Summoner beta changes

[toxic terrace]

In godforged masters post for some reason

[charred basalt]

Oh wow that's a big yikes

So regular GS is eventually going to be better for player damage cause of blood pact scaling than the player damage variant

[toxic terrace]

yeah

I wonder what that crossover point is

charging the GSH passive before doing the BP setup would take up to 6 more turns, since you do summon dead -> achlys -> 4x summon ancient dragon instead of 3

if you just buff yourself with wyvern speed 1, mimics, snotra and DC, that's 6 buffing turns.

So the GSH BP setup would take about 2+4*4+6=24 turns in one of the worst possible cases

with base GS it'd be 18 turns then

thats still a setup that's longer than some people need to finish raids

thats what I dont like about riftlock

the difference between not getting an instacast and getting one is massive

I think amorri is the only raid that might justify the longer setup of GSH, but even then, normal GS can already dish out some serious damage

while also being safer with batallions 3

[random thunder]

@toxic terrace how strong is a GSH BP3 build now? Worth it?

[toxic terrace]

here are the numbers for base GS and GSH in the beta, by FknKaine

thats just BP2 though

BP3 would be twice that damage

so yeah, a long setup but then it does do a lot of damage

although he is 45 asc

[thick narwhal]

200 ascl it's way more than 200 cuz GSH does 33% more dmg atleast at asc 45

[toxic terrace]

without charging the passive I mean

having to charge the passive on top of doing the BP setup is way too long for my liking

[random thunder]

1,9mil difference

Or like...33-34% difference

Better than 13 tbh

(Nowhere near accurate tho, huge rounding)

[potent olive]

Hopefully with the asc redesign and cap the crossover is irrelevant

[random thunder]

Idk how he got these numbers because I only managed 800-900k with ancient dragons but I only use a.quatavang, not Cele weps

[toxic terrace]

its because eos arms are still massive multipliers

[potent olive]

But if it is still relevant, some BP damage formula redesign ought to be needed

Eos arms are x1.2^5

[toxic terrace]

I mean gilgas still have their quadratic scaling as well

[random thunder]

In this sample the difference is 32.32% (rounded to 2 decimals) in favor of GSH

[uneven anvil]

Imo - Base GS could be the BP master, Hydrus could be a heretic crossover and Auriga a Summon Master

[random thunder]

So ignoring the setup time, GSH is ~32% better

For bloodpact

[potent olive]

Speaking of heretic crossover

With the Ultima change, Elysian Balance really is a nonpassive

[uneven anvil]

Yup

[potent olive]

We could afford do ditch it once and for all

It (almost) happened but some people wanted it for ultima

[toxic terrace]

it could still be used with celestial arrow I guess

[potent olive]

With that out of the equation, I think we can successfully dump balance

[toxic terrace]

why?

we're not getting anything new in return

Odie already said that they were not going to rework the base class passives

[uneven anvil]

Maybe we could get something

[potent olive]

It's just passive bloat I guess

It adds flavour but gives nothing to gameplay

[random thunder]

Much needed

[toxic terrace]

I dont see the point of removing the passive if we dont get anything in return

[potent olive]

We may not get anything in return, but often times the amount of passives a class has is a considered factor in terms of redesigns

[random thunder]

That Elysian guidance or whatever it's called is a really useless passive, it could just be a given or a "hidden" thing

[potent olive]

That's the entire reason RS lost the VD passive

Until odie readded it

[toxic terrace]

he said this, but then he also gave realms avidity tbh

[potent olive]

Yep.

That being said, there is still room for one other option

Which is, making base GS more holy/dark oriented, with Hydrus as the pact focus and Auriga as the Summon focus

[uneven anvil]

True

[toxic terrace]

that has been proposed before

[potent olive]

Yep

[uneven anvil]

But for that, base gs would need some good holy/dark spells

[potent olive]

Mmmmhm

[toxic terrace]

rest in peace GS ultima

https://youtube.com/shorts/3QBoLkNA1JA?feature=share

John any reason why that raid doens't show up in the HoF yet?

I submitted both fey yeti and yggdrasil, but only fey yeti made it into #grand-summoner-hof-raids

anyway, to get back on topic. I really do love the idea of base GS becoming the light and dark focused class. I think at the moment it's competing too much with hydrus for being a blood pact class.

I also wouldn't mind if base GS had some sigil-like mechanics like we're seeing with heretic ara

[uneven anvil]

Exactly

It could just be an inherent part of summoner classline

Just like here and RS don't have a passive for increased crit dmg

And yet the effect is there

[uneven anvil]

Also t9 god classes got new passive

[toxic terrace]

he said that back when they wanted to remove elysian balance

but they've broken that rule now

and I'd like to see hydrus get more sacrifice focused mechanics like killing off an entire summon to do damage, killing multiple and so on. Hydrus should just become an insane cultist lol

[random thunder]

A psychopath

[uneven anvil]

Maybe tweak the Hydrus passive like this - the more blood is drawn from your summons, the more your stats increase

This way, they don't need to be killed to boost you

And you can stack the passive by using blood pact

As well as them getting damaged by enemies

[potent olive]

tl;dr HoF is a pain in the ass to update. "Adding" a record moreso than updating one

We don't actually have permission to add records, only update them

[charred basalt]

Tfw this is the only thread odie hasn't typed in

[potent olive]

Even odie knows hydrus is perfect

[charred basalt]

Hydrus is better I wouldn't call it perfect though

I really like it don't get me wrong

[sly eagle]

Hydrus pact class now, OG less strong pact class. Auriga sniffing glue class

[charred basalt]

If we can just get one more pact so we don't have one button, I'll be satisfied for ages

[potent olive]

I'm a proud glue sniffer

[charred basalt]

Also yeah, base Gs' light/dark theme could be so cool

Insane potential

[sly eagle]

Looking at pies screenshots though

I think I deal more damage with buggane than those

[charred basalt]

I mean keep in mind that's beta and we don't have all pact boosters

[sly eagle]

Why not?

Arms of eos 1 shard

[charred basalt]

Oh are you talking about the screenshots where he tries using Ultima and other non pact stuff?

[sly eagle]

Yeee

[charred basalt]

Oh yeah those suck

Pacts all the way

[sly eagle]

Rhada pact best pact

[runic dagger]

We have a pact that could spread out buffs for summons but how about a pact that spreads out summons?

Use it on a single G. Hydra and get 3 more

[sly eagle]

Shadow Pact

5 turn cost

[random thunder]

morrigan. 15 turn summon, disables batallions, disables gear effects, instantly wins fight if summoned

[sly eagle]

"Bro how did you already cap damage on OR?"
"I summoned arisen morrigan with my riftlocks bro"

[random thunder]

disables gear effects
good luck with that

[sly eagle]

Still gives ward

[random thunder]

if GS can survive 15 turns as a sitting duck then it deserves the insta win

[sly eagle]

To be fair I arguably can w/ current build

Arguably because rng ofc

[runic dagger]

I mean, it just disables gear effects

Nothing about gear stats

[random thunder]

till that raid starts saying ''you are weak...'' 4 times in a row

[runic dagger]

Go full defense/res, GF + Barrier 2, stance with Aegir, and then sit like a glorious duck

[sly eagle]

I'll just make an RS alt to steal turns with

Or make 3 chronomancer alts all spamming turn gain

[runic dagger]

That'd actually be faster than normal Rhada build, now that I think about it

Consistent too

[random thunder]

15 turns pass
''failed''

[sly eagle]

XD

[wraith fable]

Should GSH get better Battalions than 2 since their summons are weaker than base GS? Make the summons protect the summoner more often by sacrificing themselves? This aligned with the current GSH concept. Yay or Nah?

[random thunder]

GSH cares even less about it's summons than GS and GSA so logically they'd want to protect it less

gameplay vise tho, batallions 2 is fineish

[runic dagger]

Yeah, if we stay faithful to the concept, it'd have been Battalions 0

[wraith fable]

Hmm. My impression is quite different as while the summons are sacrificing themselves, the summoner is buffing to the teeth. Once he is done, he either get big bois to protect him while he blasting them with blood pact or summon debuffing VSS to get bigger piercing damage.

[runic dagger]

Although, given how the summons' lives are being played around with by both parties, they'd probably be more aggressive, no? So maybe Battalions 2 and then bestow a temporary provoke to summons upon summoning?

[wraith fable]

Both ideas works as the summons won't last long enough anyway.

