#dnd-lore

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graceful jolt
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Like, can I just go to there(not necessarily leave)

unkempt merlin
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Often planar rulers have control over who is allowed to teleport into their realms

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Many archfey have this ability for example.
Domains of Dread are a bit funky however.

graceful jolt
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Could you give me an example so I can base myself here? My players want to planeshift to an archfey domain but the archfey thinks they are pricks even when they are technically allies

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even from previous editions would work for me

unkempt merlin
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An example of what exactly?

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Like a specific archfey or?

graceful jolt
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Like, in this here adventure or setting guide there is an archfey/domain ruler and if someone wants to plane shift there they can negate the Planar travel

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or like, in this obscure corner of the DMG it says such and such

crude blaze
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I think I've seen a lot of recent content that has emphasized that the supernatural leaders of specific domains have control over the borders of said domains, but if you want to give your players the permission to enter an archfey's domain with Plane Shift, there's really not much stopping you from allowing it.

graceful jolt
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Any piece of recent content you could point me to so I can do some research on that tho?

livid moat
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Not necessarily dnd but...
Would a god lose muscle mass if they were inactive for over a billion years, but were still eating fine and sustaining themself?

iron saffron
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Not D&D lore.

livid moat
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ah well

manic moat
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Who is considered the most powerful major deity as of 5e?

modest badger
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Probably still Ao (least in FR, different settings have different deities), not that he's one you would really worship

manic moat
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I see thanks, was just curious tbh

worldly jasper
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Probably not the first one to come in here with this topic but does anyone actually have a good understanding of the up-to-date cosmology inside the forgotten realms setting? πŸ˜‚

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I would certainly appreciate some help haha, i'm running a campaign based on some older adventurer's league settings so i'm trying to understand a bit more what's going on

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The second I felt like I had an understanding I saw a 4min youtube video from the officiall channel from a year ago that literally just goes against everything I read previously on the forgotten realms wiki πŸ˜…

unkempt merlin
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Official lore utilizes retcon and changes between editions quite often. The wiki attempts to reconcile it all together, but that can cause issues

worldly jasper
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I'm trying to write down what I think I understood but evertime I do so I just run into more questions haha. I feel like to understand the current "up-to-date" cosmology a solid understanding of what it previously was should help me

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Very basically - as I understand, previous to the revisions to spelljammer a "crystal sphere" was something akin to a solar system (in real life) which contained planets/suns/asteroids etc. as well as "wildspace" which was the empty space between different astronomical object. Though Crystal spheres as well as the "phlogiston" (the space between different crstal spheres) have since been removed in 5e. Is that correct so far?

unkempt merlin
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The literal physical structure of crystal spheres is gone in 5e, but the solar system aspect of them is still there (called wildspace systems). The spheres have evidence of still having existed "in the past" still however. And yes, the phlog was removed

worldly jasper
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So what previously was described as a crystal sphere is now known as "a wildspace system" and instead of a solid border (the sphere) it just "transitions" into the astral sea (which more or less replaced the phlog?)?

unkempt merlin
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Yea there is a border region around wildspace systems where it transitions into the Astral sea which has replaced the Phlog

worldly jasper
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Okok so essentially not all that different from the "original" spelljammer cosmology

unkempt merlin
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The cosmology is in large part functionally identical. The phlog was replaced and crystal spheres as a physical barrier were removed. But the rest? P much the same

worldly jasper
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Is it correct that inside such a wildspace system still multiple material planes can exist? Or is it one material plane per wildspace system?

unkempt merlin
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There is "one" material plane. With each wildspace system being a part of it (more or less)

worldly jasper
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Oh so what was previously described as "different material planes" like the plane of Abeir (after the second sundering), Earth's plane or simply "homebrew settings inside forgotten realms" got later turned into different crystal sphears (with spelljammer) and then wildspace systems?

unkempt merlin
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A wildspace system is effectively a setting.

Not all settings are in the forgotten realms

sharp owl
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So each world exists in the material plane and beyond those worlds is an overlap between the material plane and the astral sea

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This overlap is wildspace

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Two different worlds in two different wildspace systems are both in the material plane, and the same material plane

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However, those two worlds can have very different rules and forces and deities governing them

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The space between them is the astral sea

worldly jasper
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So if different worlds/wildspace systems are all a part of the same material plane, that means they are also "surrounded" by the same outer & inner planes? Like the Ethereal Planes, the Elemental chaos etc.?

sharp owl
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No, what inner and outer, higher and lower, and transitive planes a world connects to depends on the world

unkempt merlin
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Many do share the same planes however

sharp owl
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Some are shared, some are not

unkempt merlin
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The Nine Hells for example are shared by a number of settings

sharp owl
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For example, Oearth and Toril (Greyhawk and Forgotten Realms settings respectively) shared the same Nine Hells

worldly jasper
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So when looking at the great wheel cosmology model it would be more fitting to think of the material plane as a cylinder or a stack of discs rather than a single disc. With all the discs forming the one material plane (and the discs being different worlds/systems). These discs are then (in some way) connected to either the same or different planes.

Both the "material plane tower of discs" and all the other planes are part of the astral sea (through which the different planes are connected to the worldspace systems). Different worldspace systems can also be connected through the astral sea. Does that make any sense? πŸ˜…

sharp owl
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Not really, the Great Wheel is non-literal

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It's a way of picturing a conceptual arrangement of planes, not a physical arrangement

worldly jasper
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The "stack of discs" in this case not meant as a literal physical stack, just for help of imagining it πŸ˜„

sharp owl
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Well that kind of defeats the purpose of the Great Wheel metaphor, as that metaphor only applies to worlds with access to those specific planes

worldly jasper
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so the great wheel specifically is only applied to worldspace systems that are connected to the planes displayed on the great wheel cosmology?

sharp owl
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Other worlds with different planar relationships would have different cosmological metaphors

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Yes

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You can't have the great wheel without all the planes of the great wheel

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That's why, for example, Eberron doesn't use the Great Wheel, but an orrey metaphor

unkempt merlin
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Eberron as a material plane is also located in a place unlike all the others (its located in the deep ethereal, rather than the Astral)

sharp owl
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Even with the Forgotten Realms, which uses the Great Wheel as the default, the World Tree model is still used by some

Similarly, one vision of the planes where the deities of the Forgotten Realms reside situates a number of celestial planes in the branches of a World Tree, while the fiendish planes are linked by a River of Blood. Neutral planes stand apart from them. Each of these planes is primarily the domain of one or more deities, though they are also the homes of celestial and fiendish creatures.

worldly jasper
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But there is - in theory - a "greater" cosmology that does still connect these different worlds (the ones that use different cosmological metaphors)?

sharp owl
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Nope

worldly jasper
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So in that case travel for characters between worlds that don't use the same cosmology is also not a possiblity (ofc you're free to do whatever but you get what I mean)?

sharp owl
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No, that's not how it works

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Just because Plane A doesn't have a Nine Hells but Plane B does, that doesn't mean you can't travel from A to B

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You can't travel from A to B via the Nine Hells, because that's not a connective option

worldly jasper
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But above you said there is no connection between worlds that have a different cosmology, so in essence no connective option to travel?

sharp owl
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Where did I say that?

worldly jasper
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I asked about there being a "greater cosmology" outside of the great wheel that connects these different worlds, probably just a missunderstanding in that case sorry

iron saffron
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The worlds are in the Material Plane.

sharp owl
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The worlds are related in different ways

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Eberron for example sits within the Deep Ethereal, cut off from the material plane by the will of the Progenitor Dragons

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However, it's still possible to travel from Eberron to the World Serpent Inn, an inter-planar tavern that connects to all corners of the multiverse

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You can't however get there via spelljamming for example

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I wasn't saying you can't travel between worlds that don't share a cosmology, I was saying there's no objective cosmlogy for the whole picture

worldly jasper
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So in essence there are worlds (wildspace systems) that exist outside of the Material Plane, but a lot of the worlds exist inside the Material Plane.

There are multiple worlds that fit into the great wheel cosmology (by being connected to same planes depicted on the model) but there are also worlds that don't fit into this metaphor.

Inside a single world/wildspace system there can be multiple dimensions (like Abeir & Toril existing in the same worldspace).

Worlds that are part of the material plane are intrinsically connected by being part of the material plane. Worlds that aren't part of the material plane might still be connected to the material plane/the worlds inside it through other means (like being connected to a common plane).

Worlds that aren't part of the material plane automatically don't fit into the great wheel cosmology.

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is that correct? πŸ˜…

iron saffron
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Back in 2E Spelljammer, you could travel between Oerth, Krynn, and Toril via spelljammer because they were all in the same Material Plane even though at the time they had different cosmologies (Great Wheel, unnamed, and World Tree, respectively), which meant they had different Outer Planes (but often had the same Inner Planes like the elemental, Ethereal, and Astral Planes).

sharp owl
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Wildspace, not worldspace

worldly jasper
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oh yeah sorry, too much programming haha

sharp owl
# worldly jasper So in essence there are worlds (wildspace systems) that exist outside of the Mat...

There's a lot of stuff going on here

So in essence there are worlds (wildspace systems) that exist outside of the Material Plane, but a lot of the worlds exist inside the Material Plane.
No, there are no wildspace systems outside of the material plane because wildspace is, by definition, an overlap between the material plane and astral sea.

There are multiple worlds that fit into the great wheel cosmology (by being connected to same planes depicted on the model) but there are also worlds that don't fit into this metaphor.
If by worlds, you mean material plane worlds, no. There are multiple worlds that use the great wheel, because the great wheel is not a place or thing, it's a way of thinking, a way of picturing the planes

Inside a single world/wildspace system there can be multiple dimensions (like Abeir & Toril existing in the same worldspace).
No, Abeir and Toril both exist on the material plane but they're not different dimensions, just different worlds

Worlds that are part of the material plane are intrinsically connected by being part of the material plane. Worlds that aren't part of the material plane might still be connected to the material plane/the worlds inside it through other means (like being connected to a common plane).
All worlds are part of the material plane. However, you can get areas of the material plane surrounded by different transitive planes. For example, most planes are surrounded by the astral sea, however Eberron is surrounded by the deep ethereal. It's like the difference between an island in the sea surrounded by ocean and an island in a lake surrounded by fresh water

Worlds that aren't part of the material plane automatically don't fit into the great wheel cosmology
Again, no, all worlds are part of the material plane any world, regardless of what it's surrounding transitive plane is, can use the great wheel cosmology

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you need to move away from the idea of the great wheel being some kind of objective thing

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It's just a way of formatting information, like a filename template

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You might have a filename template that's NAME_#.#.#_OS_YEAR_MONTH_DAY.xyz
However, this template isn't useful to you if you don't use year/month/day and instead use UTC timecode. Or instead version number being #.#.#, it's just a build value

worldly jasper
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Oh so when (metaphorically) looking at the astral sea as a body of water (like a soup or a puddle) then the different worlds would be things that exist floating/swimming/sinking inside that body of water. While these different pieces (the worlds) don't necessarily need to be touching each other they are all together what is called the "Material Plane". The deep ethereal would in that analogy then just be another liquid put into the same cup that - in the case of Eberron - might just end up encompassing one of the pieces (worlds) that make up the material plane?

worldly jasper
sharp owl
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An analogy used in the Spelljammer book is that wildspace systems are like bubbles floating in the astral sea

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Each one is a bubble of air, but it's different air

worldly jasper
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but all the bubbles together are the material plane?

sharp owl
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In the same way that all air is air, yes

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the Material Plane is a classification of plane type

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It's a certain 'level' or 'state' when it comes to various planar relationships

worldly jasper
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OH so "material plane" is simply the "category of plane" that fits these planes, there isn't "A MATERIAL PLANE"? But wouldn't that then make a wildspace system (a bubble) a plane?

sharp owl
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No, it's an overlap between two planes; the material plane and the astral sea

worldly jasper
sharp owl
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Correct

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In Wildspace, the Material Plane and the Astral Plane overlap. Creatures and objects in Wildspace age normally and are effectively on both of those planes at once.

worldly jasper
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and all the other planes (outer/inner etc.) that aren't the material plane are still inside the astral sea?

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like the nine hells etc.

sharp owl
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The Astral Sea is a transitive plane that lies between them

iron saffron
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The Astral Sea/Plane is a transitionary plane that connects between the Material Plane and the Outer Planes.

sharp owl
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But that doesn't mean they're in the astral sea

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Best piece of advice I can give; abandon the idea of this being a spacial relationship between planes

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It's more like the internet

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Just because you can get to wikipedia, youtube, and amazon from google, that doesn't mean any of those sites are 'in' google

iron saffron
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I wish 5E Spelljammer didn't use the Astral Sea, it's making things more confusing than it needs to when the Astral Sea/Plane is suppose to be a transitionary plane to the Outer Planes rather than travel between worlds of the Material Plane.

unkempt merlin
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It's not that much more confusing than anything else

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The Astral sea doing what it does in 5e spelljammer doesn't prevent it from doing the other things it has always done

worldly jasper
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So it's better to think of the astral sea as a lose collection of connections (which aren't separated from each other) rather than it's own space?

