dnd-discussion

[civic notch]

Yeah, the "strike and do something else" at-will model kind of went by the wayside. Which is a bummer, I liked that part of the design

[meager fractal]

i'm in the mood for some 4e actually

[gaunt roost]

the entire point of warlord was that you tell people to beat people up, and that works in a static 4e tabletop setting of "basic attack deals 1d8+5" for everyone, but in a setting where people can do crazy stuff with an attack, yeah....

I mean order clerics and old GWM goes brrrr

[snow agate]

i actually dont really think thats the reason its removed, i think its removed because the current meta doesnt like the idea of a party leader or making other characters do stuff, which such a class can end up feeling like

[gaunt roost]

fair. Order cleric does give lots of bonus attacks and can provide some similiar buffs to warlord though. Bless people and with that bless make them hit more people

[civic notch]

Totally. 4e was purely a co-op squad game and it was designed as such

[snow agate]

yeah they also reintroduced it into pf2e

its called commander

[gaunt roost]

they just removed a lot of the (sometimes overdone) streamlining of 4e where everyones basic damage was 1d8+mod

so its a lot more volatile now, order clerics letting rogues do extra sneak attacks, making GWM strike for tons of damage, etc makes it a lot harder to balance per se, and I believe that is an issue they face for 5e in general?

[civic notch]

I don't think it was even sometimes overdone. I think it was often overdone. High balance at the cost of ability same-ness

[gaunt roost]

yeahhhh

[snow agate]

i think theres a similar problem with pf2e rn too, a lot of the classes fall into a specific role balance-wise, so combat and encounters feel a lot more game-ified than feeling like what makes sense as possible in a high fantasy situation

[gaunt roost]

which was the reason the easiest way to make high level mobs was to just give them huge amounts of HP (1000+ even), so the challenge wasnt really "can you hit it" but "Can you keep interest in a 6 hour combat until you whittled that thing down"

[scenic zinc]

Saying 4e was too homogenous when 5e exists and is the most popular version to date is funny.

[snow agate]

yeah thats never fun, i really like when monsters have very specific strengths and weaknesses so the fight can either be overwhelming or destroyed in a couple rounds

[lean wigeon]

i feel that's intentional, for better or worse, because a big part of pf2e's appeal is that it's a tactical combat system

[snow agate]

it is absolutely intentional, i just like the "vibe" of 5e and pf1e more due to how creature interactions work

[valid geyser]

Yeah pf2 is a game where a wizard can suplex a bear because their level is a higher number
It’s very much a gamey gsme

[civic notch]

Not entirely sure what you mean by that, 4e is more homogeneous in design than 5e.

[scenic zinc]

It very much isn't. 5e is significantly more streamlined because of the complaints they got about 4e.

[snow agate]

i guess the way to describe it is "actually balancing things" vs "if everyones unbalanced, nobody is"

i like the latter

[valid geyser]

Yeah playing pathfinder 1e does excite me with the options not caring a lot about strict balance

[civic notch]

Imo streamlining ≠ homogeneity

[stoic obsidian]

I keep feeling the temptation of making a ranger monk

[valid geyser]

Like balance is good of course but it is going to restrict you

[meager fractal]

The monster design in 4e was sick

[lean wigeon]

pf2e fell off for me personally in favor of more narrative systems where i can just do whatever the hell i want without needing to worry about "balance" thanks to procedures in place

[snow agate]

yeah like for example theres a paladin build option im considering where you can blow 10 lay on hands uses and take a temp negative level to just straight up cast raise dead for free

[fossil hollow]

i wish they kept Monster Roles too

[snow agate]

is it actually mechanically optimal? no. is it really cool and nichely powerful? absolutely

[civic notch]

I use 4e Minion style monsters all the time in 5e.

[valid geyser]

I think pf1 does get me in that it can’t be simple about anything. They solved the martial caster balance in that martial characters are as complex as casters just by how much of a chore it is for weapons

The party I’m in had a monk who realized he can’t use staves at all, and a fighter who realized she can’t dual wield katanas for her giant trox samurai

[snow agate]

i think foundry as a VTT made pf1 a lot more bearable to play due to automating the numbers and conditions

[scenic zinc]

I'm not sure how to respond to this.

In game design terms, a system that's more streamlined is by definition more homogeneous.

Game elements are combined, mechanics are grouped, and the system as a whole becomes more simplified. It becomes homogeneous.

And the '24 update just did more of that.

[valid geyser]

I realized I do like characters that have less stuff written down what they can do. Maybe it’s a sign I might wanna try narrative games but I’ve had the most fun Ive had in a while on 5e with a thief that’s just vaguely good at dex stuff

[meager fractal]

Is oath of genies paladin good? I saw a post on reddit where a DM was raging about it.

[lean wigeon]

Fate fixes this

[stoic obsidian]

You talking to me?

[valid geyser]

It’s entirely possible. I bought fate core from half price books

[valid geyser]

No, just clarifying my previous msg

[snow agate]

i like either high crunch or no crunch games the most tbh. pf1 to me is really cool because of how much you can build a character the way you want and how to have them engage in the world, but ive also been really liking fabula ultima because its extremely simple and easy to logistic

[stoic obsidian]

Ah okay

[civic notch]

Yes, but in 5e a rogue functions very, very different from a 5e ranger Or a fighter from a paladin. In 4e, many of these characters were functionally very, very similar as long as they shared the same party role. With similar damage, similar movement abilities, similar healing output, similar everything.

I guess I'm trying to say there's more niche disparity/distinction in 5e (than in 4e)

[snow agate]

this is valid

[hot marlin]

This is true but compare to other games. In Shadowrun, for example, just about every build has to deal with entirely different rules. Here the core remains the same for everyone

[snow agate]

i think thats a good thing

[lean wigeon]

yeah there's generally a greater distinction between roles

with that said, they're not all the same. Swordmages (that's me :3c) and Fighters are both Defenders but the way they do their schtick is fundamentally different

[valid geyser]

Yeah I definitely think the fundamental difference is that the game seems less interested in challenging the PCs and more giving them a world to explore/a story to tell

[snow agate]

yeah

[civic notch]

Of course. 3.x had a bit of that going on as well. Everything is relative.

[valid geyser]

That’s what I liked about OSR games. They were more about a world than the people who lived in it

[lean wigeon]

i also kinda wanna try Burning Wheel for high crunch, but im not entirely a fan of it being a low fantasy game

[snow agate]

for me the most exciting thing is overcoming difficult challenges because that gives that feeling of "victory", so i like either end of it, as long as its something you as a player actually get to work towards

[lean wigeon]

i do wanna try out Chuubo's tho

[snow agate]

my least favorite thing is when victory is expected to the point you dont really have to try, or out of your hands

[cunning knoll]

Hi

[valid geyser]

Yeah I realize I like being the underdog. I definitely prefer the math not being in my favor. I had a combat last night where my rogue was blinded, unarmed, unarmored, and still charging at yuan ti. Being on the back foot makes me feel like a badass

[scenic zinc]

This is primarily because 5e shifted away from mechanically relying on such roles.

Tanking, DPS, healer, etc - those typical roles do not truly exist in 5e. You can kind of build toward one, but they're not inherent to the system mechanics as they used to be.

[snow agate]

we literally got attacked this session walking down an alley because a hit squad of maids was planning to "recover" one of our party members, we didnt immediately comply, so they started throwing grenades and doing spellgun stuff

[valid geyser]

I think strict balance is very good for ensuring every game plays similar and DM fiat is less of a thing, but a good DM can make a game fun with any system

[tawny ether]

hence why you got the subcatagories for each

[sleek cloud]

Sounds like yall barely “maid” it out alive

[tawny ether]

but hallo, what are yall talking about?

[sleek cloud]

I’ll see myself out now

[lean wigeon]

good games

[tawny ether]

you can ping me i dont mind, but...wdym by that?

what about said good games

[valid geyser]

There’s someone I know in a who thinks that DM fiat is a complete and utter evil, hoping that AI becomes complex enough to properly run games. I guess i kinda understand their thought process, they just extremely value fairness and there isn’t anything inherently wrong with that

[snow agate]

yeah you can definitely feel the difference, pf2e basically requires these in your party and the classes are very much one role or the other

[lean wigeon]

good games, like 4e and pathfinder

[tawny ether]

uh, alright, can i send in my two cents for what i like in a ttrpg?

[narrow moss]

never underestimate the maid squad.

[snow agate]

no

[snow agate]

they had a second squad coming as reinforcements so we ran away while the cops arrived 😭

[tawny ether]

oh...sorry

[civic notch]

Yes. And I'm pointing out that that underlying system made lots of things very samey within party Roles. That's the homogeneity I'm referring to. Even though you had more build combinations, the end result was often more or less the same.

5e is streamlined in that there are fewer character options, which obviously leads to more people picking the same builds, but it's not the same system-wide homogeneity. Am I making sense? Sorry if I'm not making sense.

[snow agate]

you dont need permission

[tawny ether]

oh no, im just used to being ignored so i just begin announcing certain stuff before it happens

[lean wigeon]

i think ideally that narrative authority in a game should be equally distributed between the GM and the players, i.e. DM fiat is good if players can also impact the story in a metanarrativistic way.

[civic notch]

Yeah that kind of thing happens in big channels

[snow agate]

also sometimes there isnt really a point to responding to something with an "idk" or "ok"

[valid geyser]

Yeah there’s definitely a social contract between dm and players

[gaunt roost]

I think the most problematic thing about the streamlining is the ups and downs. Specifically, for the players. Like, you want ups and downs. You want triumphant moments, and moments where your character just falls on his face comedically. Its hard to get that if the system is too streamlined, because if everyone is doing the same thing you do, just slightly different, its a board game, not a TTRPG. Meanwhile, if its not streamlined enough, you get some classes that get too many show off moments potentially (old wizards most def) and players could feel discouraged by one PC outshining them all

[snow agate]

i agree with this

thats why i like the more "every class is unfair" systems

[tawny ether]

agree, hence why i like 5e a lot, with some...obvious table rules or bans in place so everyone can actually get a chance to shine

[valid geyser]

Yeah I think part of fairness is also just creativity. Some games reward being creative, and some people just are not creative

[tawny ether]

ah, the team fortress 2 strat, wayhey

[tawny ether]

i just like flexability, no matter how its done, but i also like consistency between PCs and the enemie's 'power levels' bc, well, every system has that flaw of being inconsitent, but many people view that inconsistency fun

[snow agate]

yeah i like that in pf1 i can make explosion masters, necromancer bosses, giants with 20 foot reach and 4 aoos, dodge tanks, melee blenders, ninjas with a +40 to stealth, paladins who are basically immune to spells, etc

you get to do extremes

[tawny ether]

that sounds really neat, but i also like when people or tables try to make something that is obviously not been explored properly

like, explosives like you said, or psionics

[snow agate]

i moreso mean a fireball specialist :p

you can actually minmax fireball

but there are alchemists who are specialized in actual bombs and can make landmines too

[scenic zinc]

And it's that reduction in character options that results in more characters being even more mechanically the same than they were likely to be in 4e, especially if that group is one that's focused on power as there are fewer similarly powerful options to choose from.

