#dnd-lore

1 messages · Page 92 of 1

storm dagger
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The Island of Mintarn in FR is a good example

unborn light
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Red Dragons have been defined six ways from Sunday over the years, but some things remain consistent: they're nasty, aggressive, greedy even more than other chromatics, prone to violence, easy to offend, difficult or impossible to negotiate with unless its to offer the aforementioned sheep and gold

jagged apex
storm dagger
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It’s inhabited by a large number of people but it has an Ancient Red Dragon living on it that demands tribute yearly

jagged apex
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heck an easy place for you to be from and have red dragon sorcery perhaps would be Chessenta

hollow ravine
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How does chessenta relate?

jagged apex
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it is the nation the city is located in

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plus your character is an individual as much as anything, traveling to other lands would not by any means be bizzare or unreasonable

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though if you mean something else you may have to elaborate

storm dagger
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From memory White Dragons are the hardest ones to bargain with

jagged apex
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kind of like the lizardfolk, cold, calculating, practical, logical, perfect for hunting

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is also kind of responsable for their half earned reputation as the dumbest of true dragons, but still as if not more intelligent than your average commoner

storm dagger
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Also a degree of pride

White dragons are notoriously difficult to bribe, since any offers of treasure are seen as an insult to their ability to simply slay the creature making the offer and seize the treasure on their own.

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Also White Dragon’s intelligence wise are about on par if slightly lower than the average from checking

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Just a more animalistic bend

hollow ravine
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How powerful are dragons? Reading about their lore they seem like demigods could they be killed?

jagged apex
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it varies, they grow stronger though over time as they age

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only greatwyrms are ones that are of god like power and status, and that is one of the oldest age categories

storm dagger
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5e D&D has 5 primary age catagories

jagged apex
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and fizban's offers multiple possibilities of what could happen to a dragon on their death, some that seemingly make them functionally immortal, which we see with the only epic dragon species to make it into 5e officially so far, the time dragon who even has it baked into their mechanics

storm dagger
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Wyrmling, Young, Adult, Ancient, and Greatwyrm

jagged apex
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but yes, dragons very much can be killed and have been across many editions, even some dragon gods

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granted just cuz they can be killed, don't be fooled into thinking that makes it easy by any means

storm dagger
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Dragons can also only age to Ancient (800 years old +) naturally, becoming a greatwyrm involves a few more steps

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The 4 main age categories also generally relate to the tier they can be fought in

jagged apex
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dragons in terms of their niece in most ecosystems is apex predators even in relation to other apex predators, like bronze dragons favorite food for example are sharks

unborn light
jagged apex
hollow ravine
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You guys have been very helpful i think my orgin is pretty much solid now

storm dagger
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Wyrmling Tier 1 (level 1-4) Young tier 2 (5 -10), adult tier 3 (11-16) ancient tier 4 (17+)

jagged apex
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that is honestly more mechanic relevant than lore

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cuz "levels" are non diagetic, it is not a term used in universe the same way we would use it

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like in universe saying you are "a level 20 wizard" would mean little to nothing other than you are a wizard

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just as an example

hollow ravine
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It’s good term for scale though it helped me understand about how strong an adult dragon would be

storm dagger
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Adult Dragons are basically apex predators and very few things ever want to mess with them on their world

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Ancient Dragons are straight up some of the strongest things period and generally only rivaled by powerful planer beings

jagged apex
storm dagger
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Even then it’s generally not a desirable fight.

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Frost Giants who frequently hunt White Dragons are the most notable exception

jagged apex
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to partially quote how adult dragons are described as a whole in fizban's "After their first century of life, adult dragons are mighty beings. An adult dragon’s influence can extend across a whole region or continent.

Most adult dragons establish additional lairs to expand their territory. These lairs are usually set 50 to 75 miles apart, so the dragon can fly from one to the next in a single day’s travel. An adult dragon typically hunts the area around one lair for a month or more, then moves on to another lair. The dragon’s magical connection to a lair can transform the surrounding region, as represented by regional effects." end quote

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being able to have influence in one form of another across a whole region or continent gives you a good idea of either their power, skill, intelligence, or all of them depending on the dragon, as some dragons have certain norms and tactics or things they excel at compared even to other dragons

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for example, for red dragons this is their physical strength, for greens their intelligence and manipulation of others, ect...

storm dagger
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Old White Death in the North I remember as being particularly clever and talented at magic for a White Dragon and an expert at slaying other dragons

jagged apex
jagged apex
feral lintel
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the most apex of preadators

storm dagger
jagged apex
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but yeah especially among other white dragons one with a nack for magic would definitely stand out and be comparatively remarkable and fearsome, especially since they have successfully slain red and blue dragons among their most famous kills which are typically far superior to whites on the chromatic pecking order traditionally https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Arauthator

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though is worth noting pages don't seem to exist for those particular dragons he killed, so could be ones that he simply out aged and thus was able to over power

feral lintel
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Rime is the listed white greatwyrm in Fizban's, right?

jagged apex
jagged apex
jagged apex
storm dagger
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Just some cool feats

Arauthator employs a wide array of detection and trap spells (most of the latter being cold-based) and wields spells effective against other dragons (such as wingbind), and to enjoy freewheeling aerial clawing and raking battles rather than dodging among mountain peaks and sniping with his spells. Arauthator is famous for tearing apart the venerable red dragon Rathalylaug high above the rooftops of Neverwinter in the Year of the Grimoire (1324 DR), in a spectacular battle at sunset. The white dragon dove down to smash apart a tower in triumph. He happened to choose the tower of the sorceress Shareera, who was smashed amid the toppling stones, even as the blood of the dying Rathalylaug -- and his last, vain firetrail spell -- rained down on the city. Wizards also remember Arauthator for freezing the mage Phaurothlin of the Arcane Brotherhood solid, then shattering the helpless sorcerer against a mountainside. It seems that the haughty mage made the mistake of challenging the white dragon for ownership of a spellbook unearthed from the ice-covered grave of a Netherese wizard during mining north of Mirabar.

jagged apex
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seems who ever made Arauthator's page on the realms wiki oversimplified it cuz it does not mention anything of him having spells, which is odd since with their 3e statistics list they mention his levels in sorcerer

storm dagger
jagged apex
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still, odd his realms page seems to make no mention of his magic

storm dagger
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Yeah like he is explicitly super impressive compared to other whites in that regard

He has obviously transcended the traditional spell-handling limitations of white dragons that keep their verbal-only adaptations to wizard spells of the first level

jagged apex
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personally i find Arveiaturace more impressive because of her sensitivity and how her unexpected companionship as seemingly wound up allowing her to make up for what she lacks in her own magic, not to mention how she is more intelligent and patient than others of her kind https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Arveiaturace

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based on her lore, i imagine she could at the very least keep Arauthator on his toes if they ever crossed paths on bad terms, maybe even beat him

copper rivet
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aw, she seems...nice

jagged apex
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for a white dragon, definitely, though still just as dangerous especially since it notes she would in combat lose all sense of self control

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so if a fight breaks out, you'd be wise even as an ally to keep your distance

copper rivet
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"Worth it." - Meltharond.

jagged apex
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despite her alignment, Meltharond must have been a good influence on her given their relationship and how she has been unable to find a mortal companion yet that embodied all his good qualities, even apparently getting rather "close" if you catch my drift, though we sadly seem to know nothing of his personality https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Meltharond

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like given the mention of good qualities and he has so little history of himself, i can't imagine he was a horrible person of a wizard or if he was it probably was just minor else he'd have some infamy behind his name i imagine

storm dagger
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But I think he’s generally more impressive for his magic expertise. She’s just older than him

jagged apex
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after all for their kind having mated and had an offspring, does not mean they necessarily like each other or have a good relationship, least to my knowledge

storm dagger
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The Dragon that’s probably the most dangerous to encounter in the North is probably Voaraghamanthar

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Cause his twin Waervaerendor will secretly near always be nearby

crude sparrow
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Would it make sense for some Four Elements Monks to be part of the Emerald Enclave?

north vault
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Sure. Being part of the Emerald Enclave is a political affiliation. That's almost entirely disconnected from class

fleet ridge
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So I'm DMing Dragonheist and I've some issues understanding the lore about Waterdeep and Sword Coast in general. Could I ask here about it at any moment?

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I'm a fairly new DM with very new players, btw

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The wiki doesn't seem to help me understand some things, that's why I ask

timid tendon
echo gale
pale hedge
spice meteor
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Jokes about the Underdark aside, is there some place in Faerun that is inspired by Australia?

timid tendon
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Osse

spice meteor
open wolf
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Was it ever established what happened after
||Set stole Sseth's skin....?||
(Vanity's Brood spoilers)

Did Sseth ever get free?

Is Sseth still bound in his realm to modern FR day?

Relevant passage:

||The awareness that was Arvin had no idea who the dog-headed
giant was, save that he was reminiscent of the dog-man who had
followed Arvin all the way from Hlondeth. The awareness that was
Sseth, however, understood that the head was not that of a dog, but
of a jackal, a scavenger of the desert. It conveyed to Arvin the full
extent of what that meant. It was no giant who strode toward him
with an evil leer on his lips but a rival god, Set, Lord of Carrion,
brother to jackals and serpents, King of Malice and Lord of Evil,
slayer of his own kin.
Sseth raged. An angry hiss slipped between his clenched jaws.
Set grabbed his mouth in his massive hands and forced it open.
He placed a golden sandal on Sseth’s forked tongue, stilling it. Then
he stepped inside.
Sseth tried to thrash away, but to no avail; the petrified
vegetation held him fast. He felt Set force his way down his gullet.
For a heartbeat, all was still. Then came a tearing sensation. To
Arvin, it felt as though the skin were being flayed from his body. To
Sseth, who had a deeper understanding, it was recognized as skin
sloughing free. Never before, however, had the shedding of his skin
been so painful.
When it was done, Set stood before him, clad in Sseth’s own
green-and-bronze skin. A serpent head cloaked his own; through its
gaping jaws Set’s jackal grin could be seen. Then the rival god
vanished.||

pg. 227 of Vanity's Brood. Author: Lisa Smedman

jagged apex
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far as i know can can tell Sseth has not been mentioned as breaking free from the prison he was put in during the time of troubles, though is possible there might be something in the new realms books that i am simply not aware of

open wolf
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So does he have an worshipers left then? I imagine that not being able to respond/do anything would cause his faith to die? Unless Set took it over...?

jagged apex
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so long as they have have not printed any newer realms lore that says they don't i see no reason to believe they don't, but if you wanna know for sure i personally would ask ed greenwood since he is the creator of the forgotten realms and since he works on his home version of the realms regularly he likely would know better than anyone especially if it has yet to be addressed in an official product

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though seems tricky cuz sseth took on another aspect and himself was an aspect of the world serpent, so lot of divine complexity going on in one form or another that could somehow change things for all i know

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besides being bound to a realm to my knowledge has not prevented other gods from still having worshipers and being able to grant their clerics power, just look at cyric

fathom pond
tranquil fog
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When does Eberron: Forge of the Artificer take place? Is it before or after Eberron: Rising from the Last War?

pallid flower
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Still 998YK

tranquil fog
pallid flower
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iirc they’re allied with certain “good” Quori and oppose the Quori of Riedra

open wolf
fallow leaf
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yeah i think thats been a lore thing that there are some quori that are more benevolent, but the very short description of the kalashtar in the new book doesnt really mention anything negative about a quori bond

pallid flower
thorny hound
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Are there any "famous" expeditions or places expeditions are sent to this day in lore?

little wind
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Is Myrkul for or against necromancy?

calm crest
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For necromancy. He was a necromancer in life, and that continues to be one of his major powers.

unkempt merlin
# tranquil fog Then what happened to the kalashtar for them to have a positive relationship wit...

They've always had a positive relationship with their quori spirits.

The quori who bound themselves to the original Kalashtar (of which there were an extremely limited number of these quori) were rebels/outsiders in regards to the other quori (ie: they were generally "good").

This is also why so many kalashtar are vehementaly opposed to the quori/inspired - because the spirits they are bound to were also opposed to them

unkempt merlin
jagged apex
storm dagger
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The Quori go through cycles of darkness and light on the plane of dreams and are currently in an era of Darkness with evil nightmare spirits dominant.

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But their era is about to end again, which is why the Dreaming Dark has started infiltrating Eberron. Their goals being to take control of the minds and therefore dreams of Eberron's people so as to continue the current era of darkness indefinitely.

crimson granite
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anyone know the black blade zhentarim quote?

For anyone wondering it was:
"Every blade a black blade." / "Yet all blades are red when they have done their work"

karmic belfry
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If species like elf and human can procreate a half-species in the lore

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I guess they can do it between sub-species, like a drow and a wood elf could bear a child?

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half drow/wood?

ionic rivet
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There's nothing in the lore that I am aware of that would prevent that.

karmic belfry
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Thank you so much!

hybrid ice
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For prince fazcat he comes from another dimension that similar to Skyrim where the kahjiits ruled but then one day fazcats father the king of the kahjits banished his son and told his wizard aslan (not the one related to Narnia)
To send him far away with magic so fazcat woke up somewhere that isn't Skyrim but he will find his way back it's just unknown
So... Fazcat or just Prince fazcat is the only khajiit in my DND lore for my DND club his adventures leads him on many quests and dungeons a that's the lore behind Prince fazcat the prince of khajits and guardian of the crescent Moon because he was born during the crescent Moon

echo gale
karmic belfry
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Thanks!

round crystal
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Hey guys! I am making an assassins guild for my world that I’m homebrewing,
I’m going with the “default” god pantheon of faerun. Is there one god that this guild would praise by any chance? I don’t want to make them crazy like for Bhaal, something more akin to oblivion dark brotherhood though. I want them (members) to do it for profit but the origin of the organisation I want it to come from something bigger, something that even some members don’t know all the details about. So who would fit murder and schemes like that? I thought about raven queen but she’s not about just murdering Willy nilly on contract I think, so not sure if it’d fit her that much.

dark comet
round crystal
jagged apex
jagged apex
# round crystal Hmmm maybe that’s a good one! I had her in thoughts for a different plot for sto...

if going with Shar, you may wanna look into her originations but there seem to be few that would fit the sort of thing you are looking for https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Church_of_Shar#Orders
though you could also consider Cyric, who at one point in time did have Bhaal's portfolio, and currently while having lost it, still is a god of lies and trickery, so schemes would be his bread and butter and has historically had assassin groups of his faith https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Church_of_Cyric#Orders

storm dagger
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Cyric is still god of strife as well

thorny hound
calm crest
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There are a lot of settings. There’s not much we could do to help without a specific one.

still tartan
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What's the lore on Feydark?

jagged apex
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basically is the feywild version of the underdark of toril

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pretty sure that is partially why it is called the "feydark", "feywild", "underdark"

full aurora
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Is there a fiend/demonic counterpart to a deva? I was thinking of cambions but they only have a CR of 5 as opposed to a deva's CR10

jagged apex
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cr is pure mechanics

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in terms of a counterpart, cr means very little especially from a lore perspective

feral lintel
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especially since fiends and celestials dont have a 1:1 system

jagged apex
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but given what a deva is, i am not aware of any fiendish counterpart

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to quote the deva's lattest setting agnostic description of their lore "Devas are emissaries of divine will. These immortal messengers adopt the shapes of mystical beasts or idealized, winged mortals. As with all angels, their true forms are known only to the gods they serve.
Rather than literal correspondence from a god, a deva conveys an allegory or quest to mortals, tasking them with delivering something to its rightful place. While the angel might be called on in times of need, it encourages mortal heroism. Should a deva’s chosen champions carry out their charge, they experience a revelation or the world is changed in line with divine purpose." end quote

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evil gods that dwell/dwelled in the lower planes are still gods so presumably would have devas in their service to unless stated otherwise

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also a cambion is closer to a half-celestial counterpart, being a specific subtype of half-fiends, than a deva

calm crest
jagged apex
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yeah but given they mentioned their 5e crs, pretty sure he is talking about the one not specific to 4e

storm dagger
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A Glabrezu for Demons and a Horned Devil for Devils are probably the closest.

lament hound
# jagged apex if going with Shar, you may wanna look into her originations but there seem to b...

