The more experience you get I feel the easier Tisi and Lernie get
#h1-high-heat-strategies
urban crater
bronze viper
It's definitely subjective. I feel the exact opposite. Furies gave me so much hell until I iterated enough times and Lernie just gets harder.
mossy zinc
With AP2 etc., it's not like you have much more of a build when you get to Lernie without heavy routing. You can only really bet on having more HP.
proud jay
yeah imo lernie is harder
urban crater
AP2 is the only thing that would impact the build strength by that point and I don't really run it 'naturally'
Lernie just kind of evaporates every time I fight him
While I never die on furies, they always seem to have a higher potential of taking out a ton of my health than Lernie
The only time I've died to Lernie on high heat was after taking way too large of a health hit from the furies fight
Lernie might have killed me but he wasn't the main issue there
Though I do need to stress that I'm specifically talking about Meg when I mention the Furies
Alecto is a chump and Tisi is predictable
Meg is stupid with max HL and FO
tardy path
Yo Meg hits hard on max HL
Along with the fact that she covers so much area with her attacks that it becomes a pain to face her as a melee build
urban crater
oh yeah its completely absurd, especially with no mirror
one dash is nowhere near enough to get away from her aoe attack
and she is the least predictable of all 3 furies
tardy path
Compared to Alecto?
urban crater
alecto is super predictable
tardy path
Hmmm
urban crater
she does the same stuff every phase
urban crater
Tisi just has a really telegraphed pattern
Alecto doesn't have a pattern but she lets you know what she's doing with her rage meter
tardy path
Fair
urban crater
And most of her attacks are easy enough to dodge with one dash
tardy path
Then I agree
urban crater
Tisi is slow and specific enough to get out of range in time with one dash
Meg is just going to smack you around sometimes lol
wraith imp
my opinion: charon is the hardest boss in the game. lol
shell imp
i don't think he is harder than hades, its just that you can face Charon a lot earlier
trim sigil
And that you face him way less than others
wraith imp
i faced him asphodel with chaos shield. He wrecked me. Took all 3 death defiances at 35 heat.
Walked into hades fight with decent/good build but far from optimal build. hades was lucky to take 100 points of health from me.
maybe it's because i haven't become familiar with charon's attack patterns but i dread the charon fight more than any other fight.
Also, this run proved to me that merciful doom attack/special combo doesn't work as well on chaos shield as it does on zeus shield.
shell imp
Charon does hit a little too hard
his Melee does absurd amounts of damage, and lacks a clear telegraph
wraith imp
The worst is when there are waves of gas coming at me which I'm trying to avoid and charon is standing nearby and then boom....2 wacks of his oar...death defiance immediately gone.
And his oar has a wide reach. It might not have the 270-360ish reach of hades' spin sttack but it feels a lot quicker.
shell imp
it has almost no windup, is the problem
wraith imp
yep, yep
Btw, was lucifer nerfed? i...uh...tried to replicate a build I saw and i struggled A LOT with lucifer + zeus
shell imp
Lucifer is good, but Zeus doesnt work well with it
wraith imp
what
shell imp
you are better off with Athena
wraith imp
hmmmm
shell imp
being able to defect from the front is really nice
you can stand in front of Asterius for a few seconds and take no damage
wraith imp
i was trying to replicate a haelian lucifer+zeus build I saw and it seemed completely overpowered.
shell imp
they might have reduced the number of times it Procs
shell imp
because last time i ran Zeus Lucifer, it was trash
Zeus was basically +33% attack bonus, which is garbage
Athena was doing more, AND giving me defect
wraith imp
that said...haelian did seem to get the 2 perfect hammers for it.
i'll try athena...
what about aphrodite? do the love lasers work?
shell imp
Havent tried that one
wraith imp
alright, i'll give that a go at some point.
shell imp
I only recently started using Lucifer, and only did up to 10 heat so far with it
btw, with Athena, the beam itself does not deflect anything
the defection comes from Zagreus himself
shell imp
it works a bit like Aegis shield
when you fire, anything that hits you in the front gets defelcted
as if you had a tiny shield in front of you
though, it can be inconsistent, as some attacks dont seem to be deflected
but it works well on the big chariots, for example
when they run into you, you dont take damage if you fire directly at them
wraith imp
but aegis shield's chaos special deflects, that's the run i just did...i was deflecting any incoming projectiles from the multi-shield blast
shell imp
maybe thinking of Aegis doesnt help. It will make more sense once you try out Athena's blue laser
wraith imp
interesting. i just saw what you mean
one of the lumbering dudes in tartarus just made contact with me and deflected popped up.
i'm not liking the feel of this build.
btw, what players love about zeus is that his beam chain bounces. so if a player can group enemies together, a beam at one enemy can take out multiple enemies. with athena (and everyone else) it's one by one.
shell imp
my issue with Zeus is that the damage is really bad against bigger threat
especially bosses
but of course, Zeus is always good against groups
that's his thing
Demeter might be interesting
constantly chilling everything
wraith imp
but the problem (in my mind) is that she's also enemy by enemy. i like weapons that clear out groups. hence, i struggle with the bow (which is my least favorite weapon in the game).
shell imp
Bow at least has piercing
but Hera helps, because you can burst down single enemies very fast
then pick up the cast ammo, and kill the next one
wraith imp
i don't like any of the bows. i can't get past 16 heat on bow and i stopped trying. /shrug
shell imp
i havent used anything other than Hera, so i might be biased
it was my second weapon to clear 20 heat
after fists
mossy zinc
Zeus was basically +33% attack bonus
That's just false.
shell imp
it was for me
lucifer maxed out around 650 daamge, while zeus registered just over 200
viscid fulcrum
Does anyone have advice for the time limit heat? I'm having trouble with the 2nd tier of it.
shell imp
2nd tier is too much for me. I only use 1st
viscid fulcrum
Yee I have no idea how to do it. 1st is still hard for me unless I'm using fists.
Maybe it's just practice at a certain point 
mossy zinc
Practice, aggression, high DPS build, pause when choosing the exit, take Chaos Gates + mid-biome shops + Patroclus in Elysium to save time, min-max the resources you get in Tartarus and Asphodel (you have plenty of time there, so use it).
urban crater
^ always choose free rooms (chaos is included in this) and pause when doors unlock so you can make your choice without being under pressure
proud jay
Btw, was lucifer nerfed? i...uh...tried to replicate a build I saw and i struggled A LOT with lucifer + zeus
@wraith imp not sure if it's up on the spreadsheet but i finished a 45 heat run recently and it was terribly difficult
still went with zeus though
proud jay
in other news i just finished a new high heat run after a bit of break from that
demeter fists now at 48 heat
urban crater
Nice
wraith imp
@wraith imp not sure if it's up on the spreadsheet but i finished a 45 heat run recently and it was terribly difficult
@proud jay
at this point, for me it's either hestia+artemis or nothing on rail. zag aspect is great with spread fire if i can get merciful doom combo but hammer makes it iffy.
i made a suggestion on feedback channel to make rocket bomb as the new special on lucifer since the current special is just not all that well liked.
bronze viper
Eh I think it's fine I just wish I could map a detonate button or something
wraith imp
nah, i hate it because enemies can trigger it in strange ways.
bronze viper
I don't think it has to be replaced, it just needs a little QoL love
wraith imp
i like things where i'm in direct control. the special feels very passive by comparison
bronze viper
The passivity doesn't bother me as much as the lack of consistence especially with FO2. If the arc was shorter and we had a way do detonate on command it would do a lot to make it feel good.
wraith imp
i agree with that.
the special being slow is annoying.
bronze viper
As it stands, trying to use special to set up Privileged Status is... tenuous at best. Which is weird because you get a lot of free opportunities to throw bombs during reloads or between dashes
wraith imp
Yep. Hence, I don't even bother with the lucifer special.
And we sunk 15 titan bloods for that?
Compared with all the other legendary abilities so far, it's weak because it's not all that useful or practical.
bronze viper
That's kind of a weirdness with several of the secret aspects. The blood upgrades are usually conditionally unnecessary. Excal's is just more damage reduction,
Beo's best build doesn't use Dragon Rush for damage, Rama's best quality is special spam, Hellfire is... hellfire. Excluding GY for obvious reasons lol
wraith imp
excal special is incredible though...especially with greater consecration hammer upgrade.
you can stand on traps and take no damage
and projectiles are slowed
bronze viper
Yeah but it's a lot because of the slow effect and not because you ACTUALLY want to get hit at higher heats
With HL5 you do not want to be using the damage reduction part of the aspect often lol
wraith imp
well...i usually go for lambent plume and hermes dodge boons (especially the call one)...plus athena/dio/aphrodite damage reductions.
so HL5 doesn't end up having all that much impact...
also
when i use excalibur, i usually have poseidon dash with razor shoals so enemies struggle to get near me
i die more from td1/2 than damage on exaclibur in high heat
proud jay
excalibur isn't very fast at killing stuff though
wraith imp
yeah, that's why nemesis will always be superior
but i've kinda figured out how to avoid taking damage by dashing between the 3-sequence attack
it helps a lot
when i first started playing, i kinda stood stationary, figuring out i could dash in between the sequence was kind of a gamechanger for me
bronze viper
With FO2 I've kind of just given up going for the triple attack, even with dashes in between. It's close to unusable against two of the furies, EM3 and Dad as well.
wraith imp
but i find myself not even getting to the 3rd sequence. dash attack strike with excalibur (especially starting with aphrodite epic) helps set a high damage floor...enough to take out most enemies in 1 hit.
bronze viper
I'm speaking at 40+ though. Excalibur feels kinda busted for me up until 32
proud jay
i wouldn't even want to play excalibur with FO2
wraith imp
i learned a lot from watching wriste play with excalibur.
i think he beat 46 (?) heat with exaclibur.
proud jay
that's correct
bronze viper
I"m pretty sure I watched that run. Artemis attack and dash?
