+ (if you hit both times)

[undone fable]

I love playing a ranger.

[snow zephyr]

A ranger is a persistence hunter where most classes favor skirmish or ambush

[feral berry]

how?

[lyric viper]

I feel like the 'Ranger suck' meta convo has come out of optimisation convos and some conversations around early 2014 Ranger needing to be more niche in some aspects (Like their favoured enemies/terrain)

[serene jolt]

At level 6, I was only outshining our monk. Our sorcerer and cleric were doing way better than I.

[snow zephyr]

Optimization leads to tpks

[valid geyser]

I think some ranger builds are good at doing damage but you really have to be using your spells on stuff other than HM

[crimson gulch]

The dual weilding swarm keeper ranger in my exandria game clears 80 damage a round usually

[hollow lance]

okay so assuming you have sneak attack you can use the double bladed scimitar with revenant blade as your level 4 and GWM as your level 8 making average damage 34 (sorry I made a mistake) because thats 4d6 + 2d4 + 15 damage

[crimson gulch]

Level 14

[hollow lance]

HM is such a bad ability IMO, it doesn't help you hunt and doesn't help your party at all

[feral berry]

damn thats a lot

[snow zephyr]

Conjure volley is neat, so is lightning arrow

[serene jolt]

That's why I'm so ready for that horror subclass that gives you extra buffs if you use HM. XD

[lyric viper]

However in actual play, when in a game the ranger was built for and not white room theory, Ranger's played just fine. Just a few hiccups originally over expectation vs reality (Like Beast Master- technically not that bad, but not what people expected )

[serene jolt]

Then HM might feel somewhat worth over other spells

[valid geyser]

Its fine to have as a default, since extra damage is always nice to have but you need to know when to use something better for a situation

[lyric viper]

Hunter's Mark is equal to Hex honestly.

[valid geyser]

My issue with ranger is that it’s just not all that exciting mechanically. Needs more features that are uniquely its own. Paladins get a lot of those features and rangers don’t

[serene jolt]

I'll see how I'm feeling when I get to play my new GWM build with a Glaive and Longbow.

But at least I get a baby Owlbear. That's pretty neat.

[lavish flame]

agreed

[snow zephyr]

Rangers are contingency planning, rogues are reactive

[hollow lance]

warlocks get more out of it though, since they make way more attacks than ranger, effectively turning eldritch blast into 1d10+1d6 when ranger just doesn't attack as many times a turn

[lavish flame]

I do wish Hunter's Mark had a different upcast tho

[serene jolt]

Same...

[lavish flame]

Like more creatures or more damage would be pretty sweet

[hollow lance]

1d6 damage at level 20 is crazy weak and it's genuinely a problem with both abilities

[valid geyser]

Yeah, when you get five free uses of it, it isn’t great to justify it lasting eight hours

[serene jolt]

I'll take the 1 hour casting if I can more scaling, another bonus to it (like seeing invis enemies I mark) or can target more than one creature.

[hollow lance]

like would it have been THAT OP to make it 1d6 per level of the spell? at least for hunters mark it'd be fine I understand it'd probably break hex

[valid geyser]

And again, it’s a spill you’re supposed to switch off of. Not great value for upcast

[snow zephyr]

Quick quiver is pretty nice to have

You just need the one arrow

And then you become Legolas

[feral berry]

yeah its not that bad

[hollow lance]

but honestly thats another issue with ranger, they have a bunch of options that are like putting 50 bandaids on a massive stabwound, I think they just need better class abilities that make them better at their job

[snow zephyr]

The advantage of ranger is that you don't have to put all the eggs in one basket

[hollow lance]

yeah but like all full casters are like that, heck I'd argue druid is a better hunter than a ranger due to their wildshape

[feral berry]

he doesnt have a lot of spells slot

[snow zephyr]

You get to be ranged and melee and still cast all your spells

[valid geyser]

And I agree with that. Paladins get aura, smites, lay on hands, and more by level 6 whereas rangers don’t get much that other classes can’t grab

[hot marlin]

Which animal shape would make the druid a better hunter than a ranger?

Because good human hunters have better success rates at hunting than most predatory animals

[feral berry]

dont know

[hollow lance]

for humans? tiny animals like spiders are rats, for the animals themselves you can literally be a wolf in sheeps clothing

[hot marlin]

Oh you mean like approach the prey in animal form then shapeshift back to attack?

[valid geyser]

I’ve thought for a while now natures veil should be moved down to like level 6, and they should get something like a level 5 support ability. Level 10ish id want them to just ignore all difficult terrain

[lyric viper]

Eh, again to me The 'Ranger bad' meta and the 'Martial vs Caster' meta end up boiling down to these exact number crunching and worrying over a few numbers in a narrative RP game.
And I get that at times classes don't feel right when playing. Feel left behind, or don't meet expectations. Sorcerer never felt right for me, but others in my group loved playing their sorc.

[fiery nimbus]

Martial Vs Caster is more about versatility than number crunching tbh

[valid geyser]

Yeah I think that’s why my opinion is more that I’d just like them to get more cool class features and exciting stuff. Mechanically I think their numbers are fine I’d just like them to be a little more exciting

[sullen ingot]

'Ranger bad' doesn't mean 'Ranger unfun', and I think we have to seperate the two.

[hot marlin]

Martial Vs Caster depends on which martial, which caster, which player and which task.

[hollow lance]

yeah cus even casters are better martials than martials is the problem, the game is just poorly balanced from this huge aspect of it, of course play whatever class you want but that doesn't mean dont point out you deserve better

[snow zephyr]

Ranger bad implies ranger unfun

[naive cedar]

hot take: Ranger is great. I love Ranger

[hollow lance]

cus thats the truth, ranger is fun but ranger players deserve better from wotc

[hollow lance]

idk theres a lot of bad movies that are super fun, it's just mechanically ranger is left behind severely

[hot marlin]

What exactly is the problem with the ranger?

