2025 H2 Gilgamesh Discussion

[blazing tendon]

Also need to pick up kids, and actually move on to non-Orna anxiety, so if I know what data to grab, I'll do my best to start farming it tonight if I can find people (if people are required 🙂 )

[empty meteor]

300 was really just to show what the miss rate of a 1200 dex difference would be to the % - i don't think we need 300 data points for everything

w/l relies on many more variables then just hit rate of spiked shield

[empty meteor]

family first - lots of time next week to chat about this

[blazing tendon]

While yes, if you (Deservedly so) take a break the weekend, I need to know what data to farm!

Otherwise my anxiety will end up making me gloomposting and you and Dangy will have to chastise me again So lets put that anxiety to good use in the beta shall we?!?

[fathom vortex]

"I still have no idea how they exist" what's that even supposed to mean? And BP isn't FMC.

[blazing tendon]

Whoops THAT can be taken out of context.

To clarify and I will edit: I know nothing a out GS class, I don't know how they damage, I don't know how they defend, I don't know about their experiences and struggles.

So more so saying I can't speak to them. And hoping the best for GS this patch too, cause I hear y'all struggle minus endless.

Updated to clarify "I have no idea how they do their thing or go about their thing
Apologies for potentially having the poor GS's take out some pitchforks. You can put em back now

[fathom vortex]

GSH builds accuracy to be able to hit something with pacts, either Nolan's for 40% or Ranger for the 30%

Since dex doesn't cut it, and you also need as much mag as possible, so if you go for for example pumpkinless, in most cases you are still missing while also losing a ton of damage

[empty meteor]

re: Magic Chakram -

Magic Chakram: 1.2 (m1) * 6 (hits) * 0.625 (m2) * 1.1 (crit) * 0.92 (miss chance) = 4.554x damage
Realm Strikes II: 1.0 (m1) * 4 (hits) * 1.1 (m2) * 1.2 (crit) * 0.9 (miss chance) = 4.752x damage

[blazing tendon]

Spiked shield with old FMC? Numbers is my language! I know the m1 is higher for sure

[empty meteor]

i'm saying that if Magic Chakram is being brought up as an edge over Gilga, Realm Strikes II is still better, pound for pound

(example needs equal magic and attack stats)

[blazing tendon]

Oh. Ooohhhh saying as on we can use that.

Gotcha, well. If somehow as gilga you can get enough attack for the m1 portion 😅

[empty meteor]

you've got BoF for that 🙂

and Frenzy

[blazing tendon]

Yes.... Also... Just a yes/no.... Don't suppose you saw that frenzy free turn on base (or gilga's in general) could help in PvP

[rare oar]

There’s still another turn 1 outlier that can’t miss, but this isn’t the thread for that 😅

[blazing tendon]

Legit coming up short? Which is that?

[rare oar]

Bloodray

I know you mentioned it, was more in response to Odie using only Chakram and RS2 in his comment 😅

[empty meteor]

yeah, enough chatter on that one

[sterile monolith]

My biggest issue with building into + Accuracy as a Non Ursa Gilga is...there just aren't a lot of options.
You got Ranger Spec (obvious spec trade off issues)
You got amities (obvious painful amity trade off issues)
You got Dex (no matter how much dex we build one of the best pvp defense classes in the game can outdex us without even blinking)
There are only a handful of gear items for warrior t10 that give accuracy and most of them aren't very compatible with SS builds.

Overall in PVE I don't think it's going to be a huge deal. For PVP though I think it's going to be rough. I'm not 100% sold we won't need some minor gear revisions to add at least some accuracy bonus to quite a few wardy type pieces. However doing that adds it to Beo and Deity too, so something class based would limit any such bonus to just Gilga.

I've been running all day and just sat down, I'll try to set up a few more settlement fights with my mirror today

[pine mirage]

I mean, the augment that gives 10 accuracy and 230 dex is pretty good

[round yew]

Yeah this i agree with. All gear should come with tradeoffs though whatever comes of it. Pieces with less ward or defenses can have higher dex type of thing if we are looking to add options for warrior

[sterile monolith]

Here is My pretty unoptimized Dorado build taking settlements from my Herc build. That Dorado is even in Conqueror spec.

Now here is my Herc trying to take them back, he went 2 for 4, where the Dorado went 4/4

I am at 2/6 now

4/8 now but I never healed health back between bouts

Now Dorado taking them back with a little higher damage build, went only 3/4 that time

And picked up the one I missed easily on the next attempt

This video is Ranger, went 4/4 retaking them, but the Dorado is in a dex/Squishy build

[solid nest]

Yea i agree with this assessment completely. Only gear that really gives the dex is swash gear that makes you need to build your tank squishy which thematically painful to me XD pve tho... I use things like ward of light 3 and havent had much issue and it is dex based... so no real issues.

Biggest thing is that it makes dorito and deity better with ss3 than gilgy FMC is removed with nothing to boost it for gilgy

[sterile monolith]

Tried taking Dorado up against the tankiest Herc build I can make on Beta without mammoth. Went 2/4

[solid nest]

Ranger is a good way to deal with it. Great spec but that would limit options so I do not generally like referring to a spec as a solution to major issues.

[sterile monolith]

I'm not trying a lot of skill variety in each instance though, just mashing SS with both classes

[solid nest]

Yea thank you going to look through it all a bit more still reading up on your stuff. Thank you for posting all this 🙂

[sterile monolith]

Anyway just trying to give some comparitive varieties, right now so far at least Dorado seems to have the clear advantage in settlement battles because it has more options for builds

And my Dorado gearing is waaaay more limited

[solid nest]

I think Homing shield is a good option, or even that gilgy scales ss skills accuracy with something else? Idk.

[solid nest]

Yea dorado passive does say it gives accuracy and dodge boost, which means they basically will be at their max dodge and have minimum miss chance and gilgy will be less accurate with it making them worse... tho with more damage and collateral. Deity... dex is high haha

New augment does help, but would like that to only be something thay you only need 1-2 of at most. Not 4

[sterile monolith]

I'm done flooding the channel for a bit but people said they wanted some tests, so...I tried to oblige as best I can with what I have available on Beta

[solid nest]

I do think dorito passive being invalidated by FMC tho in live is terrible too

[solid nest]

No this is great. Thank you for the time and effort

And the gilgy build is significantly better than the dorado one too

Gilgy kinda needs augments and attack on gear to scale the ss damage as well... and would have to drop a lot of attack to get that much accuracy. If 1-2 augments need to be swapped for accuracy ones, would still be painful but it would be manageable. Especially since gilgy does have a lot of damage currently

Biggest thing is that a lot of gilgy damage is already m2 and I get a lot of my base stats to deal with defense from my augments

[solid nest]

You using selene hands for gilgy? How much damage do you lose vs moderate defense as non-swash gilg herc? If you use the accuracy augments

And how many before you hit consistently vs dorito?

[sterile monolith]

I have mainly been using FGS optimized for max CD, I only use Selene's Hands if I positively have to have the extra attack for pen

[solid nest]

Ah. I have been using tree nuts for collateral chance and selene hands for m1 and damage. So my low quality (mostly) selene hands in my axe give me around 5.5k attack at AL 56

So you mostly would be losing ward and such swapping to collateral chance adorns on armor and tons of collateral damage

That does explain why your initial hit at much higher AL is similar to mine tho. Your collateral is gonna hit like a truck

[sterile monolith]

I am using Tree Nuts right now as I don't have any Jewels of Pale on Beta

On the FGS I am using Sand Mortars

[solid nest]

For current effect of defense

This is the gear and stats.

The dorito is BoF so no defense really and that is my defense in stat block of 9k

So currently damage is high but with needed m1 nerf on ss3 and if I had to give up selene hands it would become a struggle. Especially if it was a lot of them

This is from live and ill test the diff in beta once I get the mirror for beta 🙂

Missed posting in that thread on initial batch! XD

[round yew]

Dorito BoF dies to a flick of an RS2 at least

[solid nest]

True lol. But only gursa really uses that well. Changing builds a little based on the enemy is cool, just not like crazy amounts of changes and not like changing spec and class for it

[round yew]

You dont need much to make rs2 delete anyone in BoF spec

Gilga kills em, gursa vaporizes them

[solid nest]

I mean you have to spec into full crit then instead of what the class is good for

[round yew]

Cool so you get variety

[solid nest]

Main reason people dont use it as gilgy currently is because only gursa uses it well

[solid nest]

I mean anyone can build to use any attack, doesn't mean it is a good option other than for memes tho. Seen heretics use ss3 but they did less than half of just using a spell and ignoring the selene hands and hybrid amity

[round yew]

Just saying - and dorado loses a good amount of damage outside of BoF fwiw. Gotta put context to the boogeyman that is dex and dorado in the wake of the death of flat miss ss3

[solid nest]

Oh no I dont want dorito to be invalidated by FMC. I hated that it countered them so hard. Just dont particularly want deity (mainly) and a lot of rs to just counter gilgy harder by missing too much

I dont want FMC to stay. It was too op. Some sort of bonus that allows gilgy to hit with it better would be cool though. Both for pvp and endless. If anyone isnt swapping to a diff class like that 0 AL dara for endless XD. I want dorito to require some accuracy to face if you want to hit them all the time

Dorado does have other options for damage like oracle too. BoF has rend/epee so that is the biggest way to counter high def and 60% attack.... their 50% dodge does allow them to be decently tanky while doing it too. But it is feasible to rs2 or sortie 2 or strike 3 as dorito without BoF. The class does lose damage vs the others in exchange for being tankier from 50% dodge and accuracy from their passive. Just raw nuke damage is base rs still but uh... cant take a hit XD oracle and duelist dorado are also great if you want to use higher defense.

Just most people prefer BoF for high attack to beat defense and the dodge is usually pretty reliable. With high hp. Ss3 was the main thing invalidating the defenses with the FMC.

But if gilgy got a 20-30% accuracy on ss3 that still leaves dorado with 20-30% dodge for example. Or if they scaled in some way (idk how much would make it fair if it was ward or something else?) For that one attack instead of using their dex, dorito would have their 50% but deity wouldnt be dodging all gilgy attacks at least.

If I need a second axe with accuracy or different armor with a little for dorito fights that is fine. I usually swap up a bit depending on who I fight anyways. Gs and beoA are main ones who use assassin so I use status res more on them usually, crit beoH gonna one shot me so parapet, gilgy gonna ss3 so ecto and res to enemy faction ele, etc

[sterile monolith]

fwiw I think 20-30% accuracy would be way too much

No more than 10% from what I am seeign so far

[solid nest]

20% would still put gilgy missing 20% of the time against almost anyone

A lot of the changes to ss3 was to make it a gilgy move again and this goes in the other direction.

[spark sandal]

They can go ranger spec if they are fighting a dorado its already in the game

[solid nest]

Using a spec as the solution... is meh. But if only needing it for 1 enemy that is fine. Also have the augments. Just dont want to make it be... you need ranger spec all the time now because everyone has max dodge vs low dex gilgy. Except beo. Beo in the dex boat with us

Even with 20% accuracy ranger would be needed to be back at current miss chance vs dorado so there is that

Or would need 2 augments for full effect or 3 for a little loss on last one but matching current miss chance

Dorado currently doesnt dodge vs ss3 and I dont want that to stay... kinda invalidates their dodge passive too much

So ranger is currently useless for gilgy pretty much in live

Something like this would make it useful still but not ruin gilgy on NEEDING it all the time ya know? Exact numbers devs im sure will work out better though if it is too much or not

Even if it just scaled accuracy diff would still be great even if it doesn give flat bonus to accuracy for gilgy

[sterile monolith]

To me it's a bit of a fine line. Right now you can build High Dex and High attack easily with the gear choices available and win X% of all your fights. You don't need defense if you don't get hit. Then your attack is enough to just clap them on your turn.

So if a Gilga is attacking you in beta right right now, all you have to do is decide between 2 defense strategies. Either you outdex them and chew their face off. If they are still getting through more often than you think they should then they are runnign ranger and you just throw on the tanky gear and destroy their damage cause they aren't in BoF.

So then it's literally just swap spec, swap spec, swap spec, back and forth

[solid nest]

Yea it is a fine line. Right now it is too strong but dont want to make it too weak XD

[sterile monolith]

I don't think Ultima gilgy is viable in pvp anymore, though it was sort of a funny ninja tactic back in the day.

[solid nest]

I dont run BoF since it just feels thematically wrong lol

Squishy warrior class? Ew XD

Now ranger is a good spec tho for gilgy with hp and attack bonus dont get me wrong. But would like for it to be an option not a requirement. Ill have to test fully when I have the mirror so I can get an exact comparison

Wont ruin the class really but... it would limit things like oracle and cataphract gilgy

If we also had the ability to swap without worrying about losing a war fight because we swapped back to oracle or something else would also be nice. So dont end up missing and auto losing a war because you did a raid or dungeon and swapped specs to do it better. Currently it isnt a huge loss if you are a diff spec unless ya run BoF... makes ya not optimal for your pvp build but nothing crazy like losing 30% accuracy in pvp because you wanted to do something on the game.

[sterile monolith]

Join a pacifist kingdom, you never lose war fights then

[solid nest]

? Balancing pvp isn't done by just not playing. That is like telling someone to just stop playing if something isnt balanced in general

Just saying that requiring camping a spec reduces war capability as is if you swap for other content or you end up using a spec that isnt good in pve and losing the only thing that makes you viable in pvp. Which is why Reliance on a spec to balance a class in my opinion isnt a very good option.

Currently you lose some if you are caught on diff spec but not a ton. I lose some collateral damage for me and brings me a small chance to not get the collateral hit if I swap to raider or something for raids. Weaker yea but not catastrophically so

[sterile monolith]

Yeah I know, a lot of people take wars seriously enough that they won't play just because they might get attacked and lose. But what I said is true. If you are in a pacifist kingdom, you never have to worry about that 😉

[solid nest]

Well I want to get the k. Orns for my people 🫡 I would like to have a decent fight for the defense! Haha

[bronze maple]

Every single time I swap class or spec I get rekt here in Edinburgh. You can bet that as soon as I swap in the next 15/20 min there are one of those guys waiting for it to take my areas. It’s just crazy… it prevents me from actually doing content as much as I want because I really HATE losing hard earned areas for a stupid dungeon. That’s really true. I was complaining about it no later than last week in my kingdom

But also the fact there is 99% of chance you will get one shot anyway because the only thing that matters is your overall health on turn 1.. is another PvP issue… if you have less than 80k you’re a goner turn 1 in most cases.. which completely prevents your from having any real way to defend except stacking HP…. And that’s it. Pray for your mammoth do divine bastion turn 2 every turn 🤣

[bronze maple]

…..

Maybe is it time to ask if we will ever have specific gear for specific classes again… that “maybe” could solve some issues so other classes can not take advantage of a “fix” done on another class. For example ward on orns gear for gilga specific… Dex added on gilga so that RS and deity/bro can’t use it.

Same with spells.. maybe can we get some new “ward oriented” viable spells only for the tank class…

Just asking, don’t burn the messenger.

[sterile monolith]

Couple horde anguish 1, which have dex scaling, i do get clapped in one by a zerk imm lord. I guess cd decided to hit the other one rather than finish him off. But i didnt miss any that i noticed. I do have to be BoF pumpkinless and beg y hat though. So my dex is about as juiced as it gets.

[blazing tendon]

Not demanding cause I know I can do the same, but just caught up in stuff that I can't test at the moment: Maybe try it out with a "regular" set. I want someone with lower AL to see how it feels without the dex juiciung. Because in fariness, pumpkinless gear is once a year, making it one of the harder to get for new entries into Gilga. And it would be nice to have some new enthusistic blood join us.

But if you can't get to it I should be able to test some more tomorrow hopefully

[sterile monolith]

What do you mean specifically? Like a noobie build, 2h doing raids? Cause new player to t10 arent going to be doing high contest settlements for a long while anyway. Or other high end stuff where dex matters a ton.

From my testung so far, the new gilga experience for dungeons and raids is going to be much better

[whole prism]

I'm a low AL willing to help

Just tell me what I have to do

[sterile monolith]

Do you have a mirror on beta?

[whole prism]

Yep

[sterile monolith]

So just go do content you usually do, try some different builds, see how it feels

Feel free to share videos, screenshots, data or even just your feelings

[whole prism]

Specificaly on herc or all 3(base, herc & ursa)?

[sterile monolith]

All 3 is good. Though I 'think' DD is most concerned with SS viability in pvp situations. I am waiting for clarification from him though.

That reminds me I have an Ursa build, i need to try though.

[whole prism]

So first fight I already started missing

[sterile monolith]

Nevermind, can't try the Ursa build I want because I am not going to farm Celestial adorns on Beta :p

[blazing tendon]

I am actually referring to PvE on dungeons and accuracy of spiked shield/chained shield, So as long as @sterile monolith or @whole prism can make a dungeon build for CS and see how accurate/inaccurate it all is within pumkpinless gear, was more so what I was going for

[whole prism]

I can make a CS build on base/herc but I don't have any good pumpkinless sadly

[blazing tendon]

Herc or base. Either one could work, because the accuracy should be the same. more of the accuracy for lower level I am trying to test.

While I am AL 132, I still only consider myself midlevel for stuff. Only around anguish 20, I don't go super hardcore into it. Advance mode we have Geppu testing, so having lower AL's and maybe not all ornate and gear from every event etc would be fantastic to get your testring, results, and feedback.

Gilga's are notorious for giving very little feedback, so having someone who is willing to speak to it is very appreciated. It's also why I somewhat grumpily come down on other classes who come in then shit on peoples opinions or feelings because the Gilga's are quiet enough as it is without others coming to push their agenda.

So for youself or any other lrurking Gilga, feel free to test and DM me with your results. I will ensure your thoughts/opinions get to the ORN. I already have included others in my summary writeup I did before and is pinned, and will continue to do so such that even the smallest voice can be heard over the crowd. If you are a Gilga, I got you ❤️

[eternal temple]

I'm Gilga AL60 and I’m trying to test it, but for some reason my beta stopped working and it won’t get past the “connecting to server” screen. If it starts working again (I’ve already tried several things, so if anyone knows something that could help, please tell me), I can test it and share the results here.

[gaunt nova]

I've had this happen when I select certain accounts sometimes. If you uninstall and reinstall it usually works

[eternal temple]

I’ve already tried uninstalling it several times, but the problem is still there. As soon as it starts working again (if it ever does), I’ll run the tests and share them here.

[whole prism]

So after testing unthemeds with both gherc and base

Base: faster due to siphon ward which means you stall alot less for diffuse/pots but less damage than herc

Herc: higher damage which makes killing the tonky boys easier but overall slower due to needing to occasionaly stall for mana

Both didn't have many misses

Build and stats on both (same build on both)

[blazing tendon]

I will assume "Unthemeds" is supposed to be.... spiked shield? Other than that fair.

Did you count or see how much was missing?

[sterile monolith]

So just like a non anguish horde boss build with Cata spec or something?

With no AL's?

I mean personally I'd probably run a swansong and not CS for unanguished hordes

[whole prism]

By Unthemeds I mean dungoens you can set to hard/boss freely. It's a term used in aethric

This is an unthemed for us :p

[sterile monolith]

There's a Cata CS build with no CD adorns and a whopping 231 Dex

I did lose to the Zerk Imm Lord but I didn't try to stun or anything

Otherwise I didn't seem plagued by misses

[whole prism]

Yeah PvE is completely fine after FMC removal. Just gotta build for dex for PvP. we also don't have much dex warrior stuff and both the good ones (appolyon and pumpkinless) rotate once per year only iirc

[sterile monolith]

My biggest concern with "building dex for pvp" is that no matter how much Dex we build we'll always be at a pretty hard deficit vs some classes and still aren't guaranteed hits. Which makes us reliant on ranger which leads to the dilemma I highlighted earlier, which is there are two ways to defend against Gilga. If one isn't working, do the other. One of the two will work.

I don't think the boost needs to be much, I don't think nearly guaranteed hits should be possible without ranger

But I do think if we build as Dexy as we possibly go we should be able to get to a 75%ish percent hit rate vs a dexed out Dorado. And if we want that last bit for an almost guaranteed hit, then we need to go Ranger to get that 30% boost

Cause going as Dexy as you can possibly build and still whiffing all the time is not fun

[abstract flicker]

I am not sure whether you would still have enough attack, but have you tried cele axe with 2x or 3x Feet of Mnemosyne? Each adorn gives 10% accuracy and 230 dex, so with 3 adorns you should have guaranteed 90%+ hit chance

[whole prism]

Well homing shield passive returning is still an option. And it won't benefit the Beos or Deities at all in any way.

Maybe tweak it a bit, instead of 5% accruacy it could become like 10%

Or give base Gilgamesh "Homing shield II" for 10% accruacy and GHerc "Homing shield I" for 5%

That way base can be used for PvP

[blazing tendon]

You stated the exact issue there. The only attack or boost we get really tends to be around weapons + swash. So taking 3 of our celestial adorns will put the damage to wet noodle levels.

As Strahd said, even though we have ahem kind guests coming in stating that we "just need to build for accuracy" it's hard to take that seriously when everyone else gets the chance to hit AND have ways to deal damage, but we are straight up OR.

[abstract flicker]

It's a long time ago that I was Gilga, so I cannot contribute much. But my impression was, that the issue is very similar for BeoH (my main), which has only +100 dex compared to Gilga(H). And I will probably try pumpkinless plus 2x Feet of Mnemosyne, so I can use at least 3 hands of selene. So I thought this could be an option for Gilga, too 🤷

[blazing tendon]

That is a very fair assessment but the crux of the difference comes to our toolkits.

I would be willing to guess you are probably using lute as your celestial. Remember that all that magic that goes in then pumps up your attack. Same for the hands of Selene adding in (which for gilga hands of Selene tend to be some of the only magic sources with a crazy low base stat in it to boot.)

As well the 20% boost while not huge and I ain't gonna hang my hat on it, it still helps.

In comparison our toolkit is a 1.5 ward when fully charged (which isn't t1) and if we get hit that bonus is all gone, or a 1.6 from herc which now I think starts around 1.3 and 70% ward (remember that gilgas start without full ward, which is also an innate disadvantage in PvP) then there is frenzy, which yeah will boost attack and CD, but you can't activate unless you are 3 turns in, and sacrifice a turn to activate

So there are similar struggles I agree, but due to the very limited range of our toolkit, combine with Bose base and herc being limited to warrior gear only (you can build into and Thief of mage if you want to squeeze out something from those gear for a viable solution) the build variety and us vei g able to come up with solutions is extremely narrow.

It's that extreme narrow that we are referring to, in addition to the above issue of the not having enough attack. Does that make sense?

That being said, I appreciate you mentioning that, because I got some more event towers to run to boost what I have...

[sterile monolith]

I think what DD is trying to say is: It's not that there aren't ways to mitigate. It's that we start in such a hole to begin with that we require a slightly larger sacrifice in something else to reach a baseline.

I really don't think the number is that large though, a small tweak would really do it imo

And for the record, I thought adding FMC to SS to begin with was not the best idea as I thought it would become a crutch which didn't really fix the base issue. Which imo is exactly what happened, only just to more classes than Gilga 😄

[abstract flicker]

I didn't mean that to be a direct comparison - I know that BeoH is great for turn 1 damage. And yes, I am using the lute for BeoH. But with the m1 nerf of SS3, the outcome is not totally clear for me. I can only test very limited gear in the beta, as most adorns were in my keep, which is not transferred for the mirror:

• With my AL10 GilgaH, 3x hands of selene (and 2 empty slots to simulate 2x Feet of Mnemosyne as these are not increasing attack) plus 1x pumpkinless, I hit the cactus with around 110k, which seems still ok for my AL10 Gilga/cata spec?
• For comparison: With my AL47 BeoH/oracle and a lute (also with 3x hands of selene and 1x pumpkinless), I hit the cactus with around 150k. So the numbers seem to be quite similar if you account for AL difference (150/147x110=118).

2nd try with only 2 hands of selene: 100k with GilgaH, 135k BeoH (now both oracle, but 1x ward start vs 15% hybrid damage, as Gilga doesn't need ward start). With 135/147x110 = 101k, the total turn 1 damage would almost be identically. Of course BeoH still has 100 more dex, which means around 3% higher accuracy.

[blazing tendon]

As I understand the m1 nerf was revoked? is it reastablished again?

[abstract flicker]

oh, it don't know. was it? but now as you say it: I think it was rather reduced, not cancelled 🤷

[blazing tendon]

Also for some of your math on the difference what are you trying to do with the 135/147?

If you are trying to adjust for AL levels you are better doing a comparison of the base without. therefore foir your 2nd example

GilgaH = 110k/1.1 = 100k
BeoH = 150k/1.47 = 102k

So math is still similar. But as you pointed out, slightly more dex, and 3% accuracy in terms of PvP is huge.

As well this is training cactus, and numbers in PvP unfortunately won't be quite so straightforward, but for the sake of having a base to work with, its the best we can do

But the main thing for the cactus comment: It reality and practical use, the opponent will have varying defenses. And gilgaH ward power is now 100% which is entirely M2. Whereas the same numbers you are getting with BeoH comes from M1 bonuses.

So now stack that against a deity or RS which got a bunch of defense in there, and that tiny gap of damage suddenly widens greatly

And that is what I have been seeing reflected in testing. When I was going against Sirith in our testing (now that was Dursa) my SS was landing for 97k first shot, and 80k and below for subsequent.

His would be between 112k to 130k.

So a bit more of a pratical example of the m1 issue.

But Odie also already said that we have BoF (Spec) for it (which rules out ranger for accuracy) and mentioned Frenzy, which not trying to disrespect Odie, is not a sensible solution for PvP given you need turn 3 to activate, and then sacrifice a turn to do so. So neither helps in this scenario, nor with practical defense

So I am hoping I didn't misinterpret it as a "Odie sees that this isn't actually a problem and everything is fine" And hopefully this data will help show. But at the end of the day I can only pray, and then wait til next H2 patch..

[abstract flicker]

Ah, yes, I totally forgot that the bonus for Gilga is m2. So I agree, for high def, BeoH would have the higher damage (to be honest: I was quite surprised to see that the damage is similar; BeoH is usually very good for turn 1, but other classes catch up after some turns - even if this is most of the time not relevant for PvP).

[rare oar]

After testing the changes in the beta, I’m afraid gilga may end up being pigeonholed into BoF. SS was pretty easy to drastically reduce by stacking defense. Don’t have a BeoH mirror that can test, but I’m pretty sure gilga isn’t the best SS user atm purely due to lack of attack

[sterile monolith]

A lack of most things (when it comes to stats anyway)

[rare oar]

Which has issues in and of itself. If you’re going BoF you’re low on dex, so stacking dex actually becomes irrelevant on defense since your opponents can just click Chakram or RS2 (still don’t know why both the FMC skills target defense, but oh well)

[blazing tendon]

Look on the bright side, the flood of toxic people HoC'ing to gilga that we were threatened with cause we were gonna be so OP won't ever happen now! So we have that! We can celebrate with the dozens of us! dozens I say! (I hope?)

That being said, sarcasm aside, now that the numbers have reduced again, maybe a potential solution would be to make ward power affect m1 not m2....

If that happened we may need tweaks so it doesn't get too crazy, but other than SGS I think the only ward power is on the gilga classes. So could be a solution?

[whole prism]

Ah yes. The 14(?) still standing dozen of Gilgamesh's can celebrate nobody hoc'ing to us!