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like a bundle of cables that are molten together

sharp owl
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No, it's a plane unto itself

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You can move through it, albeit by the power of the thought

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I'm saying that you shouldn't view the relationship between planes as spacial

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The fact you can travel from the Nine Hells to the Astral Sea doesn't mean one is inside the other, or next to the the other, or whatever

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it's just that it's possible to transition between them

iron saffron
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Or just don't overthink it. The Astral Sea/Plane is like a highway that connects cities (aka planes) that passes by them.

sharp owl
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Again for the internet analogy, just because Google has a link to Twitter, that doesn't mean there's any kind of spacial relationship between the two. The google servers don't have to be physically near or even connected to the twitter servers. It's just possible to shift from one to the other

worldly jasper
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Well technically they are connected physically, just not directly πŸ˜…

sharp owl
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That's both not technically/usefully correct nor actually constructive to the discussion

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Point being, the cosmology of D&D is fundamentally metaphorical/metaphysical

worldly jasper
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I'm having a hard time understanding that/if there is no "literal/physical hierarchy" to the cosmos of D&D. Like when thinking about our own (real life) universe (How there is an infinite/growing universe containing galaxies which contain solar systems containing astronomical bodies). Of course it can't be as simple with the existence of the other planes - I'm just saying this is the thing that fundamentally wrecks my brain right now.

sharp owl
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No, there is no literal/physical hierarchy/spacial arrangement of the cosmos of D&D

unkempt merlin
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Because of magic

worldly jasper
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Not talking about different metaphors for how the cosmos works from the perspective of different worlds here of course

sharp owl
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D&D is fantasy, not science fiction

tawny osprey
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Not sure if this is directly a lore question, but: considering an adventurer born in 1462 DR, now 24 years old in 1486 DR, how would the events of the second sundering from 1482 to 1487 DR have affected his life as a "commoner" from the silver marches?

iron saffron
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Each plane of existence is its own universe with its own laws of nature.

Don't try to think of why they are but just accept that they are what they are.

sharp owl
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"Universe" in this example meaning "a self contained system of fundemental rules"

worldly jasper
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But fantasy doesn't mean the absence of hierarchy or logic (i'm not saying there is no logic in D&D). I'm not trying to learn/reason why things work they way they are, i'm just trying to paint a picture of how things are (if that makes sense).

sharp owl
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Fantasy means that there is no requirement for hierarchy or logic

tawny osprey
tawny osprey
iron saffron
worldly jasper
sharp owl
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I'm not sure that analogy works

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But either way, your assumptions are a little off base as to how D&D works cosmologically

tawny osprey
worldly jasper
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Like going to the forgotten realms wiki of Toril. It links to "realmspace" which directly talks about crystals spheres, phlogiston & an out of date definition of wildspace.

unkempt merlin
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Like I said earlier, the FR wiki tries to reconcile everything as true at the same time (mostly, other than when it acts like something is just false, like Firbolg lore). And this causes issues because often retcons cannot play nicely together with old lore

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So the wiki will cause confusion in that regard.

worldly jasper
tawny osprey
# worldly jasper I'm just trying to get an "omnipotent" view of how the overarching universe is b...

Maybe it helps to think about these things in an in-game context. Like, we're dealing with concepts probably beyond any known being existing within that universe that would be able to communicate or publish these facts. So all there is left are wild assumptions, observations and studies of individuals with a limited understanding. It makes sense then that the published "lore" of that universe is contradictory and clustered. If nobody in-game knows, why bother?

sharp owl
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I mean, ultimately D&D is not real and this means

  • Some stuff will contradict other stuff
  • Some things will be missing details
  • Some things won't have answers/won't be possible to answer
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Cross-setting cosmology hits all three of those

worldly jasper
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Both of your messages do

iron saffron
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D&D lore is almost as messy as DC Comics' (albeit with fewer retcons).

worldly jasper
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My TTRPG background is mostly from homebrew worlds where I've usually written the cosmology myself (or someone else did) which makes it easy to break down that cosmology from an omnipotent perspective. Doing the same to the D&D lore is just a lot harder haha

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it's also just vast

iron saffron
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It's 49 years of lore...

worldly jasper
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one more general question though: are the forgotten realms a wildspace, are they more than that, the "whole cosmos of D&D" or are they just "the setting" and hence outside/seperate of the cosmology πŸ˜…

iron saffron
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The Forgotten Realms is a campaign setting that takes place on the planet Toril which is in Realmspace, which in turn is in the Material Plane, which is part of the Great Wheel cosmology (as of 5E, previously it used the World Tree cosmology).

sharp owl
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FR is a setting, which is a narrative label

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So for example, an FR adventure can take place outside of Toril, it just has to have some kind of narrative connection to Toril as opposed to any other specific plane

worldly jasper
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so if you told any character inside a FR adventures the words "forgotten realms" they wouldn't mean anything

sharp owl
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It's not a diegetic term, correct

iron saffron
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There were four official campaign settings that took place on Toril (Forgotten Realms, Maztica, Kara-tur, and Al-Qadim), each one taking place on a different continent.

sharp owl
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Just like how someone from Exandria has no idea what Critical Role is, or someone from Ravnica wouldn't have the fogiest about Magic the Gathering

worldly jasper
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That's one very good distinction to have out of the way haha. Because in a lot of sources it still uses the term forgotten realms as an in-universe term (as in what all the other planes would be called from the view of a inhabitant of ficticious earth - which is or was original part of the DnD lore).

sharp owl
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I've never seen it used as an in-universe term, I'd be super curious about examples of that

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There are some settings where the setting name exists in-universe (for example the Dragonlance setting is named for a legendary weapon) and for some settings the setting is the plane/world (such as Eberron)

magic jackal
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The original lore goes that the Forgotten Realms was once a sort of twin world to Earth, but it's since drifted away and we've since forgotten it, hence the name.

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It's not an in-universe term in the FR but it is an in-universe term allegedly on fictional real Earth.

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But nobody in the present would actually know about it, and though some people and Gods did come through from Earth to the FR such as the Mulhorandi or Tyr, I don't recall it ever being mentioned by those travelers

worldly jasper
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and fictional real Earth would from real real Earth be considered part of the Forgotten Realms setting dndLol

magic jackal
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Eh, not really.

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The FR Campaign setting is the FR wildspace, and associated cosmology, which does not include Earth. That's more a tangential reference.

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The fictional-real Earth would technically in this context be its own "campaign setting"

worldly jasper
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Well Elminster (who is quite obviously part of the FR setting) does visit "fictional real Earth" on multiple occassions, wouldn't that make it part of the FR setting?

sharp owl
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The Forgotten Realms existed long before D&D existed; Ed Greenwood started worldbuilding as a child and kept going with it

magic jackal
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Nope. Tasha's from the Greyhawk Setting, but she visits FR as well. That doesn't mean Greyhawk is part of FR.

sharp owl
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When he sold it to TSR, not everything he built got pulled into the "canon"

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Also Ed has never had any "word of god" power over the setting, by his own admission, so you're best off using actual citeable sources

worldly jasper
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Wait but now you're saying that FR is the wildspace (the one in which Toril is the third planet from the sun) while above Davyd did say FR is a term outside of the cosmology 😢

magic jackal
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Correct.

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FR is an external term used to describe the realmspace, it's not called that in-universe.

worldly jasper
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oooh sorry i see where my confusing came from in that regard

sharp owl
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Wildspace systems have their own names, some of which are based on non-diegetic sources
Forgotten Realms = Realmspace
Dark Such = Athaspace
Greyhawk = Greyspace
Dragonlance = Krynnspace

worldly jasper
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so while no one in that universe would call this specific wildspace "Forgotten Realms" (as they call it realmspace) we (real life people) do refer to the realmspace as FR

pine reef
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Can we link a wiki article if it has lore?

sharp owl
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Please refer to the #rules on link etiquette

pine reef
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OK, unsure if it falls in pirated content or not, so I'll just not link it. I read that Malcanthet the Succubi Queen and Demon Lord has some children including Socothbenoth. I found references to Socothbenoth in Pathfinder and it is mentioned he's the brother of Nocticula. Is it a different Socothbenoth or same one?

sharp owl
sharp owl
pine reef
sharp owl
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I found references to Socothbenoth in Pathfinder and it is mentioned he's the brother of Nocticula. Is it a different Socothbenoth or same one?

pine reef
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OK, then I will rephrase; who in D&D lore is Socothbenoth ?

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As I couldn't find an explanation to what that is in D&D lore. πŸ™‚

sharp owl
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A quick google suggest that Socothbenoth is not a topic suitable for this server

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You will probably have to look/ask elsewhere

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Sorry

iron saffron
jagged apex
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and seems he last was mentioned, even in passing, in 4e

iron saffron
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There's a lot of demon lords mentioned in name only.

sharp owl
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Again, that particular character happens to overlap with a lot of themes that are not appropriate for this server

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So moving on

jagged apex
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wonder how many more titles have a similar case of fighting to claim

iron saffron
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Prince of Demons

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Orcus and Graz'zt want that title.

jagged apex
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i know that, as i mentioned, i had thought that it had been the only such title

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either way, i find that there is more than the obvious title that is in high enough demand for demon lords to be fighting over it, neat

worldly jasper
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Sorry if i'm circling back now, but i'm trying to write down a small overview for myself (I hope I'm not being annoying here!), but are these correct then?

  • The forgotten realms is a (narrative) setting but also is used to describe the realmspace, which is the world aka. wildspace system in which the planet Toril exists.
  • Wildspace (the airless void) is also (usually/'always') a part of a wildspace system. It's the space surrounding planets and other astronomical bodies inside a wildspace system.
  • Abeir is part of another wildspace system that is functionally the same as the realmspace just with Abeir in place of Toril (since the second sundering)
  • If one travels far enough through the wildspace inside their wildspace system they can transition out of their wildspace system into the astral sea.
  • The astral sea is "only" a transitory plane that CAN connect a wildspace system to outer planes (and through which one can travel by thought once reached physically or via astral projection) or other wildspace systems.
iron saffron
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3E Fiendish Codex: Hordes of the Abyss has a list of dozens of demon lords, their layers (if any), and titles (if any).

worldly jasper
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The Abeir one is the one I was hesitant to write because it doesn't seem to be well defined haha

iron saffron
jagged apex
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abeir is basically out of phase with toril, to my understanding

iron saffron
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In general Abeir is just another planet in Realmspace and not have its own system.

jagged apex
worldly jasper
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But in the current year of the lore it isn't physically present inside the realmspace as - before the spellplague - the existence of Abeir wasn't even know to the people of Toril?

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it is described as "circling the same sun and having the same satellites as Torill" but not being in the same physical dimension

worldly jasper
grim siren
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Out of phase is the best way to describe Abeir. It's not like hiding in the other side of the sun.

sharp owl
# worldly jasper Sorry if i'm circling back now, but i'm trying to write down a small overview fo...

The forgotten realms is a (narrative) setting but also is used to describe the realmspace, which is the world aka. wildspace system in which the planet Toril exists.
Forgotten Realms and Realmspace are non-diegetic terms, they don't exist in world
Wildspace (the airless void) is also (usually/'always') a part of a wildspace system. It's the space surrounding planets and other astronomical bodies inside a wildspace system.
You cannot have a wildspace system without wildspace. It's the area where the material plane around a world or worlds and the astral sea overlaps
Abeir is part of another wildspace system that is functionally the same as the realmspace just with Abeir in place of Toril (since the second sundering)
Abeir and Toril where separate worlds within the same wildspace system. They got merged in some capacity at one point
If one travels far enough through the wildspace inside their wildspace system they can transition out of their wildspace system into the astral sea.
Yes, wildspace fades away into a silvery mist
The astral sea is "only" a transitory plane that CAN connect a wildspace system to outer planes (and through which one can travel by thought once reached physically or via astral projection) or other wildspace systems.
No, it is it's a plane in its own right that acts as a transitory plane, that's not it's only purpose. You can find astral dominions, dead gods, and other things there

grim siren
#

Abeir and Toril were one world. They were separated during the Sundering. Then during the Spellplague the world's began to merge back together.

As of the second sundering in 5e they are separate again.