[naive cedar]

also people are way too hung up on minmaxing lol it’s a role playing game. roleplay a character

[sullen ingot]

You mean the team game where we fight as a team, and perform different jobs in combat, has the ranger being better/worse at specific tasks than other classes? GASP In truth, I think the issue is that ranger doesn't excel at any one thing

But it sure is fun

[fiery nimbus]

Honestly sheer versatility of spellcasting means that in most situations caster won't be worse off, just won't be better on every situation

[valid geyser]

I think it’s hard to like the idea of rangers as the jack of all trades class when bards exist

[hollow lance]

it's not got one issue it's more that it just isn't as good as the other classes at any of its jobs and as a versatile class it doesn't really have that

[hot marlin]

Which spellcaster in which situation? Which spell did they prepare?

[snow zephyr]

The difference is in the medium, if you're new and you pick a ranger only to get hammered with "durr, rangers bad" then you're probably gonna want to switch your class or create a new character

[fiery nimbus]

Every Spellcaster in most situations with wish prepared.

My favourite one is using distort value to sneak

[valid geyser]

Also it doesn’t help that rangers are flavorwise confusing to some
I’ve seen too many people who think ranger just means “ranged weapon user”

[naive cedar]

Eldritch blast >>>

[snow zephyr]

Melee rangers can be absolute blenders

[hot marlin]

With wish prepared? Wish? The ninth level spell, the one that you only get to cast once per long rest and that you only get access to at level 17 and which can be counterspelled?

[sullen ingot]

Ah, the Ranged-er. That's my favorite way to play them

[snow zephyr]

And can essentially wound your mortal soul

[naive cedar]

this is really exhausting to me because fighters can also be ranged weapon users

arcane archer my beloved

[snow zephyr]

vorpal arrows

[hot marlin]

And requires vocal components.

[valid geyser]

Also them getting druid spells is a little fundamentally strange to some, since I think it’s a class flavor that very much can work without spellcasting

It is a thing that you cant really do much about now

[hollow lance]

them getting druid spells really didn't help with the "rangers are diet druids" thing

[hot marlin]

I mean, sure, wish is ultra versatile. But it's only one thing. You can only do it once per long rest

[snow zephyr]

They used to get access to priest spells iirc

[valid geyser]

A martial that gets druid control spells is a very nice thing to have. Those are some of the best spells in the game and it’s a thing that has reason to exist
Just conceptually I can see why expert survivalist being a casting class can seem odd

[hollow lance]

yeah I'm personally making my ranger class be super built around survival and hunting and I'm just straight up gonna give them no magic and way better class abilities because they just shouldn't be magical

[valid geyser]

Yeah AD&D rangers had access to a teeny bit of cleric and magic user spells at like level 8 and 9 because the idea was that they just picked up some magic tricks on their travels

[snow zephyr]

I think it comes down to utility

[hollow lance]

I mean look at the inspiration for the class, Aragorn, name one time that guy casts a spell

[hot marlin]

I understand but see it another way: Rangers being survivalists can actually be an explanation for using spells. Spells don't require logistics, they don't require a supply chain. You can run out of arrows, you'll never run out of spells

[snow zephyr]

You might like iron heroes, it's a 3.5 analog

[valid geyser]

But 5e also isn’t a game where first level spells at level 10 are gonna pull much weight

[naive cedar]

idk ranger is pretty understandable to me but admittedly I’ve been playing dnd since I was like 8 lol. theyre like aragorn

[uncut sentinel]

I'm no expert and am low on familiarity with most of the D&D editions. However, seems to me from the exposure I've had, Rangers are like a weird pancake for breakfast: a dash of this, a dash of that, but no excellence or mastery at any of it (over many years). Just a lot of mid.

[snow zephyr]

And you can use spells to fill gaps in logistics, quick quiver is really nice to have in an area without trees or shops

[hollow lance]

the humble silvery barbs

[valid geyser]

As the person said earlier, Aragorn doesn’t cast spells

[sullen ingot]

That's more or less what I was describing, yeah.

[naive cedar]

admittedly though I think Ranger stood out more before the days of each class having 8 subclasses that allows more mix and matching

[sullen ingot]

Aragorn obviously took one of the ranger alternate class features from 3.5 to replace spells and be good at other stuff 🙂

[snow zephyr]

The magic system in LotR is just "the gods have magic and they send down angels" or "hell magic"

[valid geyser]

I know that. Doesn’t make anything I said more or less true

[naive cedar]

wizards in lotr arent even the same species as everyone else

[valid geyser]

Whether Aragorn hypothetically could or couldn’t use magic doesn’t stop the fact that he didn’t use magic in the books and movies

[hollow lance]

every time I hear something about 3.5 it just makes me wanna play it more but I'm too busy making my own system, and learning cyberpunk and coc rn

[unkempt roost]

Magic in Tolkien's work is more complex than that

Anything that is perceived to be unnatural is magic including industry

[hot marlin]

Nobody casts spells in the Lord of the Rings, so why should Lord of the Rings be in any way relevant to this conversation?

[uncut sentinel]

I dun care about Tolkien tbqh. I read his books, watched the movies, and like the MCU, been there, tread that. It's fine for what it is.