In chaotic rooms it was literally just dash striking lol.
bronze viper
Why
wraith imp
it's not explained well imo
until recently, i didn't realized they were separate things
bronze viper
Imagine an invisible Stygian Soul ammo bar, but for your dashes
wraith imp
like...how is dash attack damage calculated for lucifer?
bronze viper
With Excal you can Dash-Strike + Attack, but if you do it too quickly you run out of dashes, and you'll start the attack combo instead.
Oh i have no idea for Lucifer Rail how it works
Damage-wise
wraith imp
yeah, we were talking about that few days ago...seemed like no one had a good grasp on it.
on something like the bow, the distinction is clear.
on rail? not so much.
proud jay
yeah dash-strike and attack effects are all over the place
there are some attack related hammer upgrades that affect dash-strikes and others that don't
but at least when the text says dash-strike it doesn't affect normal attacks
and dash-strikes in general behave differently on all weapons
wraith imp
also, hoarding slash doesn't seem to affect dash-strike which was a bummer...
wraith imp
got up to 3,000 coins and couldn't see an appreciable difference.
wraith imp
i tried a few times. Couldn't tell a difference. Even sold all my boons in one run. Still couldn't tell a difference. But attack did go up. So that's kinda how I knew.
aspect of beowulf / naegling's board + charged flight + dread flight + aphrodite epic special to start + aphro/poseidon sweet nectar duo + lots of poms + eurydice ambrosia delight is now my favorite build. (just found out about it a few days ago and achieved it just now.)
doing anywhere from 900-1200 damage per throw while hitting 3-6 enemies is so good.
best build in the game imo
large dps that can be spread across multiple enemies. perfect for dealing with bosses/loners or groups.
if i ever attempt a 57 heat run with rng manipulation, it'll be using that build.
the one negative is that naegling's board doesn't block head on while charging up bullrush; it blocks to the side. however, if i press attack, it blocks head on for a split second which seems to be enough for negating damage before (charging for) bullrush.
proud jay
damage control is sort of problematic for charged flight
wraith imp
yeah, i considered that...
hence, i figured that i would need a dash or some kind of aoe cast (like ares' slicing shot).
i'm partial to poseidon's tidal dash + razor shoals. (that's my favorite dash in the game...even ahead of athena's dash.) and i want to get sweet nectar.
I suppose ares' blade dash might be a decent substitute for poseidon's dash.
tidal flame
how do you accidentally beat 45 heat with Nemesis?
trim sigil
Nemesis isn't the subject to question there, 45 heat is
But yeah that's pretty 
moment
proud jay
i just gave it a try
wasn't supposed to be a serious attempt
but i managed to do it again, this time recorded
i've been practicing nemesis a lot for speedruns so i kinda wanted to see how it performs in high heat
as long as you have deflect and extra dashes it's pretty smooth
wraith imp
lulz
players out here beating 45 heat like it's nothing
i'm outchea getting wrecked on 15 heat with a bow
feels_bad_man.jpg
😑
trim sigil
Struggling on 0 heat with rail is my jam tbh
wraith imp
Rail is hit or miss for me. i can win up to 40 heat (with hestia/zag) or die at 0 heat at hades with lucifer. Just this morning, i lost to hades with lucifer on 0 heat. i walked in with 3 death defiances and 320+ points of health. i lost my mind during the hades fight when he started spamming his projectile and then went on rampage with spin after spin.
the highs and lows of me being a scrub gamer i guess...
sharp cobalt
Lucifer is a weird aspect. Honestly I prefer even Zag rail to it.
wraith imp
my struggles with lucifer are ruining my confidence. frankly, i think it's bad (re: at least nowhere as effective) without concentrated beam and/or flashfire. not having jolted for zeus didn't help matters either.
also, merciful doom doesn't seem to really work well with lucifer's beam. (tried a lucifer run last night with athena beam and ares special and it did not go well.)
sharp cobalt
I've made it work, but with Ares beam and Athena dash.
Ares special applies doom too slowly for this.
wraith imp
i think it's more than just the special being not good...the beam with athena deflect doesn't work the way i expected.
someone told me last night that the beam didn't deflect and it turned out to be right which was so disappointing.
besides. i think zag rail is a much better choice for using ares attack (with spread fire hammer upgrade) and athena dash/deflect to do merciful doom combo. requires a lot of short zigzags but it works beautifully. but it does put a lot of stress on fingers.
proud jay
high heat list needs a bit of updating:
45 nemesis sword
46 zag spear
46 achilles spear
48 demeter fists
busy day yesterday 
proud jay
42 ME 
sword
mossy zinc
@proud jay why don't you just make your own list and add the handful of runs that aren't your own yourself?
urban crater
Oh there's a list?
It also still puts my 57 heat at ongoing rather than completed
I plan to take Nem sword, zag fists, and achilles spear up there too before 1.0 currently
proud jay
im rly interested in your secret poseidon tactics
mossy zinc
It lists the routed 57 under "notable mentions".
urban crater
Why though? Its a done run
Kinda seems a bit weird that its next to multiple stitched videos too
I did it live lol
mossy zinc
The list isn't for heavily routed runs.
urban crater
Why?
Seems a bit elitist and also you can't really tell if someone has a heavily routed run or not
And many of these runs are somewhat routed
Where is the breakoff point?
frail crane
Are we talking about Krasher's list or Nyaanyaa's list?
urban crater
The one pinned
proud jay
it's sort of a grey area
urban crater
I don't expect Nyaa to do anything positive for mine since she doesn't like me 😂
I presume its Krasher's since he posted it
@autumn sable
frail crane
So Krasher's, I thought the say on that was Krasher wasn't going to judge runs for routing?
proud jay
the pinned one is krasher's
urban crater
People are going to have to be more specific about how far something is routed to count/not count so it can be optimized for that
Because many of these runs are routed
Just not nearly as much as mine
proud jay
i mean there is no good solution rn
anyways it's really up to krasher how he wants to categorize the runs in his spreadsheet
it's not like it's a mega competitive scene
urban crater
True though it does seem largely arbitrary
proud jay
it is somewhat arbitrary
mossy zinc
Well, putting it under "notable mentions" isn't the same as judging it as less worthy or whatever. It's just an attempt to keep heavily routed runs separate from the typical high-heat runs that have at most some minor routing that naturally occurs from repeating a seed. (A lot of them also have virtually no routing since they were done first or second try.)
The 57 is obviously routed, so in this case it's not difficult to make a distinction. Once there are more routed runs, I'm sure he'll consider separating "routed" from "notable mentions", but since it's only one now, there's no real need to do that.
urban crater
I'll leave @autumn sable to tell me whats up
And many of those runs are routed through Tartarus
If I would be told where I should route to maybe I'd do that so that I'm not told I'm not really beating the game by playing it differently 😂
proud jay
you totally are beating the game
urban crater
Doesn't seem that way when people like Nyaa really want to make an exception for my runs
proud jay
we actually have this conversation about unseeded/seeded/anti-routed/routed runs often, it doesn't have to feel this hostile imo
urban crater
How is it hostile?
proud jay
idk i'll drop out anyway
urban crater
All I'm saying is that I think the distinction is arbitrary and I feel a bit persecuted here and now you're basically telling me my feelings are unwelcome here lol
Really not liking how toxic the speedrunning and high heat stuff has gotten lately
proud jay
i agree that it's arbitrary and we just kinda have to deal with that due to the way seeds and rng work
at least that's my opinion
urban crater
Why do you have to deal with it though?
