#Heretic Identity Patch Discussion

1 messages · Page 2 of 1

waxen furnace
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Critical chain is a bad passive you don’t want it kekw

west knoll
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I mean, lost helmet, mighty mimic head, questing weapons, a good FYC are still solid items that I still regularly use as a tier 11

west knoll
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Hmmmm so doing some beta testing and I’m not sure where ill use base heretic anymore, seems ara or Corvus with a ruby will do just as well, thoughts yall?

hard bay
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The only time I'm using base in the beta is to run elemental AoE with A. Qatvanga since it has manaseep flask and efficacious for immunes. I'd love to see base's identity be a true elementalist and for this reason I believe the aligned sigil flask would be very good here.

hasty heath
clear frost
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It is very weird Base Hera only has elementless options. I agree that it would be good for base Hera to have aligned sigil

marble prairie
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Hey i think that nature-call flask and nekromancer should scale stats with the player pet. By doing this, these 2 skills will be alot more useful in battle than just be a meat shield

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Also by making it scale with the player pet, they wont be too op or useless in battle

terse topaz
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I wish Ara had life siphon and the downside of Ara was not mainly that

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Give base Heretic something a little more special instead. Something like a better ability than efficacious; a fixed weaved elements; the old weaved elements so raiding is easier up to 245

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Anything, really

clear frost
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If it did then there would really be no reason to use Base Hera. At least as things are right now

terse topaz
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Yeah I want a different downside

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Like people said, put on rubies and you're bypassing it. Life siphon is very impactful and "fixing" it requires event gear

clear frost
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I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss Efficacious either. With enough mag eventually it should let us clear dungeons with stuff like despair without worrying about immunities

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That will be something very unique

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Granted, swansong now exists but a lot of people aren't going to get a good one for a good while

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If ever

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I legitimately think that a touch up to Base Hera flasks would make it much more enticing to use

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Hera Ara already is good to use IMHO

dusk crescent
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Efficacious as you mentioned is perhaps only ever useful at despair/elemental AoE. Otherwise, I really see not much use for it

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I really hope Efficacious could be replaced or rework to be more universal and useful in all content, rather than in such niche cases

clear frost
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To clarify:

  • I am in agreement that Base Hera is not in a good place right now. Since the previously stated intent for Celestial Classes is for them to be side-grades, this is a problem that needs fixing.
  • I believe that Base Hera can carve a niche for itself by having better flasks; personally, I would use the class if it traded away one of its current flasks for Elemental Sigil Flask
  • I believe Hera Ara is good to very good; and thus I don't believe it needs more power given to it, and I believe granting it Life Siphon would do just that.
  • I see a use for Efficacious and would like it to stay. Hordes, though technically a niche, are not a small one. Access to AoE that is not subject to immunities touches on Horde Dungeons, Towers, and Monuments. I believe this content constitutes the majority of most players' game-loop
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On base Hera flasks and considering that Aligned sigilflask is a manaflask currently, I would personally would be most willing to give up Mana Surge flask

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Repetition Flask and Mana Ray flask are too important

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Of course, I still think that Banishment Flask is extremely niche and would gladly do away with it without a second thought.

terse topaz
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Stat changes, as someone mentioned earlier in the thread, wouod be nice. Seems criminal that the singular stat difference between all the heretic variants is that Ara has 1.1x mag

clear frost
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yes, 100% agreed

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Konq's chart illustrates this very well

terse topaz
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Mages may be known for being squishy, but they are also known for versatility

clear frost
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For reference: #1331673547210358794 message

terse topaz
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The flasks help that fantasy, but it would be cool to have some kind of deeper variation in primary stats/abilities

hard bay
rancid kernel
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I made a (although low res lol) video of my mirror running base hera on a horde dungeon just to see what I could do

hard bay
rancid kernel
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On live I'm AL1, so I pumped it up to 9 on beta

clear frost
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very cool. It might be a good idea to use manaseep flask on this build

rancid kernel
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Oh right for the mana burn

clear frost
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but yeah, even with these numbers it would mean you would reliably OHKO anything if you were wearing an Aaru robe for instance

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couple that with ok-good FSS and Aaru Hood and it probably can get into decent angL territory without too much more hassle

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and if one is doing anguish then might as well put in two trev charms

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the issue would be, as always, with making sure you don't miss hahahaha

tight adder
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two trev charms, zwei fencer, sky boots, menja hood and heretic robe , arisen qatvanga, go crazy :v

clear frost
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as is often the case, Oracle >>> Zwei

tight adder
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if you have the amities

clear frost
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sure

tight adder
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also you can use Mortars to have +2 DoubleHand damage

dusk osprey
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yeah if you're using 2H Manaseep is a definite grab

rancid kernel
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I did a 2nd unrecorded run, when I hit the 125% from base+maji that was slapping pretty hard

errant narwhal
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But it's a wonder it takes a little extra dex to compete with other classes in content anguish

hard bay
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(AL 44 though)

clear frost
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yeah, I can believe it

rancid kernel
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I would have been so dead when I slipped up on that ward loss in front of those Immortals with anguish. So this is with two A Tryvs and manaseep

dusk osprey
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alright Heretics, I think it's more than time for some polls regarding our actual class - any thoughts on anything specific I should poll on?

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on top of "Heretic as a class can do X content comfortably, agree/disagree", I think stuff like "Heretic/Heretic Ara/Heretic Corvus is in a good spot right now, agree/disagree"

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understandably, not all celestials will be good at each piece of content, but I think at least one should be good at just about everything

tight adder
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That depends if the studio is planning on making any changes

dusk osprey
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I mean, we're in beta testing, I imagine yes

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that is the point

tight adder
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Mostly wondering if like today or tomorrow some tweaks which might cause the poll to be inaccurate but sure post the poll, I'll vote

waxen furnace
dusk osprey
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Content areas:
I, as Heretic (or any celestials) can do ___ content comfortably (post-patch, ofc):

  • Raiding
  • Horde Dungeons
  • Endless Dungeons
  • Anguish Dungeons
  • PvP (ALs)
  • PvP (non ALs)
  • Towers
  • Anguish Towers

Celestials:
I believe ___ is in a good state right now, relative to both other classes and the other Heretic celestials:

  • Heretic
  • Heretic Ara
  • Heretic Corvus

Flasks:

  • I believe flasks give Heretics and the mage line a solid identity.
  • Flasks are at a ___ point balance-wise
  • I believe Efficacious is a useful passive/is in a good state.
  • I am happy/sad that the Weaved Elements passive is now only on Omni Antlia and Spellweaver instead of all magic classes.
  • Scrolls, now that they give flask rate increases, are in a good state.
  • I believe some flasks should take (effectively) 0 turns to cast.
terse topaz
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Poll suggestions

  • flasks requiring a turn vs free turns
  • Heretic identity feeling fleshed out/complete
  • Efficacious feeling useful
  • how we feel about Weaved elements being removed
  • Celestials feeling different from base/base having its own niche
  • Scrolls being useful or not
  • pvp perrformance in beta
dusk osprey
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I'll add some of those to my list here

dusk osprey
clear frost
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Can we add something specifically about Banishment Flask?

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I've noted elsewhere it is very good at what it does which is counter summoners. I just don't think that warrants a spot on both Base Hera and Hera Ara (or in either if I have my own way). It's too specific in my opinion

dusk osprey
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I think if the responses on Flasks being in a ___ point ends in a negative way, I'll go on a per-flask basis

trail marsh
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Shhh if flasks can be used in pvp, I want that flask. Lol

clear frost
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they can be used in PvP. Anyways, that's what the poll would be for

trail marsh
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Choosing what flasks you want would be ideal though. Idk how the ai would decide a flask, seems like it could have some complications involved

clear frost
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oh...that reminds me that we should push for the AI using flasks; as best as I can tell, it currently does not

waxen furnace
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so AI doesnt have as many bad choices

dusk osprey
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pop that in #1331674674425233601 methinks

clear frost
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will do first chance

dusk osprey
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Odie said earlier that it should be working, if it isn't, it's a bug

clear frost
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7ish hours from now, most likely

clear frost
dusk osprey
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do double check that that's still the case now, though

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e.g. record a video

clear frost
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of course

dusk osprey
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maybe a generic poll question about PvP Flask implementation?

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  • I think AI should not be able to use flasks.
  • I think AI should be able to use all flasks.
  • I think AI should only be able to use some flasks I choose.
clear frost
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Yes. That would be a good idea because even if the AI started using flasks, I imagine it would be almost completely random

dusk osprey
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yeah it can be arguably detrimental for some AI if you don't want them using flasks (contextually useless flask or another big damage spell?)

clear frost
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None of the AI settings seem to be directly related to the function of any of the flasks, funnily enough

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it's not a buff, it's not a debuff, it is not ward related

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so it would fall into the "Default" setting, right?

dusk osprey
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they might be labelled as whatever they do (e.g. Sigilflask = debuff)

clear frost
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oh, fair. I was not considering the sigil flasks. Fair, those ones would probably fall into the saboteur setting

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not sure what would prompt the AI to use, say, Bloodloss

terse topaz
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Realistically flasks should be a loadout thing

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Under spells, there should just be a separate category under the total spell slots we have that lists which flasks are enabled/disabled

dusk osprey
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I would 100% sacrifice spell slots for flasks in PvP-based settings

clear frost
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same

waxen furnace
clear frost
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with weaved elements gone, we are back to mostly not needing our 16-17 slots

dusk osprey
waxen furnace
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they are all effectively new skills for heretic. might be suitable to ask opinion for each new skill. People may enjoy flasks over all which would obscure if 1-2 are low performers

terse topaz
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Just put the flask selection below the spells

Screenshot_20250127_133804_Orna.jpg
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No interaction with spell slots

west knoll
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On the efficacious 2, does it penetrate resistances? If we can penetrate and immunity feels like we should do the same to a resistance

clear frost
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that would be great but it is often a good idea to try to consider the path of least resistance because that makes it easier for NF to implement things

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it does not interact with resistances at the moment

dusk osprey
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oh, extra poll for Ara skills?