#

I understand the confusion about the names. As characters in the forgotten realms call it. "The Realms"

worldly jasper
sharp owl
#

non-diegetic is the term

#

Realmspace is a non-diegetic label

#

Diegetic means "exists in and as part of the fiction"

worldly jasper
#

Yes i got that, i'm just commenting because you're comment looked like a correction to my statement, whereas i didn't intend to call FR/Realmspace diegetic in the first place

sharp owl
#

sure

worldly jasper
#

more simply put;

forgotten realms = a setting of D&D
realmspace = a specific wildspace system (even if its a non-diegetic term)
toril = a planet inside realmspace
wildspace = airless void surrounding astral bodies inside a wildspace system
astral sea = a plane that surrounds & overlaps with other planes, acts as a transistory plane

grim siren
#

That's about right. Yeah.

worldly jasper
#

different wildspace systems can also be 'connected' (traversed from and to) via astral sea?

sharp owl
#

wildspace = the region where the material plane and the astral sea overlap

#

That would be a more accurate description as that's literally how the term is defined in the Spelljammer book

#

No, difference wildspace systems are not connected

#

At least insofar as different countries aren't connected by the sea

#

You can traverse the Astral Sea to travel between them, but there's no tangible connection

#

For example, two different spelljammers can leave the same wildspace system heading for the same destination and it take vastly different amounts of time

#

I believe it's based on how good a mental image you have of your destination

worldly jasper
#

Ah yes that's why i put it in apostrophes - not connected like a cable between them but you can exit one wildspace system to enter the astral sea, and the traverse the astral sea via thought to re-enter another wildspace system

grim siren
#

You can travel from one wildspace system to another.

sharp owl
#

One doesn’t need a map to navigate the Astral Sea. Here, all creatures are blessed with directional awareness. In other words, a creature can get to where it wants to go by thinking of its destination, at which point it becomes aware of the most direct route to that location.

grim siren
#

About 60% of Spelljammer would fall apart if wildspace traversal was not possible.

sharp owl
#

No one said it wasn't though, so all good there

iron saffron
#

It's the entire reason behind spelljamming...

worldly jasper
#

the concept i'm honestly having the hardest time understanding is the term of "material plane"

iron saffron
#

Material Plane = our universe where mortals live.

worldly jasper
#

this might be because i'm no native english speaker and "plane" just seems like such a made up word haha

grim siren
#

Don't worry Wotc and tsr could only agree for a few years at a time what the prime is anyway.

iron saffron
#

Again, each plane of existence is an universe onto itself, hence the "multiverse."

Think of the Outer Planes as the "afterlife" where mortals' souls go.

sharp owl
#

Material plane just means "Worlds in this plane of existence are all kinda similar in how they work and are closest to our own reality in that regard"

jagged apex
#

the wildspace systems are like apples or corks bobbing in a container of water, and the astral plane is the water, you can sail across it to get from one to another, but cuz of the nature of the astral plane as a plane of thought it can be inconsistent with the time it can take to get there, if that helps

sharp owl
#

And plane means "level of existence" in this context

worldly jasper
#

Is

a) every wildspace system where mortals live their mortal life a material plane.

or

b) every wildspace system where mortals live their mortal life part of THE material plane?

sharp owl
#

Yes to both

#

Those are the same statement

jagged apex
#

i believe this was asked a while back, but i can't recall how far back you'd have to scroll up to find it

grim siren
#

In older editions. There used to be multiple prime material planes. For each main world.

5e doesn't bother with such distinction.

sharp owl
#

There are multiple distinct pockets of material plane that each have their own subtly different rules that are all part of the material plane

#

Like the bubbles of air; it's all air, but it's all different air

#

Blow smoke into one bubble, it won't appear in the others
Warm one bubble up, the others won't get warm
But it's all still air

worldly jasper
#

OH so "material plane" is just one the many words that is used multiple times to say different things!

Like there is "the material plane" which is a culmination of all planes that qualify as "a material plane"

sharp owl
#

Pretty much

#

Toril is on the material plane, as is Krynn

jagged apex
#

honestly seems like is something that can change based on one's perspective or perception, which ever fits i am not sure, but effectively they all exist equally, as i understand it either way you slice it the material plane is the physical universe/cosmos

sharp owl
#

However, those two settings (Forgotten Realms and Dragonlance) have very different metaphysical rules

#

Heck, they have very different Tiamats and Bahamuts

#

Slash Tarkhisis and Paladine

#

Again, it's all incredibly metaphysical, so trying to take a rigid, phyiscal view of it is gonna be putting a round peg in a square hole

#

So maybe just accept that it is what it is?

worldly jasper
#

Honestly i got extra confused when i looked up Eberron on the FR wiki. Because there it is written that Eberron is part of another material plane then the "prime material plane" (which again is probably down to some revision jumble) and I assumed this means "ah so there can not be a singular "the material plane" in that case".

Rather it could be layed out like this:

Eberron is a planet. This planet is part of it's own wildspace system. This wildspace system and it's own subtly different rules are A material plane. This specific material plane is part of THE material plane (different air but still air).

#

does that sound right?

grim siren
#

Yeah Eberron is a special one.

iron saffron
#

Ebberon lore? Step away. Slowly.

jagged apex
#

or aspects as i believe they are usually referred to in the wider lore when trying to consolidate things, though if going by the definition of metaphysics, being metaphysical nature is by default something that is rather abstract and theoretical, least from what i found via a quick google search, is just in dnd those gods and other metaphysical concepts can somewhat physical interact and what not under certain circumstances

grim siren
#

Eberron is like the English language of lore. There are more exceptions than rules lmao

jagged apex
#

honestly seems like is really something ment to add up to a degree, trying to define it clearly and logically from begining to end may be something that is not intended and thus a bit a pain in the brain

jagged apex
#

to my knowledge eberron is basically it's own self contained cosmology that is hidden away in the deep ethereal from the rest of the multiverse in a massive pocket dimension of sorts

worldly jasper
#

Are all wildspace systems automatically a material plane? Or are we getting to SchrΓΆdinger levels of questioning here lol

#

(like a wildspace system without any mortal inhabitans would go against the definition of material plane until a mortal travels there??)

jagged apex
#

to my knowledge most are on the prime material plane by nature, unless they are in special situations like eberron, though i could be wrong, i have seen nothing that indicates any wildspace systems, at least that we know of, exist outside of the prime material plane, eberron being a rather special case that basically has it's own chunk of the prime material plane within it's pocket dimension

iron saffron
#

Eberron is the only official exception that isn't in the Material Plane proper that I know of.

sharp owl
#

You cannot have a region defined by A and B overlapping without A

sharp owl
unkempt merlin
iron saffron
#

That's why I said "proper" to diffentiate it from its unique cosmology.

worldly jasper
iron saffron
#

Our real world universe has countless number of galaxies and each galaxy has billions of star systems.

So similarly, the Material Plane is an universe that has countless of wildspace systems.

#

So to traverse between systems you use a spelljamming ship to "sail" through wildspace/Astral Sea.

sharp owl
jagged apex
hazy pivot
jagged apex
#

given it's the abyss, horrifying is a safe bet

worldly jasper
#

@sharp owl would you mind checking a small summary I wrote about the cosmology of FR based on all the feedback you and other gave me earlier? (i'm running a campaign as a DM in the FRs but most of my players, albeit interested have no knowledge of the lore and I want to make them have an easier time grasping it than I had haha)

sharp owl
#

I'm busy right now, it's time for my weekly D&D session

worldly jasper
#

Haha alright no worries, i'll just post it in here and anyone that understands the lore better than me feel free to comment πŸ˜„

jagged apex
#

another chat might be more fitting

worldly jasper
#

I wish my D&D session was now but it's not for another 6 days 😭

worldly jasper
jagged apex
worldly jasper
#

It's mostly just about fact checking not about if it's a good text to hand to my players so I thought here would be more appropriate

#

because if I still missunderstood stuff the people here in the lore channel probably know better

iron saffron
#

Remember that canon is what you make of it at your table. You're not obligated to stick with "official" lore (it's not that hard considering lore changes from edition to edition).

jagged apex
#

yeah, so unless you and your table are wanting to play as lore accurate a version of the setting as possible, you can take some liberties or deviate, much like acquisitions incorporated did for their version of the forgotten realms which even got published

worldly jasper
#

That's true, our campaign is already going into that territory anways (as the adventure plays a few years in the past) but I'd still like to provide a "as close to vanilla" experience as possible and build ontop of it (if that makes sense)

#

Instead of already making (even if accidental) sweeping changes to the fundament of the world haha

jagged apex
#

i have something related to that but i feel is more worth continuing in #dm-discussion at least on my part

eager bay
#

How many drow slaves does a drow matriarch typically have?

iron saffron
#

Ask your DM.

eager bay
iron saffron
#

Make it up.

eager bay
#

Damn

#

Was gonna send the "I need an adult I am an adult" meme

eager bay
# iron saffron Make it up.

So you're telling me out of every edition of D&D there is no lore on how many drow slaves typically share a single master?

iron saffron
#

You need to get more specific on setting and city, such as Menzoberranzan.
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Menzoberranzan#Inhabitants

In 1372, the city had 32,000 inhabitants β€” approximately one-third drow and the rest humanoid slaves, namely orcs, kobolds, gnolls, humans, and the occasional illithid.

D&D doesn't always goes into minute details like the number of slaves a house has.

eager bay
modest badger
#

In AD&D 1e, Drow Houses of Erelhei-Cinlu had about 21-50 slaves per house.

eager bay
eager bay
#

How many slaves do marid keep? Again, looking for an estimate or specific examples

modest badger
#

This feels a bit odd, is there a goal here?

eager bay
#

Basically how they work is people ask them to grant wishes and they do so for a price

modest badger
#

This feels more like #homebrew or #dm-world-building . The number of slaves any creature might have feels very arbitrary to it's circumstances and probably shouldn't be a mechanical trait or such.

eager bay
#

I intend to use existing D&D monsters as examples

#

So, if anyone knows of any examples/estimates, that would be fabulous

jagged apex
#

if they are a matron mother, that would mean they typically are the leader of their house, so that may help if you know the population of drow within the house in question, else 2 seems reasonable enough in my opinion based on what we know in published materials

eager bay
#

6 is a religious number for this species

#

Thanks for the help

jagged apex
#

yeah if anything varies on the number of drow in said house, as rarely will the number of slaves be greater at least according to what is cited on the wiki

#

so as long as there is more than 6 drow belonging to that house, 6 indeed seems fine, when going off the established lore

#

and even then, the lore does leave room for such exceptions

#

not sure about the importance of the number 6, like to my knowledge there are no numbers of relgious importance to the drow, but i could easily be wrong

jagged apex
summer latch
#

Am I understanding this correctly or does Mystra not really actually control all magic, but just the access to the magic via the Weave? Like can she stop elves from using Elven High Magic since it's a different form of magic?

#

I'm just wondering, since Mystra put some limitations on magic over the years, what's stopping more people from using alternative forms of magic like elven high magic, rune magic, etc., which seems to be able to do stuff that Mystra has outlawed.

jagged apex
#

to my knowledge she can, just elves are massively less effected or hindered by the consequences of attempting epic magic than humans, plus those different forms of magic have limitations or restrictions of their own in one way or another

#

besides even elven high magic uses the weave as far as i am aware in the forgotten realms setting, but i could be wrong

eager bay
#

Does all magic come from the same weave, or do different eealms of wildspace have different magic?

sharp owl
#

It's....complicated/fuzzy

#

You like physics, don't you @eager bay? I ask because I might have a physics analogy that might help explain it

eager bay
sharp owl
#

Okay, well the weave is kinda like describing light in terms of photons; it's an accurate description for how magic behaves

#

However, like how you can also describe light as a wave, you can also describe magic in other ways

#

This is how the weave is tied to the Magic the Gathering settings where they instead use mana

#

Strixhaven goes into it a little more than that when talking about snarls in the fabric of magic

#

Across the multiverse, people describe magic differently, interact with it differently, and even interact with different aspects of it

#

The Weave is the name for a specific nature of that interaction in certain places, by certain people, or in certain ways

#

I hope that makes some sense?

spark haven
#

ayyy that's the same analogy i use

#

the weave is just a field/force, like electromagnetism

pine reef
#

what alternatives are there?