I get what you're saying - I'm saying the removal of those roles along with the removal of options exacerbated the issue you are pointing out that 4e had. I'm not saying it didn't exist. I'm saying it's more present in 5e.

[tawny ether]

hey now, just turn those fireball stuff into bottles of explosive fire and kaboom you got napalm

[snow agate]

you actually can make your firespells do DoT...

[tawny ether]

probably a 2024 thing but hey, idk

[snow agate]

its not

[lean wigeon]

my favorite part of 5e is flavoring my move and attack action differently each turn fully knowing it has no mechanical nor narrative effect

[tawny ether]

oh, fair enough then

[west timber]

So my LGS has been doing the Sirisdice Mystery Packs, like the water deep collections right

and its feeding my dice goblin baaad, like ooh no I like buying them a lot

[tawny ether]

ha, same, i just imagine the haste spell as a kaioken half the time

[west timber]

even the common ones are realyl good but the reares look amazing

[snow agate]

that is actually a decent gripe i have with 5e, just like its difficult for melees to do crazy melee stuff, classes like wizards or sorcerers dont really do much besides "cast a spell", they cant build for a specific type of spell or magic

outside of niche stuff like evocation wizard not hurting allies

[tawny ether]

melees...well i made feats for melee stuff and made erratas for the spellcasters

[snow agate]

well if you have to homebrew it..

[tawny ether]

for a system like 5e though there's only so much you can do and could do

[tawny ether]

you're forced to homebrew it, bc honestly some of the core system will have to be changed for it to be...better

still despised the way they did vehicles and weapons...

[valid geyser]

Yeah I do feel that. In the game that I am enjoying a lot for being pretty Freeform in stuff you can do, it seems like casters get that benefit as well. The sorcerer in the game I played used a single cause fear spell to instantly take out a CR 7 yuan ti via some convincing that source was from their snake god. It feels like a double standard but it definitely cut combat short and stole some of my thunder (although I think a nat 20 was rolled somewhere)

[civic notch]

Ah okay. I get what you're saying way better now. And I can't really disagree.

The way I look at it the removal of party roles gives players more incentive to play what they actually want to play, instead of optimizing their character within that party role. Having a hard coded role system always made me feel like I was incentivized to lean as hard into the meta for that role as I could.
I know different tables are different in that regard, but I feel like 5e has a more "play it how you want" attitude.

Community pressure notwithstanding, of course.

[snow agate]

i think one of my fav builds in pf1e was an abyssal bloodrager, who was like a fullplated berserker that would turn large in fights and used a bardiche, combat reflexes, and the cleave feats, so they could basically apply pressure or threaten an entire room xd really great crowd control

[civic notch]

Damn.
I found it too hard to get into PF1. It's too similar to 3.5 for my liking, which I had problems with. (Though I have to admit my experience was colored strongly by the kind of nerds I was playing with at the time).

[snow agate]

ya thats fair

[valid geyser]

I’ve been a little meh on pf1 so far. Maybe I should have found a group just playing an AP but I’ll stick it out for a little longer

Ive def been glad to try it though

[scenic zinc]

The 5e community may have a "play as you want" mindset and that may even be what the designers of the system desire, but the mechanics of the system push you in a specific character direction in terms of optimizing any given character. With the loss of roles there's no mechanical incentive or direction to build a given character a certain way, leading everyone down the same pipeline instead of partitioning that pipeline.

Yes, within each role there were similarities, but at least there were definite mechanical differences between roles. Now the only difference is caster or martial.

[valid geyser]

And even then I think the main difference in casters is “do you have healing or a higher variety of damaging spells”

[scenic zinc]

And because healing is garbage in 5e (although '24 healing is better), that's kinda mostly a lean toward damage. It even has become a saying that the best way to stay up is to kill the enemy first, and a strategy to only heal once an ally has hit 0hp.

[hollow stone]

idk, healing doesn't seem that bad

i see people rolling a lot of dice on healing spells

[snow agate]

there also isnt really the concept of buffing in 5e outside of specific spells like bless

protection from energy to me feels like a joke

[scenic zinc]

1d4 or 1d8 plus spellcasting per spell level when monsters drastically outpace that on average is terrible.

[valid geyser]

I think necessarily healing has to be bad, because it shouldn’t outpace damage being dealt too easily.

[sleek cloud]

Big fan of casting aid on short rest as a celestial warlock

[valid geyser]

But even then healing spells are the best form of healing in combat because your other options are trading off healing later for healing now, which isn’t usually a great trade

[civic notch]

Damage always outpaces healing to a big degree. Resources spent to damage are almost always more efficient than spending the same resource to heal.

To the point where the most efficient use of something like Healing Word is just getting someone up from 0hp

[scenic zinc]

I agree. But at least 2d4 or 2d8 does this better, and doesn't feel like a waste

[valid geyser]

Yeah I think 2024 did a good job to make healing at least feel reasonably impactful

[civic notch]

The 5e cleric adage: the best heal is killing the monster faster.

[fickle heart]

Admittedly, it's not actually a bad thing to have very centralizing themes and mechanics. I consider 5e providing options when those options aren't well-supported to be more of an issue than the fact that there aren't a ton.

Essentially, quality over quantity.

There's also no true "solution" to this, as it's entirely related to the values people hold towards the games they engage in.

[snow agate]

my favorite "healer" in 5e was tbh just a light cleric, id spam spiritual weapon and sacred flame and act like they were golden heavenly spears, and otherwise use fireball/wall of flame/daylight/bless/channel divinity

[sleek cloud]

Basically how I built my light cleric

[valid geyser]

Yeah healing is more or less just a sidearm if anything

[sleek cloud]

I even renamed my guiding bolt “spear of Lathander”

[civic notch]

@snow agate Hah I knew I liked you. Laser clerics are my favorite

[scenic zinc]

Yeah, I'm not even necessarily saying 5e is worse than 4e. Just that it's more homogeneous.

[scenic zinc]

I hate how spiritual weapon is concentration now.

[valid geyser]

Yeah it already was kinda meh before

[scenic zinc]

There's a lot of changes they made to clerics and their spells and features that I don't like.

Both mechanically and thematically.

[valid geyser]

I’d say I agree to that. Inflict wounds was made a less risky spell which I’m personally just less a fan of

[tawny ether]

the solution is to homebrew more options and buff the healing...or just use more and more third party options but then we get into the issue of powercreep/power disparity

[scenic zinc]

Guidance now having a requirement of having to state the skill as a way to prevent the "problematic" behavior some players have of declaring it after the fact was entirely unnecessary.

[tawny ether]

which, power disparity is in...every ttrpg, but its insanely apparent in 5e, especially with the third party stuff

[meager fractal]

dang you all got me browsing the 4e monster books rn and these are great reads

[civic notch]

The Critical Role crowd is in shambles

[scenic zinc]

The trick for 5e is just to use a lot of MCDM content

It's 4e, but for 5e

[tawny ether]

oh, god 😭

[fickle heart]

I think it's more homogenous with builds than 4e, but not necessarily with play, which is exacerbated (for better or worse) by 5e not actually defining play much at all.

Though I didn't play 4e, a lot of feedback I've gotten from people who did is that you felt like you were truly doing the same thing over and over, almost like an autobattler.

[tawny ether]

i like the options, but i despise powercreep with a passion

[valid geyser]

Yeah I figure if they needed a nerf I’d just steal from pathfinder and make the target immune to guidance for like a minute so it’s not as spammable

[scenic zinc]

That wasn't my experience with it, but I can see how people could apply the system in that way.

[civic notch]

I love Matt Colville, but I still don't know wtf an illrigger is.
What does it mean to rig something illy?

[tawny ether]

hah, a broken class in the game, wayheyyyyy

[scenic zinc]

It's a terrible name for sure lol

[tawny ether]

i like the name, illrigger flows really well, but um...its a demon knight

[valid geyser]

I kinda like it, but calling it something like “diabolist” would probably be better for summarizing it

[meager fractal]

i thought it was a devil knight

[tawny ether]

which, to call it that is...yikes

[civic notch]

100%. Terrible name, and not enough in the flavor that goes toward explaining how it's different from just an evil paladin

[tawny ether]

idk if i can say the h word but its a that knight

[valid geyser]

Although I’d say diabolist sounds cultist-ish so might make them sound less knight-y

[scenic zinc]

Yep. And that's what it should have been named

[fickle heart]

Ironically, I'm a bit more 2e pilled where you have less options at base and the fun comes from actively playing the game and not really building too much, because there's so many restrictions.

[hollow stone]

hell knight????????

[meager fractal]

i thought illrigger came from old editions for a LE paladin so it kinda makes sense

[valid geyser]

Also I doubt paizo owns the trademark but hellknights are a pathfinder thing so kinda off the table

[tawny ether]

eyuh

[civic notch]

Devil knight is unironically a dope name

[valid geyser]

Oh yeah illrigger comes from the plethora of paladins dragon mag article from the 80s

[scenic zinc]

Sure.

Doesn't make it a good name.

[tawny ether]

eh, nomenclature go br i guess

anyways it is...disgusting which what you can do with it if you look into it a lil bit

[valid geyser]

Yeah I just forgot about it, so I could see colville choosing it as a nod to the past

[scenic zinc]

It's honestly not that powerful.

[valid geyser]

Illrigger is one of the better names anyway, beats Lyan or myrikhan and paramander

[sleek cloud]

Alright let’s hears everyone’s takes on renaming Illrigger

[scenic zinc]

It's strong, yes. But it's never going to do what a wizard can.

People just get too bent into all sorts of shapes about powerful martials.

[valid geyser]

If pathfinder didn’t exist, hellknight. Otherwise something like infernalist

[tawny ether]

bad comparsion, compare it to paladin since its fairly similar to it

[covert root]

Diabolist?

[tawny ether]

Diablo..ist

[civic notch]

I'd call it a Deathknight if Blizzard weren't gonna bust down the door

[covert root]

No, that'd be confusing with the actual monster.

[civic notch]

Oh that too

[covert root]

Oathbreaker Paladin's basically a Death Knight, anyway. Summons undead and all.

[scenic zinc]

The reason I'm comparing it to wizard is because people get too concerned about how strong a martial can be when spellcasters don't get that same level of criticism.

[fickle heart]

Just gotta nerf like 10 spells 👀

[scenic zinc]

Oh you mean like Arthas? The paladin that broke his oath?

[shy stirrup]

1e Wizard: weak in the beginning, strong in the end
5e Wizard: strong in the beginning, stronger in the end

[tawny ether]

blame the general populous, ik all too well what wizards can do unchecked but um...most people keep wizards in check

[fickle heart]

(It is actually a bit comedic how fast you can make any sort of caster superiority vanish by changing a relatively miniscule amount of spells.)

[scenic zinc]

They don't at all lol

[covert root]

Shhh, don’t let the normies know the power of the wizards.