[runic dagger]

Agreed

[potent olive]

Batallions -1 (You have a chance to block for your summons)
Summons have permanent Appease
You have permanent Provoke

Finally

Peak hydrus

[runic dagger]

Hydrus Pact: Each summon converts 20% of the summoner's HP into damage.

The faster the battle ends, the sooner they can go home, yeah?

[toxic terrace]

I hope Odie has a general idea of what people think of hydrus know

considering a lot just gets buried by chatter here lol

[little dust]

You're not wrong, even my low level heretic with bad gear and only 3 prom hands can outdamage that. Rip GS raiding

[toxic terrace]

I think GS has to use blood pact to deal significant damage

I was hoping hydrus would have the stats to use heretic raiding methods but that doesn't really seem to be the case

ultima was our other raiding method first

and that's now dead

well, not dead compared to the non-blood pact raiding options we have but blood pact now seems to be the only viable one

maybe it's just because I dont have my main gear mirrored over but I just cant make stuff like chakram and ara vesta work effectively

[runic dagger]

Yeah, main gear would make a lot of difference

[heady current]

come here #1097809811430719538 and tell odie, maybe that ultima should still receive elemental boosts but at a 1/8 rate

[uneven anvil]

This aint bad actually. If I had 2 critdmg amities and went oracle it would've been even better

I really used to love multihit spells until t10

This brings back some joy of those times

[runic dagger]

Why Crowsong?

Also, dang, that's a lot of dmg

[potent olive]

Wanna write a TL;DR?

I'll pin it

[uneven anvil]

No reason, high mag I guess

I could go for sequencer with AMacha Pillar

But it is full of achlys souls

And Crowsong has ferocious

Too lazy to readorn xD

[toxic terrace]

I haven't seen too many other opinions around here, but I can summarize my own thoughts for sure. Other people can add to it if they want

• The GSH passive is nice, but the 2+ turns spent to max it out is quite long in some content (like towers). GSH doesn't have phoenix so it needs the passive to be on par with the baseline of other player damage classes. Me and some other people think that GSH should maybe get summons that lean into the passive, such as summons that summon other weak summons, summons that selfdestruct and so on. The idea of GSH getting pacts to kill off entire summons to deal damage has also been thrown around, that'd allow it to deal damage while charging the passive.

• I think the way it's supposed to be now is that GSA is the safe and slow class, while GSH is faster and riskier. However from my experience GSH hasn't really been faster at things like clearing boss dungeons and towers while certainly being a lot riskier. GSH summons barely deal any damage, while GSH itself still struggles to reach the oneshot treshold in horde and especially towers. My GSH was already struggling with oneshotting the enemies on the first towers encounter I tried it on, and it was somehow slower than auriga. You also have to charge your passive first which takes at least 2 turns and puts you at increased risk since you are clearing the board.

• The fact that GSH loses ascendant summons means that for some people with a decent number of ascensions, its damage will be worse than base GS if you don't charge the passive, which you might not always want to do to save time. Charging the GSH passive means summon dead + achlys pact + 4x ancient dragon afterwards which is up to 6 turns slower than just summoning 3 ancient dragons.

• Maybe GS just wasn't meant to be a party play class, but Hydrus can't really charge its passive effectively in party play when you can't have as many summons.

[little dust]

Where's the TL;DR

[toxic terrace]

lol, my tdlrs are also just walls of text

[deft frigate]

tl;dr: new passive is cool power, hard to use. ascended gs better than gsh.

[toxic terrace]

[thick narwhal]

want more tools to play with new passive thingy

[rich ridge]

re: hydrus - a helpful exercise would probably be to see where player stats are landing with mirrors. if the stats are competitive to say, 70%-80% of mage stats (to account for summon supplementals), they'd be the problem in damage potential

the passive is definitely geared towards longer form content (dungeons, raids), so I don't see hydrus ending up as an effective tower climber - other variants can fill that gap

[toxic terrace]

the thing is that mage classes have a follower that pretty much doubles their damage output and survivability in all content, on top of their stat increasing passive. Although I guess that's another topic

[small schooner]

Imo the problem of the slowness is that the tankiest summon (generally called fat draggo) requires 4 turn for 1 summon, and with batallion 2 you will more likely get hit during a full setup. You can't even use benefactor because it will diminuish pact effectiveness (sequencer is prolly the best spec). It woulld be better with a new tanky summon with little damage, to dodge pvp complaint

[toxic terrace]

yeah the long setup of BP has always been an issue

but I still think it's the only good option. I tried making heretic spells work but it just doesn't work so well

[thick narwhal]

To be fair i'm impressed by the damage done with one summon out

[toxic terrace]

thats with charged passive Im assuming?

[thick narwhal]

Yes

[toxic terrace]

I have a feeling the eos arms are going to get nerfed anyway

[sly eagle]

Wtb more offensive options w/ summons themselves

[thick narwhal]

Stats n gear btw, amity is 30% summ stats

[runic dagger]

That's probably gonna be aimed towards PvP though

[runic dagger]

Damn, that much dmg with 1 summon and 8.3k mag?

[thick narwhal]

It surprised me too

[deft frigate]

pact augs are still 1.2x each afaik 😬

[runic dagger]

Welp, GSH wins against GSA for raids, no competition now😩

[rich ridge]

is that...bad? GSA still wins for towers (possibly endless as well?)

[sly eagle]

GSA only wins on endless because of snapshotting imo

[thick narwhal]

I believe smart AI also does it's part

[deft frigate]

Mine on beta. Not sure how I'm so far ahead

[sly eagle]

I would still like a way to meaningfully go on the offense as a rhada pact summoner. even if it's glass cannon

I feel like the only way to build as Rhada and/or GSA is turtle up and wait

[deft frigate]

8341 v. 9609 mag stat. same exact fat dragon hp. I think the same amount of +pact gear 🤔 mag^ mag^^ snotra DC on both

[runic dagger]

Oh, it isn't bad at all
Hydrus can skip the scaled up raid hits now (given you've survived the setup ofc) with that much dmg

[thick narwhal]

1300 more mag doubled by hydrus passive

[deft frigate]

damage ratio is: 3.25mil v. 2.3mil (+41%)
magstat ratio is: 9600 v. 8300 (+15%)

[runic dagger]

Man, I wish GSA gets something good too, hopefully in exchange for the "ailments last for far lesser turns" passive

Cuz that one's neat at best, but not really that necessary

[sly eagle]

I really, really want stronger summons. I get that Rhada is the slow and steady but I would rather be able to choose to go into that than being stuck into it

Stuff like how bleh the additive summon stats from gear and the lack of easier access to the more basic buffs, etc etc. You've heard me rant about this a lot lol

[rich ridge]

We're really focused on the over and under performers with this patch - Auriga is currently performing well, so I wouldn't expect anything new

[toxic terrace]

will there be any future balances patches that also take speed into account?

[deft frigate]

I find it strange that GSA is considered well-performing for raids -- but that's from a high gear/ascension perspective.
It clears the raids well enough, but it's way way slower than everything else atm.

[runic dagger]

Oof

[sly eagle]

I agree w/ fux. I'm genuinely confused as how Rhada Pact/GSA is not underperforming. I get that we can clear things. But while we're spending 30+min on Arisen Morrigan while literally every other build does it in five, when is "Slow and Safe" too slow? I don't want to be top dps or anything like that. I want the ability to be with the rest of the pact.

[runic dagger]

15-30 mins and when a lucky, scaled up hit gets through, you're done😩

[sly eagle]

Want to stress that the a morg is an extreme example. But literally everything that has a large HP pool is the bane of my progression

And this is with full gearing up summon stats and using rhada

[rich ridge]

i think it's been well documented that speed is not a factor in this exercise - trying to do efficacy + speed in one patch is really a setup for failure

[runic dagger]

That makes sense...
The class performs fine for now but come Amorri event or any other event with bosses at 200k+ HP/raid bosses with 15m+ HP and speed drastically goes down

[toxic terrace]

yeah I wish yall the best of luck farming the morri event as GSA 😬

might be worth it to switch to the dark side of blood pact temporarily lol

[sly eagle]

No other realms for me

[runic dagger]

No, I'm gonna sink with the ship in style

[sly eagle]

Same

I refuse to be a discount heretic

[deft frigate]

wear as much wintara gear as you can get away with and just desperately try to get the buffs out there

only worth doing for OR, but might as well

if you're committed

[toxic terrace]

where is your switch class image when we need it

[sly eagle]

I wasn't able to get much meaningful gear from the fomor event due to how unaccessable things were with the rng

[deft frigate]

it was in your heart all along

[runic dagger]

Wintara gears + A. Rift and Celestial Hammer with full protect adorns cuz you're not gonna be surviving any ultimate that gets through

[sly eagle]

Pretty much

[rich ridge]

AMorri is in 5 days - i can't say we set the expectation that this patch would be out by then. why is relevant to the beta?

