#dnd-lore

1 messages · Page 54 of 1

serene crater
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quick quetion but was it ever known if Miska the wolf spider and Lolth were allies or enemies? just trying to do some prep and wanted to see if I should throw an ally or obstacle in their way

iron saffron
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They're neither.

serene crater
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i see

iron saffron
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Lolth, being a goddess, tends to not bother with Abyssal politics.

drowsy wraith
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Do you you think that drow exiles might venerate Mishka considering his spider like countenance?

sharp owl
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It's not likely

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Drows don't venerate spiders because they're spiders, but because their connection to Lolth

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They don't venerate everything spider-like

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For example, driders

feral lintel
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Driders do have a specofic connotation ir meaning to their existence though, but yeah, just because its semi related to spiders doesnt mean they worship it

sharp owl
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Driders aren't venerated though, they're shunned

feral lintel
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Aye, thats what i meant by specific connotation to their existence, shouldve clarified, sorry

modest badger
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I know what Ti-Moth means.
Drow in earlier lore are described as venerating spiders in general, but driders are different because of their specific cultural connotations (Failing the trials). Mishka being a spidery, but a rival demon and male might means he gains some respect but not veneration or allegiance.

teal rock
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Do you guys think that your typical cleric of Asmodeus would sell their soul in order to become a cleric of Asmodeus.

jagged apex
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not really, it would be entirely unnecessary

modest badger
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Asmodeus doesn't need them to pledge their soul to him directly. He gets them anyway in most cases:

Unlike the other Lords of the Nine, Asmodeus has no quota of souls to fill. Any soul recruited by any denizen of the Nine Hells is also pledged in his name, and a cult dedicated to any other devil is also dedicated to him.

jagged apex
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especially if they worship him as their main deity like most clerics do with the gods they serve

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so selling their soul to their god just to serve them, kind of would be a case of "a hat on a hat" i believe the expression is?

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i mean to my knowledge there is nothing stopping them from doing so stated in the lore, but i can't think of a reason one would even think to do something so unnecessary

eager bay
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I guess this is a better place to ask than #dnd-rules . So, what do changelings look like in DND until they hit puberty and discover their shapeshifting abilities? Is it the assumed form of their birth parent? Does this change between the two books outlining them?

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I did read over ebberon, but I don't have full access to the monsters of the multiverse book. just stat stuff I could find.

iron saffron
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The changelings in Mot MM are Fey rather than Humanoid creature type. The playable races in MotMM are setting agnostic so there's little to no lore associated with them.

eager bay
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ah, I see. so it is wholly at the player/GM discretion?

iron saffron
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For MotMM, yes.

eager bay
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excellent, thanks! :)

woeful stump
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Please tell me someone has lore on Beshaba, the god of misfortune

feral lintel
woeful stump
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She is so f-ing cool but she doesn’t exist in the lore

hazy flower
crude blaze
woeful stump
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Yeah, but I’ve searched around and found like nothing. Just how she was created and that’s it. So I have to create her myself which is fun but I mean I want inspiration from some sort of source

jagged apex
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plenty more to her than just her creation myth/origin

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but one way to sum up her worship is very old testiment style, like auril, another evil goddess, it is basically "worship me or else!"

jagged apex
crude blaze
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Yeah, there's plenty of info out there, you just might need to do a deeper dive

jagged apex
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or look in the correct places

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some lore may be obscure or harder to find, but it still exists

crude blaze
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Kinda what I meant about needing to do a deeper dive, but yeah

iron saffron
eager bay
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I'd like to shore up my pitch over changelings, so I got a question. Is there any creature that is effectively a hybrid between 2 other creatures? Not talking about things like half-orcs, too different from both humans and orcs. I mean, a 2-armed 2-legged creature that literally has mismatched/mixed body parts?

unkempt merlin
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Only one that exists in 5e I can recall is simic hybrid.

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And that's from an mtg setting

iron saffron
eager bay
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Ah, that will do nicely! Thank you.

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Trying to make the case that I could mix or match body parts. Would rarely be used, but I do utilise that in the backstory (changing just their hand to a changeling one). The wording of changeling is vague, saying you can mimic races, but never saying anything about swapping those parts around.

iron saffron
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Changeling is specific to a playable race. They have a default natural look.

eager bay
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I know I discussed it earlier, but I realised, the rules say nearly nothing about it

iron saffron
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Rules =/= lore.

eager bay
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I know, I came here because I needed lore-help to find the creature. My issue dances that tightrope. :P

unkempt merlin
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None of the lore for changeling allows them to mix and match, even if mongrelfolk exist in their setting

Nor do the mechanics allow it whatsoever

iron saffron
eager bay
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I've asked in the rule channel again, I may not have explained myself the first time properly. Thanks for the help :)

jagged apex
proud granite
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In drakkenheim maybe?

unkempt merlin
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Not an official setting

jagged apex
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though honestly, lineages are kind of weird especially when trying to factor them into the lore, but such beings do exist and are used an npc in at least one story so they are part of the lore, even if is a rather unclear or messy place where they are in the character of Elise from "Van Richten’s Guide to Ravenloft"

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Drakkenheim, is 3rd party, that is why it is under the partnered content on dnd beyond

earnest sentinel
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Does anyone have an idea how the Concordant express in Automata might work when arriving to another plane?

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I mean , in the sense that there are stations in every plane.

jagged apex
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pretty much would likely be a multiversal vehicle for the public as we know that the beings of the planes are known to go to sigil for various reasons, the adventure it is part of might have details, but is pretty easy that there would be stations in every plane, as structures can be built there

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though i don't own the book it is from that contains that adventure so i can't really say for sure on that specifically, but there being stations on the various planes for it to go to would be the least complex part of the whole thing

jagged apex
# earnest sentinel Does anyone have an idea how the Concordant express in Automata might work when ...

it is briefly mentioned in the 5e planescape materials for the gate town, which seems to actually give a bit of an answer if you are not looking for something in ultra detail to partial quote "the Concordant Express, an interplanar train dutifully operated by modrons. The clockwork behemoth chugs along the planes, leveraging a network of portals to which the train functions as a key to deliver its cargo and passengers across the multiverse on a tight schedule. " end quote

feral lintel
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True dragons also include the other non-chromatic/metallic/gem dragons with six limbs that were re/introduced in Fizbans, right? Like Moon and Purple?

jagged apex
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true dragons don't historically have anything to do with their limbs, but most true dragons to my knowledge do have 6 limbs

feral lintel
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I was referencing the number of limbs to narrow down the search

jagged apex
feral lintel
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Gotcha, thanks once again Scarlet! Always a boon!

jagged apex
unkempt merlin
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It doesn't use the term true dragon but it does classify using the definition

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Although it extends true dragon a bit

jagged apex
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yeah like 5e dragon turtle kind of blurs the line between true and lesser dragons, though makes for a sort of interesting sort of missing link to the big ol' family tree of dragons in the 5e continuity one could argue

unkempt merlin
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Most of this book is concerned with the chromatic and metallic dragons described in the Monster Manual, as well as the gem dragons introduced in this book. These three families of dragons share a deeply magical nature tied to the mythic history of the Material Plane. A few other Dragons share many similar characteristics, and several of them are presented alongside the chromatic, metallic, and gem dragons in chapter 5. These include dragon turtles and faerie dragons, as well as the deep dragon and moonstone dragon introduced in chapter 6.

It should be clear throughout this book whether we're discussing a specific kind of dragon, the members of the three great dragon families, or all creatures with the Dragon type. But if you see the word "dragon" (not capitalized) and you're not sure, assume we mean chromatic, gem, and metallic dragons

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But primarily there's Dragon (type) dragon (three families, true dragons)

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How exactly stuff like turtles are included is a bit wishy washy, but they are at least acknowledged as being similar to true dragons

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To quote fizban

I know I didn't make dragon turtles, and Tiamat swears she didn't, so where did they come from? More importantly, why?

jagged apex
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clearly Fizban retains any sense of humor the king of good dragon's has, as in addition to being a bit silly, bits like that do give me a bit of a laugh or at least a chuckle

feral lintel
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Right, keep forgetting hes Bahamut

jagged apex
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well, an aspect of an aspect if memory serves

agile patio
iron saffron
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I would hypothesize that dragon turtles would be related lung dragaons (aka oriental/Chinese dragons) because Gygax based them on Chinese mythological dragon turtle (lung gui)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragon_turtle

feral lintel
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Yeah, dragon turtles are a thing in RL. They look more lion tho

agile patio
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And an aspect of Bahamut/Tiamat are more closely described as a clone instead of an aspect

iron saffron
jagged apex
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as for who made dragon turtles, possible candidate could maybe be Sardior, since we know he existed in the 5e continuity now, would have to have been before his death

unkempt merlin
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Deep dragons are explicitly called out as cousins of chromatic as well

feral lintel
jagged apex
unkempt merlin
feral lintel
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The dragons in Asian mythology are often celestial beings

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I wish we get Lungs one day

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At least in 5e

iron saffron
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Agree, I was very disappointed Fizban's didn't reintroduced lung.

feral lintel
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Such a missed oppurtunity

iron saffron
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Dragons appear in most real world cultures. Chinese/oriental dragons are treated very differently the European ones, who are treated more as monsters whereas the former are respected/revered as servants of heaven.

unkempt merlin
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Closest to lung is the Bakunawa, but only because its from a significantly closer region of the world irl

jagged apex
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well kara-tur do to the time it came out of is a bit touchy, they understandably are nervous of getting too into stuff from that setting, but maybe one day, via other materials, be they 3rd party/partner, charity, ect... we have gotten some serpentine dragons in more recent years

feral lintel
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Bukanawa is from the Philippines iirc

unkempt merlin
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Yep

iron saffron
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Fizban should have introduced more dragon types like the linnorn. The book was a bit of a let down...

feral lintel
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Gem dragons are cool, but i need moar

jagged apex
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but i imagine that the otther reason why we did not get them in fizban's was likely limited space, as far as i know often they have a limit of both pages and artwork that they are allowed to have in the book and that is why some things get cut sometimes

unkempt merlin
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Physically it is closer to a lung but like I said that's more a symptom of its irl proximity

feral lintel
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Aye. I keep confusing Chinese and Japanese dragons still... 😅

iron saffron
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Oooh, I want to look more into the bukanawa because my campaign is a pirate/sea based one.

jagged apex
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by the way, if we wanna try to narrow down who did make dragon turtles, technically there are other members of the draconic pantheon https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Draconic_pantheon#Members
though i feel is safe to assume Garyx did not make them, would be way off brand for him, being the draconic god of "fire, destruction, and renewal."

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honestly, most likely i feel is Io

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though if it was one of the other dragon gods, seems odd that he would not have named them and just made a remark of uncertainty

feral lintel
jagged apex
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sounds like a great hook for story potential, given we have moon/lunar dragons

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who literally live on moons

feral lintel
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God, dragon lore is amazing

jagged apex
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yeah, in and out of universe

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probably why they are almost universally, especially in dnd are one of the most powerful and awseome creatures, i mean they clearly earned being in the name of the game

iron saffron
feral lintel
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Perfect!

