Mage Rework Feedback Thread

[main granite]

You realize there's no damage cap if both players are on their 2nd turn right

[lusty nimbus]

Also- any class can do this. Chronomancer is the enabler

[main granite]

^

[lusty nimbus]

Heretic has nothing to do with this lol

[dim sluice]

Yeah. Not a heretic thing

I can’t bypass that rule.

[main granite]

Are we surprised that Heretic now has the damage potential that most other classes do?

[dim sluice]

It always had it. I never had a problem with damage on PvP. I had issues with actually hitting and with surviving, which I still do

I’ve regularly been able to hit for 1-2m on turn 2 since forever

[main granite]

But how much have you sacrificed for that damage potential

Bc now you don't have to

[dim sluice]

(Thanos voice) everything

[main granite]

We have kill potential without jumping through a hundred hoops and being paper thin

[dim sluice]

Nah. I used my regular build. Max magic zero defenses

Oh. I can try a defensive build like Gilgas use. Want the numbers on that? 😂😂

I disagree so much with it being broken it’s not funny. No defenses is not an exaggeration.

With no second chance cause of mimic. Please.

I would’ve hit him even harder than that. Would make 150k seem like a joke. Without missing too

Nah. Builds like that are way too specialized. I just disagree. Big hits on heretic have a really hefty price.

[storm viper]

Zero Def, Res low enough to get killed by magic, passable Dex against fellow mages and Valhallans but not enough for anything else so Ray is absolutely required.

Yeah... Not even sure that it's a fair trade but it's what we're used to, I suppose.

[dim sluice]

Calling for nerfs with ss3 running around rampant is wild. On 10k defenses build with 80k hp and 500k ward. With Gursa counter and collateral bypassing BoF rules or 120k hp 400k ward. And deities doing the same. lol.

[storm viper]

(I'm agreeing by the way; clarity and brevity aren't strengths of mine, as many have probably noticed 😅)

[dim sluice]

But yeah. Let’s nerf the zero defense 1,200 res no second chance all in Heretic

[main granite]

I do think there are much more resilient builds for Heretic now

[dim sluice]

I agree. I don’t think they work well though.

For example

This is my ultima build

Against a BoF opponent and a max defense deity. Just to showcase the difference in their defenses

Dorado survived too.

You know I was deleted after

After a certain point, there is no other build. You can’t beat any decently ascended Gilga with nothing except a crazy max magic build

[main granite]

Did the deity have an elemental defene amity? What's your AL

[dim sluice]

Oh. You’re right. He has 80 amity. Sweet. Another counter

[main granite]

Also can't exactly compare those two opponents with an 85 AL difference

Ultima is unfortunately not good in pvp once your opponent chooses to counter it

[dim sluice]

I mean…BoF with passive

[main granite]

Oops yeah

Forgot lol

[dim sluice]

Not much difference. I was just showcasing ultima agaisnt low defenses vs high defenses.

Mine isn’t max magic. It can go higher. But that would also mean I wouldn’t hit either of them

[main granite]

Yeah I feel you, but my point is that we have to (and now, can better) avoid relying on Ultima

[dim sluice]

What would you have used instead?

[main granite]

Lemme grab a thing

[dim sluice]

Oh man. I kinda wish sokam would volunteer to get thrown around (throw people around)

I’m not saying that we’re in a bad spot. I’m saying we’re in a good place. We’re strong, not broken. I hate not being able to defend, but I gave up on that

For example…how would a heretic win this match up

He hits for 180k on turn one.

What build survives that? And then wins on one turn without missing? I’d need to hit at least 200k

[main granite]

Heretic's best turn 1 nuke is ultima for sure

We are not in a good place for turn 1 nuking in lategame pvp

But we do have this

This build isn't even close to optimized for damage. I'm on sequencer for no reason, full of achlys souls for ultima

[dim sluice]

There’s a lot to unpack there

[main granite]

For sure; but the framework is real and can be built around

That's a turn 2 nuke that oneshots basically anyone as long as you go second

[dim sluice]

Tell you what. I’ll try it on my no miss build. (You kinda can’t miss for anything to be considered good)

[main granite]

I'm using a nolan staff there

[main granite]

Turn 1 use a trielemental to charge the flask

[dim sluice]

Same

As expected. I need to hit twice on that build

That won’t work with that one. Won’t even try twice.

[main granite]

This isn't BoF and I said it was a turn 2 nuke

What is your "nomiss" build

[dim sluice]

Nolan

I can up it to 57

But it doesn’t work well

[main granite]

Your flasks still charge off a miss btw

[dim sluice]

With double cast it does enough.

[main granite]

Dc is probably less than mag++ tmag+++

But yeah

[dim sluice]

But he had no DC

Nah. DC wins

[main granite]

You had no mag buffs there

[dim sluice]

When factoring in defense, the buff to defense gets applied first. The mag 2/3 get applied AFTER you penetrate

Lemme try it again and make sure his DC is up.

[main granite]

Why use steward golem

[dim sluice]

Instant zero

[dim sluice]

Cause it doesn’t matter. I was zeroed

The only way around that is to increase magic on the stat page. Not buffs

[main granite]

You were 0'd... with no mag buffs... and nothing else

[main granite]

That's not true at all

[dim sluice]

@vestal garnet @lusty nimbus am I wrong? I’m almost positive I’m not

[main granite]

Just put on mimic and test

[dim sluice]

Will do

[main granite]

Aaru robe for even more

[dim sluice]

Yup. I was correct

So only way around that is to nuke your stats with sky shoes and heretic robe and Aaru head

[main granite]

Getting 0'd doesn't mean it does nothing

Put on aaru robe

[dim sluice]

I did

Lol

[main granite]

Oop missed that

[dim sluice]

Yeah. That’s how magic vs res works. Defense buffs are applied before contact. And offense buffs are applied after contact

I’m bad at explaining. I just know my way around it lol.

[main granite]

What opponent are you fighting? This isn't bof so how much al

[dim sluice]

I’m not gonna go into BoF. lol. I have no one to spar with.

[main granite]

I'm not convinced as that's not how M1 and M2 works from my u derstanding

How much AL

[dim sluice]

That’s sokam. He’s 100 something something. 112 I think?

Im 67

[main granite]

And you?

Ok that's a pretty hefty difference

[dim sluice]

Meh….

Kind of

Not really

[main granite]

60% extra stats matter lol

[dim sluice]

Nuking my stats with a high magic build makes me one shot him

The point is being defensive on a heretic is easy to beat. Cause magic is too low

[main granite]

You're still talking about oneshotting someone 50-60 ALs higher

[dim sluice]

They don’t have to sacrifice offense to build defenses with ss3 and rend

[main granite]

It's not a good comparison

[dim sluice]

Nuking magic

He would still zero me out if he got GF and DC off

[main granite]

Yeah penetration works like that

It doesn't mean defensive buffs take precedence necessarily. I'm not sure either way

[dim sluice]

Well. All that blah blah just to say, heretic isn’t op. Glass cannon that can hit just as hard as a tank. We don’t need buffs either. We’re perfectly fine as is

Id love to see 80 res amities go down. But all in due time

[main granite]

I agree heretic isn't op; we may be breaking out of the glass cannon pigeonhole though

[dim sluice]

I’ll agree with you on this. It is much more flexible than before.

I just think that when push comes to shove, against a monster, you’ll need to nuke your stats to win

[main granite]

I'm reserving judgment until more testing is done. The lack of reliable turn 1 nuking is still a big drawback to the class

But I think you should need to nuke your defensive stats to get a turn 1 nuke. Other classes don't follow that paradigm

[dim sluice]

Exactly

And that brings us to ss3 and the end 😂

[main granite]

Btw you can also build for flask charge and use bloodloss plus sigilflask

[storm viper]

Buffs to Def & Res are applied to the actual stat whereas Att & Mag buffs are applied to the damage. If you do zero without buffs, you'll still do zero after them.

The exceptions are Gaits and passives like Iconoclast because they boost the stat rather than the damage.

That's my understanding of it, last time I saw it explained.

[vestal garnet]

This and Blue/ redline correct

[dim sluice]

Right. And blue line. Yeah.

Completely forgot. All my offense builds drain all my mana in 4-5 turns.

[vestal garnet]

Mimics mischief doesn't fix a 0 damage hit

For exampe

[main granite]

You can do it in 1.5 turns instead

With bloodflask

Read up on the damage formula, thanks all for clearing that up

So to pierce DC/golem's, you'd want a build with a scroll to charge a bloodflask turn 1, and be able to use bloodloss/sigilflask. I know this is what other heretics have already been using to reach crazy numbers

[dim sluice]

Yes. Technically that is what you’re supposed to do. Being able to do it though is a very different topic

But yeah. Like I said, we’re in a good place. I feel that the trade offs are fair. We stack offensive power fast, the more turns the battle goes on, the more dangerous we are.

A one turn battle against a heretic is very different from a 2 turn battle, or a 3…4…you get it

[main granite]

It's completely doable, as I said I've seen people doing it in bof

And scrolls having ward now means it's not as paperthin

[crisp trout]

How do you feel about the tri elemental in pvp, mobile? Haven't attempted any builds with it, but I was thinking those could be spells that allow us to somewhat build defensively while have a slight benefit offensively also

[main granite]

Tri elementals are probably the best way to charge in pvp. Baseline they already give you a manaflask turn 1, building for charge they can give you a bloodflask turn 1

[crisp trout]

Other than that, I don't see much help in ai pvp lol. Based on the convo it seems we're ok in bof now

[main granite]

I also heard trielementals aren't affected by resistance/immunity like ultima, and that they have greater m1 than ultima

[crisp trout]

Yeah. That's why I figured tri element may actually be the best thing for ai pvp. Charges are flasks fast and can be used up if the ai is using them. I'll have to run some setups at some point and see how the ai is acting in the live game

M1 is 3 I believe. I did hit a resist against a deity with it yesterday. Only tried it once since I wasn't built for a non crit setup

I heard it was supposed to ignore resistance too. Maybe that's PvE only

[dim sluice]

Lol. Trash.

[main granite]

Maybe it just lied about resist, like Ultima?

[dim sluice]

Nah. Not trash. Just not great at our level

On my alt though. A MONSTER spell

[crisp trout]

Well I have a lot more AL maybe it's viable for me

[main granite]

I'm interested in a critless flask build

[dim sluice]

I tried it. They don’t do enough damage against our regular kind of opponent

Much better a tank that can ultima 2

[dim sluice]

What Al are you? 250?

[dim sluice]

Doubt that.

Well. Lemme say it different

[main granite]

As wrecked said, m1 of 3 which is higher than ultima..

[dim sluice]

Not doubt. But more like that crit multiplier is too good to ignore

Ultima is 4 iirc

[main granite]

I'll go check ig

[dim sluice]

The % to debuff is much higher though…

[lusty nimbus]

With 2 Beguiled Sticks, a 15% water amity and BB1 with Anubis I'm up to 45-50k damage without any Buffs in PvP. Nothing game breaking but definitely not nothing

But hard to pass up the crits of Ultima and Cele arrow

[dim sluice]

I like we’re were at right now. I really think we’re ok.

[main granite]

Yeah 4, ultima 2 is 6. Had 2.7 in mind for some reason

That must be the critseals?

[dim sluice]

2.7 are the other omnimancy spells iirc

The 2s

Scorched earth 2

[main granite]

Makes sense, critseals are 2.4

Better m1 than those at least

Scythe, arrow, and ultima are the best nukes but still hard countered by amities. Shame

Well not scythe sorry

[dim sluice]

The new omnimancy spells do have a lot of potential. Not gonna lie

[main granite]

They're decent in endless from what I heard?

[dim sluice]

Probably very good

Probably not as good as QC ultima though. But can be more defensive with those

[lusty nimbus]

I will be trying out the Tri-Elementals in endless on Base sometime in the next few days. I have a feeling they'll run out of accuracy but I like having options to play with

[crisp trout]

Can we get heretic/ mage line basic attack to use the magic stat rather than the attack stat?
(Realistically would rather see the attack or magic stat prioritized on basic attack for all classes)

[cyan geyser]

doesn't it already do that?

gunnr nerfs my damage while snotra buffs it

pretty sure all beos, gs and dara are considered mages and scale their attack button of off magic aswell

if this says spells your attack button scales of magic

[main granite]

Can we change the name of the attack button for magic based classes then

"Spell attack" or something? Not sure

[lusty nimbus]

"Cantrip"!

[left coyote]

Or let us replace it with a spell

[median frost]

Mana punch 🤜

[astral moth]

Only if a captain falcon interpretation plays every time you use it

[worn wolf]

Yes so I cast Mage Hand Okay and Now I use my fighter spec to box the shit outta this goblin with the Mage Hand

[left coyote]

Are we happy with manaseep?. I don't see any point where I want my mana to become 0

[buoyant ridge]

DOONGANS

[umbral musk]

Certainly not, I don't want to be 0 mana when bad luck hits.

[left coyote]

What about changing it to mana Regen?

[whole lion]

Maybe deactivating it should be possible without costing a turn?

[buoyant ridge]

I never use it. I just use bloodloss and call it a day

[shut temple]

that's because bloodloss lets you have an extra turn xD, i use manaseep in anguish horde boss

maybe it should be the other way around

bloodloss doesn't gives a turn and manaseep does :x

Yeah of course you wouldnt you nasty turnlust

[unreal flume]

Why is the studio so insistent on keeping a flask that isn't good? Mana seep is slow, doesn't turn off on its own, and uses more mana than anyone wants.

Put a higher charge, maybe 20% and make it automatically deactivate after consuming 80%, that would already be an improvement.

Currently consuming 5% it takes many floors to get to where it should, and when it gets there, I don't want to risk a shift to deactivate it.

[fluid sky]

But even then and with 0 turns, what would the use case be? I cant think of any situation it would be better than bloodloss,. Why wait while you can instant blueline

[unreal flume]

I don't remember suggesting turn 0 🤔, that was someone else's idea up there, right?

I think they could remove that, but I'm just trying to point out that anything else is better than the current one, spending 16 turns and only getting to 20% mana remaining? I've pretty much finished the dungeon at this point, in PvP it's completely unusable, tower even less so....

[fluid sky]

sorry i wasnt clear, i meant 0 turn/auto deactivation. I agree with you that the current iteration is just taking up space on my screen

[unreal flume]

The right thing is, automatically disabling it isn't perfect, saying I'm happy would be an exaggeration, I prefer something like mana regeneration 😂😂 but I've said it so many times that I gave up, I'm putting it in the idea

A tool is usually created for a purpose. But we have a tool with no purpose at all in our bag, and even though we try to find a use for it, it's not working. It would be a good time for the studio to say the purpose of creating this tool...

A tool that requires so much effort to find a use should not exist.

[storm viper]

Aligned Sigilflask and Elemental Stormflask are completely missing from T10 mages...

The former likely won't happen and, although we didn't seem to care for it, I would welcome back the latter over Manaseep.

