#dnd-lore

1 messages · Page 18 of 1

iron saffron
snow sonnet
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thanks ^^

iron saffron
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Not all of them are in 5E.

snow sonnet
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thats fine lol

solid hare
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Can I say my characters lore in here or world lore

iron saffron
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This channel is for official D&D lore.

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Taps on channel's sign:

For discussion of the lore of the various official D&D settings. Wherever possible, please indicate which setting you're talking about, eg [Forgotten Realms]/[FR], [Eberron], [Dragonlance], etc

hazy fox
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Also on Planescape...I think I wouldn't be surprised that Morte would be narrator.
Planescape Torment being the only one MOST would know about the setting.
(Any mentions about Homer Simpson voiced Modron, and "Updating my Journal" guy?)

pale stump
runic totem
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Is random murder illegal in Avernus unless it's a demon

white ravine
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Nope. Go wild.

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Well...sort of.

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Murdering your fellow devil is less treated as murder and more seen as treason.

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Getting your fellow devil killed however is just another casualty

calm crest
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Bonus points if you frame a rival for it.

storm dagger
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Superiors are largely able to punish subordinates under them how they please however

hazy mica
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Is there any monster or class or diety that focuses on portals and teleportation

iron saffron
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Can you be more specific because it would be a generic yes.

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If you're asking about a god then which campaign setting?

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If you're asking about a class then which edition?

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Shaundakul was the Faerunian god of travel, exploration, and portals (he disappeared during the Spellplague).

hazy mica
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Tbh I don’t know any more

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Lore

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This is mostly for a self made campaign and I was just curious (fifth edition tho)

iron saffron
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Well, this channel is about official campaign settings' lore. Your question needs to be more specific if you want a specific answer because there are a lot of official settings.

hazy mica
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Oh my apologies

white ravine
gray ember
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Getting a job in this universe as a human must be a complete nightmare

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“Must have at least 200 years experience” at the tavern

eager bay
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Do any D&D settings rework races significantly?

iron saffron
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Eberron and definitely Dark Sun.

unkempt merlin
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Eberron doesn't particularly rework races

eager bay
iron saffron
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More like Mad Max...

eager bay
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"It is by my hand that you will rise from the ashes of this world!"

young prawn
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More like borderlands?

eager bay
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I think a D&D Dune campaign would be dope

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The Spice must F L O W

magic jackal
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I don't think that would be suitable for D&D there's already at least a couple Dune ttrpgs I'm fairly sure

crude blaze
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The official Dune TTRPG is great on its own, I personally don’t think it needs to be shoehorned into D&D

eager bay
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fair

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There's a The Dying Earth tRPG too, that'd be fun

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Harken back to when real men did Vancian magic

unkempt merlin
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vancian wasn't particularly superior to inferior to what 5e does. and what 5e does is still fairly close to vancian in the first place. no need to put weird sexism into it

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but this is the channel for dnd lore. if you want to discuss lore of non dnd games or settings, this isn't the place for it

eager bay
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kk

hallow sand
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So, I'm trying to decide where to put my homebrew city in Faerun. It's a magical city that's been around for a hundred years but hidden by magical means - the people within are part of a society made to keep the planes aligned. I don't know a whole lot of lore outside of the sword coast, so I was hoping to defer to the experts on this. Where would you put this city and why?

quartz cradle
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not sure if anyone would know this but--one of my players wrote into their backstory that their PC (who used to be an experienced adventurer 100+ years ago, retired, and was now pulled back in) fought a cult of fraz-urb'luu. I know from his blurb in MotM that he has a legendary staff of power that he seeks, which was broken into several pieces. I was thinking my party might find one of those pieces. would there be any sort of identifying features that would make it so this PC could recognize whose staff (piece) it is? like, would it have a sort of magical fingerprint or symbol or runes or something showing that this ain't just a regular old rod of beguiling and that it's part of fraz's staff?

forest sundial
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is there a difference between outer space, and the astral plane? I'm trying to make a subclass based on gravity and stuff

sharp owl
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What do you mean by 'outer space' specifically?

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If you mean interplanetary space, then yes there's a difference. If you mean interstellar space, then then no they're the same thing

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A wildspace system consists of a sun and one or more worlds orbiting that sun. This area is similar to what we call space; no gravity, no air, etc
Once you reach the edge of a wildspace system, it begins to transition to the astral sea

lilac oracle
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Does anyone know If gemstone dragons exist in the dragon lance/krynn universe

sharp owl
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They don't

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It's only metallic and chromatic

lilac oracle
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Fair enough ty

white ravine
iron saffron
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If you saw the Dr. Strange movie, the Astral Plane is the out of body experience he has (astral projection of his soul to another plane of existence).

crude blaze
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Wouldn’t that be closer to the Ethereal Plane as far as D&D goes?

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Or at the very least the Border Ethereal?

white ravine
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Ethereal plane is the land of ghosts and illusions yes, but thats more actual dead people compared to the astral plane which is the higher state of being type of place

iron saffron
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Dr. Strange uses astral projection (both in the comics and in the movie).

The Astral Plane is a transitional plane that connects the Material Plane to the Outer Planes. (I hated WotC using the Astral Sea for 5E Spelljammer)

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You can think of the Etheral Plane as an "out of phase" plane that co-exists with the Material Plane (there was an episode on ST:TNG where Geordi and Ensign Ro were out of phase with the rest of the Enterprise and were essentially ghosts).

crude blaze
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Yeah, my point was mostly that it doesn’t completely translate between D&D and Doctor Strange. What happens in Doctor Strange can just as easily be considered in D&D as astral projection or etherealness, regardless of what it’s called in the movie.

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Well, actually

iron saffron
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I was using that analogy as a means to illustrate to the OP what the Astral Plane would be like.

crude blaze
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Nvm, just remembered that etherealness isn’t the person leaving the body.

jagged apex
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one thing i noticed is that the demon lord pazuzu went from being size medium to size large last time we saw him in 3e and 4e respectively, does anyone know of any statements from writers or in universe lore that explains this otherwise odd change in size?

iron saffron
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Nope. WotC seems to change sizes on a whim. The barlgura demons were Medium size since 1E AD&D but were changed to Large size in 5E.

jagged apex
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if he were to ever appear in 5e which size category would they likely make him? cuz if they went with the 4e large probably attribute it to some sort of boost in power

iron saffron
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¯_(ツ)_/¯

unkempt merlin
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Based on his appearance in the Minsc and Boo book, he is Large still

jagged apex
white ravine
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Yeah, hes like...12-14 feet tall iirc? Sufficiently large

magic jackal
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large, and one might even say, in charge.

jagged apex
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also in regards to pazuzu i think it would be neat if we later learned of demons lords that in a similar manner also were lords of evil creatures that burrow and of evil creatures that burrow, or something like that. Cuz him being lord of all evil creatures makes me assume that the implication is there are likely lords that claim to be lords over all evil creatures that mainly move in a unique way such as like at least swimming, and we probably just don't know since far as i am aware dnd has yet to reveal such beings. Like far as i know dagon who you would expect to be maybe for all that swim, has no such title or name to himself in the same vain, like i doubt i am the only one that could be thinking this, but will be surprised if i am

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like it seems so odd, in an interesting way, for out of all the demon lords, be they tanari or obyrith, he is the only one to claim dominion over such a broad umbrella of things

iron saffron
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No offense but that wall of text would be easier to parse if it had proper sentences and paragraphs instead of one run-on sentence.

jagged apex
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sorry, tried to fix it up, but i sometimes just tend to ramble a bit if i get too "into" a topic or something i really am interested in

iron saffron
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I tried reading it three times and it's not coherent of what you're trying to say.

jagged apex
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that is another bad habit of mine, i tend to not always word things the best especially when i am activly trying to be clear in what i am trying to say

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been trying to fix it, but has been very hard to do and am not sure i have made much if any progress in doing so

iron saffron
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You can check out the Demonomicon from earlier editions as well as Planescape books that deal with fiends, such as Faces of Evil: The Fiends if you want to know about demons.

calm crest
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I’m pretty sure Demogorgon is roughly in charge of evil swimming creatures: “Tanar’ri Prince and Lord of All that Swims in Darkness.”

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Not sure about burrowing ones.

jagged apex
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huh, did not realize he had that title, guess that is what i get for not reading the novels and not checking his wiki page in a long while

calm crest
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I’m assuming it’s due to the ixitxachitl connection.

jagged apex
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well the title is cited as being from the stand alone novel "the glass prison", but the merrow could be another such one and i think some sahaguin might also have defected to his faith

calm crest
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He’s also an ally of Dagon and worshipped by kuo-toa, and has an aquatic realm full of sea monsters.

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Ugudenk may be the closest thing to a demon lord of burrowers.

jagged apex
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or if not limiting to the same verbage could be if there is a "lord of all evils below the earth" or something like that

calm crest
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Ugudenk is the lord of worms, dwells on a layer composed of tunnels, and causes victims to be afraid of the ground and what might emerge from it.

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Also possesses the ability to burrow between Abyssal layers.

jagged apex
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neat

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yeah i guess he fits unless we got someone else that actually has a title that implies such things as apparently that dude has not been used since 3e days at least to getting stats or that and only has the title/alias "The Squirming King"

calm crest
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Ugudenk really only appears in one ’zine.

jagged apex
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explains why he is so obscure, even for an obyrith

foggy seal
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Are succubi/incubi demons or devils or yugoloths or just something else?

iron saffron
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Yes.

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They were originally demons from 1E to 3E but then in 4E they became devils. Now in 5E they're "freelancers" to the Blood War (not specifically yugoloths though), so they can be still found among devils and demons.

Malcanthet is the self declard queen of the succubi. She is mentioned in 5E, specifically the recent Drizzt book where she is still a demon lord but works for Asmodeus.

jagged apex
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basically they have been each and basically in 5e are since their own kind of fiend that can be devil, demon, or any other of the lower planes

jagged apex
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so if she is doing stuff that is against asmodeus' wants, depending how you view the purpose of the devils and the bloodwar, her logic basically is gunna probably make it seem to her that is logical and reasonable and is for asmodeus, even if it her just lying to herself

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though can't find, at least not on the forgotten realms wiki, how she became a demon lord, just that her history had her living in the nine hells as a personal envoy of asmodeus in 1484DR and then 3 years later wound up trapped in a gemstone for a time and the other stuff involving her in the book "Hero" for the homecoming trilogy of drizzt books occurred in where last we hear she returns to the abyss

eager bay
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Which settings would constitute "vanilla" D&D? Forgotten Realms for sure

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Greyhawk as well

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Mystara maybe?

unkempt merlin
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no such thing as "vanilla" dnd is the tldr

eager bay
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Good point

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But there be settings that very much are not the norm

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Eberron, Dark Sun, etc.

magic jackal
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I guess by "vanilla" D&D you mean closer to the archetype of traditional high fantasy?

