dnd-discussion

[woven flint]

I keep them all up in that combat and don't even get a thanks smh..

Being a Cleric is a thankless job though, sombodies gotta heal

[still plover]

You want the thanks, you share the blame.

[woven flint]

Artanza doesn't expect any thanks lol

He just wants to keep these youngsters alive, I s'ppose

He's just an old tortle fella who found a purpose

[plush hinge]

I was just reading the Tarrasque statblock, cause people always talk about it like its the craziest monster (and they should because it is)

How da hecc you kill that thing?

[fossil hollow]

lots of damage

its pretty easy in 5e, especially at higher levels

[plush hinge]

It's immune to everything but Force, Cold, and Thunder though... and even then it can mess up a lot of spellcasting

[fossil hollow]

magical weapon damage goes through if its 2014

[hot gate]

Yeah at those levels you can just assume that everyone has access to magic damage in some capacity. And in 2024 it only has immunity to Fire and Poison.

[old sluice]

Simple. Don't rely on spells for damage. Rely on weapons

[woven flint]

Simple:
Get good!

[old sluice]

In a tarrasque fight, your spells are for enhancing the team.

And, you know, at high level using spell slots for damage is not the greatest idea

[humble cairn]

Beast Master Ranger laughs in all Force damage

[plush hinge]

Whats like the recommended level?

[hot gate]

Level 20 all around, though I could see it from 17 onwards

[old sluice]

The recommended level for what?

[plush hinge]

Even with my druid being oops all cold damage, I dont think i could handle it lol (I am only level 14 though)

[old sluice]

The tarrasque? Ideally never. The point of CR 30 monsters is that you should probably try not to fight them. But if you do, give it your all.

[plush hinge]

Ohhh

[glass granite]

Btw Tokii, if you’ll be so kind as to check your DM’s

[woven flint]

Yeah, realistically you're like
Not supposed to fight Asmodeus, Tiamat or Bahamut either (also cr 30)
But you can TRY..
it's just ill-advised

[glass granite]

Yeah I see a Tarrasque and I’m BOLTING

The only steps I’m taking in the event of an Tarrasque attack are big ones

[woven flint]

Takes a lot of Grit and careful planning to fight a Cr 30 creature tbh lmao

[marble lion]

Or the indomitable gambler spirit

He will miss, trust

[woven flint]

It's not gonna miss

[marble lion]

Nah I'd save

[fossil hollow]

level i fought a tarrasque the earliest is 12

[old sluice]

To be fair, out of all the CR 30 monsters the Tarrasque is the least dangerous

[marble lion]

True

[old sluice]

Not just in manner of destructive capabilities.

[marble lion]

Tarrasque is famous for being weirdly weak

[fossil hollow]

its effectively a big punching bag and natural disaster, it plays as such

[old sluice]

You're not fighting Asmodeus. You're fighting all the resources at his disposal and Asmodeus

[fossil hollow]

because permanently killing one was more convoluted and harder before

[marble lion]

That sounds very accurate

[woven flint]

Yeah, a Terrasque is still just a giant melee brute that only does the normal physical damage types (and has an attack that involves a Thundering roar, methinks?)

[old sluice]

Yeah, the thundering thing is actually its most dangerous attack

[fossil hollow]

you needed a damn wish for a chance to permanently end it in older editions

[marble lion]

Id love a tarrasque attack in a campaign

[old sluice]

If you combine it with the Tarrasque's burrow speed... It could just stay safe below and shake the earth

[plush hinge]

If it wasnt for it having advantage on saving throws, and AC 25, I could probably mess it up a little with some of my sillier spells like uhhh... flesh to stone maybe?

[hot gate]

There was some silly memery around the 2014 version, but it's gotten a significant upgrade in 2024.

[old sluice]

Honestly, I don't like the tarrasque. Conceptually, it's just a worse dragon without the nuances of dragons.

[bronze wave]

I plan to have 2 of them attack Avernus randomly on the middle of a deal. I expect it to be fun

[marble lion]

I plan on my tier 4 sequel to feature a mulharand construct version of a tarrasque in a few years

[old sluice]

There is narratively little to no difference between a tarrasque attack and a mad dragon rampaging.

[woven flint]

I'd honestly doubt it.
Thing has a HUGE Con save anyway

[fossil hollow]

by that time you have so many save effects it doesnt want to fail you'll even run through its legensary resistances a lot faster

[bronze wave]

I just like the thing itself. It’s so dnd I feel. Like it’s so integrated in its culture

[marble lion]

Its more like godzilla than a dragon

[fossil hollow]

gojira is much more calculating tham a tarrasque is though, even shin gojira was

[marble lion]

True

[plush hinge]

It can also just Choose to save 3 times a day so I would need to force it to save on stupider stuff first lol

[fossil hollow]

its 6 now

[marble lion]

Just theme wise i mean

[woven flint]

I'm saying Flesh to Stone would absolutely be your worst option to try and defeat it, friend

[fossil hollow]

eh, goji only ever acted in retaliation

[plush hinge]

But maaaan if you could turn a Tarrasque to Stone that would be so cooool

[marble lion]

Also true but not what i mean

[fossil hollow]

thats how it was defeated first time in one of my campaigns. its part of the cavern wall

[marble lion]

I mean big unstoppable force rolling through and leaving, big dino

[plush hinge]

Like imagine your party protecting you so you can keep your concentration up

And doing something to mess up its saving throws

[glass granite]

How does one protect themselves against a Tarrasque

[woven flint]

Frankly, I'd hate that

[fossil hollow]

summon a kraken to take most of the aggro

[marble lion]

Isnt tarrasque immune to spells?

[old sluice]

By having an evacuation protocol and an alarm system

[fossil hollow]

no

[bronze wave]

You push it back

[woven flint]

I'd rather not have my party focus on protecting me while also trying to fight a Terrasque

[marble lion]

I wonder where i have that from then

[plush hinge]

Its immune to paralysis but not petrification~ important distinction

[old sluice]

With good divination spells you can probably anticipate when and where the tarrasque will appear. There's a margin of error but it's better than nothing

[fossil hollow]

older editions probably

as said before, its stronger anf stupider to kill then

[marble lion]

Maybe. I only really look up 2014 but could have seen randomly older stuff

[fossil hollow]

2014 one is a joke

[old sluice]

... Idea: An academy of wizards where the divination wing has a secret calamities observatory. A place where they dedicate their spells and knowledge to scry and anticipate the known "greater calamities" such as the Tarrasque

[glass granite]

You could also just try and seal it in the astral plane, make it the bag man’s problem

[marble lion]

Ill give it a clownnose then

[woven flint]

Shit, I was 5 Hp in Waterdeep during a fight as a Cleric and I was just healing everyone else the entire time (the only way I really contributed was with a Water Elemental from the Water Bowl magic item)

[fossil hollow]

the gith: return to sender

[plush hinge]

Here's the strat. Get on its back before starting it lol

[knotty pasture]

I was taking a quick look at a Waterdeep campaign and only just found out that one of the common enemies is a Gunslinger that fires poisonous bullets from a pistol

[glass granite]

guh

[woven flint]

That.. would probably be an awful idea.

[glass granite]

The second best kind!

[knotty pasture]

I originally would have thought that NPCs basically wouldn't have access to firearms at all in official settings

[plush hinge]

Whats it gonna do smash me with its giant tail- OH GODS-

[woven flint]

Ah, yes, let me get on the back of the giant hulking rampage monster who wants me to be close to it so It can eat me

Just FLY when fighting a Terrasque smh.

[plush hinge]

It cant eat you if you're on its back... can it?

[old sluice]

Other idea: The tarrasque actually emerged from a pit in the world, aeons ago. Since then, the pit was sealed all the way to the underdark, and a temple was built above it. Now the pit is shaking again, and the head priest of the temple died of a stroke, his final words being "The womb is still fertile"

[glass granite]

Famous last words right here

[woven flint]

There's nothing in the rules that states it can't attack you when you're on its back, by the way.

[bronze wave]

ATP… you can eat it

[plush hinge]

How flexible could it be?-

[bronze wave]

Can I roll for bite?

[fossil hollow]

also, a tarrasque's arms as lanky as hell

[woven flint]

Mutated ahh creature, honestly

[fossil hollow]

theyre no trex arms. that thing is rocking knuckle stance

[fossil hollow]

i cannot wait til you face Typhon. try telling that to him then

[woven flint]

"Never underestimate a creature that's evolved specifically to kill EVERYTHING."

[knotty pasture]

Chk, ghaiks

[plush hinge]

Whats like The Spell That you guys would say is like the win condition against a Tarrasque?

[woven flint]

Malaketh is too friendly to do such a thing 😭

[plush hinge]

theres gotta be something thats like an int or wisdom save

[woven flint]

Wish.
But that's completely dm dependant on if something goes bad.

[plush hinge]

Noooo surely there's something as big as flesh to stone but on an int/wisdom save that isnt frighten or charm since its immune to that...

Maybe Banish but thats boring

[woven flint]

What's with your obsession of flesh to stone by the way?
Like.. it's not really a good spell 😭

[woven flint]

Terrasques are material plane creatures, so they wouldn't be completely banished for good like certain monster types
(Aberrations, Fiends, Celestials, Elementals, Fey, Undead (?))

[plush hinge]

Cause im level 14 and just got that spell lol

[knotty pasture]

I'm sure when the time comes, there would have been methods to deal with the Terrasque

[plush hinge]

But also again the idea of making a giant Tarrasque statue sounds sick af

[glass granite]

Could you try to sickening radiance the thing repeatedly till its exhaustion destroys it?

[knotty pasture]

Like how Tyranny of Dragons would have presented methods to deal with Tiamat

Rather than shoving four level 12 adventurers into fighting a god with nothing

You can have 16 level 12 adventurers and still have a fair chance to get wiped

[glass granite]

the humble pair of bags of holding and a suicidal maniac

[plush hinge]

I dont think the campaign im running will have us fight a Tarrasque at any point. But ive been feeling like my character is strong and was like "lol what if I could solo it"
(The answer it turns out is almost certainly not)

[woven flint]

WRONG!