[unreal flume]

If those are the options, I would lean towards Aligned Sigil

[storm viper]

Agreed but it's unlikely, based on prior discussion about flasks 😕

It occurred to me too late that the Elemental Stormflask ignores raid boss immunities as well... Still very niche but more helpful than Manaseep.

[main granite]

Mana seep seems to be primarily intended for high AL endless from what I've seen mentioned

Which is a little weird

[left coyote]

I think regen would be a fine alternative.

Id probably trade banishment for something different too

[lusty nimbus]

Yeah I can't make use of manaseep at AL49 😬 I have tried every which way I can come up with to no avail

Regen would be significantly more useful to the majority of Heretic gameplay 🤔 in my experience

[lean rampart]

From the previously voiced proposals - remove the flask for temporary buffs and the mana flask, and replace them with one flask with temporary buffs and mana regeneration for several fixed turns. Let's say, from 4 to 6 turns, depending on the charge.
It is even possible to do the opposite - from 6 to 4, so that spamming flask to update the buffs would be slightly less profitable for "micro control" of mana. But here we need to test.

[shut temple]

Manaseep buff = give t.def+t.res++ and % mana regen for the same guaranteed turns than inflection (maybe less) and then high % of wore off

Given by manaseep flask

Or keep inflection separately and give only tdef/res+

[lime leaf]

This is how you know that theres a real problem… if golden voice has an issue with it xd

[native karma]

Is there something new in beta lately?

[finite talon]

Why is my AI picking omniflask so much? A two turn weak attack.
It picks omniflask or mana ray about 50%.
it seems when the AI has one full flask, it automatically does a weak flask skill.

Mana Ray is only useful when the opponent is 1hp and hasn't Divine Bastion'd.

And omniflask is completely useless and leaves you vulnerable if you aren't setup for quck-casting.

Just awful.

[umbral musk]

I feedback on the poor AI decision before.

I have the same result as tubbug too. AI is wasting turn using omni flask when there are better spell in the set

Same goes for mana ray, i still have plenty of hp left (20k left)

[dreamy gazelle]

Does bloodloss flask turn skip only work with a full flask? I've been trying it on BoF and I never get an extra turn, I use it unfilled (about 75%) but the description of the flask says "...and take an additional turn", contrary to sigil flask that says that it "may grant an additional turn".

I would assume that the fullness of the flask would only vary on the amount of mana you get removed, not the % chance of getting the turn skip.

[native karma]

all flasks which could or 100% take extra turn need full flask to take extra turn

When u use with <100% flask, they never take extra turn

[dreamy gazelle]

Ty for the info

[main granite]

I'd like to see manaseep simply stop burning mana at around uhh... 10% mana? 15%? And then just sit and wait until mana goes above that threshold again, where it drains mana again

So it's just always bringing you to that threshold instead of forcing you to turn it off or something

[astral moth]

That would be cool, yeah

it would defeat a bit of what I think is its only current purpose of bringing you down to actually 0 mana

for all we say against it, manaseep is the most accessible way we have of reaching the elusive full blue line

I would be much more inclined to use if instead it stayed as it was but gave even a small boost to offense

or defense

When one stops to think about it, Asteria Stance does have an effect attached to it (not one I particularly like, mind you) so it would still be semi-consistent

FWIW - Manaseep and Banishment are the only flasks I don't use regularly. All the others are useful in my experience

Not to distract from the conversation, but just to also address Banishment - I think it has been suggested here before that it could dispel temp buffs, or even actual buffs. There aren't very many enemies who buff themselves who are also difficult to kill, but I would be very incentivized to use it against the creatures who do (most notably Morrigan, and IMO berserk monsters who received "Sonata of X" buffs in BG hordes)

[unreal flume]

One note, as far as I remember, we don't need 0 mana to blueline 100% (correct me if I'm wrong)

[main granite]

The easiest way to reach full blueline is to cast bloodloss and then cast a handful of spells 😂

[astral moth]

is it though? I hate doing math and bringing a bunch of spells with different mana costs to get to actual 100% (0 mana)

[main granite]

You can have some mana and have 100% blueline. Not much can make use of that mana, but I think mana thinblade is a way

I feel like reaching 100% blueline is much more niche than 90%

[astral moth]

that is definitely true

[astral moth]

at the very least you have to pretty darn close.

within fractions of 1% of your total mana

a feat that becomes increasingly hard as you gain ALs

[umbral musk]

I would keep to 90% mana instead of 100%, just in case things go south

[finite talon]

I have not come across where Mana sweep is useful. But that could be on me.
I use bloodloss. that's nice.

omniflask should absolutely not be in pvp or at least not be picked for AI. Heretic is quite bad compared to other classes in pvp already.

AI choosing to do a flask skill automatically when one flask is filled is quite bad. Mana Ray is situational and does nothing for us if automatically shoots off when a opponent has a large amount of hp left

[trail sphinx]

I think this would be insane for build variety and solves the whole dance between mana regeneration and mana cost some builds have

[main granite]

Too insane?

[trail sphinx]

But as a tradeoff, maybe it's temporary like Bloodshift is? I feel it might be a smidge overpowered to have essentially 0 mana cost for lots of spells if you slot in some large mana recovery

It would fulfill the same/similar role as Bloodshift, while still making that bar useful

Can do Corvus shenanigans with it of course, but maybe permanent is a bit too overpowered

[main granite]

Could just turn itself off when it reaches the 10% threshold?

[trail sphinx]

Manaseep isn't super useful as it stands, and kind of fulfills the same job as Bloodloss but with longer duration and greater effect (looking at 2H builds)

[main granite]

Force you to turn it on again if you want it

[trail sphinx]

Then I feel we swing back the other way - if we want that without much effort, making turning it off 0 turns (and persisting temps) is basically equivalent

I forget if turning it off already is 0 turns

[main granite]

Turning it off is 0 flask cost, but still takes a turn

Iirc

Just confirmed: Always takes a turn to use manaseep. To turn it off, you need at least 25% charge but it doesn't decrease the charge

[main granite]

Not sure I get this point; making spells cost 0 mana is not an issue and can already be done

[trail sphinx]

Right, but it's a very challenging thing to do and takes some build consideration

This would be lowered down to (for most cases) having some mana regen amity or accessory

[main granite]

Ok sure, because you don't need anything to match, you would just want a bit of excess mana regen instead of more exact amounts

So you think it would be fine as a temporary status/buff that only decreases mana if you're above 10% or whatever

[lusty nimbus]

If it's temporary, it still has some synergy with crit poise 🤔

I think I'd rather have the mana regeneration myself but that idea is interesting

[main granite]

Odie come approve/disapprove pls

[uncut shoal]

I'll go with this, for endless..

[trail sphinx]

Odie is in fact in vacation still methinks

[umbral musk]

Anyone can find a use for omni flask?

[dreamy gazelle]

screen filler?

I've only really used sigil and bloodlossflask

[umbral musk]

I know it is meant for new heretic players, but I struggle to find any use for it as a higher lvl heretic.

[dreamy gazelle]

the thinrays suck, i thought they woule be useful in pvp at least and I havent really found a use to repesting flask

[umbral musk]

And it is a liability in pvp defense!

[dreamy gazelle]

guess its for ultima

[dreamy gazelle]

yeah looks like defense ai will be a pain now for heretic

I dont see them somehow fixing it

[lusty nimbus]

The only flask I haven't figured out a use for is Manaseep (and maybe Manaray specifically on Corvus since it has Bloodray which pairs with crit poise).

I'm happy to keep testing Manaseep until I do find a use for it but I'm not holding my breath 😆 if it were like bloodshift in that it increased something while active and functioned as a temp status though that would be more interesting to fiddle with 🤔

Alternatively mana regeneration as someone else suggested would help shore up some of Corvus's endless woes

[native karma]

Don't worry, Odie will be back in few days and tell us how to use manaseep properly

[shut temple]

it's a non-crit ultima, treat it like it, so it's a "Pre-Ultima" spell, something like Magic Strikes 3 vs Magic Strikes 4 , you won't be using it once you have MS4 xD

[umbral musk]

Those tri element spells are better.

[main granite]

Yeah, omniflask is for early t10

[worn wolf]

Has anyone tried duo raiding with flasks yet?

Im using bloodloss and its completely draining me to 0 in duos

But it never does that when im solo?

[uncut shoal]

It will wipe your mana to 0 with 1 full bottle of flasks..

Probably you should using it when available, that means giving up free turns after using bloodlosk..

[lusty nimbus]

It only empties in duos/multi-player from my testing. Seems like a bug

[astral moth]

So, today I spent some time playing with my t9 alt because I want to get it to t10 for science (to gauge the early t10 experience). Lo and behold and all of a sudden, I can now climb towers no problem! Why? Why, inflection flask and Omniflask

It's kinda' crazy

never had I been able to climb above floor 20 (and I know for sure because of achievement). With no change at all to my gear (my character had not been logged in to since way before the identity patch), I went all the way up to floor 40. Flask usage was the only difference

Does that translate to the early t10 experience? I don't know. I hope to be able to tell you soon

But it sure helps with t9 play if you spend the time getting gear

Gear in question:

So, FWIW, I can now honestly and wholeheartedly say that Omnimancer can climb towers safely if you spend the time getting gear. As you can see, it is largely non-event.

[lime leaf]

Is it repeatable?

[astral moth]

are you asking for statistical proof? Yeah, no i don't have that hahaha

Not sure why we put such an onus on people bringing good feedback, and almost no pushback on negative feedback

[lime leaf]

Just a pessimist i guess 🥲

Nothing against mague

[astral moth]

If it needs saying, yeah this is anecdoctal based on 1 day of playing. I did complete the 5 towers we have available in HoA. I was not able to defeat any titans, which was to be expected ¯_(ツ)_/¯

Another note - I unlocked Omni Ara. I wish I hadn't XD

[lime leaf]

Awww

[astral moth]

On the flip side, I now have Draco Sigil so that I can use AV2 and 3 well when I unlock them at T10 hahaha

[main granite]

I climbed to floor 50 multiple times as omnimancer last year

My gear wasn't great but I had 20-26k ward and it felt easy. Only had to skip immortals/griffins/gargoyles

I'm sure flasks make it easier, but it was completely doable before also. I grinded for some decent gear early t9 and started climbing

[rigid rose]

It’d be too forward but if heretics could tweak pvp flask AI per matchup it’d be cool. Other classes understandably would want control over their pvp AI as well.

I like mana-ray, but I’d set the AI to dodgy/dex guy < x% hp, use mana-ray

[astral moth]

I believe it, and there could be factors I am not accounting for. I don't believe I have gained any significant insight into the class, but who knows? I did see a dramatic increase in my ability to survive though

[idle tendon]

I actually never struggled on climbing all the way up towers in late T9. This is speaking before the identity patch of coarse. I actually made the mistake of going T10 before farming towers thinking it should be just as easy. Its not. I actually don't even do towers practically at all anymore because it got very difficult before the Identity patch as early t10, and i think it's slightly easier now since i carry flasks between fights. Not seriously easier but slightly

[coarse chasm]

It would be better if Manaseep allowed you to lock your mana at a specific level for a set amount of turns. Essentially, it would cancel out mana use/regen for a fix period. Probably would need a new name though.

[coarse chasm]

Mostly.... T10 (early). If you get unlucky with a high foresight enemy at level 30+ your run is likely to end. Early T10 towers is still a pain. I can get to 35 to 45 if I am lucky and I choose my battles. Too many melee enemies and it is over.

[coarse chasm]

You will want Heretic Ara for climbing in early T10.

Is there away to reset your flasks to class default if you use mana/blood flask Infusion? Specifically for Monuments and Towers?

[astral moth]

Yeah, I know. I am T11 in my main. Just revisiting t9/10 for testing

[thorn sundial]

I wish the sigil adding flask from T9 was still in T10.

[trail sphinx]

Ah, I believe it got removed for Induction flask, but it was on T10

[main granite]

Odie also implied that he thought the elemental sigil was a little too good on heretic

[coarse chasm]

Maybe so, but Heretic feels weaker than other end game classes... Especially towards the beginning of Teir 10.

[main granite]

Idk feels pretty good to me

Good at towers, hordes, possibly endless, amazing for raids

Pvp got a boost with manaray, bloodloss, sigilflask. Sigilflask and vesta spells make towers run much smoother/faster, like other classes

2h aoe plus bloodloss made hordes much better, and anguish feasible

I am excited to try heretic endless soon. 30 ALs on the class and Dara was still miles better; now I have reason to try heretic instead

[lean rampart]

For me, the Heretic used to look weak but playable. Now the Alchemist looks overcomplicated...
A feeling of limited spells, items, available flasks...
It's hard for me to judge how the Alchemist affected the T10-, but from the position of my 250-40, mainly playing PvP, dungeons and raids - why all this?
Flasks for mana loss - without a passive, it is already spent quickly, so there are two of them.
Repetition - sometimes you can use it on a raid when you run out of mana and the boss is still alive, but if you don't build for flasks, it's 1-2 casts, and if you do, then the speed and damage decreases...
Antisummon is an interesting toy, but whether two summons one-shot me or one, it doesn't make much of a difference. It's easier to one-shot the summoner...
Sigil flask - only for Ara. If you don't want to play Ara's alchemist - forget about sigils.
Protection flask - never used...
100% hit flask - sometimes use in dungeons...
Three-element spells - maybe a pretty good option for early t10, but at t11, without crit, they look pale and are essentially only needed to charge flasks, with a loss in damage and speed.

A little more subjectivity.
Corvus has an identity through crit passive.
Ara has an identity through a sigil flask.
A basic alchemist has... Ultima?

This is my subjective opinion. Surely there are and will be people who like everything. But I am sad that my Heretic became an alchemist, besides, the functionality of which either lies dead or requires a special build for itself, or is so niche in application that it would be possible to do without it...

[left coyote]

Yeah. I mentioned before that from a purely role playing pov heretic is meant to be an element welding glass cannon and I dont see how flasks fits into that theme

Most of the flasks are pretty underwhelming considering the 2h update that every class got.

[lean rampart]

Ah. And about the omniflask.
Spending time to charge the flasks in order to then spend time casting...
A dubious concept.

[ocean pike]

For an early t10 (where its aimed at) its a good tool for raids. For late t10/endgame its just annoyance, you have it in your menu while it' s useless or even cause of death when missclicked.

[main granite]

Bloodloss is very useful, if you're running out of mana when using it, put on some mana regen.

Repetition can be used on multiturn spells like ultima, divine bastion, celestial arrow to shorten their cast time (always one turn). It's an interesting option to have

Ara sigilflask is super good/versatile. This flask alone makes the class strong in towers and is usable other content.

Inflection flask can be used in endless, hordes, even raids if you need. It's a neat option

Manaray/bloodray are excellent for pvp and useful in lots of other spots. Can't miss or be blocked is a really good tool.

