#dnd-lore

1 messages · Page 32 of 1

feral lintel
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There havent been record of any twin dragons, right?

magic jackal
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Bahamut and Tiamat

iron saffron
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Since 1E AD&D chromatic and metallic (and later lung and gem) dragons are unique in look by type. There's no "universal" D&D dragon look.

feral lintel
white ravine
feral lintel
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They were ceated same time

grand jolt
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but it's funny! Just look at their impressive chins, and their fantastical beards!

But i do understand that they probably don't experience things like being inbred, but it's fun to imagen and speculate.

jagged apex
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to my knowledge the closest thing dnd blue dragons have to royalty is the role of suserin, which i may be misspelling, otherwise is largely families and clans

grand jolt
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eh, I'm probably just getting lore of dnd and pathfinder mixed up. But still blue dragons do be funny politicians tho. Blue dragon supremacy!

jagged apex
grand jolt
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Cool!, I'll take a look.

jagged apex
grand jolt
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Also I didn't think people would get so serious about me calling the blue dragons looking inbred.....

jagged apex
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else i'd give AJ Pickett's lore video on blue dragons a look, though just know it is technically a 3 year old so some info might be outdated or not accounted for

magic jackal
fresh idol
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What is the coolest lore someone can think of.

jagged apex
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far as i know blue dragons will not knowingly breed with a family member nor a clan member

magic jackal
grand jolt
grand jolt
white ravine
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Or the blood war...

fresh idol
fresh idol
grand jolt
fresh idol
jagged apex
feral lintel
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Devils (law) vs Demons (chaos)

fresh idol
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Oh yeah, because demons are just chaotic evil, they just want to kill.

jagged apex
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the blood war mainly serves to keep the demons as and the abyss as contained as possible

feral lintel
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and yeah, it acts as a distraction to the demons

fresh idol
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And then devils are lawful evil.

white ravine
# fresh idol And that guy, who is he?

The Slaadi Lord of Death. He's a winged skeleton of a slaad that rides a dragon and bears a scythe. Legend says that he was born at the end of time and he's been experiencing all of reality backwards since, dying at the beginning of the universe.

jagged apex
fresh idol
white ravine
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Hes one of my favorite BBEGs in all of DND

fresh idol
white ravine
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The demons exist in a world where they are constantly under assault by the rest of reality. If they don't fight, they will be exterminated.

jagged apex
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save meaning as in being the exception

fresh idol
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Just hatred?

feral lintel
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The abyss is literally just a ever changing hell of a place

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always new dangers, formed by the emotions of those in it

fresh idol
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I see, that’s actually cool.

feral lintel
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like the Warp from 40K, i think

jagged apex
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in 5e Ygorl clocks in at a respectable cr 23, and literally did not get any new artwork because canonically, none of the guys mordenkainen sent to record his appearance ever came back quote "After the fifth artist dispatched to record Ygorl ’s appearance failed to return, I let the matter rest."

white ravine
feral lintel
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that too

white ravine
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What would an army of serial killers and psychopaths do when you point a firing line at them?

feral lintel
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so it is just the Warp

white ravine
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They'd run at it and hope someone kills them.

fresh idol
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But can a demon be capable of being a genuine good “person” ?

jagged apex
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plus the abyss was not part of the original intended set up for the cosmos, it was created via outside influence and is effectively like a planar cancer, that is semi-sentient

fresh idol
feral lintel
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I have a Gnoll whos not evil, he just kills it on his guitar

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as an NPC

fresh idol
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Lmfao.

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What’s the name?

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I wanna know.

feral lintel
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Scurv

fresh idol
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Sick.

feral lintel
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but thats for another channel

fresh idol
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I love the idea of evil things turning good against their nature.

jagged apex
feral lintel
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There is a Devil in Descent to Avernus who actually did that, but it was because of head trauma

jagged apex
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there is even an alu demon i believe, or otherwise some other kind of female fiend that became good

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forget their name

feral lintel
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Alu?

white ravine
jagged apex
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Alu-fiend that is what they were called

feral lintel
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Ah

jagged apex
feral lintel
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seperate question, how well known is the sword of Kas in game?

fresh idol
white ravine
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Since an outsider (any non-mortal being of that caliber) is made from soulstuff and the nature of their plane, when they shift alignments they are fundamentally 'wrong' by staying in said plane

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If a chaotic evil demon turned lawful good, that's not much of a demon anymore is it?

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As a result, they can physically change to fit their new position. Falling angels is a very good example.

feral lintel
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True. The Devil i mentioned earlier didn't feel too good in Avernus

white ravine
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Graz'zt, a demon lord, also is very eloquent and put together for a demon. Guess what, rumor says he was once a lawful evil devil that turned to chaos.

feral lintel
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But seperate discussion for my campaign, how well Known is the Sword of Kas in the DnD universe?

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Cuz one of my PCs wants to whoop Arkhan's donkey

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For killing an NPC from her backstory

jagged apex
feral lintel
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Ok

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So I can give her that information then.

jagged apex
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though that is my own understanding, not a hard fact

white ravine
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Give the origin story if nothing else

jagged apex
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like the story of it's history is likely known, but certain details like how it was vecna who created the sword for kas is likely not one they will know

feral lintel
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I think almost everyone knows Vecna tho

jagged apex
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the basics of the lore/story of the item

feral lintel
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ok

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Just wanted to send her artificer on a mcguffin quest

jagged apex
feral lintel
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ah ic

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ok, ill try add in some lore bits throughout the campaign then

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fun fun

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thanks

jagged apex
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plus keep in mind it is techncially a sentient magical item with it's own personality and motives

feral lintel
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Oh, that can also work. ANd from what I can see, it is obssessed with destroying the Hand and Eye of Vecna... yes, that should work

jagged apex
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pretty much anything to do with vecna, his worshipers, his work, or his plans, the sword is obsessed with destroying/opposing

feral lintel
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Ok, so it would also be fine with killing Arkhan

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good to know. I've got a lot of work ahead of me... this is exciting

jagged apex
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it wouldn't care, it would wanna just chop the hand of vecna into itty bitty bits, which would kill him do to the effects of the hand

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so it would agree if for nothing else that reason

feral lintel
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Destroying the Sword requires both eyes and hand though

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and the wish spell is a contest against the swords CHA

jagged apex
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so? from my understanding destroying the sword was never a part of the intended plan

feral lintel
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indeed

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oh, sorry i mistook "killing him" as in killing the sword for some reason

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not Arkhan

jagged apex
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yeah once you attune to the hand or the eye, removing it kills you, then vecna gets all your secrets, least that is my understanding, not sure the vecna getting the secrets part is actually mentioned in the 5e lore directly, but historically from my understanding that is part of why he will send his eye and hand out into the world/prime material plane

feral lintel
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ah, ic

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how would Tiamat react to Arkhan dying that way though?

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or to the whole plan in general

jagged apex
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god of evil secrets, loves secrets, who'd a thunk

feral lintel
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Arkhan is a champion to Tiamat after all

jagged apex
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honestly, she may not care much about her, she is all about herself, but she might value him slightly more than her typical worshiper given how genuinely and zealotly devoted he is to serving and freeing her

feral lintel
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ah, so maybe she would rather much be freed first then

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ok, thank you

jagged apex
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yeah, she is always selfserving first and foremost, anything else is usually secondary at best

feral lintel
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ic ic. thanks so much man

jagged apex
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np

feral lintel
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overall character arc plan completed

jagged apex
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just know this is only based on my own understanding and knowledge and i am not too familiar with Arkhan's character and have not gotten the chance to play decent into avernus so i am not aware of any interactions the two may have had and i could be proven wrong since it is someone else's character that has been used from what i am told across multiple settings

feral lintel
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Ah ic

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From what I've read, he's mostly just a get out of jail free card for Tiamat

jagged apex
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but i do bing watch a lot of lore videos by the likes of AJ Pickett and other similar dnd lore youtubers

feral lintel
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And uses him to her full advantage

jagged apex
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he is basically her most valuable pawn one could argue

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mainly cuz he is so devoted she does not have to worry about being betrayed, unlike anyone else in the hells she potentially interacts with

feral lintel
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that is also true, so maybe she would give average effort to keep him alive

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He hasnt had luck so far

jagged apex
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but if it comes down to any of her power or even her life, well, sucks to be arkhan 😛

feral lintel
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Ok, ic

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so apparently she just cant enter the material realm, so she can wander around Avernus a bit

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Thinking of having her as a contender for when Zariel is redeemed or killed

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So just wanted to make sure everything is all lore acturate

jagged apex
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that is indeed one of the options, but do to her duties she would send someone to it on her behalf, she herself does not want to deal with running avernus, hence why in recent years she turned it down when asmodeus offered it to her

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but yeah canonically she is one of the contenders offered up in the book

feral lintel
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Ah, ok, so technically, Arkhan would rule it then. OK, makes sense for her.

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Thank you, youre the GOAT

jagged apex
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or just someone else on her behalf, i believe it leaves it vauge, but i think if he is still alive he'd be likely the one she would have do that

feral lintel
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👍

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thanks

jagged apex
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np

feral lintel
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I think i got everything i need.

jagged apex
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(though do remember, there is also the option for one of the party members to take it and thus get their own unique archdevil form) :3

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honestly all the options the book offers are fun for their own reasons

feral lintel
jagged apex
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lol

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at least they don't gotta be worrying about dying on the adventure and having to start as a lemure

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cuz from what i am aware if you die in there as a living mortal, your soul automatically is claimed there, and i think at least historically is the case with the other outer planes too

feral lintel
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oh, i thought that was just with hellfire weapons

jagged apex
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no, to my knowledge it is those from the prime material plane that travel to the plane with their actual physical bodies

feral lintel
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ah

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ok, so dying is not an option there

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they should have really said that in the book...

jagged apex
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well it is, just not one they can really come back from

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remember in dnd death is not the end of a character's story nessissarily

feral lintel
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huh. I should probably let Lulu tell tham that at least.

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oh i know, just probably thinking that the characters would much rather stay alive if they knew this

jagged apex
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yeah, could include it in what ever moment their memory is jogged a little or even allow if they see something to make them think about the possibility, a good enough religion check

feral lintel
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ic ic. Lulu ight remember now though, she has almost all of her memories now (Shes the hollyphaunt guide adn walking plot device)

jagged apex
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one think i kind of like about the adventure is that if you stay in hell long enough you could start transforming into a devil, don't believe is said what kind, so could depend on what the dm feels is fitting

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though probably not one of the high ranking ones nessissarily i'd imagine

feral lintel
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Oh, im just running the alignment change rules right now

jagged apex
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well just know it is still fluid, but if they do go full devil it will be a lot harder to act against those lawful evil tendencies

feral lintel
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that is true

jagged apex
feral lintel
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im mostly doing it on the more weak willed characters though, with their consent

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i meant running it in my current capaign

jagged apex
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yeah, good dm should always make sure the players are ok with what is being done, just to my knowledge is the default lore and presumed way things are in the plane in that adventure

feral lintel
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that my policies on it yeah. My sorceror is loving it though

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he was already morally gray, so why not?

jagged apex
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might become a greyish red :3

feral lintel
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slaad? 👀

jagged apex
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nah, was a bad joke

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morally grey and many lawful evil devils are shades of red more often than not

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that and the time by me probably means i should go to sleep, glad i could help

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though i do recall hearing or reading something somewhere about a slaad who partakes in the blood war cuz he like eating devils, for what that is worth

feral lintel
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actually, said sorceror got turned into a dragonborn and is now pulling a lizardfolk and eatig everything he sees

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and yeah, thanks for the help! much appreciated

jagged apex
feral lintel
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he drank Tiamat blood

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he was already a draconic bloodline sor, so i just turned him into a dragonborn

jagged apex
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ok, either way that is confusing to me, and that is saying a lot cuz from what i am aware tiamat eats some of her own children in somecases if they are born with multiple heads to preserve her unique appearance

feral lintel
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ah, makes sense

jagged apex
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anyways is late by me so i am gunna hop off and go to sleep, see you later, probably

feral lintel
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aight. thanks for the help!

jagged apex
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np

feral lintel
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nice talking to ya

static zealot
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Where does an oni come from?

