sudden rush is S tier
#h1-high-heat-strategies
true fable
rain sedge
well I do have a minotaur rush offered
but I think I'll take breaching rush
I have no confidence I'll ever get that power rush
true fable
ferocious guard is A tier
gaunt fiber
Why is charged shot so good?
spring kettle
it's a flat 80 regardless of charge time
gaunt fiber
Oh we're on beo still
true fable
well
true fable
its good on every shield tbh
rain sedge
and guess who just died to meg anyway
I'm done, thanks
you can finish the rest of the aspects astaos
gaunt fiber
I needed the bullrush on Zeus, m'y charged shot run did not go well
rain sedge
did I mention I also have divine dash
opal token
If it makes you feel better, 32 Heat destroys me lol
rain sedge
it's fine a casual isnt supposed to do 40 all aspects anyway
rain sedge
yea but it's eris
also, there are still the 3 swords to go, which I really dont think I want to do
and the hades spear, which probably has to be done by serrated point or exploding/charged launcher
gaunt fiber
yea but it's eris
You think Eris is the easiest 50?
dire steppe
i still don’t understand hestia
the reloading feels so slow
maybe i just haven’t figured out the right animation canceling
are you supposed to do attack reload dash special
i need to watch some videos of high level hestia play to understand it
true fable
i dont like zag rail without spread fire
with spread fire its my second favorite weapon to play
ripe crane
Zeus is fun
surreal copper
is there still a cap on rewards from high heats?
i feel like i have a worryingly low amount of weapon upgrades
spring kettle
the cap is up to 20 heat, 25 if you're on hell mode
shy plinth
If you focus on prophecies and increment heat up slowly you'll get there
And weapon upgrades aren't really equally important for all aspects
opal token
Blah another good run dumpstered in Elysium by shield guys. They either kill me or kill me due to time lol
So I have a silly question, people generally take 2 god trinkets. Let’s say you want aphro Artemis to go for heartrend, for arguments sake. If you exit Tartarus with Aphro attack and Artemis special using Aphro keepsake, do you still equip Artemis keepsake just to ensure more Artemis boons? Bc if you hit Artemis “naturally” you don’t necessarily NEED Artemis keepsake anymore
gaunt fiber
you will not ensure more artemis boons that way, keepsakes have one charge
opal token
Well you could never see another Artemis boon besides the first one, no? Or is that super rare
gaunt fiber
that's rare but it can happen yeah
but keeping a keepsake you used to force a boon will only grant you the rarity effect
opal token
So if you found both gods you wanted in Tartarus, I should use a 3rd god for Asphodel
gaunt fiber
If I have my two gods I'd rather go for coin purse/acorn depending the heat etc
or athena
for high heat
opal token
Okay I’ve def been doing that incorrectly then
spring kettle
If I already have the second god I want sometimes I take the second god's keepsake anyway because of the higher rarity bonus so I can maybe get the duo
edgy arrow
okay wait
i always thought aphrodite did more damage than artemis on average, and arty only pulled ahead with T2 boons but that isn’t actually correct?
aphro: +50%
arty: +20% +15%*200 = 50%
they’re the same
sly remnant
assuming there is almost zero other + damage aphro is ever so slightly better. but that situation is almost never true in Hades: The Video Game
edgy arrow
okay yeah that’s what everyone says but mathematically how is that true
just because of consistency? or because of the free weak curse?
both fair points, but in terms of damage they’re identical
sly remnant
consistency yea. aphro is more reliably for owning people in tart
of course aphro's problem is in elysium+
edgy arrow
makes sense
yeah i guess i must have assumed people were saying she does more damage when they were talking about consistency
sly remnant
- damage is the most widely available source in hades
this is why arti is so good. because no one else has the access to crit
edgy arrow
delicious multiplication
sly remnant
lol thats true
weak sandal
onyx venture
It gets better if you keep going over 
opal token
32 Heat Talos fist start: rare lightning strike, epic ares special, epic lightning revenge boon (so set up for revenge duo) My choice now is rare Zeus call vs common Jolted.
Any recommendations on rare call vs common Jolt here?
Don’t know if it matters too much but I’m curious
daring hedge
either would be good honestly. fists builds up call pretty fast and jolted is just a great curse
common jolted is a little sad though
opal token
Yeah kinda wanted to take call and hope for better
Third choice was epic Zeus dash which I basically consider a blank? Is that wrong? Lol
Other than for selling to UC
daring hedge
there are much better dashes for sure, unless you lean extremely hard into T2 stacking and like, splitting bolt lol
opal token
Okay thanks for answering!
Oof..epic evasion vs epic Quick favor with Zeus call is also close.
Maybe it’s evasion bc I’m bad
daring hedge
epic hermes evasion is good even for good players at high heat
you could definitely take either of those pretty safely
also did not mean to imply you're not a good player lol
opal token
No no that’s me haha
daring hedge
i just mean epic dodge is always going to be a welcome boon
opal token
I understood. I meant like dodge is slightly more valuable the more likely you are to be hit
daring hedge
which, in all honesty, is pretty easy with talos fists
tight flax
Does it mean i suck if I beat heat 24 for 3 weapons but cant get pass elysium with the spear sword and fist. No extreme measures or forved overtime.
gaunt fiber
They are not easy to play
thorny wing
Melee is generally harder/riskier to play. Shield can Block though so that makes it easier than the other melee weapons.
halcyon flame
spear feels weird
thorny wing
It’s different for sure but I still love my Achilles.
halcyon flame
imo using fists is way easier than using bow or rail
that's coming from a kbm player though
halcyon flame
not many cases where movement feels weird
the aiming feels weird in a certain way
at least compared to gungeon
weird comparison but i'm still more used to how aiming works in gungeon
thorny wing
Never played that. But if aiming’s an issue I can imagine it being harder.
halcyon flame
when i'm firing an arrow it feels like there's actually an offset
halcyon flame
how much of an impact does sure footing have on heightened security?
languid vale
i think it goes down from 5 times trap damage to 3 times
edgy arrow
5 times to double, actually, assuming common sure footing
edgy arrow
sure footing is really good when you’re running HS
i’d much rather have a 60 damage hades urn than a 150 damage one lol
and that’s just common
languid vale
Heroic sure footing
edgy arrow
lol you can basically ignore lava with heroic
languid vale
It goes from 5 times to 0.25 times
edgy arrow
indeed
vital grove
how much of an impact does sure footing have on heightened security?