It's important to bear in mind Cyric, in any canonical campaign, will take a backseat to a diminished Cult of Cyric that he cannot empower like other lesser / greater powers due to being imprisoned in the Shattered Throne on the plane of Pandemonium for 1000 years; he cannot manifest on the material plane, at all.

IIRC, he has served less than 150 years of that sentence thus far. This is where being creative can serve you well. I saw an interesting reddit comment that posited Cyric somehow spent time in the Far Realm, bested its monstrosities with ease as a Greater Power, was impervious to the plane's inherent madness due to being mad himself, and left it far more powerful than when he arrived (therefore, able to just free himself without assembling the 7 keys, cause why not?).

That's one idea.

still tartan
karmic belfry
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Hello there, I wanted to ask: are the Bregan D'aerthe established on Waterdeep? Do they have a base of operations, influence and such? and if so, how long have they been working in the city?

jagged apex
grim siren
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Yeah he can manifest but not like he used to. And I would make sense for a cult of Cyric to be actively looking for a way to set him free.

jagged apex
fathom pond
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Like Iuz in GH

versed hare
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any one know if Sultana Songal in the Forgotten Realms adventure guide has any other sources or if shes new in that book?

fallow leaf
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AFAIK she's completely new

jagged apex
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yeah, only thing i can find is they are mentioned being responsible for fighting goblin hordes that attacked calimshan by requesting 20,000 Kochar riders, they don't even seem to have a wiki page, and if they existed prior i imagine they would be likely to have a page, granted there are some things that have been in the lore for a while but still don't have a page on the realms wiki, but far as i can tell nothing suggests them being mentioned any earlier than "forgotten realms: adventures in faerun"

jagged apex
fallow leaf
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After skimming a lot of the calimshan stuff, I think she is a very interesting character, but I'm not all too sure I love her inclusion into the lore. To me, she kind of feels like a plot device to change up calimshan compared to previous editions, which isn't a bad thing. I just feel like I'd rather have her backstory be like, a novel I could've read or an adventure that I could've played through. I guess I feel the conflict in Calimshan is now pretty black and white where Calimport and Songal are pretty undeniably good, and the genies are too much in a deadlock with each other to take her over. Just seems like the conflict all revolves around maintaining the status quo, which isn't my cup of tea

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I guess at least compared to the SCAG, we actually know a lot about this status quo change. Also it seemingly was retconned?

jagged apex
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so they have some influence but it would seem small and secretive and not that long at least going by the one member i could find is known to operate in waterdeep, that being nar'l xibrindas

versed hare
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ahh thanks for taking a pass at this everyone, i think shes actually going to be my villan

fallow leaf
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Nice. I could definitely imagine multiple ways that could happen

versed hare
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Wealth corruupts afterall

fallow leaf
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Yeah I’d definitely want to write her as a villain who basically everyone is in favor of. I feel that would kind of have her in this weird place where she has done a ton of good actions, but has some sinister motives with it as well, which shouldn’t be seen as condemning the good things she’s done
I think the books kinda understated how much change has happened within a relatively short time. I feel like the fact that she ended all slavery, introduced a ton of new magitech, pardoned basically all genies, and is trying to fix relations with them as well as the Dragonborn population all within like 10 years and it really doesn’t seem like there’s many people stated to be in opposition to that I feel doesn’t consider a whole lot of political conflict for calimshan

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I guess it mentions there were a couple past rebellions, but they’ve seemingly all been squashed

versed hare
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yeah i read that as

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she is sitting on a powder keg where everyone has a dagger behind ther back

fallow leaf
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Yeah that’s definitely more of the stuff I wanted to see in adventures in faerun. But most of the conflict focus seems to be about the genie factions

versed hare
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yeah, the genies are trying to incite this for sure in my head

fallow leaf
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Yeah id think them alongside some other former nobles from the old guard

versed hare
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i have genasi players in my game so they may side with the genies becasue of that

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or with the sultana

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i have a scene in my head where a potential Suitor for the sultana comes into calimport in style with huge amounts of gifts, like in the movie alladin, only for the Sultana to drop a power word kill on them

jagged apex
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this sounds potentially more fitting for #dm-world-building given it is mainly focusing around how you are wanting to write a character, even if from the published lore, in your own game

versed hare
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Fair point

fallow leaf
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I’d also imagine some Dragonborn groups having it rough. Considering genies don’t like dragons much and the fact that it was stated to be an almost all dragonborn army attacking and occupying calimportzx I could see room for tension

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But that is true

versed hare
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It does say in the new book that dragonborns make up the sultanas guards

jagged apex
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like while more dragonborn have become more open minded, some still are set in the old ways backed up by their lengthy and harship ridden history from abier, mostly older ones but not exclusively to my knowledge

versed hare
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the dragonborn in calimport, some rallied to Songale and others allied with the genies, there a big part of both sides by the looks of it according to the book

fallow leaf
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I’m definitely imagining a sort of plot line where like maybe someone starts spreading a narrative that Dragonborn are an occupying force and the sultans is just a puppet ruler for them, which vilifies a lot of Dragonborn who aren’t related to the sultana in any real way

jagged apex
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like to my knowledge some people in universe often mistakenly treat dragonborn and half dragons the same, so it can be surprising if they managed to get over this misconception how despite their appearances they have little in common with true dragons and their kin

fallow leaf
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Part of me wishes the time jump for the new FR books was like. 30 years. Feels like a lot has happened in such a short time

versed hare
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its what like 10 years?

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i mean looking 10 years ago in real life, A LOT can change

jagged apex
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well the world of toril is much bigger than earth and ecosystems on it are a lot more packed, plus with magic and the gods being proven facts of existence, is not surprising that sometimes a lot can change in 10 years, saddly depending on the situation it can take much longer for any significant change, after all it is still a world with less than ideal practices and biases against some in varying parts of the world

fallow leaf
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Yeah but I also feel like ten years might not be enough time for everyone to adjust. I think the books would’ve mentioned a lot more people resistant to change than than I’d expect

jagged apex
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plus look at the absolute crisis, which i am pretty sure happened in some capacity in the published continuity, that situation as a whole caused a lot of ruckess on not just the scale of faerun, but potentially all of toril and beyond

jagged apex
versed hare
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Constant calamity is the status qho

jagged apex
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eh, not sure that is entirely accurate

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it certainly is more fitting for a place like calimshan based on it's history at least

versed hare
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In 5e there was tiamat, the ordning breaking, the decent int avernus, vecna, and more

jagged apex
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yeah but some of those incidents either had some time apart or were isolated to some degree

fallow leaf
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True and I think a lot of the lore changes I thought would realistically have more pushback were kinda just changes they needed to have. Like songal abolishing slavery is a footnote and of course it wasn’t that simple of a process irl, but I bet it was more of a descision of wotc because they didn’t want to use those themes anymore

jagged apex
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when i thing calamity i in dnd i think more so like the things we get in the lore that explain changes from one edition to the next, such as the time of troubles, the spellplague, ect...

fallow leaf
jagged apex
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even when things seems easy, they rarely are with secret orginizations, cults, devils, demons, ect... doing things beyond what we mortals tend to even be aware of in universe most of the time

fallow leaf
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Also just for calimshan I really think wotc wanted to be extra sure not to fall on tropes and stereotypes of the Middle East here which is a good thing. I like the new calimshan a lot I feel like it’s presented without as much conflict as I’d expect

jagged apex
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like sometimes when something seemingly is real easy, it turn out, it was easy, too easy, and just leads to something worse

fallow leaf
jagged apex
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karsus is a pretty good example

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he had good intentions, went for an easy way, was successful, but his hubris lead to what should have been the saving of his people, their ruin and nearly destroying magic for ever on toril as they knew it

fallow leaf
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I don’t think that any netherese arcanists had good intentions tbh

jagged apex
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and he was extremely gifted as a mage so it was easy to get there until he realize too late he made the potentially only wrong choice

jagged apex
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though is possible depending on the continuity his goals could have been much more selfish, but far as i know he genuinely was at least in the moment trying to save his people by putting an end to this war, only for it to backfire on him like the hardest part of his spell was likely realizing the mistake he made and being helpless to stop his nation from plummeting to their doom

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though that may just be my interpriation that karsus' folly can serve as a case where something can seem easy relatively, only to lead to something far worse than what you were dealing with to begin with

fallow leaf
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True. I just think that my point about calimshan was that it’s more just something that would probably be written as a much bigger and more complex ordeal if the writer’s intent of it wasn’t to wipe its hands free of slavery

jagged apex
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well there are some meta things to keep in mind that may be influencing some of that, after all wizards of the coast is still a bussiness, will not elaborate further as that would definitely be going off topic a bit

fallow leaf
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Of course

calm crest
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-# Makes me curious as to their presumably upcoming take on Athas…

jagged apex
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as they say, only time will tell

fallow leaf
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yeah, I have no clue how it’s gonna turn out.

jagged apex
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anything we could say beyond the gods abandoning it would be nothing but pure speculation at best

fallow leaf
#

I feel like it’s possible for it to be there too an extent. Because it did have a reason to exist, since that is part of the story, it’s trying to tell.

#

But who knows if wotc cares about the story the setting was trying to tell

calm crest
jagged apex
#

yeah but it is all we have for better or worse so far on it's 5e incarnation, which i think can work to their advantage, as to my knowledge back after vecna's attempt at conquest of sigil, to prevent him from getting in via the same way, far as i know the entire multiverse was restructured in some manner, which could have had who knows how many side effects to what was and what is, messing with time and space and everything else in fiction often can lead to such things, then again i am not familiar with it's old 2e incarnation naturally do to you know, being limited by linear time and getting into dnd with 5e and working my way back in learning of lore

fallow leaf
#

Dark Sun is also just a weird setting where people think it’s edgy for edgy sake, where I think it’s edgy for the purpose of some social commentary (at least in some ways, I can live without the Romani stereotype elves and the mul)

jagged apex
#

to me mul were just half-dwarves, so i am sure if they keep core ideas that are not contraversal or outdated, i think it can work

#

but yeah, a lot of those older sources were less than sensitive when referencing or portraying other cultures from what i hear

#

but i feel this speculation and talk of irl factors may be getting off topic from the stuff the channel is intended for

fallow leaf
#

I think the simplest way to describe how mul are as a species in dark sun is if you know that the name is meant to be like a mule.

calm crest
#

There are definitely parts of the setting that are problematic and could be handled better; that being said, the core theme of defeating tyrants who are driving climatic and ecological disasters simply to cling to their remaining power continues to be more germane than ever.

fallow leaf
#

yeah i think dark sun has a lot of good stuff that can be brought into the modern day alongside some stuff that probably doesnt need to

#

it's pretty unique since it is a setting mostly about its inbuilt story. I think whether it sinks or swims if brought back today is if wotc wants to put in the effort to try and
gasp
make some social commentary

#

also its one of those settings that is different from other settings in a way that wotc might change in order to keep multiverse consistency
like how dragons (or more specifically dragon singular) work in the setting.

calm crest
#

I really hope they don’t 4e it again.

fathom pond
#

I hope they make a slipcase set like they did for Planescape & Spelljammer. I was so happy to get stuff for these settings again…

#

Bought both sets in their alt cover version.

pale hedge
#

but I would love slipcase release too

jagged apex
#

or at the most basic, unless i am mistaken, is a dnd take on a post apocalypse world, where magic, or at least arcane magic, kind of ruined the world causing some people if not most to shun it out of fear and instead make use of psionics, which would require some reworking on that specific detail just by virtue of how psionics are defined in the 5e published continuity

#

"like, can't we just magic things to a better state?", "no, magic got us in this mess in the first place"

pale hedge
#

yeah… lot of bad ecology there. Simplifying it to postapo sounds just as a shortcut, but kind of legitimate

#

and no magic still psionics but used by bad individuals who then enslaved the world

#

and made hobbits cannibals :>

#

which is the most mind formatting idea in d&d worlds to me

jagged apex
#

and i feel given the amount of time between editions and how drastically things can change over time with each of the events that altered the cosmos in some way, i feel that gives enough wiggle room, especially since 4e largely did it's own thing so doubt many will complain if anything it did was ignored save for anything that was well received, is believable

jagged apex
# pale hedge and made hobbits cannibals :>

to my knowledge that is technically a misconception, cuz technically they are not by definition cannibals, is one of those things that can be pedantic, but arguably valid in a world were there is more than just humans as the main sentient species

calm crest
#

My hope is that the setting will be rebooted to pre-metaplot again, since the late 2e metaplot completely made the setting unrecognizable.