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Like what plane of existence

sharp owl
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The material plane, they're giant-kin

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Specifically according to giant myth (which may be a true account), Annam gathered up the fragments of the First World and shaped them into the worlds of the material realm and populated them with giants

storm dagger
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They are stated as being probably related to ogres but are more like fiends now

sharp owl
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There's no mention of them being like fiends. Maybe you're misconstruing this bit:

Oni look like demonic ogres with blue or green skin, dark hair, and a pair of short ivory horns protruding from their foreheads
That's just describing their appearance. However they are giant kin distantly related to ogres

jagged apex
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in the case of the ones from kara-tur the origin is a mystery but there are a few in universe theories

mystic forum
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I wish to read the Nether Scrolls that I may understand the magic system of D&D

oblique sonnet
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What exactly is a war forge? Like are they sentient?

modest badger
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They are fully sentient humanoids with souls, but are made from wood and metals rather than flesh and bone

oblique sonnet
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Yeah but- how? How’re they made from metal and wood? Do they get birthed?

sharp owl
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They're created using Eldritch Engines developed by House Cannith

modest badger
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Do you have access to the warforged race on D&Dbeyond or elsewhere? Their entry has a lot of information that might cover some of these questions, such as this:

Living Steel and Stone. Warforged are formed from a blend of organic and inorganic materials. Root-like cords infused with alchemical fluids serve as their muscles, wrapped around a framework of steel, darkwood, or stone. Armored plates form a protective outer shell and reinforce joints. Warforged share a common facial design, with a hinged jaw and crystal eyes embedded beneath a reinforced brow ridge. Beyond these common elements of warforged design, the precise materials and build of a warforged vary based on the purpose for which it was designed.

Although they were manufactured, warforged are living humanoids. Resting, healing magic, and the Medicine skill all provide the same benefits to warforged that they do to other humanoids.

sharp owl
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One of the Dragonmarked houses, House Cannith, began making increasingly advanced constructs for use in the Last War. Eventually, some threshold of advancement was crossed and instead of constructs, they were full humanoids

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The creation of more warforged has been outlawed and supposedly all of the eldritch engines that make them, called Creation Forges, destroyed

jagged apex
# oblique sonnet Yeah but- how? How’re they made from metal and wood? Do they get birthed?

according monster manual 4th addition they were said in regards to such "Warforged are sexless and cannot reproduce. They
are created in magical factories called creation forges and given sentience by means of an elaborate ritual." this is presumably ment to be for outside of eberron if you were wanting to use the warforged back then, which to my knowledge is the only non eberron specific lore given for their origin in any edition

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otherwise especially in 5e their creation is do to a powerful magical item that was mentioned above known as creation forges, if memory serves, on the world of eberron there is still one that was not destroyed hidden somewhere out in the moarnlands, but i could be wrong about that

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basically the main difference between a warforged and your typical construct is the warforged are given their own souls and with it free will, this is a trait their predecessors to my knowledge lacked

jagged apex
unkempt merlin
sharp owl
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Warforged do not exist in the lore of any setting other than Eberron

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Also it's not known if Warforged are given souls or souls are an emergent property of their creation. Heck, them empirically having souls is non-diegetic knowledge and is something actively debated in Eberron

jagged apex
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ah, my mistake

snow laurel
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Are gnomes no longer considered to come from the feywild in 5e? That was their lore in 4e, but I don't know if it's been explicitly retconned or not

unkempt merlin
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They still have connections to the feywild

jagged apex
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no mention of fey from what i could find in the current 5e lore for gnomes, at least from things like the player race info and gnome related creatures, and only one subrace of gnome so far has gotten revamped/updated lore, that being the deep gnomes

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they they have traits and personality norms that are very fey esc

jagged apex
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granted there could be something i am not aware of or simply missed

grim siren
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There was a Dragon magazine article back in fourth edition days explained warforged in the forgotten realms. Let me see if I can find it

jagged apex
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all i know is depending on the continuity in that regard 1, maybe 2 warforged have managed to somehow make their way from eberron to toril

snow laurel
jagged apex
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neat

grim siren
jagged apex
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yeah he is one of the two i am aware of, the other being a guy who is a warlock of hadar that appeared in the game "Idle Champions of the Forgotten Realms"

grim siren
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Warden is the Warlock of Hadar

jagged apex
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huh, could have sworn they were separate individuals, learn something new every day i guess

grim siren
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Like halflings in FR are also called The Hin.

magic jackal
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Calling Warforged Automatons in Eberron is explicitly derogatory and also wrong on a meta-textual level.

jagged apex
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personally i find nothing wrong with the name warforged, in or out of universe

magic jackal
jagged apex
magic jackal
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Somehow I don't think the general race name should be the slur they're given by prejudiced individuals in-universe, but that's just me.

jagged apex
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that and my fondness of the race tends to be why i get annoyed at the misconception of just being the pc version of a robot, that title rightly belongs to the autognomes if anyone

modest badger
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What weird crossover characters/creatures do you know of in the lore?
I love that Aslan is technically in D&D as Nobanion

Besparr, Hlyyaak, and the two “Supreme Beasts,” Aslan and Lurue (sometimes called Silverymoon) are my own inventions. The last two are the Lion and Unicorn of nursery-rhyme fame. Details of Aslan can be gleaned from C.S. Lewis’ Narnia series, and those of the unicorn can be found in Elizabeth Goudge’s The Little White Horse.
Dragon Magazine 54, "Down-to-Earth Divinity", 1981

Nobanion, also known as Lord of the Guthmere Woods and the King of the Beasts, is typically depicted as powerful lion or a majestic lammasu. Legends claim that his jaws, once clamped shut, cannot be opened by any force in the mortal world. Ancient texts also refer to him us the Lion King or Aslan. Some legends claim Nobanion entered the Realms through one of many magical pools in the Weathercote Woods, each of which acts as a gate to another world.
-Polyhedron Magazine 115, "Forgotten Deities: Beast Cults: The Lion and the Unicorn", 1996
'weathercote', get it, because of the wardrobe >.>

magic jackal
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I'm not sure if he technically counts as crossover tho

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But he did "cross over" from an alternate material plane to Toril and he's just doing his thing

iron saffron
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He first appeared in 1E Curse of the Azure Bonds so he's over 150 years old.

magic jackal
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Love that guy, and love how he ended up in ||ToA||

modest badger
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All I know of Dragonbait is that he chucks halflings at things. (From one of the AD&D comics)

iron saffron
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He communicates by smell if I recall correctly.

flat blade
magic jackal
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The horrible goose is actually a dragon and has echoes across the multiverse, that's my headcanon. 😁

flat blade
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No need for headcanon!
You get a little jerk goose as a companion/follower

rough fractal
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Hi folks! So, I run a lot of games in the Forgotten Realms in 5th edition, and because of that the stretch between 1480-1510 has gotten incredibly crowded. I'm considering jumping way back to a previous era (like Spellplague or Time of Troubles) but I know those time periods don't match the rulesets for 5th edition. People didn't heal overnight, spells worked very differently, etc. I like previous editions, but I think it'll be a hard sell for my players. Any suggestions?

iron saffron
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You don't need to match the edition rules with the era. You can use the DMG option rules for healing (this bleeding into #dm-discussion territory)

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Gameplay mechanics =/= narrative

modest badger
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I think minor mechanics like resting and such won't affect lore, but if running modules from that edition, keep in mind the game design and challenge of those modules might be shaped around some of those mechanics.
I think some of the trickier things for lore when jumping back is how some narrative might focus on gods that work differently in an older edition to 5e (such as alignment and domain restrictions), or if they rely on lore that has specifically been retconned.

Hard to think of any off the top of my head, but for example when running 1e Greyhawk in 5e things I had to keep in mind is: Drow are well known now and not the surprise mystery enemy they were in 1e, lolth is a demon queen not an elven goddess, there is a greater emphasis on humanocentricity and more, well, very outdated takes on ethnicity, fantasy racism and sexism. So on.

rough fractal
iron saffron
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5E gameplay mechanics will just make it easier your PCs to survive. Doesn't affect lore unless they're going up against gods (because 5E aspects are weaker than 3.5E aspects/avatars).

modest badger
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I guess it depends on your focus. Because if running an older module there are always things you need to convert and consider game design wise. But that is indeed Dm-discussion or maybe legacy discussion?

When making homebrew but in an earlier time I guess the lore issues you might need to consider are things like- Are dragonborn playable and around and so on.

iron saffron
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Oh yeah, dragonborn weren't a thing pre-4E era on Toril because they were still on Abeir.

modest badger
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Like which lore are you considered about and what can you just change without really upsetting the overall history, and what might you need to consider telling players 'So this is a houserule I'll need to give to ensure we keep the feel of this era' (like no Dragonborn)

iron saffron
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BTW, how is "1480-1510 has gotten incredibly crowded"? I think the current 5E campaign books are set around 1495 DR-ish.

magic jackal
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By a lot of games are you referring to the series of 5e Adventures and how they connect to oen another @rough fractal ?

rough fractal
rough fractal
iron saffron
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If anything, magic was more powerful back in 2E/3E era

rough fractal
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Alignment is a consideration too, but even in 5e and late 1400s I run Alignment heavy games so that's no big change

iron saffron
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I don't see why sub-classes wouldn't work? They're just replacing 3.5E prestigae classes

modest badger
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And 2e kits

iron saffron
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You're the DM so you can handwave gameplay mechanics to fit the lore.

rough fractal
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Maybe I'm just thinking on my 1e experience. I don't know what kits are

modest badger
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Like I've had some issue with 1e modules and occaisonally having to spice up what i want an M.U to be (Wizard, sorcerer, warlock?) and play with things like that, but it's not been too bad.

iron saffron
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The only thing I would see that would affect lore would be certain playable races like goliath and dragonborn not existing back then.

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But then again 3.5E offered the ability to play non-standard PC races with monsters' Level Adjustment (which with 5E milestone makes it more difficult to convert over to).

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But hey, you're the DM and it's your table. You control the lore at your table and you can handwave away such things as dragonborns and goliaths not existing in the 3.5E era.

modest badger
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When I first started running my 1e Greyhawk based game in 5e I banned any non-PHB race and also drow, tiefling and dragonborn to keep the 'vibes'. Now though I've introduced golaith and dragonborn and such in- Lore wise they can fit, but edtion wise it was just that the sources I was using were outdated. (Later greyhawk sources do in fact have golaith and dragonborn in them, although do need to homebrew the lore for where they come from).

Again I really only see this as a bigger issue for converting modules. Less so for a homebrew campaign.

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I think this would be clearer as a lore topic if we actually knew which lore was the issue. Like what lore was introduced much later and still works, but doesn't fit the 'vibes', and what things lore wise wouldn't exist yet but are part of 5e's expectations (dragonborn being an example).

rough fractal
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I mean for example, Sorcerer just wasn't a thing. A Magic User had to have a spellbook and prep and memorize spells because that's how magic worked. Metamagic wasn't even a conceived possibility

modest badger
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But that's mechanics rather than lore. There are 1e wizards that are now canonically sorcerers.

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Like the Simbul. In 2e she's a Wizard 30/Fighter 6. In 3.5 she's a Sorcerer 20/ Archmage 2/ Wizard 10.

iron saffron
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Sorcerers were a thing in 3E

modest badger
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And this is a 'lore' retcon in a sense. She now always was a sorcerer.

iron saffron
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There's over 100 years difference between 3E and 5E eras

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Even within the same edition famous NPCs class/levels changed (I'm looking at you Drizzt!)

modest badger
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Sometimes things like this can have big lore ramifications (Like Sorcerers interact with Dark Sun a lot differently to Wizards. Wizards at least have to chose to learn and do arcane magic and thus drain the planet. People being born with the ability to just do that without training changes things- but 4e Dark Sun allowed sorcerers and tried to address that I believe)

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In FR it's not really a big lore ramification if some MU are sorcerers instead of wizards.

iron saffron
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There weren't warlocks in 2E, correct?

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They were introduced in a 3E supplement?

modest badger
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No and 3.5 warlocks were pretty different to 5e warlocks lore wise as well.

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Least, 3.5 really only had fiend warlocks.

#

But again this doesn't really change things if you allow fey warlocks, or chaotic neutral paladins or so on in your 5e games set in older editions. Lore changes are kind of expected to be retroactive.

iron saffron
#

Lore-wise some classes disappeared over the editions. No psionist classes in 5E but psionics existed since 1E (as an optional character power) and later were classes in 2E.

modest badger
#

Like there's not really a lore explanation saying 'And now druids can be any alignment!' or 'And suddenly fey warlocks existed'. They're expected to have always been a thing 'in universe', it's just you won't see any in older modules and books because meta wise they didn't exist yet.

rough fractal
modest badger
#

Although some editons and settings did try to address mechanics in universe with lore. Like n Greyhawk from 1e to 2e 'Fate of istus' addressed why classes changed and why some disappeared (Because the goddess of fate decided they sucked apparently)

#

In most cases Lore retcons are well, retcons.

#

Like it's not that in universe Elves went from having spirits in AD&D, to having souls like everyone else, then suddenly were eladrin and sylvan, and suddenly back to being high elf and wood elf, and so on. These changes are expected to be considered as 'always true'. Like in 4e it'd be expected to accept that 'elves were always eladrin and sylvan, what are you talking about?' and so on.