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Assuming that to be the case, Greyhawk, Forgotten Realms, Mystara, Dragonlance probably too

jagged apex
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for crying out loud the froghemoth was first introduced in a crashed spaceship or in dnd terms a spelljammer i guess, and an old greyhawk god was a freaking cowboy complete with a gun

magic jackal
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I'm not talking about sci fi elements in particular settings

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I'm talking about what most people think of when they think of D&D

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and most people do not think spelljammer, most people think traditional high fantasy

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and consequently, while a few of those settings include sci fi elements, they're predominantly still traditional high fantasy vibes

calm crest
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Like Mystara’s nuclear reactors.

magic jackal
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does it really have those? I'm not super familiar with Mystara

calm crest
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Yep, they’re in Glantri.

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They are basically used as magical devices and are connected to Stephen Amber’s secret deific identity.

unkempt merlin
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Mystara, Greyhawk, Exandria, Forgotten Realms, Dragonlance, among others, are all a flavor of "traditional" high fantasy

jagged apex
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also advanced tech and potent magic are near indestiguishable, just look at the illithid, especially those of thoon

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dnd tech is just different than ours cuz in dnd lore, earth is a massive dead magic zone, but worlds with magic, root their tech in magic more often than not, that is something seen if you have watched lore videos or read about the old artificers that literally kidnapped people from earth and enslaved them

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the misconception that dnd is just medieval fantasy or just fantasy, is annoying to me and ticks me off, really wish people would not be soo rooted into to where it is so hard for some to accept even when the evidence is literally there and not anything new is why i don't like it when some people try to say artificers don't fit in dnd, cuz it is just objectively not true

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is like starwars, there is tech and mystisim/magic, is just starwars has the sci-fi elements more obvious where as dnd has the fantasy elements more obvious

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but anyways, no one setting really is but basically any of the named published settings that were mentioned earlier are all basically equally "vanilla dnd" if using their default published lore

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so basically, if it is a setting in the cosmology, basically what is one that in the 5e cosmology in in it's own wild space, it counts

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though exandria might not, cuz that is a bit iffy, at least as i understand it since the world setting was originally, from what i am told ment for a pathfinder game that later switched to dnd, and while pathfinder did split off from dnd in 3e, is likely different enough that may not quite be "vanilla dnd"

unborn fable
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is there a diety that looks favorably upon acts that force change, somtimes strife. Deceit, non direct means of killing and opprotunists?

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id take demon or devil as well

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just a somewhat divine being that would be interested in the above

jagged apex
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assuming you mean deity, basically any from the tyranny domain in 3.5e probably, and tiamat is not only that but also historically one of strife

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so as long as serving her name, i'd say she is valid, at least in the forgotten realms setting

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so while she would look favorably upon such things, it would have to be to her liking and will would be the catch

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as those in the change domain historically, at least in the forgotten realms are both chaotic good

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but the deceit, strife, and being opportunistic, seems tiamat if any in the forgotten realms would be the best choice out of existing deities, other settings i'd have to check unless those more knowledgeable of other settings and their gods would be willing to speak up

eager bay
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Greyhawk and FR are obvious, iffy on the others

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but you know, Mystara is super underrated imo

iron saffron
unborn fable
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Faerun, I think baldurs gate is on the map

jagged apex
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yeah, so the forgotten realms

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as i mentioned in my opinion, tiamat would be a good pick

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though cyric is also a god of strife at least back in the days where that domain was thing in published materials, as is lolth

magic jackal
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Shar perhaps

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Or Mask

jagged apex
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neither are really any more a fit than the 3 i listed, arguably are less so as shar is more so night and darkness and mask is specially of shadows and thieves

magic jackal
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I'm not trying to argue with you, I'm trying to suggest more options for the fella lmao in case one of them strikes his fancy

jagged apex
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well neither of the two you suggested, far as i am aware, would even fit what he is looking for, so i am just saying they seem like odd suggestions

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you know, outside of very specific situations and context

magic jackal
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K. I was looking at Gods who supported deceit and indirect means of killing, and opportunism, who were also chaotic, or support chaotic influences.

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Of the ones I looked at, those seemed to fit the most.

calm crest
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I’m partial to Fraz-Urb’luu if you’re focusing on the deceit part.

magic jackal
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Good suggestion, he is a Demon Prince of Deception

unborn fable
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so take aways are Mask, Shar, Tiamat. With Tiamat being the one who would most likely enjoy the entertainment

jagged apex
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if in that regard i'd go with cyric, dude is literally faerun's god of lies

unborn fable
magic jackal
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The Demon Prince of Deception

jagged apex
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who even falls for his own lies sometimes XD

unborn fable
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uhhh yes that would fit my build, ive been collecting blood for profit

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if i can rules lawyer him even better

jagged apex
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also, despite his claim, fraz is surprisingly bulky and buff

calm crest
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He was one of the more powerful Demon Lords until his rivals ganged up on and stole the staff that granted him most of his power. He’s been rebuilding power for some time to make a comeback.

magic jackal
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For what reason are you looking into gods or powerful entities like this?

jagged apex
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rules, with a demon? let alone a demon prince? laughs histerically

calm crest
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I feel like he’s one of the more lawfully minded demons.

unborn fable
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I wish to bargain

eager bay
magic jackal
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I read you, just don't have anything else to add

jagged apex
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then go with tiamat, while she is also chaotic, she is also lawful and basically an honorary devil as she dwells in the nine hells

magic jackal
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Gods don't usually "bargain" with mortals either tho

jagged apex
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or at least one of the options that is of a lawful kind, but definitely not a demon, demons will force or lie to you, devils will at least not do that, but use confusing legaleze

magic jackal
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So you'd be looking for something a little weaker than a God, so yeah I imagine Fraz still fits the bill.

calm crest
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I figure Fraz might be a better option than a deity to negotiate with since he’s a bit desperate to return to his former glory.

unborn fable
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im actively positioning myself to be in a bargaining position, but tiamat seems more accepting

magic jackal
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Eh. That seems a stretch

unborn fable
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i would almost need a chaotic to do it for the lolz

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i wish to bargain for ascension almost strahd style

jagged apex
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one of the fun things about tiamat is she is both chaotic evil and lawful evil, since she embodies all evil dragons

unborn fable
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i will roll there at once

jagged apex
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if you wanna acsend to god hood in the realms you need followers, even more hard now a days as Lord Ao has to approve you, unless you wanna just murder a god and take their place, but the best tool for a mortal to use to do that is currently buried and busy clogging up the heart a primordial, named Borem's heart

calm crest
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5e continuity made Strahd’s transformation a bargain with the Dark Powers.

jagged apex
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though is still a double edged sword and just as much a punishement

magic jackal
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sure, but it established you can bargain with the dark powers

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which is the point in question here

jagged apex
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so yeah, not ideal unless you wanna be trapped in your own personal hell being used as a glorified batter for vauge powers

magic jackal
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well if you wanna "ascend Strahd style"

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that's what you get

jagged apex
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yeah, but i was under the impression they likely just misunderstood strahd's status and power

calm crest
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Arguably a more successful means of ascension than Kalid-Ma or Kalak.

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Didn’t go great for Dregoth, either, really.

unborn fable
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Ascension would be the goal yes

jagged apex
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well could argue though it was by accident, Karsus, historically technically achieved it and thes days is more of a great old one, a entity that is paradoxical all most, as in his brief time as a god during his folly, he was given the portfolio of huberous, as his massive stoned body fell along with his city he tried so hard to save

jagged apex
# unborn fable Ascension would be the goal yes

if you don't mind screwing the planet over, i still would say your best bet would be to get the jathiman dagger and then just walk up to a god, murder them, and take their place, as long as it is not of the ones who Ao has basically made the existance of mandatory like bahamut

calm crest
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Karsus definitely achieved more than any of my Athasian examples. Granted, those’re all higher power-free ascensions, being Athas and all.

jagged apex
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or could try to do what cyric and the other formal mortals turned gods did in their times

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karsus is basically a cosmic cautionary tale of huberous and ego, no matter how much of a prodigy you are, you can still screw up, massively

calm crest
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Pazuzu, wish granter that he is, might be willing to assist with ascension—I’m sure you wouldn’t like the strings attached, though.

jagged apex
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like i'd say picking the only objectively "wrong" target among the gods with your spell to swap places with a god for a time to stop a war as fast as possible is about as bad as a magic user could screw up

jagged apex
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so might go with pazuzu if you don't plan on dying or don't care about your soul

calm crest
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Mephistopheles or Asmodeus might be willing to make similar deals.

jagged apex
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asmodeus will play you like a fiddle and mephistopheles will probably be willing to do it cuz you did not mistake him for asmodeus like so many of his worshipers tend to do XD which asmodeus finds halarious XD

magic jackal
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More likely Asmodeus would manipulate another Archdevil into doing it and oversee it so he gains from it.

calm crest
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True.

magic jackal
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But ye could def happen

eager bay
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You think any of the standard races could've been products of evolution?

jagged apex
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or he'd otherwise use a proxy of some sort of a seamingly weak devil that you would feel like you had the edge over

magic jackal
eager bay
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Or soft creationism (evolved but have influence by these "gods") at least

magic jackal
iron saffron
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D&D is very creationist. Gods created the sentient/sapient creatures in their image.

eager bay
jagged apex
calm crest
eager bay
iron saffron
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Evolution isn't really a thing in D&D — either gods created creatures, some mad wizard did it, or they came from another dimension or world.

jagged apex
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why not, his avatar is basically a fictional personal and basically illusion, the real him nobody ever sees, and those that do, he eats slowly and fully aware of what is going on around them, according to the serpent of law origin

iron saffron
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And you have ask this question before many times.

jagged apex
magic jackal
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Which means in universe evolution is considered to be an at least theoretical concept.

calm crest
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Most changes over time in a species in like Mystara for example are by direct meddling from Immortals (the Immortal of dwarves made them more radiation-resistant after there was a nuclear explosion else where in the Known World).

iron saffron
jagged apex
iron saffron
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Yes, I know of the dragon lineage.

jagged apex
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so if any evolution i feel you should look to the proto dragons, but many races are created by gods

eager bay
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BUT

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BUT

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You could go for the route that the Shannara Chronicles took

jagged apex
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but again, since in dnd magic is a fundimental part of the universe just like gravity, time, ect... so it would not quite be evolution as we know it, much like tech is

magic jackal
eager bay
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Hard creationism is like in the Bible or Tolkien

iron saffron
jagged apex
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yeah that is what i said, sounds like this stuff is something they should be asking in there

iron saffron
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You're not asking about specific setting lore and I rather not talk about Biblical creationism.

jagged apex
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yeah seems clear you are wanting help with your own setting or cosmology, which is drastically different from what this channel is ment for

eager bay
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kk

iron saffron
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Toril has the Creature Races, which were the original five species when Abeir-Toril came to be. They were the Sarrukh (reptilian), Batrachi (amphibious), Aearee (avian), the fey, and humans (pre-modern homo sapien humans).
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Creator_race

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If anything humans did evolve on Toril as they had no one creator gods like other sentient/sapient humanoids races.

jagged apex
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good point, i forgot humans, i just instantly for some reason went to the proto-dragons

calm crest
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The Creator Race fey possibly being leShay.

jagged apex
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far as i know, they would just be one of many as far as i know they are just generally reffered to as the fey rather than a specific race/species of fey

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but they are one of the oldest, so seems like a viable theory

calm crest
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Hence possibly.