[runic dagger]

Ahh, rip the celestial hammer dream then

[sly eagle]

Because the issues with Rhada Summoner has been like this since release. I personally was hoping this balance patch would address the severe underperforming pacing that rhada pact has had. Hopefully next patch or something, I guess. I know odie was on board with the easier access mag/atk 1&2.

[thick narwhal]

I wonder if 2H GSA/GSH is a viable option now with 6 slots?🤔

[charred basalt]

I doubt it beats sequencing, even though it could be cool since we can get a pretty high magic stat with zwei and double Trev charms for hydrus I guess

[thick narwhal]

Considering the math Fux did where 15% more mag stat resulted in 41% more dmg it could be pretty significant🤔

[toxic terrace]

yeah no idea why it's weird like that

[deft frigate]

it wasn't a test dummy, to be fair. I hit an ashen phoenix, vs. fey cockatrice from FknKaine.
if anything that should mean more damage to fey cock due to lower tier, lower stats... but yeah.

the math doesn't quite make sense to me 😅 not sure what I'm missing

[thick narwhal]

Unfortunately i have no trev charms in beta otherwise i would test it😕

[swift crag]

How much mag did you have here? I'm trying to reach that damage in orn gear but 25k is max damage I can get at full passive

[toxic terrace]

9k magic

Thats with a selene hands build

[swift crag]

Mmmh i have half with orn gear lol

1/3 to be precise

[odd edge]

Aren't they now able to mirror your live account chara to the beta?

[thick narwhal]

Yes but i did have my charms in my keep when i got mirrored😅

[sly eagle]

[charred basalt]

Request another maybe idk

[thick narwhal]

Good thing i have ma dude Tober here to help me out testing out how a big fkn mag stat influences Rhada Pact

[thick narwhal]

Nah they're busy and i'm fine with it

[sly eagle]

[toxic terrace]

I just cant make it work without snotra

but this is the second time out of 3 total that Im dying to immortal lord

you'd think they wouldnt attack me as much with 6 targets total and batallions 2

on heretic I can just skip snotra because y'know, phoenix exists

[sly eagle]

Seems like a foresight issue

[toxic terrace]

more gsh suffering

thats without snotra

you really need snotra or a lugus prc to oneshot I guess unless you're super high AL

it really doesnt seem to be worth it over GSA

[swift crag]

Gsh swash feels good

But celestial weapon still superior

Even 1.2k less atk

Prom hands bonus is still big

[toxic terrace]

GS swash? Tf

is that with a hybrid amity or something?

[swift crag]

Nope

Dragon damage bonus

First screen

Second screen

[swift crag]

800 less atk sorry

[toxic terrace]

cursed af

[swift crag]

No wait, I haven't equip the dragon bonus damage

In that screens I miss 50% from gunnr, 50% from zerk1 and 30% from dragon amity

With gunnr and amity

[uneven anvil]

I managed this much as Auriga

Before the prometheus nerfs

[swift crag]

I should test with 1h and dragon book

Consider also that hydrus got a buff in atk and my screen was with full passive

With pre nerf prom i would have probably doubled that

[thick narwhal]

It seems like it does not matter if you run 2 or 4 summons in pvp. The dmg is the same

[random thunder]

218k hp in picture one
224,9k hp in picture 2

[toxic terrace]

it uses max hp

[random thunder]

Now that doesn't make sense

[thick narwhal]

BP2 always uses 10% Max HP of your summons

[random thunder]

In that case this is weird

And the fact itself is also weird

[toxic terrace]

BP is weird as fuck

[thick narwhal]

It does less however when you only have one summon out

So in pvp 2 summons is the threshold?

[swift crag]

Sweep gsh with hybrid build more effective than mage's dance somehow and more reliable

And consider I didn't have an a fey crowsong to dw

Highest i got was 39k

With dw i could probably reach one shot threshold

[green trellis]

It works with lugus

[swift crag]

I'm using arisen rings

Man missing DC is hard to compensate

[toxic terrace]

is that really better than mages dance tho?

I think I'd rather take MD since it's elementless

[swift crag]

Damage wise is 10k higher than the highest i can get on mage dance

Is there really something on horde boss that blocks physical?

[toxic terrace]

no

[swift crag]

1h swash with dragon book is still stronger

[uneven anvil]

I mean, thats what i did

Thats exactly what I did

[swift crag]

This on beta

[uneven anvil]

Ah

Okkk

[swift crag]

And on hydrus lol

[swift crag]

fair point

[toxic terrace]

I wonder whats the way to go

[runic dagger]

So, how's hybrid build going?

[toxic terrace]

hybrid or pure magic with a chim staff

[runic dagger]

Even with Hybrid amity, no dice?

[toxic terrace]

I cant test hybrid because I dont have a lute on my mirror

[swift crag]

make it, prices are reduced on beta

[toxic terrace]

I dont have a good hybrid second weapon yet 😭

I'll try it with what I have tho

[swift crag]

you can try with chim staff, not as effective but should make a difference

i wish we could instantly upgrade things in beta

[runic dagger]

Also, was there any changes these past few days?

Might've missed something👀

[toxic terrace]

blood pact is hella weird now

[swift crag]

only on pvp tho

hard cap on m1, now is 3, so more than 2 summons are useless since summon hp affect m1

and also m2 received a cap i believe, so now the only way to raise damage is increase mag stat

[toxic terrace]

dumb question maybe but what do you need for an OT castle

ah nvm

[swift crag]

20m orns and 1 billion gold?

[toxic terrace]

had to upgrade the fortress

to see the option

[swift crag]

ohh that was what you meant lol

[toxic terrace]

Im not convinved its better than pure magic, but maybe a gear issue on my end

also lol at that caroling lute godforging smh

9.7k magic 8.8k attack

the pure magic setup has 6.4k magic

although I guess it might be more consistent overall

you dont have to rely on chim staff berserk proccing

also what the heck is going on with foresight there?

when an immortal lord outspeeds me it takes hella long before my main gets the turn

[thick narwhal]

GSH has lower FS than base

One thing that also calls for GSA or base in towers

[toxic terrace]

True

But how long it took before I got my turn after the immortal lord acted

[thick narwhal]

Like 7 seconds lol even if his pet used Quickattack in the meantime that's kinda long

At 00:58 the book is scrolling looking like it's loading smth

[toxic terrace]

Ultima is not what it was before but if you get lucky with a drakeblight it's still solid

[tranquil thicket]

Still better than BP?

[toxic terrace]

I think Bp is better now

One of the best possible runs I could get with ultima. Without drakeblight it's nit nearly as good

thats a BP run.

they have similar times but the ultima run required much more rng

[runic dagger]

How the turn tables

[toxic terrace]

The damage without blight is pretty sad. This is with a maxed passive

[toxic terrace]

Im trying to shorten the setup time on gsh, thinking of using chimeras since they summon faster

That setup is still hella long though

Any suggestions?

[runic dagger]

Assuming GSA gets nothing with the next batch of new stuff, I hope we at least get further optimization to GSA smart AI passive. Currently, it only takes effect in the form of summons recognizing weaknesses and avoiding immunities, which isn't even an absolute, considering how Jinn acts.

Another improvement would be to have summons read and act accordingly with the stat buffs they are given. Lots of issues with it currently; for instance, having your summons repeatedly use physical attacks after you've given them all t.mag buffs or after receiving t.atk debuffs multiple battles in a row severely hurts their clear speed and doesn't really make sense on GSA considering they're supposed to be the smarter summons.

Imo, GSA doesn't really need new toys (although any would certainly be welcome), it just needs the passive to be a lot more versatile and prominent than it currently is.

Hopefully, devs are listening and taking this into consideration.