Are there any other 57 heat runners routing?
proud jay
people want to have a place to showcase runs that aren't heavily routed
urban crater
Its not like this is an epidemic
Its just excluding purely me at this point
I guess I should just dip since SGG approves of this considering its pinned in their server
proud jay
it's nothing personal
urban crater
Its one person's list that's pinned by the creators of the game itself
It definitely feels like I'm unwelcome playing the game I've come to enjoy now
I just want to play the game this way and enjoy it and I got people like Nyaa breathing down my neck telling me I'm not welcome here
mossy zinc
I've never said anyone wasn't welcome.
urban crater
Already got a death threat from the speedrunning server
Which is why I left that awful place
urban crater
Perhaps I'm the only one getting toxicity but either way I don't like it and maybe I think I should just leave and uninstall
honest charm
seems a tad excessive for a response to a routed run
"you manipulate RNG? time to die, scum"
like what even
urban crater
They told me that I was "making the game a worse place nobody wants you here"
i don't want to talk about it
honest charm
jeez
I'm sorry dude
urban crater
I don't want them to see this and find a way to bother me again
frail crane
you're definitely making it better for me--I've been inspired by how quickly you made it to 57
urban crater
anyway peace i guess
clever otter
just stepping in to say that aside from the first two pins here, all the other pins were made by mods and not supergiant themselves. im sorry this is such an inflammatory topic but the point of the pins is definitely not to make anyone feel unwelcome
urban crater
playing this game aint worth it if im getting threats and excluded over it
trim sigil
That really took a weird turn
Personally I always saw "mentions" as runs that aren't traditional but deserve a place on the document regardless
proud jay
yeah the high heat list doesn't really exist as a leaderboard anyways
bronze viper
I mean... we can say it's not true all we like, but routed runners are definitely consistently treated like second hand citizens in this channel.
mossy zinc
?
trim sigil
Can't disagree with that notion tbh
proud jay
still it's not like everyone has to like someone else's way of playing the game
idk i do high heat just because it's a fun challenge
mossy zinc
I have zero interest in routed runs, personally. But I don't think of them as any "less" for playing the way they like.
mossy zinc
I don't see much I can study them for that I can apply to my own runs because that kind of RNG is just not something I get in my runs. I have a passing interest in unrouted speedruns because there are some strategies and tactics that might prove useful at high heat.
trim sigil
It is probably the attempt to separate routed and non-routed runs that ends up being a boiling point. There is no 100% way to define one, and there is almost no difference in applied skillset despite routed looking way easier. So both sides cannot find a compromise and insult each other indirectly
I don't think anyone regular in this chat is heavily elitist towards either of methods, but it just happens naturally
proud jay
imo this channel is sort of a niche corner of hades that can't even afford to have any elitism
autumn sable
Of course my list is arbitrary. I made the list many months ago and made very arbitrary rules for arbitrary things so that I could keep track of interesting things
I can’t target any exclusion that my rules happen to do since I made them long before anyone did any of them and things change over time
If people truly enjoy playing the game the way they want to play then it shouldn’t matter what other people think
Also, my miscellaneous category is simply miscellaneous til there’s enough people to make a full category
I have links that preface anything done in blood price with specific goals and discussions that I included in case people are confused
mossy zinc
I'm curious about, like, what different playstyles people have at high heat.
I think mine is "unique" in that I play very close-quarters with any weapon? Like, moreso than others. Probably from learning the game mainly with Malphon and trusting my reactions at close range a lot too much.
I dunno. Maybe I'm way off lol.
wintry sluice
what heat level is considered high heat? i feel i'm too low right now to have good input
mossy zinc
I usually think when I watch others oh wow they keep so much distance, maybe I should do that more . . .
There's no real cut-off point.
I guess for most people it's like 32+-ish . . . maybe?
bronze viper
The game acknowledges up to 32, which is an intuitive cut-off point.
bronze viper
But for the purposes of discussion, "high heat" usually just means that you now have to deal with combinations of pacts instead of just looking at them in isolation.
mossy zinc
You might still have good input even if you haven't done anything above 20 or whatever.
I would say there's some point eventually where you can't really understand the problems you're facing without experiencing it first hand. But it's not a clear cut, either.
wintry sluice
I typically adjust my play style to the weapon i'm using. Adamant rail, i'm always playing further away (especially because I use aspect of hestia most often). Twin fists, i'm usually super close and dashing strike constantly. But those are really just base level thinking. If I get lot of Poseidon boons with Adamant Rail and I'm wall slamming, I get up close and do a lot of dash strikes too.
mossy zinc
Yeah, I definitely do that, too.
But I think there are still differences in playstyles that one might be able to pick out that go beyond that.
Like, there's a certain meta for how to play Malphon. But within that, there's still a lot of room for expression and using your strengths.
wraith imp
I think mine is "unique" in that I play very close-quarters with any weapon? Like, moreso than others. Probably from learning the game mainly with Malphon and trusting my reactions at close range a lot
too much.
@mossy zinc
I'm also like this...
which is a detriment for me on a weapon like bow.
I've had to start over on bow's aspects at 0 heat and unlearn my tendencies to adapt to it.
hallow stream
should be mindful using the word arbitrary
it implies meaninglessness, or lack of reason
neither of which I think form the basis of the things we do or decide
trim sigil
40 heat doesn't have a strong reason to be the exact threshold, to be fair
It probably just stemmed from when the first highest heat run was 40
mossy zinc
40 is just a round number. That's really all there is to it.
trim sigil
Or that
Tbh from the casual standpoint, it'd probably be 15+, just around 2nd skelly statue 
tidal flame
It probably just stemmed from when the first highest heat run was 40
I mean that is also arbitrary xD I just think that heat that cannot be done consistently is high (which makes 32 heat quite... low).
mossy zinc
Most people can't do 32 consistently.
tidal flame
do God play dice?
cyan stag
Albert Einstein disapproves.
sharp minnow
Quick question, do if i go lets say 5 heat, do i get the rewards from previous heats? or is it something i have to do 1 heat at a time?
bounty rewards
honest charm
you get the bounties from the first uncompleted heat level
so if you've never used heat, and you jump to five, you get the bounties from level one
if you do it again, you get the bounties from level two
and so on until you get the bounties for level 5. Then you have to increase heat to get more
sharp minnow
Ah alright thanks alot!
rapid ore
Not high heat but can somebody give me a run down for the best PoP modifiers for 16 and 32 heat?
honest charm
for 16 I do FO2, TD2 and EM3
but there are probably better options
for 32 I do 16 + MM, BP2, and whatever else seems easiest for the weapon I'm using
rapid ore
Cheers, any tips for keeping the time limit? I struggle at 9 minutes, doing 5 seems insanely hard
trim sigil
You only need to fit in 7, not 5, but there aren't quite many tips to save time apart from practicing rooms and focusing twice as much on damage
One is to pause any time you have a decision to make, like choosing a chamber reward passage
Also remember that tartarus is somewhat loose with optimal setup, asphodel is as free as it can get, elysium is main run killer on TD and styx is heavily random but 4 and 5 sack can easily murder the run too, while 2 sack is somewhat free
honest charm
a lot of people use TD1 and put the extra 3 heat elsewhere
proud jay
to save time in elysium, always take the mid-shop, and miniboss tends to be faster than a normal encounter
also go for patroclus if you see him, but i guess you would do that anyway
wraith imp
To add to bablo's post,
Getting the fountain room is helpful. And taking chaos in elysium is a good way to save time (provided you're reasonably well-equipped to deal with the temporary curse).
tidal flame
How not to save time in Elysium:
Take AP2
Take Chaos gate
Get forced to +72% enemies
TFW
lucid coyote
More foes, not even ~~once ~~twice three times
crystal iron
Speaking of that curse, I wonder, is that the only curse you can potentially carry all the way to final boss? I assume "standard encounter" counts only towards the final rooms in Styx, but I'm not sure.
honest charm
you can't carry any chaos curses to the final boss; they count every chamber in the tunnels
crystal iron
aww
it's just that this curse is different as it says "for the next X standard encounters face more enemies", so it doesn't tick down in miniboss and boss rooms.
was thinking small rooms in Styx don't count
burnt ravine
How do you change your playstyle to account for Forced Overtime? 16 heat was fairly easy for me but hopping up to 32 I always get trashed by the timer in Elysium boss. But I tried using FO instead of TD and really suffered for it
honest charm
Oh, I misread
It's really just practice
you'll get used to the new timings if you play with it for a while
just be super cautious and don't take risks for a while, and you'll get it
burnt ravine
Would you recommend jumping straight to FO2?
honest charm
yes
burnt ravine
Okay thanks, will do
honest charm
that way you only need to learn 2 sets of timings instead of 3
burnt ravine
That makes sense
mossy zinc
The primary factor isn't timing, it's speed. You need to actually be able to react in time, and you're facing more attacks in less time, so you need to be able to do that consistently. That takes practice.
You need to know exactly what to look for to identify enemy attack startups because you need to react immediately. There are very few attacks where you need to time your dash.
Usually you just dash immediately when you see the startup.
ashen rain
Shield guys 
mossy zinc
I just want to emphasize: the important part of my comment is that you can practice it.
And there are important factors besides response time, like positional awareness.
mossy zinc
Just punch him in the face with Curse of Agony. Show him what a real curse is.
bronze viper
Hades on FO2 is kind of an exception. There are plenty of timings to learn in that fight, and it's worth doing so or your runs will get brickwalled at him.