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Speaking of cultural drahons though, i know Jormungrandr/World Serpent is in DnD, but do we have Nidhogg?

jagged apex
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yes

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in the forgotten realms it is literally one of the names used to reffer to tendar the night serpent

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and i know they existed, probably as a seperate entity in other/older more norse/viking centric stuff

feral lintel
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Ic ic. Back to the dragon rabbit hole i go! Thanks for the fun convo guys!

jagged apex
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also, far as i know is the other way around, i know dnd has nidhogg, but never heard if it had Jormungander, far as i know it and the world serpent are not the same thing at least in dnd

iron saffron
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Yggrasil makes an appearence in the 3.5E campaign adventure, "Expedition to the Demonweb Pits"

feral lintel
fluid atlas
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Are there any other important mages like Mordenkainen, Elminster, Bigby, etc. that are less powerful?

jagged apex
jagged apex
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so at least the world serpent i am aware of from dnd has no connection, at least none that i am aware of or have heard ever being

feral lintel
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Ahhh, they gave Ouroboros to the World Serpent

jagged apex
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seems the midgard serpent might be a thing, at least if this source is credible, but the world serpent in relation to him is a title done in addition to his name, and is not simply reffer to as just "the world serpent" https://dungeonsdragons.fandom.com/wiki/Jormungandr

iron saffron
fluid atlas
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Thanks though, I’ll give that a read

jagged apex
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like Elminster is from the forgotten realms, as is Volo

iron saffron
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Volo is like a level 5 wizard but a Chosen of Mystra...

jagged apex
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still counts

feral lintel
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Isnt he also a bard?

jagged apex
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he is important for a reason he is not aware of

jagged apex
fluid atlas
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Volo is I guess technically a wizard

iron saffron
jagged apex
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but to my knowledge volo is not a proper bard, he has been known to sing, but is not really that good and does not use it to channel magic

feral lintel
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Ic Ic. I just faintly remem- oh, nvm, it was his MtG card that called him a bard

jagged apex
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mtg, making a common mistake, is funny cuz many people often mistake him for a bard if they are not familiar with his character, let alone what he actually is

feral lintel
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Yea, would not have realized otherwise XD

jagged apex
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like if you never looked into his character or stats, you could play dnd for years and odds are you'd still mistake him for a bard for one reason or another

fluid atlas
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Bardn’t

jagged apex
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you could say that Volo is a wizard with the heart of bard XD as he definitely acts like it

jagged apex
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but far as i know from ed greenwood's dedicate video on him, seems he was never conceived as a bard, so i think many assume so just cuz of his love of the theatrical and probably more likely just the way he dresses, as such cloving in general media and pop culture are heavily associated with bards and play writes and what not, though honestly i'd take that stereotype over the other one associated with bards any day of the week

fluid atlas
jagged apex
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you don't have to be a good at something for it to be your line of work, just ask Volo's fellow sages, especially Mordenkainen XD

feral lintel
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Speaking of which, i hear they be popping up again :3

jagged apex
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Volo or Mordenkainen?

feral lintel
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Mordy

jagged apex
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ah, yeah, as i recall him and a couple other popular, famous, powerful archmages are gunna be

earnest sentinel
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Did not knew it was in Keys from the golden vault.

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Thanks for the information

iron saffron
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Volo and Elminster are from Toril.
Mordenkaine, Bigby, and other famous archmages are from Oerth.

unreal blade
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which setting was the one that introduced firearms?

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I don't actually know

modest badger
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Guns have been in since 1e. Ray guns too.
In Greyhawk Murlynd is a Cowboy Paladin who travels dimesions and allows guns and gunpowder to be used on Greyhawk but only when near him. (Otherwise gunpower does not work in Greyhawk).

Ray guns can be found in crashed spaceships (which Greyhawk has at least two of I know, and hinted at a third).

unreal blade
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huh fun

jagged apex
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yeah contrary to what many assume, firearms and things like technology are not as out of place as people think

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also funnily one setting one might expect to have firearms, Eberron, canonically does not

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at least in the past that was the case, now that i think about it, this might not be true anymore given rising from the last war and what it says about artificers and proficiency with firearms in that book

unkempt merlin
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It is still true

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The proficiency is both not a setting thing (its mechanics) and also specifically says it's for settings with them

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Because they are not presented as a class just for eberron

jagged apex
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yeah, was largely going off memory

heady dew
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Sooo is SCAG the only recent depiction of faerun at large?

iron saffron
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As a sourcebook, yes, but there have been 5E campaign books that have taken place in Faerun as well.

heady dew
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ooooh ok tyty!

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any of them worth picking up for ocean content I want nasty aliens fron under the sea to attack the world c:

iron saffron
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Icewind Dale: Rime of the Frostmaiden, Baldur's Gate: Descent into Avernus, the two Waterdeep books, Tomb of Annihilation, Phandelver Below, etc.

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Personally if you want a more robust sourcebook on Faerun lore I would recommend the 3E Forgotten Realms Campaign Book.

heady dew
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Oh is the lore pretty static for the setting since then?

iron saffron
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Well, some lore got superceded with new lore in 4E and 5E.

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But the 3E Forgotten Realms Campaign Book is thicc and covers more stuff than any of the 4E and 5E FR related settting books.

heady dew
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oooooooh okay okay, yeah Scag has SOME stuff on other places but its like a paragraph per country/region and its a huge slog to get through

iron saffron
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SCAG is a book I personally wouldn't recommend.

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I found it took thin (159 pages) compared to the 3E FR book (320 pages)

heady dew
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yeah I know what you mean its so sparse on the good stuff it feels kinda hollow? if that makes sense?

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Thanks a ton for the help though I will look into the 3e book and maybe some of those adventures

iron saffron
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I also highly recommend follow Ed Greenwood on Youtube, Twitter, and his Discord server if you want to know more about Forgotten Realms lore (technically it's not official as he's not working for WotC any more).

grim siren
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Also take a look on DMsGUILD Ed has contributed to whole source books on lands like Rashemen, Mulhorand, and Thay

grand wyvern
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Halflings are just Hobbits right?

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Or is there some key difference I can't find?

feral lintel
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Copyright issues

grand wyvern
spark haven
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"small people" have existed in a huge variety of mythological canons

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Tolkien doesn't get credit

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But he did contribute to the current popular image of them

modest badger
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(Although yes, Halfling were heavily based on hobbits, to the point of being called hobbits in the earliest editions)

iron saffron
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Early in D&D's days Gygax used "hobbit" and then the Tolkien estate sued so he changed it to "halfling" (much like he changed things to ent to treant and mithril to mithral).

modest badger
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At this point now though, they have become more of their own thing and different to the Tolkien hobbits. But earlier edition rules (Such as being better at stealth or being good at throwing rocks, was 100% percent based on tolkien hobbits)

grand wyvern
feral lintel
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Lots of lore

iron saffron
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The B/X and 1E AD&D halfings were depicted to be barefoot with hairy feet.

modest badger
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Hin from FR don't have the furry feet, or other traits of hobbits. (I missed what channel we were in dndLol )
They're just both short peoples.

calm crest
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Oerth halflings and Mystaran hin do have furred feet, I believe, or at least some subspecies do.

iron saffron
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Halflings were depicted early on to be more like hobbits in that they like to live in peaceful vales and good food (their gods reflected this).

grim siren
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Hin is such a better name than halfling Blessed be Hin

calm crest
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Athasian halflings are quite distinct from Tolkienesque hobbits, however. They are psions and illusionists that have a habit of killing and eating outsiders.

modest badger
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I do like Hin as being a name you can see themselves using.

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There's of course cultural traits, but those would differ even within the same setting.
On a trait and physiology basis, they're both short but certain halflings in D&D have changed in mechanics and depiction as folk have mentioned.
Some settings do still have them be furry footed (Greyhawk at points).

And the different 'subraces' of halflings in D&D are based on the Tolkien hobbit ethnicities still.

obsidian gate
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and of course, Eberron Halflings spend their time riding dinosaurs

feral lintel
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Love eberron halflings

grand wyvern
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It's so interesting looking through their forgotten realms wiki page and seeing how their pictures have changed throughout the editions.

modest badger
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Tolkien having harfoots, stoors and fallohides and Greyhawk having hairfoots (Lightfoots), stouts, tallfellows.

grand wyvern
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So I went down a bit of a rabbit hole with this trying to figure out if an npc should be a gnome or Hin (definitely going to call them that now) and i'm not sure if i'm over thinking this or there is a clear reason to use one over the other.
(he is a traveling merchant. Son of a rising merchant family that the players can befriend)

modest badger
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That might be more of a #character-discussion topic.
Lore wise gnomes and halflings are very different. The only similarities are both being short. But that's like saying elf or human, because they're similar heights.

feral lintel
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Or goliaths and firbolgs, because theyre giantkin and tall

grand wyvern
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Oh I know they are different. I'm just not sure if they are different enough to matter in this NPC's case since the profession of traveling merchant isn't exactly exclusive to one group of people.

deep jetty
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Are all campaigns canon to the original Dungeons and Dragons story? What I mean by that, is every world connected in a single universe or multi-verse?

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If so, does this mean anyone could contribute to the lore of Dungeons and Dragons as a whole?

magic jackal
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No.

deep jetty
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What would be considered canon to the actual storyline of D&D?

iron saffron
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You make the lore at your own table.
This channel is only to discuss the official lore of official campaign settings.

deep jetty
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Oh! Sorry! I didn't know

iron saffron
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Canon is what's published by TSR/WotC.

deep jetty
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Okay, 😄

iron saffron
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Taps channel's sign:

Discuss WotC-published game settings, and the events and characters that shaped them. Wherever possible, please indicate which setting you're discussing: [Forgotten Realms]/[FR], [Eberron], [Dragonlance], etc.

obsidian gate
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dnd doesnt really have a "storyline". it has a multiverse containing different settings and planes of existence.

iron saffron
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Canon often changes between each edition (and sometimes even during editions).

deep jetty
magic jackal
# deep jetty Oh! Sorry! I didn't know

You don't need to apologize for not knowing things, but you should probably use the resources at your disposal (the internet) to do your own research and then ask clarifications later if you're still confused.

deep jetty
deep jetty
silent atlas
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What were some legendary dragon fights that happened in toril

magic jackal
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Not a Lore question.

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Discuss WotC-published game settings, and the events and characters that shaped them. Wherever possible, please indicate which setting you're discussing: [Forgotten Realms]/[FR], [Eberron], [Dragonlance], etc.
(That's the purpose of this channel)

inner path
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What race is Bigby in DnD 5e?

feral lintel
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Currently, a... Halfling?

unkempt merlin
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Gnome

magic jackal
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Source on that? I thought he was a Human lol.

silent atlas
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Bigbys glory to the giant say hes a gnome doesnt it?

magic jackal
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Yeah I'm asking where in the book it says that.

feral lintel
magic jackal
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Oh nevermind I found references to it in the Book.

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Yep, formerly a Human, reincarnated as a Gnome.

jagged apex
magic jackal
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I know, I just said I found it.

jagged apex
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well i was already typing and only hit enter shortly after you mentioned finding it, sorry i am not a faster typer

jagged apex
silent atlas
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Are there any notable genies in toril

jagged apex
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though they seem most heavily associated with Zakhara specifically in regards to any particular part of toril

silent atlas
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What about the ifreeti and dao

jagged apex
jagged apex
dark mason
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Can disguise self be used as a way to change clothes?
I am thinking of a character that is constantly changing their appearence. Especially their clothing.
How dependable is this spell and what are some of its limitations?
From flavor to combat

ionic rivet
dark mason
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Ah thanks!

glad canopy
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Can someone help me out with plasmoid lore?

jagged apex
glad canopy
jagged apex
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anything not contradicted by their 5e lore from 2e is still considered valid until contradicted if that also helps

static trench
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According to the EEPC, some genies are able to adopt mortal guise when traveling to the material plane. Are Efreet included?

sharp owl
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It says "some genies" without mentioning specific elemental alignments. So given Efreeti are genies, the answer would most likely be "some can"

static trench
calm crest
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The jann look almost indistinguishable from humans or half-elves by default, and the markeen’s whole gimmick is looking exactly like a specific human.

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So there are some instances of genies that naturally appear human, but others have had the magical ability to disguise themselves in the past.

iron saffron
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I wish the jann appeared in 5E.

feral lintel
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Jann?

iron saffron
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They're genies composed of all four elements rather one specific element. They're the weakest of the genie types. They often reside on the Material Plane than in the elemental planes.
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Janni

feral lintel
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ooh

jagged apex
# iron saffron I wish the jann appeared in 5E.

is possible that they do exist in the 5e continuity still, but to what extent we don't know as they are referenced in bg3 so they are at least apart of one version of the 5e forgotten realms continuity, so potential baby steps if we do get them later on in more detail/properly

iron saffron
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BG3 is its own continuity (I'm grateful that Larian are D&D lore nerds to include them).

