2025 H2 Gilgamesh Discussion

[stoic yacht]

What if Ursa had built in def penetration when wielding a 2h? Combine it with hitting 2 targets and a slight 2h damage boost or increase stats it should do better at higher anguish

[rare oar]

What do you mean by built in penetration? A boost to M1 in any attack?

[stoic yacht]

Same way some gear already has it, it would help punch through higher stats and wouldn't work with a 1h/shield so that people didn't try to make SS work with it

[gaunt nova]

A bit of testing on Beta, Melancholy 31 Anguish, 245 AL Unshackled. Theres a few limitations to my build, notably my usual gear is Anguished to at least this level, but not most of my ursa gear, but I don't think it would change the situtation much.

Dropping a turn whether through not killing or not getting parting remark once your to the t9 mobs is super risky and a death sentence when youre fighting t10 mobs. Most other classes would either have a SS build to survive, or be able to guarantee a one hit clear through BL2. Not really an option for Ursa, lacks damage/pen to guarantee clears but doesnt have the survivability if it doesnt.

[slow dome]

Is the survivability concern contained within PvP, or are you guys dying in all content types in a way that is wildly out of line with other non-gilga classes?

[rare oar]

Compared to base, I’m dying much more in melancholy 25 with Ursa. Similarly to what Geppu said, not running ward based builds means being very susceptible to being one shot by anything T9+

[slow dome]

Right, is it out of line with say, Realmshifter? May be hard for folks to verify, that's ok if so

[rare oar]

It’s comparable to base RS, but significantly worse than Dorado (I have a lot of RS experience so that’s easy to answer 😅).

Thing is, base RS has other content where it excels at (raiding, PvP attack, etc)

[crimson bay]

Can I ask this. Is ward needed if we can find a different way to have the same eHP. Like we turn all ward into hp

I see ursa as the big hp pool using a 2h identity wise

[rare oar]

eHP is the important factor for survivability. How you attain it is almost indifferent (it being all HP would technically protect you from ward damage boosters like Saboteur and amities)

[slow dome]

Love this question, and yes exactly.
It's easy to fall into the trap of making ward the solution, when the problem is survivability.

No one should feel silly for that, it's the option that has been offered historically, so makes sense. I'm interested in exploring different options, as it differentiates rather than making things all feel the same.

[proper wolf]

I do find it very odd that some stat passives get to carry in between floors and others dont.

I have already made a discussion about this. But maybe it’s the time to peak at this interaction and parse out something “equal” across the board

[slow dome]

Ok so progression point from here to now:

• Survivability is the flagged concern, true of all content types (Main offenders being PvP and higher anguish content)
• Increased lean into two handers is a discussion point Dangy is trying to explore, folks not overly excited by it as they are mainly concerned about survivability

Let me know if these little summaries are helpful for following conversation

[stark venture]

More base def/res? bigger def/res bonus scaling with AL?

[rare oar]

So, survivability options:

• Hp
• Ward
• Pet protect
• Parapet

Pet protect doesn’t really fit into ursa’s concept, and parapet is too strong to be a passive imo. That leaves ward and HP as conventional mechanisms.

If we’re looking to stray away from ward, we should either be looking at HP or a new alternative. Does that make sense?

[slow dome]

*Existing survivability options

I'm personally happy to entertain other options. Just going to throw one out there as a creative juice motivator:

What if damage to HP was less than damage to ward?
To be clear, ideas like this are just me teasing things out, not statements that they are coming haha

It's ok to suggest things that don't exist

[round yew]

I wont get involved this is great discussion but just wanted to throw this out there as a suggestion ive had for a while -

Super raid 2hs should all be usable. Currently theres only a set few 2hs that are viable for builds, and im sure thats one issue leading to the lack of appeal of 2h boost on gursa.

Good discussion all!

[slow dome]

Better gear that bolsters identity is always a good shout, agree

[stoic yacht]

What if Ursa gained def/res/Atk when ward is gone? Almost like a purple line 🟣

[rare oar]

That’s an interesting idea. Increases eHP without excessively boosting ward since the actual HP number doesn’t get increased

[stark venture]

Similar to mystic feather- increase def/res as damage is taken ?

[neon bramble]

🤔 what if a 2handed strike would recover a small % of both hp and ward? Like sort of recharge.

[stoic yacht]

Basically, there is plenty of gear that never gets used solely due to the fact that it doesn't have ward on it but if we incentive having little to no ward as a survival mechanism then old gear would be relevant again

[neon bramble]

Totally agree, there this big fat catlike raid monsters with a 2 handed axe catching dust lol.

[gaunt nova]

👀 👀 👀

[slow dome]

Correct me if I'm misunderstanding the problem:
I think the bonuses that increase def/res, or resupply HP wouldn't solve the issue of dying immediately

At higher anguish and in PvP, folks are worried about the 1 shot more than surviving multiple hits, yes?

[rare oar]

Correct

[round yew]

They did get a buff/rework after the original suggestion but it was only a few 2hs and it still wasnt quite enough for Gursa specifically imo

[pine mirage]

I have followed this very loosely. Is the idea of adding a free turn to frenzy activation nixed? That sounds like a good ability to add to Ursa passive that adds survivability via turn economy

[slow dome]

I'd love a world where folks were excited about gear that didn't have ward on it 😂😅

[crimson bay]

Sorry for tagging you @slow dome, are you guys looking to add a new mechanic or maybe a different passive that makes ursa unique.

Or are either viable outcomes.

I personally love 2h weps and it's the main reason I like ursa.

You could have 2h weps on ursa have a chance to bypass a certain % of enemy defense on attacks

[slow dome]

#1437493852457140265 message

[stark venture]

Ye I agree with that. Black dragon armor being a glaring one, it’s perfect for gilga but no ward lol

[rare oar]

Honestly, the more I think about Dangy’s suggestion the more I like it.

We could also give ursa a big HP multiplier and a negative ward multiplier to attain a similar result

[slow dome]

I wouldn't say we're looking at it, no. I'm going a bit rogue here admittedly, but these exercises can be really productive and historically have led to implementations.

The conversation over the last few days was circular, and long. There was little to takeaway from it. So my main goal here is to get us on the same page as each other, and work towards making suggestions that we all agree with, that would improve the QoL

[stoic yacht]

How would it look if my purple line idea and dangy's idea both were a thing?

[round yew]

Question -
At higher AL, doesnt gursa have the highest eHP in the game when wielding a 2h in the right ward/hp gear?

That is to say, once ward abilities are activated it immediately drops off. So one shot survivability is the best in class turn one but drops off a cliff after

[rare oar]

Maybe a bit too strong, but would depend on the numbers. TBH I’m kinda bored already of all the line passives, so I wouldn’t want to see yet another new version of it 😅

[crimson bay]

I actually love this even more then my idea of turning ward into hp. That way we don't have to chase gear with ward on it. We can use black dragon armor with all the CD stats

[stoic yacht]

I feel like Ursa would be the best class for a setup without ward due to the large HP pool so even though it's a line passive it'd be easy to setup and push for gear with low ward

[rare oar]

Geppu at 245 AL was unable to make ward match hp in beta while keeping enough damage to be effective

[round yew]

Thoughts on Thornius idea of Life Siphon-esque passive except with a little ward regen on there too? Feels strong and on theme with the high HP class and would help sustain

[shut citrus]

And thoughts on Thornius’ suggestion for free chain with 2H on swing? (I dunno about balance but it sounds wicked fun!)

[slow dome]

Ursa currently has 10% ward recovery, but again I'm unsure that solves the problem of actually dying. Folks are raising that they die, not that they don't have a recovery option currently (I think?)

#1437493852457140265 message

Thanks for helping out guys, super appreciate it. Woo!

[stoic yacht]

I don't think having a recharge would help with survivability more then what's already being done. The issue is Ursa has lower eHP due to the reduction of ward even with the inflated HP pool.

[gaunt nova]

I personally like the idea of Ursa's eHP being shoved more towards health, but if we wanted to keep ward as a strictly defensive measure, something like starting ward absorption would help more than regen.

[stoic yacht]

What stats did you have with your Ursa?

[crimson bay]

Wouldn't giving ursa a hp modifier be an easy fix for eHP. Like maybe 40% more isn't enough but 50 % is too much.

I don't want to speak for everyone but it seems like ursa having a ton of hp seems to be popular

[slow dome]

Adjusting that dial too much is playing with fire. There are so many multipliers, and if we introduce more HP gear in future things would get wild

[stoic yacht]

Also Frenzy would play quite well with a purple line type passive as it would basically hamper ward Regen keeping the boosted def/res going and incentive wanting to run Frenzy more

[round yew]

Can someone show some build data on ehp comparison between gursa and beoH (i think is the 2nd best? Maybe dursa).

[stark venture]

Newbie curiosity, why is the discussion focused primarily on hp/ward for survivability and not def/res?

[shut citrus]

Generally speaking, certain skills and spells can do enough damage to punch through def/res so the goal of ward builds is to make sure you have enough HP + Ward to take the first hit and then swing back

A common example has been SS-based Skills, but with the addition of Flask Power, Bloodray now doesn’t care about defense/resistance virtually at all

[stark venture]

Ye I mostly understand that part, but then why not increase or increase the effectiveness of def/res for gilga? Enough to give it a defensive edge and give it a bit more identity as a class, rn it seems that every class build is “just get more ward”

[crimson bay]

I had thought of that as well. But then my stupid monkey brain says. Well stacking defensive stats seems like more of a herc idea

Also to go along with what dangy said. I want a world where we can get good gear without ward and be excited for it. Maybe we can change that atleast for ursa

[slow dome]

Def and Res are effective, it's just more about scaling. Folks are very high ascension levels, and/or anguish levels when they speak to the diminished returns of def/res typically

[blazing tendon]

Not caught up in all the chat, but going to try to make commentary as I read along, then edit this as I go:

• I think it would be more accurate to this one to say Gilga is split. Because while survivability is definitely a worry, if 2H had more utility/power/oomph, that would solve some of the issues at hand i.e.
• that 100% chain chance mentioned
• The increase specifically to the weapon as opposed to 2H power
• Other examples as presented. In all ideas that allow for doing more output DUE to the less surviability.

[stark venture]

Then improve scaling for Gursa at high Al/ang? rather than change it’s identity (high hp low ward)

[rare oar]

How would buffing HP change Ursa’s identity? If anything it would emphasize it

[stark venture]

Nah I agree with that, but even more base hp? It already has the highest base hp and folks are still having survivability issues

[lethal summit]

I've suggested similar hp based ideas in the past on what has been discussed here. I would suggest that all the passives for ward on guess be instead switched to HP, and instead give gursa access to a larger health pool and no ward at all. It plays into the berserker class design that I think was the idea behind it. It could be as simple as in addition to (or instead of) +10k HP, make it 2x all bonus HP. Or perhaps more simple: convert all ward to HP at ~25% rate (placeholder). Then we could look at a passive similar to mystic feather where at lower % of HP in battle, you then get x% chance to shrugg off an attack entirely. Maybe there's also a redline-esque component for stats or damage too. Higher risk, hopefully high reward similar to realm

[rare oar]

Your effective Hp (how much damage you can tank turn 1) is what really matters. Folks have low survivability because they can’t pair that high HP with enough ward to attain sufficient eHP. Buffing HP or making Hp take reduced damage helps increase eHP and therefore survivability

[pine mirage]

Turn 1 eHP only matters for pvp no? I thought the discussion was moving away from the pvp focus

(I guess technically towers too?)

