Summoner beta changes

[toxic terrace]

not exactly a fair comparison tho

[swift crag]

skill issue

[swift crag]

i wil probably keep using fey unstable for fancyness

[toxic terrace]

idk but I like the ultima fun factor more

when rng is in your favor it goes from 0 to 100 real quick

we are an rng class after all

[toxic terrace]

ultima still puts in work against elem weak raids

against fey yeti specifically fey unstables also suck sadly

[swift crag]

lightning sigil being up while you charge fey lightining is even more rng

[toxic terrace]

I think even drakeblight is more common than that

or at least from my experience testing it

anubis doesnt spam sigils anymore so you gotta wait until the wrong one expires and then its a 1/4 chance to get the correct one

I like my all out rng loadout

the lugus procs when they occur are also very nice

[swift crag]

would be cool if you align yourself to an element and anubis chose to spam the same element sigil

[toxic terrace]

Ars vesta with and without sigil

[swift crag]

ara sigils summons when?👀

[toxic terrace]

Ultima with and without sigil and weakness

Fey inferno with and without sigil

ngl ultima looking kinda weak when you put them side by side

fey unstables also have a massive M2 range so this comparison is probably not super accurate

[swift crag]

unless blight proccs

[toxic terrace]

ara vesta might be the best actually

[swift crag]

how much mag do you have?

we can do some calcs

[toxic terrace]

6728

but for ara vesta you'd need to run 5 more ashen pinions to achieve 100% crit

[swift crag]

we will go with the test stats

40% amity?

how much was double up?

[toxic terrace]

40% amity yes

[toxic terrace]

wym double up

[swift crag]

mag11

[toxic terrace]

50%

all those screenshots were with a completely uncharged passive btw

[swift crag]

sigil 1,2 right?

[toxic terrace]

Im actually not sure if its 1.2 or 1.15

[swift crag]

fey unstable max damage on weak 1'576'141

sigil and blight add up or sigil gets ignored when blight is up?

[toxic terrace]

they stack

[toxic terrace]

btw what do you mean with weak here

full weakness or sigil?

full weakness is 1.5x I believe

for ultima its 2.4x

[swift crag]

sigil

for ultima I got 1'297'074 but I'm not sure I counted the faction bonus right

[toxic terrace]

it would be 25/8% I think

for ultima

[swift crag]

ara sigil multipliers gets counted on m1 or 2?

[swift crag]

than you would get the same as in your screen i suppose

[toxic terrace]

no idea actually

if I had to guess, M2

[swift crag]

yeah plausible

with 1 sigil ara vesta should be around 460k , I used 2,6 M1 since I don't remeber if it was 2,5 or 2,7

[toxic terrace]

its 2.5

for average damage without weakness, fey unstable and ara vesta probably come out on top

I just wonder how much the loss of magic from ashen pinions affects the ara vesta damage

[swift crag]

It wouldn't be to far behind the value I got then

[swift crag]

Pretty similar yes, also ara vesta is probably the most consistent since it's turn one

[toxic terrace]

did you already calculate ara vesta?

[swift crag]

This one

[toxic terrace]

Im leaning towards ara vesta then

however how does the quickcast math factor into this

since only ultima and fey unstable benefit from it

that means that the average damage of ultima and fey unstable would be 30% higher

most of the time you'll have a sigil with ultima as well

with fey unstable not so much

[toxic terrace]

I think it's 30% for ultima and 15% for fey unstable no? If quickcast is 30% chance, then you have a 30% chance of casting ultima in 1 turn which is technically double the dps. For fey unstable you're getting a 50% dps increase also with a 30% chance

[swift crag]

If you're lucky yes

I would say ara vesta is for consistency

Also for vesta you could add a second sigil if you're brave enough

[toxic terrace]

that doesnt stack does it?

[swift crag]

M2 is 1+x, with x number of sigils

[toxic terrace]

but even when you take into account anubis sigil and a 30% average damage increase from quickcast, ultima still loses to vesta with sigil and fey unstable

[toxic terrace]

ohh damn

Gone are the days of doing this

[swift crag]

But then you have to manage DC and sigils on enemy

Rng

[toxic terrace]

selfcast dc is so annoying

[swift crag]

I'm happy i never wasted a weapon for achlys adorns

[toxic terrace]

the long lasting sigils last pretty long at least

I guess another advantage of ara vesta is the fact that lugus procs cant occur when you charge a spell

since you spend more turns actively attacking with vesta, you get more lugus proc chances

[swift crag]

Also that

I feel ara vesta shines more in party

You can get more sigils up

[toxic terrace]

why cant anubis get some of the sigils

[swift crag]

I just want anubis to lose rebirth actually

[toxic terrace]

BP is also super nice when you party up

one person goes GSA benefactor and the other goes GSH

then you get big pacts without spending any turns to summon

[swift crag]

Nearly forgot about gsh getting access to 400k hp dragons

But you can't charge the passive that way

[toxic terrace]

not like you really need it most of the time

from my testing its just faster to not charge the passive for most raids

with the only exception being amorri and maybe normal morri

[swift crag]

We need more raids like a morri

[toxic terrace]

due to ascended summons base GS will also outdamage if you dont charge the passive.

its somewhat strange rn

atm I'm thinking:

GSH with ara vesta for ~6m health raids (fey chim, horsemen, fey yeti)
base GS BP for ~10m health raids (phoenix, the fool)
GSH BP for >20m health raids (morri, amorri, OR)

ultima for elem weak raids

in practice the sigil lasts shorter than you might think

Minimal setup BP for comparison

[green trellis]

Does elysian balance would be too strong on GS hydrus ?

With GSH being the "dps class" and EB not a big boost for ultima anymore, it would let us use more builds since we got light/dark sigil, light spell like celestial arrow and maybe more in the futur

[toxic terrace]

it would be cool ngl

even in the case of ultima I feel like it wouldnt be broken

it would be a 7.6% ultima boost or so, but as you can see from the screenshots and videos before, ultima is way behind ara vesta and fey unstable atm (unles you have weakness)

from what I saw in the heretic chat, celestial arrow is kinda weak atm, but maybe elysian balance could make it competitive

[green trellis]

Yep, and maybe sacreseal/gloomseal from deity ara

[toxic terrace]

Chakram is so fun damn

When it doublecasts you see so many hits

[toxic terrace]

Blight ultima vs blood pact, not even that far apart

[toxic terrace]

Nvm BP is faster lol

[runic dagger]

Talk about being dead, this thread

Does Jinn still have the same problems on live with the immune issue? Can't test much on beta these days so was hoping someone else did?