Definitely worth making a save and just grinding the fight out
edgy arrow
yeah i might have to do that
couple of times i've had smooth sailing all the way through then been absolutely smashed by hades
bronze viper
With FO2, timing the dash to iFrame his spins or deflect his skulls on reaction, or practicing different adds combinations (though from personal observation there does seem to be a limited pool of adds that can be summoned in a given seed) are all pretty important. FO2 Super Elite Chariots would be obnoxious enough to deal with without Dad breathing down your neck.
edgy arrow
lmao chariots
yeah deflecting the skulls is a big one i need to practice; i swear i can only do it by accident atm lol
rapid ore
Thanks Lysol#2050, CrabBar#6873 and bablo#0976 (didn't want to ping you all) made it past heat 16 easily with your tips
honest charm
Congrats!
are you going to post your victory screen?
rapid ore
Ahhh i skipped it by accident because I was smashing buttons hahahahha
32 heat seems much much harder now that I've tried it lol
Any tips for that lol 
I tried max level enemies only but it seems to based on boon and room RNG
honest charm
for 32 I do 16 + MM, BP2, and whatever else seems easiest for the weapon I'm using
I usually max out hard labor, which gives 28 heat all told
and then I take RI1 because it's practically 2 free heat, and put the other two points somewhere it doesn't look like it'll be a problem based on the weapon I'm using
a lot of people max out lasting consequences and use stubborn defiance, though
mossy zinc
yeah deflecting the skulls is a big one i need to practice; i swear i can only do it by accident atm lol
Keep your distance. If he runs to you, he'll do the spear thrust or spin attack. But if you see him flash and start up an attack from a distance, it's 100% gonna be the skull throw. And then, if you have Divine Dash, just dash perpendicular time to him when he throws it.
bronze viper
Learning to play with Stubborn Defiance gives you 4 "free" heat.
mossy zinc
That's the one way to deal with it. The other one is always keep moving perpendicular to him, then his thrusts will 100% miss you even if you're constantly in close range, so that way you can just focus on deflecting the skulls and i-framing the spins.
That's for phase 1, anyway.
edgy arrow
I think i’m trying to dash after i see the skull, which now i think about it is probably too late (at least with FO2)
bronze viper
i personally find phase 1 much harder because of the adds. Phase 2 is a much purer experience, though a lot of the skill of Phase 2 is managing Urns and Skulls on the ground. Some builds do it way better than others, but for instance, you want to make sure you have an urn-free hidey hole behind a rock in case he starts the 360 degree spin right next to an urn (so you can't go for his dead zone)
rapid ore
Thanks again @honest charm I'll give that a go
Phase 2 is much easier for me too
The worst part for me is when he spawns enemies in phase 1 though
mossy zinc
Phase 2 is easier, yeah. It's a lot scarier with Personal Liability, though.
edgy arrow
yeah phase 2 sometimes messes me up but phase 1 is just so chaotic
with the adds, that is
mossy zinc
Phase 2 is pretty chill until he does his thrust > thrust > skull combo into immediate 360 beams lol.
While his urns are out, of course.
bronze viper
For builds that can't clear skulls or urns easily it's definitely a headache, but it's a consistent headache
mossy zinc
DC2 makes that fight so much harder for a lot of builds.
bronze viper
Lol, imagine if urns had DC2
crystal iron
If urns had DC2 they wouldn't have been a trap, therefore making them safe for HS
mossy zinc
DC2 + Exalted summons is just awful.
edgy arrow
DC2 makes that fight so much harder for a lot of builds.
big mood
“i’ll just whack that skull- oh wait, i’ll just whack it again- oh wait, i’ll just-“
mossy zinc
You often don't have the time to kill off the shades, so they just resurrect for free.
They start resurrecting almost immediately, too.
bronze viper
Yeah, particularly with super elite greatbows, the general strat being "I'm going to hide behind this rock for 5 seconds now" so sometimes the shade you focused gets a freebie
mossy zinc
Or you have to i-frame one spin attack, and that's usually enough for them to resurrect before you can kill them lol.
bronze viper
It's hard to not get spoiled with Chaos aspect in that fight in particular. Shields autokill urns, shades and skulls even with DC2, you can safely DPS from behind rocks, you can block spins, skull explosions and lasers (idk about Urns though).
All of that stuff can certainly be overcome with any aspect, but it's definitely an un-learning process, I imagine a huge portion of the 32-clear community did so with Chaos
edgy arrow
someday i will learn to play this game with weapons other than the chaos shield
today is not that day
bronze viper
Lol, it evens out. Once you continue stacking heat past a certain threshold you actually have to play remarkably efficiently with Chaos to meet deadlines.
mossy zinc
As in, get Epic Thunder Flourish and Epic Jolted or die.
bronze viper
lol, yeah basically
mossy zinc
(and don't take CP2)
bronze viper
Lol, yeah I'd imagine not.
It's fine, Rama is like one of two aspects that doesn't RIP to DC2, so it balances out. There isn't an aspect that cares about neither.
But there are unfortunately aspects like Hestia that care a great deal about both lol
And Zag bow
mossy zinc
I actually default to JS3 CP2 DC2 TD2 with Malphon. But in turn, I don't want EM3 lol.
daring hedge
I wish dad urns fully "materialized" faster so it'd be easier to full sweep them as they come in 😔
mossy zinc
I usually just let Hades sweep them lol.
bronze viper
Or the agonizing arc of the Skulls before they're hittable
daring hedge
Most of the time it's like "okay now they're in" [release] [they're all intact]
mossy zinc
But I guess you have his spear, so you might as well do it yourself.
daring hedge
Lol
mossy zinc
Do a barrel roll!
daring hedge
Damn now I have to
mossy zinc
It's intergalactic law.
daring hedge
Punishing sweep is just a barrel roll after all
bronze viper
It'd be a fun thought experiment to trade. You get skulls and lasers and he gets FO2 spear baby spins with Punishing Sweep, and triple Dash Strikes
daring hedge
Hades with zag player mobility actually scares me now lol
bronze viper
Split the difference. You get 2 full bars, you can use lasers on the second one, but no, not the 17k lol
mossy zinc
I imagine Zag has a boss HP bar from the perspective of all the shades that have to fight him, actually.
"We got him, guys!"
bronze viper
I'm sure plenty denizens of the Underworld have put in F10 reports about Acorn.
mossy zinc
"OMG NO ONE TOLD ME THERE WAS A PHASE 2!"
frail crane
Sometimes I'll have 4 boss phases in a single room :P
daring hedge
"WHY ARE WE DOING NO DAMAGE TO HIM, ASTERIUS? THE FIEND!"
edgy arrow
zagreus is a hacker confirmed
honest charm
the thing bout those shades
is that they never get better
frail crane
I dunno, Pact is kinda like them getting better
honest charm
zagreus doesn't need hacks, his opponents are all the noobiest of noobs
mossy zinc
Such noobs that you beat them all clean on 50+ Heat. 
bronze viper
I mean... that's a LOT of handicaps before they can actually win consistently lol
honest charm
give me a break Nyaanyaa Mewmew, I've intentionally reset my file twice
I haven't had the time and resources for 50+
mossy zinc
You're just turning off Zagreus's hacks, right? He doesn't need them.
daring hedge
But lysol that's what multiple file slots are for
mossy zinc
give me a break
"No time to rest."—Zagreus
bronze viper
I've intentionally reset my file twice
@honest charm ... but why
honest charm
or clear on the first run, then take on 50 heat
because God Mode and Hell Mode are not permitted
bronze viper
Strictly speaking that should at least be TAS possible without TD2 lol. Probably even up to 53 heat
honest charm
... but why
I just do it every time I get tired of the game
its worked so far
honest charm
yes, you can
daring hedge
But lysol is all about wiping things clean
bronze viper
I started playing other games to help with the Hades burnout in anticipation of Switch release. On RoR2 now. No regrets.
honest charm
but lysol is all about wiping things clean
daring hedge
Hey you can't just steal my message
honest charm
it was better than mine
think of it as an homage
mossy zinc
Plagiarism.
bronze viper
Also it's humbling to be absolutely irredeemably trash at another roguelike lol.
mossy zinc
What's humbling?
astral gull
but lysol is about wiping things clean
daring hedge
I'll see you all in court
edgy arrow
it’ll be hard to make a case
there’s no records
because lysol is all about wiping things clean
mossy zinc
I judge that @daring hedge and me will be the impartial jury. 
honest charm
I just died
tardy path
Elysium is just a vibe check at 32
rapid ore
Uhhh will I ever get 32 heat then
bronze viper
what aspect and pact setup?
It matters a lot, you could just be unnecessarily handicapping yourself
tidal flame
Happy to help with more info, also
rapid ore
I did FO2, TD2, EM3, MM, BP2, RI1, HL maxed out, the trap one and 1 on the shield one
Using Lvl5 chaos shield
bronze viper
What build are you going for?
bronze viper
As in what keepsake are you starting with?
It's totally doable to start with Coinpurse or whatever but it takes a lot more experience to do so
rapid ore
Ah usually Zeus -> other God -> health -> tooth
And the dusa companion
I usually save it for a boss or a long room
bronze viper
Kk, so I would go down to TD1 for sure, and take CF2, UC
The nice thing about Zeus is that he only cares about himself
So you don't need to buy that much stuff
I know you're dying before TD2 is an issue, but it will be
rapid ore
Yeah i Was already dreading the shade warriors in Elysium
bronze viper
Second, I'd learn how to deal with LC4 and cut some HL in exchange. It lets you make more mistakes overall in a run at the cost of being able to make less mistakes in one individual encounter.
crystal iron
When I did my 32 heat run I avoided the hardest things (so no TD, no HL, no FO), because max HL makes every hit way too punishing, FO makes the game harder overall and TD wouldn't work with everything else I put. I was ok with things taking forever to kill (max JS, CP and even DC) if it means they are not too difficult to kill.
bronze viper
DC2 is also very manageable on chaos
crystal iron
Yep
rapid ore
I dont mind DC at all but its only 1 heat and I thought there isn't much difference between HD4 and HD5
Maybe I should try a long run defense focused kinda build
bronze viper
So I think the setup I would probably go to optimize my shot at 32 heat would be LC4 CF2 EM2 BP2 MM UC FO2 HS RI2 DC2 TD1. That's 33 heat, but you probably trim on CF or LC. Conversely you can also pull points from CF or LC for JSx
FO2 is just worth a billion (6) heat and I'm too used to having it on at this point.