I'm making that Terrasque a mother. /joking

[knotty pasture]

It depends what your DM gives you in the end

[fossil hollow]

its con saves dont make waiting it out worth it. it can also burrow

[glass granite]

Figured

[knotty pasture]

You can probably end a Tarrasque with a dozen smokepowder barrels if your DM permits it

[fossil hollow]

hey, two barrel bombs per hunt

[woven flint]

They're

Immune to fire damage

[pliant sapphire]

BG3 aah tactic

[knotty pasture]

Smokepowder Barrels deal force damage too

[plush hinge]

I wanna freeze it

[fossil hollow]

two barrel bombs per player

you also get one dragonator to use

[woven flint]

Solution:
Eat the Terrasque before it eats you

Or beg Bahamut for help idk

[glass granite]

The solution to many things
“nom”

[fossil hollow]

hope he isnt in fizban form

[woven flint]

Yeah.

N o m

[plush hinge]

is there any spell that will let me freeze a Tarrasque?

[glass granite]

Wish

[woven flint]

Fizban and Bahamut are dating wym? Smh /j

[pliant sapphire]

Command to burn his legendary resistance and then psychic scream

[plush hinge]

Besides wish lol

[plush hinge]

Hes immune to charm

[fossil hollow]

command isnt a charm

[plush hinge]

Ohhhh

[fossil hollow]

its also a wis save... which is very good for a tarrasque

[woven flint]

Thats why command is a scary spell for most creatures

Command:
"Griddy."

[plush hinge]

Can you command it to hit itself?

[fossil hollow]

remind me, does their spell turning only work on line and attack roll spells?

[glass granite]

Nope

[pliant sapphire]

command: prone

[fossil hollow]

theres no word for hit yourself

[red steppe]

No need, just get commoners with +1 longbows on horses

[woven flint]

Nope.
Only one worded commands and only the listed ones

[plush hinge]

And magic missles

[fossil hollow]

time to upgrade it to all spells

[red steppe]

I kid you not, the Tarrasque wont be able to catch up

[woven flint]

You.
I despise you

[plush hinge]

Command: Self-flagalate

[pliant sapphire]

Why +1 longbows? they only hit it with crits 😂

[fossil hollow]

stop him from being released :3

[woven flint]

Nah, imma make him a single mother.

[red steppe]

It works, even if its really slow

[fossil hollow]

he already has a loving wife

[woven flint]

No, HE'S going to be a mother.

Tokii, Lord of Freaky moment

[pliant sapphire]

and commoners are not proeficient with longbows, so.. 0 damage?

[fossil hollow]

and several children. Hydra, Chimera, Cerberus

[fossil hollow]

you dont add pb to damage

its still a d8 + 1

[plush hinge]

Is there a spell that can give it disadvantage on saving throws? Lol

[glass granite]

There’s bane, which is a reduction

[woven flint]

You can use weapons you aren't proficient in and still fight with them

You're just...
Worse with them

[fossil hollow]

there are many effects that apply disadvantage, but that just makes it roll normal.

[pliant sapphire]

yeah, I'm still a little sleepy

[red steppe]

Theres Eloquence

[fossil hollow]

advantage + disadvantage = neutral roll

[glass granite]

Hi still a little sleepy, I’m Nugget

[old sluice]

Are we still talking about finding a tarrasque cheese?

[fossil hollow]

yes, unfortunately

[red steppe]

Nah, just finding a way to get disadvantage on saves

[plush hinge]

True

[fossil hollow]

i got bingo already

[woven flint]

Idea:
Just let the Terrasque rampage until its sleepy then read it a bedtime story.

[pliant sapphire]

Cold caster + bane

[plush hinge]

I want specifically a way to make a Tarrasque an ice statue

[old sluice]

Easy. Kill it, freeze the corpse

[fossil hollow]

whats a d4 gonna do when its proficient in virtually every save and has magic resistance

[plush hinge]

Lol

I can put Elemental Bane Cold on it

[pliant sapphire]

Everything helps

[plush hinge]

doesnt really solve the saving throw thing

[fossil hollow]

by that point, you got more spells to use

[plush hinge]

I can also use Frost Strike to ... maybe knock it prone

[woven flint]

Another Idea:
Get a scroll of Titan Summoning
Summon a Terrasque and let them fall in love and be a happy couple and then they won't want to destroy the world until they get a divorce in about 2-3 years because they weren't meant for eachother ig

[plush hinge]

Oh wait sorry slippery magic

frost strike is a con save too nevermind that one lol

Slippery Magic is just on any save that did cold damage lol

But I think most of mine are con saves

[pliant sapphire]

Cold caster -1d4, bane -1d4, disadvantage via Harper Teamwork

[woven flint]

Sigh...

Con save spells are often the most fun, but a lot of things you'd really want to use them on have pretty high con and it saddens me 😔

[plush hinge]

Maaan I gotta take Cold Caster next feat for sure

[viral kraken]

does that let you use verbal components even when you have a severe cold?

[pliant sapphire]

Its pretty good. Its only for the next saving thow but still pretty easy to apply

[plush hinge]

It lets you negate their defenses

doesnt even specify cold defenses so like... busted af???

[fossil hollow]

negate defenses means nothing mechanically

[plush hinge]

Oh...

Thought it just turned off resistances lol

[fossil hollow]

the only thing it does is subtract d4 from the save, thats it

[plush hinge]

Okay thats probably not that busted

But thematically I should probably still have it lol

Guys wait im a druid, Ill just turn into a terrasque and fight it

[humble cairn]

I'm more a fan of Fairy Trickster.

[woven flint]

If only

[plush hinge]

(My druid cant actually wildshape anyway cause my subclass replaces my wildshape with a snow shield...)

[viral kraken]

replaced it or added that option?

[knotty pasture]

Its very rare for Wild Shape to be straight up replaced

[noble basin]

most wildshapes add yea

no all of them actually

[knotty pasture]

Even Spores and Stars just add an additional transformation instead of disabling Wild Shaping

[foggy river]

So... this might be a question that has been asked many times over the past year... but why do more powerful monsters in the new Monster Manual suddenly have massive Initiative bonuses? It's to the point where at higher levels, you might as well not roll intitiative at all except to see when the party goes after the monster has. In addition, why do some caster types in the MM have three blasts that do more damage each than any spell a PC caster can use, and have them at unlimited uses?

[frozen burrow]

Working on a backstory for my first D&D character in a while.

Homebrew world, eladrin noble courtier lady. Going to be a warlock.

[fossil hollow]

because players beating the crap out of a monster before it can make a move was common. as for the casters, they lost a lof ot heir spells, so the attacks replace the lost dpr

[plush hinge]

Its probably add but I've been playing like its replaced lol. Circle of Winter is a homebrew tho anyway

[noble basin]

going last is really bad especially if youre a single guy cause then you just get got by a high level spell with no save

[knotty pasture]

That's probably why Druids are hard to master imo

[fossil hollow]

all in all, its to make monsters stronger than their (sucky) 2014 versions

[plush hinge]

Also guys I thiyght of a Terrasque cheese strat!

DROWN IT!

[knotty pasture]

If your subclass gives an additional transformation, its too easy to just focus on that transformation instead of using every Wild Shape option at your arsenal

[fossil hollow]

and actually hit their intened cr

[fossil hollow]

high con stat

[knotty pasture]

I can't remember the last time I wild shaped into anything as a Spores Druid besides using Symbiotic Entity

[hot gate]

That's going to take like 10+ minutes

[old sluice]

High con just means it takes longer to drown. But it will eventually drown

It doesn't have a swim speed, does it?

[fossil hollow]

100 rounds is more than enough to swim out of virtually any ocean

[old sluice]

Depends on where you are.

[plush hinge]

Who said anything about swimming. Shape water a bubble around its head lol

[fossil hollow]

it can still swim??

[foggy river]

And in return they get many times the DPR they "lost", to the point they can one-shot many PC's of a level equal to the CR of the caster...

[foggy river]

So now the party always goes last...

[old sluice]

100 rounds is an hour. If you're far enough away from the shore, it can take a lot longer than that

[knotty pasture]

Honestly at this point I may as well redirect the question back to "this campaign most likely has possible solutions to the Tarrasque other than brute forcing it or having funny cheese methods"

[foggy river]

100 rounds is 10 minutes

[fossil hollow]

not really? as someon whose been running 2024 exclusively now, i have yet to see an archmage oneshot a pc at the intended levels

[old sluice]

... Oh yeah.

That's even worse.

[fossil hollow]

4d10 + 5 is an average of 27 damage

[hot gate]

Have you actually played with the 2024 rules? That's regularly not the case.

It simply means the monster often doesn't go last.

[fossil hollow]

archmage gets three arcane blasts, so its average dpr is 81

at most, it can one turn a level 8 pc to unconscious

[faint crow]

For the most part, these monsters with high initiative bonuses are also Legendary and high CR—you’re unlikely to encounter one that will always go faster than an average PC in most campaigns.

[foggy river]

I'm not talking about Archmage. I'm talking about things like the CR:6 Mage. 3 x bursts doing 3d8+3 Force. That's 48 hp damage. The average lvl 6 Wizard with a decent con has 30 HP.

[fossil hollow]

well within the difficulty

theres 3 other players for a reason

monster vs one PC is always in favour of the monster, if the CR matches the level

[pliant sapphire]

Well, wizards have many defensive strategies to not be one shotted too

[faint crow]

Not to mention the Wizard probably took Shield and will shrug off most of those blasts.

[hot gate]

It simply makes it so battles are more tense and pcs actually need to use their resources.

I love the 2024 monster designs. They feel great in play

[plush hinge]

Whats the biggest monster I could realistically Flesh to Stone successfully?

[noble basin]

That's just not true I'm level 3 and have 20 hp taking fixed

[fossil hollow]

all in all, monsters feel actually worth their Cr in 2024. they were shitty feeling in 2014

[faint crow]

I do think the MM’25 is the biggest improvement of the core books.

[fossil hollow]

oh, my dragons going last.

oh it just spams multiattack claw bite claw

but yeah, as someone whose ben running almost entirely 2024 games since the core books came out. the monsters feel better

[foggy river]

That's why I said average. Most wizards will have 12-13 Con, meaning +1, or a total of 5 hp/level or so. Oh, sorry, 32 HP since lvl 1 is max.