The trielemental spells are intended to charge flasks, but they have a high m1 of 3 and can't be resisted and deal extra to weakness (like ultima). This makes them useful in endless/anguish content

Omniflask is meant for early t10. Banishment is a niche silver bullet, idk if it was needed but it's good for earlier tiers. Manaseep could use tweaks that were suggested above

[lean rampart]

A bit more heretical muttering.

1. We have damage reduction with long casts.
2. We are a glass cannon.
   However, long casts are dangerous not only because of the damage. A chance to catch the boss's signature blow. A chance that while you are casting, the enemy will use reflect. Debuffs... In a word - low control of the battlefield.
   It would be more logical for a glass cannon to use fast casts.
   It is hard for me to imagine how it is logical to sit on these two chairs. The simplest option is to forget about p. 1. and use fast casts, let it work with 3-turn buffs.
   If we want to maximize the effect of p. 1., then it would make sense to introduce 2-turn spells (for example, as a new tier of 3-element spells with increased efficiency). Alternatively, you can reduce the casting time of Fey cataclysms from 3 to 2 or introduce 2-turn analogues (look at 2-turn 3-element spells with a critical chance...).

[worthy grove]

Question: is the banishment flask supposed to make sure all summons are removed regardless of hip points? Because when I used it there many times that the summon monsters are not banished but they just take some damage.

[feral token]

In BoF?

[worthy grove]

No, regular dungeons or raids

[feral token]

Ah, there it's supposed to deal full hp, so no idea

[worthy grove]

Sigh..I hate Turing in bug reports

[feral token]

Mentioned BoF because there they are affected by the house rules, so even if the flask deals 100% they take 50%

But yeah, outside of that it should be full, I believe

[worthy grove]

I guessed 🙂

I don’t even bother using the punishment flasks because they don’t do full damage

The current event with the summoners as bosses are quite complete with failing to remove the summons

[astral moth]

And just to check: are you using a full flask?

Even if you are not, my experience is that it still removes at least 1 summon

[worthy grove]

Yes, actually when they hit double full

[astral moth]

But just out of curiosity

[worthy grove]

Glowing red 🙂

All good

[astral moth]

Yup. That is full

[worthy grove]

I understand asking questions because that’s the only way you can make sure I’m not the full noob that I am close to being

Even after 5.5 years

[feral token]

There was this issue where it needed 50% per summon instead of the intended 25% per summon, but nothing of only dealing some damage instead of full

[worthy grove]

How I still don’t even know how to hit 5+ million per spell like some of the insane masters of this class can do

[uncut shoal]

More pinions..

[worthy grove]

Maxed to balance 100% crit and magic

[uncut shoal]

Arisen aaru hood, robe and fallen sky shoes..

Hood of Dynasty if sequencer looking for 1 turn "Gods of Aaru"

[main granite]

May I interest you in the spell "Ultima"

[worthy grove]

Using it…avg only 1m

[lean rampart]

I'm a T11 sequencer, I already use the ultima... This is a "suggestion" for early builds, for "identity" and for those who decide to play through flasks...

And an attempt to take a “step aside” from the ultima...

[worthy grove]

As for current arisen items…over 50 kills solo, highest drop, blue :(. out of EVERYTHING

[main granite]

Well omniflask is just a baby ultima for the early builds

[lean rampart]

In essence - yes.
But you must first charge the flasks and only then will it become an analogue.
Let's say, ultima is 2 turns and 100 damage.
Omniflask is, let's say, 60 for 2 turns + 20 multiplied by "y" turns.

Why use this on t11?

I understand if it was just a spell that can be removed. Some are no longer needed spells... But it will be with you for the rest of the game.

[storm viper]

If you don't feel like charging etc, then just play Hara.

Ward Flask Infusion → Snotra → Sigil Stormflask → Ara Vesta 3 (not Vestaga, unless the raid boss has minions). Add Gods of Aaru after Snotra and before Stormflask, if it's a stronger raid boss.

The process will end up allowing 3 uses of Sigil Stormflask before needing refills. Use the Aaru Robe & TMM follower; 3 cycles is all you need as long as the buffs don't drop. It's been faster than Ultima raiding, for me.

[rigid rose]

Maybe it will only deal a guaranteed killing blow at 100% flask? That would kinda make sense. I had a similar situation as the other person. Regardless, someone else said it but many times removing one summon just enables us to get one shot by the other and trying to one shot the summoner seems to be best haha.

I just read your other comment with the odie snapshot and now I’m just confused lol

[feral token]

Yeah, best strat is to go for the summoner, at least in T10

[feral token]

Yeah, it's supposed to be 100% hp of the summon

Flask charge is only for how many summons it kills, not damage itself

[main granite]

You keep on flip flopping between early builds and t11. First you talk about "we need 2-turn spells" so I say "ultima". You respond saying "this is a suggestion for early builds" so I say "omniflask". Now you're back to talking about "why use it in t11"

Omniflask is for early builds, it is not meant to replace ultima. The 40% reduction on Efficacious is just bonus survivability

[lean rampart]

It's not my fault that we were given a bunch of weird and sometimes contradictory stuff. I'm just trying to make sense of it.
Two-move spells for better implementation of damage reduction.
Too much time for omniflask is another problem.
In the first case, we get an improvement for any level, in the second we have dead weight for t11.

[main granite]

Yeah that's because the update was not meant for t11 only

Omniflask was very intentionally meant for early t10

And t9 actually

[lean rampart]

But it applies to all levels of the game.

[main granite]

The only way in which this matters is for AI PVP

Which is a fair complaint, I don't want my bot using omniflask either

[lean rampart]

you can't remove the omniflask from the panel, you always have it. Why if it's not for t11?

[main granite]

Because that's how it was coded. Odie has stated a few times that flasks are considered our key passive ability, and "other classes don't get to customize their passives"

But we can ask for something to be done about omniflask in nonline pvp for sure

[lean rampart]

If the mechanics don't work for everyone, it's a crutch.

[main granite]

I assume you mean that it's something that hurts us

[lean rampart]

this is something that is not needed on t11 (in current realities). but it is there.
I am trying to somehow figure out how this could be optimized, but so far it is not working out...

[main granite]

It being there is not the problem

The problem is the bot choosing to use it for whatever reason

We complain to odie and let him figure out how he wants to fix it

[lean rampart]

from my point of view, now we have a number of restrictions.
1 - special spells for flasks.
2 - special items for flasks.
3 - special flasks for classes.
4 - passive for limited spell options.
For 1 and 2 - I proposed a bonus to charging flasks from the cost of the spell, due to the reduction of bonuses on items.
For 4 - two-move spells.
Theoretically, we will get less dependence on items with a higher speed of charging flask without using them. Several new things in synergy with flasks already now. More popular passive. The release of the build in T11 due to quick cast.
"Identity" for the standard alchemist.

[main granite]

We have gained nothing but extra options, why are you calling them restrictions

[left coyote]

We've got extra options but they aren't particularly useful. Manaseep, banishment, even inflection opens up the glass cannon to a full hit of damage from a horde, sigils only available on one class,

For me the flaks have just meant that at the beginning of a dungeon i can lower my mana quickly. Doesn't seem much of an identity.

Ive been experimenting with D'ara and im getting tmag 1,2 and 3, any hits i take charge my passive, i then use my passive to cast a quick DC, when this is cast is actually gives me a permanent buff.

That synergy is incredible

Everytime im getting a full Apex ive got a one turn dc

[lean rampart]

Because if I don't use special spells and items, the speed of charging flasks makes them too expensive a resource. 6 ara vesta 4 for 1 flask...
Because vesta + sigils only work on Ara.
Yes, for t10 and below the situation is different.. But the game does not end at t10.
Yes, you can assemble a build for flasks on t11. But I see a drop in efficiency when I try to do this.
Yes, my opinion is subjective. Because I'm talking about what I see myself. On my t11. I am, damn it, a stubborn heretic who only plays a heretic sequencer. And I don't see much benefit from all this for myself.
I'm trying my best to figure out how to make it work even on me. I'm trying to adjust my ideas so that they are suitable for the maximum number of builds. I've almost come to terms with the fact that I'm not a mage anymore, but an alchemist.
But, damn it, I'm trying...
But for now, the answer is - this is for low levels, then there will be new things, this is not balance but identity...
Identity that made mages alchemists.
That gave high levels tools for beginners.
Forcing us to wait for the next changes that... what?

I think I'll finish for today. I'm starting react too close to my heart...

[astral moth]

It would be a good idea to check whether some of these arguments are in good faith before continuing to engage.
Moving goalposts should be a red flag that the person moving them is mostly interested in "winning". It is not productive.

[storm viper]

Yeah, this is the important bit that I was hoping for with Heretic.

For whatever it's worth, Channelalus is supposed to be nerfed to require 2 turns but I guess that's not going to happen until the balance update. Still hard to compare with auto T. Mag buffs, though...

[lusty nimbus]

For the people who enjoy D.Ara more though, why not play D.Ara?? It's a great class in pretty much everything that isn't PvP and still fine there, just weaker than the other two Deities 🤔 Genuine question. I enjoy Heretic's current iteration significantly more than D.Ara and that's why I'm playing it instead of Deity. Yeah, I think Deity does some stuff easier but I don't have nearly as much fun doing it

[storm viper]

I'm...fine with Heretic. Would I like more for it? Yes. But I can do things now that I couldn't do before as my preferred class (the "pure" mage).

I have only used Dara for Endless since the update because I could always raid as Heretic and now I can do towers and dungeons (with Anguish) as Heretic too.

In any case, the situation as a whole is a little more...idk, complicated, as far as our update is concerned. It's not just what other classes have but the handling of the situation, overall. Don't really want to get into that though; Flasks aren't going anywhere at this point.

[finite talon]

putting this up again so it's not so buried when Odie comes back from vacation.

it really is concerning. AI choosing flask skill immediately upon a full fill does nothing for us and actually hurts us.
Here my AI missed and I was protected. Since it tried twice with magic chakram, the flask was full and omniflask was chosen. Again, just awful.

[umbral musk]

just to add, omniflask is nerfed for pvp compared to pve. It is really weak in pvp with 1 flask and should not be used over better spells

[left coyote]

@lusty nimbus I don't enjoy D'ara more, I have no wish to HOC. I'm just pointing out that it is a SIGNIFICANTLY better wizard than the wizard class. And the class as a whole works much better.

T mag up 1 2 and 3 plus a normal buff? Plus a hard hitting apex.

Whereas heretic just had bloodloss which isn't even a permanent buff

And it has to be charged using certain skills only

Plus 615 more dex

And more mana

[astral moth]

https://tenor.com/view/stop-already-dead-kristen-msm-jokes-over-burger-gif-15769364

Beating a dead horse at this point.

From pretty early on it was established that Deity is currently a problematic class, and that the objective was not to raise Heretic's power level

[worn wolf]

Feels like we're straying into balance discussion rather than identity. Likely problems with Identity are going to have to be relooked at after the balance patch, and trying to argue either way prior seems unproductive...

[umbral musk]

On the contrary, I think its important to bring up feedback if they feel the identity didnt meet their expectation, or otherwise

[main granite]

The identity is not tied to balance/performance. It's tied to the class feeling unique, having niches it can fulfill, being able to take part in content with its own fresh take

As far as I understand it at least. And of course our signature mechanic, which was chosen to be flasks

I think the identity patch was successful; flasks are a neat remix on an Apex-style ability. We identified some gaps with the class as a whole, got a ton of new tools to help with those gaps, and have a cohesive idea of what the class is intended to do: use elemental/vesta/corvus spells to charge situational abilities for different pieces of content.

Improvements could be made to the flavor/lore side of things (we're almost an alchemist line with the theme of flasks, but we still use magic to fuel this? Elemental magic gets bottled up?), and the balance side will need some time to figure out

[unreal flume]

This is what I've seen the most 🤣🤣 using Apex to explain flasks, with that we see identity failing

Flasks are bad, I'm just playing Heretic and trying to make it work because of my stubbornness and so that the time I've already invested isn't wasted.

Flask seems like a copy and paste of what worked, but when they put it in Herege it became like a bunch of patches for problems that I would prefer didn't exist.

For beginner and intermediate classes it seems good, but they are naturally easier to deal with because there are many restrictions on them.

But Heretic, it's a T10 AND T11 class... The flasks aren't good here and they don't bring a flavor that makes me want to recommend the class.

I'm hoping that in the same way they're testing changes in Deity, Gilga and RS in the beta, they'll do it in Herege in a year's time, that's the shred of hope I'm holding on to.

The things I appreciated most during that period of rework:

1. Change of sigils and vesta

• Variation in Ara and Corvus stats
• Bloodloss
• Heretic Corvus receives the Magic Weapons skills
• Omni Ara receiving sigils and Vesta
• tri-elemental (although I think it could be better)

Ah, I need to add that I liked that the NF finally touched on immunities and elemental resistances, after I saw the Heretic's passive I started dreaming of a perfect Orna where to have immunity you need to build resistance until it reaches 100% and give up some things

[main granite]

Calling flasks a copy/paste of apex is dishonest IMO. They are similar in the sense that they have meters that charge, but they're so different in everything else...

And saying "flasks are bad" just sounds like "I haven't really tested much but I don't like it"

I was skeptical at first but several of the flasks are very impactful in many types of content. It would be much smarter to make suggestions on how to improve them instead of just dismissing them

[dreamy gazelle]

Would you name any of that usefulness of the flasks?

[unreal flume]

I've been testing it since the beginning, and I say since I tested it in beta, and in live, the identity is bad.

[dreamy gazelle]

I've been raiding with ara and the only flask I use is sigil flask and bloodloss. Repetition flask is pointless since you cant apply sigils and repeat the ara skill before you used those sigils, defense flask is prettuly much pointless on a glasscannon build, mana ray is just weak af, mana seep is hard to manage. tbh I dont know how wr're supposed to fully take advantage of bluelining when skills costs above 300 mana, we will never be able to hit with a 100% bluelining bonus, unlike redlining classes.

and even managing mana, and temp buffs is a pain, there are so many turns wasted into mana pots

and filling flasks too

Maybe high al ppl dont have that problem because they can just nuke with low buffs, but at al 17 you gotta manage 3 things at rhe same time to get max damage

Also the lack of scrolls at t10 needs to be addressed if we want manaflask to be more useful

[finite talon]

would be cool if all the flasks would be useful across the mage journey.
with 166 ALs, I'm only using mana ray on beos that block too much and slipper immortal lords and such and sometimes bloodloss. Repetition Flask could be good for high hp raids but I rarely use ultima. I'm strictly base Heretic.
other classes have passives that are great from the start until forever.
we get some useful tools throughout the journey and then become bloated screen prompts.

Efficacious is quite nice

and mana ray is only good up to about floor 350 endless

[main granite]

Read the thread lol

I will say - Odie has previously said the reason for not letting us customize the flasks in pvp was that "other classes don't get to customize their passives". Well, Deity can remove Apex spells from their spell loadouts for nonlive pvp; we should 100% be able to remove certain flasks from our loadout also

I don't need to mix and match flasks between the 3 heretics, but I want to be able to disable some of the flasks for each of my loadouts.