#

Some mechanics and changes between editions are addressed in universe (Spellplague, time of troubles, Vecna crashing the universe, Istus being weird), but most are just 'this is how it always was now'.

iron saffron
#

The various cataclysms between editions like Tablet of Fate, Second Sundering, etc. were narrative reasons why the edition changes happened, especially the magic systems.

rough fractal
modest badger
#

I mean. Did you really expect there to be an in universe explanation for every lore retcon and mechanic change?

iron saffron
#

They were D&D's version of DC Comics' soft reboots.

modest badger
#

I think that'd be even weirder.
"Infravision isn't a thing anymore because gods found it annoying, everyone has dark vision instead now."

#

"The gods turned back time to rewrite the origin of X race, now it was always that way but only from 1480 DR onwards, before then it somehow wasn't rewritten into history"

iron saffron
#

Ultravision was a thing back in 1E. I think it was something akin to darkvision?

modest badger
#

"Suddenly all dragonborn lost their breasts. Gods admit 'Yeah, they didn't make much sense, our bad'"
Sometimes you just gotta let lore be a retcon rather than an in universe change that everyone is aware of.

#

"Avariel keep poofing in and out of existence. Scholars baffled."

#

"Abyssal tiefling unsure if allowed to exist."

fallow leaf
#

Scholars in eberron wondering who the hell that asmodeus guy was and where he went

modest badger
#

"Spellcasters change the school of cure wounds yet again. No word from mystra."

jagged apex
#

the way i like to think of it, is each edition jumps across to that point onward after the events of that edition changing cataclysmic events that is like a separate timeline that can range in how different or similar to what came before they are, as each edition is as they have said a while back and are their own continuities

#

like what ever the current edition is would be the prime timeline if you were to go with my analogy and each time one of those edition changing events happens, it basically jumps to a new one

shadow haven
#

Question in the lore, is there anyone who bears a somewhat resemblance to doomslayer in that they lost everything and dove head first into the 9 hepls with the intention of wiping out every last fiend?

fallow leaf
#

not that i can name off the top of my head no

#

very specific question

#

one thing i noticed is that 5e spelljammer doesnt mention historical gods at all
like, in the passage of Thebystys, it just kinda states its founded by a god of learning
when in 2e, it was just said to be the divine realm of thoth

#

i just find it weird since egyptian, celtic, etc. gods are in the phb but wotc seems too scared to mention them anymore

#

the book mentions extremely obscure gods anyway like Ilsensine and Sheela Peryroyl

iron saffron
#

Why would 5E Spelljammer mention deities?

fallow leaf
#

meant to say planescape

#

typo

iron saffron
#

I suspected as much.

Well, gods can't have a presence in Sigil and I guess the "generic" D&D gods are more setting agnostic.

jagged apex
#

unless you count their followers, their worshipers can go in, but not the gods themselves nor their avatars

#

cuz some people use presence to refer to influence

hazy fox
#

So turns out that Planescape has factions.
Not sure if Torment explored them since it’s first time I heard of it.
Then again, only things I know about Planescape is from Torment and maybe a lore wiki.

#

So not sure how important or prominent they were.

calm crest
#

The factions are the main element of Sigil. They are featured in Torment—the game starts in the Dustmen’s hall.

hazy fox
#

Yeah, to be honest, most just remembered "amnesiac man relearning his past...plus angel, demon, Yakko Warner the talking skull, and Homer Simpsons the robot".

rough fractal
#

If one wanted to run a game during the Time of Troubles, what source would they need to gather what the gods were doing and where they were, along with how people, groups and organizations, and governments reacted?

iron saffron
#

Either read the novels or the FR wiki explaining the Time of Troubles.

rough fractal
#

There's no sourcebook for it?

iron saffron
#

Nope. It took place between 1E and 2E.

rough fractal
#

I thought it was during 1e or 2e

iron saffron
#

1357 DR – First edition’s “Grey Box” Forgotten Realms Boxed Set setting takes place.
1358 DR – Time of Troubles, when the gods lose immortality and walk the land.
1367 DR – Second Edition‘s FR boxed set takes place.

rough fractal
#

Dang. Okay, has anyone made a third party or homebrew sourcebook based on that time period? It's one of the most exciting events to occur in the Realms, I can't imagine I'm the first person to want a sourcebook to play in that

iron saffron
#

Essentially each of the FR cataclysms happen in between the editions. Like I had mentioned earlier, they were used as narrative means explain why the rules, especially the magic system, were being changed with incoming new edition.

rough fractal
#

Yeah, but incredible world changing narrative means to explane it

iron saffron
#

That's why you had to read the novels for the other cataclysms.

rough fractal
#

Like who wouldn't want to play through crazy stuff like gods becoming mortal and magic going wild over the material plane

rough fractal
iron saffron
rough fractal
#

Oh, I might take a look them

#

Then

modest badger
steady verge
#

whats the best source of information about Avernus and or Dis?

olive loom
#

Uhhh, descent has a bit I think… same with DMG

steady verge
#

writing a campaign in those settings so

olive loom
#

By descent I mean descent into avernus

#

Which, considering it takes place in avernus is probably your best bet

#

If you Google “dnd avernus” there’s probably some stuff you can find

#

Like lore blurbs or something

iron saffron
jagged apex
#

just got 5e planescape, and so glad we got 5e lore confirming stuff about other extra planar life that we had to just assume off past editions, also kind of retroactively makes adventures like decent into avernus all the more interesting

jagged apex
grim siren
jagged apex
#

neat

fresh idol
#

I would like to know Aarakocra lore, as this will be my first time playing as one.

#

Anybody have anything I should know? To be more immersed.

unkempt merlin
#

What's the setting?

fresh idol
#

Around Phandelver.

grim siren
errant owl
#

Where would Sea Giants fit in the Ordning (The ranking of giant society, positioning the various kinds of Giants as beneath Storm Giants, and the rankings of Giants within the kinds of Giants)

Would they be equivalent to Storm Giants, due to being nomadic aquatic cousins to them? Just beneath them?

jagged apex
#

and from what i can find the Zarkharan giants are not related to Annam and likely do not acknowledge him or the other giant gods of the ordning and thus their not abide by the ordning and it's structure

#

to reference "BIGBY PRESENTS: GLORY OF THE GIANTS" they since they have no connection to the ordning would fall under "rejecting the ordning", so effectively they are viewed in the ordning as low and if not lower than ettin and giant kin

jagged apex
errant owl
jagged apex
jagged apex
# errant owl Thank you. FYI, I wasn't talking about the Zarkharan Reef Giants. I was more th...

was able to find them by searching that source you just cited, and yeah, literally says nothing in relation to the ordning, but seems much like the reef giants they would fall under those that reject the orderning given this tail bit of info at the end of the part describing their society "Merfolk and aquatic storm giants view ocean giants as plunderers of the sea’s wealth, so relations between them are strained at best."

#

so if any place it would heavily come down to how you interpret that tiny bit of info that actually references the rest of giant kind

#

yeah, not sure why it is not listed on the forgotten realms wiki at all, pretty much every other giant is

maiden mortar
#

Who is the strongest Swordsman in D&D, among all settings?

jagged apex
#

no idea, not even sure is a thing that is stated anywhere, but i'd imagine the better question who is the greatest swordsman in the dnd muliverse

iron saffron
#

Define "strongest."

jagged apex
#

as if just strength, odds are probably one of the gods

maiden mortar
maiden mortar
grim siren
#

The most syllables of royalty?

maiden mortar
jagged apex
#

like i imaigne a god with a preference for swords and swordsmanship could have a sword of similar bonkers power

maiden mortar
#

Yeah but if you're already a god, being so skilled you can cut a god is to be expected

jagged apex
#

my guess is such a person would likely be either a bladesinger or a swordmage since they combine skilled swordsmanship with magic, meaning they are equal if not better of any normal swordsman

#

if memory serves driz'zt for context is known to be within the top 10 deadliest swordsmen on toril if i am remembering correctly

#

so while he is definitely not someone to take lightly, probably save to rule him out

grim siren
#

There is a strong case for King Gareth Dragonsbane of The Bloodstone Lands. Man defeated a sauron style lich lord, then Defeated an aspect of tiamat, and then marched into the Abyss to slay Orcus in like a 2 year time span. Granted he had help from a cleric, wizard, ranger, and monk. But even still it puts him as a very talented swordsman.

maiden mortar
#

Impressive

jagged apex
grim siren
#

And granted. We are just talking Realms when there are other swords men in other settings. Though I can't help there.

jagged apex
#

odds are there likely is no such answer

#

since some settings, like eberron are selfcontained and thus would never had any reasonable chance really to compare skills with swordsmen of other worlds

#

honestly, the question could make a massive series of novels or adventures pretty easily

maiden mortar
jagged apex
#

and even then, that would just the swordsmen and deeds that we know of

#

and even though one could argue it's kind of cheating, i'd imagine the lord of blades would be a strong contender for the eberron setting's greatest

#

if i had to guess, in the entire multiverse might be the Kolyaruts, at least if only disqualifying gods, and at least in the 5e continuity, cuz despite wielding 4 swords described as quote "blades with deadly efficiency, allowing them to defend themselves on their excursions and slice through any who obscure the truth." and are still set up to primarily be non lethal much like the 5e marut, and if those blades are anywhere near as sharp as they are described, it takes much more skill to be non lethal with such blades than it would to be be lethal with them

#

and if so, it would likely be the most skilled among them

#

but at least that would give us a much more narrow answer than the pretty much non answer if just strictly mortals

#

though i could see Mariliths giving Kolyaruts a run for their money, as they not only weild more blades but are described with similarly high levels of skill with them in combat

jagged apex
iron saffron
#

Asking who the "best swordsman" is essentially looking up a NPC who has the highest level in a martial class and that's dependant on the edition since some edition have level caps and others don't.

jagged apex
#

and even then, they could look like an amuture when compared to say a seasoned warrior marilith in the blood war

iron saffron
#

3.5E monsters can have class levels remember.

jagged apex
#

who will likely have multiple lifetimes work of training and skill over that person

jagged apex
#

again, i mention the existence of things that allow one to cleave even abstract concepts, with like a physical strike

iron saffron
#

5E monsters don't have classes. They moved away from that for ease of use.

jagged apex
#

like more often than not i have seen great warriors talked about in relation to having a powerful magical sword or the like

iron saffron
#

Anway, this is gameplay mechanics rather than lore.

jagged apex
#

and even then, some creatures in 5e technically do have class levels or at least in the case of casters use specific class spell lists

iron saffron
#

Again, this isn't lore talk.

jagged apex
#

well last i checked nothing in the lore said they couldn't have class levels any more, they more or less imply such things still being a thing with some of the examples in planescape

maiden mortar
jagged apex
#

so far as i am aware it is still very much a thing in the lore

jagged apex
#

oh, just thought of another potential candidate, a chosen of tempus and gods similar to him, assuming he has any chosen

unkempt merlin
#

"Class levels" aren't a diegetic thing

jagged apex
#

honestly an intelligent artifact level sword that only allows a truly great swordsman to wield it, would probably make this question a lot easier to find an answer for or at least narrow it down, though to my knowledge no such item exists in published lore

eager bay
#

Would a time dragon be able to go back in time and cast 11th level spells?

#

They can go back 8,000 years

jagged apex
#

unclear, but they are not mortal and are not necessarily on the prime material plane, so at least far as i can tell from an in universe standpoint, could theoretically be possible, if they had been born before or around karsus' folly, assuming their innate magic was not effected in anyway from the near collapse of the weave, plus even if they could not be cast, a time dragon's hoard would be a reasonable place one could potentially find records of spells from past editions including epic magic, quote "Time dragons prize historical records, objects representative of lost cultures, and treasures from long-gone creators. They are fascinated by time-manipulation magic and forgotten knowledge. Those who stumble upon a time dragon’s hoard might find invaluable historical information from eras past." , but at least in the forgotten realms, the scriptures would be unintelligible if any adventurer were to get their hands on it and tried to cast it, not to mention all the other hurdles that exist in the lore that you'd have to go through to actually cast such spells supposedly

#

sounds like something that you would have to has a major writer for the published lore about or just have based on the dm's own logic of what ever table you are playing at

#

cuz they have not been featured for a long time, only recently returning in the 5e continuity

#

honestly it might even be less lore and more mechanics based and thus dependant on the edition you are using

jagged apex
eager bay
#

If used in the right way this could mess the entirety of Dnd lore, they could go back in time and destroy the comet, which lead to the Collapse of the dragon empire

#

They could change who received Toril and Abir

jagged apex
#

but it is also tricky business as messing with time is historically a cosmic offense to the point there are inevitables who were specifically designed to deal with those who mess with the natural flow and events of time

#

remember, good rule of thumb is "could =/= would"

#

but if you wanna do stuff like that in your games, nobody is gunna stop you

#

at least if using such a concept in an edition with out the corresponding inevitable built to deal with timeline shenanigans, such as current 5e

sharp owl
#

@eager bay What someone could do is rarely a topic of lore and more one of speculation for #dnd-discussion

eager bay
#

Following the casting of Karsussus Folly

sharp owl
#

Yes, as I said, speculative questions on what could happen are not really lore questions

#

especially questions involving time travel

#

This channel is for discussing what the published lore across various sources actually says

#

What someone could do is entirely down to the DM

#

There's nothing in the lore about someone travelling back from after such a drastic change to the weave to before and exploiting the changes

#

(at least not insofar as I've found)

#

The closest we've had is suggestions on how you could use time travel in some adventures

#

But as far as I know, no canonical instances of time travel used for the specific purpose you've mentioned

grim siren
#

Time travel was strictly regulated by deities of the Realms. In the ages before and up to the fall of Netheril, Mystryl, the ancient goddess of time and magic, allowed no being to change the "stream of time". This law generally held, save for a single manner of her choosing, the time conduit, and was omniscient to any anomalous events that attempted to bypass her law.