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As mentioned before, unless 5E lore says otherwise past edition stuff "still exist." I'm not contesting that but rather I want to see an official update.

jagged apex
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same

static sinew
#

Besides overthrowing/ killing another god or gaining more followers, are there any other ways for a deity to increase their power? This is for the Forgotten Realms gods.

iron saffron
#

Ao has final say on promotions/demotions.

jagged apex
#

at least in forgotten realms

iron saffron
#

Gaining followers is the main way to increase a god's divine power/rank. Taking over another god's portfolio also increases their powers.

pine reef
iron saffron
#

No, it's not part of core D&D lore. BG3 is isolated unto itself.

jagged apex
#

deities can gain followers and a presence in other settings too

pine reef
#

Why not?

#

They're endorsed and were approved by the company.

iron saffron
#

Because it's Larian.

jagged apex
#

cuz it is a specific medium

iron saffron
#

The D&D movies, comic books, and video games are separate (however, back in 2E/3E the novels and comics were official canon).

feral lintel
#

They also took liberties with some things

jagged apex
#

there is no 1 continuity, there are MULTIPLE continuities in dnd, 5e is no different

iron saffron
#

It's like the MCU movies are separate (but related to) the Marvel Comic comics' continuity.

jagged apex
#

even though is ment to exist along side it, another universe, at least that was the original plan in that case

#

the stuff in bg3 is not confirmed canon to the published continuity of 5e until it is refferences in official materials

#

such as adventures, lore books, ect...

spark haven
# pine reef Why not?

Same reason novels are their own isolated canons/"timelines" within the larger universe

jagged apex
#

until then it is just one continuity onto itself and anything it says it specifically is within the same continuity of

spark haven
#

A story that makes for exciting tabletop play isn't necessarily the same story that makes for exciting novels, and you don't really want to just mush all of thesse continuities together

iron saffron
#

TSR/WotC got out of hand with "canon" that were published a lot of questionable quality comics and novels in the 1990s and 2000s. With 5E, WotC wanted to limit what was considered "canon."

#

For example, the only way to know what happened with the Time of Troubles cataclysm that occured between 1E and 2E was to read the novels instead actually playing modules for your PCs to experience the major event first hand.

jagged apex
#

the adventures would at best be one timeline of what could have been

#

the published continuity is basically that of what one could arguably call the main timeline when referring to a specific setting's history

feral lintel
#

They also dont have a true canon because every table's campaigns end differently

jagged apex
#

and this is also why from one edition or another there are major differences in some cases for creatures, such as kobolds, phoenixes, ect...

iron saffron
#

It has always been the case for decades that each table has their own canon.

jagged apex
iron saffron
#

Each edition changes monster lore, sometimes even during an edition (I'm looking at you, 3E Book of Vile Darkness!).

jagged apex
#

technically even wizards of the coast's version of the realms is different from what some might call the OG realms, the one Ed Greenwood himself uses and works on daily

iron saffron
#

5E reverted/retconned a lot of FR lore that occurred in 4E.

jagged apex
#

yeah, which from my knowledge is largely so different cuz 4e kind of just did not even bother to check older editions, they just kind of did their own thing

iron saffron
#

4E FR lore wanted to be subverted -- WotC wanted to reduce the number of deities so a lot of them were either killed or merged with greater gods. Entire nations disappeared or were submerged (only to reappear in 5E as if nothing happened).

jagged apex
#

some writers from what i know, knew it was more or less gunna flop, so made plans to more easily fix it when they eventually came and told them to restore the previous status quo more or less, like R.A. Salvadore

reef cape
#

I finally solved a lore contradiction that puzzled me!

#

I kept seeing weird informations about the Spawning Stone and the Slaad, but it turns out that it's because the lore was changed basically every edition

#

In 5e, the current lore is that Primus created the Spawning Stone to tame limbo and the Slaad were a side effect. While previously it was either an inherent feature of limbo, or a mystery

serene crater
#

quick question for FR dragon anatomy, is it possible for a dragon to be more human in movement (sitting/standing like one albeit slightly hunched and for a short period of time standing, moving its arms like a human can) or are they restricted to more quadrupedal movements?

pearl anchor
#

How long do rations and waterskins with water last? Do rations eventually go bad? I imagine the water is fine for a while though?

unkempt merlin
serene crater
#

ah

pearl anchor
#

I just want to know lorewise if rations ever expire.

strange rose
# pearl anchor I just want to know lorewise if rations ever expire.

it really depends on what specifically is in the rations and under what conditions. Dry foods can stay edible for years if stored properly, but if exposed to too much moisture they can spoil.

There's not that much "lore" on this to my knowledge, beyond just looking at how food spoilage works in real life.

pearl anchor
#

I see. I am just trying to research if they could eat rations that have been in metal containers for years.

#

It might smelll a bit stale but should probably still be good.

feral lintel
#

Thats not a thing covered by lore

pearl anchor
#

I guess but its not really in the rules either.

#

Anyways thank you.

jagged apex
#

though honestly the wording makes it less than clear if the two weeks is talking about the rations or the partchments and strings and such

#

and given the various examples of what kind of foods typically are rations, likely varies depending on what that food is, like i could be wrong but i have never heard of things like nuts or hardtack going bad

jagged apex
# serene crater quick question for FR dragon anatomy, is it possible for a dragon to be more hum...

they mainly walk quadrupedally cuz most dragons in dnd, is not just forgotten realms technically far as i am aware, because their anatomy does not allow for them to do so easily or comfortably for prolonged periods of time, most artwork i am aware of that shows this is that of gold dragons https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/forgottenrealms/images/c/c8/Gold_Dragon.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20070303115341
https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/forgottenrealms/images/0/0a/Valamaradace.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20220704122239

#

you arguably even see this with the one depicted in the recently revealed cover art for the revised phb

#

i believe if you want specific details you may have to check the 3.5e draconomicon as i recall that detailed dragon anatomy in great detail, and from what i can recall fizban's did not really touch on such details

#

but honestly if a dragon wanted to move more human like, especially a metallic of sufficent age, they likely would just shapechange into a humanoid form

lament storm
#

If dragonborns are the fertile offspring of dragons and humans, are humans and dragons biologically speaking the same species in dnd?

unkempt merlin
#

That's not what dragonborn are in most settings

#

And biology doesn't work like that in dnd, or fantasy in general often

sharp owl
#

You're maybe thinking of half-dragons, which are sometimes the children of a humanoid and a dragon _who has shapechanged into a humanoid"
It has absolutely nothing to do with biology and speciation

#

It's pure magic

lament storm
#

In the forgotten realms a dragon magically impregnated a human woman and thus created a dragonborn or am i wrong about that?

sharp owl
#

I have no recollection of that, but even by your own words, magic was involved

#

Also ease off on the bio-speak, you can just use server appropriate, non-creepy language

#

"Had a child with" works fine

#

In the Forgotten Realms, dragonborn are a species crafted by dragons using magic

modest badger
#

That'd be a half-dragon. No Dragonborn origin story has them be offspring of humanoids and dragons

static trench
#

How close is Damaran to the Sword Coast? Also, is there a specified accent that those originating from there have?

sharp owl
#

Accents aren't really a noted thing in lore, given how they're kinda difficult to describe without referencing real world accents

static trench
sharp owl
#

I can't seem to find much information on distance, especially given that the Sword Coast is a large region so working out how far something is takes a little bit of work

static trench
#

Gotcha

grim siren
# static trench Right. I was just curious since I'm imagining my character with an "American" ac...

Damaran was in the Ulou language group, the language group to which Netherese belonged. Damaran was also closely related to Easting, another Chard language which was spoken in the Vast and Impiltur in addition to Damaran. Damaran had been strongly influenced by Common and had a relationship to Aglarondan as well.

Damaran is based on Baltic Languages.

Dragon Annual 1999 #4 Page 28, Speaking in Tongues by Thomas Costa

#

Common is a belongs to the Thorass Group. According to Faerûnian linguists, Common developed directly from Thorass, or "Old Common", which was itself a pidgin variant of the Jhaamdathan language ("Old Chondathan") and Alzhedo. Among living languages, Common was most closely related to Chondathan. Which was basedon Italic Languages and Latin style grammer. Much of how English uses the Latin Alphabet but is a pigdin of germanic words borrowed and stolen from central Europe. Common is a hodgepodge tongue and was little more than a trade language; that is, it was not useful for complicated topics. It was simple and not very expressive as a language.

5e's simplification of tongues does remove some of this nuance but it is essentially inferred that common is no one's first language including those born in trade hubs such as the Sword Coast. Infact to many people of West Faerun the Chondathan language is their native tongue.

#

As for distance. According to the Forgotten Realms Interactive Atlas, the distance between Helagabl, to Waterdeep is 1848 Miles in a straight line.

jagged apex
#

closest connection dragonborn in the realms have to dragons in the myth that they were born from the blood of Io Spilled when he was cleaved in two, which also birthed Tiamat and Bahamut

#

at least far as i am aware and have ever heard or read

jagged apex
jagged apex
modest badger
#

Which is the lore we're discussing. "Discuss WotC-published game settings, and the events and characters that shaped them."

sharp owl
jagged apex
#

i am not saying it is

sharp owl
#

Okay, then what were you trying to say?

#

Saying

At least none in X
Implies that there may be some outside of X
But in this case, lore cannot exist outside of published material

stone grove
#

Has there been any lore updates on Vhaeraun and Eilistraee since Mordenkainen's?

sharp owl
#

No, not really

jagged apex
#

sorry if my chiming in and the way i did made it confusing

grim siren
jagged apex
#

and if memory serves he talks about her brother a little bit too

hazy fox
#

Also the new Drizzt novels had Paladin of Eilistraee.
Shame that that aspect was shown as “secret city” while main Forgotten Realms had them established in Sword Coast with their main presence being in Waterdeep.

strange rose
#

Lore developing areas away from the Sword Coast is good, actually

jagged apex
#

not sure what you mean by "secret city" though

hazy fox
unkempt merlin
#

@undone geyser

Many gods have dominions in the Astral Sea. These locations typically take the form of floating islands or cities of fantastic proportions. Astral travelers might visit these dominions as they would any other ports of call, though a dominion's divine ruler always knows when visitors have arrived and what their intentions are. Because these dominions are part of the Astral Sea, they are timeless; nothing ages there, and creatures can survive there indefinitely without food or drink.

#

Thats what the Astral Dominion sidebar says about em

undone geyser
#

OK so NOT an outer plane.

unkempt merlin
#

Nope

#

It's just the term for when a god makes a place in the Astral, more or less

undone geyser
#

I not see most gods having an Astral Dominion.

unkempt merlin
#

Probably not no

iron saffron
#

The Astral Plane/Sea is a transitionary plane between the Material Plane and the Outer Planes, where most gods reside.

