New War Matchmaking

[coarse path]

Is a weekly log in active? I don't really consider people who log in once or twice a day to do wars and gauntlets and nothing else active. At that point you're clearly not interested in the game anymore

[pliant warren]

Well, that's why I specified. Lots of people have families and lives and can maybe only play on weekends. But they're still in the game.
Those of us in Discord obviously consider active as being on every day, but that's not a fair metric.

[rough topaz]

How is that not a fair metric? Not being able to play multiple hours everyday for whatever reason is okay but you shouldn't be considered active anyway, especially in such a grindy game with so many time limits

[coarse path]

Yeah that's true we're all busy. I think if the game interests you then you'll find time though. People with kids and full time jobs or people going to school and working are some of the most active I've met 🤷‍♂️

[spark mica]

Where is the data that shows “the majority of players don't see it as motivation. they see it as a stopping point” ? What survey is responded to by a majority of players in the first place? The entire premise is disputable.

[rose heart]

I won't call him out, but I know someone specifically who gets frustrated when he's repeatedly matched with people 100 ALs higher than him lol

[modern kayak]

If anything, the data has shown people want AL in wars. Didn’t we have a survey/poll that had two thirds of players in favor of keeping them?

[spark mica]

50 poll responders is not a majority of players, and putting matchups back the way they were is not even a choice here.

[frail light]

Do you mean the poll quite a while ago regarding AL overall? With options like: 0.5% stats for Al 50 to 100, and 0.25% beyond 100? That one was a quite different situation.

[solid glen]

If it wasnt me you were calling out ill step forward yeah its awful

And no to someone elses point it doesnt make me want to dedicate 1000 hrs to just be on level footing stat wise prior to the fight

Im sure some people are motivated to catch up 100 ALs. The reality is there are only a handful of players above each AL threshold. My guess says maybe 1000 players above 50 AL. Most of them are in the discord and active members of the community. Theres a large player base who we dont hear from that burn out / quit grinding early, who knows the reason why. But I wouldn't be surprised if its because their local area rival is 175 AL and they dont get to enjoy area control because of it (which imo is a huge draw / major unique feature of orna )

[burnt mural]

Really bad timing 😂

[burnt mural]

Neither is any other poll conducted here. Which is the point some of us have been trying to make. Even here, where there are mostly super active players, people are kinda sick of ALs. That’s just reality.

[modern kayak]

That’s far from reality lol. Are we really comparing a poll with 50 participants to one with hundreds of them? Let’s be real here. The day you take ALs away is the day the game loses a huge chunk of its players. The playerbase has stated over and over again that it wants endless progression as a motivation factor to keep playing. Take that away and you kill the game

[burnt mural]

Odie has said that he gathers information from different sources. I wouldn’t sit here and call him a liar. What he says usually somewhat reflects what I hear outside people talk about. I’m against ALs, but I’m not extremely passionate about it. I do understand how it would affect others though. And I don’t care about using my ALs against other people. I’d rather have them to ease my “farming” experience in the game. You know? Just make the grind easier

[burnt mural]

I’m almost certain that “loses a huge chunk of its players” is an impossibility. Since the players that have put that grind are so few. I talked to tubbug a couple days ago. He was talking to me about the amount of time he put in to get AL 200. Its absolutely insane and ridiculous and doesn’t even make sense to me. There is no way in my life on earth I will ever dedicate that amount of time to any game. Ever. People that say play casually and you’ll get there are also full of S. Especially since you guys know the effort that it needs

[solid glen]

25% ish of people voted to keep ALs as is. Yeah not exactly a good portion at least within this discussion. But to your point MW a large player base isnt being asked.

@modern kayak theres maybe 1000 of us above 50 ALs. Im not saying I want anyone to leave the game based on any decision, but I wonder what % of the playerbase burnt out and quit because of ALs or felt they didnt want to go through that. The same can be said both ways.

[burnt mural]

And I also do respect that investment massively. Don’t get it wrong. But please, it’s very few players. No one really thinks Orna and ALs are more important than friends or family….

[spark mica]

Not everyone has friends and family

[burnt mural]

And 1,000 could very well also be too high of a number.

[burnt mural]

That’s a very different topic. Not false at all. But still it goes more into mental health. Let’s not open that Pandora’s box. I will acknowledge it but I really don’t wanna get into that one. Most people do have friends and family.

[burnt mural]

I will 100% concede something here though. And this point I think most of the players in the whole game WOULD actually agree. We do need something to keep going. There’s just a moment when you get all the gear you need and don’t really need anything else. On this part, I think we all feel the same.

However, ALs on PvP is just a bit different.

[modern kayak]

I have friends and family, does that stop me from being invested in my hobbies? The “high AL players are no lifers” is quite honestly insulting and makes no sense in a world where AL grinding has been so accelerated by content changes

[burnt mural]

I didn’t say AL players have no life.

I said the time commitment is massive.

[modern kayak]

If you’re not using them on PvP what are you using them on? PvE gets mindlessly easy quick, and anguish means scaling your ALs won’t have significant benefits because of shackles

[burnt mural]

What would you estimate is your time commitment? Do you think it’s a fair metric to impose on others?

[modern kayak]

Like in every competitive game, I don’t expect everyone to commit the same time. But I expect those who commit more to win more often

[spark mica]

Most things in life you get out what you put in, its not groundbreaking

[burnt mural]

Can you estimate your time commitment? In an honest way. Just for people to have an idea. I already do based on another player. Not my own experience

According to (was it ensseric?) you guys base everything on efficiency. I’m pretty sure that the “time” is pretty much at the top of your priorities

[modern kayak]

My player record puts me at 300 days playtime. Sure a lot of hours there are spent with me drooling on the couch after falling asleep farming dungeons, but it’s a fair estimate

Im far from being the most time efficient player though. Guys like Geppu kick my ass there

[burnt mural]

That’s true. And something to keep in mind. Of the absolute top tier, you’d be on the lower end. (Is that fair?)

Again, uncharted territory for me, so please excuse if I say something wrong.

He estimated his time investment the 15,000 hours. Not sure how he got that number, but I know him very well. And yes, he has that obsession with efficiency and his results show.

Those are HIGH ass numbers. Both of y’all. I just don’t like the idea of using that to beat up on other players. Having the best possible gear and experience and amities would probably be enough to win most of the time against more regular players.

(I think my time investment is similar to yours, just horribly inneficient)

[modern kayak]

Yea, I think that’s definitely fair.

The thing with gear solving most matchups is that that doesn’t work as well for defense. Anyone can win attack in most matchups, even at a severe deficit. But the way PvP is structured, defense is highly dependent on getting as much power as you can, besides needing good gear and a strategy. Winning defenses has become a point of pride for me, and the number one thing I play for atm.

And yea, I’ll admit that this particular subject hits close to me. And that’s because I know full well that, the day ALs get removed from wars, is the day I uninstall the game, because I won’t be able to keep getting better at wars bar farming specific events for a new piece of gear

I’ve stated this many times, but it’s such a shame that BoF has been left to rot. There’s a great avenue right there for players that don’t enjoy AL, that could be extensively expanded with seasonal rules, rewards, etc

[spark mica]

There is no longer any pvp context where your ascension levels are always relevant.

[burnt mural]

I’ve been trying to get people to get off the ALs and jump into a more strategic way to play PvP. Status effects, 27 classes and endless gear options with trade offs. That’s not a bad start. I do honestly think Orna has the tools. And ALs should be the method in which you gain this gear and set “records”. That’s kind of the game I want to see.

Now check this out. Basically the same investment that most high AL guys have put in to get their ALs, I’ve put in to be good at PvP. That’s why my total gameplay is so “inneficient”. It is, if we talk about ALs. But PvP wise? I’m a tough match up regardless of ALs. Do players that play in this manner deserve to have that gap grow even more? Just a thought

[burnt mural]

I agree that it also has huuuuge upside potential.

Actually, if BoF can be taken to its absolute best, I’d almost say that it would validate the time players like me have put in.

[burnt mural]

That’s false. Wars and the peace blessing is a joke. And conqueror’s guild is massively AL dependent.

[modern kayak]

That’s honestly the ideal solution to this whole conundrum imo. If we make BoF actually interesting and rewarding, everyone has an avenue to enjoy PvP the way they prefer

[spark mica]

Cg has material equalization

[modern kayak]

I know NF has a small team, which is why I’ve previously suggested forming a “committee” of PvP experienced players that could suggest seasonal rules that NF could adapt and adopt. Almost like a BoF ORN

[burnt mural]

It only works on offense for 30 minutes. It’s just as real as the blessing.

[modern kayak]

The blessing is very frequently used against us, meaning we can’t cleanse most of them. I know we’re #1 so that’s expected, but that’s also kind of the point of the hex

[spark mica]

It still stands that there is no pvp context where your ascensions are always relevant

[burnt mural]

Pfft. I’d apply for that in a heartbeat. With rewards that scale to the other guilds. So we can reap some benefits on PvE. I’m still hopeful

[burnt mural]

Ok. I’ll concede. It’s not “always” relevant. It can be mitigated at times.

I’d still prefer another way. Again, sadly that’s just an opinion. And to get enough support to make it a big priority is complicated.

I don’t think it wouldn’t be fun, honestly. There’s a lot of depth to strategizing when you’re going up against someone of an equal mindset. The old S2 against me battles in Denver were excruciating. Counter after counter to absolutely every build.

And no ss3 shenanigans either

[spark mica]

When I started playing, ascensions were always relevant in territory and wars. Now theres nothing. It’s disheartening and doesn’t do much to motivate further ascension.

They didn’t have any qualms effectively removing the investment of the old territory system participants. Not surprised when ascension investment also becomes obsolete.

[burnt mural]

Lol. Idk what to say to that. To me, one shotting every time is boring. But it’s also just as boring to be in an impossible situation. It’s not like it used to be. It’s not like back in the day when we would have to grind and eventually we’d get there.

Gaps are too big. And then another thing that confuses me is that rewards aren’t even that good. Better than before, but still. High AL guys benefit more from grinding than playing conq

Idk. Scratch that. I spoke too much. Everyone has their pov. I don’t have to understand them all.

[burnt mural]

You just miss me 😂

[spark mica]

Who are you?

[burnt mural]

Hopefully on this topic we can come to a beneficial agreement for everyone. Cause, at least for me, I feel for everyone in this topic specifically. And PvP is a pretty important part of Orna. There are players that tend to either bully or just be pretty bad people and it’s one of the few ways that we as players interact with one another. Having some players feel hopeless or bullied is something I think shouldn’t be happening. And also the time investment for the players that are NOT the bullies cannot be ignored. Whether it’s by ALs or “skill” or gear.

I think it’s a problem that’s been lurking under the surface for a while.

[coarse path]

Saying the gap is too big just isn't true when als are not that hard to grind. It's more an issue of do you enjoy doing the types of content that are efficient for ascension. If you don't like towers or grinding memory hunts then it's gonna be rough

[spark mica]

Wait so having your investment in the game work to your benefit is now bullying?

[burnt mural]

We heavily disagree. And I said that earlier. The fact that you got there doesn’t mean everyone else should. And that shouldn’t be the metric by which we are measured. Personal example, I work about 14-18 hours a day. You think I’m gonna get home and do memory hunts?! And real life has priority for me. Should I be punished?

It’s a fair assumption that most of the player base do NOT want to put in the time that you have to be decent. Decent is NOT being curbed stomped and told “git gud”.

[burnt mural]

Bullying is the intention. In my case, again, I do have a reason for saying everything I do. You guys are welcome to agree or disagree. I knew I had an advantage as truck driver and areas back in the day. I made a promise to someone who lived in El Paso, a player, that I would let all the areas go once I got the 250k areas title. I did. I felt it was bullying. I had an advantage that no one in the US could match at that time. I felt like I was exploring them. I never hit him, no matter what he did.

That’s just me. To use an out of the game related advantage is “bullying” to me. But real bullying is to not give a chance. Just an opinion. Probably silly, but it’s still mine

[charred furnace]

This conversation is totally about matchmaking, right

[burnt mural]

PvP. But we’re 100% going off topic. Let’s go back to matchmaking lol

[spark mica]

Seems like there are far more low and unascended players than highly ascended; with the highest ascended players representing the smallest percentage. So on the old matchup you would be more likely to match with someone lower than you no matter what. Not sure how it was really ever bad.

[coarse path]

Bullying 😂

Nah it's more like an arms race, you know your opponents are getting stronger as time goes on so you need to as well. New players are just caught in the middle. Also you need every advantage you can get if you're a territory focused player wanting to hold large amounts of it. Settlement tiers exist for new players who want to get in on the territory game

[spark mica]

Tiers are a joke and should reserved for the players of that tier.

Othersoul are fun and awesome but wrong application

[coarse path]

I work full time and go to school. If I invest time in the game I expect to get some progression out of it and I don't see anything wrong with having an advantage over players who invested less time

[burnt mural]

We all have our opinions. Mine are my own. They are neither false nor uninformed. Especially with my play style. It works both ways. I keep my areas and I don’t need ALs. But I’m arguing for the ones that don’t have that luxury.

Well I do. Especially since when I started, there was none of this. It was levels and that’s it. Skills and classes. Not a 200% stat disadvantage.

Again. You’re not wrong. But neither am I

Let’s go back to matchmaking.

[burnt mural]

Another thing I have a lot of hope for. Btw. Love the concept

[long spear]

Matchmaking has been pretty good the last week or so but a lot of kingdoms being matched have a lot of inactivity. Am I the only one seeing this?

And seemingly the problem with this is that a kingdom may have full participation while the other kingdom has super low participation resulting in a full match time, which isn’t a huge deal, but the korns are light because the other kingdom had such awful participation.

Honestly though rewards for wars have always been anecdotal and even after tracking wars for basically years I’m unsure how korns are rewarded.