-Manaseep is kinda useless atm. One suggestion is that it should stop seeping mana at around 10 or 15% mana, only seeping mana again when above that threshold. It could stay on permanently or it could be a temporary buff. Alternatively, it could provide some additional buff like extra accuracy or mag to make it worth using instead of bloodloss.

-Flask loadout for pvp needs to be somewhat customizable. Pvp AI bots often use flasks as soon as one is charged even when it's a terrible option. Tubbbug posted a few screenshots about this. I would suggest allowing us to disable some flasks in our loadouts; this is similar to Deity removing Apex spells from their spell loadouts.

For Odie

[dreamy gazelle]

I was asking from your perspective not the 1k+ messages on this thread

[main granite]

Yeah I have lots of messages in this thread about it, some from less than 24 hours ago

[dreamy gazelle]

Ok I found it, ty

[main granite]

But I am also just one heretic. Of course others may feel different, I just hope people are giving it a fair shot instead of forming opinions on their first impressions

[lusty nimbus]

-Repetition Flask: useful in all kinds of situations where you run out of mana or want to instacast the prior multiturn move to make sure it connects again. Used in all kinds of content as needed

-Mana-ray: Useful for hitting dodgy targets, does decent penetration and damage especially if you're buffed up and/or low mana. Used in endless, pvp, hordes, towers

-Inflection Flask: used to stall opponents, Buff self on Corvus or prior to channeling a multi-turn move to pair with efficacious, used in pvp, live pvp, raids, hordes, endless

-Sigilstorm Flask: used on Ara to demolish live PvP, raid, quickclear towerfloors, just be a general nuke in pretty much all content

-Omniflask: used to bridge gap in power of early t10s as well as a non-crit finisher in certain situations for builds that can't build crit

-Banishment flask: thematic as heck with dismissing summons, used during Riftfall and against summon raids and opponents as needed. A silver bullet

-Bloodray: bread and butter of Corvus endless to have a critting no miss to deal with dodgy opponents or to nuke someone in PvP if you can get it charged

-Bloodloss: Turns on iconoclast and gives a free turn, used pretty much anywhere you need to

For a general summary of flasks and content where they can be used/are used. Please feel free to add any I've forgotten. (I left off manaseep because I haven't personally found a use for it yet but it sounds like higher 100+ AL players might have)

[finite talon]

i only have one use for flasks in PVP.

that's Mana ray for the situation when someone got second chance and hasn't Divine bastion thier 500k ward.

there may be uses for flasks in BoF. idk, not my cup of tea realm.

this identity hasn't helped heretic in PVP and has been hurting us from lazy AI writing

[dim sluice]

Lol. What am I reading? As always I’m late. 😩

[main granite]

Agreed tubbbug - and yes, in bof a few flasks can shine. Bloodloss and sigilflask are both great in bof

[lusty nimbus]

Sigilstorm into an AV4 should gobble that 500k ward up too

Bloodloss for extra damage beforehand as well

For non BoF uses

[dim sluice]

166 ALs. Jeez

[main granite]

Heretic nonlive pvp is hindered by AI flask usage; but flasks are useful in a variety of pvp fights otherwise

[finite talon]

yeah been busy grinding. Love to grind. Just sad that someone with only 20 ALs can demolish me

[lusty nimbus]

Also I'm still working on it but I zero'd an 80+ AL BeoH Verse4 yesterday in Arena by stringing together Inflection Flask, Efficacious and Deific Channel

Was zero'd through turn 10

[dim sluice]

Heretic is ok. People that say otherwise still haven’t figured it out

[lean rampart]

Heretic is ok. Alchemist no ok. 😒

[worthy grove]

Heretic is fine…just need to relearn a little with all the changes

[dim sluice]

Alchemist? Which class is that? 🤨

[main granite]

The flask class

[worthy grove]

Specialized

[main granite]

Herelchemist

[dim sluice]

There is no alchemist class. That’s another empty complaint. It’s called flasks. People need to get over that. So much noise about a name.

[main granite]

Alcheretic

[dreamy gazelle]

it's a joke bruv

[worthy grove]

Banishment flask is not working as intended: numerous times I did not remove the summons only did damage. And yes had full glowing flask when I used

[lean rampart]

Nop... 😒

[dim sluice]

Lol. I know it’s not

[main granite]

Give us some video evidence

[dreamy gazelle]

everyone knows it's not a class, hence a joke

it's just a way for people to say they liked heretic as it was

[dim sluice]

No. It’s not.

It’s a way of saying they don’t like the flavor

[dreamy gazelle]

welp I won't go deeper into that topic

I like throwing molotov cocktails

[main granite]

Tbf this was an "identity" patch and we muddied the waters a bit with flasks. It's fair to point out that flasks aren't exactly on par with the Omnimancy flavor

[dreamy gazelle]

I just wish some were more useful

[dim sluice]

I like em

They each got their use.

And they’re good when you need em

[main granite]

I am fine with flasks, hopefully we reconcile the flavor a little in the future

[dreamy gazelle]

the only issue with that identity is that they got heavily inspired by deities apex bar

just changed horizontal bar for cut off vertical bars

[main granite]

And made two types of bar

And made different spells for each type

[dreamy gazelle]

I think there's a lot of space for improvement in the addition of scroll offhands

that would not just fill flasks faster

[main granite]

And made them charge differently than apex

And made the spells way different/broader

[dreamy gazelle]

excuse my ignorance, but how do they charge separately?

[main granite]

And made each tier have different spells/flasks

[dreamy gazelle]

afaik you just do 3 elemental spells and they both fill

[dim sluice]

But why is that bad?

I don’t get it. What we looking for?

[shut temple]

lol still complaining about the name xD

[dreamy gazelle]

but are they as good? channelanus still rekts way more that any new flask spells

[shut temple]

this thread gets stable for 4-5 days , everyone is "it's fine" and then "THIS IS BAD" for 1-2 days rise and repeat

[dreamy gazelle]

wait it's not channelalus, someone lied to me :v

what's the deity spell that doesn tons of dmg and give extra turn?

[main granite]

That doesn't exist

[dreamy gazelle]

how do deities get an extra turn?

[main granite]

Channelalus can give an extra turn with dursa I think

[dreamy gazelle]

I was on the recieving end of that skill

ohh then it was channelalus lol

[main granite]

That's not a channelalus thing. That 's a dursa thing

When dursa uses an apex skill, they can gain an extra turn

So you may have been hit by a damaging Apex skill

[dim sluice]

Lol. That’s when the name is funny

[main granite]

Heretic definitely does not work super well in pvp which is a shame. We got a little better but still have a lot of issues

[worthy grove]

Unfortunately I don’t have any otherwise I’d have done the bug report. But then again I just found out today that it was a bug not “working as intended “

[dreamy gazelle]

I've liked ara in pvp for now, but I haven't found much use to the other flasks. I usually go trielemental spell, sigil and AV3

it's a nice, 2 turn nuke (cuz the turn skip from sigils)

[worthy grove]

I am doing fine with Hcor and assassin and chakram

Probably 80% win rate

He usually lose when they have 80+ Ascension levels.

Or they have that damn mneumonic that does 20% of the time no damage and when you hit 95% damage

Argh. Won’t let me edit the message.

[dim sluice]

Yeah. Mana ray is good for PvP. Blood ray too. Blood loss too. Even repetition can come in clutch

That’s just PvP

I saw someone earlier mention mana ray on raids? Like…yeah. That’s not what it’s used for

[dreamy gazelle]

I got forced to use it cuz of the confusion pumpkinless does

[dim sluice]

They’re really good if used as intended.

[dreamy gazelle]

pvp defense is no the only place where the use of flasks is favoured, confused status also tends to consume flasks

[dim sluice]

Got ya

[dreamy gazelle]

before anything else

[dim sluice]

Yeah. AI does need help.

I’ve been saying it since day one. Pretty sure Odie is gonna work on that

But yeah. I think we’re looking good for the balance patch. Which hopefully they hurry up. This ss3 meta is getting out of hand. Again…

[main granite]

Almost every class has ways of nuking on turn 1 and Heretic's "best" way gets countered by an amity effect :/

But that's not what the identity patch is about, gotta wait for balance patch ig

[unreal flume]

We're taking the "per turns" thing seriously, and letting those who are unhappy and those who are happy give their feedback separately

[crisp trout]

I dislike the argument of "other classes don't get to customize their passives" when our identity patch is completely different than every other class and we're being held back in a sense because of it. Glass cannon, but worried we're going to be OP and hit too hard so other classes can still hit harder than us turn 1 without being built like a glass cannon lol. It's also referred to as a tool belt to help us in unique situations. I can tell you my toolbelt is going to have things that are useful to me at the time, not loaded with things that are irrelevant for the job. Having choices to swap out different flasks should go without saying imo. Efficacious would be our main identity if we're in comparison to what other classes got and its a bit lackluster. Seeing the % upped a little would be nice. Maybe adding in bonus damage against resisted spells rather than just immune as well.

Not a gripe at you, I've just seen that given as reasoning so many times and then we're told at the same time to not compare to other classes lol. If we're not to compare to other classes then our identity shouldn't be compared either since it's so different and not innate

[main granite]

Yeah I feel mostly the same. I've been asking for the ability to disable flasks from the start

As for mix and matching, I think it's good to have some unique flasks as a draw for the different classes, but I'd rather most of the flasks be universal

Something like 2 unique flasks per class

I had also suggested efficacious including 65% on resisted spells, especially if it was for base Heretic as the best Elementalist class

[forest burrow]

What if efficacious gave a boost to all elemental damage, would play into heretic's identity as an elementalist and give it a natural advantage on using mage spells. Would likely have to exclude Ultima and find a number that would be worthwhile without being OP. 10% maybe?

[unreal flume]

We currently have some spells that can only be equipped when we have an specific item in the equivalent loadout, the flasks could use the same system, we have 6 slots and we can choose between universal flasks, but we will have exclusive flasks that only appear when class X is equipped (the Sigil Stormflask would only be available to equip when it was with HAra)

It wouldn't be completely unprecedented because skills linked to passives and items already exist in the game.

[unreal flume]

I mentioned at another time that we could have the Efficacious passive linked to the flasks, the more flasks are full the more damage would be dealt when hitting immune and resistant enemies, it would be a dream.

[umbral musk]

Thats a really nice idea

[unreal flume]

10% or 20% for each completely full flask, doesn't seem like much Op, but even if it was NF can think of better numbers

[forest burrow]

Hmmm, 50% seems likely OP when I'm often running around dungeons and towers with completely full flasks without aiming for it. Maybe something like 10% at 3 full flasks and another 5% at 4 and 5.

[unreal flume]

Rescuing this old message #1331673547210358794 message

[unreal flume]

Elemental immunity in its current state is a problem not only for the Heretic, it is a problem for all sides of the game, it prevents much more interesting interactions and creates spells like Ultima

It would be a good start to remove complete immunity

[forest burrow]

Ahh I gotcha, talking about against immune and resistant enemies, I was talking about a flat damage boost to elemental so Efficacious made elemental damage more effective in all scenarios.

[unreal flume]

I don't Op, but that's probably not the popular opinion, especially considering how the other classes are supported by their own immunities.

[unreal flume]

Ahhhh, I get it, I thought we were on the same page

[forest burrow]

I do really like the idea of carrying around full flasks providing a small boost since the skills don't always have a use.

[main granite]

I will admit it's kinda dumb that Physical as an "element" is basically never resisted

And yet elemental resistances are everywhere, and we are meant to be using elemental spells instead of elementless

[unreal flume]

The studio would have hit the nail on the head by making Efficacious the identity, and then putting the vials as a passive supporting it... It would have looked much more like an Omnimancy tree

As mages, now not all magic carries the flask, this in itself is very limiting in the skill choices, especially for intermediate levels where elementless skills are used to invade

[main granite]

Maybe then a start to the solution is to make all spells charge flasks a bit. There's no inherent lore as to why only elemental spells charge flasks, there's a variety of charging rates from existing spells, and we see elementless Ara and Corvus spells able to charge flasks anyway.

All spells charge our flasks; but elementals and exploiting elemental weaknesses charge more

Idk how much ara/corvus spells currently charge, but perhaps they should charge more when used by the respective class. That can be achieved through the signature class abilities: the Ara ability would cause ara spells to charge more than elementless, the Flasks of Corvus ability would cause Corvus spells to do the same.

[unreal flume]

I haven't retested it recently, but as far as I remember, the ones we learned from Ara and Corvus give a boost equal to single-element spells, but they don't have weaknesses to physical/non-elemental to increase how much they charge.

[native karma]

Agree, flasks is medium in power but fail hard as an identity concept for me. People still try to agrue there's different with apex but the main mechanic is the fucking same: you charge smth and spend that to use some unique spells that only ur class have access to

All the differents, are those the main of the mechanic? No. So you can't use them to tell Flasks is different, they just try to add some thing to make them not obvious copy (like when we copy our friend home work, lol)

[tawny aurora]

oh how i miss WE

[native karma]

Idk if WE is better in power (tbh, i barely use it) but it feel more like a mage identity than flasks, atleast it's elemental related. Even efficacious feel more like a mage identity than flasks but here we are with flask as mage identity

[main granite]

Is Batman the same as Superman because they're both superheroes and fight crime?

Superman has big flashy powers (Apex skills) but Batman has hundreds of gadgets tailored for every scenario (Flasks)

"But they both fly and wear a cape so it's just a copy/paste" is kind of your argument

The feel is different. It may be that Deity is way stronger than Heretic still, but the identity is not the same IMO

[native karma]

It's just your opinion, and the compare is just not the same, lol. One is the main mechanic and the other is 2 abilities of tons of things they can do
Idc if deity is stronger than heretic, i'm just saying they're pretty much the same - yeah, also just my opinion but i think there're many people agree with that

[main granite]

Yeah fair enough

I don't have 50 ALs on Deity or Heretic either so

I may have a more open mind/fresher view on the class. I played mage for the vast majority of my time in Orna

[shut temple]

Just give Ara x1.3 mag UvUr

[coarse chasm]

Better to aim for Ara... It raids better, does far more damage quicker, synergizes better with other builds archetypes (crit focused) which probably will more smoothly into late T10 to T11.

[coarse chasm]

Really omniflask isn't even that good for early tier 10. Its damage is on par with other non flask options. It is expensive to use, and the inability to crit holds it back from being worth building around.

[storm sigil]

I do understand everyone frustration, but if i have to change my gears and spell lists again, im quiting "magic" in orna 😂 😂 😂

[coarse chasm]

I am less frustrated now than before. Ara feels like what I hoped the mage patch would bring to heretic.

Heretic base class still feels weak at my current level.

I do not understand why the base heretic couldn't have the aligned sigil flask. It would be solid and useful.

[lean rampart]

Earlier I already told about adding bonus to flasks charge from spell costs..