[whole prism]

Don't forget the 5% ward power from the amity :p

Which really... 5% is barely anything and Beos/deities can still take advantage of it

[bronze maple]

You guys are completely delusional. I HoC for the pleasure of suffering. Wait for me guys 🫠🥹🤣

[solid nest]

That gear makes you extremely squishy and likely to die when you get hit sadly 🙁

But accuracy in pve on 2.0 anguish wont be the issue. 1.0 it will matter but meh in pve. Pvp is where it will be a massive nerf. (And endless but uh... who uses gilg in endless? 0 AL dara gets more orns from endless)

Well at least accuracy issues in 2.0 arent dex based and wouldnt change i should say. Accuracy maluses do get ya there a bit XD

[bronze maple]

Well that’s my point above that nobody decided to pick up… if only we had gilga gear to farm etc etc

[solid nest]

Yea we dont. I swap to heretic corvus or dara for endless. Gilgy just doesnt do well. Only perk is if you go full tank gear you can hit accurately at high floors

If it loses that then gilgy cant even do depth runs without orn gear well really. But meh orns are easy with little investment in other classes so it hasnt been a huge issue to me, but I dont really run often so my opinion doesnt matter too much for it.

[bronze maple]

My problem with those beta discussions is that we « test the numbers » ok… what about the philosophy, what about everything else around it. We just dismiss it saying it is not relevant « for this discussion » but on the contrary I believe it is extremely relevant. Like the point made many times here that BoF shouldn’t be a solution to a flawed design

[solid nest]

So people who want to use gilgy in endless and have lots of ALs, it would be nice to have that little viability kept at least. But pvp is my main concern

[bronze maple]

Anyway. I know, I know I’m out. It’s fiiiine. 🤣

[solid nest]

Yea no I agree with you there. Also ranger spec isnt a solution to a problem either.

Tank class has to build squishy or camp a spec... just feels wrong.

[bronze maple]

I’ve been saying this new SS design forcing you to play swash as gilga is a big mistake and completely crush gilga identity. I’ve been told to be quiet many times… so here we are.

[solid nest]

Like it is good dont get me wrong

[sterile monolith]

Well you aren't doing Anguish 1 (50) without BoF, you'll just hit for 0. Unless maybe you are AL 200+ or something

[solid nest]

Ranger gilgy is strong

[solid nest]

Hm? How is that? I didnt get 0ed as dursa and I had less attack than I do now with gilgy. Higher m1 on the stronger attacks now

And was only AL 20 in dursa

I didnt even have BoF spec at the time and ran DoF

I get over 9k attack as gilgy atm AL 57 now

Like BoF is good, not saying it isnt. Just if ya get hit... physical attacks tend to have high m2 low m1

[sterile monolith]

I don't know at what time period you are talking about. But in Beta right now if you can run Anguish 50 on V1 as a Gilga, and not be in BoF spec, show me your build.

[solid nest]

So you get nuked without defense but not hit very hard if you do have it.

[solid nest]

Was talking about all the way up until 2.0 release when I swapped. Ss skills (other than ss1) have higher m1 now than they did

[quaint mural]

Astronaut meme. This is my status quo

[solid nest]

On dursa. Adorns were all JoC. Good gear has come out for gilgy now that helps match while having defense.

[sterile monolith]

I don't give a rats arse about what was in the past or DUrsa

[solid nest]

I have more attack on my gilgy than this does

Which means still wouldnt be 0ed

[sterile monolith]

I am saying if you can make a Gilga build in beta right now that can run Anguish V1 at 50 Anguish, and not be in BoF, show me your build.

[solid nest]

? Im not on v1. Lol but this was when the m1 was lower than current beta.

[sterile monolith]

Do you know what the M1 is now then?

[solid nest]

Still higher than old one.

Odie said he scaled back the nerf some so isnt 25% reduced anymore.

Previous buff to m1 made it several times higher but limited ward used

[sterile monolith]

Alright, I am on V1, tell me what gear I should be using in your build

[solid nest]

Try using hype gear. You can get it right now. Carl rings or can go for higher attack ones. Selene hands in a celestial axe. SGS offhand is great but it is m2 so unfortunately the big advantage i have is an event staff offhand that is hard to get with a lot of attack/mag. 200% but if you have one, use it

Against high def enemies with selene hands purly staff beats spiked greatshield

Matches damage vs low defense

My axe isnt that impressive either

Hard to do quick dungeons as gilgy tho since you cant sweep entire floor easily like temptest shield or despair. Can do gursa envy or dragon tail sweep though. But doesnt beat rs corvus doing the same or dorito.

[sterile monolith]

So what are you using for ward regen?

[solid nest]

Or yel staff dara, despair dara, heretic corvus.

[solid nest]

Pet and base regen do well. In beta need to worry about miss chance tho sadly because of dex :/ can use ward of light 3 in a pinch.

Golem or stone warg do great

Can also do windtamer boots for extra pet act while still having good offense stats and ward

Offsets the 10% loss of pet act from selene hands almost

Gursa also has decent dex too so could just 2h clear with it

[gaunt nova]

Since tank builds seem to be affected most and imo they were already lower performing, would it make sense to nudge up the ward to damage contribution for Gilgamesh?

[sterile monolith]

I just tried a tank build as DoF, I had to use Selene's hands to be able to do any damage, not enough ward regen, died on floor 8

[solid nest]

? Use a ward regen pet and ward of light 3 if it isnt doing its job of regen. And 2.0 can give ya more regen if ya swap :p but I had enough in 1.0 easily

[sterile monolith]

And I don't have enough skill slots to be able to buff my offenses and my defenses, unlike deity Ursa which has 20

[solid nest]

How is the damage for gilgy in pvp in beta atm? With having to possibly lose selene hands for accuracy augments

[solid nest]

Really? My gilg herc does. Barely but still

Dont have extra slots for optional use things thi

[sterile monolith]

Herc has 1 more slot than base for some strange reason

[gaunt nova]

I dunno I don't play tank hybrid, but across the board my damages was down a few % in pvp I think

[solid nest]

I am worried that if we boost damage on ss skills for gilgy for m1 at least in pvp that it will keep it op. So maybe one for pve only? Idk. But all depends on how much damage is lost for accuracy

[sterile monolith]

Anyway, if it was feasible, which I highly doubt. It's not going to be anywhere near the success rate of BoF

[gaunt nova]

Imo if the counter is dodging it now its okay if it kills you when it hits

[solid nest]

Yea true

[solid nest]

I mean everyone who plays BoF i always see them get nuked when they get hit. And whenever I have played it. 2.0 does deal more m2 damage scaling than 1.0 tho too

[sterile monolith]

I'm gettin nuked when I get hit anyway

[blazing tendon]

I think I recieved something similar in the commonet of "you have BoF and Frenzy for m1" which Frenzy isn't viable for

1. Towers
2. PvP
3. Dungeons

So.... it helps with raids

Don't get me wrong, I love it helping with raids... but the reality of having to give Gilga a new skill, and now Pump it up a bunch to try and even out how hard we are hit with the new SS formula... kind of indicates a deeper issue and problem (aka lack of attack and m1 availability) But I guess as you said this is all in the <<Not part of this discussion>> thoughtline

And for the love of god, will people stop calling us tanky. Defense and resistance mean practically nothing in modern orna. been shown time and time again only hp and ward really matter. And on that note, we are not even the most soooo.... ||Lets also forget that we are not the most defense either Cause heaven forbid the dex situation where Deity outshone RS's is also the same for Gilga def vs deity... or Gilga ward vs deity....|| Can't speak to Beo though. Need someone to post the base stats again to figure that one out

[solid nest]

Not if you have defense

2.0 though do need more attack than 1.0 since not only need to penetrate defense but deal more damage and manage the maluses. So if someone is on high anguish 2.0 and could give some feedback on how it works there in beta? Around 20 anguish prob

[solid nest]

Yea lol let me specify whenever I say tanky, I mean ss3 builds vs other builds in general. Gilgy is the squishiest ward class XD

I am glad to see deity in beta as lower than rs in dex tho. Imo rs should be highest dex class

[solid nest]

BeoH has way higher hp and mana, terrible def loss but higher res. Can use any gear though and pet act boost makes them far tankier. Bb1 and 2 make a good difference as well. They also have crazy high attack, mag and then hybrid monster to make them even higher too so they got a good mix. 2350 more hp than gilg herc. Also beoH has higher dex than gilgy so will have less dex issues with ss3 and less m1 issues with current changes.

Standard beo is lower dex and hp with a lot of trade-offs. Mix of both offense and defense of the celestials but meh. Gear benefit is largest boon for defense and mana is higher so overall ward is better. Also starts 100% ward ofc. Pet block is nice for more than just rng if you actually were supposed to die though. Attack lower than base gilg but higher than herc, hybrid monster changes that though. Dex slightly lower. (33)

Slightly less terrible def stat than beo H but more res. Meh.

BeoA just relies on pet entirely, pet block still nice but overall ward less, low attack, no hybrid monster, huge hp loss, dex slightly worse so they only rely on pet block and pet ward bonuses to be tanky but are squishier

But I will say, while defense is a lot less valuable than it was, it still does a lot. Rend/epee hitting you to deal with your defense is a lot better than rs2. Ss3 is insane on m1 which is why it is getting nerfed. Still lowers its damage significantly though with decent def gear. (No need to go all in on morri gear or anything crazy). With the nerf that will increase in effectiveness

[blazing tendon]

Depends on who you are fighting. I use 197 FSC, 192 ONC (filled with rhada) and 183 windtamers shoes with a solvent tower shield.

You know what all that 12k-14k red/def does to the locals here? Nothing. XD

So imho yeah, 14k defense isn't low.... But it still fails to not get 100k Crits from my local heretic and Sirith. Sooo..... Curious legit on your thoughts of that. Is that level in your opinion too low? Cause right now even if I went crazy on Amorri gear unsure of there would be any difference....

And the FSC is all ornate JoC with maybe 3 legendary? And all legendary JoC in feet

[solid nest]

It does significantly lower the damage. Not as much vs beoH since they will have crazy m1 from hybrid monster and monster base attack stats, but making someone use rend/epee over rs2 is already a massive drop in their damage. Make heretic use magic scythe over chakrams. Stuff like that.

For example I use selene hands and have 9k attack but I hit about 100k less on myself compared to a BoF enemy with no defense. So particularly works vs gilgy XD

But ill hit over 300k first turn on BoF players

This is from live where m1 is higher. Ill do mirror hit when I have beta mirror to see how much it does there

Ill post gear too.

And offhand makes me have particularly high def pen for a gilg

[tight sundial]

I haven't been able to participate in the beta yet (been working) and was trying to keep up with very active chat. So really don't have any feedback on the changes yet, but reading some of the comments I can throw some feedback on live. Being one of the MOST gear depenedent classes, I do feel like at the lower AL we really struggle to keep up in most content compared to other classes. I've literally avoided doing dungeons (endless) for a long time because of how much a pain it was as gilga. This prevented me from climbing AL for a long time. I've finally thrown in the towel and just did the DAra or GS farm. In towers, us starting at half ward makes it if we chain shield out the gate for "clear speed" we end up struggling on ward upkeep unless we sacrifice damage for all ward regen. On raids, I'm completely OK with sacrificing damage for not having to redline. But I do feel like it might be skewed against us a little too far. I'm not super active in PvP due to my lower AL. I had a high AL player roll through my area and cap everything and I literally can't touch them (funnily enough it's a gilga player.) But in the little PvP I do in my area between my friends and local (gilgas, deity, and heratic) players it's just whoever can land the first big hit and doesn't get the second chance. In the current form Frenzy is unusable in almost all content besides Raids and even then it's only for 1 or 2 shots before it's too risky to drain ward further. Just my 2 cents for current lower AL gilga.

[blazing tendon]

What is the normal item of purrlys staff?

[solid nest]

Og lute. Warrior cant use

So most gilgy will use spiked greatshield and have less m1

[blazing tendon]

And OG?

[solid nest]

And with selene hands I deal about same damage as SGS with purly on 0 def enemies too. But I got very lucky. 200% purly staff from ornaversary which is a hard event to try and farm

[solid nest]

Fomorian valhallan offhand

So with gilg herc passive boosting its stats 15% too and 50% hybrid monster from selene hands, it makes for a lot of attack that I shouldnt have. Could get more tho if I farm better selene hands and Carl rings so there is that

[blazing tendon]

Ah. Neato!

[solid nest]

Pretty accurate assessment. And yea should take into account the lower levels since gilgy does scale very well, but starts out rough. Biggest thing for gilgy in pvp is that collateral kills second chance unless they get very lucky and get 2 procs. A lot of gameplay gilgy struggles with is better with gursa, but yea slow and steady in towers is gilgy strength, you want speed you swap classes. Same with dungeons and farming

[solid nest]

Yea it is prob my favorite item haha

Pale jewels or tree nuts until you have 100% collateral chance and you will be able to see gilgy strength a lot better. And 168k ward then focus attack as much as you can. If that is swash you will be squishy but have high hp at least if ya use pumpkinless, if not you can use hype that is currently going for attack, hp, ward, and def. Gilgy is strong in pvp and the nerf incoming on ss3 m1 will make it a little more effective to use defense to counter the damage

[tight sundial]

I tried to like DoF/Swash builds but never could get into that mindset. I'm from the school of Tank/Sword and Board not rampaging berserker builds lol

[solid nest]

Im the same. Which brings me back to... swap gursa sword prof and herc polearm proficiencies please XD so many 1h swords for herc with no proficiency and 2h polearms for gursa and no proficiency:( very few 1h polearms and 2h swords. (Tho do have a couple good ones now for 2h sword)

Sword and shield herc! 🍞

[tight sundial]

I do have most of the "META" gear for Gilga. Pumpkinless, Avalon, Fey Surtr, etc... albeit not 190+ on everything, but with the latest changes to spiked shield/collateral. I find it very hard to optimize collateral. Our best "collateral" gear is one of the harder ones to farm (hyperion) due to our weakness in dungeons.

[solid nest]

Yea ngl I swap to heretic corvus for dungeons or rs corvus. Yel staff, despair, envy are all good attacks. Can use gursa too if you want but isnt even close to as good as rs corvus

Gursa can do envy or dragon tail sweep really well tho too

[tight sundial]

I missed the dang dragon event this year. I had taken a little break for a while

[solid nest]

Crit poise on rs covus and avidity and BoF/DoF for parting remark makes it a breeze tho even at low AL

[solid nest]

Ah same I barely caught the end and only got a leg staff and a yel warrior chest 🙁 missed the swords...

So im stuck with Envy 🙁 envy is good though. Gandring from A. Mammon. But anyways getting a bit off topic so if you want to talk about builds and such or want any help we can go to dms for that

[sterile monolith]

Personally, I am not a fan of this new attack based Spiked Shield philosophy. It just makes me feel like I'm a one legged man in a foot race.

And I know, the attack and magic based classes are like, well that's how the game works, you want to make big boom you have to make big boom number go higher! But I liked the fact that Spiked Shield was something totally different.

Did it end up in a totally broken state cause of quadratic scaling, sure. But I will never be a fan of this fix.

[tight sundial]

Yes but only because of the ease of other classes able to build attack AND ward compared to us

[solid nest]

I see both sides of it really. I like it since it does allow the ward cost to be more manageable without crazy augment boosted regen, scaling max ward instead of current does help gilgy more vs other classes with it, and does keep the really high end from scaling into infinity while doing the purest tank builds. But, higher you get the more beo and dursa scale attack better

So they can get a lot higher m1 and damage on the further end of it. Collateral is really nice though

Limit on ward also means they can use celestial lute (deity and beo) to go more hybrid using it. More attack doing that but lose a lot of ward. When the ward doesnt matter anymore though really, it isnt a cost anymore. But I do like having full damage if im at half ward as gilgy vs old ss3 where you needed to regen your ward before landing strong attacks or just brute force it with ALs until your starting ward was high.

Damage is more consistent in pve as well as you use your ward and often do not need to regen or regen turns are less frequent

But I do see your point of it being cool that it was the attack that wasnt entirely based on your attack value. Still isnt but after you max that 50k ward cost... you ignore ward for ss3 damage purposes.

[blazing tendon]

That being said I think this in itself does highlight the fact that access to more gear/items makes a HUGE difference

[solid nest]

Exactly. It is significant

Deity and beo mainly for that

[tight sundial]

It's a huge difference. My buddy mains deity and being able to equip all class gear just makes his builds so much more flexible

[pine mirage]

I had to think about this for a while but I'm convinced you are right; and pet blocks likely do only happen after dex check, which would explain the 50% math instead of 60%.

Currently running another test without a pet on defense. 39 misses out of 100 atm, 1201 dex difference

[solid nest]

For perspective at (just hit AL 57) i lose 1305 attack if I take my purly offhand off for an SGS or Arisen shield. Base version that is farmable and reasonably expectable to be able to get without crazy luck, is only usable by valhallan and deity. With dex being accounted for they can use the Mage Rift cowl for 5% accuracy and good defenses and high ward. If fixes being slightly lower ward than some items by having 11 adorn slots. Had 50% ward when mine was filled with JoC before.

Gilgy does have great gear to use still but more limited for options and building attack, especially with dex.

[eternal temple]

Honestly, this is making me consider switching classes because I HATED this solution. It completely goes against the class theme, and honestly it just feels like a terrible fix. I fully understand that the skill really scales in a way it shouldn’t, but several suggestions have already been made — including adding new ward-based skills.

[pine mirage]

Sample size of 300, dex differential of 1201 - 114 misses, 62% hitrate

Here's the retest

[pine mirage]

I'll stop at 500 for now. 193 misses, 38.6% miss or 61.4% hitrate. Pretty conclusively not 20% missrate at 1200 dex

Just stuff from the testing. My amity does not decrease accuracy and I did not attack if my pet ever blinded the opponent

[round yew]

Interesting just doesnt agree with the actual numbers. So wondering where the mismatch is

[pine mirage]

It completely matches the much more extensive testing already done by pie 🤷‍♂️

[pine mirage]

By actual numbers do you mean the stat Odie gave? As Knight puts it,

[solid nest]

Post in bug report with the data

[sterile monolith]

Somehow i feel taunted, lmao

[whole prism]

Even the game is against us

[spark sandal]

I feel like we should know how this dex formula works.

I don't know many games that have hidden mechanics that are this important.

[gaunt nova]

Yeah these numbers seem to align, but that is a really small gap to hit max. Its one thing if its like 600 dex vs 1800, but seems crazy that reault thing would likely apply to 6k vs 7.2k dex

[blazing tendon]

Also thanks for putting in the effort. I know for sure it isnt easy, and given how much thos will affect Gilga, you have my personal appreciation!

[pine mirage]

Honestly, I've been interested in dex for a long time because of endless; pie is the one who tested everything and I was just sanity-checking against what everyone and Odie was saying 😂

[fierce marsh]

Wow, kinda late to the party

[blazing tendon]

Yes andf no. In the pins there is the big initial feedback that I compiled, and Yoshi then summarized the summary and put it in the ORN section.

Now it's just waiting on the "round 2" of changes for the feedback, and whether things are open to discussion

[fierce marsh]

Ah ok

[rare oar]

Struggling to find a build that actually works for Ursa. Crit just forces you to play BoF and it’s still subpar damage-wise when compared to other classes. Non-crit skills overall suck and SS was killed for Ursa.
2h weapons also just don’t to enough
Has anyone had any success?

[whole prism]

Maybe an SoU build perhaps?

And you can freely build max collateral without having to worry about crit

[spark sandal]

for what content?

[rare oar]

Pretty much everything 😅 Though I’m mostly using Ursa for PvP and towers in live

[spark sandal]

Does non bof crit feel good on any attack/melee class? Its never going to pump the damage that bof can the trade off is no def.

[rare oar]

Crit feels subpar compared to RS (lower attack stat, no extra ward damage and no enhanced crit multiplier) while not having much upside over it. Not enough to beat the bigger walls, while losing a ton of defensive capabilities compared to live (auto counter had to go, but now we’re forced into BoF and lower ward builds)

[spark sandal]

Even with all the 2h bonus things ursa can get? Trev, pumpkinless? Ill have to try this on beta. SS gilgaH is hitting pretty much the same as BOF gursa on my 58 al beta gilga account right now.

[round yew]

What

Ursa outdamages realm across the board with CD properly minmaxed on turn 1

Bristles are busted

[dull knoll]

Eh, not really..
Still prefer old tree nut which is offering versatility because of mag stats back then..

[round yew]

I tested it. Gursa was like 1.5x realms damage same build AL 0 maxed CD

[dull knoll]

Well yeah, if looking only on damage, their ability and the scope was on PvP..

[shell shore]

Crit ursa with CD is strong as fuck what do you mean 😂

[dull knoll]

That's why I said if the scope was on PvP..

Even those still needs specific specialization, gear and the right amount of bristles..
27 is for 100% cola chance, 54% crit and -324 atk..
Using A.Labryss will cut it down around 2 or 3 bristles but loss a lot of crit damage from steady hands of prom if players prefer Celestial Weapon..
Then come dex matter that will change the build again..
Sure dex update is great, but if it's only need 1.2k differences to get around 37% - 40% evasion advantage is sad..
Probably better if change the formula to not waste effort for those who want to catch up their dex difference..
Dex differences divide by highest dex multiply by 100 at 40% cap..

[shell shore]

What about the fun new changes to black dragon armour? Each piece giving 420 dex, 1.6kdef, 12% colat chance and 25% colat damage!
Also slap on 1 or 2 of the fancy new mnemosyne feet for +10% accuracy each 😮 Youll never miss a target again!!!!

[dull knoll]

What skills you're gonna use?
Epee? RS2? HS3?
You do already familiar with those skills on PvP, so just try that..
25% power if you use 2hand swords, axe & hammer..
There would be no end if it's only discussing about PvP..

[shell shore]

Im glad you agree

[round yew]

Gursa is better at anything turn one or short fight. Once realm gets into redline (for longer content) it becomes better. Simple as that, no discussion needed.

[dull knoll]

#1437493852457140265 message
This, that trigger me..
While me, not clearly explain it why..

[shell shore]

I wonder why everyone uses bristles in their crit builds 🤔

[round yew]

2% crit and 3% CD chance just for -12 attack is crazy for an adorn. No other class really gets something quite that overpowered

[dull knoll]

Did you read my answer after your statement?
Old tree nut offer versatility..
+atk +mag +dex which is back then is anguish 1.0..

[shell shore]

Why does lil guppy want mag stat on gigl...?

[dull knoll]

I believe, I already write my reason above..

[rare oar]

And 0 ward lol

[rare oar]

The -12 attack scales with ascension though. It’s not as strong at higher AL if you’re using a lot of them because it’s a significant cut into your attack

[dull knoll]

I admit I was wrong on tree nut stats..
But, I still stand on bristles are not busted since I'm using tree nut over bristles on anguish 1.0 and still good in current anguish 2.0 beta with dex matter..

[solid nest]

Hmmm... got my mirror now and even vs cactus

[solid nest]

Yea i use tree nuts too. I find they are better 🙂 extra attack means more since ss change a while back than the ward %

If the change goes through then the good dex on them will help some too

[round yew]

Sounds like a balanced (OP) piece of gear

Basically 25% damage on a high dex / armor piece

[blazing tendon]

Because armour matters soooo much in OHKO meta

And those three oeo es yes give a fantastic 1200 dex.

Now with the formula we only have a 20% miss chance instead of 40%.

But wait, dex now matters so everyone builds for it so back down to 40% miss chance I guess?

[round yew]

Black dragon is some of the best dex in the game in addition to 25% damage boost.

Tbh i was theory crafting with broken pieces recently on BoF so who even cares about the nice def bonuses.

We were talking about damage. GUrsa turn 1 can outdamage realm. Hard stop, no discussion.

[shell shore]

There is no way you truely believe you should just be gifted a 100% hit rate right? Surely not.

You know every other class in the game misses too right?

[abstract flicker]

And just for clarification: 1200 dex diff means 60% hit rate. Additional 1200 dex ( 0 dex diff) result in 99% hit rate (+1 accuracy for +30 dex).

[whole prism]

Hrm. Maybe when bloodray flask gets nerfed then every other class in the game misses too :p

[shell shore]

HA TRUE!

[bronze maple]

and Apex spells.. 😛

[shell shore]

Nah you gotta charge them, that doesnt count

[bronze maple]

I don't know how bloodray flasks are working tbh but I would assume it's not an infinite blast otherwise it's OP 😄

[fierce marsh]

They are one use nukes in PvP, before needing to be charged, again

[bronze maple]

yeah everybody is set on PVP content really, I am almost never considering it anyway for any balance because as we are ALL aware PVP is 'stupid' in this game. There is no balance to be done as long as formulae and mechanics are the same as PVE. One shot builds are here and not going anywhere. Just focus on PVE guys, that's easier 😛

[fierce marsh]

Very true, as much as I'm a PvP nut, I know how useful some mechanics that are op in PvP are in Pve, lik being able to counter a damn succubus

Ah, wrong example 😅

[shell shore]

They can be used turn 1 and never miss and cant be blocked and can do enough damage to 1 hit... thats all i know about them xD

[bronze maple]

ok so that seems OP then... thanks for the insight... I haven't done 'heretic' gameplay for like 3 years now.. maybe I should go back to see how it plays now.. I only tested here and there in beta and was not impressed back then when the rework happened.. but I guess they came a long way with all the patches and gear.

Anyway then.. I tried some gilga black dragon gear with gursa yesterday, that's nice but I never was a fan of going no ward... I only almost ever use Herc or base.. I must not have the good build for GUrsa for Dungeon boss horde.. it seemed 'not efficient'

[blazing tendon]

It's ironic that you say this, right below you then mention a turn 1 zero missing skill.... and your statement which isn't anywhere near what I said, formally it's a arguementative non-sequitur fallacy, or masked man fallacy. No where did I say, nor did I ask for 100% hit rate.

saying a 40% miss rate is atrocious, and that 20% miss rate is still absolutely brutal to me seems a reasonable statement.

I love everyone jumping in and slinging shit everywhere when we haven't even gotten an update or information from the devs since the last discussion. But hey, who cares about the testing and data we provided before, lets sidetrack the entire conversation, attack people for things they never said, and just in general be a troll and act like a toxic influence on the community.

@slow dome can feel free to call me out, but personally I don't like being attacked with false equivalency and ridiculous statements when legit I am just trying to help provide testing, back up my statements with the facts and effort I have given to the studio, and try to ensure that the lowest dex class is tested.

[shell shore]

Damn I guess you really do believe you deserve 100% hit rate

[blazing tendon]

@slow dome So if this isn't 100% troll and being a toxic wank, I don't know what is.

[shell shore]

Please refrain from calling me rude names, keep the chat on topic

[blazing tendon]

Please refrain from trolling.

[silent relic]

Whats is the MaxCap of C.D ??

[whole prism]

Just wondering when was he asking for 100% hitrate?

[whole prism]

The cap for collateral dmg% is 299% I believe? Maybe higher or lower :p

Doubt there's higher tho

[pine mirage]

If both players have the same dex, they both have 99% hitrate. If you have 1200 dex more than your opponent means they have a 60% hitrate

[whole prism]

I don't think gilgamesh can get 1.2k more then RS, hcorv or Deity

Unless they build absolutley 0 dex

[abstract flicker]

Yes, this is what I meant. I was just referring to the statement of @blazing tendon that +1200 dex lead to "20% miss chance instead of 40%" (which would be 1% instead).

(I think there was some confusion about it as Odie stated that number, which seems not to be in line with several tests)

[blazing tendon]

??? If your oppoenet has +1200 dex, as stated it is supposed to be 20% miss chance as per odie. the testing shows 40% miss chance.

Hwoever me referring to a set that yes, gives CD, it gives zero ward, and 1200 dex normally would be great, except when it comes to the piss poor dex gilga has, as stated by MrKebabs I was referring to the point that it wouldn't even catch up, let alone equal or exceed that of RS/Hcorv/Deity. So we can build for it all we want, but the original statement of saying that black dragon gear is THE solution and SO OP is the original statement I was referring to.