[toxic terrace]

last time I tested it, yes

sadly

[runic dagger]

Think they'll fix it? Should be a quick fix, comparing it with the stuff that's happening on Beo thread

[charred basalt]

This thread is pretty limited

Literally the only thing we want is more tools for GSH to play with

But like, odie isn't even in here

And the focus seems to be on beo atm

So I guess we can wait for some other patch/content update

[toxic terrace]

I already gave all the feedback I wanted to give

Nothing more we can do ig

Beo and realm seem to be the priority

Which is understandable

[open shoal]

I've been trying to test pvp in beta, gs is so op you just die instantly, it's crazy man. Can win like 9/10 fights vs non gs. Gs it's like 1/10 lol

Wonder if it'll ever get balanced

[toxic terrace]

On defense?

Protect chance is halved tho

It's 25% now instead of 50

[open shoal]

They just do so much damage it doesn't matter

This is beta so I don't have my ascensions

So everyone is equal

Get wrecked so fast lmao

[toxic terrace]

Yeah they're hella strong

[open shoal]

There's so many gs as well, if I wanna test I gotta skip so much!

Beo probably not a good match up either

A summon does more damage than my pet!

[toxic terrace]

The turn 1 potential of summons is probably too good yeah. They start to struggle when the target is buffed up but usually the fights dont last that long

[open shoal]

Yeah it's 1-2 turns before I'm dead usually haha

No wonder lower ascensions get frustrated vsing gs, it's impossible to win

[toxic terrace]

How do you even deal with gs as beo tho? Just rely on pet hitting the gs?

Or beoh

[open shoal]

So first turn you have to ward up,

[toxic terrace]

Just need more 100 al GS for a fair matchup

[open shoal]

Oh god please no lolol

So yeah gotta ward up and pray

But you usually just get statused and die through ward anyway

A few hits from a summon and your ward is gone

So 1 turn and you're dead even warded

They just do too much damage haha

[toxic terrace]

Most people seem to just pray to rgnesus and go for the oneshot turn 1, but that still only works 75% of the time and less often with protect gear

[open shoal]

Yeah that's not what I would suggest lol

But it would work out sometimes haha

Just yeah man I haven't been able to hit the gs often at all

What's the max block with augments and stuff now?

[toxic terrace]

I estimated the attack stat of a benefactor hydra to be around 10-11k, at 0al that is. No idea if it's accurate but that might be why

[toxic terrace]

It was around 60% with a sample size of 50

With a 2h celestial weapon

[open shoal]

If they had summon stats it would be 20kish? Does that seem rifht

So yeah with woo that's a few hits

Lol

A wardless class has NO chance of living a turn haha

But you are aware of that

If you run no ward you accept the risks

[toxic terrace]

I think the summon stat gear is like 40% more stats? I don't think that gear is worth it since the stats are usually garbage

[open shoal]

My alts gs is asc 40 and the damage boost is maaaaassiiiive with pet stat stuff

[toxic terrace]

I still agree that the stats are too high tho

[open shoal]

Not pet stuff, I meant summon % lol

[toxic terrace]

Summons are too good in pvp but they're still ass at raiding

[open shoal]

Took me aaaages to fix my build in live to where my alt can't easily destroy me lolol

They are slower, they're epic for low HP raids tho! Big ones like Morri are tedious af

Do you attack as well or do you mean summons only

[toxic terrace]

Pronably in order to compensate for the fact that you cant really buff summons, they just game them a ton of frontloaded stats. As a result its super strong in pvp since that's entirely turn 1-2 potentiak

[open shoal]

It's very hands on, like you gotta like DC and rhada and stuff the whole time

[toxic terrace]

If you do the dc rhada pact loop you cant really attack

[open shoal]

And it's like 500k a turn

Yeah

Honestly I'd do that if I wanna raid while doing something else

[toxic terrace]

At least bp exists

[open shoal]

I used to just tap db on my alt lol

Semi idle raids

If I wanna nuke stuff just use bp or something

But my alt doesn't even have celestials so it's like 10m maxed out bps

[weary galleon]

Reduced M1 on summons? Yes please. Let my defensive stats matter.

[open shoal]

True dat, on my main I had 12k res and dc and my alt still slaughtered me

[weary galleon]

Oof

[open shoal]

Multi tremor as well from hydra

It's wild

[weary galleon]

Even with earth resistance too?

[open shoal]

I'm earth element yeah

[weary galleon]

Oh true

That's banana's

[open shoal]

They don't care about your res lol

[toxic terrace]

They couldnt really kill him but still kinds crazy lol

[open shoal]

I know untolds build there

I do 0 to him with every single pet

Even at asc100

Cannot touch him

[weary galleon]

Sounds like beo followers could use some of that summon m1

[open shoal]

I wish

Cactus does 0 vs an al0 if they use dc and golems pretty much

[weary galleon]

Rip

[toxic terrace]

Macolyte?

[open shoal]

Hes blind

Not many people use him cause he's not reliable

Nekrosis has very bad m1 as well

He does very little damage to dc'd folks

If any of my pets could hit like a summoned hydra it would be insane

Funny that you used untolds as an example when he's one of the best players in the game like you expect to kick his ass haha, that build there has insane defensive stats

And you're using zaltys and a shield

Don't even need Charon's and you still hurt him

Insane

[toxic terrace]

The dragons didnt work super well there tho

Because of omnimancy

[open shoal]

You weren't even packing summon stats

I do 0 maxed out

[toxic terrace]

Fyi, I couldnt kill him there

[open shoal]

I wouldnt expect to beat someone with 70 more ascensions if I didn't boost my stats

[toxic terrace]

Killed all my summons and I couldnt summon more cuz no mana

[toxic terrace]

Ofc

[open shoal]

You'd beat him easy mode with summon stats, unfortunately you can't test again haha

Browse the arena for hours until he pops up lol

[toxic terrace]

Meanwhile Bp

[open shoal]

Summons can be just as effective if you run summon stats and not zaltys and shield

I do it in on my alt we basically the same al

And I have no celestial, still destroy everything instantly

[toxic terrace]

Let me try

[open shoal]

It's INSANE

55k with multi tremor vs my al100

A single hydra does 55k

Actually a bit more

Just killed an al59 deity in 1 hit

And he has ward turns

[toxic terrace]

Damn

[open shoal]

Haha see

It's mental

My main has 12k res or something but the hydras as so fn jacked they basically ignore that

Still hit for similar damage

Anyway the reason I mentioned it in this beta thread is I was trying to test beo in beta and kept getting shredded instantly lol 😂

I was running like insane morri stuff too

The ai doesn't use bp, thank god

[toxic terrace]

Only with 5 summons on the field

[open shoal]

Does it? Damn

Wouldnt know, never survived that long hahahaha

[toxic terrace]

what do you guys think of the fact that the GSH passive was nerfed in 2 ways? The number of summon deaths needed to max out the passive went from 4 to 5, but it also provides a 75% stat boost instead of 100%. I personally think it should have been one or the other

if I had to pick between those 2, I'd go for 4 summon deaths to reach 75%

[charred basalt]

Well if odie thought it was too powerful, so be it

[toxic terrace]

Im actually starting to believe the new GSH is possibly worse than the current one

[charred basalt]

I think it's still a pretty good boost, we just need less tedious ways to get it

[charred basalt]

Nah no way lmao

[toxic terrace]

nah Im serious

[charred basalt]

It lost nothing thougj

Right?