[frail light]

While I personally believe that "no AL in kwars" would best for the game (which also seems to be the preferred choice for our kingdom), there seem to be several high AL players who feel they would be getting punished.

I think a solution like OPTIONAL "shackled" (reducing the difference) or no AL would be best, maybe with slightly more korns (some kind of bonus). This way nobody is forced into pvp w/o AL. Matchmaking is much easier. Low AL players have a small chance. There are no obvious exploits.

What do I mean with exploit? Currently, AL49 is not matched with 50+ but with AL 25. I am AL48 and just posted in my kingdom that I will not push it further (or only when I am not blocked with any mats for quite some levels). Others plan to do the same. While I am 90% winning against AL100, I am also usually loosing against them. That's different in bucket 25-49.

[pliant warren]

Actually, I asked if I could get an idea of about how many active players play Orna , and it got quickly derailed into the definition of "active".
I called "active" logging in at least once per week. Is that something that's ever been shared with us?
At this point, I'm wondering if it is closer to 500, 5,000, or 50,000? I really have no idea.

[charred furnace]

While we don’t publish these numbers, I can say that our WAU (weekly active users) can peak around 100,000 depending on the events/time of year (summer is when we see the most playtime)

[sacred shuttle]

Congrats! That must be a milestone for Orna. What % of those players are geese?

[torpid inlet]

I noticed the player number changes. Summer I had around 200 allies on at one point. Today at one point I had 50.

Sigh, when you match for war and after an hour nobody from the opposing side has attacked... ya know it's going to be another 24 hours of wasted time...

[torpid inlet]

Yeah, I see a lot of casuals statements about removing AL from wars and that will absolutely make many of the long time committed players quit. Right now even, we only have Turf and wars as a reason to grind ALs. If we don't have a reason to grind ALs, than we may as well just not play and occasionally log in to hit an event and then quit again.

If the competition isn't in this game, than many aren't going to want it. BoF is unfortunately the only live pvp this game offers. I hate the rules of that. I think it should be an option, but why isn't full throttle fighting an option?

@glacial pelican I seen you, lol. He knows I get my butt kicked a lot too, but the fighting is what is fun for many of us. Mammon just isn't going to dm me unfortunately and Madea won't talk trash or send me feet pics.

I have so much fun lore from the IRL meeting and chatting players, meeting people, sharing life. Killing mobs is boring and pvp drives conversations.

[hallow sierra]

Yeah this is why im afraid of those kinda changes; its a bad change that removes a core experience of orna, and instead of reverting it we replace it with an even worse change.

This would kill a few high players motivation. Simply because first, everything was fine, they worked hard for their position. Then, suddenly, oopsie woopsie they dont get matches anymore cause of a new addition that removes one of the big reasons they grinded, and then, because they are frustrated, it gets stripped from them completely.

Thats a dark idea. I dont like this at all. That's the epidemy of a bad decision right there.

[glacial pelican]

We’re still not seeing our higher-AL players in Alpine get many matches. Over the last two wars, excluding our king, we’ve only had roughly 30 total ALs per war across 8 or 9 players, with most participation coming from alts or players who only log in once per day.

As a kingdom, we have 621 total ALs across 10 players, but there haven’t been many opportunities to meaningfully use them in wars. I’m still unsure about how the new system is playing out overall, and the current matching structure has honestly made me less excited to play the game as it stands.

I know that most people chatting here are higher-AL players, and it makes sense that they want to be able to use the advantage they’ve worked hard to grind for. I’m also genuinely happy to have my ALs for PvE content, where they feel rewarding and impactful. That said, I do wonder whether the game might see stronger long-term growth if wars felt more fair and accessible for lower-AL players—perhaps by allowing ALs to be turned off and creating a more level playing field. If the AL race continues unchecked, it seems likely that it could discourage newer or lower-AL players from engaging, which may ultimately hamper the overall growth of the game. At the end of the day, it’s worth asking what other PvP game allows one side to effectively start with something like a 200% stat advantage, and how fun that experience really is for the player on the other side.

[hallow sierra]

If you are a casual and you're going to join with the big boys then dont expect a casual experience.

This was not a casual game from day 1 with how slow and grindy everything was. I dont think appealing to the masses is healthy for the heart of the game.

[hallow sierra]

There is a hex that neutralizes ascension levels; you can already cheat.

Also, Counter is an option, cheaping out with CC, etc. There is ways.

To add to that; when i was facing against those players they were the motivation to become strong enough to beat them. The entire reason i even became a top 300 player was cause some random dude 5 years ago owned almost all of the surrounding 20km of my home and i was getting territorial and grinded like a madman until i found dragon's vengance.

It really was an unique experience. Nothing another game could provide. Those quirky, weird decisions are what make Orna Orna for me; please lets not homogenize it and take away its charm for the masses. That is always a decision for money, never for passion.

[glacial pelican]

That hex always gets Blessing of Peace.

AI doesn’t turn up many good examples of games where you can start PvP with a 200% stat advantage over your opponent.

At the end of the day, it’s the studio’s choice. Are they satisfied with how things are now, or would the game grow more if it were easier for newer or lower-AL players to get involved? A toggle to turn ALs on or off could be a big improvement for the kingdom rework—kingdoms that enjoy using their ALs could keep them enabled, while kingdoms that just want to play the game and have fair wars could still get consistent matches.

[hallow sierra]

I think the decision of adding ALs to the game, and refineries, were a very important moment in orna which shaped the way it will perform and evolve. One of those things remains untouched, one of them got ignored for SO long. For what its worth, we already have enough cheapshots to devaluate an opponents progression in forms of blessing, munchies, etc... And we dont need another one. We had to go this length to archieve this power, do not cheap us Out, dont expect victory until you earned it too. Its fairness. Cheaping out, basically cheating away one's power via a cheap mechanic, is not a great and healthy decision to encourage.

[hallow sierra]

In WoW the stat Bonus can be about 200%, and very most pvp has no normalization; i can say that cause i play it actively. WoW PvP is a gear based dumpster fire, Orna makes it fun somehow.

And yes you can chose to not engage. Set your kingdom to peaceful; go fight with othersouls instead of challenging T10/11 spot.

Nothing in the game, except the summoner quest, forces you to do PvP. You can even grind BoF spec by fighting non player othersouls in settlements.

[glacial pelican]

I’m not trying to devalue anyone’s progression—ALs feel great in PvE and Conqueror, and that shouldn’t change. The concern is specifically about war matchmaking. When wars regularly create 1v1s where the outcome is decided before the fight starts, that’s less about “earning it” and more about whether the system is creating meaningful gameplay for both sides.

Saying “just don’t engage” sidesteps the issue. Wars are a core kingdom feature, and it’s reasonable to want them to be accessible without requiring everyone to grind to the very top first. An AL toggle wouldn’t cheapen anyone’s grind; it would simply give kingdoms a choice in how they want to play wars.

[hallow sierra]

I would love not to engage in turnbased oneshotting as much as i can, but i have to because of the way korns are handeled. I wish for it to be done as fast as possible; its not fun, its a necessity. If i want PvP that feels like PvP i would play finesse, but the house rules just make it bad, so my only option is doing literally anything else.

I don't engage; its about identity of the game for me.

An AL toggle can work. Im not against it. But under the condition the matchmaking changes get completely reverted to give either the salty spitoon or weenie hut junior experience.

Thats choice then, not force.

[hoary swan]

War is the main reason I level AL, I've pretty much capped Anguish and don't get to do as much conquerors as I used to with 2 young kids. A lot of the reason people level up in our kingdom is to be an asset to the kingdom. We share efficient ways to up AL in our kingdom, and also share strats for those who find themselves in underdog matchups. I really dont know how much I'd play the game if the only content left was waiting for war fights or events with new gear. Level 250 or even 50 AL is not the barrier it used to be, progression is way faster nowadays. There are people in my kingdom with 80AL who are just now hitting the 1 year mark. I really think reducing or lowering the AL in kingdom wars and/or related content will 'cap' the games content for a lot of players in a matter of months, and be much more of a gameplay deterrent than fighting a hard battle every so often.

[torpid inlet]

Okay, I have a gripe about the new matchup so far and still testing. The same handful of players are getting the lineup for wars on repeat. Meaning, there is no random match at all anymore and if we face the same kingdoms on repeat than the fights are going to be super dull while half of the kingdom keeps getting sidelined. We are getting matched faster, thankfully. If we magically match the right kingdoms, then the higher ALs get to participate. But if wars continue what it looks like right now, this is still not a win for us.

[charred furnace]

I can reintroduce the “shuffle” that was there before, to a lesser degree. It was one of the things that somewhat prevented the high AL matches. But at a lesser degree, it should add some variance to matchups without causing issues

[charred furnace]

Just to make sure it’s clear, there is no proposition from the studio to remove AL from wars. The only real goal with the new matchmaking is to remove the “no chance” fights (no AL vs 100 AL). I still want anyone on the ascension grind to have a matchup, and am cool with the massive AL disparities once players are on the ascension grind

[torpid inlet]

Thank you, Odie. I know we haven't had much testing time. So, just reporting what I'm seeing so far.

[hoary swan]

Appreciate hearing that, I have to say my part any time one of these tangential topics spins into that particular conversation :). For the matchmaking piece, I am seeing more matchups than earlier in the week, and seem to be getting matched with other higher kingdoms more, which is great, but still not the same volume or war size I used to see prior to these general changes.

[charred furnace]

Yeah, there will be a difference. We just need to get to the place that the difference is acceptable from all sides

Curb stomping the lowbies means less players are encouraged to grow and become your adversaries later - there are downstream effects to be cognizant of

[torpid inlet]

Fair. I suppose we definitely don't all have the same motivations.

[inland vector]

having some challenge and motivation to improve is good too

I remember when I first played orna years and years back I was excited to take territories from the higher level players around me

kind of that I can finally beat them feeling

[torpid inlet]

Same. Fortunately, I still have some really good fighters around about an hour out and can coordinate with people even accross state lines to get hit and tell them where to take my lands etc. And, for the locals, I am having a good time coaching them up and trading to get high contest and then I'm not taking the close by high contest so they can rack in better rewards. I feel a little like I get to help raise my competition, so it's nice. Especially since my friend quite the game and that really cut the pvp activity down for me.

[inland vector]

I loved it when I saw new players around and spotted their towns

but anyway

[torpid inlet]

I made all my OS good at killing but also easy to be killed, so I get to reach out whenever I get pings.

[queen mist]

Since the patch from yesterday, 5 wars not chosen not even one time, so nothings changed here.

[fervent tree]

What if wars had events that change up every week or for the first week of every month etc. Events could change 1 aspect of wars for that event. There have been many ideas suggested in this thread which could be used as a war aspect change, to name a few i remember seeing:
-No AL wars event (more fair for low AL)
-12hour war event
-No AL matching brackets event (old system) (High AL favored)

Mix things up and keep it interesting.

[torpid inlet]

Hey buddy! That actually sounds like a fun way to do it. And, even with the few things you mentioned, there are a ton of other options too!

One side of me says that hard charge and growth is the way forward for practical k.orn and rank earnings, but the other part of me does enjoy shared chaos. I just want everyone to have plenty of fair chance to blow each other up.

[rough topaz]

100k unique players or 100k characters?

[frail light]

I don't think that abusing alts is a thing for 90% of the Player base (but rather an issue for highly ranked players). So the magnitude shouldn't be different.

[rough topaz]

Pretty much everyone in my Kingdom's network has 10+ alts so I strongly disagree

[late knot]

As one who does a lot of hexing for It Burns:

1. We get equalized a lot, yet almost never cleanse it, poison back at best. Most kingdoms just don't know how to use the advantage Hex of Eq provides. Blessing of Peace we'd better save for some top kingdom's Hex of Dragon.
2. If you are well-coordinated, the opposing kingdom has no chance to cleanse before you do your attacks. And if not, then it's probably no one else's fault

Adding constantly rotating home rules to the wars sounds actually fun

[frail light]

Which kingdom is it? Probably top? I don't have any alts and I don't intend to (isn't that the purpose of kingdoms to find groups/use wv/party play?), but yes , we also have a few (maybe 3?) players with alts, but for lower ranked kingdoms I can't believe it's a big issue.

[hallow sierra]

But the occasional curbstomp still should be a possibility, even if its rate. Its fun. I just matched into a 238 Beo with my 117 deity on base instead of ursa, so i was at a huge disadvantage, and still beat him up terribly cause his loadout was... lets say uneducated.

Stuff like this is when my synapses go and fire, even if its still all a diceroll in a trenchcoat, especially against a beo

[spark mica]

The only bad thing about the original kingdom matchup system was that it would match a t10 to a t11.

It’s probably not a “majority of players” that feel the old system was bad. Just a vocal minority being given preference.

Why not share the numbers and data?

How much “growth” does the Orna player base really need? Is major growth a company goal?

[hallow sierra]

Open communication is always appreciated; it gives less room for shadowplays and shows a genuent trust in the people who consume the product. Fully agree with ya.

Especially the part about the majority. I cannot see a poll, or data, or anything outside of the scope of this small thread in which only a few select players discuss, and a vast majority of the orna playerbase does'nt even know it exists.

[spark mica]

The changes are too nonsensical to be logically driven.
Its giving; dev’s girlfriend who doesn’t game started playing and cried it’s too hard.

[rough topaz]

I think playerbase growth should be a major goal but as I've said many times already, new players need completely different issues to be fixed (that would benefit them way more) and Kingdom Wars aren't a priority to any new player

[spark mica]

Sometimes it is better if small businesses stay small. The reason a lot of them fail is because they get too big to keep up.

[hallow sierra]

And then focus on minor issues while major ones are present. But i think anybody is guilty of that from time to time.

Since the kingdom rework is the current theme, i do see the point tho.