[civic notch]

Arthas is a lich, though. Like, the King of Liches. In a titular fashion, even.

[sleek cloud]

Elminsters elusion

[tawny ether]

just ban magic jar and magic aura and it cooked them massively

then start fixing clone, demiplane, t poly/poly, planar binding, etc

[lean wigeon]

oberoni

[valid geyser]

I think that just via amount of powers and things they can do, you’re never not gonna beat a spellcaster in that regard, but just from a numbers and balance standpoint there’s ways to level the field

[scenic zinc]

Not having an appropriately long adventuring day is the #1 thing that keeps casters being more powerful than martials.

[sleek cloud]

Basically went from paladin to death knight and then lich king

[scenic zinc]

Quite literally did this. Not basically.

[civic notch]

(Don't take me too seriously I just like making stupid pedantic jokes)

[valid geyser]

To a degree, yeah. I don’t think it’s the magic pill but it does make them less spammable

[fickle heart]

Plus, they've been very polite about removing every restriction to spellcasting (as I know I've mentioned before.)

[valid geyser]

Yeah in old editions clerics didn’t really get direct damage spells, so their magic felt different than a magic user. Less so today

[tawny ether]

oh, no, in terms of options you cant beat casters...its borderline impossible, but...balance wise, damage is damage and when you can do a lot of damage it do be really cool

[shy stirrup]

In B/X a Level 1 Cleric has no spells at all

[scenic zinc]

Sorry, I've just played wc3 too many times lol

[fickle heart]

The thing that's the lose-lose is that it's not actually that hard to balance spellcasting as a whole (from a designer standpoint, specifically). You just also have to restrict play and options, which is pretty reasonable ask but is also the method people tend to disagree with the most.

[uncut anchor]

I wanna turn this into a random encounter 🤣
https://www.reddit.com/r/TwoSentenceHorror/s/NK8xS1pRnw

[tawny ether]

its not, just gotta nerf/ban chronurgy wizards and...similar levels of broken to then actually raise the amount of viable options played

[valid geyser]

Yeah I think there are just spellcaster archetypes that rely on very strong spells, like the mind controller archetype

[tawny ether]

the saying less is more applies very much in 5e, people just dont use it

[snow agate]

ngl it is really comical how weak arcane casters are early game in pf1e, if you survive the early levels the late game cool stuff feels earned

[scenic zinc]

There's a whole setting I made that has any casting of any spell, even cantrips, have the caster roll on a wild magic table that's about 75% bad things, 20% neutral, and 5% good.

It's very entertaining.

[valid geyser]

To restrict them is to hurt a class fantasy, which will hurt people who want that fantasy

[tawny ether]

thats...funny

[fickle heart]

I mean, a lot of stuff will almost always be viable. The floor isn't the problem, after all, just the ceiling.

[valid geyser]

You don’t see many enchanters in pathfinder 2e because charm and dominate spells are inherently less than reasonable and were as such restricted a lot

[plush scroll]

Howdy

[snow agate]

yeah now they just barely are worth the effort

[fickle heart]

Tbh, this is actually quite easy to solve, considering that previous editions had it solved.

[shy stirrup]

A 1e Wizard had a d4 for hit dice
A Level 1 Wizard would have 4 hit points.
No cantrips.
One spell.

Have fun storming the castle!

[tawny ether]

i just think banning/nerfing certain stuff helps the play a lot whilst like, you can raise the ceiling by going more PH via the adept feats or race or skill feats

[snow agate]

the cantrips in pf1e are more of a joke because while they exist they do d3 damage, which is worse than any crossbow

[barren token]

Can you guys please help me

[snow agate]

idk just ask the question

[barren token]

I’m trying to start out DND and I wanna make a pirate like guy

[shy stirrup]

1e meaning 1st edition D&D (AD&D)

[scenic zinc]

I think we should all be grateful there's no more vancian casting, though.

[snow agate]

i am aware.

[barren token]

I don’t know how to make a homebrew class and I wanna try to figure out which one of the classes are most pirate like

[tawny ether]

swashbuckler roug-

[valid geyser]

I do also think a lot of linear martials quadratic casters still exists because d&d’s early editions existed on the premise of asymmetry between class progression and all that

[plush scroll]

oh my god.
THATS OPTIMUS PRIME
/j

[barren token]

Appreciated

[valid geyser]

And they failed to truly accommodate such

[limber trail]

You might enjoy a rogue with the swashbuckler subclass, or playing some kind of a fighter class?

[civic notch]

It's like that Brennan Lee Mulligan-ism "what is the greatest form of magic?"
"Friendship?"
"No, stupid. Chronomancy! What good can friendship do when you can literally control time and do whatever you want?" 🤣

[shy stirrup]

PF1E, Pathfinder 1st edition, based on 3.0, no? Or am I wrong

[tawny ether]

Chronomancy and...whats the blood one

[shy stirrup]

Forget which PF is based on which edition of D&D

[snow agate]

there was also a lot of asymmetry between roles. in 5e most classes can fulfill the same objectives, (especially casters) so martials have less strengths

[fickle heart]

The solution is just allowing the player to determine how they want to be restricted.

[tawny ether]

PF1e is DND 2e, PF2e is DND 3.5e

[civic notch]

Hemomancy?

[shy stirrup]

Ah gothca thx

[valid geyser]

Yeah, the fact that there were essentially four classes in the earliest editions meant there was a very clear dividing line between a lot of them

[tawny ether]

yes that

[valid geyser]

Untrue statement

[snow agate]

yeah meanwhile right now, a cleric is often tankier than actual martial classes, and mages can often do as much single target damage as a martial, but can also get AOE too

[valid geyser]

Pf1e is based on 3.5, pf2 is its own thing and is more or less a hybrid baby between the pf1, 4e, and 5e

[tawny ether]

ah, so ive been lied to, got it

[valid geyser]

I think there are also just a lot of factors like the shift to hard combat simulation as a focus of play and the lower lethality rate as well

[tawny ether]

the only difference is resource management, which was meant to be the difference of the classes where the longer the battle goes for the better out martials will be...problem is when the battle is disgustingly short

[scenic zinc]

"Anyone who ever died didn't love enough?"

[snow agate]

thats true, the high lethality rate made arcane casters actually really risky

they generally had lower saves and ac and hp all at the same time so if you jump them they crumble

plus they could hardly ever escape grapples

[valid geyser]

Oh yeah, page 2 or so of the first ever d&d booklet from 1974 stated pretty clearly “magic-users start out very weak and become the most powerful characters if they manage to make it to the high levels” paraphrasing there

[scenic zinc]

Very heavy on the if.

[shy stirrup]

Yes, key word if.

Again, 4 hit points
1 spell
no cantrips

[scenic zinc]

I don't believe 1e had cantrips at all

[shy stirrup]

None whatsoever

[snow agate]

i would go so far as to say the most dangerous thing to a wizard was just any form of ambush predator or rogue

[valid geyser]

In the unearthed arcana supplement there were, but you had to sacrifice one of your spells per day for four of them, and they’re pretty low power level

[snow agate]

they didnt really have options to deal with these

[valid geyser]

Like, a single effect of prestidigitation or “summon a single bumblebee” real spell btw

[scenic zinc]

lol

[shy stirrup]

Fail to get your marching order right? Wizard isn't in the middle of the pack, but in the back? Random Monsters attack from the rear.

reroll gg

[snow agate]

one time i played a cavalier and got dragged off by a pack of leopards...

if i was a wizard i wouldve died xd

[valid geyser]

At least it only took a couple of minutes to reroll a new level 1. The upside of high lethality is usually simple character generation

[shy stirrup]

This is certainly true, no 300 page backstories then

Or, not usually

[snow agate]

most peoples backstories are only one page still..

[shy stirrup]

No skills, no subclasses, much easier/faster to boot up a new PC

You only grew attached to the PC's who, somehow, survived past low levels

[valid geyser]

My experience with old school games it was definitely baby sea turtle sim, but leveling up felt earned which was its own fun

[snow agate]

i do like the shift to a more narrative game where death is rare, feels more interesting

[woven flint]

I'm playing Monster of the Week for the first time rn 😎

Playing a Swamp Ghost fella named "Bog"

[valid geyser]

Yeah I think I like both, they just offer different kinds of fun

[shy stirrup]

It very much did, more importantly, success felt earned. Survival felt earned. Those are now guaranteed in the modern style (of course, one should play as one wishes)

[snow agate]

they're only guaranteed if your dm holds your hand like a baby :p

[woven flint]

Heya, btw, Music :DDD

[valid geyser]

I’m hoping my current 5e game will challenge me more, but it’s been a lot of just being licky

[snow agate]

hi hello hi

[scenic zinc]

I feel like the threat of consequence needs to be present. That can be death, but doesn't need to be. Other consequences can be much more interesting.

[valid geyser]

I think playing the game has the most I’ve been challenged from a creative sense. Playing a thief rogue gives me a lot of tools to approach problems uniquely, but not outright solving them. It’s incredibly stimulating

[scenic zinc]

I'm very much enjoying my rogue in @fossil hollow 's game

[woven flint]

Just curious, on a Scale of 1-10
...
How EVIL is the Xanathars Guild? 🤔
Don't need to know anything in particular, but how screwed is one if they encounter them?

[shy stirrup]

I'm prepping an old school dungeon crawl (in 5e), based on The Lost City.
You will get 1 Death Save.
Backup sheets recommended.
A potentially lethal trap in the very first room.
I am fully aware this will not be everyone's cup of tea 🙂 But my players are on board.

[stoic obsidian]

Or in some cases like a barbarian having to sweet talk a merchant and somehow succeeding

[valid geyser]

I think my one complaint is that I might wanna respec to get higher int, because two bards, a sorc, and a warlock in the party means my charisma is much less appreciated. Although just character wise my guy makes more sense being a suave talky type

[fossil hollow]

hi

[fossil hollow]

bery

[stoic obsidian]

That the one problem with less diverse parties by the way of not having many different strengths

Or in this to many overlapping

[valid geyser]

I will say I don’t have bad int, I just might wanna trade a charisma proficiency for something like investigation. I definitely have the market on dex skills

[stoic obsidian]

I have a farmer barbarian

[valid geyser]

(Also there’s two bards because one of the party members kinda controls an NPC who’s connected to her via backstories)

[stoic obsidian]

I know background doesn’t mean backstory but sometimes background help give ideas on how to build a character

[valid geyser]

Yeah for sure

One of the very few more power buildy choices I made was wayfarer instead of sailor for the lucky feat. I have so many rerolls a day from human inspiration, but it does hurt not having tavern brawler. I like being punchy

[stoic obsidian]

the more unique feats are fun

[limber trail]

we're screwed

[woven flint]

Noted

[limber trail]

decisions were made yesterday which were bad

[valid geyser]

And it’s for sure a flavor match. My guy has gotten into a lot of bare knuckle fights already, I just don’t really have the space to grab it

[stoic obsidian]

Oh yeah am I still lawful good if I uppercut a goblin head off their body and turn a kobold to paste with the stomp of my boot (critical unarmed strike)

[scenic zinc]

I like to fit the background (and other mechanics) into the rp of my character, including my backstories.