Limitations on time travel continued under the goddess' successors, the two incarnations of Mystra, and her allies Oghma and Deneir, for at least the next 1700 years. Mystra lent certain powers to her daughters, the Seven Sisters, along with a select few of her Chosen and other great spellcasters, to empower them to help monitor chronomancers in Faerûn and prevent them from changing or creating any new timelines. It was unknown what role if any Chronos, the Orvan god of time, played in this role.

It was impossible for a being to travel in time on another plane of existence, specifically the Demiplane of Time, and then return to the crystal sphere of the planet Toril, or its predecessor Abeir-Toril.

Many sages believed that if an individual altered a crucial or decisive event, they could alter the "stream of time" and begin the formation of a new timeline, one that could be markedly different from the one they have known. Some believed that travel from one timeline to another was wholly impossible even for the gods, as they could not perceive of such different realities.

Some scholars believed there was some unperceived power greater than the gods that scrutinized these alternate timelines and made it their duty to ensure their wholeness.

Sources:

Steven E. Schend and Kevin Melka (1998). Cormanthyr: Empire of the Elves. (TSR, Inc), p. 4. ISBN 0-7069-0761-4.

Loren Coleman (1995). Chronomancer. Edited by Matt Forbeck. (TSR, Inc), p. 88. ISBN 978-0786903252.

John Terra (November 1997). Four from Cormyr. Edited by Kim Mohan. (TSR, Inc.), p. 79. ISBN 0-7869-0646-4.

#

Jorphdan also has a great video on Chronomancers in the realms I believe.

sharp owl
#

Yep

eager bay
#

Well official dnd book says screw that and says that a CR 26 Ancient Time Dragon can

sharp owl
#

None of that is lore

#

those are tools for DMs who don't feel beholden to lore as much as those that do

eager bay
#

They are canonical within the neutral outer realms

sharp owl
#

Again, mechanics are not lore

grim siren
#

There is also time travel in one published adventure in 5e but that is spoilers

eager bay
sharp owl
#

And that's also not lore as it's not actually part of the adventure, just a suggestion to the DM as to where they can take the adventure beyond it's conclusion

#

@eager bay I've pinged you in the appropriate channel to avoid spoilers

eager bay
#

okay

slim notch
#

Is there much 5e Tharizdun lore?

jagged apex
#

not really

#

at least to my knowledge, the bulk of his lore is from past editions

#

which kind of makes sense since he has been locked up since his creation do to the lore behind him

slim notch
#

Yeah I'm aware of all the stuff from 4e about him creating the Abyss

#

Really wondering if anything from 5e contradicts all that

jagged apex
#

he makes an appearance with the 5e greyhawk gods in the PHB, but is not really detailed, and the most recent mention of him i am aware of is from "BIGBY PRESENTS: GLORY OF THE GIANTS", but that is only if we presume it is him they are referring to when they mention the "Elder Elemental Eye", but could be iffy if that is him or not as from my understanding in multiple editions other entities have been known to operate under that name

slim notch
#

I think the "elder elemental eye" could also be about Zuggtmoy, but this is coming from skimming old modules years ago

jagged apex
#

only possible change i know might have occurred is the nature/location of his prison

jagged apex
#

though honestly since he is locked up and most of his worshipers are about as insane as he is, what little info we have is probably all you need, cuz at least according to the lore his followers kind of have to guess at his dogma

#

but kind of makes sense we have so little info on him even in a meta sense, since part of the lore to imprison him and prevent him from breaking out, from what i am aware the gods basically wiped all memory and record of him from mortal history, since, again at least from what i understand to be the case as far as i am aware, if he were to connect to a worshiper like via a prayer or something, he'd realize he truth of his prison and instantly break out, and then is gg for the whole multiverse, as his worshipers unlike other gods technically rather than playing have to basically tap into places that are more or less forgotten and in ruins most likely and are infused with traces of his power/influence

#

granted i could be wrong, but far as i can tell it kind of makes sense on multiple levels and i find that neat

jagged apex
slim notch
#

Good stuff, thanks

unkempt merlin
proud granite
#

So with the inclusion of DL, does that mean time travel is available to other parts of the Astral Sea, i.e. Krynn via Spelljammers?

modest badger
restive summit
#

How do you pronounce Sigil?

modest badger
#

Did a whole thing on Tharizdun up here, which also touches on EEG/EEE

iron saffron
sharp owl
#

It is

restive summit
#

Idk where else to ask it

sharp owl
#

The origin word (meaning a mark or symbol) is pronounced Sij el (or sij gel that rhymes with vigil)

modest badger
#

Zuggtmoy in ToEE was using him as a mask for her temple- but she wasn't the same, just parasiting off him. Lolth was originally planned to be doing something similar which is why she has 'keys' relating to the EEE in Q1 and D3. Eclavdra in the Giant and Drow series was a worshipper of the EEE.

sharp owl
#

However the creator of the setting, as well as many other people involved in its design in the latest editions, pronounce it Sig el (or Sig ul/siggle, that rhymes with wiggle)

#

How that translates to what people in-world would call the city, it tracks it'd follow what the creator says (which tracks with the only instance of a diegetic pronounciation from the Planescape Torment game) of Siggle

restive summit
#

Okay thank you

#

(As a DM I am going to make the decision to continue to pronounce it Sigil)

modest badger
#

Also, sorry, my bad- Yali-Ben-Ala's connection was misremembered and my own conjecture. The interview with Gygax names the Elder Eye as 'Vilp-akf 'cho Rentaq' (an alien god who tempts and corrupts Dorgha Torgu a Baklunish god into participating in the Twin Cataclysms and thus being stripped of his divinity by the other gods for interfering so in mortal affairs) and is described in Oerth Journal 12. Note though that that is essentially Gygax homebrew, as he had no control over D&D at that time.

storm dagger
storm dagger
steady verge
#

is there any info on naming giants or dragons?

#

like is there a particular pattern to follow?

#

really, really need to buy Bigby's

magic jackal
#

Well, the Giant Language is pretty much just a slightly altered version of Icelandic so you might use that as a base for Giants.

unkempt merlin
#

Fizbans has tables for dragon names

steady verge
#

Thank you to both of you

#

Writing a campaign where both of those are needed, a giant is the BBEG

slim notch
#

always throws me when I see "ordning" in here because it's just the normal word for "order" in Norwegian lol
You can probabaly just pull names from sagas and things like that

tardy wasp
#

How exactly do divine planar shenanigans work in the multiverse? Why is Pelor bound to Greyhawk, and Selune to Toril, but Sehanine Moonbow or Dumathoin seem to show up on multiple worlds?

Aside from what I’m assuming are real world legal reasons, why are some powers bound to one setting, while others exist across multiple?

white ravine
#

Some gods are able to spread their influence across multiple worlds, or two deities 'share' worship between multiple worlds by being parts of a shared entity (Tiamat and Takhisis, from forgotten realms and dragonlance respectively), and those gods that can reach across multiple worlds through their work aren't as bound to one world as another

desert ferry
#

Who else just loves the lore for the dragon gods?

jagged apex
#

i do, often it is very interesting

feral lintel
#

😄

jagged apex
# tardy wasp How exactly do divine planar shenanigans work in the multiverse? Why is Pelor bo...

it is less being bound there, is just that is where they are primarily worshiped as a god and thus have power and influence in, a god requires at least 1 devout worshiper in a setting to have any sort of presence in a setting from what i am aware, but the amount of worshipers ties into their power, abilities and status in that setting, so at least 1 devout worshiper would give them a presence, but not really much power ot do anything with

desert ferry
#

Especially with there lore with the first world

#

Because that's where a lot of there really good lore comes from which I'm referring to Eo being split into Sardior, Tiamat and Bahamut and Sardiors death

jagged apex
#

?

#

Io had no role in the first world myth

desert ferry
#

Ohhh yeah he didn't well since the first world is you know the first world i just assumed that

jagged apex
#

you know what they say about doing that

#

you likely were mixing it up with his death and the origin of bahamut and tiamat from past editions, which is to our knowledge unrelated to the first world myth

desert ferry
#

Nope but also that is just a minor part but Sardiors death is by far my favorite part and yeah i most likely was

jagged apex
#

yeah, but is a shame he had to have such a tragic fate for his 5e continuity debut, but is also interesting

desert ferry
#

Yeah it is real bummer but hey that's why in my games that's the answer to Io being split

jagged apex
#

at least there is that in universe theory/plan to restore him, gives his thanes in 5e a rather important role and story hook, in past editions from what i am aware they just kind of chilled in Sardior's divine realm

desert ferry
#

Yeah

#

And also because we really don't know much about Io besides him being insanely powerful it's hard to pin point his alignment

jagged apex
#

and insanely neutral, but one could argue is safe to presume that being simaltaniously every alignment, makes him a very complex entity, borderline alien

desert ferry
#

Ya like it would heavily imply on the dm for how to role play him me personally i just give multiple personality disorder between the dragon gods we know today

#

Which could also explain the very different personalities that they have

jagged apex
#

though at least one could probably make an educated guess if they got things like role playing tiamat and bahamut down pat, since supposedly in past editions she inherited all his most evil and selfish traits, and bahamut all his most good and noble traits, if memory serves

desert ferry
#

Yeah just dm a lot of Tiamat and Bahamut games and read up on anything you can get for Sardior

jagged apex
#

any pretty much any other draconic god, as in some editions unless i am mistaken they are all siblings in some capacity and children of Io

desert ferry
#

They are they see them selves as siblings instead of split parts of a greater being

jagged apex
#

and in the myths i am aware of that tie their birth to him being cut in two, sardior is not mentioned, is either bahamut, tiamat, and null, or just bahamut and tiamat

desert ferry
#

Yeah but maybe WOTC just swapped Null and Sardior out

jagged apex
#

doubtful since they represent entirely different concepts

desert ferry
#

Yeah but knowing them they might have like look at MOTM

#

Poor poor Yuan-ti

jagged apex
#

?

desert ferry
#

There lore it got so much less complex and in my opinion worse

jagged apex
#

well keep in mind is setting agnostic

desert ferry
#

Yeah but still where is my sweet juicy lore for my snake people

jagged apex
#

ie the lore and history of any given setting is not ment to be a factor and if it is, is loose at best, but i will admit at least the examples of non evil ones in the stuff like the player one could have been expanded on as it is left too vague to actually get an idea outside of what we have gotten over the years in the realms which has them so predisposed to evil

desert ferry
#

Yeah it really really sucks so i keep the old lore but also i keep the new mechanics

jagged apex
#

like given they sort of discredited volo's guide as canon and sectioned it off as part of legacy that takes away the info we did get on the ones on toril

desert ferry
#

Yeah

#

But hey at least homebrew exist!

jagged apex
#

like honestly i would have just liked a bit more lore context to quote "Most yuan-ti were corrupted into monsters by those rites, but some yuan-ti instead became a new people who mix characteristics of humans and snakes." and "However a yuan-ti looks, they have the power to pursue great good or evil in the multiverse." unlike other races like orcs for example, far as i am aware we are not aware of any examples in published materials that are not predisposed to evil, heck with the orcs not only do we have the likes of eberron to give us some vague idea, but even back in 2e got orcs on another planet in the forgotten realms setting, so if we ever get another book featuring the yuan-ti outside of a setting like the forgotten realms, i hope they take the opportunity to at least give us an example of two, how how snake people not known for being anything but evil, don't have to be evil, like in most media, snake people are evil in some capacity, so not exactly a lot of ideas out there in the public consciousness that are easy to think of

#

like sorry if i seem like i am ranting, just feels like the yuan-ti got the short end of the stick cuz they got left too vague and seems like nobody must have caught that before it got printed

#

but is after midnight over by me, so i should go to sleep

desert ferry
#

Yeah i should to

fast bobcat
# jagged apex like honestly i would have just liked a bit more lore context to quote "Most yua...