Hopefully that clarify's

[shell shore]

Black dragon gear is not THE solution. There are many solutions, there are a number of new high Dex and accuracy celestial adornments that can be used too

[pine mirage]

Just wanna point out - saying that 1200 dex gives a 20% miss rate is not accurate in multiple ways. This may be where some confusion is coming from for other people, so let's just try to not take things personally

[gaunt nova]

I wonder if the equation is double counting somehow

[blazing tendon]

I was saying that even with 1200 dex, you can still end up easily with a 20-40% miss rate.

I wasn't even taking things personally, it's the fact that when I stated that no where did I mentioned I want a free 100% hit rate (which with FMC was 95% anyways) and then even after explaining that was given a flippant and trolling answer.

[pine mirage]

Having +1200 dex can still end up with a 60% miss rate given the right context 🙂 so it's just best to make it clear what you mean. I understand you did not appreciate what Aussie said, it's just better to disengage than to react at that point

[blazing tendon]

And so my clarification in the next message, and the subsequent deliberate provocation by Aussie is what? Somehow I drove him to say that again?

[shell shore]

Did you manage to get any of the Mnemosyne spine adornments from the recent event? They can help boost your ward a lot

[shell shore]

I've politely requested you keep the chat on topic, please stop

[pine mirage]

You didn't drive him to do anything, and I'm not saying you caused anything; I am saying I think the best thing you can do in that kind of situation is to disengage. Just my opinion when it comes to disagreements/distasteful interactions

[silent relic]

@whole prism I have 100% and miss C.D sometimes🤔

[shell shore]

You can definately have 100% and it procs 100% of the time, but from my experience playing thousands of games of gursa in BoF, Ive actually noticed this happening before too, but very rarely. I assumed it was just a bug or something

[abstract flicker]

I had similar observations for 100% crit. Maybe it is like hit chance: 99% is max??

[silent relic]

I never miss a critical hit whit 95% + 5 % of Spell pasive Critrate, but the C.D whit 100% of C.D chance sometimes is missed, i try whit 120% and is the same...and the question here is: What is the true max Cap of C.D chance?

[haughty crest]

100% - it won't proc if the first damage instance already killed the target. If you're seeing different behavior log a bug report

[gaunt nova]

Iirc, Cd will also only proc on last hit of a chain, so if you cs and hit target 1 but miss target 2 you won't get it

I'm also pretty sure it won't proc t1 in BoF, but other than those 3 cases it should be 100%

[pine mirage]

Yeah I remember being super wrong about that, it cannot proc t1 in bof

[pallid quarry]

I know a way to solve all of this

Bring back crit to SS
Ok meme over

[pine mirage]

I still kinda want gilga to get 2.5x crit multiplier like heretic and RS

[silent relic]

I test in Arena, 100 hit and C.D only hit 39 times (39%).
Whit Captus 100-100 (100%)
In towers and Dng C.D miss to sometimes but i need test.

Does the Collateral Damage chance max cap change with the zone?

[rare oar]

At the very least Ursa, since it’s losing ward power

[gaunt nova]

You one shot all the other times likely

[pine mirage]

Sure yeah, I just like the idea of shifting power from other gilga things onto crit. Symmetry with the other 3 base classes

[silent relic]

@gaunt nova Last Chance sometimes

[gaunt nova]

Get a video, CD should proc and kill if they second chance

[pine mirage]

Unless third chance 😂

[rare oar]

They can get third chance, and the log won’t mention it. This has caused confusion with CD for a long time

[silent relic]

@gaunt nova In towers i oneshot mobs and miss C.D to...

[slow dome]

Hi guys, I've slowed this chat down to 10 minute intervals. I would prefer not have to, but we need to be able to take the emotion out of everything and focus on our opinions, without being too upset that folks with disagree with our opinions. I'll read thoroughly through to get a grasp of why I've been pinged a few times in here

[gaunt nova]

Barring the above listed scenarios you shouldnt be missing CD with 100%, would like to see a video if its something otherwise, and you can make a bug report

[whole prism]

If the mob died from the original hit or last AoE hit missed collat won't proc

[solid nest]

No base attack and no ward. So only good if doing a crit build or something, not ss3. Need to deal damage on first hit for collateral to matter. Also, collateral finishes second chance so in pvp chance matters more than damage really.

[round yew]

The discussion was a long time ago but this was the original context

#1437493852457140265 message

[solid nest]

Ss3 doesnt have 100% in live even 🧐 btw dorado passive 50% accuracy means all attacks have minimum possible miss chance.

Also for any confusion with CD, it attacks after your turn ends in calculation. If they die on your turn then you wont see it even with 100% chance. 🙂 same reason as to why it kills second chance and double cast doesnt.

[solid nest]

Gursa does not outdamage rs in pvp, in pve one has 20 more effective ALs at the start while the other needs low HP to get the boost. Rs does deal more damage in pve too but is squisher so the way higher damage comes with risk. Mystic feather offsets some of it but not all. Avidity is very strong for any horde content so most risk is diminished there, but still when hit way more likely to die.

For example, both using same gear envy ony my rs corvus AL 5 hits 4x harder than my gursa. I do not buff for horde dungeons. Stack 95% crit and use phoenix/themis pet. Assassin boots give t.dex^^^ and t.attack^^^ or use a lugus. Raids gursa can use frenzy effectively, so damage comes up some. But rs still wins. Keep in mind there is a large difference in base attack and the passive crit damage boost base rs gets. If talking pvp, gursa passive 20% stats does not work. 15% 2h power (20% here in beta) is additive with other 2h bonuses, this means when you stack 2h boosts, especially how people do it in pvp, that makes less of a diff, and since it is a multiplier of total attack rs base attack shines. Then you have the 25% crit. If using dorito you do lose a lot of that but gain 50% accuracy, 50% status res/fade and 50% dodge. Dont forget starting ward. It is a class that trades damage for survivability and it is great. Only currently not felt because ss3 FMC and rs2 FMC.

In pvp though I will say gursa collateral is more important than dealing a bigger initial hit. It counters second chance and if parapet procs, second hit still prob enough to finish. Especially if you have over 50% collateral damage. Isnt too hard to get high damage, especially with how many people run BoF. Also gursa survivability is higher than rs classes, so not saying they are bad. The nerfs to gursa in pvp in the beta are great and I think gursa is in a much better place in beta. Lose ward power, it was never their thing to begin with. Bristles are great but they are for everyone and are a huge rs boon.

[gaunt nova]

Nevermind misread. Maybe this 10 min timer can be lifted soon

[solid nest]

Yes sorry if it was in a bit of a big block but yea for the pvp section was saying the crest 20% passive that is a first turn advantage in pve does not work in pvp. 20% is beta 2h bonus and is additive with other 2h bonuses:)

[round yew]

I test with numbers yeah gursa outdamages realm turn 1
Its not a bad thing. Part of the balance of the 2 classes.

[solid nest]

That is going to be more of the issue of your build. Collateral is strong and counters defensive measures, but rs scales more in pvp. Also, sorry to say but 64 AL gursa testing in pvp vs rs AL 5 using same gear, rs hits harder with initial hit. Collateral brings the gursa ahead, but 59 ALs more makes a huge diff. Gursa is a lot tankier though and collateral does counter second chance so that is big. Rs destroys all their ward though so db and ss3 builds will be destroyed. Especially if they are gilg. Using same gear. Defense also effects rs less than gursa. This is also in beta with the boosted 2h power and the 50% collateral vs live where it is 15% 2h and 30% collateral. Not saying rs is better but saying gursa just has higher damage isnt true. This is damage vs 0 defense as well. AL diff also means my gursa has more attack.

Rs can also proc avidity for extra hits too. Not as strong as collateral, but still. Max that out and it is comparable similar to sequencer double cast but better. Not consistent enough to be relied on, but strong to not be completely ignored as well. Have fought rs who have taken 3 turns in a row a decent bit and lost because of it. Ward damage has also stopped my ward build from dealing damage as well when 2nd chance saves me.

(Provided gursa is stronger overall because collateral kills second chance and parapet procs, not to mention being tanky)

[solid nest]

Also should mention that if gilgy doesnt kill with initial hit, they lose most of the gilgy advantage of collateral to counter second chance. If first hit isn't a lot higher than what it takes to kill first turn vs parapet, you will only redline a dorito/rs/deity player and get nuked. So how much damage the collateral does isnt super relevant since you still need first hit to kill or you are just a tankier rs without avidity. Collateral is best when initial hit leaves them at 1 then the second hit only needs to take 1.

[round yew]

Agree to disagree. Not sure what testing leads you to that conclusion honestly

[solid nest]

? Using same gear in mirror and vs another account wearing 0 gear in the settlement. First turn hit, leave re-enter. In beta where gursa is buffed for these types of hits too. By a decent margin.

In live the combined damage is equal to a dorito using same attack and gear. Person using is AL 68 vs my 64. And again, need to kill with the initial hit to proc their 2nd chance or be able to well overkill so that collateral is capable of killing as well from full in case of parapet. Otherwise you lose the big advantage gilgy has in pvp while rs keeps their avidity chance to kill your second chance.

But first turn damage also isnt everything. If you can hit 250k and you only need 200k to kill enemies in 1 hit, 270k isnt important. The second hit applying after and killing their second chance is. Or avidity chance to hit them again and kill them. Collateral just more consistent.

Having 2nd chance is a nice boon for dursa and the high hp. To potentially survive a hit and hit them in defense or if you miss in offense, to hit again.

But raw 1st turn damage goes to rs. Doesn't make them better though overall. 🤷 collateral is very strong in pvp. And in beta with it being 50% for gursa is amazingly strong.

Also using Aaru headwrap so my ward is suffering from it and is far below my hp for gursa in this making my ehp take a big hit. Often people use beg Y for the ward boost and adorn slots for max collateral chance. I dont have one so... but anyways initial hit being 12% higher in buffed gursa beta vs rs using same gear, spec and attack, with 59 AL diff... isnt a big diff for the AL diff. But overall gursa is better for being tankier and collateral finishing people off from second chance or parapet. (Only classes I see potentially living from a hit is generally a gursa or BeoH if it deals damage. Ofc ignoring pet block, miss and parapet since anyone can use those).

But I will say, my gursa hits a little harder (a lot with collateral) vs live.

[solid nest]

But anyways this is vs 0 defense. Defense effects rs less than gursa. And if relying on collateral to boost damage enough to deal with their hp and cant 1 shot without... you are going to lose the biggest benefit of collateral. Rs can do enough damage to one-shot while getting 30% avidity chance to hit again. 2.25x ward damage does wonders for fighting any ss3 build, especially gilgies, and db builds.

If relying on the collateral damage for dealing enough damage instead of the last 1 hp on the enemy, you also are likely to lose a lot if the enemy has good def as it effects you twice now. Lower initial hit the lower the collateral is. If only needing to clear their last 1hp, doesnt matter if it deals 1 or 1m. It still is only taking 1. Only further benefit is if they get a 3rd chance and you drain a bit more ward. But that is a tiny boon as they are at 1hp... so hit them with another 1.

[solid nest]

Oh also, 12% damage ahead on 64 AL gursa is me sacrificing not having 100% collateral chance to put on 40% crit amity too. Since with 24 total slots on aaru and pumpkinless I cannot reach 100% without sacrificing augments. Need 27 adorn slots for 100% with gursa in beta (28 in live for 99%), and only 24 slots on this gear. Beg Y helm would help a lot by bringing slot total to 26 as well as boosting ward for ehp if you have ward turns. Lucky if ya have a 40%crit/starting ward turns. Gursa doesnt start with it. So gonna be pretty squishy with no ward still. Already squishy for being BoF even with high hp. Tankier than rs tho.
So I like collateral amity more in which means AL 5 rs deals more initial damage. More in collateral from gursa... but uh... yea not enough. Beg Y helm would bring up to 98% chance which is pretty solid... and lose a lot of attack though. Or use collateral boosting amity, but then I highly doubt you have collateral, crit damage and starting ward. Even just crit damage/collateral would be amazing. So yeah chances are you lose that 40% crit damage if you want 100% collateral or a ton of attack if you are fine with 98% and want the 40% crit. Collateral chance is important for gilg but damage boost is meh. Initial hit more important. But so is m1. So as BoF and that high of 2h bonus... loss of Aaru helm is 1621 attack for me, and mine isnt even that great. Also a 200% one gives less attack than rs has above gursa in base stats. 627 attack is pretty big. 200% aaru headwrap is 427 at GF. Mine has 276 with the bristles in it.

[sterile monolith]

I think the crux of the disagreements revolve mostly around Gilga mains who feel that non gilga mains are over here "grass is greener'ing us" and saying that everything is fine, just build dex.

Personally my opinion from testing is this:
Gilga needs a little something, for accuracy that isn't going to be available on gear for other classes to use. I don't think it needs to be a lot but it needs to be something to bridge the dex gap just a little.

If you say well build dex, we already start at a nearly 500 dex deficit to Dorado (not to mention their passive) and a 550 dex deficit to Deity Ursa who both can use the same gear as we can. We also have a 100 dex deficit to even Beo Hydrus who currently has a higher damage potential with the beta SS formulation as it currently stands.

Unless you swap to Ursa, SS is pretty much it for valid end game PVP strategies for Base Gilga and Herc. That leads us into a trap where if we gear for dex, we can still be easily outdexed by most of the main pvp classes in the game (sorry heretics). Whereas if we gear for durability we are going to just get zeroed. Now before people say, welcome to the same boat as everyone else, our only other pvp option is really to switch to ursa. We can't really just swap skills around. We got one cannon, everything other base or Herc build is just dogwater.

TL;DR: That deficit needs closed just a bit (doesn't even need to be completely closed) or Gilga is going to be so insanely easy to beat in Settlement warfare for most classes that we won't even be speedbumps.

[shut citrus]

As a non-Gilga main, one of the biggest issues for me is that ward builds already torch the non-ward builds.

If Gilga, Realm and Hera are supposed to have some sort of Rock-Paper-Scissors, Gilga consistently has the advantage (and by the extension of hybrid and all class gear, that means Deity and BeoH as well)

Most of the concern here I see is either directed at being unable to hit hard enough to one-hit-kill other ward builds or missing too much against high dex classes, namely Dorado and Deity.

So is the Orna rock-paper-scissors supposed to be tank beats mage beats assassin beats tank? Or tank beats assassin beats mage beats tank?

Because to the Heretic, RS, and GS, it seems like tank beats everything. And if the tank can still do damage, (it can) being able to miss at a reasonably high rate if someone builds dex seems the closest these classes can get to having a more consistent chance per PvP. (Yes, Deity gets away with it and that is also a problem)

If Gilga needs or gets some (even small) amount of accuracy, then the three non-warders should be getting something as well plus damage so they aren’t outgunned by the guys sitting behind their massive walls of ward.

So if Gilga truly needs some accuracy viva la Homing Shield, then okay.

[solid nest]

Rs kill gilgs easy though. My AL 5 rs can nuke gilgies 50-100 ALs higher easily. Now collateral makes gilgy very strong in offense.

But ss3 doesnt work if gilgy has 0 ward by their turn. Btw even a 30% accuracy from homing shield would be an accuracy nerf in pvp for gilgy if dex scaled.

One hit other ward builds? You dont need to build ward specifically to have ward = pvp hp. All you need is for starting ward turns and enough ward for 50% absorption to matter for survivability. So not sure where you get this idea that ward builds are harder to one shot than say... using a 2h crit build.

Also btw, I see new t10s dropping db BeoA high hp/ward builds as rs. Actually is the go to class to counter ward builds. Heretic can do the same with high damage first turn nuke damage. Also their dex is higher than gilgy :p by a lot. Rs is also the least gear dependant class. Need a good 2h and have fun.

I do think that dorito dodge passive being ignored entirely by ss3 and rs2 though is crazy. It is the defensive survivability based rs... and the defensive perk doesnt work. So at least having some extra miss chsnce on dorito would be needed to not invalidate their class passive entirely.

That said making it scale dex and not giving anything would mean all gilgs swap gursa if they want to pvp and play like an rs.

(Note: gilgy starting ward % means it is easier to 0 gilgy ward than any other class first turn)

[gaunt nova]

Imo in a game where you play one class it shouldn't be rps style, you should be able to edge advantages against any class by gearing properly. I'd be fine if gilga got a little something for accuracy or other classes were knocked back down a bit for SS. As it stands deity is probably a more effective user in many scenarios.

[solid nest]

Yea exactly. Pvp should be balanced but when it comes to other content, gilgy is decent at raids. Low attack means ss3 is better on BeoH in higher anguish from what I have seen, and dursa... but good still. Other content? My rs AL 5 beats gursa AL 64 and other gilgs. Squishier but it wins in anguish dungeons for speed by far. Heretic does too.

Heretic AL 25 leaves gilgy in the dust in towers. Heretic corvus vs gilgy in endless isnt even a competition. Open world despair farming? Heretic Ara and heretic corvus. Can farm despair in orn gear with heretic. Single target, blood-ray corvus. Multi? Heretic Ara yel staff.

If scaling dex and lowering m1 both... beo H will use ss3 best and have pet boosts 🫡 they also can do dungeons better and towers. Raids as well while we are at it. Endless... better than gilgy tho not the best.

If balancing for pvp I think the initial m1 reduction with m2 boost is enough. Make it where people actually value defense more instead of everyone being one-stop-shop BoF lol. Defense already works though and is more survivability than pumpkinless. Unless they are hitting your res. But i would say almost everyone ik who does a lot of pvp is fine with the loss of ehp vs FMC attacks like ss3 and rs2 since they hit a lot harder and the dex means they dodge more vs attacks that scale dex and they hit more with dex scaling attacks.🤣 Taking m1 and m2 and accuracy though would make it worthless.

Currently in beta on my mirror vs enemy with no defense, I hit less than live with gilg herc first turn ss3. Now that is with bastille start being 30% instead of 12% too.

Gilg herc in beta being harder to 0 ward first turn is nice though.

[spark sandal]

Let’s give these changes a fair chance.

I totally understand why some of the long-time Gilgamesh mains might feel uneasy — the class has been strong for quite a while, and change always brings uncertainty. SS and FMC kept Dex builds suppressed for a long time, and the optimal strategy became stacking tank stats with top-tier ward pieces and letting SS do the rest.

I use SS on Beoh myself, and even I’ve felt how stale the meta has gotten. It hasn’t encouraged much build diversity or interesting matchups.

In a healthy class-based game, warriors, thieves, mages, and everyone in between should each have strengths and weaknesses. A scenario where a warrior can raise a heavy shield and consistently tag a thief every time just isn’t great for overall balance.

I’m genuinely glad the studio recognized this and is taking steps to shake things up. Hopefully these adjustments open the door to more variety and more engaging gameplay for everyone.

[rare oar]

Thing is, deities and BeoHs are doing the exact same thing but better than the warrior class. That’s the crux of the discussion here. I’m still baffled they walked back part of the SS nerf to other classes, really felt like that was the way to go if they wanted to incentivize variety

[slender kraken]

Did they really walked back? I still see it in the patch notes but i've not been following it too much

[arctic dust]

Remember when people used to use chained shield 👴😔

[solid nest]

Not saying it doesnt need a nerf and it ignoring dorito dodge entirely isnt right. Which is why I am saying gilg needs homing shield to give some accuracy boost. Gilg, especially as ALs scale, is going to end up being 40-50% miss chance. And in pvp where a miss means you die and lose a majority of the time.

Everyone using it because of how strong it is is boring. But nerfing gilgy into being useless at pretty much the only thing that are good at isnt great. Rs still counters gilgy too and damage builds can still kill gilgs. Biggest issues are on gursa and those are removed in beta.

Homing shield would still have dex having higher dodge rates than current and dorito still getting +10% dodge vs max dex diff. But just would make gilgy not invalidated entirely and beoH still running ss3 better since they have more dex. Or dursa since they have very high dex. And better gear options.

@slender kraken yea they lowered m1 nerf and the m2 boost that they did for gilgy before but it isnt in line with gilgy not losing damage vs 0 def anymore. I lose a lot now on 0 def

[spark sandal]

Gilgamesh isn’t anywhere close to useless in beta. You can still build full tank and hit almost as hard as a crit Gursa. For context, here’s my 58 AL Gursa and Gherc — and I only missed 1 out of 5 SS hits on Wrecked, who had 50 AL on me (my Gursa (bof) vs my Gherc (cata) in pictures).

Now people are asking for homing shield as an “accuracy buff”? Come on. At that point, you might as well ask for FMC to stay too.

[solid nest]

How that working when you miss 40-50% of the time? Yea useless lol. My AL 5 rs hits over 240k 🤣 🫡 with FMC rs2.

Missing 40-50% of the time means you lose that much of the time more pretty much. Also 121k first turn is not enough damage. Especially BoF. That looks pretty useless to me.

Btw beoH and dursa hit that hard too but with more dex, hp, starting ward, total ward, and for gursa a lot higher defenses. But with better gear. Without swashing and with higher m1 using hybrid amity instead of 15% while full hp amity.

Anyways showcasing a high m1 low damage attack vs BoF on gursa as BoF too... yea that isnt good. Here is AL 5 rs. Could do as dorito too for extra dodgy, less damage but still higher than that. Also! 50% accuracy on dorito makes all attacks FMC. 🙂

Ss3 BoF too? That isnt killing anyone tanky at your AL. I have relatively low HP since I dont BoF so no Pumpkinless and you need a minimum of 120k to kill me first turn. But I also have 10k def. Also biggest nerf to ss3 in beta is accuracy and m1. So using vs 0 defense and ignoring miss chance is ignoring almost the entire change.

Damage range i have on rs2 is 240-280k roughly

[solid nest]

Should also specify, this isnt optimized for rs either. Using my gursa items. Would be replacing the tree nuts with crim pins or mono ess for that avidity. Not a massive diff but a decent one.

Also 97% crit so I can use other attacks too

In case you dont like rs2.

[dapper flame]

Gilga is only good at ss3. Reason why is that it has never needed to do anything else. It’s comfortable and easy. Just press ss3 and win. For PvP, just one skill and win. Now it needs to build deeper.

I don’t understand most arguments here. Doesn’t do enough damage? It does when the other class went all in. And if it doesn’t, it’s another tank. And that’s the problem everyone has had.

If the opponent goes all in on dex, it means he didn’t go all in on something. If it’s heretic, then just build resistance, and if it’s blood ray then just hit back. If it’s realm/swash, high dex AND attack, then it means low def.

Oh wait. My ss3 misses against realm? Then use RS2 and build into attack.

That is the one shot meta. Fixed miss is still there. It was just removed from the single skill in the game that doesn’t sacrifice anything to get that FMC.

I see a lot of pictures of builds doing “X” thing, and just by looking at it, I know it can be fixed. But what people seem they prefer is not to fix anything and just keep using the same build with similar results.

[solid nest]

Gilgy still wont be able to use other attacks is the issue. Pick a build. Other classes will beat them at it. Rs2 will do pitiful damage.

The sacrifice gilgy has is being the squishy ward reliant class that has attack problems. Attack hasnt been felt as much since everyone is running BoF lately so 0 def on enemies. Also ss3 has really high m1 in live atm.

Gursa will be the only viable gilgy option with this in pvp. Doesn't open up build diversity is just destroys the class and turns it into a class that plays like RS. And it isnt that "oh ill miss rs," it is "oh ill have 40% miss against everyone even if i build dex."

By your same logic every one shot build just "presses attack and wins" not just ss3. And they can be just as tanky. (Spoiler, dursa ss3 is a lot tankier than gilgy ss3 and they have high dex too, same with BeoH)

You stating gilgy is only good at ss3 is the point. This isnt buffing any other game-play, it is taking away the only thing gilgy is good at.

(Next spoiler: BeoH verse 4 hits hard and more dex and tankier than ss3 gilgy. Dursa crit is too.)
(Also pretty easy to one shot a gilgy to at least their second chance. Other than gursa with that high hp. But they dont use ss3 in beta so... point invalid there still. Most other classes are harder to kill than gilgy.

Next we get rid of 50% accuracy boon on dorito? It makes them always 1% miss chance 🤔 on any attack, any build. 3k dex isnt hard to reach with their base dex.

[gaunt nova]

Yeah I agree we should just remove FMC on skills and give accuracy to moves as a gradient based on their other attributes

[solid nest]

Yea i want dorito to have some dodge bonus from their passive that works at least. Ignoring it atm kinda crazy

[dapper flame]

Lemme try.

-Please, try other things before saying this. The level you’d need to be at in PvP is much lower than other classes needed against Gilga. You don’t need a 500k hit against any other class except Deity maybe. Other classes have been needing these huge hits to deal with your ward.

-Squishy?! What content are you talking about? Hope it’s not PvP, cause Gilga would only feel squishy against things designed to do max damage in exchange for everything else.

-Playing like realm? So skill variety and being able to tap into those is a problem?

• Who can be “just as tanky”? Deity. BeoH is not tanky, and if they do go tanky, they sacrifice a lot of attack. But ok, after deity, it would be BeoH the next one. That leaves more than half the classes that can’t be tanky. In any content.

-Gilga is only good at ss3. So my idea is that everyone focuses on ALTERNATE ways to make it better that don’t rely on ss3. There should never be an attack that hits this hard with that much defense. That doesn’t exist in any game. There should always be something to give up in exchange for hitting that hard. And just let ss3 get nerfed. It should be a way to defend, that hits modestly, for defending with max defenses.

• Last thing…where are we getting these 40% miss chance things? There is sooooo much dex around. And gursa has access to thief gear and black dragon gear, and adornments, and the ALs that y’all have comfortably farmed.

If anything, I still think that ss3 is slightly overtuned. And that another option should be given to base Gilga and gherc.

Being “better” or “worse” than other classes is just a bad way to view things. There should always be better or worse. If you don’t like it, then you can switch to other classes and hunt that gear and put in those ALs. But if we stick to one class, like I do, it does come with understanding that you’re not the best or maybe even close to it in all content. You just need to be good enough to do it. Just…good…enough.

[solid nest]

That is just not true lmao. I have played all classes. BeoH has higher stats than gilg and IS tankier. It isnt in question at all. 40% miss is the diff in dex gilg has vs other classes. No amount of building dex is going to fix that, because they use dex gear too. Pumpkinless is the go to gear atm and has insane dex.

There is no "building gilg for other things" attack is too low and dex is too low. Period. Try the class before saying it. BeoH is my second most used pvp class btw. My 20 AL beoH is quite tanky and that is going damage. No sacrificing attack. Not sure where you get the idea that 2 classes with way higher stats and can use same gear and better cant build to do the same things. 20 ALs and same gear my beoH is almost as tanky as 64 AL gilg herc with more dex in the same gear. Dursa is similar but def carries more vs hp. 1k higher attack and mag to match. Hybrid amity means 30% more effective attack 🤔🫡 dursa does similar but less attack (more than gilgy) more tank and 2 free pumpkinless items worth of dex base stats

Gursa doesnt use ss3. And black dragon is not very good as your initial hit will be weak and collateral is needed to finish not to be high damage.

[sterile monolith]

I think what MW was trying to say that maybe Gilga and Herc need to be given other options instead of doubling down on SS. However from a studio time perspective I do think that's a much heavier lift.

Though in many ways I do agree with the premise but I think you'd pretty much have to redesign the class to do it.

[quaint mural]

1. happy thanks giving if you celebrate it. 2) doesn’t look like we are getting consensus here and even if we did NF doesn’t have to implement anything we do agree on. At this point it seems like it’s up to them to make some choices about how they want Gilga to perform.