[valid geyser]

If someone wanted to play a guy just like Aragorn, they’d probably not consider a spellcaster from the start

[sullen ingot]

3.5 is a different beast than 5e, but I wouldn't say it's worse (I would argue that it's better, but because I like the things the system is good at)

[valid geyser]

I’m saying it’s a matter of inspiration to a character build

[naive cedar]

because lotr was a massive influence on dnd

[snow zephyr]

In the forgotten realms, the rangers use spells because they're another tool in the toolbox

[hollow lance]

honestly if someone tried playing aragorn now they'd probably play a rogue as first instinct

[fiery nimbus]

Yes the wish prepared, the ninth level spell, that one that you only get to cast once per long rest and that you only get access to at level 17 and which can be counter spelled

[hollow lance]

I'm not saying it's worse I'm saying theres a lot to learn and I'm busy with learning other systems rn

[sullen ingot]

I'd consider fighter on the list, for sure

[uncut sentinel]

Aragorn is most like the stealth-focused ranger, at least when he was Strider or whatever.

[snow zephyr]

Aragorn is a 5e rogue/fighter with expertise in survival

[unkempt roost]

Anyone wanting to play Aragorn (Strider) would want tracking skills, healing skills and good combat as well as charisma

[hot marlin]

Aragorn is a ranger in the sense that he is part of a military group that keeps order. Aragorn does not have a class because Aragorn is not a D&D character

[fiery nimbus]

Frankly I know of very few situations a little spell wouldn't help

[hollow lance]

yeah that all exists in those other classes

[unkempt roost]

Aragorn having good healing skills is vital to his character the hands of a healer are the hands of a king

[hot marlin]

Actually it was not as big an influence as other books that were more popular in the circles that Gygax and Arneson were part of

[sullen ingot]

Shh! Let us have this.

[valid geyser]

I mean 5e would need a good nonmagical healing system

[hollow lance]

he isn't casting cure wounds or anything he's using physical healing, that could easily just be the healer feat

[snow zephyr]

Dude, if I got prestidigitation I would literally never have anything to complain about inside my home

[hollow lance]

I sometimes forget that 5e doesn't have pf2e's nonmagical healing syste

[sullen ingot]

Like... hit dice? A class feature that uses herbal healing? I'm sure you could make it work

[unkempt roost]

There's an argument to be made there is something supernatural going on and is probably using elf magic as well

[valid geyser]

I think it still was a big influence considering that there’s so much Tolkien stuff in the earliest d&d books. Even if they claimed that they weren’t huge fans, they added it and it was an influence

[snow zephyr]

2e has non-magical healing systems

[hot marlin]

It's a common belief that LOTR was a big influence on D&D, but it is actually relatively minor in terms of narrative and mechanics.

[sullen ingot]

We literally used to have hobbits.

[hot marlin]

LOTR aesthetics sure. But even then, those aesthetics did not come directly from LOTR, they came from other books that were influenced by the LOTR

[unkempt roost]

It was literally off brand lotr

[naive cedar]

LOTR was a massive influence on all western fantasy in the 70s. all those books that gygax also took from were influenced by lotr as well

[snow zephyr]

LotR is a low magic setting, the main plot centers around a minor magic item. It's a cursed ring of invisiblity

[hot marlin]

Yes, the influence was indirect.

[fiery nimbus]

Secretly DND is every popular IP and few niche ones in a trench coat

[valid geyser]

I think that’s completely untrue, at least mechanics
If it wasn’t a big influence, the first books wouldn’t have elves, dwarves, hobbits, and ents
Doesn’t matter if gygax was a Tolkien head or not, it was a big part of the game from the start

[hollow lance]

saying that dnd isn't inspired by lotr is like saying the elder scrolls isn't inspired by dnd

[unkempt roost]

It's closer to a ring of wish

[sullen ingot]

IIRC, they stopped using the word 'hobbit' because someone got angry about it at tolkien estates

[naive cedar]

lotr had such a massive influence on western fantasy that people don’t even realise how strong its influence is until they read fantasy that isn’t influenced by lotr

[hot marlin]

You misunderstand. I was talking narrative and mechanics

[hollow lance]

yeah it's a copyrighted term

[naive cedar]

like read the wizard of Oz or something and compare it to modern fantasy

[snow zephyr]

They threatened to take the writers to isengard

[unkempt roost]

Elves in DND are literally ripped straight from lotr

[sullen ingot]

I've never played Elder Scrolls, but I have a vague idea of how it works

Yes, but elf isn't a copyrighted term

[naive cedar]

I don’t doubt that gygax specifically preferred other books though

[hollow lance]

the early elder scrolls games literally have THAC0

[valid geyser]

Like yes, it’s true he said that the main inspiration was pulp fantasy, but Tolkien stuff was there from the start.
Also the quote where he said he only put it in because it was popular was said after the lawsuits so there’s possible salt in that statement

[naive cedar]

that too lol

[unkempt roost]

No but the version of elves we see deliberately comes from Tolkien

[hollow lance]

straight up it's why those games are free, they legally cant sell them because they have so many dnd mechanics

[valid geyser]

And there’s a million other writers who were more influenced by Tolkien that came later and influenced d&d as much or more than gygax
Dragonlance was very Tolkien esque for example

[naive cedar]

wait is THAT the reason?????

[unkempt roost]

Before Tolkien elves were closer to goblins or pixies not fair folk

[snow zephyr]

Dark Sun

My bad, that's dune

[naive cedar]

omg and here I thought Bethesda did it out of the goodness of their hearts. that’s hilarious

[hollow lance]

yeah arena and daggerfall are free because they cant sell them for money anymore and it's either give them away for free on their own terms or have them rock up on myabandonware

[naive cedar]

good on them for making them legally available to play though!

[snow zephyr]

Does WotC have the guts to rip off dune a second time?

