#Heretic Identity Patch Discussion

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cedar skiff
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well, i'm sold. let's ship!

tight adder
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can you tie the bow with a 1.2x mag on Ara šŸ˜„ ?

cedar skiff
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#identitybeforebuffs

tight adder
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very well!, i'll be checking in live when it get's there, and fill accordingly in the balance patch then, thanks for the hard work odie!, looking forward to the release of identity

urban delta
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Yes, thank you! All of these balance patches look pretty fantastic!

crystal geode
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With all these changes how do we stand on anguish content now? As it is the content we lacked tools before. Is heretic able to do it with a nice success rate now?

dusk osprey
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There's a video above of someone doing Anguish 50 sweeping as a Heretic

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Partially using stuff from the 2H patch, partially using stuff from the heretic identity patch

dusk osprey
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oh, the only thing I see as a Need To Change before the heretic patch goes live:

  • please move the "Manaflasks" tab on the class select screen so it doesn't do that
clear frost
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Oh right.

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PvP AI was addressed? I can go check

dusk osprey
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dunno if AI was addressed specifically (yet?)

brisk salmon
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Bummer. Not surprised though. Pretty sure thatā€™s not an easy change. Putting them on loadouts is cheating a bit.

cedar skiff
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What are some of the ways you all would like to see the AI utilize flasks? ATM, I think only the offensive skills (rays) are utilized. And banishment, when applicable

rancid kernel
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Would the sigil Flasks fall under Saboteur?

clear frost
urban delta
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If just using what we have-

Default: Manaray, Bloodray, Banishment
Saboteur: Sigils/Stormflask
Paladin: Manaseep, Bloodloss

dusk osprey
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Ara Sigil Flask could be a nice gambit methinks

urban delta
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If we didn't already have Ranger spec I'd be interested to see Ara's extra Sigil damage swapped for accuracy on targets marked with sigils šŸ˜ˆ

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But I like what we have!

dusk crescent
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Yikes, i didnt really like the stats change. It feel like a nerf than stats diversity

tight adder
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But it's up to debate ofc

dusk crescent
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Using your corvus example, why would I take an atk stats buff, when we are a magic class

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And my goodness, ara get 20% more mana in exchange for a range of reduction to hp, def and res

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Thats... not a fair exchange

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I am not looking for overall stats buff, but at least make the exchange fair

brisk salmon
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Yeah. Agree. I think they can somehow fall into the AI. Included with other skills. And subject to the mix of spells on the loadout. Ofc, Iā€™m just talking about the actual gameplay, cause I have no idea how to make a game.

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Mana seep and blood loss will be by far the worst to make the AI use them. Tbh, I donā€™t think they will be able to be used no matter what

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AI doesnā€™t like to use spells that damage the player in any way. (Double edge, quad edge, blah blah)

jagged bane
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I miss having something in the Heretic class that can farm Anguish efficiently in the overworld. I feel like after this "nerf" to Ultima and Crit, farming will become complicated.

lucid seal
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Question: all the changes to promote scroll use, what happens to sequencers with their two staff focus?

brisk salmon
tight adder
urban delta
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Is it rolling out today? šŸ˜†

cedar skiff
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sure, 1 sec

tight adder
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it is!?, nice

lucid seal
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Ugh. Iā€™m still teaching for the next four hours. If Iā€™m going to act like the adult they hired I donā€™t get to play at first.

cedar skiff
modest sierra
trail marsh
waxen furnace
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bring back the box

urban delta
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Now there's a hashtag/movement I could get behind šŸ˜‚

tight adder
lucid seal
void ridge
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"However" mimic

terse topaz
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Should Corvus get like a 30% Mystic Feather??

dusk osprey
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30% Mystic Feather?

urban delta
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I like that I'm still uncertain if Odie's mimic was in response to the post about teaching or was him showing that he is not doing the patch today šŸ˜‚

tight adder
urban delta
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I mean, yeah, but let me dream xD

brisk salmon
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I got my hopes up

urban delta
unique gull
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Coming from non heretic what's the bloodflask for for an extra turn and draining your hp? Seems counterintuitive. Or do you get essentially "2" turns

urban delta
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Basically a quad edge for mana

unique gull
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Oh geez I thought it said HP not mana

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I'm stupid disregard haha ty

terse topaz
dusk osprey
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So nerfing Corvus' Mystic Feather down?

hushed marlin
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Maybe tie corvus MF to mana? šŸ¤”

urban delta
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While I'm all here for it, I don't mind Mystic Feather being health on HereCorvus. Maybe that's because I don't mind Purpleline on Deity but it's fun to manage both of them even if it sort of becomes less good in Endless since we are zerk-ing

I know I'm just one of many though!

dusk osprey
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Corvus MF going to Mana feels like a buff to Iconoclast, and feels less Roguey than Magey imho

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I don't use MF on Corvus at all really (probably to my detriment) but it's a lot more befitting for a rogue

urban delta
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It also lines up with being able to use Thief gear

waxen furnace
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when i was testing in beta, coming from playing alot of realm, it was natural to quad edge twice to get MF going

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its not mandatory at all by any means, but it will make runs much safer now that we are all going to have less ward

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particularly if you end up going qat for despair

brisk salmon
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I think MF is good as is.

terse topaz
clear frost
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I agree that Mystic Feather is currently nice as is

lucid seal
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Any plans to make a scroll like a questing staff? Switching to scroll and losing those ā€œlootā€ bonuses doesnā€™t sound fun

brisk salmon
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Actuallyā€¦Iā€™d love to see efficacious go through the resistance amities. Those 80 resistance amities are ridiculous. Nothing on the game is such a horrible counter to anything.

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Itā€™s bad enough that ultima is a 2 or 3 turn move. Again, no other skill is like that except BP. But at least that one has no direct counters. Every other ā€œtop tierā€ move donā€™t have counters, are 1 turn, can be buffed out of this worldā€¦idk. Feels bad

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So much talk about reducing damage on ultima. And having the elements apply independently and allā€¦or the buffs being additiveā€¦but the amity still bergs it to oblivion. Even the rhada adornments by themselves. I think those nerfs are overkill at this point

tidal frigate
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Then certain amities have two elements both at 80% res. Use two of them

dusk crescent
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The proliferation of element immunity/resistance among monster and equipment is why elemental gameplay is relatively unpopular.

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I am glad there are more elemental weakness for monster as part of this patch

jagged bane
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When will the official release be? I feel like it's already ready, just some adjustments that might be noticed only at launch, which can be fixed later in the balance patch.
@cedar skiff

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Since changes to the base stats of the class, which would be necessary for its proper use, will only come later, I believe.

tight adder
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i think the only balance missing was the 1.2x Mag for Ara instead of 1.1x that has in live, but we shall see when it's reaches live

cedar skiff
jagged bane
cedar skiff
jagged bane
tight adder
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it's easier to buff things than de-buff, community-wise that is

west wind
tight adder
urban delta
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So... today? Jk jk, I will keep hounding the announcement channels this week

tight adder
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i wish šŸ˜› but i doubt it , probably monday-tuesday, to give 2H a week of feedback

urban delta
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Yeeeeeeeah, you're probably right. I can dream though. I'm ready to spam endless and towers and anguish with crit poise! >:D

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Also to have it before the Unfelled PvP tourney starts next week

tight adder
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i tried, a non-farm AL 20 Anguish with my AL 27 Heretic, i died a couple of times (agains Imo lord, what a surprise) in Live, surge and rays are going to be way better

urban delta
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I wouldn't underestimate the ranger spec either. I've also been asking for an Arcane Archer spec forever and I'm thrilled to have a reason to finally use some of the magic bows šŸ˜„

But accuracy seems to be far more effective for landing hits than just adding dex

dusk crescent
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Would it be better to have an 'exit poll' on the current state of heretic before release?

tight adder
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probably, but i don't think anyone else is testing the state of heretic atm xD

hard bay
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I can already see how most of the new features would positively impact my current play in all content, so I feel like it's in a good spot. My one and only gripe is that base heretic does not have aligned sigil flask.

tight adder
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yeah i've been trying to do some Anguish content for fun in live, and just added the sweet juice of flasks in my mind :v

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the 2H update also really helps our class

hard bay
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Yeah I'm really enjoying despair AoE so far

tawdry solar
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I tested some Anguish content today after some change, Anguish with heretic feel terrible, endless doesn't feel different, PvP is still bad, haven't test raiding yet because i can't summon raid somehow
Compare to deity rework, heretic rework feel like you get some leftover food after the deity rework party, like a lesser apex or something
Idk why everyone here feel like it's enough, or we're just too familiar with the bad stage of heretic so just a tiny bit buff feel like okay

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Btw, other than some "flex" clip from some higher AL players, i can't find anything from low AL player here, are the high AL now the main player base? Do you guys even testing heretic?

dusk crescent
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The main reason why I would want an exit poll: I think the identity patch still fails to address the core issues the Heretic class faces, particularly in high-anguish content in Tower and Horde Dungeon. Despite being a 'glass cannon', Heretic lacks the firepower to compete with Spiked Shield or epee/rend users and struggles with accuracy.

clear frost
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Can you show the gear you tested with? It would be interesting to see if it is typical, and to see if some other new option can make up for it

tawdry solar
clear frost
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FWIW, I feel good about it because I am seeing two things:

  • My setup is much easier and faster
  • My rate of success is also higher because of a combination of mana rays, AoE qat, and AV4
  • Scrolls help a lot
  • I have no point of comparison to other classes. I am only seeing the improvement to our mechanics
tawdry solar
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Btw, what did you test? normal dungeons, pvp, raiding for anguish..? How's the result?

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and if you don't mind to share, what's your AL?

clear frost
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I couldn't be mirrored because I am a HoA player. All my testing was at AL0

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But only with Qat I am already seeing improvements in live

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I use the relatively obvious build, methinks

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This at AL75

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Well, 76 as of today

tawdry solar
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So you probably just with normal dungeons?
How do you compare with before and other stuff?
I see you have a very strong voice about Heretic rework in this thread, about how it is okay and such but base on just your test, i'd say u don't have any evidence for that

clear frost
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By significant I mean going from 3/5 completed unthemed boss hordes in angL50 to 4/5 or so (a bit higber)

tawdry solar
clear frost
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So?

tawdry solar
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2h weapon have nothing to do with heretic identity

hearty bough
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Ive seen some people in the orna legends chat say that the class is underwhelming in some ways. Some people question why there is so much satisfaction here. I have not taken the beta but now im wondering if this is really good to go

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Ofc im just antsy for a release but i hope for more finetuning

clear frost
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You can strawman me all you want. I am just one person. Dissenting opinions can say what they find as do I

tawdry solar
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because people in here doesn't take this seriously, and i think there's not much main heretic anymore so not many people bother to do the work (test)

clear frost
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The polls show opinions similar to yours, in fairness

tawdry solar
clear frost
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That is fine. I don't need your validation

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I am being transparent.

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It would do well for you to do the same IMO, but you do you

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I mean this:

clear frost
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This is called deflection

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Bring something to the table instead of just trying to discredit me. It does nothing to move the ball forward

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You want to lead something, then do it

tawdry solar
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I just don't get it, if you don't care about this and don't do enough testing, why do you put so much of your opinion here, like i see your msg here a lot and most of them base on nothing since you don't have anything to test

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Feel like you're just a guy who try to block anything good for heretic here, just someone who hate heretic

clear frost
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Again, that is fine. I tested what I was able to.

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Since you seem convinced I am the villain, I will watch from the sidelines

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I think you will find that simply trying to stir up discontent is not very productive, but you do you

tawdry solar
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I'm done here too, i'm not here to argue with you

clear frost
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Feel free to let me know if suggestions come up you would like pinned

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I am still watching to update the post where they are compiled

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Can bump as needed

brisk salmon
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@tawdry solar Iā€™d love to know more. Where do you feel itā€™s lacking the most? Is it a comparison to other classes youā€™re going for?

hearty bough
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Feel free to read some opinions lol

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Lots of these people in that chat are actually here too

dusk crescent
# brisk salmon <@703912421810765915> Iā€™d love to know more. Where do you feel itā€™s lacking the ...

I looked at it from value added by the identity patch and compare it with previous patches (i.e gilga, diety, RS).

Imo, I find our identity changes rather lacking. Think abt it, gilga get collateral dmg and RS got avidity. Both of which added punch to their class.