[fierce marsh]

27-30k HP(for my al22 gursa, depending on gear) isn't enough most of the time, for towers(torment 7) or hordes (mel 13). And I don't touch ward at all with the class. Not a bad idea to give it more hp

[round yew]

Can you show some data on that?
I.e. build comparison showing why gursa is not high ehp turn 1

[rare oar]

eHP is still relevant in PvE, the survivability concerns in high anguish content still relate to that. Not being able to use ward based skills means building less into ward values, lowering your EHP even more, even if you run a DB pet

@round yew I can try getting some screenshots once I get home from work in a few hours. Keep in mind this is all looking at a perspective of having Ursa use 2h weapons, which further lower attainable ward values

[slow dome]

Yeah data points in this thread would be amazing

[blazing tendon]

Whoops, didn't mean to hit enter. Damnit.

Continueing on:

• Def and Res can be a bit effective but as dangy was pointing out the scaling, especially with all the new abilities for offence in the past year or two, it definitely doesn't feel great. Getting 350k SS3 from a BeoH in area defense (without him having crownguards boosting) when I am running 14k Def and 12k res feels pretty bad.

• In PvP I have been told that Def/Res are actually decreasing each turn? This makes for the PvP side of things even less incentive to build towards that and glass canon like we see everywhere

• Having a world where there is some way to be excited about gear without ward I jwould also love. I have honestly been somewhat laughed at, and punished in game because I was always seeking out gear that had higher def/res ||To the point when I first saw pumpkinless I was all like "Low def?!? negative foresite?!? This isn't good at all!! Yeeeahhh... I've stopped doing knee-jerk reactions to new gear now || So something on those lines could be great.

Previously discussed things that I think are still lingering,, but forgotten in the walls of text

• Lack of scaling passive really hurts Gursa, and I believe thats a universal opinion
• Making 2H more viable to lean towards that would be great. Main thoughts suggested are:
• In general rework 2H to be better (Doubtful that is a project NFS wantrs to tackle right now
• Make Ursa's 2H bonus work on gear and it's stats, as per Yoshi/me/whomever discussed it (Hello endless boost with Yel sword and extra orn boost now?)
• There still is a big big thirst for Frenzy to be looked at and implemented as something thats not just raid-only.
• Between Frenzy variants, how it can activate, allowing it between floors etc. In my personal humble opinion a lot of the "attack" issues that face Gigla (all gilga not just Gursa) can be solved with a bit of love to frenzy (Please note the current love is much appreciated!) that allows it for a more universal skill as opposed to just raids.
• Also can potentially solve the previous discussed issue of identety of base gilga with whatever frenzy variant it inhereits

Big shoutout to the effort Dangy, I super appreciate helping get some good conversation and away from the circular talk. I also acknowledge that you are throwing out suggestions at a risk of someone misquoting you, so thanks for taking that on, and I'll defend you to your last! (I mean, you did give multiple disclaimers you were just brainstorming to get us moving)

[crimson bay]

I know we all love the idea of a hp modifier. But dangy is saying that could turn into a balance nightmare if they mess with that dial.

That goes back to my idea of turning ward into hp, but that also doesn't solve the issue of having good gear that doesn't have ward (black dragon) unused

[austere cliff]

I gave my opinion earlyer but its like talking with a wall.. gilga ursa use skills that defend for One turn and Attack. Why not add defense Power tò have a Better identity and make those skills usable in pvp

[slow dome]

Let's try keep the sentiments of head banging to a minimum of we can, we all feel it, but we needn't add tension on top of tension. We're just aiming to be productive here!

[round yew]

@rare oar
Heres some starting data points (tried to build crit in these and use similar gear)

I agree that in 2h builds Gursa cant quite get there as noticeably, but non 2h gursa has the best ehp turn 1

Dursa AL 0 vs Gursa AL 0

[slow dome]

S2 as a good piece of context: Bordoadas was exploring the world of a lean into Two Handers, per my exercise. It might be best to look at two handed builds for a good representation of what Bord was getting at

[crimson bay]

Yes please. This might be selfish but if ursa isn't leaning into 2h weapons, I don't want to play it.

[round yew]

It wouldnt be a good representation of other classes comparison tho as they dont need 2h to do the damage. 2h on gursa here, non 2h on dursa per the builds compared.

[rare oar]

Yea, I’d say comparing GUrsa 2h vs other classes’ meta builds is the ideal way to test it imo

[slow dome]

Understood, just giving context that may have been missed here. Bord was humouring me, at my request

[round yew]

The way I see it, if the 2h bonus Ursa had also applied to the ward of the 2h wep, it probably would get it to where it needs to be in terms of ehp in 2h builds (or at least trend that way). Still reigns as ehp king in a 1h+shield, but thats off flavor and low damage for Gursa.

But that doesnt solve the drop off after turn 1 that ursa has no survivability from a big ward pool in hard content like anguish. Something like life siphon could help with that. Those two in combo would be pretty powerful. Life siphon in BoF guild for example is no joke with the house rules.

Thoughts?

[stoic yacht]

Al17 GUrsa vs al10RS dorado vs al10 Dursa - all same or very similar gear

[blazing tendon]

Thanks for the thought out reply! I think this falls in line with the

• Make 2H bonus apply to the weapon stats as opposed to 2H power

So given that, I entirely agree that would be great! and it's more so swapping slightly a passive as oppose to new things introduced

As for the life Siphon, Honest question, but would that plus WArd regen be considered too powerful? I woudl love some free HP regen thrown in (lets say reduce or eliminate the ward regen aspect, and swap it to a HP regen instead) That can balance it out, and if Gursa builds less around ward, having HP regen as opposed to ward could be nice.

So some solutions there with minor tweaks (to existing abilities)

[slow dome]

With that suggestion, and given CD is a strong part of Ursa identity coming out of this beta: would small % HP recovery on CD procs hit that desire?

[shut citrus]

Berserker healing for going berserk (CD proc) seems very thematic and flavorful

[stoic yacht]

Given that Frenzy causes a small amount of HP damage CD would help counter it

[quaint mural]

can I get a long bar on an X/Y axis

[crimson bay]

I do believe yoshi said yesterday that his ashen ruby takes care of any hp recovery he would need.

[round yew]

I love it as a prospective gursa player but ask the gilga mains

[quaint mural]

I've never had hp recovery issues in PvE. Ashen takes care of this

[gaunt nova]

Personally, dont really think the sustained survivability is much of a concern for me, care more about tanking an initial hit. For long form content sustain is easy to gear around.

[blazing tendon]

I could see it being useful in come PvE, but even then it would probably be less than a Ruby, as said above.

I may let the higher Ang players comment, I am running mid anguish (~20) but my DTS is really slowing down, cause I don't have dual of Yoshi's god tiers 40% crit 30% dragon 😛

[neon bramble]

It helps, you being here,, blending with the conversation.

[stoic yacht]

A single Ashen Ruby solves any HP issue I've run into or just just osmostrike

[calm moat]

I do agree that long fight survivability can be an issue for GUrsa and a lot of 2handed viability requires a celestial bow so I think this is a good idea.

[rare oar]

Agreed, I don’t think sustained survivability is the bigger issue, tanking the initial hit is where most issues come from

[stoic yacht]

Even with zerk1/2 up a single Ruby tops me off

[neon bramble]

Life siphon or recharge. I was thinking recharge cus that procs with crit. Life siphon is 'a chance to' which is the same as a ruby.

[crimson bay]

Would anyone be interested in some kind of reverse redlining system?

At max hp you get a big damage reduction or stats etc, when you start taking damage that reduction goes down possibly into taking extra damage (for balance)

[stoic yacht]

So far the options I've seen have been:

• Damage reduction with HP not ward
• Purple line with scaling stats/def/res as ward is reduced
• Recharge/life siphon from any damage or CD
• Increase HP multiplayer (unlikely due to scaling)
• Reduce ward scaling from Ursa to normal levels

[analog violet]

I suggested this and nobody liked it on the aethric side 😭 or it got declined for some reason, but I really like the idea of high hp=bigger damage

[round yew]

Collateral damage applying some guaranteed heal (not like 50% ruby) and 2h ursa boost giving full bonus to ward to give better ehp in 2h builds seems like some flavor and survivability all in one

[calm moat]

i continue to like the way you think : )

[slow dome]

Does seem to hit on the themes of the current design of Ursa quite well.
I'm curious how the coding works here, I'm not tech savvy enough to understand it, but I believe the bonus is to player stats with the weapon equipped rather than the weapon stats changing based on type equipped.

Similar to proficiencies

I wonder if it is at all possible to modify weapon stats themselves instead

[stoic yacht]

Herc does that already with shields

[blazing tendon]

Speaking of proficiencies... Can we add to the list that Gursa has some weird out-of-line ones. For instance Celestial Scythe and brilliant feathers etc two of the bigger crit 2Hers Gursa isn't proficient with and loses the 5%

[round yew]

I dig that. Polearm proficiency makes sense

[slow dome]

Just as a heads up guys, needn't ping on every reply ;)
Ping if absolutely necessary, but you can turn them off on replies that don't require a ping :)

[calm moat]

i agree that missing polearms has always felt odd especially as a new GUrsa

i think some sort of design where you get the full ward from a 2handed weapon but not from shields and such would be nice

[crimson bay]

Absolutely this. Maybe can we add greatbows as well? It is technically a 2h as well. Gursa can use theif gear as well atm

[round yew]

Hypothetical Proposal:

1. Collateral damage applies healing effect (or procs something that contributed to survivability)

2. Ursa 2h bonus applies to ward too, or just directly to weapon stats, similar to GHerc with Shield

3. Add polearm proficiency

4. Make more 2hs viable (i.e. super raid ones especially) for more build options and diversity. Example that came up was add unique raiding skills to 2hs.

5. Ursa Strikes to deal more damage with 2h equipped, and be competitive with ultimastrikes

Solves 2h ehp concerns, adds sustained survivability thats on flavor, Ursa becomes a hp healing class ish with 2hs, adds more build diversity

[calm moat]

I do think GUrsa is in a much better place PVP wise than most people give it credit for. I actually prefer a CD build in pvp but it pretty much requires a 2handed celestial bow. (I am a GUrsa main fyi)

IMO the ss changes actually make GUrsa stronger as its one of the few things that could one shot me. Now the GUrsa dex matters more.

[stoic yacht]

I feel like we have a lot of good ideas or directions for Ursa, should we make a poll with some of the options and see what everyone likes?

[slow dome]

I think Yoshi is at work and Strahd is out, but maybe bring them in on it later and see if they can add it to the post (assuming some agreeance from the crowd).

I'll be off to sleep shortly myself

[crimson bay]

I need to get back to work myself. I just want to add one last thing.

Is giving ursa some kind of built in heal off damage solving an issue that really doesn't exist right now.

Also thank you for all the input here dangy. We all do appreciate it.

[blazing tendon]

The only way poor Dangy can get a decent sleep is knowing ||Hoping || He won't wake up to a mess in the morning.

I'll keep in touch with Yoshi/Strahd. From what I gather Frenzy Variants isn't really on the drawing board for now? If there is no appetite for it, all good, but just maybe something to keep in mind for the future (I believe there are things that can/may need that may not be gear-able)

I also don't want all the Ursa chat to put the other points in the background. Mainly about Base gilga, and the various suggestions throughout the thread (I can search and resummarize if relevant/will help)

[quaint mural]

does this bring up a another problem completely? Is gursa only competent with a two hand cele bow because of dex?