[toxic terrace]

So far the fastest way to raid on GSH seems to be to not charge the passive at all and just start summoning right away. There is no quick way to charge the passive since achlys pacting skeletons kills one of your 2 starting summons, which means you need to resummon it (more setup time). Charon pacting skeletons one by one is also slow. Tbh, I don't really see myself using the passive all that much unless it's morri or amorri where it might be worth the extra setup time on top of the BP setup

[swift crag]

New mob/summon: silver slime (t9 mob, 7k - 10k hp)
Skills:

• Mitosys: summon a copy of himself with the same missing % of hp
• Quad edge
• Self Ignition (passive): if it drops below 33% hp, and if it is still alive, the slime explodes dealing half his hp has damage (scales with mag stat)

Formalized idea for the summon to help with gsh passive set up

Every class has a skill that helps with their passive

[charred basalt]

not really, other class passives just charge by themself

[toxic terrace]

This would be pretty sick

[charred basalt]

so there is no difference in charging the passive and not

[toxic terrace]

I think charging the passive is not worth it for any raid thats not morri or amorri

[charred basalt]

time-wise?

[toxic terrace]

Not charging seems to be a bit faster

Or at least it feels that way

[charred basalt]

well its about the same and deals about the same damage

[toxic terrace]

It does do more damage if you have the same summons

But charging and then setting up BP is way too long of a setup

[charred basalt]

yes ofc i meant that no charge and charge is the same speed

except amorri probably yeah

[toxic terrace]

Compared to this run it was slightly slower

[charred basalt]

maybe wont be the same for me, since i have lower al

[toxic terrace]

However there I only have 3 summons protecting me

If there was a pact to kill the 3 lowest hp summons that'd maybe help

Then you wouldnt have to kill the hydra

The gsh passive is not something that you usually get when using fat summons

They only really die in amorri fights towards the end

Atm, BP seems to be our best raiding method

Post nerf ultima even with drakeblight, anubis sigils and a charged passive does like half of blood pact with no charged passive

Current ultima has the advantage of being able to deal max damage with no extra setup, since elysian balance boosts it

Ultima without the gsh passive doesn't do much at all, but charging the gsh passive means it's really not that much faster to set up than BP

Ancient dragon drakeblight is way too unreliable as well, and without it ultima is worse than ara vesta

[deft frigate]

I think you're confounding too many things.
Losing EB is 1.3**2, but a charged passive is 2x(?) which is on the whole more than EB.

If you're saying Ultima itself is too weak, that's a #1097809811430719538 topic.

[toxic terrace]

True, but EB required no setup

I don't think ultima is weak. It seems to be in line with chakram and ara vesta

I'm just saying that for GSH blood pact is better than those spells

I initially thought that charging the GSH passive and then using heretic spells would be faster than BP

But that doesn't really seem to be the case

[toxic terrace]

This is pretty much the best damage I can get out of ultima (without OT bonus though but the BP runs didn't have that either)

Atm with sequencer it seems to be BP >> ultima (elem blight) > ara vesta (sigil) > ultima > chakram > ara vesta

[random thunder]

Oh yeah..that is sad

No deific tho, so not that bad, no?

[toxic terrace]

that was with triple magic

I guess you could align both but that's not really representative of average rng runs

[random thunder]

True

[charred basalt]

blood pact being the best definetly makes sense for gsh

and the passive is cool

the whole "everything takes 1000 turns as summoner" thing still stands but im fine with that tbh

[thick narwhal]

I agree. Still as Pie mentioned it's kinda clunky to charge. Either you force it by sacrifising summons by yourself or you pray to RNGesus that a raid/mobs kill off your weaker summons.
But here is plenty of time to implement summons/pacts to smoothen the gameplay. Multiple very good suggestions have been made👍

[toxic terrace]

in one of the videos I sent here the setup took 1:20 while the BP hits to kill the raid only took 15 seconds or so that's peak GS

setting up GSH passive + blood pact is just too much

unless it's amorri or so

the GSH passive setup and BP setup kind of conflict with each other. If you summon skeletons, that leaves no space to summon fat summons so you have to rely on the boss killing those skellies, and if you achlys pact the skellies you sacrifice one of your fat summons as well

[charred basalt]

honestly the sacrificing setup is fine

the issue is at the core of summoner

that on top of your player damage buffs, you need to use turns to summon aswell

which if riftlock procs isnt that big of an issue, but if it doesnt it sucks

maybe now that pvp has different balancing, perhaps we can get a rework on how summoning works

riftlock being changed to something like
-summons take 1 less turn to cast

idk though, im honestly happy with the changes, but want to see the summoner celestials expanded with some new spells

[runic dagger]

Imo, the additional few turns needed to charge GSH passive is fine, cuz this is +100% stats we're talking about here

Although having a summon that splits/can kill off itself/others as a way to enhance it would be more than welcome

[uneven anvil]

Orc Shaman - Uses Blood Pacts

[runic dagger]

Just gonna say this, just in case GSA is slated to get something in future patches: GSH strengthens the playstyle when summons are killed, so it'd be sensible for its counterpart/sibling variant to have a bolstered playstyle when summons are kept alive, playing around with life and death but with summons as the pieces

[toxic terrace]

I think anything GSA related is supposed to be posted in #1084643200725164062 or #💡│suggestions since it was not changed in the beta so far

[runic dagger]

TvT

[toxic terrace]

what is up with this? I thought the passive would result in 2x more damage but it seems to be around 1.7x instead

did the passive get nerfed or am I misunderstanding something?

Im not hitting anywhere near 2 million

or does a 2x higher magic stat not result in 2x more damage?

[swift crag]

Nothing written on patch notes, i can test after finishing other realms, so in about 10 min

The hit before 526k was 499k

I think they rised lower-higher m2 on ultima

[rich ridge]

m1 is back up

[swift crag]

👌

[toxic terrace]

wait so it's 4.0 M1 again?

[runic dagger]

Any chances Phaethon gets double-cast on Eos Blessings to help speed up the buffing process despite its abysmal rates?

It's got two heads with it
A similar summon, Hydra, rocks their multi-elemental skills, Eos Blessings should get similar treatment as well; directions it could go is 2 targets at a time, double-casting buffs on a single target with every cast, or just full AoE buff

[charred basalt]

Since eos blessing is a skill unique to Phaethon, it can get tweaked without balance concerns to a point where Phaethon is worth using

[thick narwhal]

Also while we're at it i would like to suggest a possibility to clear targeted summons from the board since we're getting more and more utility summons and it would be benefitial to swap them out at some point. As an example Phaetheon has more HP than Buggane and i can not charon pact it when it's done buffing to clear a slot for another summon.
A simple idea would be to make sacrificial pact targetable.

[toxic terrace]

I wonder if base GS is going to see any use after the patch drops. GSA and GSH seem to kind of outclass it.

GSH is probably going to be the best for any activity where player damage is better than summon builds, so for raiding, pvp offense and maybe horde dungeons with mage's dance.

GSA is going to be the best for the rest, basically anything that involves summon damage.

[toxic terrace]

look at how quickly they die lol

GSH passive coming in clutch there

I fear that with an eos arms nerf amorri might become extremely tough

[potent olive]

base GS will still be safer than GSH due to batallions 3

and it requires less setup, so it'd be used for smaller raids

that is my expectation

[toxic terrace]

I wonder if setting up the GSH passive for ultima will be faster than base GS setting up blood pact

I guess only in elem weak raids

Base GS ultima is kinda dead now

Elysian balance is now just a 8% boost or so which doesn't come close to the GSH passive

[charred basalt]

Yeah odie you can take away elysian balance now

A bit of a shame it's useless now but oh well

[toxic terrace]

mean there's no point in removing the passive when it's not replaced by something else

Odie said he didn't want to change base class passives from what I remember

although he did just do it for base RS

[runic dagger]

Chrono + Solarseals still exist though; thing can deal 300-400k per turn along with constant stasis for base GS

[uneven anvil]

Hm

Will probably still be better on Hydrus

[wraith fable]

Celestial Arrow is also a thing with Elysian Balance.

[uneven anvil]

Is it a holy spell?

[wraith fable]

2-turn holy spell that has 25% crit chance. Can inflict Starstruck.