[unkempt roost]

I would argue that Tolkien had more influence on modern Western culture than anything else and we still haven't had anything close to that since

[hot marlin]

What Gygax said or did not say does not matter. D&D owes more to Pulp Fantasy because the heroes of D&D are pulp fantasy heroes. D&D narratives and D&D mechanics are representations of pulp fantasy and cannot even approach the Tolkien genre

[snow zephyr]

Martin is the parody

[hot marlin]

Anything else since right?

[fair plinth]

So I've been thinking about running a Infection AU again themed around My Little Pony in D and D

[unkempt roost]

Since then

[hot marlin]

Although... Does western culture even exist?

[naive cedar]

Tbh dune is another example of a work that had a massive influence on a whole genre (Sci fi) to the point where people don’t even realise its influence until they read pre dune Sci fi (not as strong as Tolkein though)

[unkempt roost]

What

[hollow lance]

I'd argue tolkien is even more influential than actual history on fantasy

[fair plinth]

?

[snow zephyr]

The real ones know about my boy Rip Van Winkle

[hot marlin]

Is there such thing as "western culture"? I would say there isn't. It's a term used to group a lot of different cultures.

[naive cedar]

I mean Tolkeins influence on fantasy is visible in like. Anime as well lol although that’s probably more from dnd

[unkempt roost]

Western culture is very distinct

[snow zephyr]

It's typically used to describe certain philosophies

[naive cedar]

or my boy ichabod

[hollow lance]

only unifying things for all western cultures is colonialism and being pale

[hot marlin]

This I could agree with

[lyric viper]

We maaay be getting a wee off topic, but there are certainly cultural threads throughout certain countries considered to be 'of the west'.

[naive cedar]

I mean I wouldn’t simplify it to that extent but that’s a funny description lol

[lyric viper]

I'm going to have to call the modrons however if folk can't engage with this 1) in the framework of D&D and 2) in good faith.

[snow zephyr]

When I pass it in a bookstore I always Crane my neck

[lavish flame]

The Great Modron March !!!!!

[naive cedar]

same. good thing I’m not headless

[unkempt roost]

Greek epics, Shakespeare, Tolkien, Twain, H.G. Wells, Verne

[halcyon forum]

Spaniards and Italians are not that pale /jk

[unkempt roost]

The list goes on

[naive cedar]

Linkin park lyrics

[fair plinth]

Hello?

[naive cedar]

hi

[unkempt roost]

Modern wise we have superheroes, Hollywood, huge music industry

[scarlet marsh]

Hailai

[naive cedar]

I’d also throw Frankenstein in there tbh

[lyric viper]

Look, I'm just going to drop this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_culture
And I feel like we need to refocus back to D&D.

What was the topic before we got side tracked?

[unkempt roost]

Aragorn

[naive cedar]

Tolkein and his degree of influence on dnd

[snow zephyr]

Something about rangers and literary inspiration for D&D

[halcyon forum]

okay bringing this back to D&D, Gygax and the others basically took from every european country's folklore

[unkempt roost]

Eh

[halcyon forum]

even if they are not commonly shared with other european countries

[snow zephyr]

And Tolkien wanted to make LotR into a form of European folklore

[unkempt roost]

It's very unlike actual European folklore/mythology

[naive cedar]

Anyways in the early editions of the game, Ranger was the “wilder” alternative to fighter essentially. I think part of the issue at hand is that classes arent as strictly defined anymore

[valid geyser]

I mean there is an actual list of all the books that inspired d&d. It’s called appendix N

[naive cedar]

oh interesting tyty

[snow zephyr]

Strange women laying in ponds handing out swords is not a legitimate basis of government

[halcyon forum]

there are not a lot of things that are common amongst all european countries. he took bits and pieces from everything

[unkempt roost]

Dwarves, elves and even classic DND orcs all are straight from lotr and I'm pretty sure there was a quote from Gygax saying that DND was basically just a rip off of Lotr because they wanted it to be Lotr but they didn't have the rights

[snow zephyr]

If I went around calling myself emperor because some watery tart lobbed a scimitar at me they'd lock me up

[naive cedar]

If I said some watery bint lobbed a scimitar at me, they’d put me away

[snow zephyr]

Monty Python is a D&D campaign transcript

[naive cedar]

as a side note, I only found out recently that beholders are dnd original. I honestly thought they were from some other mythology/book

[naive cedar]

people WANT their campaigns to be like lotr. they end up like Monty python (because everyone can’t stop quoting it)

[snow zephyr]

It was made by nerds, it's clearly a representation of social anxiety

[naive cedar]

Wait wait keep cooking

[still plover]

It even has the bit where the Game Police show up because the mass combat houserules got out of hand.

[naive cedar]

No wonder I love beholders so much

[hot marlin]

I always thought beholders were representations of postmodern thought

[unkempt roost]

Nowadays DND is very different but there's still abundantly clear heavy influence from Tolkien on dnd

[naive cedar]

Beholders represent the violence inherent in our system

[still plover]

Is that a good thing?

[hot marlin]

The beholder creates through imagining. To the beholder there is little difference between imagination and reality. So basically they're tumblr users

[unkempt roost]

I'm pretty sure beholders are just flying meatball cyclopses

[naive cedar]

or podcasters

[still plover]

I always knew you were a clever one!

[halcyon forum]

beholders are just someone riffing on an old saying too much

[lyric viper]

"The Ranger class was originally devised by Joe Fischer, then a regular in my D&D game group. I published his initial treatment of the class in The Strategic Review, thereafter revised it and included it in the core game rules. Of course it is apparent that Joe based the class on JRRT's work and Aragorn. Likely a forester of some sort would have been created at some point, but it would have been quite different from the Ranger as it appeared. certainly."
-Gary Gygax (Post 99 from http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=71486 Which is now gone- seeing if I can find a wayback archived link)

[sly walrus]

Beyond having any issues with anyone else? Its not letting me sign in

[still plover]

I love beholders more than dragons. They're so singular, so individual, so unique. Dragons come from a catalogue.