What did we get? An replacement passive in the form of 'efficacious' and flask spell which didnt really solve our fundamental problem.

At least to be fair, flask spell is fun to use.

scarlet pawn
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Accuracy, Iconoclast/Mana management, and sigil/rune effectiveness are all issues that have been addressed with the introduction of flasks, more or less. Scrolls are now an option and help facilitate flasks overall.

It doesn't seem like we will receive an increase in survivability beyond the Omnimancy and Mana Rush we already have, which is unfortunate but congruent with being a glass cannon; I think that particular bit has been well-defined for us.

It is admittedly difficult to be content with these changes if you've played other reworked classes--Dara in particular--but most of our major problems in gameplay have a solution now.

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I would like more from this rework, personally, but I would be asking for too much šŸ˜…

tawdry solar
# brisk salmon <@703912421810765915> Iā€™d love to know more. Where do you feel itā€™s lacking the ...

I'm not trying to compare with other classes and hope for more buff for heretic but i see some issue here

  • Dex issue: Heretic class has very low dex and mage gears usually don't give dex, in high Anguish, this is a big problem
  • Mana burn: Everyone talk about how nice it is to have a manaburn skill(flask)? For me just a stance and switch gear can do that in dungeon, for raid, i can start world raid at 70-80% blue line => meh, and how do you do stuff without mana? rely on 2h weapon skill?
  • Other flasks:
    manaray seem nice, sigil storm is nice but other than the combo sigil + AVla, it has nothing else to show. Why the sigil has to be consume?
    Repetition flask: havent test much but if this recast Ultima 2 in only 1 turn - i'll take it as okay
    aligned sigil: it just bad
    mana-surge: i'm hitting 0 with Ang50? what's this flask M1?
    storm flask: meh-bad
    Blood ray: same as mana ray but blood flask seem harder to charge
    bloodloss: is there an usecase for this one?
    banishment: a flask design to counter just a single class and has very little usecase?
    manaseep: a manaburning thing and is a blood flask???
void ridge
brisk salmon
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Interesting

tawdry solar
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And about efficious of whateve it call, 25% dmg for immune? to what? so we can charge flask with one 2h weapon in game that has AOE element spell? What about other weapon?
Like any other case you benefit from this thing?

brisk salmon
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I share some of your opinions, all 3 of yā€™all. And disagree on others.

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But hereā€™s dad

dusk crescent
cedar skiff
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Remember, this is an identity patch, not buff patch. weā€™re not intending to buff heretic into clearing all content with ease. All classes should have difficulty with some content

If weā€™re looking at this patch outside of an identity and toolkit lens, then sure - it may seem underwhelming. Live will be needed for the meta to shift and real results be shown - just as we did with deity earlier

terse topaz
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Can we change names from Omnimancy to something else

void ridge
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Deity got lucky with the identity patch, it was a huge buff tbh

terse topaz
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We are not really the omnimancy class. Are we the Alchemist class now?

cedar skiff
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Yes, we made the mistake of overbuffing to deal with the underwhelming feeling re: Deity, thatā€™s not something we should repeat

tawdry solar
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My opinion is most flask and efficous is design for just a very small usecase and can't be call identity, you'll end up with just a redundant and 2-3 flasks that you use sometimes and the other flasks never use if we're just keeping thing like this, like no one make a serious test here and just some people with no idea about heretic do the talk

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idk how things are very different in the other heretic discord channel with here

tight adder
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I tested the mechanic, not the power

brisk salmon
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I still have big issues with the glass cannon thing. I think the other glass cannon has the hands down best defensive ability in the whole game. With the best offensive spec and the highest penetration skill.

Heretic has no spec that competes. Ultima has very direct counters and is 2-3 turns and the defensive ability isā€¦middle of the road at best.

cedar skiff
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The reality is that none of us will be able to achieve sufficient testing in beta to really see the effects. That will need to happen over weeks to months in live

terse topaz
tawdry solar
hearty bough
tight adder
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If i felt the mechanic was fun, that was good for.me, i left the "damage wise" to the hardcore players šŸ¤· you could've said something these weeks tbh xD

void ridge
brisk salmon
hearty bough
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Whatever the term is then lol

cedar skiff
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Casted

terse topaz
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Every melee class gets an incredibly powerful spec that dynamically changes their builds and makes them into glass cannons of sorts. Mage's "identity" as a glass cannon frankly means nothing when it doesn't actually compete even in that metric

tawdry solar
void ridge
terse topaz
cedar skiff
tawdry solar
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If anyone here can share a build in a common mode (normal dungeons, no Anguish or raiding) which flask can be use often, i'd be appreciate. And please make it available for low Anguish too, like 20-30AL

void ridge
terse topaz
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Just feels like Heretic is the single class that has absolutely no options

tight adder
brisk salmon
brisk salmon
tight adder
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Flasks felt like your "tools to deal with trouble" since the beginning

terse topaz
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Flasks are tools, not build-arounds. We can't even select different ones for the build. Every melee class has the option of doing different things; even summoner can go blood pact I guess

brisk salmon
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Idk. Fallen sky shoes. Aaru robe. Mimic. OONC. Manage your mana. Use one of the new 2 hand weapons or a crit. Or go full orn farming. Nothing changed build wise, except the 2 handed

terse topaz
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We just... hit hard-ish and hope to live

tawdry solar
# tight adder Flasks aren't meant to be your main option of damage

true, but it should be use like at least a few times. Like when do u use storm sigil flask?
In horde mode dungeon? to do what? if you don't have a decent AOE build, you can't do horde mode and depend on that, and if you do have a good build, what's the point of storm sigil? To Flex?

terse topaz
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Our celestials and gear options offer nothing in terms of identity, and now flasks are sweet but they don't really identify us as anything in particular

brisk salmon
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The reason why I want live to start is I donā€™t see much more happening in beta. Other than flasks being used with AIā€¦? Nothing else will probably change. I also think weā€™re gonna go through a really rough patch. The next class thatā€™s gonna dominate, I think itā€™s gonna be ugly

scarlet pawn
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Diversity in stats from our gear might be helpful. We definitely have some neat tools like Aaru Robe, though they are shared by any other caster.

void ridge
# terse topaz I want options

About the accuracy, ranger gives(in beta) 30% accuracy so that solves a problem of heretic(dex issues) but you need to use a spec

terse topaz
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Odie, what in your eyes is the heretic identity? Glass cannon mage?

tawdry solar
hearty bough
tawdry solar
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Idk how about u guys but i was a main heretic and i don't even touch it a lot until today, i just read this thread and think oh, heretic might be good again until now

hearty bough
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I heard someone describe it as a sniper

brisk salmon
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Iā€™ll speak for myself. I donā€™t need to do big amounts of testing. In RL Iā€™m a bit limited in time, so usually only test what I feel is going to affect me.

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I do a bit of testing and can pretty quickly come up with builds, go to live, GF what Iā€™ll need and be ready for beta going live

tawdry solar
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But seeing what's going on here and the silent of the whole thread after 2h patch release and the stage of heretic, i just feel sad

brisk salmon
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I canā€™t speak for everyone else. But everyone needs to do their own testing Iā€™d think and figure out if their goals are possible with the patch. Which Iā€™d think, just an opinion, most will.

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Survivability will still be low. Gear options will still be restricted. Flask will help on tough spots. Dex will be less of an issue, but still present. But the patch was more to introduce a different play style. I wouldnā€™t be surprised if more flask eventually came out. It doesnā€™t feel like an impossible thing to add

tight adder
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Again, i tested since closed beta the mechanic and left my personal feelings and even set some suggestions, if they were ignored by other players / studio or felt excessive/ innecesary is not.my problem

Things were asked and i responded , if studio felt current is fine and majority says it's fine and i feel it's fine, then it's fine in my eyes

šŸ¤·

brisk salmon
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Gear variety will get better with new raids.

terse topaz
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I mean, the poll results are done

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76% of people who once mained heretic would NOT go back with this patch (small sample size tbf)

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That's the massive takeaway

hearty bough
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I think thats what the team is thinking as well. Testing is not gonna give 100% solution. A 70% one is fine

hearty bough
terse topaz
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#1333513544196554844 message

brisk salmon
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Iā€™m one of those. Iā€™m probably testing, but in the end, I feel itā€™s very restricted. Sad with it being one of the 3 ā€œmainā€ classes.

hearty bough
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Hm i wonder if that stat would change once released. Only a minority pay to participate in the beta

tawdry solar
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i'm also of the 79% but i have to say, the poll is just 34 votes

terse topaz
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I think Heretic is fun. I think Heretic is hindered by lackluster performance in a lot of endgame content

brisk salmon
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I wish I could say Iā€™d stay hereticā€¦but wow. Thatā€™s a tough pill to swallow

terse topaz
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Yeah fair point that it's a limited sample size for sure

hearty bough
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Im gonna main heretic whether its good or not. Its a part of my orna identity. I just realllly hope that its at least decent xd

terse topaz
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Agreed - but I want this identity patch to be more identifying

tawdry solar
terse topaz
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Mage has always been fun for me

hearty bough
terse topaz
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Legitimate question

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Are we drinking mana? Are we making solutions?

hearty bough
terse topaz
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Are we pouring mana into flasks?

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Why

hearty bough
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Who knows xd

terse topaz
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That's my point, we are just... mages

tawdry solar
hearty bough
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Thats what you have been saying i guess

terse topaz
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I like being a mage, but the current state of heretic is still fairly one-dimensional. We just got new tricks

tawdry solar
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I'd say this again, flask feel like a copied homework of apex, not like an identify to a class

scarlet pawn
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Gear availability/diversity goes a long way...Can't use a Celestial Lute, etc. like other casters but they can use all the same gear as Heretics where it works for them. But I guess that's a bit beyond the scope here.

terse topaz
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Lessons learned from apex is not copied homework. I like the mechanic in general

brisk salmon
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Gear diversity is hard to pull off. The 3 main classes and GS are restricted the same. We canā€™t get all 3 gear types.

tawdry solar
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i don't say i don't like apex and i know Odie take a lot of work to make this but 2 class identity shouldn't be this familiar

terse topaz
scarlet pawn
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And the comparisons aren't helpful but something about Heretic celestial variants feels lacking, looking at the others.

brisk salmon
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Gear diversity for me is what the gear does. For example, Aaru armor and Ymir Cliffside. I donā€™t need those, just a version of them

terse topaz
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Comparisons can be helpful IMO

void ridge
scarlet pawn
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I understand we can't have all gear types, that's why I mentioned stat diversity with our gear.

terse topaz
tight adder
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Give Hara Warriors gear :v

tight adder
scarlet pawn
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But the problem there is that it's not ours. It can be used by any caster. The same could be said of Warrior and Thief though.

tight adder
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If dara didnt had that +200% all it will be very mid mage

scarlet pawn
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But that doesn't appear to be a problem for Warrior and Thief like it is for Mage.

terse topaz
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Dara was 120%, and only 100% now

tight adder
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And that's saying from someone who loves DAra

scarlet pawn
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So idk... It's weird

tawdry solar
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I mean, Gilga CD hit extra target and we can build it to 100% chance, before 2h rework, it's one of the best way to run tower

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and avidity, i don't play RS a lot but i think it's very good too

terse topaz
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There are 7 melee variants of t10 classes, 4 hybrid variants, and 4 mage variants. I'm excluding summoners because they don't count as mages

hearty bough
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If other classes get nerfed then heretic gets buffed haha

tawdry solar
tight adder
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An AL 150 did anguish 50 without issue using flasks

I did Anguish 20 with AL 27 heretic btw... I cant do that in live... Probably skill issue tho

hearty bough
# tawdry solar We don't do that here <:mimic:565607716094214174>

Tongue in cheek but kinda serious. You said that some flasks seem less useful than others (i think). Maybe those can be fixed until theres more variety of play style within the class. Then from there on, its just a power issue nerf other classes/buff heretic. Same endstate

void ridge
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Btw, it's true that flasks feel like a copy of apex, which limits the passive imo

tight adder
#

I can do ang20 with DAra 20, does that means that Dara isnbroken or heretic is weak?

hearty bough
tight adder
tawdry solar
#

We need to do more testing but seem like because of the 2h patch, people are busying with that in live patch and don't have time to test this but when i come here this week, all i see every moring is someone say is this ready for live yet and Odie make a joke about shipping this today and i'm scare we're getting a bad rework because noone say anything about the bad stage of this identity patch

hearty bough
tight adder
#

+1 on closed beta but there were basicslly like 5 people checking that xD

scarlet pawn
#

Looking at our abilities, the only mage-exclusive ability is Weaved Elements, which will soon be replaced by flasks.