[minor spade]

You can already turn 1 fully fill a flask. No need to make that even easier

[coarse chasm]

It would be nice if we could get a flask that helps with accuracy a bit. Perhaps something modeled off inflection flask only for a t dex++?

[shut temple]

life siphon makes heretic desirable at least to me, an ashen pinion takes that "advantage" but it's fine,

I haven't found a desirable role for Corvus other than endless to me,

Ara is just my raiding goat, and Heretic is my hordes because of cursed and life siphon etc.etc.

[lusty nimbus]

I'm running Ara for towers and PvP, Corvus for raids and Endless, base for Anguish hordes

[mossy gust]

What build are you guys finding success with on Ara for raiding?

[vestal garnet]

I actually think they are very similar in how they work. Its a charge bar that you consume for different purposes depending on which class

Backend almost the same

But i don't disagree with the impact you mention. They are useful for sure with room for improvement

[dreamy gazelle]

with scrolls?

[vestal garnet]

I can see why people have trouble accepting flasks when compared to apex though, which is part of a class that is currently overtuned in certain content

[main granite]

Yeah I just don't know why it would matter if the coding/implementation is similar. What actually matters is how it plays out

[vestal garnet]

Identity could have been more unique

[dreamy gazelle]

buff, spend 10 turns filling 2-3 flasks, DC and sigil+aravestaga, bonus for hoping your buffs dont run out in 2 turns even though you have a 40% duration amity

[vestal garnet]

Im on the flasks are cool train fwiw

[main granite]

Does the gameplay actually feel less unique or are you just focusing on the implementation

[vestal garnet]

Apex is silly

[vestal garnet]

#1343998744961745050 message

If these had been released in the opposite order, apex would look like crap

Just my take

[main granite]

I see that you enjoy flasks, but I'm trying to figure out if the uniqueness "complaint" is valid

A lot of people talk about it being similar implementation but does that matter

[vestal garnet]

You charge a bar and use it.
Charges differently and is used for different abilities. That's the similarities and differences summed up.
One could argue avidity and CD are somewhat similar too. Extra turn vs extra enemy hit.
Just advocating for those who feel the lack of uniqueness. I dont think it's a problem, it's just not my cup of tea

More pointing out that maybe it's ok that it didn't meet everyone's expectations. I think flasks were good but i can see why others are annoyed

Heretic been underwhelming for a long time compared to other classes

Still kind of is

[dreamy gazelle]

that's what sucks tbh, deities and RS got an awesome identity patch

heretics doesnt feel that good, the mechanic is a good path but the flask abilities we got are underwhelming

[vestal garnet]

Ill disagree and say heretic identity is actually the cooler version of apex. Just because apex is strong doesnt necessarily make it an awesome identity

All opinions ofc

[dreamy gazelle]

I agree that the mechanic is nice I really like the idea, I just dont like the flask abilities that much

I only like sigil and bloodloss

maaaybe the rays for pvp, but the damage ive been putting out with it is too low for pvp

[vestal garnet]

Tbf deities only really use channelalus lmfao

So not much difference there

Grass aint greener deity is just overtuned

@unreal flume list all of the truly usable deity apex abilities. Im exaggerating but the list isnt much longer than flasks

Not all abilities are going to get used. Theres hundreds throughout the game in general that just gather dust

[storm viper]

Heretic Ara + Oracle with max crit, Dynasty Hood, Arisen Aaru Robe, Beastfelled Shoes, and The Mightiest Mimic follower.

Turn 1: Ward Flask Infusion (TMM gives Mimic's Mischief)
Turn 2: Gait of Snotra (TMM gives Great Meditation)
Turn 3: Gods of Aaru (optional) (TMM gives WoO)
Turn 4.1: Sigil Stormflask
Turn 4.2: Ara Vesta 3 (hits harder), gain a 3rd flask

Repeat 4.1 until the boss is dead. If they don't die within 3 "cycles" then refill with Tri-elemental spells/Ward Flask Infusion or simply finish them off with AV3 if Aquila is still on them. Stronger raid bosses might require more buffing and/or skipping Snotra.

[unreal flume]

Yep I just disagree with the "only"

But the most useless ones are those 2000 somethings (I don't even know the name)

[dreamy gazelle]

1000 years of pain

[vestal garnet]

In general im not a fan of charging up a bar to use an ability -in place- of using a different ability

[dreamy gazelle]

https://tenor.com/view/naruto-kakashi-thousand-years-of-pain-anime-gif-17515035

[vestal garnet]

Like you're taking a turn to distract yourself from the task at hand

[unreal flume]

Passives should be passive, simply happening without depending on a player action, just like Efficacious which could very well be the identity

[vestal garnet]

Right to each their own for sure but I feel the same way. I want the passive to influence something in battle but i dont want to look through a list of alternate abilities on a different charge bar. Personal preference. I know plenty of people who enjoy that play style though and thats fine. Just dont think it was necessary for 2 classes to have that

[dreamy gazelle]

I would rather have a 0 mana consumption spell so I can take advantage of the bluelining fully

[storm viper]

Technically, that would be all of the flasks

[dreamy gazelle]

but there's only like 2-3 damage flasks

[storm viper]

Just with the small requirement of having any of them filled...

Hey, you only said zero Mana cost 😅

[dreamy gazelle]

I just find it sucky that I cant take full advantage of the bluelining passive, coming from someone who just switched from a redlinign class xd

[storm viper]

Repetition also, but you need to actually cast the desired spell first

[dreamy gazelle]

I guess you can also do offhand abilities too xd

[mossy gust]

What's that offhand there? I don't recognize it

[dreamy gazelle]

anguished raid offhand for mages

[cyan geyser]

No it's a drop by odie

[storm viper]

Arisen Cursed Esus Pillar reskin (Ogma from the Odie raid), it gives +20% buff duration and helps keep DC up a little longer @mossy gust

[cyan geyser]

Ogma i believe

[dreamy gazelle]

ohhhh

[lean rampart]

Of course, these are just dreams and fantasies, but I think "copying" the summoner mechanics would be more in line with the identity of mages than flasks as they are now.
Several slots for autocast spells that you choose for your own needs, in my opinion, would also close many gaps nicely.

Additional mana loss. Control in the endless with darts. Autobuffs. Autoward. Autosigil...
Put a combat spell and control the fight with your hands or vice versa.
+1 turn to spells "for balance", etc., etc.

😩

Dreams...

By the way.
Today I noticed that Vesta 4 charged the flask when I missed.
I don't know how long this has been working, but it's a nice plus.

[unreal flume]

From the beginning I imagine, I remember it happening since the public beta at least

[storm viper]

I really would've liked something like Paired Essence but for sigils because they still aren't practical to use beyond Sigil Stormflask.

[main granite]

Yes, all charging still happens even on a miss

[uncut shoal]

2000 is a tricky one to build..
Below average, maybe..
Useless, no..

[unreal flume]

There is a "most" in my message, because among all Apex skills, 2000... is the most useless 😂 your message just proves my point

If you compare her to nothing, there would be no discussion

[uncut shoal]

But I'm not straightly wrote that 2000 apex is useless..
Blades can be improved with elemental, seals with multi cast..
Both apex will greatly improve on hybrid builds..
Getting apex charging fast is easy "if" quad edge and osmostrike or drain in skills or spells slot..

[unreal flume]

Apparently you didn't understand any of the messages I sent about 2000, and I didn't think of a good way to rephrase it to make it clearer, so I won't insist

[uncut shoal]

No problem, since I got little bit uncomfortable with uh meta build, complaint and my bad english..
No offence, that just my personality..

[coarse chasm]

Ashen Pinion? Do you mean Ashen Ruby?

How much further are you getting in endless with Corvus?

[shut temple]

Yes sorry ruby

I haven't done endless in 5 months but if i had to pick a class for endless it will be corvus

[astral moth]

Useless is an absolute. Kaiye is right. If it sees any use whatsoever, even by 1 person, it is thus not useless.
Using hyperbole is silly. Don't be silly.

Before you come back with your "but I wrote 'most'!!" argument, that is called an oxymoron. Things are useless or they are not. There is no most or least.

[lime leaf]

Is this amount of discontent normal after a rework? It’s my first one xd
Curious about stats out of game that’s devs look at for balance purposes as well

[astral moth]

Honestly not sure. I think so? There usually will be people who are unhappy with things, and some who aren't.
Us here are such tini-tiny fraction of the overall player base that it is dubious how much either of our opinions represent the rest of the people who play the class.

It's a bit of an echo chamber for both sides

[lime leaf]

Fair enough, i see the same faces too, which is why im also curious about how the devs see it based on stats in the game

[astral moth]

My 2c - the people who are most motivated to keep this thread going are those who want to see changes. It is natural that the conversation is going to trend towards what people want to see changed IMHO

[dreamy gazelle]

Is it normal that ara vestaga does 1 dmg to summons in pvp but not in other content? (like raids summons)

[lime leaf]

Like the first few turns

?

[dreamy gazelle]

well third turn to be exact, I do a tri element spell to fill flasks, then sigil flask then ara vestaga

it was on normal pvp, not bof

it did full dmg to the player but only 1 to summons

[storm viper]

There are some weird calculations going on with Vestaga and sigils, but treat the 1s the same as being zero'd out; You'll have to use AV3 instead.

[dreamy gazelle]

I use vestaga cuz it usually hits more targets than av3 xd

I usually save av3 for everyone that is not summoner and vestaga for summoners

[storm viper]

Well, no worries as long as the summoner is dead in that case haha

[native karma]

Only when the rework fail

[astral moth]

it could be, in theory, that their mag is just enough so that the skill deals 1 damage.
In practice, I do think it is probably a bug.

1 damage is suspect, is why I say that

0 would be explainable, but 1 feels too purposeful to be a coincidence

so @dreamy gazelle , I would go and report it as a bug to be safe (how's it going BTW? How's Orna treating you?)

[lusty nimbus]

Yes and no, people were pretty active/irritated with the Deity rework in the middle of it. Some still don't like Apex as an identity passive but everyone learned how to work around it/found uses for Channelalus, Barrialus, Neutralalus, the elemental AoEs, etc.

The class is a monster but it wasn't what everyone was looking for or expected and took some time to break in.

When Avidity was added to Realmshifters, people thought it was neat but not very good and the additions of gear and such changed that.

To an extent, same with Collateral Damage.

I don't remember seeing or hearing much about Bestial Bonds.

Flasks aren't what most people expected and they seem to not be what a few want or like at all.

Do I think the Heretic patch has been a little more negative? Yeah, but other than Heretic, I also really only followed the Deity rework closely and people largely came around to that one, it just took a while

[main granite]

People complaining is the most normal thing possible

[astral moth]

Heh, that's a good point. It would feel super strange if this thread was even mostly positive things

[lusty nimbus]

Yep. In the same way that I find the passives/class significantly more interesting than Deity and have had more fun in Orna lately than in a long while, others compare to the raw dex, stats, or defenses of Deity and other classes and don't like it. And they're allowed to have their opinions too.

Though since plenty of people also seem to enjoy it I will say that calling it an utter failure feels disingenous

I think pointing out the Vestaga PvP bug (I also assume it is a bug), possible Banishment flask bugs, and the AI favoring Omniflask heavily are all good things to note in the feedback though

[astral moth]

I might just be saying the same thing with different words. I think it's super valid to say you don't like it. Even the complains about the flavor are worth sharing. I personally get peeved by the absolutist claims we tend to throw around.

[main granite]

Yeah the complaints can be valid. There's still more changes I want too

[astral moth]

But oh well, it is the internet

[lusty nimbus]

"The whole identity is a terrible design" is overdoing it. It's okay to not like something or wish it were different but that isn't the same as a terrible design

I also have a couple things I wouldn't mind tweaks/bugfixes for but they aren't completely ruining everything for me in the meantime

[umbral musk]

I will do a write up on the identity but in general, the identity is in the right direction, but it also feel incomplete, insufficient and cant seem to 'scratch the itch'

Some of the flasks could be made more useful for both new and high lvl heretics (i.e. omniflask, mana seep)

[unreal flume]

I'm not trying to be rude, although I realize my previous post may have come across that way, that wasn't the intention.

The discussion started when it was said that only Channelalus was being used. I disagreed with that and mentioned that all Apex abilities have their value. Even if I had to rank them by use, for me 2000 would be last, but it still wouldn't be useless. As the guy pointed out, I used hyperbole and oxymorons to express this. I didn't follow the discussion because from my perspective, you and I were on the same side

As English is not my native language, sometimes when switching from Portuguese to English I fail to express the right tone for the conversation.

[unreal flume]

I don't know how it works for you, but I'm not so attached to questions like "the truth behind what is or isn't useless", and for me, it's not that absolute, that's why I use hyperboles and oxymorons, I'm not going to limit what I'm going to do just because you think it's "silly", anyway, it's not something I want to discuss, especially here.

[unreal flume]

Remember that this server doesn't only have fluent English speakers, people bring customs from their own language in the same way that they also bring customs from English to their native language. The exchange exists whether you like it or not.

[astral moth]

Just try not to use them to tell someone that they are wrong, then you are fine in my book (not that you need to care)

It is not a language thing. It is a respect thing. We can all express our opinions and respect them. If you are going to dish out proverbial punches arguing with someone, you gotta' be willing to take them too

Have no opinion on language customs. I am not even a native english speaker 😂 . I am sure I speak funny as well.

[main granite]

Tbf communication customs are also very different per culture

Many cultures are much more blunt/direct than American culture for example

[mossy gust]

This build is awesome. Thanks again for sharing.

[versed mountain]

People hated the summoner (hydrus) rework so much it got cancelled.

The thing is, with any type of feedback, that normally the people who are content with it won't talk about it. They're happy, they're playing the game.

The ones who dislike it come to complain about it

No matter what you do, you'll end up with someone complaining, and not a lot of people actively supporting it

But it becomes a little more evident when you realise that they're not always the same people.

Regarding the hydrus rework - a lot of people actually did like it. Me and kaine were pretty stoked for it, among others.
But a very vocal couple of people were very strongly against it - to the point where it was postponed (This was 12 months ago, so it was VERY postponed)

[lime leaf]

If the orna guy for the class is stoked for it then screw the rest xd

[main granite]

I'm a firm believer that everyone's feedback is potentially relevant, regardless of time played. The freshest player has a perspective that none of the established ones do and can give feedback regarding first impressions and expectations in that way.

Now if someone is giving bad faith feedback, that's a different story. The trick is sussing out who has valid points and who is just whining/salty/dismissive

[dreamy gazelle]

Yeah I'll try to record it to put it in the bug report. And I'm doing good how about you? I just came back from a 3 month break to try the heretic rework

[lean rampart]

🤔 I have a suspicion that not so many people played Heretics as a main character. Especially on T11. I think many people "liked" the update because they were already using the Heretic as an "option" and it doesn't really matter to them what's going on with the class if the "option" they need hasn't changed. Besides, you can always switch to another class that will "do it" better.
Hence the small number of the same people here.
The feedback on the beta test also made me think like this...
I got the feeling that only 20-40 people were active... At the same time, I still remember that the majority were delighted with the changes, but at the same time voted not to return to playing the Heretic. 😏

[astral moth]

I like it. Been playing only Heretic for 2 years

AL 80

I never switch to any other class for anything at all

[lean rampart]

Same for me. But AL only 40+

[worthy grove]

Has anyone discussed maybe having the power of element spells increase with the number of full vials?