Some scholars believed that the leShay were one of the creator races.

jagged apex
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a fun bit of lore is that some orcs are basically aliens, since they came from another world via portals XD

iron saffron
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Yes, orcs are not native to Toril. They came from another world via portals. (Blizzard "borrowed" this idea for Warcraft)

calm crest
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The various lower-magic parallel-Oerths may have evolution in all likelihood.

jagged apex
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actually they are, just one specific kind is, the others were aliens

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i forget which though, cuz there are both grey and green skinned orcs

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if memory serves the grey ones are the mountain orcs, but i otherwise still remember which are technically the aliens

iron saffron
jagged apex
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also my bad grey and mountain orcs are 2 diffenent kinds, but the grey are the ones that came via Imaskari portals in the orcgate wars

jagged apex
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wonder if any straight up crash landed a spelljammer, cuz we know they exist in other worlds in forgotten realms, including one where they are the reasonable and not violent race, forget which planet it is off the top of my head

iron saffron
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They're not native to Toril but came from a homeworld.

calm crest
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Laterre and Gothic Earth are also D&D settings that have evolution. Athas seems to sort of have evolution given that there are no higher powers, but definitely has bio-engineering, which complicates things.

jagged apex
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and earth is also a canon location in the dnd multiverse, not our reality, but is basically a version of our earth, and is basically a massive dead magic zone, hence why we don't have magic on earth that is real at least these days, like cannonically Ed greenwood and Elminster and other scholars, mainly mordenkainen, have hung out before and exchanged notes on things

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basically in universe Ed writes about their worlds and makes money off it by selling it to wizards of the coast, is a funny bit of meta

calm crest
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And all the Boot Hill and Top Secret crossovers set on Earth from older material.

jagged apex
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would be next level too if like every holloween Ed went as elminster and just chilled on a bench in yellowstone and drank a beer XD

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also, apparently Elminster buys earth german beer to sell to his friends, wonder how he got the monkey or if the clerk just happen to be willing to accept the gold coins/dragons he probably had on him?

#

that guy

#

and since he has it set to a specific time period in earths' past, i wonder if that means he could potentially do this as a thing on the side and effectively only have to pay for the 1 beer, you know basically bringing earth beer to toril and sell for a profit?

harsh zenith
#

@cinder dove Duergar lore for what setting? if it's FR then use the wiki

#

if you want more than this check out the sources in the Further Reading section

cinder dove
#

So Mindflayers slaved the Duregar and then they broke free of their enslavement leaving behind their psionic abilites? (havent read all of it yet)

harsh zenith
#

well I haven't read any of it so you're ahead of me. sounds right, the mindflayers enslave lots of people who then go on to become free. you should probably just read it instead of asking about it if you're going to read it anyways

eager bay
#

Any difference between the grey and green orcs?

obsidian gate
#

Forgotten Realms Grey orcs are supposed to be more "civilized" than the green ones. A lot of that lore is a bit questionable imo, but thats what we got

white ravine
eager bay
#

I guess?

eager bay
unkempt merlin
#

This isn't the channel for making up lore like that

eager bay
#

kk

obsidian gate
#

orogs are just the decendants of mountain orcs who went into the underdark a few thousand years ago, They are supposedly more light sensitive and tend to be better armed/trained than their surface cousins

#

grey orcs are from a different world and came to Toril a lot later than green orcs

modest badger
#

Also forgotten realm orcs are grey, but not all grey orcs are 'Grey Orcs'

jagged apex
#

which will likely give you what you may wish to know about orcs in the forgotten realms, but the grey orcs are nomadic and largely live in an area that is not the area where 5e focuses heavily on it's content for the forgotten realms and faerun

jagged apex
obsidian gate
jagged apex
#

but their trade off is quote "orogs were extremely sensitive to bright light, which could not only blind them but also weaken them and cause severe blistering."

#

and the 5e artwork is kind of a more bluish grey, with larger ears, large pale eyes, and taloned claws

#

also orc genes are so strong most half-orcs are viewed no different from pureblood orcs, being accepted in orc tribes often and more grimly in some parts of northern faerun are killed on sight out of fear like any actually full blooded orc

#

so in dnd if you have an orc relative, at least genetically, you are definitely gunna be able to tell, especially if it is super close like say a parent

#

but yeah, green and grey orcs basically differ largely in what world they are from, with those being grey and actually belonging to the classification known as grey orcs, are more civil and less savage than most other kinds of orcs in dnd, with special cases like the orcs of the planet Chandos, in the forgotten realms setting https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Chandos#Inhabitants

unkempt merlin
jagged apex
#

obviously take his vids with a grain of salt but a lot of it, although not cited is published info that you can understand by watching, will not deny there are better sources if you wanna be able to check their sources but it was the first such vid i could find on the topic and is only 3 years old, vs others like AJ pickett's which is 5 years old and may have some outdated info potentially

#

but i feel rhexx's vid can at least give you the general idea of how orcs exist in dnd in general, especially the forgotten realms even if he may not be the most clean and pure source or do that good a job of citing his sources, like it gets the job done, but is far from perfect (if making your own setting anyways, i feel it at least could not hurt to watch at least once)

#

and i think last i checked despite asking their questions in this chat, bernadetta i think is trying to make their own dnd setting and may just wanna know the norm to see where they wanna deviate or where they could just rip and leave as is

#

but that would be getting a bit off topic

jagged apex
#

so at least half their stomping grounds have been explored, but only via AL which in my opinion is not that enticing or interesting since the rules of such plays very much limits what content you can use to like a limited number of books, so those AL adventures and their content are potentially more obscure

obsidian gate
#

I mean, nothing is stopping you from running AL adventures or stealing their content for your home games

jagged apex
#

fair, though to my knowledge they are hard to access unless you buy them via dms guild or the like, though i have a hard time finding games to play published stuff like adventures, so most games in my experience tend to be homebrew, but i digress as this is getting off topic

eager bay
calm crest
#

The Old Ones presumably created it.

eager bay
#

And the existence of the Hollow World also imply that the planet be billions of years old like our own Earth

eager bay
calm crest
#

The beings that existed prior to the current batch of Immortals. Basically they are as to Immortals as the Immortals are to mortals.

unkempt merlin
eager bay
eager bay
#

Is there any in-universe justification for the technological stasis of a lot of settings?

unkempt merlin
#

As discussed previously, it's not as stagnant as you seem to think

calm crest
#

In some settings specific technologies are prohibited, but not as a general rule. Mystaran technology comes and goes as civilizations collapsed over the course of 7000 years or so.

static oracle
#

Off topic but I really hope that Shameshka gets a prominent role in the planescape adventure

eager bay
eager bay
storm dagger
upbeat forum
eager bay
#

Yeah, figured

#

the existence of magic make progress in conventional tech redundant

upbeat forum
#

But what kind of tech can‘t be replaced with magic?

magic jackal
#

Do note that in a lot of those settings, many people can't use magic, meaning technological progress is not superfluous for driving society as a whole, because it's useable by everyone, and significantly more inexpensive to manufacture.

#

Which handily explains why, despite magic being prevalent in many of those settings, the civilizations in those settings have advanced to a certain stage of technological development, which they wouldn't normally have if magic were truly capable of satisfying every conceivable need on the level of an entire society.

#

Not to mention, I think people have this idea that technology and magic are fundamentally opposed, or separate, which is really untrue?

#

And furthermore, magical progress may improve technological progress, and vice versa

eager bay
magic jackal
#

Even in high magic, people still innovate technologically

#

Hell even in wide magic, which is often conflated with high magic but is not the same, technology can absolutely still be innovated without losing realism, it just changes how the innovations work.

#

Case in point, Eberron.

severe stump
#

I could use a hand. Is there a famous artificer in the Forgotten Realms lore? I'd like to use their name for something.

eager bay
upbeat forum
#

I got a question too (campaign setting: Fareûn from the forgotten realms): One of my players made a character who believes in a giant worm that lives under the ground and that one must sacrifice stuff to the worm to keep it satisfied, otherwise it will emerge from the ground and destroy everyone and everything. He left it to me, the dm, to decide whenever the worm actually exists or if it‘s just a false believe. Now I‘d like to make something in between: The worm doesn‘t exactly exists as described, but the records of it aren‘t entirely false either, so that there is at least some sort of a monster/worm in the ground. Now my question: How could I make this fit into forgotten-realms-lore? Is there some monster under the ground of fareûn that only few know about, but those who do fear that it one day will emerge from the ground? If not, what‘s the closest thing to it?

eager bay
#

or like whether it's a Wizard/Muggle divide or a Harry/Hermione

#

@upbeat forum How common do you see magic-users being in a setting where the tech level be late 19th to early 20th century levels?

ionic rivet
#

The user just participated in the conversation just minutes ago - I really don't think they need a ping. Maybe in an hour or two and picking the conversation back up a ping would feel appropriate.

#

But under 10 minutes? Pinging seems unnecessary to me.

eager bay
#

kk

calm crest
storm dagger
unkempt merlin
magic jackal
#

my point being that it's virtually indistinguishable, because the process by which they're researched, progressed, developed etc. are comparable.