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I know it'll be mostly positive but good to check

west knoll
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Sure

clear frost
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yeah, good to check

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I am pretty happy with new Ara skills

dusk osprey
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polls are for feedback not necessarily hotter topics

clear frost
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they all feel useful

terse topaz
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Flasks do not seem to be considered spells at the moment, so I don't feel like adding them to the spell list is easy/a good idea

west knoll
clear frost
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(except 1, but that's ok)

clear frost
west knoll
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Fair

clear frost
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it would be very nice though

terse topaz
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So now immunities are 25%

west knoll
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Exactly so resistances should be 75%

dusk osprey
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yeah 0x and 0.5x, efficacious makes it 0.25x/0.5x

clear frost
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that presumes a lot about implementation

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we don't know how the code really works

west knoll
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Also true

dusk osprey
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there is already an amity that does this so I assume code for this works

terse topaz
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I'm not referencing code

clear frost
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what I mean is turning immunity into resistance could very well be new code

terse topaz
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Putting resistances at 75% is a strong enough effect that an amity exists for it already

clear frost
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but anyway, that's besides the point. It's still worth asking. Worth a shot as they say

west knoll
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Just seems like a point that’s been missed I think this would make efficacious a little better without being to crazy

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Currently still feels a little lack luster

clear frost
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I agree

dusk osprey
terse topaz
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My guess is that resistances at 75% by default would make resistances feel useless

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On the other hand, elemental damage has always felt that way until now

clear frost
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like, for people facing heretics in combat? Or...

west knoll
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Only when going against heretics which is the point, we are nOw the resistance/immunity piercers

clear frost
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who's using elemental spells in PvP right now?

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I have seen 0 people using them

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it's all scythes and Ultimas and weapon skills

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and elementless stuff, I suppose

west knoll
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True

terse topaz
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Maybe 60% would be fair, 75% feels like a lot

clear frost
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I will try not to get too into the bushes without that. Ultimately it seems we feel it's a good idea. Details can come later

dusk osprey
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I mean, what is the max amity value? 80%?

terse topaz
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Wait I just realized, efficacious means pvp vs opposing heretics and deities is a bit nicer now pre-ultima

dusk osprey
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What is the downside to making it 75%?

clear frost
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Side note though - if we do go that route and we want to get spicy, could we ask for that amity to become a bonus to resistance piercing as opposed to setting the value to 80%?

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Opens up paths for new gear, and maes that amity more useful to heretics

west knoll
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Hmmmmm I think that might be too much but I see the value

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Would be better for us than others no?

terse topaz
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75% seems strong is all. Basically means we kinda ignore all resistance

clear frost
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yeah, I realize it might be too much

dusk osprey
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What usecases would 75% be strong?

tight adder
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make efficacious damage purple

west knoll
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I like that

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Show a distinction

dusk osprey
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in any instance, we already have elementless (or effectively elementless) skills that carry that space

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Ultima, Mage's Dance, AV2, soon AV4 & Swansong

west knoll
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In the line of elemental ideas I also think base heretic flasks need a little love like the elemental sigils

tight adder
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Konq, can you add the "how sigils work" to the poll ?

dusk osprey
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would it really be bad to offer those alternatives?

tight adder
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or it can be considered in any of the other options?

terse topaz
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75% on resist means ultima is stronger, means resist amities are weaker vs ultima, means deities have even less safety vs heretics

clear frost
dusk osprey
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Ultima already has 1x on resists and immunities

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it will not be effected

terse topaz
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Wdym? I don't know how it works

clear frost
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Here @west knoll : #1331673547210358794 message

tight adder
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Elemental sigil flask (rot, para, frozen, burn) currently works good (i think it needs to apply the 4 statuses if full flask)

west knoll
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Yeah really only changes other elemental spells

west knoll
terse topaz
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Resistances apply to ultima, right? How is ultima unaffected

west knoll
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Nope

dusk osprey
clear frost
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no they don't apply to Ultima at all

thin stone
dusk osprey
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I forgor the middle ones

dense birch
clear frost
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I think that is Holy?

terse topaz
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So when ultima shows "RESIST" it's just straight up lying

clear frost
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yes

west knoll
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Yep

dusk osprey
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right, this would enable Brilliant Lights II and Despair AoEs to be more fruitful

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among other things

west knoll
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I agree it’s good to have more options

dusk osprey
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so, my question stands... what cases would 75% resist be bad?

thin stone
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resists in terms of stuff like elemental def, elemental armor enchantment, immunities like facades and class passives.

it does care about "resists" in terms of amity "less damage taken from X element" effects. those drastically weaken ultima damage, but is only relevant in pvp until enemies show up with those effects.

terse topaz
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Yeah I knew that part, which is why I assumed the rest worked too lol

dense birch
terse topaz
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Fun

dusk osprey
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Brilliant Lights II is new, but I imagine it's holy like it's older sibling

thin stone
dusk osprey
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oh wait it might not be holy

terse topaz
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Well at any rate, pre-Ultima the best default pvp choice was AV2 because the critseals could run into immune heretics/deities

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Or scythe/chakram from corvus

dense birch
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I remember that clip someone shared, rs and lotan didn't resist it

dusk osprey
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nobody has a Trevor staff to test any of these things 😭

terse topaz
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With 75% resist critseals probably take over handily

dense birch
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Need to find it though

clear frost
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I have one in my abandoned Orna toon. Sec.

dusk osprey
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meant in beta for Brilliant Lights II

terse topaz
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They might already take over. Idk it would be a nice buff for sure, might not be op

dusk osprey
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but hey

clear frost
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oh, yeah no I don't have that

dusk osprey
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wait I might have an older beta character that got all event items (and thus ATrev)

tight adder
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im actualyl surprised people liked the new flask ui more 😮 but i'll endure the sadness :x

west knoll
clear frost
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I voted no for two reasons:

  • I saw the new one first, so attachment bias kicked in
  • When I saw the old one, my first impression is that they were 2 rows of flasks. I imagined myself in the shoes of someone seeing that and being confused as I was.
dusk osprey
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bad news bears gamers

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I do not have an ATrev

west knoll
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No testing after all

dense birch
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Elementless

dusk osprey
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has the blind that most holy spells does, that trickster

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side-note: gonna make the polls now, but in a different thread so that all the Heretic-focused ones are in one spot

clear frost
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It's just Ara Vesta V but Trev refuses to retheme his spells to match regular heretic convention. He likes his Lyonesse nonsense.

dusk osprey
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will make spamming it with flask ones less of a bother

dense birch
rancid kernel
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There's so much information here... Has anyone tested if the weakness reduction Amities affect Efficacious?

clear frost
dense birch
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#1331673652026146847 message lvl 1 staff

dense birch
rancid kernel
tight adder
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ohhh corvus doesn't have efficacious weird

dusk osprey
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#1333513544196554844 as I make em

tight adder
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The amity that says "resistance affect only x%" doesn't interact with efficacious

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is there an amity that deal with immunities?

clear frost
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no

tight adder
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then no, they aren't working together

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i have one that says "resistance only affect 70%"

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and i was dealing the same damage

west knoll
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I don’t have a mirror yet but even with the flasks I’m not sure I’m doing anguish content that much more safely, sure I can hit three things and with CP keep my DC but missing still happens, maybe I should try ranger 🤔

clear frost
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yeah, that's something I won't be able to test at all and I do wonder if anyone is testing it

west knoll
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Yes we have a no miss flask but that’s only after I have a miss with my AOE spell

west knoll
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Surely some people have mirrors by now?

clear frost
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I specifically cannot. I'm a HoA peasant

dusk osprey
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they play aethric

west knoll
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Oooooooooh apologies my mistake

dusk osprey
tight adder
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i tried anguish and i still struggle, but now i have more options to try to avoid getting 4v1 after missing

dusk osprey
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more coming but that was a lot of typing so I need a minute

clear frost
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If it helps, this is my current anguish hordes build

Screenshot_20250127_141752_Aethric.jpg
west knoll
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Also can someone explain to me when I’m using manaseep over blood loss flasks?

clear frost
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if I could, I would test swapping Windtamer for a different offhand

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and focus on AV4, so more crit

west knoll
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Nice staff

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Jelly!

clear frost
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when I'm doing angL50, I swap the chest for Arisen Fey Banshee and the hood for Rift Helmet

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I'd say I have a success rate of like...maybe 60-70%

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a lot a lot of that is misses

dusk osprey
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Manaseep is great for getting to low mana over time, Bloodloss is for much quicker Iconoclast

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set and forget vs. immediate

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Manaseep is also perfect for dungeons with a 2H AoE

clear frost
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Bloodloss is much more versatile, too.

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Like, in anguish dungeons I die probably like 80% of the time in floor 1 because I need to set up and it takes me too long

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the rest of the time is freakin' immortal lords

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rarely a zerk hahahaha

west knoll
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Yeah I’ve been using bloodloss and seems that’s just better?

dusk osprey
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I am actually gonna set my Towers pick to du because of AV4

west knoll
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Especially cause everything costs more now

west knoll
clear frost
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I do anguish towers at angL15 with AV2

dusk osprey
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what's your AL btw

clear frost
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75

astral inlet
dusk osprey
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just to put things in perspective

clear frost
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yes, absolutely

west knoll
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Hmmm I can do maybe 9/10 but it requires way more attention than I care to give towers

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I’m AL50

dusk osprey
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oddly, that's not seen as a spell

tight adder
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i put it in su because Base Heretic and Corvus don't have Vesta 4, so they will struggle until you get HAra

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but now there's 2H Options so that's why is not "middle"

west knoll
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That’s a good point

dusk osprey
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I am assuming:

  • you have all celestials
  • you are comfortably able to build whatever within reason
tight adder
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can we get a DAra passive like (for HAra >:D) where you get % perma power each time you use flask, but instead of "All", it's "DMG" only :X

west knoll
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I did su also because survivability for early-mid heretics as they work towards there first cele weapon/class can be a little tough but I think better now

west knoll
clear frost
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I see both sides. I think it is important for there to be a carrot to chase. We definitely don't want it to be too far away, but trying to make it as easy as going summonere for instance is probably overshooting.

tight adder
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"use 5 flasks for an ultimate spell xD"

west knoll
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Okay now that is apex lol

clear frost
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so I lean more towards Konq's approach of assuming you have the ability to use most builds

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not because everyone will fall in that category, but because it is something to strive towards

tight adder
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mostly because some mobs have low hp in the towers, so one AoE and you might kill 'em all 😄

tight adder
dusk osprey
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I think I'll metaphorically say I'm looking at Heretic at, like 90% power. You can du everything at a bazillion ALs, but with decent gear and a plan and a build, can you do it well?

clear frost
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One would think that's the case, but you see - that's how you die in towers. "Oh, these little doggos have so little HP" Misses 3 hits. Dies.

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AoE in towers is probably to be as advanced a build as using AV4, if not more.

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And Swanson is super rare.

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Hard to forget that part. AL150+ in my circles, with I don't even know how many dungeons completed, still don't have ornates

dusk osprey
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here he is! Swanson in the flesh

images.jpg
clear frost
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I keep missing that G. I think I need to clean my keyboard lol

tight adder
clear frost
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Like, we no gear at all?

dusk osprey
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Hereswash

tight adder
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changed my vote to 2-UP

west knoll
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Need more votes!

tight adder
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i mean you can do towers comfortably (no-anguish) with what? AL 50-100? and Legen gear?