There's two noted examples of non-eviil Yuan-Ti in Eberron at the least. There's the actual Yuan-Ti from Syrkarn in Sarlona, who were mentioned as being eradicated and chased out by the Inspired Humans of Reidra. They're also mentioned in the Dragons of Xen'drik, where they were taken in by the Dragons of Argonnessen and given sanctuary, but their main civilisation was wiped out by the Dragons when the defied their hosts and delved too deep into profane rituals. Not necessarily evil, but generally implied to be influenced by something else like an overlord.
Then there's the Shulassakar, who are a race of humans with snake features that in 3.5 used a modified template over the Yuan-Ti, but are thematically closer to Aasimars with Coatl influences. As far as I've read, they're mechanically Yuan-Ti and they share a lot of similarities, bein Humans get transformed into them via rituals, except they're holy rituals of the Silver Flame. But they're also distinct from the other Yuan-Ti who exist in the same setting.

#

Although... the Yuan-Ti and Shulassakar both first appeared in the same general region of Sarlona.

magic jackal
fast bobcat
#

Yeah, they're snake people who descend from humans transformed via ritual and that's about it.
Very different in terms of thematics and how they interact with the setting at large.

fast bobcat
#

Close enough if you're looking for good aligned snake people I suppose.
But at the least the Yuan-Ti in Eberron are not evil by default.

sharp owl
jagged apex
fast bobcat
#

They're kind of obscure even by Eberron standards. Tucked away in Secrets of Sarlona, an old Dragonshards article you need to dig up the wayback machine for, and the Dragons of Argonessen book.

hallow vessel
#

Any plane to drop an enemy off who can teleport?

white ravine
#

Carceri.

#

Once your in, someone has to pull you out or you can never leave.

#

Or the negative energy plane, but then you have to deal with a nightwalker.

hallow vessel
#

And I'm thinking you can't just walk in to get your ally out?

#

Ah nightwalkers

sharp owl
#

Sigil doesn't allow teleportation in or out, but there are other ways out

hallow vessel
#

I remember cheesing a nightwalker with confusion

white ravine
#

Getting in is easy, but any portal that opens is likely going to be swamped in desperate degenerate souls looking for another lease at life.

sharp owl
#

I guess if you can get them mazed by the Lady of Pain

white ravine
#

She's more likely to maze YOU than your victim of the evening

#

The crime's the portal, not stepping through

hallow vessel
#

Anything that isn't undead can also work for the negative plane

white ravine
#

Mhm. Lesser undead in the negative plane will still die mind you

hallow vessel
#

Oh?

white ravine
#

Its that bad

hallow vessel
#

So a skeleton would just turn to dust?

white ravine
#

Over time, yeah

hallow vessel
#

Oh wow

#

But I'm guessing it's slower than for the living

white ravine
#

Other way around, iirc.

hallow vessel
#

Oh?

white ravine
#

Oh wait

#

Yeah your right, misread.

hallow vessel
#

XD

white ravine
#

Not much slower id imagine though

hallow vessel
#

For example a pit fiend how long would they last?

jagged apex
tropic drum
#

I don't think we have a definitive answer for how to become a vampire in the FR, right?

white ravine
#

Pit fiend would probably have some contingency to get out

#

Or at least, signal for aid and be brought out

hallow vessel
#

But if they didn't how long would such a fearsome creature last?

sharp owl
white ravine
jagged apex
hallow vessel
#

Or drink the blood of the vampire to not be the slave of it

tropic drum
hallow vessel
#

For example a terrasque would be toast either way?

white ravine
#

Depends. True Tarrasque or 5e baby tarrasque?

hallow vessel
#

Both?

#

I mean they can't use magic right?

white ravine
#

Normal Tarrasque could probably be fine indefinitely

hallow vessel
#

Oh?

#

But can't get out I'm assuming?

jagged apex
#

depending on the incarnation would be able to die since it is not on the prime material plane

hallow vessel
#

Nobody but those who want the world to burn would free it

Which is actually quite a lot honestly

sharp owl
jagged apex
#

i thought it was both

hallow vessel
#

Which would be the worst to trust? Devils or demons?

sharp owl
hallow vessel
#

Devils are more rational but have alterior motives

Demons are irrational and close minded

jagged apex
hallow vessel
#

Would a demon be easier to trick?

sharp owl
#

It's also possible to be turned into a vampire by deities or dark powers

hallow vessel
jagged apex
#

but on average i guess you could say in comparison, yes

hallow vessel
#

Some demons can just be bought with food

jagged apex
#

lol, if you are lucky

hallow vessel
#

I forgot the name of that one demon who would work for mortals for food

#

Below 10 Cr If I remember

sharp owl
tropic drum
#

Sure, let me repost.

sharp owl
#

@jagged apex I literally just stated that is a topic for a different channel

#

So please don't ignore that and attempt to continue the discussion

jagged apex
#

sorry

eager bay
#

Is there any lore for the Force Dragon? Or is it with the Prismatic Dragon just floating somewhere within the multiverse?

sharp owl
#

Here is all the apparent lore

Andy Collins, Bruce R. Cordell (July 2002). Epic Level Handbook. (Wizards of the Coast), pp. 181–184. ISBN 0-7869-2658-9.
Andy Collins, David Noonan, James Wyatt (2003). D&D v.3.5 Accessory Update Booklet. (Wizards of the Coast), pp. 20–21.
Eric L. Boyd, Eytan Bernstein (August 2006). Dragons of Faerûn. Edited by Beth Griese, Cindi Rice, Kim Mohan. (Wizards of the Coast), p. 11. ISBN 0-7869-3923-0.
Andrew Coleman (June 2005). “Cutting Up the Dragon”. In Erik Mona ed. Dragon #332 (Paizo Publishing, LLC), p. 56.

steady verge
#

Could there be a Aspect of Orcus or other such beings?

#

I want my players to battle Orcus in some fashion but I also don’t want Orcus to be there in person

sharp owl
iron saffron
#

Demon lords and archdevils had aspects in 3.5E.

grim siren
tardy wasp
#

What do Selunite priests do when they aren't adventuring or fighting Shar/evil lycans? When the shadows are banished and the night is calm once more, what do they go home to? A Gondan might be working on a new crafting project, a Chauntean might assist local farmers, but what do Selunites do?

magic jackal
#

I mean you mostly answered your question

#

They're priests, they've got many duties, adventuring and fighting the enemies of Selûne are but one of their duties.

#

It's not like those are the only domains of Selûne and it's not as though being a Priest of Selûne means that those are the only things you can ever do, and it also isn't as though they're categorically prohibited from spreading their faith, helping in other ways Selûne would approve of, or just pursuing other jobs/interests etc.

iron saffron
#

Remember that not all priests are adventuring clerics. Past editions did make a distinction between the two (although 2E referred to clerics as under the "priest" class, which included speciality priests dedicated to specific deities and druids).

unkempt merlin
#

5e puts emphasis on that as well

#

A cleric is far more rare than a priest. Even if the priest is a spellcaster.

modest badger
#

Actually is there any sources for things like that?
I know in AD&D you could kind of conjecture how rare certain classes were meant to be from the percantage tables for encounters of different classes (for hirelings or just other NPCs), but in 5e the boundary between NPC statblocks representing classes (like priest for cleric) and the actual classed adventurers seems to be more a mechanical convenience than a narrative/lore boundary

jagged apex
modest badger
#

Not sure about that logic. Priests are 5th level spellcasters capable of spells, description or no (although narratively it would make sense that some priests would be less or more powerful spellcasters)

iron saffron
#

I think in 3E that mentions that some deities' priests are non-spellcasters so they handle the mundane parts of dealing with everyday worshippers at their temples.

jagged apex
#

like regardless of stats, the concept of a priest is what is described there at least in the 5e continuity to my knowledge, clerics are basically akin to like a super priest or one that has the aid of their god, and this is even more explained in the free stuff for the cleric class on dnd beyond, espeically in this section https://www.dndbeyond.com/classes/cleric#DivineAgents

#

and like above that it also notes clerics as Healers and Warriors

modest badger
#

Oh true!

Not every acolyte or officiant at a temple or shrine is a cleric. Some priests are called to a simple life of temple service, carrying out their gods’ will through prayer and sacrifice, not by magic and strength of arms. In some cities, priesthood amounts to a political office, viewed as a stepping stone to higher positions of authority and involving no communion with a god at all. True clerics are rare in most hierarchies.

#

Rather off then that the Priest stat block is a 5th level caster. Although stat blocks are little for convenience sake.

jagged apex
#

a cleric, like a true cleric as a player character is, just as likely to shame you for your sins as they are to kick your butt for them, depending on the deity, like i imagine deities such as Lendys, draconic god of harsh justice, would be such clerics https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Lendys

jagged apex
jagged apex
tardy wasp
jagged apex
#

honestly, may wish to check the forgotten realms wiki for such details first before asking here

unkempt merlin
# modest badger Actually is there any sources for things like that? I know in AD&D you could kin...

Not every acolyte or officiant at a temple or shrine is a cleric. Some priests are called to a simple life of temple service, carrying out their gods' will through prayer and sacrifice, not by magic and strength of arms. In some cities, priesthood amounts to a political office, viewed as a stepping stone to higher positions of authority and involving no communion with a god at all. True clerics are rare in most hierarchies

#

Oh you found it too lol

jagged apex
#

and if that does not at least give you enough of an idea, then maybe someone here can provide further clarification, and if all else fails, i'd suggest asking ed greenwood himself

modest badger
# unkempt merlin Oh you found it too lol

Scarletsteam pointed it out to me- I'd completely missed that bit. Curious which classes this sort of logic applies to. Like druid npc statblocks vs Druids, martial adepts vs monks and such. The question of 'how rare are adventurers of X level' has always been a difficult one to answer clearly in my experience.

unkempt merlin
#

Of a given level is hard to answer due to how classes are relatively non diegetic

#

But in terms of "people with these specific types of abilities" the cleric bit is something of an answer

#

With the whole "just cause a priest is a spellcaster it doesn't mean they are a cleric" thing that is

modest badger
#

There is also that. I just remember the generally understood concept was that adventures even of level one where exceptional and rare. That anyone with even those beginning abilities was exceptional. And then the 'tiers' while not diegetic being a guideline to judge how rare people of that skill and level should be.
Often this comes into the question of 'How available are spells of this level to people'.

I know in older editions there could often be things where they'd have 'At least X amount of population are X level fighters' and have levels for rulers and such. Usually in terms of encounters.

jagged apex
#

yeah in comparison on average to my knowledge a player character of 1st level or higher is exceptional or otherwise special compared to an average commoner or member of their own kind

unkempt merlin
#

It's also heavily dependent on setting

jagged apex
#

true

unkempt merlin
jagged apex
#

indeed

white ravine
#

Tbh, even a commoner usually isnt as pitiful as a commoner. Lumberjacks and such would be stronger, lowly scribes and librarians a bit smarter, a blacksmith might carry around a dagger rather than a 2x4, etc.

#

The base 10 stats, 4 hp, club bearing commoner is the base template that deserves more

jagged apex
#

well, average is average, which is what the statblocks detail

#

but that is more mechanics so will not go further on that

gloomy cedar
#

I'm confused about Acheron and its gate town Rigus. They are both seem to be about eternal war but with whom? And there seem to be some implications that they are in conflict with each other

jagged apex
gloomy cedar
jagged apex
#

well it is one of major notable wars, but from my understanding it may not be the only one, am double checking right now

#

to quote the 5e dmg "That’s the nature of Acheron: strife and war, as the spirits of fallen soldiers join in endless battle against orcs devoted to Gruumsh, goblinoids loyal to Maglubiyet, and legions assembled by other warmongering gods."

#

is war is a core part of what the plane and the things in it represents more or less

#

is like vahalla, but without things like honor, revelry, ect..., it is mainly war 24/7

#

in terms of alignment, it is the plane that represents both lawful neutral and lawful evil, though not sure how if at all that ties into it being innately a place of strife and war

jagged apex
calm crest
#

Acheron wars with itself. The 5e lore for Rigus, along with it being less alignmentally extreme than Acheron, would seem to suggest Rigus can stage war against whatever it wants.

jagged apex
#

though honeslty reading it's details in 5e, i instantly though of the bootcamp analogy

calm crest
#

It certainly seems an apt comparison.

obsidian gate
#

what happens to the dead souls who die in the wars on archeron anyway?

stuck jungle
meager topaz
#

Is it only astral elves who have spelljammers or do all elf races have their own type?

sharp owl
#

Neither

#

Astral elves are elves who have established their home in the astral sea and their empires have a signature pattern of spelljammer

#

However, that is not to say that astral elves do not use other types of spelljammer, or that non-astral elves don't have spelljammers

grim siren
#

The Elven Imperial Navy almost exclusively uses crystalline ships grown to their own specifications, including the flitter, the man-o-war, and the mighty armada, as well as specialized designs such as the radiant ship. However, since there are never enough ships to meet all their needs, elven Fleets have taken to employing designs that are deemed "acceptable", including the hammership and the swanship. Certain independent elven nations use their own unique designs, such as the Doombat, while the island nation of Evermeet maintains its own fleet of man-o-war inspired vessels known as the Ruathimaer (or "starwings").