[calm moat]

I think GUrsa hitting its higher damage capabilities with a 2hander really requires a celestial where you can't use ashen rubies so I do think a CD heal is helpful to the overall class design

[rare oar]

Celestial 2h in anguish content? You’re probably not going very far with that because of not being able to scale the weapon with anguish. Also stops you from using skills like slice and dragon tail sweep.

Idk if life siphon really moves the needle, but I’d be down to test the suggestion

[quaint mural]

right but what im saying is we are focusing on the cd heal when only being able to use cele weapons (1 in fact) sounds like a problem to me

[blazing tendon]

Issue here is you are eliminating mid to high Anguish. Cause Celestial can't get anguished.

[calm moat]

yes, I do think there is an issue of tying GUrsa pvp to one specific weapon. My hope is that can be solved with item tweaks as we go.

[stoic yacht]

Hammering out the issue of Ursa now is probably best with everyone already discussing it so getting something down as approved by the community would make it easier to move to the next discussion

[quaint mural]

gotcha. Im not playing gursa as a strict two hander currently so unware of whats best. Being able to leverage the existing bonus, as well as this proposed improved bonus looks good to me only if we have weapon diversity. Right now pve is thin blade?, and pvp is greatbow? hence my problem with this bonus is you only get its full benefit if you use 2 exact items else im going to go to dual wield. A bonus to class on a whole feels more beneficial

[calm moat]

its certainly content dependant. I am definitely using dragon tail sweep for dungeons and towers. but i have had some nervous dungeons because of ashen rubies not procing for multiple floors and lots of second chance mobs. its still nice,

But one of GUrsa's issues has been it not functioning in early AL situations so i think having the class function well overall is a good idea.

[round yew]

I dont see how this is different to other classes tbh. One wep always wins out. So if its a gursa problem its a larger everyone problem.

[pallid quarry]

A suggestion that might sound irrelevant but, on ursa you get more 2h power, what if you get that + a chance to random proc frenzy? Only if you have a 2h weapon
Might sound useless or not original tho, dont know if someone already suggested cuz there are too many messages to read lol

[blazing tendon]

I like it, this is all apart of the "Frenzy Variants" That has been thrown around.

Unsure if anyone said this exact one, but I will 110% support any extra use of frenzy

[rare oar]

Should we maybe focus on the other changes for now? I’d love some frenzy changes, but it seems that’s out of scope for this patch

[pallid quarry]

Yeah, was just an idea

[slow dome]

In general re: Frenzy

#1437493852457140265 message

[round yew]

You guys should consolidate the problem statement again it seems like opinions are all over the place on the exact problem, typically because of varying AL. My perception based on this discussion (correct me if wrong)

• Gursa lacks survivability (not well defined, ehp with 2hs i believe? )

• Gursa lacks flavor

[slow dome]

That's the gist from the start of my conversation with folks, yeah

[calm moat]

I do not agree that GUrsa lacks flavor. I will agree it can feel very unintuitive and doesn't really play like the class seems like its supposed to.

[slow dome]

To put the 'lacks flavour' senitment differently, some people identified Ursa as the CA class in PvP, and are just trying to wrap their heads around a different identity

[round yew]

I agree with this statement fwiw, but consolidating how others feel. I think it should just maybe lean more into its flavor if anything.

Hence why I thought this is a good proposal to work off of:

#1437493852457140265 message

[slow dome]

So at this point we're trying to help make it clearer to everyone what that identity is (to me, 2-hander + CD powerhouse class), so that we can move in the same direction together

[calm moat]

I 100% agree with this. They are already a cd powerhouse class and i agree we should lean into that. And improving how functional the 2handed portion is would be awesome as thats what it seems like the class should be.

[round yew]

I added a #4 in the proposal
#1437493852457140265 message

[slow dome]

Just pinning it as a working point for you guys to reference S2

Super appreciate having you and Omnus in here, been helpful. Yoshi will be dying at his work desk missing out atm haha

[crimson bay]

It's hard to me to make a bullit point rundown on mobile.
It seems everyone loves the flavor and identity of ursa. The main issue is survivability through eHP. A lot seem to enjoy the idea of gaining eHP thru mainly HP

[blazing tendon]

Could I ask a favor to reword #2?
2) Make 2H bonus apply to weapon stats

I believe that has been the main discussion, and covers what you said

[calm moat]

one complaint I have seen is that raiding for GUrsa is just more Ultima Strikes.

I had head dojoed the idea of Strikes of Ursa being tweaked to be more in the realm of damage as Ultima strikes but only gets there if you are using a 2handed weapon.

This may be outside the scope but if it was simple enough, i think something like this to help 2handed raiding and help GUrsa feel different could be cool.

[round yew]

Changed. Hows it look now

[rare oar]

🛳️

[round yew]

A 2h wep from a super raid with a raiding skill attached to it ? (Looking at you, lynx labrys)

[stoic yacht]

Yaaaaassss

[calm moat]

I think having something class based for raiding would be better than tieing it to a specific weapon

[round yew]

Ursa would get the real boost from it though because its on a 2h. Most classes rely on achlys offhands. I wouldnt want to completely restrict this from other classes who are also ultimastrikes locked. Make sense?

[slow dome]

Does innate HP recovery through CD procs help raiding some, too?
I understand it doesn't increase speed to kill, but should help the survivability during

[calm moat]

My point is that raiding with a 2hander shouldn't be event locked to a specific weapon. Having the class skill actually be good for raiding and GUrsa being designed to use 2handers and the thier class skill being 2handed focused could provide a good design space.

[round yew]

It's not though you still have ultimastrikes. Slice builds and brilliant lights / swansong are weapon locked too for example.

Build diversity but conditional, and great way to make specific 2hs more relevant

[stoic yacht]

Why not rework strike of Ursa?

[calm moat]

but Ultima strikes is way way better dual wielding and its just what everyone does. which is a complaint about identity.

US is the dual wielding raid option
strikes of ursa is the 2hander raiding option (in theory)

[round yew]

Gotcha I see your point. So make strikes of ursa more raidable with a 2h equipped?

I still like the idea of raid skills attached to 2hs fwiw in addition just as an idea to make non usable 2hs more relevant

[slow dome]

What would be the way to make it the more attractive option while two handing

[whole prism]

SoU can shine with a little love

[round yew]

'deals more damage with a 2h equipped' in the text of the skill, and making it competitive with ultimastrikes in terms of damage with that 2h

[calm moat]

make it a 2 turn skill like US, adjust damage so its below average US builds naturally but it has a boost when you are using 2handers or does increased CD with a 2hander equiped.

[stoic yacht]

Strikes of Ursa isn't able to crit right?

[whole prism]

Isn't SoU 2 turn currently?
Yes it can't crit

[round yew]

Honestly keeping it non crit could be awesome

Also updated the pinned post. Take a look. Thoughts?

#1437493852457140265 message

[calm moat]

probably make it a crit skill?. I feel like GUrsa is a crit class at this point.

I am likely forgetting its turns because its so bad it feels like a 3 turn skill

[neon bramble]

Yea it should probably crit imo too

[whole prism]

Keeping it non-crit could actually allow for more build diversity (i.e. Can build more around ward/HP or other stuff)

[slow dome]

Strikes of Ursa is 2 turn currently (Defend, then attack), but I could see how making it more effective with a two handed weapon would be great

It has 100% stun too, the most important part of a the skill

[neon bramble]

Make it: while defending, deal a hit of CD 😎

[round yew]

I gotta run for a while but ping me if you want me to add to /fix the pinned post of suggestions.

#1437493852457140265 message
Note the more consolidated and focused the feedback is, the more likely we can come to consensus. Try not to drift too far into the weeds. Would be great to be able to post a digestible proposal to NF at the end of this that most people are on board with

Thanks all, good discussion!

[slow dome]

Weird thought: Could strikes of Ursa just simply do more CD damage?
It'd make it very uniquely Gilga, and specifically Ursa

[whole prism]

Also 100% hitrate no?

[stoic yacht]

I can never have enough CD damage

[calm moat]

I would be totally fine with it doing boosted CD damage to make it comparable to Ultima stikes.

The one issues is summoner raids where the CD rarely hits the raid.

[rare oar]

I still enjoy CD there since it keeps the field clear. But I can agree it would be more annoying with a 2 turn skill

[neon bramble]

Lord Dangy isn't gonna sleep guys dont worry, up all night for ursa 😂

[stoic yacht]

Keeping strikes of Ursa non crit will allow us to use adornments we don't normally use but are all still good

[slow dome]

Heh, I need to. Wife is going out in 4 hours, and I'm Dad'ing.
But you know my motto, sleep is for the .....

[rare oar]

Summoners?

[calm moat]

i guess you could target the summons to try and get the big CD hit on the raid?

I am all for any tweak to try to make SoU a valid 2hander raiding strat. I thought i was pipe dreaming so i hadn't brought this up even though i have been thinking about it for months

[slow dome]

Look to be honest, I'm likely writing checks that Odie is unable to cash here. I'm just pleased to get the chatter more focused, it's been great to see that happen.
Makes it much more likely that we can get some things adjusted, rather than spiral and have it all seem too overwhelming to address

[calm moat]

if it needs to be simple for his ease is fine too. make it a skill that can only be used with a 2handed weapon but raise the damage until it feels competitive with raid builds

[calm moat]

small side thought, it would be kind cool if on that defend turn your resistance to status effects was higher so less likely to get stunned and the lose a turn for when the skill would go off,

Minor but just worth mentioning

[blazing tendon]

I take what you are saying, personally, as an experienced person, who has maybe a bit more of an idea of what is feasible and not (really helps that you kind of indicated messin g further with frenzy isn't a this patch thing) as opposed to "from the mouth of NFS".

I got a sick kiddo and been hella week, so super appreciate your efforts here, and ideas. Sometimes it can be hard to brainstorm and break the mould. Your suggestions are great ones that do exactly that.

You take care of your little ones, and make sure you you get some rest as well! Cheers mate!

I mean, its been stated in this thread that ultimately it comes down to Odie Strahd

[whole prism]

Just a quick idea

What if GUrsa got a passive to increase collateral dmg cap from the normal 9.9M cap? Kinda like the Heretic Ara passive but only effects collateral dmg

[pallid quarry]

Has someone ever hit cap with collateral?

[whole prism]

Yes it's possible to hit cap with collateral

[crimson bay]

What % of people are hitting that cap though.

Edit ** Im not saying it's a bad idea but if it's less then 1% of people can benefit from it, it doesn't do much as a whole

[stoic yacht]

Only people hitting that cap are using top tier gear/amenity and have the ALs to boost it

[stark venture]

Has there been any consideration to making collat more useful for aoe? Like now it can hit a second target if the first dies to the initial hit, why not make it continue to deal reduced damage (the excess damage?) to additional targets

[analog violet]

I have but adding on from tazi it was a decent amount of collat % I think it was 100% iirc

[calm moat]

I hit CD cap with ultima strikes all the time. Because US pseudo breaks damage cap because its two hits.

It wouldn't matter that much for it to break cap but its idea to hold onto depending on final tweaks

[analog violet]

Thats true tbf, the fact it also gets 2 hits meaning if you get 10 mil+ you're hitting CD cap

[proper wolf]

Ominus in the Chat!