[snow zephyr]

The magic and whimsy of fantasy tends to disappear under the gaze of a society that cares not for magic and whimsy. This is reflected in the anti-magic cone emitted by the main eye. The countless eyes that are upon gamers and geeks of all stripes that cast all sorts of judgement and the effects they have on those people are represented by the different effects of the eye rays. The hovering and sense of superiority harkens to the way nerds of most stripes were seen as lesser and profane.

[naive cedar]

I love both beholders and dragons tbh. Beholders because of what you said, and dragons because there’s 100000 different kinds and they’re all amazing

[hot marlin]

Or news anchor!

[snow zephyr]

The symbolism for the oppressive paradigm enforcement against those who desired to express themselves creatively is certainly present within the design language of the beholder

[naive cedar]

The beholder’s all-seeing eyes represent the modern surveillance state, where you cannot walk down the street downtown in any city without being exposed to the prying eyes of 10 different store’s surveillance cameras and 10000000 “budding TikTok influencer’s” phonecamera

[naive cedar]

Don’t forget politicians

[snow zephyr]

Or it's just the archetype of the nerd bully, the nerd that bullies other nerds

You can't tell me that beholders aren't dorks

[hot marlin]

The Beholder invents a reality, then gets outraged about it. The beholder's abilities function by perceiving stuff and then modifying the thing they perceive.

They're modern audiences.

[naive cedar]

So it’s the average person complaining about video games on Twitter rn

[snow zephyr]

Modern Audiences TM

[naive cedar]

Give beholder a YouTube account and it’ll get a million subscribers in days

[snow zephyr]

Give a beholder a YouTube account and it'll get slapped with tax evasion charges

Beholder dementia as an apocalypse

[hot marlin]

Give a beholder a youtube account and it will immediately start a crypto scam and private messaging minors

[naive cedar]

Some super mario 64 blindfolded speedrunning YouTuber will make a 10 hour long video deconstructing beholder’s tax claims. the internet will be outraged for one week and then stop caring

[snow zephyr]

2010s beholder for the L

[south gulch]

dnd beyond is down

like wtffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff

[coarse ravine]

Maybe refresh?

Or is it down down

[snow zephyr]

Come join the cognitive bludgeoning

Sorry, didn't see the tag before I hit send

[south gulch]

reports ar at 147 in the down detector at 11:57

its 12:20 atm

[coarse ravine]

I mean im able to login

[snow zephyr]

It might be out til 13:47

[coarse ravine]

Now im getting a all white page

[naive cedar]

what time zone

sorry I didn’t read dooms message lol

[coarse ravine]

No I can still get in

[south gulch]

you are fine i did it cause someone was abusing it and tagging me and didnt like being tagged..... i was given a warning and i think i was timed out because of it so i made mine just so i can abuse the rules like they did. needs to be removed because you can just turn off notifications of the server and prevent the ping its troll behavior

[naive cedar]

I agree tbh

[coarse ravine]

Codes department prolly won't like the statues in their yard

[serene jolt]

The average person commenting on a video game TikTok. 🤣

[naive cedar]

I think people use the pinging system and rules around it as a way to be rude/harass people more than anything else but eh

[naive cedar]

the average person talking about a bad video game

[serene jolt]

"When does [blank] release?"
"This game sucks."
"[Insert Game] is better."
"10 years later waiting for [blank] to release."

I forgot discord is weird with underlines

[hot marlin]

I've only seen one person abusing it. For them it just seemed like an excuse to yell "don't ping" every two minutes and condescend to people. But since then, I've never seen anyone with a "no ping" really be annoying about it

[naive cedar]

it’s more common in other servers admittedly

[snow zephyr]

The best solution for it being down is to join in on the "D&D is stealing ideas" discourse

[south gulch]

exactly - its screams im better than you

[naive cedar]

or what does the beholder symbolize

(it’s the modern surveillance state)

[snow zephyr]

Dragons represent the IRS

[naive cedar]

nah dragons represent uni degrees

orcs are tax collectors

[lavish flame]

yoooo. Underdark panopticon prison with a Beholder in the central tower

[naive cedar]

keep cooking

[hot marlin]

That's actually a great idea

[snow zephyr]

My theory was that it was a representation of the culture's response to nerds

[snow zephyr]

Panopticon menagerie

[naive cedar]

I mean in all seriousness the beholder plays on the anxiety of being scrutinized, which is something that both nerds and people with social anxiety particularly relate to

[strong topaz]

Anyone looking for a player on Friday evenings? I’m looking for another campaign to play in but I’m also open to one shots too!!!

[half jetty]

Dark vision. Light lite

[karmic pendant]

I recommend checking #find-a-game

[lavish flame]

COOOOOK

If you've ever seen Cabin In The Woods, I'm imagining that movie's monster sorting thing with a Beholder being able to free them at any time.

[coarse ravine]

Isn't that the poisoned water one?

[lavish flame]

I think? I'm thinking of the 2013 movie

[hot marlin]

Which monster? There were hundreds of monsters in Cabin in the Woods

[lavish flame]

Just a bunch of them, like the movie

Maybe they're regionally themed (like if its in the Underdark, maybe keep it to Underdark creatures)

[delicate owl]

What is everyones most hated rule in d&d, and why?

[plush trench]

personally, healing potion only being 2d4+2. But mainly because my d4s are nat1 production units.