#

Halfling anthropophages, to be technical.

pale hedge
#

Yeah… still in this whole post-Tolkien set of ripoffs… making hobbits halflings who steal on the streets of Waterdeep is still within my boundaries of how bad these lazy, great food devouring farmers could go.

jagged apex
#

wonder if it would be lazy, fitting, or both if they basically had it reset to a degree cuz of another apocalypse caused by the misuse of magic or other powers, cuz with some of the things i have seen of it's older lore, clearly drawing magic from the forces that make up say the sun or the sea didn't stop the people of that world the first time, so i imagine someone would do it intentionallly or otherwise at some point at least for all i know

calm crest
#

Immediately surrounding the overthrow of Kalak, Sorcerer-King of Tyr is the richest time period for adventure.

pale hedge
#

darksun’s putting them in the middle of evil is just… morally wrong :)

jagged apex
calm crest
#

I personally think the Birthright take on halflings is one of the more interesting ones.

pale hedge
#

If variance is the key differenciator… I prefer them evolve to ADHD “never grow up” kenders as direction… and leave land of evil and deceipt and corruption to other species

jagged apex
#

kender are not evil, least no more than any other intelligent species, so not sure what you are saying

pale hedge
#

yeah.. I get it… and I enjoyed it… it’s just “format C:” to all things I knew before in D&D

pale hedge
#

as idea fix to reinvent

jagged apex
#

"Kender sometimes amass impressive collections of curiosities. Some might collect mundane knickknacks or relics from magical sites, while others might become professional thieves." to quote their latest 5e description

#

all the kender do is driven by the supernatural curiosity and fearlessness that gets mentioned multiple times

pale hedge
#

all good on kenders. I just put them on the opposite side of evolution from standard halfling than the DS’ incarnation

calm crest
#

I think Athas being a major departure from the rough homogeny of most D&D settings is a good thing. It has little to no Tolkien influence.

jagged apex
#

to quote another part of kender 5e lore while i am at it "Originating on the world of Krynn, kender are diminutive Humanoids who look like humans with pointed ears and diverse appearances. Kender have a supernatural curiosity that drives them to adventure. Due to this inquisitiveness, many kender find themselves falling through portals to other planes and worlds."

pale hedge
#

Just the D&D base, agreed

calm crest
#

Dark Sun is very Swords & Sorcery—your Leiber, your Vance, and a bit of your Moorcock.

jagged apex
calm crest
#

Notably Sithicus has vampiric kender, which don’t naturally occur anywhere outside of the Domains of Dread. ||(Until 5e retconned that.)||

jagged apex
#

wonder how vampirism would effect their perspective, given how unlike most other races they have all that magical curiosity driving most of their actions, like do we have any indication in the lore or is the curiostiy more a 5e incarnation trait? cuz i recall in older editions at least from what have heard they were pretty much genetically kleptomaniacs

fallow leaf
calm crest
# jagged apex wonder how vampirism would effect their perspective, given how unlike most other...

Curiosity has always been part of them. It’s part of the tragedy of their vampiredom:

Unlike the other vampires in Ravenloft, these creatures do not grow more powerful with the passing of time. It is a part of their curse that they must forever remain as they are, denied the pleasures of curiosity or the wanderlust that once gave their lives meaning. It is said that the rising of the full moon reminds these tragic souls of what they have lost and that, on that one night each month, they are unable to do anything but sit and weep beside the coffin that now serves them as both home and prison.

jagged apex
#

interesting

#

as silly as it might sound, i imagine their curiosity probably leads most if not all kender to wind up in those situations to contract vampirism, least i could see that being likely and make it all the more tragic

calm crest
#

Originally, Lord Soth personally created all of the roughly two dozen kender vampires that haunted Sithicus to act as his personal minions in mockery of the elves. It was believed that they could only ever exist in Sithicus, not even entering other Domains, due to the foul magic of their creation.

#

||Granted, then the 5e Dragonlance content just made them generic vampires with no special backstory that existed on Krynn prior to Soth being trapped in Sithicus.||

pale hedge
#

I think Lord Soth brought them to Ravenloft, didn't he?

pale hedge
#

interesting concept for a story emerges instantly once this is new revelation for a DM

karmic belfry
quasi crypt
#

anyone know the keyword to get the stairs to conjure to the shard of night in neverwinter?>

#

or could come up with a fancy one

ebon mountain
#

stairs work fancy ik

jagged apex
quasi crypt
jagged apex
#

well Dungeon issue 193 is cited as where the info of it being purified by selune happened, it might have some mention there

quasi crypt
#

Yeah will have a look into it thanks

jagged apex
#

though also the first mention of the keyword and it's use is cited as being from "Neverwinter Campaign Setting" page 158

#

so it might also be there, seems to be a 4e source

pulsar hill
#

I’m making a character who is an artificer battle smith gnome whose gender and sex is unknown. I want to make a fun personality around this, so if you got any ideas/story beats let me know

One idea is that I keep a mental tally of when a new character assumes I’m a man or a woman. “In this town, man is 5 and woman is 7”

Another is that with the weight of expectations from house medani to perform to a certain standard, gender included, but the other expectations were so heavy that they gave no time to think about gender at all. Now they are in their 40s, gnome adult age, they get in to a fight with their parents, like real bad, and caused them to run away from House Medani. This causes them to go on their adventure, where they eventually discover they don’t think they really want a gender at all.

If I can involve more of the House Medani lore in it I think that could be cool

jagged apex
#

well most of what you said is not really lore relevant, but if wanting house medani lore, the new eberron book is suppose to come out tomarrow so likely will have any updated info there, but until then their latest 5e lore to my knowledge reads thusly "Represented by the basilisk’s eye, the Warning Guild of House Medani brokers the services of bodyguards and inquisitives. Medani advisors specialize in risk assessment and management, protecting clients from both physical and social threats. While Medani overlaps with the inquisitives of House Tharashk and the bodyguards of House Deneith, the Warning Guild specializes in subtle threats and complex mysteries. Baron Trelib manages the guild’s affairs from the Tower of Inquisition in Wroat, where the house also interrogates prisoners for King Boranel of Breland.
The members of House Medani are half-elves with deep roots in Breland. Medani has little interest in the power struggles that sometimes break out between the other dragonmarked houses. Many Medani heirs are more interested in helping their communities than in raw profit, and Medani heirs often work with local law enforcement or help those who can’t afford their services." end quote

#

honestly far as i know a gnome being a part of house medani would be completly out of nowhere and make little if any sense, besides i feel most of this stuff might be better asked in #character-discussion

#

as this channel is ment for talk of what is written in the published lore and thus the published continuity

#

basically what is printed in the books, not anything specific to anyone's table, game, or interpretation of something that originates technically from the lore

pallid flower
#

*Kanon means written by the creator of the setting but not WotC published.

#

And his blogs are generally just meant as possibilities rather than gospel

pulsar hill
calm crest
#

Dragonmarks are closely tied to species. A mark that appears on a species not normally associated with it is considered to be aberrant (even if it’s not literally an Aberrant Dragonmark).

pulsar hill
#

Just fyi, I’m like a week in to my profile on dndbeyond. I know nothing about past lore except what I’ve gathered on lore wikis here and there and then what it says in the newest forge of the artificer book

zenith dust
#

There has always been room for out of expectation dragon marks. I think one of the books even featured one

#

It's just normally tied to specific houses. And the new material does say that being someone with a mark normally associated with a house while not being a member of that house may have social consequences

pallid flower
pallid flower
brave tulip
#

would talking about like nearly 300+ monsters i've made and attempting to finalize their stats and category apply here or in #character-discussion ?

Cuz i mean, i hand drew most of these when i was younger and i'm thinking about making a digital Book for em all

calm crest
modest badger
brave tulip
#

aight

thick sentinel
#

Do you have any more on Aelos?

calm crest
#

There's not too much lore on it, as it only appears in one module as an alternate Prime in Mystara-verse. It first appears at the dawn of humanity/elvenkind, then time-travels to a Graeco-Roman classical period where magic has been formalized and dwarves arrive, then hops to a Medieval war between magic armies and machine-users, and finally to the far future controlled by entropic alien cyborgs.

robust elk
#

So, is it theoretically possible that 1 or 2 Greatwyrm Dragons

Can be on par or surpass Tiamat?

A Greatwyrm is Cr 28
Tiamat is Cr 30

So using that logic, is it possible?

drowsy terrace
#

Quick question, does Tiamat have celestrial servants and if so can one be summoned by a Conjure celestial casted spell from a Tiamat serving Cleric?

merry rune
#

Tiamat isnt celestial though

#

Opposite

drowsy terrace
#

but she is a god so would she only have fiends?

#

so summon celestrial would be a bad spell to have on a tiamat aligned cleric?

merry rune
#

It would need homebrew

robust elk
#

I was expecting Tiamat aligned Paladins and Clerics when I learned tiamat is a god

drowsy terrace
#

although be an awful experience for anyone not draconic

dire olive
#

Tiamat can be worshipped my clerics, iirc

jagged apex
#

though she tends to favor dragons so may have a dragon loyal to her do things for her instead of angel, or impliment one of her abishai

#

though i guess she would just as likely have some devils in her service given her latest lore from her entry in the lore glossary of the 2024 setting agnostic books "Tiamat is one of the primordial dragons who (along with Bahamut) is said to have created the First World. Since the destruction of the First World, she has made her home in the Nine Hells, where she is served by devils and enjoys the worship of mortals across the multiverse. In the Dragonlance setting, where she is known as Takhisis, she is the greatest of the gods of evil. On many worlds, she is known as a god of greed, wealth, and vengeance." end quote

#

but far as i know nothing in her lore makes it impossible for her to have celestials in her service

#

granted these are likely only specific kinds of celestials, but celestials all the same

eager bay
#

What would be the end goal of DnD Main Villains? Like Tiamat, Cyric, Shar, Vecna, Manshoon. Becoming a god and thats it? Or they have a grand ambition to fullfil?

unborn light
eager bay
#

But power can never be a end goal, for it is only a means for a end

#

Power to protect their society? Power to conquer a region?

#

Power to curse Faerun with the Death Curse and live for the evulz

hazy shoal
#

makes me wonder. If one has power to do all, what would one do?

feral lintel
#

Tiamat wishes for dragons to dominate the multiverse, specifically her chromatic children.
Shar is a sadist and wants more suffering in the world
Cyric sows discord amongst the other gods, and aims to grow stronger, due to his paranoia
Vecna hungers and covets all the secrets and knowledge of the multiverse
And manshoon wishes for more control of Toril through the Black Network

eager bay
#

What would a world where Cyric won look like? Pure chaos? And about Shar, I thought she wanted to end existence, did not know she was just another sadistic

eager bay
eager bay
dire olive
#

I have the book, that is what he wants

eager bay
dire olive
eager bay
#

Ok, thanks

pale hedge
#

but she has whole armies once occasionally opens some portals to Krynn. Dangerous business

#

not sure about Toril. i think there could be some individual agents, Cult of Dragon maybe?

#

there is something like Church of Tiamat as I just read through the Internets

jagged apex
storm dagger
#

Tiamat has the Abishai devils as direct agents and servants

jagged apex
#

Tiamat wants to obtain ever more power and wealth and is always at odds with her brother bahamut, Cyric likely at the very least at current wants to get out of his imprisonment, Shar aims to return everything back to the nothingness before creation, before mortal life sprang up on toril before the very sun even was ignited, Vecna wants to rule over all creation and be the god above all other gods, manshoon it depends if you are reffering to him or any of his surviving clones which have taken different paths and or experiences https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Manshoon

jagged apex
jagged apex
#

the last major one i know of was his attempt to conquer sigil and use it as means to conquer the rest of the multiverse, that was all the way back in 2e

jagged apex
#

so he did not really seem to have any big end goal from what i can tell, least nothing different than his day to day

eager bay
#

Thanks

oblique holly
#

Shar doesn’t want to necessarily end all existence, as who would be alive to worship her

#

She wants to kill Selune and plunge the world into darkness

jagged apex
#

no

#

note this specific bit detailed far back as 3e's faiths and pantheons, "Even her own devoted worshipers were simply pawns in her overarching scheme against everything there ever was and ever would be"

#

her end goal is literally to restore things to the nothingness back when she and her sister were the only gods in realmspace and didn't even need mortal worship at the time

#

besides her goals are largely in regards to realmspace as she is specific to that setting, her goals in other settings, should she ever show up in them might differ, but to my knowledge such exampels don't exist in published materials

pale hedge
#

she wan't to reboot the "demiurg mode" then? sort of?

#

as it's not successful obviously, to create a counter balancing plot, are any forces aware of this to oppose actively?

jagged apex
#

does not matter, that is her goal, goals don't have to be achievable or realistic, and if anyone is aware i am pretty sure selune is as much like tiamat and bahamut, the siblings are natural opposing forces

#

and the nature of her goal she only needs to succeed once, does not many how many plots to reach that goal fail, she really only needs 1 to succeed in theory

desert aspen
#

If some mortal was to kill a solar in faerun, would a god like, smite them or something.

merry rune
#

I shot the sheriff

storm dagger
#

God’s are generally too limited to simply directly smite someone that is not their direct agent

desert aspen
#

Fantastic

storm dagger
#

Like manifesting an avatar which they could act through is something they generally need support from their worshippers to do currently

#

Direct action outside of their followers and portfolio is frowned on

calm crest
#

Direct action in Realmspace in general is frowned upon. Ao tends to step in when gods have gone too far in the past.

jagged apex
oblique holly
#

i mean AO wouldn’t been too happy with a god smiting someone

jagged apex
#

plus such a mortal would have to deal with countless other threats all too eager to stop them if for no other reason othan than to preserve their own life and or not be destroyed

oblique holly
#

Nothings stopping the God directing their clerics to then go and kill that person

jagged apex
#

that said, orcus would be all for such a thing, granted he would still not care for you cuz such a thing is so rare, so you'd have to be doing this on the regular which is no easy thing at all, especially for a mortal

#

plus in realmspace many gods would likely become aware of such an attempt as would powerful mages and adventuers and send people to stop such a thing, in the case of mages and adventurers they may very well do it themselves

#

plus gods these days are not suppose to be as directly involved in mortal effairs, that is part of why in bg3 the dead 3 all were reduced to quasi-deity status, do to them ignoring Ao's decree to stop interfering with mortals directly, even bane who was the strongest of the dead 3, this is also why other gods themselves do not step in during the absolute crisis, despite it threating their very source of power and for lack of a better term "life force"

#

in the past though, yeah a god could very much smite you for such a thing, especially if you were to do so via detonating the sun, Amaunator, Annam All-Father, Apollo, Artemis, Elebrin Liothiel, Hiatea, Horus-Re, Iallanis, Lathander, Naralis Analor, Pelor, Seker, Skerrit, Surtur, Tamara, and Utu, would likely take it personally or as an insult, but over the years Ao has had the gods become more and more hands off in the way they are to interact with the mortals

north vault
#

Scarlet, Redacted was referring to Solars as in the angels. Not the sun.

feral lintel
#

im fairly sure that was an example

north vault
#

An example?

jagged apex
#

ah, well angels, solars included are rarely ever on the prime material plane and death for them is not permanent as they are simply stored on mount celestia, and in the latest printing, it is even baked into their statblock mechanically

#

"Exalted Restoration. If the solar dies outside Mount Celestia, its body disappears, and it gains a new body instantly, reviving with all its Hit Points somewhere in Mount Celestia." end quote

north vault
#

So yeah, technically not possible to kill them in Faerun.