Note also that LC4 assumes Stubborn Defiance
Go only Zeus. Take Athena as your second god(dess) for Divine Dash, Athena's Aid, or an extra DD (which are easy to get in Asphodel)
rapid ore
thank you, I'll give this one a go too!!
sharp cobalt
I'd swap out LC 4 for some Hard Labor probably.
Having some ability to heal is fine.
A split of 2 and 2 is better I feel.
bronze viper
Yeah that's possible. I guess I'm forward thinking to Hades where each point of HL matters. But splitting should help you get to that point especially since I cut EM3 from my loadout
bronze viper
Or just wait for him to do any animation into a shield then attack lol.
EM3 is wayyyy harder for me on Chaos than Dad is, yeah
sharp cobalt
EM 3 is pretty tough. Mostly because of TD though.
Since otherwise you can use safe strats and be mostly fine.
rapid ore
Ok I think I've burned myself out already grinding on 32 heat
I'll see you guys in a month or so when 1.0 comes out hahahah
edgy arrow
nice!
generally we post wins in #h1-victory-boasting
tho this is a pretty high heat win so fair i guess idk
mossy zinc
I think Tailesque tends to post his high heat victory screens here, too. So there's precedent.
I don't, personally.
edgy arrow
fair enough
thick harness
hi room 🤗 i'm trying to "complete" the game by getting 20 heat bounties. all is manageable except rail. is zeus attack on lucifer really the way to go? TD seems to kill my run pretty hard in elysium (ofc i can swap TD with something else but what i'm wondering is if hestia > lucifer)
proud jay
Hestia is a different playing style but I consider it the safer weapon
Also if you can get used to catching the special on Eris it's quite good
stuck shore
@thick harness I've completed a couple of 20 heat Rail runs so far, and it's the easiest weapon for me, tbh. For me Hestia is the best aspect of it (although sometimes I'm relying on it a bit too much, hehe).
Rail's attack is good with Zeus (fav), Dionysus, Demeter. Artemis is also good, but feels a bit useless without Hestia, because the Rail's base damage is small. With Hestia, though, it's 1k crits time)) And if you get used to combining Hestia with Artemis' dash... Ho-ho-ho))
I don't end up using Special as often as I should, but I like upping the dps on it with Aphrodite/Artemis/Ares/Poseidon/Demeter. And if you're able to get Daedalus upgrades like Cluster Bomb or Rocket Bomb, Special becomes 3 times more useful and reliable. But if you can get your hands on both of them at the same time... It's hard to fail a run when you can shoot 5 freaking rockets at a point-blank range. Final Boss doesn't stand a chance))))
And about the range. It's good. Good enough to do an almost no-hit Final Boss battle) In general, I like staying at a range. It's easier to do backstabs when you're up-close, but I find that a lack of stunning on Rail's attack, makes it harder than with most other weapons. Ideally, you're always on foot and always at a range, but hey, it never works for me)
stuck shore
And I think this is a pretty easy 20 heat set for a Hestia Rail
https://imgur.com/a/sd8PWwX
gray pebble
how can people stand to play with hestia when it's still bugged? Isn't primed when you enter a room even if you reloaded just before entering it. and if you reload too fast after shooting it doesn't reload
mossy zinc
Those aren't bugs.
gray pebble
well let's just say it didnt use to be that way and when it changed it went from being my favorite weapon/aspect in the game to a tedious one that you'd have to pay me to play
edgy arrow
i don’t play hestia much but having to reload at the beginning of a level rather than the end doesn’t sound like a huge deal
mossy zinc
It's still the most mobile aspect in the game.
ornate jacinth
@edgy arrow you have to reload at the beginning anyways
if you reloaded at the end of the last level you logically should retain charge to the next one
it's not like you went on a 3 week vacation between rooms
edgy arrow
sure but it doesn't really make much difference, you're still reloading the same number of times
it works the same way as the chaos shield
stuck shore
@ornate jacinth This kind of thing is way more noticeable with Demeter's Fists. With Hestia it's a mere inconvenience, with Demeter, however, you need to attack 12 times to get the charge
radiant cipher
you need 12 hits, not attack that many times. so if you manage to hit a cluster of enemies special charges faster
also i started pushing into higher heats, why are people not using hard labor and jury summons? those are literally the only ones im running along with heightened security
edgy arrow
i mean, i use them
i think the problem is that they're potentially exponentially more dangerous when combined with other heat options
HL5? no worries. HL5+EM3+FO2? rip now i'm losing
proud jay
@radiant cipher jury summons makes elysium problematic with TD2
mossy zinc
I think there are probably more 40+ runs with HL5 than without, and a lot of them have at least JS1.
tidal flame
New TD should fix that.
rose pine
man I thought running cali program isn't a problem
until EM3
the bull is too thicc
thick harness
hi room 🤗 i'm trying to "complete" the game by getting 20 heat bounties. all is manageable except rail. is zeus attack on lucifer really the way to go? TD seems to kill my run pretty hard in elysium (ofc i can swap TD with something else but what i'm wondering is
if hestia > lucifer)
thanks to your encouregement, i went back to hestia (without TD) and cleared 20 no prob. turns out lucy hype is not for me 😅
proud jay
lucy hype died when they nerfed the hammer that gives you attack speed
mossy zinc
@vague fossil do you do high heat?
vague fossil
my current goal is 32 on fists
I just realized that if I turn down mirror, casting will suffer significantly more than all other means of damage
is that not right?
mossy zinc
Maybe, but casts are also almost entirely independent of your aspect. Some builds suffer possibly a lot more from losing a second dash.
You also don't have to choose RI3 until somewhere in the 50s on most aspects, everything is very limited at that point due to AP2 etc.
vague fossil
Casts are quite dependent of aspects, there are few aspects with cast perks with which you choose casts
Second dash is not a turned off mechanic, you can still dash. However, with only 1 bloodstone casts are utterly useless
mossy zinc
They're not dependent on aspects. You can make a cast build work on anything.
vague fossil
You can make anything work on anything, generally speaking. Heat doesn't allow this to be true and you need to start building something specific
mossy zinc
Let me clarify: you can make a cast build work on any aspect up to like 50ish.
Casts are not useless with 1 ammo. They're still great and a very important tool, but you'll need to use your whole toolset.
vague fossil
Let devs decide, my feedback is only my suggestion
mossy zinc
It's just odd to me that you give feedback on something you've no personal experience with.
vague fossil
I have experience with games and I can have view on game design
Game blocking its own mechanics is odd
mossy zinc
"Is made unavailable on high heat" is just false, anyway, unless you consider high heat only to be 50+ where you are actually forced to pick RI3 or higher.
vague fossil
I can choose RI3 without anything else, Pact allows me to.
mossy zinc
Yes, but what's important is it allows you to not choose that. Meaning, Stygian Soul and Infernal Soul are available on high heat.
vague fossil
I don't see any point in you attacking me personally, it's more productive if you post your feedback to disprove me
And then let devs decide.
mossy zinc
There was zero personal attack, though.
vague fossil
Let me rephrase, there's no point in disproving my feedback not in feedback channel
No personal attacks indeed
mossy zinc
Rule 2 in #hades-feedback says to discuss feedback in #h1-builds-and-combat, which was written well before that channel was renamed and this channel was made, so this channel seemed more appropriate since it's high heat.
vague fossil
My original message can be indeed misleading and wrong. What I tried to say, is that RI3 nerfs casts significantly more than other means of damage. 1 dash does nerf some builds harder than others, but I'm not talking about builds, but something more general
I'm not asking you to discuss feedback but post your own on how you think current state of RI3 is okay
random bough
I really need help with tight deadline in elysium, i ran out of time even before getting to the boss fight and it was TD1
32 heat
I felt the damage was just fine( eris rail) but still couldnt make it
mossy zinc
Make sure you take the mid-shop, npc chamber, and also Chaos Gates can speed things up.
Remove pacts that slow you down like JS etc.
random bough
Chaos gates more often than not can screw you up with AP/RI right?
mossy zinc
There's no need to have any points in either at 32.
random bough
I had JS 2, I guess that was problematic. Dunno how people even do 40+ heat
and I'm guessing I shouldnt take CP on 32 heat either
mossy zinc
Maximize your time spent in Tartarus and Asphodel. Troves that give obols are great, Infernal Gates can be great because they give double rewards, especially Infernal Gates and Chaos Gates right before the boss shop because they're a free extra chamber reward.
Yeah, there's no need to take CP or JS. Those make TD a lot harder.
random bough
So instead of AP/RI I should take like FO2 and more of the first 2?
mossy zinc
Just gonna copy-paste from a reddit comment of mine about high heat.