#

if it talks like a duck, walks like a duck, etc.

unkempt merlin
#

sufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from tech? I don't think thats the quote...

magic jackal
#

I think it's the opposite? 🤔

#

but either way

eager bay
unkempt merlin
#

no. i know what the actual quote is (its not analyzed), and its "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic"

#

the main thing in eberron is that it very explicitly isn't tech at all. Magic is just treated as a science more regularly in setting than other settings do it. But other settings do treat magic as a science quite often (ie: most wizards), its just that its a more recognized thing in eberron

jagged apex
#

and even then the availability of such things is varied from setting to setting, which is why firearms default prices are a couple hundred gold pieces just for a pistol

unkempt merlin
#

That's another side of it yes. In many settings (aka most settings) the timeline of "societal advancements" is very anachronistic compared to real life simply because... it's not real life

jagged apex
#

like toril's present day technology is comparable to earth's industrial revolution last i heard any comparison between the 2

#

so that can help you at least guess what the timeline will potentially be like between the 2 worlds in that regard, is harder with other worlds as we don't often get comparisons of them to our own earth

jagged apex
#

and in this sense tech is no different from magic items, things that beings make via the means they know how, in this context is what i mean

unkempt merlin
#

There is also the fact that in terms of technological advancement irl it was a lot of very minor improvements to day to day things for the majority of human history. It's only the last ~200ish years where tech began "rapidly" advancing. And that's due to societal pressures and whatnot. A lot of settings obviously don't have anywhere near the same pressures.

jagged apex
#

some people using the term magic tech likely is cuz without the word magic people likely get the wrong picture when you talk about tech in dnd

unkempt merlin
#

Because magic is super common. One of the themes of the setting is literally magic instead of technology. So pure technology is seen novel in a variety of ways

jagged apex
# unkempt merlin There is also the fact that in terms of technological advancement irl it was a l...

plus on worlds like toril, gods are really and many and is not something that you can easily deny without out right being willfully ingerant, and some people after the last great advanced empire of magic, netheril, fell from the sky, they took it as a warning in the extreme and there are factions that actively work to try to keep magical tech development from reaching those same levels again, fearing it would just anger the gods or otherwise end the same

jagged apex
#

like just cuz of the different basics it makes what we would consider a simple thing seem amazing and i just find that halarious XD

unkempt merlin
#

They have printing presses. Like, real life traditional printing presses

jagged apex
#

yeah i know they probably do but back then i don't think they did, idk is an example i heard that i am trying to recall from memory so i could be recalling some things wrong

#

like that elevator thing is the one example i vaugely remember

#

but my point remains about how those differences in the basics of our technologies between earth and other settings with magic i still find halarious

#

like otherwise i don't know how to say the part i find funny, so i hope you are at least getting the gist of what i mean even if i am potentially misremembering some details

iron saffron
#

Why bother with steam/coal tech when you have magic that can achieve more and less polluted?

#

The printing press is not an industrial revolution era technology. The Chinese invented it over 2000 years ago.

magic jackal
iron saffron
#

Yup, he wants to control the monopoly.

magic jackal
#

and the reason to bother with it is because not everyone can use magic

iron saffron
#

Gond: "No gunpowder for you!"

magic jackal
#

"Here have this smokepowder instead!"

white ravine
#

Deific conglomerate approved blasting powder

jagged apex
#

the industrial thing was a rough estimation i recalled cuz i could not recall the exact year until digging up that video

unkempt merlin
#

Year =/= tech level whatsoever

jagged apex
#

well double checking the year and the year of the revolution, my comparison was a bit of an over estimate, but after digging up the actual year, you know what tech level in earth tech is comparable to that time on toril, so they are a bit shy from that, but either way the video i linked explains it much better than i do

white ravine
#

Especially in DND's time, where you have knights and chivalry mixed in with literal lasguns

iron saffron
#

Artificers are magic-tech rather than tech-tech.

unkempt merlin
jagged apex
#

and odds are that there is more advanced stuff on lantan we have not been made aware of

unkempt merlin
iron saffron
#

As I mentioned earlier, the Chinese were hundreds of years ahead of the rest of the world tech-wise, so saying this year in Earth doesn't mean much...

jagged apex
unkempt merlin
#

im aware of what the vid says

jagged apex
#

plus i am only just now rewatching it, so prior most of this i had been pulling from memory, or trying to at least

eager bay
#

Though, come to think of it, Toril might end up getting a technological advancement or two if they find Earth on accident

#

You know

#

our Earth

jagged apex
#

assuming they are not thrown right back into a dark age once they finish the current ending of it, i'd imagine toril will eventually start developing things simialr to the lightning rails of eberron and the like

jagged apex
#

that is largely an estetic thing

eager bay
#

Oh

jagged apex
#

especially faerun and the sword coast

#

most of the stuff like laser pistols is in the hands of other parts of the world or deep underground with the illithid

#

granted it has elements of those medieval and renaissance ideas, but is not limited to them

jagged apex
eager bay
#

Mhm, including Ed Greenwood himself

jagged apex
#

they litterally kidnapped people and enslaved them, is how the egyptian gods came to toril and why you see them in published materials in those older editions

eager bay
#

Did they do that with other peoples like the Greco-Romans?

jagged apex
#

is a fictional world so obviously it can't be our reality, but they long since have found earth

jagged apex
#

or at the very least they appear to be romans

iron saffron
#

AD&D illustrations of heroes tend to be more on the realistic side in terms of their armour and weapons. Later editions the weapons and armours became more fantastical

eager bay
iron saffron
#

If you look at the very early D&D illustrations it was inspired by the wargames D&D derived from. The PCs back then were superheroes but rather they were often depicted as fleeing/scared of the monsters they encountered.

jagged apex
#

definitely don't want the demon prince of wrath mad at you, will not end well more likely than not XD

#

i hope canonically he got freed from his prison, he seems neat conceptually and would be fun to see him make a cameo in the upcoming bigby book of giants

iron saffron
#

I doubt we'll see any updates in 5E since there probably won't be another Hell-related adventure and WotC has pretty much avoided novels and comics to expand the lore.

jagged apex
#

does not need to be, he already was in one, is just weather or not the canon timeline they use when writing future publishings will have him freed and back in the abyss or else where

jagged apex
#

just checked the end of his history section, he did canonically get free

iron saffron
#

¯_(ツ)_/¯

jagged apex
#

cited from "The Harrowing of Hell (DDAL-DRW08) (PDF). D&D Adventurers League: Dreams of the Red Wizards (Wizards of the Coast), p. 12."

#

"Some time after the Year of Three Ships Sailing, 1492 DR, Kostchtchie was freed from his infernal prison on Avernus. His prison was repurposed to hold captive the soul of a powerful giant king"

#

guess that also gives them the perfect spot to introduce a new giant king of great power if they want in the future since is vauge other than the facts that they are powerful and a king

iron saffron
jagged apex
#

well it was as i recall given more of a range than a single set date, so could be why the years differ

#

either way i am just glad he got free in time for the new giants book, would be a shame if a demon lord so heavily associated with a type of giant didn't get to have their own warped giants by demogorgon did, that would probably bring the prince of wrath's rage to whole new level XD

#

would have at least been a missed opportunity in my mind and will be a bit sad for the big angry boy if he winds up not having one, like of all the demon lords he makes the most sense to have one with those kind of giants that we know they will be introducing from the shared artwork, and on twitter concept art, for the demogorgon one that was previously an ettin

unborn fable
#

So can someone explain a bit about leviathan?

#

I understand it's a being of death essentially, a bit of water and just unnerving creepyness

#

Like what does one gain worshipping such a thing?

magic jackal
#

In what setting?

#

In the Forgotten Realms it is not a being of death.

#

Instead, in FR, in the Elemental Planes, extremely powerful titanic elementals appear, the Water Elemental version of these are Leviathans.

#

More or less just a force of nature, formed of elemental water. Now some people worship these beings, mainly cults, and their objective is to probably just set it loose/create havoc.

#

And I don't really think cults are overly concerned about what they gain from being a cultist tbh 💀 at least not these ones that are obsessed with wrecking coastlines and such.

#

You could say what they gain is the downfall of civilization, maybe some cultists are in that cult for personal reasons, maybe it's a family tradition, or maybe they see it as a path to power, or maybe they are just overcome with zealous reverence for this thing, or just consumed by nihilism etc.

unborn fable
#

the cult is a plot point moving forward in game, its from faerun

#

but very interesting

#

thst explains the water everywhere

magic jackal
#

but yeah, I don't think it explicitly says anywhere that these cultists gain power from any Leviathan from their worship

unborn fable
#

i mean it was a disconnect

#

like ok they exist, ill drown them now because they wanna be closer to slimey boi

#

but why not drown themselves? eh

magic jackal
#

they can do both

#

I mean, they probably do ritually drown themselves

unborn fable
#

Interesting

magic jackal
#

but like, better to ritually drown others

#

it's just more efficient

storm dagger
#

The majority of Evil Water Elemental Cultists worship Olhydra

#

The Cult of the Crushing Wave's ethos for example

Cultists of the Crushing Wave worship the awesome power of water, from the surging tides and deadly maelstroms of the sea to the raging torrents of rivers in flood and the rock crushing power of ice and glaciers. Crushing Wave cultists see all living creatures as nothing more than trapped water that could one day be free to return to the seas or skies in a new form. The seas and deep waters are eager to reclaim the parts of themselves currently held in the blood and bodies of living creatures, and it is the duty of Crushing Wave initiates to return nonbelievers to the primal waters by drowning them or shedding their blood.

The Crushing Wave cult appeals to those who live in or near bodies of water, as well as to those who appreciate subtlety and inevitability. Wicked sea creatures such as aquatic ghouls and merrows are friendly toward water cultists. Even non-sentient predators such as sharks or octopuses understand that water cultists are allies to be aided or masters to be obeyed.

raven needle
#

hm. I have an unexpected interaction in my game and could use some FR lore advice. I have a kobold (NPC) who is willing to let himself get eaten by the dragon he angered in order to restore the relationship between the kobold clan and their god. However, I forgot that there was a priest of Ilmater in the dungeon that the players could rescue on their way to the dragon. Reading up a bit on Ilmater, it says he is instantly aware of any being sacrificing themselves for another, but would Ilmater actually intervene if the priest prays for that? Or would he just manifest some daisies and call it a day?

white ravine
#

No point in a sacrifice if you don't pay.

unborn fable
#

in FR have dieties or lesser celestial beings ever gone to war?

obsidian gate
#

Well there is the one time Zariel invaded Avernus with a small army

raven needle
#

there's also the time of troubles. not sure you can call it war, but a while bunch of gods died

unborn fable
#

That's the setting for my campaign

#

The time of troubles

iron saffron
#

Time of Troubles is 2E era when the gods walked amongst mortals and everyone panicked.

unborn fable
#

Yikes, I didn't know that last part.

iron saffron
#

It was essentially a narrative way for TSR to explain the big changes between 1E and 2E editions and adding avatars. 1E's Deities and Demigods, the gods have (relatively weak) statblocks but in 2E they had avatar statblocks but not the gods themselves.

#

There was a time jump of around 100 years between 3E and 4E in the FR timeline.

unborn fable
#

Soo the editions of the game are directly tied to the time in game?

iron saffron
#

In the Forgotten Realms timeline only.

unborn fable
#

That's crazy

iron saffron
#

Basically they had to explain things narratively while the magic systems changed with each system.