Dale "Slade" Henson, War Captain's Companion, Ship Recognition Manual, 1992, (TSR Inc.), Ships of the Spelljammer Universe,

Sam Witt, The Astromundi Cluster, The Astrogator's Guide, 1993, (TSR Inc.), Ships and Equipment chapter, page 26

Ed Greenwood, SJR1 Lost Ships, 1990, (TSR Inc.), Ship Catalog chapter, page 66

Jeff Grubb. AD&D Adventures in Space; Lorebook of the Void, TSR, Inc., 1989, chapter 2: Spelljammers (p.39)

Anthony Pryor, Elves of Evermeet, 1994, (TSR Inc.), ISBN: 1-56076-829-0, Aerial Navy section, chapter 5: Evermeet's Defenders, page 87

sharp owl
grim siren
#

The Elven Imperial Fleet, or Elven Imperial Navy, was the primary wildspace military force of the elves from ***all ***systems. Their Symbol the Elven Man-O-War. And the Man-O-War is the exact same as the Star Moths of the Xaryxian Empire. This is not to construe that they are the same.

#

The Fleet was ruled by a Council of Admirals from multiple Systems, including Realmspace, Kyrnnspace, Greyspace, Wildspace. And it was made of nearly every elven subrace. What is safe to say is the Astral Elves of the Xaryxian Empire most assuredly do not have a monopoly on Spelljammers for all Elvenkind.

jagged apex
#

in the 5e continuity, i easily could see wild/green/copper elves that take to the stars making use of the Living Ship

#

like at the very least would be a very thematic choice far as i can tell if nothing else

fallow leaf
#

Man I wanted more information on what diff groups of people did in space than just guys living on the rock of bral and astral elf citadels

#

Give us dwarven meteor mountain homes

iron saffron
#

Remember that astral elves are a 5E Spelljammer creation because 2E Spelljammer didn't involve the Astral Plane/Sea. The 2E Spelljammer elves were just referred to as the Elven Imperial Navy.

jagged apex
#

remembers in 5e continuity there are literally not one but 2 creatures that are specifically designed to disguise themselves as asteroids/meteors i can think of a few reasons why they did not give such examples, though just cuz it is not overtly explained and details in the books does not mean they don't exist, the tools for such a thing are definitely all there

iron saffron
jagged apex
#

far as i know at least in regards to the rock of bral, it was mainly detailed do to it being more or less the most popular settlement in published materials in wild space, and the astral elves being an entire extra planar civilisation, would make sense why they would at the very least get used as main examples

#

but again, even without digging into the 2e incarnation, there are tools and the like you would need to establish such dwarves in spelljammer and keep it plausible

iron saffron
#

If you want to go in more depth then I recommend looking up the 2E Spelljammer books. 5E is very limited.

jagged apex
#

plus from your "give us..." statement and oldman's reference of what similar things were in the past incarnation, seems likely they did not give examples cuz not every race could be narrowed down to special space faring civilization that was not too restricted, but you easily can make some with the existing lore and what not, not just in spelljammer but in dnd 5e in general, you just need to let your mind make those connections and jumps to get things like, as you said dwarves that live on massive asteroids

#

cuz if i am not mistaken, a meteor would be somewhat point less cuz it would have already have crashed into a planet or be in the process of doing so, which would either destroy most of the stuff built on it, killed the dwarves living on it, or both

jagged apex
# iron saffron If you want to go in more depth then I recommend looking up the 2E Spelljammer b...

only if going by the stuff explicitly published in the 5e books, at least in my opinion, with limited page counts and the other issues, it gets a bit much to put that expectation realistically on a single book, nothing is stopping them from putting out further expansion via more adventures, books, ect... in the future of 5e's life cycle, but we gotta let it proceed and not complain overtly about it, sure once or twice might be nice, but if people keep dog piling on it and saying negative things on it, odds are the suits will not approve future books relating to spelljammer, cuz they will just see the negative

grim siren
#

What type of patron and what setting

jagged apex
#

one popular punishments is post death, turning them into a deathlock

iron saffron
#

This is more of an "Ask your DM" question.

jagged apex
#

to quote their 5e lore from monsters of the multiverse "The forging of a pact between a warlock and a patron is no minor occasion—at least not for the warlock. The consequences of breaking that pact can be dire and, in some cases, lethal. A warlock who fails to live up to a bargain with an evil patron runs the risk of rising from the dead as a deathlock, a foul Undead driven to serve its otherworldly patron."

#

so if the patreon is evil, the default published lore very much supports that fate as a potential punishment

#

but even someone none evil ones could dish out such a fate in theory

#

i would imagine the raven queen would not be apposed to turning some unfaithful pact maker into some version of a deathlock

#

but ultimately it really does come down to the personality, nature, ect... of the patron in question and thus your dm

#

more like they have justification to claim your soul

grim siren
#

Depends on the nature of the pact, the type of patron and the setting you are in.

#

Note: Not all patrons want souls.

jagged apex
#

but at the very least, mechanically without respecting, this would mean they wouldn't be able to take further levels in warlock it seemingly gets implied that power is easier to give than it is to take when it comes to warlocks, again your dm can always rule otherwise depending on the setting or just even how they run their games

jagged apex
iron saffron
#

That is an "Ask your DM" question because ultimately your DM decides what happens to your warlock and their patron.

jagged apex
#

but souls tend to be useful to otherworldly beings, especially those of the outerplanes

#

unless you have a specific patron from the published lore, but even then we could only give you ideas of what to expect assuming the dm is playing them to their character in the published materials

#

besides the nature of a warlock is often in some cases more of an exchange, you do something for them from time to time and from time to time they give or unlock more power within you

#

though there are some cases like the great old one where the being so immense and unfathomable to where the tiny spec you draw on is not even enough to grab the patron's attention, so it may not even acknowledge or care about your existence

#

though based on your question, seems your case is definitely leaning in more the whole exchange kind of way of doing things

#

like from what i am aware, make a pact with karsus, or what's left of him, what he'll want is to be able to experience the world via that warlock, so everything you feel he'd be able to feel and otherwise experiance, though from what i am aware this at least in some editions could also make you more susceptible to physical harm, but i think that is ment to be more so mechanics from older editions, though again i could be wrong on that or have been misinformed

runic tiger
#

What is known about how lower class Drow are raised?

If you're not the Drow equivalent of a trust fund kid, what then?

Are commoners separated from their family to be trained in the military or in a service career? Thinking Sparta or Black Widow.

Or is it nuclear family, like the Simpsons just with more murder?

Or something else?

jagged apex
#

at least in regards the forgotten realms and likely the lolth worshiping drow

grim siren
runic tiger
#

FR, standard Lolthite city like Menzo, not some weird Ghanaudur stuff

empty crescent
#

I have some questions regarding Bhaal, God of murder. Is there any known weaknesses or efficient ways to counter him and his Bhaalspawn? I have a paladin that is attempting to "redeem" one of his Bhaalspawn sons, so I'm trying to articulate what the right angle is on how to counter Bhaal's mindsets and such.

jagged apex
#

definitely look to the wiki and otherwise the baldur's gate games themselves, as that is basically a premise that exists within those events

empty crescent
#

Yeah I read the wiki, didn't find what I was looking for exactly. I'm in the beginning stage of a Durge playthrough so I can't get much intel without spoilers 😔

jagged apex
empty crescent
#

Balthazar was definitely the most intriguing, wish there was more info about him

jagged apex
#

which seems reasonable as one of them has been a character across continuitues, being in both novels and games

#

according to the wiki, though sited as being from baldur's gate 2, "The divine essence of a Bhaalspawn was part of their soul, but with processes that separated soul from body, others could also gain some of the essence for themselves."

#

though honestly if you have the money or time, i'd suggest either playing bg3 or watching a let's play of it, as there is a storyline in that game which would definitely help get an idea of how such a thing could go down in universe

empty crescent
#

Oh I'm playing it!

#

Like I said, I'm in Act 1 still

#

(had to restart during act 3)

jagged apex
#

otherwise, this is not the right channel for talk of it, if you want more specifically examples and stuff from bg 3, i'd suggest asking in #baldurs-gate-3-spoilers

empty crescent
#

Okay thank you

restive summit
#

Day 89 of complaining that there’s no Dragon Patron subclass option for Warlocks (that I know of)

grim siren
#

While not really a lore Q, one could make a Celestial Pact with an Agent of Bahamut or a Fiendish Lock with Tiamat

snow laurel
#

Which would you say is easier; finding a portal into an elemental plane on the prime material big enough to sail a spelljammer through, or find a portal to the ethereal big enough to sail a spelljammer through and from there sail to an elemental plane?

iron saffron
#

Neither. Spelljammers are suppose to travel between worlds in the Material Plane and not suppose to go between planes (5E Spelljammer screwed things up with spelljamming sails sailing in the Astral Plane rather the phlogiston/wildspace).

unkempt merlin
#

They do still sail between worlds in the material plane

#

And they also still sail in wildspace

iron saffron
#

Worlds are in the Material Plane.

snow laurel
iron saffron
#

You use gates if you want to travel between the Material Plane and the Inner or Outer Planes.

#

Ethereral is the transitional plane between the Material and Inner Planes (such as the elemental planes).

Astral is the transitional plane between the Material and Outer Planes.

snow laurel
#

We know, for instance, that stars often have portals to the elemental plane of fire in them, so if a spelljammer could theoretically endure the heat of a star it could get into the plane of fire, but I don't know if that is more reasonable than finding a portal (or gate if you want to be pedantic) to the ethereal

unkempt merlin
#

And the phlog wasn't in the material plane either. They always sailed out of the material plane.

iron saffron
snow laurel
#

I feel you're not understanding me.

iron saffron
snow laurel
#

I'm not asking "can a spelljammer reach the ethereal or inner planes through its own power" but "if there existed a portal to an elemental and/or ethereal plane big enough to send a spelljammer to, which of those would be more easy to locate?"

iron saffron
unkempt merlin
#

It was a transitive plane

sharp owl
#

If people want to ask questions about what you could do or what would be easier, that'd be a topic for #dm-world-building

torpid quartz
#

What is mature age for a kenku?

white ravine
rugged rivet
#

What divine realm does Lathander reside in?

#

iv tried to find it, but there does not seem to be any info on it

grim siren
rugged rivet
#

Thank you, for season reason i thought that was a church of some kind and never clicked on it

grim siren
#

Specifically its Morninglory

The realm of Lathander was a place of natural beauty infused with the colors of dawn and included a mountain lake and a meadow. Here stood a cathedral of tall timber that served as Lathander's home. Anyone resting in Morninglory felt fully refreshed in half the time as usual.

rugged rivet
#

I am creating a homebrew attack and other abilites based around lathander, and this helps a lot actually, thank you

lapis musk
#

check

wraith zenith
#

Hello hello

#

I have a question about Slaadi

#

In particular, how does their shapechanging ability work? Why would they use it, and how would they behave while in e.g. human form?

sharp owl
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The why would be to accomplish their goals, and the how would be likely the same

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For example

Some slaadi can transform into the humanoid creatures from which they were originally spawned. These slaadi return to the Material Plane to sow discord in the guise of their former selves.

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They are creatures of chaos, so often their goals will be to spread chaos and discord on the material plane and beyond

wraith zenith
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There's a very big variance in the intelligence levels of Slaadi. The scenario in my head is getting closer to "A hag might do this" - it's an organised stakeout. Is that even true of their chaotic origins? They have been twisted under the will of a greater power but I'd like to honour the flavour

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I also think it'd be funny to play it a bit like the alien shapechangers in Men in Black - almost bursting at the seams, barely handling the facade physiologically

sharp owl
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Slaadi are creatures of pure chaos and loathe order on a viceral level

sharp owl
wraith zenith
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Yeah. Which is kinda why I feel like "I'm going to pretend to be this other creature" is a weird ability for them unless... Oh, it's probably to do with the tadpole thing? Maybe it's a way of getting close to potential hosts

sharp owl
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Slaadi are the side effect of trying to impose order on chaos and as such almost reflect an immune response to that order

wraith zenith
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Oh ok

sharp owl
wraith zenith
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hang on. "Some slaadi can transform into the humanoid creatures from which they were originally spawned." Maybe by the book it's a limited thing and a function of their specific origins

sharp owl
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No, that's not a limited thing, it's just worded that way because it doesn't apply to all slaadi

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Not every slaadi spawns the same way, some don't have an original humanoid form

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Slaadi reproduce either by implanting humanoid hosts with eggs or by infecting them with a transformative disease called chaos phage.