[solid nest]

Yea but issue is is that often they do go for what a majority of people vote on, and gilg is the least played class. Look at how most people in this chat havent even been gilg players
Had a decent number but a lot of others too.

[dapper flame]

I still only see you comparing classes and just saying mine isn’t “quite as good”. It shouldn’t maybe? We all know some things don’t make sense with BeoH, but don’t forget they don’t get steadfast and some other stuff.

All I see is you want Gilga to be the best.

My point is that Gilga people are soooo heavily focused only on SS, that their class is pretty mediocre and they haven’t even found out cause of the crutch that SS is.

As always, Strahd understands. It is more complicated than just working on ss3. But we have to start somewhere. Collateral is a good starting point, ward is also a positive. Just try to work it from that angle and figure out what the second playstyle would be best.

And also, you might not like what “non Gilga” players say, but that’s the outside perspective. Which is pretty important.

[shell shore]

Always just seems like gilg need to be the best class at everything smh

[sterile monolith]

Comments like this really do bring nothing productive to the conversation and only serve to enflame pople who already feel passionately about things. I appreciate that you feel the need to make your opinion heard but could you perhaps add a little substance? Ideally substance drawn from testing the changes in Beta.

[solid nest]

? Not being as good is definition of unbalanced. So that isn't an intelligent argument. Steadfast is a pve thing really. Not important in pvp. I dont have steadfast as gilg herc. Haven't had any pvp issues and even pve it is qol.

Gilgy isnt the best currently and I am pushing for some nerfs so that is blatantly a lie and slander. I just dont want the entire class to be nerded into just being "play gursa or different class" I play all classes. Gilg is also weak in all PVE currently too so... strong in pvp offense, defense lowers damage a lot more than it does for other classes. A lot of people's issue is they wanna BoF and complain they get hit hard.

What is the "some other stuff" also? What else ya lose? Have bb1 and 2 which is awesome. Hybrid monster is multiplicative scaling with ALs while other classes passives are additive and dont work all the time, have limits.

Ss isnt a crutch, it is more of the wheelchair that the paraplegic sits in.

Collateral is the biggest part of gilg that is really strong. Outside perspective only matters if someone knows how the class functions. Like at all. You have shown you dont when you say "build rs2 on gilg" when not even talking about gursa. 🤣

@shell shore best at everything? You obviously arent a gilg player. Endless? Terrible. Horde? Bad. Towers? Bad. Raids? Ok. Pvp? Great. Definitely not the best at everything 🤔 far from it. Ss3 does need a nerf but not to where gilgy becomes the worst at pvp too. Which this will do. Unless you play rs2 dursa and try and be an rs as gilg. Class identity gone 🫡.

M1 nerf would make it easier to reduce the damage and would allow it to matter more and defense to be more important. Already lowers it a lot though.

Accuracy? Dorito should be able to dodge more than it is since that is its class identity. I dont want to invalidate that so they should have +10% dodge vs ss3 and rs2 imo. Same difference from max dex dodge the passive gives.

[shell shore]

I'm glad you agree SS needs a nerf

[solid nest]

Yup just not in a way that destroys it entirely for gilg

[shut citrus]

Might I encourage some to step back from the thread before emotions run too high?

I’ll put this forward as my last post here. Gilga (base) vs Realm Dorado using identical gear at AL0. This isn’t meant to skew the discussion one way or another just to show some numbers. (Gilga has the Fomor Sprite, RealmD has the Black Friday Sprite)

Both got zero’d with RS2 vs Deities. Both did enough damage to kill every Heretic, GS and RS they went up against in one hit. Both had some Gilga, BeoH or Deity matches that required a Spiked Shield or a second or third hit to win. I’d post the rest of the screenshots but 10 pic limit.

Both won 29/30 Arena fights losing to a Deity each time.

I’ll try Rend / Epee now to see how it does

(Also Happy Thanksgiving to the US-ers!)

[dapper flame]

I stand by what I said. Every class has to be different than others. Some better at some stuff than others. “Not an intelligent” argument? Nah. Just the logical one.

Besides…if it’s so bad at the content that you say it’s bad at…why aren’t you pushing for a rework if, apparently, ss3 isn’t the answer?

And I threw the work rework lightly. A full rework is impossible now. Best case would be a way to uncouple the class from the skill.

“Worst at pvp”. You try to make emotional arguments. Which is valid. But a bit wasted. Just focus on the areas that it, supposedly, has problems, instead of trying to keep the “one” thing it does well…supposedly

[solid nest]

That is very low damage for BoF rs2. And have to play as squishy BoF with 0 defense when gilgy is supposed to be a tank.

@dapper flame saying that a class should be under powered is not logical nor intelligent by definition of what balancing means. And that isnt what you said the first time lol. And gilgy isnt "better at some content and worse at others." Pvp is the part it is currently good at. And one class shouldnt be op in pvp, pve having diff clases good at diff things? Yea ofc. Pvp? Classes should be able to build to be relevant. There is a reason there are so few gilgs 😂 already said there needs to be a nerf in pvp, doesnt mean it needs to go so far as to make the class useless.

And it is bad at that content lol 😆 0 AL deity beats gilg at those things except raids, 25 AL heretic wins there or 5 AL rs. But ward builds tankier. So play ss3 beoH. AL 20. Frenzy shows its use in raids tho making them ok. Beta they are good from frenzy buffs there.(raids only)

Worst at pvp with these chances isnt "emotional" it is just accurate. Being able to hit is quite important. Especially if you arent tanky enough to take a hit back. Which... gilgy isnt as tanky as deity nor beo using same stuff. Dorito dodge would make them tankier too. And they will be at 1% FMC on all attacks.

Fixing "one hit meta" would require total pvp rework for all. Not gilgy nerf lmao. Btw ss3 will be a diety and dorito move with this, not gilgy.
Again funny how many people comment about the effectiveness of the class when they dont play gilg. 🤔

[dapper flame]

Please point out the sentence I said “under powered”. Why are you using those words? Overpowered? Useless? Worst? Jeez. Just an emotional argument. Hard to try to find common ground. You just take everything to the extremes no matter what.

As how many gilgas play, Odie has that data.

[solid nest]

? Under powered isnt emotional. None of those are "emotional" obviously you arent here for an intelligent discussion as you just go to the same false statements that come from not playing the class, then just try to ignore anything said 😉 and call a reasoned and backed argument "emotional" just because you cant disprove it 🤔 anyways going nowhere. Let people who have played the class test and look at how much of a diff it makes on the win-rates and effectiveness of the class.

Spoiler: last time devs were going to removed FMC they had made the idea of homing shield because they knew it would ruin gilgy without it. 😉

And by all means. He can post it. I see routinely people get to t10 play gilgy, realize it isnt good at most content and switch. Or stop playing.

Hard to find common ground? You dont want common ground. So ofc you wont find it. Already stated nerfs are needed but this is too far. And you just keep with wanting to nerf the entire class into the ground and just being inferior version of the others. All I have been saying is that if dex is required, bring homing shield back in like it was last time. Lowering damage significantly and making gilgy struggle to hit both makes them weak. Miss chance alone makes them far weaker. Whole thing of wanting to change ss3 for gilgy to use it best goes out the window. Which btw is what the posted intent of the devs was. Meant to nerf ss3 being used by beoH and deity, but dex scaling makes it better for them than gilg again.

But anyways you havent used any actual data or any real argument other than "nerf gilgy" and that it shouldnt be as good as other classes 🤔.
Then just trying to slander. So you have fun with that. 😂

[round yew]

#1437493852457140265 message

[sterile monolith]

Part of the reason why I feel it doesn't need much of an accuracy buff. I think it does need to bridge the gap some. SS or no SS. It's still not going to be the 'best' in that scenario.

[solid nest]

Missed that one ty.

But still makes gilgy worse than other classes with that. Pve isnt too relevant for accuracy other than endless... but ss3 requires gear so cant use orn gear really.

Other pve, you dont need much dex to be accurate which is why my focus in on pvp effect.

Frenzy even in beta is only useful in raids and it is great for making gilgy a lot better at them.

Dex isnt really something gilgy can build much, unless you sacrifice all your damage. Pair with m1 nerf and unless you are hitting BoF you arent going to be hitting much. BoF gear is only gear that has good dex and can built into ss effectively. The augments would require gilgy to use a lot of the augment slots that are needed to get damage. BeoH can use those without as much m1 loss since they can do hybrid and hybrid monster. No damage issues, pet can kill second chance. Ranger as a requirement to fix it is a cop out solution too.

@sterile monolith yea this is what I have been saying. Dislike how it ignores the dodge entirely atm but need to have something or gilgy cant compete without having something to boost it up. Bridge the gap some in a middle ground of what it is now in beta.

Also how it is now anything gilg can do, others can use it better.

[dapper flame]

Sorry bro. That’s not how this game works. You think only Gilga players matter here? Other classes can engage and talk about our experience. Cause you sure do like to talk a lot about other classes. But we can’t talk about yours? And if I haven’t used data, that’s fine too. You haven’t either. But whatever. A lot of people don’t really know how to build very well, they just go around asking “what’s the build I need to do this?” Ofc, that’s perfectly fine. Part of the game and all. But understand that’s why I usually raise an eyebrow when someone talks about “results” but I don’t know what build they’re using…

But anyways this conversation is just not going anywhere. With most gilgas…usually the case too. 😒

[solid nest]

Once again, lost half your attack on gilgy to do it with augments, all your survivability using the armor. BeoH can use the augments and keep high m1, gilgy cant.

Another who doesnt play gilgy 🫡

@dapper flame I play all classes and spend most my time on the game testing mechanics and builds for all classes.

Not saying other opinions are irrelevant, saying you have to know the class to comment. And i have used info on classes and related to stats and data. You have not. 😂😂 you have no idea how to use the class and how much this currently effects, and try to act like you do without using it. You try and argue things unrelated to game balance or the discussion. I give a breakdown of areas it effects in loss of turns and damage, m1, relative difference in stats between classes, m1 and m2 diff, how other class passives make them better with it, gear diff with how limited warrior is, and you use nothing. 🤔

[gaunt nova]

Wow a lot of this gear is all classes, I think we should probably look at FMC everywhere.

[solid nest]

Yup fixing with a spec is dumb and btw survivability gone 😄 tank is now a weaker glass cannon. Other classes hit harder as bof, more dex so still 40% miss, and... tankier. Congrats. Weaker version of beoH doing the same thing 🫡 fighting a dex deficit doesnt work too well. Hit weaker than others and be squishier. Gursa only option there. Bye bye herc and base 🫡

If anyone couldn't tell, heretic main that doesnt use gilg right there 🫡

Ikr @gaunt nova 😂 let's get rid of dorito accuracy and rs2 fmc as well then ig 🤔 blood-ray, mana ray too. Apex?

[dapper flame]

So I guess only you can comment on other classes but I can’t? Yup. Sounds legit.

And yeah…you talk about all those things, but not to me. To me you just say underpowered, overpowered and worst.

[sterile monolith]

Flubs man, can you please just step back for awhile? You've made your point and they've made theirs, going around and around in circles just isn't productive at this point.

[pine mirage]

This has already been established as out of scope for this patch and thread... I don't think it helps to keep derailing and bring this up

[solid nest]

No i did say it 😂 gave examples. You read first few words and gave 0 counter points.

I play other classes. You dont know how this one works. And picking out a few words out of a thousand interesting. 😂 already showed you arent here to actually discuss anything or use any real info.🫡 cya.

@sterile monolith oh yea I am the timer tho! They kinda failed to make any point other than just not knowing the class so...

@pine mirage it is perfectly relevant to the discussion

[shell shore]

🫡

[gaunt nova]

Has it? I dont recall hearing that. It wouldnt seem like a huge deal to me to change 4 moves.

[pine mirage]

This is one example when it comes to bloodray, but I've heard something similar from other mods or dangy maybe idk about other fmc

[gaunt nova]

Seemed to me that blood ray was identified because there is already a poll on it that had results indicating most people wanted to be not available t1. So were getting there

[solid nest]

Blood ray was a joke when I mentioned it above since it hits hard but isnt op. Was meming on the FMC. Same with apex XD but rs2 and dorito passive also ignore dex 🧐
Blood ray imo isnt anything crazy since you have to

1. use gear only good for it
2. play heretic corvus in pvp... no second chance.
3. have little to no survivability outside of second chance
4. AI wont use it in defense if you somehow survive.
5. parapet and second chance give people a chance to one shot you pretty well in pvp when attacking since you are squishy and no second chance.
   Get funny hits and hit hard, great since it cant miss nor be pet blocked. But can only use it the first time then scramble for what to do now... if you survive the return hit with at most 20% parapet amity for survival chances.

[pine mirage]

Yeah that's bloodray specifically, and it was polled because you and Bordoadas pushed for a poll. And right after y'all started pushing for removal of all fmc when it's obviously not a part of this patch

[solid nest]

Eh removal of other FMC that is repeatable like rs2 and dorito 50% accuracy... which since 40% miss is max for dex and 50% if dorito... that means you are at bare minimum possible miss chance other than the guaranteed hit attacks. Guaranteed hit attacks each have their own drawbacks though, perfect shot very low m1 and damage overall, bloodray requiring either full flask or entire build geared around it, apex cant be used first turn and severely reduced in pvp... also takes entire bar so at least 2 more turns at max regen rate to refill.

I think bloodray is a meme attack that is cool that it can work well but can be countered. And cant just spam when they survive. 🙂 for reasons above I like seeing heretics able to use it if they want to in pvp tbh. Other flasks arent very useful for one shot meta. This one has heavy glass cannon drawbacks😁

[eternal temple]

What the hell happened in this thread? It's impossible to follow this

[gaunt nova]

Well I think it was pretty well recognized that blood ray was a problem, it was a topic in the heretic thread prior to us even bringing it up. And that's a pretty emerging meta ability.

The current poll result is even probably more damaging to its pvp usage to preserve its pve usage.

RS2 losing fmc would arguably be a buff to its most prominent users. (Prior to blood ray) Almost all high AL heretics in my kingdom we're exclusively using chakram for most fights. Despite the low m1 argument after a certain point you can hit a magnitude that makes it near impossible to zero. I have difficult zeroing chakram of players 50 AL below me, it will certainly evaporate anyone with less AL than the user after a certain point. But anyway, it don't think we can say FMC overall is out of scope when devs haven't said that and half the moves are already being tackled.

[velvet tide]

:/

[solid nest]

A few people who dont play the class wanting to override people who actually do and want to try and push out any concerns for balance the change to accuracy makes for gilg really for the most part.

@gaunt nova yea true lol they are likely to gain accuracy XD since its FMC is higher miss 🤣 but I mean if we are getting rid of it entirely... lol dorito accuracy too :p they have dex for that and decently high dex at that. Would be bigger nerf to gursa than the others 🤣

[pine mirage]

Half the moves? Not sure what you mean, ss is the only thing targeted by this beta. I also don't see how continuing to bring up fmc stuff in the gilga thread makes sense

[shell shore]

I feel like if a classes entire identity solely relies on the power of a single skill, there are bigger issues at play

[solid nest]

Yea but then that has to be fixed rather than just pulling that skill away. If you do one without the other... it causes more issues. Being forced to play a class that is thematically a tank, even if surviving first turn isnt very likely most the time, as squishy to get dex... or having to camp a spec and invalidate the others to fix it... is not fun nor diverse.

Does need a nerf though since it is strong currently, and collateral hitting after turn is over and countering second chance like that is the biggest part of what makes gilgy really strong in pvp in live. A little accuracy lost and m1 loss would do it good. Not a ton of accuracy, build limiting and m1 all together.

[gaunt nova]

I was somewhat hopeful we'd see changes to blood ray given the poll but maybe that was misleading. Imo its still a huge meta concern, but that would only leave chakram and rs2 really. Notably FMC was not part of the original patch either, but these balance discussions are the place to highlight things that are meta warping and should receive changes. To shut it down saying out of scope without devs saying that seems more like we don't want to engage with the argument rather than acknowledge they could use some design changes.

[pine mirage]

I think there's been more than enough discussion about it as a concept and there is 0 benefit in continuing to push for it when the devs have not indicated that it will be addressed by this patch

[sterile monolith]

Hey all, going to lock this thread for a bit, give us all a chance to cool down and go do some testing instead of theorizing. Don't worry, it will be back open soon.

[empty meteor]

Today's patch (it's out right now)

- Reduced the status protection bonus of "Steadfast" from 40% to 35%
- Heretic Corvus: Removed Flasks of Corvus passive, added Steadfast
- Frenzy now provides a 2x dex bonus
- Gilgamesh: Replaced "Steadfast II" with "Steadfast III"
- To balance for the Bestial Bond Bonus changes, reduced some stat bonuses that Bestial Bonds may provide
- Deity: Added "Staying Power"```

[slow dome]

Unlocked post for folks - let's make sure to keep everything on task, and keep emotion out of it as best we can. We won't all agree, but let's focus on productivity!

Most of all: Test test test!

[whole prism]

https://tenor.com/view/useless-ignore-test-gif-13001888

[waxen forge]

cross-posting from #1437494995023036526, since it makes more sense to be in this thread:

also @slow dome , is it fine to reduce the slow mode from 10 minutes to something else? 10 minutes might hinder any valuable feedback (at least for now)

[rare oar]

What’s the thought process behind increasing dex bonus on frenzy? From my experience frenzy is mostly used in raids, where the dex might be an extra benefit but far from a game changer imo. Don’t really see anyone using it in PvP since it costs you a turn and is only available turn 3

[gaunt nova]

Can't see the steadfast III changes, but I think its a decent niche to differentiate base gilga. That being said I do think it is still niche and will see less use than live herc outside of fresh t10.

Dex bonus on frenzy imo does not solve any of the purported issues with gilga dex. Gilga will generally have 2 pain points where they become less accurate: pvp and deep endless. It will be rare for a gilga to hit t3 in pvp when they will be able to cast frenzy. In endless it will be considerably difficult to juggle with other active buffs/health drain from zerk etc.

[slow dome]

In general the theme of this balance patch is aiming to get identity better set, which is something community talks about a lot.
Not all changes may be perfect, but we can play with them and see.
Something like dex coming from Frenzy is so abstract that it may have some really interesting utility, be curious to see what people come up with! And most importantly - it continues to bolster that identity, further working toward a world where Frenzy is cool

Again: test test test!

[slow dome]

To be honest, not been motivated to lower the slowmode here. The thread has been hard to follow as is, often bogged down in lengthy adjacent discussions and endless back and forths. If things are really focused and productive, we can see about reducing it

[haughty crest]

Decreased it to a minute

ah nvm then

[slow dome]

Happy to see how it goes Yoshi, all good. Let's just stay on task folks, and not let differing opinions cause us to take offence.

[whole prism]

Maybe we could make it save charges per floor? Like flasks and apex

[slow dome]

I personally would be for a world where Frenzy operated that way. Build it up, blow through a bunch of floors with precision

[gaunt nova]

If we want to lean into the "Base Gilga resists CC" angle I think it would be nice if base gilga frenzy cleansed.

[blazing tendon]

Going through my testing soon, so still need to try out a lot of where the niche dex may apply. But going back to one of my concepts that I think now becomes super viable with this change:

Frenzy free turn activation on BASE gilga only.

• This gives a (chance) if PvP makes it to turn 3 (And somehow gilgas still has ward) that it could be used for PvP.
• Honestly it would be 1/4 or more times that it would even happen, but if it does, it gives significant power.
• It helps lean into the defensive side and makes it "Hey, try to survive 3 turns"
• Also gives base gilga that chance at endless as well.
• Very niche but potentially be able to activate in dungeons or towers.

It helps lean base gilga to have options for a slight alternative playstyle that leans towards a classic defensive play.

I KNOW that a free turn is a very very limited thing, and probably not in Odie's design headspace for the skill. It started with Realms Avidity for a full free turn, and Dursa/Heretic has a couple on the skills now, but I truly believe that if it's for ONLY Base Gilga, it could be something that solves almost everything. It would be interesting to try it out in Beta anyways if possible.

[slow dome]

Free Frenzy activation on the passive would leave less space for gearing opportunities, to me.

Think Apex start/charge - there's no reason that couldn't exist for gearing with Frenzy too, I think.

It'd be more interesting as well. Hunting down specific gear for PvP scenarios where you want Frenzy activated asap

[gaunt nova]

Frenzy Dex PvP:

Theory: You will only be able to do a 'frenzy swing' on your 4th turn, two turns to charge frenzy and one to cast it.

If you spent all 3 turns just swinging vs a full Dex Dorado, you have a 78.4% chance of hitting, any other class with Dex built you will have a 93.6% chance.

The nexus of fights where you will be able to use frenzy and get some use out of them is very narrow. I'd almost always keep swinging for a KO every time rather than use a turn casting frenzy.

In practice: After doing many fights, all were over by turn 3. Whether by kill or by death. There will also be scenarios where you are hurt enough to not use frenzy due to lower ward, but that did not occur.

I see this as a narrow buff that does not really move the needle. There will be some niche circumstances where it may be useful. One example would be Tower of strength with block amity > Frenzy > Attack, but this build is still vulnerable on the turn it uses frenzy, and a build with enough def to survive 3 turns may not even close the dex gap using frenzy. There may also be some narrow uses in BoF where fights are not decided as fast, but it will still be extremely niche.

[quaint mural]

ususally there is too much offensive pressure in pvp to use turns for buffing (outside of bof)

[blazing tendon]

This is a really interesting point.

While gearing would be very interesting to get bonus, I currently am still only seeing it as "+frenzy bonus" (e.g. Yel gear) Out of curiosity (speaking as a Gilga, not as NFS, and not making any promises!) Would you see any other options for gearing or frenzy tweaks? Because I legitamitely am not seeing how the start/charge would work, unless you mean gear that starts you in frenzy. OR ironically... gear that gives you free frenzy activation (but instead you you choosing if it's a random activation% could actually be detrimental)

Have just base gilga and the free activation I didn't think would perclude gearing options, where Herc would be "technically" stronger at raiding, this would also add a tiny incentive to base and a more unique style.

And this is just discussion and musings over the options! hence the more rambly format. I just want to explore your idea more and get a sense of what direction your mind could think of (Or any other person for that matter! Feel free to jump in!)

[gaunt nova]

Im interested in the design space of diversifying frenzy a bit, but just dont think the dex change is it. Free turn is an interested one and would certainly be powerful, but again dont think it would see much use in PvP unless we could somehow use it earlier.

[blazing tendon]

Just as a litmus test of how far out in left feild I am:

With your testing and all that data there. How much would a base gilga free activation chance PvP...

Aaaaand you just answered that. Are you a mind reader?!?!?

[quaint mural]

i suppose there could be chance of frenzy activiation on taking a hit

[gaunt nova]

If were looking at frenzy as an endless tool I think Ursa should increase frenzy turns by 1 for every attack, so if you never stop fighting its just up.

[quaint mural]

kinda like crit poise for frenzy. What do you think of procing frenzy automatically in pvp when you take a hit (some %)

[blazing tendon]

Both those above can work well.

Potentially maybe each Gilga (Base/Ursa/Herc) has their own unique variation to frenzy?

Edit to elaborate:
Base free turn activation
Ursa attacking extends a turn
Herc: potential activation on being hit

[whole prism]

Frenzy variations would be awesome

Potential when being hit could make PvP more intresting. You'd have the chance to need to only survive until T2 instead of 3 (the possiblities of survive to T2 are probably higher than T3 pretty sure)

[quaint mural]

yeah those are interesting flavors and bring more incentives to use each gilga class rather than revert base to irrelevancy

[blazing tendon]

And literally just smooshed all the active ideas into the one, but cause they were all cool, thought that especially what is above makes each it's own niche, and then it starts to be super cool using the different Gilga's for different content in different weays/gearing them different.

I personally LOVE the concept. add that to the CATACLYSM I suggested for Ursa, and we are perfect. Cause obviously it will all be implemented excactly verbatim as I have said XD

[slow dome]

Before we get too stuck in the land of additional proposals, it'd be awesome if for a period of time we were focused on the current iteration!
Let's play with things, uncover potential and gaps, and go from there

[whole prism]

The patches haven't dropped for me yet

[slow dome]

Re: Gearing
I'm not making a deep point here. Simply saying that there is potential to build gear around existing passives, it's always been something Odie has felt comfortable exploring.
That is to say be open minded with changes, and consider world where the effects do become useful because there is gear that can be designed to make it more impactful, i.e. active sooner

[slow dome]

Yes, have let bossman know. I believe he is heads down at the moment, hopefully it's just working its way through the system and will be here soon enough

[sterile monolith]

If you all could, could we keep the theorizing about how it will feel down and focus more on how it feels in Beta as it stands right now? It will make me happy, pretty please 😄

[slow dome]

Yes, please!
We've just unlocked the thread, and reduced the cooldown. We really don't want to reimplement either of those, thanks

[whole prism]

I'm most stoked about SF3. Base will be a nice counter to status effect builds and would be very great for specific raids (like Pumpkinless with doom and confused if you don't have immunities for either)

[blazing tendon]

But... But... I am a lover and a dreamer!!

On a serious note, running through with my mirror doesn't seem to really change anything with the Raids. Which is currently the "main" prupose of Frenzy.

Trying it out on PvP? I legit can't even get to turn 3. I'm either dead, or won. Even in trying to do some tanky DB pet ward atrocity, I'm either full ward and have the chance to use SS3, or I am not. Unless it's a mystic feather situation, even if it's only 60% chance to hit, statistically the correct decision would be to SS3 rather than activate frenzy and try to hit (Because even if it was 100% hit turn to, 2x60% chances in a time-sensitive PvP would be the better option)

And unsure what to say or do for towers or dungeons... I just don't use or or see using it.

[slow dome]

The changes haven't hit the beta yet, per previous messaging

[whole prism]

The dex buff from Frenzy doesn't seem to be all that exciting really.

PvP you'd mostly be dead before you can even survive long enough

And PvE dex doesn't scale with Ang anymore

That's just my opinion for now though. Might change it later when stuff drops

[blazing tendon]

Apologies, but I seriously missed this. Where is it said it's not hit yet? I thought Odie's post above said it was active now?

[slow dome]

I replied here, let ORN know, and replied in Aethric thread also

You'll notice Gilga is still rocking SFII in beta currently, easiest way to tell

[quaint mural]

I will test the changes when they come available; I do want to briefly defend the theorizers. I think this word, exciting, is what I want to hone in on. Many gilga players in this thread have hundreds of hours playing the class and understand its strengths and drawbacks. Testing is important to verify our intuition and experience against differences and get a better sense of whether or not its good/bad.

For the most recent responders, I assume that seeing the dex buff baked into frenzy looks like a compensation for FMC removal rather than a change to address "identity"; the reaction to theorize immediately is due to this lack of excitement for the new changes. For me, identity in classes is the what makes them fun to play. I don't think these changes address that, hence the reaction to immediately come up with new ideas before testing them.

Future gearing options have certainly proved to flesh out mechanics further in much more interesting ways which is great. But we are being asked to base our opinions on currently advertised mechanics, not future potential.

[slow dome]

Yep, that's all right :)

So once through, test the previously tested scenarios. Understanding it's cited that battles will end before frenzy is active, let's try play with just the Dex discrepancy space.

If I have frenzy active, do I hit more than I miss?

It's a good indicator as to whether levers being played with do something.
That something doesn't have to be determined to be perfect yet, the beta won't finish tomorrow

[gaunt nova]

I think an interesting outcome as someone who runs relatively high dex most of the time is doubling it will almost certainly make everyone have max miss rate against me. As above not sure of the applicability.

To further Enserrics point above, as much as I am testing outcomes, changes like this are pretty measurable just on the numbers. As a more data oriented person, I think that is more determinative than a lot of what we will notice in however much we try to test.