[proper wolf]

Personally i would love a class that can actually use multi turn skills. I haven’t had my fingers on the pulse of Gilgamesh for a fat minute. But it was always an interesting unused playstyle imo

[stoic yacht]

With what looks to be a general consensus for Ursa changes done, how do we feel Herc is at currently?

Personally I'd love to see what it would look like to be able to wield 2 shields. With the loss of a weapon maybe herc could scale attack off of def/res like a reverse swash class. Would make it tanky with moderate attack depending on the amount of def/res you want to build.

[gaunt nova]

I don't think herc needs anything further, beta herc is strong

[whole prism]

Beta Herc looks good so far imho. The steadfast and ward start buffs were very great

[slow dome]

Yeah I agree, not sure we're looking to further tweak Hercules here.
Will be chatting to Odie about Ursa this week (bear in mind, final week before end of year stuff starts wrapping up), and see where we are at with base

[whole prism]

So we could possibly expect an early release for Herc and Base after finishing a few tweaks with base?

[fierce marsh]

Hehe, bear in mind

[sterile monolith]

What was the consensus we reached on Ursa? 🤔

[whole prism]

@sterile monolith

[sterile monolith]

Thanks!

[neon bramble]

Also Strikes of Ursa change to make it usable. And sort of increase to its hp.

[blazing tendon]

Yeah, Herc is fine. If anything it would be something that would separate Base out from the others, but honestly the best thoughtline for that is the "Frenzy Variants" Which we have been pateintly and politely informed won't be in scope this Beta.

So put "Frenzy Variants" on the wishlist for next time,

One thing I didn't see on the list @sterile monolith and @round yew Is the scaling passive. That could make a big difference though also understood if out of scope the patch. But I don't want that request to get lost in everything else. The top "wants" for Ursa right now is frenzy variant and scaling passive I see, and then the others in the list to smooth things out

[rare oar]

I’d say the list is a great starting point for things to be addressed in this patch, and new passives and frenzy variants will probably be something we see later down the road

[fallen ginkgo]

i kinda lost track with this chat, so tldr: ursa is getting changes 😂 but is herc getting anything?

[whole prism]

More ward power, steadfast 2, more ward start (starts at 30% bastile now) thats all I know for now atleast

[fallen ginkgo]

Oh yes please can we go live now? 😂🤣🤣

Do you know what the ward power increase is gonna be? And can we all just agree to disagree now and let the changes go live?! 🤷‍♂️😅

[rare oar]

The ward power is increased but SS is nerfed. It’s a nerf to damage overall when you take those 2 into account

Ward power is also a M2 boost, meaning you can be zero’d out more easily

[fallen ginkgo]

Oh… nvm lets keep talking abt changes

[whole prism]

Ward power is M2 and nerf is M1 IIRC

And I don't think changes will go out early tbh. Base still needs a little love

[rare oar]

Herc is overall in a good place. Still not sure what role base gilga is going to fill, and Ursa is pretty much dead right now, which is why we’ve been discussing changes for it.

There was a bigger nerf to spiked shield that was paired with bigger ward power buffs, which aimed to make it less usable by other classes, but that change was (unfortunately) reverted

[whole prism]

So far base gilga is the dungoen class afaik due to siphon ward and decent survivabilty. Though thats kind of the only use. SF3 could probably come handy in a few builds but doubt a 10% diffrence would make up for the damage base loses against Herc

[fallen ginkgo]

Yeah i remember what the old nerf to SS was gonna be and i was massively looking forward to that, the fact they reverted it is very unfortunate, i do agree herc is in a good place right now, we’ll see after the SS nerfs tho, i feel like nerfing SS as a whole is tricky cause other classes have other options but herc doesnt really, very tanky but still decent dmg tho for now, only drawback is its veryyyy gear dependent which sucks for new players but from what ive read isnt ursa supposed to be the intro into gilga c classes after the changes?

[spark sandal]

I’m a little surprised that Ursa is the subclass being focused on here. It seems like Base and Herc already cover very similar roles, and perhaps the bigger opportunity is in further differentiating them. If Ursa isn’t intended to excel in certain types of content, it feels reasonable that players could lean into Herc for those situations. Does every subclass need to perform the same content equally, or is it okay for each to have clearer strengths and trade-offs?

[rare oar]

Ursa has no clearer strengths right now, that’s exactly why it’s being focused on

[whole prism]

Ursa falls early behind in late ang content when you compare it to Herc and base

[rare oar]

And is on par with them in early Ang content

[spark sandal]

That makes sense, and I may just be missing some of the testing that shows the gap clearly, especially in late-Ang content. I’d be interested in seeing more examples so it’s easier to understand where Ursa is intended to fit compared to Base and Herc. In cases where late-Ang content favors Base or Herc, is switching subclasses considered an acceptable or intended solution, or is the expectation that Ursa should perform equally well there too?

[rare oar]

Where Ursa is intended to fit is up to the devs to decide. I don’t think all classes should have similar performances across all content, having to switch between your celestials and base should be a goal every classline should aim for imo. My personal preference would be that Ursa would continue to be the better option for PvP, while having base and herc stronger in PvE

[spark sandal]

That makes sense. I guess my only question is why the late-Ang discussion seems so Ursa-focused if subclass swapping is expected. With the recent balance changes, it feels like players may naturally start switching more based on the content they’re doing, which could help address some of these concerns over time.

[rare oar]

Part of the concerns are late ang focused because early ang isn’t really challenging with any class. The biggest complaint with new Ursa however is lack of survivability, its inability to clear high ang is just a consequence of that

[calm moat]

What if 2handed power was also damage reduction?

While using a 2hander all incoming damage is reduced by 20% after buffs etc. Kinda like elemental resistance. Its never going to reduce to 0. But could smooth out the high end content and pvp where the lower ward is a huge deal.

Adding encourage to use a 2hander as well

[rare oar]

The proposed change to have the 2h bonus apply to all stats also achieves that, by slightly boosting Ward to increase your eHP. End of the day, I think there are a lot of ways to achieve this, just hope NF can look at all the suggestions and find something we’ll be satisfied with

[quaint mural]

im happy where base and herc have landed in beta. Something like the above ("eHp" solutions) that has flavor for gursa all look great and sounds like what most of us seem to be coalescing around. Hopefully we could see one of these bonuses applied to the beta sometime soon to test it out.

[fallen ginkgo]

Have you noticed much of a dmg nerf for herc in beta Mainly in raids?

[gaunt nova]

Imo its a slight damage nerf that gets worse the higher anguish you are, but for raids frenzy is easier to maintain which should help smooth it out.

[fallen ginkgo]

Yeah that makes sense, i recently got my first beg axe X at ornate so i found the easy life of only having to worry about mana and keeping DC up, with the frenzy change tho ill be able to add that to the mix for just slightly more effort

[quaint mural]

Yeah it’s not a herc specific change it’s a reduction to SS. Only feel the impact on raids with very high stats like high anguish

[fallen ginkgo]

Sweet, im AL 15 and very low ang so that wont effect me, by the time i get there theyll probably have made more changes 🤷‍♂️

[empty meteor]

quick pulse check: an in-battle CD proc based passive should...

1️⃣ Give me power (ie: Ara Apex use)
2️⃣ Give me momentum (ie: RS Corvus crit)
3️⃣ Give me survivability (ie: Recharge)

[haughty crest]

I feel like power goes the furthest here, atleast for longer forms of content, think dungeons or (waygate) raids.

Personally i find recovery is fine with ward siphon / an ashen ruby Edit: Odie changed the third option from recovery to survability

[slow dome]

With power, you'd be able to recover easier via other means yeah. Osmostrike etc even, and Ashen will cover you well

[blazing tendon]

I voted the power, but one of the big factors for me is consisting floor to floor, e.g. For dungeon use/endless.

So if that is a factor in the power vs momentum, then I'd go for whichever one can persist between floors

[rare oar]

Since survivability was edited, is anything other than recharge being considered? Survivability is the bigger issue right now but I don’t think the issues are regen related, but stat related (effective HP mostly)

[empty meteor]

stuff in parentheses are quick examples, not proposed solutions

[round yew]

The examples we gave in the pins were better ehp from a 2h and some sort of recharging on cd proc but not limited to

[rare oar]

I’m much more of a fan of tying survivability to having a 2h equipped than to CD tbh. Be that by either having the stats scale with the passive or by having a %reduced damage taken when wielding one. Feels more thematic and actually protects you much more from the one shot scenarios in high anguish we discussed

[calm moat]

I agree there. While a small recharge would be nice, I am definitely in favor of 2handers giving a def/res increase or a flat damage reduction to just help keep us alive

[sterile monolith]

I've been team scaling stats since the introduction of GUrsa. Either replacing or in addition to Crest.

[fallen ginkgo]

Quick question for devs or anyone who knows for sure, is 200k ward the cap for when it influences damage? Cause i heard some people saying 175k and now im mot sure 😂

Oh also idk if herc is still on the table but i feel like raising that cap (whatever it may be) slightly for herc might be a good way to keep its identity while not making it overpowered, just a thought, especially with the SS m1 nerf

[crimson bay]

I find it interesting that last week we all felt like survivability was the issue and the on odies poll the overwhelming consensus is more power

[quaint mural]

probably because the example provided was recharge, though that was just a quick example in Odie's words. Similarly, more power in the form of scaling CD passive a la 'Ara Apex use' as the example inspires hope for endless viabilitiy. Again, multiple comments and upvotes after support the idea of 2h eHp solutions. I don't think folks are as interested in building survivabiliy around CD proc instead of something inherent to ursa passive. Unrelated I only just noticed that 10% ward regen is in beta on ursa.

[stoic yacht]

Change ward power to a flat % DMG reduction

[slow dome]

At this stage I wouldn't say we'll look to reopen the whole conversation for other ideas - Odie's poll is following the conversation and consensus last week, and my follow up with him from there. Let's not start the theory crafting alternate ideas just yet :)

[round yew]

I too find this interesting.

Not participating in this poll, as its an obvious power landslide, and definitely want Gursa to be fun and viable. Just wondering if Gursa gets power scaling like this, would it have any weaknesses? Strong early, late scaling, ..?

[slow dome]

I think Odie's aiming more for something fun and interactive, than too strong and inactive

[crimson bay]

I trust odie and NFS to do what's best for ursa and the game regardless of what we think would be best or fun

[quaint mural]

this is what im looking for!

[slow dome]

regardless of what we think would be best or fun
Oh, we're actually aiming to disappoint you all equally

Major goal of every balance patch

[quaint mural]

btw I was doing some testing on beta I thought these changes were available but the ward consumption looks like its the same as live (e.g. SS3 is consuming 50k ward in beta and live from my testing). Was this change rolled back?

nvm, misunderstanding on how it works

[rare oar]

To be fair, the poll initially said recovery, not survivability, and was only edited after a fair share of votes was already in. I think in the conversation we were pretty unanimously in agreement that recovery wasn’t a major necessity, which might help explain the results.