Random falling axe is no longer a death defiance.
twin python
Just tried 32 heat
I haven’t died to the furies since I got the game
I’m not cut out for that I think
halcyon flame
so... you died to the furies
halcyon flame
there's a guide for the "easiest" 32 heat setup in pins
twin python
Thank you
halcyon flame
i'm surprised you don't go em4 even at 32 heat
mossy zinc
EM4 is like 55+ pretty much.
vital grove
Superdad with Hl5 and FO2
Nobody wants that after a whole damn run
Think you're having a fast run
Savior skulls with clone
mossy zinc
What are you dying to?
opal token
Mm I’m going too fast and not dodging bc I’m racing this 5 min timer basically
Just beat Meg with 44sec left
But main issue I think is I feel like I can’t dodge and that’s probably just a mental thing
daring hedge
i know you've been using fists for this, and this might be a stupid question but
are you making sure to empty dash?
and not dash-striking each time and thus losing your iframes
that can be kinda big for fists while climbing heat
halcyon flame
so i should wait till the end of the dash to do a dash-strike with fists?
mossy zinc
Not necessarily. Sometimes it's best to not Dash-Strike at all and just empty-dash.
daring hedge
you can, but it's more often a case of just dash-striking or not depending on if you'd be in danger of taking a hit
yeah what nyaanyaa said
mossy zinc
In Tartarus you probably want to Dash-Upper more than Dash-Strike, anyway, because you can one-shot a lot of enemies with Dash-Uppers in Tartarus.
opal token
Dash upper with DC on seems awkward. I’m bouncing Back and forth between dc2 and 2 more HL. Not sure which is worse for me
halcyon flame
what's the easiest 20 heat setup?
true fable
did you check the pins?
mossy zinc
I don't recommend DC2 for 32 Heat at all. Certainly not for Malphon.
You play melee, you want enemies to be stunlocked.
opal token
Talos right now but yeah makes sense
halcyon flame
rail would be a better choice
mossy zinc
Well, Talos is a Malphon aspect. 
halcyon flame
or chiron for that matter
mossy zinc
Chiron doesn't want DC2 either.
spiral island
mossy zinc
I don't know why people always say that. Chiron gets a lot of damage from its Attack. That's always the first thing that you're doing before you press Special. You lose out on a whole lot of damage by taking DC.
A lot of enemies, in fact, you just want to kill off with your Attack quickly so you don't need to Special. But you can't do that with DC on.
halcyon flame
then what exactly am i supposed to do if the enemy just ignores my first 1-4 hits
true fable
?
just dont run DC2? take HL or something
chiron is very good at no hitting
chiron really just wants to avoid JS IMO
true fable
i believe
true fable
GL
opal token
Yes, thanks!
Have to load up discord for victory screen but Zeus strike/call/legend, ares special, divine dash, epic Reflex
Hammers were colossus knuckle/explosive upper
shy gulch
yooo congrats dude
opal token
That was hard! Thanks
rain sedge
Haelian just sold a 30% attack speed book at 40 heat eris
Haelian just sold a 30% attack speed book at 40 heat eris
Am I missing something? Isn't that huge DPS
shy gulch
to be fair I don’t value attack speed that highly without delta chamber
you’re limited by ammo
reloading is the time bottleneck, and attack speed doesn’t affect that
dire steppe
you can special during reload cant you
fathom burrow
That's the idea.
true fable
what were his other options tho
mossy zinc
@opal token congratulations!
strange kestrel
Honest question, what do you think it's the strongest weapon? I'm only heat 9, but I feel like chiron is just too good if you have dyo0nisus on the special
halcyon flame
there's no definitive "strongest" weapon
and you probably shouldn't be using dionysus on chiron
artemis is generally the best choice
strange kestrel
I can't like artemis
too much tied to RNG, even if the special of chiron has 8/9 attacks
halcyon flame
deadly flourish can do a lot of damage on chiron
strange kestrel
with dyonisus it's just a free full hangover is one attack
shy gulch
and like they said, the weapons are balanced enough such that there isn’t any definitive best weapon for high heat
fathom burrow
Mmm, Dio on Chiron sounds fun I should try that 😄
shy gulch
some are easier to use at higher heat, but there’s nothing definitively the best
strange kestrel
till now, the only ones that I find useless are the hidden aspects of the spear and the "uzi"
halcyon flame
uzi??
shy gulch
what’s the second one
strange kestrel
exagryph -> uzi
halcyon flame
zagreus?
shy gulch
rail goes hard but kinda needs the other aspects
zag rail is bleh unless u get spread fire
halcyon flame
i have come to the conclusion that poseidon builds on zag rail are underrated
strange kestrel
I usually go with the hestia one. The lucifer one is just terrible imho
strange kestrel
I tried lucifer, it's impossible to charge it even a little on normal enemies
I will probably try it a heat 0 and hope for a decent build
opal token
Pretend Lucifer is literally just the special
And you’ll do fine
The attack only exists to apply a random status like doom or chill or weak and to blow up specials
This is a wild generalization ofc but it does work
true fable
attack is really good lol
zeus attack lucifer still shreds
you need to use both imo
opal token
Yeah hyperbole saying it doesn’t exist for sure.
I haven’t been able to get used to it yet
fickle jetty
Does Calisthenics Program affect bosses?
tidal flame
It does
patent umbra
Follow up question to that: is it per health bar for someone like Hades or does it do it by total health? (ex: +15% hp per bar or +15% hp overall)
patent umbra
Cool, thanks
limpid osprey
It's funny how the Conditions I initially thought would be easiest are actually the hardest in practice.