#

So there were cataclyms: Time of Troubles, the Spellplague, and the Second Sundering.

unborn fable
#

So in Ad&d campaign were in the in prelude to descent to Avernus. Which I understand is reeeeeaallly old

iron saffron
#

Yes, about 130 years difference (in FR timeline)

#

So check out that link I posted above.

modest badger
#

Partially in other settings too. Like between 1e and 2e, Istus changes Greyhawk

#

2e being the Greyhawk wars era

iron saffron
#

So having your campaign take place during the Time of Troubles essentially means there would be very few clerics with higher level divine spells (since their gods became mortals after losing their divinity)

unborn fable
#

We have literally no clerics, anywhere

#

I've seen one paladin, who was a PC. Other than that none.

magic jackal
#

Kinda seems like you've been asking lore questions about a campaign you're in, aren't you concerned you're gonna get spoiled or that it might bias your perspective because your DMs plans or setting might be different than established canon?

iron saffron
#

Oh, you're a player...

#

What we're posting may be spoiler territory then if you're actually playing during the Time of Troubles era.

unborn fable
#

Some what, but I cleared it with the dm before coming here. He recommended I dip a bit to understand some of the stuff as I'm fairly fresh.

#

I'm also using it as a means to develop in character plans. Which I have to bounce off of my dm

earnest coral
#

Could a cleric worship a demon? Or would that automatically be a warlock?

unborn fable
#

Good question, I'll ask my dm if he wants to make one happen lolol

#

Wait I remember he said it was possible yesterday, be a cleric to higher power, use a lesser one in the same line for warlock

#

Then your a cler-lock

iron saffron
#

Demon lords and archdevils aren't deities (with the exception of Asmodeus) so they don't have the divine power to grant divine spells. Typically they work with warlocks rather than clerics.

long merlin
iron saffron
#

Yes, they're not a "true" religion.

magic jackal
#

Well religion isn't exclusively defined by deities, so while it may be a true religion, they're not clerics.

#

Because Demon Lords and Archdevils (save for Asmodeus) do not have divine domains.

iron saffron
#

I used the air quotes there as in past editions the "religions" are typically defined by the number of followers. The more followers a god has the more divine power they have. A demi-god like Hercules would have very few worshippers compared to a greater god like Zeus. Cultists often worship in secrecy for various reasons.

That said, at least in previous editions' lore, demon lords and archdevils can "grant" clerical spells to their cultists by making deals with gods as a proxy. (Of course now with 5E, clerics don't need a god to get their divine spells)

shrewd bobcat
#

Is there any deeper lore regarding Trolls,
I mean besides raging Mutant offspring of giants/ogres and gods?

iron saffron
#

Ecology of the Troll, Dragon Magazine #301

drowsy wraith
#

Who would win in a fight Strahd riding Tiamat or Vecna?

iron saffron
storm dagger
#

Their legend is that Vaprak eats them when they die, but only if they are cooked or partially digested in advance

#

Which is why fire and acid can kill them

jagged apex
#

basically black sheeps of giant kind or byproduct of magical experiments seem to be the main origins, either way is canonically unclear but, true or not Vaprak is their patron deity in the forgotten realms and is also the patron deity of trolls, in 5e being last noted at the status of a lesser deity https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Troll#History

#

their history in the eberron setting is even less, with them just being previously existing, at least with what is on the eberron wiki

#

with some lines being quoted from a 3rd party book for the creator's continuity, keith baker, called "exploring eberron" but what is cited does not mention any potential origin

jagged apex
#

does anyone know if the details of the ritual known as "the Tears of Endless Anguish" detailed anywhere in published materials?

storm dagger
#

Not something I am familiar with

jagged apex
#

is mentioned in the item "Drown" and part of making the water orb of devastation from princes of the apocalypse, but the description refers to the orb's for the details and i did not notice any like in universe steps to the ritual the user would be doing

storm dagger
#

The ritual takes 1 hour to complete and requires 2,000 gp worth of special components, which are consumed.

#

Those are the main details I will check out the node to see if finer details are there

jagged apex
#

yeah but i am talking like chants and what not

#

like with a specific name like it is there has gotta be something specific apart from the weapon used and the node you are in, else that just seems underwhelming

storm dagger
#

Guess the details are up to you nothing about them in the node

jagged apex
#

that is unfortunate, if they ever revamp it like they did the tyranny of dragons story line or curse of strahd, i hope those are finer details they include

undone dagger
#

Hi y’all

undone dagger
jagged apex
undone dagger
#

Are you familiar with it?

jagged apex
#

yes

undone dagger
#

I’m a GM, doing curse of strahd and I’d like some advice on a certain portion of it if that’s alright?

iron saffron
#

This channel deals with official lore of official D&D campaign settings.

undone dagger
#

Yep on there brother

#

New to the server

iron saffron
#

It's all good.

orchid oracle
#

Gameplay mechanics aside, how deadly do you think cantrips like firebolt actually are

#

I would assume pretty dangerous

static oracle
#

Enough to seriously injure commoners for sure

#

Lethal more often than not

orchid oracle
#

Yeah I was gonna say, I feel like flinging fire or ice even as a cantrip can kill the average person

magic jackal
orchid oracle
magic jackal
#

(I was making a joke about firebolt being 1d10 at 1st level and 4d10 at 17th and a commoner having 1d8 hit points)

orchid oracle
#

Still makes sense though 😂

jagged apex
jagged apex
barren glade
#

is there any info about Silt flats in the plane of water? not finding much at all.

white ravine
jagged apex
# barren glade is there any info about Silt flats in the plane of water? not finding much at al...

such a thing is known to be in the para-elemental plane of ooze, but so far there is not much info about it since the source that tells us about that is from the 5e dmg, which is just a small bit of content, there is possibility that more info might be given in the future since giants in the bigby book are ment to be remystified much like dragons were in fizban's and the 5e planescape bundle is basically gunna be a bunch of extra planar stuff as it deals with the city of doors which is a sort of planar hub, so from what i am aware it is really only a 5e concept since that is where the info of such a thing existing comes from

#

so unless it turns out it is a thing in past editions too, it currently is just a name of a location that has yet to be elaborated on beyond being quote "muddy and sludgy region that marked the boundary between the swamp and the endless sea." the endless sea being used as another name for the elemental plane of water

barren glade
#

yea that is as much info i managed to get myself too, but thanks ^^

jagged apex
#

np, sorry most of it was just reitterating what you already found

timber nova
#

Does anyone have a timeline of the world

timber nova
iron saffron
#

Which world?

#

There are many D&D official campaign settings.

timber nova
#

Forbidden realm?

iron saffron
#

The Forgotten Realms.

timber nova
#

Im interested in making my own settings

timber nova
iron saffron
jagged apex
iron saffron
jagged apex
#

if not a fan of reading and are more of an auditory learner, there are lore videos out there but depending on the content creator may wanna take their info with a grain of salt

#

though can't go wrong with ed greenwood's youtube channel's vids, not sure if he has ones on a timeline, but he has other lore videos on various topics in the setting and often mentions various moments in history relevant to the topic, can't think of a better person to learn about the setting from than the creator and main writer of said setting

tardy wasp
#

What forms of lycanthropy would Selune accept among her Clerics and Paladins? I read in SCAG that humans from Dambrath tend to worship either Silvanus, Malar, or Selune, and seek out lycanthropy sometimes to honor their favorite god and connect with their heritage.

My character is from Waterdeep, not Dambrath, but he's still a Cleric of Selune, as well as a natural-born lycanthrope. Would Selune only be okay with werebear servants, since they're good-aligned, or could any beast-man work? Would it be possible for a more aggressive lycan variant to reign in their more sinister tendencies over time in her church?

magic jackal
vital heron
#

Lycanthropy is sometimes referred to as "Selune's Kiss"

white ravine
#

Werebears come to mind immediately

iron saffron
#

Wereravens are typically LG.

#

Swanmays are good-aligned druids and rangers who voluntarily induce lycanthropy to themselves to change into swans.

glacial granite
#

I meant cant any lycanthrope be good?

iron saffron
#

The curse tends to make them a certain alignment but that's a rule of thumb than fixed.

glacial granite
#

Yeah Im glad theyve been getting rid of the "this entire group of creatures has this alignment" sort of thing

manic minnow
#

Aren't they keeping that with Gnolls

iron saffron
#

Even 3.5E rarely had fixed alignments for monsters, usually that's reserved for natives of the Inner and Outer Planes (aka Outsiders). They used "often" and "sometimes" to denote the frequency of said monster tended to be of that alignment. Of course, there are always exceptions to the rule, such as fallen angels.

terse agate
#

is there any region in D&D where there isnt any real solid history of events? Particularly in Faerun?

iron saffron
#

There are always blocks of lore that's not deeply covered. Faerun is a big continent.

#

Is there a specific part of Faerun you're looking at?

magic jackal
storm dagger
white ravine
#

It makes sense for it to be that way, even if they are kind of still humanoid

#

But monstrosity fits a little better

storm dagger
#

Yeah they don’t even have a humanoid life cycle

white ravine
#

Well...they do

#

...when they feel like it...

sacred root
#

What kind of Human/Humanoid do you think Tiamat would fall for, if any?

sharp owl
#

I don't think Tiamat thinks that way

sacred root
#

Reasonable

white ravine
#

If theyre lucky, she 'blesses' them and morphs them into a dragon.

#

But thats the equivalent of a human outrunning a cheetah, you'd be lucky to even match a dragon's level of arrogance before getting killed

upbeat forum
#

Is ugudenk still a thing in 5e? I can't find any sources about ugudenk that are clearly 5e-sources and I know that there were some changes made to the Abyss in the transition from 4e to 5e

white ravine
#

Afaik he's gone unmentioned in 5e

dull bone
#

Null has been vastly ignored too........

white ravine
#

Null gets a mention iirc, but yeah dont rely on 5e to have any deeper information you can find in older editions.

#

I dont even think they name any of the layers of Hades or Mount Celestia...

upbeat forum
#

So I should just go with the 4e lore for ugudenk if I want him in my campaign?

white ravine
#

Up to you, but if you want accuracy doing that homework will help

unborn fable
#

so im reading up on dark suns. are psionics jut everywhere there?

dull bone
#

I miss Psionics......

dull bone
white ravine
dull bone
#

Ah, I'm still trying to figure out texting abbreviations lol

magic jackal
#

dw, afaik it comes p ez, just takes a min to get used to it iirc, yk?

tardy wasp
iron saffron
#

Very high if the 5E Spelljammer boxed set was of any indication.

white ravine
#

I swear, if 5e planescape is nothing but sigil I am gonna throw a chair

iron saffron
#

I have a suspicion it will be.
WotC: "We don't want to lock you DMs to the Great Wheel cosmology so you make up the rest!"

storm dagger
#

That's clearly not the case

#

The setting book is called Sigil and the Outlands

#

The Spelljammer set honestly says nothing about how the Planescape set will be.

#

I have no idea why that post was deleted, that map is on the product page for the Planescape set.

#

We get a map of the outlands, which shows the outer planes.

iron saffron
#

The common complaint about 5E Spelljammer is that was very light.