TBH, survivability is a much bigger concern than power for me. I’d gladly opt out of a CD power based change for something that increased survivability (like the suggested 2h changes)

I wouldn’t call tying survivability to CD a fun change, I’ll still be blowing up when a t10 boss even looks my way

[fallen ginkgo]

Are we finally coming to a consensus on the changes?!?! It may just be a Christmas miracle!! Hopefully the changes go live soon but im sure theres more fine-tuning to be done

[rare oar]

I mean, I’m pretty sure we reached the closest thing possible to a consensus a few days ago already. Now we need to see what the studio actually takes from that and presents in the beta

Don’t think we’re close to live, we’ll still need to test whatever gets brought forward

[fallen ginkgo]

Ah ok thats valid, hopefully we get it before christmas but all good if not, id personally rather it not be rushed and the devs take their time with it 🤷‍♂️

[rare oar]

Im fine with with it taking its time, especially since we’re already at the end of the year and I’m sure the studio wants to enjoy the holidays as well

[fallen ginkgo]

Yeah exactly

[mellow stone]

Maybe get rid of gursa's ward malus and make him unable to equip an offhand, that'd help with survivability 🤔
(Just throwing ideas)

Edit: or decrease the malus. Having that little ward usually means ultimates will delete us

[rare oar]

The idea behind the having the 2h boost apply to the weapons stats is that it would also boost the ward given by 2h weapons, helping increase eHP and survivability, without removing the ward malus

[mellow stone]

Oooooooo thats very clever!

[round yew]

#1437493852457140265 message

In the pins from the other day.

As an aside - I also wouldnt call majority voting 'extra power' as finally reaching consensus. This was a poll constructed such that the results were going to be obvious imo. Big kudos to Dangy & Odie trying to reach out on a Monday around the holidays though!

[rare oar]

When I said consensus I was more referring to the pinned post than the poll, sorry if that sounded confusing

[round yew]

Ya was mostly responding to another comment. Agreed with your thoughts here

[sterile monolith]

I believe most people (I know I did) took this as a scaling stat passive given the example. Which is what many people have wanted all along. So just saying people voted for 'extra power' is not a fair representation I don't think.

[round yew]

The poll says 'give me power' as an option. So how is that not what people voted for.

#1437493852457140265 message

I asked it here already and didnt get much of an answer. If it gets a stat scaling passive, what weaknesses does gursa have? I dont see any

[rare oar]

Survivability in PvP won’t be affected by a scaling passive

[round yew]

With a 1h+shield equipped, gursa has the highest ehp in the game turn 1 with proper second chance.

And so far Im the only one who has really shown any numbers on that matter.

[sterile monolith]

I am not even going to dignify this with a detailed response. All I'll say is scaling stat passive of an appropriate level won't make the class broken. And I am not sure wtf HP has to do with a scaling stat passive as they have never scaled HP

[rare oar]

Im playing devil’s advocate here. I’ve been pretty vocal about seeing survivability as the #1 priority on what Ursa needs

[round yew]

I absolutely dont disagree but its not a pvp problem which you referenced here. So not a weakness as described. Also 'give me power' doesnt accomplish that.

@sterile monolith while you were away the feedback I was getting was gursa lacked survivability, especially with a 2h equipped. Hence the eHP talk. Nothing to do with stat scaling.

[sterile monolith]

stat scaling directly effects survivability as well

[gaunt nova]

I don't see a scaling stat passive make ursa the obvious choice for me for anywhere but endless tbh

[sterile monolith]

In the end, I don't really care, any of the options listed have the potential to be huge. But to imply that the players who voted for a scaling stat passive based off collateral damage procs are just voting for 'extra power' as in making a selfish choice just galled me.

[round yew]

Gursa is inherently good at short encounters with CD and good eHP. A stat scaling passive as referenced in the poll similar to apex ara (which is also completely busted and I tried advocating for some balance over there) basically gives it short encounter and long encounter power. Gursa not competing with Gilga/herc for anguish content is probably the nature of the beast when it comes to SS3 - immense survivability with good enough damage - which has always been the benchmark for comparison with Gursa.
I really dont know a way to fill that gap while not being OP except to give gursa more survivability somehow. Im not going to get involved further, I just find it interesting that after consensus on survivability everyone gravitated to power when given the option.

[round yew]

You can call it what you want but apex ara is one of the best passives in the game, and DAra doesnt have the same early encounter benefits that Gursa has. It is absolutely power, as suggested in the poll per Odies wording.

[gaunt nova]

Depends on how hard and how fast it scales. If we're raiding, towering etc.

I'd prefer to just come out the gate with gilga h 30% stats and a mammoth buff to 60%. Ursa would need to hit 20% before even breaking even with current ursa.

I think a lot of people have wanted a better stat passive on ursa for a long time. I'm fine with the survivability option, but don't think CD is the place to do it and studio seems to be leaning into CD identity.

[sterile monolith]

That's making several assumptions. One being that it is a mirror version of Apex Ara and not some other versions that may not be as strong or as easy to stack up.

[round yew]

Look i sincerely appreciate NFs outreach on this poll but the results were so predictable Vegas wouldnt even pay me out.

All im saying is this didnt quite align with what the consensus was a few days ago.

Regardless, I hope for the best for the class as its one of my favorites. I look forward to the outcome.

[rare oar]

Let’s be fair here. Survivability wasn’t there when the first 20ish people voted, it was regen, which people cleared said they didn’t want.

Also, people have cleared stated they don’t want survivability to be tied to CD, but to using 2h weapons. Even the example given in option 3 (recharge) is a terrible example of boosting survivability and not what I’d want to see on Ursa. Let’s not blame the players for voting for option 1 when the other 2 were also clearly subpar and not what we discussed previously

[strong rose]

I agree, I think a survivability passive linked to 2h weapon use would make a lot of Gilga players happy, me included.

[round yew]

Agree with survivability on 2h (and just more 2h love in general)

[crimson bay]

Dangy did say earlier that odie wanted something more fun and creative? Interactive? So us being like well just have a damage reduction attached to using 2h isn't in the realm of what NFS is looking to do apparently

[round yew]

Sounds great so long as its balanced for sure. Gursa is strong it just lacks in the survivability department in longer encounters from what I hear (as im only experienced in the short encounter department) and yeah only classes with stat scaling are good at endless.

[quaint mural]

thank you for articulating this, sums up to me why the vote went the way it did. you could have replaced option 1 with one of the other asks we have put forward and it would of been similarly high. Also lets pay attention to Odie's words, "stuff in parentheses are quick examples, not proposed solutions ". He isnt recommending literally give ursa Diety Ara Apex line

[rare oar]

Unpopular opinion, but not everything needs to be a fun new passive. Sometimes a class just needs something straightforward to be useful and engaging.
Fun mechanics are great, but if the class becomes less useful because of them then that’s dev time that just goes to waste

I’d be perfectly happy with one of the suggested 2h options (and polearm proficiency because it just makes sense)

[round yew]

I absolutely resonate with this. The reason i typically play the simpler class designs (gursa/realmD/beoH)

[crimson bay]

As well as me. I also don't know if NFS has the numbers but how popular is/was ursa outside of pvp. I know it was popular and powerful because of CA

[shut citrus]

I’d agree with this as well

Flasks and Apex are fun with big numbers and utility but sometimes it’s nice to just get an extra turn, or a collateral damage hit or sit behind your pets, summons or ward- or even just play without worrying about any of that

[slow dome]

Hey guys,
I get you're all nervous and anticipate something that doesn't work here, but let's please be open minded and try not to make the conversations yucky again if we can!

I had a lengthy conversation with folks last week, we got some good stuff out of it.

I mentioned I'm not the dev, so won't be designing anything here, but I have put it in front of Odie and he's aware. So from here he's just getting his creative juices flowing, nothing deeper than that.

Let's keep excitement high, it's more motivating to work with.

For now it may be a good idea to lock the thread until we have something new to play with, thoughts?

[strong rose]

Odie is the man. I’m excited to see where he takes Gursa and appreciate you looking out for us and all that you do as well, Dangy. Much love!

[stoic yacht]

Appreciate you helping us Dangy

[dapper flame]

So can other classes give their opinions already? Or is the Gilga patches going to be worked on only by Gilga mains?

[haughty crest]

^

[sterile monolith]

If you are basing your feedback on live, then I'd say it is not that helpful. If you are basing your feedback on testing from beta. Then I'd say it is helpful.

After all we want the class to feel fun to play for vets and new players alike. Hopefuly we get something that makes people want to stick with it.

If all you have to add is some theoretical feeling based on old data about how it compares on live versus x class then it only adds to the emotional arguments we and the studio have to sort through.

[dapper flame]

Thing is…for the last couple betas, I haven’t been able to test at all. Pretty sure I’m not the only one. IMO, splitting up the people that can have an opinion sets up a really tough precedent. And while true, I may not have been able to test and therefore giving an opinion could be tough, I hope then going forward, other classes will be more aware of giving their opinions on other classes. I could, theoretically, give an opinion based on pictures and testing other people have done…but there’s not a lot of that. Either way, I have a lot of catching up to do. But hopefully the conversation will be open to everyone sometime soon, in the spirits of showing the testing done and how it will positively impact the game..

[slow dome]

We aren't against other classes sharing thoughts, but in this case we understand how other classes have been impacted by Gilgamesh/Gilgamesh skills, so there is no need to rehash it all.

In general the circular discourse was far too much to parse through, and really didn't get anywhere.

For right now, we're not seeking additional feedback as we have a good bit to work through for Gilga before we look for more

[dapper flame]

Oh. I get they why. For sure. The convo was ridiculous, I agree. The solution is what I don’t really love. I’m not going to start a discussion because, like I said, I need to read everything and pay more attention to the smaller details. But, I saw the mindset of “every class is supposed to be better at some things than others”. I agree with this, except in PvP. In PvP I think it should always be a RPS type of thing. Everyone should have a weakness. Only the players that actually play all classes should have an “advantage”(if they pick the right class to counter). To see people say gursa is the best, or one of the best, classes at PvP, which it most certainly is, and want it to be good at high anguish…is crazy to me. It definitely doesn’t deserve to have any edge on PvP. If it has no survivability in high anguish, but in PvP is oppressive (HP), that’s gonna be a tough fix. The eHP in PvP is by far the best. PvP shouldn’t be one of those categories.

But yeah, I’ll agree either way both of yall for today. That’s a conversation for the next batch of changes. But please, make sure that people are posting pictures or videos of what they are seeing. Apple isn’t making it easy for any of us. Gear, AL (if it applies) and they type of content that’s being talked about, helps a lot.

[rare oar]

I think the current discussion has run its course and we’ve all made the points we thought were important. I’m not against closing the thread until Odie actually releases something on beta that we need to test.

I will, however, second what MW is saying about the Apple situation. Separating a big portion of the player base from testing is frustrating for the players and reduces the amount of useful feedback the studio gets. I get Apple isn’t the easiest to work with but other games and apps make it work, so I’d hope the studio can make the necessary work to make the beta available to everyone.

[slow dome]

Definitely agree that contextual evidence is paramount, and have encouraged it quite a lot in this thread. With you there MW

We don't design around classes being best at content buckets either, so wouldn't stress about that

Re: Apple - Odie has addressed this one multiple times, we agree it sucks. Wish it were an easier process, but we're a tiny studio and are a low priority to them, so pushes are really tough

[rare oar]

Has anything been pushed this current beta? There’s a version in TestFlight that just doesn’t load past the first screen

[dapper flame]

On the heretic patch I got to test I think it was the last 2 days iirc. That’s just unacceptable on their end. But it’s Apple. At their level, they couldn’t care less. But no pressure on the studio. We know that’s not on you guys.

[slow dome]

Unsure, I don't deal with that stuff.
I know that the process is much more convoluted, so perhaps it hasn't been something Odie can do amongst all the updates he's been pushing to live, and the stuff he's been hotfixing daily with live and beta

[neon bramble]

Ye think now is a good time to lock it.

[blazing tendon]

100% I am in the Lock catagory.