[toxic terrace]

from what I've seen celestial arrow is pretty underwhelming

base GS passive would boost it by 30% I think

but GSH passive boosts it by 100%

ultima is probably still the best non-BP raiding spell imo

although ara vesta with a sigil is also good

[uneven anvil]

I like chakram as well

[toxic terrace]

GS has the advantage of anubis sigils

compared to other classes

for ultima

the elemental multipliers are also back to some extent

[uneven anvil]

Sigils and drakeblight

Which is huge

[toxic terrace]

drakeblight is hella rare to get from my experience

with 1 ancient dragon at lesat

with 10 achlys souls and bulwark it's now only a 7.8% multiplier

better than nothing I guess

[swift crag]

We have cernunnos for cele arrow

[karmic prism]

question about GSH as somebody who hasnt unlocked it yet:

• is the stat multiplier capped @ 100%?
• what % of the multiplier do dying summons contribute

[outer rock]

you can purchase celestials cheaply in the beta, but from what i've seen...:

• 2.0x
• +25% (4 deaths to max)

[swift crag]

I thought it was +20%, 5 deaths to max, good to now I can use achlys instead of sacrificial pact

[karmic prism]

tyty

[toxic terrace]

I know it won't happen probably but I'd love it if hydrus got a similar damage cap removal thing to heretic ara

[sly eagle]

Lol no

[runic dagger]

Already exists with the amity, just gotta find the right combination

[toxic terrace]

15m vs 50m cap though

15 would be fine as well tbh, but getting a 50% effect duration + 50% cap amity is going to be ridiculously hard lol

Oh god I just realized

Coup de grace can probably bypass batallions right?

Amorri is going to be even worse

I'm already getting rekt by coup de grace in the live version

[sly eagle]

Good luck lol

[toxic terrace]

CDG in the first couple of turns is just so hard to deal with as gs

When riftlock doesnt proc you're just screwed

I hate how it's either 4 turns or 1 with riftlock

Atm I die in 2/3 amorris I do as GS sequencer

But if I choose the 'safe' option (GSA), it takes me like 15 minutes to clear

Meanwhile gilgas are clearing fast while sitting behind 200-300k ward lol

[deft frigate]

Yeah they're a tank class, which means they raid fast af

[runic dagger]

AL 26 and I'm clearing it in 10; you'd be able to do it much faster

[outer rock]

that's probably missing Pie's original point 😛

GS is designed as a slower, sturdier class (per NFS), and is slow

Gilga exists as a sturdy class, designed as a proper tank, yet is not slow

[toxic terrace]

What build are you using? I was also clearing it in 10 but with grimoire, meaning that her uit can still oneshot me at any point

[toxic terrace]

Gilgas also have a static miss chance while GS doesn't so near the end of amorri runs I start missing a lot

At least gsh has access to riftrogue gear I guess

[runic dagger]

• Hydra and VSS
• ONC, Baldr Battlerobe, FS Leggings, and Ymir Coil
• 3 Ward Regen, 2 Summon Quickcast
• Mana Regen amity

Just spam DC + RS 2 + Rhada for 10 whole minutes, what fun : D

[swift crag]

It's 5 sacrifices for 2x stats, 195k dmg with 4 sacrifices and 215k with 5, unless it's a bug and not intended

[potent olive]

Must've gotten changed - last I checked it was 4 sacs, 25% each

[toxic terrace]

Oof thats even more annoying then

So achlys pact doesnt even charge the passive fully smh

The feedback was that the passive was annoying to charge

NF: makes it harder to charge the passive

The problem is that we dont have any efficient pacts for this

[sly eagle]

Gotta be sloooooow and safe

[toxic terrace]

How are you going to kill 5 summons? Sacrificial pact 2 is suicide in most cases since you cant take a hit, also that changes bp into a 5x4 turn setup, not including self buffs

Summon dead 2 times then charon pact them one by one

[sly eagle]

Ewwww

That's awful

Just spam provoke, rhada, and build it up over the fight as weak summons like glash and vss go boom

[swift crag]

I did summon dead -> achlys -> summon dead -> achlys

The rhada provoke could work to charge it passively

[toxic terrace]

That setup is still incredibly long

[swift crag]

Unless enemies just focus in your droggo

[toxic terrace]

If there was a pact like achlys pact but 3 summons that would be nice

[swift crag]

You would still need 4 turns

[toxic terrace]

The GS tragedy

Thats BP gs in a nutshell

[swift crag]

I'm liking the zwei fencer build, much safer and less hp manage on summons

And I don't need quickcast

[toxic terrace]

Whats the zwei bonus again?

[swift crag]

15% iirc

Pair with 2 trev charms and is pretty substantial

[potent olive]

oof

2 trev charms

so you're actually spending 12 turns on the dragons

💀

[swift crag]

👀

[toxic terrace]

Yeah how many turns of setup is that

[swift crag]

Slow and safe

[toxic terrace]

Also taking into account the gsh setup

[swift crag]

That test was to see if I could reach cap with BP2

[toxic terrace]

They should give us achlys pact but for 3 summons

[swift crag]

Gonna need to test with 1 or 2 riftlocks

Well there is space for an achlys pact 2

It would also help summon builds some way

[toxic terrace]

Phaethon is still ass sadly

Otherwise that would be interesting with an achlys pact 2

The rates on eos blessing are just too bad

[swift crag]

Imagine 3 phaeton and 2 good dps summons, even with bad rng achlys pact 2 the dumb horses and the dps summons should get single and double ups

I also still wish for a rebirth rework for anubis, or substitution with a similar spell that doesn't remove perma buffs

[toxic terrace]

Charging the passive to full is just too much work

But I guess you dont need it to reach cap

I love riftrogue so much on beta gsh

In terms of misses it feels much more consistent than base gs now

1081 dex

So with full passive over 2k

[swift crag]

How much would you do with BP 2?

[toxic terrace]

This is with zerk 2 instead of 3

And bp2

My dex is somehow high enough to dodge some of her attacks

[swift crag]

a merlin conc and you reach cap, not bad

[toxic terrace]

Thief gear on gsh is so nice actually

Well, mainly riftrogue I guess

Ultima isnt that great anymore tho

Tried it out with the changes to elemental multipliers but it still doesn't sesm worth it to us

Thats with drakeblight as well

Without it it'd deal less than half of that

[swift crag]

imo still being able to use it but being less effective is good

[toxic terrace]

Yeah but it's not in the ballpark of BP anymore

I guess it does require much less setup

Maybe its better for short raids idk

[swift crag]

considering the set up time you probably end up with same damage over the same time

[swift crag]

like if you need to clear lower tier raids or k raids

why is summon animal a 2 turns spell?

[toxic terrace]

Minimal setup bp

[toxic terrace]

When the setup is like 90 seconds long even with good riftlock rng

Although the damage makes up for it

[sly eagle]

Seeing all those awesome follower changes. Can't wait for GSA to have more fun ways to improve summons.

[charred basalt]

Well, since GS has basically the same "problems" as beo

The summon focused playstyle that is

I imagine we will get the same treatment

[sly eagle]

Mmmmhm

One can hope.

[runic dagger]

Wait, what changes? Curious so I could also temper expectations

[sly eagle]

Beast Bond 3 now has some stuff that buffs your follower by a %of your attack and adds additional skills to the follower

[runic dagger]

Danggg, that seems like a LOT of work

[runic dagger]

Hopefully, it happens although probably not in this patch, huh?

[sly eagle]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/1097570738086621295/1100858587598815355/image.png

[runic dagger]

Looks really neat

[swift crag]

Elysian bond? In elysian balance stead?

Like I for base gs and II for gsa

[sly eagle]

Elysian Bond: All atk/mag goes to summons, no personal damage for you wolololol

[toxic terrace]

Imagine if GS gets literally that implementation of summon bestial bonds lmao

15% of our meme attack stat

[sly eagle]

I mean I could get some attack on GSA

Arisen Fey wep wololol

[uneven anvil]

I would much rather have a Horde effect

Like every Dragon summon increases other summons x stat by y%

And having the whole board of the same type doubles those bonuses

Or sth

[sly eagle]

Yeeee

[toxic terrace]

The other safe and slow class beat amorri under 50s lol

Thats also like 20 seconds faster than my bp gs record. I dont even think someone like fux could beat that record as post-patch gsh

So basically faster than gsh but safer than gsa

[uneven anvil]

Obviously gs is the only safe and slow class in this game and somehow its supposed to be okay this way

[toxic terrace]

My fasteat run as GSA bene was 7:30 lol

[toxic terrace]

It's not even that safe either

Most gsa are not tanky enough to survive amorri ults

And if you want to speed it up a bit you sacrifice more survivability because for some reason speccing into summon stats has to come with maluses

-836hp lol and thats with low quality augments

If we're going by the amorri clear speed, GSA bene is probably at least 7 times slower than player damage classes. Most player based class speedrun clears are around 1 minute and my fastest GSA 'speedrun' was 7:32 with most runs being around 8 minutes long

Fux could maybe do sub 7 but I doubt he'll try

[meager ingot]

I’d propose a pact effect for GSH, like on killing a golem with a pact you gain some ward turns/ward maybe temp dex up crit up for pacting birds

[toxic terrace]

Gsh carry builds will most likely not viable

You need snotra to reach oneshot treshold unlike heretic

[toxic terrace]

I also tested batallions 3 with the highest protect chance possible: a rift summoner plate with a 2H celestial weapon with full eos shoulders. This protected me 32/50 times (64% of the time). Base batallions 3 is 25%

ngl that nerf is extremely significant

[outer rock]

PvP?