#

You'd have to capture the solar alive in Faerun and bring it back to Celestia for the killing blow

#

And no, normally gods cannot just smite whoever they please. There are rules around such things.

jagged apex
#

so to even try to do so you would have to not only technically leave the forgotten realms setting by going to the outer planes, but you'd have to go to the plane where is near impossible to do harm if you are of an evil nature

smoky osprey
#

Can I join

jagged apex
#

to quote their latest lore "Solars stand as the final line of defense between unspeakable evils and the order of the multiverse. They are the servants of just deities and ageless forces of good. Their interests span the planes, but they rarely intervene in conflicts on the worlds of the Material Plane. When they act, they lead vast angelic hosts and wield holy weapons capable of laying low the wickedest Fiends." end quote

#

so if you even see one on the prime material plane, baring hyper specific situations, the smartest thing you can do is get out of there and hope you have nothing to do with the reason they are there

jagged apex
pulsar hill
calm crest
#

Still equally unusual for a Gnome to be in the Human Dragonmarked House Cannith, but fair enough.

pulsar hill
#

Is there any lore there I can use to justify what I’d been talking about with the gender of my character? I know it’s human owned so I can just be like, yeah I’m agender but if I can make it have some sort of fantasy spin that would be fun

jagged apex
#

something does not have to be in the published lore for it to be an individual's personal quirk or trait as a person

#

eberron gnomes are noted as being associated with are mainly associated with Zilargo but also are known in the 5 nations as a whole

#

but to quite their general lore from eberron rising from the last war, "The average gnome has a love of knowledge that borders on obsession, a curiosity that admits no limits, and a vast collection of potentially useful information on every personal acquaintance. Most gnomes detest physical violence and prefer to solve their problems with words — whether that’s a bard’s eloquent persuasion, a wizard’s words of power, or a rogue’s careful threat. They give an initial impression as friendly busybodies, always ready to lend a hand or share a story, while asking questions that tend toward the slightly-too-personal. Often, though, a cheerful and amiable gnome is methodically adding to a mental storehouse of knowledge that might one day provide important leverage." end quote, if that helps

#

if not from Zilargo, this is what they have to say regarding them in the 5 nations, to quote "As they have for countless generations, insatiable curiosity and endless opportunity draw gnomes from Zilargo into the wider lands of Khorvaire. Most of these dispersed gnomes find new homes and integrate easily into local cultures. Gnomes can be found in any walk of life, whether they be as merchants, magewrights, scholars, or scoundrels. While the gnomes of the Five Nations aren’t as inherently devious as their Zil cousins, they share the Zil emphasis on the importance of family.
As a gnome character from the Five Nations, you might have a network of connections to the community your grew up in, likely built on the exchange of information. Alternatively, you might seek your own path in life, avoiding the intrigues your cousins adore." end quote

#

honestly gender does not have a real reason to my knowledge to be all that important at least in eberron unless you make it so

#

regarding dragonmarks they are usually associated with the mark of scribing, thus associating them with house Sivis

jagged apex
#

"fantasy spin" in this context basically is a meaningless term far as i am aware, as nonbinary characters do exist in the lore of dnd and it's many settings

pallid flower
#

Changelings

#

There’s also a ruler who utilized a magic item to become a man in order to rule better

pallid flower
jagged apex
#

from what i can tell there is no emphasis or focus on gender roles or anything in their societies, though family and clan bonds are considered immensely important to them

versed granite
#

Hey fellas, I am not exactly sure were to ask this; But is there an official source explaining how Thieves can't works as language and how to speak it?

cinder folio
#

"While some scholars believed thieves' cant was not a true language,[11] it utilized a unique set of grammar,[12] combined with local dialects, idioms, coded language,[7][11] and hand gestures."

unborn light
versed granite
#

Thanks to the both of yah! dndCheers

#

Found out that another player at my table knows Thieves can't, and I think it'd be funnier to actually speak it (saying the translation afterwards ofc)

shell quest
#

I know species like Warforged and Changeling diffused into Forgotten Realms but did Dragonmarks remain truly exclusive to Eberron?

unkempt merlin
#

lorewise? Warforged are still as exclusive to eberron as anything from the setting.

The hypothetical travel between Eberron and the greater multiverse, while possible, is still highly limited. That includes both warforged and dragonmarks.

Changelings were never actually exclusive to Eberron and existed in forms outside of it already (now the nature of changelings in Eberron is a different matter, but I believe outside of what you are asking)

gloomy cedar
#

Is there a specific lore channel for Eberron or is this for every campaign setting?

unkempt merlin
#

this channel? Its for all settings

#

Discuss WotC-published game settings, and the events and characters that shaped them. Wherever possible, please indicate which setting you're discussing: [Forgotten Realms]/[FR], [Eberron], [Dragonlance], etc.

gloomy cedar
#

In Eberron: Rising from the Last War it says for shifters:
"Many shifters prefer to keep their personal names for their friends and use “wandering names” with strangers. These are usually tied to a physical or personality trait.
Shifter Names: Badger, Bear, Cat, Fang, Grace, Grim, Moon, Rain, Red, Scar, Stripe, Swift, Talon, Wolf"

Are those example Shifter Names their personal name or wandering name?

shell quest
unkempt merlin
#

that would be something different than a warforged

#

Warforged, especially in regards to the name and what they are, is a very eberron specific thing. Creation forges and all of that.

While I don't doubt the FR has had plenty of things that could be mechanically represented via warforged stats, Warforged as a lore thing are an Eberron thing.

grim siren
#

There has been known to be one Warforged running around the realms. But they are still from Eberron

unkempt merlin
shell quest
unkempt merlin
#

The stuff I am saying is not a 5e thing

#

A construct similar to a warforged could (and almost certainly does) exist in the FR. But it wouldn't be a warforged. Warforged and everything about them is specifically from eberron

shell quest
unkempt merlin
grim siren
#

And things from dragon magazine are ideas for how you can use them in your game. Not that the Lantanese are actively making them.

shell quest
unkempt merlin
#

Whatever someone from Lantan made would, simply put. Not actually be a warforged

#

It could appear similar to one, but it wouldnt be one

#

Warforged (including even the name) are pretty specifically eberron

grim siren
#

The only Warforged I know of running around in the Realms is Warden. And he is from Eberron.

#

Now sentient constructs? Those have been in the realms for a while. Primarily in Lantan, Thay, Netheril, Imaskar, and Gontal.

#

And now Calimshan

shell quest
#

Tying the name to the lore and not physiology is quite silly
It looks like a worforged, is built like a warforged, 100% replica but because it doesn't have the historical background it's not a warforged but a "mechanical representation"
This is basically a "anime can't be made outside of Japan" argument

unkempt merlin
#

Its not just the name

#

Warforged are what they are because of the context of eberron

#

That includes their physiology and how they are made

#

You could make the same argument of "magical mark that gives someone magic powers" for any setting

#

But dragonmarks are what they are because of the context of eberron

#

You asked in the lore channel

#

In regards to lore, warforged are only from eberron

shell quest
#

Elves are not just people with people pointy ears, they are from the land of Valinor and whatever D&D has is just a machanical represntation, not an elf

grim siren
#

Valinor is a Lord of the rings thing. Not a DnD thing.

#

In dnd in most settings elves come from Arvandor.

unkempt merlin
#

You have been given the lore answer so im gonna dip now

shell quest
grim siren
#

There is one world that Warforged are native to other than Eberron.

#

Nerath is it tho.

#

And Dragon 371 specifically states that Warforged are not a race on Toril. Any character that uses the Warforged race option is likely one of very very few or one of a kind. And there is no concrete story for how they came to be.

shell quest
# unkempt merlin Its not just the name

Way back when Elves were not just the name too. They were what they were because of the context of Tolkien's works. But that has changed, elves are common across many settings and their lore was replaced with open themes and my argument is that this has happened to Warforged. They can appear without any connection to Eberron, just with theme of "made for war but now lookign for purpose". That is my stance on a the broad topic of calling a species setting exclusive in general.
When it comes to whether Warforged actually was written with new lore in a different setting officially I can't argue with that there is no official FR story portraying them as natives.

grim siren
#

Hey buddy pal. If they state they are leaving the conversation don't pull them back in.

shell quest
#

I didn't see that

#

I was replying to something different then as this question turned into quite a disagreement on the onthology of the matter

hidden relic
#

If Kelemvor is so anti-necromancy, why do all his people get necromancy spells?

jagged apex
#

because it is not that simple

#

he is against the use of necromancy to raise the dead, create undead, ect...

#

necromancy is the manipulation of the energies of life and death in dnd, which includes many healing spells

#

for example there is the use of necromancy strictly for the healing of and treating of the living and the like which those of Sehanine Moonbow's clergy are tolerated to practice so long as they don't use it when it is not necessary, necromancy historically in the forgotten realms at least has had a history of differing moral practices with such magics https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Necromancy#Practitioners

#

kelemvor is basically anti-black necromancy, the more stereotypical evil use of such magics

grim siren
#

He did.

hidden relic
#

Yeah I know my internet is lagging to hell

sly scroll
#

Anyone know if there is any more information or material for Kiaransalee? The wiki has a little bit but her lore is pretty sparse.

Id love any more material, information, or sources on her.

thick sentinel
#

Kiaransali the Revenancer? Lives in the Abyss with her frozen necropolis wearing silver jewelry and black silk veils. She can easily be a deity villain for Greyhawk or Forgotten Realms, directing things behind-the scenes. In the original Greyhawk sources, she was aiding Eclavdra and Markessa from A2 to D3. I'm certain she made her way into a ton of third-party works as well

#

For 5e, she is in a few of the Adventurers' League modules, DDEX33 Occupation of Szith Morcane and DDEX03-16 Assault on Maerimydra, which I remember DM'ing at FLGSes -- both are top-noth content. She's also a hexblade magnet for 5e players and NPCs

dusky wharf
#

There's a good bit of information in 2nd and 3rd edition sources on her, as I recall

jagged apex
#

cuz unless she is listed in sources not cited on her realms wiki page, i am not sure of any to suggest as i presume it would contain all but the most recent of books

#

at the very least i can confirm, since i recently purchased the new realms books finally, she is not mentioned in the "forgotten realms: heroes of faerun", presumably because she is specific to the dark seldarine and is not part of the collective faerunian pantheon

sly scroll
sly scroll
pale hedge
#

I just completed reading/browsing “how not to get eaten by Owlbears - survival guide to Forgotten Realms” - funny little book about various D&D LORE. Nice mood creating intro do D&D LORE for potential new comers. I liked the sarcastic sense of humor inside.

jagged apex
pale hedge
#

could be, I don't know the structure well. book is all about lore and some common myths so I thought it could fit here as first thought

#

I'm chaotic-neutral :) I don't mind structures very well

jagged apex
#

well the sentence is more about your opinion of the book itself, rather than the lore in the book

pale hedge
#

you can stay picky, that’s OK. i never understood channels on Discord while everybody is everywhere… and I never cared much about being strict about structure. As long as it’s close to the core server topic. But that’s also just my opinion. i never saw successful moderation to push people chat in regulated way… that’s just against the principle of chat in its definion. :>

#

it’s like with cheese.. more choice I see… more I just remember there is cheddar and I miss the whole idea of tasting

#

but I've made it for you.. added the connection to one of the sentences above

merry rune
modest badger
#

Heyoo there.

jagged apex
#

basically channels are ment to keep things for dedicated subjects in one place so they are not all fighting for space and if someone has a question or something they don't have to worry about just being buried in all the chatter, and i am not a mod so i am merely trying offer the suggestion of the most fitting place in the server when i can, is up to you to if you listen or not and if it is a problem, the mods are the ones ment to take action, i am simply trying to help as a fan of dnd and it's lore

merry rune
#

This channel isnt for this and while its not evil to mess up, talking about it like this makes it seem strange

modest badger
dark comet
#

(TIL that Americans and British people the word for "morsel of information" differently.)

jagged apex
#

?

pale hedge
# modest badger Ooh, got any Lore titbits or questions about the lore brought up in it?

lot of, in friendly way that wakes up curiosity for more. If somebody knows all that about how different areas in Fearun interact with each other + entry point to other realms in the multiverse then it’s put together in a brilliant way. If somebody doesn’t and needs an intro to the whole world’s complexity with key people, places and stories - it’s the way I’d recommend to give an intro.

rancid tapir
#

Are there any good examples of evil aligned deities in FR contacting/interracting with and manipulating mortals? I’m looking for some inspiration

calm crest
#

The Dead Three tend to be pretty involved in mortal affairs.

merry rune
#

Bhaalspawn yeah

rancid tapir
#

Ooooh yeah, they weren’t on my radar, I’ll do some searching

merry rune
#

Lolth also does it i think a lot

#

Then ofc asmodeus who is a god but also a devil

#

Pacts and tiefling heritage

rancid tapir
#

I’m more familiar with lolth but honestly don’t know too much about the cosmology so I’m looking for some start points

merry rune
#

Beshaba could be an interesting one. Bad luck domain

#

Her influence could be through chance

#

Controlling a mortals life through forced misfortune
"All it takes is one bad day"

calm crest
#

In terms of evil gods who manipulate mortals, Cyric and Shar have had some major schemes as well.

merry rune
#

Definitely

rancid tapir
#

My plan is like a monkeys paw type contract with an evil deity

So this is some good stuff gimme some time to read up

merry rune
#

Beshaba sounds cool for that kind of thing but may be too subtle for your needs

#

Misfortune is very onpoint for monkeypaw

calm crest
#

Contracts tend to be more fiendish than deific, although Asmodeus is both.

rancid tapir
#

Okay the wiki for goes dummy hard for Asmodeus lol

white parcel
#

Is wall of the faithless still a thing?

feral lintel
#

got torn down

calm crest
#

Yeah, it’s not been extant for a while.

white parcel
#

So is the canon afterlife of faithless now to be stuck in fugue plane?

calm crest
#

Unless a demon nabs you, yes.

#

(Assuming you die in Realmspace, at least.)

white parcel
#

Is being sent to outer planes that fits your alignment only applies if you worship a god or some entity? or is it not the case?

calm crest
#

For the Forgotten Realms, you essentially need a divine sponsor to leave the Fugue Plane.

