#dnd-lore

1 messages · Page 33 of 1

jagged apex
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yeah cuz they see us make the same mistakes generation to generation that their own people tend to learn to not repeat

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like a human dying of old age would still be someone who died "too young" from an elf's point of view

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so for every half-elf you know there is at least one elf out there that has had to deal with that moment of sorrow, at least more often than not

grim siren
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But would it? I don't really see that. Perhaps if that human was special to them. But humans don't fret that the average age of a dog is 10-15 years. Sure we do if we are close.

Elves live on a completely different timescale than humans. If you and an elf got into an argument in stead of take a couple of months and rethinking things. The Elf would likely take a couple of decades When you live a thousand years. days become minutes, weeks become hours, and months become days

jagged apex
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well far as i know, when an elf and a human get together it is rarely a one night stand sort of situation, so am going off that, i could be wrong though

grim siren
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Half Elves aren't exactly the most common species in the realms either.

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Probably for that reason

jagged apex
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fair

grim siren
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I mean an elf at the End of the Crown Wars could have been the grandchild of an elf that was born before the Crown Wars began. And they lasted 3,000 years

jagged apex
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speaking of orcs, i am looking forward to playing an orc path of the giant barbarian that believes himself to be blessed by Bahgtru, in an upcoming halloween one shot, he got monster mashed with a bulette, which is noted as one of Bahgtru's favored monsters, is gunna be a blast, with Bahgtru being the is roided out meat head even by orc standards XD

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so if anyone thinks of some neat obscure lore facts about Bahgtru and his faithful that are not like on the forgotten realms wiki, definitely feel free to let me know i'd love to learn more about this dude

snow laurel
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Totally switching sides but still a question for my campaign

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Does a creature need to be able to see to pilot a spelljammer?

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I ended my last game on a semi-random encounter with the players floating up to a derelict beholder tyrant ship. What I'm thinking the content will be is the following:

One crewmember of a beholder tyrant ship was blinded in an accident, and secretly turned to studying arcane magic as a coping mechanism. Its paranoia lead it to quickly and successively put out its eyestalks until it managed to attain 9th level spellcasting. It then murdered its crewmembers before they could turn on him, raising them as beholder zombies.

A 9th level beholder mage is far too powerful for my level 5 characters to fight, but after he blinded himself and tried to fly the ship he realized he couldn't because he's blind. So he's been chilling with his beholder zombies stewing in his hatred for years, marooned in space until the players come along, and he's going to bargain with them to take him on their ship

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Does that seem reasonable?

jagged apex
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not to my knowledge as the way senses operate with it largely are more like feeling things

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to my knowledge, just need to be able to cast spells and attune to the helm

snow laurel
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I know you can navigate by thought on the astral plane but in wildspace I imagine while you can propel the ship you just kinda... hope you're going in the right direction if you can't see

jagged apex
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but different helms have different requirements in the lore as is integral to how they opperate like the eye tyrant ship of the beholders

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well my point stands, to my knowledge nothing especially in 5e says that sight is required to operate a spelljammer

snow laurel
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True

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It's more like "would a blind beholder be stranded in space and need the players"

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Technically there's nothing stopping a blind person from driving a car, either

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just usually into a wall

jagged apex
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obviously if you are blind, you'd be putting faith and trust in the one navigating and be going based off the directions they speak

snow laurel
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in this case he's alone on the vessel

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so no "seeing eye beholder"

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though if they're a 9th level spellcaster I can't let them find a familiar

jagged apex
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well if alone, yeah, more or less kind of drifting and clumsily avoiding obstacles as they approach

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least far as i am aware

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they would be relying on all other senses and simply otherwise be doing and hoping their best

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remember the dm is not strictly opposing the players, it the game is built around cooperative story telling between the dm and the players

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not everything needs to be a challenge or made as hard as possible, unless that is the sort of thing your table enjoys

jagged apex
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plus just cuz you CAN cast a spell, does not mean you have it prepared or any number of potential issues

snow laurel
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the logic is thus: this is a powerful creature that could kill the players but it doesn't because it needs something they have that it doesn't (sight)

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if they could summon a familiar, they'd have no reason not to eat the players

jagged apex
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well beholders don't typically use spells like other races do, their helms work a bit differently

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quote "A spherical chamber on the ship’s command deck functions as a spelljamming helm that only beholders can attune to. Any beholder that occupies this chamber can attune to it. Reducing a tyrant ship to 0 hit points not only destroys it but also destroys the ship’s spelljamming helm and eyestalk cannons." is how the helm of a tyrant ship is described in 5e

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so unless it somehow had a "familiar eyestalk" is not like that would even be an option for the blinded pilot

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so hopefully that clears things up, cuz the way a spelljammer helm works is the same, there is just certain changes often described in the ship that uses a unique or different version of a traditional spelljamming helm

rough fractal
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Makes sense, people trust rangers because they say they're rangers and look like rangers, not because they hold some responsibility or title. They make being a ranger their business

mint wave
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How do Changelings swap their children with other races?

spark haven
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Stealthily, I'd imagine. Think about when a parent is most likely to not be present or attentive with their child: while sleeping

mint wave
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How do they stop the baby changeling giving it away by changing appearance though?

spark haven
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They couldn't if they aren't present. That would presumably be a defense mechanism baked into baby changelings

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Not really a stretch

jagged apex
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they don't really do that in dnd, that sort of thing from what i recalled may be done by a hag

spark haven
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Real animals do this all the time and they're not even magical

mint wave
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From the forgotten realms wiki "The discovery of a changeling child—whether due to a changeling biological parent or by being swapped at birth for a human or other child—was not welcomed by all parents. Unwanted infants such as these and others might be abandoned at a local temple or monastery of a good deity, most often Selûne, and these foundlings would be taught and raised in the faith, with some even becoming monks. The lands most likely for this were Aglarond, Amn, Calimshan, Cormyr, Damara, Impiltur, Mulhorand, Lake of Steam, Luiren, and Silverymoon in the North. In harsher lands, unwanted children might simply be left to the elements."

spark haven
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Yeah, I can't speak to how frequently this would happen, but strategically speaking it's not hard to pick your opportunity

jagged apex
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that is 3.5e lore as that is the edition the book that is cited from, Champions of Valor, was from

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the wiki tried to consolidate the lore in the forgotten realms across editions, but each edition is it's own continuity

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in 5e, the setting agnostic lore for them ties them into the feywild, from monsters of the multiverse "With ever-changing appearances, changelings reside in many societies undetected. Each changeling can supernaturally adopt any face they like. For some changelings, a new face is only a disguise. For other changelings, a new face may reveal an aspect of their soul. The first changelings in the multiverse appeared in the Feywild, and the wondrous, mutable essence of that plane lingers in changelings today—even in those changelings who have never set foot in the fey realm. Each changeling decides how to use their shape-shifting ability, channeling either the peril or the joy of the Feywild. Sometimes they adopt new forms for the sake of mischief or malice, and other times they don a new identity to right wrongs or delight the downtrodden."

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no swapping done there, and prior in 5e they were explicitly only described in relation to eberron

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look to like marvel comics and how, before the establishment of krakoa, most mutants lived with that part of them hidden amongst other humans, is effectively the same concept

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like only a changeling, their family, and those close to them that they know they can trust will likely know they are a shapeshifter

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so again, if anything the baby swapping thing is specifically only a thing in 3.5e continuity of the forgotten realms

jagged apex
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but they still will proportionally be roughly their usual size even during that period, else is not really a factor in the forgotten realms unless maybe if you are playing 3.5e specifically or otherwise using that lore in your own games for that setting

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in theory, if using that older lore, could basically do what they did in eberron, at least assuming i am remembering it correctly, but replace doppleganger with changeling

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else i recall them originally having forgotten realms lore also in a dragon magazine article, so could track that down and see if it goes into any detail, but again, that would be specifically for that edition and is not necessarily canon for later editions

iron saffron
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Toril has had a couple campaign settings beyond the Forgotten Realms.

jagged apex
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though more or less have retroactively in most cases been just integrated into different parts of toril

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but yeah, looking at the implimentation of the products or even the definitions of the words, one should know that universe and campaign setting are not the same thing

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so saying multiversal travel in dnd does not exists when players and characters/npc a like have been doing for years just sounds silly to say the least

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heck, literally in the lore multiple times mordenkainen and elmisnster have visited ed greenwood

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and elminster even bought some german beer and sold it to a friend of his back on toril

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i love moments like those where the meta stuff is actually worked into the lore in some capacity

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the planes make up the multiverse in dnd

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so largely it is a means of for mulitversal travel, is fundimentally not the same as other franchises or IPs and the way their multiverses work

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then you are refusing to accept the lore that is published

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least far as i am aware at least

iron saffron
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Each plane of existence is essentially a universe.

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Hence multiverse.

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Forgotten Realms is a campaign setting on the continent of Faerun on the planet of Toril in the Realmspace system, which is part of the Material Plane.

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Other campaign settings on Toril:
Maztica
Kara-tur
Al-Qadim

white ravine
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Going back a bit, Planescape/Sigil does reach across multiple settings, same with spelljammer, but also that 5e kind of threw wrenches in those gears in terms of the minute details

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Except for like...Eberron.

...And Athas.

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But yeah, that is accurate

iron saffron
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Greyhawk uses the Great Wheel cosmology.
FR until 5E used the Great Tree cosmology but adopted the Great Wheel cosmology.

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Crystal spheres are/were stellar systems, not universes. They're part of the Material Plane.

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Again, campaign settin =/= universe.

white ravine
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I mean...is a stellar system not a universe?

iron saffron
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No. A stellar system is like our solar system.

unkempt merlin
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no

jagged apex
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yeah but mick was explicitally saying that planescape is wrong and that muliversal travel in dnd does not exists, which is objectively wrong

unkempt merlin
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Traveling from the Material Plane to the Plane of Fire is multiversal travel

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As is traveling from the FR to Greyhawk

jagged apex
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when the problem seems to be that mick is going off a definition other than the way it is definitened in relation to the dnd muliverse/cosmos

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context clues are important for that very reason

white ravine
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I feel like the insistence on terminology is starting to take it's toll here, point of the matter is that while traveling from one plane to another compared to one setting to another is different, some sources of that travel can do both

unkempt merlin
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There is a reason the 5e DMG has a section called "Creating a Multiverse" that includes info about the inner, outer, material, elemental, etc planes.

white ravine
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Spelljammers and Sigil, for example

unkempt merlin
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Sure. Thats all you can acknowledge. However it is incorrect, as travel between any planes is multiversal in canon

white ravine
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I do think it's important to point out the difference in scale of multiverse in terms of DND

unkempt merlin
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they literally do

white ravine
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A planar cosmology's multiverse and multiverse between connected settings are two scales you can't conflate without being messy

unkempt merlin
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from the planescape book....

Every D&D adventure takes place in the multiverse. Beyond the lone worlds of the Material Plane are countless other realities and the paths and portals that connect every edge of eternity.

jagged apex
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they give you all the tools, with infinite settings they literally can not write it out for you for every possible way you can interprate or otherwise use it

unkempt merlin
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and spelljammer...

In a D&D game, adventures can unfold in any corner of the multiverse—not just in the dungeons and wildernesses of the Material Plane but also on other planes of existence, including what celestial navigators refer to as Wildspace

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those are literally some of the first sentences from those books

iron saffron
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2E Spelljammer listed the various crystal spheres of official campaign settings, such as Realmspace, Greyspace, Athasspace, and Krynnspace, that the PCs could traverse to/from.

jagged apex
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why do you think the planescape bundle has the subtitle "Adventures in The Multiverese" or why monsters of the mutliverse was setting agnostic?

unkempt merlin
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always has been

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its the same thing as its always been, multiverse is just a more commonly understood phrase now

jagged apex
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cuz you are literally refusing to accept the facts, confirmation bias if it was a mechanic, would definitely be psychic damage

grim siren
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However, such as with our actual world, the expanses of the game multiverse will always have frontiers and unexplored territories. This fact, indeed, is what makes the AD&D game system so wonderful and appealing.