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anguish is were good luck buck-o

clear frost
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I recently HoC'd just to reset my AL (I was bored, ok?). I could still do everything. So I then restricted myself to only t9 gear, and I still could.

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¯_(ツ)_/¯

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"Gear important" I guess

tight adder
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probably, i remember changing some gear to have extra turns and i died like 99 times less xD

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then i went Dara and never died in towers again lol

dusk osprey
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oh yeah, just a heads up - I respect everyone's votes as well, and their propensity to change them, but I also don't want everyone to immediately just pick the favorite answer, so vote with your own opinion in mind

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as long as everyone's approaching it in a similar way I see it working out

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alright, gonna make the celestial polls

west knoll
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Yeah I’m not changing my votes, but I do know I’m biased against towers

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Sure maybe I could do Ang 15 towers but if they require a full hour then I’m out too much investment for not enough reward, imo

dusk osprey
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my baseline for comfy tower-doing is oneshotting just about everything

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alright, the three celestials are up for polling

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any last words on these for the rest of the polling?

Flasks/Passives:

  • I believe flasks give Heretics and the mage line a solid identity.
  • Flasks are at a ___ point balance-wise
  • I believe Efficacious is a useful passive/is in a good state.
  • I am happy/sad that the Weaved Elements passive is now only on Omni Antlia and Spellweaver instead of all magic classes.
  • Scrolls, now that they give flask rate increases, are in a good state.
  • I believe some flasks should take (effectively) 0 turns to cast.
  • The one I mentioned earlier about PvP AI & flasks

Individual Flasks:

  • is it in a good spot?
clear frost
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yes, that seems perfect

tight adder
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yeh

dusk osprey
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@humble herald what are your thoughts on beta heretic? I'll toss you in the main discussion thread since you weren't in here already

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Keep in mind for many of these that they are SELECT MULTIPLE!

west knoll
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Think we could have a poll about moving aligned sigilflask and elemental storm flask to base heretic? Would feel more in correct as Ara is about the celestial damage so I don’t think it should have/need those two

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Also a poll about efficacious piercing resistances too?

west knoll
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It’s kinda funny, I do like the flasks, but currently(polls so far agree) we were good at hordes and raiding aaaaand now we just are more of that, but we haven’t really fixed any of the holes we previously had, still seems we suck at anguish anywhere 😅

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Granted need more votes, so obviously that’s not final just interesting to see initial feelings

clear frost
#

There are direct improvements to anguish hordes: AV4 now being a thing, bloodloss flask accelerates setup, and we can make sure we hit after missing. Neither of these changes is small, and one of them patches up a hole we had, albeit arguably not as effectively as we had hoped.

west knoll
#

hmmmm thats fair, and AV4 will help towers but not enough to fix the hole i feel

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*ang towers

waxen furnace
#

i think it felt like flasks were going to be more creative utility tools that do unique things, and instead you got perfect shot but better, drain mana faster, apply sigils to do dmg faster

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also the summoner delete thing which is hilarious but so niche

inland cloak
#

In order not to suffer, it is necessary to make sure that the bottle does not use a move, or gives an additional move

waxen furnace
#

also it felts like flasks were a bit of a PoE copy idea, but arent nearly as unique in implementation

inland cloak
#

They did a lot of cool things. but If we don't attack we get a lot of damage. We will still suffer on bosses if the bottle uses the move. Have you tried killing bosses at 50?) Other classes like beo and summoner can both defend and attack at the same time. A heretic cannot, therefore it is difficult to survive

west knoll
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dang you guys writing whole pages?

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got me curious lol

clear frost
#

Not my thought, but I will borrow it because they said it well and I don't remember who to attribute it to. We know the following about the ideals that inform the design decisions for the class:

  • Heretic, and mage in general, is meant to be frail to compensate for its larger damage potential
  • Flasks are meant to provide utility and are situational in nature by design

However, the way flasks are implemented currently have a cost that is two-fold: flask charge (intended), and 1 turn. The latter cost is HUGE for a frail class. Deferring a turn to get a benefit later requires relying on our defensive ability, which is designed to be not as good as other classes.

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So in a sense, flasks and the "glass cannon" design are not currently complimentery, and in fact I believe they are at odds with each other; most of all in PvP where every single turn counts, and you might not have more than 1.

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So with that in mind

dusk osprey
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Sorry about the wait on the flask polls, had to dip to do some work - going forward with them now

clear frost
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... If we don't attack we get a lot of damage. We will still suffer on bosses if the bottle uses the move. Have you tried killing bosses at 50?

Very valid criticism. This update has not yet moved the ball forward for Heretic in this aspect. We have ~the same offensive capability turn 1. Being able to defeat opponents turn 1, within reason, feels inline with the expectations for a "glass cannon"

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Other classes like beo and summoner can both defend and attack at the same time. A heretic cannot, therefore it is difficult to survive

Not so valid criticism, in my opinion, because of the above stated intent for the class. Defense is just not in the cards the way things are defined right now for the class.

west knoll
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agreed and Odie said somewhere that he didn't intend to increase mageline survival directly so we are to remain glass cannons

clear frost
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Yes, sorry. Meant to include it as a reference but... what can I say about Discord search that hasn't been said before?
#1331673547210358794 message

west knoll
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tis the garbage

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i will say although i agree with you i worry having zero turn flasks will put us in the crosshairs like Dursa

clear frost
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Maybe

west knoll
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granted we aren't getting all stats ^^^ for free but it is still a free turn ability and those are tricky

clear frost
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So the other way to go about it, and I am afraid to even say this because I just KNOW where the conversation is going to go, but the other way is to have flasks that help with the situation I described above - a defensive tool that maintains momentum by also increasing the power of a follow-up attack

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like a mana shield

west knoll
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lol

waxen furnace
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it doesnt hurt to ask for more and get less than the ask

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its likely still more than if you had asked for nothing

west knoll
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fair fair

waxen furnace
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if you want something out of heretic now is the time to push for it

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or else you will get these features as is

west knoll
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also very true

waxen furnace
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part of that is getting some consensus around ideas/changes that would benefit your class and then funneling that communication through your mage ORN

errant narwhal
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What if 1 auto cast flasks

inland cloak
clear frost
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I think we are fundamentally in agreement. I am just trying to warn against veering this into the "Heretic should be tanky" line of thought because the studio already said Heretic won't be, by design.

west knoll
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right right

clear frost
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You know how there's two sayings:
"The strongest defense is a good offense" and "the strongest offense is a good defense"?

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Well, we are meant to be the former

west knoll
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whos the mage orn rep again?

clear frost
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Konq

west knoll
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just making sure, i know he's working on a lot right now for us

clear frost
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indeed

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Thank you, by the way Konq

hard bay
tight adder
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has anyone checked if mana-surge got fixed?

dusk osprey
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did I miss anything?

clear frost
errant narwhal
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And give some ward🥴🥴

clear frost
dusk osprey
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I was tired of the same old options 50 times over so I added ones with cat emojis

tight adder
# dusk osprey did I miss anything?

do you think NF will add/modify more mage gear that interact with flasks tho? so far only scrolls, but i'm not sure if it's intended as in the future (or once the identity is set) the mage gear will start to have more passives

dusk osprey
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I doubt scrolls will be the only gear to ever interact with flasks

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With every single identity thusfar, there's been gear that has come out as time goes on that interacts with it

tight adder
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well, i already voted :3 looking forward how these turns the wheel of fate

dusk osprey
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I think since I posted 2.3 metric butt tons of polls, I'm gonna go back and do my actual salaried job for a little bit and let them rack up votes

errant narwhal
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I just realized flask is a secret potion made by a mage 🤣

dusk osprey
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new poll: my polls are really cool and also Heretics are awesome

hard bay
errant narwhal
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Ultimate spell but not used by its own class

inland cloak
#

I think it's also a big problem for an eretic that you have to burn all your mana to get to 100% power. Burn manna and you can't use magic. Can add a bit of power to the magic thinblade skill? And also add a flask to burn manna to the entire class line

rancid kernel
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I feel kinda dumb, but where are the polls? The polls thread hasn't updated for me

tight adder
rancid kernel
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Wait I see it

west knoll
astral inlet
errant narwhal
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Maybe Manaflask should go to the last dmg spell type cast in order to maximize the heretic potential on the blue line

Deific>f.spell manaflask=F.spell😊
F.spell>deific manaflask=deific☹️
F. Spell>deific manflask=F.spell🥰

dusk crescent
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@dusk osprey Would u mind adding our fey disaster spell as part of the poll?

They are meant to be our ultimate spells, but It takes 3 turns and they are overshadowed by ultima. Terrible m1 and nerfed furthur in pvp as well

inland cloak
west knoll
hard bay
west knoll
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found it

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hmmm id have to look at it when not in class tonight, see if i can come up with couple stat changes that are in the theme of the class

errant narwhal
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Are there heretic corvus user use spell celstial arrow

thorn grove
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I suggest 1-2 years ago a buff to that spell, i love the starstruck idea effect

urban delta
#

Thematically I like the Summoner dispel Flask even if it won't be used a ton as it makes Heretic feel like the master mage. "You only know how to summon things? Weak. snaps fingers"

Mana/Blood Ray help in endless and sometimes PvP

Manaseep/Bloodloss help for various PvE and maybe PvP if you can survive

Ara Sigils helps for anything you can cast and survive to nuke

Repetition Flask is similarly cool and thematic. "Watch me do that again faster!"

Elemental Sigils are fine - would like them more if they played better vs immunities when paired with Efficacious

What niche/effects are missing? Or if not niche effects- what is missing that would make Heretic excel in an area where you'd rather use Ara or another class?

Would a "web flask" that gives opponents t.Dex down 1-2 be helpful?

hard bay
tight adder
urban delta
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Sounds exactly like what a glass cannon can do

tight adder
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it'll only work for raiding anyways XD

urban delta
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Another potential Flask idea would be one that hits magic and attack like Forbid or even a "Break" effect.

"Cower before my power!" Sounds very Mage theme-y as well.

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But that's a little more of an improvement to defenses so not sure it's the route Odie would want

west knoll
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@dusk osprey i think theres been some base stat changes since you made your sheet

image.png
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although not to mage😢

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i was going to make some recommendations for mage stats but noticed your numbers weren't matching everywhere for live

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ill need to think on this a bit more

dusk osprey
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yeah I noted that in the initial screenshot

(numbers not fully up to date, but it's not like the others were removed)

west knoll
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oh your right i missed that comment

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well this is the uptodate and wow does Dara get a straight double to the mana

dusk osprey
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even the omnimancer celestials have more stat diversity 🙃

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(again out of date, but point still stands)

image.png
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woah, weirdly those stats for Omni look swapped, Ara should in theory have more Mag because of the whole Ara dealie but it has less

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(but in game it does indeed have less!)