[scenic zinc]

-# That's not how alignment works

[stoic obsidian]

I know, Tis a joke

[valid geyser]

I will also say I’m a filthy rich pirate captian so if I really need some kind of way to get good punches I could try and see if I can buy/commission something like magic brass knuckles

[stoic obsidian]

Or be like me and get 20 strength

[valid geyser]

Last session we made a butt ton of money off of pillaging a sugar shipment, and I got captain’s share of that transaction (like a thousand of the 15 thousand from selling)

[snow agate]

yea i agree with that

[strange coyote]

Hello

[valid geyser]

I offered the rest of the officers (my party) an amount, but none of them said they needed more than like a hundred.

[glass granite]

Hi

[stoic obsidian]

You got a not greedy party

[valid geyser]

I will say it’s very weird to be in a position of power over the party, but I am technically co-captain with the warlock but they were out fishing so I made the administrative decisions

[strange coyote]

I’m new here

[snow agate]

cool

[glass granite]

Hi new here, I’m Nugget

[valid geyser]

I didn’t wanna play a stereotypical thief rogue, but someone’s gotta compensate for the lack of greed

[strange coyote]

Well my name is Jasmine

[glass granite]

Oh you got two names?

[stoic obsidian]

We all need greed in our lives

[snow agate]

what do you think is a good call when you have a sort of mellow party? to match the mellowness or compensate it by being more energetic?

[strange coyote]

No just Jasmine

[stoic obsidian]

Just vibe

Is my answer

[glass granite]

I see. Welp, glad to have ya here, Jasmine.

[valid geyser]

I mean the rest of the party is reasonably quirky/energetic, I’m just matching the vibe in a different outlet

[strange coyote]

Thank you

[snow agate]

if i was "just vibing" id play a self insert

[inner surge]

Hey all! I want to do a short, fun D&D-themed birthday quest for my boyfriend next month. I haven’t played before, so I have limited knowledge. Any tips for simple one-shots or silly birthday twists

[snow agate]

i didnt mean about your party your party just brought up the idea in my mind

[stoic obsidian]

You saying you can’t vibe while playing a non self insert

[valid geyser]

The entire reason we got that sugar was because we were stopped by a navy vessel, and I climbed on board to swipe some of their goods. It’s their fault for leaving the very very valuable sugar just laying there

[snow agate]

the easiest thing to roleplay is myself so if my goal was to just vibe i would be myself

[stoic obsidian]

Ah fair

[valid geyser]

Ah, I’d say it’s good to have someone whose on track of the adventure to keep the group focused/moving forward, while not being too controlling

[stoic obsidian]

Guess I miss understood

[snow agate]

is oki

[snow agate]

i think they're def on track, they're just very like, subdued and mellow people , like the opposite of a chaotic group

[stoic obsidian]

But if you end up in campaign were people get off topic or start talking a lot without plot progression then yeah that be important

Why I say 3-5 is max number of players

I find to be acceptable

[valid geyser]

Hm. I’d say if I was a player joining this party, it seems easiest to match the energy, just to not be too disruptive. I think hypothetically at least starting small and just lightly amping up energy might be good to test waters on how much the party likes that sort of stuff.

[fallen thicket]

Question, can I use the Poisoner Feat to apply poison to my Unarmed Strikes?
If so, does this also apply if my PC is a Grung?

[valid geyser]

No, it has to state if it uses unarmed strikes

[snow agate]

yeah i suppose that makes sense, ty

[glass granite]

It specifies “weapon” or “ammunition” I’m pretty sure, so no

[stoic obsidian]

Actually poisoner would be good for a poison magic build

[glass granite]

Eh, it would be aight. Resistance to poison isn’t the most common, but immunity is.

So poisoner would help a bit, but it can’t bypass immunity

[valid geyser]

Also there are like, 5 poison damage spells. Most of them aren’t great

[stoic obsidian]

……. Welp at least it give you chance to inflict stat by simply using a bonus action

[fallen thicket]

sad

[valid geyser]

Like, ray of sickness, poison spray, cloud kill, infestation, and the handful of multi damage type spells

[snow agate]

yeah its a very niche damage type for players

[tame rover]

Hey chat ^^

[glass granite]

Hey Clara

[valid geyser]

Like, I think wotc knows poison isn’t great
Heroes of faerun introduced a snake themed spell, sylunes viper that has a feature called venomous bite that inflicts the poisoned condition which also incapacitated. Guess what damage it does? Force damage

[stoic obsidian]

Guess poisoner isn’t that useful

[tame rover]

Hru?

[glass granite]

Doing well, can’t complain

[stoic obsidian]

Wow, just wow

[glass granite]

Doesn’t stop me from wanting to use it on my plague doctor mercy monk with daggers reflavoured to syringes

[stoic obsidian]

At least poison condition is useful

[tame rover]

Anyone wanna go in dms and talk about the campaign I’m building? I’m a new dm and have no real idea what I’m doing. I don’t know if I’m doing any of this right

[valid geyser]

The spell itself is really bad. It’s kinda like armor of agathys where you get temp hp and the spell ends when you lose it. So it’s way easier to lose than just breaking concentration

[glass granite]

#dm-discussion and #dm-world-building can help you here tho

Why the need for dms

[valid geyser]

Like in theory poisoned+incapacitated with no save is strong, but it’s just super risky

[stoic obsidian]

Sound like a worst armor

[tame rover]

Also tryna make friends

[glass granite]

Friends can be made on here, and having multiple people give you insight is probably better than just one

[snow agate]

only time i saw armor of agathys be good was a shadarkai build meant explicitly to use it with the damage resistance of the bonus action teleport so it could proc damage multiple times before breaking

[tame rover]

Oh ok. Thnx

[stoic obsidian]

What dnd class would you guys fight irl (and you have too) ?

[glass granite]

To the death, and they want to kill me?

[normal junco]

i'd likely die to level 1 of any class.

[glass granite]

Do I get anything?

[stoic obsidian]

Yup, and you get one magic weapon/item

[past blaze]

level 1, with a magic weapon?
That's just an initiative race with something like a thunderbuss

or a wand of magic missile

[stoic obsidian]

I didn’t say what level

[past blaze]

anything higher than that is easily a total commoner kill

[stoic obsidian]

Roll a d20 for level

[past blaze]

considering we would all be commoners

[fallen thicket]

If I fight as I am irl, I think they'll all kill me almost instantly...even a Ranger from 5.5.

[glass granite]

HAH. I choose the Deck Of Many things.

[stoic obsidian]

Deck of many things

[stoic obsidian]

I get a spell scroll with wish on it

[glass granite]

Ring of Three Wishes is just better

But that’s boring

[stoic obsidian]

Not for what I am about to do

[past blaze]

how many cards can you declare from a DOMT again? Is there a limit?

[glass granite]

I draw every card I am allowed

[normal junco]

play solitaire with the thing.

[glass granite]

You know it

[fallen thicket]

Scroll of Tarrasque Summoning.
I die instantly, but at least I take him with me...and the city too, but that's not intentional.

[stoic obsidian]

I wish to switch bodies against the person I am fighting

Now you are the commoner bard

[normal junco]

i think int cha and wis stats follow

[stoic obsidian]

Yet they be in a commoner body so how exactly would they be a threat

[normal junco]

and depending on the interpretation, there's a 50/50 chance of inventory following.

[stoic obsidian]

But that brings up a question

Are the gear attune to body or person?

[normal junco]

character. so attunement wouldn't follow

[covert atlas]

I made a few homebrew races bc I didn't wanna buy some books just for races.

[normal junco]

but if you wished the DM to have both players swap character sheets, that just might do it.

[normal junco]

high five

[stoic obsidian]

Wait if I fight dnd character irl would that mean I be fighting their dm

[woven flint]

BEHOLD

[covert atlas]

I already made a lot of items and 1 spell.

[woven flint]

Glorp

[stoic obsidian]

From adventure time?

[woven flint]

what?

[stoic obsidian]

What?

[woven flint]

I've got my eyes on you

[stoic obsidian]

Yorp

[jovial badger]

all eyez on me

[woven flint]

I'll get you too, lil bastard /joking

[stoic obsidian]

I actually recently took on a kobold sorcerer

[undone fable]

hi there hows dnd

[glass granite]

DnD is dnd’ing

[jovial badger]

dnd is dnd

[jovial badger]

surely you lost right

[kindred salmon]

Character concept
The “soothsayer”
Bard, spirits or eloquence
Spirits for the innate spiritual vibes
Eloquence for pure silver tonguery

Basically you’re a that classic con artist who scams people with palm and tarot readings, crystal balls
Your casting focus could probably be like a crystal ball or tarot deck

[umbral girder]

Sounds like a Diviner wizard with the Charlatan background

[tame estuary]

I keep forgetting I don't have extra attack

[rough basalt]

Not for much longer tho

[stoic obsidian]

Got two throwing axes into them then the Druid burn them into ash by using fire bolt

[umbral girder]

Two weapon fighting build time

[stoic obsidian]

Oh yeah would it be horrifying to use the light cantrip on the inside of a skull? ( red color)

[undone fable]

i love it

[lost kernel]

my Druid always misses fire-based spells

Fire bolt always missed but ice daggers never did

[humble cairn]

Ice Knife has a saving throw component.

[undone fable]

oooof

that is quite a conundrum for fire

[stoic obsidian]

The red light pulsating in tune with your heart beat around the figure in the dark you see the burning eyes almost like judgement and a red halo, yet a welcoming smile, and they say “ well shucks my friend, I didn’t wanna do this, but you probably shouldn’t have destroy this village, at least the ground can feed on your corpse”, you feel a piercing strike on your skull and you see their face and only the eyes, and a neutral expression, and yet you felt uncontrolled primal might from them then you died

[signal basalt]

anyone know a cool app to create a dnd map (continent size)

[spring glen]

If you as yourself were to be dropped off in faerun as an adventurer where would you want to be?

[marble lion]

Waterdeep for the masked lords and the sword coast general fantasy vibe

[spring glen]

Oooo

I'd get so lost in waterdeep

[minor lake]

First session went well
We hit every encounter and the wagon broke down but we had fun

[limber trail]

Azgaar’s is a fantasy map generator that quickly makes huge continent scale world maps that you can customize to fit your needs

[marble lion]

Hitting every encounter is top tier entertainment and exp

[spring glen]

I've got DND Sunday night. Gonna try and get a spell book off of a red wizard

If I die I'ma play a dragonborn artificer

[marble lion]

Wont be easy to get in his good book

[nova trellis]

Session almost went to cr@p today because a player got really heated they couldn't have a tender scene with another PC.

The BBEG was in front of them, he wasnt keen on watching a PC trying to flirt.

[prime pewter]

Just a stupid idea: Venca's Book of Undeath

Kinda like Fizbans and Bigbys

[undone fable]

idk tbh. Maybe a city?