#

The corpses of dead gods float in the Astral Plane/Sea though.

undone geyser
#

I have Wildspace(s) where the Primary generates a pychic wind that keeps the Astral Sea from entering the Wildspace. Similar to the real life Heliopause. My unique world has its own Outer Plane but no astral access to them ... I created another Transitionary Plane.

unkempt merlin
#

Yea, the corpses of dead gods is actually the second part of the sidebar about astral dominions

iron saffron
jagged apex
#

though for gods, depsite the terms, corpses and dead, is more akin to a comma than death in the traditional sense

undone geyser
#

I am currently running a campaign set within a Recently A Dead Goddess. Gotcha another board. Sigh

iron saffron
serene crater
#

After reading through more of the domains of dread. It made me realize something. Do the dark powers in the domains of dread have a physical form/avatar or are they more formless beings using the mists as an influence

iron saffron
crude blaze
#

iirc they have some sort of association with the Amber Sarcophagi, but as far as taking the form of wisps of smoky darkness in those sarcophagi, nobody’s 100% what their original physical forms look like.

strange rose
crude blaze
#

I gotta crack open my Ravenloft book again, it’s been a while

jagged apex
# serene crater After reading through more of the domains of dread. It made me realize something...

to my knowledge, no, at least none are known, and at least in 5e this is what we are told about them in the part covering the idea of drak gifts "The Dark Powers influence many who struggle within their clutches, tempting both the innocent and ambitious with whispered promises. These sinister bargains are rarely spoken, coming in dreams or mysterious visions, but their terms are always clear and their prices terrible." so seems to indicate that are likely gunna hear them or more likely get a message via a dream or vision, seems to establish they don't manifest physically even when they do interact with others, so between that and what is recorded on the wiki, they got no history of having ever having to take a physical form so they likely don't need to or simply choose not to

jagged apex
# crude blaze I gotta crack open my Ravenloft book again, it’s been a while

is in curse of strahd, not van richton's the side bar about the amber sarcophagi makes it clear to me that they are not related to the dark powers, and technically van richton's does not technically say the dark powers are the only ones that can grant dark gifts, so i feel that might have only enhanced the reasons people may confuse the two

#

plus if they were related, they would have at least mentioned the dark powers, which to my knowledge is what the dark powers are consistently referred to as, and usually when they introduce an alias for an entity or force, they also make it clear by revealing the name they are more commonly known by

strange rose
#

I think we've beat this dead horse and might be filling this channel with a few too many borderline Curse of Strahd spoilers.

jagged apex
#

closest thing we get to any sort of possible depiction physically of the dark powers is MAYBE in the artwork for van richton's before it goes into details on the dark gifts right after they talked about the dark powers, but even then is less than clear if those are ment to be the dark powers as the caption included under it simply reads "SINISTER FORCES LURK IN THE SHADOWS, ENTICING THE UNWARY WITH DARK GIFTS."

#

so even the closest thing we get, might not even be them

#

then again the dark powers have always been ultra vague beings in dnd lore, at least to my knowledge, so seems perfectly on brand and consistent

iron saffron
#

Remember that Ravenloft, the 1E original module, existed before Ravenloft the campaign setting appeared in 2E. The mysterious Dark Powers was a creation of the setting as a plot device to have various and diverse Domains.

jagged apex
#

good point and they are known to take entire chunks with their will be victims/dark lords, lot of people getting caught in the cross fire so to speak, so they easily could have taken various unrelated parts of those settings, seems clear that if you look at everything even just in 5e materials, the similarities between the two things are just coincidences

#

and we know that with vecna's history with the domains of dread, weaker gods and similar beings were just as vulnerable to being trapped there too, so is not like the dark powers were the only evil powers on the block, just the ones in charge

iron saffron
#

I've played the original 1E Ravenloft module and was a fan of the 2E Ravenloft campaign setting (I have many boxed sets of it).

#

Some things are best left mysterious and unknown. They lose their appeal when you know something/everything about them. Again, the Dark Powers are primarily a plot device used as an excuse to draw villains and whole lands into the Mists.

jagged apex
#

especially given that in 5e the domains of dread are heavily centered around different kinds of horror, hard to be scared of something if you know it inside and out

iron saffron
#

Well, this isn't the channel for me to express my opinion of 5E Ravenloft...

jagged apex
#

and we know they will just kick out a darklord, like with lord soth, if they can't get any suffering out of them, so makes sense they would leave themselves vague as possible

iron saffron
#

Lord Soth and Vecna managed to escape pre-5E.

jagged apex
#

i know, at least vecna's was, was not sure when soth got kicked out

#

i don't call it escaping in his case, cuz they, at least from what i am aware, literally just let him go cuz he became so desensitized they couldn't get any suffering out of him, which is their main goal by making someone a dark lord and sucking them into the domains of dread

#

but vecna, legit broke out, no matter how you look at it i can't see it being seen as anything other than an escape

earnest sentinel
#

Can the concordant express travel to Eberron?

agile patio
#

seeing as you can't go from toril to eberron with plane shift, I would say no

earnest sentinel
#

In that case , I need a way to fit a kalashtar outside of Eberron.

agile patio
#

dream of the blue veil

earnest sentinel
#

Thanks.

agile patio
#

or

#

Second, there was a way through the Demonweb Pits. Starting from Toril, a cave south of the town of Eveningstar, Cormyr, contained a portal to a part of the Demonweb Pits near the Rift Between Worlds, which linked to the Spinner's Prison in Khyber, Eberron's counterpart to the Underdark. From there, one could take a passage leading to the Harbor of Stormreach, a city on Eberron. One could return the same way and afterward teleport to speed the journey. This was only possible after the Spinner's death in 1479 DR.

https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Eberron

earnest sentinel
#

Makes sense.

ivory ice
#

Other than Succubus, are there any other "Weak" monsters that also effect dreams? I am not sure if this is the place to ask this.

iron saffron
#

Succubi don't affect dreams.

ivory ice
#

Well... I'm not a DM

iron saffron
frosty escarp
#

When it comes to familiars, I always assumed the lore was that you're forming a magical contract with an extant animal from somewhere else or another plane, but some people I've talked to lately suggest that they're meant to essentially be animal-shaped extensions of your own soul/consciousness. I'm curious, what is the actual lore there?

iron saffron
unkempt merlin
#

there are 2 types of familiars

#

spirits summoned into a particular form, or bonding/contracting with an actual creature

frosty escarp
#

Ahh, I see. Thank you for the info!

willow harness
storm goblet
#

Can the subclasses of firbolgs subtypes (the cowlike and the normal large giant men) be worked into a story to explain the difference?

iron saffron
#

There are no "subclasses" of a species.

#

The cosmetic change of filbolgs was an art direction change in 5E.

storm goblet
#

I simply mean i am in a campaighn were there a two firbolgs and there character desighns are wildly different, so a way to explain this for roleplay reasons would be good :,>

iron saffron
#

This is something you should talk to your DM about on how filbolgs look in their setting.

sharp owl
#

For example, just because a vampire has a certain CR, that doesn't mean all vampires are that strong, some are stronger and some are weaker

#

CR is what is called "non-diegetic", like hit points or levels

#

For the purpose of lore it means literally nothing

golden copper
#

The question was asking about in general, so I think the CR is a necessary detail

sharp owl
#

I was explaining how bringing CR into a lore discussion isn't necessary because it's meaningless in this context

willow harness
#

I was just using it as a way of comparing to the creature mentioned, since a “weak” creature was sought. (I’m pretty new myself so never faced a night hag or succubus myself, yet)

sharp owl
#

Again, lore wise it's meaningless

#

There might be night hags that could wipe the floor with a succubus, or succubi that could defeat a night hag in their sleep

#

If you want to discuss monsters in the context of CR and abilities, that's a discussion for #dm-discussion , not here

sacred root
#

My players are in Waterdeep and an NPC died. They are heading out of the undermountain to look for someone to cast either raise the dead, or Gentle Repose on the NPC. Would these services be offered at any of the temples? If not which NPCs on Waterdeep should I consider bringing out of the woodwork

strange rose
#

if there's a city on Toril that can offer those services, it's Waterdeep. I'm not sure on specific NPCs, though. You may just make up a high priest of whatever temple they choose to take the NPC's body to.

#

you could use the temple of Lathander (Spires of the Morning in the Castle Ward) as the default place to go.

sacred root
#

Thanks a bunch!

drowsy wraith
#

Are there volcanoes in Xen'drik? Eberron

#

Like big ones

empty stone
#

Why is it that whenever i get into a hobby, I have to make sense of the lore first
I have like.... 5 questions that should help me get a grip on DnD cosmology.

What is the relationship between the 'Astral Plane'/'Astral Sea' and 'Wildspace'?
What is the relationship between the 'Astral Plane'/'Astral Sea' and the 'Phlogiston'/'Rainbow Ocean'/'Flow'?
What is the relationship between the 'Ethereal Plane' and 'Wildspace'?
What is the relationship between the 'Ethereal Plane' and the 'Phlogiston'/'Rainbow Ocean'/'Flow'?```
iron saffron
#

The Astral Plane/Sea and Etheral Plane are both transitionary planes. The Astral Plane/Sea connects the Material Plane to the Outer Planes while the Ethereal Plane connects the Material Plane to the Inner Planes.

#

Wildspace is vacuum in the star systems in the Material Plane (aka "outer space"). The Astral Plane/Sea has nothing to do with Wildspace other than spelljammers.

#

The Phlogiston was the space between star systems in the Material Plane. 5E Spelljammer removed it.

#

There is no relationship between Wildspace or the Phlogistan and the Ethereal Plane (see answers above).

empty stone
#

Ok, thank you.
So, the Prime material plane, Shadowfell, and the Feywild are surrounded by the Ethereal Plane and the Elemental Chaos simultaneously?
In any case, it seems that the Astral Plane and the Ethereal Plane are the space in-between dimensions. (Astral Plane for higher/outer dimensions, Ethereal Plane for lower/inner), while Wildspace is interplanetary space, and the Phlogiston is interstellar space.

iron saffron
empty stone
#

The Great Axis make the visualization weird

#

I don't want to touch the Great Tree

iron saffron
#

The planes are all metaphysical

#

They're not actually next to each other like that.

#

Each plane is an universe onto itself.

empty stone
#

....I don't think i like the conflation of the Elemental Chaos as the equal of the Astral Sea in the Great Axis. I think that's where the majority of my confusion came from.

drowsy wraith
#

In Eberron if someone was using an eldritch machine to scramble and close the planes linked to individual manifest zones... What kinds of disasters would this cause?

iron saffron
#

The Elemental Chaos was something introduced in 4E. It's basically the elemental planes of the Inner Planes now. (Much of 4E's lore was retconned/ignored with 5E).

iron saffron
mild isle
#

Hello does anyone know the lore about underdark and Feywild

#

Are they like connected?

feral lintel
#

Theu are ni more related than the shadowfell and the elemental planes.

#

The Underdark is a subterran system of caverns, caves and tunnels.
The feywild is the homeplane of the fey.

mild isle
#

Yeah I read that in phn but are they connected?

#

Phn*

iron saffron
mild isle
#

Phb

mild isle
iron saffron
empty stone
#

There is such thing as the Feydark and Shadowdark, which are the Underdark for those specific realms

verbal bone
#

Yeah underdark is just the name of the giant cave underground in Faerun.

#

It’s a place, rather than a different reality.

muted yacht
#

Howdy. I know part of it is up to the DM, but we're playing a campaign in Deepwater in the year 1491 soon and I noticed this might not work with my backstory. I initially wanted to go with former broken bones or black claws members in a new society and how they dealt with the aftermath of Deepwater , but that was in 1200.
Are there still orcs around who might have tried to attack Deepwater and failed between around 1400? Because during the short lifespans orcs have, it would be the fifth generation since all that happened and since the clan has broken apart, I'm not sure if the orcs with ancestors from back then would still know about or be mad about this

iron saffron
#

Are you referring to the city of Waterdeep?

strange rose
#

Incidentally, Neverwinter was threatened by the Many-Arrows orcs quite recently in the 1480's, so maybe you can find a connection there.

iron saffron
#

Yeah, there is no historical attack of Waterdeep in the late 15th century DR.

obsidian gate
#

clan many arrows certainly had a lot ups and down in the recent FR timeline and they arent doing so hot

#

maybe your guy or his ancestors left the clan during one of its many civil wars

iron saffron
#

Work with your DM on their table's canon of the FR timeline.