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odie this is unacceptable smh my head, I can't believe nobody noticed this mimic

west knoll
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that is wild

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i think we definitely need some diversity for our stats

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if nothing else it will for us to build a little differently in theory give us something to lean into

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i know some ppl pushed for atk on corvus s we can hybrid more effectively but with selene hands on the chopping block i feel like thats a waste of a request

dusk osprey
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#1333513544196554844 message

dusk osprey
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I hate that anything that is being nerfed is considered "dead"

unique narwhal
west knoll
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not unusable but theyre already not great for hera because our low base atk

unique narwhal
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sad that the vision is dead now

dusk osprey
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If anything:

  • Swap the Omni Antlia and Ara stat multis, to more align with Heretic Ara(ish)
  • Give the damn Heretic celestials some of what the Omni ones have
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especially now that Omni Ara has the Ara skills, it should thematically match

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-Mag on T9 and +Mag on T10 just seems... wrong

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I don't think a -30% Def/Res and -20% HP is worth it for a +10% Mag and +20% Mana though

unique narwhal
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t9 convecti agrees

west knoll
dusk osprey
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Yeah sorry, part of that was an old man yelling at cloud moment since I've seen it everywhere this patch

unique narwhal
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although tbf there wasn't much reason to get any t9 celestials last 2023 november

dusk osprey
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like "Towerfall is dead" it still does millions, just not as many millions

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in the grand scheme of things it's still a viable raiding build

west knoll
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so currently im thinking:
corvus: 1.1 hp 1.1 def .9 res 1.1 dex to show the class leaning into thief and more hp would help MF maybe even .9 mag similar to the loss realm corvus takes, but now with Crit poise temps will make up that difference (i'd hope)

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Ara: 1.2 mana 1.2 mag .9 def .9 res leaning into the high cost higher damage spells?

dusk osprey
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Ara: 0.9x HP, 1.2x Mana, 1.2x Mag, 0.9x Def, 0.9x Res
Corvus: 1.1x HP, 1.2x Def, 0.8x Res, 1.2x Dex, 1.1x Att

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yeah we got about to the same conclusion

west knoll
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nice and yeah .9 hp on ara feels fine

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now just to convince everyone and Odie😜

dusk osprey
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I think the polls will do a wonderful job summing up beta thoughts honestly

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They already have to a decent amount

west knoll
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also our base stats compared to other classes kinda surprised me

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hadnt ever really looked at them

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our dex isn't bad although probably suffers in Ang from not great dex boosting gear or fixed miss chance spells, but now with SS and Cs change more people are going to be in that boat

dusk osprey
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wow our Def is ATROCIOUS

west knoll
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yeeeeeaaaaaah

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and our mag stat compared to realm's atk (the melee glass cannon) is also kinda low

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our mana is our only high stat and thats only if you dont consider celestials😂

dusk osprey
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The lowest base Resistance is Realmshifter (base/Corvus), with 405
The lowest base Defense is GS (base/hydrus/auriga) with 155, then Heretic (base/Ara/Corvus) with 244, THEN Realm (base/Corvus) with 405

unique narwhal
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...bruh

hard bay
west knoll
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honestly i'm a bit more up in arms about the lack of mag compared to realms atk

dusk osprey
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Def numbers overall are low compared to Res, and Att numbers overall are high compared to Mag 🙃

west knoll
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which feels backwards as aren't the majority of attacks in the game atk(and thus def) based?

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PVE i mean

dusk osprey
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believe so, but there's a LOT of elemental skills

west knoll
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true but those still hit def if theyre melee i thought?

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like lightning strike hits def but a lightning resistance would reduce it

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and geal seal just hits res

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correct me if i'm wrong cause i definitely should know this as a tier 11, 3+ year😅

hard bay
dusk osprey
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base stats ranked

image.png
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(only the base versions, sorry was too lazy to do all celestials)

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colors are just for easy distinction and don't matter

acoustic prairie
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Holy mother of beo resistance

thin stone
acoustic prairie
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  • Beo hate magic
  • Looks inside Beo
  • Second highest Magic stat
  • 🤨
dusk osprey
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Beo Hydrus gets a lot of buffs as well

image.png
thin stone
dusk osprey
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THOG WANT DOG TO HIT BAD MAN WITH (MAGIC) ROCK

acoustic prairie
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I always thought there was something funny about GS having comparable Mag stat to Gilga

dusk osprey
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why does Gilga need 800 base mag again?

acoustic prairie
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Gilgamage.

dusk osprey
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more like Selene Hands Gilgamesh

acoustic prairie
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They have 500 less attack than realm, let them have 800 more mag than realm

dusk osprey
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  • Gilgamesh: is canonically the tank class
  • 3rd highest defense
  • 4th highest resistance
dusk osprey
unique narwhal
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wait beoh has more mag than heretic?

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ayo

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that's... something

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explains why my av feels mysteriously so much weaker when I switch to heretic huh

dusk osprey
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also hybrid passive boosts it

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👏 move some of Ara's skill power to Heretic Ara's innate boost to Ara skills 👏

unique narwhal
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right I keep forgetting hm actually directly increases stats instead of just boosting hybrid skills

terse topaz
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Wait, offtopic but does hybrid monster stack with hybrid amities (turns all attacks into hybrid)

tight adder
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Ara with x1.3 mag UvUr

dusk osprey
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I wish

inland cloak
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Can increase the mag of the Heretic?))

tight adder
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funny how the "breaks the damage cap" class can't reach damage cap like a "now it's dead" class that shouldn't be considered dead -.-

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why does Beo has a very high mag stat anyways?

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shouldn't it have a more def/res/Hp/mana ?

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but not as big as gilga? xD

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we need a rock,paper, scissor, lizard, spock :v and put "heretic beats X/Y but get's beaten by W/Z :V

unique narwhal
terse topaz
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Heretic base mag should be closer to 1900 if nothing else changes

tight adder
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do we think this could be accurate :v?

9i9l2r.png
dusk osprey
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swap Realm and Beo but yeah kinda

terse topaz
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Heretic good vs beo? Idk about that

tight adder
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i alwaays struggle against beo but never against realm

terse topaz
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Beo literally has more res than we have mag

dusk osprey
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Realm Dorados are a dex issue waiting to happen

terse topaz
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Look at how absurd that is btw - every class with more than a thimbleful of att has more att than the highest defense stat

tight adder
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maybe that's why they don't have T.Atk+++

terse topaz
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Compare res to mag now

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And mages don't have a BoF

tight adder
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shhh odie is writing :focuses:

cedar skiff
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with the way damage calc works, offensive and defensive stats don't have equal weighting. thus, it may be odd to compare them

terse topaz
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Moreso comparing att to mag and res to def

cedar skiff
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responding to: more att than the highest defense stat

terse topaz
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1800 res vs 1100 def max

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1600 mag vs 2100 att

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The discrepancy is there no matter which way you look at it, unless I'm missing something

cedar skiff
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even then - the m1/m2 of skills available are ultimately going to dictate what those numbers mean in practice

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it'll never really be apples vs apples

terse topaz
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I guess we have more good offensive skills now than before? The AV spells got better compared to ultima being nerfed

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I know I get basically 0'd out by a beo with less ALs than me

cedar skiff
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ultima is a great example of why 1600 mag can be better than 2100 att 🙂

tight adder
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but utima by itself is a broken spell 😛

cedar skiff
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utima by itself is the final spell of the game*

clear frost
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I realize it's not always a good idea to look at edge cases. That said, we as players tend to use the "right tool for the right job" and there are high m1 skills that use either of att or mag.
I think it is being implied that there are more options with higher m1 that are mag than there are that are att based.
Is that correct? And if so, does the skill M1 really bridge the gap we are seeing?

terse topaz
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Ultima kind of gets hard countered by an 80% resist amity

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Can't imagine what it'll be like after the beta goes live

tight adder
cedar skiff
clear frost
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Got it. is there any way that we can help gauge the impact the stat differences could have, potentially?

terse topaz
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Are there any plans to have a BoF version for mages

clear frost
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New abilities are being introduced already, so I feel like the opportunity is ripe to assess it

terse topaz
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It would be real neat, even if it's not as powerful

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Or maybe an inverse, super increased resistance/def at the cost of mag?

tight adder
bitter cove
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If we're talking stat changes, 5% base crit for heretic.

terse topaz
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It could be a fun alternative. Mages are known to be versatile

terse topaz
tight adder
clear frost
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As an addendum to my question - my personal experience matches with magic skills with high m1 being plentiful, and we use them!
The wall I usually run up against is in the tradeoff a high m1 requires, which is typically low m2.
Translated into game terms, what it means is that it takes a few turns of buffing for Hera to get going, so I have experienced significant friction between the fact that we can't take hits, and the fact that we have to so that we can utilize our glass-cannon identity.

tight adder
terse topaz
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I'm a bit concerned that even with all the neat flask stuff, heretics are still relegated to glass cannons that will deal even less damage in turn 1 pvp

clear frost
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Which to me is why it feels like higher mag would improve the class.

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All variations of what Bloodshade and Goody Phil say above.

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It is a common sentiment.

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This is an evil borne of comparisons (maybe unhealthy ones) to the likes of Spiked Shield builds, or Hybrid-based builds, that require little to no setup.

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Bloodloss flask is making us a lot faster, granted.

terse topaz
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Idk even realmshifter has Dorado for a "tankier" build

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We kind of just don't

clear frost
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Well, maybe. We certainly don't have access to warrior gear, which might be what creates that disparity (in relative terms)

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Anyway, to sum up and I know I've said this a lot already - the need to buff up to deal enough damage to defeat things and the fact that we have low defensive capabilities interfere with each other.

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We've brainstormed here a few things that we think might solve that issue partially:

  • Making some of the flasks cost 0 turns, particularly those we can use to get set-up
  • Higher Mag
  • Defensive tools less-reliant on stats. Ideally ones that keep momentum rolling on our side (the infamous mana shield)
  • Something else I'm forgetting? Please chime in
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I think another one that came up a lot before beta was auto-applying sigils on cast. That might help too.

west knoll
clear frost
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Yeah, I think that would be a good middle ground indeed.
This means we are still vulnerable in PvP defense, which is probably fine/intended.

west knoll
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And I also think we should have more mag, m1 on skills are direct multipliers of the base stat aren’t they? So although we have higher m1 skills having less mag stat means we’re still not getting a higher number here

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Ignoring Ultima cause of edge case, our next good m1 spell is what?

clear frost
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Maybe. Omnimancy spells, I think. Perhaps transference spells. Shooting from the hip. Please correct me.