[hot marlin]

Hard to say but,,, Maybe the fact that you only get one opportunity attack. I kept hoping there would be a way to make like tons of them in a round

[lapis maple]

@north bone otario

[lavish flame]

Not really a rule, but I wish more monsters had speeds that werent 30ft

[hot marlin]

Although multiclassing too maybe

[lavish flame]

oh true. I think my most hated rule is Multiclassing

[delicate owl]

Oh? Is multiclassing that bad to you?

[lavish flame]

I hate it

[hot marlin]

It's not that it's bad, it's just that games where multiclassing was not allowed were generally so much better than those where it was

[delicate owl]

I somewhat agree actually. I kinda think the ready action should be a free action to unleash personally.

I never have multiclassed, never will... unless made to. As in games that go past level 20, which I have been in 2 of

[hot marlin]

Past level 20?

[lavish flame]

Multiclassing almost always makes your character worse, in the few scenarios in which it makes your character better, it encourages stinky behavior.

[naive cedar]

I’m not big on multiclassing either tbh especially when subclasses are a thing and are so varied

[unkempt roost]

What's the point of classes atp

[delicate owl]

Yeah, two games Ive been in allow leveling past 20, but you gotta take levels in another class, level 40 games.

[snow zephyr]

Multi classing is where the game balance gets thin

[hot marlin]

I admit I'm of the firm opinion that there should be nothing beyond epic boons, or eventually gestalt or semi-gestalt stuff at beyond level 20

[lavish flame]

Getting levels in a second class could be fun

[hot marlin]

(By "semi-gestalt", I mean imagining a system where a character, past level 20 would gain another subclass)

[unkempt roost]

Past level 20 seems rather redundant

[snow zephyr]

Multi classing is responsible for the lightning ball of death

[hot marlin]

The what?

[snow zephyr]

Tempest cleric elemental sorc

Max damage on the fireball spell

[delicate owl]

Eh, if the game is all homebrew ans scaling harder after 20 more so than usual, I think dual classes is fine. Ill let you know in a few months how thay feels, rn we are getting our butts kicked often so

[muted brook]

Excuse me, where can I find a Portuguese speaking Dungeon Master? (Sorry, I'm not fluent in English)

[hot marlin]

There are probably some portuguese discord TTRPG communities

[delicate owl]

Yeah, by requirement this server is english only. As such, so are the games

[muted brook]

Okay, thank you very much!

[hot marlin]

Redundant ot what?

(Answered the wrong message, sorry Master of Dungeons)

[snow zephyr]

The heroic scale breaks at 20

[hot marlin]

Redundancy is a relational property, not an intrinsic one

[coarse ravine]

There is, monsters just gotta have more reactions.

[hot marlin]

What about players?

Really I think there should be a way for a build to be capable of making multiple attacks of opportunity in a single round.

But there isn't, and I think it lowers the tactical depth of the game

[serene jolt]

I mean... Monster Hunter "kind of" does. 3rd party source though.

[coarse ravine]

Mounting/dismounting is half movement

[serene jolt]

They can opp attack during special circumstances and when they do, if they miss, they keep their reaction until they don't miss.

[hot marlin]

What's there to hate about this one?

[next galleon]

i yearn to play dnd

[coarse ravine]

There is

[serene jolt]

How?

[coarse ravine]

High level play with shapechange. Thats about it

But technically a build that allows it

[serene jolt]

Oh well then "kinda" 🤣

[flat monolith]

Can always use UA tunnel fighter

[coarse ravine]

A dismount should be like 10 feet not a full half your movement

Especially on speedy characters

[coarse ravine]

I think the most confusing rule to players is the leveled spell for action and bonus action.

I get the balance cause sorcerers could just go crazy with metamagic

But thats a very common misunderstood rule

[delicate owl]

Why? And what would you rather it be? And what would Mounted Combatant be changed to in order to reflect such?

[coarse ravine]

I can understand mounting just not dismounting

[hot marlin]

I admit I don't care that much. I've never seen mounting or dismounting be an important part of combat

[fickle heart]

The single rule that I cannot find any logical reason for (not) existing, despite searching, is why Resistance and Vulnerability don't cancel out.

[coarse ravine]

They do dont they? Makes it flat

[fickle heart]

We even have precedence for cancelling with Advantage and Disadvantage

[burnt valley]

Play in 2014 rules, become a Hydra and start farming heads

[coarse ravine]

Vulnerability on immunity makes it 0. But Vulnerability on resistance is flat

[snow zephyr]

Just make a bicycle powered decap machine, I'm sure it won't backfire horrendously

[coarse ravine]

Resistance is half. Vulnerable is double so its just flat

[hidden trellis]

Is there any way to prevent a surprise round easily? We are fighting Yuan Ti in our campaign and the DM always starts them all with a surprise round sneaking up on us (like 5 enemies) and there’s only two of us rn (split party)

[fickle heart]

You'd think so, right?

Order of Application

Modifiers to damage are applied in the following order: adjustments such as bonuses, penalties, or multipliers are applied first; Resistance is applied second; and Vulnerability is applied third.

For example, a creature has Resistance to all damage and Vulnerability to Fire damage, and it’s within a magical aura that reduces all damage by 5. If it takes 28 Fire damage, the damage is first reduced by 5 (to 23), then halved for the creature’s Resistance (and rounded down to 11), then doubled for its Vulnerability (to 22).

[coarse ravine]

Alert, weapon of warning or high wis characters?

[hot marlin]

That just makes a 1 hp difference

[valid geyser]

Not a rule per say but the fundamental way saving throws work annoys me in a lot of ways and it’s almost impossible to fix without deviating heavily from the design of 5e

[fickle heart]

We added an entire extra step of calculation for a maximum of 1 HP difference when cancelling out is more intuitive and is used elsewhere in the rules. Whytho?