We spoke, we rambled, cried and bled, but things are hashed out in every which way. Until there are changes to test or go through locking the thread I think is healthier for everyone!

In the meantime let's just all run some Yel towers and GF some stuff!

[slow dome]

No worries, will lock it for now and re-open when it's test time again.
Thanks for the contributions, and go out there and have some fun for now!

[empty meteor]

Today's update

- Gilgamesh Ursa: Added HP recovery on Collateral damage hits
- Strikes of Ursa, X Slash, X Slash II, and X Slash III now all deal increased collateral damage
- Gilgamesh Ursa: Added Polearm proficiency```

[slow dome]

WE LOVE ODIE

[haughty crest]

x slash*

[empty meteor]

you're right, patch cancelled i guess

[lapis hornet]

Wait, so any two handed power source is also an equivalent % boost to ward?

That has.. implications for plenty more than just gilga huh

[empty meteor]

it does, yeah

[rare oar]

Oh

[lapis hornet]

Suddenly Treveleyan Charms are a massive ward boost, same as pumpkinless gear, and even the 2h anguish passive (for pants)
This might mean, if it all stacks multiplicatively, that suddenly 2h builds have more ward than shield builds
Math must be made. To the testing chambers!

[marble bone]

Oh man!

[rare oar]

Love everything. Thought the change to 2h would be Ursa only but I’ll save feedback on that for when I’m off work and able to check the beta and see how it impacts both Ursa and other classes

[empty meteor]

personally, i do worry about this one, so it might get yoinked to be ursa only

[quaint mural]

what is this a picture for ants.

[robust terrace]

might be a reduced boost to everything else and normal boost to ursa deal? 😅 that does seem like a big difference

[rare oar]

Tbf that’s using one of the highest ward 2h and all the boosters, don’t think you can get a scenario where that boost is much higher

[blazing tendon]

More worrisome than Trev charms would be pumpkinless gear. With URsa's ward reduction, not so bad, but now Herc/deity/beo/base gilga etc get a bonus 7% ward on chest and legs... Wowzers.

I mean... would love it on my raiding herc... But yeah, I can see it getting yoinked quite quickly XD

Trying to get numbers for you now and compare live vs Beta on Ursa vs Herc

[quaint mural]

104k live / 191k beta w/ ymir just slapping on random items to make some comparisons

[indigo rivet]

254k Live vs 312k beta on RS. It's quite a big difference with just 2h power from pumpkinless/anguish

[blazing tendon]

Just realized I got my raids shackled, so I am apparently demonstrating AL 65 not 135.... But incoming once I get live on Base/Ursa

[haughty crest]

tried to see if i could drop the ruby from this build.

I'm pretty tied to hoping for CD to proc on certains floors.

The CD heal doesn't quite make up for ruby so it's probably going to be an added on bonus rather than a replacement

[pallid pond]

The changes nearly doubles the ward on my torment build which is made purely for mag DMG not ward
80,163 -> 156,055
Definitely probably best to make this a Gilga/Ursa only thing

[blazing tendon]

Alright going to post everything so people can note of I made a mistake or something In gearing
edit: Damnit, shouldnn't of hit enter. incoming in 1m30 seconds

[empty meteor]

ok, i'm taking the ward thing out

[blazing tendon]

For all or Leaving Ursa out of curiosity?

Also deleted mine because my beta pumkpinless is not GF'd and live is... Sigh.

So that really messed up comparison

[slow dome]

The Two Handed power passive is shared, so it's removed in beta across the board.
It was the way we could get it onto Ursa, but Odie did flag in our meeting right now that it seems too much before I bullied him into trying it 😂

Let's play with the other changes, see how it all feels and if need be, revisit later

[rare oar]

There was a similar proposal that was “reduced damage while wielding a 2H weapon”, might be an easier passive to test on Ursa without throwing every other class out of balance at the same time 😅

[blazing tendon]

Just to confirm @quaint mural was your comparison on Ursa?

I think @pallid pond May have been on Beo?

Edit: Just trying to see if we are looking at numbers for the ward with Ursa or if that got tested vs the only data on other classes. Not asking it to be reimplemented, just wanted to file in my mind of testing knowledge

[pallid pond]

Yee, BeoH

[gaunt nova]

Is it possible we can just make ursa function like Hercules and have the stats enhanced for ursa that way?

[round yew]

Absolutely love the changes - but the 2h ward boost should only apply to GUrsa imo. Maybe via GUrsa's passive.

Also agree with what Yoshi is saying about the heal not quite working as we may have envisioned since CD isnt always proccing when using AOE and one shotting (but then, do you really need the recharge? Probably more useful at higher anguish) more testing needed i just ran one dungeon with it so far.

Amazing work from the team, big kudos for the quick turnaround during a hectic month!

[empty meteor]

it applies to no one now

[slow dome]

Not without much heavier time investment, requires a whole new passive build.
As above, let's play with the other changes and see how it feels, then revisit later if necessary!

Also agree with what Yoshi is saying about the heal not quite working as we may have envisioned since CD isnt always proccing when using AOE and one shotting (but then, do you really need the recharge? Probably more useful at higher anguish) more testing needed i just ran one dungeon with it so far.
Perhaps it's just a matter of shifting the % a little. Appreciate the testing!

[round yew]

I absolutely do think that the 2h ward changes should be applied to GUrsa though in some better way tied to its passive. That is a huge barrier to making turn1 ehp balanced and 2hs fully adoptable for Ursa

[slow dome]

Yep, with you there. Hence bullying Odie haha
We'll see how the rest of things play out, to see if anything else needs adjustment.

Hopeful that once this Ursa stuff is settled, we can move to live shipping for Gilga changes

[rare oar]

Herc and Base seem to be ready for live imo, so hopefully we can get Ursa to a good place so we can get that done. Thank you for bullying the big man for us

[haughty crest]

How come the heal is capped at 10% of my HP o.O

[round yew]

Definitely seems low. What do you think it should be?

[haughty crest]

10% of the CD damage, right now it's 10% max hp regardless of damage

I guess my initial interpretation differs from the way the passive is described:

Collateral Damage HP Recovery +10%

[round yew]

Summary of further tweaks:

• Make 2h bonus to ward only apply via Gursa Passive

• CD Ursa Vamp effect to apply to 10% of CD damage, not 10% of players HP

• (potentially) explore crit on x slash skills

?

[gaunt nova]

At this point if its easier to implement, wouldn't it make sense to just revert some or all of the ward reduction built into ursa? Seems kind of roundabout to reduce a classes ward and then need to develop a new specific passive to give it ward back.

If someone wants to hit 200k ward and run a ss build you can generally still do it on ursa even with the reduction. But I don't think those builds will be valuable without the ward power.

[slow dome]

The ward thing was about encouraging two handed use, and reducing ward penalty does the opposite of that

[gaunt nova]

Let ursa only equip 2 handers and have covyn make a new sprite with just one beefy arm.

[neon bramble]

Thats why I preferred Recharge, i know then its not related to CD. You can then drop Siphon ward instead.

[gaunt nova]

While I'm seriously 100% fine with this approach, Im not sure I agree with incentivizing 2H play by disincentivizing other builds. If a 2H leans its power budget into ward it will potentially be more usable on other classes than ursa, since ursa cannot use its full stat line.

If the concern is SS build, why should other non-gilga classes have access to that more than ursa? But honestly I don't see a player who has AL in Gilgamesh using ursa for SS rather than Herc in current beta.

[haughty crest]

I'd prefer an approach that reduces incoming damage, like Bordoadas suggested above. I dont really care for recharge in a world of lifesiphon / ward siphon but that's a personal opinion

[proper wolf]

These are cool changes. Fun to see gursa be more crit and cd focused

[steep forum]

Imagine this in war def your herc gets hit but got second chance now uses SS3 hits with coll and heals you then your mammoth uses db

[haughty crest]

the cd heal change is ursa only and only 1/10 of your HP

[analog violet]

I agree with this when ashen Ruby exists, as well you get to a point where one hit just gets you straight to full

[quaint mural]

incoming damage reduction is preferred yes. there are multiple existing solutions to hp management

[steep forum]

I remembered that but couldn't say cuz of the chat timer

[round yew]

Something like CD procs increase defenses by 5% each up to 25% ?

We would definitely have to be careful because the defense&penetration formula (in my PvP experience, but applying it to PvE here) can get extremely out of whack busted with enough buffs, especially against enemies who dont have any sort of m1.

That being said, I like the idea with the right balance of numbers in lieu of the recharging.

[haughty crest]

I'm trying to think of simpler to implement suggestions, building on already existing things seems to be the play here.

There's already a (multiple turn spell) damage reduction from efacicaikious, not sure how to convert it over. Having 2h be the only condition might be a bit boring

[robust terrace]

spot on spelling

if you got one letter different you would've spawned an ancient deity

[rare oar]

I wouldn’t like to see it associated with CD personally. Would rather see it paired with having to wield a 2h weapon to further incentivize 2h wielding

[round yew]

What type of % would be fair there? The only difference is short vs long encounters really, which is mostly PVP implications

[rare oar]

It’s also a difference for tower encounters, where you don’t really get to stack CD for that long. Also, boosting defense and resistance is not as useful, given how enemy stats scale in anguish and given the fact most players will probably be using BoF more often than not

[shut citrus]

I think flat damage reduction sounds very difficult to balance between “doesn’t do anything” and “is broken”

But whatever happens, I would love to see GUrsa be the 2H Beast of a class it looks like.

Bonus points if the 2H portion could extend in some form to the other Ursa class too

[crimson bay]

Wow these changes look amazing, last i saw this morning we were locking this until further changes then bam! Can't wait to do some testing here myself

[calm moat]

I am very excited about the CD focused skills. I think thats a wonderful direction.

But so far I think strikes of ursa needs to get a lot better like becoming a crit skill or its just not going to stack up up compared to other options.

Overall I still think this a great step forward.

[crimson bay]

Yeah im loving how we have Cd focused skills as well. I am curious though, Do we start adorning for 2h power, or for CD. iirc there's not an adorn that gives you both

[calm moat]

Thats definitely been a challenge for a while now. I am not sure its a perfect answer. When i want to make sure i get over the hump of one shotting most stuff with aoe skill, i would go for power. But in dungeons i really like my cd to hit hard enough to one shot realmshifters so in that case i do more CD damage.

But i think maintaining these two avenues as being an interesting balance should be maintained in my opinion.

[shut citrus]

Sounds like a Prometheus Augment giving a bit of both would be a good start!

Kind of like the Oceanus Augment that lets Bloodray double dip in Flask Power and Crit Damage but means some Ashen Pinions are required to reach the Crit Chance

[mellow stone]

Well then stay tuned for january's new event 😉

is what i'd say if I was a dev. But its just wushful thinking lol
Two handed power + CD would be great

[quaint mural]

[empty meteor]

today's update:

- Ursa gets bonus Ward when holding a 2handed weapon```

[slow dome]

@haughty crest @round yew ^ 👀

[gaunt nova]

I think these changes feel good, ward seems appropriate enough to help the eHP while two handing. CD changes seem to help a bit with survivability, particularly in places you're running a lot of buffs. I'd be satisfied if it shipped like this.

[quaint mural]

🚢

[gaunt nova]

🛳️

[haughty crest]

This is a lot better, the change is appreciated.

I still can't help but think that i was already doing fine as is with just one ashen ruby due to higher availability and more healing (proccing on every AoE instance rather than just the CD one).