GARY GYGAX, UNEARTHED ARCANA, MAY 1985

jagged apex
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capitalizing on something being all over the mainstream to get more people interested in the game potentially does not automatically mean it is pandering

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the multiversal crazy as you put it is still very much still on going

unkempt merlin
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Its utilizing a term that A) has always been a part of the game and B) is more understood nowadays

fallow leaf
grim siren
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Obvious marketing is obvious.

Not a bad thing objectively but it's there.

jagged apex
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i was talking about planescape and i disagree, i feel people did not manage their expectations and were more so complaining for what they did not get or that they did not get the exact thing they wanted

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personallty i saw nothing wrong with it for what the product was

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then again i never played 2e and likely would not have the patiences for the the added complexity of the mechancs and restrictions it had from what i heard

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eh, again, that is less of a lore thing and more of a merchandice/product thing

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so maybe this conversation should move to #non-dnd-topics for those that wish to continue it?

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to my knowledge owlin are specifically part of the strixhaven setting

white ravine
normal kelp
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Are lamia (have human half snakes) a thing In dnd? If so are there any slurs to use against them?

jagged apex
iron saffron
mortal spade
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I’m tired

grim siren
jagged apex
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half-lions, and that is cuz they take their name from a different version of the mythology in our own world

unkempt merlin
grim siren
jagged apex
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is the reason for several monsters being named the way they are, as dnd takes monsters from multiple mythologies around the world

normal kelp
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Close enough. Thanks

jagged apex
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is literally why the medusa is called such, cuz gorgon already was chosen for another monster from mythology that uses the same name

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nobody said there was

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no, it comes from a real world mythological creature

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i learned that when esper the bard literally was complaining about that when talking about the creature and going over hit's history and inspiration

iron saffron
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Allegedly the D&D gorgon is based on the cover art of "The Historie of Favoure-Footed Beastes" which depicted a scaly bull-like creature.

jagged apex
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it is one of the alternative names for that creature

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obviously dnd's own version of the beast got to keep it

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so the gorgon as we know it today needed a different one or would have to be scrapped

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if you check the forgotten realms wiki, most of the time it will say what a creature is based off of if it is not a dnd original

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in that little side tap with editions stat details, pictures of different editions of it, where it says history

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doubtful, as the creature it is based off is inherently made up and inconsistant

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though it could have influenced it somewhat when making what would become the gorgon

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definitely what i would do, when i hit the lore based name generators when making a character, part of what helps me settle on a name if is if i can even pronounce it without extra effort

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but the stone turning breath was not do to the medusa at all, and was never fire at any point to my knowledge

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the other way the ability is interpreted being given to the dnd version of Catoblepas

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though i guess indirectly could be greek esc given the creature's use in other media such as the one used in herculies the animated series

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oh, well that is a completely unrelated creature in terms of inspiration, so could likely just be a coincidence

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honestly you could probably tweak a gorgon into a Colchis Bull fairly easily

eager bay
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how hard would it be to open a very large portal to the abyss (from faerun/contemporary), and are there any good items associated with that kind of thing? working on a campaign where the mission is to lure this giant abyssal jellyfish thing back to the abyss, and i'm wondering if some sort of "portal stones" or something would be a reasonable macguffin

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also wondering if it's cheap to just say that it's too big and banishment doesn't work

iron saffron
drowsy wraith
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Hey if i wanted to run a piratey adventure on Faerun where could i run it?

iron saffron
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Along any of the coasts or seas?

raven marsh
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Nelanther Isles? @drowsy wraith

jagged apex
eager bay
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How does the Tarrasque reflect work? Like what’s it’s biology, how does that do it. Does the Tarrasque reflect things at will or does it kind of… bend will of the cosmos for random chance? Was the Tarrasque enchanted with something that gave it this ability?

sharp owl
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It's carapace has special properties that reflect magical effects away

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It's like how butterfly wings reflect light in a special way that makes them iridescent, except instead of light it's magic

eager bay
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Does it reflect certain things certain ways based on the angle a spell hits it?

magic jackal
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I don't believe that's specified in the Lore.

sharp owl
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It just reflects the magic away, it bounces off

eager bay
sharp owl
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How as in the exact mechanism?

magic jackal
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It's either deflected away, or it's deflected back at the caster. You can refer to the mechanics in the stat block for this.

sharp owl
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It's natural magic, like how a dragon breaths fire or a beholder floats

eager bay
sharp owl
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The exact geometry isn't specified, no

eager bay
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Would they be one?

sharp owl
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Can you try rephrasing your question?

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As Epic has pointed out, it's deflected off in a direction that can include coming back at the caster

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This is represented in the mechanics of the stat block

magic jackal
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In the mechanics, you roll a d6, on 1-5 it's just deflected away, and on a 6 it's deflected at the caster.
Lorewise, it does not specify the direction, the lore rarely goes into such exhaustive detail.

eager bay
eager bay
sharp owl
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That's not a topic for this channel

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This channel is for discussing what the lore does say, not what a DM could do with what the lore doesn't say

eager bay
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Oh

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Yeah alright so the new lore for dragons is great and all

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But they needed specific sizes

sharp owl
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Again, that's not a discussion about what the lore does say

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This is not a channel for discussing what you feel the lore is missing

eager bay
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Which one is?

sharp owl
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Or what you feel the books are missing

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Alternatively, you could ask here if there is lore about specific sizes for dragons

eager bay
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Is there?

magic jackal
eager bay
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Is that still canon to 5e?

magic jackal
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Canon to 5e is the PHB, DMG and MM.

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This channel discusses further depth including books from prior editions, and also books published in 5e, seeing where they do and don't contradict one another.

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FIzbans didn't actually provide any specific sizes, so you can look at that Wiki page and associated Wiki Pages on the specific Dragons for a good baseline.

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What's more, if you're curious, and want to see a primary source book, you can look at the 3.5e Draconimicon, iirc it's where we get the majority of D&D resources on Dragon Biology.

eager bay
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There’s no sizes so idk if I could find any for 5e

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Is there a source?

magic jackal
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You'll find all the sizes for every age category for the Dragon.

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It's got plenty of sources, are you familiar with how Wikipedia uses citations?

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and other Wikis following that same format do?

sharp owl
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Also the Wiki lists its sources

eager bay
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It does have the gargantuan-tiny sizes so that works

sharp owl
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What's more, if you're curious, and want to see a primary source book, you can look at the 3.5e Draconimicon, iirc it's where we get the majority of D&D resources on Dragon Biology.
Please, please do people the courtesy of reading what they write. Otherwise you make people feel like they're wasting their time and not want to contribute to the discussion

eager bay
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I read it, I just didn’t know that 3.5 was still canon

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Is it canon?

magic jackal
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Canon for the purposes of this channel as it's not contradicted anywhere.

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5e doesn't consider Fizbans canon either.

sharp owl
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Canon to 5e is the PHB, DMG and MM.
This channel discusses further depth including books from prior editions, and also books published in 5e, seeing where they do and don't contradict one another.

eager bay
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…I’m an idiot

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Sorry

sharp owl
eager bay
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Ok so if Tarrasques can reflect spells back at the caster, is this canonically accidental or is this a system where gameplay and lore at basically one in the same?

sharp owl
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That question doesn't make sense

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Can you rephrase it?

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Also I'm not sure what canon has to do with it

eager bay
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How much does the gameplay and lore overlap in 5e

sharp owl
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The tarrasques reflective carapace is an ability it has in the lore that is replicated mechanically

eager bay
sharp owl
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You keep using canon, that is not the right term

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Some mechanics of D&D existing in the narrative, some do not

magic jackal
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That's kinda... way bigger than a lore question, and also doesn't really have an answer except on a case-by-case basis.
In this case, the Tarrasque has a carapace that reflects magic, the mechanics that the stat block uses are the mechanical way of reflecting that element of the Tarrasque.

sharp owl
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Not everything in lore can be represented via rules and not every rule can be justified in the lore

eager bay
sharp owl
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I think the word you've been looking for isn't "canon" but "diegetic"

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Diegetic means "exists in the world of the fiction" and non-diegetic means that it doesn't and can only be perceived by the audience (or in the case of D&D, the players)

eager bay
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Huh, didn’t know that

sharp owl
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A sword and shield are diegetic, when you say your character uses those items, those items exist in the fiction of the game

eager bay
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So back to lore

sharp owl
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However, levels are non-diegetic, no one in the fiction of your game knows of levels, that's a player facing thing

eager bay
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Is there still an overdeity?

sharp owl
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However, there's only a small overlap between what is diegetic and what is lore

sharp owl
ionic rivet
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Yeah it's setting-sepcific. D&D is not one monolithic setting.

eager bay
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I thought it was a multiverse

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Is it?

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Is that how echoes work?

ionic rivet
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Yes - but each setting within that multiverse is different (or can be different).

jagged apex
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it is, but not every setting is the same, we only know of i think it is one or 2 settings with confirmed over deities

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the main one being Ao the over deity of the forgotten realms setting, which is realmspace and the worlds within it

sharp owl
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@eager bay do you know what a Venn diagram is?

eager bay
sharp owl
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Because it's not universal knowledge that everyone intuitive has?

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Diegetic was novel information to you, so I just wanted to make sure I wasn't throwing around a term you didn't know

eager bay
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I thought every school system used em

sharp owl
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Beside the point

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D&D settings are like a Venn diagram; they share differing elements to differing degrees

eager bay
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Is there a sort of creator of ALL of it? Like a multiversal deity?

sharp owl
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For example, some settings share the concept of the Nine Hells and Asmodeus, but they don't all share the same Nine Hells or Asmodeus

magic jackal
sharp owl
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Gods are very local

eager bay
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Is there a lore reason for why the character’s power seems to cap? Is that like a mortal limit?

sharp owl
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For example, there is zero solid evidence of gods even existing on Eberron
On Athas, they're dead
On Exandria they're locked away behind the divine gate

sharp owl
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Level 20 in say Forgotten Realms means something different from level 20 on Theros or Eberron

eager bay
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There’s different class sheets for every setting?!

sharp owl
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Levels are a non-diegetic concept (as I mentioned moments ago)

sharp owl
jagged apex
eager bay
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Wait can a paladin ever learn 6th level spells in the Forgotten Realms?

eager bay
sharp owl
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No, I mean that level 20 in FR might mean you're a superhuman being crossing the planes with a thought, whereas on Theros it means you're fighting gods one on one and winning

jagged apex
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in past editions, player characters could go beyond 20th level and thus even enter godhood, level 20 is a mechanic thing, basically in 5e represents more or less the peak of a mortal player character

eager bay
sharp owl
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Levels do not exist diegetically, meaning they don't mean anything intrinsically in the narrative

eager bay
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At least, spellcasters will still have the same spells

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So they’d be equal, right?

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Does the power of a wish spell vary from setting to setting?

sharp owl
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That's not a lore question

jagged apex
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depends, some settings handle magic differently, but that might be more mechanics than lore what your are asking

sharp owl
eager bay
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Dang, thought it was lore

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My bad

sharp owl
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None of this has been very lore related regardless of how much people have tried to steer it that way

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@eager bay I think where you're tripping up is confusing mechanics, narrative, and lore

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They're not all the same thing

eager bay
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I thought power systems were lore

jagged apex
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granted they do have areas they overlap, but yeah, they are still different things, regardless of the edition or system you are using

sharp owl
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Mechanics are the tools you use to play the game
Narrative is the story you tell by using the mechanics to play the game
Lore is narrative that exists outside of playing the game, made outside of the game being played (officially)

jagged apex
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lore is more or less stuff like mythology, history, and other in universe things, with the setting(s) or cosmos in question

sharp owl
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It seems like you're focusing on the first two; "The mechanics say this, so what would that mean narratively?"
Which is much more a #dnd-discussion thing

eager bay
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Bet, gonna go there

jagged apex
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this might be a dumb question but i have been wondering this for a couple days, are lycanthropy types known to mix, like if a creature were to be infected simultaneously by say a werebear and a wereowl would they become some sort of wereowlbear or does lycanthropy act more by first come first serve rules, where one kind of lycanthropy grants immunity to all others?

white ravine
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I believe they cant stack, no

jagged apex
#

k, thx

magic jackal
#

Can Lycanthropy stack with Vampirism because the Lycanthrope remains a humanoid?