[toxic terrace]

I'm trying out current GSH in amorri and it does better than base GS actually

what often happened in the beta was that I ended up in super sketchy situations because summons were dying too quickly

because ascendant summons is gone

[charred basalt]

Oh ascended summons yeah that one sucks really bad

But it affects you more than most people I guess

[toxic terrace]

in most of the amorri runs I did in the beta, 1 or 2 summons would die because they were too squishy to take a hit from morri

[charred basalt]

I have 15 al, I doubt new hydrus is going to be worse for me

[toxic terrace]

true ig

current GSH doesnt really need life pacts

beta probably does need them

it makes sense to charge the passive I guess, but in practice you just lose damage when one of your big summons dies

[charred basalt]

Charging passive is pretty unsatisfying too

And pretty risky

Since you aren't doing damage or anything and are leaving yourself vulnerable

But I guess it's warranted cause the dmg boost is pretty significant

It's like a phoenix almost

But yeah ascended summons being gone is pretty sad

[toxic terrace]

it's also anti-synergetic with BP imo

if you summon skeletons to charge the passive, sometimes the raid boss just wont kill them

so you cant summon your big summons

or you need to spend extra turns charon pacting them

the skeletons work better with chakram, vesta or ultima where you dont need to summon anything other than the skeletons

there's just not really a fast way to get rid of 3 skeletons

thats also why I wanted a pact that kills the 3 weakest summons

although it'd be super specific lol

the best way to charge the passive imo is to just let the boss kill them, that doesnt really cost you any turns and also doesnt put you at risk. Sac pact 2 is just suicide and using achlys pact means you have to summon 4 big summons instead of 3. Charon pacting one by one sucks for obvious reasons

however that obviously depends on rng

(like anything GS related )

average GSH player

[runic dagger]

Y'know, it would be nice if that's where we get a pseudo-AoE for GS; sacrifices ≤ 3 summons on the field

[toxic terrace]

it'd probably suck as a pseudo AoE option but I guess it's still better than a pact that doesnt do any damage when sacrificing summons

[toxic terrace]

Gsa bene jinn in beta

The issue is still there

[swift crag]

Ancient jinn using his ancient dumbness

[potent olive]

Back in my day vulcan was weak to fire

Ancient Jinn, probably

[charred basalt]

Dude is so ancient he has dementia now

[open shoal]

that got a giggle

[sly eagle]

Looks like the pacing that nf intends for summon builds

[charred basalt]

My final thoughts on GS beta changes

PVP
-Blood pact nerf was needed, although im not sure if lowering M1 to 3 will be a big enough nerf given the insanely high numbers you can get
-Battalions nerf is good, given how insanely rng heavy summoner was in defense

PVE/Hydrus changes
-Hydrus getting increased stats is really good, given it is more of a player damage class compared to base GS and GSA
-Battalions buff was pretty much necessary, nothing more to say
-The new stacking passive is really cool in theory, but feels really tedious to charge, given how many turns killing your summons + summoning new ones takes, and i dont think the nerfs from 4 sacrifices/100% boost to 5 sacrifices/75% boost were needed
-GSH losing ascended summons feels really bad, your summons are extremely squishy, and with enough AL base GS deals more blood pact damage(without charging the passive), which i feel like shouldnt be a thing

Now, what I think is still missing(I wont go into detail about pvp, because i believe pvp is in a pretty bad state across all classes right now, so ill stick to pve)
-Summon focused builds still feel really overpowered with no gear investment and not powerful enough when you fully spec into them(beo had an issue like this, but bonds fix that), this is because summon boosting gear doesnt scale with quality, and all summon stat boosters are balanced to be additive. When running GSA with benefactor spec, using more summon boosting equipment will give you such a small boost that its basically always better to go for defensive gear so you alteast dont die.
-Summoners need more tools, especially GSH. Given the new passive that buffs you when you sacrifice summons, we could really use some pacts that kill your summons to deal damage, or some new summons that self destruct or something, current GSH feels like its missing something.

Also, if anyone that doesnt main GS but plays it from time to time has something to play, please do

like how you find summon builds compared to your main and stuff like that

[toxic terrace]

@runic dagger got anything to add for auriga? I believe you said you thought the rhada pact DC loop was too monotone?

for the 'summoners need more tools' point

[runic dagger]

DC + RS2 + Rhada isn't the best cuz it's effective for the summoner play style, it's the best by default which is a whole different thing.

The aforementioned loop, which is all GSA has for now in terms of effectiveness, is just bare bones for what the variant could offer, going so far as to say that the class itself isn't living up to its potential.

Increasing the summon stats via Auriga passive would add on to the monotony of the class. To that end, the bare minimum is that summons should provide more interesting mechanics that bounce off each other to actually justify the creation of said class (golems giving wards to other summons, a summon that consumes others to strengthen itself/deal damage, a summon that actively taunts enemies but has no offensive capabilities, just to suggest a few) but all we got this patch, which is understandable given the attention you guys gave to other classes, is a fix to the behavior of Phaethon, which is only half the problem, the other half being the abysmal rates.

It doesn't help the GSA experience much outside of endless and maybe OR if you're pushing it, since for the former, you can just take them a few floors and then pact them out after, making do with what they gave your summons since it's just not realistically efficient to bank in on hopes of them giving your summons all the buffs they'd need, and for the latter in that OR gives you more room for them to buff and fail but only up to a certain threshold; both approach quickly falls apart in their respective fields due to scaling enemies and amount of turns taken, and you'll find that you'd face more trouble than they're worth with that.

GSH should get the stat stick summons since they're all about player power anyway while GSA should be given dynamic summons to compensate for all the things that their class doesn't allow them to do as effectively. Hoping all of this is considered.

[toxic terrace]

I also still think the rates on eos blessing itself are too low

[runic dagger]

It should be a guaranteed single up and somewhere around 15-20% for double ups imo

[toxic terrace]

it takes too many turns before you get anything meaningful, and that slot that phaethon uses could've been used for a dps summon so the overall benefit you gain from it is questionable

[sly eagle]

GSA needs to be able to give out buffs as AoEs

A buff to give the whole squad atk/mag 1, which chances of 2

[runic dagger]

Watch out, if you're not clear enough, it'll be given worse rates

[sly eagle]

Something that doesn't require eventlocked fomo BS

[odd edge]

Aren't we already suffer enough?