#

Otherwise, there's no official lore on recent attacks on Waterdeep by orcs.

strange rose
iron saffron
muted yacht
#

All good. Thanks guys. I'm speaking to the DM in around 90 minutes. I'll bring up many arrows and see if I use that. And yeah.. Waterdeep, not Deepwater.. I gotta remember that 😅

silent atlas
#

So has there ever been a chromatic dragon and metalic dragon that fell in love in the lore

unkempt merlin
#

what setting

#

from what I recall its happened in the FR at least a few times. And in eberron due to the nature of dragons there

silent atlas
#

FR specifically Fearûn or some where in the forgotten realms

silent atlas
#

Basically I'm looking to see if good and evil dragon falling in love has happened before and how it ended

jagged apex
obsidian gate
#

chromatic wyrmlings are sometimes raised by metallic dragons i think

jagged apex
#

though that is very different from what sephiroth was asking i believe, as such mentorship only lasts so long from what i am aware, once they are old enough to know how to survive on their own, they will kick them out and treat them as any other threat to their own territory and power

#

but it means that often even if orphaned a dragon will learn the basics it needs from another dragon, regardless of type, least from what i am aware on that subject

modest badger
#

Council of wyrms might have something, but that was a particular setting

jagged apex
jagged apex
#

plus to my knowledge, seems rarely do they ever detail the parents of a dragon or if you do you only learn of one of their parents

silent atlas
jagged apex
#

well usually they don't pair with others beyond that, and again, to my knowledge no real examples are given from what i am aware, and even more rarely is it noted as being in love

#

often their natures would likely keep this from happening, be it on one side of it or both

#

romances of dragons are not really something explored in published materials far as i know except for maybe major myths, legends, ect...

#

like if you want such a thing you'll likely have to go digging yourself, unless someone else has already done so themselves and knows it off the top of their head

#

honestly closest thing i am aware of is the crossbreed stuff from 2e i mentioned earlier, cuz all the ones i found or could think of were pairings of the same dragon type

heady wyvern
#

Metallic Dragons have been known to mate with Chromatic Dragons, its rare, but it happens. Look at the Vesperins dragons of DRAGON FALLS AND RUINS>

jagged apex
#

yeah but he is apparently more so wanting love life, not just mating, even though the closest thing we usually get is mating to my knowledge in regards to dragons and their love life

gaunt nebula
#

Is the Changing race and Circle of the Moon in Forgotten Realms or Eberon thingy?

unkempt merlin
#

Changeling exist in multiple settings, including both the FR and Eberron

The circle of the moon is unrelated to changelings, and is related to druids, and also exists in both of those settings

subtle thicket
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I’m assuming iggwilv can shapeshift, so is Tasha ugly like a hag in her true form? Or is her bewitching appearance her true form

sharp owl
#

What do you mean by "is Tasha ugly like a hag in her true form"? What basis do you have for assuming the art of Tasha isn't her true form or that she has more forms?

feral lintel
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... Tasha's a human

sharp owl
#

at some points in her life

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She becomes a fey at others

feral lintel
#

Ok, her page says this:

The exact appearance of Iggwilv was unknown to many. Some described her as a ravishing beauty, while others claimed she was a bald and hideous crone.[2] In fact Iggwilv was quite beautiful in her youth with raven hair that eventually went stark white.[19] Even after becoming an archfey, she still retained a human-like appearance.

subtle thicket
sharp owl
#

She's a human at some points and a fey at others
Her appearance is as it's portrayed in the art, most recently as part of the Wizards Three in Eve of Ruin

#

She masks her appearance from time to time, as do many powerful beings

subtle thicket
#

Ok so nobody knows, but her humanoid form is a common depiction

#

Gotcha thanks

sharp owl
#

That's not what I said

#

She is human/fey depending on when/where in her complex, multiversal timeline you encounter her
However, her appearance is fairly consistent with exception of general changes over time any being experiences
She is also capable of magically disguising herself, leading to reports of her other various appearances

grim siren
#

Tasha was born a human at some point later in her life she is a fey for reasons that are a spoiler for an adventure. In Vecna Eve of Ruin, the Tasha we see is an eariler tasha than the Fey. So human tasha. Her relation to hags mainly comes from Baba Yaga who is Tasha's adoptive mother. She has no known blood relation to other hags.

#

Her phyiscal description as a blad crone comes from one known source. Return of the Eight (1998) By Roger Moore. It was one sentence and was only in reference to descriptions of her. Even the art of her on that page is a beautiful powerful witch.

jagged apex
#

yeah seems they may have gotten that idea of her being a shapeshifter from overlooking the adoptive part of her relation to the hag baba yaga

crude blaze
#

Kinda wanna roll Tasha up as a hexblood now tbh

merry atlas
#

What books of V5 are good introduction to the general lore?

feral lintel
#

What setting?

merry atlas
grim siren
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For FR for 5e there is SCAG

feral lintel
#

MtG isnt really covered here

grim siren
#

for the MTG settings in 5e there are setting books for Ravnica, Theros and Strixhaven the latter being pretty lore light.

feral lintel
#

You can also always look to the official MtG lore wiki

merry atlas
#

Thanks

grim siren
#

A better introduction to FR Lore is Jrophdan's vidoes on Youtube.

sharp owl
#

And much like how the FR wiki is a permissible source of info on Forgotten Realms, the MtG Wiki is an equally acceptable source of lore for the purpose of discussion here

#

The caveat is not straying too far from those published settings, even when the lore becomes more cross-planar

ancient slate
#

I am writting a homebrew with the return of Orcus, am i correct in my research that Tasha & Iggwilv are the same person and was in league with Orcus?

feral lintel
#

Yes to the first, not to sure about them being in league with orcus

#

Tasha/Iggwilv definitely was an on and off ally of Grazz't though

iron saffron
#

Iggwilv was never in league with Orcus.

ancient slate
#

Ok so they were the same person but allied with the other demon lord

feral lintel
#

The demonlords she interacted with were Grazz't and Frab something something stupid lord of illusions

iron saffron
#

Iggwilv and Tasha are the same person, it's just different names she uses.

ancient slate
#

I read that Orcus and Tasha teamed up to overthrow the other prince demons or something like that

feral lintel
iron saffron
#

Kind of... in the 3.5E Dungeon Magazine adventure patch, Savage Tide (which I'm currently DMing), Orcus and her does help the PCs to overthrow Demogorgon

iron saffron
ancient slate
#

Ok so they could have a tenuous alliance but they each have their own goal

feral lintel
iron saffron
#

Yes, because demon lords are CE after all...

ancient slate
#

thanks

iron saffron
feral lintel
#

Oho?

#

Ahh, ic ic

jagged apex
iron saffron
#

Who's the unrelated character?

jagged apex
#

i can't seem to find it anymore but i remember them being an npc in one of the earlier 5e adventures, else maybe i am mistaken and suffering from the mandala effect

meager skiff
#

Hi. I know I am a little late to the conversation, but does anyone know if there are plans to incorporate the Lore from MToF or VGtM's in any new products (or have been included in existing products)?

I realize that the studio has been trying to move away from the idea of "Official Canon" and make any Lore setting-agnostic, but I think that the snippets of those Lore sections I have seen can be really helpful when you are trying to bring depth to roleplaying (either for players backstories or DMs fleshing out major NPCs); texture that you don't always get from the Monster Manual or even the larger published Adventures.

late storm
#

What do you think the mark of death did?

unkempt merlin
#

While it wasn't given a specific answer (intentionally), it has been said by Keith that, due to the nature of dragonmarks it was a "positive" (rather than destructive) effect. So things like raising/controlling undead, speaking with/putting to rest the dead, etc. That's the best answer that can be given with lore

late storm
#

Yeah that makes sense

#

Maybe a resurgent vol could be like undead human resources

#

could a member the blood of Vol become immortal

unkempt merlin
#

That's pure speculation which is outside the scope of this channel. The blood of vol contains many who become forms of undead however

late storm
unkempt merlin
#

Like I said, it is outside the scope of this channel to speculate

#

Clerics of the blood of vol do exist

jagged apex
jagged apex
# late storm Like, could one become a god?

the people that basically murdered the line of Vol certainly thought so, killing them all to try to prevent this possibility, regardless if they were correct, fear moves one to do drastic things

unkempt merlin
#

Erandis Vol is the last member of the Line of Vol, which was the line of those who bore the Dragonmark of death. She was a half dragon killed because of many groups being scared as to what the power of an individual who was both draconic and being the mark of death would be.
Dragonmarks only function for the living, so as a result of her being made into an unwilling lich by (iirc) her parents, Erandis cannot utilize her mark.

#

The blood of vol is, technically, unrelated

jagged apex
#

though she opperates under an alias

unkempt merlin
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It's a religion

jagged apex
unkempt merlin
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yes, but the religion itself and how it functions is by and large unrelated to the dragonmark of death

late storm
#

Yeah

jagged apex
#

true, though likely a coincidence, would not be surprised if the name originally had some connection to the line

unkempt merlin
#

the name comes from the stories told about the line

late storm
#

Do you think the blood of vol could become gods?

unkempt merlin
#

the tldr is "the line of vol was eliminated for trying to become gods" and the mythology of the blood of vol religion started from there and the idea that "you can become divine" via the divinity within

unkempt merlin
jagged apex
#

the undead, no, least from what i recall, the living that they advise on their philosophy, in theory, but i am not sure if anyone has actually done it in the lore, the gods of eberron are far less concrete as other settings, thus divine magic is powered by the faith of the caster

unkempt merlin
#

there are many myths in eberron as to what the gods are

#

for example the dragons generally believe they were dragons, and that any dragon may be able to become the next

#

the whole concept of the gods in eberron is that the setting is designed around them not being "a sure thing". there is no definitive proof in setting of their existence. and the setting is designed to function the same regardless of whether or not the dm running the setting chooses to have them "be real"

jagged apex
#

yeah but what i meant is the established gods that are worshiped are not confirmed beings and are more in line to a philosophy than the typical dnd deity

#

and nobody knowing if they are real or not

#

unlike the forgotten realms for example where it is a known fact

late storm
unkempt merlin
cosmic otter
#

What exactly is a plane? I described them to my brother who was interested as being like planets but I’m wondering if that was entirely correct

iron saffron
#

The Material Plane is basically our universe with countless star systems and planets.

#

The Outer Planes is the afterlife with "heaven" (Celestia) and "hell" (the Nine Hells and the Abyss).

cosmic otter
empty stone
#

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/789051798631088149/1242534285550813314/DND_Material_Plane.png?ex=664e2fba&is=664cde3a&hm=485eb262757805a4c4b47b169c842e3f90efee343c47aa9f85c2977297fda10d&
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/789051798631088149/1242534285987156132/DND_Shadowfell.png?ex=664e2fba&is=664cde3a&hm=a095f28335c1d3581d4af08643205e5abc5eb8efb139c1e79197bcb976da1c87&
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/789051798631088149/1242534286456787085/DND_Feywild.png?ex=664e2fbb&is=664cde3b&hm=ae6a2d5b8309717db2741dfdac7f4eb72ad8c8cc555c5ab8db95e6739e9fb689&
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/789051798631088149/1242534287249506364/DND_Elemental_Plane.png?ex=664e2fbb&is=664cde3b&hm=f914986140e0848881ca3aa82f200b6403fce7615ee6936401e8bce6a2ee0426&
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/789051798631088149/1242534288944140308/DND_Astral_Plane.png?ex=664e2fbb&is=664cde3b&hm=b299416cb3cf1e7c6a3fceaa73c66e04a12a4234f12a528d24be600ae1356a80&

#

I was working on a little thing in the background, but since you asked, this might help

iron saffron
#

The Outer Planes' planes are each associated with the nine alignments and the gradients inbetween from Celestia's LG to the Abyss' CE.

#

This would better represent the Inner Planes than what you have there.

empty stone
iron saffron
#

This is the official lore channel. You can do whatever you want with your own cosmology but since 1E, the Outer Planes are aligned (pun intended) with the alignment graph.

snow laurel
#

This is uh sorta abstract but: do you feel any of the planes (outer, inner, etc) resemble Plato's "Realm of the Forms"?

iron saffron
#

D&D has used three alignment systems:

  • the nine from 1E to 3E, 5E
  • Lawful, Neutral, Chaotic in BCEMI
  • LG, Good, Unaligned, Evil, and CE in 4E.
iron saffron
snow laurel
#

I wonder if I can work that inspiration into the semi-canonical "Ordial plane"

empty stone
iron saffron
snow laurel
#

One of the players in my party is playing a platonist philosopher character so I wanted to work in a "realm of the forms" at some point

iron saffron
#

I never heard of the Ordial Plane

iron saffron
#

That's the great thing about D&D cosmology is that there is no one "true" cosmology.