The Outlands is just the centre of the multiverse so it probably means that 5E Planescape won't delve much into details the Outer Planes then (with the 96 page count)...

storm dagger
#

It honestly does not need to.

iron saffron
#

Well, the original question was asking if they'll go into the details of the layers of the individual planes.

storm dagger
#

I imagine some details with the Gatetowns.

iron saffron
#

Well, I'm glad I have my Manual of the Planes from the older editions...

storm dagger
#

And I bet we will vist some outer planes in the adventure.

#

I could see a Manual of the Planes eventully, but I don't think it's needed for Planescape's core. Sigil and the Outlands are more important.

#

Also yes Spelljammer was light, but Planescape is both longer and won't have over half it's pages devoted to ships.

white ravine
#

Wow. And I was already skeptical

unkempt merlin
#

96 for the setting stuff + player options, 96 for adventure and 64 for monsters (which is invariably going to include planar lore because of the fact that stuff like the heirarch modrons are present)

#

Very explicitly the setting book will include

details on the fantastic City of Doors, descriptions of the Outlands and the gate-towns that lead to the Outer Planes, and more

iron saffron
#

This is up from the 64-pages for each of the three books in the 5E Spelljammer boxed set.

white ravine
#

I will say ill be if nothing else happy if we get higher end modrons like a secundus

unkempt merlin
#

"Descriptions of the outlands" is very much "the basics are going to be covered"

white ravine
#

But then again I cant wait to see them scuff up these ones as well.

iron saffron
#

So basically the towns of the Outlands that correspond with each the Outer Planes of the Great Wheel.

unkempt merlin
#

The basics of the Outlands, and then the gate towns. Effectively probably the equivalent of spelljammer describing the astral+wildspace and then the rock of bral for each of the planes + the corresponding gate town.

#

But this time with less space being taken up by a titular part of the setting that annoyed people like spelljammer book did

#

Or I guess more of the space being taken up by a titular part of the setting?

storm dagger
#

I should note the original Planescape set only had 96 pages for Sigil and the Outlands as well.

#

And the font was bigger with more obtrusive art.

storm dagger
unkempt merlin
#

(and only partially page count per book)

unkempt merlin
#

1 book to every 5 of past editions will do that

iron saffron
#

Well, yes 2E Planescape had a plethora of supplement books. 5E campaign settings is an one book (boxed set) affair and that's it, no more support outside of DMs Guild by third parties.

storm dagger
#

Yeah original Planescape was 96 book for Sigil and the Outlands, 32 Page book for Monsters, 32 page book for Player details, 64 page book for DM info.

unkempt merlin
storm dagger
#

A fair number of information is actually repeated over those books, which I didn't really like.

storm dagger
unkempt merlin
#

Not quite

storm dagger
#

?

iron saffron
#

Curse of Strahd wasn't a supplement though.

unkempt merlin
#

Ravenloft has 1 book and CoS is an adventure book, which only includes adventure pertinent setting info

Exandria is similar, with 1 setting book for one part of the setting, and Call of the Netherdeep is an adventure book, once again only with the setting info pertinent to the adventure.

storm dagger
#

I consider an Advneture that contains a whole Gazetter to an area to be part setting book.

iron saffron
#

Both of those were one source book and one adventure campaign.

#

A lot of 5E books squeezes in DM-centric stuff, see Ghosts of Saltmarsh with the ships and naval battle rules, instead of having separate source books. This irritates me as a DM who don't care for the 5E adventures but want the DM-centric stuff (see Waterdeep, Baldur's Gate books)

#

I think WotC went too much to the opposite extreme when trying to avoid the flood of splat books 2E and 3E had.

storm dagger
#

So I am the opposite and quite like that stuff.

jagged apex
#

ravenloft went adventure then sourcebook

iron saffron
#

It was obvious that WotC marketing had the designers stuff Baldur's Gate into Descent into Avernus because it made no bloody sense

jagged apex
jagged apex
#

like i have not gotten to play it or dm it and even i know it makes sense if you actually read the plot even on a basic level or hell even watch a video summarizing the concept like the promo material

#

whether you like it or not of feel it was convoluted is a completely separate and very subjective matter

#

hell, even just skimming through it it made sense and that was without me reading the full details explaiing each chapter of the adventure and it's over all plot

pale badge
#

Hey what is the name of the town in the outer planes that has gates to every plane of existence?

jagged apex
#

which one?

crude blaze
#

Sigil

jagged apex
#

there is basically one for each plane

pale badge
jagged apex
#

sigil is more of a city that is a multiversal planar hub, with doors to not just other planes but other places in the multiverse, including other prime material worlds and even specific locations

jagged apex
#

also calling sigil a town is like calling a continent an island XD

spark haven
#

ecumenopolis might come close

long merlin
#

Wait vice verca

jagged apex
#

is still different than being one itself

iron saffron
jagged apex
#

so?

#

does not change the point

#

i agree

jagged apex
#

though to my knowledge those are still special cases but far as i know there is also no term that is ment to be like city is to town that would be beyond the sizes of cities

upbeat forum
jagged apex
#

well australia does not exist in the forgotten realms, but it does have an anolog XD

upbeat forum
#

Earth exists in the forgotten realms multiverse

jagged apex
#

no, it exists in the dnd multiverse

upbeat forum
#

Okay, then I must have messed thing up in my head

jagged apex
#

toril being in the forgotten realms and is it's equivelent to earth having many similarities

upbeat forum
#

How much could a scholar who spent most of his live into studying demons and the abyss (with studying I mean studying in libraries and stuff) actually know about this stuff? Like, how much would you even find out? I assume that only few went into the abyss and came back to tell their tale.

iron saffron
#

There's Iggwilv, who wrote the Demonomicon, and Ahm, who wrote the Black Scrolls.

jagged apex
#

given how chaotic the enviorment and demons themselves are, very little, unless you were taught by someone like tasha aka iggwil, who is renouned for her specilization in that field compared to others

upbeat forum
#

Or, more specifically, could a scholar know Ugudenk exists and that Ugudenk is a demon lord that rules part of the abyss?

jagged apex
#

being the chaotic evil plane in the multiverse with connections of sorts of the far realm or elements similar to it, it is practically ever changing and like other planes infinite in scale

iron saffron
#

There are countless demon lords, not all rule a layer.

#

The obyrith demons were mainly pushed out by the tanar'ri.

jagged apex
#

and often keep to themselves, biding their time or just kind of doing their own thing

iron saffron
#

Pazuzu is one of the few obyrith demon lords who openly walks flies among the tanar'ri.

jagged apex
#

but the article about him is from the old series of called "Demonomicon of Iggwilv" so if you had the article of the same name or access to it, is possible you could have stumbled across it eventually

jagged apex
#

though rarely he is known to burst out of the material plane

upbeat forum
#

Because I have a player who made a character who believes that there’s a giant worm in the earth that might emerge one day and destroy everything. And he left it up to me to decide if this giant worm actually exists and what exactly it is, and I decided that the giant worm is in fact ugudenk. One of the characters goals is to find out more about this worm. And I thought I could maybe have the party encounter some scholar who could tell the player some stuff about it

jagged apex
#

so you might have a better chance being directly or indirectly effected by the Squirming King, if you were in the area of one of these instances

jagged apex
#

though the catch is likely most if not all such scholars would be insane, as quote from dragon #359 "any creature that saw Ugudenk was at significant risk of going mad- from the realization that Ugudenk could erupt from the ground at any time. This particular form of insanity hampered creatures ability to do anything while standing on the ground; and it could only be cured by the spells heal, greater restoration, miracle, or wish. Even creatures normally immune to fear were vulnerable to this madness, though they could shake it off after only an hour. In fact, only demons and other chaotic evil outsiders were known to be immune."

upbeat forum
#

The character also thinks that “the great worm” is an evil god who must be worshipped with sacrifices to prevent him from angrily emerging from the ground. That could be explained by saying that the records that his believe is based on have a serious translation error in them or something

jagged apex
#

so bonus points in my opinion if you make any such scholar an aarakocra, cuz being from the elemental plane of air they already are known to hate confined spaces, basically being racially clostrophobic

#

lol, in before somehow he mistranslated Kyuss as Ugudenk

#

could even have conflicts between cults of the 2 long boys

upbeat forum
#

Wait, would this Kyoss be a better match for this than Ugudenk

sonic ridge
#

Ey, may be better to post here, anyone here have any images of the Batrachi race? I am looking for them because I have tracked down stuff for the other 4 creator races, but there is nothing in images for the Batrachi

jagged apex
iron saffron
sonic ridge
#

Thats where I have lore and combat from

#

(sorry, 1 image, but that guy mutated 3 times)

iron saffron
#

Bazim-Gorag is the closest you'll get probably

sonic ridge
iron saffron
#

¯_(ツ)_/¯

sonic ridge
iron saffron
#

Look at the citations at the bottom of that link.

jagged apex
#

a general description is mentioned, complete with citation on their wiki page

#

basically maters little what they looked like as they were shapeshifters

upbeat forum
jagged apex
sonic ridge
orchid oracle
#

In Forgotten Realms, even though Kara-Tur has its own spirituality, would they still know Faerûnian gods? Like would a Kara Tur wizard know Mystra since she basically made the Weave?

static oracle
#

I don't see why not.

orchid oracle
#

I love the Forgotten Realms but having a huge continent like Kara Tur barely mentioned makes the world feel less alive and connected

spark haven
#

Being less connected is largely the point. The forgotten realms/sword coast is by design a limited part of the planet. It's meant to have mysteries far away lands that nobody you ever meet has ever actually been to, only heard of

magic jackal
#

It was a standalone setting, then it was a setting for a non FR world, then it got adapted to Toril and it was really there just to provide a FR basis for their "Oriental Adventures" stuff in 3e, and then rarely ever mentioned again (for probably a number of reasons)

iron saffron
orchid oracle
orchid oracle
#

You would think since the continent is so large and the people are culturally rich and stuff that they would have more prominent interaction with faerûn in the lore

iron saffron
#

Well, if you think back to ancient China, the Chinese considered themselves the centre of the world/universe, hence why it was called the Middle Kingdom. Why would it bother with other nations that were less advanced than it was?

#

Frankly, Faerun is European-centric already and I rather keep the non-European-inspired campaign settings European-influences out. Elves, dwarves, and metallic/chromatic dragons don't fit in an East/South-East Asian influenced setting.

iron saffron
sonic ridge
#

Wanted your opinion on these thoughts

#

(Also I think I can have a friend help me figure out what this race looked like when it was a batrachi)

iron saffron
#

I have no idea. I don't know much about the creator races.

snow laurel
#

is there an elemental plane of acid?