[hot gate]

It may also be worth noting that CR 6 =/= PC level 6

[foggy river]

I know this

[fossil hollow]

cr 6 is a medium fight for 4 level 6s

[faint crow]

Wizards are SAD. There’s no reason for them not to take a 14 CON.

[plush hinge]

Guys this one time I got multi attacked by a Balgura and it didnt even get through my snow shield thing, and then I threw it in a pit

[foggy river]

And I've been running since 1983, the changes just feel arbitrary and did not make sense to me

[hot gate]

Then I encourage you to actually try out some 2024 monsters.

[foggy river]

As if I haven't...

[fossil hollow]

¯_(ツ)_/¯

[hot gate]

Oh, you've had bad experiences with it?

[fossil hollow]

ive had worse times running 2014 monsters

at least specfically from the mm

[foggy river]

Yes, I've had a small group of Mages literally wipe out a party of lvl 8's. The Rogue and Bard were erased in the first round, leaving a Fighter and Cleric.

Small group = 3

[fossil hollow]

how many mages?

[foggy river]

Focused fire erased the Fighter on the following round, and the cleric after that.

[fossil hollow]

i take it 2024 classes

[foggy river]

Yep

[fossil hollow]

well, yeah, focus firing is always gonna mean someone is going to die

[faint crow]

To be fair, that is technically a Hard encounter.

[fossil hollow]

its no different if you fireballed the same fighter in 2014 with 3 mages

[foggy river]

There's one HUGE difference - these Mages can keep up that level of damage indefinitely in long-running encounters.

[faint crow]

Most fights aren’t expected to run longer than 3 rounds. That’s what 5e is built around.

[fossil hollow]

i thought the average is 3 rounds

[foggy river]

Also, NPC's being able to do things PC's can never do is a horrible thing as a player. It's like "If everyone except us can do this, why are we the ones trying to save the village / country / world? Everyone else is more powerful than us."

[fossil hollow]

and im getting 100 xp above moderate with 4 level 8s and 3 mages

[hot gate]

The average fight might not be, but monsters are balanced around that.

[fossil hollow]

thats always been something that you ask in dnd regardless??

why arent the silverhand sisters doing more? why isnt mordenkainen or tasha helping

some of those are literally Chosen

[hot gate]

That seems like a setup problem, not a system problem.

[foggy river]

No, because in most editions of D&D, there was never anything an NPC human, elf, what have you could do that wasn't part of a character class. And the characters you reference still followed the rules of their class, the PC's could eventualy get there. It's when literally every single mage has powers the pc's will NEVER have, no matter how powerful they get

[faint crow]

The repeatedly blasting is also just an abstraction for other spell use. Monsters aren’t 1-to-1 for PCs, which is much less annoying to run than if they were.

[foggy river]

That is explicitly a system problem. The average member of a Mage's Guild can do things no player character will ever be able to do.

[hot gate]

I at least agree that it can cause some ludonarrative dissonance, but it's a price that has been paid for quick play.

[fossil hollow]

theyve been moving away from pc sheets for npcs for a long damn while now

[hot gate]

and that isn't a problem if that mage isn't acting like a player character

[fossil hollow]

also... again, having three monsters focus firing on one pc will definitely earn some kills no matter what

[foggy river]

Meanwhile, how are they calculating the ridiculous Initiative bonuses for the stronger critters? How does a Lich have a +17 Initiative?

[fossil hollow]

dex + expertise

[hot gate]

That's actually a good question. We assume they get some expertise, yeah.

[foggy river]

And beyond a certain point, why not just say "The monster always goes first"?

[fossil hollow]

its usually a mix of dex + pb or + expertise

[pliant sapphire]

Because can roll a 1

[fossil hollow]

thats kinda why they have the static score after the initiative bonus

a lich can roll with a +17 or just use 27 for their initiative

[hot gate]

At the point where pcs are fighting a lich, you bet there are some ridiculous initiative bonuses on the pc side as well. That or good/bad luck.

[fossil hollow]

its Cr 21

in 2014, liches were built like paper

[faint crow]

Or the lich is just expected to act first. It’s a nigh-omnipotent wielder of magic that’s spent centuries preparing to slay intruders.

[fossil hollow]

nonmagical bps resistance meant nothing when the party already has decent gear.

[pliant sapphire]

A lvl20 War magic wizard with alert, max dex and max int have. 6 + 5 + 5 = 16

[fossil hollow]

not including if they have epic boons or items to increase

[faint crow]

Barring any spell shenanigans too.

[foggy river]

So the party is expected to minmax, and not play concept characters.

[faint crow]

Not at all.

[fossil hollow]

now, the monster that makes me question the 2024 MM is cloud giants. incapacitation with no save on an attack roll is wild

[faint crow]

If anything, it discourages min-maxing initiative, as unlike 2014, maxing it out doesn’t make you auto-win against any monster.

[fossil hollow]

no. theyre always assuming that players are built competently, not minmaxed

[foggy river]

Yeah, it doesn't even give you a better than 50-50 to go ahead of a monster

[foggy river]

Alright, so "competantly", not concept build. Locking a playstyle out.

[fossil hollow]

in 2014, monsters had shit initiative. especially the bulkier ones like dragons

[fossil hollow]

ok, what the hecc is a concept build

[pliant sapphire]

The subclass that hurts the most those high NPC iniciatives is the assasin rogue

[foggy river]

Concept build: You make a character based on what that character would do, not on what makes the most game sense. Flavor over function.

[fossil hollow]

thats always the cost you take when you build such a character. id say its even worse to do so in 2014

[humble cairn]

The two are not exclusive of each other

[fossil hollow]

especially if it involves willy nilly multiclassing

[hot gate]

You can support that playstyle like you could always support it: not assume that you throw hard rated encounters at your PCs and expect them to be fine.

[fossil hollow]

and yeh, you adapt the difficulty to your table

im not throwin ToA worthy encounters and dungeons in a more relaxed game

not all campaign are meat grinders

not all campaigns are more social or roleplay focused either

[foggy river]

Hm.

[fossil hollow]

theres a spctrum of Witchlight to Tomb of Annihilation still.

[humble cairn]

Love that Witchlight has ways to be entirely non combat.

[old sluice]

Witchlight is interesting, out of the hardbacks of 5e I think it's the third best.

[humble cairn]

I also really like Radiant Citadel

[foggy river]

It's just that it seems the only changes that made no sense were the casters with higher DPS than a character twice their CR in level, and creatures with initiatives in the 17+ range. All the other changes in 2025 made sense, those just felt like something aimed explicitly at the minmaxers

[lyric idol]

You dont make a build and decide a personality and character based on that? I had a lotta fun making a gambling merchant goblin wild magic user who loves gambling.

[humble cairn]

Both ways are valid

[fossil hollow]

they have the same rough dpr, 2024 just makes it more consistent.

you can upcast a spell mages has in 2014 after all

nothing is stopping them from fireballing at 4th-5th level all their 3 rounds of existence

[lyric idol]

I'm ngl 2025 and 2024 def the years of the min max. Was watching Dungeon Dudes videos on Faerun Heroes subclasses and while bannerette and a winterwalker are bad everything else was made for minmax.

[fossil hollow]

ehhh

knowledge is neat but its fine

not something that beats twilight or peace

really, the only one that stands out is bladesinger

[hot gate]

"Made for minmax" is a strange thing to say imo. Minmax is something you do. Sure, some features enable it more than others, but at the end of the day it's always a players choice.

[fossil hollow]

but thats because its a wizard

[old sluice]

If we had to rank them, anthology excluded, I would probably go:
Chains of Asmodeus
Phandelver and Below
Curse of Strahd
Witchlight
Waterdeep
Icewind Dale
Tomb of Annihilation
Out of the Abyss
Tyranny of Dragons
Icespire Peak
Stormwreck Isle
Descent Into Avernus
Storm King's Thunder
Eve of Ruin

[pliant sapphire]

And is basically the same, only a few changes

[fossil hollow]

genie paladin is neat, but still a paladin, even if it has a good aura and CDs

[humble cairn]

I feel like players just demolishing enemies without them getting to go is boring, which is probably also why they changed surprise.

[old sluice]

I'm 50-50 on that change. Surprise may have been a bit too strong, but now I feel like it's a bit too weak.

[pliant sapphire]

And spellfire sorcerer is not that great

[fossil hollow]

as a dm whose been on the otherside too many times, i kind get bored as well

[lyric idol]

I mean I'd be lying to say I havent minmaxed. I especially did so on Wild Magic Sorcerer. Quick Cast a levelled spell and trigger wild magic, cast sorcerer's burst with advantage to make sure next turn Wild magic would trigger again.

[old sluice]

On the other side, when you're the DM and get to surprise the PCs, it feels great

[fossil hollow]

ah, right forgot theres a difference in optimizing and minmaxxing

[humble cairn]

I feel like surprise is just about right now

[hot gate]

And at the same time, the unspoken expectation was that you don't do it to the pcs, because that would feel super bad. So in the end it was just a player tool. And a not very fun one at that.

[old sluice]

Well, it feels great the first time. After a while it kind of loses its charm

[fossil hollow]

yeah, youd get chewed out for using ambushers

[pliant sapphire]

Well, you are using the subclass mechanics, thats nots entirely minmaxing

[fossil hollow]

yeah, thats literally wild magic sorc's intended gameplay loop

[hot gate]

I love my "chaos every turn" 2024 wild magic. It's great.

[fossil hollow]

no more "DM may I" feels better

[limber trail]

my favourite game of, is this minmaxing or is this playing the subclass the way it's intended

[old sluice]

I'm starting to think I don't know what minmaxing even means

[hot gate]

Take a peek in #optimization and you'll get reminded real quick.

[fossil hollow]

i havent touched that term for months now lol

i just use optimizing lmao

[lyric idol]

Its my favorite. 2024 Wild magic is definitely my favorite subclass. It just has something for roleplay, for skill checks, etc.

[hot gate]

It's a subclass I personally love to play and I also love it when a player of mine plays it. Super fun. Best of both worlds.

[limber trail]

minmaxing is a very loaded term

with a lot of unhelpful stereotypes associated

[lyric idol]

I kinda wish fighter rogue and ranger would get their own wild magic subclasses. Barbarian could use theirs updated too.