[fossil hollow]

He already did the Book of Vile Evil

Sorry, the Book of Vile Darkness

[prime pewter]

Dw i get ya

But like... an offical 5(.5)e book. Maybe with Alzin Rex (prolly misspelled that) as the guy?

[nova trellis]

Its honestly getting to be such a problem. The BBEG went into phase 2 after doing a dark wish spell. We were all paralyzed but the spell ended prematurely. We were all getting back up, BBEG is in front of us. Player goes straight to the other PC. Holds their hand(no consent btw), "I'm here for you. My body is....." Boss attacks because of course their not waiting.

Anyone here ever watch One Piece? Their character is basically Boa Hancock. They love a character so much, that their entire character revolves around that PC.

[fossil hollow]

that sounds like you talk to that player out of character about expectations and boundaries

[covert root]

Ilighon.

[nova trellis]

Yeah, totally. As another player. I enjoy the occasional cringe but its actually getting to the point of it actually being uncomfortable and worse still, they're basically highjacking another PC to have their......momemts. The player whose a victim is going to be more direct with them about the problem and the DM also.

[tame estuary]

this is weird

like I'd do this if the entire group are friends for like 5+ years

[nova trellis]

I think its a case of having chemistry and a good moment so their desperate to create another good chemistry moment whether or not the momemt calls for it.

Also, they just have a non-healthy obsession with gay shipping.

[marsh aurora]

What now?

[tame estuary]

see, dnd is like dating and the table is like polyamory, so you have to be mindful of what others think, else just get a room

you can do that stuff offscreen if you really want to share with each other

and like there's usually text messages you can send where it won't be too intrusive to the session

[undone fable]

What do you mean? i dont quite understand

I thought Dnd was a TTRPG

[nova trellis]

The victim was like "Sure, they can date after the campaign." They were not into doing a romance.

[tame estuary]

then that's just weird

[nova trellis]

A lot of folks do treat TTRPG as a dating sim unfortunately

[tame estuary]

roleplay needs to be fun for everyone, if someone is genuinely not consenting, that' really uncomfortable

[timid current]

If a player is making another player uncomfortable they get a chance to apologise and not do it anymore, unless it is something that is egregious

But if they do it again they're gone. They can find another table

If it's something blatantly harmful like bigotry or sexual harassment they'e gone

[undone fable]

Hunter's Mark is a great spell

[timid current]

I'm glad you enjoy it

[timber holly]

Hi

How much effort does it take to make a spell scroll?

[flat monolith]

depends for example for a cantrip its 1 day and 15gp while 3rd level is 5 day adn 150gp

you can find this on page 233 of the phb

[serene kite]

Hi!

[undone fable]

hows dnd

[serene kite]

I've only played a couple times, but fun in my experience :)

[serene kite]

This was my first message in the server lol

[dense nacelle]

Just had a dm call me the c word and I’m genuinely fuming, and I dunno entirely what to do

[undone fable]

i like your profile picture. is it a dnd character?

[dense nacelle]

It’s from dark souls 1

[glass granite]

Cu#%?

[dense nacelle]

yeah, referred to my character (who in the moment was talking about helping another pc to a DMPC) a prideful cu##

[stuck shuttle]

Was it supposed to be in character for an NPC or did the DM decide to insult you

[dense nacelle]

It felt like the dm trying to insult me

[stuck shuttle]

Yeah I’d say that’s fair grounds for leaving the table

[glass granite]

I’d say confront them about it off the table first

[marble lion]

Sounds like an npc being rude.

If it bothers you talk to DM. Maybe you picked up on irl hostility or maybe not

Bonus thought: is the dm australian?

[woven flint]

I've finally found out what to replace my deceased Genies Paladin with 🧐

[humble cairn]

Do tell!

[woven flint]

Looks around to make sure that none of my teammates from that campaign are around

AHEM
DON'T LOOK IF YOU'RE PART OF THE CAMPAIGN DAMNIT: ||Shadar-Kai Celestial Warlock|| :>

[humble cairn]

Ahh interesting, got that contrast going on huh?

[woven flint]

Indeed

[red steppe]

Whats a shadar kai

[minor lake]

A shadow-elf

The elves of the shadowfell. They are neither dead nor alive and it used to be that all are sworn to the Raven Queen

I think in 4e they were humans who lived in shadowfell but now Like they are like a group that serves the raven queen
not all of them do
Dark cult elves

[red steppe]

Ohh alrighty

[wet trail]

and feywild elves as their opposite

[humble cairn]

Eladrin?

[minor lake]

Dope

[wet trail]

yh smth like that i forgot their name

[severe rain]

Hey guys, anyone got any good custom character sheet with all the necessary info?

[jovial badger]

wym?

[severe rain]

like a custom character sheet with all info from the 2014 character sheet.

[glass granite]

Like on dnd beyond?

[severe rain]

something i can fill out with my homebrew. i tried dndb but it takes SOOO long to get the homebrew working

[tame estuary]

like homebrew features or like homebrew replacement of existing features?

cuz you can just use an official sheet and fill that in as if you would on a pencil

heck, just print one

[jovial badger]

homebrew aint too hard to get working on dnd

beyond

[hot reef]

It’s a hassle to implement homebrew on D&DB compared to filling out a PDF or paper sheet

[tidal bloom]

Say since Alcohol is technically a poison are all creatures and characters who have poison immunization immune to getting drunk?

[hot reef]

They’d be immune to getting the poisoned condition from alcohol at the very least

It’s definitely plausible

[gaunt roost]

Yes, technically. They might feel a tiny buzz, but they cannot have their stats changed by it, shrooms, or other hard drugs

[tidal bloom]

Funny

Next characters struggle

He gained posion immunity and is now sad that he can't get drunk anymore

[hot reef]

There are some 3.5e drugs that still might do something to a humanoid with immunity to poisoned+poison damage, not sure though

[gaunt roost]

so yeah poison immune creatures could walk through a forest and eat all kinds of mushrooms regardless of how poisonous they are, and at worst they will get a mild tummyache and some mild ringing in their ears

[gaunt roost]

in 3.5 thats because drugs arent necessarily poison, as they technically count as buffs (propaganda? You decide!), and poison immunity doesnt make you immune to healing potions or the like. Anything that has a spell effect still works (if it isnt poison based)

[hot reef]

Yeah there are some I know have buffs and detriments

Sounds like a question for your DM

[glass granite]

It is possible to do the multiclass. It’s not a great one tho.

I recommend asking your DM on what the best course of action is

[gaunt roost]

What do you mean slight shift? As in, just picking up MC? Thats easy if you look at your god/des of trickery. Do they like stealing power from others for their personal gain? No issue. Do they hate cooperation, based on trickery or not? That might need work. Do you want to actually shift levels from cleric over to warlock? Ask your dm

also warlocks are notoriously looking like great MC options until you read the MC rules and realize that they are weirdly the worst possible class to MC into as their spell levels do not stack at all

dont get me wrong, you can make warlock MC work in certain builds, but you actually need to try, and usually eldritch adept feat for a single invocation for pact of blade or whatever could be "better" mechanically (though a 1 level dip just for that/agonizing blast and eldritch blast is valid)

[glass granite]

TLDR: usually more trouble than it’s worth.

[humble cairn]

Can you describe this deal and what kind of powers your character would receive from it? It's highly possible that you could just flavor your Cleric stuff as granted by a patron.

Maybe a Feat to give it some mechanical spice.

[gaunt roost]

eldritch blast is notorious for its consistency in damage output. However, you will be a bit MAD with cleric/warlock? WIS for cleric, CHA for Warlock, Str to keep wielding your medium/heavy armor, Con because conc and HP, if medium armor maybe even dex up to 14?! Thats 4/5 stats you need to balance, if you arent already

[humble cairn]

Also what is the play style you want? Control/Support caster? Blaster Caster?

[glass granite]

Basically, there are ways to take both aspects of the character without having to multiclass

How you want to make it depends on the playstyle and mechanics

[vestal belfry]

Basically, the idea was to lean into treachery, deception, etc.

[humble cairn]

You can have a Patron without being a Warlock since Patron is all flavor. Did you want to be about mundane treachery and deception (ie the Skills) as well as magical trickery?

Will your DM allow you to change your class entirely?

[glass granite]

-# arcane trickster?

[humble cairn]

How do you feel about changing entirely to Warlock or .. and bear with me .. Bard. Bard would allow you to be very very good at trickery and deception while also having the Control spells like a Warlock and the support and healing spells of a Cleric.

[glass granite]

Oh bard goes hard too

[humble cairn]

I suggest Whispers Bard.

[glass granite]

I suggest eloquence

[glass granite]

Only cuz of immense bias

[gaunt roost]

I see. Bard, Bard/warlock or even Warlock (Celestial) all work in that flavour

[glass granite]

I effing love eloquence bards. Plus bardlocks exist!

[humble cairn]

Whispers is great for insidious manipulation.

[gaunt roost]

would reduce the MADness to basically nothing. Cha, Con, and if you want dex. Being freed from the shackles of heavy armor (heh) and unleashed onto the world

[knotty pasture]

Speaking of Celestial, I wonder why Divine Soul Sorcerer is an excellent subclass, but Celestial Warlock is middling in comparison?

[glass granite]

Didn’t know celestial was bad actually, I’m not too well versed is warlocks

[knotty pasture]

The things I read up has all ranked them being average which is a little odd to me considering it is still Cleric spells

And Clerics are powerful baseline

[gaunt roost]

I think it mostly comes down to Spellslots, actually. Having pact slots is fun and dandy, but you get 2 of them, and usually divine spells are great support, but that means you are spending half of your resources on things like bless, or cure wounds, and you do not get the best healing spell in the game, healing word (even though you get a healing word like ability). So, a cleric/divine soul sorcerer might go and cast Aid at the start of the day, then bless in combat, follow that up wiht a guiding bolt and go "yeah that was just 3 first level spells, gonna spend 2 sorcery points to get one of them back or upcast later", while the warlock is already needing a nap after the Aid

a lot of their spells dont "profit" of being automatically upcast, like Revivify. If you are the responsible person in the party with the diamonds and revivify, that means you cannot ever use your second spellslot to actually do anything, because then you wouldnt be that person anymore

meanwhile, sorcerers and clerics just get 2 level 3 spellslots at level 5, up to 3 at level 6, meaning they can just hold one of those back and still do all their stuff. Its just my opinion, but putting a "hold a spell for emergencies" on a warlock takes away from the "Blast and nap" mentality they are going for

[knotty pasture]

O that makes sense

[gaunt roost]

lets see, what spells on the celestial warlock actually DO scale... Aid, Cure wounds, Guiding bolt, Wall of fire, Summon celestial. What spells DONT scale, lesser restoration, Daylight, Revivify, Guardian of faith, Greater restoration. A solid 50% of their bonus spells just dont profit from being cast with a max level pact slot (not counting cantrips)

[pliant matrix]

Me and my friends want to do a one shot in the Winter break, we are all complete beginners but we’re learning as much as we can. We need a dm tho, is anyone interest?🙏

[gaunt roost]

#find-a-game

[reef tundra]

Mind if I DM you to ask for more details?