#

from what I know the Shadow Weave collapsed.

sharp owl
pine reef
sharp owl
#

No I'm not, I made no mention of Mystra, or the Shadow Weave

#

None of what you asked relatest to what I was explaining, which was not specifically about the Weave, but understanding how magic is conceptualised between settings

jagged apex
pine reef
sharp owl
#

I don't think you can tell me what is relevant to what I was explaining

iron saffron
#

Mystra controls magic in Realmspace. You can't bypass the use of magic without using the Weave which she controls. Shar tried to do this by creating the Shadow Weave, however, she ultimately failed when she killed Mystra and both the Weave and Shadow Weave were "destroyed" in the Spellplague.

sharp owl
#

I don't know anything specifically about Mystra or FR specific Weave workings

pine reef
#

correct, I was telling -you- what is relevant to -me-, which in this context, was my query related to magic, and you spoke how people use magic differently, interact with it differently, and my question how was one can interact with magic differently other than Mystra.

iron saffron
#

tl;dr You can use magic without using the Weave, which Mystra controls

pine reef
#

assuming my understanding of the weave is correct, and its basically the juice for your spells. without it, you can't cast.

jagged apex
#

that is not rally how magic works as mystra, in realmspace is also in charge of their magic technically

#

more like a filter so mortal's don't accidently blow themselves up any time they cast a spell, cuz raw magic is too dangerous for mortals to safely use usually, least that is my understanding

pine reef
#

so, from the way you describe it, Mystra is the patron of all casters, and all wizards/sorcerers/bards/etc cast through her? they cannot act safely by themselves so they cast through mystra?

#

just as a warlock can't actully cast without their patron?

jagged apex
#

though your line of thinking might be, key word MIGHT, possible in the case of a great old one warlock, but that is mainly cuz of the nature of some great old ones and the iffy nature of the far realm

jagged apex
#

if not sure still, i'd suggest investigated the way gods and their portfolios work, at least in regard to trying to understand how mystral controls magic with in realmspace and any theoretical ways of bypassing it, which to my knowledge none exist unless you were to simply travel to another setting perhaps

#

though most settings have their own gods of magic with their own rules of what they will and will not permit

modest badger
#

in 5e we have this lore:

Mortals can't directly shape this raw magic. Instead, they make use of a fabric of magic, a kind of interface between the will of a spellcaster and the stuff of raw magic. The spellcasters of the Forgotten Realms call it the Weave and recognize its essence as the goddess Mystra, but casters have varied ways of naming and visualizing this interface.
(...)
All magic depends on the Weave, though different kinds of magic access it in a variety of ways. The spells of wizards, warlocks, sorcerers, and bards are commonly called arcane magic. These spells rely on an understandingβ€”learned or intuitiveβ€”of the workings of the Weave. The caster plucks directly at the strands of the Weave to create the desired effect. Eldritch knights and arcane tricksters also use arcane magic. The spells of clerics, druids, paladins, and rangers are called divine magic. These spellcasters' access to the Weave is mediated by divine powerβ€”gods, the divine forces of nature, or the sacred weight of a paladin's oath.

And in SCAG:

The Weave is an essential element of the universe, running through everything in unseen threads. Some creatures, objects, and locations have deep, intrinsic ties to the Weave and can perform extraordinary feats that come naturally to them (a beholder's flight, a vampire's charming gaze, a dragon's breath weapon, and so forth).
(...)
**In two senses, both the metaphorical and the real, the goddess Mystra is the Weave. **She is its keeper and tender, but all three times the goddess of magic has died or been separated from her divinity (twice as Mystra, and once as her predecessor, Mystryl), magic has been twisted or has failed entirely.

#

So we know that Warlocks, Clerics, even creatures using supernatural abilities like a beholder's flight are all interactions with the Weave, which in turn is also the essence of Mystra.

#

Which is a curious thing. A cleric's magic both comes from their god, but is also still using the weave and so interacting with Mystra in FR

pine reef
#

and mortals cannot shape it at all, or it is just very difficult?

modest badger
#

Ah, left that bit out from the PHb quote but:

By any name, without the Weave, raw magic is locked away and inaccessible; the most powerful archmage can't light a candle with magic in an area where the Weave has been torn.

pine reef
#

What page is that?

iron saffron
jagged apex
modest badger
eager bay
#

How does Marid society work?

#

Like what's the difference between a noble Marid and a non-noble one?

jagged apex
#

honestly, you probably would not be able to tell since many would claim to be nobles

eager bay
#

Cool

jagged apex
#

at least none that is easily discernable to a non marid

eager bay
#

Why are gibbering mouthers neutral?

#

they have a 3 intelligence

eager bay
#

Like how gravity functions differently depnding on the mass of the celestial body?

jagged apex
#

to quote the players handbook "Neutral (N) is the alignment of those who prefer to steer clear of moral questions and don’t take sides, doing what seems best at the time.", and based on the nature of what warrants unaligned, a gibbering mouther despite it's average intelligence, still understands the concepts of morals and have a nature and moral outlook like any other intelligent creature such as a human

eager bay
#

It's got a three intelligence

jagged apex
iron saffron
#

It just wants to eat. It takes no sides to the ethics law-chaos axis or the moral good-evil axis. It just wants to eat as a sentient predator.

eager bay
#

that's equal to or lower than most unaligned creatures

jagged apex
#

int has nothing to do with alignment

eager bay
iron saffron
#

Beasts are unaligned because they have animal intelligence and not sentient/sapient to determine ethics/morals of alignments.

jagged apex
#

if you have nature and understand morals and have a moral outlook of the world, you have an alignment

#

and given the nature of gibbering mouthers depending on the ways historically they can be created and what the creature can do, you basically have the minds of numerous individuals trapped within that horrific mount of flesh and teeth

eager bay
#

So I'm talking about the fabric of magic in other areas of wildspace

#

Is it weaker in other areas of wildspace, like how gravity is weaker on other planets?

#

Or is it a constant?

jagged apex
eager bay
#

Because almost nothing is a constant

#

including time

jagged apex
#

the low int of a gibbering mouther is likely do to most of the mind of the victims being lost in the creature's innate madness

spark haven
# eager bay Or is it a constant?

Here's where we get into the murky waters of "this is all fake and made up to tell stories". The Weave is as strong or weak as the story needs it to be in the moment

jagged apex
eager bay
jagged apex
eager bay
#

Gravity is as strong or weak as it needs to be in areas for things to exist

magic jackal
#

the Weave is the name assigned to the mechanism of Magic in the Forgotten Realms, the mechanism remains similar across the Multiverse, the name differs.

spark haven
#

not...quite, but it's not really worth splitting hairs over since the gravity comparison isn't really coherent once you zoom in anyways

jagged apex
#

eh, not exactly, but in broad strokes, sure

magic jackal
#

It's like if another species on another planet had a different word for "Force" (in the Physics sense)

eager bay
magic jackal
#

(that's still a function of how magic works, the mechanism didn't change)

jagged apex
#

as what is known as the weave in the forgotten realms can be damaged, strained or even destroyed with enough strain or powerful magics used in quick succession long enough, earth canonically in the dnd multiverse is a massive dead magic zone, what would probably be called Sol-space, the wildspace system housing earth and presumably the rest of our solar system, not our reality of course, but dnd's version of it more or less

eager bay
#

I feel it's more like gravity. it exists everywhere, but in some areas it's essentially nonexistent

#

Gravity does exist in space

jagged apex
#

again, broad strokes, yes

eager bay
#

but it only exists around actual THINGS in space

jagged apex
#

honestly even in dnd it can really only be explained logically to a certain extent, is not gunna be able to be defined completely like anything in real world science

spark haven
#

that's what i'm getting at. the field analogy works to an extent

#

but this field isn't being governed by an equation

jagged apex
#

in dnd magic is a fundimental part of the cosmos, just like forces such as time, gravtity, ect...

spark haven
#

this field is governed by the whims of whichever human being is writing the story

#

it's governed by forces fully external to the universe

eager bay
spark haven
#

Nobody's really objecting to that, it's mostly your understanding of gravity

#

which isn't super germane to this channel so nobody's really bit into it

eager bay
#

Also, that could mean magic DOES exist in our universe, but is so weak we have no way of harnessing it

jagged apex
#

and again, yes, but is worth remembering only in broad strokes, the 2 are potentially a lot more different than they are similar

eager bay
#

Or have yet to figure out a way

magic jackal
#

They quite literally stated exactly this.

jagged apex
magic jackal
eager bay
# magic jackal .

they stated it was a dead magic zone. which I interpreted as there being no magic

#

What I am saying is it could be we have yet to have figured out how to harness magic

magic jackal
#

maybe go ahead and read what "dead magic zone" means in the link scarlet shared instead of jumping to conclusions

eager bay
magic jackal
#

okay? my point stands.

eager bay
#

A dead magic zone seems to indicate magic no longer exists in the area

#

Due to a wounding of the entirety of the fabric of magic

#

Wait

#

No, still seems to be the case

#

Can someone explain to me how dead magic zones work in detail?

#

Both the wiki and google are wildly unhelpful

magic jackal
#

Well first of all, more detail isn't necessarily going to exist, the game lore is purposefully ambiguous and doesn't go into exhaustive detail about everything.

#

Especially things that are effectively game mechanics.

#

Secondly, what's confusing you about it?

eager bay
#

earth has magic

magic jackal
#

(you don't have to ping me for everything, I'm in the conversation)

eager bay
jagged apex
modest badger
# eager bay Can someone explain to me how dead magic zones work in detail?

Basic Rules/PHB has this:

Whenever a magic effect is created, the threads of the Weave intertwine, twist, and fold to make the effect possible. When characters use divination spells such as detect magic or identify, they glimpse the Weave. A spell such as dispel magic smooths the Weave. Spells such as antimagic field rearrange the Weave so that magic flows around, rather than through, the area affected by the spell. And in places where the Weave is damaged or torn, magic works in unpredictable waysβ€”or not at all.

Which seems to be expanded upon in SCAG 'Weave-affecting Magic' on page 18, where it discusses the above spells and Dead magic zones and wild magic zones.
SCAG has a note on dead magic, for 5e, but it just explains what it does not what causes it:

Dead Magic. In rare areas of dead magic, the Weave is absent. Not only do spells and magic items cease to function, but even the supernatural abilities of creatures that are innately tied to the Weave might fail as the knot of the Weave they carry with them unravels.

eager bay
#

Nice

jagged apex
eager bay
#

I also want to thank you scarlet for the help

#

I get to keep hoping now

modest badger
#

And in older editions:

In some areas of Toril, the Weave is absent altogether. The Weave has a tear or hole, and the area effectively has no magic at all. Like the rare wild magic zones, many regions of dead magic were created during the Time of Troubles and have since faded or retreated. Dead magic zones often persist in places where extreme concentrations of magical power were abruptly scattered or destroyed - in the vicinity of a shattered mythal, at the spot where an artifact was broken, or at the scene of a god's death.
(3.5, Forgotten Realms Campaign setting, p.35)

#

Magic of Faerun had more rules for dead magic zones, such as how they interacted with Su and Sp abilities, how you noticed them and so on, and even possible ways to repair them (required big, big magic like wish/miracle and that only fixed a 30ft radius)

#

But for 5e, all we have is really what's in the basic rules and SCAG. dead and wild magic zones tended to be more a result of the time of troubles and spellplague and less encountered now.

jagged apex
#

or similar less than common phenomenon

#

as tasha's mentions some such things, namely unraveled magic

#

sort of the in between of a normal place of magic and a dead magic zone

eager bay
#

All I care is that magic exists in our universe

spark haven
#

Not quite the channel for that conversation

ionic rivet
#

Not even for the server really as it starts broaching religious topics.

#

Keep it D&D game focussed and we're good.

pure coral
#

Does Tiamat have any command over any devils of Avernus?

iron saffron
#

Yes, the abishai.

pure coral
jagged apex
#

he even goes into details the devils in service to her that command her armies, but the abishai are the ones that are loyal to her ultimately, at least to my knowledge

#

though apart from names, nothing seems to indicate those 3 infernal nobles are or are not abishai, but seems each of the armies they lead are abishai, no idea if this is concidence or not though

#

besides, the abishai are fairly diverse on their own, with each kind tied to a major type of chromatic dragon being more or less suited to certain roles

pure coral
#

Ah. Okay.
Was trying to plan a game for my brother and his girlfriend.

Wanted to do something with devils.

rough fractal
#

Question: at what point in the Greyhawk and FR timelines did the Greyhawk PCs and NPCs make their exodus to the Realms?

jagged apex
#

not really any sort of thing, just some over the years have visited, moved to, or otherwise been involved in the forgotten realms all at different points in time most likely

#

you'd have to more or less look into the history of each respective character you are curious about

#

like mordenkainen, last i checked his base of operations was a tower that traveled across the planes and sometimes he would chat with elminster, but not sure if this was necessarily on toril, but presumably when he had interacted with volo he was at least visiting toril

#

plus them being different worlds likely have different calanders and ways of keeping track of time, so the dates will likely be inconsistent with one another and really only be relevant to the setting the time would be listed for

#

plus is just as likely there is no specific dates, as sometimes things are just established as being "at some point"

pine reef
#

wasn't there a planet/place that the weave collapsed or something and mages took their magic from the elements and as a result whole planet got hit by bad weather?