[fossil hollow]

barb's wild magic table feels so sad

[hot gate]

Yeah for sure

[lyric idol]

In 2014 it was fun but, more importantly, safe. Which is an upside and a downside.

[limber trail]

I don't think every class needs a wild equivalent, it's sorta like the other subclass themes (fey subclasses, divine subclasses, mind magic subclasses, etc) where a few is nice but too many and it feels gimicky.

[hot gate]

I don't think it necessary needs a wild magic option, but I do like my "random table" subclasses.

[lyric idol]

Okay not every class needs one, but I think Rogue and Ranger specifically would benefit from it.

[fossil hollow]

i know lot of people now think we have too many teleporting subclasses. more classes getting wild magic would be the same

[knotty pasture]

Just Barb and Sorc is enough with the random effects

[hot gate]

I'm looking forward to see a 2025 alchemist in play.

[fossil hollow]

we already got... archfey, fey wanderer, cartographer, world tree... am i mising any teleporters?

[limber trail]

I think they fit barbarian and sorcerer already because those each have connections to notions of either the wilds and that which can't be tamed, or powers that are themselves unable to be controlled. If anything, I think druid is the best fit for wild magic, I could also see ranger, but I don't think any classes need it.

[fossil hollow]

i need more bread to teleport

[hot gate]

shadow monk 🥷

[limber trail]

true

[fossil hollow]

good catch

oh ig EK technically now too

[old sluice]

I think a random table monk, wizard or artificer subclass would be a disaster. Those are classes defined by their control.

[fossil hollow]

Arcane Charge or something. teleport when you cast a spell during attack action

[pliant sapphire]

Horizon Walker ranger

[fossil hollow]

yeah, lots of teleport gimmicks in 2024

[limber trail]

It's only when you action surge, and only at level 15, so it's pretty rare, probably not as teleporty as some other subclasses. But still true

[fossil hollow]

oooh

[limber trail]

I honestly thought of echo knight which is decently teleporty

[pliant sapphire]

Trickery cleric too

[lyric idol]

I wish Artificer launched with more subclasses.

[limber trail]

5 isn't terrible, although it would be nicer if we knew for sure that it would be getting more subclasses down the track

[lyric idol]

I think Cartographer, while RPG heavy, will still be a fun class to playm

[lyric idol]

Yeah Artificer got basically abandoned after its eberron book dropped.

[limber trail]

it has been like

[lyric idol]

At least in 2014.

[limber trail]

ah yeah fair enough

[lyric idol]

Idk if its just because Artificer isnt allowed in a lot of campaigns because its eberron content (idk why people seem to heavily dislike Eberron content)

[knotty pasture]

Artificer dropped in 2020, granted

[fossil hollow]

.... is last war 2020?

[knotty pasture]

Wait I thought Artificer came with Tasha's was it not

[fossil hollow]

nope

first printing was last war

eberron, home plane of artificers

[lyric idol]

I think Eberron first then Tashas.

[knotty pasture]

Oh yeah right Last War was 2019

Its still relatively new I'd say, the other 12 classes got a 5 year head start

[inner silo]

Yo guys! If i want to play a myconid ranger but i like the story of my current character, how much sense would it make to kill the current character but have them be revived as a "myconid zombie" that retained their memories and broke free from myconid control?

[fossil hollow]

kinda cant wait for no. 14 with psion at some point

[fossil hollow]

ask your DM

[knotty pasture]

I agree, another int class would do wonders

[foggy river]

About Wild Magic Sorcs... They removed the one thing that got Wild Magic Sorcs banned at a lot of tables I knew - a first level WMS can no longer TPK the party in the first couple levels with a fireball dropped right at their feet.

[inner silo]

Oki

[fossil hollow]

yeah, the chance to fireball at freaking level 1 is a bit wild

[inner silo]

New wild magic sorcerer is amazing

[limber trail]

Questions about what makes sense and what's fine for the world are always questions for you and your DM, not a public discord server

[inner silo]

Alrighty

[limber trail]

Our opinions hold absolutely no weight in your campaign

[knotty pasture]

But what if I want to embrace my inner barrelmancy goblin self

No DM should stop me from art

[inner silo]

Whats barrelmancy

[knotty pasture]

If they did they aren't appreciating mushroom clouds

[limber trail]

to be fair 2024 got it a little better, you can only do it at level 3

And apparently third level parties can take multiple fireballs now, Ti.

[inner silo]

You can choose where you shoot the fireball in 2024

[knotty pasture]

The act of using excessive smokepowder barrels or related items to clear an encounter

[inner silo]

I see

[fossil hollow]

i survived a fireball at level 2, yall were fiiine

[knotty pasture]

Its funny because with enough smokepowder barrels you can one turn almost all encounters

[lyric idol]

I miss level 1 subclasses and think subclasses should be tailored to level 1 for all classes. For me a subclass is as vital to your character and their backstory as an occupation.

[fossil hollow]

it was a modified flaming skeleton that also almost did my level 2 fighter in

[knotty pasture]

The practicality of this depends on smokepowder barrels existing at all in a campaign sadly, and whether your DM allows you to barrelmancy your way out of something

[fossil hollow]

use beer kegs

[limber trail]

this is something that is very possible in a game like BG3 and very hard in any campaign where there is a DM with the active power to say no

[knotty pasture]

BG3 gives you free smokepowder barrels like candy

It is an art that DMs should appreciate more

[lyric idol]

Bg3 was made for barrellmancy.

[limber trail]

I agree with the second half of that sentence but to be honest it is very possible to just pick a subclass and play the character that way. I usually have an idea of what my character will take at level 3, even if it's a level 1 start.

[inner silo]

Like one player readies a enlarge when he sees a barrel flying in the sky, another readies a fire bolt or similar spell when he sees explosive powder, and another catapults the smokebarrel at the enemies?

[knotty pasture]

No its usually more simple than that, one places a bunch of barrels around someone somehow, and just ignites the barrel

[limber trail]

There is nothing stopping a level 1 sorcerer from flavouring all of their spells as mind magic in the leadup to taking abberant mind

[foggy river]

To an extent I agree. Now a Warlock potentially doesn't even know who they signed a Pact with until lvl 3 if the DM is feeling froggy, and a Paladin apparantly hasn't even sword their oath until lvl 3.

[lyric idol]

Newer players won't though. I remember my first time playing, it took days of pondering after reaching level 3 to decide what subclass I was going to be.

[limber trail]

that is a very big somehow.

[knotty pasture]

Dropping items from your inventory doesn't cost action points, so you just need enough barrels to walk around and surround the enemy

The issue is how many you can carry in the first place and how many the DM is willing to humor you with it

[limber trail]

A DM could easily say it's an action to place and set up a barrel. Plus, there are some very good questions a DM will ask as to the logistics of carrying more than one barrel

[knotty pasture]

Yeah that's the issue, the DM needs to be on broad with it

Also barrels aren't just omnipresent in a campaign so...

[limber trail]

Also very true

[inner silo]

Sounds very expensive tbh

[knotty pasture]

They usually aren't buyable, its just part of looting

[lyric idol]

For me the oath thing for Paladins doesnt make sense. You already get all the benefits of an oath besides the sub abilities that come from specific oaths. Its like "I swear I'll make an oath. It'll take some time and the oath I take depends on the abilities I want, but when I decide I'll swear upon that oath. Now please give me paladin class and abilities."

[inner silo]

Ah i see. Sounds like rare and campaign dependent loot

[old sluice]

Also, I think gunpowder doesn't work in the Forgotten Realms

[knotty pasture]

Smokepowder is dnd gunpowder

[limber trail]

Yeah for me, if you want a barrel of explosives, we are putting a lot of effort into finding a single barrel. You will find maybe a small handful over a campaign.

[inner silo]

Some classes should get their subclass at level 1

[wet trail]

new warlock game guys anyone excited

[old sluice]

Take it this way:
The first level warlock has not signed the pact yet. The warlock is learning to become a proper vessel for the pact, which requires preparation.

[foggy river]

Yes, but it's not gunpowder. It's explicitly magical, and can't be made on the march like Napoleon's army made black powder on the march.

[tender pier]

Hmmm, I'm currently in a dilema

I wanted to make a chaotix good Black dragon that is just misunderstood but idk how

[lyric idol]

My major opinion is all classes should get their subclass at level 1. Reason being: its just as important to your character as background/occupation. Even if real abilities only kick in at level 3, getting a subclass should be at level 1.

[foggy river]

Meanwhile, Grayhawk uses explicitly Black Powder

[knotty pasture]

Wait till we get our hands on Runepowder, I tell you...

[inner silo]

Clerics are a bit funny too imo

[inner silo]

Tbh sounds reasonable

[foggy river]

If anyone knows what Slaver Powder is, and why having it is insane, you're more prepared than my DM was back in 3.5 😄

[wet trail]

guess no ones excited lol

[old sluice]

Same thing! Before level 3, the cleric may be dedicated to a divinity but has yet to receive the power. Of course they want to be a cleric of Selune, but at level 2, they have finally become a proper vessel for power and may yet change their mind and turn towards another god

The level 2 warlock certainly has a contact with a fiend who expects to make a pact, but what if in the last moment, they meet a fey that offers them another deal?

[inner silo]

Then you have to tell the players they have to choose the subclass they'll go for from level 1

[fossil hollow]

well, they get the power, not the specific employee benefits

[old sluice]

Of course not, that's literally the opposite of what I'm proposing.

[fossil hollow]

if its new players, you dont bother with it until level 3

[limber trail]

I've played with plenty of sorcerers, warlocks, clerics, and more who've all played level 1 and 2 knowing what they'll take at level 3 and played accordingly, and I think if there's a newer player that's a practice a DM can easily tell them about, plus it's just not that unintuitive

[inner silo]

Turning to another god last second just doesn't make any sense imo

[fossil hollow]

circumstances within a campaign can invoke a change of faith or focus

[old sluice]

Nothing makes sense until the context and the story make it make sense.

[still plover]

It can, it just needs more explanation.

[old sluice]

Right now we have no story, so it doesn't make sense.