[slow dome]

Yep, it should be noticeable.
If it's a lever that does something (which yes, it should), then there's other moves that can be made toward the goal of solving the dex disparity reality (miss volume).

In general I do hope there's some level of excitement for the cool things coming to Gilga in general through this beta, and we're not all just stuck on this one part of it all! There are other things there, I'm stoked Odie has given Gilga so much attention and love

Steadfast III showing now folks - should be good to go

[sterile monolith]

Thanks Dangy and Odie, appreciate you two.

[sterile monolith]

Short of radical change, this is my only suggestion atm:

Get rid of Guardian Passive, Make it into 10% accuracy, give it to Base Gilga, not Herc.

Right now Herc's SS damage potential is just higher. This gives Base Gilg a use case where you are trading off damage potential for more accuracy. Also, this gives newer Gilga's without the benefit of Ursa and a wide gear selection a little more of a foothold into getting started in T10 cause they aren't dying to Turul as much :p

I am good with the rest of the changes as is.

[whole prism]

I agree with what Strahd said. That way base Gilga would be better for PvP and CS dungoens

While herc is better at PvE (raids bosses etc)

[sterile monolith]

Also, small wish list, some Warrior armor that had Moderate Ward and Moderate Dex that didn't absolutely shred Defenses.

Right now we got Black Dragon gear, which though great Dex, shreds ward
Beguiled Y gear, Great Dex, Shreds Defense
Beguiled X and Beguiled Good Dex, again absolutely shreds ward
Pumpkinless Shreds Defense
Arisen Askr Shreds Ward

It would be nice to have something that gave some ward, some defenses and some Dex, not that it has to be the best at all 3 but nice middle of the road choices would be good if you want us to build Dex. Cause right now it's either build Dex or build defense/ward.

But that can always be addressed in some new gear or what have you

[blazing tendon]

Understood and somewhat in line with Strahds thinking if there is only to be minor tweaks and not a deeper dive.

I do however strongly feel that now that Gilga has been given Frenzy, it makes sense to smooth out the skill and add it to our toolkit. By doing that is also given more options for levers to be adjusted that is not solely gear based that then affects all who use warrior gear.

For instance in the wishlist you just posted Strahd (Which I agree with, with the small caveat that we need some defence shredded gear for swash) Any increases or making viable for Gilga will cause problems due to how other classes can multiply on those so much further.

Hence why while we are in the Beta, could be opportunity to try out the options, like the Deities discussed their issue with losing steadfast and options around that, and the discussion that introduced FMC as part of this Beta which wasn't in the original script. But yes, I understand and won't further beat that horse.

TESTING

So most of my raid gear now is swashy with pumpkinless. Frenzy it feels like when active we are a bit more dodgy. Trying it out more with the Yel gear, but even in writing things down, I don't think I have enough data to go by anything other than feels.

For PvP... Testing against myself with 847 dex setup on the fresh make beta character: no surprise, both sides hit very consistently with the same dex. When frenzy is activated that dex differential you could feel. guessing about 30% miss? But this was only over about 10-20 data points.

And not bias going in, but it did confirm something I wondered: Even with only Ward of Light and SS3 as one of the last skills to try and reduce jit's usage, actually getting enough ward to be ABLE to use frenzy was somewaht a challenge. Maybe only half the fights while actively trying and rigging the skills would I be able to activate it.

So the double dex DOES work with the frenzy as a theoritical confirmation. However actual utilitzation of it is a more complex conversation (Which as I understand there isn't much appetite from NFS to engage in other than the feedback already submitted above)

[quaint mural]

echoing that I like this suggestion.

[gaunt nova]

Yeah agreed, I think something like that would help, as today's changes don't seem to move the needle that much. It would make sense to put accuracy on the lower damage gilga variant.

I really think the frenzy variant ideas above are really cool and worth exploring. With current iterations, I think frenzy will still largely be limited to a raiding tool. As far as identity, things like Frenzy, CD, Shields are a much more interesting identity for gilga than steadfastest. So hope something like this could still be in scope for this patch.

[sterile monolith]

We have a consensus of 4.5 people. Let's push it live tomorrow so we can use it for Wild Hunts.

[quaint mural]

feels like 5 people play gilga

[blazing tendon]

Get Flub, Quiet, and Thornius and I think that is the entirety of the Gilga Beta testers in agreement XD

Though not sure what Yoshi says on it.

Either way, would be hilarious to use for wild hunts, but I am guessing February release for anything live. One of the reasons I am seeeing if we can poke other levers

[neon bramble]

So I tested the compensation of FMC on SS, for the dex bonus on frenzy. There were no situations where I could safely use frenzy because I would otherwise die. We talking about pvp one shot meta right? Or does this dex bonus have nothing to do with FMC removal?

[eternal temple]

I'm seeing this discussion about how many players are running Gilgamesh, and it's funny because in our player group (I'm Brazilian) there are only three Gilgas at the moment, and it's a group with A LOT of people, so I guess the information is accurate haha.

About the beta, I'm still trying to get mine to work. I've tried reinstalling it several times and even had hope that it would work after this update, but no luck. I think I'll try it on another phone.

[blazing tendon]

Just to be sure, Which app are you installing? Is it a separate app to the regular orna one?

[gritty bone]

very pleased with the added dex to frenzy. resolves pve concerns. not sure how it would work in pvp, but I'm gearing for dex in that scenario so I don't take the new bonus into account. will likely be dead before I can activate frenzy in pvp. (in other words, I don't rely on frenzy for pvp, I don't think it was meant for pvp, gilga has other bonuses for pvp)

[eternal temple]

Yeah, that app exactly

I’ve tested it several times already, and it used to work normally before, but one day it just stopped working and I still haven’t figured out why

[blazing tendon]

🙁 Hopefully the reinstall will work, otherwise in the general channel, maybe try asking for help?

[quaint mural]

what scenarios in pve has the added dex to frenzy resolved for you?

[strong rose]

I'm excited for Gilga changes and agree with most everything here. I like the idea of modifications to frenzy, but like many were saying, it's in a tough spot for anything other than raiding. The turn economy of needing to wait two turns and then use a turn to activate it isn't motivating in most short content, and oftentimes battles don't last long enough to use it anyway. Or you're dead in PVP before the button even lights up. I am always excited to read about new ideas that help solve pain points and just sound really cool (there are some really great ideas in this thread) but I definitely see the value in testing the things we have before adding on. Though I do hope some of the ideas ya'll have come up with are considered down the road. Love the Gilga community!

[rare oar]

Same results I’m seeing. Doesn’t solve acc concerns in PvP, isn’t really a noticeable change in PvE besides a slight boost to dodge chance in raiding (which, while welcome, isn’t really game changing)

The proposed changes to accuracy (via homing shield or something similar) would solve PvP concerns, while frenzy variants between classes would be super interesting and allow each gilga class to fulfill different niches

[stoic yacht]

What I've noticed with the dex boost is only a slight increase to accuracy and dodge for raids/dungeons but I have yet to see it be of any use in pvp

[empty meteor]

Personally I don’t think Gilga needs to be at the forefront of Ward, Spiked Shield damage, and accuracy in PvP all at once. There need to be a trade off

Dex was always supposed to be the trade off - Gilga is a big armored warrior that slot swings big weapons and may miss. It’s an RPG archetype. Each class has its lesser stats

Perhaps we got spoiled with fixed miss chance for a while

[gaunt nova]

I think the issue is a lot of gilga don't feel tanky in the current meta as def and res are easily overcome. If not some sort of accuracy option maybe we can lean into that tank side with more modern tools like chance to block when wielding a shield

[quaint mural]

I was typing something else up but, do you see gilga as the forefront of ward post SS nerfs due to other classes needing to change their pvp set ups as well?

[empty meteor]

Statistically it is the class that dies the least, so we do know it’s meeting a good chunk of the archetype

Gilga by average has the most Ward of the main classes, so I do see it at the forefront of Ward

[quaint mural]

I know you have said this for years but that statistic has never made me feel easy. On one had you have a much bigger picture from a data perspective on whats happening, but we have little insights as to finer grain detail as to what that means... Okay average most ward that is fair.

[gaunt nova]

May also need additional survival tools in a world where other characters avoidance affords them additional turns to kill the gilga

[empty meteor]

Our personal experiences will always weigh heavier than any statistic anyone tells us, I get it

[empty meteor]

Most would say the others turns part about CD, to be fair

[quaint mural]

this is true i understand the fallacy of anecdotes im just curious if that death stat has AL ranges behind it...but maybe it makes no difference. Different topic. Is there any interest in frenzy variations between the 3 gilga classes?

[gaunt nova]

I'll agree that gilga is pretty hard to take down in pve, but even with 100-150 advantage gaps many people can kill me t1 in pvp.

[empty meteor]

It’s an extra tool to kill when survival passives proc

[empty meteor]

Maybe? But probably out of scope for this patch. I feel like it already casts a wide enough net for each Gilga to make use of it

[gaunt nova]

I agree that CD is a great tool but its a difficult feeling as the 'tanky' class when the tanky parts of our kit seemed to be outweighed by other forms of avoidance like pet block and dodge.

[quaint mural]

okay thanks for answering. Do you think the latest changes are the closest to where you would be seeing them ship?

[empty meteor]

Second Chance saves more T1 encounters than either of those, without a doubt

There is no pet block or t1 dodge that grants 50% chance to survive

[empty meteor]

Only Strahd knows

I’m just heir to troll

[quaint mural]

can you fix this grammar before my OCD flares.

[empty meteor]

ok

Their; is that better ?

[quaint mural]

now i know why strahd drinks

[gaunt nova]

Agreed but a lot of classes will have access to both. Our equivalent of avoidance is our ward/hp stat and if falls flat in a lot of scenarios

[quaint mural]

One more thing. Can you mirror me please 🎄

[sterile monolith]

https://tenor.com/view/james-franco-wait-what-wut-wtf-nani-gif-25479769

[empty meteor]

I am no longer a mirrorer

[sterile monolith]

https://tenor.com/view/laugh-out-loud-laugh-ridiculous-hilarious-lolz-gif-17376550074772904877

[blazing tendon]

The main thing for me, and why I have been trying to post ideas and solutions: I am fine with the dex gap, as long as we have something that feels on equal power to other classes.

I am unsure if you were serious in your (much) earlier comment that we have BoF and Frenzy for boosting attack values. The issue with that statement is:
-BoF by definition means we don't have defence + are spec locked
-Frenzy as discussed is essentially raid only. And as I understand from the conversation (I was away from the game when it was implemented) was meant to mitigate the huge raid damage loss that Gilga suffered.

I truly respect that you can't do everything, and that changes take coding time, and this isn't really on your priority list ||Or realistically something that you even want to deal with || But with the current state of Orna, the extreme attack and damage builds that you simply can't build enough def/res on to be practical, the lack of access to gilga attack, etc I see that as taking the frenzy concept, combining it with your statement that Gilga has frenzy for attack, And smoothing out the identity of the 3 different Gilga's.

Now that I have said that to you directly, I will cease (for this beta) asking further, but as long as it can be a consideration, I appreciate any time or thoughts you spend on it. Obviously would be phenomenal if we get the chance to try it out this Beta (simply it would help solve everything in one feel swoop imho) But any time you spend thinking about QoL for the class is greatly appreciated.

I want to iterate one last time, thank you for everything you already have in the patch, the frenzy improvements which will help the raiding going forward, and the steadfast to herc, and tweaks to Ursa. All of this is very very appreciated. I will now spend more time trying to get my Beg Y helm! Thanks for hearing me out

[solid nest]

Yea same. Because using same gear at same AL, deity has higher base pools and starts with full ward and has high def/res. Lower damage atm, but high dex.

Gilgy is mostly crazy good on offense. Most other classes have higher base pool totals for ward to base off of, which means if they use the same gear, they get more ward. But, CD is crazy op for offensive damage. But the tanky part is more based on what people are building.

I use defense gear, almost everyone i fight in pvp is using 0 def gear. It makes a massive difference in pvp.

Also if wanting to have the damage and cd that makes the class really strong, you lose a lot of that ward, same as the sacrifice a lot of others do to gain more damage with ward builds. If wanting defense to make sure your ehp t1 is enough to survive, you lose more.

But if you have 170-200k ward, chances are it isnt boosting survival on t1.

Gursa is a different story. It has auto-counter in live, very high hp pool, and you can get enough ward with damage builds or ss3 builds to have max t1 ehp from ward and deal good damage. A lot of that is being nerfed in beta here (thankfully), so this will skew data by a ton if using data from live.

[fierce marsh]

Uhhh this patch doesn't concern aethric yet right? 👉👈

[haughty crest]

From a quick look in the aethric beta, yes it does

[arctic dust]

Instead of lowering atk on greaves can it lower Dex instead?

Personally I feel like lowering atk is a bit harsh tbh

[whole prism]

I mean we can't lower what we don't have

Not saying that gilgamesh doesn't have options for dex. Just the options are very limited and all are locked behind events pretty sure

[blazing tendon]

I kinda prefer the dex part tbh. Adds to the PvE considerations and builds. But just more so as a thought. Not something I would strongly argue for one way or another.

Just means pauldrons will be the go to for endless. Though dex being lowered on endless would equally suck.

Yeah dunno. Don't have any good answer. Crit chance? Frenzy damage? CDC? Whatever else is chosen may not really be used so for the sake of it, maybe ATK really is the best option?

[sterile monolith]

I know the current iteration doesn't hit some of the things we might like to see addressed but how do we feel about going live with what exists in the Beta right now.
Thumbs up, down?

[whole prism]

So far I'm happy with everything in the beta.

Could use some tweaks on some stuff the community complains about (I have nothing to complain about so I can't give examples)

[whole prism]

Maybe decrease ward regeneration? I mean that's an option

[sterile monolith]

My take on many of the 'tweaks' at this point is that the studio has heard our concerns. We might see some small changes back and forth to see if we can find a balance point but we aren't going to see any drastic changes to the framework anytime soon.

[blazing tendon]

So answering to this, but also the "going live in Beta"

• I think the tweaks of the things we discussed are amazing, and would love for all of it to go live.

• I get that there will not be drastic changes in the framework, but I can't help but feel a bit "bait and switch'd" about the FMC.

• Back when the poll was being advertised, the main proponent was saying in all channels, pointing to a quote from Dangy, that Gilga + Accuracy for SS yes, would be taken into consideration. I wonder how the poll would go now that the 63% that said yes, and the 20%ish that said "Yes but..." if the reality of "yeah it's just straight up removed"

• This was something actively campaigned for AFTER the Beta has started, is now in Beta, and discussions for solutions is pretty well shut down because it may require more changes to balance does feel a bit more sour, and somewhat deceptive (though I am sure not intentionally). I think that is really the main pain and vocal point raised by Gilga's here, and all solutions discussed have been essentially around that.

So that aside, yes, pre-FMC change within the beta, all the rest we were relatively happy with. I am not sure anything got addressed in the concerns or original conversation before FMC sidetracked... well pretty well everything. So there are still that original list with thoughts/suggestions from the community, but if the alternative is "Take it or leave it" Yeah, for me it's definitely "Take it", and hopefully be able to address in future some of the thoughts shared in this thread.

So yeah, if all changes go live as is, and nothing chaging for SS FMC, then essentially nothing else really for Gilga's to say in my opinion.

[sterile monolith]

To be fair to the studio, we did get double dex on Frenzy. It might not be the accuracy fix you want (or need) but it is something.

[slow dome]

Fwiw, the implementation of FMC was to cover the missing issue for Gilgas in all content, and these days it doesn't seem to be a core issue in PvE anymore. I think the point I was making is highly covered, with the obvious notes around PvP remaining.
We can monitor and make additional changes as time goes on I reckon, but really pleased with the amount of Gilga tweaks in this beta

[rare oar]

In what scenario is this useful though? Can’t use it in dungeons, towers or PvP, as fights will usually be over before it’s relevant. PvP is the main pain point and I’ve never clicked frenzy there

[sterile monolith]

Well it does make BoF Spiked shield raiding much dodgier

I actually get missed by raids in the beta now which almost never happens in live

[rare oar]

Gilga honestly feels weaker after all the changes than in live. GUrsa is being gutted (auto-counter had to go, but I don’t really see the point in removing ward skill usage from a warrior class while still enabling other classes to be great at it). PvP defense will suffer because you’ll no longer be using the high eHP celestial, having to rely on the classes that have lower base hp and that are pretty much forced to run low defense BoF.

I think there’s a lot of potential in the changes, and in a lot of the things proposed in this thread, but after all the testing I’m honestly scared if this is the state we end up seeing in live

Raiding does feel dodgier, but damage output is slightly lower vs live. Even though it might feel more consistent with the dodges, I’m not sure improving raiding was what we needed 😅

[quaint mural]

I think these changes can go live but i dont think it should be the 100% scope of changes that are delivered on gilga in this beta. I think Gursa should retain ward power at least, to some lower extent than the other gilgas

unrelated, but I think steadfast on gilga will be more valued if anguish 2.0 modifiers get a second look at some point in the future. Just like splitting up crit rate from crit damage has been talked about, if status effect %s were divided out rather than lumped all together it would be a stronger passive

[gaunt nova]

Agree, if the intent of this patch is to nerf gilga slightly then I think this is probably a nerf that I can live with. If this patch was to alter the identity of gilga in comparison to other classes who use SS, I don't think its ready.

1. Frenzy- The usability changes are great and will probably make gilga raiding better; however, frenzy was already supporting gilga raiding to be pretty strong and I dont see it receiving much use elsewhere. Would prefer some of the variants discussed above explored.

2. SS is largely seeing a damage reduction across the board, and is seeing a larger reduction at higher anguish due to the M1 changes.

3. Identity changes - Initially slated for larger SS reductions and steadfast removal across other classes. The reduction to spiked shield has somewhat narrowed, many classes received their steadfast back, and statuses are less dehabilitating compared to live. I don't really feel steadfastest is a strong gilga identity, and would prefer it lean into one of the other options. The things that differentiated Gilga on Day 1 of the beta are no longer serving that purpose significantly. I think there are many scenarios where deity and beo will still outperform gilga at SS.

4. SS FMC - I think removal is good and something that I advocated for, but understand other gilgas concerns about being pidgeonholed into BOF and less defensive builds. I still think some form of true mititgation would be helpful in the absence of FMC. Its also frustrating that classes that have access to more dex generally maintain their FMC primaries, though maybe a topic for next beta.

5. Ursa - In live I only use Ursa for PVP Defense and Non/Low anguish horde. I will likely no longer be using it as a defender, but since Herc is now stronger defender and comfortable to sit on for other content, I dont feel like I will be losing more often. Though I can understand how this would be frustrating for heavy ursa users.

[quaint mural]

agreed on all points. This seems like a balance patch for gilga, not an "identity patch". Which is fine, but does not achieve the original intended differentiation for gilga as a distinct class in our meta.

BOF is already a necessary pigeon hole to scale damage for content difficulty. I do think this is a problem all non-magic classes and likely a future issue to work on.

Gursa is the clear loser in this patch. Auto-CA removal in pvp is a good thing to reduce the lack of counterplay the passive creates, but as others have vocalized it was a good layer of protection in our one shot meta. Retaining it in PvE is welcomed. Gursa losing ward power (which as I said earlier, I think it should retain in some format being a gilga variant) means it loses access to all spiked shield builds effectively reducing its current variety of builds. Two hand builds remain inferior (especially with additive bonuses) to dual wield builds. The CD passive increases are welcome but not significant; we can achieve the same bonus by farming new collat amities.

I know it is out of scope but the change to frenzy (dex increase) means that each gilga class could have variations. Perhaps Gursa could leverage a change here as well.

[fallen ginkgo]

Honestly im super simple minded and not too sure what a lot of the conversation here is about 100% or what changes are actually being made (im not a beta player) however i just wanted to say im looking forward to what the devs do with the class and super excited to get my hands on it when it eventually goes live whether it turns out better or worse, does anyone have a rough idea of when the changes are actually going live?

[solid nest]

Yea i agree with Geppu, though ursa still gonna habe high survivability since they have 10k more base hp. Which does do a lot. But extra starting ward is really nice

[fierce marsh]

Auto counter would really hurt to lose, as I noticed gursa can't really scale damage high enough to beat anything with high ward or 30+ als, while not being an effective tank.

[whole prism]

The M1(or whatever the SS3 dmg nerfs were to) nerfs effect gilga too right? Just making sure

[sterile monolith]

Yes

[blazing tendon]

Been thinking about this probably way too much over the last few days. It's really hard to properly comment because I don't know what the data is showing. Quick question is you are able to answer: is the data based on

• Overall death % of all classes?
• death % of a class by class basis
• does this include content type?

You have a lot of things that even within those questions can drastically alter the outcome. Simple examples:

• RS and deity redlining for boosted stats if too greedy will die more often (in comparison gilga doesn't always get the boost where we are using that ward that boosts it, and our boost is much less. So wouldn't it make sense if people die more when they Gamble more?)
• AL and experience level: mentioned by group earlier but Gilga right now tends to almost be a niche itself. Those who regularly use it are fairly experienced, or people tend to not transition over until they have gear/experience

As for the second point of archetypes:

• Orna has evolved over the past 3 years.
• Deity was the stat stick that could equip equipment. This is why they have the most Ward previously decks and overall best stats. However that was boring and rightfully so and they have more yet are keeping King of the defense, resistance, (no longer dex but still high) and ward, all with with high attack.
• Beo was pet class with all around stats and some hybrid. However game scaling and modern approach sees less pet use and more hybrid focus.
• Ward and EHP is the modern measure of durability. Defense and resistance has gone to the wayside due to the weapons are so that can help scale attack. An Arsenal which Gilgamesh tens do not have as much access to. Outside of BoF which all bully classes can use for scaling, and frenzy. And we have already been over the issue with Frenzy given that effectively it can only be used in raids.

This leads to the main reason why I think you're seeing so much discussion and out of scope concepts being thrown around. It is because introducing FMC removal and making the decks are type where we can't hit as well especially in PvP then raises all of the issues and concerns that come up with defense and resistance and Ward plus attack scaling.

I believe that's why a lot of people here feel exploring a frenzy path could be a good solution ( not going to get into that here) and the fact that wall yes we are the top three in board we still are not number one and we are definitely bottom of the barrel for attack. So why do others get to have the high Ward the high accuracy and the high or higher damage than gilga when we will take that huge sacrifice to accuracy.

Overall I believe we all have a vision and pathway to a solution. It's simply that for this beta patch it's a hard pill to swallow that you introduce an additional pain point that was originally out of scope from the alpha yes we need to be patient and wait an undetermined point in time in order to see through the new balances.

For the most part most gilgas tend to be very patient. It comes with a territory. So for us an acknowledgment that Frenzy or attack issues or anything mentioned here is a thing that will be looked into even if it's not this patch, I think that would go a long way and hopefully can continue discussion in 2026 around your other orna projects

[whole prism]

Is this intended or a bug?

[sterile monolith]

Intended, The m1 was reduced (then raised again some) and Ward Power was raised on gilga and Herc, which is an M2 increase. The end result is that M1 got an across the board decrease but Gilga got more M2 to put it above most other classes.

Beo H is still a juggernaut with it simply because of offensive stat scaling, but are in the same boat as Gilga with misses since FMC is gone.

[whole prism]

Okay thanks strahd

[sterile monolith]

Outside the box thought:

What do we think of a Frenzy that is a passively activated ability with no hp and a reduced ward (from live) cost per turn. Even if the power had to be tuned down I think it would be much more fun to how GIlga plays right now.

Like a 20% chance everytime your ward took damage with a 20% chance to fade or some other appropriate percentages. Or alternatively it could be tied into Collateral Damage somehow triggering off collateral damage procs or filling up a meter.

I think it could lead to some fun burst moments and add a little unpredictability to a class that right now is very turn economy hampered.

As usual with my crazy ideas, I can't say we'll get any traction but it just seems like an interesting mechanic to me and wanted to get all 3 of your opinions.

[whole prism]

I have alot of silly ideas that probably won't get added becuase my silly mind thinks of OP stuff

[fierce marsh]

When I first unlocked warrior class,frenzy reminded me of a berserk status in another game that increased damage by a percent every turn but left the warrior unable to cast any preps or cures for debuff

Frenzy as of live is just a debuff to me, it takes ward, leaving you with less to tank with, while increasing your atk by few. Now that it takes ward and HP in beta, it's a greater debuff in my eyes, from a pvp perspective

[fallen ginkgo]

Frenzy is really good as long as you are only kind of half building towards CD, if you have no CD adorns or anything then its not great considering the ward consumption, and if you have too much CD adorns it becomes a 50/50 as to whether its even worth using frenzy due to the ward consumption altho from what ive heard as a non-beta player, the changes to frenzy in the beta rn seem pretty promising and closer to what a berserker type ability would be like 🤷‍♂️

[fallen ginkgo]

It could be cool to have a bar fill up but itd be interesting how the devs would implement that as a new idea without copying deity or heretic too much, like if frenzy was a bar and once filled u could access some cool berserk type buffs that increase CD or chance for a period of time (so current frenzy) or other buffs that reduce ward consumption or increase defence, or even an attack that let you do just one singular heavy CD hit, thats a great idea tbh, i like it

[blazing tendon]

Like a lot of the outside the box thoughts, yeah I think this could also work.

You nailed the head on the hammer with the statement that turn economy is becoming a massive burden. I honestly think that the frenzy ability or concept could be greatly expanded and have much more use than just a raid damage substitute for the last spiked shield formula change.

So yeah, could be nifty, the other ideas of class based variations are also nifty. But not to put a damper on the mood but if we have been told no, not gonna happen this patch, I would rather you not excite me with new and interesting concepts

Then again.... If Odie was giving you as much power as he stated above.....

[sterile monolith]

Who knows, maybe I have all the power and all I have to do is whisper it in his ear like some lovecraftian eldritch horror

[blazing tendon]

This I guess is where I am a bit confused....

We had increased ward power to compensate for the m1 nerf. Is the m1 nerf is less (let's say only 10% as opposed to 25%) Herc gets I think a tiny boost up to 100? And base stays the same, and Ursa gets wiped. So I don't know how we went from "trying to keep our damage stable" to "meh, it's a nerf for yah" on top of the FMC nerf.

But yay less ward drain for raids (right as I ironically am almost to the point of making it moot. Just gotta Regen 200k ward a turn with a pool of 1M obviously and thusly I become an Disciple of Abyss.)

[sterile monolith]

Honestly I'm not sure what you are saying. M1 got nerfed hard, Gilga and Gilga Herc got big ward power boosts. Them m1 nerf got eased a bit and the ward power bonuses got dropped a bit to compensate and keep damage, stable-ish.

[blazing tendon]

"dropped a bit to compensate"

Base 50% -> 100% -> 50%
Herc 75% -> 150% -> 100%
Ursa 50% -> 0% -> 0%

That statement is only true for herc. Base gilga is now just straight up the same with the m1 nerf. And Ursa is being kinda told not to play with spiked shield

[sterile monolith]

I know several people have problem with that last point but as Gilga is so keyholed into Spiked Shield, I can't bring myself to give a shit if Ursa can't use it effectively. Breath of fresh air to me personally.

[blazing tendon]

For me it's nice when I am running towers or dungeons and something like Ymir, zerk nidhogg etc comes up. I do t use spikes shield OFTEN on Ursa, but it's nice to pop off in those kinds of situations.

It's where I get confused I suppose. We are being told that Gilga is best user of spiked Shield (which I am still not sure is true), but then it gets nerfed across the board minus Herc, when we already are struggling to get attack values up, unless we Pidgeon hole into BoF.