[rough topaz]

You are definitely right this game shouldn't be too big and perhaps I used the wrong words, I think player retention should be a major goal

[hallow sierra]

I agree. The early game experience is great until you start getting the hang, then progression slows down significantly.
I remember joining in april 2020 and i really really had fun until i was about lv 100, which i reached in about 24 hours. Then the gameplay loop became extremely tedious and it was basically "how do i go to 225 which still squeezing fun out of the journey, so i can start having fun for real".

Back then, we didnt have all the content we had today. But deep dungeons would probably not made any difference to me (neither do the themed dungeons cause for EXP the only good one was goblin before you can enter Battlegrounds and they got nuked for the semi idle clicker). We neither had to worry about this extreme inbalance in lowtier. Yes, we had crimson gazer, but JUST crimzon gazer. Not summoner and a whole lot of other shenanigans.

For me, the grind becomes stagnant at some point and then you either ask for getting carried, push through the pain yourself or do it veeeeeryyyyy sloooowwwllllyyyy. And then you hit T8 where summoner is a god and everything else in comparison is almost worthless and you get turned down.

Adding to that, we now have the starterpacks and their popups which are the only of its kind and gove a vastly false impression of this beeing any other mobile game monetization wise, which is still a decision i dont understand. The Profit cant be this great to give a false impression on monetization, to then after beeing decently reasonable.

There is a lot of other things on my laundry list of "why i would most likely not play orna as a new player in 2025 if i am a casual", but getting curvestomped in Kingdom Wars was not on the list. I just see it as an addition in the sense of "were reworking kingdoms anyway, they are supposed to be a big part of this game, they aged poorly, lets rework them, and while were at it, lets fix this minor inconvenience"

Last thing to add is, back then, i had much less FOMO. T10 had no towers, no ascensions etc, it was just chill existing and farming for fun. So i had no FOMO behind me.

This is much different today, where the constant power grind is much more dominant and there are way more systems where it matters.

Another big part that kept me was the kingdom wars, where i was a puny T5 king getting matched against gods.

I had fun with it. I got destroyed, or cheesed them. It was either. This experience will always be direly missed, as it showed me what i could become, and it made me extremely excited for the future in this game. Hands down the biggest reason i kept to the game and probably spent more money then i ever should.

[spark mica]

As a casual, early game is rough. You’re right, kingdoms in general are not really on the radar for early game casuals. Until certain events require an kingdom raid you might not even notice if your kingdom is active or not.

[hallow sierra]

We don't need a perfectly balanced game, we dont need to make things perfectly fair. While i hate yelmogus deeply for it beeing just an annoying bullet sponge guarding good loot, i also love the olympia events where i can get hundreds of monster aspects reasonably quickly.

What makes Orna Orna is that its a conglomerate of BS held together by duct tape and still somehow feels like a perfect game, and that is a feeling i would love to keep. Every event and content has their own cheese and its about finding it, every class has their OH MY GOD HOW and its so fun seeing it done, like summoner endless or beowulf stasis. In the last few years, the voices for balance became bigger and bigger and the fun in Orna slowly became lesser and lesser, and then theres Odie wanting to make a game he enjoys and has fun with, and has to somewhat adapt to those two camps. And SOMEHOW manages to do that way more well then i would give any human credit for.

Im still thinking fun > Balance. This is not a comp game, you dont play for money. Play for fun. Use cheese, use dum fuq, have fun. What makes this game what it is is the cheese, chaotic scaling and cursed options we learned about along the years. Beeing matched into a guaranteed win in kingdoms, or crying at a million ward. I dont want it to become a balance soup. I dont want another of those games we have plenty of. I want chaos, jank, and all of Odie's weird ideas who gave me a reason to come back every day after all those years for more tears and sweat.

[rough topaz]

Very well said Rhayvhenn, I'm very happy a veteran player like yourself can see some of the most impactful issues new players encounter

[hallow sierra]

I still have fond memorys of sitting in a car for hours and bringing my Swash Atlas Vanguard from 174 to 208 (still have screenshots of it), just onetappijg bosses, buying a rogue class on the way for easier kills, and sat there tap tap tap tap. It was monotone, it was tedious. But god, was it fun for exactly those reasons. No frustration, just simple, lovable gameplay, thinking of all the cinema in my head experienced through those fights. ❤️

[charred furnace]

players

[hallow sierra]

100k is a lot. That is amazing. :o Thank you for sharing that.

[rough topaz]

That's actually a lot and very surprising. I think my country has a very low playerbase but I guess it's much higher elsewhere, even tho I still think the players I would define as "active" are pretty low

Would be cool to see some country-related stats

[hallow sierra]

spotify rewind, but amazing

[modern kayak]

That’s so cool to hear, and very much deserved, especially after the great year we just had content wise

[exotic prism]

Just gonna put this here: people who "liked fighting against the odds, took 100 AL disparities as a challenge, it drove them to grow stronger" are a good example of the survivors, not necessarily the majority.

If Odie has data that players facing this AL disparity tend to leave the game more frequently, it's obviously not us who will see or feel that

[spark mica]

“Survivors”? To describe people who love the game so much they have played it often, for years?

[exotic prism]

It's a survivorship bias reference

[hallow sierra]

If i would now be presented an orna who would prevent me from matching into those ppl, i would be less excited. The entire game is a diceroll, always was, thats the Spirit; there is no surviving of something i adored. I survive yelm towers, cause i want that ornate - thats survival.

[exotic prism]

I understand your point of view, I'm simply pointing out that it may not be the majority point of view and thus may not be healthy for the game 👍 I don't have that data of course

[spark mica]

The numbers show Orna is not suffering on the brink of losing it’s playerbase. For a niche and indie game, it has a large following. People have been enjoying the game for years. No game is going to suit every audience. Changing the game to suit the people who don’t like it is an interesting decision.

[hallow sierra]

Yeah that was my thought Process too^^"

[charred furnace]

what change is being proposed that caters to folk who don't like the game? not sure i can understand that one

[potent pier]

Insofferenza is in the Jotunheim network

A lot of alts for wvs or for alt kingdoms

[spark mica]

The people who quit because its too hard are the people who don’t like the game

Making wars easier so they don’t quit is catering to them.

[modern kayak]

NF: proposes nothing related to removing ALs from wars
All of us in this thread: let’s discuss this ad eternum

[fathom trail]

I’m just spit balling here… and I’m sure people will let me know if this is even feasible or not (if this idea has already been mentioned, please ignore).

Would it be possible to create a tiered kingdom war system? (So… top 10 kingdoms are in S tier, the next 30 kingdoms in A tier, and the rest in B tier). Each tier has a different requirement for amount of kingdom wars to be done in a one week span (hypothetically), so S tier has to complete 10 wars, A tier has 7, etc…

This way, most of the high AL, active guilds face off against each other. But you’re probably wondering… that would eventually get boring, facing the same kingdoms over and over again, and you’re probably right… so maybe some kind of relegation system (bottom 2-4 S tier kingdoms get moved down to A tier… or give them a kingdom war match against the top A tier).

I’m sure some kind of ranking based on W/L (possibly including number of war participation, opponent records, etc… more than just plain W/L?) would work.

It would also be pretty cool to include a 1x shuffle of a match up (but totally a theory and probably not feasible). This may all turn out to be a meh idea, just wanted to propose something.

Edit: this may totally sound crazy haha, but on the topic of match ups and frequency of being matched up in kingdom war… could it be possible to have multiple people having multiple matches? (Like kingdom gauntlet?) so… like everyone gets a match up, but some people might get a couple/few to hit a limit of kingdom matches (like 30.. or whatever)

[hallow sierra]

The change in matchmaking. I don't see it benefitting to get players into the game that enjoy the grindy nature of it.

[charred furnace]

These are players invested in the game enough to start playing kingdoms competitively

They don’t dislike the game, they very much like it

That doesn’t mean they will always tolerate a seemingly obvious unfair system

This really isn’t a complicated subject, friends

[coarse path]

Still not getting matched btw 🥲

I really miss old matchmaking

[hallow sierra]

I understand that point of view. But fairness is not the only factor. In Orna, many things are'nt fair. Each combat turn is several dicerolls; will you hit or miss, will status effects eat your turn, will you high or low roll on damage etc etc. Orna is a gambit, so was matchmaking.

If we really need to do something about this core feeling, i suggest an option to que AL-less, while leaving AL matchmaking untouched. It gives an option for the casual players, and an option for those who want the raw experience they grinded for all those years. None of them is getting left behind.

Casuals dont need to engage as much with the grind in regards to AL and can play the game their way, while we can play with all we got. Noone is left behind.

Would probably also mean, getting rid of the anti AL hex.

[charred furnace]

Honestly, an option to disable ALs will be used 95% of them time. High AL when generally never be able to bring in their ALs to wars

It’s not what you want

[hallow sierra]

Okay. I understand. Then i guess we need to leave a core experience of Orna behind, to grow for a different playerbase. If thats how it has to be, i guess thats that then.

[charred furnace]

It’s not a different playerbase at all

[hallow sierra]

I see. Then i guess its just me who enjoyed the salty spitoon.

[hoary swan]

I think its okay to have to move on from killing 0 AL noobs to killing 75 AL noobs

More reason to level up

[hallow sierra]

I like it the other way around. ^^

[spark mica]

Nope its my story and a common one

[hallow sierra]

If its so common, then this change would most likely not be pushed regardless, and mostly accepted.

[frail light]

Didn't you mention that you started 5 or 6 years ago? I don't think that you were frequently fighting against AL100+ players back then 🤔

[hallow sierra]

This is correct, we didnt had AL back then. But people were less bad at PvP then currently

100 extra ALs dont carry you if your loadout is bad

[glacial pelican]

It’s interesting that 95% want that, yet we still end up catering to the remaining 5%.

[spark mica]

Most and probably all of the percentages presented here for argument are totally imaginary

[coarse path]

What do you mean by catering?

[spark mica]

There is no poll in which 100% of players respond

[frail light]

True, so I don't see the problem fighting against noobs without having higher stats. You will still win, but they see that they should "in principle" have a chance. If they grind for better gear and get more knowledge. Isn't that a good thing for a grind game?

I don't want to win just because I play the game longer than my opponent. 🤷

[spark mica]

Having played the game longer means you have grinded through more events for gear and gained knowledge to win.

[hallow sierra]

We are at a point where killig the root would most likely not affect the game too much. But again, having a heart sometimes is not a bad thing.

[hallow sierra]

i get that - but this is a grinding game, always was and will.

Im not even enjoying Orna PvP, this is about integrity for me.

[coarse path]

I just wanna get matched without having to lose all my pve progress. At this point it's hoc away most of my als or stop caring about helping my kingdom in wars 🤷‍♂️

[rough topaz]

ELO-based matchmaking would be much better than getting rid of ALs but Odie already said they aren't gonna do either so it's probably useless to keep discussing it

[spark mica]

I know, i know, this thread is about war matchups. But in the pursuit of “fairness“.

In no universe can a casual t3/5 player beat a serious player’s t3/5 othersoul for a crownship. Not because the new player is bad at PvP, rather they just will not acquire the gear pieces required to do it before they graduate to the next tier.

Sometimes steps taken in trying to create fairness just don’t work. And unforeseen unfairness is created as a result.

It seems like the core issue is korns are hard to get if you can’t win wars. Instead of making war matchups easier why not just make korns easier to get and more ways to grind them.

[glacial pelican]

It’s not going to kill a root—those players will just have to use their brain and good gear to win battles which they will still win most likely- not just rely on sheer playtime to gain a stat advantage. Some players hate hearing this, but I don’t understand how that’s satisfying when the outcome is essentially predetermined. Real PvP should involve decision-making, risk, and counterplay.

[hallow sierra]

calculating it of total is bad and punishes the people who cross ascend, calculating it off current is allowing oopsies but also, i wouldnt leave it on my ASC 12 RS because i would like to keep my territorys

[hallow sierra]

Why else would you spend hours a day grinding a system that needs a rework since it released for not either that or anguish?

[rough topaz]

I completely agree with you about PvP in general but at the same time I think players that put a lot of time and effort into the game should have at least one "competitive" content where they can use what they grinded for

The true fix to everything in order to make everyone happy would be:
Kingdom Wars with an ELO-based matchmaking system that works on two different levels to match Kingdoms based on their ELO and then players based on their personal winrate
Monthly BoF events with exclusive gear and/or cosmetics
Seasonal (3 months long) BoF leaderboards with an official tournament at the end of every season with an exclusive in game title and cosmetic tied to the season (either unique or rotating like in Guild Wars 2)

[hallow sierra]

The true fix would be to remove AL entirely from any PvP content - which would make a lot of the core players unhappy, as ALs in general introduced a mechanic that attracts compoetition through all shapes and forms, and is not healthy for the game at all. WIth anguish we now have a reason for PvE ascensions (while for PvE alone they are MUCH to expensive), but for PvP, all i can see is bully smoll.

[rough topaz]

That definitely wouldn't be the true fix if, as you said, a lot of people would be unhappy

My propositions would give every kind of player both content and a purpose

[hallow sierra]

Yes, the people who are keeping an unhealthy minority of the game alive at all costs, in which im guilty of myself.

I cannot say at all what we top players want for the game is healthy for it in any shape or form and if anything, it feels like we try to keep THE part of orna alive that holds it back from very good to excellent.

I dont think ALs should be part of PvP. I dont think balance should matter. I think fun is what truly matters in Orna, as it did from day 1, but then we showed up, most demanded balance, and we shoved Orna into a threshhold it never belonged it. It is a passion project, created by someone with a beautiful vision, who now tries to keep the players happy that helped him grow, at the detrement of the future of what we helped grow.