[inner silo]

I see

[knotty pasture]

I mean if you have a certain Half Elf in a certain video game jump ship across three gods, a Cleric being indecisive will work out

[limber trail]

plenty of reasons to change your path last minute

[old sluice]

But I can imagine a hundred different stories of someone turning to another faith

[lyric idol]

Idk if its how it actually works but to me clerics domains usually are influenced by their patron. Loki would give the Trickery domain, Ares would be the War domain cleric, etc. And clerics devote their lives to their patron, so again they should have their patron and subclass available at level 1.

[old sluice]

They are influenced by their patron. At level 3.

[lyric idol]

Which is how it worked in 2014.

[inner silo]

I just don't get why the god who gives you your power would humour that or why the new god would immediately give you their power without years of prior devotion

[still plover]

Picking up genie when nothing in your experience so far has involved them would seem like a weird twist. Sure we could explain it somehow, but it's best to have a narrative foundation for it.

[lyric idol]

And I think WOTC went the wrong direction by making all classes level 3, when all classes shouldve been brought to level 1.

[limber trail]

tons of possible reasons

[knotty pasture]

It could just be like a patron contract

[old sluice]

Your fighter had to learn to swing a sword before becoming a master, no? So consider the same for the cleric. That the first two levels are the training.

[knotty pasture]

Shar bestows her power on a former Selune Cleric right away so to strike Selune where it hurts

[limber trail]

also, your cleric domain =/= your deity. Gods can grant multiple domains.

could be same deity, different domain

[fossil hollow]

You also dont need to switch gods if you end up switching a domain

e.g., you can have a cleric who dedicates themself to the searing light of lathander (Light Domain), only for them to focus more on healing their allies within the first two levels, but due to the cleric eventually dedicates themself to the healing light of lathander (Life domain).

[wet trail]

thats just petty

[knotty pasture]

Shar is petty

[old sluice]

Shar is basically pettiness incarnate.

[fossil hollow]

like a core part of her personality

[wet trail]

when will these lovely sisters ever make up

[foggy river]

A cleric of Kelemvor could be a Peace cleric (peace of the grave), a Trickery cleric (a hunter of necromancers wwho just uses tricksy techniques), a War Cleric (SLAY ALL UNDEAD!), and more

[fossil hollow]

when the world ends

[inner silo]

Ig most gods would give you at least 2 domain options but likely not more then that

[old sluice]

Fun fact: At least one heretical faith in the realm believes they are actually the same person eternally at war with herself

[fossil hollow]

i really suggest looking at the fr wiki. gods can have a myriad of domains

[old sluice]

And therefore worships both.

[foggy river]

I disagree. You could find a way to make ALMOST any domain option work with ALMOST any deity.

[inner silo]

Last time i looked at it most gods didn't give more then 2 iirc

[fossil hollow]

look at more

bahamut has war, light, and order

[inner silo]

Ah, you include 2014 domains

[fossil hollow]

why would i not

[inner silo]

They're not in the 2024 version of the game

[fossil hollow]

you can still use them with 2024

[limber trail]

that's backwards compatability for ya

[knotty pasture]

When Shar finally rolls a nat 20 like 10 turns in a roll while Selune keeps rolling nat 1s, and Selune has to take it like a wimp when Shar says skill issue

[wet trail]

what are ohgma’s two domains? knowledge and knowledge 2?

[limber trail]

all 2014 content is generally allowed in 2024 unless it's been reprinted for 2024

[inner silo]

You can, they haven't been balanced and fully adapted for it yet though

[foggy river]

And that's only 3.5 - in 2014 and 2024 the domain is dependant on how the Cleric sees their relationship with their deity, not on what powers the Deity represent. Yes, most Clerics of Kelemvor will be Grave or Life Clerics, but you could be Light or Trickery or whatever.

[fossil hollow]

literally one of the main selling points they tried so hard to communicate for 2024

[fossil hollow]

as someone who literally has been running 2024 games since the release, this is utter nonsense

[inner silo]

Idk, my DM doesn't really allow 2014 content

[old sluice]

As someone who still plays 2014 but with weird hybridations with 2024, this is nonsense

[fossil hollow]

...

[glass granite]

Then how would you know if they’re not properly rebalanced if you haven’t done it?

[limber trail]

Agree - me personally, I see no reason to require a player of one particular deity's cleric to stick to the typical domains they grant, as long as they have a decent pitch for it

[lyric idol]

I'm sorry 😭 2014 still has some pretty good content. Somethings they have made worse in 2024.

[foggy river]

They explicitly say to use 2014 for anything not present yet in 2024, when asked about half-elves and half-orcs.

[knotty pasture]

This is kind of why the misconception of 2014 content being banned in 2024 tables continues

With DMs actually enforcing this house rule

[glass granite]

Btw I second what Praetor and Ti are saying

[fossil hollow]

tbf, phb is the only stuff you really need. expansion books are optional and extra

[inner silo]

It could be, sure

[fossil hollow]

...

[lyric idol]

Its weird because I thought WOTC was pretty clear 2014 and 2024 content was cross compatible. Thats why even in DNDBeyond you can mix n match.

[glass granite]

Alright Ti, Cracker ain’t stupid, just misinformed

[fossil hollow]

if they werent clear, they were pretty adamant/persistent

[knotty pasture]

Reading continues to be a difficult task for most ttrpg players

[inner silo]

Hate it

[glass granite]

Love it

[old sluice]

Honestly, I am not seeing that in the communities of other TTRPGs I practice

[limber trail]

the balance of 2014 and 2024 is not monumentally different

[knotty pasture]

And assumptions I suppose, people assume 2014 and 2024 is as compatible as 3.5e and 5e

[wet trail]

how r u reading this chat then?

[fossil hollow]

just because they hate it doesnt mean they cant do it

[glass granite]

I don’t think reading a conversation is really comparable to reading a ton of information

[fossil hollow]

i can hate working, but can still do it

[inner silo]

I jk. I do read and have skimmed through the 2024 phb. But I'm not that deep into dnd yet to know what the creators said about using 2014 content in 2024. I only know that most of the subclasses if not all have been changed from 2014 to 2024 suggesting to me most of 2014 stuff while compatible may be unbalanced in 2024

[glass granite]

At least as someone who’s worked with newbies in #dnd-newcomers , I’ve met a fair few folks who find it difficult to retain information or enjoy the game when they’re forced to sit down and read a lot of information that might be confusing or needs clarification.

[fossil hollow]

i can assure you, the only think that broke with the new changes is shepherd druid

[knotty pasture]

Also its partially bc of the amount of subjective info passed around as objective I suppose

[fossil hollow]

because the conjure spells got changed

thats the only subclass that got broken really.

and by broken i mean not work as intended

[inner silo]

I see

[fossil hollow]

kinda glad they arent clogging up the action economy now though

shepherd always looked like a nightmare to run

[knotty pasture]

I still remember a time where #character-discussion was anti multiclassing, even if the reality was that its just poor wording

But there's a good chunk of subjective opinions that disguises itself as objective fact

[fossil hollow]

we werent anti multiclassing

[glass granite]

We’re really only anti multiclass if the player doesn’t really know what they’re doing and don’t have all the information to make informed decisions

[lyric idol]

For newcomers that havent bought books yet DND is a cluster of accurate information, subjective information, and hallucinations jumbled into one giant tangled net.

[fossil hollow]

we highly reccomended not to do so without proper knowledge

[glass granite]

We don’t say multiclassing is bad, we say you should only do it if you know what you’re doing. Many newcomers I see multiclass because they don’t know the alternative, and end up weakening their character.

[fossil hollow]

basically, we're not anti fireworks, just know theres so many ways it can go wrong

[old sluice]

That's a good analogy, I'm stealing it

[limber trail]

Multiclassing is the kind of thing that can make your character actively worse if you've done it wrong

[fossil hollow]

with new years approaching, it seemed appropriate

[limber trail]

It requires a pretty good understanding of the rules and how they interact

[fossil hollow]

oh lord, i have 13 days til christmas

[lyric idol]

Heres the thing about multiclassing; I explain the risks and rewards of multiclassing and let my players go wild. If they end up wanting to change or redo, fine no big deal. We can keep cooking class and subclass combinations till the cows come home.

I dont discourage it either.

[glass granite]

I say “Multiclassing is like being a bartender. If you don’t know what you’re doing, it’ll taste like sh#%. But if you do, it can create many creative, fun and flavourful drinks (characters).”

[lyric idol]

The thing is, players should be allowed to be bad bartenders. They cant learn what suits their taste if they dont know what doesnt suit their taste. Because unlike actual bartending, they arent actually wasting any thing besides a bit of time.

[old sluice]

To be fair, what's the worst case scenario with a poorly made character?

That character dies. Problem solved.

[lyric idol]

Exactly.

[glass granite]

And I encourage them to try it out, but usually not for a first time character. Learn the styles of the basics first.

[old sluice]

Selection of the fittest I suppose

[glass granite]

Well, I don’t think a new player just getting into the game exactly appreciates dying immediately. It’s not a great first impression of the game.

But again, this is just my opinion and style of teaching newcomers, and I acknowledge it is fairly subjective

[foggy river]

One of my favorite characters is only a multiclass for story reasons. Level 1 wizard, absolute coward. Gets struck by lightning, switches to Wild Magic Sorcerer, goes nuts and becomes sort of a cross between Bugs Bunny, Sid Vicious of the Sex Pistols, and the Joker from the 1960's Batman (when he wasn't so much evil as Chaotic Neutral).

[noble basin]

Survival of the fittest or natural selection

[glass granite]

I’d go with the latter

[old sluice]

Oh yeah, I mixed two things

[lyric idol]

The thing is, I allow them too. I'll show them where they'll get to on each of a different classes based on a 6-6 split. Idc I'm here to DM for fun. If they get unhappy and wamma change its not gonna end the world.

[glass granite]

6-6 split?

[lyric idol]

Sorry been playing a new system. I mean 10-10 😂

[glass granite]

Ah I see lol

Like, if a player has a really cool concept that also works with a multiclass I know works, I’ll guide them through it and it’ll be great. But if they want to make a paladin monk because they want a holy warrior that punches stuff, I’ll try to either find an alternative with flavour or homebrew something, instead of only multiclass.

[lyric idol]

Thats fair.

[foggy river]

I wanted a Bard that punches stuff. I gave him the Sailor background and Tavern Brawler. 😄

[lyric idol]

Monk bard sounds like fun ngl

[glass granite]

I’d just tell them to play dance bard

[inner silo]

Is the 2014 necromancer transferable to 2024?