#

FR was using the World Tree cosmology until 5E. The handwaving excuse was that "Oh, philosophers think it's actually the Great Wheel cosmology!"

empty stone
iron saffron
#

I played D&D since 1E and BCEMI. I would have remembered.

snow laurel
#

So you remember how in 2e we had the astral plane which connected the prime material to the outer, and the ethereal plane that connected the inner planes to the prime material?

iron saffron
#

The only google hit I found is that it appears to be fan created.

snow laurel
#

And in planescape there is the concept of the "rule of threes" and "unity of rings"?

iron saffron
#

Yes.

#

The transitional planes are highways to bigger places. They don't need to cross.

empty stone
#

Sounds tangential. It probably does exist (And/or it has reason to exist), just not in D&D content atm.

iron saffron
#

The ethereal and astral planes are based on real world concepts though.

jagged apex
#

the lines of where the planes intersect and their boarders, since they are infinite in scale, i have heard them compared to a signal on a radio, is kind of like how DC comics uses vibrational frequencies to separate it's multiverse, honest is a bit weird cuz the outer planes are at their core metaphysical, the line between abstract and not abstract is near indistinguishable

#

and to my knowledge the travel via the ethereal and astral plane is based on thought, so is not like it needs to be a physical or linear path, as thinking of your destination is what gets you there, if i am not mistaken

snow laurel
#

I think it's only thought in the astral plane

jagged apex
#

to my knowledge it is both, which makes sense given their closeness and how they work

#

of which the point there is no consistent "distance" between any two locations via those planes and traveling through them, at least in the traditional sense like if you were traveling on the prime material plane by boat, mount, ect... as examples

iron saffron
#

When you use magic/spells to enter the Ethereal Plane you're "phasing" out of the Material Plane. This is why ghosts can go through solid objects.

With the Astral Projection spell you separate your astral self (aka soul) from your physical body to enter the Astral Plane/Sea (think Dr. Stranger when he does his astral projection in the first movie).

verbal sluice
#

How they can Walk and not just fall into the center of the planet?

sharp owl
#

Magic

#

Not even being facetious, the whole of D&D is built on magic first, then something resembling our idea of physics second

#

Ethereal being can walk on walls but through walls because magic says that how it works

graceful jolt
#

I got a weird question as I just go my hands on eve of ruin, regarding Vecna's depicted appearance in the art with the subtitle "A young Kas and Vecna muse about the destruction of Oerth"

#

As far as I could find lorewise in my reasearch, Kas had only met Vecna once Vecna was already a lich, presumably being much younger than Vecna
Yet the art depicts both of them as of equal or similar age

sharp owl
#

The lore has been changed

#

They have now met prior to Vecna's ascent to lichdom

#

Any lore prior to this book that says otherwise, within the context of D&D 5th edition, does not apply

graceful jolt
#

Additionally, and a little weirder, Vecna's ethnicity seems to be different than previously depicted, the Ur-Flan, part of the Flan human group in Oerth seems to be inspired by native North American groups mixed with "vaguely ancient sumerians", usually with copper skin, dark hair and blue eyes. Now the Ur-Flan don't get a specific descriptor but its assumed to be similar to the Flan.
Yet Vecna appears as an European white, blonde with no discernable eye color. Is there any reason for this change?
I thought it was kinda cool to have a person of color represented as such a massively powerful figure in the universe, even if he was a (The) villain.

sharp owl
#

Again, it's just been changed

graceful jolt
#

I get that, but do we get a why? I'm not trying to be one of those "oh back in the day it was much better" folks, just trying to understand the changes

sharp owl
#

Nope, no reason has been given

graceful jolt
#

😦 that's a shame, we'll I can just pretend that art isn't canon for me

sharp owl
#

Not really a topic for this channel (nor how canon works), but chase your bliss

graceful jolt
#

Oh my bad, I thought this was in topic as it related to lore

sharp owl
graceful jolt
#

But if I want help with already established lore I'd come here right?

burnt lance
#

Question: is there a precedent for a cleric worshipping/being granted powers by more than one god, or being part of more than one gods church? Other than subordinate dieties, of course.

iron saffron
#

Clerics dedicate themselves to either no god, a singular deity, or a pantheon.

empty stone
#

It's common for clerics to worship a "sphere of influence" or "domain". A sphere of influence is, in simple terms, a clubhouse. Each clubhouse is representative of a certain concept of the world. Each clubhouse's members are made up of gods that rule that concept.

iron saffron
#

Otherwise this is more of a gameplay thing unless you want to ask about a specific setting.

unkempt merlin
burnt lance
#

Fair enough, thanks for the answers, though if you'd indulge my curiosity, do you know of one such example from the forgotten realms?

strange rose
# burnt lance Fair enough, thanks for the answers, though if you'd indulge my curiosity, do yo...

I'm not sure that we actually have an example of an individual cleric in the Realms who did not serve a single deity, but the Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide does have this to say:

A typical cleric in Faerûn serves a single divine patron, but some individuals feel called to serve a group, such as the elemental gods Akadi, Grumbar, Kossuth, and Istishia, while others serve deities that are intertwined gods, such as the elves' Angharradh.

iron saffron
strange rose
#

we also have a knightly order who serves both Mystra and Selûne, the Order of the Blue Moon. The order has some paladins as members, but it's unclear whether each individual paladin chooses to serve one of the goddesses or swears their oath to them both.

iron saffron
jagged apex
grand wyvern
#

Have there been any instances of killer mists in dnd lore?

iron saffron
#

Define "killer mists." Are you referring to a monster or a deadly environment?

jagged apex
strange rose
grand wyvern
serene crater
#

that would be the mists in the domains of dread as scarletstream put it

jagged apex
#

though one could argue, the ones that do the killing, at least in the 5e continuity, the creatures known simply as "Unspeakable Horrors" detailed and far as i know introduced in "Van richton's guide to ravenloft", which very much live up to their name one could argue

grand wyvern
#

Gotcha, from what I've skimmed it's a mist made to keep people in shadowfell. But I don't see much mention of the mist itself like who or what made it and how

iron saffron
jagged apex
#

it keeps people within, with very few exceptions, the domains of dread, which in the 5e continuity is in a specific territory of the shadowfell

iron saffron
#

There hasn't been any thing large enough to cover an entire continent that's a mist.

grand wyvern
iron saffron
#

I think this is more #dnd-discussion territory if you're trying to find a D&D monster to fit your criteria rather than lore.

#

The mists of Ravenloft is used by the Dark Lords to draw people and even entire nations into the Domains of Dread. It's not a creature nor a means of destruction. It's essentially a plot device.

jagged apex
#

Van richton's has a whole section in the first chapter dedicated to the mists and there is even a religion associated with them that provides which is somewhat intertwined with the nature of the mists, at least to some of this faith a god known as Ezra

jagged apex
serene crater
#

quick question in regards to the abyss. is the plane able to affect a persons senses with illusions or other methods of disorienting someone?

iron saffron
#

Not generally. If there are any such traits it would be on the individual layer.

jagged apex
#

and any other sort of weird environmental stuff is dependent on the demon lord who rules that layer and what they impose on it

#

so any given layer may or may not have such effects, Hollow's Heart is more or less just the most well known for that sort of thing

alpine geode
#

I'm running a highish level spelljammer campaign. I need to put the baddies lair somewhere, and I was thinking the sun. Players would have to get to the plane of earth, then the plane of fire and the city of brass, then the sun. How could they survive the sun though? I could homebrew magic items that give them fire immunity, I know the sun surpasses fire immunity, but whatever. But a lot of the natural baddies on the sun would be fire based, so I don't really like that idea. Suppose I could just make it immunity to environmental fire damage... Anyways, appreciate all your thoughts on this!

iron saffron
#

This isn't really a lore question but more for #dm-discussion. This channel doesn't deal really in game mechanics.

alpine geode
#

I see that now

iron saffron
#

Suns in star systems do have inhabitants such as fire elementals.

feral lintel
#

And Sun Dragons

thorny rock
#

Are vampires harmed by any sunlight in general, or direct sunlight specifically?

jagged apex
#

that is detailed in their mechanics

#

so not really something you need lore help for

iron saffron
#

This channel doesn't really deal with the game mechanics side of the game.

jagged apex
#

some of which only really exist to specific editions and thus those continuities of dnd, outside of 3rd party/homebrew adaptations

thorny rock
#

Like, If sunlight were to get reflected off of snow, would it deal the same amount of damage, be reduced, or just not deal any? (Mainly for character lore)

iron saffron
#

All the statblock says is:

Sunlight Hypersensitivity. The vampire takes 20 radiant damage when it starts its turn in sunlight. While in sunlight, it has disadvantage on attack rolls and ability checks.

#

How direct is open to interpretation from the DM.

jagged apex
#

as described in the link to the forgotten realms wiki, at least in the realms if going strictly by the lore, it specifies direct, be it natural or magical not really being a factor

#

else, is more mechanics and dm dependent

fluid atlas
#

So, what contains Wildspace? My understanding was that in previous versions they were contained by Crystal Spheres, but I don’t see any mention of that in Spelljammer. Has that been retconned in 5e? If so, is there a lore reason why they no longer exist?

crude blaze
fluid atlas
crude blaze
fluid atlas
#

Can I ask which one that is?

crude blaze
#

That’s an adventure spoiler I think

fluid atlas
#

Ah okay

sharp owl
#

It is noted that the crystal sphere surrounding that wildspace system was something of an unexplained oddity

#

As such, it appears that crystal spheres were fully retconned out with that one mention being a reference to the former lore

fluid atlas
#

Yeah I re-read that section and it appeared to me to be an entirely different thing than the old Crystal Sphere

half tulip
#

Hello, maybe some of you can help me: I'm looking for the (or just a) pre-cataclysm Dragonlance setting timeline. But everything seems to be focused somehow on PC (pre-cataclysm) or AC (after cataclysm). One site I found mentions the Istarian Age system, but it doesn't start until 963 PC. Anyone have any ideas?

sharp owl
#

Do you mean timeline or date system?

half tulip
sharp owl
#

Okay, for a specific reason/purpose or just out of curiosity

#

Because it might likely be the case that the Istarian Age system is the only one that exists other than the PC/AC cataclysm

half tulip
# sharp owl Okay, for a specific reason/purpose or just out of curiosity

In fact, for a specific reason. A new character comes from the time before the Cataclysm and therefore has no knowledge of the terms PC and AC. I would like to give him something he can work with. I was hoping there might be something to go with it, but if not, I'll just have to come up with something myself.

reef harness
#

So, is there a creature in dnd that resembles aeons from pathfinder? Something akin to cosmic balance, where their sole and only purpose is to preserve the order of the universe

sterile breach
reef harness
#

Yes actually, if you don't take appearance into consideration, their concepts are pretty similar

jagged apex
#

to partially quote their description from the book "Rilmani protect the balance between the forces and philosophies of the multiverse. They seek to maintain planar equilibrium, assuring that good, evil, law, or chaos never grow too powerful or too weak. To the rilmani, each of these forces is fundamental to the multiverse’s existence. Whenever one threatens to tip the balance in its favor or a plane is on the verge of collapse, the rilmani act to even the odds." end quote

serene crater
#

quick question, but has it ever been known in FR for fey to have relations with mortal beings?

feral lintel
#

yes. (glances at Tasha)

sharp owl
#

Tasha isn't from the Forgotten Realms

#

She's from Oerth, in the Greyhawk setting

iron saffron
#

Tasha was mortal human who later became fey (she's the adopted daughter of Baba Yaga). She's also not from Toril but from Oerth.

feral lintel
#

oh right

iron saffron
#

Most of the "named" archmagi are from Greyhawk setting.

iron saffron
serene crater
#

not gonna lie I forgot those two were affiliated with mortals

iron saffron
#

Game mechanics-wise there was a half-fey template in 3.5E

crude blaze
#

There’s also the Hexblood in 5E, which can be associated with fey

jagged apex
#

and more

#

plus historically in past editions in the realms there is the fey based changelings from around the time of 3.5e which was detailed in a dragon magazine or maybe it was dungeon, one of the two