Give another dynamic on how to use vials…

[lean rampart]

Mana vials to bust elemental and blood vials to bust non elemental spells

[astral moth]

This is also getting pretty trite. If one's AL is low then people say you don't have enough experience to have an opinion. If it's "high" then we say "oh, you just don't have issues because ALs solve everything".

Like, let's stop trying to invalidate people's opinions. For real.

[lean rampart]

I have noticed this, yes... But personally I try not to look at it from this angle, for me a high AL usually means that a person is more active and focused on the result.

[trail sphinx]

The goal of a classline change like this is to benefit all players of the class, so if anything the feedback of no/lower AL players are just as, if not more important - this is less about the pinnacle Heretic players and more about Heretic players as a whole

[finite talon]

id just like to know how many months it'll be until how flasks hinders our pvp AI is addressed. Seems Odie enjoys creating new content rather than balancing his game

[plucky badger]

Been playing heretic as main for at least a couple years, AL41. Lurked this whole thread without commenting before haha. Wanted to shoehorn heretic into multiple types of content, but did ultimately ascend and use some other classes.

Overall, I like the direction of the patch and do think flasks are distinct enough from apex. They feel like a utility belt, which I think is nice because heretic already has good power behind spells. That being said:

-For those that don't want "flasks" aesthetically, I think a purchasable cosmetic to reskin and rename them to "Runes" or something is in order.

-I don't really care if flasks are swappable or not, as long as the set has use from early to late T10/11 (looking at you, Omniflask). I did kind of like the idea of having a set tied to each subclass, and then a customizable pool, as a compromise.

-Maybe omniflask can have a chance to apply a random/aligned elemental sigil. A compromise between the lack of aligned sigilflask and the drop off of T11 utility.

-I agree with the sentiment that Manaseep isn't useful rn. Bloodloss gets the job done and doesn't mess with turn economy. I prefer it changing into a %missing mana regen skill. Other classes can generally get away with regenerating as much mana as they please while maintaining stat bonuses and desired builds. This opens up big mana potions and acorns because they don't rely on a %missing mana amity to maintain a good blueline, whereas heretic has to sacrifice CD/offensive amities (unless you're lucky), while decreasing already bad defensive stats with APs.

-I like Sigil flask, but I don't like that it feels like its the only way to effectively use sigils, and is kind of mindless/too good at that. Some random ideas: Maybe HAra should have a passive, random sigil application to a random enemy, or Ara spells can 'spread' sigils when sigils are hit, or sigiled enemies are less likely to be missed.

-I think banishment should include a beast taming debuff so its not as niche, balanced by banishing fewer summons. If Ang 2.0 changes enemy pet action rates or frequency, it may be a neat tool here.

-I think the flask infusion skills should 'pour' the respective flask into the other type. I'm not sure when locking myself out of one flask type is desirable outside repetition flask spam.

[plucky badger]

Aside from flasks, I think that the lack of synergy within the class, and the somehow still low survivability (despite Efficacious, Inflection, Mana Rush, Steadfast, and Omnimancy) will make it hard to play at higher difficulties. I think hera needs better non-traditional defense options.

/rant

[lean rampart]

it looks like the only thing left for us now is to wait for Odie...

[plucky badger]

may his vacation get the creative juices flowing 🙏

[left coyote]

I reckon if we can get manaseep usable that would be a start

I can live with the rest of the changes

[main granite]

Heretic doesn't have survivability because our offensive capability relies on tanking our defensive capabilities. Almost every other class gets to hit hard with a lot of defenses

Tbh I think that's mainly because of BoF... this single spec lets melee classes maximize their attack without sacrificing ward or res

Our passives don't come close to making up for this, offensively or defensively

[plucky badger]

I think they can hit plenty hard even without it, and there are also hybrid amity builds

[north anvil]

So, i thought i might just throw my thoughts in here, although everything i say has probably been said.

Yeah, WE was great, definetely slow and probably not suited for pvp (i dont do pvp so, eh) but im a mage! Big number=funny! I clearly remember removing half of quetzacoatl's(?) health bar with 6+million damage with level 220something. It was great!

The flasks, im not quite sure yet, they are fun! But i believe it would be great if you could switch them out like spells as it would allow player to adjust to the current stage of heretic they're in right now, what i mean is:

I am level 229, i dont use repetition flask! Big damage=omnimancy flask. This will definitely change when i hit 240, im planning to use the crit multiturns, and just spam the repition flask. It'd be great to swap them out in cases like that! Get rid of what you dont use and get it back later on.
I do like how (for me) flasks are applied in different situations, i dont find any use for the bloodloss flask in raids since i use 280 mana every turn anyway.

Bloodloss i use in horde dungeons with qatvanga!

I dont use the flask for extra defensives either, but i think it has its uses. so, swapping flasks would also grant more variety in builds i think.

We might not be tanky, against physical attacks at least. Fighting enemies that use magic im immune to half the attacks, and i tjimk thats appropriate! You shouldnt be able to tank anything and still one shot em all (some classes might but idk, thats not what im here for)

This text has gotten way too long, and probably isnt much of an addition to this thread (can always get rid of it 🤷🏽‍♂️)

TLDR, i think more flasks and being able to swap out em like spells would solve problems!
We're not physically tanky, but can breakdance in the enemies magical inferno and dont care(with a bit of luck of course)

[plucky badger]

Thinking of other RPGs, glass cannons had defensive options in the form of increase mobility, evasion, crowd control, magic shields. RS has the mobility+evasion equivalent. I wonder what might be suitable for heretic

[north anvil]

Maybe a chance to reduce damage with mana? Maybe with a % chance to be activated, something in that direction i could imagine
A flask that negates the next hit taken, to some extent, but drains all your mana, or the majority of it.(a mage with no mana is a turtle on its back so i dont know) would be a possibility too?

[plucky badger]

That would certainly be an engaging mechanic: Mages want to blueline to increase damage -> but having more mana to "absorb" damage better makes you safer, and then you can ping-pong between the two by either taking damage, casting bloodloss, drinking potions/diffuse ward

Another rendition could be one subclass having the %Stat boost being tied to the # of filled flasks, so using flasks like bloodray/repetition/sigilflask does big damage, but lowers stats

[lean rampart]

We have already been given a reduction in damage taken when using spells with 2+ turn cast
It only remains to figure out how to implement it "to the fullest"

that's why i suggested introducing more 2-turn casts

[north anvil]

More multi turn casts would be interesting, would also kinda fit the "banned casters of destructive magic" thematic? Since long casts typically equal big damage/destruction.

[lean rampart]

• if it will be an "advanced" version of 3-element spells, with a chance of crit, then it will also have potential as an alternative to the ultima for builds focused on flasks.

and if we add to this the previously proposed DeadAgain option about the bonus damage from filled flasks...

🤔

[plucky badger]

but its tied to base hera only, I dont think each subclass should have it, but I do wish they had some kind of tool. Horvus MF is janky

[plucky badger]

I saw these suggestions, but I also don't want not using flasks to be too appealing

[north anvil]

Kinda is the classes whole thing atm so yeah that'd be kinda...

[lean rampart]

this is not necessarily a refus because the damage bonus will enhance the omniflask...

[main granite]

I kinda wanted Mana Rush to be a bit more different than second chance. Example: MR has 100% chance to activate while above 50% mana. Below 50% mana, the chance of triggering decreases as mana decreases. Might need tweaks/restrictions to avoid being abusable but this is a form of survivability that makes sense for a mage

[plucky badger]

but then what about post-ultima

[main granite]

Example
100-70% mana: 100% MR chance
69-50% mana: 70% MR chance
49%-0% mana: 30-0% MR chance

[lean rampart]

If the combination of 3-element spells + omniflask under the bonus from flasks will be comparable in effectiveness to the ultima, this will already be a good option + the work of the passive to reduce damage, if you do not use quick cast... In my opinion, a good option. This will not cancel the builds on the ultima, but it will give an alternative

[north anvil]

Doesnt this just kinda sound like "do this until you have ultima"?

[plucky badger]

This would be pretty funny to watch with like... Double 5% max mana amity + full acorn adornments

[lean rampart]

That's how it looks now. At least the sequencer covers the effectiveness of the omniflask with 1 turn ultima... with a margin. Not only because the omniflask's damage is lower, but also because it needs to be charged first. Therefore, I propose to increase the damage during the process of charging flasks due to 2-turn spells, and to increase the omniflask itself due to the bonus from charged flasks + half the time you will receive reduced damage.

[north anvil]

Ok, i had an idea. I remembered this

What if not using flasks was an option? Like a charged blue flask giving mana rec or acting as extra defensive, so you have to manage your flasks properly or decide if it's worth going all out?

[plucky badger]

I'm going to contradict myself a little bit, I do like having interesting trade offs like that. Both trading flask passive benefits for active ones, or doing damage more slowly to be tankier. However, other classes are not really punished for engaging in their respective passives, except for maybe Gilga (ward fueld attacks, but heavily offset by regen anyway) and Deity kinda (Unstable Omnimancy, but then taking more damage charges apex faster)

[lean rampart]

The problem is that we have to deal with what we already have, I don't think that flasks will be rolled back in favor of some other idea. So it is advisable to squeeze the maximum possible out of what is available and not cross the line when people start shouting - this is OP! needs to be nerfed! 🧐

[north anvil]

I think the "easiest" thing to begin with would be more and replacable flasks and see how it goes from there (saying that with caution)

[plucky badger]

I personally like flasks, I want more flask abilities (tied to equipment or otherwise). I'm not super concerned with risking balance complaints right now from other classes that have well streamlined identities and passives, and can do all the content as fast but more safely

[lime leaf]

You have all the ideas xd

[main granite]

Yeah...

[plucky badger]

jealous

[worthy grove]

Oooo, want 🙂

[lime leaf]

Dang

[main granite]

Imagine mana rush having higher chances of triggering with more mana. Works with the glass cannon plan - the stronger we get, the more likely we are to die, but it still gives us more survivability when we aren't at our strongest

A more reasonable spread might be...

100% mana = 100% chance of mana rush
99%-50% = 70% chance MR
49% and below = 30% chance MR

[lusty nimbus]

You'd need to start Heretic at 50% or 49% mana to not completely break PvP with that one 😅

[umbral musk]

Imagine procing 2nd chance 3 time in a row when RNG favours u

I can imagine a number of pvp players throwing their phone at the wall out of rage.

[storm viper]

At least they get to act between each proc in this case as opposed to watching their own murder via Avidity 😅

I had a vague idea posted in the old thread about Iconoclast providing more Def/Res closer to Max Mana and more Att/Mag/Dex approaching zero Mana.

So you can start off defensively and Manaseep as you buff until you hit the sweet spot or dive in with Bloodloss and get going.

Perhaps something similar can be done with 0 full flasks vs 5 full flasks, etc.

[main granite]

I keep on not taking mana regen into account with this idea lol

But the idea is obviously that triggering second chance would be likely the first time, and less likely later on

And yeah, I want heretic second chance to trigger multiple times. I think it's the mode of survivability that best suits a glass cannon build, hanging on by a thread

[plucky badger]

only if every other class gets the same hard choice haha. I bet redline was originally meant to work something like this -- becoming strong but fragile, instead of tanky. Tying [additional] defense to flask charge # sounds more reasonable, albeit weird thematically, but you can still get some power+utility/defense trade off, assuming we keep iconoclast as is. After all, iconoclast rarely hits 100%, while deity + dorito can get to >=120% with passives, and many other classes can easily maintain their max

[lean rampart]

I decided to put together in one post what I have been suggesting myself lately and what I managed to remember from what others suggested.
I hope it will be easier to navigate when Odi returns.

Bonus to damage from full flasks (thanks to DeadAgain for an interesting idea) / mana flasks to base elemental damage, bloody to non-elemental.

• the solution will give a passive bonus in situations where there is no need for active use of flasks
• will increase the damage from 3-element spells and manaflask, which will make this bundle more competitive with Ultima at later stages, and can take the niche of Waved Element
• will enhance Vesta skills to a lesser extent, which is compensated by the sigil flask of Ara, at the same time it compensates for the poor performance of sigils on other astroclasses
• will enhance non-elemental spells for Corvus

Add 2-turn versions of 3-element spells with a crit chance.

• will increase competition with Ultima builds both separately and in bundles with Omniflask
• will allow more freely to implement the bonus to reduce damage from the passive

Add a bonus effect of filling flasks from the cost of used spells and reduce the bonus on things, to compensate.

• will reduce the dependence of future builds on equipment.
• will add synergy with existing items to increase the cost of spells
• will allow you to charge (slightly) flasks in the buff application phase.

Add a flask for temporary mana regeneration / replace the mana loss flask with a flask of temporary mana regeneration / remove the flask for mana loss and add the effect of temporary mana regeneration to the flask for temporary buffs / Add the effect of temporary mana regeneration to the flask for temporary buffs.

• will allow you to "play" with the mana balance
• in case of the implementation of the bonus from the cost of spells, it can become especially relevant in builds through things that increase the cost (Robe of the Heretic, etc.)
• in case of bonuses from temporary buffs, it will be able to synergize with the passive bonus of Corvus

The ability to customize a set of flasks / the ability to disable flasks in PvP

• in the first case, it will allow you to adjust builds to specific needs and reduce dependence on specific astroclasses (sigil flask only for Ara)
• in the second, it will solve the problem of AI in PvP.

I hope I didn't miss anything...
And I apologize for not giving normal names of flasks, in Russian they sound completely different, and I didn't have time to get into the game (I wrote during breaks between work) to double-check the name.

[astral moth]

hey @versed mountain - my post WRT the beta comments is no longer relevant. It should probably be unpinned.

oh nevermind. It has

sorry for the ping

[versed mountain]

I will never forgive you.

[astral moth]

it's only fair

[astral moth]

On a different note, I created a new character sticking to mage all through. I'm at t6. It is very hard to use flasks. The opportunity to fill one rarely presents itself and since the flasks start completely empty it is usually not practical to use them at all.
Could the earlier versions of mana flasks include some charge?

charge enough to use even 1 flask would go a long way towards incentivizing their use and getting players used to taking advantage of their abilities

and I don't mean a full flask. Just enough charge to enable their use

25% I think?

[lean rampart]

There is no starting charge of flasks in the early levels?