Flasks are tools, which is fine...but they lack the definition that other exclusive abilities seem to provide for their respective classes. Is that fair to say? That's how I feel about it, at least

Mechanically speaking, I do not know what can be done to fix this weird disparity without addressing things beyond the mage line itself.

tawdry solar
#

Oh, speaking about weaverd elements, i think it's even have more usecase than efficacious and most of the flasks and i rarely use weaved elements šŸ˜‚

tight adder
#

Weaved elements only gave more damage tho unu

If something could've gone like the game... Magicka i think itnis

tawdry solar
#

i think it's even more identity than what we're gonna get mimic

tight adder
#

Combine 2-3-4 elements and wa-bam new effect :v

terse topaz
#

Weaved elements was tied to our identity as the omnimancy line

#

Flasks are something else

scarlet pawn
void ridge
#

Efficacious just needs a buff to be OP(half-joke half-true)

scarlet pawn
tawdry solar
#

Not joking, if we somehow change, rework weaved element a bit and not making it too OP with Ultima, we'll have a good identity

tight adder
urban delta
# hearty bough I heard someone describe it as a sniper

I'll pop in - I called it a Sniper. It feels like you prep a shot and absolutely demolish something - Sigil Flasks into AV or Alignment Sigil into Ultima 1/2

I actually really like that identity - enough that I'm considering finally putting Deity in the bag in the corner and swapping to a different class. I haven't done a lot of a anguish so I can't speak to that but I don't have a hard time with Heretic in towers on live, I'm just slower than other classes šŸ¤·ā€ā™‚ļø whereas in raids, I felt like at least compared to DAra I can chew them through significantly faster.

Flasks add a toolkit to that - one that feels like a better Apex if we're going to make that comparison because I can actually use them when it counts whereas Apex just kind of sits in the majority of content. But there's a difference there too - Deity is plenty strong in all kinds of content whether it uses Apex moves or not. Heretic needs Flasks as a toolkit to make up for weaknesses in various forms of content

Per beta - Ranger feels really nice paired with Heretic and that makes me think those Arisen Rift staves are also going to be important. If I were to add anything to what's on beta, it would be something with accuracy - i.e "When targeting an opponent marked with a sigil, you are less likely to miss" but I'm not sure it needs that without being able to test regularly on live. A second would be making it so Sigils or Blights + Efficacious gives you the proper weak damage instead of 25% of whatever the weak damage is

Endless feels very different if you're rocking Hera Corvus. As someone who's an avid Endless spammer and has worked Ara to the bone in that regard, the ability to actually keep some of the insane fade rate buffs up is crazy good

Anguish - I will yield to those more experienced. If it's a struggle, it's a struggle

terse topaz
#

Yeah I agree. I thought we'd lean into the omnimancy identity, but it seems we are moving away from it - which is fine

#

But there is no identity replacing it right now. The identity patch has badically removed our existing identity

tight adder
void ridge
#

About the dex, remember that ranger will be great for that with the next patch

scarlet pawn
#

Strictly looking at Heretic, base should have boosted efficacy and focus on elements, Ara has sigils, and Corvus should focus on magic skills.

Looking at the whole mage line... Yeah, something is missing. Deity has a form of Omnimancy, Realm has Crit bonuses, any one else can cast any of our spells (but why would they?), etc. Big damage is achieved just as easily elsewhere, too.

terse topaz
#

We have no defining spells, and our primary niche is efficient raiding

#

Flasks do give us another niche which is cool

tight adder
#

I'll die to my dying breath that we should have gotten Mana Shield (Ward+Sacrificed Mana) as new Ward

You will sacrifice your mana to get some blue line that gives you back Blue ward which doesn't count on Ward spells but you get a bit tankier

terse topaz
#

I like the general concept of shielding as a mage. In D&D, the spell Shield is incredibly iconic and useful

#

Reactive spells that protect you

#

Mages don't just fold to a punch, we use our spells to protect ourselves

#

That's why I dislike the glass cannon pigeonhole

#

Squishy doesn't have to mean glass cannon

#

I absolutely loved using Transference in earlier tiers, by far my favorite part of mage. I played tanky

#

We even have the best defensive buffs from Druid

urban delta
terse topaz
#

Why last ditch?

#

Active survival, not passive chance

#

That's what I want

urban delta
#

So what if it were an automatic effect above a certain threshhold of mana??

terse topaz
#

Right direction

hearty bough
#

Wouldnā€™t the tanky classes start complaining that we stole their stuff then?

urban delta
#

Or significantly higher - i.e BeoH pet death

terse topaz
hearty bough
#

Youā€™re asking for more versatility

terse topaz
#

Yes

void ridge
#

Spec

urban delta
#

If it were an automatic effect, it would still increase survivability if only to a small extent. šŸ¤” The one issue I see then is that you'd completely null the ability to be one shot in PvP which while neat on paper... probably shouldn't exist

terse topaz
#

Mana rush - 100% chance to save you at 1hp while your mana is above 50%. 50% chance to save you while your mana is below 50%. Takes away 50% of current mana when triggered

#

That's A form of increased survivability

#

May not be balanced

tawdry solar
#

Love all the new ideas
for me, i like mage identity to be something that relate to elements, every other classes end up going physics or non element or Ultima, would be nice if there's a class that make use use more elements and make calculate about which element are we gonna use

urban delta
#

^ I feel like that could be alleviated with making Efficacious and Sigils work together to ignore immunities entirely

#

But again - per Odie's comments, is there a way to change/adjust any of this without it being a straight buff?

tawdry solar
#

Weaved element is a good start but it's too slow, may be make something like if you exploit weakness, we get a charge/stack that increase dmg of next 4-5 turns by x%, and set a limit for the number of stack like 3-5 stacks

terse topaz
#

It doesn't matter if it's a straight buff. As long as it's about the identity

scarlet pawn
#

Then the issue becomes Dara, Beo, and Summoner having access and the potential things they can do with it.

So more exclusivity would need to come with that gear diversity, whether it's re-categorizing gear or adjusting restrictions. Spells that only work for classes in our line could be a thing too; Calls and summons are the precedent there.

void ridge
#

So, the problems of Heretics are?? I got lost

hearty bough
tawdry solar
#

we can use that to increase next 4-5 AoE turn i dungeons, or setup for raiding
haven't think about pvp yet, it's just a starting idea

terse topaz
#

Odie didn't say we couldn't be buffed, he said that wasn't the point

#

The point of this update is giving us an identity

tight adder
#

The identity is the mechanic, not the power

urban delta
#

I'd say let's get off the weaved elements train and try and work within the frame of what is already there [on beta] if we are going to suggest anything last minute?

scarlet pawn
#

That's fair

terse topaz
#

I don't feel like flasks are enough of an identity. They are tools but mage is still just "hit kinda hard"

tawdry solar
#

it's very different from deity rework when everything are very strong at start

terse topaz
urban delta
#

@brisk salmon @dusk osprey if you two are around, I think your opinions have much more merit than mine

hearty bough
#

Letā€™s stop yelp reviews we need actionable items xd

terse topaz
#

What is the Heretic identity in your opinions

tawdry solar
urban delta
tawdry solar
#

Btw, i dont need a buff, i'd rather have a new identity but i don't think it would happend since it'll take a lot of work and the whole current work is for nothing

scarlet pawn
#

Flask choice; Keep the types of flasks each mage has the same (2 blood, 3 Mana/etc.) but let us choose the ones we want to use.

hearty bough
terse topaz
scarlet pawn
urban delta
terse topaz
#

I think "spell sniper" is a great niche that should be the identity of H.Ara, but not the entire class

#

Ara is basically that

#

It focuses on the sigils and combos and has the higher damage cap

#

But the others are...

urban delta
#

Corvus is dodgy sniper - you crit and dodge
Base is just a mage but still feels like a sniper to an extent

terse topaz
#

Right I think that needs to change

urban delta
#

Again with the sigils working paired with efficacious, base would have the elementalist role as well

terse topaz
#

Base heretic should be elementalist

#

The true omnimancer

#

Some fixed, good version of weaved elements type ability to cement Heretic as Omnimancer

tawdry solar
#

i really like the omnimancy spells tier 9 and used them a lot, idk why studio don't make them more viable, they feel very mage thing

urban delta
#

Clarifying what I'm talking about here:
-Efficacious reduces immunity to 25% damage instead of 0
-Efficacious plus Sigil (currently) applies weak but still reduces the weak damage to 25% of it

I'd suggest that Efficacious allows one to utilize elemental sigils to completely bypass immunity. Boom, Omnimancy spells can be used again

terse topaz
#

What if base Heretic had the best version of Efficacious

tight adder
terse topaz
scarlet pawn
#

Base Heretic can't use elemental sigils currently, unless you mean Aquila, Draco, etc working with Efficacious as well.

urban delta
terse topaz
tawdry solar
#

yeah, heretic identity can't be about sigil, base heretic don't have them

tight adder
terse topaz
scarlet pawn
#

Yes. Just like extra turns can come from Dof/BoF. We're looking for our identity here, aren't we?

thin stone
# terse topaz What is the Heretic identity in your opinions

Elements for sure.

It starts with elements from T1 and stays that way all the way until Ultima and non-elemental magic takes over (transference, ara vestas, mage's dance, etc.). It feels kinda like everyone knows that's the answer but nobody including NF wants to figure out how to completely rework the game such that elemental magic stays interesting when non-elemental magic does the job with less mental effort.

It's why there's been so little talk of Efficacious since the beta started -- it honestly just doesn't come up that much in the endgame. One would think that ignoring elemental effects would be a huge thing, but we're already just completely used to (and now, expecting) it that it doesn't move the needle.

At any rate, at this stage in development I would say flasks are probably just locked in as the custom classline feature; identity through a totally separate game mechanic instead of being the best at some mechanic that everyone has a little bit of access to. Makes it a very vertical thing, easy/less effort to balance later on without affecting other classes.

hearty bough
#

Vertical?

terse topaz
hearty bough
#

I enjoy all the longer posts btw xd

thin stone
# hearty bough Vertical?

Each class is increasingly a silo, separate from the others. Vertical meaning all changes and design can happen in one class without touching the others; as opposed to horizontal mechanics which affect everyone simultaneously.

urban delta
hearty bough
terse topaz
#

So let's give the class some defining abilities

#

Ara has vesta sigils

#

Combo sniper

urban delta
#

I take that back - maybe raiding

terse topaz
#

That fits well IMO. Base Heretic likely needs to be the focus on elemental damage

scarlet pawn
#

I mentioned flask selection not long ago.

The type of flasks available to each class can remain, but selection of Mana or Bloodflask effects should be customizable within the limitations (Ara can't choose Bloodflasks, base can swap in Blood Ray, etc.)

tawdry solar
#

Tbh, i don't mind waiting a few more months for a new mage identity that's not flask. I rather this patch gone like the GSH can use follower thing, with something this bad, i don't think there's easy way to fix it, rather start again

urban delta
#

Okay so what if - if I'm understanding:

-Mana Rush has a higher chance above a certain threshhold, lower/none below it
-t10 Omnimancy spells (maybe they interact with sigils/efficacious differently??)
-Something for base Heretic whether that is the Elemental Sigils flask, higher level Efficacious or some reason to utilize the elements
-Something accuracy adjacent???

terse topaz
#

I like those points in general

#

What if Omnimancy passive could make us randomly resistant to Physical

urban delta
#

What about: "elemental status flask hits all 4 elemental statuses at full or hits your faction element" so you have a way to guarantee what exactly it will do

tawdry solar
#

i like a passive elemental/omnimancy thing more, we're all know if some spells are good, Dara is gonna be better at it

urban delta
terse topaz
urban delta
#
  1. PvP
  2. huge increase in survivability even if it is random
  3. Isn't an element, has nothing to do with an element
  4. Randomly hoses other classes/builds even more so than just getting second chance into big nuke
#

Just off the top of my head

tawdry solar
terse topaz
dense birch
#

Since elemental spells seem to be the class' base identity how about a small passive that makes elemental spells have a higher accuracy on heretic (something like spell mastery)? And maybe add an inbuilt doublecast chance to those spells or something along those lines? (For heretic only)
Also, for a glass cannon class, it really needs a way to somehow bypass 2nd chance (that can be built towards to an extent)

urban delta
thin stone
#

To avoid being a total Debbie Downer about the lost elemental identity (and imo it is lost, not salvagable, not going to be changed in this patch) -- I'm trying to think of flasks as a good thing and how mages can have this identity of "always having modifiers/options". The core concept being a toolbelt classline. Big brain mage alchemist.