Default pacts are essentially (numbers are ranks):
Lasting Consequences 4
Convenience Fee 2
Extreme Measures 2–3 (most have it at 3)
Benefits Package 2
Middle Management 1
Underworld Customs 1
Forced Overtime 2
Heightened Security 1
Tight Deadline 1–2 (most have it at 2)
That's 32 Heat with all of them maxed.
That's what practically every 40+ run has.
And the rest is just picking your poison.
random bough
FO2 Hades fight scares me a bit. But I guess I'll have to practice that
mossy zinc
If you use TD1 and EM2, you'll have to put some ranks into something else, of course.
random bough
Well FO2 and the EM3 fight will also hurt a lot
mossy zinc
You can do FO1 and put the points into something else, too.
random bough
You'd take DC2 with fists and rail right?
random bough
The other rails I'd assume its fine
mossy zinc
No idea. You've probably played them more than me lol.
With Malphon, I always have JS3 CP2 DC2 TD2 on high heat, but I only do EM2.
EM3 is an awful awful fight with Malphon that I don't enjoy at all.
Well.
random bough
How does one do JS3 CP2 and TD2...
mossy zinc
EM3 + FO2.
But FO2 is default for me, anyway.
Err.. well, Malphon doesn't have much of a problem beating TD2 with those pacts enabled.
random bough
Alright thanks, ill retry without AP,RI,JS,CP
mossy zinc
It's maybe more of a pride thing than a wise decision to always run those pacts with Malphon though lol. It's just what I feel comfortable with, anyway.
random bough
was going well until i met asterius
LC4 is kinda hard
think I'd rather take AP or RI over EM3
random bough
Thanks again for the advice, just beat 32 with zag fists 
proud jay
EM3 takes a bit to get used to
shell imp
EM3 honestly feels harder than Hades to me.
daring hedge
yeah, i'd definitely say at high heat, elysium and EM3 champs are the far more difficult roadblock on average compared to styx and hades
proud jay
after doing a lot of high heat i think i'm better at the EM3 fight than the normal one
you can pretty much ignore theseus, and asterius is sort of predictable
kill minotaur completely before phasing theseus
random bough
I find asterius' charge really hard to dodge on FO2
That's the attack that hurts the most
rapid ore
I usually just dash through the pillars
mossy zinc
I just block it with Beowulf.
If you're between a pillar and the wall, just dash through him. He'll crash into the pillar or the wall trying to turn around.
Or if you're close to the wall, dash away at the last moment.
wraith imp
lucy hype died when they nerfed the hammer that gives you attack speed
@proud jay
Oh, is that what happened.
I tried to re-do one of haelian's runs and I just couldn't get it to do the same damage numbers without an epic-tier chaos boon.
gentle gate
I'm wondering if launch will come with an Extreme Measures 4 for Hades
red sparrow
just here to say i'm real salty about heat 32 but i'll keep going
edgy arrow
I'm wondering if launch will come with an Extreme Measures 4 for Hades
they’ve said there’ll be a new alternate boss version, and i think it’s generally accepted that it will be EM4
ashen rain
hey question, ive played with jury summons plenty but i cant tell, does it create more waves overall, and does lambent plume get more time on its timer or no? i always turned JS off when i do Plume because i thought it would make more waves
gentle gate
JS seems like it summons a few enemies mid fight
Like if you turn it on 1 and you're fighting 3 rats, a 4th one summons partway through dealing with the others.
I don't think it becomes more waves, but I haven't tried it on max or with lots of +foes from Chaos.
paper fable
yo why is 32 the sweet spot we trying to beat it at
daring hedge
32 is only significant because it's the heat threshold for the third and final skelly reward in the courtyard
rapid ore
Achievement spoiler ||There doesn't seem to be an achievement for the 32 heat one though||
crystal iron
probably because ||it's a much bigger difficulty curve ||
rapid ore
||makes sense, especially since you've done the first two getting the third feels more rewarding. But if you don't want to do it you can still get 100%||
tardy path
||Also no bounties appear after 20 so I think they don't want to push players over that limit unless they really want to||
wraith imp
i'm kinda expecting SGG to give bounties for heat > 20 in launch 1.0.
But i'm not sure what the rewards will be...
titan blood doesn't serve a purpose after unlocking all the weapon aspects and upgrading them to max.
mossy zinc
There'll be endgame content that requires hundreds of hours in the game. They've said so in the most recent noclip video.
rapid ore
I don't have hundreds of hours 😩
mossy zinc
Well, that just means there's plenty of content to look forward to, right?
honest charm
yes
random bough
how does strong drink interact with LC4?
tidal flame
I hope it's not another Useless Trinkets type of reward.
What if we have a hidden hidden aspect if you do something super wild?
hmm
shadow zodiac
oooh or maybe you can use gigaroas (no idea the spelling), the current spear that hades uses
tidal flame
can I 360 laser beam the rooms? would be nice
sharp cobalt
Gigaros.
shadow zodiac
thanks
foggy ruin
all I want is to do dad's phase two spin attack. that's what I initially thought hades aspect's punishing sweep was
somber mason
Little Zagreus is yet too small and impetuous to comprehend the idea of "spin attack and MOVE"
trim sigil
Technically you CAN spin and move, but you'll break brain trying to do so
(by carrying a spin with dash)
uncut wigeon
You do get an achievement for 32 heat already: the skelly statue.
mossy zinc
Doing 32 Heat is the achievement that you get for doing 32 Heat.
You made it.
That's an achievement.
Intrinsic motivation, yay.
quartz isle
I feel that, Ive been avoiding heat runs due to thinking i suck, just been going one at a time with whatever weapon is thirsty to try to get bounties. Decided to try my first 8 heat run and won with 2 DDs left and feel super good about it. Cant wait to try 16
halcyon frost
Hey High Heat Crew!
I have recently baught into the Chaos shield hype and started taking it over the Zag shield wich was my favorite before. The thing is: it does what it does very well it's just slower than I am used to. I usually pick TD2 together with EM3 and MM as well as some FO and others sprinkled in to get to 20 heat. Worked on every other weapon so far, but while Chaos shield get's me there significantly safer than other weapons did, it is also slower and for some reason I keep getting bad luck with the surface and find the sack 2nd to last or last door. With 30 Seconds or so to finish dad wich I always fail. I usually am low HP high timer, with Chaos it is the other way around. Can anyone give me like a quick build for the Chaos shield?
mossy zinc
Thunder Flourish and whichever boon gives Jolted.
sharp cobalt
Thunder Flourish is the go to for sure. Make sure not to take the hammer boon that adds more bounces.
mossy zinc
Frost Strike and get their Duo Boon (requires Jolted).
Merciful End builds are also very strong.
Thunder Flourish + Curse of Agony + Divine Dash + Merciful End is an option you can go for if you see the right gods on a run.
sharp cobalt
And Ares special is also a decent second option in general, so you won't feel weak up to Merciful End, even if you don't end up getting it.
mossy zinc
Drunken Flourish can be good, too.
Thunder Flourish, Curse of Pain, or Drunken Flourish are basically the meta picks.
tidal flame
Do you know what's a big help? This community.
halcyon frost
k Thanks I was going for Deadly flourish and crits maybe thats why I had low dps.
honest charm
Do you know what's a big help? This community.
I remember when I was a teeny baby man who didn't know how to use the aspect of Arthur
so I came crying here for help
mossy zinc
Yeah, I learned a lot from all the other players in this server.
patent umbra
Same. Y'all taught my so much
also, those spreadsheets
I don't even play past 32 heat. This channel just had too much knowledge to let sit
tidal flame
haven't played in a while. almost failed my 32 heat attempt with Hunter Dash + Deadly Strike whew.
honest charm
almost
nice
edgy arrow
Okay so group of Saviour numbskulls vs. Arthur. Sat there in effectually whacking at their regenerating shields for like 5 minutes before I lost all three DDs and died.
Is... is that a hard counter?
i'd be more mad if it wasn't so hilarious
sharp cobalt
What about your cast and special?
edgy arrow
my cast wasn't upgraded
i had double nova on my special, which i thought might help, but it didn't lol
it'd take off two shields, but they've regenerate those before i could take advantage of it
sharp cobalt
I believe the Arthur auro slows down the skulls a lot, doesn't it?
So use it to trap some, then knock some away with the dash attack.
edgy arrow
hmm
that's not a bad idea
yeah it really was that they were all in the same area
the room was pretty small, so it might have been hard to get to work, but i'll keep it in mind if that comes up again
sharp cobalt
Either way, lots of tiny savior enemies -are- annoying.
Though homing splitter swarms with savior or extra speed/attack are what I hate the most.
edgy arrow
yeah those can be painful
slow cairn
Any tips for dealing with Theseus and Asterius with short range weapons? Every time I get to these two with Stygian Blade or Malphon, it goes very poorly for me because there's so much aoe and my opportunities to deal damage safely are extremely limited until one of them is down. I usually focus on Asterius first. If I can get this fight down properly, I think my success rate when doing higher heat runs will go up dramatically. I feel like I'm nearly guaranteed to lose at least one DD here.
drowsy inlet
Stay behind asterius. Try to learn when they attack. Stay close to walls and pillars for spear and charge attack.