[rough topaz]

Those players are the ones who spent and keep spending the most on the game so it wouldn't make any sense for any company to upset them and it's just unrealistic, it won't happen
My idea would make everyone happy but it would also financially make sense for NF, if it wasn't for the resources needed to develop everything (especially the ELO-based system)

[hallow sierra]

With the new player influx, i dont think we are necessary. I think that this game has an insane potential to grow in a great direction, if we let go of "we grinded for thousands of hours we DESERVE this"

[rough topaz]

The new player influx is low and the player retention is even lower

[hallow sierra]

then why at all would we make adjustment to matchmaking?
I say, in the hopes that changes, and we can move away from the unhealthy core.

[charred furnace]

I would say this effort is all compromise, no cater

[rough topaz]

What I said many times in this thread already is that the change doesn't make sense because, if the objective is to help new players, it would be much better to have them access events sooner, make the initial grind less tedious, lonely and imbalanced and make it faster and funnier for them to get through the first 250 levels and the first 75 ALs

[spark mica]

Yeesh let me get there first

[indigo horizon]

also, to add up to these examples since AI doesn't have the full picture, and perhaps going a bit off-topic:

• pokemon doesn't make much sense since there's also IVs and EVs which vastly influence the stats besides levels
• WoW only normalizes these stats in "for fun" competitions, competitive pvp also has scaling and it is much more punishing (since you have pvp scaling gear, kinda like anguished gear but for pvp only and obtainable only with pvp currency)

---

going back on-topic: as for general matchmaking with the latest few changes, we've faced more high ranked kingdoms lately and participation/distribution seems to be a bit better, so can't deny that the last few changes seem to have helped (ty Odie)

[rough topaz]

WoW PvP isn't equalized at all, not even the competitive Arena is equalized (trinkets etc.)
I had already mentioned this

[solid glen]

Gear vs lvls cant compare it to orna which is gear and levels

[rough topaz]

Man, can you stop with the mental gymnastics already? I can't anymore

[solid glen]

Its not hard. You bring up WoW but misreference it. Wow brackets levels for pvp. Orna does not

[rough topaz]

Level and gear both provide stats, what you said doesn't matter at all
The brackets don't matter, a player can have 1k elo and have the same gear as a 3k elo player just because he grinded for it

[hallow sierra]

the brackets are entire skillbased. Equipment makes a HUGE difference but it is also a much more active game then tap and wait so skill makes a much bigger difference

Also you will most likely not start to advance in WoW with bad gear.

[modern kayak]

If we want to compare wow gear to orna gear, than orna would need to have anguish levels working for PvP to be a fair comparison

[hallow sierra]

and your experience when you JUST starting to play PvP in WoW will suck ass because everybody and their grandson has okay to good pvp gear with all the nice stats, and you will not.

and you gonna wipe yourself through for a couple hours before your equip is getting fine

[solid glen]

WoW aside, the pvp brackets for Orna are

T1, T2....T8, T9, T10-11 with 0 to infinite AL

[hallow sierra]

PvE Gear is capped in PvP, while PvP gear gets their "anguish boost" in PvP combat

[rough topaz]

Yeah so it's literally what I'm saying lmao, gear is not tied to elo. You can go into a match naked and match someone with BiS gear, all the trinkets etc.

[modern kayak]

This discussion is just completely unproductive and is, once again, moving away from the point of this thread . Some people like ALs in PvP. Some people don’t like ALs in PvP. BoF was created to have a venue where ALs don’t matter in PvP. Maybe we should invest in that instead of taking away the only avenue where ALs matter in PvP for the people that enjoy that?

[hallow sierra]

technically, if they drop their rank hard enough - yes. BUt in WoW you need a certain elo rank to buy the BiS gear

[rough topaz]

It's literally what I said above #1443812779118170212 message

[hallow sierra]

okay so. What would you like to suggest we do with the matchmaking changes?

[solid glen]

Nailed it hence why there's really nothing the studio can do to fix it at this time aside from just better matchmaking

[modern kayak]

Wait a few more days to see how matchmaking is looking with the new changes and then comment on it. Just like we do in the beta threads

We’re seeing better matchmaking in it burns since the change, but it’s still too small a sample to comment

[rough topaz]

If there was a lot more PvP content that's not based on ALs, no one would care about Kingdom Wars being AL-based and they wouldn't even be considered the only competitive content in the game, hence the frustration

[hallow sierra]

PvP in orna really doesnt shine, its a sidechick IMO. Das fine tho, its either turn based oneshotting or dicerolls galore

[modern kayak]

Agreed. So let’s make BoF great. Let’s get season rules, rotating match types, etc. The possibilities are endless

[hallow sierra]

House Rules in BoF that dont suck heavily would maybe even convince me to give it another shot

[indigo horizon]

I think for now we'll just have to wait and evaluate the matchmaking changes, as @modern kayak said.
regarding new content and other changes, we'll have to wait for phases 2 and 3 of the upcoming kingdom rework - if there's new content there, then we'll be back to healthily discuss :)

[modern kayak]

Having a player group suggesting new rules would be dope and give the studio an easier time. We have so many people organizing tournaments with various match types, etc, that could be an asset in helping the studio there

[solid glen]

If only there were pvpers on ORN

[hallow sierra]

A houseruleless que would be fire.
BoF is way too weenie hut junior'd for me, i would love the raw experience of just "better have HP turn 1 or DIE"

[rough topaz]

The next 3v3 tournament getting an official in-game title as well as official advertisement would be a very good start

[modern kayak]

I honestly think there should be a separate “entity” just dedicated to that. Get guys like you, MW, JustFold etc at a table with the studio and I’m sure you guys would come up with a ton of ideas for BoF

[hallow sierra]

BoF beeing good... God that would be a dream! ^~^

[inland vector]

I swear when I come in and read in here

I see this entire conversation on loop

[hallow sierra]

Depression?

[hallow sierra]

kinda same thing

[inland vector]

I just mean, Odie has kept up with what's been being repeatedly said

just repeatedly saying the same thing doesn't really help much

it drowns out other people putting in their own two cents

[rough topaz]

I don't think it's hard to come up with ideas for BoF

-Monthly events with exclusive gear and/or cosmetic drops;

-3 months long seasons for all three modes (1v1, 2v2 and 3v3) with leaderboards that reset at the beginning of each season and a tournament at the end of each season accessible by the top X players, with official in game title and cosmetic for every season (either unique or rotating);

-The events could also add special rules to the matches (e.g. debuffs deal more damage, no Ward, only attacks/skills/spells or anything else that would promote higher build variety and diversity).

[hallow sierra]

Time for a new thread? :O

Call it Finesse me daddy
No, dont listen to my intrusive thoughts
Yes, do it

[inland vector]

Yeah, BoF is a different topic 😛

you just won't want your thoughts about BoF getting drowned out by war stuff haha

[rough topaz]

It's a different topic but it's tied to what everyone is complaining about here
The ideal would be ELO-based Kingdom Wars matchmaking + BoF revamp but even with the current matchmaking (maybe just finding a way to match high ALs more often), if BoF was more alive then the more competitive PvP players who dislike ALs wouldn't care about Kingdom Wars

[charred furnace]

yes, and those things are happening too. it's not like this is blocking any other activities at the studio

[hallow sierra]

I do think it would reach a bigger audience and has a low to realistic chance of happening instead of almost zero if you make a no thread and continue here

[rough topaz]

That's good then, I just think other things should have had more priority but if this is the best course of actions for you and more changes are coming soon, it's whatever

[hallow sierra]

Basically this is also my pet peeve. So i guess its not even the change that i care for so much. Its whatever^^

[rough topaz]

I'm a random and I already have S2iVi spamming negative reactions to every message I post so it's probably best for someone more popular to make it

[charred furnace]

all in all, this change required fairly little dev time comparatively.

new events take a whackload of time, especially since we're including lower tiers in them now

this was a quicker win, so it happened sooner. larger efforts will be seen as they are ready

[rough topaz]

Yeah I can see that, it totally makes sense

[hallow sierra]

Can i ask if there will be a roadmap for what is already planner on happening next? Like, release re-morrigan event, kingdom phase 2, etc

[hallow sierra]

I am by no means popular, and i would be vastly disappointed if a person who aims to always speak his truth, ignorant of if people want it, aqquire any sort of popularity.

[solid glen]

Na good discussion just disagreeing. Thats what a discussion is.

There have been several BoF guild threads and suggestions in the past. I can make another one if theres interest though im sure the studio knows its dead just maybe not high on the list

[charred furnace]

I’d love to do the whole seasons / rotating house rules, etc thing. It’s just so hard to justify prioritizing it over other efforts when usage is already so low - it’s a gamble of studio resources

[rough topaz]

Don't you think usage would be much higher after the changes tho? Perhaps you could make a Discord/in-game poll to better understand the magnitude of a possible implementation

[solid glen]

Its definitely a gamble to rotate totally agree with that. I don't think the pvp scene is big enough to justify rotation for NFs focus of resources atm. But something to better incentivize participation in the guild would absolutely be welcomed and would help gauge actual usage

[spark mica]

If everyone loves no ascension PvP so much why isn’t BoF more popular

[solid glen]

Theres no reward

[rough topaz]

Because there's little to no incentive for it and you need to invest a lot in order to compete with the few dedicated players, for nothing in return

[spark mica]

Isn’t winning the incentive and reward

[queen mist]

Maybe make a road map, then a poll where players decide what to focus more development?

[rough topaz]

That would be very good, it's pretty much what OldSchool Runescape does

[solid glen]

Ironically playing BoF makes you fall further behind the AL grind for all other forms of pvp

If non AL PvP were the best way to ascend for Other AL PVP stuff that would likely incentivize it more

Instead of PvE being the best way to ascend for PvP strength

[sacred shuttle]

This is what I figured. But I also always wondered if BOF just needed a better carrot (rewards). Maybe start with something small and see if the usage goes up

[solid glen]

Exactly then you can decide whether to spend dev time for something more rather than take a gamble. Carrot is all that is needed for now

[jovial leaf]

Well, it's only 2 form of PvP in the game though..
BoF and Challenge (allies or kingdom mates)..
Since others are like PvE with player flavor..

[charred furnace]

That’s the “gamble” - sure, it could be higher, but it also may not make a difference. If the latter, then our limited resources should have been spent on something else

[charred furnace]

We essentially used to do this. The community changes its priorities pretty frequently though, so it was hard to commit to a long term roadmap

[rough topaz]

What are you prioritizing right now, if I may ask?

[charred furnace]

imo, start with a BoF booster event - double rewards for a weekend. See how much engagement there is - go from there

[charred furnace]

atm: January event, balance patch, new player experience stuff, then kingdom rework phase 2

[sacred shuttle]

At least on topic for wars, I do hope someday in the far off future it becomes something a bit deeper and more “visual”. War right now is basically 1v1 arena fights. AL or no AL it’s just not that interesting, there are no collective choices to make for your kingdom as a team beyond hexes and cleanses. It’s all on you knowing who your matchup is and how their AI and kit works. There are other gaming examples out there that have kingdoms/guilds with wars that have visual/tactical components. I mean something like a map perhaps where players can be assigned (with buffs or other conditions?) and the opposing side can hex those players.

[rough topaz]

Sounds good. Perhaps the BoF booster weekend could be on the same weekend when the 3v3 tournament starts? It would be very cool

Making an official announcement for the tournament would also be very cool

[dapper knoll]

Last time the rewards were boosted in BoF, the only thing that happened was that you could find top lb players afking there to get the guild level rewards

So idk if that'll help, tbh

[rough topaz]

I think an official announcement one week before the tournament + booster event might lead to different results

[dapper knoll]

The booster event won't even affect the tourney when it comes to rewards, since you don't get any from custom matches

And the people who enjoy live pvp are already in the UBC server, or at least most of them

But who knows

[rough topaz]

It doesn't matter, it will be a chance for people participating to have better rewards while trying their builds out or even just have a BoF marathon leading to the tournament

I know for a fact there are many new players taking part into the tournament and the UCB server is small so a lot of people might be interested but don't even know it's happening

[exotic prism]

I don't think a booster would do anything. Changes need to happen to the guild itself or the rewards it offers

[dapper knoll]

Yeah, pretty much

[rough topaz]

He's aware more needs to be done but the tournament + a booster event would be a decent way to understand how much interest there is

[glacial pelican]

Great point! A lot of what we’re calling PvP right now is really PvE against player-controlled characters, rather than true PvP. The modes that are actual PvP are BoF guild, direct challenges, and tournaments.

On that note, if anyone wants to play some real PvP where everyone starts on the same playing field and Foresight determines who goes first—and where you can win a share of 1,000+ scrolls—we’re running a 3v3 tournament in the BoF guild starting next week in the Unfelled Battle Club. Shoot me a message and we’ll try to get you on a team. We also have a free-agent chat set up to help put teams together. We’re currently at 9 teams with a week left to go before it starts for a 6 week Swiss format. 1 match a week is all that needs to be played.

[long spear]

The mechanics for awarding korns probably need a look. A tie gets you nothing and a loss against a high ranked kingdom with good participation gets you scant korns but it’s better than a tie.

[exotic prism]

I still haven't been matched since the beginning of December 😭 the shuffle mechanic Odie mentioned or maybe just a type of mercy rule as I suggested before would be nice

Oh I did not mean to reply to that message lmao

[fossil shore]

Bof can be dominated if you have good gear and know what your doing, you can just go hours without losing more than a few times, and this is good I enjoy winning. Although... People don't enjoy losing.

So I wouldn't be opposed to something where you can build your set from a premade selection of gear/skills. Maybe an event where you rack up the most wins or the best win/loss percentage . Idk I'm just spitballing here.

[rough topaz]

Did Odie say this was supposed to happen?

[dapper knoll]

#1443812779118170212 message

[charred furnace]

AL50+ is the top bracket

[rough topaz]

What does that have to do with my question? Lol

[dapper knoll]

It literally answers it

[rough topaz]

Don't you think AL51 vs AL200+ is even worse than AL0 vs AL50 and that an AL100 or at least AL75 and below should still be considered a new player?