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Oh, scythe has pretty high m1 as well

terse topaz
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Chakram/scythe? Idk the m1s

clear frost
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Chakram has very bad M1

terse topaz
#

Ara spells are decent?

clear frost
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Yes, above middle ground by my recollection.

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Well, elaborating - AV2 has good M1. It looks like now they all do but I don't know specifics.

west knoll
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And I think those are only 2.5m1

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Seal 3 are all 2.4

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Same with the strikes

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Vesta 2 is 2.3

unique narwhal
#

dual element omnimancy 2 spells are 2.7

clear frost
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thanks for confirming

west knoll
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Cool so our good spells are 2.7 compared to some melee skills what’s common these days(I literally don’t know 😅)

unique narwhal
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rend/epee /s

terse topaz
#

Omnimancy doesn't crit...

unique narwhal
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yes

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damn shame

clear frost
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I don't know if it is common, but Guarding Strikes IV has silly m1 I think; I deal very high damage with my heretic noodle arms

west knoll
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True but not really the point we were comparing with Odie

unique narwhal
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except verse iv crits

terse topaz
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So we lose power on Ultima, our next best crit skill is Scythe, and the AV spells got buffed to be a bit better

west knoll
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Honestly Ultima is still probably going to be our best critting spell

clear frost
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Now that weaving is no longer, yeah probably.

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Though seals will have the added benefit of still charging flasks at the normal rate.

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Problem is that "the best critting spell" in the context of us talking about a 2-turn spell implies long-term content like raiding, and I don't imagine needing to use flasks repeatedly in raiding.

#

I stsand corrected - elemental sigils and celestial sigils are a thing

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so in that set of circumstances I maybe would want to keep charging the flasks after setup

west knoll
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ultima also charges flasks

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so far omniblasta charges it the most

terse topaz
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If ultima is still our best skill, then our pvp simply got nerfed

clear frost
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Yes. I meant to specify that it charges it slower

west knoll
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oh agreed

terse topaz
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Cool so uh... I love Heretic but I am much less inclined to invest in the class if I feel like I will underperform in pvp no matter what

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I was king of counting on some of the changes being beneficial for pvp. Flasks are sweet but slow...

cedar skiff
terse topaz
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In this scenario (pvp where heretic's identity is glass cannon, and the meta is based around t1 skills), yes

#

We don't have the tools or gear to survive long

cedar skiff
#

then - in this scenario - you will likely never see something outclass Ultima. ultima is already the final and most powerful spell in the game. outclassing it is just plain ol' powercreep and may not be warranted

terse topaz
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That's fair, however

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Heretic has not been in a good spot in pvp, and our performance was nerfed with the ultima nerf

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I'm not sure any of the changes really mitigate this

cedar skiff
#

to be fair - ultima wasn't really nerfed. the damage inflation via multipliers was - as it was in that low-effort-to-max-damage range. has it really shown to change ultima in the pvp realm while you've tested it in beta? the damage should still be healthy

hard bay
west knoll
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i'd like to see omnimancy of the special 4 elements

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but if we cant have that then yeah omni 3 crit would be great for heretic

terse topaz
west knoll
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fills flasks by a good portion, crits, can have our faction bonus, ticks all the mage glass cannon boxes

terse topaz
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Efficacious makes pre-ultima pvp slightly better vs deities/heretics

robust bough
terse topaz
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Right which contributes to our poor pvp performance

dusk osprey
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I use Magic Scythe or Magic Chakram in PvP

terse topaz
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Manaray flask seems underwhelming

dusk crescent
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I cant say for sure in beta, because i dont have the right class and gear in beta to compare

But in live server pvp, the dmg potential of SS user (gilga, diety and RSD) still outweight heretic even when we use magic scythe or ultima

scarlet pawn
#

Ultima isn't a Heretic spell anyway. Efficacious could instead have a much higher bonus to overcome resistances and immunities, one that matches the damage reduction amities. You can cover Ultima with 1 amity, but not all 8 elements.

For some kind of balance, make it so Efficacious only works for single-element spells and the current bonus for multi-target spells.

#

That said, our best single-element spells that don't require more than 1 turn aren't Heretic spells either lol

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So hopefully something can be done there.

dusk crescent
#

Our fey disaster and ara spell are nerfed in pvp too

scarlet pawn
#

A boost to Efficacious would help with the Fey Disaster spells. Perhaps the Disaster II/III spells could be revised as far as casting time/damage as additional options for late game and lower tier use.

As for AV, we have some help via Sigilflask, though that's Ara's niche.

terse topaz
#

There's just no great option for pvp. Ultima gets destroyed by amities; scythe deals damage against Defense and not resistance, which is sometimes detrimental; the AV spells are significantly weaker than other options

modest sierra
terse topaz
#

25 AL, no buffs

modest sierra
#

More curiosity, why no buffs?

terse topaz
#

I'm testing in pvp

modest sierra
#

Ahh okay

#

Nevermind then

terse topaz
#

I'm sure it's great for endless

#

Some of the flasks are definitely useful in pvp, like manaray for finishing off high dex opponents

modest sierra
#

Has anyone heard if the infusion spells are not intended to carry over to the next floor?

west knoll
#

they are supposed to carry over floor to floor in dungeons and battle to battle in towers

#

not sure about monuments

flint ridge
#

I believe also Monuments

west knoll
#

huh looks like weve got some stat changes happening to classes

#

nothing major just noticed that base stats are slightly different than my chart from earlier

#

also my Beo numbers are probably off, i forgot to unequip my pet, which BB# migt have given a stat boost

robust bough
modest sierra
west knoll
#

so you converted and it didn't carry over to the next floor? if so i think thats a bug

astral inlet
#

Dex was the biggest issue I saw in pvp when I moved to an area with Deities. I had to use RS to fight them.

modest sierra
#

Correct, just wanted to make sure that no one heard if that was an intended effect or not

dusk crescent
#

My Opinion on Flask Spell

  • I like the concept of flask spell, it was fun to use and unique enough to differentiate from diety apex.

  • Charge rate is decent for tower and endless if charges can be carried forward to next battle, but too slow to be useful for faster content such as pvp. In pvp setting, being a glass cannon, heretic don’t have the survivability to charge up a full flask.

  • In terms of usefulness, I have mixed feeling on the available flask spells:

  • Mana Ray and Blood Ray address one of Heretic's main pain points: the lack of accuracy in battle. These spells are effective in endless modes and for finishing off players in PvP scenarios. However, since they are single-target abilities and rely on flask charges, Heretic may struggle to sustain their usage in high-anguish horde settings, such as horde dungeons and towers.

  • Bloodloss and Manaseep helps in PvE setting and pretty much fulfilled the same role with different flavour.

  • Elemental Stormflask is not particularly effective, as the four elemental status effects it applies lack potency

  • Sigil and Aligned Flask are useful spell in Raids but I find it weird that they are exclusive to Heretic Ara. Aligned Flask will fit in better for Base Heretic.

  • Banishment Flask felt too niche and specific against summoners, perhaps they can expand their effect against pet class by applying tamper?

  • Flask spells can be designed with specific themes to synergize with the unique playstyles of the Base Heretic and its celestial classes:

  • Base Heretic: Flask spells could focus on Aligned and Elemental flasks, enhancing synergy with elemental-based spells.

  • Corvus: Flask spells could provide temporary buffs or self-damage reduction, complementing abilities like Mystic Feather and Critical Poise.

  • Ara: Flask spells could incorporate sigils, aligning with Ara’s spell specialties.

#

Other musing:

  • Scroll destroy ward and are unusable in the beta state.
  • The changes to Ara spells are excellent.
  • The four Fey Disaster spells serve as Heretic's ultimate abilities. However, their effectiveness is limited due to their long charge time and low penetration. As a result, their usefulness is mostly confined to raid scenarios, and they are quickly overshadowed once Ultima is unlocked.
  • Efficacious do too little damage and not useful if you played heretic correctly by applying the correct element weakness or at least element neutral damage.
  • Heretic remains underwhelming in PvP settings. As the intended glass-cannon archetype of the game, it falls short of expectations, dealing less damage than Spiked Sheild users and usually tankier classes like Diety, Gilgamesh, and RSD. Additionally, Heretic's survivability is severely lacking, further exacerbating its struggles in PvP.
#

If you read this, thanks for reading my long comment

west knoll
#

I’m not a big PvP person so I can’t truly weigh in on that portion but I find the summary quite well stated

#

I would also say efficacious is an interesting idea that doesn’t do quite enough

astral inlet
#

Efficacious could make Maji enticing. I never was attracted to it over Bard. Would've been nice to pair with Weaving when the element in the sequence would be immuned.

west knoll
#

Agreed on maji, and yeah would have made WE better although I was still not a fan

hard bay
#

I'd honestly like to see a refined WE added back in at some point for base heretic at least.

#

I had fun with it for raiding and it would have probably made for a decent maji AoE build

west knoll
#

Nah WE can’t do AoE, counts as a hit for each mob thus reset the cycle

robust bough
#

Doing a bit of pvp testing, as best I can considering many matches are against no al or t1 classes. I do wish we had some overall better spells for it, magic scythe being my go-to and a 10al deity still able to zero that during testing. But mana-ray/blood ray flask prob my fav of everything that's been added, for finishing off those high dex fights

#

It does seem to have some pretty good pen, (again, limited testing) so likely good for wall deity that 2nd chances and sits at max passive

hard bay
paper eagle
#

#1264028440231940107 message

hard bay
#

Ah, rip

clear cape
#

I think all heretic must have omnimancry because is another identity

clear frost
clear frost
amber ruin
#

Efficacious

Interaction with Immunity:

When the enemy is immune to an element (100% damage reduction or a 0.0x multiplier), this ability allows a portion of the damage to bypass the immunity based on the number of flasks filled:

  • 1 flask: Immunity changes from a 0.0x multiplier to 0.2x.
  • 2 flasks: Immunity changes from a 0.0x multiplier to 0.4x.
  • 3 flasks: Immunity changes from a 0.0x multiplier to 0.6x.
  • 4 flasks: Immunity changes from a 0.0x multiplier to 0.8x.
  • 5 flasks: Immunity changes from a 0.0x multiplier to 1.0x (normal damage is fully applied).