#

I wonder if there's any lore precedent for that

iron saffron
sharp owl
#

This is not a lore answer but a mechanical one

#

So doesn't really apply

magic jackal
#

It sets a reasonable precedent, I appreciate the answer.

#

I do wonder if any prior editions had something to that effect through

wise dirge
#

Do Grung and Locathah have any connection?

jagged apex
#

not to my knowledge, one is a race of typically lawful evil jungle/swamp dwelling poisonous frog people (size small) and the other is a race of typically neutral fishmen that live in the seas and oceans and have a history of being enslaved (size medium)

#

though they do have connections to Koa-toa, ixitxachitl, morkoth, sahaguin, and merfolk

#

in the case of the merfolk, they share a creator deity, the others they are mainly in a slave role or in the case of the sahaguin just prey

wise dirge
#

Interesting! I actually didn’t know that about the Grungs

jagged apex
jagged apex
wise dirge
#

I know Grungs and Locathah CAN be out of water for some time but be dependent on it, those sort of races that CAN but are still water dependent I’m interested in exploring for my world

#

I’ll give that a read for sure!

jagged apex
#

only thing they have in common is likely pure coincidence of not being truely amphibious, hence the specific variation of the trait

wise dirge
#

Ohh okay, are there any other races that fall under that hybrid?

jagged apex
#

is not really a hybrid thing, is just not fully amphibious, the sahaguin i know have such a trait

wise dirge
#

Ooh okay noted! As a segue, of the different DND established settings, are there ones with only a set # of races? I want to study how DND settings go about incorporating a set # of races into their world 🙂

jagged apex
#

not really, besides that is not even a lore thing

iron saffron
#

Dragonlance doesn't have certain creatures like orcs or dragonborn (dragonborn was a 4E thing while Dragonlance came out in 1E).

jagged apex
#

but that is more so cuz they never came into existance, far as we know, on that world, has nothing to do with the number of races

#

and again if anything that would be a meta thing and not a lore thing

wise dirge
#

Ohh I see what you mean, I think I’m conflating a bit with lore and more meta aspects

sharp owl
#

The creation of a race in what could be considered a settings present or recent history is a rare thing

wise dirge
#

But I do find the drawback aspect of the aquatic races super interesting so be it the Grung, Locathah or Sahaguin as you mentioned I’ll learn more about them through the wikis!

sharp owl
#

The only official example I can think of is the warforged of Eberron

#

Verdan in Forgotten Realms are questionable as far as how official they are, but maybe still count

#

The draconians of Dragonlance probably count

wise dirge
#

Oh there’s differences between Draconian and Dragonborn? 👀

jagged apex
#

since Verdan are part of a specific take on the forgotten realms, if i had to consolidate them with the rest of the lore, i'd presume they only exist in one specific timeline, though they are presented as an offshoot of goblins, so not a thing to worry about if a setting does not have goblins, though i can't think of any where goblins don't exist XD

jagged apex
#

basically their inner elemental energies become unstable and boom!, dragonborn that does not happen, they die the same as if you murder a human

wise dirge
#

Iiiinteresting, is it like a “this will hurt you in the radius” boom or “elemental particles fly everywhere” boom?

jagged apex
#

prior to 5e another difference were draconians having wings and tails, dragonborn could not have either until more recent years in 5e, mainly once exandria and their variants of dragonborn who operate on a tail and no tail social structure/society, a trend that was seemingly perpetuated with things like bg3

jagged apex
iron saffron
#

Dragonborn trace their origins back to dragons but aren't dragons.

jagged apex
#

their proper 5e incarnations are detailed in "DRAGONLANCE: SHADOW OF THE DRAGON QUEEN", in appendix B which lists friends and foes, basically a mini bestiary

jagged apex
#

as supposedly depending on what lore you are working with, there are hints that before they were dragonborn, they were a humanoid mammalian race, hence for what in past editions at least, they had things like breasts

#

as for draconians their generic 5e lore is established as "Draconians are bipedal monsters born from metallic dragon eggs that have been corrupted by a combination of warped alchemy and the Dragon Queen’s foul magic. The Dragon Armies closely guard the secret of the draconians’ creation, allowing Krynn’s metallic dragons to continue to think their eggs are being held hostage so they don’t oppose the Dragon Queen’s conquests." as the broad lore for them before you go into each kind of draconian, details of this process are offered either in past editions or in theories suggested by lore videos from the likes of AJ Pickett who study the dnd lore and put out videos on it to make the lore from various editions more accessibly

#

though i guess "possible details" would be more accurate

wise dirge
#

Ahh so they’re connected to a Dragon Queen

wise dirge
jagged apex
#

but some examples of the death throes, ie the effect that causes them to more or less explode on death, are a ball of lightning that can also stun you on top of damaging someone, turning their body to stone and releasing petrifying gas, exploding their bones like shrapnel sort of, disolving and splashing around into acid, a screaming spector like thing, bursting into flames, or in the case of one such draconian who was sort of a prototype of what would later become one of the main types of draconians, erupting into sludge

jagged apex
# wise dirge Ahh so they’re connected to a Dragon Queen

always have been, that is one aspect of their lore that has remained consistent, that and them being made from the eggs of true dragons, in 5e chromatic, metallic, and gem dragon eggs are all viable for certain draconians to be made

jagged apex
#

though some lore implies some otherwise unknown connection between the 2, at least from what i am aware and have heard, but take that with a grain of salt

unique bough
#

from the new ancient time dragon it allows people to time travel 8000 years in the future. What would the forgotten realms be like in thousands years so like 24th century or even the 74th century.

#

would it still be a very medival fantasy world. or would be much more modern

untold blaze
#

Hello everyone I want to ask something about Aboleths when they came to the material plane they teleport with ancient Xxiphu city what happened to Aboleth's city did someone destroyed or is it still under the sea of fallen stars ? please enlighten me

merry roost
#

From what I understand, everything in the Forgotten Realms cosmology is the Forgotten Realms.
Outside the Forgotten Realms cosmology is not the Forgotten Realms.

devout siren
#

Hello I'm looking for a game

iron saffron
jagged apex
#

again cosmology and setting are not the same thing at all

merry roost
jagged apex
#

basic definition and how the two are never used interchangeably in official materials

merry roost
#

Let me rephrase.

jagged apex
#

which was in 4e mind you, no mention of it in the 5e continuity yet to my knowledge

merry roost
#

Let me rephrase.
From what I understand, everything in the Forgotten Realms cosmology is also in the Forgotten Realms. Outside the Forgotten Realms cosmology is also outside the Forgotten Realms.

jagged apex
#

all setting in dnd share the same cosmology, unless that setting is specificially stated as a self contained cosmology, such as eberron

#

so when it has a different cosmology, the setting will literally establish such info

#

this fact is also presumably part of why gods can have presences in multiple settings

#

if this was not the case, the lore would be a chaotic mess to put it lightly

merry roost
jagged apex
#

to my knowledge it is not self contained and given we know in the published continuity "Paladine is known as the Father of Good, the Master of Law, the Platinum Dragon, and—on other worlds of the multiverse—Bahamut." and "Takhisis, leader of Krynn’s evil gods, is known as the Dragon Queen, the Queen of Darkness, and—on other worlds—Tiamat." and no mention is made of other planes, heavily implies it uses the same cosmolgoy as the forgotten realms and other established settings, just as it always has

untold blaze
jagged apex
#

np, one of the benefits of being part of a fandom or community, we help each other out

untold blaze
#

Lord Lathader bless your die rollings my friend

jagged apex
#

lol, i play currently in a homebrew selfcontained cosmology and to my knowledge he has no precence there, but i appreciate the thanks all the same 😛

merry roost
#

I prefer Phlogiston and crystal spheres, it gave distinct borders and differentiated travel between the planes and travel between settings/worlds.

white ravine
#

Its a pain in the neck to homebrew it back in, but at least not impossible

merry roost
#

And I interpreted travel between crystal spheres as multiverse travel.

white ravine
#

Setting multiverse and planar multiverse are distinctions to make

jagged apex
white ravine
#

Though 'planar travel' is pretty safe to define one from the other

jagged apex
#

mainly as one of the ways a wildspace system can look like it is within when approaching it from the astral plane when spelljamming to it

#

i have a potential theory for how the phlogoston might also fit, this would not be the place to talk about it, plus being headcanon/a theory it very well could prove incorrect

merry roost
#

I view the Astral plane as the graveyard of the divine that mortals were not suppose to access.

jagged apex
#

that is like one half of what it is in published materials

merry roost
#

Like the difference between Prime Material Plane and Material Plane.
Prime Material Plane expanded across all Material Planes

jagged apex
#

and technically, that was the original purpose, supposedly, before tharizdun went crazy

merry roost
#

"tharizdun"?

jagged apex
#

the guy that is attributed with the creation of the abyss

iron saffron
#

AJ Pickett recently did a video on him.

jagged apex
#

well sort of, but he made up a good chunk of it

#

he being tharizdun

unkempt merlin
jagged apex
#

at least within the context of dnd and it's cosmology

merry roost
jagged apex
#

eh, i have pet peeves too, but lore like facts don't really care ^^;

unkempt merlin
white ravine
jagged apex
#

it is also the realm of thought

unkempt merlin
#

It's a lot of things at once. Like a number of planes tbh

jagged apex
#

given their metaphysical nature, likely would not have the outerplanes without it, at least not as we know them

merry roost
jagged apex
#

that is not what that says dude

#

each setting does not always have it's own cosmology

iron saffron
#

The Forgotten Realms campaign setting had used the World Tree cosmology up to 4E but switched to the Great Wheel cosmology 5E, the same cosmology used by Greyhawk campaign setting and is considered the "default" cosmology.

jagged apex
#

we have explained this multiple times now

iron saffron
#

Toril and Oearth are in the same Material plane, hence while spelljammers can travel between the worlds.

jagged apex
#

and again, nothing in what you linked supports your view of things mick, so idk why you think the planes and cosmology are unique to the forgotten realms when we literally have had them used across multiple settings and it was never once claimed to be exclusive to the forgotten realms setting

merry roost
#

It felt like it did. 😢

jagged apex
#

what "feels like" and what objectively or factually "is" are 2 very different things

#

if you delve into lore, part of that is accepting the facts as they are, and not let your personal bias or opinions influence it, is ok if you are doing so for the sake of your own game, but when talking about the published lore and established continuities, facts are what matter in those instances

#

granted some lore can contradict each other but still, that is what is written and published vs what is interpreted, 2 very different things fundimentally

iron saffron
#

Well, of course you have the right to ignore official lore at your own table. For example, I ignore spelljammers sailing through the Astral Sea/Plane at my table.

merry roost
#

I am trying to make sense of the lore.

jagged apex
#

and we keep trying to explain it to you, but you don't seem like you are willing to listen

iron saffron
#

Lore changes each edition (see Asmodeus and Lolth)

jagged apex
#

more so it can change with each edition, some things are left the same or otherwise expanded apon if not altered

#

each edition is it's own continuity

merry roost
#

Why did they change it?
That is the part I do not understand.

jagged apex
#

only wizards of the coast can say that or the writers, in the case of 4e, is mainly cuz most of the fandom did not like the lore that was put out for 4e cuz it was so far removed from any other edition's lore to the point where it was more or less uncompatable

iron saffron
#

Each edition's writers want to put their take on D&D lore (and to sell splat books, especially during the 2E and 3E era).

jagged apex
#

any other edition, your guess is as good as anyone else's

iron saffron
#

2E and 3E were the peak of D&D lore splat books. 4E did 180 on a lot of stuff, especially FR lore. 5E retconned a lot of 4E FR lore...

jagged apex
#

but some cases were potentially just the natural evolution and fleshing out of the lore and the narrative in it

iron saffron
#

If Elgate was here she would explain with citations of the evolution of D&D lore through the editions...

jagged apex
#

cuz like with people, including writers, views on what should be and what is acceptable or not, or what makes sense can change

iron saffron
#

Yeah, the Raven Queen and the Astral Sea (instead of being referred to as the Astral Plane) survived into 5E.