But I think we are talking slight circles. We generally agree but have varying opinions on that one bit, which meh. In the end worst case is we wait 6-12 months and our turn will come up in the Dev cycle again.

[sterile monolith]

Think of a world where Spiked Shield isn't your best (or only) choice to use vs that zerk Ymir. Believe me, I understand your frustrations with the class. We play the same one.

I'm not sure what is going to happen yet, after all beta values change all the time but the community voted pretty heavily that they wanted Herc to be the best user of SS and Ursa to be the best user of CD. Right now I'd say that is very true.

[blazing tendon]

Oh 100% and I also agree that I would love more options.

But right now the only path I see is either doing something silly like doubling gilga attack value (please god Odie, don't do that, the target and hate we will get will be unbearable) or more sensibly figure out solutions around frenzy, and making that something that we can use in towers or dungeons more smoothly and not worry if losing a turn pressing that button is a death sentence (assuming we made it to turn 3)

So back to the full circle: yeah, having something fun there, then having other options would be super cool! But until then.... I am going to keep disappointing myself with that Beg Y helm not dropping

[fallen ginkgo]

U mean this beg Y helm?

[fierce marsh]

Hmmmm

[fallen ginkgo]

I just need a beg axe X in red 😭

-# So devs if ur reading hook me up 😉

[empty meteor]

[fallen ginkgo]

Worth a shot 🤷‍♂️

[blazing tendon]

I legit appreciate that, especially because it's hilarious to pretend it's not just code and RNG, but Odie specifically programing drops for people.

Which btw many thanks for that 198 Beg Y helm Odie!! I knew you programmed it to test to see if I would stick it out and by golly the 198th kill got me a 198.

Tell me that wasn't just a coincidence!! Just try!

[sterile monolith]

https://tenor.com/view/matrix-morpheus-coincidence-providence-gif-22366085

[fallen ginkgo]

Fr, just got my ornate beg axe X, its definitely programmed 😂

Only 186% tho

[stark venture]

I definitely agree frenzy needs something. Maybe lose the CD chance bonus, since full CD damage builds already have 100% chance (also plz add some ward to black dragon armor lmao)

Not a gilga main btw, I really tried to get into Gursa, but found it really lacking on a decent aoe for towers compared to beo and deity

[rare oar]

Happy to see Ursa didn’t make the first batch of releases despite what was said, hopefully that means we might see some changes

[sterile monolith]

What changes are you looking for to Ursa?

[whole prism]

A replacement for crest of lyonesse would actually be pretty nice imo atleast

As a 20% stat increase isn't that big imho. Could replace it with CALAMITY or an entirely new passive

[rare oar]

Im still not a fun of it losing ward power. So id either like to see that reverted or see some more power put into it if its expected to be the 2h class, given most 2h weapons are subpar. One of the suggestions I made previously was giving it the same crit dmg multiplier that realm and heretic have. It’s meant to be the thief-like gilga so it seems thematic

[sterile monolith]

Not arguing for or against a crest replacement but 20% is nearly half of Bastille's max stat boost and it's active pretty much all the time if you play.

It definitely is a big bummer that it doesn't apply to pvp though.

[whole prism]

Yeah that's my problem with it mostly

[empty meteor]

fwiw Ursa is now the CD class, so i don't think we want to lead players into also trying to play it in the ward power mode

[rare oar]

That’s fair. Still, if we’re not using SS for CD builds, the only ones I’ve found to be even somewhat useful are crit builds. But to build into both crit and CD you need to take a hit to your attack with bristles. Ursa is the only class I was able to get away with running oracle, I’d rather not see it get pigeonholed into having to play BoF like it seems might happen with the other gilga classes

[gaunt nova]

If thats the direction I think a stat passive based on CD procs would be cool. Wouldnt move the needle that far in current PvP meta, but would be a nice dungeon/endless option to stack early in a dungeon

[slow dome]

We'll get through the bulk of the stuff sitting there that is less contentious, then move onto Gilga :)
There's a bit less consensus here, so it'll likely be last cab off the rank

[stoic yacht]

What if GUrsa did like an echo effect with CD after a certain % chance or after X CD procs

[whole prism]

You mean like critical chain but for collateral procs instead?

[gaunt nova]

More so like redline type passive that stacks % by hitting CD. X% per proc up to Y& cap

[whole prism]

So like DAra apex but collateral proc?

[gaunt nova]

Yeah something like that

[fallen ginkgo]

Very valid, was hoping for gilga update soon as non beta player but seeing this chat its probably best that it takes longer 😂

[fallen ginkgo]

Just as a little question from someone not in the beta, if ursa is becoming the CD class does that mean CD will be less powerful with herc and base than it is now? Or theyll stay the same and ursa will just become better with it than them? If herc and base get CD nerfed then what would be the expected outcome for builds to look like on those classes? Sorry for the bombardment 😅

[whole prism]

There isn't any CD nerf to base or herc afaik. GUrsa just got buffed

[pine mirage]

Give GUrsa 2.5x crit multiplier

[empty meteor]

GUrsa got a new CD5 passive to make it the best

[fallen ginkgo]

Oooooo interesting, i dont particularly enjoy towers but ig i gotta farm up getting gursa then finally 😭😂

I look forward to whatever changes end up happening as a whole, best of luck in trying to please everyone with gilga changes, and i mean that wholeheartedly, this chat was a mess a week ago 🤣

[quaint mural]

dont underestimate this passive. unless its a bug, it works very well in anguish 2.0. It doesnt work in pvp but gursa has a huge hp boost for this. Main issue for me is ward power loss which I hope it could retain in a form lesser to other gilgas

[whole prism]

.

@quaint mural

[crimson bay]

Hey guys been gilg for a long time and mostly gursa and was chatting in the discussion post a few months back, somehow I just noticed this chat so gotta catch up here

[quaint mural]

thats fine. I'm just reiterating my opinion. if its the CD class now then thats what it is

[sterile monolith]

Alright, in an effort to try and congeal some thoughts, going to run a mini poll based on various Ursa feedback I've seen thus far. Posting it here shortly

[whole prism]

Poll time

[sterile monolith]

Feel free to link out to every Gilga player you know has tried Beta

[ivory crescent]

I don't have beta access but it makes sense to me that Gursa will become purely a Crit / CD class rather than a third SS3 option. What would a BoF high accuracy build look like with turn 1 ward active? Skythe allows you to use two augments that are not crit which could cover ward and accuracy. Or a high dex / accuracy bow with broken Hyperion for ward turns? But it might be impossible to get to 100% CD with broken head gear, I don't know the stats for CD5.

[sterile monolith]

keep in mind, right now I am not asking this in any attempt to balance the class with OTHER classes. I am asking what people who have experience witht he class and who have actually tried the beta changes think and feel. This is only to gauge where people stand right now. Let the studio worry about if a feature can be implemented and maintain balance please.

[empty meteor]

What? You’re not going to balance everything for me too?

[sterile monolith]

I can't even balance on one foot these days, so probably not the best idea. But hey I am game if you are 😉

[crimson bay]

Like @ivory crescent said gursa could become a crit CD 2h class which I absolutely love if it did. That being said would it possible or viable for some of those options in the poll to have something to do with crit?

[blazing tendon]

Very valid opinion and thoughts! Just want to reassure you that I don't disagree.

But for me, rather than having crit based abilities (like RS or Heretic) I would rather lean to their unique reason to be GUrsa. I think that sentiment around here may be why you are not seeing an option for crit, because upping power via crit ability has already been done on other classes.

One thing for the 2H power option that was discussed previously is rather than a 2H power bonus, is make the 2H bonus like Herc's Sheild where it boost the stats/abilities of the weapon you are weilding. That would also help even out some of the power drop compared to dual weilding! Thats just one example of how to get something out of it (even potentially crit based) with a slightly different and more open ended approach

But it is fine to want a crit option, just trying to explain why it may not be there 🙂

[ivory crescent]

I like the sound of a 2H weapon stats boost 🙂 Anything unique to the class feels like the right direction.

[crimson bay]

To be honest. One of the reasons I love ursa is that it plays with a 2h bonus

So if we want to lean even more into the 2h bonuses I'm definitely for it, we don't have to play around crit if we can just have raw 2h power, Im even running zwei for the extra bonus

[neon bramble]

Pitty i can only select 1 option, quite limiting.

😂 🤣

[fallen ginkgo]

I agree honestly, i have no experience with ursa but tbh the only reason i havent got it already is cause of how underwhelming it is, idk if its still happening but the frenzy changes making it more useable would/will be a great change to gilga as a whole and if ursa becomes the main CD class itd be nice to see CD become as strong as crit but still different, i dont think ursa needs crit builds as like you said, other classes already have that and personally i feel a lot of builds in the game are too alike, having CD capable of performing as well as crit on ursa would make it viable while still giving it a unique build to go for imo

[fierce marsh]

Yeah, what he said

[sterile monolith]

Alright, so tell me why you don't think CD is as strong as Crit? It works on all damaging skills, you can build it to 100% chance like crit. You can build it to over 100% damage. The only base difference I see in power is that Crit starts at 100% damage for non heretic and Realm. But to me that's offset by how it works with 2nd chance.

I'm always curious of other's viewpoints though. The only thing I don't love about CD right now is the summon turn order bug that happens with it. Go Riftfall 😄

[fallen ginkgo]

Honestly i think its very close, i just personally feel like its not as reliable as crit on other classes, i will admit im not the most geared player and havent been playing long so i dont have all the stuff necessary to make a perfect CD build however from experience just the idea that i feel i need a perfect CD build to compare it to my imperfect crit builds on other classes is my main point.

I think it could be to do with the fact that crit is a bit of an all rounder in the sense that its great for all content and doesnt need much effort to work with whereas at least from my experience with SS and CS builds, the downtime of regaining ward or hp massively slows down content, i know this can be easily offset by using things like blackened kerb eyes with mammoth pet, or prom feet in a celestial axe, but for lower level players its so much easier to make crit work than CD, which for gilga atm is the main way to get good dmg as a low AL player, for high AL, gear matters less and less and u can still output great dmg, but in terms of accessibility for people with less gear, its another place where CD falls short compared to crit imo.

I will say i love CD and the whole idea of it as a substitute for crit for gilga classes, and in terms of dmg output once setup its definitely worth using if you take away the drawbacks, which do subside after getting all the necessary gear, and i understand that as the “tank class” gilga isnt expected to do as much dmg as the likes of the other classes and i dont want it to, but i feel like a way the devs could make CD much more viable is through ever so slightly lowering the ward cost from 20% to say 15 or 10 or even like they did with frenzy, 8% ward and 8% hp but also adding some more gear for the builds which i do see them doing over time

[sterile monolith]

FWIW the CD boosters no longer burn ward and Frenzy burns way less ward, as does SS

[fallen ginkgo]

For the record i am speaking completely from a lower level and slightly lacking game knowledge pov, i dont wanna spark any debates or annoy anyone, thats just my opinion on the matter and whether my ideas are viable to the game or not is completely up to the devs 😅🤣

[fallen ginkgo]

Yeah i did see that and am massively looking forward to when the patch goes live for gilgas, its definitely a step in the right direction as far as im concerned, would be nice for it to be slightly more viable in horde content but from what ive heard with the ursa changes it seems they are working towards that as well, honestly i think the devs are taking the majority of the gilga communities ideas onboard, i do see some bits lacking but i understand they are trying to please everyone and make sure the classes still stay balanced, my opinions are purely based from a current live gilga pov as i dont have access to the beta, i will say the idea you had a few days ago where frenzy worked like a meter that filled up was great, personally i love that idea, and would love to see what that would look like in game but for now im just happy with what we are for sure getting 🫶

[blazing tendon]

I will chime in here with my opinion:

This simply comes down to availability. Crit has been around for a long time, starts with higher damage, easier access to crit% and crit damage, and the BIGGGEST one:

• Crit damage MULTPLIES

[sterile monolith]

Not trying to be argumentative, just trying to understand. But doesn't CD damage multiply?

[blazing tendon]

Whoopsies, hit enter not shift enter, sorry for double message.

So while yes, we can get above 100%, that now matches BASE crit. But build all out for crit? Got 2.0 naturallyt then 1.4 amity. usually a 1.1 somewhere on gear, then whatever class bonuses on top of that.

So now CD is boosted going all out with gear and amity to lets say 2.5. which is a respectiable build.

Crit will be 2.0 x 1.4 x 1.1 = 3.08

[fallen ginkgo]

Yeah for sure, like i said, i do see them trying to add more CD stuff like with the changes to some augments and gear, but it’s still a way from catching up to the amount of crit equipment

[blazing tendon]

As I understand, CD is additive.

just look at when you load up your sand mortars. you get your 5% 10 times or 12 times, that 60% and 40% gives you a 1:1 base damage and CD. if it muplied it would be 1.4 * (1.05^12) = 2.5

[sterile monolith]

Ahh I see what I think you mean, you mean a crit damage multiplier being multiplicative? I thought they changed that in the last beta cycle but maybe they didn't cause of the uproar.

[fallen ginkgo]

Sorry to chime in but thats something that kinda upsets me, i dont mean to light any fires but (if im correct in what happened) its unfortunate that just because of some people getting angry about there class not getting more buffs it means other classes communities get pushed back more 😅 i understand tryna keep everyone happy but sometimes u gotta do what u gotta do no? 😂

[sterile monolith]

Well the elemental boosts were taking a hit at the same time. I can see why people thought it was too much

[neon bramble]

CD dmg is base of the initial hit, which at this moment needs to crit to do proper amount of dmg.

So I think CD will never deal as much dmg as crit, unless things change ofcourse.

[blazing tendon]

That is what I had originally thought but it was reverted.

But even looking at the adorns. Prometheus hands gives you 8% chance, and 10% damage full on celestial 5 slot is now 40% chance and 5 x (1.1^5) = 1.61 (multiplied then by other bonuses)
Themis hands is 5/15 so the total is 25% chance, with 75% increased damage (additive).

So lets assume each person has their respective amities (12/17 CD, 40 Crit damage) and we take a basic class (so no class bonuses to crit) we end up with

Crit - (40% + 5% base) 45% before gear adorns, and 4.508 damage multiplier
CD - (15% base + 25% + 12%) 52% chance before gear adorns and 2.22 damage multiplier

So in this case CD has a 7% increase chance to proc, but for less than half the damage.

So that is me just presenting numbers. Please note I am not saying CD should do as much damage as crit. Do I think the access and what we have is a bit lower and weaker? Yes. but to me the very maximum should be 75% of crit power. But reality is due to the multiplier, when you go further beyond that basic set up I have there, you will lose out more and more (oracle set up, damage on gear/anguish, etc) However to me that is a tiny adjustment over time type of thing.

Or alternatively if Gilga had something unique it had access to that interacted with it, then all a sudden those numbers are perfrectly fair ||This is a reference to potential Frenzy variants. Because the frenzy combo + CD then becomes more damage and power|| Also why I am not saying we need to buff CD any, because if we go the direction most gilga's are wanting, then it would become moot

[spark sandal]

CD can do things that normal crit builds from other classes simply can’t. It hits multiple targets, finishes second chances in the same turn, and deals 100% damage on turn 2 in the BoF guild even though the rules cap it at 50%. Overall, CD is in an okay place—very strong for PvP, in my opinion. So no need to make it stronger.

[fallen ginkgo]

I agree with pvp its fine, and to be completely honest even if the dmg were to get a buff in pve content it wouldnt need a big one, i personally just think we need some more adorns and gear that can boost it a bit, for example sand mortars give +5% CD, and tree nut gives 3% chance, itd be nice to have some adorns that are maybe slightly stronger, or an adorn that gives both chance and damage, things that will just give builds mor variety, for example making a new t10 CD adorn that gives 7-10% and chance adorn that gives 5% and maybe one that gives 3% chance and 5% dmg, so u could have more variety

[stoic yacht]

We need more gear/adorn options that interact with CD for more variety of options. The themis CD change is great, my axe is full of them. The only issue I have is Frenzy causing 100% CD chance which negates the need to use most of the CD adorns and some gear which only gives CD chance.

[empty meteor]

the intent of putting 100% CD chance on Frenzy is to allow you to open your build up and not need as many adorns

[sterile monolith]

This is not a game problem but a me problem. Personally because I am so 'strongly incentivized' to go BoF, I have to put CD in my gear anyway for allt he content where Frenzy is not feasible

[stoic yacht]

I'd rather Frenzy give a small CD chance and a large CD damage boost, it'd allow us to plan out how much CD we want to actually have since all 3 gilgas have different CD lvls. But that's me personally.

[sterile monolith]

Maybe that could be a Gilga Ursa variant idea if that route is taken

[sterile monolith]

I would like to point out, this is an extremely friendly new t-10 feature for Gilgamesh raiding. We (or at least I) have always complained how unfriendly Gilgamesh is to new T10's given it's heavy gear dependence. This new patch as is significantly raises the floor for beginner friendly Gilga raiding, which ideally means a lot of new players picking the class up and sticking around with it.

[rare oar]

I really like the proposal of having Ursa’s frenzy not fade as long as it keeps attacking. Doesn’t impact PvP, but gives Ursa an avenue to be competent in endless, something gilga desperately needs

[sterile monolith]

Give that variant Frenzy is pretty solidly in the lead and Frenzy increases SS damage by 1.6x, I was thinking maybe that would be a good line item to replace since Ursa is losing Ward Power and the studio is aiming to de-demphasize ward skill play on Ursa

[quaint mural]

did you say endless frenzy

[round yew]

That would make Ursa the go to for everything right? In what scenarios would you use each class if that were the case

[crimson bay]

Hey everyone I didn't mean to turn this convo into a crit vs CD thing. That wasn't my intent, just when you're giving up all the ward for more power crit just made the most sense on gursa.

Also part of the reason is crit is so available compared to how CD was. I dont think CD will ever be as powerful as crit is nor as it should be because it can do something crit can't, hit another target.

The new frenzy and CD changes in beta are great, I do want to say that

[rare oar]

Herc or base for PvP, raids, towers, and any other content where frenzy isn’t relevant

[quaint mural]

sounds like I can use all classes in all content

[rare oar]

Realistically, you’d only be using ursa in dungeons. And even then probably not in high melancholy

[round yew]

You must be referencing high anguish - I find Gursa very effective everywhere otherwise. Slice builds in towers / ultimastrikes quick CD raiding / swansong dungeons / and obvious PVP builds

Was just wondering mostly not here to derail anything! Trying to read along and understand.

[rare oar]

Swansong dungeons? At 20+ melancholy? When base exists with CS?
And how would this frenzy change towers? You’re not using frenzy there. Nor are you using it in PvP

[round yew]

Right - so high anguish is specifically what you're referring to that was my clarifying question. Again just trying to understand the full reasoning

[gaunt nova]

A change like this would mostly extend to endless for me. I only use Swansong ursa for low-melancholy and in those situations I won't need to buff.

In any event anguish or not I don't think you'd be using frenzy in towers.

[round yew]

My point really is - where else does Gursa struggle?

[rare oar]

Every high anguish content

[round yew]

Isnt that content supposed to be challenging. I guess im confused

[rare oar]

What other class is absolutely incompetent at every single facet of high anguish?

Every class can clear low anguish content, so saying “ursa is good at most low anguish content” isn’t really a great balance point to aim for (especially when base and herc outdo it there as well)

[sterile monolith]

Ursa the go to for everything? I am not seeing that.

[round yew]

I defer to NF to determine what a good place to aim for is in terms of ability clear difficult content in addition to the obvious strengths gursa already has. I dont have enough experience with high anguish across all classes to say where the weaknesses are either, because its like extreme late game problem solving content (at least thats how I see it). Mostly just trying to understand the problems and perspective, not really arguing either way.

[round yew]

I don't play gilga at high anguish, but when I do I find Gursa pretty effectively at everything. Ill say it again im just trying to understand 😂 not here to derail.

Wondering what NFs data is on the matter

[quaint mural]

frankly just sounds like you are trying to diffuse the idea on your own merits rather than NFs

[round yew]

Oh absolutely not. If anything im referencing using Gursa over other classes, and could just be a playstyle preference.

[gaunt nova]

I basically use ursa for nothing besides pvp defense and will probably move to herc for pvp defense on beta. I think other gilga subclasses outperform it elsewhere, it just feels pretty lukewarm. Maybe lower AL or anguish gilga have a different opinion.

[rare oar]

Here’s the perspective of someone who is on Ursa 90% of the time because of war defenses:

• at melancholy 24, I’m never touching dungeons on GUrsa
• the only content I’m still using it on is towers, and that’s because I’m only torment 14
• I’ll actively delay raiding and dungeoning when I’m not able to swap to base

[sterile monolith]

Let's say for one second, that Frenzy for Ursa was made 'endless'. What would it change?

It's already probably the best Gilga variant for Orn endless and it would be a significant bump for Endless but in the end Ursa is still going to be subpar to other choices due to no significant stat scaling and the hard pen wall.

Very long Raiding scenarios would likely see Ursa gain an edge, so it might pull ahead in Arisen Waygates.

Unanguished Horde and Hard Boss it's already superior to base so it would just make it a bit better at that.

[rare oar]

Ursa gets a ton of (deserved) flak because of how annoying it is in PvP with auto-CA. Other than that, it’s pretty much worse than the other Gilgas at everything. We tolerate it in PvE because we need it in PvP, no one intentionally uses ursa for anything PvE related

[sterile monolith]

Honestly, I'll probably start raiding with it once the beta patch goes live. It's just so lazy and easy

[fallen ginkgo]

Ykw forget it, give ursa recharge passive that also recharges ward but instead of on crit its on CD, steadfast 3, endless frenzy, and take away the 200k ward dmg cap for all gilga classes

✨balancing✨

[sterile monolith]

I'll likely stop using it in pvp situations outside a few fringe offensive needs

[rare oar]

What agony are you running?

[fallen ginkgo]

Im looking forward to trying out ursa once i get it, im only going to get it after the patch comes out tho 😂

[round yew]

Cool thanks guys for the background on that. 👍 Mostly was just wondering. Im planning on doing some more testing with Ursa I just haven't found much time this week. Would you say the only weakness of gilga classline as a whole is endless?

[sterile monolith]

0 of course. I don't do Anguish 2.0. But do you think the proposal here would change Ursa's agony performance much?

[rare oar]

Might help it there, though I still don’t think it’d do enough damage to compete with the ward skill variants

[fallen ginkgo]

High AL? Yes, low AL? Probably, as a low AL i dont really struggle with much besides raiding speed and hordes, but i just switch to beoh with swan for horde and tower content 😂

[crimson bay]

Could you give ursa frenzy poise Ala crit poise? But have It work off CD?

[sterile monolith]

Yeah me either

[rare oar]

Really don’t see myself touching ursa if this is the version that goes live, besides some weird PvP matchups

[rare oar]

That’s pretty much the suggestion, just didn’t call it poise 😅

[fallen ginkgo]

Anyone have any clue when the actual gilga change might come out? Like towards the end of december for the new year orrrr? 🤷‍♂️

[sterile monolith]

The Gilga changes will be out when the studio has a proposal we can reach a consensus on or they get tired of our crap and launch with what they have. Whichever comes first

[crimson bay]

Ooh my fault. I'm at work and trying to stay caught up but it's moving quick

Ursa doesn't have to be "better" I see it as just different way to play gilg. Going back to the warrior archetype in games. You're either the big tank like we have with herc or the big 2h wep thats more bout damage then defense.

If we go live with how ursa is now it's definitely in a better spot.

[quaint mural]

Odie says you have to finish balancing first so we are waiting on your changes to hit prod

[fallen ginkgo]

Oh ok… we’re never getting an update 😭🤣

[rare oar]

How so? What makes you think Ursa is stronger now? Because, from my perspective, Ursa is disappearing after this patch

You’re losing access to ward based skills, you’re losing the strongest defensive tool in PvP. Which buff do you think makes up for that?

[crimson bay]

We've lost CA, and that's a huge hit. I'll give you that. But the frenzy the CD passive and the CD buff changes ARE pretty substantial

[empty meteor]

CD5 is a massive lift in horde dungeons / towers performance

[rare oar]

Frenzy right now is a raid exclusive skill. Base gilga and herc raid much better than ursa, so it doesn’t really impact ursa.

CD5’s performance in towers gets lost when you realize you’re unable to use CS now.

Again, I’m sure it’s fine for Anguish level 0 and similar, but as soon as anguish starts ramping up, ursa becomes irrelevant.
Even at low anguish, its only advantage is being able to better use swansong for full AoE instead of relying on CS

[crimson bay]

Let me ask you this. Does using CS make towering better because it can hit multiple targets? And then you stack CD on that and then that solves the issue of hordes?

[rare oar]

That’s pretty much how gilga currently clears hordes and towers, yea

[crimson bay]

Right. So could you solve that by giving ursa a good way to clear horde. You either need a find a way to keep frenzy going or give them a new skill that can target multiple.

Maybe you're doubling down on the whole multi target abilities between classes.

I think thats where we're at now.

Is the question out there is why should I play ursa with CD when I can just play herc with built in quasi CD, mainly CS with less steps

[rare oar]

Isn’t that what was being proposed though? Making frenzy continue endlessly while ursa attacks and making it stay active between dungeon floors?

That would give ursa an alternative to CS and simultaneously make it competent at endless

[crimson bay]

Right. I misspoke, when I said they didn't need to be better, it was more of a general statement not saying they're better right now

[fierce marsh]

Uhh not sure if this is the right place to ask, but does CD from aoe attacks (envy/dragon tail sweep) come from the total damage dealt in the turn(sum of the damage the mobs have taken) or just from the damage the last mob takes

[rare oar]

Only from one of the attacks (the one that procs CD)

[crimson bay]

My other thought was what if we could proc CD on every target, that could also be a solution

[fierce marsh]

Noted

[neon bramble]

How so?

I do like Ursa become the CD king, dont get me wrong.

[whole prism]

Higher chance to hit 3 enemies with slice without having to use as much adorns as before is what I'm guessing

[crimson bay]

I mean this is pretty huge start for CD

[sterile monolith]

And the changes to Pauldrons and Greaves is pretty big too

[neon bramble]

Yea well I've got this yelmogus blade 😬

[whole prism]

Pauldrons is huge.

Greaves is... Ehhh (atleast from what I tested)

[empty meteor]

what they said 🙂

[neon bramble]

Personally not worried about a few adornment slots.

[whole prism]

Oh I thought I was actually wrong and spouting nonsense like 99% of the time

[crimson bay]

We gotcha odie 😂. The more I think about it though, I'll probably still end up going crit. Stacking crit and 2h power is just so strong. Id end up just relying on the passive and the buffs for CD

[whole prism]

These "few adorn slots" could help alot in builds. We can actually build more into crit and save more slots that would've been used in CD chance or CDamage

[sterile monolith]

So, not that shooting for the moon isn't fun and all but I don't think we have nearly enough testing data from Beta to support some of these more advanced recommendations. But one thing I definitely think we can make a strong thematic argument for would be changing the 1.6 SS damage on Frenzy for Ursa to be a 1.6 Damage while using 2 handers, or maybe a CD damage bonus of an extra percentage. Something along those lines?

[whole prism]

To be honest anything that helps Ursa and doesn't make it broken I'm okay with.

Also I want to ask:

1. How many people would like to see a replacement for Crest of Lyonesse on GUrsa? (could be any new passive)

2. And how many people want to keep Crest of Lyonesse?

[rare oar]

But what’s the use case? In what way will ursa be better off vs live?

• raids: base and herc are still miles better
• dungeons: better at low melancholy, much worse at higher melancholy since it loses the ability to use CS effectively
• towers: same thing as dungeons
• PvP: loses auto-CA and the ability to use SS3 effectively, has to use lower ward builds that rely on bristles, thus lowering your attacking and forcing you to use the BoF spec.