Interaction with Resistance:

When the enemy has elemental resistance (50% damage reduction or a 0.5x multiplier), this ability reduces resistance based on the number of flasks filled:

  • 1 flask: Resistance changes from a 0.5x multiplier to 0.7x.
  • 2 flasks: Resistance changes from a 0.5x multiplier to 0.9x.
  • 3 flasks: Resistance changes from a 0.5x multiplier to 1.1x (total damage plus 10% bonus damage).
  • 4 flasks: Resistance changes from a 0.5x multiplier to 1.3x.
  • 5 flasks: Resistance changes from a 0.5x multiplier to 1.5x (total normal damage plus 50% bonus damage, same as when hitting a weakness, would be nice to have blue damage).

Interaction with Weakness:

When the enemy has elemental weakness (50% damage increase or a 1.5x multiplier), this skill increases the damage (just to say there is some interaction, the focus is immunity and resistance) of the weakness based on the number of flasks filled:

  • 1 flask: Weakness changes from a 1.5x multiplier to 1.51x.
  • 2 flasks: Weakness changes from a 1.5x multiplier to 1.52x.
  • 3 flasks: Weakness changes from a 1.5x multiplier to 1.53x.
  • 4 flasks: Weakness changes from a 1.5x multiplier to 1.54x.
  • 5 flasks: Weakness changes from a 1.5x multiplier to 1.55x.

The values are mainly illustrative

#

Could the increases per flask be 10%?

Or maybe decreasing:

  • 1 flask 0.15x
  • 2 flask 0.25x
  • 3 flask 0.40x
  • 4 flask 0.60x
  • 5 flask 0.85x

Or any suggestions?

#

Would having something Efficacious working with the amount of bottles be problematic?

#

It would give some reason to keep them full, as is the case with unstable omnimancy

#

(the values or anything could be wrong, I didn't worry so much about accuracy, my goal was to convey the idea)

clear frost
#

I like the idea of innate increased interactions with weaknesses

#

And using the amount of bottles be a good usage other than discharging them is cool.
It is somewhat similar to Apex. I don't know if that is a problem though.

dusk crescent
hard bay
#

Do you guys think a follower that could cast Read Scroll and ward upkeep spells would be useful to us? As to not use up amity/adorn/equip slots on mana regen?

amber ruin
#

Personally, I think a pet with these abilities would be very situational unless it also had something like a 50% or greater buff.

clear frost
#

It is not that big of a cost to slot in acorns, IMHO

amber ruin
#

But I think it would be on my radar if it had mana/ward maintenance and a T. Mag buff ↑↑ (if it had about 20% action it would also be great for raids and dungeons)

clear frost
#

ward upkeep is probably a bigger factor

#

for example, if say, anubis could cast sigils and ward turns, I would probably use it

#

such as by replacing the elemental spells it has with seals

amber ruin
clear frost
#

hmm? How does slotting a few acorns sacrifice any of those followers' abilities?

#

You could be right, I just don't see it. There are no armor adornments that increase follower action rate.

amber ruin
#

I was commenting that the pet would not be used unless it was a replacement that was up to par for the others.

dusk crescent
#

I will love to have a pet that upkeep ward and do mage stuff, but lets not deviate from the topic guys. This discussion is about mage beta test after all 🙂

clear frost
#

I mean. I would use Anubis if it just traded away its spells for seals hahahaha

#

It's all good.

#

I was thinking this morning we need a compilation of suggestions

#

Lots of good ideas floating around, but we only have the one topic so innevitably things get buried

amber ruin
#

Taking advantage of this, did NF say anything about diversifying the Heretic B/A/C statuses?

clear frost
#

Not directly

#

The idea of increasing our mag stat was rebuffed indirectly by pointing out that att and mag are not weighted the same way after factoring in M1 from abilities/skills that use each stat

#

the rest was not directly addressed

amber ruin
#

Looking at HCorvus, maybe it would be interesting if he had a passive that converted 100% of mag into atk? I did a BoF build on my corvus and he has less atk than a beo with -50asc in relation to me

amber ruin
amber ruin
clear frost
#

Suggestion compilation:

  • On efficacious: #1331673547210358794 message and #1331673547210358794 message
  • On Base Hera not having a niche: #1331673547210358794 message
  • General topics post-tweaks, including starting flask charge, omnimancy of higher tiers/all elements, flask charge speed, and others:
    #1331673547210358794 message
  • Some flasks are similar to other skills that already exist. More unique effects should be part of the mage class line toolkit. Some suggestions here: #1331673547210358794 message

Addressed:

  • Heretic stat diversity. Post pinned with last differentiated values between celestial classes.
  • Flasks were improved by making some of them cost 0 turns (give an additional turn). This didn't address all the feedback, but newer posts have more relevant info.
  • Scrolls now give ward. A decent amount. The offhand ability is still read mana so not all feedback was addressed.
#

I am monitoring this thread closely and I am willing to edit this post to include other suggestions as they are made/pointed out to me

#

so could the above post be pinned for ease of reference?

#

I believe this addresses most of the changes and the current sentiment towards them, though the loss of Weaved Elements has not been discussed very much

hard bay
amber ruin
#

I hope my Arisen North Star gets some love along with the scrolls as well in these Heretic related changes.

clear frost
#

@acoustic prairie , sorry for the ping. Could you pin the summary above? I will do my best to keep it up to date.

acoustic prairie
#

I'll think about it

acoustic prairie
clear frost
#

that was quick thinking!

#

thanks

#

@dusk osprey , @west knoll , I think you are also in the loop of suggestions that have been made. What is missing from the summary above?

west knoll
west knoll
west knoll
#

Sorry about the ping Konq!

#

Otherwise I think you got the majority of my concerns there

clear frost
clear frost
west knoll
#

What’s interesting is the stat changes are in both live and beta

west knoll
#

heres what i've noticed so far, looks like Odie is doing some testing maybe? either that or i messed up the original chart

#

very possible lol

dusk osprey
#

you putting the proposed changes for Heretic in there really is confusing me

#

the left two are on NOT BETA, correct?

#

OT bonus perhaps?

void ridge
thin stone
#

is this data right?

west knoll
#

damn totally forgot hometown bonus, but yes the left two are both live

#

thats likely the discrepency noted although strange i dont see it across all classes

#

ill review them all and resend these, ignoring yesterdays data cause i was travelling around town

tight adder
west knoll
#

apologies everyone i apparently can't do college and orna at the same time, heres the correct(with caveats) values comparing the two

west knoll
west knoll
west knoll
tight adder
#

oh? heretic has a bit more stats? but still the difference is with ara being 1.1?

west knoll
#

yeah

tight adder
#

good to know

west knoll
west knoll
tight adder
#

the treason

west knoll
#

I hope Odie takes a good look at the things wandering poet summarized, holds all my hopes for the class there 😬

inland cloak
#

My Opinion on the Heretic

Flasks are a great idea and can be really useful, but only if they become more effective.

Issue 1: Flasks take too long to charge without any boosts. They should charge faster so that we can use them in time without limiting our choice of weapons or off-hand items.

Issue 2: The only flask skill that makes sense to use is the one that applies marks. Other skills deal too little damage—it's simply more beneficial to use any other skill—or they perform unnecessary actions. In raid bosses, PvP, farming, and dungeons, these effects are not needed. Why? Because it's not worth wasting a turn. We have many powerful and efficient skills that are more advantageous to use.

Suggested Fix: Make flasks charge faster and not consume turns. This way, they will serve as an additional boost rather than a hindrance. Otherwise, they are practically useless.

If flasks do not consume turns and charge faster, they will be highly useful in raids, dungeons, and overall gameplay. In PvP, this won't cause imbalance since everything happens very quickly—flasks wouldn't recharge fast enough to be abused, even with increased charge speed.

#

Sorry, my English is very bad, I use a translator.)

amber ruin
#

Raid: Pew Pew Chakram
DG: Pew Pew Mage's Dance

clear frost
#

I don't agree that they need to charge faster

#

flask charge increase fast enough if you take advantage of what we know:

  • Use basic element omnimancy. More basic elements makes it go faster, so Omni 2 spells are faster, and Omniblast/omniblasta are fastest.
  • Exploit enemy weaknesses
#

That is without taking scrolls into account

west knoll
#

Exploit enemy weakness really only works in raids as dungeons it’s just totally random what you come across, so harder to prep for and I mean even with the best scroll(75%) and Corvus and omniblasta it takes me three rounds to fill 1 bottle

tight adder
#

Keep in mind that scrolls are the only gear for now 🤷

#

That affect charge rate that is

west knoll
#

Hopefully more in the future like other classes got

#

If it’s just always locked to scrolls then use cases drop drastically

tidal frigate
#

Av4 description shows it affects all. But it mostly dmg on single. Anything else need to be done to make it deal dmg to all?

astral inlet
tidal frigate
#

My eyes are betraying me

scarlet pawn
#

If base Heretic is left without the Aligned Sigilflask, then maybe it can have a passive chance for [Faction Element]↑↑ to compliment Efficacious (precedent being the temp Arcane/Dragon↑↑ bonus from Aglovale/Tethra).

clear frost
#

that would be awesome!

grizzled chasm
#

So I’m just now seeing this is there a break down of what is changing it’s kinda wordy and doesn’t really make sense. So do you need to use a scroll to get flasks in your off hand now ?? Or is it just a base class change ??

astral inlet
sick lantern
#

Idk what the point of the Corvus class is compared to base now, aside from thief gear. But my impression was this was a mage blade class so it would be cool if it played into that idea.

#

Like if you use physical weapons (daggers) then your mag stat is added to the power of physical skills. Like hybrid but gear and skill

clear frost
#

Hmm? Corvus is, as of right now, a good deal stronger than base heretic

scarlet pawn
#

I think they were wondering what niche or theme Corvus is supposed to fulfill.

dusk osprey
#

Corvus (generic) based on base class is focused on Critical Hits, mostly

jagged bane
#

After so much disappointment, I’m just waiting for the final result and the official release.

dusk osprey
#

Banishment Flask, for full clarification - does damage equal to 100% of each summon's remaining HP, which means that if ward is up, they will not die

rancid kernel
tight adder
amber ruin
#

After watching the video, I'm thinking that NF is already satisfied with the current state of Herege and that there won't be any more changes... But I still want to maintain an expectation that there will be improvements.

astral inlet
#

I tried some arena fights with Hera. It was basically turn 1 Ultima 2nd chance, turn 2 Mana-Ray Flask 2nd chance, and turn 3 Mana-Ray Flask Victory.

clear frost
#

That sounds pretty good, actually

#

Annoying second chances aside

astral inlet
#

It's an easy way to deal with 2nd chances and not worry about missing or parapet. It was interesting to see that there's enough charge to use the flask on turn 2 and 3.

urban delta
#

Or, when in doubt, the good 'ol Sleep Dart, Stun Dart, Freeze trifecta

#

Burning also lowers an opponents' magic/attack by 20% - that's part of why I'd be more interested in the Elemental Status flask if I could guarantee a Freeze and/or Burn - maybe Decay but Paralyze is significantly less useful.