[toxic terrace]

yep

protect chance is pretty hard to test in pve I think

I wonder if 100% protect chance is achievable in pve

with 5 eos shoulders it was around 95%

[swift crag]

Pve batalions wasn't nerfed

[toxic terrace]

the numbers dont really seem to add up though

is it just a flat 0.5 multiplier to protect chance in pvp or something?

[swift crag]

Going by patch notes, only attuner/grand attuner got reduced protect chance

[toxic terrace]

how can it be that it was 50% base protect chance before, and then 95% ish with 5 protect augments while now it's 25% base and only 64% ish wiht 6 protect augments

[swift crag]

Wasn't 95% with rift summoner plate also?

[toxic terrace]

did eos shoulders get nerfed or am I misunderstanding how they work?

[toxic terrace]

yeah, the 64% figure was a s well

does it not stack additively or something?

[swift crag]

How much protect chance does rift plate give?

[toxic terrace]

no idea

never tested that

now it's way harder to test stuff like this as well

now we can't test things in pvp anymore

but first it was 50% -> 95% with rift plate and 5 augments, a 45% increase.

in the beta it was 25% -> 64% with rift plate and 6 augments, a 39% increase

[swift crag]

I wish we could change test subject in training room and use something other than cactus

[toxic terrace]

everything was tested with samples of size 50

[swift crag]

Maybe rift plate and augments also got nerfed in pvp

[toxic terrace]

yeah but the patch notes don't mention that at all

not sure what's going on

the patch notes only mention batallions

[swift crag]

They probably reduced protect chance in general

And that affected also rift plate and augments

[toxic terrace]

the way this is worded is so vague to me

reducing the chance to protect the summoner sounds like it could include augments and gear as well, but it says batallions in front of that

maybe it's just a 0.5x multiplier to protect chance including all gear?

I'd like to see a confirmation from Odie how that works

[swift crag]

Gear seems less affected tho

[toxic terrace]

yeah

if this is the result of a 0.5x multiplier then you'd have 130% protect chance in pve or so lol

I wonder if 100% protect chance in pve is a thing now

[swift crag]

Maybe with a 2h

[toxic terrace]

in what scenario would that even be useful though?

[swift crag]

Easy mode towers?

[toxic terrace]

maybe deep endless but at some point dying gazers would become a problem

[swift crag]

At that point you can just pump magic with arisen rings and yggy gear

And help your summons

[toxic terrace]

until baldrs coup de grace destroys you

[swift crag]

👀

Gotta remember to change gear with him

I think parry also ignores protect chance

[toxic terrace]

that change will actually affect us in pve ll

especially amorri's coup de grace is extremely dangerous as GS

[swift crag]

True but it's fair imo

That's also why I was testing with zwei fencer

[vagrant linden]

How's the Summoner crowd feel about your beta changes so far?

[runic dagger]

GSH is turning out to be very nice
GSA, on the other hand, is most likely gonna get nothing though TvT

Well, there's the Phaethon tweak, but that still takes long due to the abysmal rates on that skill

[charred basalt]

GSH needs more

It's going the right way, but underwhelming in variety

[toxic terrace]

the GSH changes will improve blood pact raiding and maybe deep endless. GSH is definitely not as versatile as something like beoH though, it still can't really do AoE spec horde clearing and it would suck in stuff like towers where you don't have enough time to charge the passive

[vagrant linden]

So more work is needed on both Celestials? What about base?

[charred basalt]

We need to make a post like realm mains for supposed GSH additions

[charred basalt]

Unchanged

Except PvP, which we are fine with

[runic dagger]

"Don't have enough time for towers"

Maybe 2 high foresight non-event summons; one that could charge body count on itself at the very first turn, and the other one eats said summon to charge your passive before you yourself makes a single move?

[toxic terrace]

GSH passive is still pretty cumbersome. It requires 5 dead summons so that requires a full board clear with sacrificial pact 2, which is extremely risky. Or you rely on an enemy killing your weak skeletons but that requires rng, or you sacrifice skeletons one by one with charon pact but that would take many turns

[vagrant linden]

So what are you guys asking for?

And has Odie given clues as to the mechanisms he wants to use to fix you?

[deft frigate]

Summon-damage (GSA) raid speed improvements.

But Odie also said that that wouldn't be considered for this balance patch. So, nothing for now I guess.

[vagrant linden]

Like Bestial.Bonds for us Beos?

[vagrant linden]

So basically the same thing the Beo's want.

In a nutshell.

[deft frigate]

Kinda. Both follower and summon DPS is low in raids.

For Valhallan, they don't get a lot of gear benefits.

For Summoner, they don't many gear benefits, but start stronger, but can't be easily buffed.

[vagrant linden]

Did Odie explain why he's not upping your raid clear speed?

[toxic terrace]

https://youtu.be/jFxqlvKlVWw

Had to throw most safety out of the window to achieve that 'speed'

[toxic terrace]

he said it's not intended to be a dps class, but rather a safe and slow class

[vagrant linden]

Oh.

Is it safe?

[swift crag]

Without adding anything, they could give quadedge to skeletons of summon dead

[vagrant linden]

I mean, enough so that the speed tradeoff is a "good" trade?

[toxic terrace]

it's kinda safe if you build into survivability, but then you lose the extra summon stats

also the safety comes from rng

it's not as safe as something like gilga

[swift crag]

And with new patch you want some safety against coup the grace

[runic dagger]

Why? What's up with CDG?

[toxic terrace]

coup de grace will bypass summon batallions in the patch, that's kind of a bummer for us

[runic dagger]

WTF

[vagrant linden]

Ooh, that sucks. I'm sorry.

[runic dagger]

Not enough defenses in GS' world to survive a scaled up CDG, that or any build's completely forced into defensive😩

[outer rock]

it's a good time to be migrating away from GS 😅

that change alone is rough for endgame

[runic dagger]

Era of Ectoplasm + Gait of Kara then?

[deft frigate]

Not really. Dying as GS in raids is common, whereas if I had 200k+ ward on, say, Gilga with my same gear level and ascension it would be impossible to die.

[vagrant linden]

That seems like a bad trade then.

[toxic terrace]

the era of (insert change class icon here)

[swift crag]

To be precise, every sure to hit skills/spells now bypass battalions

[toxic terrace]

that change is even rougher for GSH

which can't take a hit

[swift crag]

Gsh has double def at base compared to gs and gsa

And can double it with passive

[toxic terrace]

yeah but the gear you'd be running with GSH has generally no def

I'm really struggling to do this sisters event as GS ngl

[runic dagger]

Would 2h 6 slots + pact helm not reach dmg cap by themselves?

[toxic terrace]

no

[swift crag]

It can, but is slower

[runic dagger]

Cuz using Heretic's robe + FSS is risky still

[toxic terrace]

you will never be getting triple mag and dc consistently

[swift crag]

Merlin pot

That set has double trev

[toxic terrace]

yeah I dont have an infinite number of them

[swift crag]

Zerk2 an 3 should be enough to replace t mag 111

[toxic terrace]

I think I'll just use heretics robe and riftrogue boots

[runic dagger]

It'd allow you to use zerks though; defensive build + zerk + GSH passive I assume would stack up your defenses enough to take numerous hits

[toxic terrace]

riftrogue boots almost have 1500 def

[swift crag]

Maybe you won't reach cap but you would get pretty solid defence

[runic dagger]

What AL is this?