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Each green slaad undergoes a lifelong cycle of transformation into the more powerful gray and death slaadi.

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In typical fashion, it's a convoluted process

  • Red slaadi implant eggs, which grow into slaad tadpoles and tear their way out. These tadpoles develop into either blue or green slaadi
  • Blue slaadi infect their victims with chaos phage, that transforms them slowly into either red or green slaadi
  • Green slaadi eventually transform into grey or death slaadi
wraith zenith
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I might just throw them in as foreshadowing moreso than in the way I planned, as agents of a warped demigod thingy. Limbo is on the horizon but it doesn't make sense for them to dote for days waiting in ambush.

sharp owl
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Again, that's a topic for a different channel

wraith zenith
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All good. Cheers for the help ✌

fresh token
sharp owl
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Because that's not how they work

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A spelljamming helm (the arcane device that turns any suitable object into a spelljammer) grants it the ability to move through wildspace and the astral sea that lies beyond

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Asking why a spelljammer doesn't touch the ethereal plane is kinda like asking why a submarine doesn't touch space

fresh token
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So the helm, literally doesn't work in the Ethereal.

sharp owl
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That wasn't what I said?

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I said the helm doesn't facilitate travel to the ethereal plane

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it facilitates travel from a world to wildspace, and from wildspace out to the astral sea beyond

fresh token
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I get that part, moving between the planes is not something it does.

sharp owl
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Yes, so a spelljamming vessel reaching the ethereal plane wouldn't actually have anything specifically to do with it being a spelljamming vessel

fresh token
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This may be less about the vessel and more about the Ethereal plane itself...and I have not fully delved into Planescape so it may be answered there.....

Is the Ethearel Plane simply a place that can't be sailed with a spelljammer assuming the helm and vessel were say in Sigil? As you said....the Atral is water, and the Ethearel is space.

sharp owl
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I'm not saying the Astral is water and Ethereal is space, I was just presenting an analogy as to why your question of "Why not" doesn't really make sense

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And Sigil is a whole other kettle of fish; a Spelljammer couldn't really get there because the only way into or out of the City of Doors is through the titual portals that permit access

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Sigil is otherwise inaccessible

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It's also not in, or adjacent to the Ethereal Plane

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The Ethereal Plane borders on the Material Plane and the Inner Planes. Sigil and the Outlands connect to the Outer Planes and Astral Sea

fresh token
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Ok. That tracks.

I was simply following your analogy to continue to try to understand the differences between the Astral and Ethereal and why if a helm taken to the Ethereal why it would not be possible to move through the Ethereal Plane.

Not trying to prove anything, just trying to understand cause I love lore

sharp owl
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However, you can't get to/into Sigil from the Outlands, even though Sigil is located atop the Spire at the center of the Outlands

grim siren
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Jammin' won't get you to the other planes, but you can find Jammers in the planes. Simply find or make a portal big enough and you can sail right on through.

sharp owl
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I'm not sure if colour pools big enough for a spelljammer natively exist in the Astral Sea

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Ah, not even close, 1d6x10 feet diameter

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Wait, lemme check the size of spelljammers

fresh token
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That is likely a world building convo.

Just asked if a helm and vessel were in the Ethereal plane if it would function and someone could move through the plane.

white ravine
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You theoretically could pilot a spelljammer and go through the colored fog curtains of the ethereal plane to get around same as with color pools in the astral, but yknow...why do you have a spelljammer in the ethereal in the first place lol

white ravine
sharp owl
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Actually, looks like you would be able to get some spelljammers through larger color pools

grim siren
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Yep and even then spells like gate or plane shift can theroretically work. We see it in the BG3 opening cinematic, a spelljammer hopping from the Prime Material, then going to Winters Heart, then Baator.

sharp owl
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I don't know if Gate would work, it caps out at 20 ft so unless you had a really small spelljammer, you'd be hard pressed to thread that needle

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Plane Shift only targets creatures

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Although this is from a purely mechanical perspective, I'm trying to do a quick glance for narrative instances of the spells being used, which I think is a thing

jagged apex
# grim siren Yep and even then spells like gate or plane shift can theroretically work. We se...

i forget and am also curious, if the one used by the illithid in the opening cinematic one of those old and refurbished living ships that they supposidly used to use, or one of those more substitute ones that they wind up having to deal with the mercane for? cuz from what i am aware their og ones, at least in relation to the origin that has them having traveled from the future was tech those on toril don't have and have not rediscovered yet, but were made from living worm like creatures of great size, cuz if it is one of those og nautiloids, that could be potentially tied to that magical/psionic tech that they don't have presently on toril

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also, i forget, is the time displaced origin still in tact for illithid in 5e or was it altered for this continuity? i genuinely forget if it was and if so where it would have been established

iron saffron
grim siren
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There is no confirmed origin for the Mind Flayers. There are multiple conflicting stories.

Story 1: Villains from Days of Future Past

Some sages theorized that mind flayers were aliens from an unimaginably distant future, who had come back in time to prevent their extinction from being brought upon by the end of the universe. By the use of a powerful spell, they sent their great spelljamming fleet back in time, arriving at different time periods in different crystal spheres and reestablishing their empires. This interpretation was consistent with the fact that aboleths, even with their perfect racial memories, did not remember the beginnings of the illithid race.

Source: Richard Baker, James Jacobs, and Steve Winter (April 2005). Lords of Madness: The Book of Aberrations. (Wizards of the Coast), pp. 7, 30, 69. ISBN 0-7869-3657-6.

Story 2: Horrors of the Cluster

Others believed that, because of their advanced technology and ships, illithids were a cursed, inbred mutant offspring of humans from an ancient and distant crystal sphere known as the Astromundi Cluster,forced to live in the underground depths of their world, honing their mental skills and experimenting with psionic powers for ages until the hate for their oppressors caused them to seek vengeance and set out to conquer the universe.

Source: Sam Witt (1993). “Adventures in the Shattered Sphere”. In Michele Carter ed. The Astromundi Cluster (TSR, Inc.), pp. 48–51. ISBN 1-56076-632-8.

Story 3: Far Realm Purveyors and Cult of Thoon

Other scholars dismissed the origin myths of illithids as a mutant breed of humans, instead believing that they might have originated in the Far Realm, (referred to as the "Outside" in the Sargonne Prophecies,) or at least had been warped by it. A group of mind flayers who later reached the Far Realm on a nautiloid returned with drastically changed bodies, minds, and goals, worshiping an unknown entity referred to as Thoon.

Sources: (July 2007). Monster Manual V. (Wizards of the Coast), p. 104. ISBN 0-7869-4115-4.

Mike Mearls, Jeremy Crawford, Christopher Perkins, James Wyatt (2014). Dungeon Master's Guide 5th edition. (Wizards of the Coast), p. 68. ISBN 978-0786965622.

jagged apex
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not counting volo's guide to monsters since is now legacy, all the 5e monster manual, at least the current version, seems to give us is "In eons past, illithids controlled empires that spanned many worlds. They subjugated and consequently warped whole races of humanoid slaves, including the githyanki and githzerai, the grimlocks, and the kuo-toa. Conjoined by a collective consciousness, the illithids hatch plots as far-reaching and evil as their fathomless minds can conceive.
Since the fall of their empires, illithid collectives on the Material Plane have resided in the Underdark."

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so, seems left up to interpretation if they are still considered to be time displaced or not, like is not out right contradicted it seems, but it does not confirm it to be the case either

grim siren
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Yea time displaced was never "Confirmed." It was merely listed as an option. And it wasn't even the first option discussed. As the proposed Origin in Culsterspace is the oldest written record.

jagged apex
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honestly, to me, time displaced super empire of intelligent body morphing parasites that are still recovering from almost being wiped out by a race they basically made into super soldiers, seems like the most interesting one to me

calm crest
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It is basically the plot of a BECMI module!

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||CM6: Where Chaos Reigns, to be specific.||

gilded lava
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I’m not sure if I’m understanding the cloak of displacement and displacer beast’s ability correctly, do they just make them look like they’re standing a bit to the side, or does it create a duplicate like in Honor Among Thieves?

feral lintel
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it makes it look like they are standing somewhere else close by

jagged apex
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it is an illusion either way

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the movie took creative liberties though

jagged apex
gilded lava
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ok, thanks!

jagged apex
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basically much like larien when developing bg3, the directors behind the movie at times did slight house rules/deviations from the established lore for the sake of what is known as "the rule of cool"

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honestly, the way it is depicted in the film, really is only reliable cuz of the specific senario it was in, outside of a maze like area, that manner of the illusion would be much easier to see through

iron saffron
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It's like equating what happens in the MCU movies to what's in the Marvel comics.

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Anyway, the magic item isn't really a lore issue but a gameplay one.

jagged apex
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yeah, like the mcu is closer to the ultimate universe line of comics, as they are much more nerfed and ment to be more grounded

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though in the case of the magic item, the vibration based way makes the most sense, since it is literally the skinned pelt of the creature that it is made from

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but since it's dnd is more so just the dm, in this case the director's way of interpreting the ability looking for the sake how it looks in the film

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and rule of cool in that case is basically, does it look cool, and does it still make enough sense in the context it is given?

jagged apex
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also apparently he also goes into the item too near the end of the video

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at about the 14:57 mark

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and seems since one of the known things attributes the ability to do that displacement ability is tied to the tentacles and supposedly is why the artwork includes the tentacles even once made into a cloak, if i had to guess may have been what gave them the idea to depict it the way they did in the film

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honestly the way he describes it reminds me of dc comics flash, but rather than vibrating to the vibrations of another universe to effectively travel to new realities, the displacer beast more or less vibrates in a way that kind of distorts reality in a very specific way

fickle trout
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What would a god of life tell her angels to do on the material plane?

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Trying to figure out what actions an angel (me) would do while on the material plane, originally an elf.

white ravine
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Angels tend to not get dispatched often, and when they do it's often a big deal

fickle trout
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Oh, thanks

rain maple
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When was baldurs gate founded?

jagged apex
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depending when you would define as it's founding, but became widely known as Baldur's gate in 446 DR

drifting robin
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here's a question I hope someone can help answer for me, so DnDBeyond mentions something about "gravity dragons" in the review involving the Time Dragon, and I can't find any info about it except through some minor homebrew... were they doing a sales pitch thing or are gravity dragons actually part of the game?

jagged apex
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given their powers, is likely an unofficial alternative name for the Amethyst Dragon, who's breath weapon literally creates a singularity and a magical item infused with it's power has gravity manipulating based spells infused into

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far as i know, that one time you are reffering to is the only instance one has been reffered to as such if that is the case

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but presumably is like how blue dragons are also known as storm dragons, or black dragons are known also as skull dragons, and so on

feral lintel
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In earlier editions, it had like, CR 80 or something

sharp owl
drifting robin
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Ah okay thanks!

modest badger
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It’s About Time
We’ve got gravity dragons, death dragons, fey dragons, and space dragons, so why not time dragons? These temporal titans, with their unique abilities to weave through the tapestry of time, are perfect for mind-bending, existential adventures.

Whether you’re playing in Planescape, Spelljammer, Radiant Citadel, or any multiverse-hopping setting, time dragons are bound to spice up your timelines and add a curveball to your campaign!
(https://www.dndbeyond.com/posts/1592-when-time-flies-preview-the-time-dragon-from)

Yeah I'm guessing this is Amethyst, ??? ,Moonstone (or Fairy, literal fey dragons), and Solar & Lunar Dragons.