[loud nova]

It would be nice to get a skill like call of dum for gs so it can help setting up in endless

Like all summons defend and protect for x amout of turns but u can't use it in pvp

[charred basalt]

Or maybe just a toggle able skill that stops summons from acting

Could go a step further and make it give you a buff to give something spicy for non summon builds

[loud nova]

Something like that it would be really useful for endless

[toxic terrace]

also for codexing

also summon codexing when

[loud nova]

Yes that as well

[sly eagle]

#1097566876395118632 message

...so how bout them Rhada Pact fixes? 👉👈

[runic dagger]

Wow

Sure hope GSA gets that "similar ease" treatment as well

[sly eagle]

Same. I want decent raiding ability please.

[runic dagger]

Right now, the variant and the summon play style as a whole is of "you put in the time and resources but the play style doesn't respect your time still" in terms of raids and ORs.

Hoping we get tweaks to the point that ALs aren't needed just to reach average level with said play style.

[sly eagle]

https://tenor.com/view/doubt-samurai-jack-hope-gif-22333046

[runic dagger]

Just saw @toxic terrace clears on HoF, can't come close to that AT ALL with GSA/summon build

[toxic terrace]

I think you still need a couple hundred al more to be on par with other classes

[potent olive]

Reminder that the point of the balance patch is to make it so that all classes are capable of doing content fine.
Increasing speed or fun is not in the scope of the patch.
GS is quite capable of killing raids, even if at a painstakingly slow speed

[runic dagger]

I wouldn't chalk summon-build tackling ORs as a task done with ease

[potent olive]

it's a matter of several hours, yes

OR does last 3 days though

[runic dagger]

Yeah, but necessitating that amount of time compared to all other classes that can get it done in a few mins to a couple of hrs tops is a massive gap that goes outside of "doing a content fine"

[potent olive]

While blood pact builds still exist, it is not of utmost importance to fix I don't think

Don't get me wrong, I agree with you

but you can't have GS:A without having base GS. And base GS is pretty good at Blood Pact raiding

[toxic terrace]

I guess, but them again, I feel like avidity and bestial bonds don't only increase clear rate, they also increase speed

[potent olive]

So you can just. Do that. While using summon based builds for other content

[toxic terrace]

||ultima tho ||

[runic dagger]

Kinda feels bad to allot all these ALs for a play style that has a dedicated celestial variant to it of all things, only for the way to tackle a certain content to be changing to a different variant, imo. Base GS is fine with BP yes, but I feel like it undermines the issue with summon build still

[toxic terrace]

I do still agree with grim though. You'd think that if they bothered to make a celestial class focused on summon builds, it'd at least be a viable playstyle. It's not viable in raids imo, not at the endgame at least

Then agaim, I also expected that hydrus would be a more versatile class than just a pvp and raiding class

[runic dagger]

And it trips and falls way, WAY behind other classes on dungeon horde.

The way both classes are currently, they're more like fragmented pieces of the same class rather than side grades that could stand and tackle all content on their own

[toxic terrace]

Hydrus stil doesnt really work in towers and dungeons

That's what I personally dont like about the GS celestials. It feels like you're forced to play BP for raiding, but you're also forced into summon builds for towers and dungeons because BP doesnt work there

It doesnt really feel like you have a choice in playstyle

[runic dagger]

It's more "which one works" and if it doesn't, just switch to the other variant, which doesn't really fit the bill, being a side grade and all that it's supposed to be

[toxic terrace]

Horde is still something I swap to heretic for

Auriga does orn boss horde decently well, but fast clears are simply mot possible as GS. Also tried to make hydrus bard work in the beta but it sucks sadly (because no perma dc lol)

[runic dagger]

And currently, just to make the variant/playstyle work for those content (Raids and ORs), you'd need to throw lots of AL just to get barely above subpar performance at best

[toxic terrace]

I still feel like hydrus isn't going to be great after the buffs. It's going to be a bit better at raiding (if you charge the passive that is), it's good at pvp but I don't think it's going to be viable for anything else than raids and pvp

I don't know if celestial classes are supposed to be viable across all content but hydrus falls short in that regard still imo. BP is not really viable in anything other than raids and pvp. Even with the passive it lacks the stats to clear horde with mage's dance, and in towers you dont have enough time to charge the passive. I feel like I've already said these things before though so I'll refrain from going further in depth

As soon as you start doing heretic things with hydrus, like mage's dance, you start to notice how far behind it is because it doesnt have perma dc

[little dust]

For towers would sac pact 2 turn 1 make you too squishy?

Not that it would do much because you only have 2 summons, nvm

[toxic terrace]

Yes that would destroy you obviously

Gs normally only survives because of summons

[little dust]

Though tbf it's not that easy for a Heretic or realm to charge the passive in towers

[charred basalt]

if the scope of the patch is to allow the class to be more inline with others in terms of content being doable we cant complain

we can do pretty much everything really well except horde

its just really slow

[toxic terrace]

Yes but they have 2x stats from phoenix lol

[charred basalt]

but if thats not being taken into consideration then rip i guess

[runic dagger]

I still disagree with that "do really well" part or even just doing stuff well when it comes to anything raid

It's just horrible😩

[little dust]

But it feels slightly odd that for other things like dungeons heretic gets a passive that charges passively and requires effectively no effort

[charred basalt]

well its really safe but really slow

but its definetly doable you cant say we have any content we cant do

[toxic terrace]

Meanwhile gilga has a 43s amorri clear. Faster than my glass cannon bp run and much much safer because of 200-300k ward

[runic dagger]

I dunno about it being safe either; considering all the other changes in beta, not just Amorri but every WRB with CDG (or any other guaranteed hit skill) would completely throw that notion out in ORs

And the worst part is you can't AL your way out of that

[toxic terrace]

Yeah gsh passive doesnt feel like a passive tbh

You have to actively charge it

[little dust]

I'd be ok with that if it wasn't just us

I mean realm and beo don't have it quite as easy

[runic dagger]

It's really more like an extension of an active skill at this point rather than a fully pledged class passive

Closest comparison I could think of off the top of my head is that low-tier skill that needs you to be on low health to deal more damage

Which has an active and passive component on a usable skill

[sly eagle]

And? RS and Beos were technically able to do content fine, just were more likely to die while being slow. And real talk, if you can't use something on a celestial class, why are you recommending that something by recommending to swap out of the celestial class and completely miss the point? Yay cool go use Ultima and BP, the pseudo heretic playstyle, while the abilities and celestial classes dedicated to making summons be the front and center are just...what? Doomed?