In addition, Windtamer Shield/Lance's Storming Tempest gives Windswept which reduces Critical Chance by 50%

I'm not saying any of that fixes the issues but they pair well with the tools that Flasks will be providing

astral inlet
#

I didn't see where you were going with that at first. I was just trying to find uses for the flasks.

urban delta
#

It's not the direction I expected to take Heretic and it feels very much like some of what I think Deity needs for PvP to try and slow fights down a tad to get Apex online but Flasks sort of provide tools for that. I may be in the minority but I like the overall direction of Flasks even if I think they need some tweaks/gear support

Also - if you're not against a Deity, Heretic or Base Gilga, Celestial Arrow should hit pretty hard and charge flasks a touch better than Ultima if I remember the chart correctly

#

Alternatively-

T1 Sleep Dart
T2 Sigils
T3 Ara Vestaga FIREWORKS!

astral inlet
#

Celestial Arrow does holy damage so I wouldn't use it against RS either.

urban delta
#

True - but how many Realmshifters aren't on Dorado nowadays?

dusk crescent
#

RSD present another different challenge for heretic, a well geared RSD is really hard to land a hit with the usual heretic kit.

#

While Mana/Blood ray might solve the issue, it takes too long to charge up a full flask in pvp setting

#

by the time we can charge up a full flask, we might be already dead given our glass cannon status

urban delta
#

That's one of the reasons the status flask being settable to Freeze would be important - but there is Accuracy gear/new ranger spec and magic chakram

#

Without knowing how much Accuracy does or doesn't combat the Dorado passive, I do think we will see Dorado join GUrsa alongside top dog in PvP

brisk salmon
#

This man hasn’t played heretic and he’s figured out the class during beta 😂

urban delta
#

I mean my Deity build only exists because Corvus was the original Staying Power 😂

inland cloak
#

The suffering of the Heretics continues.
To stop this, I ask once again.
Make it so that flaks do not consume a turn; then they will truly help.

cedar skiff
#

Please remember, folks - I am one person so may have difficulty replying to all feedback. This doesn’t meant it’s not heard nor considered. Never take silence negatively - this is a studio that read far more than others

I’m seeing some chatter about heretic not getting enough attention due to a lack of tweaks. Tweaks are to come - they are not as time consuming as players may think. The time consuming part is done

I do need players to remember that over-buffing or adding too much during a beta is just setting ourselves up for a nerf later. The meta doesn’t change in a beta. We just experienced this with Deity, where the apex changes “weren’t enough” and “needed more time”, etc. we need to trust the data and research that drives such changes

clear frost
#

Nice to hear!

#

Are there any areas where the data is thinner? Where would our efforts be put to use best?

inland cloak
lucid seal
cedar skiff
hushed marlin
#

2 opinions as someone who doesnt play heretic:

#

1 - celestials should get some kind of stat differences

#

2 - corvus, being a thiefy mage, should be encouraged to use phys dmg spells (like Magic scythe amd dagger). Maybe bonus damage and +flask fill? Or +crit dmg on those

cedar skiff
#

Today's tweaks:

* Scrolls now grant positive Ward
* Some Flask spells can now grant an additional turn
* Summon flasks shall never fail
* Ward infusion can now charge up to 2 flasks```
dusk osprey
#

Additional turn flasks:

  • Mana-surge, if hitting multiple enemies
  • Sigil Stormflask, sometimes
  • Aligned Sigilflask, sometimes
  • Bloodloss, always
#

Judging from my 196% Arisen Witch's Scroll, it now has base 18% ward - this is what it looks like at the same quality now (based on a shield that also has 18% base ward)

image.png
#

with the same test, I believe Arisen Morrigan's Scroll has 20% ward - again, here's the ward it would have, but this time at 200% godforged (I only had a legendary on hand)

image.png
clear frost
#

Morri scroll

Screenshot_20250203_152658_Orna_BETA.jpg
dusk osprey
#

oh I guess I could just do that

#

Morrigan's Scroll has base 19% ward!

clear frost
#

I think this makes scrolls much, much more usable

dusk osprey
#

definitely

dusk osprey
hasty heath
#

need to give the scrolls a look now

unique narwhal
#

ohhhhhh this on paper at least looks like a very good change to scrolls

dusk osprey
#

regardless of any flask charge stuff, huge for scroll enjoyers

unique narwhal
#

actual reason to equip them

dusk osprey
#

we'll eventually see a change the flavor text on scrolls as well I hope

unique narwhal
#

is "shield"mage vision alive again lol

dusk osprey
#

Huge for the poll responses

unique narwhal
#

is more dex for heretic (or even just hcorvus) on the table at all?

#

or is it just joever on that front

dusk osprey
#

I don't think we're completely done on changes for Heretic

#

I think it's important we focus on seeing if these changes solve some of our concerns and continue to identify the remaining ones we have so that any other changes Odie decides to do are more aligned with them

unique narwhal
#

aight

thin stone
dusk osprey
#

the toilet paper offhands went from 1-ply to 4-ply 👀

waxen furnace
#

HYPE

urban delta
#

Is Ara Vestaga bugged? Lower PvP damage than Vestala

#

I'll give towers a run on Ranger spec in a bit or if I find one but accuracy seems huge on Heretic in my initial trials

hushed marlin
#

Sweet that scrolls give ward now but damn how can paper protect someone 😂

urban delta
#

Still loses to scissors though

hushed marlin
#

Touché mafwend

clear cape
#

The change to add additional turn is good
But why i feel it still good not to diferentiationn betwen mana and bloodflask
And ara passive that increase dmg cap is mostly not good need change to more practical not to flasing, like get all enemy get random sigil every turn or sigil dont disapear much longer

clear frost
#

I don't agree on the last point. Super raids are a thing

#

I don't fully understand why blood flasks need to be different from mana flasks either. Could you elaborate?

#

My current understanding is that the two types of flasks are there right now only to set different limits to how many times some flask effects should be usable in succession

clear cape
#

I mean super raid hp not to high either and why need dmg cap
Dmg cap is usefull when you raid only waygate when you facing enemy with infinite hp, also mostly player cannot get dmg vap without good equip

sudden folio
#

am I supposed to get another turn here or is there something I'm not understanding?

Screenshot_20250203_161948_Orna_BETA.jpg
paper eagle
#

maybe it needs to be successful?

sudden folio
#

it certainly took away some mana

paper eagle
#

oh nvm i confused it with the summon one

urban delta
sudden folio
#

ah. i was under the impression that additional turn always happens from this post:

Screenshot_20250203_162617_Discord.jpg
#

with bloodloss that is

urban delta
#

Try it at 100%

#

I’ll pop on and do some as well

#

Yeah looks like at 100%

#

Hmmmmmm

sudden folio
#

ah. dang. I was looking forward to do a Despair AoE build. Can't fill the flask like that eh?

urban delta
#

It’s an elemental skill so it should? 🤔

sudden folio
#

you got a Qatvanga in beta? i don't. left mine in inventory before getting a mirror.

urban delta
#

Yeah I’ll give it a go

urban delta
#

Curious how it would do at Anguish

sudden folio
#

hell yeah.

ok I did find that I picked up a Qatvanga. Haven't even leveled it up. Doing decent damage. Yeah fill the flasks pretty fast. Additional turn is very nice.

I'd have to rearrange adorns and think about survival gear for Anguish.

urban delta
#

More things to fiddle with for sure

sudden folio
sudden folio
#

what I'm not liking is the Flee button. I accidentally press it too often when it's next to the spell.
I prefer the long hold.

Screenshot_20250203_165442_Orna_BETA.jpg Screenshot_20250203_165517_Orna_BETA.jpg
#

or I click the Flee button thinking I can press the continue button because I thought all the things died

dusk osprey
sudden folio
# dusk osprey Manaseep!

I'll do some more experiments. So far it can be dangerous. Need some mana left to fling out a spell to kill gilgas. Despair doesn't hit em hard for some reason.

Ive been trying some anguish 40 boss horde. i tried a full flasked mana-surge but it got ZEROd out by an immortal lord and Arisen Ithra.

Them dex-y things pose a problem still. I wonder if we could get additional turns on mana-ray.

I haven't tried more dex gear yet. I don't have a Qatvanga leveled up to get the magic output to change up the gear

dusk osprey
sudden folio
#

forgot about that

dusk osprey
#

extra turn on Ray would make it useful on Corvus where Bloodray is usually the play

cedar skiff
#

Just to confirm: yes, you will need a full charge to get the extra turn

tight adder
#

Oh sheet i def will read this thread later at night

thorn grove
#

I love the new mini-update with the % of extra turn, and scrolls rework 🙂

I dont know if extra turn on ray would be op but i would love to see that. ( heretic corvus )

tight adder
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I thought corvus' skills already filled flasks 😮 as i used chakram and had the same rate as vestas

cedar skiff
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I can’t see how that could have happened

tight adder
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Ill check tomorrow for the numbers (i remember using chakram on previous Versions)

sudden folio
tawdry solar
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I love the scroll rework, finally my ornate AM scroll(s) get to be upgraded, they've been sitting in Keep for aeon =))

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While we're buffing AM scroll, can we buff AM Katar too? not really relate on heretic but it's a good time to do it. Please? 🙏

sudden folio
clear frost
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It would be nice if it had higher M1. I don't think it absolutely has to, but I would like that

urban delta
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I'm curious how it fairs in PvP - and how does it do in normal hordes? Raids against Summons?

tawdry solar
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Btw, anyone know the fade chance of the sigil

clear frost
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Good enough that I went back to Corvus to compare and I ended up missing Base Hera and wanting to do hordes as it instead

sudden folio
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at anguish 25 it still had all the kick. I would imagine Mana-surge in PVP on summoners be useless. The summons would have way too much defense and you wouldn't have the time to fill the flask and also buff up magic.
It's probably perfect for Raid summons and was really made for that.

tawdry solar
sudden folio
tawdry solar
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I would expect it deal much more dmg with that AL and that many buff (snotra + tmag3 and the usual)

sudden folio
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here's the gear. I Godforfged a legendary Qatvanga and went with high dex stuff which seems to be helping. More tweaking will be done. Feels freaking wild to finally do anguish 50. I dont even have 50 outside of the beta.
If I went magic gear, the damage would be a whole lot higher. I can reach about 23k magic.