Watching other streamers/videos may help you out.
Thats the safe route atleast
If you wanna do it fast I recommend fighting theseus first because asterius will come to you, allowing you to fight both at once, dealing much more dmg.
stark cape
if you want to do it safely, tho, i recommend fighting asterius first and getting far away from theseus
ashen rain
Aye,. also when Theseus starts his Olympus Call, he stands still for a long time and wont block
playing around asterius and theseus’s invulnerable phases and using my big damage (from companion or my own Olympus Call) at the right moment seems like real important stuff to me
stark cape
yeah, don't hit them with the big stuff when they're just above 50%
runs have been lost that way 😭
honest charm
with 1.0, the max heat has increased
right?
random bough
I saw someone say EM4
shell sluice
if so , then yes
random bough
Also tight deadline according to Hermes cup vid has probably changed
9,7,5 mins tartarus asphodel and Elysium with time carrying over, amir said but I shud be reading patch notes
random bough
No patch notes yet?
high crescent
ugh wish I had time for a run but work :/
patent umbra
Everyone, have fun today.
balmy zinc
Hey gang, we're waiting for news from the devs for the official switch drop time! This was not a mistake, please be patient was we wait for more information :)
if you'd like to be hype, head over to #h1-discussion or #h1-story-discussion to chat!
foggy ruin
thanks @balmy zinc ! send our regards to the team
foggy ruin
is it.. ahem... hell?
hardy bobcat
idk, I read it on the patch notes
foggy ruin
ME though haha
uncut wigeon
Theh got rid of snap nova
Now I can no longer kill myself hopping around like an idiot
The gods giveth, the gods taketh away
edgy arrow
so is TD the only altered heat option?
bright crescent
foggy ruin
I think there are special conditions to enable EM4
edgy arrow
yeah that would make sense
tidal flame
yes and no
honest kernel
🤔
tidal flame
we have 57 heat done with routing
honest kernel
oh with routing
tidal flame
by ForgottenKane
honest kernel
but on EA?
tidal flame
yeah
tidal flame
1.0 is out today so I would be very surprised if someone already beat that
honest kernel
yeeah I just gave it a quick look
I haven't been here for a while so I wodnered if something happend
tidal flame
yeah. highest non route is 53 methink. 57 with route. ver 1.0 to be seen
honest kernel
good luck then 💪
bronze viper
Has anyone beaten new highest heat yet?
Ermagerd, the bow changes.
:( My internet is down, can't update, or download on switch lol
tidal flame
Praise be Amir. Bow was buffed, Beowulf stays the same.
honest kernel
👍 pretty nice
proud jay
AP2
uncut wigeon
I'm playing this game without Forced Overtime
feels like I'm Neo, everybody moving so slow.
bronze viper
Lmao
uncut wigeon
bullet hell witches throwing only 3 balls at me like
why are you bothering, my dudes?
bronze viper
Hype for new hell mode save on switch. CP1 JS1 no longer a death sentence at high heat with new TD mechanics
tidal flame
AP2
@proud jay lol
mossy zinc
Did a casual 32 with Demeter Aspect and JS3 CP2 TD3. Pace seemed to be fine for higher heat. Need to look into it with DC2, though.
Noticeably less Deflect damage on bosses, but it didn't seem like a big deal.
tidal flame
Did you see new fists?
uncut wigeon
I haven't. doing a run to see if I could catch asterius in Elysium but no luck. 😦
mossy zinc
No. I only did one run.
foggy ruin
Asterius gave me the magic phrase. Will come back after I finish this run
Welp, ladies and gentlemen, meet the Aspect of ||Gilgamesh https://imgur.com/a/AzgZ9EJ||
dense shell
Has anyone done any good runs with Aspect of Gilgamesh? On my first one now, and they seem very hard to use without getting hit. The dash-special immobilizes me for just that split second that gets me hit over and over again.
foggy ruin
I'm taking it for some spins now, not jiving with it at all so far. Still tinkering though
hollow lynx
tip: you can hold dash and attack for a chain of dash attacks
also, i use explosive upper for maiming
but really, you don't need the maiming, it does plenty of damage on its own
foggy ruin
Yeah I'm treating maim like doom. Inflict once in a while then leave be
sly gulch
wraith imp
Uh oh
I'm not liking the new chaos shield
The star pattern of the special was more effective than the v-shaped wave
they added heat to three and also a new level
@bright crescent
Oh word?
One of my recommendations was actually accepted? (I'm sure others asked but I must've missed it.)
/I'm kinda salty that "AAAAMMMMIIIIIIIIRRRRRRRRRRR" didn't change the lucifer special to rocket bomb.
chaos shield is most definitely not the quasi-omnidirectional WMD it once was. dammit.
"Change it back Amir! AMIR! AAAAAMMMMMIIIIIIIRRRRRRRRR"
minor rover
new chaos shield is weird
wraith imp
Yeah, so I'm definitely not liking the new chaos shield because it negates one of the most common things I used to do.
I used to bullrush through an enemy and then fire the special. Because of star pattern, one of the 5 would hit the enemy I bullrushed past (usually behind me).
Now...
When I bullrush through an enemy (say a boss), there's no star pattern. It's a wave V. So I have to turn around after bullrush to do damage.
That's...not good.
In other words, to make the bullrush + quick special work, I have to bullrush and stop just in front of the enemy for the v-shaped launch to make contact.
But that leaves me open to all kinds of attacks in the front.
I'm going to put this in feedback.
I think I understand what SGG was trying to do - make aiming important again.
With old chaos shield, aiming with special wasn't important (unless bullrush was important to player's style). As someone put it last week, it's basically a multi-directional missle launcher. (I affectionately call it a WMD especially with zeus on shield.)
The new chaos shield with v-shaped launch in a concentrated 75 degree angle which makes aiming important after bullrush.
I don't like it.
proud jay
it's better at shotgunning, worse at bouncing all over the screen. just different than before
so i can tell you that 47 heat with the all new ||extreme measures 4|| is hard
proud jay
i strongly believe that 40 heat is much easier now to clear consistently
if you go for the right options
tidal flame
I think 32 heat streak is a lot easier now with TD change
tidal flame
Basically just put on TD2 and spend your sweet time clearing rooms.
proud jay
well ok makes a small difference -- kinda forgot how awful TD2 elysium can be
it's the tweaked DF mirror option that makes a huge difference
i entered hades with ~400hp and 2 duo boons at 47 heat
proud jay
dark foresight went from 10% to 20%
increases the amount of gold laurel chambers
normally you'd be struggling to sell boons for underworld customs
tidal flame
I see. Ty!
wraith imp
Just the new heat is hard. I have sub 50% success rate at 10 heat.
@tidal flame
Wut? Really? I forgot to scan the new heat menu. What is it?
wraith imp
it's better at shotgunning, worse at bouncing all over the screen. just different than before
@proud jay
yeah, i've come to the same conclusion.
wraith imp
Wait...
I'm not getting EM4.
And lol at there being a TD3.
AAAMMMMIIIIRRRRRRRRR, what are you doing man?
💀
wraith imp
Yeah, I most definitely don't know what you all are talking about. My pact of punishment has TD3 but no EM4.
Oh,hmmm...EM4 needs to be unlocked. interesting.
shell sluice
Dad want us to pay him money to fight him at his best
wraith imp
I'm seeing more (slight?) nerfs:
- merciful end no longer does 50 damage. It does 40.
- hermes' greater evasion gives 20% dodge chance on epic. iirc, that used to be the rare version while epic used to give 25%.
royal wagon
Biggest ME nerf is that you actually need an Athena attack of some sort to get it
honest kernel
I think new chaos makes it more predictable for me I like it more
tardy path
I haven't tried it yet but I heard some people are super disappointed with it
wraith imp
Biggest ME nerf is that you actually need an Athena attack of some sort to get it
@royal wagon
I'm not following.
I just tried it out on zeus shield with ares attack and athena special and i got it (albeit game's rng didn't give it to me until 4th chamber of styx).
I think because of the major nerf to chaos shield, zeus shield (with athena on special) is now a superior choice to chaos shield especially for high heat.
ETA. Oh...wait...did you mean that merciful end can no longer be gotten with ares attack + athena dash? if true, then yeah...dammit.
royal wagon
Ya the edit you made is what I was referring to. It means that ME basically only works on weapons that allow an easy special + attack spam
Because otherwise you have to luck into Athena dash after getting ME
Athena dash still procs ME though if you do get it, far as I am aware
bronze viper
I think new chaos makes it more predictable for me I like it more
@honest kernel Lol, obviously we can't argue about you preferring the new shield, but as far as predictability, nothing really beats "every shield will hit some enemy somewhere on the screen"
Though, I think it's a fairly weak argument against the new shield to say "I have to actually participate in game mechanics now. Meh"
honest kernel
I mean yeah the other shield was pretty much better for crowd control
but I always hated how its random when it returns if you know what I mean
and new shield makes it really consistent
proud jay
it still kinda happens
uncut wigeon
Old chaos had a better "fun" element to it with shields flying everywhere
vague fossil
Has anybody beat Redacted first run?
patent umbra
I didn't. On Hell Mode. Got to him on my 4th on the new file. Honestly should've won there, but I didn't. Beat him on my 7th run. Then beat him 5 more times in a row.
fallen nexus
Is Redacted ||Charon||?
ruby cipher
No
fallen nexus
Oh, because I just found him, and it was super-unexpected.