Am I going crazy or is ursa just all around weaker after the patch?

[sterile monolith]

As long and hard as I've been pushing for a Crest replacement, I kind of feel we'd see this already if it was going to get off the ground.

[rare oar]

In what content am I choosing to use ursa over herc or base when this patch goes live? I can’t find a single use case. And I’m a 171AL gilga that tries to use Ursa as much as possible on live

[haughty crest]

174 AL and my only usecase post patch is looking like dungeons (mel 22, dragon tail sweep is still going strong)

[crimson bay]

Ty for that @rare oar you compiled it nicely which is leading into what my question is.

What does ursa need help with. Does it need horde? Damage? There's tons of great ideas out there but they're kinda all over the place

I wish I could do more beta testing but have no time lately working 12h days😕

[sterile monolith]

Have you done much Beta testing, cause I really don't find worse outside of the pvp defense s tier slot it used to have

[neon bramble]

Could you read this thread from the start lol😂

[crimson bay]

I have. We're no where closer to an answer though. Unless our plan is just to throw ideas out there and let odie and his devs ultimately decide.

[rare oar]

Isn’t that the biggest use case for Ursa though? If it loses its use in PvP, it either needs to gain a new one or at least be better than the other 2 celestials in PvP. I still agree that counter had to go, but I don’t see why Ursa shouldn’t be allowed to have some ward power.

If that’s not the way the studio wants to go, then making Ursa useful for hordes and endless would be a satisfactory alternative

[whole prism]

Odie has already mentioned that Ursa is supposed to be the CD class that strays off from ward🙂

[neon bramble]

To do what exactly?

[rare oar]

Which is why I offered an alternative solution. I’d still like to know what exactly is the use case for that vision, when base gilga and herc can complete all PvE content more effectively

[whole prism]

I don't know? We're still trying to find a solution. This beta will be long and there still has to be more testing so we can know what the class exactly needs

[sterile monolith]

Like I said before I don't do Anguish 2.0 and the only Anguish 1.0 I do is boss dungeons. But Gilga Ursa is far superior at normal horde and non anguish raiding it's going to be pretty great too. Super competitive end game stuff though? Yeah not sure that is going to become it's thing

[whole prism]

The remove of auto counter in PvP was mostly due to the backlash from other classes IIRC. And I would be mad too if I lose to a class becuase of a bad RNG roll

[fallen ginkgo]

While im here and devs are watching this chat, any thoughts to add a 2h shield at any point? 👀👀

[rare oar]

Don’t really see what that has to do with my point 😅 I’ve been one of the biggest advocates for the removal of auto-CA. I just never expected it to come with the removal of ward power as well.
Since they partially reversed the SS nerf to other classes, I think it’s fair to keep bringing the topic of ward power on Ursa up.
Again, I don’t see any piece of content where I’d rather go ursa over the other 2.

[crimson bay]

But given some more changes, you COULD.

Also @fallen ginkgo I know the idea has been brought up before. But thematically it just wouldn't work in the direction ursa is currently going.

I still would love the item in general at some point though in some fashion

[blazing tendon]

Low anguish with Dragon tail sweep on dungeons can work.

Similar to lower anguish towers. I think it'll be a decent "introductory" one for new Gilgas. However aside from that it rapidly swaps to the other two classes. Adding the proposed variant frenzy could potentially add a lot higher anguish capability for dungeons (doubt it will get dragon tail sweep to 40 thought) And endless. Some use cases for PvP offense.

Ursa still loses out in Towers, Raids, high anguish any content, and PvP defence.

Just how I see it, and that is with it including if the frenzy variant was implemented for Ursa. Otherwise they drop off rapidly on dungeons, and otherwise outclassed.

And that isn't fightin' words Bordo, just a "enh, I can see some stuff" but as mentioned earlier in the thread, if ANY class couldn't tackle low end anguish, then that in itself is a separate issue.

I know one of our kind guests pointed out they tried Gursa, but had to swap back cause the damage just wasn't there compared to Beo and Deity. Which uh... makes sense. Pretty well a known fact around here XD

[fallen ginkgo]

Oh yeah for sure i dont mean for ursa, i just mean in general 😂

[rare oar]

It works for low anguish dungeons, but what doesn’t? Even base RS, a terrible horde class, can easily clear them with things like swansong.

Base with CS would still be more consistent than dragon sweep. Point is, we currently tolerate doing PvE with ursa (even though it’s worse than with base/herc) because it has PvP advantages. When those disappear, what’s the point of giving ursa the time of day?

[blazing tendon]

Fair point. ||But my Yel Thinblade..... ||

[gaunt nova]

Yeah, I always have had a bit of an issue with Ursa being the 'early level' gilga class outside of PvP. For an early-mid t10, A) you'll have to unlock a celestial class, Diffucult enough for a base t10, but likely delaying your Herc and celestial weapon which are very important to get online. B) If you're running full AoE for dungeons, you can more easily get a more effective, build going on Deity for just 20m. If you're running partial AoE like slice, you might as well go CS.

I think most people who are maining Ursa are playing for flavor at this point, and thats fine, but would be nice to have areas it excelled at.

At this point I don't even use Ursa for endless, my preferred flavor has been the SS build where feasible. I'm perfectly happy to be able to sit on Herc for important wars/territory AND still be optimal at PvE, but sucks for the people who actually want to play Ursa.

[blazing tendon]

I like to pretend I'm a thief! Dons Non-existent Yel Cowl

[crimson bay]

Well said. You kinda complied everything I was thinking. @gaunt nova I play gursa for flavor alone. However they want to change the class I'm fine with as long as it's a viable option, and not like oh why are wasting your time on that class.

[stoic yacht]

What if GUrsa was given a multi-target/chain damage boost also?

[neon bramble]

You mean something like collateral damage? 🤔

[fierce marsh]

Two hand bonus similar to gherc passive would work a lot better

[quaint mural]

I know Odie said that Gursa will be the 'CD' class, I guess this falls flat because CD is a gilga identity passive across all 3 classes. Ursa just has the most total CD.
At best it makes it more "slot efficient" when it comes to adorning when compared to the other two.

Every other distinguishing point on Gursa is a passive mechanic.
Crest,
(in beta) PvE auto-counter,
HP boost,
Additive Two hand power.

I have said it before but I think the flavor or expectations around the fun part of the class distinction (two hand berserker RPG types?) is that there is some mechanical difference in Gursa that makes it unique compared to Base (more defensive oriented playstyle) and Herc (more offensive oriented playstyle)

Gursa could ship as is today and probably be okay. It lost ward power so you will need to build into CD/Crit; again this is fine but it doesn't address the player ask.

My impression from the thread with things like "endless frenzy" is that Gilgamesh players aren't looking for free power - which is where we start to see "downvotes" on the polls from other player classes - but for more mechanically distinct reason to play Gursa vs base and herc. Its not just "I want endless to be easier" but I'd like this content to be more fun through something that makes Gursa unique in its play style and what it offers in comparison; IMO Gursa has always been a powerful class but its also been an exceptionally boring one. Maybe it is out of scope for this beta but until Gursa has some draw that isn't just power and additive stats, and instead sees a mechanical difference that makes it fun to play we will continue spinning this wheel.

[spark sandal]

Wait you don't play 2.0. Thats interesting. We need to get everyone switched to 2.0 so we are all playing the same game.

[sterile monolith]

https://tenor.com/view/the-goon-letterkenny-hard-no-no-wayne-gif-12491966

The day I adopt Anguish 2.0 is the same day I use a HoC, which is never. I'll retire and play T7 till Orna Classic launches before that ever happens.

Keep in mind, I am not in here asking for features to be balanced around Anguish 1.0. I'll adjust my play as necessary. And if the Devs decide to end Anguish 1.0, well that's fine too. I'm not going to throw a fit about it.

[pine mirage]

Retire? Why lol

[sterile monolith]

Cause I'm old and deserve to sit in my rocker on my porch and yell get off my lawn?

Anyway, resume thy lobbying. I am travelling tomorrow and out of town till Sunday, so godspeed fellow travelers.

[whole prism]

Now time to think of variants that keep gilgas and the other classes happy

[round yew]

CD is the classline passive. Gursa leans more into it while not having to be tied to SS3 basically, and can wear thief gear, and has a unique hp / ward distribution. Also has a 2h bonus that helps with some of the builds Thats unique compared to base gilga fwiw. I understand the sentiment completely that youre looking for something more fun to play. Thats why I don't play Gilga! Every time I HoC over, its not for me for that exact reason. Gursa actually is the most diverse of the three gilgas ironically. But I absolutely dont blame you for feeling that way and completely agree with your assessment of power there based on testing and recent stints as gursa.

Also CD is very very strong. I cannot stress that enough.

[fallen ginkgo]

I think everyones in agreement that CD is strong, as much as id love for even slightly more dmg on gilga thats just my biased opinion on wanting gilga to have more dmg, in reality it doesnt need more dmg per-say, it just needs some more things that give it identity, and frenzy and CD do that great, just gotta balance the class again from that update that added frenzy and itll be good imo 🤷‍♂️ and ofc change ursa like they are doing 🤣

[quaint mural]

I think you reveal your opinion in the first sentence. It is being seen as a boon that gursa has had the removal of ward power as it is not "tied" to spike shield anymore.
My own perception of your stance is that SS as a skill really shouldn't exist at all but here we are with tweaks, I think that should be sufficient for now.

Base(d) and Herc already have had an established (and perhaps you find it boring but its simple) gameplay of being about ward management and using spiked shield.
There is some small diversity in other builds but this is where they perform the best. You either enjoy variety around this or you don't. The beauty of orna is being able to swap around freely to other classes you find more enjoyable.

It is a fact that Gursa has reduced diversity in beta with removal of ward power. Now you play a mix of crit/cd, which was status quo option, it only sees a flat increase to CD damage, and an additional flat increase if you run two hand. This is fine but it is less "diverse" in comparison.

Thief gear is great but its strictly an enabler for the same now reduced subset of builds. Flat and additive bonuses with no interaction. The distribution is different but
the fundamentals for this class are the same.

I have avoided outside class comparisons when commenting in this thread as it is almost always never a productive conversation. At least in this instance, I will
rely on your experiences to do your own comparisons and understand that other classes already have a diverse trio, or are in progress of working towards this, or are currently asking for it. I am doing the same here. Its not just about diversity in numerical difference, I am explicitly asking for something mechanically different. Gursa does not provide this. ( I am ignoring CA as it was nerfed and you have no control over its behavior)

[round yew]

Are you saying flat out that CD isnt a fun passive? Im trying to parse through the perceptions of me in here. What is it about Gursa that isnt diverse or fun ? Just the removal of ward power?

[rare oar]

CD isn’t GUrsa exclusive, hence it’s not something that makes GUrsa fun

[round yew]

That makes sense. The only thing that is gursa exclusive is 2h power and unique stats really, and thief gear. I can see how thats not enough fun and difference factor to some for sure

[quaint mural]

CD is fun. Making cd “more” on Gursa doesn’t make a difference from the other two classes to make it its whole own class. Slap on a sword and it’s more stats. More stats all on its own is not more fun. It’s why some people want a crest rework because it’s static and always present. It may as well just be baked into gursa base stats rather than advertised as a unique passive

[round yew]

Yeah got that. So message to the studio isnt make gursa stronger, its give it something to make it more diverse. Just one thing would suffice?

[quaint mural]

I’ve already given my thoughts to both Gilga ORN reps.

[solid nest]

Yea ursa is the one that is fine. It is the others that get nuked and that is only since the fmc stuff as ss build gilgs arent very good with dex. Gursa has a lot better base dex too

[round yew]

Maybe someone else who understands the issue (and doesnt get any reward for helping) could help push the issue and get a solution. Thats why im trying to understand. Sorry for getting involved. Good luck!

[solid nest]

Yea cd is really op in pvp mainly. It is the thing that makes gilgy strong more than anything. M1 and survivability is lower vs deity and beo... but collateral counters the best life saving passive.

[solid nest]

Heretic and deity still win at endless even if that becomes a thing. Rs corvus too
Or did you mean of the gilgy classes?

[solid nest]

Anything gursa does in pve there are better options with other classes. Deity, heretic, rs all make towers and anguish a joke. Same with raids. Raids gilgy is doing good with as being slower but having high survivability though.

[shell shore]

☝️Bros clearly never played a round of BoF before

[pine mirage]

RS and heretic make anguish a joke? 😂

[fallen ginkgo]

I agree with this, itd be nice if the gilga had something different like the heretic classes, base here has recharge, heretic corvus has crit poise and now mana feather? I think its called? And heretic ara has sigil raiding, thats another reason why i think frenzy being a passive with a meter or something would be cool, u could have the likes of herc that could use a skill at full meter that added more ward power or something, and ursa could have one that adds CD and chance, and obviously a few other things just to fill it out a bit, obviously if CD was still a thing with the other classes itd need a bit more to make them diverse, just an idea tho, credit for that idea goes to strahd 🫶😂

This could also be further worked upon through the gear with frenzy % buffs, could act as a boost to damaging skills used at full meter that maybe do one attack with 200% CD or something 🤷‍♂️

I think itd be cool but also understand that wouldnt exactly be a new fun thing in the grand scheme as it basically just copies deity and heretic 🤣

[pine mirage]

Gilga's gonna need more hands to hold an axe, a shield, and all these identities...

[fallen ginkgo]

Yes just make gilga the warrior goddess durga

-# for reference she is a hindu goddess with up to 18 arms

[blazing tendon]

Now, given that you said this it sparks an idea on mind...

Cause deity and heretic does work slightly differently. So why have a meter fill up, when you can have a meter DECREASE

Granted this is slightly inspired by games like WoW or similar ones that rather than having mana that you use up, you have a "Rage meter" using frenzy activates full range and it decreases as turns pass. Each class can have something unique. Herc gains via being hit, or can activate it when hit, Ursa can extend it via CD, and base could... ||ACTIVATE FOR FREE! I AM STILL GOING OB ABOUT THIS APPARENTLY ||

Either way, there are ways to make a meter thing unique and "ours"

[fallen ginkgo]

That would be amazing… like a berserker style for ursa would go hard, the lower hp or ward u have the more dmg you… REDLINE GAWD DAMNIT im too used to gilga, i forgot redline exists 😭

Btw whats all this chat about base gilga? Are you a base gilga enjoyer? And why… are u just… based? @blazing tendon

[blazing tendon]

Oh, I have just been going on throughout this entire thread that I want base gilga to have a free turn activation of Frenzy.

Would almost have a shift of towers/raids herc, dungeons base, endless and potentially other dungeons etc. but that all depends on the frenzy variants. Or gear that lets us activate frenzy t1.

[fallen ginkgo]

Oooooo, it would be cool to make all the classes good at there own thing, i doubt that’ll happen tho, especially frenzy variants, it’d be very cool but idek how theyd implement it or what you 100% mean by variants, u mean like how heretic has the different flasks and different flask abilities based on class? A similar thing for gilga? Minus the flask obviously 😂

Altho a mage based gilg would be interesting 👀😂 a heretic with 500k ward, collateral dmg and crit? Thats so balanced we need that

[solid nest]

Meant pve

[solid nest]

Yup. Beat gilgy at half the AL and go faster 👌
Use them a lot for it instead of doin gilgy there. Nothing wrong with other classes having strong suits

[neon bramble]

Ursa is fine with what? Can you tell me?

And yet another round full of shit going at others. And team alpine trying to talk gilga down because of BoF... gj guys really helping out...

[slow dome]

Let's calm it down please folks

[slow dome]

Hey all,
I've got a few messages about this thread throughout its runtime, and a few more from yesterday.
I'm going to ask for now that the folks who don't play Gilgamesh maybe take a bit of a breather from the thread, as the issues that impact other classes are already known and being addressed.

Let's let the Gilga playing folks talk amongst themselves without derailment on some of their ideas.

Another note - and I really hate the frequency I have to say this during betas/discussion threads: let's completely cut out the weird aggression toward each other. Not only is it not what we condone or aim for here in this community, it's actively really disruptive.
If you don't agree with someone, just disagree and move on.

If we continue to have this weird attitude toward each other when trying to test it with the group, then we'll just lock the threads and work it out another way

[fallen ginkgo]

Well now we got some awkward silence to fill…

[neon bramble]

Nothing wrong with silence, let's us think things through.
Lot has been said. Are there any specific things left open or need attention?

[crimson bay]

Ive caught up on everything, I would say the main issue is what the identity of ursa will become, with the removal of CA.

I know odie has said ursa will be the main CD class now but what does it do with CD that the other sub classes can't. It can't be just an extra passive.

I always looked at ursa being the 2h brute force class, maybe we need to direct stuff into that and not overall gilg abilities

[whole prism]

A new passive for GUrsa that works off collateral would be a nice idea. There's suggestions like that made above already (like Geppus idea that's similair to DAra apex line and CALAMITY from Dracolich)

[wide flax]

That suggestion already came up when frenzy was added and it’s still the best idea for ursa imo. With the SS changes to Ursa, the class shouldn’t be able to use these skills anymore. Since 2h is pretty good for some horde content but lacking everywhere else, a scaling stat passive would make up the difference. Then adding the proposed changes to herc making that class the ward specialist, we have a nice and firm distinction between the two variants.

[analog violet]

Could be a minor boost in damage if hitting for collat damage? Nothing major concidering what its got already like 5% stacks a few times? Could even be a boost in collat damage while hitting a collat hit

[crimson bay]

This might be an imo thing but solving the identity of ursa can't just be well it does more damage from a base standpoint.

Now if it was something like say ursa has a chance to proc berserk while using 2h weps, while it's a damage increase it's done In a different way.

[analog violet]

I mean im fine with this too, just want smth to do with collat or 2H

[whole prism]

How does everyone feel about GHerc and base currently?

[wide flax]

Sadly I couldn’t test anything myself yet but from patch notes and testing from this thread herc seems to be a straight up upgrade. Only case of superiority of base gilga I can think of is high anguish CS dungeons for the mana recovery. A small difference on frenzy cast like status cleanse would make me considerate base for some raids.

[analog violet]

Ok just found this suggestion and imo this is easily the best my suggestions are awful compared to this masterpiece lowk

[blazing tendon]

Although to clarify I was excited to introduce the name. I didn't mean for it to be all caps.

So the name should read just plain ol': Calamity

[analog violet]

Oh Ik but it's fire and I like the concept, I was suggesting like a collat chain type of thing and this is exactly what I like

[whole prism]

That ain't stopping me from saying CALAMITY

Sounds more menacing and puts more fear into the AI of mobs

[solid nest]

I mean there is little that has changed for ursa minus that portions that have been over powered in live are being nerfed. Other than that, there are buffs for collateral and 2h power in beta. So yes, the beta ursa is fine. Any extra changes are suggestions not really too relevant to THIS patch. There is a suggestions channel.

I play gilg so 🤷 auto-counter in pvp had to go. Base hp on gursa means it is still crazy tanky. Other gilgs have much bigger problems to talk about than gursa. Gursa has the dex, actually great base dex and gear options, and with the changes leaning away from ward skills already, it really isnt effected by the fmc. Gursa being able to effectively use ss3 really well with the collateral is... not really balanced either. So removal of ward boost on there is fair.

Gursa having 2 unavoidable life saving passives and having the highest hp in live for pvp... is quite frankly insane. Especially when 1 also let's you kill the enemy with their own hit as well.

In raids that extra 20% collateral damage is a huge boon along with 5% 2h power.

Let's also not forget 10% ward regen... is really nice. Free frenzy anyone? Pair that with the frenzy buffs. 👌👌

In all other pve content you get 5% more 2h power still, 10% regen, 20% collateral damage, 5% chance boost and still have the auto counter defensive feature.

So what is the issue with the ursa changes specifically in THIS PATCH?

[neon bramble]

To be clear, the second part wasn't directed at you, just the part with questions.
Auto CA gone is done and accepted by everyone.
Despite all those nonscaling small buffs it doesnt help at any content.
Ursa beta:

• raids: base and herc are still miles better
• dungeons: better at low melancholy, much worse at higher melancholy since it loses the ability to use CS effectively
• towers: same thing as dungeons
• PvP: loses auto-CA and the ability to use SS3 effectively, has to use lower ward builds that rely on bristles, thus lowering your attacking and forcing you to use the BoF spec.
• CD is higher than base and herc, NOT ursa exclusive.

[rare oar]

What content exactly do you plan on using this beta Ursa? I don’t see how you can call it fine when it’s worse than the other 2 gilgas at every piece of content.
I don’t mean to be offensive but have you even played the beta, or is this all “I think this is fine” logic?

Ward regen and the extra collat are useless in raids when herc and base can just SS them down effectively, in a faster and safer fashion. Same thing applies to the remaining PvE content. Why should people play ursa for a slightly stronger CD, meaning they’ll be hitting 2 monsters at most at once, when you can use base or herc, run CS, and get 3 hits while being safer?

The numbers look pretty in text form but they have no practical application. Ursa is dead on the water in this beta

Edit: did the thread really need to go back to 10min cooldown? It’s so frustrating trying to discuss things like this

[fallen ginkgo]

Some Small questions as a pretty un-educated gilga herc main (i dont even own ursa), what does ursa raiding even look like? Why do i see high AL players on lb using it? Is it just pvp? And what does ursa raiding look like on beta, Is it viable at all or just worse than herc or base?

[rare oar]

It’s ultimastrikes. Works well for non anguish raiding (like waygate), but falls off a cliff as soon as you increase your agony level.
On beta it’s the same, since it’s not really affected by the changes. It’s slower and less safe than raiding with base and herc, and still unusable as soon as you start climbing agony

[fallen ginkgo]

Wow that sounds so fun i cant wait to spend ages grinding towers just so i can never touch a class! 😎 so does that mean the high AL peeps who use it its just for the love of the game? 😂

[rare oar]

This is all about the beta version of the class. In live it’s the best option gilga has for PvP defense, which is why people run it despite it being subpar in PvE

[fallen ginkgo]

Ah ok that makes sense, ig when u get to AL 100+ it kinda becomes worth it to focus on the pvp defence for a small hit in pve ability, probably still deall 10x my dmg 🤣 also on a side-note waiting 10 mins between messages is longgggg

[pine mirage]

Adding a 10min cooldown to a thread instead of asking specific people to step away is not good for discussion. I hope you gilgas figure it out

[slow dome]

They are different things Phil

Cooldowns are very good for keeping commentary digestible, able to be read by the studio. Keeps people on task too

The disagreements have been a collective effort, not individual. Not about to just kick people out of conversations, we all have a right to express ourselves, just need to be more adult about it.

[sharp karma]

That makes two Ursa classes dead during beta.

[solid nest]

@neon bramble I use it for raids and prefer it in dungeons over base or herc. Herc is safer for raids but gursa can hit well. What I am saying is nothing to do with this update has not really made gursa worse in anything but pvp. Use a 2h and your attack is higher (not by much but still) vs live. 5% more chance for collateral is still an effective damage boost too since... less tree nuts/bristles for the chance. Unless ya need more for crit then it doesnt matter.

20% more collateral damage brings it up significantly in being able to kill anything that dodges your attack or if you dont use full aoe, kill something from full. Second chance dies either way.

Non-scalable? I mean... 2h power is multiplicative of AL boost of total damage stat and 20% collateral damage... is just a flat buff that gets stronger with you. It is really nice. CD doesnt need to be exclusive to make it good and better. And forcing into BoF? Eh maybe if fighting people using defense... but I hit hard as oracle, zwei, cata, and raider too in pvp. Ward issues hurt though if using aaru headwrap... but still VERY tanky.

Gursa is still the tank class that can also dish out high damage. Also... with a 2h your attack stat is way higher. So even without BoF... the bristles arent ruining you. Also do not need many for your crit. 5% collateral is a nice boon too. 2 less adorns right there. Extra 20% damage in pvp also means... easier to get to the damage needed to counter parapet too.

But back to bordoadas comment, gursa in pve can hit more than 2 enemies on attacks that dont drain extra ward and can crit.

These changes just make gursa, more gursa and less base gilgy. Asking for more changes is a suggestions thing, not a feedback on this change thing imo. These changes are good. Balances in pvp more and it wasnt meant to be a strong ward version anyways.

And ah thornius I misunderstood. Thought ya were talking to me with the second part too.

[crimson bay]

If i may, I do believe everything you said is spot on, but you and Bordo are making 2 different points. No one is saying that GUrsa in severely underpowered or unplayable, the class if it shipped out now would be fine. I dont want to speak for him, but i believe he is saying what is the point of playing ursa if the other classes can do everything that ursa can do, but better. Unless ursa is just there for flavor of i dont want to play around ward, i just want my big 2h weapon

[fierce marsh]

Is it wrong to want more HP for gursa? After playing gursa for a few months without ward. It was quite fun for low agony raids and towers, not sure if it's only me but I don't just use ward on the class

[rare oar]

What level of agony and melancholy are you using it in? The point remains the same, you can use it comfortably for raids and dungeons if you’re running low anguish, but its damage and survivability falls of a cliff once you start cranking those up. It just doesn’t match up to base/herc.

20% more collateral damage is cancelled out by losing access to spiked shield/CS.

Having to rely on 2h weapons once again means less survivability (even lower ward vs using a shield).

What skills are you using in beta that can still dish out comparable damage without needing BoF?

[lethal summit]

I'm all for it. If ward power is taken away then make it an HP centric class and actually create a different playstyle than one that still relies on ward while having less access

[crimson bay]

That's actually a really interesting take.

To add onto the hp idea. Now my idea might be dumb and it wouldn't work. But we're just all brainstorming here.
.
What if we can't use ward gained more hp or some kind of hp modifier and also have the ability to redline but redlining gives us damage reduction.

It would also solve the issue that I'm seeing here of well herc or base can do what ursa does but better. It would give ursa a different way to play gilg.

[fallen ginkgo]

Damage reduction or defence and res boost would be cool, but i feel like itd take some effort to find the right balance between “completely unnoticeable” and “im on 1hp and nothing can kill me” 😂

[solid nest]

Well no, they are complaining because I said it is fine for now and we can ask for more balances in later patches. The other 2 gilgs are the ones that are thrown off a lot more. They are complaining that their 2h class is going to need to use a 2h like it was meant to.

@rare oar how is 5% chance and 20% damage canceled out? It isnt. You can use slice still and dragon tail sweep. BoF is kinda needed for higher anguish raids ik, but that is the same issue rs faces too. Also you can anguish your gear, even if it doesnt give as much as it looks like. Point of anguish is to be harder. And also... most things I have seen on "issues" is related to over 25 anguish, which Odie said is the equivalent to anguish 1.0 anguish 50.

I dont farm the game to an extreme extent so im at an average level and running shackles. I havent been having issues even if i am running rs2 for my damage. Frenzy buff works amazing for raids. Still not as strong at aoe fights as rs and heretic, but higher survivability. Would like it to be a bit stronger for those... but that is same in live.

The changes in this patch move gursa to be more balanced in pvp and push identity further back to what it was meant to be originally. Numbers higher for everything for 2h use. Would be nice if frenzy was feasible in horde dungeons though, would do a lot for feasibility of gilgy. Have seen people use plenty of dragon tail sweep though at higher anguish. Dont think it is as good as rs or heretic, but meh.

Would like it to be better for that pve, even if not as good as the glass cannon rs and heretic ones, but there is a lot going on in this patch and I think a bit more focus on it can be done later. Especially since a lot of the ideas thrown around here (a lot being pretty cool) are not particularly relevant to this patch. There is another channel for suggestions.

I dont agree with a lot of the people I am currently agreeing with on this, but I have to accept when something is correct.