[swift crag]

16-17

[runic dagger]

Now that's very promising

[toxic terrace]

my raid loadout has 2570 def now as GSH, hmm

[toxic terrace]

thats not a lot

[swift crag]

That's the set

I was just testing highest damage possible

[runic dagger]

The fact that the gears are still incomplete though

[swift crag]

I don't know what to put on the helmet lol

[toxic terrace]

I think your build would be sacrificing a lot of speed though

you have no riftlocks

[swift crag]

That's one problem i know

[toxic terrace]

do you use sacrificial pact 2 to charge the passive?

that means 5x4 turns summoning

[swift crag]

I used achlys

If you are lucky 3 turns and you are done

[toxic terrace]

I still dont really know how I'm going to charge the passive as GSH

[swift crag]

Summon dead -> 1 skeleton killed the same turn -> summon dead -> achlys

[toxic terrace]

against something like arisen morrigan even achlys pact is too risky

[runic dagger]

Scarecrows while you bulk up and then Charon it once you're done

[toxic terrace]

scarecrow really isnt consistent at summoning copies of itself

it only has a 25% chance of working right? And then it has to first choose that skill as well

[runic dagger]

Better than not having anything happening on your side of the field while you buff up though

[swift crag]

Against morri I would play safe, golem/barrier then skellys then offensive buffs then skellys again with charon until I kill five

[toxic terrace]

then it would be better to summon dead first and let the enemy hit your skellies

[runic dagger]

It'd lengthen your turns though?

Whereas you could spend that turn on WoO or something else

If you had scarecrow on the field

[toxic terrace]

wym, I can buff while the enemy kils my summons

[swift crag]

You buff while she kills

[runic dagger]

I mean, you're pretty open after the skill

And Battalions 2 isn't infallible

[swift crag]

Scarecrow can be killed turn 1 tho, without doing anything

[toxic terrace]

scarecrow is garbage

the fact that the skill has a 25% chance of working is why

[runic dagger]

Man, I'd test it if only I had my character mirrored already

[swift crag]

Something like scarecrow but with high chance to summon would be nice

[runic dagger]

Really should ask for some summon reworks after this

[swift crag]

Or you can go droggo and scarecrow as first 2 summons, woo and defensive buffs, skellys, offensive buffs

[runic dagger]

GSA could use it to an effective degree, still dunno if that's attributed to the passive or the AI being better as a whole though

[swift crag]

You give scarecrow 3 turns to do something, if he doesn't do anything you use skellys

[runic dagger]

That's...what I've been saying all this time though?

[swift crag]

You not saying skellys in my head meant you wouldn't use them

University is bad for my mental health

[runic dagger]

Ohh, my bad then😆

But yeah, scarecrow goes on the 2nd slot, then give it space while you buff yourself up

[swift crag]

The other thing is, can i go 1 trev 1 lock or 2 locks are a must?

[runic dagger]

Doesn't matter if its skill fails, what matters is that it puts bodies on your side while you go about your usual routine

[runic dagger]

I actually haven't tried that yet, would love to see just how far that could take it

[swift crag]

Every trev you miss is 15% (?) less mag

I think I'm gonna get destroyed

It's also 1k mag loss

[outer rock]

trev's 12%, zwei's the 15

[swift crag]

Arisen trevs is only 12% ? Damn

[outer rock]

12% is a large number for just an accessory slot

[swift crag]

True but i thought it was more

She kills droggos way to fast and i couldn't slot life pact

It's uploading

I reached near halfway than she decided to double ult me

The scarecrow strat somehow works tho

But could just be luck

Oh wait, it's too big I cannot send

[toxic terrace]

he he

how long did it take approximately?

[swift crag]

5 min to 15 m damage

Riftlock procced only once

And I had to resummon each droggo at least twice

Setup, untill i had all 5 droggos took 2 min

Max damage with deific channel was a little more than 3m with BP2

[toxic terrace]

#1097576473948344370 message

I don't think I'll bother with charging the passive with more than 3 skellies

[swift crag]

I let scarecrow do is thing

[toxic terrace]

anubis is so good at the start imo

for wasting turns and forbidding coups

although yeah that run was not exactly safe

[swift crag]

Coup hit me for 10k at start, 15k at nearly half

With 60k ish ward

The problem is the ult

First one 58k and another 67k one after 3 turns

Didn't have time to regain ward

[runic dagger]

Looks like not having Ascended Summons really hurt GSH, huh?

[swift crag]

Also probably anubis is better than droggo in this, just for the status immunities

[swift crag]

Probably upping the passive from 110 to 150 would be enough to compensate

Or splitting offense and defense

So that they get tanky but unable to do damage

And at this point i don't if know 2 riftlocks instead of 1 would be that much better

[toxic terrace]

summons die super easily on beta GSH

its crazy

now it kinda works because you can do a shitload of damage with BP, but in the case of an eos arm nerf that will become a problem

they only have around 100k hp

[toxic terrace]

survived an amorri ult as sequencer because anubis used forbid lol

[swift crag]

5 anubis could be better than 5 droggos against her

[potent olive]

Really? Thought it was the other way around
Trev 10%
Zwei 12%
Atrev 15%

[outer rock]

oh wait no you're right

my bad

[supple fable]

I don't understand how this work, every time a summon die you get a 25% stat buff like a red line. Capping at 100% and being infinite ? Does it go down if you summon other minions ?

[charred basalt]

Start at 0% buff, each dead summon gives you a permanent 20% for the fight

Doesn't go down if you resummon

Really powerful, but since summons take 4 turns to summon takes the most time out of all class passives

[supple fable]

sounds good for raids, does it stay un dungeons ? can be cool for endless too.

[outer rock]

it's probably the worst stat passive in the game for endless, given its class

[supple fable]

the class may be bad for endless but it's a good passive for those who want to do endless with GSH (especially for fast endless, setup buffs, sacrifice some summons, resummon for safety, spam AV)

[outer rock]

fast endless

setup buffs
😆

[supple fable]

nice conversation mate, bye.

[toxic terrace]

unless he means player buffs only

but GSH doesnt have phoenix

so playing it like a heretic isnt going to work well

I tried it for horde and it doesnt work at all

[outer rock]

oh yeah, I suppose so. to say "fast" still wouldn't be quite right, though

GS/H doesn't get much endless damage options beyond.. idk, BP and that in endless is a nightmare

relative to anything else, that is

[runic dagger]

Have you tried it yet?

[swift crag]

I tried hard endless and i reached f100 without to many issues, it's also easier to charge passive in dungeons

[toxic terrace]

not looking forward to when CDG bypasses batallions lol

[toxic terrace]

Gsh carry

TLDW: it sucks

[toxic terrace]

unless some future GS gets to use pets, I don't think GS will ever be good at horde lol

just can't beat phoenix

this is already a 2x stat passive and it's not enough

[loud nova]

Isn't scarecrow a good option for hydrus

Since it duplicates

[swift crag]

It's not consistent, it has really low chance to summon

[charred basalt]

Fully stacking takes 2 turns, way faster than using scarecrow

[toxic terrace]

How does it take 2 turns?

Summon dead doesnt always summon 3

[charred basalt]

Well summon dead and sac pact, no?

Yeah I mean I don't even say it's rng at this point

Everything in this class is

But even with the best rng, scarecrow isn't that good

[toxic terrace]

With the old passive summon dead + sac pact was guaranteed

Because it does always summon at least 2

The most unnecessary stealth nerf ever smh

Let me confirm it's actually 20% now

[charred basalt]

We could be just dumb and it was always 20

Since that was my initial testing day 1

But John tested it and capped at 4

[loud nova]

Vss

Also I just tried bl in cactus in beta

19.999.999.999

Oh god

Is there a diff between adrift and regular gs hood

Hold on let me download a screen record thing

[scarlet grove]

what is there so bad?

[loud nova]

No nonno

Use vss

Scac pact

Right

Then I did one more turn of sac pac and vss

The summon all hydrus

Then I usedcel staff with all pac effect and neuro staff and I was seq

I used snotra nag brew source mushroom

[toxic terrace]

Its capped at 5

From 0 sacrificed all the way to 5

[toxic terrace]

It's the way how the passive charged that was presumably changed. First you needed 4 summon deaths but now 5 to max it out

Also its not 2x anymore

It used to be 2x

Now its looking like a 75% increase

[scarlet grove]

but dmg looking quite ok or not, its not really that slow, sometimes i make worse and longer hord dungeons..