#

Otherwise:

Souls unclaimed by the servants of the gods are judged by Kelemvor, who decides the fate of each one. Some become guides for lost souls, while others are transformed into squirming larvae and cast into the dust.

open hound
#

Honestly, that just sounds like Ed Greenwood doesn't like atheists.

timid tendon
#

Im not even sure if greenwood wrote the wall of the faithless

modest badger
# open hound Honestly, that just sounds like Ed Greenwood doesn't like atheists.

I think more from a world building perspective it's that the gods were absolutely proven to exist so anti-thiesm was very strange and more an rejection of the gods. He did some interviews on the matter if folk are interested in learning about some of the intentions behind the lore:
https://tesseracts18.com/2013/09/30/only-the-insane-believed-there-were-no-gods-ed-greenwood-speaks-of-religion-and-belief-in-forgotten-realms-part-1/

https://x.com/TheEdVerse/status/1773535174648594675

#

But as noted, the Wall of the Faithless has been removed from 5e books.

jagged apex
open hound
modest badger
#

That is true in FR as well.

open hound
#

But you still have to choose a specific patron in FR, something that was only done by priesthoods in ancient Earth pentheistic religions

modest badger
#

You don't. Clerics might, but the general populace does not.

#

The average person worships different gods in different contexts
Swordcoadt adventures guide, p 19 "forms or worship"

#

It goes on to say how and when the general person might show worship or respect to a deity

open hound
#

No, explicitly from the Realms, you had to explicitly choose a patron or end up at the Wall

modest badger
#

That does not match the lore, or what ed greenwood said the intentions were.

The wall was for those who rejected worship of all gods.

unkempt merlin
#

yea the wall was for antitheists

#

(it was always a bit of incongruous lore regardless though)

modest badger
#

Otherwise all other lore sources I've found seem to say the general populace could worship and venerate multiple gods, and clerics could devote themselves to more specific gods.

As I have just quoted and sourced.

#

"Faithless" in FR are those who rejected all gods. Not those who didn't chose a specific god to devote themself too or worshipped multiple. This was true in older editions as well.

Those who firmly deny any faith or have only given lip service most of their lives and never truly believed are known as the Faithless
Faiths and avatars page 3

pale hedge
#

is this for some religion driven storyline in an adventure? Because if not then most of the adventurers don’t care about gods until cure wounds is required and then whoever god’s servant deliver, it’s fine :)

modest badger
#

This is the lore channel

pale hedge
#

but if the first then I think it should be area related

modest badger
#

This is where we discuss lore as written

pale hedge
#

You may have different popularities and devotions levels in different places I’d assume

modest badger
fallow leaf
#

was the wall retconned? I kinda remember something like that existing, maybe in BG3 canon

modest badger
#

It was in SCAG then errata'd out

fallow leaf
#

i guess being able to walk around the fugue plane is a little better than being a brick, but it's still probably pretty boring

#

I do think it's interesting how divine judgement works in the realms, where it seems a lot less like the more mythological idea where someone would judge the deeds you made in life and send you to the good or bad place, instead it more just being "the guy who you were really loyal to will have one of his representatives come and get you eventually" a lot less moral hassle than I thought (i was thinking about this because I had a discussion on the pathfinder setting's treatment of it, which is a lot more traditional in how it's handled, having a lot of weirdness in that regard, especially on the idea of the judgement as a punishment, but i dont wanna dwell on non d&d for too long)

#

my idea is that it seems like worshippers of an evil god probably want to go to the same plane as that god, so being sent to the nine hells wasn't that much of a punishment at least from the perspective of an asmodean worshipper, probably because they believe they can game the system and climb the hellish ladder of promotion in no time (unlikely to be true, but there's at least the chance of a reward if they work for it)

modest badger
#

Yeah I'm not sure where the Faithless stand now. The removal of the mention of the Wall of the Faithless feels like an intentional choice to remove from the lore and not just a case of having not mentioned older lore in the newer edition yet.

BG3 lore is official, but also 'canon into itself' where at times it's lore doesn't match other established lore in the TTRPG (like illithids having souls or not). But that they mention the fugue plane is still an interesting indication that lore is still there. Well have to see if it gets confirmed or mentioned in any new books (I haven't gone deep diving yet- will need to later)

fallow leaf
#

for sure. That's why I wanted to stress "BG3 canon" instead of just full canon

open hound
#

BG3 also totally changed the alignment of Mystra, and turned her into a child predator, according to Minsc

#

Meanwhile, I think I've found where I got the idea that you had to have a specific Patron deity. It was mentioned in 2e's Faiths and Avatars that "Most people in the Realms also eventually settle on a sort of patron deity who they are most comfortable venerating and who they hold in the greatest reverence. A person’s patron deity is the power that eventually escorts that person’s spirit."

#

That implies that if you don't have a Patron, no deity comes to escort your spirit.

fallow leaf
#

yeah that is why i think the bg3 interpretation of just wandering the fugue plane makes sense enough to me

modest badger
#

AHH, yeah I can see how that would reward that way- even the FR wiki has that implications as it also words it as faithless have no patron diety, but when you click through to see what that means the definition of rejecting faith /having superficial or false faith comes up.

#

But I feel, with the other explicit lore, that this doesn't mean an average person must specifically devote themself to one god- just out of those they worship, they will have one they feel closest too/favour more.

open hound
#

Yeah, it's just that aspect of worship in the Realms seems to be reworded in every edition, so those of us who have played nearly every edition regularly get kinda mixed up on the lore. 😄

modest badger
#

Like how a farmer might end up being closer to chauntea, even if she worshipped many gods in life when context arose to. Chauntea will be the one she has worshipped most often and been more drawn to.

#

In the same paragraph as the above quote:

Most vocations have a patron deity: farmers make offerings to Chauntea for the prosperity of their crops, clerks sharpen their quills with a prayer to Deneir, while pious merchants remember to set coins aside for Waukeen at the end of the day. Most people worship a deity associated with their livelihood, family, or home, while others feel called to a particular god for a variety of reasons.
SCAG p.9

#

So I'm not sure if I'd agree the lore says that you need a single patron deity in FR to not be faithless, but I do imagine it'd be hard to both worship dieties earnestly and end up with no patron. The "I have lots of friends but no best friend" situationship

golden canyon
#

There are some religions that don’t allow even lip service to another deity.

Mine for example.

modest badger
#

I was about to say please don't bring real life religions into the discussion then caught your name dndLol

golden canyon
#

I have a Cleric of Bane who is my oldest character dating back to 3.0. 🙂

jagged apex
open hound
#

The whole issue in FR really only came up once in any campaign I was in - a Spelljammer (2eAD&D) campaign. We travelled to Realmspace, and one of our characters died there. And it turned into a whole deific court case because he did not worship any of the Realms deities, and yet died in Realmspace.

jagged apex
#

their soul would have moved on to the natural after life and durign 2e to my knowledge the wall was intact, it if helps there is an artifical on the wiki of the faithless and what defines one as such https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Faithless

#

also you don't have to specifically worship a realms deity

open hound
#

Again, not made clear, and led to one of our characters dressing up like Perry Mason to argue our fellow's case before AO. 😄

jagged apex
#

the outer planes are shared across all settings save for those that state otherwise and there are many gods that are either setting specific and only known and worhsiped in those settings and those who are across multiple

#

so it would not be an issue if they worshiped a god, even if not one known to realmspace

open hound
#

Yes, but the Wall is NOT, and that's the problem. They died in Realmspace, and worshipped no Realms gods. And in 2e it was VERY vague about what "faithless" means, even to the problem of the quote I made above.

jagged apex
#

it is not a problem

#

cuz agian you do not have to worship gods specific to the forgotten relams just cuz you died in that setting

#

the outer planes and thus the afterlives are shared across settings in the published lore, save for settings like eberron who have a self contained cosmology

unkempt merlin
#

5e has said elsewhere (I believe in the DMGs?) about faithless going to planes of their alignment generically

open hound
#

And. It. Was. Vague. In. 2nd. Edition.

#

Never mind

unkempt merlin
jagged apex
#

again, just because you died in realm space does not mean you need to worship any of the gods of that setting to pass on to your after life if you traveled there via spelljamming

open hound
#

The point is Forgotten Realms has explicit rules about faithless, when no other setting did, and they were rather oddly worded in places. No other realm did, so a follower of Fharlangen from Oerth who dies in the Dragonlance setting has no problem.

#

And the Realms made no distinction in the earlier lore.

#

Forget everything from 3e on, we were only dealing with 2e

jagged apex
#

to my knowledge your cleric would just end a realms got to give them their magic on behalf of their normal patron who shares the same portfolio and or domain, it does not effect their afterlife at all even back then

#

and yes, i do mean even back in 2e

jagged apex
# open hound Yes, but the Wall is NOT, and that's the problem. They died in Realmspace, and w...

so the question is, did your cleric believe in a god? not necessarily a god known of in the forgotten realms, but any god?, if so they would go to that god's afterlife, far as i know this was true even back in 2e, from what i know the afterlives and outer planes of the multiverse were never setting specific, and if i am mistaken i am sure someone more knowledgeable and experienced with the history of the lore across all those older editions will be able to provide the proper info

#

and regardless, unless their soul was unwilling to return to life or had already advanced beyond a petitioner, they would still be able to be resurrected so long as their death was not caused by something natural such as old age

modest badger
#

Is the lore question 'If someone dies in FR but worships no FR god but gods from their own sphere/realm, what happens to their soul?'

#

That is an interesting one. Might depend a lot on editions as well, as the general lore on afterlife and souls can shift a bit between them, and Spelljammer had very different cosmology in 2e to 5e (Such as crystal spheres and the phlog to wildspace bubbles in the astral sea.)

golden canyon
#

I think Kelemvor would care for any living being who died on Toril, and then try to make sure the soul (assuming they have not wrong Kelemvor or his followers) would find it's way to the realm they belong.

dusky wharf
#

To chime in here, from what I recall, the Wall as a concept dates to the 2e era, and wasn't present in the initial Grey Box.
Yes, being "Faithless" required a very explicit rejection, and wasn't a common thing, because most in Toril tended to have at least a basic belief in the Gods, even just as forces of nature, and might offer tacit prayers such as for luck, or to ward off bad circumstance, and so on, even if they were not terribly devout.

And as far as plane-hopping, I want to say that you still retain some lingering link to your old world at least for a time, much as how priests of a non-Realms god would still initially have spells, but would at some point stop receiving new ones as that link fades, and need to get power from a Realms god instead.

#

So, not unreasonable that their soul could still go to their original world's afterlife, if they were only visiting and hadn't resettled, etc.

thorn mountain
#

So I was thinking about the decision not to have half-elves and half-orcs as options in the new player's handbook. If I understood the reasoning correctly, they are gone for good. After thinking about it for a while, I think it's a good decision as there were some strange implications of those designation (aside from possible racist connotations mentioned in some reports). For example, if all the races/species are on par, why weren't there half-dwarves too? On the other hand, how would a child of a dwarf and an elf be called? Presumably, half-elf half-dwarf? But then, it seems humans are for some reason privileged because a child of a human and an elf is not half- human half-elf but just half-elf. Anyway, what will be consequences for the lore going forward? Will we stop seeing half-elves in dnd novels?

modest badger
#

I'm trying to remember which source books might cover this. I know Faiths and Avatars also covered how Crystal Spheres interact if a god perishes or weakens in one crystal sphere.

#

It does! Bit complicated though.

golden canyon
# thorn mountain So I was thinking about the decision not to have half-elves and half-orcs as opt...

The biology between humans, and other races probably was just not compatible to produce mixed offspring (half-dwarves, half-gnomes, etc). That's at least a plausible reason why we only saw half-elves and half-orcs.

However with all that in mind you can simply ignore that and allow half-elves and half-orcs at the table and in your stories. My nephew is of mixed ethnicity and he felt it problematic that they were removed as player options based on his real life experience.

feral lintel
#

(do note that they can still be played in the 2024 rules as is)

modest badger
#

Page 4 has a section on 'Divine Immigrants'.
Trying to read through but apparently the way it was dealt with in 2e in the Realm Sphere when mortals who worshipped another god came through:

  • A Realm god had a portfolio matching the port folio of the foriegn god:

    • The Existing Realm God takes over, and the faith changes to accomodate
    • The foriegn and realm god would duke it out.

  • No existing realm god matches the portfolio: That foriegn god can come through and establish themselves.

Either way, it looks like you'll never be a 'Faithless' in the Realms so long as you worship a deity- you'll either get adopted or your god comes with you.
This might only apply to mass migration though and not inidividual.

If a wave of transpheric immigration occurred (most often brought on by a gate opening), the mortals who emigrated to the Realms continued worshiping their old deities. If the Realms sphere of influence those people immigrated to already had powers who possessed the same portfolios as the immigrants’ old powers, one of two things would normally happen: either the worship of the immigrants would go to the already-established Realms powers or the immigrant powers would cross to the new crystal sphere and battle with the old Realms’ deities for control of the contested portfolio.
(....)
If, however, the Realms sphere of influence in the crystal sphere the new immigrants moved to lacked any deity with the portfolio of a deity worshiped by these immigrants, the immigrant deity was free to cross over to this new crystal sphere and sphere of influ- ence uncontested, and in most cases did so.

modest badger
thorn mountain
# feral lintel (do note that they can still be played in the 2024 rules as is)

you mean, by incorporating them from 2014 PHB the way we officially can do with, for example, other four wizard subclasses? Yeah, I know but it seems to me that the intent is to get rid of them. To be more precise, I don't think that we will be getting updated versions of them, unlike with the wizard subclasses. Also, adventurers league doesn't seem to allow them even though they do allow for not-yet-updated class and species options.

feral lintel
#

we teeeechnically did for half elf, but its eberron's khorovar

#

i think i mispelt it

golden canyon
modest badger
#

Khoravar are of mixed elven-human heritage yep, but they'd not personally consider themselves as 'half-elf'. Especially as they're mixed Some will have more human or elven heritage.

thorn mountain
#

there were other problems with that naming convention, I think. For example, what is a child of a half-elf and a human called? Still half-elf?

modest badger
#

Mechanically no, they're humans (least in.. 3e?). Some editions and settings went into that. It was strange.

golden canyon
modest badger
#

This is the issue of trying to gamify and mechanise it. Lore sometimes had to twist itself to explain why.

thorn mountain
modest badger
#

Although, reminder again, this channel should focus on what the Lore actually says, or quotes of authorial intent, rather than one's own opinions and how they'd world build it in their own games.

thorn mountain
#

if we call them half-elves, to be consistent, we would have to call someone whose ancestors were mostly humans but had an elf among them 18 generations ago, also a half-elf.

feral lintel
#

on another, what exactly is an immoth?

thorn mountain
#

so my point is that that naming convention was a mess.

modest badger
#

And lore isn't always good. So this isn't to say that any lore we repeat in here is what you must play by, especially as much of it is outdated and intentionally no longer used. But that when possible, try and find quotes and sources to back up statements.

golden canyon
modest badger
#

Because we're getting a bit too much into opinions, speculations and personal worldbuilding here.

golden canyon
#

Are we?

thorn mountain
golden canyon
#

There is no lore as to why these aren't player options so it is not interfering with current lore.

thorn mountain
#

your plural

golden canyon
thorn mountain
modest badger
golden canyon
modest badger
#

Treat this almost as a rules discussion. Not homebrew or houserules, but rules as written- but Lore.

golden canyon
#

If the game is backwards compatible with 2014 PHB then discussing half-elves is doing just that.

modest badger
#

For example, we do have older lore on human and elven heritages and terminology.
From the 3.5e Races of Faerûn, pg 58

Half-elves have at least one elven parent or grandparent, or two half-elven parents. To put it another way, the child of a half-elf and a human will be human, unless the half-elf parent was the child of a full-blooded elf. Unless a half-elven line marries into other elven or half-elven families, their elf characteristics fade in a generation or two. On occasion elven traits can reappear in otherwise human children born several generations later, but half-elves of such remote descent are very rare.