I genuinely looked through the list on my first 1 Heat run and thought "Heightened Security" looks doable
Whereas now I'm basically taking Middle Management and Extreme Measures 3 as freebies
past field
It's weird how EM1-3 feel like freebies but EM4 often feels not worth the 4 heat
I mean I still play EM4 always because it's more fun, but I do think there are easier ways to gain 4 heat
limpid osprey
EM4 makes the hardest fight in the game substantially longer and harder
I do find the balancing on some of the Conditions to be really weird, though. Routine Inspection in particular
past field
honestly after only fighting a forced overtime, calisthetics program buffed EM4 Hades, when I go back to normal Hades it just feels so disappointing
like I reach the end and he's a joke, then I just sit there like "oh, I guess the run is over?"
I don't think it's fun to have the final boss be easy
limpid osprey
It's not that easy.
turbid bobcat
I tried FO2 once and it was insane, but then did FO1 and it barely felt different from a normal run
limpid osprey
I feel like Tight Deadline 1 should give way more Heat
past field
Wait, what? what did I say that got filtered?
limpid osprey
OH COME ON
frosty juniper
tight deadline 1 is fine for 1 heat, i can't see that being anymore.
past field
I mean I'm sure non-EM Hades is still hard if you have 5 levels of hard labour and terrible boons from like 40 heat of other pact mods
limpid osprey
The bot is suffering from the Sc-nthorpe problem
As evidenced by it just censoring my mention of a random town in England
past field
We're truly living in the future
People in the 60s imagined we'd have fully sentient AIs by now. Instead we have this 🙂
limpid osprey
This problem was named in 1996, I thought people would have stopped running into it by now
Stop using lazy text filters, everyone
Anyway, the reason I think Tight Deadline 1 should be more than 1 Heat is that having any timer is a big step up from no timer
limpid osprey
No timer means you can check carefully for urns, do all the Infernal Troves, etc.
turbid bobcat
36 minutes is pretty lenient
tidal flame
In that sense TD1 is free
limpid osprey
Maybe it is just a matter of nerve
past field
Tight Deadline is so weird though. With some weapons (like Demeter fists), it's honestly difficult to not make the 9-minute timer, but with some it's difficult to make it
well, by difficult to make it, I mean with a bunch of other modifiers
turbid bobcat
TD1 is usually faster than no TD anyway, since you don't get those 45 second survival rooms
past field
I don't think it's ever hard to make tight deadline 1 at low heat
limpid osprey
Maybe I just hate the time pressure
turbid bobcat
I find I do better with a time limit - encourages me to do better and go faster
main pelican
😭 i almost got my first 40 heat win but TD killed me at 20% health final phase - if only i didn't get a 5 sack
past field
I don't find time pressure fun either, and prefer to play without tight deadline if possible. Sadly it is often the best way to get a bit of extra heat 😦
limpid osprey
I've only ever used Tight Deadline once, for the prophecy, and I made it in 22 minutes without much effort
Meanwhile I feel like Heightened Security should be broken up into multiple ranks, ending with +400%
turbid bobcat
Before heat, my runs were like 35-40 mins each, since I wasn't pressured to go fast, but after using TD and being forced to go faster, it really helped speed me up. Now I consistently get 18-22 min runs
past field
Yeah, Heightened Security feels like it should be two ranks of +200% each maybe? I don't see anyone taking it until they're on 40+ heat
limpid osprey
How would changing it affect existing records, anyway? How did that sort of balance adjustment work in Early Access?
past field
Does anyone else really hate taking Approval Process too? I hate taking things that increase the dependence on RNG and remove choices. It's sadly sometimes one of the easier ways to gain heat but it feels so unfun
limpid osprey
Approval Process is a test of how flexible you are, and how much the RNG hates you
It's either trivial, annoying, or the worst thing ever
turbid bobcat
with AP, it's probably a good idea to never get chaos boons right? since you might get stuck with a -4HP on attack/special/cast
past field
I honestly think it was a mistake for the developers to add such a modifier in. Like, why make a modifier that takes away player choice and increases RNG dependence? It's one of my minor complaints with an otherwise amazing game.
past field
with AP, it's probably a good idea to never get chaos boons right? since you mig...
with two levels of it, probably
I sometimes use one level of AP
and I still always take chaos
spring kettle
I was over the deadline for my first try at TD2 with Hera bow, my next time taking TD2 with Hera bow was faster, probably because I took flurry shot
past field
I don't do routine inspection though, so I can re-roll in the rare cases both boons from Chaos have terrible downsides
tidal flame
@limpid osprey They just erased the Heat info for EA runs.
spring kettle
Depending on what’s your main damage, I find -hp special/cast can be basically free
past field
Yeah, though with something like Chiron, not being able to attack or special is awful
limpid osprey
<@430345490777899010> They just erased the Heat info for EA runs.
Well that's definitely not an option
limpid osprey
I honestly think it was a mistake for the developers to add such a modifier in. ...
It's not even remotely necessary to use it if you are looking to 100% the game
The highest heat threshold you have to hit is 32
spring kettle
Just take it once for the prophecy
past field
It's not even remotely necessary to use it if you are looking to 100% the game
I know it's not necessary, but it sucks to feel like it's the best way to gain heat
tidal flame
I honestly think it was a mistake for the developers to add such a modifier in. ...
They said that it's for runs where you want to give it all to RNG
limpid osprey
Why do you think it is the best way to gain heat?
tidal flame
Basically a meme run
past field
or like, I hate going to watch a stream of someone trying to push 40 heat, only to see them taking two levels of AP and restarting the run over and over if they don't get perfect RNG in Tartarus
turbid bobcat
do you have to complete a run with them to fulfill the prophecy, or just use them once?
tidal flame
The thing is
limpid osprey
If you don't like using a Condition, don't use it
limpid osprey
do you have to complete a run with them to fulfill the prophecy, or just use the...