[strange solar]

He's gotta make a cut off at some point, or we eat longer matchmaking times.

What do you feel would be a good point to remove the "training wheels"?
-# nvm I see the 75 suggestion

[charred furnace]

it was 75+ a week ago, too little matches got created

[dapper knoll]

You can definitely kill an AL200 player being an AL66 player, since at that point you’re already well geared

[rose heart]

You just probably can't kill Ensseric specifically as an AL 66 player 😆

But AL 100+ players struggle with him too

[strange solar]

-# Bet he's not stasis immune, let's gooo

[rough topaz]

I see but at this point isn't it better to remove it completely and have more players get matched in a War?
To me, it doesn't make sense that
0 vs 50 = bad
51 vs 200+ = good

[exotic prism]

Makes perfect sense to me. ALs don't tell the whole story

[rose heart]

The way ALs work each AL is weaker than the last, in effect. Obviously AL 50 vs AL 200 isn't ideal, but also there are very very few AL 200 players so the problem really isn't going to come up that often

[exotic prism]

There are a huge amount of reasons why it's better this way tbh

[rough topaz]

I disagree, AL66 can be achieved very quickly and there's much more disparity between an AL66 and an AL200 than there is between an AL0 and an AL51, in stats, gear and time/effort invested in the game

[dapper knoll]

At AL50 vs 200 it’s just AL, at AL0 vs AL50 it’s AL, gear, celestial classes…

[exotic prism]

Al 0 means inexperience, newbie. That's who needs protection

[rose heart]

-# (It hurts me that level 250 is now "newbie" as far as PvP is concerned)

It's true. It just hurts.

[exotic prism]

Fwiw I had several AL before lvl 250, I think that's the norm anyway

[rough topaz]

I think there's less difference between an AL0 and an AL50 than what you are suggesting
Based on the interactions I've had so far, most players don't even think about target farming and investing in a PvP set and only focus on PvE even until AL75-100, unless they are in a more PvP/leaderboard oriented Kingdom and even then it's not always the case

[exotic prism]

I'd guess the amount of ppl at AL50 or higher is quite low

[rose heart]

You can't just accidentally get to AL 50+. If you decide to push your AL but not worry about a PvP loadout, then you'll perform worse in kingdom PvP, it's as simple as that.

[rough topaz]

It's not only AL0, it's the 0-50 range and anyway Celestial Classes have been mentioned but you can play no Celestial vs Celestial even at T10

[exotic prism]

Tbh I'd lower the protection to AL 30 or something

[dapper knoll]

I accidentally played 106 days and I’m at AL57, I guess I’m still a very new player, since I’m still far from 66 or 75

[rough topaz]

You have 106 days of in game playtime and are AL57?

[dapper knoll]

Yeah, and I can kill 150-200AL players

So I don’t see the issue here

[rough topaz]

I think that's very low and you are also not understanding my point at all, you are just arguing for the sake of arguing

[rough topaz]

At this point, especially if the tradeoff is for higher AL players to get matched less often, I think the "protection" should be lowered or even lifted yeah

[sacred shuttle]

[rough topaz]

Nice server name

[sacred shuttle]

Oh that’s my IGN

@ Odie, can you make sure I only match with @hoary swan from now on? Even if it’s not his kingdom.

[rough topaz]

It's not your IGN 😔

[sacred shuttle]

Alternatively

Konq can just perma bench me

[rough topaz]

Lmao

[sacred shuttle]

This was a really nice and indirect way to share that I got to 200 today

🎉

[rough topaz]

Congratulations king

[sacred shuttle]

Anyways sorry I don’t think there is a great solution. The spread of AL is very wide and also sparse.

There are a lot of tools though for lower AL to win fights but even at matched AL it’s never going to be a straight stomp match

[modern kayak]

Please do, I need to get my winrate above his

[solid glen]

Im just gonna intentionally be 49 ALs then

So I don't have to deal with a 150% stat difference before the fight starts

[exotic prism]

Have fun with that

Purposefully sandbagging to keep newbie protection is quite the strat

Anyway, I'm still matchless since forever. Please add some type of shuffle or mercy mechanic

[solid glen]

Its not a strat i just dont enjoy AL PVP

[glacial pelican]

Its not PVP.

[coarse path]

Time to make some al 49 alts so I can participate in wars again 🙏

[hoary swan]

I'm getting a decent amount of wars lately

[charred furnace]

inb4 odie changes the bracket to AL48

[left dust]

someone random showed up in my kingdom, dunno who they are so I'll probably kick em

[glacial pelican]

I feel like there is a way to game this to get fairer matches. By stopping at the top of the lower bracket. Its kinda like ALs lite vs ALs unlimited.

[sacred shuttle]

i think this solves someone's issue from earlier today

[hoary swan]

Randgen weekly random number between 40-50

[coarse path]

Easily adapted to 🙂

[sacred shuttle]

1. make AL hex available more often 2) steadfast can now resist the hex

[charred furnace]

Now it’s 47

Now it’s random every match make

[coarse path]

Perfect

[left dust]

slowly conditioning players to just want AL0 wars, then just disabling ALs for wars altogether

[hoary swan]

I honestly think if people who don't want to do AL want to sit in the 50 bracket that's pretty reasonable

[sacred shuttle]

what if an AL 50 player can fight the higher AL player multiple times for every additional 50 AL over them?

[modern kayak]

Just join a kingdom with only AL50s, ez pz

[solid glen]

Its basically an inconvenient AL opt in/out system lol

[coarse path]

That's actually pretty close to what jot is atm. Besides me, chleban, aerogen and mychild everyone is right around that al range

[modern kayak]

AL50+s I mean. Technically, if no one is sub 50, you should be matched as often as everyone else right?

[left dust]

all you gotta do is merge your big guys with us and then Jot's set

bring Chleban back 🥲

[modern kayak]

Or send them our way, we’ll take good care of them

[long spear]

Um just faced AL 214 when I’m 65 so something has been adjusted.

[charred furnace]

50+ has been the top bracket since early last week

[long spear]

Uh that’s a bit much

[charred furnace]

It’s a necessary evil - you all weren’t getting matches where it was higher

[exotic prism]

I'm confused - is 50 AL the newbie protection or the highest bracket?

[long spear]

But I understand the top kingdoms need fodder

[frail light]

The highest bracket

[exotic prism]

If it's both, that seems real bad

[frail light]

It's 0, 25,50

[long spear]

Ok but if my mid level casual kingdom who participates in a manner that doesn’t hold up the top 20 kingdoms and they can get more wars done well a korn count of 132 is buns be real.

Damn ties are 0 that’s stupid too.

I’ll stop reminding folks to fight their wars for a loss

There has to be something reciprocal

We don’t want to go all out for top ten but if we face those opponents so be it but the lack of korns is a problem

[charred furnace]

I’m not sure what we are debating. Large AL gaps existed in the old system, they are now tightened in the new system. Tightening them further will result in you not getting matched

Which would you like?

[long spear]

AL 65 is not doing much of anything to a 200+ opponent let’s be real

I don’t mind the gaps but the rewards are what every kingdom is looking for bottom line

Lose to It Burns well here’s a 100 korns for whatever is junk

Tie a top 50 no one gets anything

[charred furnace]

Okay, I don’t think we’re talking about matchmaking?

[long spear]

We’re not?

[modern kayak]

Ties being worth 0 is weird, but isn’t really MM related

[charred furnace]

I think your current gripe is rewards related, not match making related. Perhaps a new thread would be best, if you believe the community can rally behind a reward change

[long spear]

Our kingdom just faced 4 top ten in a row. Our kingdom is somewhat curated on participation but it’s not on the level of win or get kicked. We fight out matches in a mostly timely manner so the top kingdoms can advance like they want to yet our rewards are crap.

I’m all about the challenge of high end kingdoms it actually fun but if it’s a matter of feeding korns to them then something needs looked at.

[charred furnace]

I’m sorry, I just don’t understand what we’re discussing

Again, a new thread would be best to chat about KW rewards. Then, we can co time to focus on match making here

[long spear]

You had a problem with these “new kingdoms” who supposedly couldn’t handle the heat and were on their heels wondering how they would ever compete. There is definitely a high echelon that is so far beyond most kingdoms. We do ok and earn more than enough to survive but the rewards aren’t fair. Maybe that needs a new discussion but I think it’s connected.

And monitoring the matchmaking for this thread I think I have a handle on it. As discussed before, all kingdoms do not fit one mold. Over the course of three years I would rather my kingdom be near 100 there is absolutely no reason to be in the top 50. Especially now.

There is no reward for being top tier I think everyone would agree. Maybe our losses will move us down and yeah that would be great so we can face more reasonable opponents. Believe me we like going wow look at this guy but at the end of it we’re looking for korns too.

Does any of this make sense?

I do appreciate you Odie

[charred furnace]

From what I gather, the new matchmaking is definitely better for your kingdom

Fairer matches means more orns

[long spear]

It’s better in terms of the quickness. Which was the argument from what I gathered was top end kingdoms who couldn’t find a match. My point is ok we’ll fight but the results are paltry. For the effort to move them along. Maybe that doesn’t matter, maybe we could chill on reminding players to fight their battles. Obviously a little over a hundred korns is meaningless or for a tie nothing, but we try and make sure we aren’t holding anything back. We could easily fall into that thought process. My point being fighting a high ranked kingdom should be worth more than some mid hundred kingdom for a loss or tie.

[long spear]

Matches went from fair to over the top with our mostly mid AL kingdom

And again this is coming from someone who monitors every single kingdom war for participation

I honestly think the korn rewards have been nerfed

For wins at least

[charred furnace]

I’m just a little confused as the old system had no AL limits, so it was generally more over the top

[long spear]

As much as I’ve followed along there is no real insight or reliable way to determine rewards. It seems very random at times.

[charred furnace]

AL just doesn’t influence rewards. It’s a flat rate for each win

[long spear]

I always felt it was participation on both kingdoms but that has suprised me at times

Flat rate based on just numbers? I mean I guess that might correlate

Our kingdom fluctuates membership so small matches say around ten I guess pulls less korns than say a big match with 20 or more.

[solid glen]

This is being heavily overanalyzed.

Matchmaking now is AL 0-50 and 50+

If we raise the bar to AL 75+, there will be less matching for higher AL kingdoms.

If we keep as is, there will be more matching but the low end will get punished.

Its a lose lose honestly someone will be unhappy regardless of how we move the needle here.

[long spear]

So. On the AL 50+. Like it’s fair AL 65 vs AL 215?

But yeah the top kingdoms get more matches

I’m saying the loss reward need something for the effort

[strange solar]

Which as Odie mentioned, a different topic

[modern kayak]

There aren’t that many AL200+s. You’re more likely to face a lot more 50-80s than 200+s

[long spear]

How

[solid glen]

Is there anything that would help you specifically Odie? A poll perhaps? We have surveyed already and this was the result:

#1443812779118170212 message

[long spear]

It all falls into matchmaking

[modern kayak]

I do agree that losing to a stronger player could give you a slightly higher reward, as to not punish mid AL kingdoms

[strange solar]

Matchmaking ≠ rewards

[long spear]

Which, again not enough info, might be happening

[modern kayak]

A very statistically insignificant survey, at 13 v 17 for the 2 most voted answers 😅

[long spear]

BS

[solid glen]

Im only trying to help here. What would be helpful? This discussion has been pretty cyclical

[long spear]

Let our kingdom constantly fight down

[solid glen]

This is the reality currently

And my solution is play at AL 49

[modern kayak]

Is 25 confirmed to be one of the bracket cutoffs?

[exotic prism]

I'm not sure why protection applies all the way up to 50 ALs and then jumps into "this is now the highest bracket"

Feels like progression is newbie -> pro

[modern kayak]

AL0, 1-24, 25-49, 50+?

[solid glen]

Read my post. Either you get no matches or you get beat downs. There are not a lot of people in the 100+ AL population

[modern kayak]

Because at 75 matchmaking just didn’t work

[long spear]

Felt like it was doing that before say a few days ago

[modern kayak]

75 was the previous highest cutoff

[rough topaz]

I mean that's what I've been saying this whole time, it doesn't make sense to not allow 0 vs 51 just to allow 51 vs 220
I don't know if I'm very bad at explaining myself or what

[long spear]

On the other hand I do understand how high AL kingdoms would be left out. Can someone from It Butns chime in to say how their matchmaking has been?

[strange solar]

And matchmaking took too long at the cut off.

We're balancing opinionated "fairness" with objective matchmaking lengths.

[modern kayak]

Our 2 sub 50 players have been matched pretty much every war. Our highest ALs weren’t being matched until the last change, now it has been pretty even

[hoary swan]

I feel like matches aren't bad right now. Not as much as before the changes but I'm still fighting a handful of times a day. Below 50 AL being safe is already an improvement for those players over previous system. Its really a narrow group of, just above the 50 cutoff that might have a rough time.

[exotic prism]

I think protection should be lower lol

[long spear]

I’m really not against high ranked kingdoms but there should be a premium win or lose

100 korns is broke heck even 1000 korns would be broke

[modern kayak]

I think 50 ALs is a good buffer of time where you get to farm ideal gear while farming those, and working on your strategy and build. At AL50 you should be able to punch several ALs above you if you know what you’re doing

[long spear]

Not to mention a tie for a great war. Nothing? For real? You want good matchmaking that’s going to happen. A split on possible korns isn’t asking much.

Why is that yawn

[exotic prism]

Ok what is everyone's thoughts on a scaling range for AL matching? Like every 10 ALs increases the max range of ALs you can be matched against

[hoary swan]

Could do something like x value for each kill
Lose war: .5x mult
Tie: 1x mult
Win: 2x mult

Then every kill matters to an extent

[strange solar]

It's off topic to the discussion of fair matches vs quick matches.