Mages have this separate resource bar to use on all sorts of wacky stuff. They're Adam West Batman with shark-repellant-spray in one of the pouches. Practically they should be able to do "small" things that solve an immediate problem that other classes can't do.

I liked the 0-turn flasks talk the most; not creating a ton of unique skills from flasks but instead creating skill-modifiers and other small effects. You can't use them every turn (because it just takes too many resources, and there's a limit to how fast you can refill the resource bar), but you should be able to fish around in there and pull out a helper on command.

Like:

  • enemy is about to hit you with a big hit? give yourself resistance to that element for this turn only (and you have to know or guess the element incoming)
  • there's two enemies that both need to die this turn? let your skill hit exactly one more enemy for this turn only
  • frozen, blighted, stunned? ignore the chance of losing your turn but only for this turn, the statuses aren't healed
  • you're just barely out of the mana you need to cast your spell? here's a free medium mana potion on the house

Anyway, I've said enough. I am trying not to insert myself into mague discussions too much because as a GS nee Beo, I'm only kinda mague anyway not true mague. šŸ˜…

terse topaz
#

My issue is that our class identity - omnimnacy - is universally resisted and performs poorly in the game. But physical damage is like the golden calf

tawdry solar
dense birch
dense birch
scarlet pawn
terse topaz
#

Base heretic:

  • New Efficacious effect: 40% damage on immunities, 65% damage on resists, +7% accuracy on elemental spells
dense birch
tawdry solar
#

Btw, i think the idea why we struggle with new identity and why flask feel familiar to Apex because an identity passive is very hard to think of and any identity spell/skill will end up using more by other class (deity), that's why Odie go with flask - something that's active but locked behind a bar so other classes can't use

tawdry solar
hearty bough
dusk osprey
# urban delta <@299715973961744385> <@362679617817018371> if you two are around, I think your ...

Haven't fully backread, but my general thoughts:

  • Polls in #1333513544196554844 were done before changes to flasks, Corvus skills, celestial stat changes etc. that are pinned here, so I'd take whatever comes from there with a pinch of salt. Not to say that it is fully invalid, but those concerns might already be solved
  • Even as a mid-AL Heretic (66) I still feel like I'll have a comfortable challenge with the things we "suck" at, namely Anguish.
  • With Anguish 2.0 coming out, I believe the focus of it is less stemming on cranking enemy stats up, and more about tying various arms behind your back while making the enemies a little bit stronger. While Dex is an issue in high scenarios like high Anguish, this might alleviate that concern. Dex, to my knowledge, is an issue that Odie is trying to acknowledge when designing Anguish 2.0 (but don't quote me on that)
  • I'd hate to see this as "the only" thing Heretics will get, we can always get changes if these aren't good enough. We've seen it with other classlines like Realms & Avidity, we can see it later for Heretics. If there is an issue with this identity patch and it goes south, we are not exactly in open waters without a buoy. As Odie said, it's important to see how these changes really stack up in public before coming to any major conclusions about pain points. Most of our worries have been alleviated and adjusted over this alpha and beta period.
  • I would still love to see base Heretic's Efficacious diddied up a little to give it a tiny bit more pizzazz šŸ™‚
#

I understand y'all are concerned but folks like @thin stone can attest I was up everyone's asses in private ORN alpha and now it's at a point where I think it's useable

#

Also, I do see a general problem in lack of beta testing - I am of the belief that a more automated way to make mirrors will make the strain lighter on everyone and the entry for beta testing much lower, which will get more testing done

#

But I am just a fella, no NF member, so I cannot do anything for that other than scream and hope it gets heard mimic

terse topaz
#

I think efficacious has potential

tawdry solar
#

with some tweak, yes

scarlet pawn
#

Some ideas for working with what is already present:

  • Increase the efficiency of Efficacious (perhaps for base Heretic specifically)
  • All flasks available to choose from but the capacity/number of Mana vs Bloodflasks you can equip is based on the class (Ara has no Bloodflasks, Corvus & Nekro could have more Blood than Manaflasks, etc.)
  • (Or just let base Hera use the Alignment flask)
  • Base fills flasks faster with elemental magic, Ara with Ara spells, Corvus with Mag-based skills
dusk osprey
#

We have the propensity to convert Efficacious into a more reliable carry for things like Despair - it in its current state is nice, not as useless as we initially thought, but still could use a smidge more love

tawdry solar
#

Btw, other than just despair, maji has some AoE element spells as well, would love to see they comeback to usable

dusk osprey
#

I would love to see them get a bit more raw damage as a result - but the M1/M2 values for that evade me atm

#

If only I had a way to - be right back

thin stone
#

Despair? M1=2.4,M2=1 iirc. Like, it's really strong.

dusk osprey
#

I mean like the Maji AoE

#

Natura III - Power: 2000
Mage's Dance - Power: 500-2000

alright so already the Maji AoE has

  • consistent damage, less varied M2
  • higher damage overall
  • higher mana cost (200 vs 80)
  • is elemental

would love to simply see Maji AoE cost a little less mana

dense birch
dusk osprey
#

With Efficacious, the lowest damage you get with Natura III is equal to the lowest Mage's Dance damage roll, disregarding the faction bonus you get

#

seems pretty alright to me as it stands, bar the mana cost ofc

#

let me check to see if that 2 is in M1 or M2 real quick

thin stone
#

I thought the bigger problem was that MD is nonsplitting, maji aoe is splitting. Ergo it'll deal 4-5x less total damage against packs of 4-5 enemies.

dusk osprey
#

oh wait is Maji AoE splitting?

hearty bough
#

I love how this chat gets super opinionated then super fact heavy xd

dusk osprey
#

yeah that should definitely be changed, full stop - either more power given to the skill, or simply make it spread AoE

#

I work best with numbers, people second best mimic

hearty bough
#

I think both are required

dusk osprey
#

Maji AoE does indeed look to be M1: 2, M2: 1

#

It's been a minute since I've used Maji AoE mimic

#

gee if only I looked at my own dang page

image.png
thin stone
#

Summoners are the biggest users of maji aoe due to Ancient Jinn. šŸ˜…

terse topaz
#

Suggested changes to more clearly support the Heretic identity:

General changes

  • New T10 versions of Omnimancy spells that can crit 1ļøāƒ£
  • Mana Rush chance to activate is higher when mana is above 50%, and lower when below 50% 2ļøāƒ£
  • Choosing flask loadouts similar to spells to really emphasise the multi-tool/prepared spells aspect of wizards 3ļøāƒ£
  • New flasks that can increase survivability (resist the next attack, give us a temporary mana shield, ignore statuses, refill some mana and hp, etc) 4ļøāƒ£
  • Maji specialization spells should be retooled to bring them up to current AOE standards 5ļøāƒ£
  • Elemental weakness sigils should partially override/increase efficacious damage on immunities 8ļøāƒ£
  • At least one flask (maybe up to half) starts fully charged šŸ”Ÿ

Base Heretic

  • Efficacious: upgraded version that increases damage dealt. 40% to immunities, 65% to resistances. In addition, elemental spells will have increased accuracy (7%) 6ļøāƒ£
  • Give it elemental sigil flask 7ļøāƒ£

Corvus

  • Give it Efficacious 9ļøāƒ£
dusk osprey
#

oh, and imho, Heretic's biggest strength coming forth with this patch is Consistency - flasks will let you ALWAYS get something off, ALWAYS hit, ALWAYS debuff, etc.

#

crits from crit poise will be up much longer if you're consistently critting, etc.

hearty bough
#

What do you think about Philā€™s list? It got really hot up in here for a couple hours

terse topaz
#

You all can vote on what you like using numbers if you want

#

Reactions

#

I like heretic's identity being the multitool

hearty bough
#

I feel like i donā€™t know enough to vote. I feel like the average player wonā€™t know enough.

terse topaz
#

We can also discuss and tweak stuff of course

#

These are just my suggestions based on some of the stuff we mentioned

hearty bough
#

I simply trust that the process is fair. And imma full send regardless

dusk osprey
#

Oh, and for those worried about not knowing builds because there's "not enough Heretics" - once this patch comes out, we're making a Heretic build thing not too dissimilar to the Deity one

tawdry solar
dusk osprey
#

I think my opinions on the patch can be seen above - but some will naturally have less usecase, not all need to be useful

#

Flasks definitely shine as the more identity-focused thing, imo, they are exclusive much like Apex

#

I could see Efficacious becoming something of an amity effect, to a lesser degree of course

dusk osprey
terse topaz
#

I don't really get how "flasks" is an identity

dusk osprey
#

I mean, what does the Apex identity mean? They're similar in implementation

scarlet pawn
#

They are mechanically distinct

#

Theme/lore-wise, flasks are an odd choice, I'll agree.

dusk osprey
#

They might not make full thematic sense right now, but Collateral Damage didn't much for Gilga apart from being melee-y

terse topaz
#

Let's take it back a step then - what is a class identity

#

Just a unique mechanic?

dusk osprey
#

A thing a classline possesses (and/or excels at) that others don't

terse topaz
#

Is gilga identity CD or ward?

dusk osprey
#

was the Gilga Identity Patch to give them ward?

terse topaz
#

I have no idea

#

I started playing the game 8 months ago

urban delta
dusk osprey
#

mostly a rhetorical question, no, it was to give them Collateral Damage

terse topaz
#

Using the term "class identity" to mean "specific mechanic that class has" is very strange to me

dusk osprey
#

what would you describe it as?

#

if other classlines have it, is it really an identity?

terse topaz
#

Identity is a sense of self

#

Not a specific single thing

dusk osprey
#

I'm confused at the issue with Heretics' identity then

terse topaz
#

"Mage"

#

Sorry, "glass cannon mage"

#

Just has always felt generic to me

#

And we've lost a lot of the Omnimancy aspect

hearty bough
terse topaz
#

That's what different classes are for

hearty bough
#

True

dusk osprey
#

I mean, what is the Shadowmancy classline? Dodgy rogue that moves fast

hearty bough
#

But the reason one person plays a class wonā€™t be the same as another

terse topaz
#

And then rogue with a shield, heavier tankiness

urban delta
#

Yeah but we then get dodgy mage with spells and potions

dusk osprey
#

Realm Dorado more emphasizes "dodgy" part of that, imho

#

Realm Corvus ofc is "moves fast"

#

or wait is it the other way around

#

one of the two

#

it's late

terse topaz
#

There's definitely some overlap between RS and heretic in that they both are squishy damage dealers

#

But RS outshines heretic in most scenarios. Thankfully flasks are helping some aspects of that, which is why I've enjoyed the limited testing

tawdry solar
dusk osprey
#

I am still unaware of what the problem is other than "it is too generic"

terse topaz
#

Well this is the identity patch

#

If the identity is too generic, I see that as an issue

urban delta
#

Realm and Heretic post patch will also be the two spiciest non-summoner classes (imo)

dusk osprey
#

we now have elemental prowess, and use that to huck a bunch of potions either down our throats or at our enemies

#

little more than "glass cannon mage" imo

hearty bough
terse topaz
#

Current status just doesn't feel like it's leaning into the elemental prowess enough is all

#

We actually lost some elemental prowess

dusk osprey
#

I mean, it's how we charge flasks - the more you use (bar Ultima), the faster it charges

#

Omnimancy charges flasks the fastest

urban delta
#

I think Konq also said as much hoping for extra tuning for Efficacious

#

Or did I misread

#

I'm tired šŸ˜“

dusk osprey
#

I did want a little more from Efficacious, but not for identity purposes

terse topaz
urban delta
#

Oh I see

terse topaz
#

Thematically speaking, flasks make less sense than weaved elements

dusk osprey
#

so should the solution be "tune up Omnimancy damage"?

terse topaz
#

Tune up omnimancy theme

tawdry solar
#

We don't choose flask to be our identity but we might have to stick with it so all we can do now is provide some idea for it to be better
I like the idea of flask being solution giving, maybe nerf them a bit but make them 0 turn

terse topaz
#

By making omnimancy matter more

urban delta
#

t10 Omnimancy spells >:D

terse topaz
#

^

tawdry solar
#

Like we choose this solution to pair with what we do next

terse topaz
#

Efficacious buff as you suggested

#

Minor things that lean into the theme more

#

Make omnimancy matter in more content

urban delta
#

I'm still on the Sigil train to pair with Efficacious even if that isn't the only solution/option. I feel like it would open up a lot of options in raids, endless and other content

#

But t10 Omnimancy spells sound cool - problem then being do other classes get to use them?

terse topaz
#

Yes but heretics would get better use of them

urban delta
#

What if it were similar to the Shadowed Elemental strikes from Realm Nyx Celestials? Give Arcane plus an Element??

tawdry solar
#

i agree with Phil on the Efficacious buff, it's more element/mage thing than flask

#

about sigil, i think it should be just a heretic Ara thing

scarlet pawn
#

Everyone can have a follower but Valhallans have the training and bonds that no other can attain.