[gaunt roost]

Hello modest, there are plenty of games going up and down in the channels dedicated for it! I hope you find a fun one for you and your friends!

[knotty spire]

Hi everyone tomorrow I'll do my first session as a DM, do y'all have any tips for me ? 🙏🏽

[pliant matrix]

Not at all

[gaunt roost]

also appearently the Polywife of Archfey and evil demigods wants you in their game. Dont give them your true name or your soul now, she might make you into anniversary gifts

[pliant matrix]

Good luck bro

[reef tundra]

Trust in yourself, don’t be afraid to make mistakes

[gaunt roost]

Remember Rule 0: Have fun. Everything anyone on that table is trying to do is about having fun, and you as the DM should also be having fun, not just perform for the players.

[knotty spire]

Ok thanks I'll try

[knotty spire]

Yeah you're right

[reef tundra]

Hey I can’t direct message you without a friend request

[gaunt roost]

Secondly, its a collaborative experience, so no need for you to know 100% of the rules and the lore, as other people can and should know their own rules and lore. Feel free to double check, and if you feel that takes too much time feel free to go "We are handling it like this now and check later" if you get stuck checking too often (it happens, dont worry, you arent a bad gm because you havent got a photographic memory). Also dont shy away from removing/adding things to your world system that arent necessarily 100% backed by official settings if that makes the experience better for you/your players. Maybe someone wants to play a drow but they dont want constant fantasy racism, as a basic example, so have people be a little curious instead of hostile at best

[rough basalt]

Also you will deal with players bringing stuff that doesn't belong simply because they don't know better

Like the very annoying racist dwarf that's not necessarily the standard in most official settings cause people think every setting is middle earth.

[gaunt roost]

Also relevant, but maybe a bit late with first session tomorrow, do check in with people if there is things they cannot handle even in a spectacular fantasy setting. There are consent sheets online with various themes, but some people cannot even handle the depiction of a ghoul ||devouring a human carcass because of cannibalism|| imaginery. No need to stress that too much, its rare but just establish an "out" sign (waving a hand, covering ears, wagging a finger at you) for everyone, that they can use on each other too in case one of the players accidentally describes a scene that another cannot handle

[rough basalt]

Like I'm to the point I just roll initiative the moment I hear that crap.

[pliant matrix]

Oh sorry

It should be ok now

[gaunt roost]

Its even more funny given that the few official dwarves of middle earth we do see are all about how their innate racism was wrong and how they actually find best friends in hobbits and elves and humans

[rough basalt]

Yeah, honestly I'm considering putting a separate rules guideline for all my games

That's just against all the stupid overplayed stereotypes that are just grating

[gaunt roost]

if anyone can look at Gimli in the movies or books, see how he develops from being sorta prejudiced to full on accepting his limits to going out and accepting that his best friend is an elf and his biggest crush is an elf lady and he wouldnt have it any other way and then go "hehe should play racist dwarf" they are sorta missing the point

[rough basalt]

Bard tries to seduce a monster? The monster gets advantage on the attack cause you're too busy trying to seduce it.

Racist dwarf? You're arrested for public disturbance

[abstract shell]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1064061044311478353/1274519116736106556/caption.gif

[gaunt roost]

See I like to twist the stereotypes somewhat. Like nah, dwarves and elves dont hate each other, but they are strong rivals in arts and crafts and go into heated semantic debates about how geometric shapes based on sturdiness are suprerior/inferior to flowing shapes based on balance

[rough basalt]

Dumb barbarian that just causes a ruckus? You're barred entry from most establishments.

[reef tundra]

And of course being violent when not allowed in will bring in law enforcement

[rough basalt]

Rogue that doesn't wanna play well with others? Alright you go play alone.

Artificer wants to make a nuke? Here's the link for the Shadowrun discord server

[red steppe]

What happens if they somehow survive throughout the entire campaign

[rough basalt]

Usually said characters are built incompetently and die rather quickly ime

[reef tundra]

My favourite is explaining how almost every single creature would be after them for it. Dragons, devils, all bounty hunters and hero teams, everyone

[red steppe]

The BBEG would want them tho

[reef tundra]

Yup

[gaunt roost]

"Yes, he won by a pixies wing in last years carpentry regionals, but thats only because the judge couldnt understand that my footstool needed another 12 hours to properly settle, mushroom wood will do that, anyone knows that. His leaf chair will be brown and dry within the next 10 years, everyone knows that you cannot get proper leaf furniture to last, thats basically nothing, you dont want to put that in your living room!"

[rough basalt]

See subverted stereotypes or having some kind of backing changes things

[gaunt roost]

Oh, my counterargument for nukes is usually the same with any cantrip they want to abuse. If you can do it, other people in the world can do it. If nukes can exist, and gods dont stop you, AND a single guy in a cave can build one? This entire setting has been nuked multiple times, we are now in the fallout universe

[red steppe]

Grimdark setting

[rough basalt]

But in my world, Tolkien bullcrap needs to stay at the door.

[gaunt roost]

Most people dont realize how much work, thoughts and effort went into building the single first nuke in existance. A generation of the brightest minds on the planet and months/years of mining operations with so many accidents and setbacks

[gaunt roost]

Radagast is ok. He can come

[glass granite]

Not to mention the motivation of being in an actual world war

[rough basalt]

I just meant the Tolkien stereotypes

[red steppe]

Arent mages in general have INT way better than the average

[rough basalt]

If they're wizards

If they're other casters they may be barely smarter than average, average or even dumber

[gaunt roost]

Wizards and artificers need int. Its discouraged for your warlocks to have int (otherwise they wouldnt sign the contracts without reading) and your sorcerers (otherwise they wouldnt be as funny) and your bards (otherwise they would make a career out of performance instead of fighting dragons)

[red steppe]

Ohh alrighty

[gaunt roost]

Clerics get a pass, as gods DO exist so its actually smart to worship them if you dont want to go to school

[rough basalt]

Depends on setting but yeah generally

[red steppe]

Perfect for wizard school dropouts lol

[rough basalt]

Like in FR God's exist and are a proven fact

So the average person worships a few of them

That reminds me
Atheist characters are another grating character type

[gaunt roost]

Yeah, its much less a question of faith if someone can speeddial your god and go "Hey sorry to be a bother, but could you tell me the answer to life real quick? Alright, thanks, love you, bye!"

[rough basalt]

They'd probably not answer or give you something vague

[gaunt roost]

Atheists go in the wall in forgottoen realms at least

[rough basalt]

Or just tell you to go screw yourself and find out for yourself

[rough basalt]

Yeah atheists in FR are basically conspiracy theorists

[gaunt roost]

Lathander would tell you to enjoy it and to experience all the good things it offers, and share the enjoyment and goodness with others

[rough basalt]

Like being an atheist in FR is like being a flat earther

[gaunt roost]

hes chill like that (if you arent undead)

All the gods have their own very basic spin on the meanign of "life" as few of them actually have a concept of mortal life (anymore). Ao on the other hand will not talk to you, sitting in his dark corner, being all edgy and full of eyes

[red steppe]

Whats the most grating character type?

[rough basalt]

Guy who whines about anything, doesn't wanna adventure

[red steppe]

Understandable

[gaunt roost]

Racist (insert generic fanatasy race here) edgy loner atheist that wants the plot to revolve around how he needs to be dragged into the adventure against his own will because he has no innate motivation to help/adventure at all

[glass granite]

Someone who does everything in their power to ruin the fun of everyone in existence, just because it makes them feel powerful

[gaunt roost]

The guy that goes "Actually my character wouldnt be in a tavern, hes antisocial" as to undermine the setup of session 1

"Actually in my backstory I wrote that I dated the princess and queen at the same time once, they should remember me"

[rough basalt]

Being a DM is kinda like being a daycare person sometimes

[gaunt roost]

"Actually why should we rescue the villagers from the goblins, its not our fault they got captured"

[glass granite]

I compare it to being a parent sometimes

[rough basalt]

Cause some players you gotta treat like toddlers. (Cause they act like them)

[rough basalt]

Accurate

[gaunt roost]

"They are about to sacrifice a baby on the altar" "What race is the baby?" <- That person

[glass granite]

“Plasmoid”

[gaunt roost]

SAVE THE BLOBBY

[glass granite]

Protec at all costs

[red steppe]

Lets name it blorby

[glass granite]

I wanna name it Oobleck

[rough basalt]

Speaking of plasmoid I wanna work more on my spelljammer game

But I should sleep

[gaunt roost]

remember to make some good jam out of those spells

Also dont forget the obligatory space whales and space dolphins. They are obligatory and necessary for the setting

[red steppe]

Now I wanna know whether there is fictional food/dishes

[rough basalt]

Well I'm sorry for them

Cause this spelljammer game is using a certain enemy from the Halo franchise that really likes organic life

[gaunt roost]

like in general? Most food you cannot actually get is fictional, but I assume you meant something specific, like the Spell-Jam that tastes like fireball and explodes slightly when you bite into it

[gaunt roost]

I see. A Type 26 GSA Banshee combat glider then

[rough basalt]

My players stuck on the Rock of Bral when they start hearing Flood screams:

[glass granite]

Starts writing a will. Fast.

[rough basalt]

Nothing says adventure then a spelljammer covered in gaseous fumes crashing on the rock of bral cause flood tactics number 1: who needs to land

Not hard to make the enemies either

Just take statblocks, give them a modified Undead Fortitude and fire vulnerability with jacked hp.

[gaunt roost]

just remember, if you are playing in person, you will need so many tokens that you just dump out on the table. And when there is barely any space left, put two more bags to the side of the table and go "I guess these will have to remain in reserve for now"

[rough basalt]

Online, but I use foundry so ima be using a lot of SFX and visuals

This is far future tho (running the game)

[keen valve]

Foundry's delectable and grand. A most excellent choice.

Truly, the vtt none of the other services could ever hope to provide.

[void fossil]

Good morning everyone

[keen valve]

Good morrow.

[rough basalt]

Aight well my hand hurts and I need sleep so see yall

[abstract beacon]

Yo

What type of elf best suits monk

[glass granite]

Wood, gotta go fast
Tbh any really

[void fossil]

Was thinking Wood myself

Sorry. Don't know why I pinged lol

[glass granite]

Eladrin gives you misty step and a free cantrip (blade ward ain’t bad)

[glass granite]

I prefer pings dw

Drow…gives you more darkvision ig? And ways to neutralise invisibility.

[void fossil]

Doesn't that normally apply to underdark though (Invis neutralizer)

[cinder timber]

What are some good places to get or make maps?

[stark arch]

qeustion with invisibility spell. when you pick up a item while being invisible does that item also becomes effected? or does it stay normal? visible ?

[glass granite]

How…do you pick up time?

[stark arch]

with action

[void fossil]

Do you mean item?

[stark arch]

item, object

[cinder timber]

Pick up a clock

[glass granite]

Ahhhhh

[still plover]

#dnd-maps is good for a browse. Reddit has a section for battlemaps, and there are a bunch of blogs that draw maps too.