[long spear]

I don’t care about that

[strange solar]

Please stop trying to derail this discussion thread

[long spear]

I care about the rewards for having to deal with the try hards

[long spear]

Go away

[modern kayak]

I think you should take Odie’s advice and create a topic for us to discuss kingdom war rewards. Or this thread is going to get confusing

[long spear]

You really think every kingdom wants to be top? This is the dumb stuff that is mind boggling. Kingdoms want korns. Gauntlets alone don’t do it. It’s the reason top kingdoms cry.

[long spear]

This thread is weeks old how is it confusing now?

[rough topaz]

This thread was very confusing already, it's even worse now

[strange solar]

<@&448920498387288094> could we get a thread rerailer please.

[modern kayak]

Because it’s on the topic of “who gets matched with who”, not on how much you get for beating them

[long spear]

Top kingdoms got their matches to punch down on so it’s all good?

[long spear]

It’s not beating them it’s BS 100 korns for a loss

[modern kayak]

Top kingdoms had it much better in the original system, what is this even supposed to mean? 😅

[strange solar]

Odie already told you to go somewhere else with your idea, please do so.

[modern kayak]

Again, not disagreeing. Just needs to be discussed in a separate thread

[long spear]

I’m willing to bet they are back to normal

[modern kayak]

We are not, I’ll guarantee that

[long spear]

Whatever

[long spear]

You guarantee that huh

[modern kayak]

I’m in It Burns, we still get less wars and smaller wars, leading to less KOrns

[long spear]

Which kingdom?

Ok

How in the world did we match with you

It matchmaking is as fair?

[modern kayak]

Was it fairer before? We could match with literally anyone before, now we only face 2 guys at 25-49 and everyone else is 50+

[strange solar]

Define fair, matchmaking time looks to be improved from the beginning of the month. And I'm fighting in wars again

[exotic prism]

I'm not

Please help

😭

[long spear]

You guys corner the conversation it’s obvious

Just look

[modern kayak]

What does that mean? Please answer me, was it fairer before the changes?

[long spear]

It’s 🐂

[long spear]

I’ve followed this for a long time

[strange solar]

I'm not fighting t9s anymore, so I vote fairer lol.

[long spear]

It’s was always about these random new kingdoms who don’t know how to run it to a circumstance where casual kingdoms have to face crap we don’t want to deal with so you can punch down on someone

I’d love to understand the rules your kingdom has

[modern kayak]

I truly don’t understand what point you’re trying to make. If that’s on me I apologize

[long spear]

Like share that nonsense

[hoary swan]

Come to the discord and read the rules

[modern kayak]

Participate in as many wars as you can. That’s it

[long spear]

It’s hard enough to recruit but top kingdoms have these expectations that are buns. Just share what it is

[long spear]

Really?

That’s it huh

[left dust]

Our kingdom has next to no activity requirements, just do stuff when you're matched, and you're up against us - we're fairly casual

Here's full transparency about the war Grumbuck's talking about, with ALs thanks to today's patch

[modern kayak]

We don’t hide that we’re a PvP oriented kingdom, and we tell everyone that joins that. People share their builds and we help them improve them. That’s it, we’re no whipping anyone into farming ALs and doing wars

[left dust]

here's our rules

[long spear]

How many members?

[left dust]

8

[hoary swan]

Who in hild worrying about their k gaunt?

[modern kayak]

This is a pretty high AL kingdom imo, don’t see how it’s unfair that they’ll sometimes match with you or us tbh

[long spear]

You have to admit that isn’t normal

Like stop playing

[left dust]

We keep it low on purpose, so things are faster and we're reliant on less people for clears

[long spear]

You found your 8 and that’s it

Good for you

[modern kayak]

They’ve cycled members consistently though?

[left dust]

One left today they come and go often

[long spear]

I like to help new players

[left dust]

We hover round 6-10

[long spear]

And listen I never ever resented that I’m saying there is a disparity amongst kingdoms that at the crux of the argument isn’t recognized

Odie talks of new players

[modern kayak]

The entire thread and changes came about because of said disparity though?

[long spear]

Does anyone understand what it takes to get new players to a point of understanding the game let alone participating in PvP

[solid glen]

I do

[rough topaz]

Now that I think about it, if the matchmaking only takes the total AL into consideration without factoring the number of members in, then it's flawed because a Kingdom with 10 AL50 could match one with 4 AL200

[long spear]

We’re consistently top 30

[left dust]

Respectfully, you will lose wars sometimes (so will we!) - this patch is only a few days old, you should compare winrates prior to these changes and over the next couple weeks, you will see an improvement

Plus, all those who fought in this war you're discussing are not new players - 6 are AL50+, one is at our AL, and the only one that isn't is the king

[long spear]

For years

And I understand attrition

[strange solar]

Jot network knows how to grow new players lol

[modern kayak]

Many of our players joined while low AL. They’re current results are the work of years of learning and grinding

[long spear]

We do lose

[left dust]

I'm misunderstanding, are you casual or are you a leaderboard kingdom? Being top 30 and matching against top 10 kingdoms is not a far fling by any standards

[long spear]

How many members?

[long spear]

We get that casual

We just want korns

100% raids

Like why would you do wars?

It’s the best source of korns

[modern kayak]

Of the current 22, I’d say 16 joined while low AL (might be misremembering a couple, could be anywhere between 14-18)

[long spear]

Especially with casual player where we can’t flip a gauntlet in a day

[left dust]

Right, which leads me to the other thing - the kingdom rework incoming will drastically change how resources are gained

[long spear]

How do you reconcile that? Make people do that?

Or kick them?

[solid glen]

@long spear the issues with the current system are known. We can put this to rest honestly.

It really just comes down to more matches for the higher ALs vs fairer fights for all ALs.

Theres nothing to discuss just state your stance and move on from the discussion theres nothing to gain here other than that.

[long spear]

I can’t wait till I have to manage kingdom party stuff. That will be fun…

[long spear]

I mean people are talking

[left dust]

There isn't much to change here. Kingdom reworks incoming will change things majorly, we have balanced matchmaking to the best degree that we can

[long spear]

So glad Konq is here

There are nuances to running a kingdom that are often overlooked

Nothing will be solved but the conversation is important

[rough topaz]

What do you think about this mister Konq?

[left dust]

I am not a representative of a good king, I'll be honest - we just have big AL numbers and these people play often, so they are able to self-govern

[long spear]

And believe me we’re fine

[left dust]

Believe it is comparing total AL of those theoretically matched, not high roster low AL == low roster high AL

[long spear]

I’m a hand. I’m not even a king thankfully or we would only have 8-10

[left dust]

Which is why you'll usually have your highest AL folk only when matched against us

[long spear]

There are obvious class imbalances which isn’t a part of this conversation granted but people like what they like. This is why I say matchmaking is so far beyond just a vs b.

[long spear]

And we don’t have a problem with that. It’s just an idea especially when the conversation has been so focused on newbies. Like what’s the reward for casuals to get wars done in a timely manner? 100 korns?

[left dust]

If you're talking about a losing war - the chance to match with a winnable war quicker

[long spear]

What about the polite movement for the dominant kingdoms?

We could easily slow it down

Insufficiently studied science

That’s us

[modern kayak]

You’d make less korns then, since you’d fight less wars. It’s as much in your interest as theirs

[long spear]

Well does it matter really?

26 million

So

[left dust]

You would like the chance to earn more korns, I thought?

[modern kayak]

Isn’t your entire point that you want to make korns?

[long spear]

We could easily be one of those kingdoms that doesn’t do anything for 24 hours. I’m sure you’ve come across them. Getting frustrated waiting on someone to fight…

[modern kayak]

How would that benefit you though? I don’t get what you’re trying to say here

[long spear]

Out gain our spend. Obviously this is the time of year we are spending

Out gain the spend is the goal of everyone no?

[left dust]

Thankfully the "end early" rules help us out in that respect - see the current war, it's gonna end soon instead of waiting for all your folk to do their wars

[modern kayak]

Sure, I’m not arguing that. But then slowing down wars makes that harder for you, no?

[long spear]

End early??

Is that a king option?

[modern kayak]

Wars end when they’re mathematically over

[long spear]

Well yeah

[left dust]

They will end the hour after there's no choice for the losing kingdom to win and the winning kingdom to lose

[charred furnace]

What is a kingdom party?

[long spear]

Idk we’re fighting Hildakfar but r whatever

[left dust]

that's us 👋

[long spear]

Well yeah but if no one fights it would take 24 hours

Nice that’s the point Cher is like AL 215 or something

[solid glen]

Do you mind screenshotting the war matchup to show a data point for the AL mismatch?

[left dust]

I did a bit ago

[solid glen]

Otherwise this isnt helpful

[long spear]

Like do I rustle cat, psallo, dark and Leama to get their wars done like I would normally do?

Would that be helpful?

I mean it probably would right?

[left dust]

Nope, we got it handled on our side

'tis already over

[long spear]

😆 yes you did

[left dust]

just gotta give it a bit to end

[strange solar]

-# omae wa mou shindeiru

[long spear]

But if we didn’t do anything how would that work

[strange solar]

Then you've locked yourself in a room for 24 hours, for a loss

[long spear]

Not to mention the 150 ish al disparity

[long spear]

Ok

So

[strange solar]

Vs getting it over with and trying for orns with a different kingdom

[long spear]

All the crying about matchmaking comes to this

[strange solar]

If you want to be self-destructive, I won't be able to stop you. But I don't think it's healthy to design a game around such behavior

[long spear]

Ask Konq what Cher’s al is

I’m 65

[strange solar]

-# the war screen was already posted

[long spear]

It is. It must be a king thing to see that

I’m not the king

[left dust]

update your game, feature came out today

[long spear]

Pretty fair match up

But like isn’t this the same stuff that 0 AL were supposedly crying about?

[left dust]

0ALs now only match with up to 50AL people

[long spear]

Not that I ever seen anyone crying about anything

Ok so on the hour we will get out 5th loss today

Like it’s not even instant

Let me keep prodding members to fight for nothing

[left dust]

well that "instant" part is due to server load

[long spear]

I mean I can’t be the only one to see this

It’s not even about your kingdom

[solid glen]

You arent you just are the only one whos been going for the last 5 hrs

Several of us see it too

[long spear]

Some ethereal 0 AL somehow somewhere complaining I guess

[solid glen]

We totally understand the picture and the problem. Nothing more needing to be said

[long spear]

We don’t want to face that many top ten in a row

But I want them to get theirs absolutely

Small sample size.for sure

[charred furnace]

Okay, let’s be tangible:

what part of the new system do you believe is causing you to lose more?

[long spear]

I’m not sure

You can see

Our king not fighting?

[charred furnace]

You’re only losing by 1 fight?

[long spear]

Small sample

[charred furnace]

The matchmaking change is that there are smaller AL gaps, less high AL smashing lower AL.

How would this lead you to lose more?

[long spear]

Class disparity, over 100 AL difference um..

Well run kingdoms

[charred furnace]

All of those existed in the old system. Let’s chat about the new system

What about the new system is causing you to lose more?

[solid glen]

This is only partly correct.

The 0-15 AL guys and the 50-70 AL guys lose the most because of the small number of brackets.

The 40-50 AL and 100+ AL benefit the most.

Its just a bit choppy, for lack of a better word

[long spear]

The new system has had us albeit recently being punched down on but I would submit small sample

We’ll get our rank down and compete soon enough I guess

[charred furnace]

Yes, but before 0-15 AL could face 90-100 AL, no?

Surely it’s better for them now

[rough topaz]

I still think 50 vs 200 is worse and it's happening more now, no?

[charred furnace]

It wouldn’t happen any more, no

[long spear]

No it was good about a week ago. From my perspective it was all within ten AL

[solid glen]

Yes which is why this is better. However, a kingdom with a good number of 50-60 AL now draws in those Hlids, Jots, It Burns, ABS kingdoms of the world and absolutely suffer the most

[charred furnace]

Why would it draw them in more?

[long spear]

But I understand some kingdoms have these super high AL it is what it is

[solid glen]

Its a 50+ bracket, no? Thats all we have faced since the reset and our ALs are mostly in the 20-80 range

[rough topaz]

I mean, if 51 can't face 0-50 then of course it's gonna face more 200s than before

[solid glen]

That nails it^

Unless i dont understand

[long spear]

We do have one 100+ AL so maybe that’s it

[charred furnace]

Technically it is all queue dependent, I suppose

[solid glen]

We used to draw in all kinds of kingdoms but now its the top 1% all the time(last 24hrs...) and probably likely due to the bracketing. This is just what we draw in now

[long spear]

Her activity in Helheimer wasn’t enough

[charred furnace]

If the queue supports it, then the brackets could theoretically lead to more of those matches. If the queue didn’t, then there’d be less since there was no restriction

[solid glen]

Don't get me wrong the no restrictions and too much restrictions matchmaking versions wereworse overall but as i said I think the 50-60 AL frequent kingdoms suffer the most from this new system

[long spear]

Honestly our rank will go down like it has over the past few years and we will face much easier opponents

[rough topaz]

But what we are seeing is that
AL0s aren't getting matched
AL50-75s are getting 100+ ALs disparity matches more often
Only a few high ALs from each Kingdom are getting matched every War and for some reason it's always or almost the same being matched

[long spear]

Whatever power and influence does…

I feel it’s power based or else it wouldn’t matter

Though that number is junk

Look at it

[solid glen]

I suggest we give it a week through the holidays and all get more data points since this new version has been out for not very long.