OK, fair
spring kettle
Win a run with them enabled once
limpid osprey
Bounty goes up to 20 (or 25)
25?
tidal flame
Hell mode
limpid osprey
Huh
tidal flame
So you are not supposed to max out the pact
limpid osprey
That's a weird change to make for Hell Mode
tidal flame
You
spring kettle
They thought most players wouldn’t be able to do 32 heat, and on steam only around 6% have done 16 heat
tidal flame
Because Hell Mode baseline is 5 heat
limpid osprey
Has anyone done a verified unseeded max Heat run yet?
spring kettle
Tailesque has done 60 with Rama bow
spring kettle
Yes
tidal flame
Basically high heat runs essentially go against the design of the Pact.
spring kettle
The extra dash is very good for surviving
tidal flame
Depending on how high you go
limpid osprey
Everyone's sweet spot should fall between the easiest and hardest options. Ergo, no one should be able to do the hardest option
tidal flame
In that sense, AP is fine
spring kettle
Hades says that you’re being very irresponsible with heat if you put it up at like 25 heat apparently
tidal flame
because at low heat, sub 32, AP is very doable
only when you run into CP, JS, RI, that the lack of boons really hurts.
that said AP is rarely fun
spring kettle
Yeah, AP and RI aren’t a good combo
tidal flame
I would love to see it changed also, but to advocate for the dev's perspective.
spring kettle
But hey, you can still get rerolls in run because of that one house contractor upgrade
limpid osprey
That reminds me: what was the initial Heat mechanic in Early Access? The wiki seems to indicate they tried something really different
fervent locust
I already get runs with no attack boons being all the way to thesus fight
can't imagine how bad it'd go with approval process
hah
spring kettle
I don’t tend to force ares because he might offer you blade rifts while you want doom and vice versa
tidal flame
I think max heat went to something like 120 lol
past field
one level of approval process is really not too bad as long as you have re-rolls (ie no routine inspection) but it's so unfun
tidal flame
@onyx venture sorry for ping but do you happen to know how the heat system worked wayyyy earlier in EA?
fervent locust
how much heat does it give?
tidal flame
before the Nighty Night update
past field
how much heat does it give?
first level of AP?
fervent locust
yeah
tidal flame
2/3 I think, so 5 total
past field
two heat
spring kettle
And approval process stings really hard if you get denied legendaries and duos you really want
past field
second level gives 3 but with only one option you're truly just praying to RNGsus
spring kettle
Shackle strats
fervent locust
idk I don't trust my rng for AP
spring kettle
Don’t have to worry about the gods giving you a bad attack if you never get an attack
past field
And approval process stings really hard if you get denied legendaries and duos y...
ya, I find it easier to use on weapons that do fine without specific builds and just need half decent attack/special boons. Like Demeter fists
fervent locust
i get no attack boon runs, I only got 1 legendary in 60 games, and the list goes on
tidal flame
how is your mirror doing?
limpid osprey
Gods' Pride is definitely better in terms of RNG resistance
spring kettle
I still think I get offered duos I want a fair amount of time even with pride and not legacy
fervent locust
for legendary I have it at 0 atm, since broke
spring kettle
Plus makes your basics better
fervent locust
yeah, I get duos a lot too, probably the only good rng I ever get in this game
past field
Yeah, I tend to prefer just solid basics instead of trying to go for certain duos or legendaries
limpid osprey
I usually run Gods' Legacy, since it makes things more interesting
past field
Duos are probably more fun
limpid osprey
I'm still working my way through the Bounties and such. I run Olympian Favor rather than Dark Foresight normally, since I want the meta-currencies
fervent locust
can you get two duos in one game?
limpid osprey
can you get two duos in one game?
Oh you have no idea
onyx venture
<@!358386662666928130> sorry for ping but do you happen to know how the heat sys...
I know a reasonable amount about it, what do you want to know?
fervent locust
I've always wanted to use ares + athena and aphrodite duos in the same game
apply both effects and dash like a mf
limpid osprey
I know a reasonable amount about it, what do you want to know?
How exactly did it work?
spring kettle
I want deadly reversal and heart rend in the same game
limpid osprey
The wiki just says you could collect Heat in-run somehow?
onyx venture
So at the start, 
was a resource that dropped from the Hydra fight and then after you got it there for the first time was available as a regular room reward as well, yes
You had to earn heat before you could apply it to the pact
The maximum heat increased a few times, before it changed to the current system it was somewhere over 200 max
limpid osprey
What does that actually mean?
onyx venture
120 heat was roughly equivalent to 32 heat now
limpid osprey
Was it spent on the Pact or unlocked?
fervent locust
Merciful end + curse of longing, that was the name, I forgot
limpid osprey
So they were trying to mix up their old Shrine/Limiter/Titan Star mechanic?
What did 1 Heat do?
Was it just much more granular?
hollow lynx
more like overly inflated
hollow lynx
the current system is a lot more complex and imo more granular than before
onyx venture
The new heat system rebalanced the costs a lot and also changed how some pacts were broken up
Like maximum HL (which wasn't called Hard Labour) was 400% before if memory serves
limpid osprey
It's also sounds more similar than the initial Heat system was to their previous games
onyx venture
Hopefully that answers your question(s)
fervent locust
<@!296354200097521688> https://discord.com/channels/456889434672201729/725021639...
holy
limpid osprey
That was a good run
fervent locust
I can imagine
limpid osprey
Basically all of the lightning ever
fervent locust
also divine protection
limpid osprey
Scroll down from that post for more details
limpid osprey
It basically spawns a projectile with minor homing capabilities
fervent locust
Just die if an enemy hits you
knowing me I'd die to lava
that's how I lose most of my butterfly buffs
limpid osprey
Splitting Bolt is particularly nuts because most of Zeus's effects already hit multiple enemies
limpid osprey
You have to master the flow of combat
fervent locust
for lightning I tend to use the twin fists with long knuckle
limpid osprey
That's true for everything, but especially for Exagryph
You should always be either firing or reloading, and while you are reloading you should be dashing, casting, or using the special
fervent locust
I'm on heat 8 with mosts weapons and I have exagryph at heat 0... qq
I really need to learn how to use it
limpid osprey
As a rule, do not hold your ground when firing. Your shots don't stagger, and there's no benefit to emptying the clip if you can do something else while reloading anyway
Know when to reposition.