[void fossil]

I believe it stays visible

[cinder timber]

Is there a way to draw my own?

[glass granite]

Paper

[stark arch]

probaly just recast the spell than

[still plover]

Paper works, or Dngeonscrawl, Inkarnate. I've made maps out of screenshots from games. Little filter work, slap a grid down.

[sour cradle]

Depends on how much you're willing to shill out, and what kinda map you wanna make. I always recommend Wonderdraft for world/region maps & Dungeondraft for battlemaps. Though they do come with a one-time purchase. But IMO, worth the price.

[tame kelp]

Hmmm.. one of mutual friend decided to invite and gather people in his group for an incoming new campaign..

I wonder what class I should play?

I love Wizard, but I wanna try something else...

Warlock? Myeh seem hard.

[glass granite]

Monk

[tame kelp]

Sorcerer? Pretty nee-

[glass granite]

Monk

[tame kelp]

A MONK?? NONONO I have never ever ever play monk

[glass granite]

First time for everything

[tame kelp]

Idek how this class work bro

[glass granite]

Learn

[tame kelp]

What is ki?

[glass granite]

Points you use to do stuff better

[tame kelp]

Monk is really a difficult class to play

[tame estuary]

nah just play

[still plover]

Run and punch, that's a monk. So much punching.

[glass granite]

No harder than any spellcaster

[tame kelp]

No one in my friend group play this class. EVER!

[glass granite]

Then be the first

[void fossil]

Ki is akin to inner energy

[tame estuary]

monk is easy, at level 3 you get to not take damage once per round

[tame kelp]

Even I have like 3 years experience with DND 2014, I will not gonna play as Monk.

[glass granite]

Play a monk. They’re great.

[void fossil]

Someday I might actually play lol

[tame estuary]

it's not that hard

you punch 4 times per turn, that's it

[tame kelp]

Whoa

[void fossil]

Haven't played a full campaign since Advanced

[tame kelp]

The one and only class I never ever ever study before is just only monk

[glass granite]

Monk go bonk, bonk, bonk, bonk

[tame kelp]

Cuz my friends think this class is the hardest class to play

[glass granite]

Then learn it and finish of your class knowledge

[void fossil]

Its my experience that learning a "harder" class is gratifying

[glass granite]

So you’re not gonna play a class (that’s a martial by the way) that’s no more complex than a spellcaster because your friends said so?

[tame kelp]

Monk can cast a spell?

[void fossil]

He's saying there's learning for any class

[tame kelp]

My goodness.

fine, I'll try.

Monk no need to use any weapon to fight?

[red steppe]

Nah, he can use his fists

[glass granite]

No need nah

You can tho if you want

[tame kelp]

Using bare hands to fight...

I wonder how the damage output this class can perform?

[glass granite]

It’s not bad. Much better in 2024, but unfortunately you seem to be 2014. Still decent tho.

[gaunt roost]

A monk can use any part of their body to fight and deal damage. Any part. Yes. Even your earlobes. And yes.... even your pecs!

[tame kelp]

You made me spill my drink.

Can monk dance while fighting?

[red steppe]

Including tongue as well

[glass granite]

As much as any other class

[glass granite]

A bludgeoning tongue

[red steppe]

Tao Pai Pai for DND lets gooo

[void fossil]

Just put on "Kung Fu Fighting" and go to town

[gaunt roost]

monks are in a weird place damage wise. They do pretty good "consistent" damage, as they are mostly small dice rollers (2024 was gracious enough to start them at d6) but get a bunch of attacks very early on wiht ki points (as many as 3 attacks on level 2) so you will hit consistently 2/3 attacks by normal progression for medium damage each, which can be cool but you dont get the oomph that big hit crits get (even though with all the attack rolling you will get more crits simply by rolling more).

[glass granite]

So yes. Definitely. They can even be drunk doing so.

[void fossil]

Like Jackie Chan

[glass granite]

Monks in 2014 usually aren’t primary damage dealers, but instead martial battlefield controllers, stunners and zoomers that can also do some damage

[knotty pasture]

Early on you want certain weapons, later on you could go bare handed

[gaunt roost]

stun is an amazing status, tbf, completly takes an enemy out of the initiative for a turn minimum

[knotty pasture]

But keep in mind that by that point you also have access to magical weapons so its a trade off

Monk damage output isn't amazing tbf there's martial classes with better damage output

[cinder timber]

I just need battle maps. I use azgaar for world maps

[humble cairn]

What used to be called Ki is now called Focus.

[glass granite]

2024 closes that gap a fair bit, but again wrong version.
Could you tell I like 2024 monks?

[tame estuary]

I will never use the extra 2 syllables to call them focus points

[gaunt roost]

anyone wielding a greatsword can outdamage a monk, yes, especially with 2014 rules because old GWM is broken af

[glass granite]

It’s an extra 1

[humble cairn]

I like just Focus.

[glass granite]

ki points is 2. Focus points is 3.

[tame kelp]

It's gonna take almost forever to get good at this class like I'm good at Wizard sighh

Time to read about Monk's class 24/7

go to bed at 5 A.M.

[tame estuary]

it's literally not, you just punch 4 times per turn, how is this hard?

[gaunt roost]

Monk flurry of blows level 5: 4 attacks, 4d6+16 (18 in dex), investment of ki point. GWM fighter level 5: 2 Attacks, 4d6+28 (18 in str) because GWM is busted in 2014

[tame estuary]

at level 11 you get to punch 5 times per turn

[tame kelp]

There is another reason why I think Monk is very hard to play

Ki Management

No Ki = useless character in team.

[humble cairn]

Monk is a Dexterity and Wisdom focused melee Damage and Control. It's somewhat of a finesse class because you have a lot of tactical options that require some situational awareness to use well, but the 2024 changes made their baselin higher and so it si more forgiving.

[tame estuary]

you're supposed to short rest every 1 or 2 combat encounters

[glass granite]

Same situation with spells

[tame kelp]

what

[humble cairn]

Monk '24 is also much more forgiving in terms of Focus economy. Are you limited to Monk '14 only?

[tame estuary]

yeah 2014 was built around the idea that you short rest after every fight

[glass granite]

You don’t got spell slots as a wizard, you pretty much don’t have most of your class

[tame kelp]

Yeah I'm only familar with 2014 rule

[tame estuary]

2024 they just made it so that you can regain focus if you don't have any at level 2

[humble cairn]

That might be what you know, but what are you allowed to play?

[glass granite]

As well as make it so monks can do stuff without focus

[gaunt roost]

Hey now, that is unfair and uncalled for. Its a ressource like spell slots, yes they will be less effective without them, but you wouldnt call a cleric useless because they ran out of spellslots or a fighter useless for being in single digit HP. A short rest will regain everything they need

[tame kelp]

I'm gonna ask that mutual person whether he use 2014 or 2024 rule

[tame estuary]

also if you don't have ki, you punch 3 times per turn

[humble cairn]

Yeah, Monk '24 can do a lot of their stuff for free.

[tame estuary]

the class is simple.

if ki is more than 1, punch 4 times per turn
if ki is less than 1, punch 3 times per turn

[humble cairn]

Ehh .. I feel like always using Flurry of Blows was a trap.

[cinder timber]

Wow, that's a great crash course

[glass granite]

If wanna go fast, dash bonus action

[humble cairn]

Oh goodness, I forgot to even mention my favorite part of Monk '24 .. being masters of Grappling.

[glass granite]

Yoink you’re coming with me

[tame estuary]

you sadly can only grapple with hands

I wonder if that create a feat contest is still on, would love to submit a tail grappler feat

[tame kelp]

Playing Monk making me uses my entire brain cells.

Whatever, I'll try play at least.

[gaunt roost]

Really calling a team member "useless" because they used up their resources is a bit insulting. Is the barbarian class "useless" because they already used their rages? Is a druid without wildshapes useless? Is a rogue that is hiding behind the bard usele- ok that one might be true but just because there are "resourceless" classes doesnt mean that the "resource-based" classes should be devalued for spending their resources. Otherwise you can only make parties of 5 rogues, as they are the only one that never run out of sneak attacks, but none of them actually move in to do anything

[tame estuary]

also if you're on a tbale where you have to worry about being "useless", that's not really enjoyable

[humble cairn]

Yeah, burning through all your resources is something any class can do ... except for Rogues?

[tame estuary]

every class has things they're better at and different ways they interact with the game

[gaunt roost]

I guess you could go arcane trickster to give your rogue resources to burn

[humble cairn]

It's not like Monk is the only class that run out of resources.

[glass granite]

You’re overthinking it, I think. Monks are just fast martials that don’t wear armor and rlly like their bonus action. They also have an option to do stuff a bit better with their resource.

[tame estuary]

alternatively you can just not play monk

[glass granite]

That is true

[tame estuary]

if it physically makes you hurt, don't

[glass granite]

Can’t force you to do nothin

[tame kelp]

That's my fear.

[tame estuary]

anyhow I got this story about a player who was mad that the mummy I throw at them weren't week to radiant damage

[tame kelp]

afraid of being called "useless" in any table.

[gaunt roost]

Protip: Print out a little handy flyer with your BA options, so you can do a quick glance over it. If nothing sparks your interest, go for flurry of blows, thats never a wrong choice. If you have punches left over after the enemy goes down, you can punch the rogue, as he is always his own worst enemy, and because he is your friend you are obligated to fight his worst enemy with him

[void fossil]

The more I think on it, Monks "should" be one of the easier to get going with but maybe its just me

[tame estuary]

if you keep thinking about what others think of you you never go anywhere. everyone fails to be the person they're supposed to be

[glass granite]

They’re martials, so yeah

[cinder timber]

Just play what you want. Im a wizard in one game with a subpar spell list, but im still having fun

[glass granite]

Probably the most complex pure martial, but that bar is not high

[tawny ether]

that...yeah, sounds about right

also hi again, how yall doing

[void fossil]

DnD is all about being creative and having fun doing so

[gaunt roost]

A good new for monks and magic weapon economy is that starting with level 6 you count as magic weapon (2014) or get the best damage type in the game, force (2024)

[glass granite]

Sleepy, I might go soon

[tame kelp]

Yeah you're right.

[tawny ether]

oh, same, i stayed up all night bc i woke up way too early

[tame kelp]

I did really overthink lmao.