Everyone can attempt to summon but Elysians possess the ability to successfully call and guide them.

Everyone has Ward but only the Gilgamesh draw power from theirs, and so forth...

Without getting into specifics like CD, flasks, or Avidity, where do Mages truly stand out/specialize, based on universal mechanics? Is that the identity we seek here?

dusk osprey
#

this is getting too philosophical for 2AM, I need to sleep

terse topaz
#

Mages use elemental magic better than others

#

No more weaved elements so efficacious is what we got

urban delta
#

I mean no one else gets to steal extra turns xD

No one else gets to use flasks

No one else gets to use Apex but outside of 2 moves, Deities don't even do that much xP

#

But yes, I think your last question is probably where I see the discussion going

tawdry solar
#

where do Mages truly stand out/specialize, based on universal mechanics? Is that the identity we seek here?
We want elemental magic

terse topaz
#

The thing I want to see for mage identity:

  • Best usage of elemental magic
  • Right tool for the right job mentality via flasks. A good mage is always prepared
#

Just make those two thing more

urban delta
#

Hahaha it wouldn't ever happen and isn't on theme - but a flask that fired off a guaranteed Forbid or Impale effect would certainly get you there for survivability

#

That's part of the reason I'd love to see the randomness of the elemental status one be tailorable. Sometimes I want the Freeze effect. Others I really want Burning to reduce someone's offensive capabilities

#

Decay maybe for extra penetration... sorry Paralyze, not super useful right now

scarlet pawn
#

I think identity is best discerned by what one class does better than others based on the mechanics every class can use. Beyond that, we're sort of conflating theme/lore with actual function.

urban delta
#

How would you all feel if the patch came out tomorrow/Monday and Odie fine tuned things as data comes in? He already made comment about being ready to fine tune/tweaking being easier than people think

terse topaz
#

That would be ok but I would want at least an efficacious buff

#

Especially if base heretic had the best version of it

urban delta
#

Efficacious II: "Omnimancy spells will ignore damage reduction of resistances and immunities"

#

Doesn't buff Ultima, just allows you to use your Heat Lightning in a lot more content xD

#

Since Ultima already doesn't care about resistances/immunities (not talking about the amity effects)

tawdry solar
errant narwhal
#

Will there be a gear in the future that supports the flask. Efficacious aside from moori and off hand scroll

urban delta
daring sand
#

Wow. So much has been written...
On the issue of identity and all that...
I once suggested an option - to make slots for autocast, as an analogue of slots for autosummoning.
Auto buff/additional damage/control (darts)/autosigils...
Variability.
I am not participating in testing, even though I only play heretic, I simply have neither the time nor the desire, but judging by what I see here, this idea looks more interesting than what is coming...

#

Perhaps, I definitely only like the reworking of Ara spells... šŸ¤”

lilac yacht
#

I'm struggling to see what the main focus of the identity of heretic is. The flasks give some options to lower mana, a single 1hit KO spell and an AoE spell. But more or less we've already got those skills. Especially with the new 2h update. And the celestial classes seem to focus on charging flasks more quickly, is that so we can spam mana surge flask? With DOF and a 2h weapon I've already got an unlimited mana AOE spell that grants multiple turns? Apart from lowering mana what does this identity give heretic over the other classes?

tawdry solar
#

Weird thing about flask. Heretic ara don't have access to blood flask manaseep so I try to use blood flask infusion, it endup useless šŸ˜‚

Screenshot_2025-02-08-17-20-01-844_orna.com.ornatest.jpg Screenshot_2025-02-08-17-20-05-397_orna.com.ornatest.jpg
lilac yacht
#

I feel like if we're the glass cannon I want to walk in Blazing. Sigils, status effects, all just seem minor effects when I'm going to just 1 HKO with an aoe spell and just spam Ultima.

#

Also compared to something like collateral damage it just seems like a lot of extra clicks for little improvement

dusk crescent
#

compared to avidity, collateral dmg and apex/staying power, mage's identity dont add much value to the class and efficacious is just not useful.

tawdry solar
#

efficacious can be good if we change (buff) it a bit.
I rather remove the flask thingy just to get a efficacious change as a true mage identity that relate to elemental
And for mage identity, sometimes all you need is a bit tweak with equipments. We're all see the 2h buff somehow give mage more benefit than this whole mage identity
You already give scrolls positive ward and manaflask rate, how about give them mana burn instead of read scroll 2 that regen MP? remove entire the flask thingy, it's complicated, and tbh quite useless so far.
Why make thing complicated why some simple change is enough?

clear frost
#

Wait, but you are saying you like the changes to gear, and we are getting that and more

#

Also, I am a bit dissapointed to read that some of the more vocal commenters in the last few hours (not everyone) admitted they didn't have much time to test the changes.

#

Is the issue being brought forward then based on how it feels? How it seems?

tawdry solar
#

LMAO

clear frost
#

What I really came here to ask though is if there have been any consensus on any new suggestions, so that I can add them to the compilation

tawdry solar
#

Did u even read the whole messages or you just say so? There was so many suggestions

clear frost
#

I read through it all but I didn't see anything other tham efficacious needing a buff.
That is in therw already but I can add a note to emphasize

tawdry solar
#

And tbh it's not your job to add the suggestions to complilation, it's the developer job, they will decide what they would do and they will be the one who do it

#

If you are not here to provide something useful, then you can just stay away from the thread but if you do have some idea, please feel free to show your ideas, all i see from you until now is complain about other people opinions and ideas

clear frost
#

Ok then hahaha

#

Trying to help, but I won't if it is not wanted

#

Oh, I think I will add Fux's post in there anyhow. That seemed well thought and there were some agreeing voices

hearty bough
#

I tried to find the summary Phil wrote but couldnā€™t find it lol

#

Fuxs thing was good

clear frost
#

Ah, forgot mobile is a bit annoyimg to do stuff with on threads

#

Will get around to it sometime today when I can be by my desk

daring sand
# clear frost Also, I am a bit dissapointed to read that some of the more vocal commenters in ...

Well. For example, I work. I only have time to play on my way to and from work. I have things to do at home too. I can find time for testing, but it will just be early access to the update, just log in and out. I don't see the point in such "testing". But even so, I see that flasks are apex 2.0. This is not bad in itself, but... Penetrating "resistance" or "wave element" seem to reflect the identity of mages more... The "flask" mechanics would be more suitable for some new class - an alchemist, for example. At the same time, I can't shake the feeling that "flasks" will also turn out to be sigils 2.0, with their waste of moves. It's good that some of them were given a chance for an extra move...
I also understand that my "grumbling" will not change anything globally, so this is just my grumbling on a "sore" topic.

lilac yacht
#

Possibly elemental stormflask could be replaced with something better. AOE burn and rot seems fairly redundant for a class that's meant to be a glass cannon

clear frost
clear frost
brisk salmon
#

Yikes. TLDR. Lot of small complaints

clear frost
#

It was good fun.

brisk salmon
#

Someone did say yesterday something that stuck with me. Letā€™s not get it confused, the thing thatā€™s helping the most to do anguish is actually the 2 handed weapons, not the patch.

clear frost
brisk salmon
#

The identity patch does give a new way to play, that could be built upon, but apex and the others havenā€™t. So maybe not.

clear frost
#

Odie did say the flasks and such are meant to provide options, and later on elaborated and said it is expected that the power level, so to speak, doesn't increase

#

So in that sense, it follows that the 2H update helped a lot more with content since that one was meant to be a buff to them

#

I think some of the options provided by the flasks are very useful, and I also thinl some are not.
One that continues to stick out for me is Banishment Flask. Not a fan of elemental blight either.

#

All of the ones that are free turns feel awesome to use though. Towers are now doable at decent speed which for me is amazing.

#

At al0, mind you

#

With random non event gear šŸ˜‚

errant narwhal
#

Add a ā€œsilentā€ debuff that can't or mute spell/skill when hit šŸ˜…

brisk salmon
#

Yeah. Sadly, the ā€œpower levelā€ of the other classes dramatically increased when they got theirs. His past mistakes still happened. Trying toā€not to do themā€ just means weā€™re gonna get the worst of it by far. Everyone talked avidity, are we forgetting the gross dodge passive? How G Ursa dominated with 2 actually hits per turn, AND counter attack? Deity is just as extreme as always with access to every build in the game. And people still complain. But now he wants to be extremely careful with us? So past mistakes donā€™t repeat? Everything I just mentioned is still liveā€¦

clear frost
#

That is fair

#

And true!

tawdry solar
#

talk about meaning of identity, mage identity shouldn't be "solution"
talk about balance, most people agree that most flasks are very bad rn, i don't see anything count as useful, if you mean it's useful in 1 specific case that rarely happen then idk what's other class identify can be count as

#

I'm just gonna copy my msg from the other discord

mana flask
manaray - the lesser apex eventualus (i think?)
align sigil - useless, only 1 sigil? for what?
sigil flask - only good combo with AVla and the sigils are consumed afte that
repe..something - seem interesting with Ultima 2 or some 3 turn spells, don't know how good it can be, probably me
mana-surge - disappoint AoE, hit 0 for Ang50

For blood flask
blood ray - same as mana ray
blood loss - deal dmg to yourself? to redline? on heretic? we can just quad edge
banishment - a flask just to counter 1 class in game in just 1 mode? We rarely see summon in other mode than PvP
manaseep - a blood flask? btw, doesn't even seem very good

#

all the flask are hardly count as a solution, not to mention some solutions we already have access to

clear frost
# tawdry solar I'm just gonna copy my msg from the other discord mana flask manaray - the less...

Oh dear. So, some clarifications here:

  • Mana ray doesn't miss and has very good M1. We needed this very much.
  • Align sigil allows us to trigger a weakness repeatedly, which charges our flasks faster. It also improves Ultima on demand.
  • Yeah, repetition lets you save up to 10 turns while casting the most powerful spell in the game. It feels pretty good. I encourage you to try it
  • Blood ray can crit, which is relevant for Hera Corvus. Keeps temp buffs going. Also a lot more damage.
    - Bloodloss consumes mana. About 75% of it with a full flask. Makes bluelining a 0-turn endeavor without having to do class swaps.
  • Manaseep allows one to focus on offhand abilities from turn 1. Windtamer shield and now Qat benefit greatly from it.
#

Please go and play with the class. It really shows you haven't.
There are real concerns to discuss, and it is best to not muddy the waters with inaccurate info

#

I 100% agree on Banishment flask though.

lilac yacht
#

Omg I'm glad this guy is here to clarify things

dusk crescent
brisk salmon
tawdry solar
#

i know most of the stuff u write any tested them all ecept the bloodloss thingy

do we need a burn mana flask that need to charge and then take 1 turn to use?