#

But 5E seems to be moving away from official established lore and more "hey, you make it up yourself at your table!"

jagged apex
#

yeah in 5e astral plane and astral sea are interchangeable, now more so since spelljamming has reemurged and kept the nautical vibe to many of the ships and such, but in space

iron saffron
#

(That's one big issue I have as I have grumbled many times about 5E Spelljammer)

jagged apex
jagged apex
iron saffron
#

Well, they don't even give a baseline to work with on some of the new playable species...

jagged apex
#

though not sure if 2e had naval rules or not as i did not play that edition

unkempt merlin
iron saffron
#

Yes it did. 2E Spelljammer has ship-to-ship rules as well.

jagged apex
#

i ment navel kind, i know it had spelljammer ones

merry roost
jagged apex
#

if the lore remained stagnant, interest in the hobby would likely die out, at least in relation to supporting published/licensed materials and we'd likely be making even more stuff up

iron saffron
#

D&D lore is like Marvel and DC Comics lore. It changes over decades, even contradicting itself (sometimes not even "reboots" help)

jagged apex
#

is probably one reason why ed greenwood has mentioned he regularly works on his home version of the realms, so his players don't get bored

white ravine
jagged apex
merry roost
#

Astral Plane is also called Astral Sea, correct?

jagged apex
#

yes

#

at least in the 5e continuity

merry roost
#

Astral Plane being the graveyard of the divine that mortals were not suppose to access, correct?
Yes/No ?

crude blaze
unkempt merlin
crude blaze
#

Try not to quote full sections of paid content like that. Mods might bring down the hammer.

crude blaze
unkempt merlin
#

Small section of the dmg

The Astral Plane is the realm of thought and dream, where visitors travel as disembodied souls to reach the Outer Planes. It is a great silvery sea, the same above and below, with swirling wisps of white and gray streaking among motes of light like distant stars. Most of the Astral Sea is a vast, empty expanse. Visitors occasionally stumble upon the petrified corpse of a dead god or other chunks of rock drifting forever in the silvery void.
Astral sea and Astral plane have been interchangeable since its first couple of sentences in 5e

crude blaze
#

Doesn’t have to be the full section. I’ve seen copy/pasted content from paid publications taken down around here in the past for less.

#

And again, less a demand, more of a friendly heads up.

jagged apex
white ravine
jagged apex
#

at least with tharizdun's intentions mortals were never ment to

crude blaze
jagged apex
#

but he went crazy and got locked up before he could finish putting all the planar barriers and what not

crude blaze
#

It’s one of the downsides of a single edition’s lore going as long as it has, imo. They say one thing nearly 10 years ago, and then decide to try and retcon/change it.

jagged apex
crude blaze
#

That’s fair. They never really expanded on it beyond what was mentioned in the DMG.

#

Maybe I’m just slightly influenced by the perspective of people who know and swear by prior editions, where it definitely doesn’t match up in a lot of cases (from what I can tell).

jagged apex
#

and with what is writen in the dmg, seems both are somewhat up for interpritation, like one could ration that the astral sea is the strictly astral side of the astral plane which is noted to overlap the prime material plane

#

or otherwise could see it potentially being that the astral sea is just the inside of the astral plane itself

merry roost
#

While looking in the wiki, I am getting confused.
Is it one Prime Material Plane or many separate Material Planes in the Astral Plane?

unkempt merlin
jagged apex
crude blaze
unkempt merlin
iron saffron
#

There is one Material Plane (often referred as Prime Material Plane). The Astral Plane connects the Material Plane to the Outer Planes.

crude blaze
#

So Toril, Eberron, Oerth, etc. would (in what I recall off the top of my head) all be worlds within the Material Plane.

iron saffron
#

The Ethereal Plane connects the Material Plane to the Inner Planes (such as the Elemental Planes).

unkempt merlin
#

The material plane is fragmented into different planes, but it is still "one" material plane

#

Eberron is actually a different one however

crude blaze
#

Things get tricky with Eberron, which was initially designed to be its own separate place, but even Baker as of late has started leaning into Multiversal shenanigans.

iron saffron
#

I'm not an Eberron fan so its locale on the greater scheme of the multiverse is over my head...

unkempt merlin
#

Eberron is a second generation derivative of the first world, while all the other material planes are first generation ones

crude blaze
jagged apex
#

not really, as last i checked even with spelljamming in his continuity is far from being able to reach the edge of eberron's wildspace system and going into other settings

unkempt merlin
#

I was referring to canon rather than kanon there

#

And spelljamming doesn't exist in either

crude blaze
#

It does in his latest book, I think

unkempt merlin
#

(Keith has presented a number of options on how jamming can work)

jagged apex
#

if we use the first world and the sort of example that bigby's builds off of as a possible way Annem plays a role in it quote "A saga chanted among the giants of the Worldroot Circle describes a great tree that grew on the First World at the dawn of time. Planted and tended by the god Corellon, this tree was a seedling of the mighty Yggdrasil, the World Tree that connects all the Outer Planes. When the First World was destroyed, seeds from this great tree scattered into the void of the Material Plane. Myths say Annam nurtured each of these seeds until they sprouted and formed worlds of their own—all the myriad worlds that now constitute the Material Plane."

#

one could picture the prime material plane as a vast garden

#

and each setting a seed planted in said garden

#

if those seeds use to be part of one massive seed i guess ^^;

crude blaze
#

Yeah, 5E has definitely leaned in hard on the multiverse shenanigans

#

And admittedly, while the First World mythology (which I personally love and implement in my own games) is pretty interesting, it’s still presented, even in lore, as mythology.

jagged apex
#

seems natural, we spent so long focusing on one part of one continent on one planet in one setting, bout time to check out the rest of the cosmos in this latest incarnation if you ask me

crude blaze
#

Just because dragons say every world is a fragment of the First World and all of them are within the single Material Plane doesn’t inherently mean it’s true

merry roost
#

😕 Is it one fragmented Material Plane?

jagged apex
#

well, so far with another race's mythology and potentially others expanding apon it, it seems more likely to be true, not claiming it is inherently true

#

but it does help construct a potentially useful analogy

jagged apex
maiden mortar
jagged apex
#

there is apparently a 3rd party book of his that bridges eberron with ravenloft aka the domains of dread, and thus in theory could allow those who survive such a trip to potentially go across the multiverse called "Dread Metrol: Into the Mists - An Eberron / Ravenloft Crossover", but "Chronicles of Eberron" does seem to be his most recent, at least looking at dms guild

merry roost
#

If one continuous Material Plane, then a Spelljammer could fly to any would of the Material Plane without going to a different plane.
In the 5e Spelljammer wildspace systems are surrounded by the Astral Plane, making my previous statement false.
What is the false part of "one continuous Material Plane" ?

jagged apex
#

it is described in 5e spelljammer as "Wildspace is where the Astral Plane overlaps with the Material Plane. Creatures and objects in Wildspace age normally and exist on both planes simultaneously. This overlap enables creatures to use spells such as teleport and teleportation circle to travel from Wildspace to a nearby world, or vice versa."

#

so i guess, maybe you could describe it as fragmented

#

otherwise only other description we seem to really get is in the beginning of the paragraph just before that "Every world of the Material Plane is situated in Wildspace, or more precisely, in its own Wildspace system."

#

which is also compared to an airless ocean

wise dirge
#

Be it in settings or lore, have / is there any links between the Feywilde and Astral Plane?

#

Or are they completely separate fields of existence

iron saffron
#

No.

wise dirge
#

👍🏼👍🏼

knotty parcel
#

I have some knowledge about Menzobarrenzan (sorry if I butchered the spelling) and the drow culture from reading the first three Drizzt books, but I would like to expand my knowledge enough to have my party go there. Any good places I can specifically research that?

white ravine
knotty parcel
#

TY

iron saffron
knotty parcel
#

I just got a png of it, thank you.

iron saffron
#

I own a copy. Is there anything specific you're looking for?

knotty parcel
#

Not really, I just want them to have a lore-accurate encounter.

pine reef
#

Is Shadow Weave still a thing or its dead?

feral lintel
#

its dead with Mystra

white ravine
feral lintel
#

And according to the wiki, it died with Mystra cuz of a miscalcualation from Shar

iron saffron
#

Ignore what I just wrote. Yes, you're correct.

feral lintel
#

Though Shar sought to use Mystra's death to replace the Weave with the Shadow Weave, she had miscalculated; just as the Weave collapsed with the death of Mystra, so too did the Shadow Weave.

white ravine
#

Huh. Wack.

jagged apex
#

granted that is the last recorded on the wiki, which is from 4e

white ravine
#

Makes me wonder what the hell shadow magic is still doing in...existence, then.

jagged apex
#

so is potentially outdated

jagged apex
#

basically if nothing else is more rooted in the shadowfell itself rather than the shadow weave

white ravine
#

No no no, shadow magic

#

Stuff like phantasmal force

jagged apex
#

shadowstuff

white ravine
#

Apparently

jagged apex
#

which again is a substance from the shadowfell

#

plus looking on what was on the wiki, such spells were not dependent on the shadow weave, they simply were better when cast via the shadow weave as a sort of power source or filter compared to the normal weave https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Shadow_Weave

#

so honestly makes sense shadow magic did not just disappear with the shadow weave, but likely would be harder to do similar feats with such magic compared to those who did so via the shadow weave back when it was still around

#

at least not without first transporting yourself to the shadowfell for the casting of such spells, which probably could do more harm to the caster than to the would be victim or target

serene crater
#

quick question, but have there been any demons in FR lore that have worked alongside multiple demon lords but never gave fealty/aspired to be their own demon? (similar to be'lakor from warhamer)

jagged apex
#

but again, nothing in the sense of a named individual, most of the known named individuals are usually demon lords or in the service to a demon lord

#

at least to my knowledge

jagged apex
#

but i am no expert on warhammer so my comparison could be do to a misunderstanding of the character you are looking for someone similar to

#

and to be fair they and other demon lords have had alliances with other demon lords at time but sometimes those aliances were short lived

hot ferry
#

quick question for you higher level dnd nerds, is there a dragon known to inhabit the astral plane?

jagged apex
#

yep

#

astral dragons were a thing in past editions

iron saffron
hot ferry
#

oh cool, ok
are they also in 5e?

iron saffron
#

No.

jagged apex
#

not yet, at least not officially

#

the most recent dragon from past editions to be officially adapted to 5e was the time dragon

#

but you likely can either find some homebrew ones or make your own if you are willing to put in the work, be it searching or researching and converting stats and mechanics

#

and to my knowledge though they have yet to appear in 5e, i am not aware of any lore that prevents their existence from being possible still

hot ferry
#

ok, thank you

wise dirge
#

Do you say Eladrin Elf or just Eladrin?

iron saffron
#

Eladrin

wise dirge
#

Thanks!

jagged apex
modest badger
#

Yeah in 5e you can be:

  • Humanoid (Elf) Eladrin (The playable Eladrin race)
  • Fey (Elf) Eladrin (MPMM NPC Eladrin)
  • **Celestial (Elf) Elves **(not actually referred to as Eladrin, but matches the description from previous editions of celestial elflike natives born on Arborea) (DMG p.60)

So far 'Eladrin' from AD&D and 3.5 (Bralani, Course, Noviere, Shiere, Firre, Ghale and Tulani ) have yet to appear in 5e under those names... well I say that, I haven't checked Planescape yet, have they popped back up in there?

jagged apex
#

or as the wiki puts it "The term "eladrin" referred to a family of fey races or to specific races or subraces in that larger family."

modest badger
#

Dug into them a bit up here. Don't envy the wiki for having to try and keep that coherent. I blame 4e 😛

jagged apex
#

i am just saying, that is a more summarized way to put if, somewhat in an in universe manner

#

and one that i feel more or less works if trying to consolidate things where you can for the sake of running one's games in the forgotten realms, especially if you like those creatures that while not yet in 5e still have not been definitively disproven to exist in the current continuity

#

especially since to my knoweldge a lot of this research ryudio is doing for the sake of writing a campaign set in the realms and seems like me like to keep as in line with the established lore as possible

modest badger
#

Oh for sure. Not knocking the wiki it's summary, it's doing it's best with what is has and using designer notes (4e designers did say in a FAQ that 'eladrin' encompasses anything from High elves to noble celestials from 3e).