Screenshot_20250203_221059_Orna_BETA.jpg
tight adder
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Charge numbers :
Ara with scroll (100%)
Chakram: 25%
Strikes 4: 25%
Vesta: 25%
Tidalseal (immunity but efficacious): 25%
Mutliflame (weakness): 50%
Heatlightning (weakness) 62%
Omniblast: 62%

Corvus + scroll(100%)
Strikes 4, Vesta and chakram: 32%
Tidalseal (immune): 32%
Fey flame: 65%
Heatlightning: 81%
Omniblast: 81%
Ultima: 41%
Galeseal (normal ele): 32%

@cedar skiff can you please check if this expected behavior or i should put it as bug

Extra note: Drain didnt fill any % and i think that's fine

Personal opinion: i think numbers are fine (although i had to use a 100% scroll) but basically you fill a flask every 4 turns maximum , I'm not sure if vesta and chakram should fill better than strikes 4 (or even if strikes should be filling at all btw)

Immunity and Normal filled the same but less vs. Weakness, i think this is fine

Extra-extra note: if you have 2 full flasks and use sigil you can get the 5 sigils using both flasks

urban delta
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Heretic looked cool before. These tweaks make it look even cooler. Also just excited for 2h and scrolls to get more use!

tight adder
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Scrolls giving ward is a super buff

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I think ward infusion could work better the other way around (use flask to recover % ward), i just dont feel.confident just getting rid of my ward for 2 flasks unless it gave a turn (i guess????)

urban delta
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I'm seeing more reason to abandon tankiness, temp buffs, and gear flexibility for extra damage, scrolls, and flask toolkits 🤔

tight adder
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Which is nice for glass-cannon ofc

urban delta
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Heh. Give base Heretic Warrior armor access jk jk

tight adder
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Yeah, so far my least favorite spell is the ward infusion

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Everything else just keeps.getting better

urban delta
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I'm intrigued. It is a ton of fun on the beta

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Losing access to half of my gear is probably the biggest thing holding me back from jumping ship

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But that's not a Heretic problem, that's a me problem

tight adder
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Half your gear? In what sense? Using diety atm i guess?

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There's some nice super raid stuff that is for "All" so that's that :p

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A.morri scroll 200% giving 400 magic and 110% ward is yum yum yummmmmm

urban delta
# tight adder Half your gear? In what sense? Using diety atm i guess?

Ye - the stuff I'd miss the most is Aaru Armor and Hyperion Helmet for armor, weapons mostly the Celestial Lute and some of the swords. Otherwise most of my standard gear is magic stuff

And yeah, I've jumped around to try stuff out a handful of times but typically just stick to Deity. It was my first t10 class and I've learned a thing or two on playing it... xD Ironically, my main builds all came from when I tried out Heretic Corvus with its current Corvus buff before Staying Power was a thing. I will say with the monster amities I pulled the other day... I don't think I'll miss Staying Power as much, not to mention Crit Poise

tight adder
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I like my aaru robe giving summons the great meditation Tbh :p

dusk osprey
urban delta
dusk osprey
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DoF might be better in an Anguish scenario, dunno

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was going back and forth between the two when doing Swansong Anguish

urban delta
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I guess it depends on how much accuracy, crit and defenses you can balance

sudden folio
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I'm running DoF Base. Corvous loses the Efficacious. Anything immune is a no go with Despair.
As soon as the 2h weapon patch comes out I'll be able to experiment with Swansong and CRIT with corvous

dusk osprey
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Ah, maybe Corvus is more of an AV4 specialist for Anguish

sudden folio
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that's what I'm thinking.
i feel I have better luck with Mana rush than mystic feather. That's why im just your typical run of the mill base mage

dusk osprey
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I think Crit Poise will just make spamming it that much nicer

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you might have enough max mana to hit 500 per turn, but I have this to get me over the edge

Screenshot_20250125_201429_Orna.png
sudden folio
urban delta
brisk salmon
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That’s wild. To see heretic do Ang50

sudden folio
tawdry solar
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Anyone feel the new Flee button is annoying? Can we go back to the old holding flee btn?

dusk osprey
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you are not alone

image.png
tight adder
clear frost
hasty heath
clear frost
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Yes. Sec.

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I don't have the Arisen Morri scrolm but I imagine it is on par with or better than Morri Scroll

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All the others are, understandably IMHO, not as good

sudden folio
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Apologies for my sassy comment above last night, Odie. This is a very fun rework so far. Thank you to you, NF Studio, and the community.

tawdry solar
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imo, the scrolls buff is the biggest hit, LOL
the mage identity is just 2nd

clear frost
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Ok, so hard talk but needs discussing - I think some of the flasks needed to be 0 turns. I am very happy about this and what it means for the glass cannon way of play.
However, I am a bit concerned that having a follower extra action paired with that might be too strong; it feels like it might be to me.
I have been exclusively a mage player since HoA came out, so I hope you can trust that this is coming from a good place and legitimate concern for balance.
Is there a way to turn off follower actions when flasks give an extra turn? Should they be turned off?

tawdry solar
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imo, the extra action of follower isn't that OP/broken for a non Valhallan class, we already have a lot of stuff that give extra turn (PR of BoF, avidity of RS, Dursa apex) and non of them make follower action OP

urban delta
tawdry solar
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Btw, i'd say this again
Since we rework scrolls including AM scrolls, can we please rework AM Katar? 🙏 🥺
Odie buff AM gears recently with new passive and added Diabolus gear and now AM scrolls get some love, Katar is the last thing in AM loot pool that is completely trash/ unusable
For the love of Orna, please do it
(Sorry this isn't relate to mage identity but this need to speak out)

clear frost
tight adder
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i haven't been paying attention to 2H weapons, but besides Qatvanga is any other weapon we currently use that got buffed? (for mages ofc)

tawdry solar
tight adder
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ohhh true true, wonder if there's going to be any new 2H weapons with new AoE skills in the future, same with scrolls etc.

hushed marlin
tawdry solar
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anyone feel like adding a flask spell to scrolls too much? because restore mana is kinda trash 😂

hushed marlin
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It would make a bunch of sense. Mana restore is detrimental to u guys even lol

waxen furnace
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༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ SUMMON UPDATE SCROLL SKILLS ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ

brazen lotus
cedar skiff
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mage patch next?

dusk osprey
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well Heretics, do we think it's ready?

tight adder
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Stat change >:D

cedar skiff
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Is a stat change more motivated in power or identity?

tight adder
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identity, in my honest opinion

sudden folio
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getting closer! I haven't had time to try out anguish towers and I still need to give these Scrolls a go.

dusk osprey
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Identity definitely - highlighting each one in a niche way makes them more unique

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Pinned was a suggestion for stat multis iirc

tight adder
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yep, this one

Ara: 0.9x HP, 1.2x Mana, 1.2x Mag, 0.9x Def, 0.9x Res
Corvus: 1.1x HP, 1.2x Def, 0.8x Res, 1.2x Dex, 1.1x Att

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i think it's really good for terms of making each class unique in terms on what would you like, atm i feel that corvus and base are super similar, or corvus being an upgrade to base, stat change could do that "OOMPH" that base needs to be more of the "balance" in between the 2 other celestials. as In my Opinion, once you get the celes, you probably won't go back to base.

brisk salmon
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I’ve liked the adjustments up until now. But, I do have one last thing. Flasks on defense? Is that going to be a future thing?

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Sad it seems the patch is going to work on one side only😫

dusk osprey
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oh yeah, that's the other thing

brisk salmon
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But most of the things I didn’t like, were addressed. Especially the scrolls and the ward infusion.

cedar skiff
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stat adjustments are now live in beta

brisk salmon
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I think that’s also a welcome change. Me personally, I would’ve still used base. But the stats changes definitely give a very welcome difference between the classes

dusk osprey
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wait are they line for line the suggested changes

cedar skiff
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no

brisk salmon
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If Odie says: “flasks can be equipped on loadout, and AI forced to use it” I’ll be like: “Fire in the hole”

dusk osprey
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they look similar so I thought I'd ask before I did the check

amber ruin
dusk osprey
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Ara: 0.9x HP, 1.2x Mana, 1.1x Mag, 0.9x Def, 0.9x Res
Corvus: 1.1x HP, 0.9x Mana, 1.4x? Att, 0.9x Mag, 1.2x Dex

brisk salmon
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🧐

dusk osprey
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My only rub is that Ara essentially got 20% more mana in exchange for 10% HP, Def, and Res

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(seeing as before it had 10% Mag already)

tight adder
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My ara lost a tiny bit of dex

dusk osprey
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are you looking at it from Corvus or base

tight adder
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Base vs Ara

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Well the 3 of them at the same time

IMG_20250204_131653.jpg
dusk osprey
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here is my Base vs Ara, level 250 unascended no gear

Screenshot_20250204_142004_Orna_BETA.jpg
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would suggest checking gear to make sure it matches

tight adder
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Im gearless

dusk osprey
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spec

tight adder
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Ah that mightve been

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Yeah i have seq in base

dusk osprey
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Sequencer is +15% Dex

tight adder
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Okok

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So

dusk osprey
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my ss is specless, on a sandbox char

tight adder
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Gotcha

dusk osprey
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I'll still stand my ground about Ara - if there's those stat debuffs, at least give it 1.2x Mag instead of 1.1x

tight adder
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agreed

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also 1.4x atk corvus dayum

dusk osprey
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1.4x sounds like a lot but it's 64 more base attack

tight adder
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yeah

dusk osprey
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I'd be happy with the Ara stuff if instead of Mag 1.1->1.2x, the 0.9s (or most) get raised to 0.95

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but at that point we're seeing less stat diversity again

tight adder
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mmm i think 0.9 is good for diversity, but yes i think mag for ara should be 1.2x

brisk salmon
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The Vesta spells consume a lot of mana, no? Maybe that’s the thought process?

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Easier to manage?

tight adder
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yeah the mana stat-up is fine as you'll require less mana-recovery items the more you grow against the high cost spells

tight adder
dusk osprey
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Those raw values don't matter, but you do need the naked stats to tell what the multiplier is

tight adder
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I see, welp, in my opinion 1.2x mag on Ara and the patch can be released tomorrow , let's gooooooooo

dusk osprey
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Yeah, that and the flask AI dealie are the main gripes left

tight adder
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oh yeah agreed

urban delta
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Haha now I want slightly more stat variations for all classes and their celestials. I like these overall!

dusk osprey
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you're in luck, now every celestial has stat variations

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Heretic Corvus was the last standing with no changes, and Heretic Ara to my knowledge was the last with only 1 change (being that 1.1x Mag)

tight adder
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there's a chart some messages above iirc

clear frost
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Testament to how good the changes are right now: I went back to live to test beta and I missed pretty much every change:

  • Ughhh I have to get to blueline
  • Immune? What do you mean immune?
  • Let me equip AV4 for towers rq. Oh wait...
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And of course, biggest one of all:

  • Goes to press flask to kill zerk RS/Immortal lord. There is no flask button.