  • In dungeon we can use asteria stance and switch weapon or someone lese mentioned you can just enter dungeon with different class and switch back to heretic with 70% blue line
  • in world raid, you can start raids also at about the same
  • mana ray and blood ray has good m1 and do decent dmg but to what case do you u use it most often? endless? u can't spam them then it just help you last 4-5 more floor
  • repetition seem good but if you lose your t.buff after Ultima, your setup is basically gonna waste
  • about sigil, we're already have follower for that aren't we
clear frost
#

Bloodloss doesn't take 1 turn to charge

#

It is a free turn ability

#

Please, go and try them. Report back.

brisk salmon
#

Like thisā€¦every time we talk about something of the identity patch what do we say? ā€œIt helps a bitā€ā€Situationalā€ ā€œKind of goodā€

How do we talk about the identity patches of other classes? Nah.

#

Once it does liveā€¦nothing will change. And it it does, it will take a year minimum

tawdry solar
# clear frost Bloodloss doesn't take 1 turn to charge

i know and i think u start to take this personal or something with me or my idea but my opinion is flask take long to charge up, i'm pretty sure u can't charge a full flask in 1 turn, and don't provide any new solution

clear frost
#

That is true. Once spent flasks take 2 or 3 turns to charge in non Corvus Hera

tawdry solar
#

if flask mean to be identity, we should make it somehow useful so we should use it few time in long combat and maybe consider use it 1 in short combat

clear frost
#

You do start with some charge, and it is enough to get started using some of these options

brisk salmon
#

Letā€™s be real. The changes have started. Letā€™s not tell odie to go back to step 1. It wonā€™t happen.

tawdry solar
#

i did tested, i was lucky have a mirror character, as i said before, i don't really have time to touch heretic until today but after testing, i was disappointed with how heretic is and how silent this thread was the last few days

brisk salmon
#

We can only modify what we have now

brisk salmon
lilac yacht
#

So for high ang I can get my mana low, and guarantee hit 1 single enemy, what other benefits does this identity provide?

tawdry solar
# brisk salmon We can only modify what we have now

i know we will have stick to flask coz Odie probably spent a lot of time making this and won't restart from beginning, as i said in the conversation before, i just hope we can make some suggestion that make flask somehow useable

acoustic prairie
#

Sorry to butt in as I'm not exactly a heretic expert, but I feel like I should point a few things out as well:

  • Since it's an identity patch, not a power patch - it's not targeted specifically at LVL250 ANG content. Some things help, but some things are also useful at lower tiers/levels

    • An example of this would be the Banishment flask. Might not be useful for lategame players, but it's a great tool in dealing with Charon/Rift Judgement raids, which are especially annoying raids when you don't oneshot them. And that's disregarding the obvious pvp application.

  • The patch is coming out post the 2H update, which features a bunch of powerful AoE abilities. One of which, Despair, which comes from Qatvanga, has very good penetration, with the downside of being Arcane. Efficacious, however, lets heretics punch through that immunity. It's a decent quality of life upgrade over Envy on the Gandring, which has been reported to be annoying on melee players.

    • It's been pointed out that the 2H update is not the identity patch, and as such they should not be considered the solutions that heretic needed, but they shouldn't be considered independant though - since at the very least they build off of each other.

  • Some of the flasks come with a free turn. That makes them, quite literally, free power. Obviously not as strong as DUrsa turn one instant DC, but that's something that we're hoping doesn't happen again. Bloodloss giving an extra turn means instant blueline, and Sigil Stormflask means instant burst with an Ara spell, which is something people have been asking for for a long time (turn-free sigil application)

tawdry solar
#

Or one of my idea was just remove flask and buff efficacious šŸ¤·ā€ā™‚ļø

lilac yacht
#

Just use the HOC to deity flask

tawdry solar
unique gull
#

Idk Ultima 2 repetition flask is gonna be busted cool for Ang 2.0 raids šŸ¤·

brisk salmon
#

What was the balance patch? Remove auto counter?

lilac yacht
#

Didn't we loose the element staking thing too? Wouldn't that have been perfect with the repetition flask?

acoustic prairie
#

The balance part of the patch is the one relating to the:
Stacking of damage multipliers, exponential scaling on ascensions on SS, ward deflation at high AL

unique gull
#

Agreed with Cuong though heretic not getting any cool defensive flasks was disheartening since that's where it lacked most regardless of identity or buffs. Even an energy shield type of ward where it burns mana at a rate vs ward. Give heretics even a smidge of more defensive play and it's good. RS at least had dodge for risky cannons

tawdry solar
brisk salmon
dusk crescent
unique gull
dusk crescent
#

I rather NF do it well one time this time, rather than to wait for them to balance out

acoustic prairie
#

Do refer to #1331673547210358794 message in regards to what odie wants out of the patch - though I'm not sure I need to tell you this, you were all there

paper eagle
#

mirror of big yoshi (5)

brisk salmon
#

And should be ā€œtaken into considerationā€ along the identity patch. Like the 2 handed are not the solution but kinda really see?

If heretic needs more, do it with the balance patch

tawdry solar
#

seem like Odie turned it on

lilac yacht
#

The 2h patch is much more of a buff to heretic than it's Identity

unique gull
#

Heretic squiiiiissssshhhyyy

#

But AV4 will help immensely

lilac yacht
#

Surely T1 aoe crit helps?

brisk salmon
lilac yacht
#

I haven't tried towers

unique gull
#

It helps but without tons of ALs I feel it's still lackluster

#

And if you miss oh boy lol

lilac yacht
#

Yeah good point

#

Yeah

unique gull
#

I think they'll AV4 towers which is still solid now. Basically a better windtamer

acoustic prairie
brisk salmon
#

Very true.

unique gull
brisk salmon
#

Anguish towers is the most difficult content in the game, imo.

unique gull
#

Wasn't saying flat zero. Deity, Gilga, RS, Beo etc all can do some sort of decent Ang towering by then. Heretic is lackluster by far, was just saying AV4 will help

tawdry solar
#

is there an update on charge rate of omniblast? I'm checking the pin and see it charge 1 flask in 4 casts but it doesn't

unique gull
#

Most being higher ALs

clear frost
acoustic prairie
unique gull
#

Again this is before the class balance hits etc

acoustic prairie
#

Yeah - after the balance hits, turn 1 DC won't exist, CS will deal less damage and won't have fixed hit chance. All of those are going to have a very significant impact

unique gull
brisk salmon
#

What Iā€™m afraid of is this general feeling of ā€œitā€™s barely good enoughā€. All the identity patch feels like this. Of doing the absolute minimum to try to contain the ripple effect when it wasnā€™t done before and thatā€™s why the gap is so wide in the game currently. We have dex issues, so letā€™s add a move that works every 4-5 turns that doesnā€™t miss. Thatā€™s bare minimum. The limitations ā€œheretic is a glass cannon onlyā€ when other classes werenā€™t dealt that way. Gilga was never a ā€œdefensive classā€ or deity. Or realm was never ā€œjust a glass cannonā€, a spec is. But heretic, the whole class is just a glass cannon. Iā€™m not talking just about PvP.

Thatā€™s also why we struggle on other content. I thought we would get in this patch a more ā€œexperiencedā€ attempt to bring heretic up to par with the other classes. Especially with a balance and mechanics patch running with it. But what we have is a bit of hesitation and frustration with the power creep.

No significant nerfs to the other classes or big buffs to heretic. And thatā€™s why lots of people might not still play the class again. Itā€™s fun, sure. But useful? Very very debatable.

What would I prefer to see? Less of that ā€œhesitationā€. I donā€™t care for technicalities where itā€™s applied: the identity patch or the balance patch. I donā€™t care. Just close that gap. Stop trying to make heretic ā€œjustā€ a glass cannon. No one else is that restricted. The gap is severe. The gap is also getting more severe with GS, and that class has been historically really hard to balance because of the way it plays. It is extremely OP in certain scenarios and very bad at others.

In the end, a tiny bit wonā€™t do much.

unique gull
#

Give Ara back warrior gear availability mimic

brisk salmon
acoustic prairie
#

I said turn 1 but I guess I meant turn 0 - the issue was mostly with Gilgursa Dursa getting to do it instantly plus getting a free turn

#

Oneturn will still be a thing with quickcast gods of aaru

clear frost
#

Sorry for the achkchually XD

acoustic prairie
#

Yeah brainfart moment lmao

brisk salmon
#

I need to go back and take a look at the balance patch. Iā€™ll be honest, Iā€™ve kind of given up. It bothers me to see that ā€œhesitationā€ now. I wanted it to go live, go to the unfelled tournament and show that nothing changed. But yeah. Thatā€™s also not smart on my end, because weā€™d have to wait another year

#

Some people do like heretic only. Iā€™m very aware that there will be downsides we have to deal with, period. I know. But like this? ā€œJust a glass cannonā€. Nah. lol. Thatā€™s almost an insult.

unique gull
acoustic prairie
#

You'll still spend one turn taking damage

unique gull
#

Everyone is minus Dursa with Barri lol. Using DC anyway

acoustic prairie
#

Doing Dursa Barri and QC Gods of Aaru would be... interesting to watch. What abomination of gear would that require

unique gull
#

I tried explaining that abomination on Deity chat lol. Yes possibly. But man annoying and kinda not worth lol. But this is Heretic I digress

void ridge
unique gull
#

Again AL issues. Gandring helps

void ridge
#

Yes is an AL issue, you just need 150 Als mimic

#

Well, now you need +50 so it's better

unique gull
#

And agreed

#

I still wish they got some more fun outside of Gandring but yeah, heretic chats

clear frost
#

This is a suggestion, feel free to ignore: should a thread be created for balance discussion?

#

Feels like things are going a bit offtopic right now

unique gull
#

Probably not since everyone's had their own balance gripes in other chats

brisk salmon
#

I donā€™t think itā€™s off topic at all. I think theyā€™re both related. Identity? We have one. Flasks. Mission accomplished. Does it help? Does it bring back people? Lot of people saying they kind of donā€™t help. So the issue must be someplace else.

unique gull
#

I stand by giving Ara warrior gear like it had in celestial beta mimic

unique gull
brisk salmon
unique gull
brisk salmon
#

See but thatā€™s my point. Thatā€™s it. Thatā€™s their issue. Look at this thread.

unique gull
#

Jokes aside Gilgas and Deity(myself) were complaining a bunch but stuff was addressed by Odie

#

It's not a big balance patch every class. Odie and NF want it to be a get this out and do it overtime type of thing so we don't have OP Dursa all over again

brisk salmon
#

Meanwhile I got the dreaded ā€œDeal with it. Just a glass cannon. Might want to change classes.ā€

unique gull
#

Each class should have at least one celestial doing something different imo in terms of decent content. Doritos should have more power on towers etc, heretic Ara towers corvus endless etc. the whole class shouldn't be glass cannon or get out

brisk salmon
void ridge
#

The spec Ranger will solve the problem about dex(yes, you need a spec)

brisk salmon
void ridge
#

Not exactly

unique gull
brisk salmon
#

Not exactly? lol. Thatā€™s exactly what it is.

void ridge
#

What I see is that several will stay with DAra honestly

void ridge
unique gull
#

Ranger should be an option not a necessity for classes to hit most things

brisk salmon
#

Dex can be built to the point of also needing firepower. Heretics canā€™t build for dex without losing firepower. Being locked into a spec stops that from happening. Whether itā€™s PvP or PvE. In PvP you go ranger and your ss3 will work, or anything. But magic? Locked to ranger?

unique gull
brisk salmon
#

In pve I need to survive. If I go ranger I canā€™t go DoF.

void ridge
#

Oh right, you don't win turns

#

I see the problem

brisk salmon
#

And yes. 2 hand weapons help. But thatā€™s my issue. None of the things that help are related to this identity patch. Theyā€™re just band aids. All of it. And Iā€™m just tired.

unique gull
#

Heretics have just about no defensive capabilities. Even RS has work around being defensive via dodging and avidity. Heretic is uhhhh yeah

acoustic prairie
#

Of note, regarding dex issues in anguish (which I am aware it's not all that is being discussed), it has been pointed out that Anguish rework is likely to touch on that aspect, so it is not something that might need to be addressed in a class rework

brisk salmon
#

Even the 150 that posted his video, tub, he actually lost that dungeon. He just second chanced. You know how often thatā€™s gonna happen? We canā€™t build to take a hit. Zero options. Relying on mana rush and using it as a ā€œdefensive abilityā€ with no way to lean into it? Idk

unique gull
acoustic prairie
#

That being said, I am also aware you'd rather not leave things up to chance

unique gull
#

Dropping a rework and balance before the entire endgame changes and 1000 more issues arise

brisk salmon
#

I thought that it wouldā€™ve been addressed in this one. That was what I expected at least when I started beta. But it wasnā€™t. And now itā€™s Ang 2.0.

unique gull
brisk salmon
#

Expectations were high. Thatā€™s another problem. Being the last one, expectations were sky high.

brisk salmon
unique gull
#

Oh I agree but it's a future option. Well all be waiting for any type of rework for awhile after Ang 2.0

brisk salmon
#

And thatā€™s why Iā€™ve been talking about Ultima losing restrictions and flasks being usable for AI. Having flasks go up every 4-5 turns is also a pain (talking about the dex), so dex issues will still persist. Iā€™m trying to focus on something that can fix what we have now

terse topaz
brisk salmon
#

Yeah. Weā€™re not ā€œjustā€ complaining. I donā€™t want to do their job for them.