But still worth pointing out the meta behind these things because while the Wiki is trying to be as 'neutral' voice as possible and follow their own guides for how to deal with edition contradictions, as individuals knowing where these contradictions come in helps make informed decisions about them.

If trying to include lore from all editions, things get whacky. Like we wouldn't say elves should have infravision, dimlight vision and dark vision- they have infra in AD&D, dim light in 3e and dark in 5e. It's much saner to delineate by edition and use the mechanics and lore for that edition.

Eladrin in AD&D and 3.5 were not elves. They are natives to Arborea, making them good outsiders.

Eladrin in 4e were what we'd call high elves. They are fey and from the feywild, and things like 'Ghaele' and 'Bralani' were just titles, not different species (MM2 p.97).

Eladrin in 5e are a subtype of elf that can be humanoid or fey. They are natives to the feywild.
Natives of Arborea are celestial elves, and not mentioned to be eladrin. Things like 'Ghaele' and 'Bralani' have yet to be mentioned.

#

So in someways 'Celestial Eladrin' no longer actually exist.
Natives of Arborea are now Celestial elves (5e DMG p.60)

Arborea is home to many elves and elven deities. Elves born on this plane have the celestial type and are wild at heart, ready to battle evil in a heartbeat. Otherwise, they look and behave like normal elves.

And things like 'Ghaele' and 'Bralani' are titles for Fey Eladrin (4e MM2 p.97)

Like 'bralani' and 'ghaele', the term 'coure' is a title of nobility. Any Rank associated with such a title varies among different eladrin lands and clans. However, all eladrin that attain such ranks adopt spheres of influence and are invested with powers pertaining to those spheres

#

Unless you argue that the elves of arborea are Celestial (elf) eladrin (subrace). Which you could, but wasn't stated. Eladrin in the DMG wasn't associated to arborea, and arborea elves weren't called eladrin.

pine reef
#

What is temporary death lore-wise? Like a character gets killed, 3x death saving throws or take enough damage to just die, and require resurrection. Is coming back traumatic, or it is nothing? Not talking about the average commoner, mean the adventurer player characters.

modest badger
#

We don't have much info in 5e.

When a creature dies, its soul departs its body, leaves the Material Plane, travels through the Astral Plane, and goes to abide on the plane where the creature's deity resides. If the creature didn't worship a deity, its soul departs to the plane corresponding to its alignment. Bringing someone back from the dead means retrieving the soul from that plane and returning it to its body.
(...)
A soul can't be returned to life if it doesn't wish to be. A soul knows the name, alignment, and patron deity (if any) of the character attempting to revive it and might refuse to return on that basis.
DMG p.24

So the soul is brought back from the Astral plane or the plane of their deity, but only if willing. It knows details about the spellcaster to make an informed choice on that.

pine reef
#

What about previous editions lorewise?

modest badger
#

In much earlier editions bringing brought back often weakened you or could kill you. That's no longer the case in 5e.
Trauma wise that's less lore and probably more individual reactions to dying

pine reef
#

Hmmm.

#

So, in 5e basically dying has no consequences, but in previous editions there were. I like the previous editions, dying should have consequences.

ionic rivet
#

Well I mean in 5e if the party doesn't have the resources or connections, character death can be permanent.

#

That seems fairly consequential to me.

modest badger
#

3.5, Raise Dead: Lose 1 permanent level, or 2 points of Con if 1st level (if it can't lose that, it can't be raised). Also 50% loses prepared spells/ spell slots it had on death. (1 day per caster level is the limit)

3.5, Resurrection: Same as raise dead, but no spell loss.

AD&D 1e Raise Dead: Must make a save or die, and even then need 1 day of rest per day of being dead. (1 day per caster level is the limit). The Caster also loses 1 year of their lifespan. And only worked on certain races.

AD&D 1e Resurrection: Punishes the caster instead, who needs 1 day of rest per level of the person raised. Also only works on certain races.

2e I believe was similar, but removed some racial restrictions and I think the lifespan cost.

These measures caused death spirals and generally made a fallen character less and less enjoyable to play, or worse punished the caster instead. But this is getting more into #dm-discussion on how to make death meaningful and less about lore.

last scaffold
#

Raise dead and resurrection inflicts a -4 penalty to to your rolls and the penalty goes down by one per long rest.

modest badger
#

Which edition?

#

Although if a houserule for making death more consequential, I'd say this is #dm-discussion and for earlier edition rules I feel this is more #dnd-elder-editions than lore.

Lore wise the only real differences I know between editions (influenced by mechanics) is that previously souls (and spirits) went into the ethereal plane before reaching their deities plane. And some races (like elves) had spirits instead of souls, so could not be raised/rezzed.

cedar badger
#

I have a lore question. What the hell is Tethyamarside? Everywhere about Daggerdale has it's name, but there is no detail for it. All the information I got is Tethyamarside is a dwarf settlement that is now destroyed by orcs and other kind of foes, but pottentially these informations are wrong.

modest badger
#

All I can find on that is from this site:

Tethyamarside. This village was created by Ian R. Malcomson, one of the volunteer mappers for the FR Interactive Atlas CD and is thus an official location. A village map is available on the CD.

Ian R. Malcomson is listed as:

Author of Legends of Sherwood in Dragon #274 and the Dark Ages setting in Dragon #257 and #263.

Ian also produced maps for Wizards of the Coast online 3rd Edition adventures, and worked as a co-ordinator on the Forgotten Realms Interactive Atlas for ProFantasy.

Which appears to be referencing this: https://www.profantasy.com/fratlas/FRAtlashome.htm

#

Not sure if it actually is an official location by those means, but the CD is an official product so...

#

But the answer is probably, beyond that source, there will be little information on it.
And due to the nature of digital sources like this, bit hard to quote or find information on without getting hold of an out of date CD

grim siren
#

The interactive atlas is such a good resource

modest badger
#

Do you know if there is still a way to access it?
Looks like there is this version from the Wizard's Archive, which is the final updated version, that can be downloaded but needs the original CD. And then the site up above seems to have a converted version for Campaign Cartographer but I'm not sure how that works.

grim siren
#

Not legally sadly. I found my copy at an estate sale.

The atlas itself was made in Campaign Cartographer 2 it has like 800 maps in it and its all vectorized.

wise dirge
#

Is it that Eladrin actually change features depending on the season (spring, winter, etc.) they're in? Or that there are 4 subcategories of Eladrin that represent each season?

white ravine
#

They can change, based on their current emotion

jagged apex
#

this is reflected by subraces, but technically it is something they can choose to do if they wish

#

some fey eladrin simply remain in which ever state matches their mood and personality

crude blaze
#

The player can choose to change it based on the eladrin PC’s emotions

#

So I imagine non-PC eladrins function the same way

jagged apex
#

or to quote their summary as of their latest reprinting in monsters of the multiverse "Eladrin are elves of the Feywild, a realm of perilous beauty and boundless magic. Using that magic, eladrin can step from one place to another in the blink of an eye, and each eladrin resonates with emotions captured in the Feywild in the form of seasons—affinities that affect the eladrin’s mood and appearance. An eladrin’s season can change, though some remain in one season forever."

#

the statblocks likely are just for ease of use as this change is not really something done in the midst of combat

#

but canonically the changing forms is optional for pc and npc of the race

surreal rune
#

Because it is stereotyped that the feywild and the shadowfell are opposite. Wouldn't it make sense for an all of War between the two, and most importantly a war between shadar-kai and eladrin

jagged apex
#

no

#

opposites don't automatically mean they want each other dead, especially over something neither has any influence in what so ever

#

and it is not really a steretype, it is fact, because they are two mirrors of the prime material plane, one with life in abundance and the other not so much

#

heck to my knowledge races from the two planes rarely interact with one another in any meaningful way

magic jackal
#

opposites do not always have to be at war lol

#

I mean devils and demons are not opposites and yet they are constantly at war

jagged apex
#

plus if the two mirriored planes did go to war, the bulk of the death and destruction would be on the prime material plane

#

which would literally be caught in the middle of again, a pointless war, cuz at least the blood war makes sense why the two are constantly warring

surreal rune
jagged apex
#

to my knowledge there is nothing that would be a reason for the two to go to war, so if you wanna do that in your own games, i'd suggest also homebrewing some sort of being or item that would justify them going to war

#

honestly the seelie and unseelie courts in the feywild probably are already at war with one another last i checked or at the very least are at odds/are enemies

magic jackal
#

The Fey is emotion and the Shadowfell is lack of emotion, to be really simplified.

#

The fey is usually consumed by internal political strife, so it'd be hard for them to go to war outside of their own concerns

jagged apex
#

eh, life in abundance and scarcity of life seems more apt, as negative emotions play a role in the creatures in the shadowfell and even how it functions in some instances

magic jackal
#

and the shadowfell probably just isn't driven to war in the first place, they just kinda exist in stagnant, apathetic, perpetuity

magic jackal
#

I think the shadowfell is more defined by apathy and stagnancy, while the feywild is defined by change and vibrancy

jagged apex
#

yes, but to say the shadowfell is a lack of emotion just seems inaccurate

magic jackal
jagged apex
#

to quote the dmg's description of the plane "The Shadowfell, also called the Plane of Shadow, is a dimension of black, gray, and white where most other color has been leached from everything. It is a place of darkness that hates the light, where the sky is a black vault with neither sun nor stars.

The Shadowfell overlaps the Material Plane in much the same way as the Feywild. Aside from the colorless landscape, it appears similar to the Material Plane. Landmarks from the Material Plane are recognizable on the Shadowfell, but they are twisted and warped — distorted reflections of what exists on the Material Plane. Where a mountain stands on the Material Plane, the corresponding feature on the Shadowfell is a jagged rock outcropping with a resemblance to a skull, a heap of rubble, or perhaps the crumbling ruin of a once-great castle. A forest on the Shadowfell is dark and twisted, its branches reaching out to snare travelers’ cloaks, and its roots coiling and buckling to trip those who pass by.
Shadow dragons and undead creatures haunt this bleak plane, as do other creatures that thrive in the gloom, including cloakers and darkmantles."

#

and has a close relationship with death too if you also look at how shadow crossings manifest

magic jackal
#

Bit gothic.

jagged apex
#

still, just seems life and lack of like or even death, seems the more accurate comparison of the core nature of the two mirrors

magic jackal
#

change and lack of change I think?
but that's just me relating death to stagnancy, because it's by definition halting the natural change of the world.

jagged apex
#

to be fair, the closeness with death it has was stronger after shaar turned it into the shadowfell we know today back when during either 3.5e or 4e before the energy planes drifted to the edges of the cosmos where they are in the current cosmology model, she infused the plane of shadow with a pinch so to speak of the negative energy plane, so is possible prior to that it was more so negative emotion and gloom

steady verge
#

Zariel is demon born??

jagged apex
#

no

iron saffron
#

She was a fallen angel (celestial).

jagged apex
#

not sure how you came to the conclusion she was

steady verge
#

Misread

#

Zariel is said to have criticized the people on Mount Celestial for not getting involved in the Blood War, then it says she went to war against Bel

#

I read “Person went to war against Devil in Blood War must be demon”

jagged apex
#

nope, she was an angel before hand, Solar to be precise, one of the strongest of the angels, she intended to murder the devils and demons on both sides

pine reef
#

isn't that basically what that angel did in Planescape Torment?

#

seems kinda ripoff.

jagged apex
#

what angel?

pine reef
#

Trias, a Deva.

#

He is a Deva, one of the various types of angels in the cosmology of Dungeons & Dragons.

Before the events of the game, Trias was a radical towards the conflict between the forces of good and evil and he wanted the angels to make a direct action in the war between the Baatezu (devils) and the Tan'arri (demons) in order to destroy both of them. When they refused his request, Trias gathered an army of fiends to attack the upper planes in order to convince his peers that he was right.

jagged apex
#

from what i could find, there was nothing specific, he was simply a celestial that fell from grace

iron saffron
#

Fallen angels criticizing their superiors isn't new. It's been around since John Milton's Paradise Lost (probably even before then).

jagged apex
#

granted even then from what you said there are notable differences and again is not something unique to any one individual

pine reef
#

it's been a few years since I played the game. from what I recall, the heavens would try to placate both the demons and devils and selling arms/arming both in order to avoid the attention of both, and trias wanted more to be done in the blood war and lead a crusade to try to stir the heavens into action kinda like zariel.