#

one of the para-elemental ones maybe?

iron saffron
#

In the Great Wheel cosmology, the para-elemental planes are:
Ice (between Air and Water)
Dust/Smoke (between Air and Fire)
Magma (between Earth and Fire)
Ooze (between Earth and Water)

#

In cosmology of the world of Athas (aka Dark Sun), the paraelemental planes are known as Magma, Rain, Silt, and Sun.

snow laurel
#

hmmm, maybe the ooze is acidic

iron saffron
#

There are eight quasi-elemental planes:
Ash, Salt, Steam, Radiance, Mineral, Lightning, Dust, and Vacuum.

snow laurel
iron saffron
#

No idea. I only know of the eight (prime) elemental lords (evil and good).

hardy wave
#

Is there any lore reason why metallic dragons can naturally change shape but chromatic dragons can't?

iron saffron
#

Since they tend to be good-aligned and they like the company of mortal humanoids, they use the disguise to help but not directly in their dragon forms.

Bahamut often does this.

sonic ridge
#

(like things she has done, not just an overview)

static oracle
#

She made a cryptic deal with Vlakith and Gith.

#

Her and Bahamut are said to have once been the same entity before they were cleaved in twain by an adamantine greataxe.

sonic ridge
static oracle
#

Kobolds that worship Tiamat do so because their actual god, Kurtlmach, was trapped/killed by Garl Glittergold, gnome god, and can't answer their prayers.

slender shell
jagged apex
#

yes, in the forgotten realms she has used the name tasha as an alias, which funny enough is also the name of a completely sepperate character

#

she might have used it as an alias in other settings too, but i know she has gone by it in the forgotten realms at least

jagged apex
jagged apex
#

so it depends which one you are going with as there are honestly with gods in general often more than one origin out there, but none more complex and convoluted than asmodeus, dude's origin is unknown by ANYONE, save himself and potentially one other being who has 0 inclination to disclose the truth on the matter

iron saffron
#

Iggwilv is original from Oerth (aka World of Greyhawk), like many of the "named" archmagi (which a lot of the spells are named after).

jagged apex
#

basically when a powerful mage creates a new spell, they often name it after themselves

iron saffron
#

Most of those famous mages were once PCs at Gary Gygax's table.

jagged apex
# sonic ridge (asking mainly due to interest in lore between her and her followers (mainly the...

her followers often serve her wants and plans or their own in her name that she can in some way benefit from, some cases are even where she tricked people into worshiping her and using them as pawns, her page on the forgotten realms wiki that covers her worshipers, which is all cited so for further info can check those sources, details largely events she used to amass followers or otherwise use some like pawns https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Tiamat#Worshipers

#

and just above that her relationships are also detailed similarly with examples from her history

magic jackal
jagged apex
#

yeah but it implies it potentially as it was literally the first world and they were not cleaved from Io until he was slain in the a conflict during the time where on toril the primordial and gods wared from dominion, so to me at least it logically implies that they were more so his children like some other lore sometimes acts when talking about their past with one another

magic jackal
#

it's obviously figurative/metaphorical for one, and for two, the creation myth that revolves around Io as the Worldshaper is vague and could easily predate the creation of "the First World" because he's described as being born in "the First Void"

#

I mean Draconic Myth suggests he shaped the entire multiverse

jagged apex
#

either way it is just as valid to say it could be implying that in the 5e continuity they are separate and more so proper siblings, though i could be wrong, to my knowledge Io has not himself been mentioned in any tense in 5e materials

magic jackal
#

Oh yeah Io is not in 5e

#

which I'm sad about cuz he's cool

#

/she's cool

#

I'm not actually sure if Io is gendered at all

jagged apex
#

only reason he is not in 5e technically is cuz he is long since dead

magic jackal
#

That's definitely not the only reason Io is not referenced in 5e

jagged apex
#

5e is as i have come to understand both a continuation of the past editions but also it's own continuity kind of a multiverse theory kind of thing where every potential different interpritation or version of the setting is it's own timeline

jagged apex
magic jackal
#

a reason, I'm not even sure it's that big

#

and what's more, there's some vague allusions to Io being not dead but imprisoned, and will one day rise

#

the whole thing is most references to Io are extremely vague, and Io themself does not really interact with the world

jagged apex
#

i'd say being murdered is a pretty big reason, cuz the process to revive a dead god is canonically not only potentially obscure but requires a certain amount of followers of that god for the ritual, and dragons and gods at least on toril have been a mess to say the least in regards to their trust with their worshipers, is why bahamut and tiamat are the only major players these days on toril out of the draconic pantheon, despite being some of the weaker deities in the overall pantheon

magic jackal
#

except, Io is not actually among the listed dead gods

jagged apex
magic jackal
#

exactly

#

everything regarding Io is vague, mysterious, and in some cases directly contradictory

#

and they're not going to answer any of the questions, nor are they likely to manifest to prove or disprove anything one way or the other

jagged apex
magic jackal
#

and they're not in 5e, so we can't confirm canonically whether they can still grant divine powers or not

jagged apex
#

yet

iron saffron
#

Well, 5E is missing a lot of updated lore from past editions.

magic jackal
#

exactly

ivory ice
#

Are there any creatures, or potential patrons that control dream, like Sandman?

jagged apex
#

yeah until 5e gives lore that outright disproves somethings existence or the edition comes to and end, is best to just consider anything not mentioned from prior editions as not in 5e YET

jagged apex
magic jackal
#

now it's a druidic circle

jagged apex
jagged apex
ivory ice
#

I get it, but I want to make a warlock subclass that has the player go into peoples house, and changes dreams to make their parton's power grow

magic jackal
#
  1. Sounds like some Archfey
#
  1. Use the Dream spell
jagged apex
#

or great old one

magic jackal
#

that also makes sense

jagged apex
#

honestly if anything the dream domain can at least help you know the general beats for that

ivory ice
jagged apex
#

and honestly if sandman were to exist in dnd, pretty sure he would be an archfey or at least a fey in general

#

cuz you know, folklore

#

tell stories about something enough times across any world(s), including earth, and it will likely manifest as a being in the feywilds somewhere

magic jackal
#

Eh, nah, in his own story he's more of a Godlike being who represents and controls an essential aspect of reality

#

and he doesn't need any worshippers

#

and he has a notable divine domain

#

I'd say he's a Greater Deity

jagged apex
#

yeah but that is not ment to be in a dnd context, so he would not be god like, at most he'd be like an archfey which are almost godlike in their own territories, but weaker than any god proper

magic jackal
#

Nah, that doesn't really suit Sandman imo

jagged apex
#

-_-

magic jackal
#

At full strength he should be more powerful than most proper Gods, not weaker

jagged apex
#

not really

#

source material does not = 1 to 1 when translating to dnd

magic jackal
#

That's literally the place the Endless occupy in the hierarchy of deities in the greater setting

#

and 'representing and controlling an essential aspect of reality + having a powerful divine domain + being stronger than most other gods' = greater deity

jagged apex
#

that is not how the gods work in dnd

#

his strength as a god would be tied heavily to his followers and his domain, the amount of dreams constantly having to be anywhere near that level of power for more than a brief moment is beyond realistic

magic jackal
#

greater deities are the higher ranks of the gods, they do not need worship to sustain their strength, they have a divine domain, they can and sometimes do control essential aspects of reality

jagged apex
#

especially when existing gods also have those domains

magic jackal
#

there's a difference between 'representing all dreams' and requiring worship to exist and have power

#

iirc his power is unrelated to worship in his native setting, which is kinda the defining characteristic of lesser deities

#

and point apart, if you're gonna make the argument of power being tied to followers and domain then that contradicts your earlier point of archfey

jagged apex
#

🤦 what ever i am not gunna stay up all night explaining something for you as simple as why you can not take something from 1 fictional universe and put it in dnd as is and call it a day, cuz you clearly are refusing to listen

iron saffron
#

Just because there's no mention of a past piece of lore in 5E doesn't mean it doesn't suddenly not exist. Malcanthet, the demon queen of the succubi, was not mentioned in 5E until she showed up in the 2016 Drizzt novel, Hero, and then with an updated look in 2023 The Legend of Drizzt - Visual Dictionary.

magic jackal
jagged apex
magic jackal
#

and I'm just saying that if you want to keep the essential aspects of the character, that is the role in the forgotten realms that best suits his character as it exists in his native setting

#

don't go getting passive aggressive on me now lmao

iron saffron
#

Yup, I'm using that art for her for my campaign (the PCs will encounter her)

storm dagger
#

I hope we get stats

jagged apex
#

time will tell

#

is all but assured if she gets a major role in an adventure module at some point

storm dagger
#

I also want some Lolth stats, she has a cool mini even.

magic jackal
#

There's some stats in 1e 👀

#

XD

#

typically Gods are not statted in 5e though.

storm dagger
#

We have a Tiamat. Lolth I think can work as an upgraded Arasta.

jagged apex
#

yeah, same, every similar named powerful being in 5e that we know of i hope will at least get some form of statblock, at least those that are not beyond the ability for players to reasonably beat in combat which is largely why we have yet to see anything beyond cr30 in 5e, such creatures are just to powerful for parties, even with whole armies of support to oppose in a strait up combat encounter

magic jackal
#

Well, we have Tiamat in an adventure with several stipulations, and we have a severely depowered Auril, again with a million stipulations

#

also from an adventure

jagged apex
storm dagger
#

I think Lolth would work as a CR 25 or so with mutiple forms. Which is how she worked in 1e and 4e.