#

Theyā€™re pretty good at this. Iā€™m just seeing them very hesitant.

terse topaz
#

Feels like that's still complaining

clear frost
clear frost
brisk salmon
#

Maybe. Ok. But still I donā€™t like to talk like Iā€™m a game developer. Iā€™m not. Itā€™s not my game. I donā€™t like giving out a Landry list of options so they look over like they canā€™t do their job.

But thatā€™s just the way I operate. The fact that I try to not tell them what to do doesnā€™t mean itā€™s just complaining.

#

Ok.

brisk salmon
clear frost
#

Agree. I did reply to a super old reply of yours. My bad.

brisk salmon
# clear frost Or this

The thing that makes dex oppressive on dorado is the dorado passive. Not the dex. We canā€™t get a dorado passive

clear frost
#

I was trying to say those are examples of offtopic comments

brisk salmon
#

Ahhh yes

#

Lol. And there are a lot of those.

clear frost
#

Yup

terse topaz
#

Feedback is one thing, but we can try to avoid simply being upset about the state of things

clear frost
#

It's ok. And I am not a mod so it is whatever hahaha. I would prefer we keep talking about pain points and such

brisk salmon
#

Sorry. Iā€™m upset. šŸ˜‚ Itā€™s part of life. There is investment. And tbf, Iā€™m not even upset. I just gave up.

clear frost
#

Pretty valid

#

No need to apologize either

brisk salmon
#

All Iā€™m saying is that weā€™re all in this together. Some will say what they want the studio to do. Thatā€™s fine. I think itā€™s overstepping. And some will be perfectly fine waiting another year. Iā€™m not fine with that one bit. lol

clear frost
#

Me either.

#

I am encouraged by progress in the right direction, which I do see here. But it could be I am an outlier.
The polls would make it seem that is the case.

#

I am very eager to test things with my actual character, so I also have that for bias to get the patch out

#

Really, really trying to put all my cards on the table here hahaha

brisk salmon
#

I see dex being an issue and flasks help but just sometimes. Survivability being the biggest issue, which they stated they donā€™t want to address. And the glass cannon mentality, with no way to defend or no way to actually place a hit.

And with counters. Or needing specs to do what the class is apparently ā€œintendedā€ to do.

And yeah. I just donā€™t like the direction it ended up taking and donā€™t understand why it happened now.

#

If weā€™re going the glass cannon route, then we need to go all in. Not halfway or hesitant.

#

And if weā€™re gonna be hesitant, then we shouldnā€™t go the glass cannon route. A glass cannon shouldnā€™t miss because thereā€™s nothing defending. If dorado can dodge for ages, then our passive is mana rush I guess.

#

Which is not enough as presently made

#

Lol. Iā€™ve seen dorados max out both their dodge chance and their avidity. You know how INSANE that is? Meanwhile, heretics still go off topic.

#

And not just dorados. Sorry. Not picking on them but that is pretty wild

#

Ok. Rant over. Back to my cave. For a while

unique gull
# clear frost I was trying to say those are examples of offtopic comments

Wasn't really off topic, someone mentioned heretic hitting things and being defensive as well likely RS (which isn't in RS yes I know), and the Ara getting warrior gear was sarcasm but not at the same time. Corvus being theifish class gets their gear, Ara getting warrior gear would be specifically for that. Either class can't have the other. Not sure how it was off topic still since it regards heretics defensive capabilities but I digress sorry

clear frost
#

You are saying that Deity Ara getting access to warrior gear is in topic with "Heretic Identity Patch"?

#

Or maybe it was sarcasm and it went over my head.

unique gull
#

Diety Ara has warrior gear lol

#

Identity no, but would would help with defensive issues that some suggest

clear frost
unique gull
brisk salmon
#

The defensive capabilities have to be thought out in the way that Odie wants them to be. Glass cannon šŸ¤® So I think it should be mana rush. Pay mana to not die. No limit. Guaranteed mana rush. As long as I have mana, I canā€™t die. Price 1k-2k per use. Thatā€™s thinking about balance too, the most hard hitting builds, use up mana faster. And the most defensive, have high mana pools.

lilac yacht
#

In a turn based game glass cannon needs to be able to survive the enemies turn

#

Other nuke everything everytime

brisk salmon
#

And we donā€™t get anything defensively. Makes hard hitting builds a bit more viable too. Since itā€™s anyways the only way we can hit these tanks. For pveā€¦.not sure how that would work. That might need more thinking. Cause I can see issues with pve in spots

#

Does it help with dex? Not really. But at least you get a full powered Chakram so you can look at many zeroes

tawdry solar
#

I'm a bit confuse about the goal of this thread now. Like to balance flask? Is having flask is fixed now? Can we suggest new identity?

brisk salmon
#

Who am I to say what the goal is. Goal is to get heretic to be engaging and able to do content with consistency.

#

Suggesting a new identity is overkill. He chose flaks. Thatā€™s what weā€™re getting. Again, just my thoughts. But to say ā€œyeah letā€™s not do flasksā€ isā€¦probably not possible. I do like them in a way

tawdry solar
#

I hope Odie answer that question because i don't really want to waste time for something "off-topic"

brisk salmon
#

Lol. What question? ā€œAre you willing to throw away the last 6 months of work and do it all over?ā€ Iā€™d kick you out the channel šŸ˜‚šŸ˜‚šŸ˜‚ (kidding)

lilac yacht
#

What about if that 100%accuracy one was aoe?

tawdry solar
brisk salmon
#

What was the charge rate on flasks? Without a scroll?

hearty bough
brisk salmon
#

Shouldā€™ve saved that picture

tawdry solar
brisk salmon
brisk salmon
#

Weā€™re still atrocious

tawdry solar
brisk salmon
#

Yeah. In my mind I was thinking about horde dungeons. Aoe. For efficiency, we wouldnā€™t be trying to target weaknesses. It would be the base rate of charge.

tawdry solar
#

no weakness or resist:
single element 8 turns
omnimancy 2 element 5 turn
with weakness
omnimancy 4 turns (you get a bit more than 1 charge)
single element 4 turns
Seem like resist doesn't lower the charge

hearty bough
unique gull
#

I don't see why Heretics cant get a ward recovery flask or defensive buff flask, kind of like Barri but making it different somehow. Like sacrificing mana or HP to get t3 all in defense or res etc. I know it's close to apex at that point but apex itself is supposed to be a limit breaker but it's not so why can't flasks have different options minus damage damage damage and manaseep

brisk salmon
#

Because weā€™re made of glassmighty_mimic

unique gull
#

Like A wall flask where when used you get 10% ward recovery for so many turns

#

Idk options lol

brisk salmon
#

Wait.

unique gull
brisk salmon
unique gull
# brisk salmon How would that help?

Well when you get hit and lose all your ward or it activates on use instead of having to woO and worrying about stone doggo next turn to upkeep

#

Plus Regen. Idk I'm tossing out ideas lol

tawdry solar
#

the cactus is weird, when i hit it with ice storm, it show as resist dmg but when i hit it with water, it show as normal damage

scarlet pawn
#

Change Iconoclast where high Mana = higher Def/Res, lower Att/Mag/Dex and low Mana = the opposite, similar to Bastille.

Allows us to survive during the start of battle (maybe) and then Bloodloss/Manaseep into glass cannon mode when we're set up. We can lean into max or minimal mana builds.

lilac yacht
#

@scarlet pawn good idea

unique gull
hearty bough
lilac yacht
#

And if we had a mana refill flask with something else on top like t Def ,it would be like buffing for a.heavy fight

hearty bough
#

I wonder if adding more flasks after the class is re-released is an option. Is it a tool kit that keeps expanding or a one and done deal?

brisk salmon
brisk salmon
unique gull
hearty bough
#

If the toolkit is said to continue to expand then i think most people would be mollified. Its the fear that heretics identity wouldnā€™t change (as the weakest class lets be real that thatā€™s the real identity lol) that causes all the complaints. We need some hope that things have the chance to improve in live play

unique gull
#

But agreed

#

Like if heretic had any more defensive stuff I'd probably HoC just because it looks more fun with flask vs other classes stuff (I started as heretic). But without insane ALs it's just not feasible to achieve the same thing as others.

lilac yacht
#

Unlockable event flasks. Like a petrified one from medusa

scarlet pawn
unique gull
#

Glass cannon in ang2.0 just doesn't sound appealing when death is basically guaranteed if you miss, which heretics often do

hearty bough
# unique gull ALs are the toolkit šŸ¤£, more or less making it manageable and bearable for lower...

I think itā€™s a problem as a low al if al is the way out xd
Note if i were high al then thatā€™d be a different story.
I think odie alluded to the fact that he would look at the numbers in live play to make further judgement calls about power. Guess the question is are we currently satisfied with the mechanics of the flask? Which i have seen many people comment that they enjoy the gameplay if not the outcomes of it in a fight (which is a power issue)

hearty bough
unique gull
unique gull
lilac yacht
#

Ptwflasks

unique gull
lilac yacht
#

Now we're talking odie

#

9 quid. T1 DC flask

unique gull
#

Odie ignore this crazy person

#

Cosmetic flasks only

hearty bough
#

Flasks like summons .. we need to wait until the ā€˜bugganeā€™ is released

#

Or the ancient dragon hehe.. very bad comparisons ik

tawdry solar
#

I just try repetition flask in raids
My first impression is it's feel much worst than weaved elemental
Take ~11 turns to charge 3 flask (we start with almost 1 flask)
take the same time to buff thing up, the 3 flask Ultima 2 just doesn't feel that good, and tbh, not many raid can survive that many Ultima 2

unique gull
#

Which doesn't help the case here.

tawdry solar
lilac yacht
#

For raiding. I actually liked weaved elements

unique gull
hearty bough
#

Do all three variations of Mague excel in different content? Iā€™d love that to be the case so i donā€™t have to touch another class again.

tawdry solar
#

If comparing to the old passive is off topic, we can just compare with normal Ultima 2, take 5 turns for a flask so we can cast a 3 turns spell in 1 turn, that's the worst trade ever

unique gull
hearty bough
#

I really just wanna use Mague only xd

unique gull
#

Base can do it all, corvus for endless and hordes?, and Ara for raids but it's not ridiculously distinct like say Dara for hordes, Base for raids, and Dursa for towers and some hordes

#

I mean well I guess they each have their own but nothing really towers wise I'd say?

urban delta
#

Corvus or base Heretic for towers IMO

hearty bough
#

OK Iā€™m mollified xd

urban delta
#

I use Corvus on live but that's mostly for thief gear access

unique gull
#

Ara feels like it's so far out in left field until Other Realms show up

brisk salmon
hearty bough
lilac yacht
#

But we shouldn't rely on a half finished class

brisk salmon
#

Agreed

#

And sounds bad coming from me. I was the one that first gave up.

lilac yacht
#

TBF I have up a while ago too

#

Gave

hearty bough
#

Iā€™m expecting maybe one or two small tweaks that would make people a bit happy then test ig, look at statistics, maybe change more.. thatā€™s what id do. But i definitely do not need an overbuffed class released that i know will get nerfed in a few weeks to months

lilac yacht
#

Id like a class equivalent to the others

brisk salmon
#

Yup

hearty bough
lilac yacht
#

Deity absolutely smashing it RN

hearty bough
#

Power wise?