[toxic terrace]

I would like to know the intention behind celestial classes. Are they intended to expand on the classline as a whole, or are they meant to be standalone classes that should be able to do all content by themselves? Base GS was able to do all content because it could use both the BP and summon playstyle. So in raids, where summons might be too slow, you could use BP. In towers and dungeons where BP isn't amazing you could use summons.

However with the celestial classes this doesn't really work anymore. Auriga cant use BP so it's slow in raids. Hydrus can't really use summons so it doesn't work well in horde dungeons, and towers as GSH is a nightmare

[potent olive]

It's the more likely to die part that is being adressed. And I do think celestial classes should be niche things - variants that are better at one thing and worse at another, so that swapping between them is valuable.

I use Auriga for everything other than pvp and raids and am fairly content with it

[ionic verge]

Not every Celestial class (nor class period) is expected to excel or perform the same in every piece of content.

Celestials do require owning the base class, it would be considered normal to swap between celestial classes and base classes to complete different types of content.

[sly eagle]

I don't know why this keeps tipping into Auriga. While Auriga is part of it, The bottom line factor in all of this is Rhada Pact and interactability with summons.

Swapping between OG and Auriga is not going to change the lack of multipliers that Summon focused builds have access to. Why is it that I must be forced into a pseudo heretic build when it comes to content outside of towers and gauntlets because apparently it's impossible to consider that the sheer amount of RNG, inconsistency, and fomo event items required to get a summon build to even be among the average when it comes to damage and pacing? Hell that was one of the biggest issues with Beos focusing on follower damage, was it not?

[runic dagger]

Following up on @sly eagle's statement regarding the state of the changes made (or lack thereof) to GS in beta, let me just extend the take to the bigger picture in that NOTHING, absolutely NONE of what the GS celestial variants offer makes them objectively better in the play style they specialize in compared to base GS.

On Auriga's side, it's got:
Pros:

• 20% additive summon stat boost (so a barely noticeable boost at best)
• a broken horse
• "Smarter" A.I.
• Ability to wear warrior gears
  Cons:

• Drastically reduced Pact capabilities
• Squishy

On Hydrus' side, it's got:
Pros:

• Slightly increased pact capabilities
• A budget DC with extra steps
• Can wear thief gear
  Cons:

• An entire level lower battalion
• Drastically reduced summon stats
• No Ascended Summons
• Squishy

Base GS:
Pros:

• Can use both variants' summons
• Can use pacts just as effectively (if not more due to Ascended Summons that they have)
• Enjoys Battalions 3
  Cons:

• Can't wear warrior/thief gears
• Squishy

Warrior/Thief gears are easily matched by what [All Classes] gears has (already tried lots of builds with the former two and the results are gimmicky at best) and with the variants' release coming hand in hand with the celestial weapons and adorns, you can easily cover the shortcomings and weaknesses of base GS, you CAN'T do the same thing as effectively on its variants.

Base GS and Auriga can gear for pact effectiveness, but the latter needs a lot more going for it to be even comparatively effective. Base GS and Hydrus can gear up for summon stats, but the latter would not have the same level of battalion (and stats for that matter) for that to actually matter. Not to mention that the work around for the variants essentially gives up the whole reasoning for variants to exist anyway, which is their play style. Base GS though? It's got, at worst, those issues mildly inconveniencing them while enjoying the best of both worlds.

.
The fact that the best advice to tackle the issues of the side grades is to 'switch to OG GS' speaks a lot about how the variants themselves fall short of fulfilling their intended purpose, being side grades with their play style, because as they currently are, they're more of flare picks that's a few steps behind compared to OG with nothing noteworthy in their kit to make up for that.

And on the summon-build centric play style, that issue is dialed up to eleven; speed isn't the whole issue, it's just the most obvious one that bleeds into the whole class which skews the perspective and is handwaved as the class was supposed to be "slow and safe".

One example of this where said approach should have been excelling is Other Realms, since the massive HP of the boss would logically make one of the largest stage for your play style to shine; that should've been what happens on paper but in practice? With the advent of scaled up, guaranteed hit skills, anything with those, even on lower tier, would be enough to kill the GS since not only does it have to tackle the enemy with its slow approach, it also has to deal with the longer exposure to the aforementioned enemy scaling which increases the risk of you getting hit with one of its attacks/ults; an issue that other classes, without the "safe but slow" approach, can easily coast through with their multi-million hits. At that point, you really just wonder why even make the class adhere to the "safe but slow" when it falls short on the 'safety' category.

.
There's also another example which will be relevant in the coming months which is events that are on the same level as Draconian Era; that is, dungeons being riddled with enemies that have 200k+ HP. At that point, when the battles take longer, you wouldn't have much options to work with in terms of speeding up the content or raising your protect chance since they can just as take down your summons and/or hit you since the battle isn't anywhere near ending due to them having large HP to take numerous heavy hits. It's a weaker example but all the same, it breaks down the notion of "safe but slow".

So really...
If "safe but slow", why not safe but slow still?

[ionic verge]

Perhaps this is becoming another thread?

[runic dagger]

Not at all actually, this is tackling the GS' tweaks (or lack thereof) since the issues it faces isn't strictly limited to just speed, which was the main reason given why all the other suggestions/feedbacks fell short

The only attention given to summon-build (which isn't even exclusive to said play style/variant) is the A.I. fix to Phaethon, which is only half the problem, the other half being the skill's abysmal rates

[ionic verge]

Perhaps you can edit your post so I can understand where these comments attach to the current beta changes for summoner - they seem a little more structured as general comments about your feeling of the classes in general, hence it seeming like a different conversation to the current beta changes.

[runic dagger]

Changed the heading since it initially seemed disconnected, thanks!

[charred basalt]

yeah this wasnt a beta changes post

i agree with all the stuff but this is #1101026806489939968 or something

we barely got touched this beta

so i assume odie doesnt want to shake things up with summoner yet

[toxic terrace]

We've already given our thoughts on the changes in this thread, but I guess it got lost in all the messages. The main things were:

• Despite the AI buffs, phaethon is still not great because eos blessing itself has very low proc rates (25% per single up and 4% per double up iirc). It often takes too long to get something meaningful from it so it doesn't really seem to be better than just using an additional dps summon. Suppose you have 4 hydras and 1 phaethon. Since phaethon itself doesnt really do damage, you need to get on average a 25% damage buff on all 4 hydras combined to match the dps of 5 unbuffed hydras , due to the low eos blessing rate and mixed atk/mag nature of some summons like hydra, you're rarely getting that. Phaethon only seems to be worth it for arisen morrigan or other very long raids where the additional setup time might be worth it.
• GSH passive doesn't really feel like a passive at all. If you use ancient dragon and hydras they'll rarely ever die naturally unless you're fighting arisen morrigan. Instead, you have to actively summon low health summons (summon dead) in order to charge the 'passive' which doesn't really make it passive imo. The summon dead strategy is also anti-synergetic with blood pact raiding since it clutters the field with skeletons that you can't get rid of easily without also killing your high health summons that you need for blood pact.