[astral moth]

correct. Thus far, they all start at 0

[lean rampart]

I thought everyone starts with 75% charge... 🤔

[worthy grove]

I believe it’s certain specializations not classes

[finite talon]

sure hope Odie fixes flasks being a total liability on our AI before diving his head completely into Anguish 2.0

[chilly timber]

If there are any AI issues, please open a bug report - screenshots without context will not be too helpful. Thank you 🙂

[umbral musk]

Welcome back

[finite talon]

I don't know how to present this as a bug. Our AI chooses to use a flask skill immediately upon a flask being filled regardless of the situation. It's your written code. If it's intended, I ask for a reconsideration.

i was full on wanting to have the rework to be shipped before omniflask was added.
Omniflask does nothing for us in pvp and leaves us vulnerable waiting for a very weak skill to happen.

Thank you for your response and welcome back!

[main granite]

Time to put all our feedback from this thread into https://discord.com/channels/448527960056791051/1060700071559180379

#💡│suggestions message

Put a couple big ones there already go upvote

[chilly timber]

If the AI is prioritizing it 100% of the time and there are other, more damaging options available, then I would consider it a bug.

There is no written code for every skill in the game, and the AI does need to be tweaked often as new abilities and use cases are added

[umbral musk]

if that is the case, then it is likely heretic will perform worse off than pre-identity due to flask spell being sub-optimal

[main granite]

Tbh the AI having all flasks accessible is the biggest issue. Deity isn't forced to have all apex spells in their loadout

[chilly timber]

Most flasks are never chosen by the AI, intentionally. The ones that are should generally only be chosen in favourable conditions. This was established during the beta

[lusty nimbus]

In my testing so far, the AI does seem to prioritize Omniflask over anything. I was running assassin with Saboteur selected and a mix of statuses and abilities that deal damage and it seemed pretty hellbent on using Omniflask - albeit if Omniflask can inflict a ton of elemental statuses then that makes sense to me 🤷‍♂️

[main granite]

Then yeah maybe the prioritization is off if AI is using manaray on full hp targets or omniflask when it deals way less damage than other options

I still don't see the justification for preventing us from customizing the flask loadout. It doesn't have to be mix-matching between classes - I just wanna be able to disable some of the flasks for any given content

Someone else mentioned earlier "omniflask is great for ending my endless runs when I misclick it"

[lusty nimbus]

Alternatively what if Omniflask is just taken from HAra?? Then it's only on Base Heretic too

[main granite]

Confusion can do the same thing

[umbral musk]

yeah same here, my testing showed that ai is using mana ray and omni flask randomly, often in unfavourable condition (i.e. using mana ray on almsot full hp target)

[main granite]

I also don't particularly like omniflask on ara since it has sigilflask, I'd rather put something else in its place

The fact that confusion flasks can always hinder us more than we can mitigate is super frustrating

[finite talon]

on base heretic, it's either Mana Ray or omniflask upon a flask fill.
in my findings omniflask is favored heavily.
so even on a block and/or miss, omniflask or mana Ray is chosen after two tries of a flask filling skill like magic scythe or Chakram.

not good.

[chilly timber]

in testing, i'm not getting 100% chance of the spell on flask charge

[finite talon]

I'm not sure what you mean.
what is the spell you refer to?

[chilly timber]

responding to the reports above that Manaray and Omniflask have a 100% chance of being cast upon a flask being charged

I am not able to reproduce it happening with 100% chance

[finite talon]

oi. it's been 100% for me. i haven't found a time that it hasnt

I'll do some more testing

[lusty nimbus]

Even if it isn't 100%, is there a chance to remove from Ara? 😀

That also gives each Heretic a unique Flask if so with base having Omni, Ara sigilstorm and Corvus bloodray

[chilly timber]

what is omni was only triggered if there are 2 mana and 1 blood available?

[lusty nimbus]

Both? xD

That and remove from Ara? Or is there a bigger reason it is on both base and Ara?

Or do others also like it on Ara and I'm just the odd man out

[main granite]

Literally every time I just tested in the Arena mirror, the bot uses a flask as soon as it is charged

[chilly timber]

i'll at least do the AI thing. we can do a #💡│suggestions to see the support for removing form Ara

[main granite]

Is something else going to take Omniflask's slot for Ara?

[finite talon]

i was going to post a 5 minute video of me fighting myself and omniflask or mana ray procing. but yeah. no need.

i like your idea of omniflask only happening if 2 mana and 1 blood fills. that's only when omniflask would be powerful enough

[main granite]

I don't like that idea

[lusty nimbus]

Should we also suggest manaseep being regen?

[chilly timber]

yeah, no need. i can simulate 1000s of battles, etc

[main granite]

I made a manaseep suggestion, you can add another or add to my thread

Why are we hindering the omniflask skill for people who might want to use it

Early t10, it may be a good option and they may want the AI to use it when it can. I'd like to see the AI usage improve, but also just let us customize the flask loadout within the class

[lusty nimbus]

It's just for the AI

[main granite]

If we don't have the ability to disable some flasks we will always be vulnerable to confusion for example

[main granite]

Yeah but I would rather the AI be able to use the flask with less charge if needed

[chilly timber]

if we're positioning flasks akin to passives, then i would generally only like customizing flasks for AI PVP if passives were too - and followers abilities, for that matter

The AI should just act in an acceptable matter with the options available to it

[main granite]

Should we force all Deities to have apex spells in their loadout

[chilly timber]

i am not in the "flasks are apex" camp, so won't comment

[main granite]

I am also not in that camp. The point is that Apex spells are part of the deity's passives as much as flasks are part of heretic's passives

[lusty nimbus]

Would it be possible if they aren't already this way: "balanced" prioritized Manaray, Bloodray, and/or Omniflask
"Paladin" prioritized Inflection Flask/Bloodloss
"Saboteur" prioritized Sigilstorm?

[main granite]

I don't understand why we are forced to have all flasks available to us

I'm not asking for mix and matching of flasks between classes. I am asking for the ability to disable some flasks as part of my loadouts, just like how every class chooses their skills and spells in their loadouts

[lusty nimbus]

Outside of pvp defense maybe I'm missing it but that seems... superfluous?

[main granite]

I already gave two other examples: confusion forcing us to use a flask like omniflask or manaloss or whatever, and simply misclicking a flask that we don't ever want to use in that content

[chilly timber]

if we look at base, around half of the flasks have a 0% AI chance. the remaining ones should be only used when appropriate: ie: Banishment Flask against summons

i can't see players asking for a feature to disable skills if the skills are always advantageous, so this feels like the better solution

[chilly timber]

if we use misclicks as a reason to make changes to in-battle availabity of stuff, i'd have a lot of work to do on all classes 😛

[main granite]

The only work that would need to be done is treating flasks like spells and allowing loadout customization.

Idk I provided 3 reasons why having all flasks available is not always advantageous, and I made a suggestion thread already; guess that's all I have to point out

[umbral musk]

I will be happy to be able to customise my flask loadout too, for example I will be happy to use bloodloss flask as part of my pvp loadout

[chilly timber]

which has spell place limit considerations, UI considerations to portray them differently than spells, app rollouts - likely a few UI bugs. it's never "only" anything

AI tweaks can be made serverside and take considerably less effort.

for instance, i've already done them while having this conversation

[main granite]

Yeah I didn't mean it as "it's easy", just that it's something that already has a design precedent

We select which spells we bring to battle in each content

I'd like to select which flasks I bring to each content

[finite talon]

if I can get omniflask to be chosen only 20% upon immediate flask fill, I'll be happy enough.

if I could get omniflask to be chosen only if 2 mana and 1 blood filled, I'll be a happy camper.

if I could get that and mana ray to be chosen in more appropriate situations like if the opponent is one HP and hasn't Divine Bastion'd, I'll be living the dream.

[main granite]

In my situation, I'd like omniflask to be 0% chosen in pvp

If I run out of mana and manaray isn't strong enough, so be it 😂

[finite talon]

me too really. but them the breaks it seems

[main granite]

I mean, we can keep asking... I've heard it said that Odie likes it when we complain

[finite talon]

it can come to compromise. but if the meta is exposed where someone can just defend until we become completely vulnerable from having to do a omniflask, I'll keep squawking

[main granite]

I'm gonna throw more suggestions in the meat grinder

[umbral musk]

I will be happy for pvp AI if:

• omniflask is better disabled or at the least needing all 3 flasks
• mana ray/blood is chosen in more appropriate situations such as low hp/highdex/mystic feather opponent
• banishment has a higher chance to be used, the more summon is in the field

[finite talon]

😬 I don't want banishment to be chosen. get em hit by Ara Vesta 3 and call it a day

[umbral musk]

all these personal preference is why I would like to select my own flask for loadout as @main granite mention

hell, i actually use bloodloss quite often in pvp

and wanted my ai to use them if possible

[finite talon]

ah so. i cant get blood flask filled fast enough for a second turn.
I'm out here blasting away before I get blasted from a 1million damage spiked shield

[main granite]

Yeah that's the thing. T9/early t10 players may build for omniflask and want to use it asap

Some players may not need manaray because they are using Nolan's staff or something, and always wanna just go for something bigger

Some may want banishment flask while others just need av3

Some want bloodloss while others may run a lot of mana reduction/extra mana cost pieces, and don't want to lose even more mana

[shut temple]

Personal Opinion:::

• 2-Turn spells for a Tri-ele that can crit is a big no-go for me , If anything, change Fey Catastrophes to be 2 Turned instead of 3, or buff their damage...

• I'll agree on the idea of manaseep being a mana regen instead, i use it for horde dungeons atm, and it works fine but i guess I'm using it wrong, so i'll follow the crowd on this one.

• Full Flask Giving some bonus seems a bit too overpowered to me 🤷 but i'm not sure.

• Better Filling for higher cost is a no-go, i rather have better filling for more elements than mana cost, every day.

• customizable flasks , no-go for me unless PVP, but that's because i don't give two cents about pvp , i think having custom will just point everyone to have the same flasks 🤷

What i don't like about current power of Heretic is that the fey catastrophes (cataclysm, glacier, inferno, and the thunder one) hurts you more than what you can get from other spells without getting hurt, the damage isn't that amazing, taking three turns has a chance to run out of DC/GM anyways... so either make them 2Turned, or buff their damage in some way :x

[main granite]

To be clear, customizing the flask loadout doesn't mean having any flask you want. It just means being able to remove/disable individual flasks from your options when using that loadout.

As for manaseep - do you feel like it is good in horde dungeons? Do you ever use bloodloss?

[shut temple]

just when i want, by floor 2-3 i'm already mana-seeping so by floor 10 i'm already like 75% iconoclasted, i dunno, probably bloodloss is safer anyways, i just like the 5% mana drop 😛

[trail sphinx]

The AI should just act in an acceptable matter with the options available to it
100% agree with this, but I feel like the issue is that it isn't prioritizing things adequately - unfortunately it's a lot harder to generalize priorities that a player has. Some may prefer only one turn skills, so Omniflask being 2 turn messes lots up for them, especially when the enemy is one hit from dying to the thing they were already using.

I think part of that overall problem is that most flasks take a conscious effort to use well, thinking Sigilflask before an Ara skill, or an element-sigil into a skill of that element, or using the missless flasks specifically when an enemy is low and in Mystic Feather passive or is high Dex, or using Omniflask with sufficient charge. I know for the most part those cases are eliminated, but especially for the damaging flasks, that difference is noteworthy. For other classes that don't want their AI to deal with the nuance of choosing it at the right time, they can remove those skills, or choose a pet that fits better for the playstyle (I know many who end up doing this anyway, playing more into the defense AI itself than making a solid defensive build), but flasks cannot be not selected as viable options

[trail sphinx]

But for Heretics as a whole here, for feedback purposes, let's highlight problem areas specifically here, just so we have a list:

• PvP AI seems to not be aligned with common flask usage right now
  • Possible solution: adjust logic priorities for the damage-dealing flasks accordingly
• Manaseep, in the shadow of Bloodloss, seems very underwhelming
  • With no stopping point for mana loss unless interrupted, the usecases of this come down to instances where you likely aren't using mana, in which case 2 Bloodloss flasks which take effectively 0 turns accomplish a similar goal
  • Possible solution: have it instead function like a mana equivalent of Bloodshift (keeping mana at a certain percentage above zero, after mana regeneration), with some tuning to not be fully broken
  • Possible tiny tweak: make some actions of Manaseep 0 turns, more likely the act of turning it off
• Flask charge, when not used, does nothing - it should maybe do something...?
  • I think this sentiment is in comparison to Apex, where the identity should provide at least something when not fully being used. Gilgameshes get bonus damage by way of random procs, Realmshifters get bonus turns by way of random procs, Bestial Bonds can have extra buffs like Orn/Gold boost naturally, and Deities get their weaknesses removed with full Apex meter. This idea does not extend to flasks.
  • Possible solution: give small boosts to damage based on how full flasks are / what flasks are full (above mentioned elemental damage for manaflasks and non-elemental/physical damage for bloodflasks)

^ if I missed anything do let me know

[umbral musk]

I find that omniflask underwhelming in the shadow of tri element spell, It needs to be more useful or at least help to fulfil some niche for higher lvl players

• possible fix including giving higher chance to apply status (for codexing?) or AoE when casting at all 3 flask

[lusty nimbus]

Manaseep being Regeneration or a Blueline "Bloodshift" of sorts are two different ways to address the issue with that flask is my understanding

[trail sphinx]

Oh, my bad - confuddled it with generally "stop mana loss at x%"

[lusty nimbus]

Ha. I doubt we'd get it but a third option could be "Manaseep" half damage is dealt to your health and the percentage of that is dealt to your mana while active 😆 but I think Odie already ruled the mana-shield idea out a looooooong time ago

[trail sphinx]

I'm hesistant to include "adding a niche for Omniflask for higher level players" when it's design iirc is to be outclassed later on

added quotes there to make it go from "I am able to do this" to "I am able to add this to the list of concerns"

[lusty nimbus]

Potential Manaseep Ideas? (React to your favorites/what you'd prefer or use)

1. Per Goody Phil's suggestion: Have Manaseep stop seeping mana at a certain point to help retain blueline. This would function as a pseudo mana-based "Bloodshift"

2. Per other suggestions: Have Manaseep restore mana as mana regeneration instead of taking it away.

3. Keep Manaseep draining mana but while active it increases accuracy/reduces miss chance

4. Have Manaseep disperse some amount of damage received across your mana as a pseudo-iconoclast

5. Leave Manaseep as is

6. Replace Manaseep with a different flask

7. Remove Manaseep as it is overshadowed by Bloodloss

8. Do something else/other

[left coyote]

Oh 3 is a nice idea

Why are flasks and apex skills not classed as the same thing?

[sand lava]

I imagine 'mana bloodshift' to be more like:
Manaseep keeps your mana from going above the value it was at when you used it. This would pair well with having lots of mana regen and max mana.
Ex: i use manaseep at 800 mana. I can go below that, but no matter how much mana I regen (acorns or potions) it cant go above that until I turn it off.

[lean rampart]

I think the damage bonus from full flasks could help buff the omniflask, for example, if you give it a multiplier from this effect. This would also be an additional motivator not to keep flasks always charged for the passive effect.