That boat-pole has HUGE range.
bronze viper
I took a month break and created a Hell Mode save on Switch. Got Dad on my 3rd attempt I think :(. I know I'm not imagining it--it might be my pro controller--but the controls feel.... off. It is very easy for me to just randomly cancel one of my attacks into an unintended dash in some direction. It may be just rust, idk.
I'm ignoring the horrific frame drops in Elysium especially, I assume they'll address that in future patches.
honest charm
Has anybody beat Redacted first run?
@vague fossil I don't know if you mean hellmode specifically, but I've won on the first run in normal mode a few times
wraith imp
Old chaos had a better "fun" element to it with shields flying everywhere
@uncut wigeon
Yep. And the chaotic nature of the previous version of chaos shield actually fit its name - chaos shield.
Like, I'm not going to deny that previous version of chaos shield was noob-friendly or broken/overpowered. (it was a multidrectional WMD that was especially great for crowd control which made it ideal for high heat.) But it was also super fun to play especially with zeus or ares or dionysus -- that's undeniable.
The new chaos shield is markedly worse in the fun factor for me. Does the new one require players to be more deliberate/methodical? Sure. But as someone who enjoys and thrives in melee, I loved previous chaos shield. I have seldom encountered a weapon that was as enjoyable to use as that one.
And now...it's gone.
I would trade in the 1.0 version of hades for bloodprince update version if it meant I could get back the old chaos shield.
Yes, I'm psuedo-eulogizing and yes, I'm salty about the new chaos shield.
uncut wigeon
Honestly, saying something is broken holds very little sway with me. Which is why I dont quite understand why it was nerfed.
It can be super good in one situation. Great. Out of all the Hades channels, this one seems to have the smallest regular users. It also has the people most likely tk abuse stuff.
So Chaos Shield was a complain to ultimately appease some people because others were having fun with someting.
It isnt Chaos Shield's problem tbat zag sword, talos or other aspects arwnt fun.
bronze viper
I think it was more meant to not give such a shortcut to 32 heat. They don't really balance with very high heat in mind.
uncut wigeon
You also have to spend a decent amount of titan blood to get chaos its full value
Yeah but, how many other silly high damage builds are out there
Nemesis sword murders things free
Same with Hades aspect
L-aspect rail has all sorts of funky builds.
bronze viper
Chaos isn't silly high damage. It's mostly that your invincible defensive option is part of the core damage loop, which also hit everything on the screen.
vague fossil
@vague fossil I don't know if you mean hellmode specifically, but I've won on the first run in normal mode a few times
@honest charm I meant normal mode. Nice to know it's possible
honest charm
it's more than possible
you practically get forced to get deadly reversal and/or merciful end
and getting athena's legendary is a cakewalk
wraith imp
Every time I've completed a run with new chaos shield, I come away feeling pissed and unsatisfied (because I can't shake the feeling of the old chaos shield) -- "phantom pain" (lol, sup MGS peeps!).
chaos shield now ranks 3rd out of all 4 shields in my personal rankings.
Granted, that doesn't say much considering all the shields range from very good-to-great but I now definitely prefer naegling's board with (charged flight + dread flight hammer upgrades) and zeus shield (with explosive return hammer upgrade for yo-yo special) above chaos shield.
honest charm
why are we still here
peak junco
just to suffer
wraith imp
"just to suffer?!?!"
That said, kaz's "they played us like a damn fiddle" is now playing in my head because SGG waited until 1.0 launch to nerf it.
I've shrugged off previous weapon/build nerfs. (zag's instantaneous special with athena comes to mind.)
But I can't let this one go.
vague fossil
@honest charm What if there's a secret dialogue with FB on max heat
bronze viper
What is the number for max heat now? Don't have EM or RI yet (and don't know how to unlock them lol)
bronze viper
Nice. Best of luck to the routers out there to crack the 20 minute run puzzle.
wraith imp
lol
If I ever attempt it, I can tell you what weapon aspect I will no longer be using.
Shakes fist at SGG but specifically AAAAMMMMMMMMMIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIRRRRRRRRRRRRRR
bronze viper
Yeah, for max heat specifically it matters a LOT that everything on the screen isn't getting hit
wraith imp
<friendship with chaos shield has ended>
<friendship with naegling's board + charged flight + dread flight + aphrodite special + poseidon dash + aphro/poseidon duo has begun>
if SGG nerfs that too, I'm just going to uninstall/delete the game from my pc.
worn scaffold
so how is EM4>
worn scaffold
damn son EM4 is crazy
probably a bit easier without OT but only thing that saved me was charm
and having gone all the way on the Zeus tree
rough ermine
I'm trying to do some TD3 EM4 (totalling only to like, 16 heat) and good lord I don't see myself being able to do it anytime soon
tbh just TD3 EM3 is already super difficult
worn scaffold
I never got into the TD train :V I just do TD1 as a free point mostly
but now it's easier? They made it additive
rough ermine
I mostly use just pre 1.0 TD1
so now with 1.0
I moved it a step up to TD2
28 minutes is quite a bit of leeway
worn scaffold
I think tartarus is the hardest
because afterwards there's time
eh I'll have to try td2 and 3 see how it goes
rough ermine
tartarus isn't the hardest, but clearing tartarus and aspohodel in a fast enough time that makes you not die to shieldbro/5 sack
is hard
worn scaffold
yeah
rough ermine
the part that usually kills people in pre 1.0 TD2 are just that
elysium and 4/5 sack
worn scaffold
speedrunning, people. never again
yes, that's what used to kill me as well
shield guys
ugh
rough ermine
elysium on average has been taking me about 7 minutes flat
on a random seed I mean
I say on average
sometimes I clear it in 5 minutes
sometimes I'm still at the miniboss at 7 minutes
worn scaffold
I'll try and see if I can clear EM4 with LC4
rough ermine
and the bell's gone off
rough ermine
isn't LC4 meta stubborn defiance + touch of styx
worn scaffold
don't know if it's meta but that's what I use as well
rough ermine
and like acorn
worn scaffold
but EM4 melted through my DDs in the last stage
maybe it's because I'm unfamiliar though
rough ermine
yeah EM4 is something else lol
worn scaffold
but on the other hand my build was stronk
so I had a ton of damage, fight went very fast
I don't like the Gilgamesh aspect
it's very hard to aim I think
and maybe it works better on controller but on keyboard it's a pain
rough ermine
what's the telegraph for EM4 spear throw?
ruby cipher
Instert gif of Elijah Wood from spy kids 3d saying "oops" and dying
fallow stream
Greetings all, been a while
tardy path
Heya! Been a while
fallow stream
Well, just saw v1.0 is out, just downloaded the update
tidal flame
30%*100 = 33.(3)
fallow stream
I'm never gonna live that down
Getting my butt kicked at heat 30. I'm rusty
Any new boon combos I'm unaware of?
tidal flame
not really, assuming you have been paying since Blood Price
fallow stream
Yep
tidal flame
yeah, we got nothing new in that aspect
rough ermine
ok I think the extent I can do EM4 is like
at the very most TD2
and even then I'm almost short on time
granted it was a 4-sack but still
EM4 final boss just takes so long to kill
honest charm
is there a telegraph for the spear throw?
worn scaffold
I really want to see someone do EM4 OT2 LC4
wraith imp
charged flight got nerfed. it no longer does 400% damage. it does 200% damage.
<deep breaths>
i'm very annoyed.
@uncut wigeon
I hadn't seen your post. I was just doing a beowulf run and i'm salty.
however, i have ares battle rage (rare)+lvl up so i'm getting 180% after i kill an enemy. it's decent but nothing beats what charged flight used to be.
i think i need to take a break from this game. i don't like what sgg did to shield.
uncut wigeon
Charged Beowulf needed a tweak
But it was fun having one weapon that could do dunkalicious damage under one condition.
worn scaffold
I really don't like the new chaos spread
it has to be charge -> dash back -> throw now
fallow stream
I really like the new fist aspect
Makes Poseidon actually useful with malphon
The only thing I don't like is you can't dash strike cancel into dash upper like normal... It's a habit I have to shake
wraith imp
I really don't like the new chaos spread
@worn scaffold
Yep. I've been whining about it for the past 24 hours. I left feedback on the feedback channel that I want previous version of chaos shield back.
worn scaffold
I'll still play it from time to time, just to hear Master Chaos' encouragements :V
wraith imp
I did find chaos's occasional commentary endearing. I love how chaos says "annihilation" after quickly wiping out a wave.
But it was fun having one weapon that could do dunkalicious damage under one condition.
@uncut wigeon
And SGG wouldn't let us have that either...dammit.
I'm glad I got to do beowulf charged flight + dread flight special run where 1200+ damage against 6 enemies before that got nerfed. I'll be able to tell my grandkids about it someday.
uncut wigeon
I don't really get it. The issue with Beowulf wasn't how silly Charged Flight was. It was that its regular ability wasn't fun.