[burnt valley]

War Wizard + Alert + Weapon of Warning

[hot marlin]

Do extrapolate

[bronze wave]

Alert and high perception. Also being more aware of what they do no way your chars aren’t picking up a few signs right

[marble lion]

Do clarify

[coarse ravine]

Yeah I just make it flat. But I guess raw ya got do all those other numbers lol

[delicate owl]

So reductions > resistances > vulnerabilities...

Weird

[hot marlin]

Well, RAW there is no such thing as a surprise round

[valid geyser]

Mostly as it applies to high level, it’s not fun to be almost impossible to succeed at 2/3rds of your saves while just being decent in two. It isn’t the end of the world for high level 5e but it does annoy me

[fickle heart]

I also make it flat, yeah. I'm still truly searching for a reason why it wouldn't be done that way in 5e, and I've got nothing so far.

[marble lion]

A surprise round is a round of combat where one or more participants are surprised

[hot marlin]

Play a monk and have a paladin buddy.

[bronze wave]

I think it makes sense ngl and for high lvl chars who are soooo strong it’s nice to balance

(Plus there are a lot of ways to get around it with items and certain perks)

Monk and paladin have counters for ex

[valid geyser]

Because every party should be 5 monks and within 10 feet of a paladin and clerics have to concentrate on bless instead of fun high level spells

[hot marlin]

Yes but back in the old day "surprise round" meant a specific thing that specifically was not part of 5e design

[bronze wave]

I mean I do believe 5 paladin would be the best type of party….

[hot marlin]

Jokes aside, I'm honestly happy that even high level PCs will fail saves against low CR enemies

[valid geyser]

Maybe, that just seems more like a bandaid solution because save bonuses are rarer than stuff like advantage and stuff

[bronze wave]

I think it helps balance out super strong parties and again there are workarounds

[hidden trellis]

Is there any familiar or something that helps with this? Currently it’s just been surprised out of the blue

[snow zephyr]

The surprised condition is an interesting take

[burnt valley]

Paladin is more achievable ngl, just resist the urge to smite

[bronze wave]

I have no idea but I doubt it. You could use a familiar as a scout

[valid geyser]

I just think chance of success needs to stay the same for most levels. Because DCs scale and most of your saves don’t, it seems a little strange to me

Ig not needs. I just think it’d be nice

[burnt valley]

Wait why

[hot marlin]

Few things make me as happy as seeing a high level character fail their save against some sort of mind control by a very low CR enemy

[snow zephyr]

Because it's a reminder that the players are still mortal at the end of the day

[hidden trellis]

If we’re already I combat can we not get surprised? I.e if we attack a shady guy early before him and the hidden Yuan Ti attack us can we negate the surprise round?

[hot marlin]

Because 5e made sure that almost nothing becomes irrelevant. Whether you are at level 20 or level 2, the orc army is still a threat

[snow zephyr]

When everyone is sitting around the fire eating at camp, they're still human(oid)

5e makes a lot of stuff irrelevant, but usually not combat

[burnt valley]

I draw the line at Tier 4 but yes, an unfortunate roll is an unfortunate roll

[hot marlin]

The only thing that changes is the way you engage with that threat

[fiery nimbus]

It's funny that vast majority of the spells are non-pernament

[fickle heart]

I do think that there'd be a benefit to everyone (potentially monsters as well) having half-prof in saves to make saves not such a "win" button at times.

[hot marlin]

But even the level 20 party can't just go attack the orc army alone without risking defeat

[fiery nimbus]

Casters being unable to set up permanent fortifications with their spells also mean they can't defend indefinitely

[burnt valley]

The Wizard already having an arbitrary amount of Wraiths after their simulacrum turned into an Atropal as soon as they hit Lvl 17

[burnt valley]

Some spells make it nigh-permanent if they cast on it non-stop

[fiery nimbus]

Duration of 8 hours explicitly means the construct won't least through the rest

Also you can't rest within like 12 hours of the last, I don't remember exact down time

[valid geyser]

To me the problem is more that on level enemies become a bigger issue than they should
I’d expect a level 1 against a CR 1 enemy to have a similar rate of save success than a level 20 against a CR 20
I think the part that I meant when “you can’t fix it without fundamentally altering the design of the game” is because it’s almost an impossible pursuit to do so without doing something radically unlike 5e.
If you try a 3e style three saves with class based scaling, you add level scaling to 5e which is un-5e
If you try AD&D style flat save numbers you stop having it be a d20 test

[marble lion]

Level 20 gameplay isnt meant to reflect level 1 gameplay is it?

[fiery nimbus]

A single level 1 player against CR1 enemy should get slaughtered

[hot marlin]

I suppose I understand but isn't the problem your expectation then?

[unkempt roost]

The one thing you can do to directly affect the difficulty of an encounter without changing anything really is the behavior of the monster

The motivations of the enemy in a fight can drastically affect what they do

[valid geyser]

Against 1 save? Not usually

[snow zephyr]

What's one area you'd like to see rules improved upon? For example, I'd like to see better survival rules

[bronze wave]

I think a lvl20 char has a good chance of beating a cr20 monster

I think it would be easier then if a lvl1 char fought a cr1 monster

[valid geyser]

It’s more that there’s not a great solution to what seems like a really flawed progression

[hot marlin]

Ngl, I'm not seeing the flaw yet

[bronze wave]

Same idk what the issue rlly is lol

[valid geyser]

A level 1 with an uninvedted stat has like a 35% success rate against an on level DC and like, a 65% when invested
At level 20, it becomes like 0-5% uninvested while staying around that range invested
Seems unintentional and wonky to me

[coarse ravine]

With 5 different level 7 auras. Would be wild for sure

Just shield wall everything hahah

[fiery nimbus]

Nah, meant an enemy as a whole

[valid geyser]

Seems like attacks, damage and all that scale at a pretty normal rate across the levels, but because you’re only proficient in some saves, there’s a stagnation that feels really bad there
Ijust think uninvested at level 20 a heroic adventurer should still have a like 20% chance of success in their weak area

[valid geyser]

Well I meant against a save. You misunderstood my point

[bronze wave]

I think that makes sense tho tbf. I think the same is true in reverse you are more specialized in your role. Like a lvl20 char with NO relation to wisdom checks getting better at wisdom saves would be weird no?