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Oh, Dragonlance has literal 'Death Dragons'

feral lintel
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death dragons also can refer to dracoliches

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but yeah, dragonlance has actual death dragons

modest badger
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I'd say those would be 'Undead dragons', but yeah. Death Dragons seem pretty Death Dragony dndLol

feral lintel
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Fun fact, in 3.5e, Time dragons had CR 90

rough fractal
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Hey guys, I have a question. The class of Ranger also comes with the occupation of ranger, the responsibility of a lawman of the lands outside of civilization. They are granted blessings by Mielikki in the Forgotten Realms and decent ones know some degree of magic.
Can one outside of the Ranger class hold the ranger occupation? Must they hold the same Alignment restrictions of a Ranger? There is a Harper Assassin in my Forgotten Realms game that wishes to be a ranger as in the occupation, but being an Assassin they are Evil. I want to make this happen for them, but honestly don't know where to start

feral lintel
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is this 5e?

spark haven
rough fractal
spark haven
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Mechanical feature names are different from "the names that in-fiction characters use for their jobs"

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Paladins could be called anything by citizens of the setting: Zealots, Champions, Templars

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still a paladin

feral lintel
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rangers (not the class) aso can refer to anyone who fights in the wilds

spark haven
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yeah

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a druid could be a ranger, a paladin could be a ranger

feral lintel
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theres a difference between the actual class, and a mundane job description

spark haven
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it's just someone whose workspace is "the ranges"

rough fractal
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One of the big things is where the authority of a ranger comes from? It's not like you go to the ranger office and ask for an application

feral lintel
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i think it can be self imposed or imposed by others

spark haven
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I imagine most of their authority comes from strength of force, really

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They're explicitly wandering undeveloped/uninhabited land so it's not like there's a courthourse nearby

feral lintel
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In LOTR, strier may have just been called a ranger because of his lifestyle

sharp owl
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Ranger is three different things in D&D, even in FR

  • a class (a non-diegetic bundle of mechanics, not relevant to this channel)
  • a title that might be issued as part of an organisation or military. For example, the Harpers might have agents that operate as rangers
  • a profession, aka a way of living. Someone might not call themselves a ranger, but will live as one

So in lore you can be a ranger without calling yourself one, or be called a ranger but not have ranger magic or anything like that

late flower
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Are any of Mystra's Chosen classified as Celestials?

void valley
jagged apex
late flower
jagged apex
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basically unknown to mortals, she exists in the weave itself, making her ever present and hidden on toril

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so especially if anyone is casting a spell she could in theory step in and wisk them away to extra dimensional space to talk to them, be it on good terms or bad terms

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to me at least that has interesting implications, hooks, and otherwise things you could do that could build off of it

tranquil heron
#

What are some cool things about Waterdeep in the lore?

iron saffron
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There's a massive megadungeon inside Mount Waterdeep.

neon pumice
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bunch of factions present there too

tranquil heron
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Is there an official map of Waterdeep, or is it mostly imagination?

neon pumice
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yeah there’s a map

iron saffron
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There's been official maps for decades

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You can find it in Waterdeep: Dragon Heist.

neon pumice
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it’s a great map if i do say so myself

tranquil heron
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Ah, I'll go grab it and look at it.

sharp owl
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It's protected by a form of massive, permanent spell called a mythal that keeps out dragons

iron saffron
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Waterdeep: Dragon Heist is half lore about the city and half adventure (I only bought it for the lore parts)

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There was the 2E Volo's Guide to Waterdeep, which is essentially Volo's Yelp of various stores, inns, and taverns in the city.

tranquil heron
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Any chance you know what page it's on?

neon pumice
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the map?

iron saffron
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Waterdeep has giant golems that look like different types of statues to protect the city from invasion.

tranquil heron
sharp owl
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It's called Ahghairon's Dragonward and repells any creature with draconic blood

tranquil heron
sharp owl
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However, this doesn't affect dragonborn, and it's possible to use the Dragonstaff of Ahghairon to grant a creature immunity for as long as the wielder permits

iron saffron
tranquil heron
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Oh, I remember reading about the dragonward. It's pretty interesting.

sharp owl
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Gonna need to tear those perforations

tranquil heron
sharp owl
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It is in the book, at the back

tranquil heron
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I personally like the Griffon Cavalry.

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I just mean I wish it was on a page in the book, so I didn't have to tear it out. It's all good though.

neon pumice
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there’s an interactive waterdeep map online somewhere

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has way more pois than the physical map

tranquil heron
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Are both sides of the map the same? I notice one has a border and the other doesn't.

jagged apex
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is also considered quote "the most important and influential city in the North and perhaps in all Faerûn."

tranquil heron
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That's pretty interesting.

jagged apex
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oh and the current open lord is a chosen of mystra and one of her seven daughters

tranquil heron
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I feel like the more I keep reading, the more awesome Waterdeep is.

iron saffron
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It's a big metropolis not only in the Sword Coast but Faerun.

jagged apex
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it is literally known as the city of splendors

iron saffron
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Waterdeep: Dragon Heist does a good job cover the lore about the city.

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Waterdeep: Mad Mage less so.

tranquil heron
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I've heard that Mad Mage is a big change from Dragon Heist.

iron saffron
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It's a mega dungeon crawl.

jagged apex
#

plus a good bit of some fun details that might not necessarily be in the published version especially in ant one specific edition's lore books, on ed greenwood's youtube channel, ed being incase you did not know, the original creator of the forgotten realms setting
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NIhDd4qzIME
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OV1hLg9gitU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=62gWRhcqi0Y&t=22s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YmUPFS_ILk4&t=1232s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XtOLD-XFbZU
and those are just the ones on waterdeep that i am aware of and have watched

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one of them answering perhaps one of the most mundane but most popular questions, "does waterdeep have toilets?"

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cuz obviously some people jump to conclusions do to the popular misconception of dnd being specifically medieval fantasy, when really it is not

#

well to be fair, mad mage mainly focuses on the dungeon of and location of undermountain itself, more so than the city

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in mad mage, the city of waterdeep is more of a backdrop and by no means the focus, the location that is the focus just happens to be in or near the city, forget which it is off the top of my head, but it is either in the city or near it

oblique badge
#

is there any recent lore or mentions on Maztica and anchorome

jagged apex
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not to my knowledge other than maybe a throw away line, most recent adventure set outside of faerun but still on toril i am aware of is one of the adventures included in "CANDLEKEEP MYSTERIES" in which from what i recall one of the adventures in that book is set near the shining south

oblique badge
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hmm

jagged apex
#

most likely if i had to guess, you may have to ask ed greenwood, since we know that after the deck of many thing wizards is supposedly not gunna pump out any new content until 2024, and latest info i could find came from his book "The Grand History of the Realms" at least in regards to Anchorome, and him being the original creator of the setting and regularly continues to work on the realms even if for his own games, if anyone likely was to have more recent, timeline wise, on those locations, it would probably be Ed

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so if we do get any published lore on those parts of toril, definitely not gunna be for a long time

#

especially with more recently aiming to explore the wider multiverse, and flesh it out just a little, really only returned to toril briefly so far with the more recent phandelver adventure

grim siren
#

Maztica is not a creation of Ed Greenwood but was made by Douglas Niles. The most recent refernce to Maztica is in Volo's Guide to Monsters when talking of the Tabaxi folk, and in the Tortle Package PDF.

Anchorome's last named appearance was in the 3rd edition FR guide and Grand Histories, very little information is provided. And the Scholar's view of Toril according to Ed is wildly inaccurate. Because its drawn from a faerunian perspective and has mentioned that Anchorome is actually a collection of islands.

jagged apex
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well i just learned 2 new things, neat, mainly the thing regarding the truth of anchorome and that maztica was not his creation, since was part of the forgotten realms in 2e from what i could find, i just kind of assumed even if it was added in retroactively like kara-tur

wise dirge
#

What’s the general lore on Firbolg? 👀

jagged apex
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according to monsters of the multiverse, their latest printing, "Distant cousins of giants, the first firbolgs wandered the primeval forests of the multiverse, and the magic of those forests entwined itself with the firbolgs’ souls. Centuries later, that magic still thrums inside a firbolg, even one who has never lived under the boughs of a great forest.
A firbolg’s magic is an obscuring sort, which allowed their ancestors to pass through a forest without disturbing it. So deep is the connection between a firbolg and the wild places of the world that they can communicate with flora and fauna.
Firbolgs can live up to 500 years."

#

but i am assuming by general lore you mean not anything tied to any one setting, thus why i quoted what we got in monsters of the multiverse

wise dirge
#

Oh that’s really cool! So they have a major connection to nature and magic and illusions from the vibe I’m getting

#

Very fey like

jagged apex
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yeah, literally the ones we are presented with in 5e are those who have been transformed by the feywilds or similar planes depending on the setting

wise dirge
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And yeah the not one setting lore is super helpful so I can incorporate them into homebrew settings!!

#

Gotcha gotcha

jagged apex
#

cuz historically in dnd if you stay on a plane of existance long enough, those energies begin to infuse and alter you

#

the ones not influenced in the feywild mainly live in a part of faerun that so far 5e has not touched on, so the fey touched ones are the only ones we have presented in 5e

unkempt merlin
#

Bigbys has more firbolg lore as well

jagged apex
#

and new examples, though some of the artwork had been replaced, but prior one of the examples was a pretty good midway point between the two kinds of fibolg

#

but the new ones lean more toward the fey touched ones

#

but basically their own society is more or less the opposite of the ordning that giants used, a democracy based on merit rather than one's birth or a strict hierarchy, least if memory serves, as i don't recall bigby's changing that

#

what we get in bigby's aside from the specific statblocks, which again is setting agnostic to my knowledge is mostly the same as MotM

#

"Distant cousins of giants, the first firbolgs wandered the primeval forests of the multiverse, and the magic of those forests entwined itself with the firbolgs’ souls. Ages later, that magic still thrums inside firbolgs.
Firbolgs are often drawn to the service or emulation of the gods Diancastra and Hiatea. Firbolgs’ innate magic of obscurement and trickery resonates with Diancastra’s wily resourcefulness. A traditional emphasis on community and harmony leads many firbolgs to pledge themselves to Hiatea’s service."

snow laurel
#

Is it reasonable to assume that all mortal creatures that live in the astral like neogi and psurlons have a similar life-cycle to the Githyanki; namely, they lay their eggs on the material plane and raise their young in "reality" where time is normal, then they bring them to the astral when they're adults?

jagged apex
#

no, as some cases exist where they are uneffected by the astral to a degree, like we know that the astral elves in 5e still live long like most elves and the nature of the astral plane just extends it

#

it is honestly, unless making up your own lore, worth checking to so what if anything is detailed in published material

#

like astral elves don't lay eggs at all

#

only safe bet is likely that the nature of the astral plane and it's relation to the flow of time is that it prolongs their lifespan proportionally

#

besides, the neogi often live more so in wildspace to my knowledge, which all though able to go from it to the astral see via spelljamming are not the same thing

snow laurel
jagged apex
#

plus the definition of what is and is not young for a species is largely influenced by their lifespans

#

but there are some mortal creatures historically that live in the astral and still age normally

snow laurel
#

5e has basically standardized aging, elves and humans and orcs alike all basically hit physical maturity around 18-20 iirc

jagged apex
#

so i still feel it it is largely a case by case thing and that viewing them all as doing more or less the same thing just in different ways is an oversimplificiation

snow laurel
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What's considered old varies, but not what's considered young

#

also what are those mortal creatures that still age in the astral? I was under the impression the astral not progressing time was a universal factor of the plane

unkempt merlin
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Elves have always physically matured like humans do (or close enough). It's just what them being culturally an adult is where they differ from humans

jagged apex
magic jackal
#

I would quibble about the word mentally considered an adult, so much as socially considered an adult.

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It's a cultural thing within certain settings, relating to the fading memories of Arvandor, as well as general worldly experience, I'd not consider that "mental" maturity, so much as it is social standards of adulthood based on different structures.

jagged apex
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point is, they are not considered an adult necessarily just cuz they seem like an adult by human standards or just physical body ages

magic jackal
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They'd be an Adult by human standards, mentally and physically, they wouldn't be an adult by elven standards culturally (though again, mentally and physically mature)

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Cultural standards for humans around adulthood line up generally with physical and mental maturity, elven society doesn't, that's the major difference.

jagged apex
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but again i also point to how in 5e, last time they were detailed, though technically legacy content, is established at least in the forgotten realms orcs become full adults at the age of 12, last i checked that has never been the case for humans

magic jackal
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Correct.

jagged apex
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though i find it funny that a orc can reasonably be 12 years old and have a beer and it would not be wierd at all, there is something about that which is just humerous to me XD

magic jackal
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Which actually presents an interesting cultural conundrum, they mature faster than humans do, so what part of human standards apply to orcs? Do human societies have an element of experience within their culture as a metric for adulthood? Would an Orc lacking that be grounds for them to be considered still children by human standards?

jagged apex
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depending on the setting, could range from a handful to none

magic jackal
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You could write a reasonably morally interesting element of a campaign around that, if you've got a bunch of humans fighting orcs and they suddenly realize most of the people they're fighting are twelve years old or so.

grim siren
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Given that a 35 year old Orc in Faerun was considered a Venerable Age Maturing at 12 is not off the table.

jagged apex
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like i could see some soldiers potentially being terrified that the thing that nearly beat them within an inch of their life and that they had to butcher was only only 12 years old, cuz likely some will not easily be able to separate the fact that different races age differently, they will just be stuck on the horrific out of context thought that "oh gods, i just killed a 12 year old!" and that could mess someone up mentally in a number of ways

unkempt merlin
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A lot of age listings in 5e were averages (and based on specific settings like the FR). Particularly for old age. Very few of the races listed actual age limits. As a result, a lot of them were what was culturally considered old, even if they were capable of living much older.

The only one I can recall that listed both was Kobold

grim siren
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I guess it would but then you have the Elves. When they kill a human do they fret over "Oh Corellon, I just killed someone before their second century."

jagged apex
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yeah, i have said it many times before and will say again, average is, well, average