#

is planescape torment considered canon btw?

iron saffron
#

No.

pine reef
#

shame.

jagged apex
pine reef
#

it what introduced me to the D&D.

jagged apex
#

each media and each edition is considered it's own continuity

pine reef
#

what does that mean?

jagged apex
#

would have been soft canon at best, ie until something contradicted it in the actually game

iron saffron
#

It's like the MCU movies being its own canon compared to the Marvel Comic' canon lore.

jagged apex
#

it means just cuz something happens in the games, or a movie, or a book, does not mean they are the definitive say on the matter, it is a specific continuity or take on the setting

#

this is why sometimes things like the skin color of drow and drizzt specifically can vary from depiction to depiction and is not a major issue

pine reef
#

aha, I understand.

iron saffron
#

Game developers have licensed out D&D for decades. Unless TSR/WotC says otherwise, the games' lore doesn't affect D&D's lore. However, some of the characters from the 1980s "gold box" TSR CRPGs are canon because they were also tied to TSR's published novels, such as Azure Bonds.

jagged apex
#

wizards of the coast explained this a while back when they went and made a clear public statement on how they treat and have always treated canon in dnd

iron saffron
#

Besides, each new edition tends to update or retcons the previous edition's lore.

jagged apex
#

yeah like even what is published in books and what is in ed greenwood's original version of the realms has differences, in short there is no ONE continuity

iron saffron
#

4E did a 180 on a lot of FR lore only to have 5E retconn most of 4E's changes.

jagged apex
#

much like IP like dragonball, which often has 2 continuities, manga and anime, and the movies being isolated, just to use another franchise or IP as an example, events can also happen differently or simply have always been different, hence the differences between the likes of zaratan and pheonix in 5e compared to past incarnations and why sometimes when adapting older material it often, in addition to simply times and norms of society change, they are reimagined to fit the current edition's continuity of the published lore

jagged apex
#

5e basically did what dc did with the new 52 after they learned how disliked it was, kept what worked or that people liked enough and worked to undo everything people disliked

iron saffron
#

Which was pretty much most of it...

jagged apex
# iron saffron Besides, each new edition tends to update or retcons the previous edition's lore...

and thus while often moves forward in the timeline, is not necessarily in the same continuity, hence why sometimes i describe it as jumping timelines, using the major cosmos altered events between editions to act as a means to change which edition of the published history is basically the "prime timeline" if you are familiar with marvel comics and how they use branched universe theory to determine what is the guaranteed future and what is an alternate reality

#

now i am just wondering if to keep their lives from being too boring, if some time dragons basically act like dnd's version of the TVA

#

at least until the Quarut is potentially reintroduced into the 5e continuity it seems like a valid possibility XD

cedar badger
#

It's most likely they placed the town to fill with content later, but they forgot the town it seems

#

In my game, since I had to decide what's tethyamarside before today's session, I turned tethyamarside into a rubble town. Once was a settlement ruled by Moradin dwarves, who mined Iron and other ores from Tethyamarsmouth Mountains, then turn the iron into valuable items such as armors and weapons. But Gruumsh followers decided to raid the town, destroy it and claim the trophy. They were successful on destroying the towns folk, so they claimed the territory. Since the town of tethyamarside is a town on the middle of a road, they started getting tax from bypassers

#

So this is the lore I made up

jagged apex
cedar badger
#

Since it didn't actually exist

#

Or isn't special

jagged apex
#

so my guess is you may be misremembering tethyamar as this, to my knowledge, non existent "tethyamarside"

modest badger
modest badger
jagged apex
#

ah

maiden mortar
#

Can clerics of Ptah do anything at all in the Pholgiston?

modest badger
#

I believe they can cast as normal, but cannot recover spells. Trying to find the source.

#

When his priests enter the phlogiston, they are able to use the spells they have stored up. The DM should have the character write down the spells he would like to use while in the phlogiston before a spell casting situation arises. This gives the character the spells he asked for before leaving the sphere.
Realmspace p.78

#

This is 2e Lore. In 5e of course the Phlog isn't even a thing anymore.

jagged apex
#

basically back in the days when the phlogiston was a thing, anything having to do with the afterlife, other planes of existance, or the gods, in any way was cut off cuz the phlogiston was basically not connected to the other planes, if anything was only connected to the rest of the prime material plane, at least from my understanding

prisma skiff
#

Do Elf subraces have known opinions of each other?

#

(P.S. I'm new)

#

Also Hi

modest badger
#

I'd say any such things would be highly reductive. Individuals have individual opinions of each other, and no one 'subrace' is monolithic. If one group of elves has an opinion on an neighbouring group of elves, that doesn't mean another group miles away will share those same opinions. There were such broad generalisations in earlier editions, but no longer.

In general however the drow don't tend to get along with any other type of elf.

prisma skiff
#

Got it

unkempt merlin
#

Also depends on the setting. In some, like Eberron, subraces aren't quite a "distinct" thing. They are an individual thing. Ex: two rock gnomes have a kid, their kid might be a forest gnome

prisma skiff
#

How does that work (mutations)?

spark haven
#

"magic", mostly. I don't think there's much genetic sequencing in the published lore

#

sometimes "divine magic"

prisma skiff
#

Got it.
(Unlearn my inner Clarke and embrace the Tolkein)

spark haven
#

Yeah, it's important to remember that these are stories. They exist for an explicit purpose, they are created. Some parts get left out or glossed over because they don't serve the primary purpose

#

the lore doesn't go into reproductive stuff because none of that's actually necessary for creating stories about dungeon crawls, overthrowing tyrants, and slamming spaceships into mindflayers

#

People have relations with each other, kids get born. That's all we really need

unkempt merlin
#

It's simply an expression of an individual

#

It makes particular sense when for a lot of races, namely gnomes, elves, dwarves, and halflings, that most of the subraces are almost entirely cultural

spark haven
#

"race" is a confusing name with a lot of baggage

#

it's a cultural marker, not a biological one

prisma skiff
prisma skiff
unkempt merlin
#

In the gnome example from before, rock gnome traits represent an intellectual curiosity and aptitude for magic. Forest gnome traits would represent a love and connection to nature

unkempt merlin
prisma skiff
tardy wasp
#

How is Selune's religion practiced in inland regions of Faerun like Silverymoon or Cormyr, where her connection to seafaring and tides would likely be of less relevance?

The majority of what I've found online only discusses her faith in coastal cities, like Waterdeep and Amn.

rough totem
#

Hey am Starting to get back into D&D, Am wondering if anyone would be able to help me figure out new lore and other Stuff that I've probably missed?

iron saffron
#

Which campaign setting lore do you want to know about?

#

5E hasn't had much new lore because WotC only considers the stuff in the core books and the new campaign books "official lore" now. They want put the emphasis on individual DMs to create their own lore at their own table than WotC decreeing it via novels, comics, etc like back in 2E and 3E days.

sharp owl
#

You're confusing 'official' with 'canon'

#

All the books Wizards of the Coast puts out for D&D fifth edition is official lore

#

However, there's no overarching canon

#

aka, there's no "The events of Adventure B follow Adventure A assuming the ending of A was X"

iron saffron
#

Sorry I meant to add canon in there.

sharp owl
#

Canon is, broadly speaking, irrelevant to this channel at best and a detriment to discussion at worst

#

However @rough totem, OldManYellingAtClouds is 100% correct that you need to specify which setting you're looking for information on lore

#

Broadly speaking, not a massive amount of Forgotten Realms lore has been added. We've had a lot of more 'multiversal'/cross setting lore such as the stuff about the First World presented in Fizban's Treasury of Dragons and Bigby Presents Glory of the Giants

#

As is the tradition with Eberron, there's no new lore because every edition starts from the same time period, which is by design for the setting

unkempt merlin
sharp owl
#

We've had some changes to lore for Ravenloft, the nature of the demiplane has been changed somewhat so that the Domains of Dread are no longer geologically arranged and instead are loosely connected by travel via The Mists. Also some of the domains have been changed/retconned

#

Spelljammer has had some revisions; Crystal Spheres and Phlogiston are gone. Wildspace is now the overlap between the Astral Sea and a bubble of the material plane that surrounds the worlds of that plane/setting, with the Astal Sea lying between wildspace systems

#

Some changes to the Planescape setting, most prominently the Outlands; locations have been added, removed, or renamed

#

Got a new micro-setting in the form of the Radiant Citadel, a utopian refuge for those in need floating in the ethereal plane

jagged apex
#

if memory serves, the domains of dread, in the 5e continuity are a series of territories within a specific section of the shadowfell that is controlled by the dark powers

white ravine
#

I will say after reading through the new planwscape book, the gatetown updates aren't half bad.

sharp owl
#

Exandria is now a WotC published setting (although still owned by Critical Role) so falls under the umbrella of official lore

white ravine
#

Bit lax on some details, and an...odd choice here and there, but still great solid

jagged apex
#

i imagine that exandria is like eberron, at the very least the creators have their own continuity and wizards has their own which is what gets published by them

sharp owl
#

Also we have the Magic: the Gathering setting books that while their connection to the broader D&D multiverse is..........questionable at best, they again fall under the umbrella of D&D lore

sharp owl
jagged apex
#

ah

sharp owl
#

Because as I said, it's owned by Critical Role in its entirity

#

(which is why I made the point to say "although still owned by Critical Role")

jagged apex
#

fair

sharp owl
#

Nothing like Eberron, which is 100% owned by Wizards of the Coast

unkempt merlin
#

Eberron is the same as the FR in the sense of "it is fully and legally owned by WotC but the creators still do stuff for it"

jagged apex
#

ah

white ravine
rough totem
iron saffron
#

The free Basic Rules has most of the magic items found in the 5E DMG.

white ravine
jagged apex
#

the other differences are not really lore so would be better taked about in other channels

iron saffron
#

Magic items throughout the editions may keep the same names but game mechanics-wise be different dependant on the edition (which is out of the purview of this channel).

#

There isn't much lore on magic items outside of artifacts.

grim siren
#

Most if not all adventures for the Forgotten Realms have a date either listed or associated. So you can follow from one to the other in a flow. As far as endings, those are hard so typically they end with the Status Quo that changes the world the least.

#

D&D 5e
Dragons of Stormwreck Isle

1481 DR
Tyranny of Dragons
1485/1486 DR
Out of the Abyss
1486/1487 DR
Storm King's Thunder
1485-1492 DR
Tomb of Annihilation
1488-1492 DR
Icewind Dale: Rime of the Frostmaiden
1489 DR
Lost Mines of Phandelver
1491 DR
Phandelver and Below: The Shattered Obelisk
1491 DR
Princes of the Apocolypse
1491 DR
Dragon of Icepspire Peak
1491 DR
Curse of Strahd
1491 DR
Waterdeep: Dragon Heist
1492 DR
Waterdeep: Dungeon of the Mad Mage
1492 DR
Baldur's Gate: Descent into Avernus
1492 DR
Orrery of the Wanderer
1496 DR

iron saffron
#

Huh RotFM was before LMoP

grim siren
#

Pages 30‒31 of Lost Mine of Phandelver describe the eruption of Mount Hotenow (1451 DR) as occurring "30 years ago", which would place the adventure in 1481 DR. However, pages 103 and 179 of Acquisitions Incorporated, a later source, state that the events described in the adventure happen five years after both Lost Mine of Phandelver and Princes of the Apocalypse. Since the latter is explicitly set in 1491 DR. And then Ed Greenwood confirmed 1490s DR while still writing novels for WOTC

#

1491 DR sucked for the Sword Coast lmao

iron saffron
#

This is more confusing than DC Comics' timelines...

grim siren
#

I mean its okay BG DiA can't even do math right.

#

Baldur's Gate: Descent into Avernus: the adventure itself, described in chapters 1 through 5, takes place "fifty years" after 1444 DR (1494 DR), according to events mentioned in pages 7 and 47, while the Baldur's Gate Gazetteer describes the city as of 1492 DR (p. 159).