[gaunt roost]

You said you'd stay until 5 am! Are you going back on your word! /j go to sleep you

[knotty pasture]

No class is that overwhelmingly bad yet in 5e to be useless

[tame estuary]

if a class is bad, they're not in the game

[knotty pasture]

Blood Hunter is bad

[tawny ether]

i wanna make a table rule where fighters get to do the battlemaster stuff on every subclass they got

[gaunt roost]

Even 2014 rangers could work

[glass granite]

They’re homebrew

[knotty pasture]

2014 Rangers after Tasha's is a lot better

[glass granite]

-# Wait I think I missed a joke

[tawny ether]

well...'official homebrew' aka third-party, but yeah

[tame estuary]

and they are bad

[glass granite]

Still homebrew, not official

[gaunt roost]

They are a mercer class, the same guy that had a gunslinger class in their first game and noone knew how it was supposed to work

[tame estuary]

if blood hunter is good they would be in base game

[knotty pasture]

The worst class at 2014 after MMoM is probably Monk, but Monk is also perfectly usable so

[tawny ether]

i put the quote in the- my goodness lmao

[knotty pasture]

Before Tasha's its probably Ranger

[tame kelp]

I will try study for Monk

[glass granite]

Monk has a niche

[tawny ether]

do we count with or without items, becuase with items, they go wicked

[tame kelp]

the only class I've never study before.

[tame estuary]

every class is good with items

[glass granite]

Welp, my job here is done. Good night folks, my bed mimic needs me.

[tame kelp]

I know a lil bit how other class work. This would be easy.

[cinder timber]

Night

[knotty pasture]

With items I suppose, idk what tier lists measure in dnd actually, with or without items?

[knotty pasture]

Pro tip, although Monks do prefer not wearing armor, you still want to go for magical clothing rather than literally fighting in your undies

[tawny ether]

usually its without, but every table usually plays with, so half the time the rankings is...weird

[tame estuary]

martials are slightly better with magic items, but at a certain tier all magic items do is cast spells lol

[tame kelp]

Warlock is just Eldricth Blast spammer lmao

[gaunt roost]

Ranger (Beastmaster) has been unanimously voted worst class of 2014. As you get a wolf/badger without multiattack, that doesnt level at all, so it stays at 11 HP and +4 hits, and it cannot attack unless you spend your action to get it to attack, and thats your entire class feature

[tawny ether]

certain tier, its t3/ rare and up

[humble cairn]

I'm pretty sure that's incorrect about the beast not scaling up.

[tawny ether]

whats the worst caster subclass/class

[humble cairn]

I mean I very much prefer Tasha's and the 2024 Primal Companion, but that doesn't mean we should give incorrect facts.

[tame kelp]

Figter is just action surge and extra attack blah blah

[tame estuary]

probably draconic sorcerer

[cinder timber]

Is wizard divination any good?

[glass granite]

Came back to say 4 elements monk.
Barely counts if at all.

[tame kelp]

Sorcerer is just a spellcaster who hate book

[gaunt roost]

eh just checked yes it levels up very slowly you are right

[glass granite]

YES

[humble cairn]

Yes, if you like to manipulate dice.

[tame estuary]

what are you trying to do here

[tawny ether]

...yes, its like...top 3 wizard subs in the game

[glass granite]

Anyway folks gonna actually sleep

[knotty pasture]

Surely Tasha's buffed Beastmaster to a usable level? The one where you pick from a fixed list of beasts instead of just the version where the beast attacking would use up your own action points

[tame kelp]

idk

[cinder timber]

Oh really, I just picked it cuz it fit.my character story.

[humble cairn]

I made a whole spreadsheet to compare how HP and AC levels up between original Beast Master, Ranger Revised, and Tasha's.

[cinder timber]

Dice manipulation is nice

[gaunt roost]

but well, having a 25 HP wolf with 13 AC is still not very good given that it cant attack at level 5 unless you spend your action

[knotty pasture]

The latter is just terrible and is the original version

[tawny ether]

thank goodness you dont know about the UA version of divination

[humble cairn]

Tasha's Beast Master is great! I played that version and Beast Master '24 as well.

[cinder timber]

What is that? I think I have PHB version

[tame kelp]

is 2024 has the same basic rule like 2014?

[knotty pasture]

I'm having too much time with Gloom Stalker but I will one day try out being a zoo owner

[humble cairn]

No, it's updated with changes.

[tawny ether]

UA is shortform for Unearthed Arcana, aka the playtesting version

[tame estuary]

depends on what you mean by basic

[tawny ether]

have you ever heard of 'theurgy wizard'

[tame estuary]

yes you use the same object called a dice

[cinder timber]

Should I use that one? Is it allowed?

[gaunt roost]

the same BASIC rules of roll d20 and add stuff? Yes. Classes and monsters have however been updated

[humble cairn]

There are a lot of small changes, but it uses the same fundamental system.

[tawny ether]

no no, just use divination, its good

[knotty pasture]

Do people in #optimization count magical items in tier lists? I've been trying to write an unofficial tier list based on opinions from said channel

[cinder timber]

Now u made me curious?

[tame kelp]

everything according to this website https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/dnd/br-2024?srsltid=AfmBOoqPUztecE4mMrU-XSaL7BcSjLqscVVD6QpCOXknZg31O_9d_R_o

[tame estuary]

why...

[gaunt roost]

UA is only allowed if the DM says its allowed, needs to be permitted. It is a playtest, so sometimes glitches and game breaking bugs are in tehre

[knotty pasture]

The only tier list that kind of compares subclasses with other subclasses of the same class is like rpgbot which is controversial

[tawny ether]

no, for the most part, for optimization they dont use magic items because they're not a gurentee, also because the way magic items work in campaigns vs westmarchs

[knotty pasture]

There's a reddit one too but that one is more of a generic vote and is missing Giant Barb

[humble cairn]

HERE is an article with a list of the changes. My favorite is the change to Grapple/Shove.

[knotty pasture]

So asking from the closest thing to a seemingly decent source seems like the best course of action

[tame kelp]

haha that's funny.

[tame estuary]

well you're still adding opinions, not general consensus of the masses

[tawny ether]

tbf you can ask us, if people know about it, played it or seen play for it

[gaunt roost]

if you allowed magic items for optimization things like gauntlets of ogre strength would be in most multiclass optimizations simply for wearing heavy armor and the like, it can go a bit crazy

[knotty pasture]

Its hard to get a consensus, but hey it is the latest opinion so that has to be worth something right

[tawny ether]

also mizapp just...existing

[humble cairn]

Tier lists .. meh. Best/Worst comparisons are not actually that useful in helping people decide what will be the most fun for them to play.

[gaunt roost]

there are also the tomes of permanent stat increases. If you allow magic items in optimization guides, they would tell you to get them. ALL of them. Just consume all these books constantly

[humble cairn]

What's funny?

[knotty pasture]

So far I have Barb and Rogue written down there, I'd probably stick to asking there too else opinions get even murkier in general channels imo

My criteria is just 2014 rules, monoclass only

[tawny ether]

oh, if you do a tier list with fun in mind, most of the fighter classes are actually really fun

[tame estuary]

storm sorcerer could be a contender for the worst subclass

the spell list is a lot of fun tho

[humble cairn]

Those would be entirely subjective, of course.

[gaunt roost]

Also best is relative to the party. I have seen someone go make, in his opinion, an "optimized power rogue" build, only to realize that the rest of the party rolled mostly ranged spellcasters/controllers, so he had noone to flank with and couldnt get sneak attack consistently

[tawny ether]

the worst subclasses for me, its like...this for 2014
purple dragon knight fighters
berserker barbs
alchemist artificers

[tame kelp]

Cuz the website you post is not the right one.

[knotty pasture]

Isn't that just Arcane Trickster Rogue? At that situation I might go Swashbuckler to not be so reliant on conditional Sneak Attacks

[humble cairn]

Oh dangit, you're right.

[red steppe]

I wonder if Berserker Barbs feels very underwhelming

[gaunt roost]

purple dragon knights are really not supposed to be PCs but NPCs. They benefit greatly from more purple dragon knights, and nothing else. If you have 4 of them constantly given each other HP, they are unstoppable, otherwise they are meh. And yes, berserker barbs just die after fighting 4 times a day

[knotty pasture]

The only time Berserker Barbs are winning is in bg3

[tame estuary]

I like the old berserker barb

[humble cairn]

Here is the correct website: https://rpgbot.net/dnd-2024-5e-transition-guide-and-change-log-everything-thats-different-in-the-new-players-handbook/

[tawny ether]

if you do monoclasses, and all the way up to lvl 20, the disparity is hilarious to see

[tame kelp]

Off topic but are you thai?

[gaunt roost]

you mean dnd 5.bg3? They changed SO MANY THINGS to make them "actually fun" and yeah

[humble cairn]

No, but I live in Bangkok.

[tame kelp]

ooooooh

[tawny ether]

i like the 2024 berserker much better...because it actually makes sense

oh, same with eldritch knight fighters

[knotty pasture]

Throwzerker somehow beats Giant Barb in viability

Went from worst to best in a second

[gaunt roost]

"So you, fighter, can now attack 4 times in a single attack action" "cool" "and you, sorcerer, now get a much worse restoration feature than the wizard got at level 3" "uhhh... thanks, I guess?" "And you, monk, get nothing unless you spend all your ki points before a new combat" "what" "And you, moon druid, GET TO TURN INTO A NEW MAMMOTH EVERY TURN UNLIMITED TIMES FOREVER" "Huh. Neat."

[tawny ether]

ah yes, lvl 20 moon druids...where they basically cant die if they know what they're doing

[gaunt roost]

"YOU CAN ALSO CAST ALLY OUR SPELLS WHILE YOU ARE A MAMMOTH. FOREVER"

[tawny ether]

tbf its a lvl 20 character, its really hard to actually kill them, but my goodness

[gilded gulch]

Ok question. If i play a Champion Fighter at level 5 how often would you say they would crit
Rarely
Somewhat often
Quite often
Very often

[gilded gulch]

Assuming extra attack

[tawny ether]

champion fighter lvl 5 huh, so two attacks a turn, with a 19-20 on crit...uhhhh, like...its still rarely

[gaunt roost]

I mean 126 refreshed HP every turn as a bonus action is... neat

[tawny ether]

especially if you dont got advantage

[gilded gulch]

Thing is champion’s abilities are mostly based on criting

[gaunt roost]

Also elemental forms I guess but they have less HP "I spend 2 of my unlimited wildshapes"

[tame estuary]

none

[gilded gulch]

Oh

[humble cairn]

For both 2014 and 2024, Champion Fighters crit on nat 19-20. This brings their critical hit chance from 5% like everyone up to 10%. Which theoretically means you crit once every ten hits.

[tawny ether]

indeed

s/o lvl 20 zealot barbs

[tame kelp]

What kind of personality Monk should be?

[tame estuary]

do all the math you need, but it still requires the dice to roll either of the 2 good numbers and not the 1 bad number

[knotty pasture]

Anything you want

[tame kelp]

calm, peace, seek for justice not revenge?

[humble cairn]

Any personality can fit any class.

[tame kelp]

Lawful Good ig

[humble cairn]

Alignment sucks, ignore it and write up a Personality instead.

[knotty pasture]

You can have revenge just fine on a Monk

[gilded gulch]

Would it be broken then to homebrew the initial buff they get at level 3 from a range of 19-20 to a range of 18-20

[tame kelp]

Oh. XD

[humble cairn]

I mean they eventually get that anyway, at least in 2024 rules.

Otherwise if you're homebrewing, go ask #homebrew

[gilded gulch]

Yea but i mean do it at level 3