[rare oar]

You are still not answering what I asked. Either you’re running low anguish and are just refusing to see how these changes impact higher levels of anguish, or you’re doing something no other gilga is seeing. Slice and dragon tail sweep are not good alternatives at high anguish, even less so when compared to CS. It doesn’t matter if it’s meant to be harder, because the other 2 gilga classes can clear much higher levels across all content. There’s literally no content where current beta ursa excels over the 2, so there’s no point in using it.

And this is coming from someone who loves playing Ursa. I sadly don’t see myself using it post patch because it just has no practical applications right now

[crimson bay]

I think it's safe to say that you guys won't ever agree and that's fine. But talking in circles isn't going to help push this In a direction we can all be happy with.

@rare oar Can I ask you this. What's your thoughts on the idea of turning ursa into a hp stacker with some ideas that I brought up. Now sure herc might end up being better but ursa can still be played but in a different theme

[rare oar]

It’s not even about agreeing, I’m just trying to understand where his viewpoint comes from. If he’s running low anguish that’s okay, but that means he’s missing a piece of the picture that’s important to a lot of gilga players.

The HP stacking idea would have some practical applications for PvP at the very least, so it’s something I’d be willing to explore

[solid nest]

Slice hits just fine when compares to CS. Compare gursa live to gursa beta. And I did answer lol. You just didnt like the answer. Other people ik who run high anguish dont have an issue with dragon tail sweep and Slice at decently high anguish. Can get that crit multi too.

[rare oar]

What’s your definition of high anguish? There’s a reason why I asked what level you were running on, just saying “high anguish” is meaningless when that could be 10, 15, 20 etc for you. I’m trying to get an objective assessment of what you’re saying but I can’t compare my experience to yours if you don’t mention numbers

[slow dome]

For the sake of testing parity - I believe the ask here is specific numbers.

I.e. Anguish branch, and level when tested.
Scenarios for comparison are quite helpful

[neon bramble]

Do you have a name or could you @ that person? I'd love to view their build and how they handle it.

[solid nest]

High anguish would be 15-25. Above 25 is excessive and is a diff conversation. Would be more on anguish scaling. I run a lot of 8 on horde dungeons and have seen people run 21 just fine using those attacks.

Gursa 2h bonus makes a huge difference on the m1. I get people dont like the stat passive boost which is fair since it is a lower %, but that wasnt one of the things changed.

From what I see, slice and cs have the same m1. 2h power and lots of slots for crit adorns in a 2h means few bristles needed. Tree nuts for collateral chance, need 2 less as well from beta buff. Extra 20% collateral damage without investment is huge too for getting enough damage to kill the enemy with collateral hit. Crit is double damage and can use crit amity for 40% more. Or can still use collateral amity.

Pretty sure I saw people in here complaining cd is weaker than crit. Gursa can effectively use both at once! Getting enough ward and cd chance for using cs comes at a pretty good cost. Can still swap some adorns out for mortars for cd damage too if it isnt killing. No worries though, you wont need as many since you have 4 for free. Even with the 15% in live i hut just fine with shackles on. Which puts me at AL 20 too for fights.

I should also mention that my gursa gear is not anguished nor optimized. I use a lot of heretic for dungeons except when testing since BL2 is insane. Wanting gursa boosted more is fair, but I just think it will take more than what the point of this update is since from what I see here, people want something new and there is a lot going on in this update to hyperfixate on one thing. Especially when the class is fine as it has been fine for a long time.

Thorn, asked them to say something before and they said they did not want to post since there is too much drama and they want no part of it.

BoF spec is great for damage and parting remark for aoe fights. DoF or Bof are gonna win aoe. Period. Running out of word count.

[rare oar]

Ang 15 is definitely not what I’d call high anguish 😅 At that point you’re still able to use swansong without much concern, and any class has little trouble clearing dungeons.

I’d really like to see how your build works at melancholy 25 for example. Because believe me, I’ve tried to make ursa work there, and it just can’t deal with it. Meanwhile base and herc are clearing that safely with minimal buffs.

This is exactly the point I’ve been making: saying a class is competent at lower anguish is irrelevant, because every single class is. Ursa has no differentiating points that make it better than the 2 other gilgas in beta, that’s the real issue here

[solid nest]

But anyways not saying it is in line with the other classes currently but a lot of the solutions suggested seem to be ones that will take time to work out, so I am hoping to focus on this patch and leave a possible change for the future. Currently comparing beta gursa to live gursa, it is fine atm. As the class has been for quite some time now.

Would like to see it better but also understand concern on how strong it will be for pvp. Most of the really cool suggestions seem like something out of scope for the patch, but if I am wrong Odie or Dangy or someone let me know!

[haughty crest]

mel 23, currently 181 AL non shackled

Pretty much the only usecase ursa has for me at the moment besides PvP.

[rare oar]

What happens when you don’t get the lugus proc at floor 16/25 and the fallen RS lives? Or if you try to run boss horde?

Not to mention it’s dependent on 2 very strong and rare amities 😅

Meanwhile base just goes mimics mischief -> gunrr and spams CS

[solid nest]

I mean 15 takes a lot of investment. Any devs able to give a stat on how many players have 15+ unlocked? % of t11 players that have unlocked it would be good to show.

Issue with gursa goes deeper than current changes though. If you were using ward skills, then live base and herc are still gonna do it better really.

Thank you yoshi. That is with presents on too! And full aoe instead of slice for more damage and no BoF i see. Slice has more than double that m1 😮 could have 15% more 2h power 😄 and could use a DC pet for double stats.

Amity mention is fair but... can use BoF or DoF for extra turns and use slice. Crit damage amity. Or trev charm instead of presents.

I get what you are saying but it definitely is feasible to use. I would rather wait for a really cool change especially since most short term ones are difficult since gursa is very strong in pvp. So most fixes will prob be around making frenzy more viable outside of raids.

Imo if frenzy doesnt take a turn, that gives gursa the damage needed to be where it needs to in pve. Issue atm is it not being feasible really. Counting on multiple turns to use it then go again right away... is meh.

[haughty crest]

hard boss horde, no lugus

[neon bramble]

Alright, could you dm me a name?

[haughty crest]

I'm not looking to pick any sides here.

This playstyle just works well for me since AoE crit makes my monkey brain happy 😆.

Yeah, at times I'll die but that's anguish.

In the end I'll agree with you Bordoadas (and others), I likely won't use a whole lot of ursa when venturing deeper into melancholy.

Current beta ursa lacks something that makes up for the loss of counterattack so as is the class will likely be less valuable to me.

I wonder if simple gear options with, for example +x% chance to proc frenzy could make ursa more attractive.

[gaunt nova]

Kinda proves the point tbh, a lot of risk for someone fairly optimized 110 AL above the shackle difficulty

[solid nest]

Oh that is also live right? So no 10% regen and no boosted CD boosts? And 5% 2h power.
CA in beta is only lost in pvp though. And yes Dangy mentioned possibility for gear like that which would be awesome!
Will want something as it is lackluster compared to others classes but it is still viable.

Slice DoF or BoF would do more damage too and swapping trev charm on for 15% more 2h. DoF extra turns is nice 👌

[rare oar]

I’m really struggling to understand this. Why would I ever choose to run slice, when CS exists? Comparable damage, but you get to run 400k ward instead of 60k

I get the argument for full AoE, even though I still think it eventually falls off in melancholy, but if I’m using a 1+1 skill, I’m choosing CS 100% of the time

[haughty crest]

Yeah that's on live, I wouldn't expect beta to make an incredible difference in performance. Maybe i get to chuck in another anguish level or two but ultimately Base/GilgaH will win.

That's pretty much the point in your guys' discussion

[neon bramble]

What do you think of Recharge for Ursa?

[solid nest]

Yea main point i am saying is losing ward power is not making gursa weaker. The boosts to it make it more of what it is and is a buff and the scope of what is needed to fix gursa is outside of what it seems they wish to do right now. Not saying it is incredible or anything. Just that it is feasible and the ward power thing is a pvp nerf and doesnt really matter for pve.

[haughty crest]

Ursa doesn't really need it i don't think. Mana is plenty (ward mana siphon) and fairly useless, atleast in 2h AoE builds. The single ashen ruby is already carrying me plenty.

Also not a big fan of recycling passives from other classes, which is why the "free turn frenzy" (think realmshifter, dursa, heretic flasks) wouldn't be my favorite kind of fix either.

[rare oar]

We don’t know what NF is willing to change in this patch. What we do know is that the current changes will make Ursa go from “sometimes used in PvE because it has PvP benefits” to “never used because it has no upside now”. And that’s cause enough for us to push for further changes, or for the reversal of the loss of ward power.

I’m okay with losing ward power eventually if that means making Ursa different, exciting to play and useful. But if bigger changes aren’t coming this patch, maybe the loss of ward power should be delayed until they can be made.

Does this sound like a fair compromise? Makes Ursa still usable in PvP while not being oppressive with auto-CA, and gives NF time to explore more exciting changes to the class

[solid nest]

Dont think making frenzy be free would be recycling so much as much as it is just making it on par with what other classes do. Apex for dursa and flask extra turns for heretic so they dont lose damage for their damage boost turns. Though frenzy does last longer, so there is that.

Ward power isnt a pve nerf though. It is a pvp nerf. Why? Because gursa being able to use ss3 effectively goes against the goal for the class and makes it insanely strong for pvp when combined with the large hp pool and being able to effectively stack ward and enough damage still.

The things that effect pve are boosted. CA is still there for pve and ward power doesnt really contribute. I am a fan of gursa getting frenzy auto-proc chance or something or gear giving it to allow it more viability in later anguish, but slice still works great. It isnt weaker in pve for it.

What would you do with ward power back? 10% ward regen covers your frenzy cost alone. With frenzy buffs and 2h buffs along with collateral damage... that is a lot of straight buffs for pve. Especially raids atm.

Pvp even when using crit attacks, you still end up very tanky. BoF? Still very tanky. Making it hard to get the ward to fully use that hp can be annoying, but it is a bit of balancing since gursa has been in its own league for pvp. It still is great even with the loss of ward power and CA. Just not insanely so.

[rare oar]

Ward power is definitely a PvE nerf. CS is the go to skill for melancholy 25+.

Regardless, most people use Ursa for PvP. Double nerfing it there (ward power + auto-CA removal) seems excessive, and will leave the class far in the shadow of the other 2. If you’re not building for SS3, you’re not getting enough ward to actually make your hp useful (you want your ward to, at minimum, be equal your hp to maximize your effective hp)

Concerning raids: the buffs are 100% irrelevant. Herc just doubles ursa’s damage easily, while being much safer, even in the beta

[solid nest]

I am aware of how it works. If you are using CS in live for pve, you are better off using either of the other gilgs. Or just using slice.

The buffs are not irrelevant in raids lol... it makes a large difference. Saying that another is better does not invalidate a buff. That is like saying heretic hits harder so any buffs to other classes are 100% irrelevant.

You can still get the ward needed, but now it costs more and even without the full ratio it is still more ehp than the other gilgs. Gursa is still plenty powerful and tanky in beta, just now it is more on par with others. Ward power exclusively pushed it into ss3 builds using a shield and axe vs the 2h bruiser.

[crimson bay]

Am I going crazy or are they debating 2 different ideas.

Flubby is saying beta ursa is playable and maybe In a fine spot.

Bordo is saying not that beta ursa is unplayable but the fact that the other 2 specs can do the same thing better/safer/quicker.

Please correct me if I'm wrong

[solid nest]

Trying to say it is stronger in pve and the pvp nerfs are necessary... the ward power is a pvp nerf not pve. It is a step in the right direction, and is playable but I dont think it is a final product.

But the best solutions seem to be things that will take more time to figure out details on so I dont think they are within the limits of this patch.

Reverting ward power would push gursa back into being unbalanced in pvp even if CA being gone for pvp is bringing it more into alignment already. Both were issues and I see why they both were removed for balance.

Devs can correct me if I am wrong, I just dont want to spam here on ideas if there is already a different place for suggestions we can post those in! Though I do love a lot of the ones that were given.

Seems like these changes have mostly been about adjusting numbers and where perks are rather than creating new things from scratch, or reworking the class entirely. I love the theme gursa has and love seeing it put more into being diff from other gilgs.

As much as i hate to say, it goes into what Goody Phil said before on it being nice to have options other than ss skills and gursa gives that. Even if I like having my ss3 on my herc! 🙂

[neon bramble]

CA was the problem, not ward power.
The same text keeps on being repeated now...

[rare oar]

Aren’t they the same thing? If a gilga player has no reason to play ursa because base and herc outdo it at everything, doesn’t that mean ursa is useless?

If changes need more time (which is perfectly reasonable in a patch this size), then shouldn’t we make sure a class isn’t rendered useless while it waits for further buffs that might take months/years to ever materialize?

Bringing back ward power with auto-CA removed wouldn’t make ursa any stronger than other classes like deity, BeoH etc

[crimson bay]

Honestly? No. They're not the same thing. Just because one class is weaker then the others doesn't make that class "useless".

In a sense of meta gaming I could see how someone could see ursa as useless but to say the class is useless is just not true.

While I'm not taking any sides I do understand what both of you are saying.

[strong rose]

I agree that Gursa will not be as attractive of an option as Base and Herc after this beta with the current changes. I feel that its main usefulness in territory defense is being majorly nerfed, which removes a huge reason for using it. I was happy giving up Auto CA and Ward Power, because I thought it would let us lean way more into being a 2h specialist, but with these changes, if I wanted to really lean into 2 handers, I would go play BeoH or Dara. There's no substantial benefit anywhere to playing Gursa over Base and Herc anymore as far as effectiveness and efficiency. I really like the idea of allowing Frenzy to stick on turns spent attacking as I think this would help fill some other niches that Base and Herc don't cover, like endless and hordes.

[crimson bay]

That is Bordo's point. Now @solid nest point is the class is still very much a viable class to play. Would it be a worse version of herc or base in this state? Maybe, but they're 2 different statements.

That's the point I'm trying to clear up, once we can all get on the same page the quicker we can all come to a good solution

[stoic yacht]

What exactly is holding GUrsa back? Is it a lack of damage or penetration?

[solid nest]

Both were really. CA just the bigger one. It gave just enough damage for gursa to still use high tank builds with ss3 and having it all really.

@rare oar ... the change doesnt make it useless... it makes it more of the same but balanced in pvp... and one being better does not make it "useless." That is basically like saying no one play gilg at all unless you like doing a lot of pvp. Other classes have viable options for pvp too so pvp isnt the reason to pick a class over another either. Especially once gursa is balanced in live.

@crimson bay yea I agree with you there. And only place it is said to be "worse" is very very high anguish... above what is essentially the soft cap. 2.0 anguish 25 = 1.0 anguish 50. Would be very interested to see the % of players over 15 anguish.

The ward power is just trying to get the tank builds back on with ss3 for easy damage with being back to very high survivability levels vs the current beta which is still above average survivability with high damage for crit.

Keep in mind gursa is still tankier than base and herc with a 2h.

@stoic yacht they are saying the penetration. Slice has same penetration as CS tho... and can hit multi and crits. Uses attack and 2h so... lots of attack when using it too.

Full aoe loses a ton of penetration but still viable for a long time with the yel blade, just lack m1 later. But that is always the cost of full aoe.

Which is why I would love some method of using frenzy without taking a turn, boosts base attack to fix it. Though currently it is still effective to use.

But in the meantime, beta still has been boosted up and has been balanced for pvp.

[stoic yacht]

Would giving GUrsa a boost to penetration as well as 2h damage solve the general complaints of the class?

Or at least see what the numbers look like before creating whole new mechanics that'll take who knows how long to develop and the several iterations before we as a community are happy

The main issue I see thrown around is why use x/y/z when CS exists and it feels like NF is trying to separate GUrsa from the normal SS/CS play in hopes of more variety of play.

What can we use that isn't CS/Slice but would fit the idea of GUrsa.

[fierce marsh]

From what I've read (you guys could make a novel with all these words 😅) the problem is without CA or a bit of ward power, there's nothing.... interesting to use gursa for. It lacks something sufficient to make up for the loss of passives. That's what one side is trying to say right? I agree with that. Why settle for less when you can attempt to add a bit of flavor to the class? Looking at class lines, mage, thief, hells even summoner all the celestial branches have a great deal of difference between them.

[stoic yacht]

What if herc could use a shield in the main hand? It could have a passive that's like swash but scales with def/res

[muted blade]

Sweep?

[stoic yacht]

I'd rather not hard tie spec's to classes so that we have variety and different avenues to play. If our only option is going to be sweep then we will always be stuck as zwei. There are so many spec's that weird interesting and fun builds can be made as long as you have a good foundation to build with

[muted blade]

Sweep is also on some gear and weapons...

[austere cliff]

Make Ursa Strike usable in PvP; upgrade the ability Rada Stomp of its respective T10 weapons to Rada Stomp 2; create new 2h weapons or skills for Gilga Ursa that works with 1-turn defense and attack. Add the Defense Power passive to Gilga Ursa without touching his other passives. Spiked Greaves give collateral damage and debuff collateral chance. Spiked Pauldrons give collateral chance and debuff collateral damage. Having both Greaves and Pauldrons gives low buff collateral chance and damage. Boost Spiked Shield skills at least a little bit for all classes!

[crimson bay]

I've been meaning to throw this out there too. Would it be possible to get a QoL buff and have CD % and damage tracked in our stats?
That way we don't have to add it up by hand

[muted blade]

Would be nice if monoceros pet could get cd passive 🧐

[pallid quarry]

You mean using a shield in the weapon slot and also in the off-hand?

[stoic yacht]

Yup

[pallid quarry]

I had the same idea for a while, I mean herc's Sprite has two shields lol, but the thing is shields dont have attack, so how would it work? Create a new type of weapon specifically for herc? Make a passive that boosts your attack based on the ward% of your shields?

[stoic yacht]

Give herc a passive the opposite of swash, the more def/res you have the higher your attack is. It doesn't have to be that high and would incentive being tanky again rather than everyone going BoF. It would also leave spec open for more DMG/ward from cata or using zerks from raider. There are all kinds of shields that never get used because of SGS but with this it lets you run 2 SGS for more ward power or an arisen shield/Ymir/Phoenix/whatever for more defensive/status immunities.

[quaint mural]

🛳️

[slow dome]

Ensseric has said we can ship it, let's go!

Joking aside - let's try and reign in these conversations to be less circular.
Couple of things that are super helpful for betas:

• Show tested numbers, even comparisons to live (Like Yoshi has above, super useful for productive conversation)
• Be specific when categorising utility. Simply saying something is unusable without qualifiers of 'in PvP' makes things very muddy, and can lead people to the wrong inferences
• Try and focus on problem statements, and solutions to those problems. You can check out posts like this from Kaine for solid inspiration on how to frame issues, and solutions: #1437849816523866222 message

The last week or so has been loaded with opinions and very little numbers based testing and solutions. Let's get to the testing component, show examples, and provide options from there!

Also if a solution to core concerns can come via future gearing, that's actually just a big win and great for longevity. So let's keep that in mind as we problem solve

[slow dome]

I've reduced the chat cooldown back to 1 minute on good faith that we're shifting the chatter into numbers sharing, and productive solutions to core issues highlighted through testing :)

[slow dome]

Yes, aware the Gilgamesh one is there. It has rarely been cited by the recent discussions (and I'm assuming everyone has read that), so wanted to give an alternate framing to look at to hopefully get people more energised to frame their posting more productively.

Just trying to shift conversations from anecdotal to tangible here :)

[stoic yacht]

No worries, was just forwarding it here for more visibility.

Is what's listed concerns still being discussed? From what I've seen most of the recent discussion has been GUrsa, it's identity and use as a class.

[slow dome]

There's a lot of chatter about Ursa recently, yes.
Unsure there is established consensus on what the exact core issue is, and the solution to that issue (over the last few days).

[neon bramble]

Ursa live was king of pvp defence, conq and war defence -> has CA removed. Think we all accepted this. Ward power is also taken away which renders Ursa now bad at pvp defence.
I think the chatter and opinions are about the fact that Ursa beta does nothing better than Base and Herc, the small buffs dont make up for the things taken and/or make up for other content to be good at. Thus Ursa feels dead.

[rare oar]

I think the consensus is that Ursa is performing worse than the other 2 gilgas pretty much across the board. I don’t have access to the beta for the next few days since the wife is on vacation (unless iOS beta drops 👀), but I’ll post a few videos after I get access back to it.

[neon bramble]

I think most ppl agreed for some kind of solution as Lord Yoshi posted:
". This is how my blueprint would look like:
[...]
Ideally I'd see it replaced with a passive that scales of off collateral damage procs. That passive should:

• enable gursa to thrive more in long form content
• introduce an interactive mechanic
• stay a boost to m1 rather than temp buffs.
  & shouldn't:
• be a 1:1 dara apexline copy. maybe have the charges decay? "

[empty meteor]

Herc is actually the leader for PvP defense atm. Then DUrsa

[slow dome]

So for summary purposes, getting us all on the same page:

Community perspective is Ursa's identity was PvP beast, that is no longer the case.

Community wants to carve out new identity, bit of back on forth as to what specifically that should be, with many suggestions.

Is that fairly accurate?

[pallid quarry]

I like it, needs some adjustment or needs to be discussed more but i think it will either never happen or will be the center of another balance patch/rework
It would make herc unique instead of "hey ur literally base gilga with a bit more ward" at least thats how i saw it, talking about being "unique" since it was mentioned in the ursa discussion

[stoic yacht]

The in-game herc sprite is a gilga with 2 shields and the Ursa one looks to be wielding a 2h or just no shield so

[neon bramble]

Kinda feel like its a 1handed sword. I've put my blooded blade in the ground next to it for comparison 🤣

[slow dome]

Thanks for the little check marks, helps us narrow this down.
So for identity, rather than thinking about it as content bucket competency, what if instead we thought about it as the flavour that separates this class from others.

Ursa currently is geared toward being good with Two Handed weapons, and I may be off base here, but judging by the notes around Ward Power I'd imagine leaning into Two Handed weapons isn't something people are doing lots, even on Ursa.

So, to get the juices flowing - what is missing from your perspective to improve the QoL of Two Handed Weapon use?

If this is off base, let me know

[gaunt nova]

One small thing is that ursa reduces total ward. My sense is this is an anti spiked shield measure but with new SS equation not as effective and loss of ward power double dips on anti spiked shield.

In effect it reduces the capacity of ursa to use a 2h build and have equal hp and ward, the gold standard for defense. Ursa having full ward would help 2h builds without reenabling spiked shield.

[slow dome]

Yeah we shouldn't aim for SS building here on Ursa, I don't think. It's quite unique to the other Gilga classes, so better to not try to template them the same

[stoic yacht]

Wouldn't Ursa end up with more ward then base/herc due to the larger hp pool?

[gaunt nova]

With the same build yeah, but ursa is going 2h now. Makes it pretty difficult to have an effective 2h build where ward matches hp.

We're double dipping on anti SS measures now whereas one really doesnt serve its purpose anymore but actively hinders survivability of 2h

[slow dome]

Increasing total ward, is nearly separate from ward power.
Ursa has high HP, and increasing the Ward doesn't seem to align with that stylistically. It's just too many large defensive numbers, rather than focusing on offensive power with two handers.

I don't think that's the approach I'd take to encourage folks to play with Two Handers more, they'll just use a shield again

[fathom vortex]

What if Ursas's 2H power actually boosted all the stats on the 2H weapons?

[slow dome]

That's a suggestion that Yoshi had made, in the Gilgamesh summary

[rare oar]

What if ursa’s passive also boosted the ward gained from 2H weapons? Prevents people from going into 1h + shield to get tons of ward, while still allowing Ursa to have usable ward in PvP

[fathom vortex]

Hmmm, I missed that, mb

[slow dome]

I think for me personally I'm not sure about ward being the right thing to target here - doesn't that just natually gravitate people toward SS/CS again?

[rare oar]

Thing is, in a build with 130k hp for example, you have a hard time getting even to 130k ward. In PvP you always want to have enough ward to cover your hp, to increase your effective hp for turn 1

[gaunt nova]

I don't think so, if I wanted to run ss even with the reduction still relatively easy to hit 200k with a shield which is now the cap. Any buffs to ward would be a survival measure for ursa. Personally I always viewed ursa as the class that could take a hit and hit back.

[slow dome]

Ok, let's table that component for now and keep it in mind. We can check mark that survivability is the concern, rather than specifically does it have enough ward

Still to me it'd be good to hear a little more about specifically two hander usage - what can you not kill, and the contextual information (Anguish level, content type etc)

[rare oar]

I think the bigger question is what should Ursa be excelling at? Where does the studio view ursa? I’ve always looked at it more as a PvP class, hence the ward concerns, but that may not be NFs vision.

In which case it would help to know exactly what NF thinks the class should be able to accomplish so we can properly give feedback on it

[whole prism]

I have a little silly idea so if it's bad don't be mad at me👉👈

What if when GUrsa enters a battle with a 2H weapon (or uses frenzy with a 2H) it gives him a random buff (for example gives GUrsa crit dmg buff when entering battle) and the buff would show up next to all the other buffs

The buff would carry over in dungoen floors and such.
-# again this is just a little silly suggestion so don't be mad👉👈

[neon bramble]

Just a rush of ideas:

• have 2handers auto hit 2 targets (with Ursa).
• be able to wear 2 two-handed weapons at a time with reduced stats and so on (Ursa).
• 2handers come with more unique off-hand abilities/or upgraded versions offhand abilities when wielded by Ursa.

Just ideas that came to mind dont kill me.

[slow dome]

Thanks Thornius, won't kill you, appreciate the ideas!
Re: having Two Handers automatically hit two targets, do you mean +1 target? Just imagining scenarios where you use a skill that already hits two targets

[neon bramble]

Yes +1 target. So like a 100% chain damage chance.

[slow dome]

For the purposes of teasing this out with me right now, assume it's "good at using two handers".

In general community tends to think that design is based around excelling at a content type, but it rarely is.

[slow dome]

I don't hate this, nice little active impact passive

[rare oar]

It’s more that it’s easier to test when you know what content the class is going to be used in. Regardless, if I had to estimate, I’d say PvP, dungeons and towers are a good goal to look at, since I doubt we could ever beat base/herc in raids

[slow dome]

I get the temptation to focus on the content type, but any gaps in content type can be bridged by things like gearing implementations. It's better to design the flavour of the class around mechanics, which deepens the pool of possibilities, and leaves it less boxed in for future.

If you look at the problem statement right now, folks had Ursa boxed in to PvP, rather than a mechanic. Let's get a mechanic rolling, and then allow ourselves lots of opportunities to build upon that identity in various content types over time

Chain Damage chance seems quite interesting to me, and works well with thief gearing options. Do folks like the idea of tying together two handers and chain damage, per Thornius' suggestion?

[stoic yacht]

I like it because I find myself using Ursa for horde content as I don't personally like using chained shield

[rare oar]

Honestly? I’m not a huge fan, simply because I don’t ever see it excelling in higher anguish content because of ursa’s lower survivability.

I’m more of a fan of the proposed change to make frenzy not fade as long as Ursa keeps attacking. Allows Ursa to go deeper into CD damage bonus, and gives it a niche in things like endless (assuming that change also made frenzy persist between floors)

[slow dome]

ATM I don't believe we'll be changing frenzy to stay active between floors. There's already a few changes to frenzy that we'll need to see played by a mass audience before touching it further.

I'm right there with you guys on wanting it to stay active between floors or have an option to have it active at the start of tower battles, but for now I think that one falls outside of scope of what will be looked at for this patch

[rare oar]

That’s fair. I still don’t think chained damage would move the needle much.

I think most people’s concerns with 2H builds are related to survivability.