turbid bobcat
divine dash is pretty much necessary with it unless you're perfect with timing your dashes, since the rail can't destroy any projectiles
fervent locust
I didn't know that
limpid osprey
I disagree. Even a basic dash makes you invincible for the duration
hollow lynx
any non-luci rail can destroy projectiles
tidal flame
unless you're perfect with timing your dashes
limpid osprey
In one of the conversations with Thanatos, it is revealed that the dash is technically a short-range teleport
limpid osprey
> unless you're perfect with timing your dashes
God knows I'm not perfect, and I can still do it
tidal flame
semantics, if you can dodge with iframes then you are perfect at doing that
fervent locust
which god
fervent locust
In one of the conversations with Thanatos, it is revealed that the dash is techn...
interesting
turbid bobcat
I find I take damage a lot of the time when trying to dodge passed projectiles without divine dash
limpid osprey
semantics, if you can dodge with iframes then you are perfect at doing that
It only has to be perfect if you cut it really close
Unless you are running Ruthless Reflex or a relevant Boon, there is no benefit to dashing just before getting hit. Leave yourself room for error
That's harder with Forced Overtime, of course
tidal flame
Again, if you can dodge with i frames then that's good, it doesn't matter if you dodge with .00000000001s margin or .01 margin. A dodge is a dodge, in that sense it's perfect.
limpid osprey
Also, remember the whole "dash = teleport" thing. What matters is where you start and where you end up. Divine Dash is good because you deflect at both ends and in between.
tidal flame
Athena Dash helps because you don't dash into projectiles, don't get i-frame canceled because of dash strike
Though I wouldn't go as far as saying it's absolutely necessary
limpid osprey
If after dashing you are on top of a projectile, whether you get hit depends on whether you have Divine Dash
But that doesn't have to be the case
fervent locust
Athena Dash helps because you don't dash into projectiles, don't get i-frame can...
Huh
dash strike cancels your i-frames?
limpid osprey
Dash-strikes cancel the dash
tidal flame
yeah
fervent locust
that... explains a lot
limpid osprey
Dash-strikes are (by and large) quicker weaker attacks. Don't think of them as dashes.
If you commit to one at the wrong time and place, you'll get hit
Unless you have Divine Dash
fervent locust
Interesting
limpid osprey
Which covers Dash Strikes
fervent locust
thanks for the info
shy gulch
yeah if you're attacking during your dash, you lose iframes
which is why lucifer can be difficult to use at first because you're constantly attacking during your dash
meaning you have no iframes, iirc
but the same principle applies to any other weapon's dash strike
limpid osprey
Anyway, my advice is to not think about iframes too much. If you rely on them, you'll leave yourself less of a cushion.
true fable
??
limpid osprey
Just try to dash behind enemies, around cover, etc.
true fable
all of high heat is knowing when to empty dash
positioning is a huge component but empty dashing is a fundamental
limpid osprey
Yes, but I'm giving advice for someone who has trouble with Heat 0 Exagryph
What exactly is "empty dashing"?
tidal flame
we need a name for that
limpid osprey
I feel like you could just say "dash" yeah
Versus "dash-strike"
Because, you know, that's what the game does
tidal flame
Dash alone is still confusing though 
shy gulch
well having a term of "empty dash" is to distinguish from dash strike yeah, which some ppl might conflate the two but
limpid osprey
Or "standard dash"
shy gulch
its kinda just semantics
tidal flame
Yeah
limpid osprey
"Basic dash" implies no Boon
fervent locust
maybe dodge but there's the dodge rng mechanic
shy gulch
i think empty dash is fine as a term
limpid osprey
Yeah, Dodge is taken
tidal flame
I usually think empty dash means no boon dash
limpid osprey
When in doubt, use the terms given by the game.
tidal flame
because dash slot is empty
fervent locust
Dodge dash?
iDash? tho empty dash is aight
limpid osprey
A dash in the nick of time is a Near-Miss, for instance
A Dash-Strike is a (lowercase a) attack, not a dash
Except where Divine Dash is concerned, which could probably be clearer
tidal flame
This is getting so deep into the semantics lol
limpid osprey
Meanwhile, the Hunter Dash boon, despite taking up the dash slot, doesn't actually affect the Dash at all
tidal flame
Dash Strike is still a Dash imo
Because you do Dash, your position does change.
You just have an attack on top.
limpid osprey
Your position changes with most things
tidal flame
Not with attack
hollow lynx
why... why not just say "dash"
limpid osprey
That's what I'm saying!
fervent locust
While that's true there's a different term for a dash-strike
true fable
somehow this is the most off topic this channel has gotten this week
hollow lynx
and say "dash-strike" when it's relevant
fervent locust
which means
edgy arrow
oh boy
true fable
0 heat and dash semantics
limpid osprey
OK, let's move on
true fable
smh
edgy arrow
y’all having a fun time rn huh
shy gulch
nah lets let this tangent keep going
hollow lynx
this just feels like an odd hill to run circles around lmao
edgy arrow
so a dash is a dash
idk this seems controversial
limpid osprey
Earlier we were talking about 120 Heat = 32 Heat
Which actually makes sense in context
fervent locust
idk this seems controversial
I mean, if you go by a dash strike is still a dash, but with an attack on top. then a basic dash can be a dash strike, since you can hit enemies with a normal dash if you have a boon for it, so I think dash and dash strike should be considered different dashes
opal token
What do we call this then!?! —
fervent locust
dash
at max I propose idash, or keep using empty dash tho it can be confused as boonless dash
hollow lynx
semantics abound
dire steppe
i think empty dash is fine tbh
hollow lynx
"attack" and "dash-strike" are proper terms used by the game and have proper definitions lol
dire steppe
it’s emphasis that you have to i frame certain attacks
true fable
im gonna keep calling it an empty dash 🤷
dire steppe
isnt onyx a lucifer player so dash strike doesn’t even exist
waxen relic
there's no dash-strike but there's still empty dashing and not empty dashing with lucifer
alpine sleet
I can't find it
true fable
alpine sleet
ty
gaunt fiber
Nice debate around the notion of dash folks
tidal flame
shut up
gaunt fiber
Well
true fable
🔥
true fable
congrats!