From the AD&D 2e Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting Box Set Revised, pg 12

Half-elves may mate and breed, but will always produce the offspring of the other parent (a half-elf—elf pairing will produce elven children, while a half-elf—human pairing will result in human children). Second generation half-elves only result if two half-elves marry.

thorn mountain
golden canyon
#

Yeah I remembered the 3/3.5 info on that.

thorn mountain
modest badger
#

And I can pull up a 1e Gygaxian article on mixed species that.. ain't great, but explains the issue of Game design vs lore, where the lore was 'Yes, essentially any mixed species is possible' but mechanically 'No on wants to stat that'.

We can also find examples of mixed-species in lore, such as Human-dwarven heritages being Derro (In Greyhawk), Mul (In Athas) and half-dwarves (in Faerun).
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Half-dwarf

#

Current 5e hasn't touched much on it.

Khoravar exist showing that the concept of mixed species heritage is still possible in 5e. (They are in Forge of the Artificer, are of elven-human heritage and still dislike being called 'half-elven'). Characters who were 'half-elven' in earlier editions may mechanically be 'elf' or 'human' in newer 5e books, but that does not change their heritage. It's a mechanical issue.

golden canyon
modest badger
#

Lore wise you can be of mixed species. Mechanically you're more restricted. The UA tried to go into this, but it never made it into an official book.

thorn mountain
golden canyon
modest badger
#

While you can indeed use the 2014 options in a 2024 game, my point was that there was UA on the build up to '24 that addressed how to handle mixed-species characters but that text never made it into a book.

thorn mountain
#

so I think the clear solution would be to simply use 'mixed heritage' as part of the description of a bakckground., and avoid specific 'half-x' expressions. that would help avoid the problems I mentioned and also those that were motivating the decision to exclude them from new handbook

golden canyon
dire olive
#

I am of mixed ethnicity. I liked half elf. Although I can’t speak for all mixed ethnicity people

golden canyon
#

See when I think of lore I think of "what's happening in...for example...Cormyr during 1499 DR" not "can I say 'half-elf'".

thorn mountain
golden canyon
modest badger
#

Unearthed Arcana 2022: Character Origins Was the UA I was talking about. It has a sidebar called 'CHILDREN OF DIFFERENT HUMANOID KINDS' where it suggests that you pick a stat block best representing the mechanical stats you think best reflects the character and let the character identify as they choose.

#

This did not make it into an official book.

golden canyon
thorn mountain
feral lintel
#

theres a reason why they linked it

modest badger
#

Which is why I'm mentioning it. There are lots of texts mentioned in here many folk might not be aware of. That's in part the purpose of the channel.

golden canyon
#

I understand why you are mentioning it, but still there is nothing in lore answering why.

thorn mountain
#

I guess they didn't keep it in the final version because trhey wanted to leave more room for us to approach it how we wish.

magic trellis
golden canyon
magic trellis
modest badger
#

As mentioned, it didn't make it into official lore. I bring it up more as an 'authorial intent' type source. We can see one of the approaches they were taking for the lore, but we can also see that it intentionally never became official lore.

Similar to how we discussed the removal of the Wall of Faith in errata- which shows an intent to remove it from lore.

#

It's not lore as written, but it gives an idea of what design intentions were happening around the lore.

golden canyon
#

The Wall of Faith is way different than a character option.

#

If my character were to approach Elminster and ask "why are there no more half-elves" his answer should not be "because WotC said so but there is a UA you can click on". There should be some story...lore...behind the reasoning.

modest badger
#

Your PC wouldn't ask that question because there are still mixed human-elven individuals.

#

Elminster would respond 'What are you talking about.'

dire olive
modest badger
#

It is a mechanical removal.

thorn mountain
#

Elminster breaking the fourth wall. I wouldn't put it past him...

modest badger
#

Not a lore removal.

feral lintel
#

he regularly goes here for dr pepper...

golden canyon
#

Right. So why do we keep bringing up the UA? It's not lore.

dire olive
golden canyon
#

I think we are all aware of it mechanically.

modest badger
#

Lore through out editions has been: Mixed species individuals have been possible.
Mechanics through out editions have been: We are statting some of them.

In 5e '24, they have chosen not to mechanically represent the two classic mixed-species origins: Half-orc and half-elves.
They have not been removed from lore. They still exist in the lore.

golden canyon
# modest badger Lore through out editions has been: Mixed species individuals have been possible...

I have understood that since you first mentioned it. I'm trying to understand the focus on answering mechanically when all questions that started this conversation were based on lore (not mechanics).

...and if lore wise they still exist then anyone can crack open a 2014 PHB, use the racial ability modifiers and everything else under the half-elf creation info, and move forward on their adventure being awesome and making their own lore.

#

or adding to existing lore

thorn mountain
modest badger
#

Because the UA also addresses more than half-elves and Half-orcs. it showed intent that other mixed heritages are possible to. I brought it up, as stated, as an anecdote to show design intent for lore, that did not make an official book.

Moving on though as this not being particularily productive- has the lore question been answered or needs to be restated?

Is the question 'will they use the term 'half-elf' or 'half-orc' in the lore going forward, even if not represented mechanically?'

thorn mountain
#

also, thanks everyone for your thoughts.

modest badger
#

Yeah, it's a bit hard to speculate and we'll need more books, but Forge of the Aritficer uses the term 'Half-elf' even if it's in context of it not being the preferred term. Khoravar however have never liked that term, even in earlier editions, because as a people they're mixed-elven-human going way back.

golden canyon
#

I would think that if there was a term for them that's not half-elf, half-orc, or whatever there would be NPCs in the would that would still refer to them as half-elves. Especially commoners, guards, dockhands, barkeeps, etc.

grim siren
#

I do know in the new book somebody who has been a half elf the majority of their publication history I believe was changed to a full elf. I can't remember who off the top of my head as I'm away from my books. But I do know that some lore is being updated in that fashion. Could have been an oversight though

golden canyon
#

Seems a bit ham-fisted to do that honestly.

#

Was it a sourcebook?

grim siren
#

I believe it was the two new forgotten Realms books. I can't recall which one it was. I'll have to do some researching when I get home and I will update and or redact

golden canyon
#

Ok I will flip through them later. If it's something that is just a descriptor of the character in a stat block it can be overlooked, but if it was an actual story reason for it (something magical, a death and resurrection, etc) that would be interesting to discover.

modest badger
#

Ah, found her! Kessla!

golden canyon
#

I find the removal of the gods as being major players in the updated FR books to be interesting. Many regions rely heavily on the worship and support of deities to give them hope / protect them / etc, and with that impact being reduced it would be interesting to see how people react in story.

golden canyon
grim siren
#

The wiki might not be up to date. Those books did just come out a month ago

modest badger
#

Yep in Volo's Guide to the Dalelands (2e) p. 90 she is 'Kessla, a half-elven retired minstrel' and runs the Red Rock Inn in Daggerfalls.

In Adventures in Forgotten Realms (5e) it's "The only inn in town is the Fallsview, but an elf musician named Kessla (Medium, Neutral Good Performer Maestro) runs the Red Rock Tavern."

#

There might be other cases, but that's one I know of.

grim siren
#

I'm surprised that they didn't mention half elves in the book as being a thing, especially considering that forge the artificer which was supposed to come out before does mention them but gives them a specific name.

golden canyon
#

Ok so no story reason for the change. Got it.

modest badger
#

I mean, that's not uncommon across editions and changes like this. Magic-Users becoming Sorcers, Wizards, Warlocks so on. Elves becoming Eladrin. It happens.
Although little surprised they didn't describe her as mixed human-elven heritage or the like, but note to use elven stats or such.

Kessla is also a very minor NPC. I'm trying to recall if we've seen anything yet with more known NPCs.

golden canyon
unkempt merlin
#

whereas in most others they are really just mentioned as ""byproducts"" of elven and/or human societies

modest badger
#

We have Aglarond in Forgotten Realms, but I don't think it's been mentioned since 2008.

unkempt merlin
#

meanwhile the Khoravar well, share a name with the primary continent of Eberron

#

(they are named after it due to their origins there)

golden canyon
#

Half-elves are more than just "byproducts". Some live in human dominated lands, some in elven ones, and some live in lands where they have built a culture all their own.

unkempt merlin
grim siren
#

True, but giving them a name would not have been a bad thing. I don't think if the issue is the term half elf then I don't think anybody would have really really complained about a new proper noun being used

thick sentinel
#

I know we have these "how to fit X in Y setting" talks, but I wanted to bring up I3-5 Desert of Desolation and its intended location in Faerun, and I know the answer will likely be "it doesn't matter" or "it's wherever you put it" or "TSR never said specifically where", but I'm hoping there's some secret knowledge or a nod in Dragon magazine or someone important said something at a conference once

So where is I3-5 supposed to be? Near Mulhorand is half the answer, but still unclearly

#

If this conversation devolves into talking about Kara-Tur again, I'm actually quite pleased with that possibility

dusky wharf
#

Which is kind of frustrating because it's a very material change. The presence of half elves in the Dales, rather than just humans and elves, was a noteworthy thing

#

Changing those characters to just be "human" or "elf" ends up erasing a very important part of their story. And that's before we get to key heroes like Tanis from Dragonlance

#

I really hope they can come up with some way to update things to incorporate characters (player or NPC) of diverse heritage. I'm all for it being done with care and consideration but just erasing them is worse in my view than using outdated/potentially offensive terminology.

full aurora
#

In MToF/MTF, there's mentions of cults that worship archdevils such as Asmodeus

Is it usually forbidden by law in Faerun to worship evil beings like archdevils or the Dead Three for example? I know Baldur's Gate has a messy history with Bhaalists, but where do devils stand in this? Is it socially acceptable to have churches established for worshipping evil gods, or does Faerun society force them to only exist as cults?

modest badger
# thick sentinel I know we have these "how to fit X in Y setting" talks, but I wanted to bring up...

South East Faerun, Hordelands, Raurin (The Dust Desert)
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Raurin
You can find some official World Maps of FR that include this region.

Forgotten Realms Wiki
Raurin

Raurin (pronounced: /ˈrɔːrɛn/ ROAR-en[4]), known as the Dust Desert and the Desert of Desolation, was once the center of the ancient empire of Imaskar, but it was transformed into a wasteland in...

modest badger
# full aurora In MToF/MTF, there's mentions of cults that worship archdevils such as Asmodeus ...

From what I know, it can very much depend on region and the specific evil god.

SCAG has this:

For instance, although worship of Talona—like that of many evil gods—is forbidden in Waterdeep, this prohibition extends only to the creation of a temple and the presence of her priesthood within the city. Individual citizens or families who revere Talona might be viewed as misguided, but they aren't taken into custody or punished as long as they obey the laws of the city.

Individuals might also worship (or least respect and give offering to) evil gods to ward off their wrath. So it might not be 'evil' to do so. However organised churches around the matter might be more focused on doing their deities will rather than appeasing them, which is how you might get laws like the above one.

As for Asmodeus, SCAG addresses that too, but too lengthy to quote. Essentially worship of Asmodeus became open after the spellplague, as the devil seemed to offer stabiltiy and answer gods couldn't in that confusing time. Devils also play a normal part in FR afterlife- in the fugue plane when awaiting for your soul to be judged or claimed, devils might offer you a way out same as celestials might take you away to their deities realm. So... why not get a jump start on that offer now? Some common folk might also treat him as your normal evil deity and give prayer/offerings to ward him off or beg him to ignore your sins so on- or to beg him for something, some deal or wish.

Temples are rare, but the faith still exists.

full aurora
#

Ah I get it, so basically if the evil god's will is against the law, the region could easily just shut down its expansion (but never snuff it out completely because it isn't breaking the law)?

#

Which may lead to temples being rare in general despite having a sizable following

grim siren
merry rune
#

I think that might be because maps are meant to represent general things, not specific colours

#

A cherryblossom forest would probably be shown green on these big maps anyway

jagged apex
#

though mainly to avoid their wrath, like Umberlee and Auril for example

merry haven
#

Question on my mind:

With queer and neurodivergent characters being introduced as more part of canon / in-game community as part of latter 2014 and more 2024 Edition content, I'm wondering how specific lore aspects were updated to reflect these?

I recall this discussion in 2023, and the sensory specific character descriptions were cool to me:
https://www.dndbeyond.com/posts/1605-interview-with-d-d-designer-makenzie-de-armas#TheWordAutisticIsntUsedintheBook

Such as Drow lore compared to 2014 Lolth hyper-specific male-gaze interpretations of their religions or societies'?

I know that the combat wheelchair content is community made, with other books trying to have prosthetics or different tech / magic levels to help cope with disability factors?

Correct me if I'm wrong, as I've not deep-dived into the 2024 lore outside of mechanics / character creation differences.

jagged apex
#

they don't have to be introduced in the lore to be a thing, at most just means we have actual examples, in universe they are people just like you and me

#

and things like prostetics and wheelchairs being out of place are not, people mistakenly assume dnd is strictly medieval fantasy but that is flat out false

merry haven
#

Sure, I understand that.

Moreso I'm thinking from the perspective of sensitivity writers, or highlighted more as part of the default settings or NPCs in particular?

I assume its overall getting more diverse as part of a general trend, like reducing the amount of gender or racee / species essentialism going on.