[lyric idol]

Yes

All 2014 is compatible with 2024 and vice versa.

[glass granite]

Not too familiar with necromancer, but I assume so

[knotty pasture]

The multiclass thing sounds contradictory in a way anyways, so you shouldn't multiclass until you know the game better, but by then you probably might not need to ask on #character-discussion

[inner silo]

Alrighty, thanks!

[glass granite]

I still go to #character-discussion for a lot of my characters (in fact, all but one)

[knotty pasture]

Good point

[glass granite]

That channel isn’t just for support, it’s to bounce off ideas and discuss what styles, choices or concepts might be beneficial for you

[frozen burrow]

Right

[glass granite]

Granted, I’m not all to experienced a player

Only around half a year, if that, of experience

[frozen burrow]

I worked on a concept with the DM, and my sheet didn't take too long... just ironing out backstory took a bit - but I'm ready for session coming up.

Shoutouts to esoteric warlock stuff, and having good trust with the GM as to feel comfortable with me not knowing a lot about your warlock patron / goal because it fits the character.

Though I'm coming from a more collaborative and improv play-style, and I'm excited to be surprised.

[glass granite]

Your GM being the one not knowing a lot about your character is…an interesting choice

[foggy river]

THIS. Trust between players and DM is essential to prevent your campaign from ending up in r/RPGHorrorStories. 😄

[glass granite]

Trust is good, but your DM is the one who should be knowing stuff, at least to my style

Having room to adapt and shape the patron is good, but hiding stuff from your DM is almost never a good idea

[frozen burrow]

To clarify; We have the concept, but I as a player don't know the actual patron except for the subclass mechanically.

She has certain memories or senses shifted or taken away over time / in the past as a warlock.

I don't know what their patron is and what they truly want, neither does my lady I'm playing, but the GM does.

[glass granite]

Ahhhhh oki that’s completely fine then

[warm kiln]

just put 2 and 2 together and realised why i havent been able to join some of these DnD community discords --
Due to living in the UK, if the discord is listed as 18+ i need to prove my ID and im not putting my details up for something like this --

[glass granite]

That’s fair

[foggy river]

Sounds like a superhero RPG campaign I was in - we didn't know all of our powers and had to discover them in game, and THEN find out WHY people were suddenly gaining super powers.

[frozen burrow]

True!

[frozen burrow]

Well, I think this is more horror coded?

I can give specifics - if you like - but I'd probably DM you as to avoid spoilers for when session stuff starts?

No pressure, of course

[frozen burrow]

Oh, that's not ideal, I'm sorry

[foggy river]

Not needed, just idle memories spawned from 30 years ago. 😄

[frozen burrow]

Oh okay, fair!

[warm kiln]

no need to apologise lol
You didnt put these dumb rules in place, it was the UK government

[frozen burrow]

Nice to meet you, though, and hope you're well

[warm kiln]

👋 im completely new to DnD 😄

Never played it and only watched a few brief videos on it :3

[glass granite]

Hi completely new to DnD, I’m Nugget

[foggy river]

I'm the opposite, been playing since 1981. 😄

[glass granite]

Hello, the opposite, I’m Nugget! Been playing for two years starting early Jan

[foggy river]

And thanks to one-off games at cons, I have played literally every edition of D&D, including the original White Box set for Chainmail. 😄

[warm kiln]

I have been asked to DM for so many people but I have no knowledge of the game at all, So here I am 😄

[frozen burrow]

Fair, I've been doing rpg stuff for 10 years, but mostly have done indie RPGs for the past 7 years - and am trying D&D after a while away.

That, and transitioning is a whole thing too that impacted how I engage with rpg things.

[hollow stone]

it will be an intense and confusing phase of learning beyond the video speak - but you will learn.

[warm kiln]

I can roll with the punches ^^ I just need to learn mechanics 🙂

[pallid haven]

how do you see your previous discussions?

[foggy river]

Honestly, I'd say it's more important to learn where given rules are than memorize the rules. After a period of time, you'll eventually not need to reference the books as much (except for critters and such).

[covert root]

Well, if you ever need a friend to ask, I’m happy to oblige. More DMs are great!

[foggy river]

And you can just use page tabs for that

[hollow stone]

i mean i guess you can search the discord for messages you sent? the little magnifying glass symbol

[warm kiln]

Thank you 🙂 i will keep it in mind 😄

[pallid haven]

you mean the search bar at the top?

[hollow stone]

yea, it has a magnifying glass

[idle oar]

Can even use the from: to specify a specific user in your search

[warm kiln]

When I started GTA RP i just played the amnesia card because I had no idea of any of the locations or anything in the game lol
So I can do the same for DnD and hope for the best :3

[hot gate]

I noticed that I have the most fun when the setting is somewhat unknown to me, because it feels like I'm discovering lots of things all the time.

[foggy river]

As a veteran player, my previous campaign I played in took place in the southern regions of the world of Greyhawk. I lost count of how many times I had to bite my tongue because I knew the world better than my character did, or when the DM asked me specific questions about the world that gave me huge hints about what may be to come - and I had to play as if I had no idea.

So for me, I tend to prefer original or lesser known settings, so that I'm not sitting on my hands to keep from metagaming.

[hot gate]

Yeah. And when such a player isn't able to sit on their hands it can actually hurt the enjoyment of others.

I've got such a player and though he tries, meta information is occasionally issuing forth. The running joke is that at such a time his characters mouth opens and the player climbs out to proclaim that information.

[foggy river]

I mean, when the DM asked me how "Iuz" was pronounced, well, it was hard to keep a straight face.

[covert root]

Yeah, that can work on occasion. I’m sure it’d be reasonable while settling into a setting, though some tables prefer you have a certain bottom line of knowledge on a setting.

[still plover]

I find it useful to agree that although we might be playing in a particular setting, this is our game and specifics may vary.

[hot gate]

That's a good disclaimer, yeah.

I've had players prematurely foreclose some RP encounters because they presupposed something about the setting.

[pallid haven]

if i'm creating a character sheet, is it ok if i use a note book instead of a Pre-made template?

[hot gate]

As long as you can get to the info you need, sure!

[pallid haven]

even sketch books?

[hot gate]

Though perhaps also check with your DM, as they might want to look at your sheet.

[hot gate]

One of my players has their sheet in their notebook

[glad arch]

As long as you have all the info you need anything works

[hollow stone]

yea, you can also download a blank sheet image online and then edit it with any image editing software

[hot gate]

Might not even need image editing software, as the official sheet is form-fillable:
https://media.dndbeyond.com/compendium-images/br/ph/character-sheet.pdf

[foggy river]

Anything can be used as a character sheet as long as both you and the DM can see the needed info

And you can make changes as you level up

[pallid haven]

well might used a pencil instead of pen then

[hollow stone]

def use a pencil, yea

[foggy river]

Or use a tablet with a fillable sheet. 😄

[hollow stone]

forgot about tablet (the electronic) for a few frames and thought you were talking about tablets (stone) and was about to say how that's worse 😭

[pallid haven]

what dice should i use if i don't have a psionic Dice?

[glass granite]

Psionic dies are d6,d8,d10 and d12, no?

[pallid haven]

yeah?

[glass granite]

You don’t have those dice?

If not, buy them or use online dice

[pallid haven]

ah ok

[hollow stone]

yea google has a dice robot but they also have an RNG robot that i prefer bc you can just input a range

you can just google "RNG" and it appears

[granite cradle]

Getting my uncle and his wife to play dnd for the first time and get to teach them all about it

Any tips?

[glass granite]

Get them to read the first few chapters of the Free Basic Rules, and go through it with them, and remember that they don’t need to know ALL the rules, just the basics

Free basic D&D rules: https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/dnd/free-rules

[hidden spindle]

Hi @glass granite 👋

[glass granite]

Hallo!

[hidden spindle]

I figured this channel would be more appropriate for conversation than the rules channel

[glass granite]

Btw, I have smt I’d like to ask you in #non-dnd-topics

[hidden spindle]

Let's go

[magic pawn]

Maybe it is just me, but shouldn't there be an "anti-artificer", a sabotage expert, soneone in the heat of battle who can simply remove the magic properties from weapons and gear

[knotty pasture]

What about monsters that don't use weapons or gear like dragons

[eager marsh]

So...another artificer

[knotty pasture]

The situation described sounds as situational as Hold Person which idk is enough depth to be a subclass

[magic pawn]

No, like a full-fledged artificer, that knows all the infusions, but, defuses them.

"That is a nice +2 vorpal sword...'t'would be a shame if, yoink it wasn't"

[tribal isle]

Better chances finding the Arc of the Covenant than a Sci-Fi campaign.

[limpid zenith]

well dnd wasn't really made for sci fi so it's not easy to translate all of it into sci fi

there's other TTRPGs for that tho

[knotty pasture]

Starfinder

[tribal isle]

I’ve been told it’s difficult to translate some of the aliens I’d love to play into D&D.

[stuck shuttle]

It’s easier to find analogues, generally

A 1:1 translation is often what’s difficult to achieve

[magic pawn]

• yoink - to remove magical properties from armor or weapons

[tribal isle]

Be down to find some for a few aliens I’d wanna play sometime down the line.

[humble cairn]

Would you be interested in playing some more typical character types? Standard D&D is also fun. Have you tried it already?

[tribal isle]

Uhhhhh no actually. I guess those aliens and such are more inspiration?

[humble cairn]

You haven't tried it?

[humble cairn]

If you want, we can go over to #character-discussion and see if we can put together a character based on your inspirations.

[tribal isle]

Ja.

[tribal isle]

Ye!

[clear lark]

Just chuckling at the poster who wrote, "My uncle and his wife". Your aunt?

[humble cairn]

D&D is flexible, but it really isn't a great game to run everything, so sometimes character ideas are just not a good fit for D&D. It also has some standard ideas kind of bulit into the game world already that can be quite fun, and I think people should try out the game as it was written, just so they know the baseline.

[humble cairn]

Some cultures refer to relations and differentiate between blood related or married in.

[tribal isle]

Like what?

[limber trail]

Plenty of folks draw different lines with regards to what they consider family, especially roles like aunt and uncle are flexible.