After holidays please come with data points and we can see if our theory of 50-70 AL frequent kingdoms suffer the most here

[long spear]

Same with this ethereal influence number

[rough topaz]

My Kingdom screenshots every War by default and ALs are now shown so it's gonna be very easy to track and provide data

[solid glen]

Perfect lets revisit next week! Thanks for the thoughts

Test this hypothesis

[long spear]

Restarting after our loss to konq with 69 korns

69 f yeah

[charred furnace]

Right - and last week we were discussing too many 0ALs being matched, and agreed that the Kingdom’s roster of power should be prioritized

[long spear]

But 69 korns that’s ok?

[solid glen]

Exactly its a lose lose. Right now the higher power is prioritized and someone else will lose out

[long spear]

Tie would be 0

Not that we would tie them ever

But what if we did? Is 0 fair?

What I don’t understand is how you couldn’t start ascending once you pass 225-235 like that’s maybe a misunderstanding for those who are there without decent kingdom guidance.

There isn’t much in game to help you understand

It’s typically the problem for new kingdom members who just passed 225

Like the know nothing

There isn’t much in game to guide. Heck there isn’t much for people joining kingdoms to understand what should be expected. Let’s not get into the abomination in game chat is…

[rough topaz]

Odie already said they are working on improving the new player experience

[long spear]

Um BS

[left dust]

v3.20.1, the public beta

[rose heart]

Not everyone has public beta access, I think it fills up

Google puts a cap on betas

[exotic prism]

I do really dislike the idea of a hard cutoff bracket at 50 AL

It makes 0 sense that an AL 51 can't match to an AL 49. That's why I've suggested a range of AL disparity that increases as your AL increases

[sacred shuttle]

do we need AL bracketing when kingdom rank could be sorted by kwar win rate and then we just have traditional chunks (brackets) like top 10-20, 20-50, 50-100 or something. then the W/L ratio self organizes kingdoms into said brackets.

I assume thats the old formula not that I even know what that formula was

weighting kingdom LB by "power" or kgaunt metrics seems like archaic orna at this point

otherwise you keep the old one and have a "competitive" kingdom LB that is just based on kwar

not pot stirring just wondering where people think the best potential solution could exist

[sacred shuttle]

i like this idea. I think it would also work well if there was war shuffling

[hoary swan]

IMO if ranked by Kingdom rank, would sort itself out pretty quickly. Sure there would be some mismatch within a war, but generally would be fighting kingdoms with similar knowledge/competition/levels.

[sacred shuttle]

players get an additional bit of agency to perhaps try and move players around

[hoary swan]

Something like this could be paired with a monthly/seasonal reward to encourage climbing.

[hoary swan]

I know this thread is largely focused on making fair individual matches, but if you zoom out, from the kingdom win perspective its better if one of your weaker guys eats their strongest members kill. Worst case scenario is your highest guy gets beaten by theirs.

[glacial pelican]

If only kingdom rank was tied to war wins and not korns spent on raids....

[neat dune]

Almost 9 days without a war match... Is it because I'm close to the 50 Al bracket? I have 55 als.

[hoary swan]

Yeah, at this point I think it mostly is but still would be better if it were fully ironed out

[fervent tree]

Would it be possible to have a second soft bracket for ALs 30 to 70 or around their. It does not automatically kick in unless it provides more player match ups or what ever.

This could give players new to the AL50+ bracket a chance to match more in their AL range but still be open to matching with any AL50+

[late knot]

After a couple days of good pairings, we are back to 5v5 with the exactly same 5 people on our side, any chance something got broken in yesterday patch?

3 of these 5 make sense (the king and the only 2 guys with AL below 50), but the other 2 are AL 99 and 108 which is pretty average for our kingdom, no idea what makes them so special to always get matched

[spark mica]

Like Phil mentioned, “ It makes 0 sense that an AL 51 can't match to an AL 49.”

“What about the new system is causing you to lose more?” : Simple, you can no longer be matched with players below you as often because that entire match pool has been removed.

[burnt mural]

He should just take it as motivation to reach AL 200. 😂😭😂😭

[rough topaz]

He really should 💀

[burnt mural]

Is that your VD stats? 😂

[burnt mural]

Well. That’s a beat down 😂

I’m sad I missed the convo. lol

Crap. I’m tagging. Sorry yall.

[burnt mural]

Ohhhh. That’s really really nice!!!

[exotic prism]

So this is why I keep complaining - why was LIZ/Popullious matched here and not me? I'm 2 ALs lower and a "closer" match, and I haven't been matched in almost 3 weeks. How does the system work that it prioritizes some people over others constantly?

And why was Oro matched against a 230 AL but not LIZ or LOW or me

We have other people above 50ALs that aren't getting matched

[rough topaz]

57 vs 236 😭 🥀

[burnt mural]

It’s interesting how many people here want to match up against higher ALs, but are ok matching up with lower ALs. To me, I see some patterns. People want to win; for 2 reasons, korns or pride. I also see some of: “I’ve grinded enough at this point to start reaping rewards for my effort now”, across all ALs, higher or lower. And I’m seeing a lot of emotion tied to winning/losing. That’s what PvP is, there is emotion attached to it. But like Sokam says, this isn’t actually PvP, it’s just PvE. A computer using a build on your character. No matter where we set the AL limits, someone will complain. And high AL players don’t need to be punished in this way because it does affect their PvE experience. Removing ALs from wars would probably solve the fairness part of the equation, but there’s another option. Do nothing. There will always be someone that will draw the short end. And at AL 50 it most definitely is a conscious effort to want to play the AL race. I have no problem with the AL 50 being the beginning of the top tier.

I also think that if all these feelings are going to go into kingdom wars, we could also reduce the war rewards and increase the gauntlet rewards so the kingdoms that have the most trouble with korns don’t suffer as much.

Or…if feelings are gonna go into kingdom wars, then make it actual PvP and remove ascensions.

But all these feelings should be channeled into a true PvP system and the kingdom matchmaking should just be a PvE element for the kingdoms

[exotic prism]

I don't mind getting matched to higher AL

[rose heart]

Take "nobody" as a general term instead of personally

[burnt mural]

But there’s the complaint. Oro is definitely in the AL race.

[burnt mural]

Yes please. I’m speaking about no one in particular. I’m just talking about the general feelings surrounding the kingdom matching

[rose heart]

I wanted to jump on that because I think your message is really well thought out and falling into semantics is pointless lol

[rough topaz]

Exactly because Kingdom Wars are PvE, people should be able to use the ALs they grinded for BUT there should be a lot more actual PvP content

No PvP player would even care about Kingdom Wars if BoF was alive and if some of the suggestions made in this thread were to become true, it would just be seen as another Gauntlet and there would be way less emotions involved

[burnt mural]

It does remind me of old PvP. Back when someone would want to hit me really hard and they would just spend weeks at it. I would just go to their city, do a 10 hr break and drive around for 5 hours hitting them back. I’d take 1,000 areas. Then they would quit. But I would have no idea. They were way too invested. And in the end, it wasn’t even actual PvP cause that computer is dumb as rocks. They want to play PvP, but can’t. The feelings are of a PvP player, but in a PvE setting. Like I said, I’m only talking about these feelings and what options are there for a positive outlet for the game. In the end, we are all invested in our own way in this game and having people feeling kicked down is not good. Whether they’re AL 0, 20, 50 or 200

[sacred shuttle]

going to cherry pick here and say that removing AL doesn't make it pvp according to your logic. It is now just easier pve

I dont think it is correct to call wars or arena pve though. Yes its computer AI controlled but it is a real person's character with all their time investment into it AL and gear wise. The ai piece of it is unfortunate because it is bad, but calling it pve is strange to me. bof is live pvp, everything else is not live

[rough topaz]

I still think the current Kingdom Wars matchmaking iteration is very bad

It makes no sense an AL1 can't match an AL51, an AL49 can't match an AL51, yet an AL57 can match an AL236 as seen above
Whether we are talking about emotions, fairness or even just structure, either lift the "noob protection" or create more brackets (1-25, 26-50, 51-100, 101-200?)

[exotic prism]

I don't say "I don't" as a point of semantics, I say it as a point of dissenting data

At the end of the day saying "nobody does this" is a generalization that is not helpful

[burnt mural]

I’ll change it

I agree with you Phil. That’s something I preach a lot

[exotic prism]

It's human, just wanted to clarify things

[rose heart]

To answer your specific suggestion about more brackets, there are literally not enough players in the game at higher tiers to allow higher AL players to match consistantly. Even right now with AL 50+ all being in bracket we have players like Phil who can't get a match

[exotic prism]

But why can't I get a match? That's not a problem of availability

[rough topaz]

It's not true, the system is clearly flawed as it's always the same people getting matched

[rose heart]

It at least partially is, the kingdom you're facing doesn't have enough players compared to your own in that same bracket

[exotic prism]

My kingdom is regularly matching several of our higher AL, just not a few of us specifically

Every match since the latest update, LIZ has matched (just for example)

[rose heart]

Definitely, I think there are additional flaws, but high brackets were a problem that got us into this current situation in the first place

The original "new war matchmaking" problem was that high AL players were locked into a high bracket that wasn't getting matches and increasing queue times

[exotic prism]

Agreed. Just needs more tweaking

[rough topaz]

If more brackets are impossible to create due to numbers, just remove the 1-50 bracket as it doesn't make any sense and actually only made things worse both for all of the 51-75 players that are getting "bullied" (to use a term mentioned before) a lot more due to not being able to match equal or lower players and for the 100+ ALs that have a lower matchmaking pool and don't get matched as often (if they get matched)

[burnt mural]

Lemme try. Removing ALs only would be only a half measure. I just think PvE and PvP have very different effects on the emotions of people in general. And they seem to struggle with the feeling of being beat down. I think that top kingdoms would still be top kingdoms even without ALs. Gear and amities are just too important and the grind gap is still massive. I say it as a starting point of a discussion. I would love to understand what motivates people. But to me, reducing rewards and increasing gauntlet korns would be more effective.

And the reason I think it’s PvE and not PvP, is because it’s only your player. I doesn’t have any of your adjustments or thought process. It is a poor imitation of PvP

[rose heart]

It is still PvP, because it's up to each player to strategize a loadout against the other player

One player is choosing something for the other player to play against

[rough topaz]

No joke, if I were to tell anyone external that in the game I play 49 can't match 51 but 51 can match 230, they would laugh at me

[burnt mural]

Nah. I think if you want to play the AL race, you get the AL boys

The ones that should never be curb stomped are the new 250s

[burnt mural]

Bah. In the one shot meta it’s honestly you choose a first move against another player’s first move. lol

[exotic prism]

I'm in favor of AL brackets like... 0-25, then around 25 and above you can get matches up to say 3x your AL

[solid glen]

I truly encourage everyone to save war screenshots over the next week to get more data points of how often the wars are mismatched.

Im saving every war I can to discuss more after the holidays.

Its been like 2 days since the latest matchmaking rework.... Give it a week

[burnt mural]

But there hasn’t been any mismatches under the new system. Al 50 vs 230 is intended. Someone has to get hit hard for the big ALs to play.

[rose heart]

I have my kingdom saving our war screenshots

Mostly for seeing who was matched more than AL mismatches though

[solid glen]

Yeah like on paper AL 0-20 and 50-70 suffer the most given the bracketed matching bins but like thats just the hypothesis. Lets see how often it happens. War screenshots, and lets discuss next week.

[rough topaz]

Once again, I guess I'm not capable of explaining myself. I think ALs are a very bad design when it comes to PvP and that Kingdom Wars aren't even actual PvP as you are just fighting a mob with a player build

The problem is that it doesn't make any sense at all that 1 can't match 51, 49 can't match 51 but 51 can match 230
People saying there's more difference between 1 and 51 than between 51 and 230 are detached from reality

If the objective is making Kingdom Wars fair and less frustrating for everyone, then either create more brackets or if this is not possible due to numbers, just remove ALs
If the objective is for the matchmaking to be as fast as possible, then just remove every bracket or noob protection

In the current system, we are (allegedly) making new players feel better just for 51-75 players to get fucked all the time will high ALs don't get matched to the point they soft quit the game because the system decided another member in their Kingdom that has the same AL is more special and should play every single War

[exotic prism]

I consider my screenshot to be a fair mismatch when there were like 5 higher AL options that got passed over on our end

[queen mist]

I am not really sure about that theory, because sometimes we face kingdoms with higher al players who are not matched, neither our highest Al players either. So.🤔

[solid glen]

Im sure everyone will agree, I definitely do. This has been a discussion for years. Theres nothing new about this view i promise its heard. The reality is the studio faces a difficult decision when it doubled down on ALs for endgame even though they all dislike it for pvp.

We just have to give this a rest for a bit. Bring data next week.

The studio typically responds well to legit data points. Give it a bit more time, bring data. Cant emphasize it enough.

[burnt mural]

Who would he have matched with? Probably next war he gets someone else. It was just Oro’s turn.

But I do agree with s2. I think more data needs to be seen. It hasn’t been enough time. For example if Oro keeps getting matches like that. Or if you keep not getting matched. Those would become more pressing the more it happens.

But wanting change on the second day? Not sure if that’s a good idea. In the end, odie is the one that can see all ALs and if he determined this was the “fairest” way, then we at least owe him to let it play out and see what he saw.

[exotic prism]

Swap oro with LIZ for example. Or he could have matched with me or LOW

Literally in this screenshot there are two people that could have just swapped matches with oro and it would have been "fairer" both ways. And no it's not just Oro's turn, Oro has been getting matched regularly (maybe every war), and I haven't had a match since December 4th

[frail light]

The system simple doesn't differentiate between AL50 and 250. All of them in the same bracket, so probably just a random draw for the side with more players in the respective bracket. It is not part of the matchmaking to match people with minimal AL difference (neither is this necessarily optimal from a strategic viewpoint).