[charred basalt]

GSH passive needing setup and you actively killing your summons is cool imo, but it just doesnt feel worth it

this is mainly because we have a 1000 turn setup with beefy summons taking 4 turns to cast

not mainly, thats literally the only issue

i cant think of a way to make the passive feel more satisfying to charge without odie adding new skills

be it summons or pacts

but i dont think we are a priority rn so i guess we will have to wait

[runic dagger]

This is completely missing the point imo
Point is that NF didn't deem GS/GSA troubled enough to receive a fix in this balance patch, going by the previous graph that they released but there's lots of content to be tackled where the experience proves otherwise

It doesn't help that at surface level, speed appears to be the main issue when it's really just the tip of the iceberg

[charred basalt]

Yes but nf wants feedback on the current changes, not suggesting new ones

[vale chasm]

(⁠ノ⁠^⁠_⁠^⁠)⁠ノ ＼⁠(ﾟ⁠ｰﾟ⁠＼⁠)
Maybe the percentages on Blessing of EOS could be upped a little bit, but all I really play is GSA/Bene in all content now and I'm not even max level to have everything yet.

[sly eagle]

Feedback on current changes, okay.

• Current Battalions nerf will change nothing due to how high chances of it activating can be when geared toward it. It's still going to be one of the best options for GS by a large margin and the majority will still complain about it
• BP's damage was indeed an issue, but the biggest issue was it's ability to pretty much ignore defenses. Despite how it misses, there's still no real counter play to this aside from rng, Orna's favorite thing.
• Current changes do not address long standing issues about the class that have plagued it since day 1. Current slow pacing is unrewarding. Lack of interactivity. Also still requires an immense amount of event gear to even help mitigate some issues.

[river marsh]

I agree with your assessment, and also feel that the battalions nerf is likely insufficient, going to have to see how it play out, and hopefully makes a difference.

I'm more concerned about the summons to be honest. Like OG ss3, which was nerfed, summons ignore def/res. It makes 0 sense to me that a 0 asc GS can shred asc 100+ players with their summons. That seems not right. I'm hopeful adjust them to factor in def/res is on the table if battalions block reduction turns out to be insufficient.

[vale chasm]

I don't think Summons ignore defenses, it's the stats of the summoned monsters being inflated to such high levels that they are overshadowing said defenses.

After you add up all the summon buffs, if you put each % in terms of an AL level, suddenly you're facing a 200+ AL Arcane Troll.

[runic dagger]

A what...?

[vale chasm]

I picked the troll because that's the first one that came to mind but seriously. The base Arcane Troll is lv 225-250
You take it's stats and boost it by 200% or more GSA, Benefactor, Charon's staves etc, +Ascended summons it has crazy stats after that.

Each "summon stats" boost is essentially 1%, the same as AL. Therefore the "200+ AL Troll" comment.

Monsters in towers and Endless Dungeons scale with each floor, just like they're getting a hidden AL each floor.

I could be wrong in my calculations, and please someone check me if I am.
So here is my lv232 summoned Troll vs 233 regular Troll. Just looking at the HP, that is a 546% difference.

[sly eagle]

I've seen summons 0ed out plenty of times by gilgas and deities. I'm not sure if that's a summon issue or player issue.

[potent olive]

100% (base) + 200% (GS) +130% (benefactor) +20% (auriga) + 40% (gear) = 490% stats
490 x 1.12 (ascensions) = 548.8%

[vale chasm]

40% from my Charon's Staff full of Goats eyes.

@potent olive

548.5% that's rather close.

That's scary close actually...

Hmmm it should be slightly higher because I'm AL12.

[river marsh]

I would like to see proof of that, I'm an asc 74 gilga with 300k+ ward and near 9k def and they shred me man.

I know of 100+ asc, with more than 12k def and still, into the shredder they go

[potent olive]

@vale chasm updated math

[vale chasm]

Thank you, that's amazing.

[potent olive]

Oh

You're AL12

Could've sworn I had seen 13

Re-updated

[vale chasm]

Wow that's almost exactly with my initial calculation.

[potent olive]

It'd be the same if the trolls were the same level

[vale chasm]

Well maybe in a future balance update, if the summons are taken another look at and are found to be overpowered in PvP situations, maybe it's the base stats of the monster that would need to be separated into a PVP version of that summon skill.

In my experience as a Summoner I PVP the least out of all the modes of play that we have available, I cannot talk from personal experience of defeating high AL players.

But based on the math of how summons are boosted, players are facing some truly powerful beasts.

[swift crag]

You sure they're not killing you with blood pact? I also got 0ed pretty often by well built gilga/dieties

[burnt crag]

If they nerf Summons More they should atleast add scaling and a viable way To buff them 🙂

[charred basalt]

wdym nerf summons more

i dont think they got nerfed

[burnt crag]

Their Stats was nerfed In pvp and batallions were nerfed

So i do call it a nerf

[charred basalt]

oh for pvp yeah but that is extremely well deserved

also pvp and pve now have different balancing

[burnt crag]

Also buff To direct Hit skills Is a nerf To summoners

[charred basalt]

so a nerf in pvp shouldnt mean a buff in pve

[open shoal]

The summon pvp damage nerf is still in beta right?

[charred basalt]

how so?

ah you mean

the perfect shot

[burnt crag]

Ignores battallions

[open shoal]

free floor 1000 endless and they still want more pve damage lmao

[charred basalt]

i am one of them and i can confirm we need mroe pve damage, endless isnt the whole picture

raids and horde suck ass

[burnt crag]

Yea

[runic dagger]

You, uhhh, you're aware that it took a lot more than just that, no?

[open shoal]

lol

[charred basalt]

endless is broken because snapshotting is a broken mechanic and you cant use it in any other content

[runic dagger]

No other mode in the game allows you to switch in and out of the battle with different specs/gears and retain that for the rest of the journey

[charred basalt]

and it just so happens that when you have a full party to stack every buff in the game on its really op

[burnt crag]

If endless was made so that you cannot leave it would be differend

[open shoal]

I got a al41 gs alt so I know what its capable of

[toxic terrace]

endless is the only activity where you can reliably buff summons, that's why it's so insane

[open shoal]

Do you want gs to dominate every single game mode?

[burnt crag]

No

[runic dagger]

Where was that stated though?