Personally I think I'd prefer the +10% ward regen we had prior (positive recovery with frenzy even).

Can everyone give me a thumbs up or down perhaps?

[slow dome]

How do I disable thumbs downs? I want this shipped haha

[quaint mural]

i prefer 10% ward regen but im also okay with just ripping it

[slow dome]

Current iteration + ashen ruby would maybe be really survivable, too. Better flavour than making it be a ward regen class like base

[calm moat]

I think i like the health recovery. It helps young GUrsas without all the event gear and it can be key for those awkward moments when ashen doesn't proc for 5 turns.

I think its worth keeping.

[haughty crest]

I mean this isn't a deal breaker type thing or anything.

Classes are rarely intensively touched on like this, I'd rather do it right now

[quaint mural]

can always access ward regen via cele adorns or amity. this is certainly more unique and differentiates from base

[haughty crest]

I'd wager the odds of CD healing not proccing (or rather not being able to proc due to missing circumstances like second chance enemies) are higher than the static 50% chance on rubies.

What event gear are you refering to? Ashen rubies are gonna be base game coming next year, me thinks

[calm moat]

My one remaining request is that strikes of ursa become a crit skill. I think this really opens up a different raid style for Gursa which would be sweet. it just doesn't hit hard enough to be viable atm.

I am overall excited about the current beta for GUrsa so if that can't fit in, i am not going to cry (publicly).

[slow dome]

Ashen Rubies are currently event content, and there are no promises to make it base game. We're unsure of the route that goes just yet

[round yew]

Cool changes. Look forward to seeing more viable 2hs in the future ! Defer any final changes to Yoshi and the long term gilga mains. Ran a dungeon and feels/looks good to me. Thanks Dangy. Hope this is a solution everyone likes

[calm moat]

The chance of missing both for many consecutive turns feels unlikely. And against high health bosses its probably most useful or anguish raids. so i think its still useful.

we could ask for CD procing even when the models die?

[slow dome]

I think we're probably close to final here, hopefully actually final.
Any additional stuff would need to fall more into the 'necessary' category than preference, I think

If the class is hitting well for flavour, has an identity and isn't substantially struggling now, we're probably set 💪

[haughty crest]

IIRC there used to be a bug like that in the original CD beta 😆

Would likely cause more Problems than solve any, think proccing CD on a dead enemy when others are still standing.

I'm not arguing that it isn't useful, just less so than the ward recovery

[rare oar]

I agree with this.

However, I’m super happy with this iteration as well. Feels great.

[calm moat]

And for the record I am certainly not opposed to added some way to recover a little ward natural since ward is also our mana recovery.

I actually asked for this over 2 years ago and people acted like i was asking for something completely pointless.

So I am certainly not opposed to it. I just do like this this current direction too.

[blazing tendon]

I am in the camp of the 10% ward recovery was more survivability than the CD hp proc. And the main reason for this is if you one-shot, you are missing your chance at HP recovery. Think floor 16 of dungeon. don't one shot the bloody RS, manage to survive with SC, then you finsh him with your second shot no chance for CD. Then the other floors, same issue.

Not enough that I am going to kick and scream over it or anything.

The extra ward from 2H does feel nice. My basic dungeoning setup goes from 98k to 125k. So a lot easier to survive those nasties.

So other than being in the "enh, the 10% ward regen had me really excited and I'd much prefer that" camp, has my stamp of approval as well

[calm moat]

I did a little testing on beta and I am really liking how much this potentially pushed my tower builds towards 2handers. In live i kinda split between 2hander for aoe and dual wielding for some situations where i want to hit single targets harder.

I am sliding closer to 2hander being the better overall strat more of the time which i think is great for the overall design of the class.

[blazing tendon]

Now if only I can get a copy or two of Yoshi's god tier 40% crit 30% dragon...

[calm moat]

Sirith discovered the amity so its his god tier amity : )

[mellow stone]

CD heal isnt healing atm
I see the green number but no heals 🤔

[blazing tendon]

Y eah... and unsure if it was when I wasn't playing, or was justr during the phase I ignored all crit amities... but now so much regret.

Or as the tattoo's say:
No ragrets

[calm moat]

Golduck is correct. I am not seeing it actually heal either. the green number shows but no healing

[haughty crest]

looks like the ward calculation for gursa has slightly changed

[quaint mural]

its a heal number. never said it would heal you

[haughty crest]

on live it's
(hp + mana) * 1/5
whereas in the beta it's
(hp + mana) * 0,26

[calm moat]

I got lucky because i jumped in the next day after sirith found it and got two legendaries in like 5 tries. Sirith has been my hero ever since.

[blazing tendon]

Help the dude hit 250 in 6 months, donate him all kinds of raids, and what do I get? @pallid pond not even pinging me on our kindgom discord for Bone Mammoth ||The first time around anyways|| or God tier amities....
And to think I only just changed my status role away from "Still mad over Bone Mammoth"

Guess I gotta update it to "Mad over God Tier Amities"

[haughty crest]

the bonus 2h ward isn't working either

[mellow stone]

Ok im excited about these gursa changes.
I'd really like to see some viable non crit alternatives. What if crush couldnt crit? Make it deal more dmg than it does today, but no crits
Give it a few more adorn slots and/or a slight dmg boost so we can build more variety aside from crits

[quaint mural]

Odie only had time to update the text.

[rare oar]

Yea, the ursa ward formula seems to have changed, regardless of weapon equipped. Probably an oversight while implementing the new changes 😅

[quaint mural]

the secret sauce is that gursa is always holding a two handed sword in its sprite.

[calm moat]

I am also very excited for these changes.

I am not opposed to working on some non crit skills but i feel like thats a bit too much a delay for this and i don't want it held back over something thats kinda complicated because part of what holds back non crit skills is actually amity design.

Give me a Strikes of Ursa that hits hard enough to be raid viable and i would be so beyond happy with this update overall. (crit skill is my prefered path but cranking its damage not being a crit skill is fine too)

[quaint mural]

give Strikes of Omnus ⛵

[blazing tendon]

Strikes of Daddy???

Aaaaaaand I just bumped up the age rating of the game...

[calm moat]

I thought I couldn't be more excited about this until now. #StrikesOfOmnus

[mellow stone]

Oh for sure, i didnt mean it should be shipped along these gilga changes, just something for odie to consider in the future 🙌

[neon bramble]

Still feels like 1handed to me

[quaint mural]

strong arm game

[calm moat]

https://tenor.com/view/not-left-handed-either-gif-18330430680328085388

[calm moat]

I was just thinking about the ward situation.

Would it be easier to just lessen the GUrsa ward penalty? The class is losing the ward power bonus anywayso its not going to be a spiked shield focused class. While further encourage to use a 2hander is definitely welcome, i think saving some dev time to just make this easier could also be just fine.

[spark sandal]

Im not sure that's the most balanced for pvp when Gursa has the most eHP and also high ward.

[stark venture]

What’s the total current changes to Gursa? Just the hp regen and 2h bonus ward?

[gaunt nova]

Removal of CA in pvp, removal of ward power, better CD passive

[stark venture]

With the current changes, will Gursa have a viable non-crit aoe build?

[mellow stone]

I think no, not yet. Crit multipliers are still insane when compared to raw power

[stark venture]

Unfortunate. I’m still keen on my idea of having CD trigger multiple times, it would compensate for the massive crit multipliers 🤷

[fierce marsh]

No consideration is given to CD damage cap? Or at least letting Oceanus heart affect it?

[rare oar]

Can we get any confirmation on whether these are the ward numbers we’re supposed to be seeing, and that the bonus also applying on other weapons is just a bug? I’d say if that’s the case we’re probably in a good spot right now

[stoic yacht]

Strikes of Ursa vs Ultima strikes with only Atk +/++ and gunnr, not using any crit boosts

[mellow stone]

Lol damn thats sad

[blazing tendon]

While the Ymir feathers gives a slight elemental boost, doesn't look like you are exactly pumpking up the elemental damage on it either... Yikes.

I think that does make a decent case for ursa strikes crit potentially. But may end up being out of scope for this patch, but depends on the powers that be ||Which according to Odie is @sterile monolith ||

[stoic yacht]

I was also using element less to remove the faction damage modifier

[pallid pond]

Doesn't cactus have a fire weakness, therefore making it weak to Ultimastrikes, therefore giving it a ~2.4x Dmg boost iirc
The 3 A.souls in the Scythe also boost US Dmg

[stoic yacht]

Does the water immunity not effect it?

[pallid pond]

Nope, if something has a weakness all immunities and resistances are automatically ignored
(Which is why US with lotan is strong as blight = weakness, therefore ignoring any immunities)

[stoic yacht]

Changed weapon with no adornments and the anguish mod is 10% crit Chance, hit a chicken that's neutral to all elements. The amenity is 25% accessory/12% CD also. No element or crit boosts.

[blazing tendon]

so 370k vs 492k
So a 33% increase in raw damage, and that ensures there are zero elemental weaknesses taken into play.

As the first test also kind of shown unintentially, US can easilyt be getting boosts all around. So if Crit was added to SoU, it potentially would be performing around the same level, potentially slightly better on Ursa/Gilga if it has the collatoral damage increase added (which kind of makes sense to me?)

Either way, good and interesting data to have!

[stoic yacht]

Same test but this time with a weapon full of sand mortar for increased CD damage.

[stark venture]

Imo I’d rather see the CD damage boosted or a buff elsewhere rather than just making gilga a crit focused class like everything else

[stark venture]

I don’t have the pieces to test, but I’d be curious how the damage looks with max CD damage gear 👀

[stoic yacht]

I don't have CD increasing gear either but boosting the CD damage more would bring it closer to ultimastrikes. I'd rather not make GUrsa be another crit build.

[stark venture]

Ye, I’m trying to get a full set of the black dragon armor upgraded and a weapon with Themis hands put together to try it out at some point on live. It still lacks a good aoe, but with the proposed ward changes it might be survivable to make it worth 🤷

[stoic yacht]

Same setup but using rend/daggers

Going full crit

[stark venture]

Yeah, imo maybe increase the CD damage modifier a lot, but make it not trigger on crits 🤷

[stoic yacht]

And against an element weakness

[rare oar]

🚢

[mellow stone]

This dude cooking up a 100%CD chance build before armor adornments 🥶

[stark venture]

I have a feeling it’ll still be less effective than a crit build, which is my main complaint, but yolo

[mellow stone]

Maybe, but it may be a sweet dg and tower build. May be the time to push for an upward strike remake (after shipping the ongoing changes)

[stark venture]

Maybe? I’m a beoH main rn, but even with the changes and a full CD set idk if it’ll be more effective than beoH swan overall - mostly due to the lack of a good aoe on gilga

[mellow stone]

Yelmogus sword has a super sweet aoe, but we gilgas lack good dmg multipliers, thats for absolute sure

[round yew]

Love the testing thanks @stoic yacht

[stoic yacht]

Here is the best CD damage boost I could slap together totalling 187% CD damage before Frenzy/Strikes of Ursa boosts

Could have gotten 20% more CD damage if I used my Labyrs full of sand mortar.

[quaint mural]

🛳️ 🅱️ 4️⃣ 🎄

[empty meteor]

Ursa bugs should now be fixed

[gaunt nova]

Looks good, seeing the same numbers for two hands as earlier in the week, without it applying with other equipment. 🛳️

[rare oar]

Thanks Odie! That being the case, I’d say Ursa currently feels in a good spot 🛳️

[crimson bay]

@stoic yacht I have full ornate black dragon gear, it's not leveled up fully but I have it. I also have a cd set I built a while back

I can do some testing later tonight if you want.