true fable
spear is ez if youre willing to reset for flurry jab put in the time
mossy zinc
An empty dash in Hades is a dash without any attack just like an empty jump in fighting games is a jump without any attack.
opal token
I thought that was a blank dash? 🤫
As I get muted for bringing that conversation back
For a 32 Heat sword attempt, which aspect is probably the easiest?
tidal flame
probably poseidon or nem
broken dawn
for starters, is there any spreadsheet or listing for what each weapon aspects tends to go well ? in regards to boons, etc
so far i've only found one that talks about speedrunning weapons and such
opal token
Pinned in builds and combat
broken dawn
tyvm
tidal flame
I don't think it's there
broken dawn
i'm either blind or it's not there
tidal flame
There is a guide in #h1-for-new-players but that's for vanilla weapons
I think you are better off just asking directly
shy plinth
Are you talking for high heat or in general
broken dawn
in general should work, i think
shy plinth
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1DorDu9hRVO2kHZN0aZOY1eUwkxdtmmg06-05dDuli_4/edit#gid=680603877 I made this sheet a while ago, it's certainly not perfect but will give you some direction
broken dawn
it's just that optimization tends to happen in these channels i suppose
i'll check it out it it seems that it doesn't help in my next run 😛
either way, thanks
opal token
Oh I’m sorry I misdirected you
Was there something specific you wanted
For the moment haha
broken dawn
yeah, i'm doing an excalibur
opal token
For what TENDS to go well...fast weapons (rail, fist for example) want status or proc boons like Zeus/Dio on strike. Slower weapons want %dmg. Specials same thing
opal token
So like Excalibur you want %dmg strike and %dmg or Doom special
broken dawn
yeah, figured from the dmg
opal token
And you could put in some sort of longer range cast like Zeus cast if you want to be make it easier to deal with skulls//baby chariots
broken dawn
i think i saw some sort of spreadsheet
with clean boon visual
can't seem to find it as of late
ah, found it
@opal token generally, are chaos deals percieved just like devil deals in isaac ? additional power with little to no loss
opal token
I haven’t played Isaac but yes you generally want to take Chaos boons unless you’re passing up a chamber that’s like exactly what you want
Imo at least
They definitely can kill you so I dunno about “no loss” but haha
tidal flame
<@!429087039917654017> generally, are chaos deals percieved just like devil deal...
Yeah, there are some bad punishments though
So there is some loss
opal token
Like if you’re looking for some aphro duo boon and your choice is miniboss aphro or chaos, I’m taking boss
broken dawn
i mean apart from previous run where i've gotten +41% dmg taken for elisium bossfight
it's not that big of a deal
tidal flame
I mean -4 HP on attack can be brutal depending on weapon
broken dawn
the penalties i mean
tidal flame
Like fists or rail that's nono
broken dawn
oh yeah, but those give something that is beneficial to casters
spring kettle
Yeah, the attack penalty is one of the harshest
tidal flame
Also some punishments like +74% enemies
broken dawn
so you don't take those if you won't mean to go for it
tidal flame
are burtal on heat
spring kettle
Even on cast builds some cast weapons just load it up on attack
tidal flame
Basically Chaos is fine
I would avoid Chaos on AP2 though
Unless you like to live dangerously
spring kettle
Some chaos curses can be almost free
Like I opted for -hp special on Hera because I never use the special over enemies drop inferno bombs
mossy zinc
I'll take -x HP per Attack/Special if it's in Tartarus.
mossy zinc
If that's the best reward.
opal token
Rip my perfect nemesis boons/hammers lol
vital grove
Excalibur hits really hard and is super tanky
opal token
Always crush with nemesis until Elysium
broken dawn
i'm 200hp before the halway shop in tartarus
but idk how long this will help
attack is kinda way too slow
and dash attack seems weird
vital grove
Yeah you have to dash between attacks
broken dawn
combo ?
vital grove
Getting a backstab with the last hit will level a small house
broken dawn
mobs don't survive till second hit
vital grove
Kay, do it your way then
tidal flame
well you are not going to one shot bosses or most enemies in asphodels/elysium
sly remnant
recommend checking out some peachhead00 gameplay for arthur tips
true fable
^peachhead 🍑 ❤️ 😍
opal token
On chaos gates, how bad do we consider hidden chamber rewards
sly remnant
for time or completion?
true fable
it just really depends
vital grove
Not too bad, usually
north dove
I find it to be one of the least harmful curses
vital grove
You can often have 1 exit in Tartarus especially
sly remnant
for completion hidden exits is easy. for time its fine in tartarus
gaunt fiber
vital grove
Oh retrash that machine gun zagbow
gaunt fiber
one of the most absurd runs I've ever had
vital grove
30% swiftness and flurry shot lmao
gaunt fiber
Rush delivery combo, everything on zeus and ofc free Fully Loaded
north dove
machine gun zagbow was much worse than I expected tbf
spring kettle
I’ve only gotten fully loaded once for the prophecy and I had like every other possible Artemis boon
vital grove
I usually try and get Artemis attack, aphro special and go from there
gusty kite
Is zag shield actually good or is retrash like god of gods 
true fable
zag shield can be good
gusty kite
RetrashToday at 9:56 AM
45 heat unga-bunga shield, probably the most busted run I ever had. No acorn charges lost on EM4 
gusty kite
excal 
sly remnant
all of the shield aspects are the most different
in terms of build/play diversity
it makes them a lot of fun to play
tidal flame
i think the same can be said for bow
gaunt fiber
and spear
gusty kite
I originally used chaos when I was brand new, been using zeus lately, it got me my 32 heat
gusty kite
sly remnant
nah get used to it. it'll make you better
broken dawn
i almost went for hp for attack for it
gaunt fiber
i think the same can be said for bow
Zag is baby Rama btw
sly remnant
and at high heat zag and achilles are both just flurry jab weapons
gaunt fiber
because people think that
When I'll hold the OwO 40heat WR
i'll prove everyone wrong
alpine sleet
is styg sword bad for high heat/speedruns?