#

plus hags, though only on a technical level, since to my knowledge they reproduce by consuming a mortal baby, so not really a traditional relation

jagged apex
# feral lintel yes. (glances at Tasha)

even if tasha was from the forgotten realms, she would not really qualify, as she is not fey, originally only at a certain point in her timeline does she achieve the status of archfey and become fey, and even then she was adopted by Baba Yaga, who to my knowledge has no mention of a partner, mortal or otherwise

versed shell
#

Hey, does anyone know if the Ascension of the Dread Three of Jergals portfolio is before, after, or roughly coterminous with Karsus’ Folly?

iron saffron
versed shell
#

Thank you, so negative years, Jergal was depowered seneschal during the folly. And years before you can get back to with the obelisks. Good to know.

jagged apex
versed shell
#

BDR then, you get what I was saying

jagged apex
#

and is not so much depowered, as he gave up much of his power willingly, at least i would not call it "jergal being depowered"

#

cuz usually someone being depowered usually suggests or implies that it was involuntary

versed shell
#

Downgraded then, no longer a greater deity during that time. Wonder if he planned it

iron saffron
versed shell
#

357 BDR 339 BDR, Jergal first then Karsus.

jagged apex
versed shell
#

I was mostly thinking about the whole Ythryn thing, what Jergal and Vecna would be doing around then. I’m doing a meta-campaign plot

#

Also I read something about Jergal manipulating Netheril, specifically Bhaal(not his real name) and Karsus

jagged apex
#

cuz far as i know, Jergal did not set them down their path to covet his power, the dead 3 set on that goal all on their own

versed shell
#

Bhaals demigod spark might have been his doing though

#

Also Kyuss

jagged apex
#

not really

versed shell
#

I came across something that Jergal was alien, and an ascended Weaver

jagged apex
versed shell
#

Weaver/Spellweaver

jagged apex
#

and at least from what i am seeing, Jergal has no connection to Maram in any way

#

and given how dutiful he is, i doubt Jergal planned it, even if he grew bored of the responsibilities he had at the time and thus desired a smaller and more simple role

#

so seems more likely that he simply acted on the opprotunity provided from the dark 3's hunger for power and their exploits towards gaining that power

versed shell
#

“All according to plan” is what I’ve heard, some prophecy about him splitting his power among three gods that would die and be reborn, and secret knowledge spread among the body of Kyuss (worms?) and that absorbing it all he’d be on par or above Ao

jagged apex
#

Kyuss is an entirely unrelated entity

jagged apex
jagged apex
bleak hornet
#

Anybody have a good place to start w dnd lore?

iron saffron
#

Which settting?

jagged apex
jagged apex
#

so is not necessarily one singular "good place to start" for any and all cases

iron saffron
#

Also, each DM dictates what lore is used in their campaign setting. So the best way to ask your DM since they may not use any official D&D campaign settings.

versed shell
jagged apex
#

not seeing where you are getting that, i have looked up and down the entire page multiple times now and am not seeing any mention of the Ssarukh empire, let alone in relation to Jergal

versed shell
#

Hmm, different page then?

#

Oh I see now, different fandom. Is this just fanfic lore I found?

feral lintel
#

Thats not the forgotten realms wiki, to say the least

versed shell
#

My bad, I was just reading it and it was about Toril

#

So everything I said was wrong.
It was compelling though, and I might keep it.

Also the spellweavers being six-armed multi-planar empire via portals, I wonder if Aoskar in the Planescape book has anything to do with the Spellweavers. The picture of his body in the Spire rift looks multi-limbed and blank faced like the race

jagged apex
jagged apex
shrewd bobcat
#

Anyone know if Mammon has a crest or symbol that his followers would wear?

iron saffron
analog garnet
#

Are there any 5e Books that contain a lot more information on the world of Greyhawk/Oerth (Similar to Shadows of the Dragon Queen for Dragonlance/Krynn) As a few things are not making sense with some of the adventures I've ran and what I've been reading in Vecna: Eve of Ruin

iron saffron
#

No. 5E has pretty much ignored the Greyhawk setting other than Ghost of Saltmarsh (the original modules were set in Greyhawk but the 5E book made them setting agnostic).

shrewd bobcat
iron saffron
#

Greyhawk has pretty much fallen out of favour as a setting since 3E (it was the default setting from 1E to mid-3E).

feral lintel
#

I hear its gonna be the one for the new PHB though, but thats offtopic

analog garnet
#

As well as Dark Sun, and a few others. I just wish I could get a bit more information on it so I can....add in sub-quests/adventures/modules/etc while the party is realm hopping in Vecna Eve of Ruin.

iron saffron
#

You will need to go back to the books from the older editions to get lore for those settings.

#

5E is relatively lore light, even for FR lore.

analog garnet
#

But Ebberon got not 1 book but 2 regarding it's lore rolls eyes

iron saffron
#

¯_(ツ)_/¯

analog garnet
#

Oh well. Life is that which it is.

unkempt merlin
analog garnet
iron saffron
#

It was.

unkempt merlin
#

Wayfinders A) wasn't a book, it was essentially just a small UA type document and B) is superceded by Rising

analog garnet
#

ahh okay

jagged apex
#

was basically the UA for the book we would actually get one could argue

unkempt merlin
#

Not just argue, it's what it was marketed as

analog garnet
#

Alright I get it. That makes a bit more sense.

jagged apex
#

i would say ask the creator of the setting for such info if not wanting to wait for wizards to put out some, but unfortunately gary gygax has long since passed away, so that is simply not an option that you have with other settings like Forgotten realms or Eberron

#

so best you can do, since they likely are hesitant to risk "ruining" it since is such an important part of dnd's history, is look up past published materials and simply use rational and logical thinking of how things may have changed over time, people who are fans of the setting could likely help you with that in #dm-world-building

iron saffron
#

There are still communities (including Youtubers) dedicated to the Greyhawk setting. If you want to know more than check them out.

jagged apex
#

especially the likes of AJ Pickett, just to name one, who are known for being rather credible, not just in regards to greyhawk, but the published lore they cover in general

analog garnet
#

I'll check them out and see if I can get an idea of things.

jagged apex
#

honestly, most important in regards to published lore might be anything included in the new vecna adventure as otherwise is likely a couple hundred years could have passed on Oerth

#

but that is assuming it has any info touching on the state of Oerth in it, idk cuz i don't own the adventure

iron saffron
#

Greyhawk hasn't really been updated (officially) since 3E.

jagged apex
#

and even then what we have gotten, mainly via certain adventures, i believe is specific points in time of the setting, not nessissarily it's most recent times

#

else you'd probably have to dig up and try to extrapolate from any off handed remarks the 2 main characters from that setting known to travel to others, even in 5e, Mordenkainen and Tasha/Iggwilv, who both had their own remakes and or notes in books for 5e, though some times these things are just quips more so than any sort of lore

strange rose
#

is there a lot of info about the wider world? No.

jagged apex
#

but even then, it is as i understand it a 5e retelling of the original adventures, so at best just helps you figure out what it was like in that area of the setting at that point in time for the 5e continuity

iron saffron
jagged apex
#

and off the top of my head i don't even know when those events would even be set, cuz idk the setting's calander system, but i doubt they use DR

grim siren
#

I remember when it was being promoted it was very much shot down that it was greyhawk at the time and that it was setting agnostic. Its obviously greyhawk but that was the messaging

modest badger
#

Gygax wasn't really involved in Greyhawk beyond 1e tbf, and a lot of 1e Greyhawk was also different writers.

There were some 4e Greyhawk content in Dungeon and Dragon Magazine, but it was pretty sparse.

jagged apex
verbal sluice
#

Hello

#

Can a vengeance paladin be peaceful?

iron saffron
verbal sluice
#

Then are there examples of peaceful vengance paladins?

iron saffron
#

Again, that's not really a lore question. Lore deals with what has happened in official campaign settings.

Discuss WotC-published game settings, and the events and characters that shaped them. Wherever possible, please indicate which setting you're discussing: [Forgotten Realms]/[FR], [Eberron], [Dragonlance], etc.

#

Remember that classes are gameplay mechanics.

modest badger
# jagged apex well to my knowledge the setting was still originally his creation, much like ed...

Greyhawk's an odd duck.

Gygax made the city and Dyvers, and some of the Flanaess, but when it came to making the setting he at first didn't actually understand why any DM would want another DM's setting. But they did, so Greyhawk was patched together from existing modules and with notes from other writers as well.
Lakofka wrote most of the pantheon and a lot of the history behind the ethnicities. Some of the articles in the boxset were lifted whole cloth from earlier dragon magazines written by fans (like weather in greyhawk). So yes it was spearheaded by Gygax and was 'his' setting, but Greyhawk as we have it in the boxset was never just written by Gygax. It was always multiple writers and patchwork by the time it reached players.

Gygax also left in 1e. After that Greyhawk was primarily spearheaded by Carl Sargent who wrote a fair amount of the world events and lore for other places, along with other writers.

Now TBF, most settings are multiple writers by the time they reach players, but I feel like FR and Eberron were more individually world build before being introduced to multiple writers, where as the Greyhawk we know was patchwork from the start and never just one person.

verbal sluice
#

There are no oaths on lore?

iron saffron
modest badger
#

The lore we have on the class would suggest no:

The tenets of the Oath of Vengeance vary by paladin, but all the tenets revolve around punishing wrongdoers **by any means necessary. Paladins who uphold these tenets are willing to sacrifice even their own righteousness to mete out justice upon those who do evil, **so the paladins are often neutral or lawful neutral in alignment.

strange rose
crude blaze
#

Yeah, it’s kinda like asking if Batman can be peaceful. Not very likely.

strange rose
#

e.g. the class entries in the Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide have lots of lore

iron saffron
#

Classes are game mechanics and not really diegetic to game lore. A character who's a ranger class may call themselves a warrior in game as would a fighter or barbarian.

#

Taps channel's sign:

Discuss WotC-published game settings, and the events and characters that shaped them. Wherever possible, please indicate which setting you're discussing: [Forgotten Realms]/[FR], [Eberron], [Dragonlance], etc.

crude blaze
#

side-eyes wizards who literally call themselves wizards

strange rose
#

there's plenty of setting information that does present classes as actually existing under the same name in-world

iron saffron
#

Magic-user, mages, wizards... different names of the same official class throughout the editions.

modest badger
#

There is lore on classes and there can be legitimate lore questions on classes and their mechanics. How does divine magic work, why are bards arcane, where do paladins get their powers from can be lore questions and have answers in the lore. There is flavour around the classes and that is lore.

But at times the game mechanics are simply mechanics and are game conveniences.

For this particular question the lore answer is 'We don't have a lot of examples of venegnce paladin characters in the lore to really say, but the flavour text for the class would suggest no.'

crude blaze
#

FWIW, I do think that a mod engaging in the convo instead of fully redirecting just goes to show that, to a degree, there is room for that discussion, but I’ll let Elgate speak for herself

iron saffron
strange rose
#

when she rephrased her question to ask about examples of peaceful vengeance paladins, that was pretty firmly a lore question, I think. Which Elgate has now answered. The original question is probably better for #character-discussion, I agree.

modest badger
#

Which would be useful if she was asking about the mechanics or if it was possible to play this alignment or so on. The question can be answered with lore- it's just not a very long answer because there isn't much lore.

iron saffron
#

WotC gave us minimum flavour for the class/sub-classes because they want us not to beholden to any particular lore to it other than a foundation of what that class is and how it differentiates from other classes of similiar nature.

modest badger
#

'How can I play a peaceful vegence paladin' would 100% be character discussion.