[toxic terrace]

I wont deny that GS endless is crazy

[burnt crag]

I want it To be viable

[toxic terrace]

but seriously, give summon build raiding a try

it's worse than pet raiding lol

[open shoal]

I did, works well for low hp raids not too bad

but takes ages on big raids

[runic dagger]

Go with it on ORs and high end raids

[open shoal]

I did

[burnt crag]

And you still think its ok

[open shoal]

I might have some vids, it was like 500k-1m a turn, so slow compared to BP and Ultima yeah definitely

[runic dagger]

1hr and 30+ mins on Morri OR smh

[burnt crag]

And then amorri uses the perfect Hit and you dead

[open shoal]

Oh and the asc 100 12k def/res thing stated earlier was my alt killing my main in 2 turns with 2 summons with 12k res/def

But thats in live

[runic dagger]

That's on PvP though, no? With the split balancing, might as well treat PvP GS as a different entity altogether

[charred basalt]

i dont want summoner to dominate every gamemode, the only thing i really want is some gear to strive to get

i believe that kinda used to be an issue with pet builds before too

rn i dont think i can get any gear that increases my summons offensive capability in any meaningful way

but thats just my 2 cents, this isnt beta related to be fair

[open shoal]

GS dominates, maybe a more relaxing raiding build isnt that bad?

[charred basalt]

we already voiced our thoughts on the beta changes

[open shoal]

Summons faster than beo lol

[burnt crag]

Um no

[open shoal]

Not that that matters

Oh well 😄 have fun guys

[runic dagger]

Not anymore

[burnt crag]

When the beo rework hits live Summon builds go down

[charred basalt]

these discussions are so pointless guys

[burnt crag]

Pointless Or nah its still discussion

[charred basalt]

i feel like the same 5 points are being repeated literally ever since gs got released

okay that just a dumb statement

[burnt crag]

It is In fact

But if the 5 points are always being talked about. Doesn't it say anything about the state of gs

[charred basalt]

yes it does we all know its broken

complaining wont fix it though, and we have given enough feedback

[runic dagger]

Gonna turn it back to stay on topic with this

On GSA's side of things;

Please increase the rates on Phaethon, it spamming buffs isn't enough to make it worth being a celestial skill still

And a small tweak but please make the Auriga's AI passive extend to Jinn. As it is, it's still using immuned moves on already codexed enemies

[burnt crag]

If patheon had better rates. It would fix few things

[vale chasm]

How would we want to balance this skill? Lower the to 20%s and bump the to 6%s ?

[runic dagger]

Imo 100% on the single ups is the bare minimum to make Phaethon's state (being a T10's celestial summon and all) actually justified

[vale chasm]

Just keep in mind that the monster version will get the same buff.

Because summons are literally just summoning the codex enemy. So Titan Eos would be also getting a buff, which could unbalance that Boss fight in Towers.

[runic dagger]

Exactly why one of the main gripes with Phaethon is why was it a copy-pasted summon instead? They made Ancient Dragon unique but somehow this one didn't get the same treatment even though it's a T10's celestial summon?

[vale chasm]

Well as far as I'm aware, currently you can't encounter an Ancient Dragon anywhere in PvE yet.
But if you could it would have the same exact skill set the summon has, because that's the dev design that they chose. I guess it could even go into the Elysian Summoner lore if more of that was available in-game but only time can reveal that.

That skill set difference is what separates Followers from Summons. Followers are designed with similar skills to their base monster with some tweaks and additions that they might not naturally have, but summons ARE the base monster.

[charred basalt]

thats true

which should take priority though

monsters being balanced around them being enemies, or summons?

i think in the case of eos it should be balanaced around the player summon for sure

[heady current]

chimera has a different skill set

[vale chasm]

Does it?

This is on live, did beta change?

[toxic terrace]

The pet has a different skillset than the monster is what he meant

[vale chasm]

Yes, followers and summons skill sets are not exactly the same by design.

[heady current]

no, i was referring to the summon

i thought chimera doesnt have one of the miasma skills

but i was wrong

btw, did you notice that you get the pet back when you switch from a summoner class?

[vale chasm]

You bring up a good point though, when did they add Miasma II to the chimera?

[toxic terrace]

Yeah its so nice

Really nice to swap to heretic when I'm on the move

[nimble shard]

Nerf BP M1

[vale chasm]

Didn't they already lower it in this beta?

[nimble shard]

Not realy

Still a lot more than Ultima II

Looks like infinie

Like before

[vale chasm]

Well, if it continues to be an issue they'll look at it again. I don't use the skill anyway lol

[nimble shard]

@toxic terrace

[charred basalt]

its probably bugged

it supposed to have an m1 of 3 now in pvp stated in the patch notes

but in practice it doesnt

[nimble shard]

I go to 85000 res and let's try again Ultima II vs BP

[charred basalt]

post it in the beta bug reports

[toxic terrace]

Dont have time rn

[weary galleon]

Remove the M1 of summons, make player stats matter

[nimble shard]

Remove the class*

[sly eagle]

Remove one shot meta

Pretty sure summoner will balance out once that's done

[weary galleon]

that would be preferred

[runic dagger]

Beo/Summoner Fomorian gears exist

[swift crag]

The main problem is the 130% summon stats out of the bat from benefactor imo, instead of that a passive that works like the maji one could work better like " as your mana diminish your summon spells/skills are gonna be stronger " that way you get:

• summons stat aren't going to be higher, especially hp
• in pvp you start at full mana, preventing excessive strength at start

It would also be a nerf to gs endless btw

[toxic terrace]

I think it's the defensive side that needs to be nerfed

If a heretic, beo or whatever can oneshot me on defense if I dont get the oneshot, why shouldnt GS be able to do that too? It's just that protect chance makes it too hard to get the oneshot on GS

[swift crag]

This would also nerf defensive side since summons would have way less hp/def/res

[toxic terrace]

Your suggestion would make summon raiding builds even worse though

You can maybe precharge that for world raids but that obviously wouldnt work for kingdom raids

[swift crag]

Something always gets in the way

[runic dagger]

Nahh, I don't think this is it; you'd be set back way more considerably than other classes with similar passive since if your summons get killed, not only would you have to deal with reduced defenses and offense, but you'd leave yourself a lot more vulnerable since you'd have allot 1 turn more for pots, summon on top of that, and then deplete your mana again for the summons to gain their strengths back and make the passive worth it, not to mention being unable to use DC + RS2 + Rhada reliably; alternatively, you could use amities but that'd kill build variety (unless you're lucky with amities or something)

Something that'd complement the main play style but also unique to the class similar to how RS dealt with their issues and how Beos got their buffs would be more like it

[supple fable]

still, it's a fact that benefactor makes summon stat% gear even more irrelevant.

[burnt crag]

Imo they should rework the "Summon stat" itself maybe remove the stat increase and swap it with easier buffing?

Giving the Summons spesific roles? Like golems should be the tanky guys Who takes the hits

[regal glacier]

The lower hp on sum is okay, but the issue I feel should be addressed is 100k summon hp.

I understand why it's like that, bc BP casting depends on sum hp.