It is possible that the designers made an approximation for "fifty years", even though it is stated in an infernal contract. For shame.

The lead writer for Baldur's Gate: Descent into Avernus later confirmed that the adventure takes place in 1492 DR, and the sequel to the adventure, Baldur's Gate III, also claims that the current year is 1492 DR in multiple places.

iron saffron
#

The FR calendar years have names so why not just name the year name?

grim siren
#

1492 DR TheYear of Three Ships Sailing

Boooo! Booo!

wise dirge
#

Are Goblins and/or Orcs Fey? Heard this earlier and got mixed results when Googling into the answer

sharp owl
#

Goblins have a fey origin, which is reflected in their Fey Ancestry trait that the PC race option has

modest badger
#

They are not Fey as a creature type, but goblins now have Fey Ancestry, similar to Elves, since MPMM

#

Orcs do not as far as I'm aware?

sharp owl
#

In most creation stories, the orcs are the work of Gruumsh and were created on the material plane

jagged apex
wise dirge
#

Ooh okay, that’s all interesting! So they either gained or at some had a connection to Fey. It’s actually been really engaging looking into DND lore so be it race lore or the different planes

jagged apex
#

but as of their latest appearance in the 5e continuity goblinoids are of fey ancestry, as detailed in the player options published along side such lore in the setting agnostic "monsters of the multiverse"

jagged apex
#

essencially they expanded apon the largely unknown days before maglubiyet's rise to power among the goblonoid gods

#

hobgoblin and bugbears theirs are at least comparatively more vague

gusty pulsar
#

why is Asteria the "first canon autistic d&d character" theres a non verbal character who speaks through her parrot in cotn

sharp owl
#

You can be non-verbal without being autistic and you can be autistic without being non-verbal

jagged apex
#

yeah

sharp owl
#

Also Call of the Netherdeep is a Critical Role set adventure, so not part of the D&D multiverse

gusty pulsar
jagged apex
#

and again, being autistic and being a mute are 2 very different things

sharp owl
#

It's not

#

Explicitly and legally the Critical Role setting is a distinct entity from the D&D multiverse

gusty pulsar
#

sure

sharp owl
#

All rights reserved. Critical Role, the Critical Role logos, Percival Fredrickstein Von Musel Klossowski De Rolo III, Tal’Dorei, the world of Exandria, its groups of individuals and its distinctive characters, elements and locations are the sole property of Critical Role under copyright law and trademark law, as applicable, in the USA and around the world.

#

So let's say this CR character is neurodivergent, they'd still not be a character within the lore of WotCs settings/multiverse

iron saffron
#

Critical Role originally started with 3E years ago as a home game so they took elements, such as Vecna, from D&D lore.

sharp owl
#

actually it started with 4th edition

#

then went to Pathfinder

#

Then 5th

modest badger
#

There have officially been plenty of neurodivergent characters in D&D, even from 1e. But I believe this is the first time they've been explicitly acknowledged as autistic and not just described with neurodivergent mannerisms (or worse in older editions, ablist language and slurs)

iron saffron
#

I stand corrected (I must have mixed up their use of PF with 3E).

modest badger
#

Well I say plenty. There's a few . Some you need to read into more, others are a bit more obvious but still not 'explicitly acknowledged'.

grim siren
#

Exandria is not part of the Multiverse?

sleek marten
#

Shakespeare, DC Comics, and My Little Pony are part of the multiverse, in theory.

sharp owl
#

There are some weird hints that it is, but it's not officially

#

Actually, there's one and that's not a decision made by WotC or Critical Role, so it's super weird

#

This is a spoiler for ||Descent into Avernus|| << Playing it super careful here, check what adventure it's a spoiler for before reading the spoiler below. Also it's a spoiler for ||Critical Role|| << Live Play show

--Spoilers below--

||So WotC asked Joe Manganiello if his character Arkhan wanted to return to the FR canon following his appearance in Force Grey. However, Joe treats all appearances/depictions of Arkhan as part of Arkhan's own canon. So this means that Arkhan's appearance in Critical Role is part of the Arkhanon and so Joe brough that with him into Arkhan's appearance in Descent into Avernus. There is a single mention of Exandria:||
||"Arkhan visits the monument to commune with his queen and report on his ongoing battle of wills to master the Hand of Vecna, which came into his possession during a brief excursion to the world of Exandria."||

#

I guess the best way to think of it is there's a single, fine thread between the D&D multiverse and the Critical Role multiverse
Kinda like there's a likewise fine thread between the D&D multiverse and the Magic: the Gathering multiverse

grim siren
#

So literally every article or statement that says Critical Role Joins the DnD Multiverse is just false?

sharp owl
#

Depends if

  1. It's being literal or figurative
  2. It's made by WotC or not
unkempt merlin
#

Just because Exandria is still owned by Critical Role doesn't make it not also a part of the DnD multiverse.

#

It's referenced in more than just ||DiA|| as well

grim siren
#

Exandria, which is the world in which Wildemount is a continent, fits into the D&D multiverse insofar as it is another world in the material plane. So just like Eberron or Toril, or Krynn, or Athas, it exists in that same sphere. [...] This is a universe born out of one man's imagination, for the most part. And, it is also born out a livestream game. This is kind of a first for official D&D campaign settings.

Chris Perkins

https://youtu.be/fp0G3-ED0Fg?si=yx3_A5bIiXTJ7RKM&t=11

unkempt merlin
unkempt merlin
sharp owl
#

That interview, taken in the proper context, is Perkins explaining that it's another setting like the ones people who aren't familiar with critical role might be aware of

Aka non literal

Ultimately WotC cannot and does not claim it to be part of any of their IP range that makes up the D&D multiverse

#

Who knows if that'll change

unkempt merlin
#

The other example I posted above does include it as part of the DnD multiverse

grim siren
#

So we aren't supposed to take Chris Perkins at his word?

sharp owl
#

That feels like an aggressively loaded question, so I'll pass and duck out
Byeeeeee

grim siren
#

I am not trying to be combative, I am trying to understand. If everyone says its part of the multiverse even the lead designer for narrative then... I am confused that lawyer speak is what is stopping it

unkempt merlin
#

Even without what Chris Perkins said, it is included in multiple books and is referenced as part of the dnd multiverse

#

(Also on a similar note, the MtG settings and concepts are referenced more than once as part of the dnd multiverse. One such place being the same as the other mention of Exandria, as a specific part of the multiverse)

sharp owl
#

I must apologise, it does seem I was incorrect and while still it's own distinct IP, Exandria appears to be integrated into the D&D multiverse, albeit in a slightly more restrained capacity due to the nature of it not being a WotC ip

#

Sorry for my bristly response, I misread things as getting a little more confrontational than perhaps I have the spoons for

grim siren
#

Its all cool chief, when the official stance for many is "purposeful ambiguity" things get confusing.

grim siren
#

All creatures have True Names

#

why did the Q get deleted?

sharp owl
merry roost
#

Why is there not an order/chaotic equivalent of the Book of Exalted Deeds / Book of Vile Darkness?

jagged apex
#

pretty easy, either nobody has ever thought to create such a thing or if they do exists, there are yet to be desicovered

iron saffron
#

No such books exited in any of the editions.

jagged apex
#

not every single thing needs a counter part nessissarily

#

plus with those books being good and evil respectively and not differentiating between what kind of evil, would arguably be a little redundant

iron saffron
#

If you want to know why then ask Gygax since he created the Book of Vile Darkness and Book of Exalted Deeds for 1E AD&D.

jagged apex
#

not to mention a book of chaotic nature at it's core would constantly be changing far too much for anyone to ever get a hold of it

merry roost
jagged apex
#

more or less, closest thing would be if you made a book version of what Diancastra gave Annam in her saga, included in the begging of bigy's glory of the giants

#

which was a mote of matter from, presumably, the elemental chaos

#

plus one could argue a book of chaos would be too orderly for an artifact ment to embody chaos

#

plus we already have historically the rod of 7 parts otherwise known as the rod of law if i remember correctly, so if wanting counterparts, a similar chaos rod to me would be more fitting

#

(bonus points in my opinion if you can make it tied in some way to the rod of 7 parts)

#

plus the rod of 7 parts has a narrative in it's lore that easily could make up an entire campaign

merry roost
#

Is there a celestial version of infernal iron?

iron saffron
merry roost
#

How good/useful would an alloy of Infernal Iron and Celestial Steel be?

white ravine
#

I'd imagine mixing them together would probably either ruin both or make it explode the second they made contact

unique bough
#

if a beholder could wish for anything what would they normally wish for

#

as they view themselves as perfect beings

white ravine
#

A beholder would probably wish for anything between something extremely personal, something extremely petty, or something extremely disrupting

#

Maybe they want another sandwich that a guy made several years ago that the beholder has yet to find, or the beholder wants a dragon to stub its toe on a rock every day for the rest of its life, or maybe it asks for an entire kingdom to worship it causing all of it's inhabitants to flock to its lair...in which it goes paranoia-crazy and starts blasting its adoring fans apart as they cheer in glee.

jagged apex
wise dirge
#

What planes, if any, are the most connected to dreams and/or mirages?

white ravine
#

Ethereal plane has some big illusory influence, and dreamstuff is a big part of the astral plane

wise dirge
#

Duly noted, and that works out well because I’ve been very interested in the Astral Plane. I know Githyanki are tied heavily to it

white ravine
#

Realm of thought and manifestations, the playground and graveyard of the gods.

#

Those with psychic talent thrive there as shapers of reality, where those who lack it drift endlessly and unspoiled through the purple and black sea.

wise dirge
#

So for those who lack those abilities it’s almost like a peaceful lostness

#

Scary but strangely serene

jagged apex
#

but when i try to find info on that specifically the closest thing i can find is the realm of the same name, properly knonw as Dal Quor, in the eberron setting, though to my knowledge that is not related to the region of dreams mentioned in the demiplane of nightmares

unkempt merlin
#

Dal Quor is entirely unrelated to planes in non Eberron settings yes

jagged apex
#

is a bit of a shame, in my opinion, that the one in the forogtten realms does not really have any info other than it being refferenced in passing when describing the demiplane of nightmares, would be neat if we actually had some information on it

rough fractal
#

FR @grim siren

grim siren
#

There are three main ways.

1.) Obtain Spark Of Divinity

This could be done by killing a god or stealing their essence. Or on very rare occasions they can be granted by Lord Ao.

2.) Gain enough Worshippers.

Start a cult and eventually you will be granted Quasi Deity status assuming your cult is successful you will have tot take that power and attack another god to get their portfolio

3.) Walk into God's house and commit a bit of theft.