#

Oh i see xd

#

Then just nerf deity a bit haha

brisk salmon
#

#PaidManaRush #FreeUltima

hearty bough
#

They already expect it subconsciously right

tawdry solar
#

Not trying to blame here but throw too many thing same at once really make the heretic feedback go slower
People are more busy trying to test other cool stuff before put their hand on heretic. After the 2h patch release, this thread go dormant for like 2-3 days.
Studio should plan this better

hearty bough
lilac yacht
#

Heretic should have been done ages ago.

#

Arch paths and weddings or whatever nonsense coming before

hearty bough
#

What would you guys think of giving heretic a corrupted version of Ultima that benefits from flasks somehow? Iā€™m throwing pebbles now lol

terse topaz
terse topaz
hearty bough
urban delta
tawdry solar
#

I want more omnimancy spells with 4 secondary elements

clear frost
tawdry solar
#

the spell with both holy and dark is gonna be nut

hearty bough
#

I was just reading in general chat about how, in the lore, the deity created Ultimaā€¦ but letā€™s be realā€”Mague is the Warlock of Apollyon. You think heā€™d just sit back and let the ultimate spell belong to someone else? No chance. He corrupted it. Twisting the raw power of Ultima into somethingā€¦ different. Darker. More unstable. A forbidden mirror of the original.

Imagine itā€”an Ultima variant, but warped by Magueā€™s touch. Same devastating potential, but unpredictable, recklessā€”dangerous even to its caster. What do you think? Would the risk be worth the power?
urban delta
#

If looking for last minute tweaks to improve experienceļ¼ŒI'd start with working inside the framework we have:

-Flasks are set
-Efficacious
-Heretic is a glass cannon

New omnimancy spells don't necessarily break that mold so seems fine

#

Konq said he would like Efficacious to get a bit more love already

clear frost
#

Irrelevant question: I imagine I am out of the loop on this but I see people saying "mague" a lot. Why?

hearty bough
tawdry solar
hearty bough
clear frost
#

Why is the build not viable by the way?

#

I won't say no to a buff though. Casting omniblast deals damage, but very little.

#

Getting a higher amount of charge when using regular elemental spells would be nice

#

For HCorvus in particular, casting a spell that can't crit does hurt

hearty bough
#

One day i will understand the technicalities of my favorite class but today is not that day xd

clear frost
#

Something that I somehow hadn't thought of but that is quite neat:

Screenshot_20250208_125425_Orna_BETA.jpg
#

Manaflask infusion at work

#

They stay like that after being emptied, too

#

That lets me cast 7 Ultima II in a row hahaha

#

The first two flasks charge up after the other 5 are emptied

#

Possibly more casts with Lotan

scarlet pawn
#

Which is why flask abilities should at least be selectable so Ara could use Bloodflasks after Bloodflask Infusions. Otherwise, the only "benefit" here is giving up important Bloodflask abilities and only while playing Corvus/Base.

thorn grove
scarlet pawn
#

Each class would still start with 2 Blood, 3 Mana, etc. as already implemented but Infusions would essentially allow mid-battle changes there. Add a few more manaflask and bloodflask effects so there are options for which flasks to bring for the content we'll engage with.

This would mean all flasks are available and you select the 3 manaflasks and 2 bloodflasks you want to use. Reduce total flask quantity by 1, if need be. I just don't understand why the entire classline can use Aligned Sigilflask but suddenly base and Corvus can't.

clear frost
#

I would like that also. Selectable flasks.

#

Even a middleground of "some selectable, some signature (class locked)"

scarlet pawn
clear frost
#

Right. I believe for Nekro that is more of an OH Sh* button

waxen furnace
#

assuming the feature set of heretic is not going to ship first thing monday, its worth having those who havent tested in beta yet but are offering feedback here to try and get a mirror and see how it feels

clear frost
#

And/or to ship it but keep the thread open here for tweaks

#

Saying that because I think these threads are usually locked on release

#

Maybe opening a different thread with a link to this achieves the same. The spirit of what I am suggesting is to keep a semi-official or ORN-sanctioned channel of communications open

hearty bough
#

During live i mean

#

Welp, now we wait for the heavy hitters to come out of hiding for their two cents :/

#

We talked a heck of a lot so there should be some comments at least right?

scarlet pawn
#

Uhh... They already did...

hearty bough
#

Whereā€™s dad though?

waxen furnace
#

so unless you are really happy with how they are today, I still think this is the best opportunity

#

im not saying "buff" heretic. Im saying "can flasks be different?"

hearty bough
#

Can they?

waxen furnace
#

what is your expectation 4-6months from now about being able to get another patch it in to change flasks if you are not satisfied

waxen furnace
#

is it set in stone?

hearty bough
#

Seems like thereā€™s a huge range of attitudes here and too many opinions.

#

Even mine

#

So i guess Iā€™ll go back to lurking and waiting. Like i said i have no time for beta now and it doesnā€™t feel good that itā€™s not progress i can keep

clear frost
#

But to answer your question: even though I am not fully satisfied and would like some of the suggestions realized (particularly so improving efficacious and making flasks selectable or more widely applicable), I would choose shipping now over waiting longer

waxen furnace
#

im "not a heretic" but ive always played multiple classes....though less these days with high ascension

#

i almost ignored flasks entirely during my testing

#

it didnt feel compelled to use them outside small niche scenarios

#

unlike Gilga which im 100% maxing CD, or avidity

#

and with Diety you almost always have a reason to manage apex and utilize eventualis

#

that was my big take away

#

i can do all this content without using flasks at all

lilac yacht
#

Because it doesn't offer anything new

hearty bough
#

Sounds frustrating

void ridge
waxen furnace
#

again i can be happy playing diety realm or gilga generally. so im okay but im trying to lookout for heretic players that want their class to be fun and better than it is now

waxen furnace
#

hence i am entitled to treat flasks in the same manner

lilac yacht
#

I would have preferred a more passive feature. Flaskes are basically rehashed skills we already have.

waxen furnace
#

you could have both

void ridge
#

That's what I was trying to say mimic

waxen furnace
#

simplified weaved elements passive for omnimancy + flasks toolkit

#

(im baking some assumptions into that first half)

#

i really hope these hundreds of messages in this thread arent just yelling into the void

sudden folio
#

i say package and ship the balance patch and heretic rework on Monday.
I got data to feed and meta to find.

waxen furnace
#

or all this effort will feel wasted šŸ˜„

hearty bough
#

Hey itā€™s my mentor

waxen furnace
hearty bough
#

Thoughts on this?

IMG_0957.png
sudden folio
#

"Fuck it, well do it live. Fucking thing sucks!" as they say

clear frost
#

yeah, right there with @urban delta . I believe @dusk osprey expressed a similar sentiment about Efficacious in particular

#

and I was parroting some of it back, in here: #1331673547210358794 message

#

Though to @waxen furnace point - I would be elated to not have to choose between those

hearty bough
#

As for me i want a flask related skill

#

Something new

clear frost
#

And to perhaps explain a bit more about why, this is a summary of how I feel right now playing Heretic live: #1331673547210358794 message

lilac yacht
#

Flasks should be offering new skills unavailable to other classes. For example like collateral damage was when it came out.

When DOF came out RS complained because it was taking their identity. Our whole identity is based on already available skills

clear frost
#

The features are what they are, but going from having them to not really shows, to me, that they improve my gameplay loop simply because I miss having them

#

That is only partially true, right? Repetition flasks, banishment flask (which I will again say I don't like), alignment flask (ele seals are not available to players) have no counterparts

#

Having a 0-turn AoE is also pretty unique

#

Manasurge flask is not great in that it deals a small amount of damage only, but no one else has it

#

Eleblight flask (which I also don't like) has the unique property of applying status effects that ignore immunities to those status effects. Nothing in the game can do that.

hearty bough
#

I just realized warlock is = witch. Witches brew concoctions.. mague is warlock of apollyon v:

lilac yacht
daring sand
#

What if all or almost all flasks are charged from the very beginning? It seems logical that "we" are preparing for battle, and not "cooking" consumables in the process... šŸ¤”

clear frost
#

More charge to start would also be a nice QoL improvement

#

With the exception of banishment flask, none of them turn the tide so hard that they shouldn't be available from the get-go IMO

hearty bough
clear frost
#

Bloodloss might be the standout there in terms of power, but it is only in the offensive which matches the glass cannon vibes

daring sand
#

The starting charge can "cut off" the problem of wasting time on charging. We will have a ready-made tool in our hands to solve the problem here and now, instead of "surviving" waiting for the charge. For balance, we can introduce a limitation that the starting charge only works until the first use in the dungeon and does not renew with a change of floor.

clear frost
#

yeah, the more I think about it, the more I like it

clear frost
#

meaning that charge you accumulate or spend on floor 1 will be in the same state on floor 2

#

but it would be big in dungeons still because buffing is dangerous, especially so when you are (out)matched. It could even be said it is a defensive improvement since having iconoclast be at a high % boosts your def/res by a bit

daring sand
clear frost
#

yeah, agreed

#

I was just saying that if things stay the same as they are right now, the amount of charge we start with would not affect how much carries over to subsequent floors

#

so was just trying to say that your idea requires no additional dev effort, which is good! šŸ‘

daring sand
#

Developing the idea. As I understand it, we are given 5 flasks. (judging by the posts). 5 identical or 3+2 different types.
If we don't make 100% charge for everyone, then how about 3/2+1 charged from the start?
We will have something to charge, we will have something to use. Balance.

#

In future balance patches the quantity can be changed depending on the results/feedback obtained.

terse topaz
clear frost
#

You had. And thanks for pointing that out. Reminds me to update the suggestion list

terse topaz
#

Oh no I meant I just added it

clear frost
#

oh lol, gotcha

#

I will go ahead and add your post to the list in any case

terse topaz
#

We can compile all suggestions into one list if we want, I'm keeping my own for now since we have a lot of scattered discussions atm

clear frost
#

yeah, either or, let me finish and I'll repost. We can go from there formatting wise.

#

Suggestion compilation:

  • On efficacious: #1331673547210358794 message and #1331673547210358794 message
  • On Base Hera not having a niche: #1331673547210358794 message
  • General topics post-tweaks, including starting flask charge, omnimancy of higher tiers/all elements, flask charge speed, and others:
    #1331673547210358794 message
  • Some flasks are similar to other skills that already exist. More unique effects should be part of the mage class line toolkit. Some suggestions here: #1331673547210358794 message

Addressed:

  • Heretic stat diversity. Post pinned with last differentiated values between celestial classes.
  • Flasks were improved by making some of them cost 0 turns (give an additional turn). This didn't address all the feedback, but newer posts have more relevant info.
  • Scrolls now give ward. A decent amount. The offhand ability is still read mana so not all feedback was addressed.
#

This is what I have

#

I like your format better @terse topaz , but I think I would run out of characters

#

feel free to grab anything from here. We can then bug the mods to unpin my posts and pin yours.

scarlet pawn
#

Ideas for unique/useful (?) flask abilities. Not sure how to balance turn cost with them so I did not include that.

  • Spellbinding / Mana-Seal Flask (M):

Disables the target's most recently used skill/spell. Temporary; Standard attacks and follower actions are unaffected.

  • Sanguine / Blood-Rite Flask (B):

Deals X% of max HP as self-damage; Removes all debuffs/status ailments and transfers them to target, ignoring immunites. Status Protection% from gear/Steadfast still apply.

  • Inversion / Blood-Change Flask (B):

Switches the target's Att/Mag (alternatively, Def/Res) values. Temporary.

  • Succession / Mana-Chain Flask (M):

Your selected spell and the next listed spell are cast one after the other. Temporary; The follow-up spell can be at half damage/proc rate/whatever for the sake of balance.

  • Ouroboros / Mana-Font Flask (M):

Mana spent is used to restore Ward. Permanent.

  • Nosferatu / Blood-Drain Flask (B):

X% of damage dealt to the target is used to restore Ward and/or HP. Temporary.

  • Mercurial / Mana-Flow Flask (M):

Grants T. Dexā†‘ā†‘ā†‘ + chance of Quickcast and/or Doublecast for subsequent spells. Temporary.

  • Usurper / Mana-Seize Flask (M):

Adds X% of the target's Att or Mag (whichever is highest) to your Mag, then targets their Def or Res (whichever is lowest) when calculating damage. Adjusts element if a sigil is present, non-elemental otherwise.

clear frost
#

I really like all of those