Plus it’s a balancing act

[stuck shuttle]

It’s not the exact same. In the order of damage application resistance is applied second followed by vulnerability.

If you have fire resistance and fire vulnerability and take 11 fire damage you’d apply resistance to get 5 (rounding down) then apply vulnerability to get 10 fire damage.

It’s small but important difference. Hopefully this link works (curse mobile formatting).

[valid geyser]

I don’t see why not. A level 20 character should be heroic and fearless, so should have a better chance of succeeding against the save associated with fest effects

And I’m aware there’s no one good solution to this. It’s just an issue with 5e’s scaling

[coarse ravine]

Not all cr1s are created equal. Just like not all cr 20s are created equal. Same can be said for players

I know some cr 2s that will whipe a level 20 character

🧠

Lazy dming to run devourers but still they are deadly

[crimson gulch]

I still never have gotten a kill with an intellect devower

[valid geyser]

I mean intellect devourers are their own thing and that’s fine enough
I just think on average there’s an issue when things are said to be on the same playing field relatively

[burnt valley]

Intellect devourers against martials

[valid geyser]

I guess to me saving throws feel more like skills than other combat things like attack rolls. A fighter doesn’t make spell attacks with int even if that score isn’t good, but you can’t force what saves go at you

[unkempt roost]

The orb of confusion

[snow zephyr]

The issue is that ac vs save from what I've read

[hot marlin]

There is a natural variable caused by character builds. Some builds are just hard counters to some monsters that would normally be too tough, and the opposite is also true

[snow zephyr]

laughs in rust monster

[burnt valley]

Wraiths and Oozes too

[hot marlin]

A hexblade warlock with the ability to see in magical darkness will solo a beholder easily

[snow zephyr]

shadows

[valid geyser]

The best solution to my save issue I’m aware of is a more AD&D style system where saves are a flat number 99% of the time that is independent of where the save comes from (some effects like spells giving a bonus or not to the roll) and you just naturally get better at those saves as you progress. I just think this might be an issue where there’s no perfect fit since I have issues with that too

[snow zephyr]

AD&D 2e is superior

[hot marlin]

I have played a monk that soloed a death tyrant in three rounds before the rest of the party even managed to get close to it

[snow zephyr]

2e was designed by people with waaaaay too much free time

[burnt valley]

ADND Tomb of Horrors is the best module for beginners

[unkempt roost]

There's a hill what do you do

[snow zephyr]

I miss the 2e granular book system

[unkempt roost]

Oh wait im thinking tomb of annihilation

[burnt valley]

How

[hot marlin]

Just got into melee with it, stunned locked it and kept pounding until it died

[valid geyser]

I don’t think d&d really has many of those “hard counters” you mention besides the occasional cheap monster like intellect devourers. Most encounters aren’t supposed to be cheap like that, and there are gonna be times when you have the advantage or not, but the way saves work. Doesn’t feel like that was the designer intent and more the math getting out of hand

[coarse ravine]

? Disintegrate, anti-magic field etc

[snow zephyr]

You wanna know about druids? Here's a book entirely dedicated to druids. You wanna learn more about elves? Don't know why you'd want that, but there's a book on it anyway

[unkempt roost]

Rangers

That class was specifically designed for that

[valid geyser]

And I don’t think d&d needs to be 100% fair, I think the opposite of such. I just kind of expect high and low levels to feel similar in that way

[hot marlin]

Darkness.

[snow zephyr]

Darkness is so underrated

[hot marlin]

Beholders can't blast what they can't see and darkness blinds them

[crystal latch]

Beholders get countered by fog cloud yeah

[snow zephyr]

Counterspell requires sight

[unkempt roost]

Pocket sand

[valid geyser]

Dispel magic doesn’t

[meager fractal]

The purpose of spines and horns is to defend yourself against predators.

As a person who no longer considers himself a D&D expert, what preys on a Tarrasque?

[crystal latch]

Wizards

[snow zephyr]

Grapple+hot iron rod+caster+L+cope+seethe

[hot marlin]

The tarrasque never evolved, it was made.

[snow zephyr]

The roc

[burnt valley]

Commoners (With long bows and mounts)

[coarse ravine]

I mean.... 2014 moon druid elemental shapes... you can just go hangout with things that are supp9sed to petrify you.

[snow zephyr]

Rocs fall, everyone dies

[unkempt roost]

Don't they have dispel vision

[valid geyser]

And you can get knocked out of wild shape. Not a hard counter

[coarse ravine]

Builds can definitely hard counter some monsters. A simple banishment spell can send home alot of big bads

[crystal latch]

5e encounters generally tend to be very "lock and key" where you just need to have the right tool to solve them and if you don't you may have a problem
Sometimes the key is as simple as dealing more damage before taking enough damage that you die
At other times the key is shutting down a monster's movement and teleportation

[hot marlin]

So yeah, a level 6 hexblade with devil sight solos a beholder in theory

[valid geyser]

I mean anti magic cone should just remove darkness as a bonus action

[snow zephyr]

You can body pretty much anything as a level 1 adventurer if you Rube Goldberg it hard enough

[crystal latch]

They can choose to either see you and be unable to target because AMF works vs their own eye rays or not see you and not target you due to LOS requirements