Tap into a God's raw essence and tap a bit for yourself.

rough fractal
#

How does that second one work?

iron saffron
rough fractal
#

I thought that was a specific power of the fish

iron saffron
#

Gods gain/lose their divine power (aka divine rank) based on the number of believers.

rough fractal
#

So how are evil gods so powerful when they often have less followers? Shouldn't the most powerful gods be the ones most applicable to everyone, like farming?

iron saffron
rough fractal
#

There's a lot more oppressed farmers than worshippers of tyranny

iron saffron
#

Chauntea is the greater goddess of agriculture

sharp owl
#

Evil gods are quick to hand out power and rewards and also tend to advocate easy paths to power and desires

iron saffron
#

You don't need to directly worship a god.

sharp owl
#

If you want to get into "How can this work?" #dm-world-building would be a much better channel

iron saffron
#

Umberlee is the evil goddess of the seas but non-worshippers still give her lip service / offer a small sacrifice so they have a safe sailing.

sharp owl
#

Lore wise, for example, Asmodeus gathers worshippers through giving them power and influence

rough fractal
sharp owl
#

Evil gods tend to be a lot more hands on

iron saffron
#

The Zhentil Keep was dedicated to the now Dead Three.

rough fractal
sharp owl
#

It's generally considered one by the deities of various settings

jagged apex
# rough fractal How does that second one work?

is honestly even harder in the forgotten realms at least after the time of troubles to my knowledge, since now no new gods are allowed in realmspace at least out of mortals without lord Ao's approval

sharp owl
#

Taking the Forgotten Realms as an example, many of the deities up near the good corner of the chart position themselves as valuing the autonomy of their worshippers and not getting too "hands on"

rough fractal
#

That seems very counterintuitive to the Good value of stopping Evil

sharp owl
#

Whereas those down nearer the evil corner tend to treat mortals as their pawns

sharp owl
rough fractal
#

I'm talking Alignment values, not moral philosophy. Capital G

sharp owl
#

I know what you're talking about and my point does still stand

rough fractal
#

We've seen historically that heroic intervention is seen as a Good action in the Realms

#

For example, Mielikki applauds Drizzt for it soon after escaping the Underdark

sharp owl
#

The Good aligned deities balance fighting evil with what's best for mortals

#

My point was "how is a non-interventionist stance best for anyone" would be a philosophical question beyond the scope of this channel

#

It's simply what the Good aligned deities advocate

#

Across all D&D settings, being more hands-off is a trait common to Good aligned deities

#

As to why that's a common trait; philosophy

jagged apex
# rough fractal Why? Is non-interventionist behavior a Good trait?

in the case of the dead 3 it may be they don't care of the consequences and are just that power hungry, their continued hands approached being to my understanding being part of why they have such a reduced divine status in the present, all the other gods having to not get directly involved with mortals and their affairs or be dramatically reduced in power, presumably why in things like bg3 mystra's chosen are the ones acting on her behalf

#

like the dead 3 do to once being mortals, likely are still rather poorly using their divine power, and are often probably blinded of the bigger picture by their desire for more power

rough fractal
jagged apex
#

as for why the good gods are not intervening directly is cuz they did not want to lose power, often the gods in general are often rather selfish with very few even among the good gods, being altruistic at least in the realms

rapid jetty
#

Do Clerics of Ao exist?

jagged apex
#

technically, yes, but they got no power so many if not all of them gave up XD

grim siren
#

There is a Cult of Ao. But Ao cares not for their worship. Ao does not grant spells and does not answer prayers. So the Cult has little to no power politically.

iron saffron
jagged apex
iron saffron
#

Most mortals don't know Ao exist.

jagged apex
#

at least they didn't until that one time he appeared to chastise the gods after casting them down

#

any divine power they had was apparently do to cryric

iron saffron
#

It's as if Ao was created just for the Time of Troubles cataclysm novels...

jagged apex
#

they, being the ministers of the cult of Ao

#

so unless you count those ministers, no, clerics to Ao did/do not exist

rapid jetty
#

How does Ao make sure that the gods are doing what they're supposed to? Did he just walk up to them and give them a slap on the wrist?

jagged apex
#

the time of troubles was the slap on the wrists

grim siren
#

Ao has been around almost as long as The Realms has been around in dnd.

Ao first appears in Shadowdale in 1989 and the gray box came out in '87

#

Ao, can damage Gods permanently, or demote them at will

jagged apex
#

he is the lord of realmspace and presumably is aware of all if not most things going on in the forgotten realms setting, though as the planes of existant are not restricted to any one setting he presumably is not able to know all of what the gods do, but is implied he knows at least how they are acting and conducting themselves as it relates with their duties in the forgotten realms setting

grim siren
#

Now if a God exists in many settings like Bahamut, he cannot kill such a god only sever their connection to Realmspace.

jagged apex
#

which is presumably why bahamut filled in for i believe it was tyr during the time of troubles?

rapid jetty
grim siren
#

Bahamut existed in the realms before the ToT

grim siren
rapid jetty
jagged apex
#

which, if he did not know the dead 3 took the tablets of fate, it might have been stored in some sort of extraplanar place, otherwise he probably was using it as an opportunity to try to get the gods to stop acting like such cosmic brats

grim siren
rapid jetty
#

Why'd he even let Jergal give his mantle away like that in the first place?

iron saffron
#

He got tired of his job.

grim siren
#

Ao Cares far less than you think. As long as the Balance is not disrupted he cares not

jagged apex
#

what matters to Ao is the gods doing their jobs and more so the balance of realmspace

#

things like the gods and them electing replacements or retiring, he could care less

#

the important part was that jergal found beings to play those roles he gave up out of his portfolio

grim siren
#

Also Jergal is totally a BBEG of the Realms holy crap Jergal is scary

jagged apex
#

eh, i don't feel he is BBEG, given he is not really malicious or evil, the most evil thing he did to my knowledge would probably indirectly being responsible for the rise and terror, even if they are rather pathetic by divine standards, and the terror and or chaos they caused to gods and mortals alike

#

though from what i can tell, without actually getting the 3rd party book, you may have a point if you are intentionally or not intentionally including the 3rd party book "Jergal: Lord of the End of Everything", which ties him into some obscure lore, but to my knowledge that is not considered canon to the version of him published by wizards of the coast

#

with the lawful neutral alignment and the way his personality is described by "Faith and Pantheons" according to the wiki, make me find it unlike for him to reasonably be in a BBEG role

#

such personality being described as "Although his nature was that he must be loyal to the office of death, he could subtly undermine the holder of that office if he or she was not true to the office's responsibilities."

#

so seems if anything, he is a good guy, given he even when undermining the god of death, if they are not doing their job properly, and even though he is not direct about it

jagged apex
rapid jetty
#

So I think that's why he's considered neutral

jagged apex
#

cosmically, death is neutral

#

at least to my knowledge in dnd

#

and to be fair, being scary does not equal bbeg, so you would definitely have to explain to my why he'd be a bbeg, cuz from what i am aware of him as a character, his canonical version in relstion to the published lore is not at all villanous, let alone bbeg

grim siren
#

Jergal has had a connection to a race known as the Spellweavers since at least 2010. They were Gifted with an unprecedented mastery of the Art, they built an empire that spanned the multiverse before meeting a tragic and almost instant end.

Their Obelisks allow them to alter time on a grand scale. And after their end this art of Time shattering Obelisks somehow passed to the Netherese, even though Vecna Erased the Spellweavers.

Well look there. Jergal was a Greater God of Netheril before its fall.

Jergal is an ancient deity, older than many of the greater gods of Faerûn. He even has a portal to the Negative Energy plane on his cloak.

Its not far of a jump that he willingly gave the dead three his power to remove threats. As he is much happier with the dead three's replacement and he hates them

#

The end goal of the spellweaver race after the fall of their empire was unknown to all but them. However, some sages believed that they still tried to reunite the planes together—an event of apocalyptic proportions that would kill all, including the gods themselves.

#

What is a better conduit then the long game with The Lord At The End Of Everything?

jagged apex
#

last i checked their goal was the elevate their whole race to godhood, with the obelisks being intended as a failsafe

rapid jetty
ionic rivet
jagged apex
#

and again far as i am aware that 3rd party book is not considered canon of published materials, and the title of lord at the end of everything could be viewed as do to his role at the time in the tsr days that it comes from to his role as a god of death

rapid jetty
#

But it's related to the convo so idk

rough fractal
grim siren
#

I am not referencing that thrid party book

grim siren
ionic rivet
rough fractal
iron saffron
rapid jetty
grim siren
#

Its its own expression of Canon and not beholden to anything.

jagged apex
grim siren
#

The best evil things have Good PR

jagged apex
#

soft canon meaning it is canon enough until contradicted by mainstream materials in this case the published sourcebooks for dnd 5e

grim siren
#

So Saith Ed, take as you will when asked

If there is one D&D Forgotten Realms villain most capable of “winning” (think Thanos in MCU), which D&D villain would that be?

There's so much Realmslore still unrevealed that would draw far different answers than I'm seeing here, and expect to see.*
If we're not leaving out deities, the answer is clearly Jergal, because he's already won (according to his lights), though few have noticed.

rapid jetty
grim siren
jagged apex
#

thanos in the mcu is drastically different than his source material counterpart

#

one can argue that mcu thanos was not even a villian in his story

grim siren
#

Thanos is merely listed as an example of an overarching villain who has good odds of completing their task. I am not here to talk semantics of Thanos' protrayal in different mediums.

rapid jetty
rough fractal
grim siren
#

Ed Said Jergal

jagged apex
#

like if there is anything that puts him in a villainous role, it seems to be hidden or left out of published materials, as saddly even the forgotten realms differs at times between ed's own version and the one published

rough fractal
#

I mean the big question for BBEG is "can they outsmart or beat Elminster." Szass Tam isn't even on my list for that

grim siren
#

You don't have to agree with me. Everything I have referenced comes from a novel or a source book that TSR and WOTC have published.

jagged apex
#

but given the mcu thanos was used as an example that to me does not truely make him villanous, just a villian so far as he and the heroes may oppose one another, as mcu thanos' goals, not the time displaced one, are much more altruistic and inteeded as a nesssary evil for the greater good of the universe

#

like if we are considering jergal as the bbeg of the realms, he very much does not seem at all to fit the bill based on what info in published materials i could find, like what is it he is wanting to do that is so evil, cuz he seems neutral or good from what i can gather if anything

#

like i just don't see the E in BBEG if we are looking at jergal as the one in that role, kind of important part of the acronym

grim siren
#

Okay, I feel like you are not reading that I am saying all my information has come from official sources, you specifically do not have debate me out of it. And I listed as a potential BBEG. Not the singular one.

jagged apex
#

ah

rapid jetty
jagged apex
#

yeah, my guess is that Ao, presuming he knew of the spellweavers and their plans, saw nothing wrong with it, which to be fair is reasonable given he created the gods that are specific to the realms to more or less help him delegate what he would otherwise have to do on his own

grim siren
#

True with Ao he does have weaknesses

jagged apex
#

and limits

grim siren
#

Given that overdeities became stronger when more deities were under their dominion, the outright decrease of gods would not be helpful to him. His punishment during the Time of Troubles might have played a part in the Torilian gods seeking to expand into the Outer Planes, and it was not uncommon (if incredibly risky) for gods that suffered under despotic overgods to simply abandon their area of control all together.

rapid jetty
#

Wait, are there other beings on the same level as Ao?

jagged apex
#

as the gods in dnd often are for all their power and otherworldly nature, are not that different from us mortals at least in some mental capacities such as personalities, so presumably keeping the balance of realmspace and doing every god's job himself would be too much, like we know from tharzidun that even gods and god like being have a breaking point and can become mad

grim siren
#

Yes. Ao's power is limited only to Realmspace

rapid jetty
#

But do we know who they are?

jagged apex
#

where as gods, despite being dependent on worship and other acts of veneration to survive, can exist on any setting where they have at least one devout enough follower

grim siren
#

Krynn (Dragonlance) has one in the High God, and also anthropomorphizes the Chaos from which the High God came

jagged apex
#

most notable ones seem to be in other settings that happen to technically be within realmspace

grim siren
#

The Lady of Pain certainly exhibts the power of an Overgod

jagged apex
#

yeah, one could view her as the overgod/overpower of the central hub of the multiverse, sigil

rapid jetty
#

I don't really get what is and isn't important enough for Ao to intervene in. I get that he doesn't care for a lot of things, but he got upset over some tablets that didn't even have much power.

grim siren
#

The tablets defined the roles of the gods.

#

If I hand wrote the consitution of a country I would be big upsetti if Nic Cage showed up and stole it.

jagged apex
#

and also was a sort of cosmic stabilizer for the cosmos as it pertains to realmspace, things like keeping abeir and toril out of phase with one another and not colliding into one another

rapid jetty
jagged apex
#

the tablets of fate were stolen by the dead 3 out of a misconception that since it contained a record of the gods and their portfolios, that they could use it to make themselves more powerful, they of course were wrong

rapid jetty
jagged apex
#

plus they almost got caught near instantly

#

hence why they hid it

jagged apex
#

they were more so trying to just gain more power, they couldn't have overpowered Ao even if their plan had worked how they thought it would

rapid jetty
#

Mainly when it comes to aberrations

jagged apex
#

cuz in order to do anything against Ao's will they obviously would need to do so in realmspace, thus Ao automatically would out power them innately, he is basically a part of realmspace, he to my knowledge does not exist out in some divine realm on another plane of existence like the more typical gods

jagged apex
#

the risk was to the cosmos of realmspace, Ao himself would have been unphased if he had let thing play out, but he unlike the gods does his job as he is suppose to