#

I recall reading something about it a while ago but I forgot

cinder ravine
jagged apex
#

dark sun to my understanding never had a weave

#

the weave is specific to realmspace, and not ever setting makes it known what their equivilent if any is

cinder ravine
jagged apex
#

kickstarters tend to be 3rd party

cinder ravine
#

It is, yes. The OP said did not remember source. If it has to be official I still am going for Athas with a mislabeled the weave, because of the environmental aspect.

jagged apex
#

to my knowledge, athas relied on the gods to regulate magic, but they have long since abandoned that world/setting

cinder ravine
iron saffron
jagged apex
#

well sometimes writers for the realms and the like do kickstarters, but technically yeah

#

but to my knowledge the spellplauge had nothing to do with any setting apart from the forgotten realms

cinder ravine
#

Yeah it was only forgotten realms, and so is the weave right?

jagged apex
#

yes

#

but the whole mana like taking the energy for their magic from the land and the cosmos itself, to my knowledge that was the dark sun setting

iron saffron
#

Ed Greenwood publishes FR lore stuf fon DMs Guild stuff but it's not official (1st or 2nd party).

cinder ravine
jagged apex
#

honestly sounds like he skimmed a few settings and is mixing up details

pine reef
#

that's what I remember anywho

jagged apex
#

no, that is not something from any published setting, at least that i am aware of

pine reef
#

could be mistaken.

jagged apex
#

it sounds like you are mixing up dark sun and forgotten realms

cinder ravine
iron saffron
#

Don't bring that up here on this server because it'll stir the hornet's nest...

cinder ravine
#

and some of the topics are "problematic" in it

iron saffron
#

Anyway, back to D&D lore...

cinder ravine
#

Oh sorry was this only FR server?

jagged apex
#

no, is just was getting into more meta/product at that point and or was otherwise leaning towards a snowball effect

jagged apex
cinder ravine
#

oh right on, sorry was just trying to figure out that area. I am getting into how the Deep Gnomes interact with the Gnomish Pantheon right now.

jagged apex
#

well, that very much sounds like lore far as i can tell

cinder ravine
#

Yeah I think all of the underdark species interaction with their main pantheons is ripe for the pickings in storytelling.

#

well I guess Lolth has been done to death but...

jagged apex
#

well, some have their own separate ones

#

honestly, i feel lolth has been if anything too focused on, still plenty one can explore with the rest of the dark seldarine

#

is why it was neat back when we got it revealed that there are some drow that have avoided her influence and only recently are being made known to us, all be it that we still have very little info on them last i checked

cinder ravine
#

Seldarine drow?

jagged apex
cinder ravine
#

Oh nice, thank you, thank you.

glacial plover
#

Are there any symbiotic creatures in d&d lore?

jagged apex
#

i know that there are some magical items that are like that, mainly from eberron, but otherwise not that i am aware of

#

at least if you are thinking of symbiotic like say the klyntr from marvel comics

iron saffron
#

There are lots of parasitic monsters.

jagged apex
#

though parasitic =/= symbiotic

iron saffron
#

I know.

jagged apex
#

i'd consider the Gadabout from the spelljammer monstrous compendium, symbiotic

#

so there is at least that probably

#

there is the "Kyrzin's Ooze" magical item from eberron, which has the earlier mentioned symbiotic nature feature, though technically not classified as a creature, it does create one as detailed in it's mechanics

thorny hollow
#

What is the difference between a sorcerer and wizard? What are their majoring differences?
Would one be more studious than the other?
Would one have a greater connection to elements(earth, fire, wind, lightning etc.,)

jagged apex
#

innate magic/intuition in relation to magic vs one who studies and gets their practice of spells from study and practice down to a science for consistent or as consistent outcome as possible when casting the desired spell

#

sorcerer likely, given there is the storm soul sorcerer, but nothing could stop a person with a connection to the elements to become a wizard other than their own ability to study, learn, and practice/harness magic

#

like let's say for example Einstein's formula e=mc squared were the formula for the disintegration spell or the fabricate spell, that would be in line with how a wizard casts their spells, the formulas and incantations are within their spellbooks which they study regularly

#

were as a sorcerer just kind of has the magic within them or as a sort of subconscious knowledge on how to just reach into the weave or magic and pull out the desired spell in relation to some spells

#

hopefully that helps

thorny hollow
#

I see, thank you for the very informative response! It does indeed help.

iron saffron
#

Wizards learn to control magic through study.
Sorcerers are innately gifted with magic ability.

meager lotus
#

Does a map of the island of Orlumbor or the primary city on it exist somewhere? Making a campaign that starts there. I found some lore info about it on the wiki but no map

#

I saw that an ancient AD&D video game takes place there but I don't know if that helps at all.

jagged apex
#

there is at least the one on the wiki

meager lotus
pine reef
#

what is the origin of Tanar'ri demons? were they created by Obyriths from souls of mortals, and then their creation nearly made them extinct?

white ravine
#

Pretty much. Made as soldiers to try and conquer reality.

pine reef
jagged apex
#

treachery

#

and was not really them who were fighting, basically the tanari became too vast and dethroned the obyriths, for lack of a better term, as the ruling class of demons, especially once miska the wolf spider was sealed away after the queen of chaos betrayed the original prince of demons and demogorgon later came in and nabbed the title

pine reef
#

are they technically aberrations?

iron saffron
#

They're the original demons from the Abyss.

pine reef
#

the abyss was created through their manipulation by the chained god via the shard of pure evil which they sent to our universe.

#

there was no abyss until they became the arhitects of it.

jagged apex
iron saffron
#

https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Obyrith#History,_Rumors,_and_Legends

According to legend, the obyriths had been despicable lords of evil incarnate long before mortal life forms and even the deities they worshiped had come to exist, but not in the reality they eventually found themselves in. Long ago, obyriths were the masters of a forgotten realm past the cosmos, the name of their ancient domain having been lost to time, but while technically the rulers of this reality, the obyriths were prisoners of their own actions. The vile fiends had destroyed their universe, draining the dimension of life and power to feed their dark hunger and turning whatever it once was into a decaying world of crumbling ruins.

jagged apex
#

like according to this, back in their day, if you thought the abyss currently was horrifying, you'd die of sheer terror looking at the og state of the abyss, or go insane, or maybe even both

#

like there has always been this far realm like element to the abyss, seems it was potentially much more prominent and strong in the original incarnation back when it first formed, kind of explains why the abyss is sort of semi-sapient to where when a layer was torn from it, it retaliated violently and murdered the pantheon of gods who did the tearing

jagged apex
pine reef
jagged apex
#

yeah, tharizdun was intended to place it in the astral plane where it would give them rule over the cosmos, though for one reason or another, he instead planted it in the elemental chaos

#

the tanari demons, more so the demon lords, largely wanna destroy the rest of the cosmos but for their own reasons

#

supposedly when the abyss makes a being a demon lord, it influences them towards this end goal of destruction of the multiverse, doing so in a way that makes sense to the demon lord in question and that they can for lack of a better term rationalize

iron saffron
#

And gain godhood.

jagged apex
#

which often tends to go to make that end goal of destruction easier and come sooner

#

one thing i love about orcus is that he basically wound up denying himself the chance of true godhood ever again back during his time as tenebrous, and later resurrection to his og state as a demon lord, has seemingly ensured his continued existences until the natural heat death of the multiverse, so if anything in his regard, his plans to wipe out all other life, save for mindless undead that can be mere extensions of his will, and enjoy that peace and silence he wants from the lack of all other life and intelligent unlife, is just to get there sooner, makes him so interesting to me

#

so far as we know he will potentially get what he wants, he just doesn't wanna wait that long

pine reef
#

from that article you posted The Queen of Chaos seems to still be alive, she wasn't killed. Dagon too runs around. why neither of them used the Shard of Pure Evil as a weapon? I mean, Asmodeus went through great lengths just to take a chunk of it to fashion into a rod, which presumably augments his powers considerably.

with few remaining Obyrith why none of them weaponized the shard that's literally in their realm, the Abyss?

jagged apex
#

she is, but miska was the figure head every thing was rallied behind

jagged apex
pine reef
jagged apex
#

infinitely burrowing downwards

#

it is not staying in one place long enough for anyone to grab it, and you can't just teleport to where it is gunna be cuz those layers will not exist yet until the shard passes through

#

plus even if it did, far too many of powerful beings would be fighting over it, to where the moment one touched it someone'd probably murder them and take it for themselves or try to at least

#

is not really something that you can really just take, let alone weaponized, else demogorgon or one of the other demon lords would have grabbed it and absorbed it to become more or less all powerful long ago

#

and on a somewhat related note, i imagine even if they did somehow succeed and fought their way all the way to asmodeus' layer of hell, he'd easily wreck them, especially in present day

iron saffron
#

Asmodeus does have a sliver of the Shard of Ultimate Evil as part of his Ruby Rod.

jagged apex
#

but some lore implies the blood war is the way it is by asmodeus' own design, is why it is constantly on going and why sometimes when he meets with his generals, he deliberately misinforms them on what points of interest to take, he is for what ever his reason may be, deliberately doing everything he can to keep the blood war in a constant stalemate

pine reef
#

why?

jagged apex
#

so asmodeus would probably prevent them from getting even past avernus

jagged apex
#

heck, to my knowledge his generals don't know they are being lied to at all

pine reef
#

I thought that he wanted to win, to get the rest of the shard of pure evil

jagged apex
#

that is if anything what he wanted you to think

#

depending on the origin, the whole point of asmodeus, the devils, and their right to claim souls, is to keep the demons at bay and contained as possible via the blood war, being the forces of law's black ops team more or less, doing things so vile the gods would not be willing to do themselves, at least back towards the begining around the time of or the end of the war between law and chaos

#

which was largely just the forces of law vs the abyss

jagged apex
#

if the gods in the dnd multiverse are playing 3d chess, asmodeus is playing like 9d chess, and that is probably a low balled estimate

#

is why canonically has everybody, save for himself and potentially one other being, uncertain about which origin is his true origin

serene crater
runic totem
#

Was Shar against life existing, and how long were selune and her enemies

#

Like when did it start

jagged apex
#

she was more against the light that was provided by the igniting of the sun

#

like that was the point of infighting as i understand it with her attempting to extinguish it

#

leading into what is listed as the war of light and darkness

#

putting early life in harms way was more of a side affect to what she was intentionally trying to do

rough fractal
#

As someone introduced to D&D through 5th edition, most of my knowledge of the Realms is Chult and the Sword Coast. I'm currently running a game in The Dalelands, but what areas of the Realms would you suggest running adventures in during the 1350s for someone trying to explore it a little more?

grim siren
#

I am really big on the unapproachable east. Rashemen, Thesk, Aglarond, and Thay

#

Rashemen, Thay, and the Great Dale all have hard backs for 5e on DMsGUILD

rugged rivet
#

Excuse me everyone, where does the giants of the star forge take place? I assume forgotten realms but what general location on toril?

rough fractal
iron saffron
rough fractal
#

Oh crazy, okay. So most conflicts in the Dalelands are political, but Great Dale conflicts are about The Balance?

iron saffron
#

The Dalelands are cooperative farm towns.
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Dalelands#Government

...representatives from each dale would meet together once a year in Midwinter to discuss issues related to trade, relations with other nations, and inter-border disputes at the Dales Council. While the debates would often dissolve into pointless arguing and bickering, in the face of a common foe, such as attempted annexations by Sembia or the discovery of Zhentarim schemes, the dales would band together as a unified force. The council could also be called in the face of an emergency that threatened the region as a whole

runic tiger
#

Are there sub-Circles for Druids?

Like, if you're Circle of the Moon, you're not going to gather with every Moon druid in Faerun every month. There's gotta be local chapters, especially for the other Circles.

A Circle of Land (forest) druid wouldn't be worried about all forests, just his or her own, I would think.

So how are smaller groups broken out from the main Circles? What would local chapters be called?

iron saffron
#

Seems like something that would be setting specific.

#

Circle of the X is a sub-class and that's a gameplay mechanic.

#

There weren't sub-classes pre-5E remember.

runic tiger
#

Perhaps I phrased it poorly. Trying to figure out what the regional druidic groupings are for Forgotten Realms.