For sure!

jagged apex
#

heck one drow city even has well known magical prostetics they are known for

merry haven
#

That's neat

#

I'm catching up on the newer stuff, and it's been a bit - plus I've been used to homebrew setting games or collaborative worldbuilding a homebrew setting for a game.

I'm not super experienced with modules or the "canon settings" I suppose. /shrug

feral lintel
#

Calimshan has a whole section on how they provide prosthetics for those who need it

jagged apex
#

that is something that is by no means universally defined, never has been

merry haven
jagged apex
#

besides even if you use an established setting nothing stops you from making changes as your own take on the setting or for the sake of the people who you play with, and often the things people assume are out of place, are objectively not out of place when you actually look into the lore and history of those settings

merry haven
#

Right

jagged apex
#

in short, these ideas are not as new as you might think

#

just because we had little to no possible examples prior, does not mean they never existed, especially since ed greenwood works on his og version of the setting daily and the one we see in published materials is an adaptation of his setting

dusky wharf
# merry haven Sure, I understand that. Moreso I'm thinking from the perspective of sensitivit...

So at least as far as the setting in general, queer characters were always part of it even before TSR bought it from Ed Greenwood, it's just that the company at the time played down those aspects due to their concerns about reactions, the Satanic Panic etc. And a lot of that sort of subtly still existed, just that they wouldn't mention that this NPC and that NPC were lovers/partnered/etc.

#

Yes, what @jagged apex said 😄

jagged apex
#

heck you can even ask ed greenwood himself, he is often good at answering people's questions about the realms

dusky wharf
#

well, in terms of the Forgotten Realms at least.

jagged apex
#

yeah, hense why i specified the setting, and with eberron we have keith baker

dusky wharf
#

Keith is also great, too

merry haven
#

I heard that Eberron is great, yeah.

jagged apex
#

basically with how many settings have more than just us humans, so while this sadly has made things like persecutions and other biases exist is also why there is not really uniform views on things that are more abstract, heck depending on the editions some arguably always had them in some form or another, like how the original ancient primordial elves of corellon's blood use to be able to shapeshift as fluidly and freely as their god

calm crest
#

There's also been queer male drow as part of Greyhawk since 1e.

#

Elminster himself is somewhat famously genderfluid.

feral lintel
#

Ed Greenwood said that the sexuality in FR is bisexual at base or something, right?

jagged apex
#

and each species sometimes have specific cultures that view things differently, like at least to my knowledge though not sure how recent it is, the lizardfolk hold a great degree of religious respect to those born with both gender parts, do to their believes behind their patron deity and the history of it they have passed down from generation to generation as they don't have written records at least in the realms

jagged apex
dusky wharf
jagged apex
#

though if i recall correctly, mystra turning some of her chosen, even if they are male, to females is a rather normal thing to better be attune with magic, as the wiki puts it "While Elminster enjoyed his time spent as a thief in Hastarl, he rededicated his efforts to seeking revenge upon the magelords for the death of his family. When he ran afoul of the magelords' temple in the city, El was overcome by hostile guardsmen and saved by Mystra herself. The Lady of Magic transformed him into a woman named Elmara to strengthen his bond with magic and to expand his understanding of the world. For a few years, "Elmara" served as a priestess of Mystra in Athalantar and beyond. After some time, Mystra appeared to El once again as Myrjala Talithyn and trained her in the ways of spellcasting. The two became dear friends, and fell in love with one another. Over time however, Elmara felt compelled to "reveal" to Myrjala his true identity as Elminster, and shared his quest to take back Athalantar from the malevolent magelords. As an avatar of Mystra, Myrjala of course was fully aware of El's shared identities." end quote

merry haven
#

Thanks for sharing

calm crest
#

Interestingly, much like Corellon, Elminster does not have specified pronouns in the DMG'24. As the only thing these two individuals have in common is historic genderfluidity, it seems to be a confirmation of such for the current lore.

merry haven
#

Nice

versed hare
#

There's a line in the new forgotten realms book about the gods basicly being above gender

jagged apex
#

makes sense, they are already beyond concepts like linear time and don't have physical bodies like us mortals

#

not to mention most gods can shapeshift as they please once of a certain level of power, so makes sense gender would be super easy to change on a whim if they wanted

honest steeple
#

New dnd game was announced and had some draconic text at the end, I decided to translate to and got “aesthastrics arythix clavex versex haurach versel” repeated three times. This is gibberish to me but does it mean anything to anyone else here?

pallid flower
honest steeple
#

Ok fair was just wondering if it was an actual spell from one of the books or modules or smthn

merry rune
#

versel is powerful and versex seems to be the same word family

#

haurach is fate

#

empowering/overpowering a powerful fate?
as in a fate very certain being either denied or ensured

#

aesthyr is woman, and aesthyri is women

#

so aesthastrics should be something related to women maybe femininity or womanhood or womankind as in all women

feral lintel
#

iirc... it was kinda said that RQueen was involved?

merry rune
#

aryte is war and arytiss is warrior

#

so something like

#

warriors of womankind?

#

or maybe strics refers to adjective but i doubt that

#

lastly i find nothing on clavex i think but there are some vaguely similar words

#

uclar and its associated mean desire etc

#

claxsp means renounce

#

perhaps its a coven

#

"warriors of the coven renounce the fate of power"
or
"warriors of the coven desire to overpower an impactful fate"

#

bit of guesswork but anything beyond that is makebelief

#

@honest steeple little gibberish analysis

#

actually these words seem to be third party but im surprised by finding all these words in there and it is based on dnd so

#

maybe there is more to this maybe old books or something that the wiki didnt catch

#

there are many links so i feel like this might be onto something

split crystal
#

So I got a question about Drow Noble Houses

#

So we know they cannot have more than two sons

#

But what happens to those two sons if a sister becomes the Matron Mother? Do they have their own rank? Move to somewhere else?

#

Because they are no longer sons of the matron mother but siblings

jagged apex
#

but far as i know there is no real impact on the males of the house

#

not even aware of the two sons thing nor sure where it is from if anywhere

dusky wharf
#

That is, it gets mentioned as a thing in relation to Drizzt.

jagged apex
#

that may be why i don't know about it, as while i am aware of the drizzt novels and some of the events, i have not actually read them and know of them via the impact they had on the wider lore of the realms

storm dagger
split crystal
#

Not the point or meaning of that statement

#

I’m asking what happens to them if their sister replaces the matron mother

storm dagger
#

They generally keep their current position unless one of the younger gen proves they can replace them

split crystal
#

Like the priestesses usually get assassinated to get rid of competition, what happens to the two men?

#

I see

storm dagger
#

Sisters also tend to stick around too depending on the Matron’s read of them

jagged apex
#

the sister moving up and taking out the previous matron tends to not have any impact on the potion of the other siblings far as i know

jagged apex
#

as the wiki puts it as being cited from TSR's "The Drow of The Underdark" page 14, "After them came male officers, including the weapon master, House wizard, and patron (the matron's consort), although these positions could be combined. Then came the other male members of the House (war-leaders, who answered to the weapon master, and House mages, subservient to the House wizard). Below the non-officer males (who were normally of the House's bloodline) were servants and slaves. Positions were normally sorted by age but were ultimately not set in stone, and could be changed at the matron mother's whims" end quote

#

so basically nothing happens to the sons unless the matron mother says otherwise

modest badger
#

Yeah as far as I'm aware the 'Two sons only' was for Drizzt's story and never seemed to be strictly followed anywhere else in the lore.

Also, this Candlekeep forum post might be of interest and is about the siblings of Matron Mothers- that's a great forum to go digging through for older edition lore.

unkempt merlin
#

I believe the 2 sons thing is at the very least brought up in BG3

#

Where its made mention (without spoilers) that third sons are killed

#

(how that would affect anything with a sister rising in rank is not made mention though)

modest badger
#

Also, from what I recall while the Third Son was sacrificed (if both previous sons were still alive) to honor Lolth, they could then continue to have sons afterwards.

Jarlaxle was a Third Son, but his sacrifice went wrong and the Second Son died instead. But more were born after.

  1. Gromph
  2. Doquaio (Killed instead of Jarlaxle)
  3. Jarlaxle
  4. Dantrag (Lived for a long while before being killed by Drizzt)
  5. Berg'inyon. (Was Trained by Dantrag)
    At least four were alive at the same time. I don't know if there were any more unnotable sons running around.

It seems it's more tradition that the third living son gets sacrificed, but also Lolth can be appeased with another sons death too. After that, have as many as you like.

#

As far as I know as well, Baenre also swapped matrons multiple times after Yvonnel, their mother, was usurped. It's a bit hard to say what was supposed to happen at this point to the brothers, as Jarlaxle and Berg'inyon were of Bregan D'aerth (so renegades but not depending on the time) and Gromph is a special case being as powerful as he is.

jagged apex
#

from what i read on the wiki even they even saw the murder of a matron as a sign of disfavor from Lolth.

#

so at least according to that logic, if the matron does get usurped via good ol' assassination is because lolth didn't like how you were doing things, whether this actually was the case or just superstition, idk

#

honestly neither would surprise me given lolthian society is basically structured as "organized chaos" for lack of a better term

modest badger
#

To make things a bit more confusingly lore wise as well, a lot of FR lore is based on the Salvatore books, where as other Drow lore books at the time were typically meant for Greyhawk.

4e also changed a lot of lore and 5e we're seeing snippets of lore from different settings. A lot of the lore we go on for Drow tends to be Faerunian lore from around 2e-3e, with some very drastic changes in 4e.

jagged apex
#

no surprise there, 4e was basically the new 52 of dnd lore, kind of just did it's own thing ignoring or not really doing research of prior lore from my understanding

#

like i think only the things that people actually liked about the 4e lore were carried over, and even then they were still reworked to fit with the new lore, my favorite example of this personally is the raven queen, everything else i believe simply is only 4e and otherwise not being reintroduced for the foreseeable future far as i can tell at present at least

#

though in regards to 5e drow lore, their setting agnostic lore at present simply reads to quote the phb 2024, "Drow typically dwell in the Underdark and have been shaped by it. Some drow individuals and societies avoid the Underdark altogether yet carry its magic. In the Eberron setting, for example, drow dwell in rainforests and cyclopean ruins on the continent of Xen’drik." end quote, so at least as of the most recent setting agnostic lore, the unifying force is either the underdark or the magic associated with such a place is what largely destinguishes them from other elves without going into setting specific lore

storm dagger
#

She was succeeded by her daughter Triel.

#

But Triel was usurped by her younger sister Quenthel

timid tendon
storm dagger
#

Quenthel was not particularly respected as Matron and notably had no power over her older brother Gromph for a long time

#

She eventually had some of her mother’s memories inserted into her via a mind flayer

modest badger
#

Although one more recent source we have for the 'Rule of Two' is 'Sleep Sound' a poem written by Salvatore and used by WotC which includes the line "Brother, I say, for there can only be one. If there were two, there couldn't be you."

But as this seems to be almost aimed at Drizzt, the Third Son, it might not rule out the above situation of later sons being raised.

YouTube
Crit Academy
"Sleep Sound" | The Legend of Drizzt - D&D Animated Short

New Animated Dungeons & Dragons Short. Narrated by Benedict Cumberbatch and written by R.A. Salvatore, Sleep Sound reintroduces the origin story of the iconic Dungeons & Dragons hero, Drizzt Do’Urden.

▶ Play video
jagged apex
#

plus a poem is usually anything but direct or blunt, all the issues of abstract and interpretation that comes with arts of any sort

storm dagger
#

This let her be a stronger ruler, but ||eventually the weird memories and her current experience led her to abandon worship of Lolth and leave the city in exile with a bunch of others. The current Matron mother is her youngest sister Sos’umptu who was the least ambitious of the siblings||

modest badger
#

Right- I didn't want to get too deep into spoilers.

#

Just using that example to show that 1) More than 2 sons have co-existed at one time in a noble house and 2) Upon the Matron being replaced by a daughter, the sons survived (although also noting that the context of the surviving sons (Jarlaxle and Gromph at the time I believe) makes it hard to say what would be usual)

drowsy fossil
#

Is dark urge canon in bg3

feral lintel
#

BG has its own continuities

drowsy fossil
#

Because you played as bhaals chosen in the other ones so I assumed so

feral lintel
#

gods arent limited to one chosen. mystra has had several

storm dagger
#

Nothing is a explicitly canon about BG iii other than it’s events happened in some way

calm crest
#

There is a Dark Urge in the events of BG3, regardless of whether they are played or not.

unkempt merlin
#

^

modest badger
#

Remember to avoid spoilers. I know this can be hard when discussing lore, but if specifically going into #baldurs-gate-3-spoilers might need to move to there.

north vault
#

It's an actual lore thing. She's said to have more chosen than is usual among gods

timid tendon
#

which Mystra was this btw

simple rose
#

true, haven't there been like 4 variations?

north vault
#

Alright so:
First was Mystryl, "daughter " in a sense of Selune, goddess of the moon and light, and Shar, goddess of darkness and the night. She died due to Karsus' folly millenia ago. Mystryl was rather lax in policy and... Well, her mothers are a moon goddess and a darkness goddess. An impulsive personality is expected.
Second was Mystra. A Netherese girl who caught the soul of Mystryl and became her reincarnation. She changed the rules to prevent a redo of Karsus' folly, had a lot of chosen, and at one point even decided to have seven demigod daughters to be her chosen so she could have chosen that would be molded from birth. She died during the Time of Troubles, killed by the god Helm
Third was Midnight. A wizard from the Sword Coast who during the time of troubles was granted the job of Mystra. She decided to take the name to make the transition easier. She was killed by Cyric, who was once her companion when they were both mortal, and Mask. She was then resurrected by Elminster.

north vault
timid tendon
#

mmhmm

sullen ocean
#

Guys, quick and noobish question on devil's lore; do their contracts really have to be tricky in nature always?

storm dagger
#

No but they generally are

#

But there generally will be few strings attached if they are just promised the soul

unkempt merlin
dusky wharf
jagged apex
grim siren
tight wren
#

I swear I've heard of dragons that "absord" other dragons (their counterparts in other universes? or smth) to attain greater power but i tried to find information in the wiki but couldn't find anything. anyone know what i'm talking about?

jagged apex
#

it is from fizban's the concept of dragons and their echos

#

is the first chapter of the book/the introduction, where it says Dragonsight

#

you likely can't find it on the wiki because nobody on the wiki team has gotten around to adding it to what ever pages the info would be relevant to

jagged apex
# tight wren I swear I've heard of dragons that "absord" other dragons (their counterparts in...