But in general I would advise against being too strict on dismissing questions about classes and game mechanics as 'Not lore'. As they can and do intersect. So you can try and give what answers lore does have as scant as that might be, and then direct to a channel that is better suited to exploring that concept outside the confines of what text we can actually quote from the books.

iron saffron
#

So yes, the vengeance paladin's flavour is based upon the tenets of its oath.

verbal sluice
#

Thanks

#

I feel enlightened

#

❤️

jagged apex
#

though honestly i doubt one dedicated to peace to the point of non violence would even train to become a paladin of any sort

crude blaze
#

I do wanna give the benefit of the doubt and say that the tenets presented in the subclasses are meant to be examples. The oath itself is supposed to be an individual thing for the Paladin, but WOTC wanted to provide some ideas.

#

That said, if we look at the example given for Vengeance, I wouldn’t say peace is a priority for them.

iron saffron
#

"Vengeance" isn't really synonymous with "peace"...

crude blaze
#

Yeah, kinda hard to defend the notion when their other monikers are “avengers” and “dark knights”.

verbal bone
#

Big comic book movie vibes there.

feral lintel
#

What exactly were the Dragon-Giant wars called again?

iron saffron
feral lintel
#

Thank you OldMan!

serene crater
#

quick question, has it ever been noted if Vecna was cappable of binding stronger extraplanar deities to his service?

iron saffron
#

He's not that powerful of a deity. I think he's only a lesser god.

#

He got his hand handed to him by the Lady of Pain when he successfully entered Sigil (all deities and powers of the Inner and Outer Planes are forbidden to enter the City of Doors).

crude blaze
#

(I admittedly don’t have the quote or source for the adventure where he goes from lesser to greater deity, I’m just speaking from secondhand info.)

iron saffron
#

I don't know where he's a greater deity.

crude blaze
#

I think he’s considered greater in the Dawn War pantheon and in Exandria

iron saffron
#

Well... I have opinions on the validity of CR lore here...

crude blaze
#

Lore is lore

#

Especially in the lore channel

iron saffron
#

Matt Mercer isn't WotC...

crude blaze
#

But Exandria officially is, like it or not

iron saffron
#

Anyway, I'll stop there.

#

But the sake of my knowledge of official lore I don't consider Vecna a greater god and I won't address him as such.

crude blaze
#

And even prior to Exandria, Vecna was listed as a Dawn War deity in the 5E DMG, so it’s not like he wasn’t intended to be significant.

iron saffron
#

How could he be around in the Dawn War since he was a mortal...

unkempt merlin
#

he is from the dawn war pantheon as of the 5e dmg

iron saffron
#

sigh;

unkempt merlin
#

"in the dawn war pantheon" isn't the same thing as being a part of the dawn war

crude blaze
#

Sigh as much as you’d like man, it is what it is

iron saffron
#

True he could be part of the pantheon without being in the actual Dawn War.

crude blaze
#

Feels like you might actually agree with the Exandria lore then tbh, where he wasn’t originally part of the pantheon but found his way in

iron saffron
#

"This pantheon draws in several nonhuman deities and establishes them as universal gods."
"Several of the gods are drawn from other pantheons, sometimes with new names for the gods. Bane comes from the Forgotten Realms. From Greyhawk come Kord, Pelor, Tharizdun, and Vecna."
Right, it's more of name of the pantheon than actual gods that were in the Dawn War.

crude blaze
#

And again, I constantly bring this up, it’s gonna be setting dependent.

iron saffron
#

Yes, okay...

#

I'm just reading what the DMG suggests as a pantheon.

crude blaze
#

I always like to remind people that in a handful of settings, Vecna is a god. In others, he’s still an archlich.

crude blaze
jagged apex
# serene crater quick question, has it ever been noted if Vecna was cappable of binding stronger...

no, cuz despite his divinity from what i know, Vecna still conducts himself very much like a wizard would, also far as i know spells that could bind or expell gods are only a thing in high/epic magic, the sort of thing that takes a great many archmages working in unison, so i doubt he could bind another god into his service unless he was just more powerful than said deity as such alliances are formed for the sake of their own protection will sometimes ally under a stronger deity, my go to example of this is the Gods of Fury, which is led by Talos https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Gods_of_Fury

jagged apex
crude blaze
#

It leans into the headache that is WOTC trying (and struggling) to engage in a multiverse plot

#

I’m all for Vecna and/or other gods showing up in different settings, I just want to be explicitly advised as to what his role is in each setting.

jagged apex
#

and mainly hurts my head cuz to my knowledge they never addressed how it consolidates if at all with himself from the more proper published continuity of dnd by wizards of the coast

#

well is a lot easier cuz it makes sense when they are already gods, like the raven queen, vecna's time as a mortal on exandria specifically is what makes that version of him hard to think of as being able to work along side his other lore

crude blaze
#

Hopefully with the new 2024 books they’ll do a better job of understanding what the multiverse plan is. Admittedly, I’m not super convinced.

iron saffron
#

Remember that Exandria started off as a home game that used many of "default" D&D deities (most of whom are from Greyhawk). The grey issue is that CR had two books published by WotC despite keeping their own IP. Apparently they're moving away from those deities for legal reasons (I haven't watch Campaign 3 but that's what I read).

jagged apex
#

like if Exandria vecna was not at any point a mortal, it would make him appearing in the setting infinitely easier to consolidate

crude blaze
#

Prior to what WOTC published, everything was effectively Homebrew.

jagged apex
#

or 3rd party

unkempt merlin
jagged apex
#

but when they put the setting out with wizards of the coast, that made it a lore lover headache more or less

crude blaze
iron saffron
#

Well, same difference. Their self published CR books use the same deities but not the names.

crude blaze
#

They had one name they couldn’t use because it was PF. And it wasn’t Vecna

unkempt merlin
#

different origins, different lore, same god

jagged apex
#

yeah but again, the part that makes it a pain for me is exandrian vecna going from mortal to god, despite the vecna we know presumably already being a thing

iron saffron
#

Elgate would know but one book (I think it was a 2E or 3E one) that basically said the gods have echoes of themselves in each cosomology. So if Lolth is somehow killed in one campaign she's still around in another campaign. That's why gods are VERY hard to permanently kill.

(I've brought this up before and she did mention the book but I forgot the name)

unkempt merlin
jagged apex
#

like i tried asking mercer via twitter, before it became X, to how if at all it consolidated with vecna from wizards of the coast's lore, but never got an answer

crude blaze
jagged apex
#

far as i know with like the whole tiamat and takhisis thing they were always gods or god like beings

#

like the part that confuses and makes my head about vecna hurt in that setting was their whole divine barrier and vecna being born as a mortal first on that world before he became a god

unkempt merlin
#

and they still have different origins

crude blaze
#

Not to spoil the newest adventure module or anything, but it encourages different worlds and timelines having different versions of the same character.

unkempt merlin
#

being mortal or not at one point in the history doesn't change anything

#

Especially when yknow. The non exandrian vecna was also a mortal at one point in history

jagged apex
#

yeah, but far as i know exandrian vecna came after og vecna already had been a god for some time

crude blaze
#

The Eve of Ruin Vecna is theoretically not a god, so it shouldn’t be that much of a mind blower

jagged apex
#

like if we had info confirming that it does not take place at that point and is before og vecna became a god, then i could accept that a bit easier

crude blaze
unkempt merlin
jagged apex
unkempt merlin
#

Powerful beings, such as dragons and ||archfey|| (eve of ruin spoilers) can have multiple versions of themselves running around at completely different points in time and completely different histories

#

(and this isn't a new thing for 5e either, as oldman mentioned earlier)

jagged apex
#

honestly i still feel it would help at least if they had come out with a statement or something regarding that detail, i know i would appreciate it, cuz far as i know that sort of thing normally isn't even implied with mortals much if at all

crude blaze
#

Again, I think when we start to look at the Fizban’s lore of different significant beings from different settings, it just starts to feel sloppy.

unkempt merlin
jagged apex
#

fizban's only cements it in regards to dragons

crude blaze
#

Still doesn’t change the fact that Vecna is not at the same level of godliness at every setting

crude blaze
unkempt merlin
#

and i'm not going to discuss the spoiler here

jagged apex
#

well divine power varies from setting to setting for multispherical powers in relation to their worship, that applies to all gods, not just vecna, and far as i know is nothing new

crude blaze
#

They have a sidebar that actively mentions significant NPCs and locations that have Echoes in different settings

#

Hence why the Tomb of Horrors can appear in any setting

jagged apex
#

it attributes that to the locations and powerful magical items, not the npcs themseslves

crude blaze
#

Fizban’s also suggest that even PCs can interact with or replace their Echoes

jagged apex
#

and even then it ties them to dragons and dragon slayers

crude blaze
#

I’d quote it out of the book, but I don’t wanna get in trouble for sharing paid content

jagged apex
#

and even then it is not saying such locations just appear in any setting cuz of it

crude blaze
#

Again, not gonna share paid content at the risk of getting a mod smackdown, but I promise you there’s plenty in Fizban’s that suggests locations and magic items aren’t the only things that have Echoes

jagged apex
#

reading it in full myself just now, it seems more likely you are misinterpreting what is being described

#

closest thing i am aware of is the remarks of stuff revolving around the dunamancy stuff when the vids promoting wildemount was coming out, far s i know that outside of that setting, the idea of it applying to mortals has not appeared in any published lore i am aware of

#

granted there may be something in the new vecna adventure, but i don't own it yet so i can't check what it says specifically on such a thing

visual breach
#

Do any adventures talk about the gods of D&D? Like a Avandra or anyone else?

iron saffron
#

Plenty. Which setting though?

fluid atlas
feral lintel
#

Theres a lot of adventures that feature or reference gods in them

#

Annamm, Lathander, Tiamat, Bahamut, the Lady of Pain, etc etc

visual breach
#

Wait is avandra been renamed goddesss of change ?

feral lintel
#

Does she appear in 5e that isnt Critical Role stuff?

round void
#

i think most of the stuff shes been in that isnt critical role is from 4e

iron saffron
#

Yes, you're correct. She's from the deities listed in 4E.

#

(Matt Mercer was influenced by 4E, I believe in many aspects)

visual breach
#

So do the gods from 4e exists in 5e? I know that sounds silly but I just kinda started in 5e

iron saffron
#

Deities aren't limited to editions but rather the setting.

#

There are different pantheons in Forgotten Realms than Greyhawk or Dragonlance.

#

The Dark Sun setting has no deities at all.

visual breach
#

So Descent into Avernus is like an Asmodeus kinda setting. 9 hells and stuff

sharp owl
#

Descent into Avernus is set in the Forgotten Realms

#

It uses that settings pantheon

iron saffron
#

Asmodeus is a greater god and the head archdevil of the Nine Hells.

visual breach
#

Can someone recommend some forgotten fantasy realms books that may be good to read. Trying to get better at this lore thing

round void
#

honestly the wiki is a really good source for deity information bc it has stuff from adventures, source books, novels, and other things that are counted as canon

visual breach
#

Ok cool.

iron saffron
#

The Forgotten Realms has a lot of deities and that setting only covers the continent of Faerun.

round void
#

you could start at the avatar crisis and just open tabs from there, it has a lot of important events and a lotttt of deities involved

iron saffron
#

That's quite the rabbit hole you just suggested!

round void
#

lol if he's really interested it'll lead him anywhere he wants to go

visual breach
#

I think it would be cool to live by codes and be a devout worshiper of a god and make choices based on the gods approval. Don’t know if the DM would love to have to incorporate that but still love that idea. Kinda like the idea of the gods actually making differences on adventures and stuff.

round void
#

thats def how you should play paladin and a cleric but a non-divine caster doing that could be interesting

iron saffron
#

Gods are very hands off -- they have hundreds of thousands or millions of worshippers, so they let their proxies hand the "day-to-day" management of followers.

visual breach
iron saffron
iron saffron
#

There is not ONE pantheon of deities in the Forgotten Realms but probably dozen plus...

round void
#

actually while we're on the topic of deities, do clerics have the ability to cast spells outside of crystal spheres (in wildspace) bc it would be outside the gods domain

fluid atlas
#

No I don't think that answers your question but it's what I can offer to this discussion 🙂

round void
#

oh there we go lol