I know of Emerald Enclave, but there must be others.

iron saffron
runic tiger
#

Awesome, thanks

maiden mortar
#

Okay so... Reigar bit in Spelljammer says they're all about war and art but... what do they actually -do-?

jagged apex
maiden mortar
#

tyvm

pine reef
#

It is specified that Devils need sleep eventually, but what about Demons?

jagged apex
#

to my knowledge no such info is given, but can be presumed all extra planar life have some degree of similarity to how they work

#

presumably unless they have a feature that says they don't require it, can assume they need some in some capacity, though to my understanding is usually much less than what mortals need

#

at least going off what i have heard the likes of AJ pickett mention about devils and their need to breath, all be it less than mortals, so presumably any needed things their bodies require likely would be lower than what mortals need as well, though that is more of a guess on my part

iron saffron
#

Top of my head demons don't need to eat, drink, or sleep. (I don't want to drag out my Demononicron book)

#

It doesn't mean they can't. They can eat, drink, and sleep because it suits them.

jagged apex
#

it is implied they can given that the gate town of the abyss, Plague-Mort has farm lands of it's own in 5e planescape, as the citizens are noted as consisting of both demons and humanoids

#

and none of the text about it indicates that it is just for the humanoid residents

#

so all things considered seems likely that demons would also need sleep at some point, but when and for how long would likely be unspecified or at least would be massively less than the amount of time they can spend active without detrimental effects

iron saffron
#

I would have to go back to the 2E Planescape books to look it up but I'm playing Overwatch 2 right now

#

From 2E Planescape: Faces of Evil:
Devils need to eat (they prefer to eat good-aligned creatures) and sleep.

Demons do eat (meat) but it's more of the terror of their victims they feed on. It's not sure if they really need to eat food as mortals do. They also don't seem to need to sleep.

#

Remember that devils are created from mortal souls (who start off as lemures) while demons are created from the Abyss itself.

jagged apex
#

though not all devils are made from mortal souls, though those are special cases like zariel

#

and some demons are also made from mortal souls

#

but given in 5e they often give a feature to a creature that notes if they don't require, food, drink, or sleep, in 5e while it is not out right addressed, it would imply they do need to

iron saffron
#

Β―_(ツ)_/Β―

jagged apex
#

just seems likely that the amount they need is drastically less than a mortal's need, and likely can go longer without issue before needing to rest or sleep, which as i mentioned before is probably drastically less than the amount of time they can remain active for without exhaustion

#

so it seems like one of those things in the lore, at least after 2e that is left deliberately vague and unclear

#

and from what i found when trying to find an answer, that thing in 2e was both different to what it said about the subject in 1e and 3e

#

at the very least it is likely more accurate to say they rest rather than sleep

#

kind of like how elves are able to rest without having to sleep in the traditional sense

#

effectively sticking to light activity if any, otherwise simply sitting or laying there in place for a period of time

iron saffron
#

2E Planescape: Faces of Evil didn't outright say demons don't need sleep but rather the narrator/author says that he has yet to witness a demon sleep.

jagged apex
#

which said narrator/author likely was a mortal

iron saffron
#

No.

jagged apex
#

really? out of curiosity what where they?

iron saffron
#

I stand corrected. Ice the Thrice-Born is a tiefling

jagged apex
#

the monsters of the multiverse version of the alkilith having the unusual nature feature would imply that demons without that trait still require air, food, drink, or sleep in some capacity

iron saffron
#

The unusual nature trait is inconsistent. I wish WotC would just give general traits to a creature type instead of retyping it for each creature of that type (see Undead nature trait)

#

The shadow demon has the unusual nature but no other MM demons.

jagged apex
#

technically a variation of it, but either way from what i can find, my comparison to elven trance seems like the most likely indication since nothing in 5e seems to indicate that they don't need it in any capacity outside of those with traits that explicitly say so

thorny hollow
#

What are some well known, prominent, powerful wizards within the setting?

iron saffron
#

Which setting?

thorny hollow
#

Whichever, ones that pop into your head when you hear β€œwizard”

iron saffron
#

That's vague.

thorny hollow
#

I dont know any settings.

#

Thought dnd was dnd

iron saffron
#

No, D&D is the game.
Setting is the place.

jagged apex
#

in regards to the forgotten realms an easy one is Elminster, and greyhawk has the likes of Mordenkainen and Iggwilv

#

but yeah, dnd has many settings and thus many, many worlds

pine reef
#

that's an interesting question. what are some of the most powerful wizards/sorcerers in late 15th century Faerun? Elminster I think its too old and not capable of much anymore.

#

Szass Tam I can think off, albeit he's a Lich.

#

Mordenkainen seems to be active and well in 1490s

unkempt merlin
#

Elminster still applies.

iron saffron
#

Laeral Silverhand of Waterdeep (her powers were greatly diminished in 5E compared to her previous editions' stats where she was an epic-level spellcaster).

#

Then there's Vajra Safahr, the current Blackstaff of Waterdeep.

pine reef
#

If a Demon Prince attacks another in the Abyss for one reason or another, and one Demon Prince gets slain in the Abyss, they fall under the same rule as any other demon, they die permanently? We're talking about Yeenoghu.

iron saffron
#

I looked up my 3E Fiendish Codex: Hordes of the Abyss, regarding demons needing to eat, breathe, and sleep:

Eating: Demons do not need to eat. That said, a demon can consume endless quantities of food (of any sort), and they often take a particular joy in devouring sacrifices, especially gory or disgusting ones. Demons have even been known to consume tons of food ina single sitting, with no effect or consequence, leaving much debate about where the food actually goes. The most common theory is that their link to the Abyss somehow transports the food back to their home plane, but no one has yet brought forward any proof of this.

Breathing: While they must breathe, demons have extremely strong lungs, built to withstand a range of environments, including the most deadly fumes of the Abyss, which would kill most Material Plane creatures. As such, demons can easily breathe in any natural Material Plane atmospheres.

Sleeping: Demons do not require sleep to function normally. However, powerful individuals occasionally do force them into sleeplike states, and demons can even be rendered unconscious, though not easily. A demon can choose to fall asleep (which it would normally only do for deceitful purposes), but it gains no benefit from doing so.

iron saffron
pine reef
eager bay
#

So, is greyhawk part of D&D, and if so how deep is their underdark?

iron saffron
#

D&D is the game.
Greyhawk is a campaign setting (originally created by Gary Gygax).

iron saffron
pine reef
#

So what happens if you slay a demon lord in the Abyss. Found their stats and their challenge rating is between 24 to 26

#

Do they reform instantly?

eager bay
robust swallow
#

I’m not sure I understand that question. It’s kind of like asking β€œhow high is the surface world?”

eager bay
#

But idk if the book it came from says otherwise

robust swallow
#

Are you asking what its deepest point is? Like the equivalent of the highest mountain?

hollow raptor
#

The Underdark can go as deep as the molten one of the w old you are playing in (if it has a molten core). In some places the Underdark actually crosses into the Shadow fell so it technically could be said there is no deepest point.

magic jackal
#

This is the lore channel so we're asking about official sources here.

#

And they're asking about the Underdark *in Greyhawk, which isn't identical to the Underdark in the Forgotten Realms iirc.

modest badger
#

Greyhawk lore on such is bit difficult to get. We have Vault of the Drow (1e), Dead Gods (2e) and Drow of the Underdark (3e) as some official sources on greyhawk underoerth (usually only the vault of the drow and surrounding areas), but neither state the exact depth of the underoerth other than it being deep.
In Dungeoneer's Survival guide (1e), p.67 which could be Greyhawk, but was more setting agnostic, it says:

Distance from the Surface: The subterrenean reaches extend from the entrances to carvens, tunnels, mines and ventilation shafts on the surface to the deepest hollowed-out regions of the Underdark. The exact depth of the lowest areas is unknown, but can be measured in tens of miles. The characteristics of a given area are determined to a great extent by how far below the surface it lies.
Least to my knowledge.

storm dagger
#

In in the demon entry in the monster manual

jagged apex
#

though this is a bit of a double edge sword, as if someone gets their hands on it they have massive leverage against that demon lord

#

honestly though i'd imagine most demon lords flee before they risk dying, and even rarely engage in direct combat with one another, usually sending their forces against one another from what i am aware of

teal wharf
#

Within Faerun, what nation would be the equivalent to Ireland?

jagged apex
#

not sure there is one, geologically, maybe the moonshae isles?, but even that is iffy

#

is a bit hard honestly as nothing is one to one and any analogs to real world cultures were not originally intended and were things put in by other writters over the years

storm dagger
jagged apex
royal marsh
#

So if you were to create a "Dark Three" (3 gods of darkness) who would you put in it? I got Shar and Lolth, but I can't figure out who would be the 3rd member.

magic jackal
#

Well there's already a "Dead Three"

#

So any of them would fit, then there's Vecna ofc

snow laurel
#

Star Moth spelljammers are grown from plants; is it thus possible for a druid to cast awaken on the ship?

modest badger
#

Being grown from plants isn't the same as being a plant. Wood is grown from plants, but druids can't awaken most furniture. Star moths are still constructed vehicles, both RAW and from their text, rather than truely living plants like a tree or shrub.

#

Star moths are ships **constructed **and flown by astral elves, who don't like it when these ships end up in the hands of others.

A star moth's hull is fashioned from a grown and sculpted organic substance, and its enormous, decorative wings are made of shimmering crystal.
in 5e. In older editions the boundary was a little more vague as elven crafts would continue to 'grow' and were in a sense bio-organic ships that could die. But they were the actual starfly plant itself, but grown from it using secret elven techniques.

#

The Gadabout could be though, as that truely was a plant creature, and thus RAW and lore a target for Awaken.

#

Gadabouts are gentle, winged creatures that can be used as personal conveyances for short-distance travel across the airless void of Wildspace. A gadabout wraps its branches around a Humanoid creature, spreads its butterfly wings, and allows its wearer to fly through space in a continuously refreshed air envelope.
5e, Monstrous Compendium Volume 1: Spelljammer Creatures

jagged apex
jagged apex
#

closest would have been Myrkul who's portfolio contains dusk

thorny hollow
#

Is there a setting with a strong sailor/pirate/seaside vibe?

iron saffron
#

Greyhawk and Forgotten Realms have oceans.

#

There are no specific official campaign setting dedicated to sailor/pirate/sea

unkempt merlin
#

Exandria has the Menagerie Coast and multiple other ocean based locals

jagged apex
#

not to my knowledge, but there are parts of existing settings, like in the forgotten realms with the sea of fallen stars, that place has a strong presence of pirates last i checked

#

otherwise only dedicated setting to pirate stuff i know of is some third party thing

iron saffron
#

My current campaign is pirates-themed set around Tashluta and later around the Chult Peninsula.

#

As long as there's a body of water and coastal settlements you can have a naval/pirates campaign.

jagged apex
#

both which involve chult in some capacity

#

personally i'd go with the sea of fallen stars, they literally had history with pirate wars, and that is pretty neat to me if looking for a place in the realms for a very pirate like campaign

#

but if you don't mind mixing themes and elements, can easily make spelljammer a multiworld/setting based pirate campaign

#

like i am aware of no reason why there could not be spelljamming pirates, especially when we literally got vampire piriates in 5e spelljammer

jagged apex
#

πŸ˜›

eager bay
#

Are there any descriptive sources on the hierarchy of Mountain Dwarves (like the titles of the leaders, second in-charge, etc)?

jagged apex
#

good place to start, including checking the sources cited

iron saffron
#

There's also the 2E The Complete Book of Dwarves if you want a more detailed look at the dwarven peoples.

jagged apex
#

and look for anything that mentions shield dwarves, as those are the mountain dwarves as the wiki mentions

iron saffron
#

Shield dwarves are just the name of mountain dwarves in the Forgotten Realms setting.

eager bay
eager bay
#

Right so the only title I can see in any source is "King", so would the main leading family of a clan follow typical monarchy type titles (with Lords and the like)?

tranquil heron
#

Can you willingly leave Sigil, or are you stuck there if you enter?

unkempt merlin
#

If you leave by one of the approved methods yea you are fine

tranquil heron
#

What approved methods exist?

spark haven
#

aren't there a bunch of portals? isn't that the whole gimmick of the place?

tranquil heron
#

I'm aware of the portals, but I was wondering if there are other methods.

unkempt merlin
#

Portals and iirc approved usage of teleportation circles in the city.

grim siren
#

And for portals iirc they only operate with specific keys.