opal token
How does Chaos Death defiance interact with Stubborn defiance? You get a free life yeah?
opal token
People have cleared huge amounts of heat with everything
gusty kite
People have cleared huge amounts of heat with everything
hades professor has cleared all aspects at 50 heat
gusty kite
Anyone fluent in korean so we can translate his tier list 🇰🇷
gaunt fiber
Zag sword was a nightmare for him
gusty kite
ooh yeah, he instantly put it in D tier
mossy zinc
Anyone fluent in korean so we can translate his tier list 🇰🇷
Maybe you can find somebody to help with translations in #hades-localization.
gusty kite
was more jesting, I have some KR friends 
sullen minnow
Copy copy
gusty kite
I made some slight adjustments to that list to suit my playstyle more, but it's a good starting point
removed two LCs and put two DCs cause I was using zeus shield which could pop them very quickly
and maybe some other small changes, but that was the main one, having some healing was pretty nice
opal token
I did similar
sullen minnow
Yeah I feel like thats a no brainer
I’m thinking about rama so I should be able to eat up blue shields
thank you @mossy zinc
no thank you
sullen minnow
Yeah I might just keep TD to 2
mossy zinc
TD3 is way easier than putting 6 Heat in something else.
gusty kite
aforementioned zeus shield meant I played super safe and slow
mossy zinc
Or 3 Heat in something else.
sullen minnow
I struggle with being consistent with TD3 on cruising runs
But that is a fair point to make
The Answer Is Always Git Gud
mossy zinc
Yeah, you're gonna have to up your game for 32 either way.
sullen minnow
For a little extra aid, I take it Rama isn’t a bad suggestion to be walking into this with?
gusty kite
HL5, LC2, CF2, JS3, EM3, BP2, MM, UC, FO1, DC2
that was my 32heat
dire steppe
my first 32 heat took me forever lol
gusty kite
yeah mine was a 30 odd minute run
sullen minnow
Any other standouts? I’m partial to fists, gun, shield, broken bow aspects. Anything but sword this high up, really
mossy zinc
JS3 DC2. Why. 
dire steppe
no i mean it took me like 2 weeks to actually clear
sly remnant
For a little extra aid, I take it Rama isn’t a bad suggestion to be walking into...
rama hard ot play but very good. play what you like.
mossy zinc
Rama is top tier.
sullen minnow
For sure
mossy zinc
I don't think it's that hard to play. Hard to optimize maybe, not hard to do well with.
tidal flame
Rama is hard to play in the sense that Power Shotting can be hard on it
mossy zinc
And yeah, you can do DC2 on Rama just fine.
tidal flame
In term of both timing and finding space to do do so
gusty kite
JS3 DC2. Why. <:shadeembarassed:520448365809500175>
because zeus shield + zeus boons go zap zap zap (and I needed to make up the heat from not going TD or LC4)
dire steppe
which aspects has retrash not 50d
sullen minnow
If I am trash at powershotting am I going to have a bad time
gaunt fiber
Just got a shop with hidden reward 
mossy zinc
Well, you don't need to power-shoot. It's optimal, but it's not necessary.
sullen minnow
I kind of like rama because I feel like I can build around that with hammers and still have a decent time
dire steppe
i was under the impression he finished all of them
mossy zinc
It still hits hard either way.
sullen minnow
For sure
sly remnant
32 does not require optimal play. don't hyper analyze
tidal flame
^
sullen minnow
Indeed. Is one stack of RI asking for trouble? Or just under-value for the heat you can purchase elsewhere?
tidal flame
Depends on who you ask
sly remnant
don't do RI at 32
dire steppe
RI1 is a very bad idea
tidal flame
Sometimes I do do RI at 32
sly remnant
you can
tidal flame
But as you see
sullen minnow
Okie doke
tidal flame
People differ
mossy zinc
Hang on, I'll show you an easy setup you can do.
sullen minnow
The way I think about RI1, I can just put on my mental glasses and pretend I’m playing through the eyes a lil nub who hasn’t unlocked RNG manipulation yet and I can live with that.
sly remnant
just so everyone knows what nyaanyaa is posting a troll 32 pact
sullen minnow
But I hear people say it’s trash value for heat, which I get
mossy zinc
What do you mean troll?
sullen minnow
Lol I’m just going to shut up and try something, thank you guys for your help
mossy zinc
sullen minnow
I still want to see said troll pact
mossy zinc
I did this first try. It was really good.
mossy zinc
You could also try this build, mirror, and pact. https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/725021639506526249/782268720479207474/Hades_1177.png?width=734&height=413
sullen minnow
Lol
mossy zinc
"really good"
I won, right?
sullen minnow
That hestia looks silly
mossy zinc
I always say m not a speedrunner.
dire steppe
Boozecalibur is the best build
mossy zinc
I just play for the clear. 
sullen minnow
shackle builds have a special place in my heart
dire steppe
Change my mind
sullen minnow
I mean it’s the ultimate flex so I kind of rightfully can’t
sly remnant
Change my mind
which peachhead record would you like to see that does not use it
opal token
Mm do I take epic urge or epic blade dash on Gilgamesh? Only Aphro strike so far.
I could see blade dash being quite good
Bc I already have the bonus dashes
north dove
absolutely blade dash
sullen minnow
But dash is probably better
dire steppe
blade dash requires high skill but is op
sullen minnow
Someone tell me why real quick
dire steppe
it does a lot of damage
sullen minnow
Like, I can guess at it, but I’d rather hear from a pro
sullen minnow
Yeah that feels right
Anything special that can make it tick? Or just git gud with placement?