[humble cairn]

Like your typical Dwarven Fighter who is proud of their clan and their crafts, for example.

In my family the word we call my aunt who is married into the family is not the same word we call an aunt who is blood related.

[humble cairn]

And technically the word for an aunt on my dad's side is also different from the word for an aunt on my mom's side.

[eager marsh]

Language is funky

[inner silo]

is building a necromancer around animate dead a bad idea? And are there any other necromancer builds that arent outright bad?

[burnt valley]

dont use UA Necromancer

[tribal isle]

Mm. Mmhmm. I’ve a few Ben 10 aliens Whomst I’ll rattle off.

[inner silo]

neither of them?

[humble cairn]

Ok but like .. no interest in playing in a typical D&D setting with a character from there?

[burnt valley]

yea, use the 2014 one, its much better

[inner silo]

i see

[burnt valley]

You get one more skeleton and all of your created undead gains more max hp and adds proficiency bonus to their damage rolls

Also the Lvl 10 feature is also pretty good

(Create Magen no longer has any downsides)

[wild yarrow]

Guys I'm starting a DND club at my school!

[inner silo]

the new unearthed arcana necromancer lets you treat animate dead as 1 level higher

also it seems to just give you way way more abilities then 14

[tribal isle]

The interest is there.

[inner silo]

have you seen the 2025 arcane update UA?

[magic pawn]

In English we just say uncle or aunt, but there is a difference.

Let's pretend my father has a brother who is married, and a sister...

My aunt is my father's sister.
That is a different relationship than "my father's brother's wife" or spouse of my uncle

[burnt valley]

Yeah, nothing is said about animate dead

[eager marsh]

I have mixed opinions of the UA Necromancer but I made the mistake of never getting g around to sending feedback on it

[inner silo]

there is a new one that returned from summon undead to animate dead

[burnt valley]

Lemme go search for that one

[pliant sapphire]

Literally lvl 6 feature is about animate dead

[burnt valley]

Nvm nvm found it

[inner silo]

what do you think of it?

[limpid zenith]

the biggest problem with necromancer isn't really the lack of power (which is a problem) it's just that it doesn't fulfil the necromancer character fantasy and that makes it so much less fulfilling to play

[clear lark]

In- laws

[inner silo]

what is the necromancer fantasy to you?

[limpid zenith]

I'm not fully speaking from personal experience here but this is the biggest complaint most players I've seen have about the subclass/niche

i had the same problem with monk tho

[eager marsh]

2014 Necromancer and the most recent UA Necromancer lean into the undead minion control fantasy just fine. The older UA was the one failing it

Also 2024 monk feels great to play

[magic pawn]

I guess you could simplify:
Father's brother's wife to Father's sister-in-law, but that feels very impersonal

[humble cairn]

Are you suggesting that an uncle's wife should be called an "aunt in law" in English?

[inner silo]

And that tbh sounds fun if you can manage your horde

[burnt valley]

Hmm can't say much here but its def an upgrade from the older UA

[inner silo]

Alrighty! Do you think replacing the new grim harvest with the original one would be a significant improvement?

[eager marsh]

I love playing Pokémon with my undead I just wish they’d give a hard defined rule on what I can equip them with without asking the DM to make it up

[pliant sapphire]

Yes. Previous UA was more like a "Death cleric" wizard

[inner silo]

That would be quite nice

[burnt valley]

True

[eager marsh]

Like can I manage my platoon without proper proficiencies? Yes. But it’s less interesting and limits my options

[burnt valley]

Yeah 2014 Grim Harvest is better
3x3 (2014) vs 3+4 (UA)

It gets better the more you upcast it

[inner silo]

Alrighty

Btw is grabbing summon undead along with animate dead a decent idea?

[eager marsh]

You can in fact use both at once yes

Summon undead has a pretty decent imitation ghoul effect if it triggers

[inner silo]

Would it be a bad idea or would it be aight?

[eager marsh]

If you’re leaning into the minion heavy side and you don’t take an hour per turn it’s perfectly fine and gives you more variety than just skeletons and zombies for most of your levels

[inner silo]

Alrighty, great!

@eager marsh thanks for the help!

[eager marsh]

If you can find other ways to impose poisoned condition it can make the summon undead much better thanks to its paralyze attacks

[burnt valley]

Sylune's Viper (No save poisoned)

[eager marsh]

Nah that poison already incapacitates so it just plain invalidates the summon undead paralyze on its own. Also that spell is cool but you can very easily lose it early

Playing a Necromancer is funny in that all the concentration spells that let you use your Bonus Action for value are bad because your BA is always full up for commanding your minions (I’d have liked the subclass to free up the action to control them ideally)

But also if you are sure you aren’t fighting poison immune enemies then casting aoe poison spells is free since you don’t damage your minions

[inner silo]

Perhaps replace one of their features that they get and in place get that? Or an addition to something like their level 10 feature

[burnt valley]

If only Summon Undead has its own initiative instead, would've been awesome lol

[eager marsh]

Well the feedback on UA is already closed

[inner silo]

It doesn't?

[eager marsh]

That doesn’t change how it interacts with Viper

[burnt valley]

Ah frick

[burnt valley]

It shares your initiative with it

[eager marsh]

The summoned ghoul-like stat block needs a poisoned target. If its claw hits it can paralyze the victim

[inner silo]

Ah. Is that bad though?

[eager marsh]

So if you have things that can just impose the condition before hand (the ghoul can do it to anything adjacent to it at the start of turn) it helps

It sharing initiative isn’t bad at all no.

[limber trail]

most summoned creatures use your initiative but act directly after you

[inner silo]

Should building your necromancer around poison damage be thoroughly discussed with your dm before implementation since poison immunity is so common?

[burnt valley]

Nah

[eager marsh]

You only need like 1-2 low level spells for poison use really to not handicap yourself

I was calling it a perk not a build focus. Poison damage aoe aren’t usually good

[limber trail]

I would generally encourage not building for specific damage types as a caster. Your advantage is your versatility, restricting yourself to one type will lock you out of opportunities you could otherwise have.

[inner silo]

So bad idea?

[inner silo]

Alrighty

[eager marsh]

There aren’t enough options for you to decently lean hard on it

It’s a side tool that has synergy. Not a main weapon

[inner silo]

What about a poison cold and necrotic split?

[limber trail]

Poison is indeed one of the most commonly resisted damage types and to be honest, a player's brute force wish to play a poison build isn't gonna convince a lot of DMs to remove immunities

[limber trail]

Getting better, to be honest, you're a wizard, take a range of spells

You can make so many spells fit a necromancer

[eager marsh]

Genuinely just take spells that work locking in your elements can be an issue

[burnt valley]

No no not entirely, that's one of the most resisted damage types

[limber trail]

Fireball - green flames ripped from the palace of the underworld swirl in your hand before you shoot forth a swirling ball of fire that impacts and explodes, shrieking like ghouls

rinse and repeat for any other spells you want

[limpid zenith]

Very important to remember

[inner silo]

Making spells skulls would also be pretty cool i think, especially since I'll have to carry around a skull for summon undead already

[limpid zenith]

flavour is free.

[limber trail]

do not shoot yourself in the foot to play a character with a limp, so to speak

[inner silo]

Alrighty. Thanks a lot for the help!

[burnt valley]

Cemeteries and battlefields for animate dead

[limber trail]

very situational

plenty of campaigns never see a cemetary in their runtime

[burnt valley]

does a bag of skeletons have a specific price tag or is it another DM fiat?

[inner silo]

I'll need to get some clothes to mask my undead as just weird dudes

So we're let into town

[limber trail]

There are a lot of DM Fiats there. The first one being, acquiring skeletons. Not a lot of folks will sell dead bodies to you, even less legally, and the ones who do so illegally will likely have a lot of scrutiny

there's no specific price on it

[inner silo]

Make the folks who sell them the dead bodies, it's immoral to sell dead people

[limber trail]

wdym?

[burnt valley]

That sounds annoying to deal with, would dungeons be a more reliable alternative?

[inner silo]

Turn the people who illegally sell dead bodies into dead bodies and add them to your army

[limber trail]

I would say so. It truly depends on the genre of game you’re playing

[burnt valley]

Dammit

[limber trail]

The shared fantasy of the entire table and the story you all want to tell is what will shape how easy or hard these challenges are

[humble cairn]

Remember that Animate Dead doesn't need the pile of bones to be complete or humanoid.

[inner silo]

Tbh the wizard has high intelligence so they'd probably know where to find dead bodies in the world, just ask your dm

[humble cairn]

The ethical necromancer saves their chicken bones from dinner or buys beef bones from the butcher.

[limber trail]

Knowing where to find them isn’t the same as being able to navigate that world to get access to them

[humble cairn]

The corpse for zombie production does need to be humanoid, though.

[inner silo]

True

[limpid zenith]

watch my boy make up everything for his perfect necromancer and the dm just hits em with "yo btw, necromancy is outlawed, no one likes you and if you do anything you'll be imprisoned."

[burnt valley]

Just choose skeletons instead of zombies

[burnt valley]

An unethical one can do both

[hidden spindle]

Animate Dead's Zombies would need to be a Humanoid corpse

[humble cairn]

Right

[hidden spindle]

But Nystul can make any other corpses Humanoid

[burnt valley]

lmao

[hidden spindle]

Then you'll just need the size right

[still plover]

Another one for "wait until Session Zero to make characters," I feel.

[hidden spindle]

And with the right Spells, make any corpse that is not Huge or Gargantuan into a Zombie!

[humble cairn]

It would still have the Zombie stats, of course.

[hidden spindle]

Regrettably, that's correct.

But hey, maybe body type is retained

Bipedal, equine, etc

-# Unless a Giant Rat with Nystul's Spell spawns a Humanoid-shaped Zombie

[naive dirge]

Sup yall

[frail epoch]

Hey 👋

[hollow stone]

does it have to be from a humanoid or be humanoid? can i make a humanoid from turtle parts and animate that?

[stuck delta]

Hey dooooodes and ladies. Has anyone read or ran the 2nd edition module Rod of Seven Parts by any chance?

[valid geyser]

I have not, but I've heard neat things. I also know the rod has some significance as a maguffin in vecna eve of ruin

[stuck delta]

Indeed. It does come up in Vecna (though I havent read that module yet) 🙂

[naive dirge]

What class would a FF Red mage be?

in 5e

[turbid vessel]

Bard, id reckon

Since their whole thing is kinda being a jack of all trades

[naive dirge]

are bards built for sword combat tho?