They don't call it The Cage for nothing

jagged apex
#

the lady of pain can control all the portals in sigil on a whim, thus it's nickname of the cage, as she can instantly lock it down if she so chose to

#

but i am not aware of anything suggesting she can do this only in relation to an individual, as those who are inidividuals and earn her wrath are usually tossed into one of her infamous mazes

tranquil heron
#

Okay. Can nearly any race be placed in sigil?

jagged apex
#

literally only beings not allowed in sigil are gods and their avatars

#

literally any other creature in the multiverse is allowed in

#

so long as they don't cause trouble in sigil and or attract the lady of pain's attention

#

is a reason this artwork was one of the pieces used in promotional material up to the 5e incarnation's release

#

one thing i just noticed is a yeti seems to be selling some sort of beverage and an ice cream to a dwarf, and i just find that funny cuz of the yeti's typical role and behavior in the likes of the forgotten realms

unkempt merlin
jagged apex
#

if it knows how to use a portal and is not a god of the avatar of a god, it can enter sigil

unkempt merlin
#

It doesn't even need to know how to use a portal

#

Random portals open into sigil and things fall in all the time

jagged apex
#

good point, besides is not like some portals are even that hard to use, usually just at least require walking through it

tranquil heron
#

What are your favorite factions?

jagged apex
tranquil heron
#

Even if it's specific to Sigil?

spark haven
#

yeah because now you're just asking for opinions

jagged apex
#

and ones rooted in opinion rather than lore

tranquil heron
#

Ah, makes sense.

storm dagger
storm dagger
jagged apex
#

that would be dark in a different context

versed carbon
#

How strong are the arch fey especially the ones that makes deals with warlocks

maiden mortar
#

MTG gods would be the equivalent of Lower rank deities by D&D's measure for the most part, right?

jagged apex
#

depends, it would be unclear

jagged apex
#

so at least on par with angels and some demons lords would be a fairer measuring stick

jagged apex
restive summit
#

Where can i read more about the General of Gehenna?

jagged apex
#

not much info on them though, likely by design as is the case with several beings or aspects of dnd

#

alternatively, would suggest checking the sources cited, as some additional context may be provided

maiden mortar
jagged apex
jagged apex
#

a greater deity, would not be able to slay a greater deity in such a manner that would actually matter

jagged apex
#

deities from the mtg settings in other settings, especially proper dnd ones, would be considered interloper deities

#

but you basically would have to try to compare their power and every detail possible to dnd's own standards and detailing of how the gods work, any statements of power in the mtg universe are not relevant, plus they almost universally would have a massive loss in power from the transition if they just set up in a new setting

pine reef
iron saffron
#

Demigods are divine rank 0 are the are the weakest of the deities. They don't have avatar/aspects.

untold blaze
#

Do waterdeep still ruling by masked lords ?

sharp owl
#

As of the latest information we have on Waterdeep (Waterdeep: Dragon Heist), yes

drowsy wraith
#

We don't have much on the gods for Ixalan either but the bat one wasn't very impressive so they are probably all demigods too

jagged apex
unkempt merlin
#

There is a demigod that can be fought in 5e

#

But also demigods are on the same level as Titans and Vestiges. They are only quasideities

#

Ie: generally have divine origins and could become gods but aren't

jagged apex
#

but again to my knowledge those need to still be killed in their divine domains to die in a meaningful way, which unlike higher ranked deities are somewhere on the material plane

unkempt merlin
#

That page does contradict the most recent definitions as per 5e. As demigods are firmly defined as quasideities

jagged apex
#

that is cuz the term is used twice

unkempt merlin
#

Quasi-deities have a divine origin, but they don't hear or answer prayers, grant spells to clerics, or control aspects of mortal life. They are still immensely powerful beings, and in theory they could ascend to godhood if they amassed enough worshipers. Quasi-deities fall into three subcategories: demigods, titans, and vestiges.

jagged apex
unkempt merlin
#

Not recently

jagged apex
#

that is the one cited from 5e

unkempt merlin
#

Yes. And the demigod page still directly contradicts it. The demigod page just says it is choosing to ignore that

jagged apex
#

still, to my knowledge at least from what i can tell, is possible that a demigod/quasi deity still needs to die in their divine domain in order to truly die in a meaningful way, otherwise there seems to be little to no information on how they function in relation to gods of various ranks

#

but even if players at 20th level could reasonably kill a demigod i'd imagine it would not be an easy task and could be iffy if it would be able to be killed in a meaningful way, as in 5e the main example i am aware of you can defeat and kill, but it is not in a meaniful way, will not specify as could be considered a spoiler for that adventure if i did

#

granted, i could be wrong on either of these, but this is just me going off what i know and what i could find just now

unkempt merlin
#

Quasi deities aren't guaranteed to have a domain

#

Remember, this includes titans and vestiges as well

#

Krakens and Empyreans are Titans (among others). Creations of gods

#

Heck, the Tarrasque

jagged apex
#

fair, guess could presume that those without domains established would lack that requirement, but those without them i doubt would have a divine spark, which those kind of demigods i think are what he was asking about

#

as otherwise they likely would have asked about a specific creature or one of those other terms

unkempt merlin
#

In regards to the MTG gods. We know the Theros ones are more than demigods per 5e

maiden mortar
eager bay
jagged apex
#

not really

eager bay
#

They're probably too busy trying not to die instead of getting worshipped

unkempt merlin
jagged apex
modest badger
jagged apex
#

and from my knowledge, historically, the requirements for becoming a god, at the lowest level, required being beyond 20th level

#

a divine soul sorcerer would likely be a sort of anomaly, and be outside of even the demigod classification and it's various kinds that swamp listed earlier

#

else i'd imagine they would be the weakest of demigods if they did fall into that classification, like only probably qualifying because of that divine connection, as weak as it is

unkempt merlin
jagged apex
#

my point is odds are demigod > 20th level divine soul sorcerer, at least if i had to guess based on my own knowledge on them

modest badger
#

Older editions did allow for 'quasi-dieties' who were ascended mortals (Like Keoghtom or Heward of magic Item fame, or Murlynd) which became somewhat interchangable with hero-dieities (Kelanan) in 1e, and in later editions this interchangability became more encoded (like in 3.5 : "Rank 0 Creatures of this rank are sometimes called quasi-deities or hero deities. Creatures that have a mortal and a deity as parents also fall into this category. ").

But in 5e we really don't have a lot, and each edition can take drastically different approaches to the structure of divinity.

jagged apex
#

plus the flavor text/lore of the divine soul sorcerer implies that power is not do to a divine spark of one's own given at least one of examples given

pine reef
#

There is however beyond level 20 in 5e no? It's called epic levels in a supplement book from 20 to 30.

jagged apex
#

no

#

at least not officially

#

in 5e, the cap of a mortal, especially playable, is 20th level, there are things like boons and what not

pine reef
modest badger
#

Not for 5e

pine reef
#

Thats not official?

#

I just googled it and it's on amazon

modest badger
#

I've not heard of that one. Epic Level Handbook from 3.X is a thing, but not for 5e

pine reef
#

This is the Epic Legacy Core Rulebook, the ultimate guide to Epic levels for everyone’s favorite 5th Edition roleplaying game.

modest badger
#

3rd party

#

Not official.

pine reef
#

Aha OK.

spark haven
#

yeah this is a subject famously not covered by 5e's core rules

jagged apex
#

that is 3rd party, you can tell by the artwork from such a search alone

spark haven
#

or perhaps notoriously

#

dealer's choice

jagged apex
#

but that is leaning towards more mechanics or meta than lore

modest badger
#

On that note, Epic Boons do have this fun note:

Whatever boon a character ends up with, consider its place in your story and world. Many of the boons are extraordinary and **represent the gradual transformation of a character into something resembling a demigod. **

pine reef
spark haven
#

of course they'd leave that thread there and then promptly forget about it

modest badger
#

So there is some foundation in 5e for ascendeding to 'something resembling' a quasi-deity

modest badger
spark haven
#

I'd bet a few bucks on no character in-fiction ever actually saying "Spell Slot"

jagged apex
#

(in 5e, usually if a character reaches that level of power, they become an npc and thus the way they are build changes a lot)

modest badger
#

We have mortals ascending to godhood in a few ways, either through narrative events like time of troubles and the tablets (the adventurer Midnight becoming Mystra), or through just ascending in legend (and because the players were bro's with Gygax, or just sheer nepotism because they were Gygax's characters) like Keoghtom, Heward, Murlynd, or through what ever complicated system 3.5 had which I'd need to look into again, or that single line in 5e's Epic Boons.

jagged apex
#

so even if you still apply the possibilities from past editions, they ain't gunna be a PC anymore

#

though godhood is a lot harder these days at least in the forgotten realms as lord Ao has to approve any would be new gods, before time of troubles gods could sponsor mortals to godhood from what i am aware

modest badger
#

I vaguely recall Raistlin managed to do it in Dragonlance as well, but that was considered a very bad idea by pretty much everyone involved including the other gods and I'm pretty sure they ended up yeeting Tasslhoff back in time to retcon it.

#

Meanwhile Greyhawk has mortals turned gods aplenty and doesn't seem to care Lorewise.

jagged apex
#

last i heard of a mortal in dragonlance having attempted godhood it caused the cataclysm, at least according to "DRAGONLANCE: SHADOW OF THE DRAGON QUEEN" when it is recapping/reestablishing the setting for 5e

modest badger
#

That might have been Raistlin.

jagged apex
#

dude is seemingly just reffered to as "kingpriest"

modest badger
#

Ohh okay, different dude. I recall him.

#

Yeah, Dragonlance gods don't like uppity mortals.

jagged apex
#

one mortal gets too big for his britches and the majority of the planet pays the price

modest badger
#

Kingpriest attempted and had pretty much his entire culture smited down by all the gods, who then gave mortals a cold shoulder, and Raistlin actually succeeded and caused even worse things to happen until the retconned the timeline.

jagged apex
#

with the reintroduction of time dragons, i wonder if this Raistlin guy's story if intact for the 5e continuity, involved a time dragon, would not surprise me

modest badger
#

I vaguely recall one edition of dragonlance actually lowering the level cap and making that diegetic, just to stop mortals getting too uppity.

jagged apex
#

cuz that literally sounds like a plugged in version of one of the story beats suggested along side their 5e lore

#

plugged in meaning details added based on a plot or setting

modest badger
#

Player charactes in other worlds to unlimited levels, but not in Krynn. Once a player character advances beyond 18th level, the gods of Krynn feel that it is time to reassign him to some other world. Fortunately for the lovers of Krynn, advancement beyond 18th level is not mandatory. Your PC has the unique ability to refuse such advancement (and thereby stay within the world of Krynn). It is up to you.
Dragonlance Adventures, p.13, 1e, 1987

#

You choose to get too high level and start becoming a risk, the gods will yeet you.

pine reef
jagged apex
#

Ao only has sway over forgotten realms

#

other settings like dragonlance are not bound by his rules and he does not care about

#

basically are outside his jurisdiction

modest badger
#

Okay, from the wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raistlin_Majere#Legends

Raistlin travelled backwards through time to just before the Cataclysm, during the reign of the Kingpriest. Challenging the still-living Fistandantilus, Raistlin wins the duel and steals the archmage's identity, memories, and life force. The white wizard Par-Salian sent Caramon, cleric of Paladine Crysania and by accident the kender, Tasslehoff Burrfoot to the same time period in a desperate attempt to stop him. The presence of Tasslehoff horrifies Par-Salian, as unlike humans, elves, ogres and dragons, kender are capable of changing time.
_Kender. _

So Yes, least in one timeline, Raistlin manages to travel to that cataclysm, actually succeed where the Kingpriest failed, and bad things happen, because Raistlin tries to kill off all the other gods too, but isn't actually a true god and is incapable of creating new life so is the slow death of the Krynn universe.

Until Tasslehoff manages to go 'Oh right, I can time travel' and stops that from happening by telling Raistlin it's a bad idea, but it definitely made the gods wary.

pine reef
#

Gotcha. Makes sense.

modest badger
#

I have so many questions about Dragonlance, but I'm just going to stick to knowing it purely through that one movie and the russian musical, because trying to make sense of the above is hurting my head.

jagged apex
#

if you do try to understand it, would probably be better to learning one incarnation by reading the associated materials

#

cuz even with more commonly used settings like the forgotten realms consolidating lore across editions often gets messy, even after wizards came out and said that each edition was it's own continuity effectively

sharp owl
#

Wizards hasn't said anything like that
Edit: I stand corrected, I misunderstood what was being said and Wizards has said something to that effect

jagged apex
#

i thought they did a while back when addressing canon?

#

ah, my bad

sharp owl
grim siren
#

This is probably what you are referring to from that link

Every edition of the roleplaying game has its own canon as well. In other words, something that might have been treated as canonical in one edition is not necessarily canonical in another. For example, the succubus was classified as a devil in fourth edition, even though it had been a demon in previous editions.

sharp owl
#

This is from the section titled "EVERY EXPRESSION OF D&D HAS ITS OWN CANON"

#

yay caps

#

Our studio treats D&D in much the same way that Marvel Studios treats its properties. The current edition of the D&D roleplaying game has its own canon, as does every other expression of D&D. For example, what is canonical in fifth edition is not necessarily canonical in a novel, video game, movie, or comic book, and vice versa. This is true not only for lore but art as well.