to partially quote the section that details this, "Dragons who develop dragonsight amass knowledge that spans the Material Plane, making them among the foremost experts on worlds beyond their own. With time, dragonsight can expand beyond passive awareness to allow active communication between a dragon’s incarnations. Some ancient dragons with well-developed dragonsight begin to weave grand plans that involve coordinating activities across multiple worlds, culminating in cosmos-shaking events.
As one example, tales are told on multiple worlds of the Material Plane regarding the red dragon Ashardalon. Less widely understood, though, is the fact that as one Ashardalon developed his dragonsight, he concocted a scheme to preserve his existence by consuming his echoes on other worlds. All these different Ashardalons thus became a single, immensely powerful greatwyrm that fed on soul energy—and that prevented souls from incarnating into newly born creatures across the worlds." end quote

tight wren
jagged apex
twilit creek
#

With the multiverse it opens the door to other multiverses right? Like say I wanted tmnt to meet vecna through the multiverse lore wise could it happen

zenith dust
#

You can do whatever you like yeah

#

As per written lore there is precedent for wacky things like people from the real world going to the forgotten realms etc

jagged apex
#

heck, one hilarious example involves polka music coming from our earth to waterdeep

jagged apex
#

also what else would the multiverse open to if not the multiverse, kind of hard to have it but also not have it XD

stable fox
#

I've got a bummer I'm working on now, which involves a feature-specific elemental summon. Thus i've got a question; i know elementals come from the elemental planes (i think, just guesstimating), but is there any precedence in established lore about elementals revolving around more abstract concepts rather than a location within the multiverse.

namely, seasonal elementals. could there be effectively a Winter Elemental, or would it be reskinned Ice Elemental in question?

im asking for cohency in homebrew

rose bough
calm crest
#

There are Demi-Elemental Planes, like the Demiplane of Electromagnetism.

stable fox
#

i dont even know where i should begin to look, truth be told. that, and i dont own all the official material

stable fox
calm crest
#

Historically, the early model of the planes and elementals presented in an OD&D era Dragon magazine had planes and elementals of things like Beginnings, Darkness, Pain, etc.

rose bough
#

In 2e there were nature elementals, which were made up of all 4 elements, which shows its possible for elementals to take on something more conceptual than just strictly the elements

calm crest
#

There are also an infinite number of demiplanes, which shift and change.

stable fox
#

oh wow. this is an interesting topic ive uncovered, it seems. this sheds insight to my question in a mighty fashion. thank you.

ill have to find some info on the earlier editions, given "pain elemental" sounds far too metal to ignore

calm crest
#

The DEPoEM was absorbed into the Quasi-Elemental Plane of Lightning, which was absorbed into the Elemental Chaos.

#

Probably all the weird elementals are from the Elemental Chaos.

rose bough
#

You could also just say that there exists a specific group of elementals, pulled from various planes, which themselves are divided into four, that enact the seasons. It doesn't sound farfetched imo

calm crest
#

Ravenloft had unique elementals, for reference.

stable fox
#

im not familiar with ravenloft. is that strahd? or am i mixing names again

calm crest
#

Pyre, grave, blood, and mist. And a death energon.

stable fox
#

no, ravenloft isnt strahd. strahd is in barovia?

calm crest
#

Ravenloft is another name for the Domains of Dread as a whole, which is where Barovia is located in the Shadowfell.

stable fox
#

ah, i see. i wasnt entirely mistaken to begin with, but i corrected myself to a mistake

calm crest
#

There are also the elemental-adjacent energons and dimensionals.

#

Energons come from the Positive and Negative Energy Planes, and time dimensionals come from the Plane of Time.

stable fox
#

energons ive not heard of before, but i suspect theyre made of energy and act as a people or group of sentient beings

#

ah, you answered before i could finish typing. thank you

rose bough
#

There were also shadow elementals, from the shadowfell. Ergo i think elemental just means "being that embodies the elements of a place" and if shadow is a core element of that place, then elementals there might be made of shadow. The feywild would certainly have realms defined, perhaps even elementally, by seasons. You could say they're from those domains of delight or areas.

Wildly speculative and pretty much new lore but just had a thought that kept going

stable fox
#

im all for homebrew, so ill likely toy with this concept

calm crest
#

There are also Ice Para-Elementals, which Cryonax rules over.

stable fox
#

im starting to think there is an elemental of everything, which i suppose isnt too far-reaching if there is an infinite number of demiplanes

rose bough
#

I also think Thanazrael's plane of time mention is a good shout. I feel like nature+time=seasons is pretty reasonable and season elementals could be the result of nature elementals or the classic four crossing into the plane of time

calm crest
#

Absolutely. It could also be what happens to time dimensionals that draw multiple time travel copies of themselves to the Feywild and get stuck.

rose bough
#

and like, whose to say that time elementals aren't like... born from time? like everytime a new moment happens, a time elemental is created. Thus there exists, like, solstice elementals, created when the material plane passes over that day. And so there's tons of seasonal elementals that generate to represent the seasons of the material. Moments in time frozen, and given material form. idk

stable fox
#

this has been most fun to discuss. i thank both of you for sharing your knowledge, and providing great ideas

jagged apex
jagged apex
#

in published materials at least, they are literally just pure time essence in the form of a sentient entity

jagged apex
jagged apex
white oasis
#

hi

jagged apex
magic bridge
#

Do Perytons specifically use their talons to rip out the heart or? Seems a little counterintuitive

jagged apex
# magic bridge Do Perytons specifically use their talons to rip out the heart or? Seems a litt...

at least in the forgotten realms, back during 3e and far as i know no newer lore contradicts it, so presumably it is the norm "Whenever an opponent was helpless or unconscious—whether from crippling, paralysis, etc.—a peryton would attempt to rip the heart from the victim with its claws. It would immediately consume the organ." as the wiki states quote from "Monster Compendium: Monsters of Faerûn"

magic bridge
#

I am curious why not use their already sharp maw and just rip it out with that?

#

what are they, stupid?

jagged apex
#

quite the opposite

#

their claws are deadly and more agile, plus using their face and their maw would put them in greater danger as lime most creatures, the brain is a vital organ, located in the skull

calm crest
#

Their claws offer greater precision than their mouth. Wouldn’t want to destroy the heart before they can consume it.

magic bridge
#

I see

#

that's fair actually

#

thanks!

jagged apex
#

so the snapping jaws are more likely to be used to slay or cripple the prey or their allies so it can get at the heart

magic bridge
#

Yeah I getcha

#

thanks

jagged apex
#

plus they believe the "perfect heart" has to be eaten fresh, if you damage it or crush it, then it was more or less pointless

magic bridge
#

curious what happens if they consume a dragon heart

jagged apex
#

so downside for their victims, they will rip it our of you while you are still alive, you'd likely die not long after though

jagged apex
magic bridge
#

fair

jagged apex
#

they specifically are after human hearts, not to mention dragons are far more powerful predators than they, so drastically more dangerous to even try to harm

magic bridge
#

Meant like a dying dragon

#

Like if they would stumble upon a dying dragon if they would feast on it's heart

#

and if they did would the power just make them explode or something

#

Just a passing by thought yk?

jagged apex
#

at most they will go to other humanoids, but they would not even bother with the heart of any other creature type

magic bridge
#

got it

jagged apex
#

some of them even believe it has to be human, as detailed on the wiki i linked earlier under it's ecology

magic bridge
#

mhm

jagged apex
#

and their eating of hearts is more so to enable them to reproduce, they historically can sustain themselves on other foods, such as vegetation, rabbit, deer, and other such meats

magic bridge
#

is that like a curse or

calm crest
#

It is a curse, yes.

magic bridge
#

ty

jagged apex
#

the reasoning behind is kind of a mix between desire to ascend to a higher form of existence or just to enable reproduction, depending on the lore you are reading, so there is both a biological reason and a more for lack of a better term spiritual reason behind their desire to consume human hearts

magic bridge
#

Fascinating.

calm crest
#

There’s a random table of theories as to why they compulsively collect hearts in 2024: to be granted wishes, to be restored to their pre-peryton human or elven form, to reproduce, or to open a rift to the Lower Planes.

magic bridge
#

I guess hearts are special in DnD

jagged apex
jagged apex
jagged apex
calm crest
#

Their very existence is theorized to be a cruel creation of the good-aligned gods (perhaps making them akin to eyes of fear and flame).

jagged apex
#

their setting agnostic lore to quote the part thanazrael didn't mention is "Perytons are monstrous predators that hunt people—particularly humans and elves—in favor of all other prey. With the bodies of mighty avian scavengers and fanged, stag-like heads, perytons use ambush tactics to dive-bomb travelers. Strangely, the shadows they cast resemble humanoid silhouettes. This supernatural oddity lends credence to stories that perytons are cursed humans or elves, or that they arise from carrion birds that feed on the corpses of villains." end quote

#

so even then it is left ambiguous if all of them across the multiverse are cursed victims or not, but sure has some traits that seem to lead to those theories in universe

#

so if you wanna find out, you could try asking one, but even if they are willing to answer, and even if you manage to understand what they are saying, i doubt you will be living long enough to do anything with the information ^^;

#

cuz historically they do understand common

calm crest
#

Their original lore in 1e is that they’re possibly magical experiments that expressly require hearts to reproduce. Therein they are of human intelligence and possess their own language.

magic bridge
#

Interesting...

#

So would dragonborn be safe from them? As they aren't technically human?

jagged apex
#

they are humanoids, so would not surprise me, plus they may just be hungry or any other reason they might attack a party

#

and technically is ambiguous what the dragonborn were before they became as they are now

#

that is partially why they use to have breasts in the case of the females prior to 2024, as it was not only a hold over from what they were before, but also still had a functional purpose in their biology, all be it different from what the likes of humans have, personally mildly annoys me that change, but it is what it is

magic bridge
#

Yea

jagged apex
#

but if instead of human you mean humanoid, yes dragonborn are

magic bridge
#

I'll just say my little anthro dragon would be attacked as he is humanoid on the virtue of being anthro, even if he is a dragon. Or something.

jagged apex
#

though in their latest lore, perytons prefer human and elven hearts, so they likely will go for them unless you get in their way

jagged apex
#

remember, this is just us answering what is in the published lore, is not something you have to adhere too unless you and your table wish to when playing your own games, the published lore is the default/norm, not the law

magic bridge
#

Table wise it would be silly to be immune to them anyway so he isn't

jagged apex
#

well they are intelligent creatures, and like any intelligent creatures they can have prefferences and personality traits as individuals

jagged apex
#

at least if there is an elf or human in the party/group

#

if not you are fair enough game

calm crest
#

Assuming the character in question is a Dragonborn and not a Dragon.

jagged apex
#

prefer is a matter of preference, it is a choice

magic bridge
calm crest
#

Then they would not be a Humanoid and thus outright immune to the heart-ripping.

jagged apex
#

well that is more so a matter for your dm, but if you get in the way or prove a threat, the peryton will still try to kill you

magic bridge
#

Yeah I should have mentioned that 2 months ago

#

Either way nobody died except the perytons so why am I worrying

jagged apex
calm crest
#

It just wouldn’t bother to take your heart if you’re properly a Dragon.

jagged apex
#

honestly the peryton would be very shocked since typically when you die shapeshifters tend to rever to their true form, and last i checked this is true for most dragons who have such abilities

#

but if the perytons were slain and nobody was killed, i see no real reason to worry, unless you are actively putting the others in such dangers

calm crest
#

Reverting to natural form is the default for shape-changers. Except for Sivak Draconians, which do the opposite.

magic bridge
#

My dragon only has his humanoid/anthro form if you're curious

#

Not really a topic for this channel though

jagged apex
#

last i checked most if not all draconians explode

magic bridge
#

I do love talking about him though!

calm crest
#

Baaz emit petrifying gas and turn to statues. Kapak dissolve into acid. Bozak explode into bone fragments. Sivak transform into their slayer if killed by an ogre-sized or smaller foe, combusting otherwise. Aurak go berserk, then turn into ball lightning.

jagged apex
#

gotta love those creatures with death burst effects, normally tend to only see them with elementals or some fiends, at least to my knowledge, is neat to see some prime material plane dwellers get in on that weaponized biological failsafe kind of thing, least in my opinion

calm crest
#

Sesk dehydrate and implode. Traag instantly rot.

calm crest
magic bridge
#

They sound cool yeah!

calm crest
#

The noble draconians seem to boringly just revert to their namesake magical energy.

#

Unlike the varied classic Takhisis draconians.

jagged apex
#

yeah, draconians are basically the closest thing the world of krynn has to dragonborn, at least physically, their nature is entirely unnatural and rooted in magics and otherworldly sources, as i recall supposedly Takhisis used the souls of her aspect Tiamat's abashai to corrupt the dragon eggs used in the the ritual to make her army of mortal draconic soldiers

magic bridge
#

Interesting...

calm crest
#

And due to her corruption of Paladine’s favored, the laws of Balance caused the chromatic eggs subjected to the process to be Good.

jagged apex
calm crest
#

Dreadnaughts are Sivaks. For some reason 5e decided to split their original AD&D death feature into two versions.

#

Because in 2e, they transform into their killer (as in SotDQ) or combust if they can’t (as in FTD).

jagged apex
#

oh, i did not realize, guess in the 5e continuity they are distinct in some way? like technically the sivaks are setting specific, so i guess the implication on some other worlds or since they can be from more than just silver dragons, that causes their death throw effect to change?

calm crest
#

(When I converted them to 5e’24, I gave them both conditional death abilities to make them truer to 2e.)

jagged apex
#

looking at the fizban entry, seems they are a broader offshoot/relative of the sivaks, like the sivaks are a specific iteration of the dreadnaughts, if that makes any sense

calm crest
#

Yeah, I don’t really know the lore implications. I’m guessing FTD just went with the mechanically simpler one for the setting agnostic version. There are some other arbitrary discrepancies there, like Draconian mental stats and what energy type Bozak use.

jagged apex
#

at least i think that is what they are trying to convey in the published materials, though not sure why they burst into flames other than as a call back to that older lore, since silver, blue, and sapphire dragons are not really associated with fire

calm crest
#

The 5e version of Dragonlance includes some extremely strange retcons, like ||randomly including robots in a historical civilization not known for construct use.||

jagged apex
#

i'd chalk that up to how each edition while continuing things, is also it's own iteration, kind of like how each series of ben10 basically had the universe changed from one version to the next despite it them being ment to be connected, so i think i could see it being similar to that, where like other cases some things that differ between the editions can differ either minorly or drastically

#

like the general big picture more or less looks the same, but you can find differences if you zoom in enough and look closely enough

#

or like how in time travel often one change can lead to a domino effect other other unintended changes, if that makes sense as an analogy