#

Like In Queen of the Demonweb pits from 1e, Lolth is fought 3 times.

jagged apex
#

and how auril, even though weakened functions in 5e, 3 forms, 2 of which if i am not mistaken ment to represent her aspects

magic jackal
#

Well, 5e is not 1e and Gods in 5e are typically unstatted to enable the DM to have Gods just do things, and to prevent the players from directly hurting them.

storm dagger
#

She's a Lesser God which are supposed to be in punching range.

magic jackal
#

Because they're literally on a different level from mortals, unless very specific circumstances are in place, which is why only two have been statted in 5e.

unkempt merlin
#

The only god stats in 5e are avatars, not full representations of the metaphysical aspects of the gods

Ie: killing the avatars doesn't destroy the god

unkempt merlin
magic jackal
unkempt merlin
#

Tiamat, Bahamut, and Auril

jagged apex
#

in that case the only reason she is so weakened is part one do to the events of the plot, and basically getting kicked out of the gods of fury for doing a bit of a woopsie which happens before the events of the icewind dale module https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Auril#History

magic jackal
#

Bahamut doesn't have a stat block, he has a Metallic Dragon that sacrificed themselves to him to be granted a fraction of his power

#

Aspect of is not the same as Avatar nor actual God.

unkempt merlin
#

He does have a statblock in Fizbans

storm dagger
#

DMG says Lesser Gods can be encountered, it's Greaters that can't.

magic jackal
unkempt merlin
#

An aspect is another name for an avatar

storm dagger
#

Aspect is the same as an avatar.

unkempt merlin
jagged apex
storm dagger
#

Well Auril's stats are her, just weakened.

magic jackal
unkempt merlin
unkempt merlin
storm dagger
#

She actully dies if it's slain.

unkempt merlin
storm dagger
#

The final form is her Divine Spark.

unkempt merlin
jagged apex
unkempt merlin
#

She is not destroyed as an entity when it is slain

jagged apex
#

yeah the adventure literally states that if she is stopped in the adventure she is forced back to her divine realm and can't form a new avatar for another year

storm dagger
#

Nope it says she dies

#

Then revives the next year

#

She is resurrected on the next winter solstice, and decides to retreat from the world.

magic jackal
#

Avatars on the other hand are literally the god taking temporary form in the world.

iron saffron
#

I can't remember which book says it but even if a god is somehow killed in one Crystal Sphere they would still exist in another. So if a party someone kills the goddess Lolth (and not just her aspect/avatar) she still lives on in another multiverse.

storm dagger
unkempt merlin
storm dagger
#

She as a god is dead for a year

spark haven
#

that's like saying the trees die durign winter

unkempt merlin
#

a god who has mortal worshipers can't truly die

iron saffron
#

3.5E introduced aspects as another way for lower tier PCs to fight demon lords and archdevils without their full power.

magic jackal
# storm dagger That's not the definition in 5e

5e does not make a concerted effort to draw a distinction between the two, but it also doesn't not do that, in other words it doesn't say they're not the same thing, but it also doesn't say they are.

spark haven
#

it's just a different stage of their lifecycle

jagged apex
#

gods just like other extra planar beings can't die unless destroyed on their home plane in their case their divine realm

spark haven
#

one of extreme dormancy

magic jackal
iron saffron
#

Even dead gods can come back (see Bane).

storm dagger
#

When the Frostmaiden is resurrected on the next winter solstice, she has all her divine power. But her inclination is to retreat from the world and not allow herself to be imperiled by mortals once more

unkempt merlin
jagged apex
#

the word choice is poor, but when a god dies, it is not in the traditional sense

iron saffron
#

I hated RotFM for making how weak Auril was...

storm dagger
#

SHe is expictly weakened.

spark haven
#

Sure, and weakened isn't dead

storm dagger
#

Cause she is draining a lot of power to both stay in the world, and do the eternal winter.

jagged apex
storm dagger
magic jackal
#

Which, I will note, is almost exactly what aspects were described as in prior editions.

jagged apex
#

those statblocks only apply to her when she is weakened via things like what she does in the adventure, otherwise they likely would be much more powerful

unkempt merlin
#

In the most dire situations, a powerful follower of Bahamut who makes a tremendous sacrifice—a vast hoard or even the follower's own life—might convince the god to send aid to the world in the form of a divine aspect. This aspect is a physical manifestation of the Platinum Dragon, carrying his memories and will—and a significant portion of his formidable strength.

jagged apex
#

like they do not hide the fact she is not at full power in these statblocks

magic jackal
unkempt merlin
#

It very explicitly is a physical manifestation of bahamut

#

And an avatar is literally just a physical manifestation

magic jackal
#

And an avatar is a different kind of physical manifestation than an aspect

storm dagger
#

Bane, Bhaal and Myrkul are also explicitly weakened in the Forgotten Realms, cause they are choosing to remain on Faerun like Auril did.

unkempt merlin
#

And both Auril and the og tiamat statblock have been referred to as avatars

unkempt merlin
jagged apex
#

in 5e, aspect and avatar has become interchange able, and to befair by definition avatars are specific to deities, aspects can be of any sufficently powerful extra planar being, including demon lords

magic jackal
storm dagger
#

Yes

magic jackal
#

Intentionally

#

Because they've used avatar before

#

they could've used it again

#

they chose to use aspect.

unkempt merlin
#

It's placing aspect and avatar as the same concept currently yes

magic jackal
#

I'm suggesting that choice was intentional.

storm dagger
#

I am pretty sure they consider the terms interchangable.

jagged apex
magic jackal
unkempt merlin
#

I'm fairly confident thay the bahamut and tiamat ones are called aspect to A) link them together and B) allow distinction between the two tiamat statblocks

storm dagger
unkempt merlin
#

As the first tiamat statblock has been explicitly referred to as her avatar

magic jackal
#

I'll grant it's entirely possible you're right, but until I see proof I'm not gonna just assume it's fact.

#

so for now I'm only treating it as possible.

unkempt merlin
#

Tiamats first statblock is explicitly referred to as an avatar by Jcraw

#

As is Auril

jagged apex
#

he is presently a quasi-deity

storm dagger
#

The Dead Three have stated to have weakened themselves to remain on Toril, as AO has placed a blanket ban on gods manifesting on the world. (Without outside assistance)

#

Auril seems to have been a similar case but after her defeat gives up and goes to the outer planes.

jagged apex
#

eh from the wording cited on the wiki seems more so direct influence, not specifically manifesting on the world as that already tends to be rather rare

storm dagger
#

Manifesting was the best way of direct influence.

jagged apex
#

the loss in power was basically their trade off as well as being trapped in mortal form to be able to influence events on toril more directly

storm dagger
#

Yeah it was purely voluntary on their part.

jagged apex
#

they are basically now, assuming they are like bane, now akin to demi-gods, meaning their divine realms are on the material plane and if you wanna fast track to godhood, you gotta kill them there and take their spark

#

granted without a certain dagger is still gunna be quiet the challange, but is faster than most other routes

storm dagger
#

I liked Greyhawk's way of making sure the gods did not keep messing with the world.

hazy fox
#

So speaking on deities.
Can I put one of the novels that related to Tiamat, or Cult of the Dragon?
Let's say that it also had "questionable" depiction of East meets West in fantasy even if it was one of FEW that had Kara-Tur and Faerun interaction.

iron saffron
#

You do whatever you want at your table.

jagged apex
#

does not sound on topic for this channel

iron saffron
#

We're chatting about the official lore.

storm dagger
#

Namely for a god to manifest on Oerth they need permession of the rest of the gods of their panetheon.

hazy fox
#

This novel in 2E era had a Kara-Tur emissary--who is one of the sons of the Emperors who was named here but appeared in Eastern Realms book--joining a Dragon cult out of assumption on they would be as friendly his region's dragon without knowing that Faerunian (chromatic) ones are evil. Then again, he wasn't bright to begin with.
https://letsreadtsr.com/reviews/the-veiled-dragon/ (It was this, and content warning: unintentional insensitivity due to what author at the time associate with Asia on context of East meets West story written into fantasy.)

rugged moat
#

that actually sounds good to read tho

storm dagger
#

Saint Cuthbert for example has universal permission to manifest himself to curb the ambitions of Iuz when he was overstepping his godly bounds.

rugged moat
storm dagger
#

Yeah mentioned this was Greyhawk.

hazy fox
iron saffron
#

I always found the deities of Oerth kinda bland as they were the "default" deities for a few editions.

storm dagger
#

I am fond of them as they were the gods I was familar with by default.

iron saffron
#

Anyway, it'll be interesting how Matt Mercer moves his campaign away from the Greyhawk inspired gods due to trademark issues as CR moves to their own system...

hazy fox
#

So curious if originally it was Golarion (because Pathfinder), but this is getting into off-topic.

storm dagger
#

Mercer uses the Dawn War Pantheon not the Greyhawk one.

#

The Dawn War Panetheon takes gods from a bunch of different settings including Greyhawk.

iron saffron
#

I stand corrected.

storm dagger
#

It also does something weird. Namely with Torm and Bane.

#

Despite using the name of the Forgotten Realms Gods, in the Dawn War they are quite diffrent from their FR versions.

#

and are much more like Heironeous, and Hextor from Greyhawk.

#

Gods of Chivalry and War respectivly, and brother gods.

iron saffron
#

I thought Pelor and Kord were Greyhawk gods too, no?

storm dagger
#

They are, but they were just brought over.

iron saffron
#

Ah

storm dagger
#

FR Bane also had a Divine Realm called the Black Bastion, but Dawn War Bane was given a new one called Banehold.

#

And Hextor's Realm is called Scourgehold.

iron saffron
#

Different god with the same name?

#

The FR Bane was a mortal before achieving godhood.

storm dagger
#

I just got curious cause I was talking about it, and looked it up.

#

Bane: Here's another god whose placeholder name just stuck, despite some reservations. We wanted an evil war god in the pantheon, and without Heironeous, Hextor didn't make a lot of sense. We wanted the kind of heavily militaristic god whose temples you might find among non-evil societies who have spent long years at war, as well as among hobgoblins. We wanted a god who embodied just the sort of tyrannical dictatorship that Bane stands for in the Forgotten Realms. We started calling him Bane as a placeholder. He went through a number of different, unsatisfying names. Finally, someone said we should just call him Bane. So Bane he remained.

#

From James Wyatt

#

Bahamut: Here's another example of a familiar, draconic face showing up in a somewhat new light. Maybe it was the Platinum Knight prestige class in Draconomicon that did it, but something convinced me a long time ago that Bahamut was a much cooler god of paladins than Heironeous ever was. Like Corellon, Bahamut's not just for dragons any more. He's the god of justice, protection, and honor, and many paladins of all races worship him. Many metallic dragons revere him as well, thinking of him as the first of their kind. Some legends about Bahamut describe him as literally a shining platinum dragon, while others describe him as a more anthropomorphic deity, who's called the Platinum Dragon as a title of respect. Exhorting his followers to protect the weak, liberate the oppressed, and defend just order, Bahamut stands as the exemplar of the paladin's ideal.

#

I was wrong Torm was not part of the Dawn War Pantheon.

hazy fox
#

Part of me kinda wonder if Final Fantasy Bahamut is based on DND's?

magic jackal
#

More likely they both originate from the real-world mythological figure

#

iirc the Bahamut in FF has significantly more in common with its mythological counterpart than the D&D Bahamut

storm dagger
hazy fox
#

Yeah, pig orcs and dog kobolds as well.
To the point that DND influenced anime seems to kept it.

storm dagger
#

To be exact Pig Orcs are because Dragon Quest based it's Orc art on the Monster Manual Orc, and Dragon Quest is the JP fantasy model.

iron saffron
#

Everyone borrows from everyone else...

hazy fox
#

Well, sometimes, more obvious than other.
If the writer is clever, it will be inverse (like Elric of Melnibone copying Conan…by reversing every traits)

dull bone
#

Honest question here for any Ravenloft aficionados. Do you prefer the 5e version where the domanins are floating islands in the Shadowfell, or do you prefer the older editions where there was a core and it was all basically connected?

sharp owl
#

I much prefer the former, the 5th edition version. It feels more like a fog ridden purgatory than "spookyland"