#

What is stated in this section is not that each edition is a parallel canon, but simply what is stated to be canon in one edition is not implicitly canon in other editions and may be changed

modest badger
#

I get what Scarletstream meant though, in that each edition is it's own canon in a sense, but there is a continuity between editions. It's just.. messy.

sharp owl
#

Also important to note that the following section is

It can also be said that every campaign that’s ever been run in any of our published settings has its own canon.

grim siren
#

the TLDR is:

We can and probably will retcon stuff. There is just too much weight and too many hands.

sharp owl
grim siren
sharp owl
#

@jagged apex I misunderstood you so I've changed my comment, apologies

jagged apex
#

is ok, no harm done

modest badger
#

But I am definitely aware of the chaos of trying to learn lore from multiple editions, but for Dragonlance I will continue to only really know it through the bad movie, the non-official russian musical, and the terrible comics and I'm sure my understanding of Dragonlance will thusly horrify any true Dragonlance fan and I'm okay with inciting that horror.

sharp owl
#

The narrative design of Dragonlance lore is very different from other settings

grim siren
#

Funnily enough I remember the early early days of the Realms where they did not know if the Realms would take off even to the point of saying DRAGONLANCE on the back cover instead of FORGOTTEN REALMS

#

Ed Greenwood at Gen Con this year talked about the differences between Dragonlance and Realms. He said, Dragonlance was designed to be an epic adventure story that other players could adventure in. It was a Setting with a Story.

The Realms was purchased to be a realm of a thousand stories, the land of a thousand settings.

The kitchen sinkness was planned from the start. Because like I say in #dnd-discussion, you are not supposed to adventure in all of the realms in a campaign. You pick a theme you want to go for, and chances are there is an area in the Realms about it.

sharp owl
#

Getting a little off topic, so lets steer things back

maiden mortar
#

Can aartuk reproduce by infecting the flesh of animals or does it HAVE to be a 'humanoid'?

grim siren
#

Monstrous Compendium Spelljammer Appendix 1 for 2e does not specify.

#

It just says unconscious victim.

jagged apex
#

far as i can tell, could be possible in theory as there is no mechanical restriction and 5e does not make mention of it's ecology, making the previous incarnation the only source of such info, as kas pointed out

#

the virus is simply described as transforming the flesh, likely it needs to infect the creature itself, like can't just rip off a chunk of it and use that to create a new aartuk

jagged apex
#

i know that gods are prevented from being able to enter sigil, but i am curious, are they still able to be aware of things going on in sigil with in a certain area of the location if their name were to be spoken, the range being dependent on their power and in relation to where their name was uttered, like is the case normally in the cosmos for gods?

#

or is that something that is left unclear and ambiguous

sharp owl
#

Gods and godlike figuresβ€”including archdevils and demon lordsβ€”can’t enter Sigil by any means. However, their schemes and influence still find their way into the city through their agents.
And we have an example of this
In life, Aoskar subtly spread his worship through every portal in the Cage. Aoskar foolishly sought to seize control of Sigil from the Lady of Pain, but now the god and his followers are dead, devastated along with the temple that once bore his name.

#

So it seems that gods can extend their influence into Sigil covertly

grim siren
#

Vecna did manage to break into the City of Doors once.

sharp owl
#

But that was before his attempt at apotheosis though

grim siren
#

He became a god in 581CY and attempted his Invasion in 591CY

jagged apex
#

that gives funny implications then if that name invoking thing is still true, at least to me, at least with what we get to see of certain parts of sigil in the associated adventure

sharp owl
#

I swear the invasion was part of his plan to ascend, not afterwards

#

Huh, completely misremembering, my bad

grim siren
#

He was defeated in Vecna Lives and wisked away to Ravenloft, then he captured Iuz and stole his divinity. He escaped his Domain of Dread and made for Sigil

#

The closing paragrpah of Die Vecna Die shows how much damage a god can do in Sigil

"Even with Vecna's removal, his time in the crux effected change in superspace. Though the Lady of Pain attempts to heal the damage, the turmoil spawned by Vecna's time in Sigil cannot be entirely erased. Some Outer Planes drift off and are forever lost, others collide and merge, while at least one Inner Plane runs "aground" on a distant world of the Prime. Moreover, the very nature of the Prime Material Plane itself is altered. Half-worlds like those attached to Tovag Baragu multiply a millionfold, taking on parallel realism in what was before a unified Prime Material Plane. The concept of alternate dimensions rears its metaphorical head, but doesn't yet solidify, and perhaps it never will. New realms, both near and far, are revealed and realms never previously imagined make themselves known. Entities long thought lost emerge once more, while other creatures, both great and small, are inexplicably eradicated. Some common spells begin to work differently. The changes do not occur immediately, but instead are revealed during the subsequent months. However, one thing remains clear: Nothing will ever be the same again."

jagged apex
#

from my understanding the divine status part of the ascension did not take effect immediately and that is how he was able to accidently enter sigil

grim siren
#

Die Vecna Die! describes the Lady of Pain as a member of the Ancient Brethren, a group of omnipotent beings who predated the multiverse and know the Language Primeval, a magic greater than the gods. In the module, Vecna became a god and entered Sigil by countering the Lady's ban of all gods from the city for a time. He was able to do this because some of the Language Primeval was confided to him by the Serpent, another Ancient Brethren whose magics were as ancient and powerful as her own.

#

The Grey Hawk Wiki says this on the Serpent

The Serpent is said to be a member of a group of unfathomably old entities known as the Ancient Brethren, which though similar to gods, are not exactly gods, though some beings honor them as such. The Lady of Pain, Asmodeus, and Jazirian are also sometimes said to belong, or to have once belonged to this group, and supposedly Vecna is a descendant of the Ancient Brethren. There may also be a connection between the Ancient Brethren and the draedens and baernoloths born before the multiverse began.

The Serpent is believed to have personally instructed Vecna in the ways of magic. Vecna's mother, Mazzel, told her son that the Serpent gains its power by devouring the souls of those who honored it in life. Indeed, this appears to have happened to her when she was burned at the stake by religious fanatics.

Other rumors include that the Serpent is a guise of Asmodeus, or that the Serpent doesn't exist at all. Perhaps it is is only Vecna's own madness and insight whispering back at him from within the darkness of his own one-eyed skull.

#

Its all of this information plus Vecna's connection to Time Travelling obelisks. The convenient release of Ravenloft and Planescape and the rise of the city Dendradis in the outlands is what drives my tin foiling that the Vecna Adventure next year is

"Vecna Invades Sigil 2: Electric Boogaloo"

calm crest
#

There’s also the fact that the Sigil metaplot was mostly given a factory reset from its late-2e state to more or less the beginning.

jagged apex
#

i feel that would risk being too predictable for vecna, at least as i understand him and how understand the cosmos to have been reworked, then again could be fair game since time travel is so rarely explored in modern dnd adventures, though personally i think that theory is just that at best, i'd imagine vecna would try a new plan, after all, he is in a unique situation among the gods to where he potentially much like orcus could exist indefinitely

grim siren
#

True but 5e has been very cyclical in many adventures retreading tried and true ground.

Curse of Strahd -> I6 Ravenloft
Princes of the Apocalypse -> Elemental Evil
Tomb of Annihilations -> Tomb of Horrors
Dungeon of the Mad Mage -> Undermountain

While his plan will most hopefully be different if this is a Vecna post his Sigil Banishment, and he finds a new way in, he should know how he was defeated the first time and be ready for it.

wild remnant
#

Anyone got info about potential locations of aquatic elven settlements in the azure sea (Greyhawk) ? I've read all there was to read about sea elves and their lore but I didn't find any specific location or where they can be found :/

#

Be it in this sea (Because I am going to play in the saltmarsh campaign) or anywhere in Greyhawk

jagged apex
#

have you tried checking the wiki?

#

@wild remnant

wild remnant
jagged apex
wild remnant
jagged apex
#

seems if anything they have no specifically documented settlements so can presumably be anywhere with a suitable enviroment

wild remnant
#

I think I will just ask my dm if he could create one somewhere in this sea, a hidden settlement of some sort. They are a somewhat "closed" race so it'd make sense

jagged apex
#

only other thing i could think to suggest is maybe checking the sources refferenced?

wild remnant
verbal barn
#

would the shadowfell have societies and other settlements?

iron saffron
#

Sure considering the shadar-kai lived there.

last scaffold
#

Gloomwrought is a city with its own book set in the Shadowfell.

#

Also Evernight, which is the Shadowfell version of Neverwinter.

jagged apex
# verbal barn would the shadowfell have societies and other settlements?

yes, even without factoring into the beings living there, there are known to historically be dark reflections of various worlds on the prime material plane, in a sort of darkest timeline scenario, like if a city was nearly able to avoid destruction, the shadowfell counterpart will be completely ruined, there are even to my knowledge dark reflections of those on the prime that basically amplify your most horrible and negative traits and there is a risk of venturing into the shadowfell or something that can basically cause you and your dark mirror to swap places, i forget the details, but this is the lore video i watched and learned this, though given the guy's reputation amongst those in this server, best to take what he says with a bit of salt https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aR3eI37-r74

#

the dark reflections of people is something that i only recall hearing in his video, so would definitely take that part with a grain of salt

maiden mortar
#

Is there any precedent for Non-Evil hags, or even an Evil hag that doesn't have monkeys-paw twists to working with others, in any of D&D's settings?

I've been thinking about something I want to do with Hags as a 'painful truth' type of fey, rather than 'baby-eating evil'.

iron saffron
#

If you want to make hags non-evil then that's your call as DM.

maiden mortar
jagged apex
#

the upcoming fate hags in the book of many things are listed as typically neutral according to dnd beyond

maiden mortar
jagged apex
maiden mortar
loud totem
#

Do Crystal Spheres have an average radius? If so, what is the distance in lightyears?

iron saffron
#

It depends on the system. I would have to look at my 2E Spelljammer but the measurements is in millions of miles rather than in lightyears.

jagged apex
#

they are likely as varied as wildspace systems, as not every setting is an entire solar system

pure coral
#

Can anyone point me to any lore or books regarding ki?
Trying to work on a martial arts themed adventure

jagged apex
#

would start by digging up and refferecning the cited books in the forgotten realms' wiki page for ki

#

though sometimes it can change nature depending on edition, not as much as psionics though

#

it is much like how it is in the dragonball franchise, but in dnd can also be used in some cases where it can be used to cast spells

#

seems like the most material you may get out of it is from the old kara-tur materials since it is stated to be commonly used in that setting

pure coral
#

Kinda like gasoline.

jagged apex
#

in theory maybe, again, might be some merit in the way wu-jen in kara-tur, in an over simplified way, their version of wizards, but to my knowledge it would be uncharted territory with only a few monks in 5e having such examples of using ki for spells, mainly the rather infamous way of the four elements monk that we currently have

#

given it's roots with the soul, if you are in an edition that has hellfire spells, cuz it rarely is used or does much other then send your soul to the 9 hells as a lemure if killed, in 5e, historically the energy of souls could be used to amplify hellfire magics

#

from what the wiki page describes with the powers one could do with ki, sounds like the wu-jen are your best bet, as to quote the wiki "A wu jen could focus ki to improve reactions and even summon considerable magical energy with which to cast a spell." cited as being from "Oriental Adventures. (TSR, Inc), pp. 25–26." and " Oriental Adventures (3rd edition). (Wizards of the Coast), p. 31."

#

so something about the way they do their magic allows them to blend both ki and magic it seems

cosmic otter
#

I remember hearing somewhere that asmodeus punishes fiends that break pacts or deals, are there any examples of this or am I remembering wrong?

jagged apex
#

asmodai?

cosmic otter
jagged apex
#

who basically is entombed in a seemingly indestructible block of ice, robbing him of the dexterity and agility he was prior renouned for

#

basically it can be anything he can think of and those are but 2 examples

#

usually it is something that will make their indefinite lifespan miserable even if they are still able to fulfil their duties, else the simplest and easiest is simply demotion to a lower ranking devil, or even all the way back into a lemure

cosmic otter
iron saffron
#

Asmodeus has punished archdevils even when they didn't do anything wrong. It's to keep them on their toes.

jagged apex
#

if you know the history in the lore, levistus is a perfect example of that sort of thing

jagged apex
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as to my knowledge, even before he was the devil he is today, he was more lawful in his nature first and evil second

pine reef
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I thought he only used law but he's innately chaotic

jagged apex
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no

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that if anything would be his supposed son, Graz'zt

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or tiamat might be more accurate, but by no means is asmodeus chaotic

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like one of his origins, and the one i feel is likely secretly his true origin, is literally called "the serpent of law"

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though canonically which is and is not his true origin is left ambiguous, by asmodeus' own design

iron saffron
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Where does it say Graz'zt is Asmodeus' son?

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4E mentions Graz'zt was an archdevil sent to the Abyss as part of the Blood War and preferred to rule three lyaers there than serve Asmodeus.

jagged apex
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it is something i recall hearing in one of AJ's lore videos, but given some of his siblings in the lore it is potentially implied