Does his vacuum cast t2 interact with blade dash at all?
sly remnant
blade dash has really good standalone value that doesn't require a lot of investment. when running AP2 UC CF2 its great value for the slot for taking DC2 off
sullen minnow
Ballin
dire steppe
great for taking DC off? then it’s drunken dash time
sly remnant
drunken dash unironic at high heat
north dove
true
mossy zinc
Drunken Dash seems to apply multiple stacks super fast.
north dove
every dash applies 3(?) stacks I think
dire steppe
the weird thing about drunken dash is you don’t want any other boons from dio if you get it
dire steppe
^
sly remnant
you just need value for the slot
sullen minnow
Lol indeed
sly remnant
back when we ran trippy flare on beowulf drunken dash was good for blackout
dire steppe
you cant leave RI out of that equation either
opal token
Okay Retrash: blade dash Gilgamesh is my new ❤️ lol
Don’t have to aim when you can make 20 of them lol
sly remnant
ye losing dark foresight is huge
sullen minnow
Ok
gaunt fiber
you cant leave RI out of that equation either
Evryone has opinions, RI is fine if you say otherwise you're passive agressive
opal token
Just take the hint from 6 ppl posting 32 Heat builds without RI that it isn’t worth it
gaunt fiber
#h1-builds-and-combat taught me that
dire steppe
I mean yes it’s obviously possible to win the game while having RI on
sly remnant
it just requires a change of playstyle that most people aren't ready for yet
for their first 32
RI also bad for speed
sullen minnow
So based on looking at all these I’ve arrived at HL3, LC4, CF2, JS2, EM3, BP2, MM, UC, FO1, DC2 and TD1 for 32
Got my mirror all purple, save the last 3 slots. Any suggestions there before I head off?
SD perhaps?
dire steppe
which weapon
sly remnant
SD is mandatory for LC4
sullen minnow
Rama
sly remnant
i'd remove FO1 and put the 3 heat somewhere else
dire steppe
take td2
sullen minnow
Ok, that sounds like a good trade. Suggestions? To pull 3 heat out of my ass I might take RI1, I haven’t minded it much in the past.
Ok, that’s a good suggestion
dire steppe
honestly even td3 isn’t bad on rama at 32 heat
sly remnant
HL5 is fine with FO0
mossy zinc
I don't think getting multiple Hangover boons is a problem because Bad Influence is just so good.
spring kettle
Take like every chaos gate and go to every shop
sly remnant
hangover is safe but slow. in terms of flat damage zeus is normally just better
however if you run TD1 or TD2 then hangover OP
sullen minnow
Oh? How so?
dire steppe
imagine zeus strike arthur
sly remnant
Oh? How so?
its incredibly safe. you apply the stacks and can back off
sullen minnow
Makes sense. Play lame win game 👌🏻
mossy zinc
Why not both? Lightning damage with Bad Influence.
sullen minnow
Alright, HL4, LC4, CF2, JS2, EM3, BP2, MM, UC, DC2, TD2
mossy zinc
You can get Scintillating Feast with that combo.
sullen minnow
Got my SD and I’m pushing the button, wish me luck
sly remnant
scintillating feast is v good
dire steppe
btw am i missing something about stubborn roots
sly remnant
its trash
dire steppe
people keep saying its 48 hp per minutes
but 60/0.8 = 75
also that stubborn roots with enough hp can "heal past the timer" which also just seems wrong
since its flat healing
does it also gie 2% ambiguity bonus or something
sly remnant
it just delays the timer
it doesn't outheal it
but its effect is considerably less
dire steppe
tidal flame
I think they meant tanking through the timer
Hence the mention of the 350 HP also
You can't outheal 5 damage/sec
spring kettle
but it can never outheal the timer, only delay it
sly remnant
dio
sullen minnow
For big #s
dire steppe
i'd say dio because bad influence
sullen minnow
Ah, ok
I will be giving up my doom to do it, but I believe in the heart of the cards
dire steppe
bad influence gives off orange boon vibes but its actually not one
tidal flame
Either is fine? At least with Dio you get Duo maybe with Artemis
sullen minnow
Yup I’m not scurred. May RNGesus bless me with festive fog or a replacement boon
gusty kite
hmm dio, I should do another demeter fists dio run
opal token
Gilgamesh: colossus knuckle, explosive upper, rush kick. This is clear Explosive Upper right?
sullen minnow
Explosive upper is forever fists MVP
I don’t know that I ever intentionally regular special and not dash special
No matter the aspect
And AOE curse on a melee build 👀
sullen minnow
I mean, someone’s gotta apply maim sooner or later
So real quick stupid question, LC4 is going to bone me with Sisyphus’ healing, correct?
sullen minnow
Gold it is
I got offered attack and dash from dio btw, both common
Turns out my grandpa’s deck does have one or two bad cards
dire steppe
don't take drunken strike on rama
sullen minnow
Oh well lol
No I was YOLOing for a special replacement for my doom
But I still got that going for me which is nice
sly remnant
thats a low percentage play
sullen minnow
I believed
dire steppe
i didnt realize you meant you were trying to go for a replacement
i thought you already were offered one
sullen minnow
Nah I just got tempted lol. I dont regret it, he’s in my pool now. A chance at festive fog is worth it alone
On that note, out of curiosity does anyone actually know what the replacement boon offering chance is?
I’d be curious
dire steppe
10%
sullen minnow
Oh
dire steppe
per slot(?)
sullen minnow
That’s honestly better than I expected
Good to know, thank you!
Oof, alrighty
Scraped my way out of tartarus
Had better runs, but had worse so far.
Real question, how is healing accomplished beyond just dying once per room with LC4? Is that just it?
opal token
The only other ways are like guan Yu spin, cursed slash, etc
I think cursed slash works
Not sure tho
Guan Yu does
sly remnant
all the healing hammers
opal token
The general answer is you don’t
sly remnant
other than that its just dying with stubborn
mossy zinc
Touch of Styx for extra healing.
sullen minnow
Gotcha
mossy zinc
Lucky Tooth in Elysium is pretty good.
mossy zinc
?
sullen minnow
Lol oh well
mossy zinc
You take what she gives you and appreciate it. 
sullen minnow
So between giving up rare doom for epic heartbreak flourish, epic wave of despair, or rare different league (13%dmg), any choice advice?
sly remnant
wait
sullen minnow
Gut tells me wave of despair to apply AOE weak
sly remnant
did you not start arrowhead
sullen minnow
I started friggin aphro
sly remnant
.....
tidal flame
see, rookie mistake
sullen minnow
And spend 3 keys over 2 boons gambling for her attack