But like make the summons super weak in terms of def, or lower hp and change BP scaling to accommodate for lower summon hp

Now that summoner is easily targetable this opinion might change.

Kay now to leave thread, good luck with yalls balance

[runic dagger]

Imo, that falls into split balancing which is easy enough to do since they did it for Battalions, but if summons are your problem, which I kind of find weird since all you'd need to now is focus on the more easily targetable summoner, then just gear up with the Beo/Summoner Fomorian kit.

[regal glacier]

I mean yea, if single target pets could target the actualy summoner. This is why some of us beos want a mark skill

[runic dagger]

They could target the summoner since they ignore Battalions, yeah
The question of if they would is a different matter entirely that pet users are all too familiar with, I assume?

Feels more like it's a matter of follower AI than summoner needing nerfs on that end though

[regal glacier]

[PvE/PvP] When under an AI bonus, followers will now prioritize dealing damage when opponent HP is low
Who'll have less HP: GS or his Hydra?

My opion changed

This good ai balance

No longer opinionated from previous statement

Also odie praise

[toxic terrace]

4000 iq GS mains using glashtyn with less hp than them:

[sly eagle]

Pretty much

Just max out battalions again because lol apparently 70~% instead of 95~% chance of procing it is balanced

[swift crag]

They could hard cap it at 50% for PvP

25% base + 13% chestplate + 2% per augments (12% with a 2h)

[uneven anvil]

Well

Its about followers

Not summons

Sadly

[night osprey]

when gilga and heretic's second chances have 25% chance to work, sure.
until then, lol no.

[swift crag]

Those are at 50% for first procc iirc

[nimble shard]

No infinite M1 anymore

[deft frigate]

thank goodness

[charred basalt]

Now let's see if the community stops hating

[deft frigate]

nah, BP is a concern for GS attackers.

non-GS players never interact with it really outside of live pvp -- ultimately they'll see that summons still have the same HP and protect% is an invisible value. It's possible that it won't be super clear that things have even changed that much from a non-GS perspective.

[toxic terrace]

Funnily enough, the people that used GS to fight GS in wars might struggle a lot more with that strat

If you dont have a cele weapon and GSH your bp hits like a wet noodle

[charred basalt]

BP is a concern for high level people that lose to low level GS cause they don't care about defenses, no?

[heady current]

ah yes, that must be the reason

[deft frigate]

infinite pierce BP is a concern for high level GSes, because it's way too much power way too freely given. it devalues everything else.
but now -- it's not absurdly high pierce. 🙏

[toxic terrace]

so we did some testing. Turns out GSH passive somehow grants less of an increase for blood pact the more al you have. @swift crag got 1.87x more damage with 17 al, I got about 1.74x damage at al38. @wraith fable 1.78x with 31 al, and at 0al it was 2x for akabane. For me it also was around 1.74x with ara vesta and for grampasso it was 1.78 with viperseal 2. Not sure if the weirdness is BP specific then

seems like the more ascension levels you have the less benefit you get from the passive

[potent olive]

Are you comparing between base GS and GSH?

[toxic terrace]

no

we are all GSh

[potent olive]

Yeah but the 1.87x damage increase

is compared to what

[toxic terrace]

no passive and with passive

[potent olive]

aah

[toxic terrace]

I have no idea what's going on

[potent olive]

those numbers make it feel like the passive is additive

which is odd

[toxic terrace]

but then shouldn't I be seeing more benefit from it?

me and grampasso had exactly the same summon hp (ancient dragon+anubis, no stat gear), and I had more magic than him

but he's getting more benefit

I thought it'd just be a multiplier to your mag stat

[potent olive]

it could very likely be doing something like

a 100% increase to your base, unascended stats

[toxic terrace]

but that's the weird thing

if I use a shield, I still get hte same 74% ish

even though my gear magic is less in comparison

[potent olive]

that's not that weird, that's how it'd work if it were grabbing your base

ascensions take gear into account, after all

so could it be that it is working like

[toxic terrace]

why would it work like that though?

it would be the only passive that doesnt take ascensions into account

iirc

[potent olive]

1000 base mag + passive (1000 mag) = 2000 total mag at AL0

1000 base mag x 1.31 = 1310 + 1000 mag = 2130 total mag at AL31

[toxic terrace]

so GSH gets less and less benefit from ascension levels while base GS gets more and more. That just doesnt seem right

[potent olive]

you mentioned a 1.78x modifier at AL31

1310 x 1.78 = 2332

that doesn't add up, so there's something less straight forward going on

but it is likely unintended

[toxic terrace]

when you tested the passive, was that on 0 al or your mirror?

because not long after that, it was 1.74x when I tested it

so there must have been a change along the way

when you tested it it was 2x stats iirc

[potent olive]

I do not remember

[toxic terrace]

there's also the fact that BP is a complete enigma lol

I think Fux showed that summon hp gets more or less added to your magic before being multiplied with the M1. But then, shouldnt we be seeing a larger increase of BP damage at higher AL with a charged passive? Since the summon hp portion gets smaller in comparison to magic

we always thought summon hp got multiplied but iirc fux disproved that

the simplest explanation is just that the passive only takes your unascended stats I guess

but for non-BP skills it does seem to be aronud 1.75x

unless grampasso's numbers were way off but I dont think so

I just dont know if it's intended or not

not even sure if Odie is aware of this thread

Only base stats + gear scale theory: Doesnt seem to be the case because Grampasso and me were getting very similar numbers for the passive for non-BP spells (al17 vs 38)

Only base stats theory: Doesnt seem to be the case because my passive increase is exactly the same if I use a shield instead of a second staff.

Base stats + gear including AL theory: Doesnt seem to be the case because at higher al we see less of an increase, which doesnt make sense because the summon hp portion of the calculation remains constant (no ascendant summons)

seems like BP specific jank

base stats + gear including AL is the most likely though since that is what seems to be happening with non-BP spells. Grampasso and I both got around 1.75x more damage when using non-BP spells

so there must be something weird going on with BP that I cant explain

should I just post it in beta bug reports lol

[swift crag]

I can try again later with another spell and an higher test sample but with non-BP skills 75% seems to be the asintote

[uneven anvil]

Hmmm

[charred basalt]

Way way faster with Ultima without charging passive though, wouldn't it?

But yeah that's pretty cool

[toxic terrace]

is that even faster than bp?

[uneven anvil]

It isn't as fast as i thought

But its cool

[rare rover]

Soooo, as a T11 RS vs GS in arena, 1 pet protect in 20 attacks. I realize that the reduction in protect was intended but this is a tad too much perhaps?

And I just Sortied a GS for 0 damage (no protect) and then sortied again for 30k... this sounds like a bug

[night osprey]

in T11, summoner was already underperforming.