[lyric viper]

Sword bards are ye!

[naive dirge]

in FF magic is seperated by black or white spells, with white mages being the healing/buff type, and black mages being the damage/debuff enemy type. Red mages can do both white and black magic (but not the highest level spells of either side). They also can be decent sword fighters

[naive dirge]

ahh okay, i didn't know if there was a subset of fighter that allows for more magic

[lyric viper]

Bards can also do both divine (healing) and arcane magic

Seeing as the earliest ff was based on DD, that might be intentional.

[naive dirge]

ive heard someone say eldritch knight before but idk how to play that 😆

[umbral girder]

It’s a subclass for fighters. Basically for every 3 levels of fighter you get the spell casting of 1 level of wizard

[naive dirge]

Sounds fun to play, have you ever run one?

[umbral girder]

Nah. Mainly because the players I have and I don’t care to make all that magical fighters

The vibe of a dude who is that skilled in fighting he does not need magic is way cooler.

Like Deathstroke from DC comics

[naive dirge]

Also whats the lore behind the name "eldritch", whats its mean

[umbral girder]

If I wanted to a play a warrior with a lot of useful magic and skills I would just play a Ranger

[umbral girder]

Eldritch just means “Weird or magical”

[naive dirge]

Ohh gotcha

[naive dirge]

is there any advantage to eldritch fighter over bard/ranger?

[umbral girder]

Way better damage and health. And you get more stat increases and/or Feats than every other class in the game

Also it uses the Wizard spell list which is the best spell list in the game

[valid geyser]

you have all the good things about being a fighter. Lots of attacks, good defense, etc. But the downside is your spell progression is pretty slow

[umbral girder]

Bard is more of a support with a lot of skills while Ranger is more of a generalist for skills, magic, and combat.

Fighter is much more specialized towards combat

[naive dirge]

lowkey sounds like a fun class i'd play

[umbral girder]

Also fighters are trained in Every weapon and armor in the game too

So you find a magical weapon, shield, or armor most times your fighter can easily use it in a fight

Ranger is more focused on exploration and Bard is leaning more on social as well if using the pillars of play

[still plover]

Bards also get a nice bucket of skills. Useful in many situations.

[naive dirge]

so eldritch fighter has a slow magic progression but doesn't have any drawbacks in the standard fighter development?

like you'd obviously wanna put some points into intelligence if you ran it, but it doesn't INHERINTLY have weaker melee capabilities?

[valid geyser]

not neccessarily, you would just have to balance your attacking stat, constitution, and intelligence

[naive dirge]

so it sounds like a better fighter

[umbral girder]

Ehhh

[hollow stone]

the only downside to doing EK is that you don't get what the other Fighters get

[knotty basin]

I mean, the cost is that you don’t get to pick another subclass

[umbral girder]

In terms of combat abilities its has difficulty comparing to other fighters

[hollow stone]

like Battlemaster's Manuevers which are basically martial spells

[snow zephyr]

Nah, just take the battle master feat

[umbral girder]

You need to be specific with your spells and also their spells are long rest recharge while other fighters get theirs back on a Short rest which is more common.

Unless you are Champion then you always have your subclass features

[crimson gulch]

champions kick ass

[valid geyser]

and most fighters just have things that are on all the time/have quick recharge, so not having to worry about spell slots

[umbral girder]

Yeah it loses out some of Being a Fighter to get spellcasting

[snow zephyr]

Doesn't pretty much every class except barbarian get spellcasting access of some kind?

[inner silo]

How to choose the class to play when you have multiple options you really want to try?

[crimson gulch]

roll for it

[hollow stone]

do Monks get to cast spells?

[inner silo]

Alrighty

[crimson gulch]

a few of their subclasses get some spells

[valid geyser]

for me it depends on what others are playing

[umbral girder]

Very little

[valid geyser]

some barb subclasses get rituals

[inner silo]

We have a party of 3 martials and three casters, I'm one of the casters

[snow zephyr]

I think so, it's called path of the elements or something like that

[limber trail]

I would say they do better at different things. An EK fighter is generally mostly a fighter, but every now and then they can supplement that fighting with a spell. Bards, and to a lesser extent rangers, generally expect to be using those spells a lot more

[inner silo]

But the only casters i want to play are the necromancer and the artificer which my dm doesn't seem to be the most found of

[naive dirge]

whats the social consensus on EK, are they annoying to have in ur party or are they valuable?

[limber trail]

Monks don't get the spellcasting feature. Some subclasses let you use focus points to cast a very limited list of spells.

[snow zephyr]

Bards should get more rogue stuff

[valid geyser]

i think rogues should keep their own unique stuff

[umbral girder]

They are ok to have at a table

[snow zephyr]

Bards make a good 8th party member

[umbral girder]

They are fine to have around.

[limber trail]

there's a very small list of subclasses that are annoying. EKs are fine, solid, If you're interested I'd definitely recommend playing one. By no means will you be detracting from the table

[naive dirge]

What about duel wielding scimitar rogue w/ long hair and brooding personality, maybe a large cat companian? /s

[limber trail]

Large cat companion sounds like a beastmaster ranger more than a rogue

[umbral girder]

So a recreation of DnD’s novel characters?
I guess it’s a matter of the group and how they differentiate themselves from Drizzt.

[knotty pasture]

Higher skill cap than most other Fighter subclasses but v good when mastered

A subclass is when a class specializes into a certain area, the only "cost" to EK is not picking other subclasses

[snow agate]

Why would I be annoyed

[woven flint]

Why would they be annoying? 🤔

I don't think any class or subclass would be annoying to have at a table unless the PLAYER themselves are annoying

[snow agate]

Trueing

[woven flint]

Like Knome /joking

[limber trail]

There are a small few amount of subclasses that I think can potentially be misused to the detriment of the party

Eldritch knight is not one of them

[umbral girder]

The Devil sight + darkness build is probably one of them

[woven flint]

I mean..

Maybe Wild Magic Sorcerer if you get a bad effect on yourself the party is pretty much down a person

[limber trail]

The exact one I was thinking of is Shadow Monk

Speaking of from experience because I've played alongside a shadow monk who, early on, used darkness very offensively in situations that made the game harder for everyone

[lyric idol]

Idk why DMs seem to dislike artificers. And Eberron in general.

[umbral girder]

Also artificer is just rather meh of a class

I’ve played nearly every subclass (except cartographer) and it’s rough

[limber trail]

While I don't by any means dislike artificers, I do understand that a lot of DMs' dislike of them stems from kinda how artificer players tend to get very... "creative" with their class abilities and try to do some things that are out of scope with their abilities, such as making cars or nukes or whatever.

[snow agate]

I’m gonna judge twilight cleric because I don’t think twilight gods have a lot of flavor and the whole reason you’re picking it is because the channel divinity is op

[inner silo]

My dm said they played with an artificer and the artificer seemed to constantly underperform and their abilities had to be made up for with a magic item mecha crow

[umbral girder]

Also yeah artificer isn’t the technology class, it is the Magic Item class too

[atomic kayak]

for the former, it usually comes from a misunderstanding of what the class is/does

[woven flint]

Artificer is even more "Meh" now, because they took away its whole shtick of being the magic item master

[snow agate]

Because eberron is more steampunk than medieval fantasy

[umbral girder]

Yeah that’s my experience with them

The only subclass I found remotely fun to play was the Alchemist

[lyric idol]

Darkness in general is very niche. It works well if you have either Safe Spell metamagic or an Evocation wizard. Gloom stalker/shadow monk + Darkness + Safe Spell + Cloud of Daggers or another AoE spell.

[crimson gulch]

i feel like they did not actualy remove their mastery of magic items, that is still very much intact

[lyric idol]

I like mixing steampunk and medieval fantasy.

[inner silo]

That's the one i want to try. Wild magic inserted a love for random effects in me

[snow agate]

You should go read 24 shadow monk

[woven flint]

The removed the fact that they could use pretty much any magic item, which, was, eventually, the classes entire shtick.

[limber trail]

Mhm. I usually find the "more annoying" artificers out there tend to try use the class as a way to break the world rather than add to it. Which is a shame, because I do really like artificers and what they can bring to the world.

[lyric idol]

They made shadow monk 24? I do. Which book is it

[snow agate]

That’s great! Many DMs don’t, so they don’t like eberron. I was explaining

[snow agate]

Phb24

[umbral girder]

darkness is not a saving throw spell so neither of these work with it.

[crimson gulch]

that was one feature, they can still attune to so many more magic items than anyone, create them and consume them as a power source

[inner silo]

I'm considering artificer, necromancer and monk

[lyric idol]

Sorry I wasnt meaning to imply I thought that was your opinion

[snow agate]

Think about what flavor you want to play with since they’re very different flavors

[umbral girder]

Well it’s only the free potions that are random

[umbral girder]

Nah it looks to be a lot better than it was before.

[inner silo]

More then most subclasses

[limber trail]

Neither the Careful Spell metamagic nor Scult Spells affect Darkness.

ah nealen got to it alr

[lyric idol]

No, but a shadow monk forcing enemies to stay in the darkness while casters just hit them with AoE spells while keeping the monk safe has been my best experience with it. Dont need to see, dont need to aim.

[umbral girder]

Doesn’t need half baked features to make it good to play

[inner silo]

I like the flavour of eich of them tbh, so i asked the dm which they think would fit best into their world

[limber trail]

what is a monk doing to stop enemies from leaving the darkness?

[atomic kayak]

its not steampunk

[inner silo]

Can't they do a lot of push and prone?

[woven flint]

Yeahhhh...
I still think it was an overall nerf to the class.
Artificer doesn't FEEL better to play, then they oversimplified it, made it rely on flash of genuis and like, breaking their magic items for even more things.
It might LOOK better, but I think it's messy.

[snow agate]

It’s literally the setting with mecha artificers and warforged

[lyric idol]

Usually having darkness focused on a piece of their own equipment so darkness moves with the monk.

[atomic kayak]

incidentally, its the same for eberron

[umbral girder]

Its ignore magic item requirement was likely almost its worst feature in 2014.