@exotic prism maybe there is some kind of error in the algorithm, but my guess would simply be: bad luck. (as explained above)

[exotic prism]

It's not bad luck. Odie already mentioned something regarding a "shuffle" mechanic that was removed

I am providing data as to why that's a bad thing

[frail light]

Sometimes I would like to see the pseudo code instead of trying to reverse engineering (plus a few hints from Odie) 😅

[royal grail]

If user_name == 'Goody Phil':
skip
Else:

[left dust]

we asked for the code during the Patreon Q&A yesterday and those lines were there

[rough topaz]

Delete GS

[charred furnace]

Shuffle was already reinstated

[burnt mural]

Good job. You won a “perma-lock against AL220+!”

[neat dune]

Show them that summoner is best 🗿

[exotic prism]

Then I guess what I want is the mercy rule 🤷‍♂️ seems like several kingdoms are still seeing the same people get matched over and over again

[wanton gazelle]

Stasis

[modern kayak]

We’re seeing 2 members in the highest bracket get matched 90% of the time. Shouldn’t happen since we have 20 members in that bracket

[long spear]

It’s obvious high AL kingdoms are getting catered to at this point. No offense but they have an expectation of multiple wars in a 24 period. Is that really the goal of matchmaking? I mean if you ascend yourself to the moon do you really expect a matchup in kingdom wars? Flex on your settlements and wait patiently until you have appropriate opponents in a kingdom war.

The pendulum has swung

[rose heart]

That feels like bait

[long spear]

If you’re AL 200+ you’ve done your diligence with many refineries prior to the nerf. No one can argue that. You are among the top of the top so sit around and wait for a fair matchup

[long spear]

How is it bait? The most vocal here are the ones not getting war matches. Which has changed so they can punch down on maybe not 200 AL lower but maybe 100 AL lower

Would you argue that the top kingdoms have an expectation of multiple wars in a day?

[rose heart]

You're basically saying that the people who enjoy playing the game most shouldn't get to participate as much

[hoary swan]

Plenty of people are high AL without tons of refineries but that's besides the point. This change already shifted so matchups are closer is it really a big deal if you fight one of the 10 people over 200 AL once in a while?

[hoary swan]

Yes there was a literal change this year that enabled multiple wars through mercy rule.

If that wasn't the intent why even add it

[long spear]

If you are 200+ you’ve done took advantage of that period of time. I mean there really is no arguing that. Tip of the hat and such but let’s not gloss over that point.

[hoary swan]

I'm 255 and only ever had 10 active refineries

Maybe a few that I would turn on occasionally at work

[long spear]

You’re saying that there are folks who didn’t have 50+ refineries to get them to a 200+ now?

BS

[hoary swan]

Yeah

[long spear]

Ok

I mean easy to say

[hoary swan]

And anguish 2 is way faster system than 1.0 and we have mega boosters now

But really besides the point here

[long spear]

Sure

This is the glib bs that plagues this discussion

[sacred shuttle]

yeah I should follow your advice. also I built 15 refs total

[hoary swan]

I can give you my AL guide but you have to join our kingdom

[long spear]

Well let me take that back. Play 24/7 with multiple wayvessels and you’ll be fine or… you took advantage of a system that was broke to begin with which they changed.

Either way try hard and the vast majority doesn’t play the game this way

[hoary swan]

There are still some systems that are incredibly efficient for AL but we're in this thread instead of the memory event.

[sacred shuttle]

is this just a I'm going to complain about high AL players thread or do you have something productive to offer about matchmaking?

[long spear]

I’m ascending

I mean no disrespect but let’s have a bit of honesty

That’s my problem with high AL complaints about matchmaking

[sacred shuttle]

about what? it seems like the preface of your comments implies that everyone here is being dishonest about their play style to ascend

[long spear]

AL 65 shouldn’t face AL 230

[sacred shuttle]

certainly but there is a very small group of these folks that exist

[dapper knoll]

Why not, I want to kill them 😭

[sacred shuttle]

Odie cant fight fix every single player and kingdom

[sacred shuttle]

yeah like this guy here

[long spear]

I think the comments here reflect a style of play that has nothing to do with the vast majority of the player base. Nothing more nothing less

[sacred shuttle]

not every "lower" AL player wants what you are talking about

some folks actually want to fight higher AL people in match ups

[long spear]

I’d love to know the average AL across accounts

I’d love to know the average log in

You guys fight for your korns and rightfully so but..

[sacred shuttle]

Lets take the discussion in a more concrete way. What do you see as the ideal match making scenario for kingdoms? provide specific details on what you think the best way is to go. e.g something like AL brackets, no brackets, AL66 never matches against something +100 AL over.,

[hoary swan]

Korns are nice but you'll never get anywhere motivated by money you need to be motivated by blood

[long spear]

I’m willing to bet most don’t even log daily

[sacred shuttle]

i also understand that you see mm equal to korn rewards which is fair

[long spear]

Do you think people are motivated by that in an eight bit game where the PvP is basically bs

[long spear]

Rank

Without power

[sacred shuttle]

again this is a generalist opinion you are applying your own perceptions of others in the game and anything contrary is "bs"

this is not productive

so lets focus on details of what would make MM better in your eyes

[dapper knoll]

Definitely

[long spear]

Some of these kingdoms have less than 15 players to manipulate their power

[sacred shuttle]

that the game is 8bit has nothing to do with motivation. You are trying to be reductive in order to demean other's arguments and what they enjoy about the game

[long spear]

Influence is so ethereal

[sacred shuttle]

okay cool what does that mean. can you be specific? What are we talking about here?

[long spear]

I thought we were talking about matchmaking

[sacred shuttle]

we are yes

so stick to the topic

[long spear]

I am totally

There are ways to manipulate matchmaking it’s been going on for years

Let’s keep the roster small to manipulate our power

[sacred shuttle]

what ways to kingdoms manipulate mm?

[long spear]

That’s the most obvious

It backfired with the initial matchmaking changes

[sacred shuttle]

@left dust do you keep the roster small to keep the power level up, or is the power level up because multiple players are AL 100/200+?

[hoary swan]

We have rules for our kingdom but so long as you meet them we let anyone in. We have a decent sized roster for a top kingdom

[long spear]

I’m surprised there isn’t a sense of honesty

[left dust]

like the stat in game?

[long spear]

Yes rules

[sacred shuttle]

what do you mean by honesty?

you keep using this word

[left dust]

or do you just mean raw power

[sacred shuttle]

kingdom power rating

[left dust]

kingdom power rating is the sum of every players (regular) levels

we have 8 level 250 players, so it's 8 * 250 = 2000

[long spear]

Lack of recognition of casual kingdoms and the weird accomplishment of punching down

But before you might get a kingdom outside the 100 rank based on power

[sacred shuttle]

again i dont understand. Are you saying that competitive high rank kingdoms dont "recognize" casual kingdoms?. in what way do you mean recognize?

[inland vector]

Just be aware this isn't really the best place to get into a super lengthy long winded discussion. The longer it goes on for the more it buries a lot of feedback that is intended for Odie to read. 😅

[sacred shuttle]

where is our war orn who can summarize this for odie

[long spear]

This has been going on for days if not more

[inland vector]

Yes as I've seen

[long spear]

And again I do not fault the way high ranked kingdoms operate

[inland vector]

But you've repeated a lot of the same discussion which buries other people's sentiments

[long spear]

They need korns too

[sacred shuttle]

i think ideally Grumbuck has issues with MM. He needs to come up with concrete specific ways he would like MM to change. The general vagueness of this discussion is an attempt to refine those points for a summary

[long spear]

What sentiments

[left dust]

Gonna put slowmode on here so we can slow down the discussion here and think about what we're saying

I appreciate discourse about this, but if we're gonna rehash the same things we did yesterday, this isn't productive - might be time to close the thread

I can understand the frustration of matchmaking being/feeling unfair, but NF can't do anything about fixing this unless we're more concrete with problem areas here

[long spear]

That’s fine. It’s become a space for high end kingdoms to adjust the results from what was. Too many matches not had still has put a spin on the conversation. Honestly it didn’t need changing imo but the absolute non recognition of reality is fake.

I guarantee there are no low end kingdoms that were being “protected” here in this conversation. Can anyone recognize that?

[frail light]

Just a remark: I am quite sure our kingdom could easily get more orns by kicking low level players (which we won't as long as they do their daily fight). While there are many t11 players which would do several fights per day, there are very few lower level players.

So the current system is already highly favoring high level/AL kingdoms (not just since the new mm). I don't want to complain about it, and I know that we still profit more than the average kingdom. But i find it important that the system is not too much balanced around the (more discord active) high AL players/top rank kingdoms.

[coarse path]

So what I'm hearing is that more casual players are still not happy with matchmaking, even though it got tweaked to appease them?

[long spear]

There is a balance for kingdoms just trying to earn more than their spend. I would imagine with the new anguish most high end kingdoms don’t even need the korns. The have no low level players learning the game and most of their members would rather use scrolls for the anguish. So what’s the issue if they don’t have as many matches?

I mean is it earning korns or is it look at me punching down? I guess I don’t really understand the motivation.

[inland vector]

My view point is this. If the kingdom wars ascension level bracket is too strict then it starts to feel like you're being punished for progressing too far. There needs to be enough wiggle room so that higher end kingdoms can still operate with event content and such. I can't even imagine being stuck in a queue so long you can only do 1 or 2 wars daily when you need kingdom resources for raids and such. There will always need to be some disparity, it's more than reasonable not to set too strict of expectation.

[exotic prism]

This is my motivation for having war matches as a non-casual (I guess? I'm not a sweat but I play more than the average)

[long spear]

😆 1 or 2 huh. So then are the korns a huge deal? Or is it just like activity for the members?

[inland vector]

Personally the kingdom I'm in often hits 3-5 daily. But I digress

[long spear]

Ok our kingdom has 26 million korns with 40 members on average with a 150 level requirement. I’m curious what your kingdom is.

[inland vector]

If you want to talk about that more let's do it elsewhere

[hoary swan]

That's more than we have, sounds like you guys are doing alright

[long spear]

This is why I feel this conversation is so disingenuous

[coarse path]

Sounds like you guys barely raid at all

[sacred shuttle]

it sounds like what you want is this: high tier kingdoms already made it so their piece of the pie should be smaller (less wars less rewards). Lower tier kingdoms should get more pie. More wars, more rewards. I think it would be easier to state it in exact terms rather than in such a roundabout way. If this is your opinion then it is okay to express it but I cant figure out any other way to describe your statements.

[frail light]

Related to this: yes, I can understand that individual players want to participate in kwars. But when people were complaining that match making took too long for the kingdom, it should be seen in relative terms.

My impression is rather "now it is only 4 matches per day", while most kingdoms > rank 10 or 20 usually have 1 or 2 wars.

Assuming that fast matchmaking versus "fairer" matches (in terms of more buckets or so) are the thing to balance.

[inland vector]

That's what I'm getting at. Pretty much. Shouldn't penalize kingdoms for working hard.

[long spear]

Well our ascended player base has more interest in scrolls for anguish unless someone need a mat for ascension.

[hoary swan]

So is the issue kingdom wars? Fun factor? Or ranking? In your opinion

[long spear]

No. I want it how it was.

[hoary swan]

As in earlier this week or before any of the matchmaking changes?

[long spear]

Before any of the changes. Matches were spread out to where it didn’t really matter. Our rank would fluctuate and we’d face better kingdoms as we rose but when we lost we’d face the bottom 100. It worked just fine.

[frail light]

Don't get me wrong, we are still getting enough korns for progression. But it is much easier to get many korns if you don't push low level players. I think there are just different ways what it is that makes a kingdom "active".
I can live with the current system, but I will very likely stay just below AL50 to accelerate our kwars (and probably push other classes to 49, too).
If there would be another bucket above 50, then I wouldn't do that. But then some people will complain that they have only 4(?) kwars per day.

[left dust]

YMMV, but those changes were made because this problem existed to a much higher degree before this, and were informed by data from every kingdom that NF collected

[long spear]

I would gather, like we do, there is an educational aspect to how to be a kingdom member and if possible how to help them move up and learn. I think this is the aspect the top end exclusive kingdoms do not have to deal with.

[inland vector]

Just remember that you are one voice. Odie is operating off of many.

[left dust]

aye, experiences of one kingdom are not representative of all kingdoms

it's important to know that you're experiencing these issues, but let's not pretend that it's "every kingdom" and "no kingdom" has seen benefit from these changes

[long spear]

After tracking wars for years now I do not believe that lower kingdoms outside of the top 50 face this disparity on a regular basis. Sure occasionally but wtf do you expect? Get a match that is embarrassing. Learn. I don’t know but the old system was just fine.

[frail light]

I mean, we are usually top 20, sometimes top 10, so I guess the "problem" of less than 2 kwars a day is only existent for 10 kingdoms max. Just trying to give some reference point here.

[inland vector]

Let other users speak for themselves. Otherwise you are just speculating via your own opinion. 😅

[long spear]

That voice has become very one sided. Again I’ve tracked it for years. You obviously have a “better” perspective I’m not getting in your way but you feel it necessary to stamp my perspective down.

[long spear]

It’s amazing how top 50 kingdoms have the most to say on the topic…

[sacred shuttle]

your kingdom is currently rank 40. you have a lot to say on the topic... anyways TLDR: you prefer the the system before the most recent changes yes?

[long spear]

Exactly but I’m trying to be level about the entirety of the issue.

[inland vector]

Yeah so, you made your point. Move on. Otherwise it's just burying other people's feedback.

[long spear]

You can’t even label yourself in a manner that’s consistent with your ingame experience. I’m sure it’s funny for you and from the context I’d imagine you’re in a top kingdom.

[coarse path]

I'm still not sure what you're complaining about

[long spear]

Yeah? What other feedback? Like what has been said that has been buried? You seem to know.

[long spear]

Was I complaining or just discussing?

[exotic prism]

Same tbh. Very hard to parse what is even being discussed beyond "I don't like the changes"

[long spear]

Ok without transparency it’s easy to dismiss