[left coyote]

Having some sort of passive effective with full flasks would work really well. Once im low mana and past immortal lords in a dungeon flasks are pretty useless

[lime leaf]

A name adrift on silver tides,
A whispered spark in endless night.
Does it slumber, does it wait,
Or shape itself in unseen light?

Not lost, not bound, but shifting still,
A current strong, a voice unknown.
What will rise, what will remain—
When Mague stands, when Mague is whole?

[left coyote]

What about if we just got rid of a few less useful flasks and replaced it with a chance to proc triple tmag?

[median frost]

Quadruple t.mag*

[astral moth]

and auto DC || I really hope it goes without saying this is a joke, and that I think the above is also a bit out there ||

[umbral musk]

for a moment, I thought I am in a deity thread

[left coyote]

Imagine a class with an auto DC

[lean rampart]

Well, until next year. 😌

[trail sphinx]

alright, flask AI seems reprioritized

[finite talon]

thank you Odie

[main granite]

The AI seems to love Despair for some reason

Never used any of Ara's flasks (which makes sense in this situation, though bloodloss would be good) but also never used Emberseal/Transference after a certain point

I assume it doesn't use Emberseal because it reads an opposing heretic's Omnimancy? Wonder if that needs to change with Efficacious

Emberseal would have dealt significantly more damage than despair, I think

Unless it's taking the defensive buffs into account and the m1 on despair makes it better? But the m1 on stormflare is also quite good..

[cyan geyser]

have you tried using different inclinations to see if that helps anything?

[main granite]

No, this was a random test just to look at pvp defense; we should probably do some extensive testing to understand the AI better

[fluid sky]

-- Instead of burning mana, Manaseep now recovers missing mana per turn

ok now we're talking

[umbral musk]

i wonder how much missing mana per turn

i work it out, it seems to be 10% missing mana per turn

need some1 to confirm

[fluid sky]

yea got that number too

[umbral musk]

heyy its really good it seems

i can pull out all my mana regen acorn

[fluid sky]

yup, i'll have to test some more endless

maybe this time my stats will be on par with dara after the nerf comes live

more slots opens up more possibilities at least, i'll try something out

[mortal sluice]

can we make it so we can use manaseep multiple times for additive +1% missing mana?
10% is too much regen at high al

[unreal flume]

In my Asc, testing quickly, I managed to use manaseep + V3 in Dungeons, I was recovering around 471 in Heretic base while V3 cost more than 500 (my build uses the Heretic tunic), without it I would be recovering a lot of mana

I think 5% is pretty good...

10% is really more than necessary for high asc, even with the high costs of spells + Heretic Ara... I think it could be reduced or included some "customization" to help T11 with high asc

[marble pawn]

When did the manaseep change? Bricked my despair build

[feral token]

#patch-notes message

[shut temple]

just use bloodloss twice i guess

[spiral spindle]

At the risk of getting mildly off-topic, I have tested inclination use regarding Deity Apex use, and documented some notable patterns. (Without derailing too much, Saboteur inclination—which is often the best if you want your AI to actually attack—often does not play especially well with Apex use.)

It’s like Flasks are affected similarly.

[marble pawn]

Have to change out some acorns or something for it

[trail sphinx]

after discussion in the Heretic channel in Orna Legends, we've made a couple polls for ideas on the new Manaseep - if you're in Orna Legends, I suggest paying them a visit: https://discordapp.com/channels/748188991852904621/811254572042420245/1354882316756979803

[crisp trout]

Manaseeps name needs to change now since it's regen. Also, 100% to use it is a nightmare. Love accidentally clicking it and regening all of my mana before I can disable it again.

[waxen sinew]

Manafont?

[mortal sluice]

Manalock

[trail sphinx]

Man'o'war

[main granite]

Mana seeps in, I think it's fine

[main granite]

You can turn it off with only 25%

[storm viper]

#1331673547210358794 message

Different from my Manafont idea (↑) but I like that name either way.

[spiral spindle]

I do like Manafont

[waxen sinew]

Manatee

https://tenor.com/view/manatee-oof-pout-cute-gif-15094781

[dreamy gazelle]

well mana could seep in instead of out

[crisp trout]

Used to be able to. Can't anymore

[main granite]

Oh that's probably gotta be cha ged

[crisp trout]

I never realized how much I accidentally click manaseep until the change lol. Not sure how I'm tapping it, I guess clicking too fast before everything registers

[crisp trout]

Fair point

[main granite]

That's part of why I want flask loadouts to be customized

Also AI pvp and confusion of course

[lyric bison]

It would be great if you could independently choose the flux for arena battles. like with spells. This would really help the AI make the right choice)

[tawny aurora]

I got to say, Manaseep was very useful on 2H mage builds with AoE abilities. Any thoughts on having both manaseep options. Say customizable flasks, having one regen and the other drain?

[native karma]

Cool, now i don't need to use acorn for Dara endless anymore

[storm viper]

Bloodloss doesn't work for you?

[tawny aurora]

I never stated that bloodloss didn’t work for me, but to min-max, wouldn’t manaseep keep the mana at 0 faster than bloodloss?

[storm viper]

Hence my question.

In any case, I can't think of a scenario where zero mana is ideal / 100% Iconoclast is necessary.

If I don't have the mana to restore Ward in Anguish, for example, then that Iconoclast bonus at 0 Mana isn't going to save me.

[tawny aurora]

This may be more niche than anything.

For example, using A. Qat on Heretic, doing horde content. When you cast Despair, manaseep would still drain mana. So say you take some time to buff up, generate 1 blood flask, you could turn manaseep on and continue to spam despair, while draining mana and getting stronger per cast.

Like I said, it may be niche, and nor was i complaining necessarily, more of thinking we could have both, maybe an area to manage our flasks to interchange them.

Blood flask is great! I was just trying to min max and make something fun AoE for heretic is all lol

[storm viper]

I'm an advocate for interchangeable flasks but it doesn't seem likely to happen, based on discussion from awhile ago 😕

[tawny aurora]

who knows how it will go, bloodloss will work for now. I’ll need to stop trying to min max.

Maybe they could introduce an adornment that drains mana (opposite to the regen acorns)

[main granite]

When you cast old manaseep, you could have cast bloodloss instead and immediately be at 70% or higher iconoclast, without costing a turn.

By the time you get to 70% iconoclast using old manaseep, you likely already have another bloodflask filled. That means you can cast bloodloss flask two times before manaseep gets you to the same spot the first bloodloss got you

While the 2nd bloodloss flask won't get you to 0 by itself, it's pretty darn close, didn't cost you extra turns, and gave you the icono boost immediately

[tawny aurora]

I was more of stating that both versions could be used for niche playstyles. I may be the only one that did it that way and that’s okay. I was just saying instead of one or the other, why not both

[main granite]

I understand that; what I'm pointing out is that I don't see how manaseep is more useful than bloodloss in even this specific scenario (which tbf is kind of the new meta right now)

If you really need 100% iconoclast boost instead of ~92% or whatever, there's probably a spot where you could use one or two spells that drain that last bit of mana away at no real cost

[tawny aurora]

My favorite way to setup was doing 1 bloodloss then turning on manaseep, effectively draining mana to 0, while spamming despair. So i’m doing damage, not spending mana, and it’s draining to fully buff iconoclast.

The manaseep would allow for the full max without having to use skills to fully drain as it would do turn by turn.

[fickle lake]

What about if manaseep is used when actual mana > 50% it gives drain, and if is used when actual mana < 50% it gives regen?

[main granite]

Sure, I can understand that aspect. The way I do it is to just keep enough mana to use transference or emberseal or whatever to pick off a straggler I missed.

[left coyote]

I dont understand why slowly reducing mana is wanted? Better to jist get instant buff and then plough away. 0 mana means you cant mana rush and you cant use any other skills

[finite talon]

a better way of min/maxing is starting 5 dungeons as majestrate/seeker so you can grab anything in reach at max VD. Then switch to heretic so you'll begin with very low mana.

that'll leave you enough mana to do other spells in a pinch

[main granite]

0 mana is something that manaseep used to naturally give you, hard to do otherwise. I think people just liked that 100% boost for some content that didn't need other spells. It also looks nice

[idle tendon]

This feels so good. Maybe now I will be able to hold mana potions

[coarse chasm]

So what are you playing? I am sticking with HAra for all content (I don't have Corvus yet and base just feels weak and under powered).

[main granite]

Mainly hara. My base is on DoF for horde content, qatvanga feels great as usual

Trying to set up.corvus endless right now

[coarse chasm]

What AL are you running currently for Hordes?

[main granite]

32 atm

Could be 33 but I wanna save fogstone for my 199% rift cowl that I just got

[left coyote]

Base heretic seems a bit underwhelming. No sigils and no crit thing.

[main granite]

I would like base to have a stronger efficacious. 35% immunity damage, 65% resist damage

I also feel like Corvus needs to have efficacious, it's a very flavorful ability for heretic now

[lime leaf]

Still waiting for guides lol, using base for boss dungeons and that’s it

[storm viper]

Considering that the Shadowed [Element] Strikes fill flasks as well as Infernus Mire, etc., I agree. Those attacks could finally have some niche use, at the very least, and they match the theme of the Horvus skills being "physical."

[coarse chasm]

They gave early T10 Heretic Omniflask, but honestly, it just didn't and doesn't work well for its intended audience.

• It does weak damage for the effort put in.
• It takes two turns to activate
• Its damage doesn't scale easily.
• It can't crit (liability for an end move IMO)
• It essentially takes up space in the flask selection screen.
• Depending on target, it does less damage than performing two Tri elemental attacks.

If people are leveling up from 9 to 10, I would tell them to just focus on towers at level 9. Make sure you have 200k tower shards saved up for Heritic Ara.

Heretic Ara instantly make the class playable in early T10 for quite a bit of content (Raids, Towers, Endless). Just the class switch doubled my floor count in Towers with the same gear.

Meanwhile, if you have to grind like I did in Tier 10, the going will be slow and rather painful with and without omniflask.

Only thing I miss while playing HAra is Life Siphon. That was partially patched by an Ashen Ruby.

It is a shame too, base Heretic split of 3/2 on the flasks is better than the 4/1 of HAra.

[coarse chasm]

I am not saying it has to be addressed here. Heretic base is essentially a stepping stone for the Celestial classes. One that hopefully you can skip completely in the early stages of T10. The celestials really seem essential for enjoyable (read effective) play in early to mid T10. I cannot speak for later play yet. I am not running anguish currently.

[left coyote]

I dont know why were getting part of our identity which is built in to become obsolete

Identity should be useful for fresh heretic or AL 200 heretic

[coarse chasm]

It is worry over balance issues. I think they are worried about unintended consequences. I personally don't see it. But I am not experienced enough with the game to be able to.

[lusty nimbus]

Assuming everyone agrees that Heretic needs a little something, can we try and come to a consensus on what that is?

Is it a specific thing for one celestial? Or all of them? It seems most are very happy with Ara so what are base/Corvus missing in your opinions?

If you could summarize what you think the class needs, what would it be?

[coarse chasm]

Sounds like Corvus needs efficacious.

HAra is good as is.

Base needs an ability (not inheretable by people who are just dipping in for skills) that grants access to Ultima 1 for Base Heretic Only. Remove Omniflask entirely. It is not needed at that point.

Then add a 2nd Omniblast like skill covering Arcane, dragon, Dark, and Light to the spell list (probably in the Celestials for Tier 9).

[lean rampart]

I liked the idea of ​​passive damage bonus from full flasks. Elemental from mana flasks and non-elemental from blood flasks. If you add a modifier to the omniflask not only from the waste of additional flasks but also an enhanced effect from charged ones, this can strengthen the elemental build of a regular heretic and become an alternative to wavedelement.

[coarse chasm]

Ok... but wouldn't a passive essentially incentivize never using the flasks? What type of damage bonus are you thinking? What percentages are you thinking? Would this be on a per flask basis, per flask type basis, or something else?

[left coyote]

I like that idea toom because a lot if the flasks are unusable sometimes, like banishment, so it makes sense for them, when full to be actually useful

[lean rampart]

This is not exactly my idea, and I think it is not for me to determine what percentage it will give for each flask. But the basic idea is something like this. A full mana flask gives x% damage bonus for the four main elements. A blood flask gives a bonus for non-elemental spells such as physical and/or vesta.
Omniflask gets a multiplier of this effect by Y.
Ideally, we get an effect similar to the waved element - a gradual increase in damage when charging flasks and powerful damage when spent due to the omniflask.
Personally, I would also suggest adding a crit chance for three elemental spells (or introducing their advanced version with a 5% crit chance, high damage but cast in 2 turns).
This will give more opportunities to implement a passive effect to reduce damage, and will allow you to accelerate the build at later stages both due to crit damage and due to quick cast.

[dim sluice]

I think we’re mostly good as is.

I use heretic base for horde anguish. Don’t feel it needs anything. Life siphon, elemental protections and mana rush. The 3/2 split of flasks is good. I feel it’s stable. Usable in all content. I don’t feel it “needs” anything.

Heretic ara is good. I see most people agree. But I think that it’s pretty good that the sigils are a “hara” thing. Extra magic, loss of life siphon. Again, usable, not broken, just decent. This is the powerhouse of the 3, and does make up for it with loss of survivability.

Corvus again I feel it’s good. Higher HP and no elemental protections make it lean more to the physical side of fighting, and somewhat “tanky”. Still has access to inflection with a lot more gear options. Now, it is less useful on horde because no efficacious, and no sigils. But it’s the best at endless. Again, a decent exchange for me. And the faster charge make it useful even on PvP with no scroll. Again, don’t feel anything is “needed” on this one.

Now, all this said, the cons. Omni flask is bad. Definitely no use for it at t11. And it might need adjustments for early t10. I haven’t even used it on my alt yet, because of the omnimancy spells. But then again, I don’t raid there and probably won’t really test. So yeah, I think that might deserve a bit more looking into. But don’t care for it for t11.

And then the AI on defense. I don’t think the AI will be able to understand which option is best. I never liked that route, and would much rather prefer me being able to dictate what flasks I’ll be using on defense. Same old. Been saying this since day one.

But yeah. I think the identity patch was a success. And other issues I’d say are more on the balance side of things and unrelated to this patch.

That’s just my opinion. 🍻

Jeez. Some fat fingers. Might have a couple typos

I definitely don’t think we need any more damage. I do think that would be a mistake. I’d think h ara is getting close to the nerf line, if it wasn’t that the Vesta spells aren’t extremely high pen. So I’d be a hard vote against any extra damage.

[lean rampart]

what I definitely don't agree with is that turning magicians into alchemists is a successful identity... 😒

[unreal flume]

That's what I tried to say before about Omni-flask, it's not good, Using Fumination 3 from High Taranis is a much better option if I'm ignoring critical damage.

[unreal flume]

My vote is to lean towards a new identity: Efficacious