[calm moat]

If this gets shipped I would be very happy with the state of GUrsa.

I think making Strikes of Ursa a crit skill would be so interesting for opening up another raid path for us (the reality is GUrsa has been a crit class for years) but i wouldn't mind the current state moving to live as is. This would just be icing/exciting.

[crimson bay]

The only issue I see with that is, doesn't crit become the most important stat then. We will want to adorn for crit to get to whatever % and then CD and 2h power is what's left over

[quaint mural]

🛶

[calm moat]

Thats not really new. We already do that. Its been balancing getting to crit cap and then going 2handed power or CD with the rest. I see almost every Gilga's Yel Thinblade adorned just a little differently and i think thats good design.

[crimson bay]

Right. We can have different opinions and both not be wrong which is amazing. If it was a damage issue I'd rather just see strikes lean even more heavy into the extra CD damage then crit

[calm moat]

Yeah I would also be fine with it being better but not crit. Its just a more complicated problem to solve because so little boosts non crit damage. I would be perfectly happy with that too.

I just see us as a crit class already and improving the design of non crit damage might be too complicated (not sure, just a guess)

[exotic osprey]

Honestly, I dont like the idea bc this will force you to focus on the crit, and I think it's really nice to have a skill where you just need max the attack/CD

[quaint mural]

I want crit because screen shake makes it feel good. ss feels like a heavy napkin since they removed crit

[shut citrus]

My take is not being a Crit move gets around more anguish maluses which sounded like a possible concern addressed here

But sounds like it [Strikes of Ursa] needs a buff of some kind for that?

[calm moat]

pure attack/non crit can also do wierd things because it buffs damage early so it penetrates defense better and its just so much more complicated to balance that. My personal worry was that getting that to a good place might take too long and get set aside. I would rather open us up to a new raid skill now and so much of gilga ursa design is already crit focused so its may be less work for the studio.

[quaint mural]

honestly the problem is anguish maluses themselves. it has been said elsewhere that crit damage and crit rate should be separated. It would alleviate a ton of pain for all crit based skills, not just strikes of ursa (if SoU became a crit skill)

[crimson bay]

Regardless of what happens, good or bad, I'll probably still run my ursa on 2h power. As long as odie-Claus brings me my ornate arisen top hat

[calm moat]

overall this update is wonderful us

I can certainly live with SoU getting sidelined because the rest is awesome

[mellow stone]

Ship it for the sheeple (im sheeple)

But also give us duck sprites 😡

[empty meteor]

patch cancelled, duck sprites now in progress

[mellow stone]

YUUSS

[empty meteor]

oh, did i say duck

i meant geese

[mellow stone]

Im telling my dad hes a policeman and hes stronger than your dad 😡 😡

[empty meteor]

new class, Gilgamesh Goose

[sterile monolith]

There appear to have been developments.

[empty meteor]

you're back?

[calm moat]

guys, Gilga is about to be OP. #GilgaGoosa

[empty meteor]

Goorsa?

[mellow stone]

What is this am i a joke to this community?

[sterile monolith]

Not back yet, just drove out to do a wifi check in.

[calm moat]

Goosamesh Ursa

[quaint mural]

strikes of honk

[calm moat]

Honkizontal Slash III is a pretty legit

[pine mirage]

Beaked Shield is too OP

[calm moat]

The class definitely needs polearm proficiency because it wants Ymir Brilliant Feathers

[mellow stone]

This has to stop ✋ 😠

[quaint mural]

https://tenor.com/view/goose-honk-inhale-inhales-untitled-gif-16237480

[blazing tendon]

[calm moat]

Geesus Christ that sprite is awesome.

[indigo rivet]

Literal definition of fear

[neon bramble]

🚢

[round yew]

New discord pic just dropped

[pine mirage]

Glad that's the sprite that won the rework

[crimson bay]

I missed the goose convo? My life is in shambles now 😭

[mellow stone]

I'd use the money Im saving to pay my loan shark on this damn

[rare oar]

We got a baguette ingame, I’m sure we can get that sprite in as well

[blazing tendon]

@fading steppe So glad you made a Goose Sprite to go along with the Gigla Goosersa

[mellow stone]

Wheres pixelmaster Covyn 🧙‍♂️ bring us the man himself

[lethal summit]

The HP on collat is beneficial, however when it was ward it provided more value, as having high ward is still prioritized on the warrior class with lowest ward and Regen capabilities. Also, the beserk class feature still requires a high ward% to activate, so our raid-only power up skill is more difficult to make effective use of.

The extra ward while using 2h is appreciated and I feel is in the right direction, however I still feel ward-centric is not the best direction of the class abilities.

I would suggest that instead of giving additional ward to Ursa while using a 2h, convert the ward boost of the weapon only to HP

[mellow stone]

I like this idea, making it a true 0 ward class

Its like the opposite of the other gilga classes while maintining its warrior aspect

[stoic yacht]

Would change what pets you want to use also

[lethal summit]

This is off topic for a beta for sure, so no expectations obviously

I would like to iterate that it doesn't have to apply to all ward, just to the weapon. You can still build a combination of both stats in other gear, but if the conversion is limited to a single slot then it should be easier to balance out extremes? It also creates space for wardless gear to become more of a viable option in different content.

Some approximate calcs:
22500 base HP at lv250 /0AL

My celestial hammer max ward with no adorns: 208%. Converted to HP is 46800 HP. There probably should be no ward gain to double dip this end value. Would an easily accessible total ~69300 PvE HP be acceptable / worth exploring? Ward would be just under 24k when I equip my best ward gear with no weapon/offhand in current beta

[rare oar]

Im assuming the “increased two handed bonus” in the patch notes includes the ward now being boosted by it, correct?

[wide flax]

Oh boi I can’t wait to test and get back to the feedback thread 🥳

[sterile monolith]

You mean test it in live?

[raven vale]

Soooo ? I'm alone at loosing against rs with Gherc because ss3 never touch ?

[pallid quarry]

No i think its the majority

[spark sandal]

You’re definitely not alone. The meta shifted — SS3 isn’t an auto-win anymore. It’s more rock-paper-scissors now, and some matchups mean swapping builds (like crit + RS2 vs realm). SS3 still works, just not everywhere. You could also try some pieces like this. Need dex and ward now. #1443812779118170212 message

[sterile monolith]

Yep, you have to build dex now and in some cases Ranger Spec

And calling SS3 auto-win is a bit of hyperbole. It was usually a 70-80% win rate if your opponent even tried to build a defense against it. Now, it's probably too easy to defend against, but time and data will tell the tale.

[gaunt nova]

Just build dex

[sterile monolith]

Hopefully we get some meaningful +accuracy gear in the future

[raven vale]

I'm okay with the idea of the Gherc isn't spam ss3 but Gherc have 1 spell based on ward. Everything turn around the ward on Gherc (because it's the principle of the class) and have only one spell to use it.

So if we haven't this spell anymore, like heretic, on what we can report our attention ? What is our magic chakram ? Ursa strike make less damage (100k against => 50k) and take 2 turn.

Okay i can change spec, sure, i want to change everytime i need to take a colony, swap for BoF for pve, and change back again for the next colony ?

"You need more stuff"=> i have only one pumpkinless stuff for the moment (and it's legendary...) but the result is : if you haven't specific stuff you can't play in a Big content of the game ?

I know it's new, we need data, adjustement and probably we find an another build for OT. But now i feel the Gherc lost something and seem unbalanced.

[round yew]

Lots of dex and accuracy around suggest giving it a try. Dont have to change specs. Yes, most of it is event locked, but one of those events is going on right now.

[calm moat]

Well the inverse was that Realmshifters were always feeling hard countered by SS3. The whole class identity of high dex was meaningless in pvp when everyone just uses SS3.

Now solving one problem by creating another isn't perfect but i will be advocating for more dex and accuracy gear for Gilga including on existing gear. Its definitely something everyone wants to get right

[rare oar]

Honestly, things feel pretty fair right now. If I decide to ignore dex while attacking my realm kingdom mates I miss a lot. If I invest into it, matches suddenly become winnable again. I appreciate the variety

[sterile monolith]

My biggest gripe right now is that dex gear options for warriors are all very all or nothing

There's not alot of dex gear that doesn't gut either your defense or your ward. Which makes it very predictable to defend agains. Either they are BoF running high dex gear, so you just stack more dex than they could possibly ever stack, since Gilga starts in such a hole. Or they are running Ranger which means you just stack defense.

[raven vale]

Again, i'm ok with that but not in the state of the situation. The best solution is more diversity.

Friend of mine use thing to up dex and he have no issue. But it's a veteran gilga with a lot of event stuff.

[calm moat]

This is my gilga ursa pvp build and its working great.

Obviously not perfect for base Gilga but i think its a strong starting point if you already have celestial classes. Black Dragon gear is non event with great dex and the 2handed celestial bow (6 prom hands) is also non event.

I promise you i vent any and all frustrations to Odie and Dangy and I am not reserved about my feelings. I am a Gilga main and I will very actively advocate for more accuracy and dex on gear.

I dont want to promise anything but my impression is the studio wants to enhance these options and just needs to figure out which gear and how much. I believe we will get there.

[pallid quarry]

Imma steal it lol
Time to pick ursa for pvp cuz with herc im missing every ss3 hit, or i'll just wait for new dex gear

[calm moat]

I am not having issues vs realms with this build. Its high enough dex that misses are still rare.

[dapper flame]

As long as there’s always an even exchange, probably no one will be complaining. That was the old problem. No downsides. Now it does feel a lot more fair.

[pallid quarry]

Idk, i'd like to hit my opponent at least once for me to call the fight "fair" but it is what it is

[round yew]

Question for Gursa -

Is everyone happy with HP regen on CD proc or is Ward regen preferred?

[exotic osprey]

I haven't tried enough ward regen but I like a lot new HP regen with stone garm

[mellow stone]

I like it, but clearing a floor in dgs wont heal me

[mellow stone]

On the other hand, having ward regen makes frenzy easier to activate

Edit: sry i tagged the wrong person

[pallid quarry]

Cd heal is nice but i agree with golduck, ward regen makes frenzy easier to use, i can always use something else to heal

[exotic osprey]

No pb, I'm agree with you

[raven vale]

Heal proc in horde dungeon is cool, i go with stoneguard so no ward issue but i don't use frenzy at all in Gursa

[solid nest]

Yea luckily gursa has pretty high dex so using dex gear works well on that one 👌

[solid nest]

Really? Because I tested hundreds of hits and even if i BoF with dex gear as herc or base... I miss 40% of attacks even if they arent focusing dex gear. Have to use ranger to hit decently well. Quality doesnt matter for dex either since it doesnt scale by quality.

Boost to survivability on herc from more ward to start is really nice though. 👌

damage still in the hole too vs BoF 0 defense builds even with the extra 18% bastille first turn.

Only one that gets accurate is gursa since it has pretty good base dex on class stats and can use good gear. 👍

[calm moat]

Havng access to the celestial bow is huge because it has massive dex too.

[solid nest]

Yes! The bow is nice. If anyone prefers the scythe gursa does have polearm mastery now for the multiplicative 5% more total attack 😄 but Bow has that dex if accuracy is your issue 🙂

There is a give and take now on which you use that is a little more than just the base crit diff on the items. Makes the choice a little more involved