[toxic terrace]

Heretic with phoenix is definitely a lot better for horde dungeons imo

The gsh passive will probably be used for raids

[scarlet grove]

when you are lazy and dont respec its not that good, and im often lazy 🙂

[toxic terrace]

Let me do another one with heretic

[scarlet grove]

With full farm gear

[toxic terrace]

Why

[scarlet grove]

oh i like my phone...

[toxic terrace]

Why would I carry in farm gear lol

[scarlet grove]

oh yeah, good point..

should use more often my brain...

[toxic terrace]

Gs wouldve died here. I dont know why heretic even has more survivability but probably because of dc

And then the damage towards the end is like 2-3x that of GS. Thats just the power of dc + iconoclast

15 al difference as well

So I'll still just use heretic for carrying and horde

[scarlet grove]

Dmg is higher, bit time is almost the same, maxbe depending on rng or better use dance

Are you carrying a lot?

I do the most times horde solo with amadans staff

[toxic terrace]

Yeah I have a T10 alt now that I party with

[loud nova]

Why Is it capped

[scarlet grove]

Its capped since a longer time

Use tower augments to break the cap

[loud nova]

The ones for hera

I was using all pact effect on the cel staff

[scarlet grove]

One out, the other in..

Sure still good

[loud nova]

Regardless tho that technically would kill any boss right

And what if I give it dragon element

[scarlet grove]

Yep, 90% of the time yes

Doesnt change dmg cap

[scarlet grove]

I dont know if thats such a good argument for wanting better/faster hordefarming

[toxic terrace]

To be fair, I dont know the intention behind GSH

All I'm saying is that it can't really carry well

I guess it's meant to be a raiding class or something

I'd really only use it for raiding and pvp offense

In all other content it's worse than auriga

[scarlet grove]

Maybe thats the idea behind the c.classes to favour 1-2 aspects...
I only use h.corvus for pvp sometimes, the most time only heretic, ara is only jnteresting for breaking dmglimit, which is also not often interesting due to the whole buffing and the raids still dont have so much dmg...

Yeah i understand your point, for me, who is not playing with alts, is carrying really uninteresting, i also dont really understand whats the big purpose of alts in such a grindy game

Except for farming more scrolls...

[toxic terrace]

I dont really alt that often to be fair, but when I do I have to do it as heretic. I guess party play is just one of the intended weaknesses of the class though

That's the reason why I have ascensions in heretic tbh

[scarlet grove]

But with the gear and spec the AL shouldnt be needed or?

[toxic terrace]

I still feel like it helps when you're missing some buffs. I use heretic a lot whenever I farm dungeon events like draconian, so I do feel like I'm getting a return on that ascension investment

[scarlet grove]

Than sure yes, the first asc are also not that hard expensive

[loud nova]

Ngl we need a item for the BP user

Or at least Give us BP and summon stats in benefactor

[charred basalt]

BP is good enough

It actually has good items and is pretty competitive with other classes

Or atleast as competitive as you can be with setting up taking an extra up to 12 turns as summoner

Summon playstyle needs more stuff that actually makes a difference thougj

[toxic terrace]

I don't know if it should be pinned somewhere but GSH passive is 75% more stats now and takes 5 summon deaths to max out. John Egbert's testing from before showed that it was 100% with 4 summon deaths to max it out, so this was stealth nerfed for some reason.

There is also no easy way to max the passive anymore. I do hope GSH gets something to make the passive a bit easier to activate because right now it's just awkward to charge. Summon dead + achlys pact doesnt max it out and sacrifices one of your starting summons, summon dead and charon pacting one by one takes too long, and relying on the boss to kill your skellies is inconsistent since it relies on rng and it'll take long to max out the passive that way. Summon dead + sacrificial pact 2 also doesnt guarantee a fully charged passive and it extends your setup time by a lot since you sacrifice 2 of your starting summons, and that also puts you at a huge risk

[potent olive]

calling it stealth nerfed is a bit weird considering that odie doesn't really announce most changes

[toxic terrace]

I do think it's a pretty significant change that should have been announced, but maybe that's just me

[runic dagger]

Gonna go on a bit of a tangent here and I completely understand that this'll be a longshot but I was thinking on how to make the pact variant more bearable and capitalize on pacts rather than just be 75% summoning and 25% using pacts and here's what I came up with:

New status: Inanimate
Instead of dying when their health goes to zero, summons become inanimate instead, which takes their ability to act and participate in Battalions.

How this would work is that when they die, instead of needing to waste turns on your vulnerable self, you can just life pact them and most of your kit is readily available yet again; this isn't without its drawbacks though.

For one, they'd be stuck in [Inanimate] status, where the wouldn't be able to do any action, that lasts equal to the turns it'd take to summon them, and they take to the field permanently, meaning Charon and Achlys wouldn't get them off the field, although you'd still get the desired results; figured that the summons the class takes are purely of high health anyway, you just need to be smart about which high HP summons you take to the field cuz they still have their utility

This would change GSH's usual cycle from:

BP ×4 > LP > BP, accidental doublecast/summon dies to enemy > resummon for long turns > succeed, rinse and repeat/die to a stray hit

to:
BP ×4 > LP > BP, accidental doublecast/summon goes inanimate > LP > BP ×4

It would also work with Hydrus' new passive since you can just prioritize taking the beefy summons on the field, Achlys/Sac pact them, LP and then immediately start on using BP.

As for where it would go, Auriga's got two effects on the Auriga passive, so following that, Hydrus could fit it on its passive for a one for two effects.

I completely understand if this garners disagreement, it's completely bonkers after all, but it's more or less my two cents on how to approach not just the existing passive's issues but also the variant's shortcomings in other modes of the game as well.

[toxic terrace]

Really cool idea imo

The accidental bp doublecasts thing has happened to me a bunch of times lol

[toxic terrace]

Although I think the GSH passive is a cool idea, I don't think I'll be using it that much. Trying to charge it seems like too much setup for too little rewards.

These are some of the methods I can think of to charge the passive:

• Summon dead + sac pact 2: Sacrifices both your starting summons (potentially 8 turns to resummon) and puts you at a huge risk. Afaik, summon dead has a 28.75% chance to summon 3 or more summons. If it summons 3 you're getting the full 75% stat passive, otherwise 60%.

• Summon dead + achlys pact: Sacrifice one of your starting summons (+4 turns potentially) and puts you at increased risk. This is either a 60% or 45% stat boost.

• Summon dead + charon pact skeletons: You'd need to spend 2 or 3 turns charon pacting and at best you're only getting a 45% stat boost from this.

• Summon dead and then waiting for them to be killed: Technically no turns lost killing the skeletons, but if the skeletons don't get killed you can't summon anything to take their place. This heavily relies on enemy AI rng and you're also only getting at most a 45% stat boost from this.

Of course you can cast summon dead multiple times to get the full 5 kills for maxing out the passive, but takes a little too long for my liking. In most cases you're only getting a 30% or 45% stat boost from the summon dead methods and I'm not sure if that's worth the turns setting it up. Unless the raid is arisen morrigan or an OR raid, I will probably not bother setting up the passive. I did a lot of tests on the ashen phoenix raid boss and was just faster to just start summoning dragons right away instead of charging the passive. Maybe you'll get a small boost if one of your summons dies to a raid ult but other than that I don't think it'll come up that often. I would love to hear if someone found a good use case for the passive though.

although I am still very happy that we got a stat increasing passive at all. It is not perfect imo but it's a cool concept nonetheless

[night osprey]

IMHO all of the "pact gear" should get reworked to be something else. Locking all of the pact damage behind a combination of gear (mainly hood / necro staff) with a hidden stat damage multiplier feels quite bad.
if you don't use that specific gear, you don't bother with BP. That aspect should get some consideration with the summoner rework.

[meager ingot]

I don’t see how this is that different from crit? Its just instead of ashen pinions/ lost art/ crit damage amity/ prom hands/ you use GS hat /nekro staff/ eos arms? And you don’t have to do this you can just stack att/mag respectively but it won’t be as good. Unless you feel that crit multipliers should be changed as well which then I mean fair enough

[night osprey]

"won't be as good" try useless, more damage to the pets than the target.

[toxic terrace]

The pact build does feel a bit one dimensional ngl

Its pretty much always celestial (quarter)staff, nekro staff, Arisen rift summoner helmet, heretics robe and fallen sky shoes

I feel like that's often the case though. Ultima also had one particular build that was just pretty much always the same. People will always find the meta loadouts

[toxic terrace]

Gsh vs base gs blood pact

38 AL

Base GS outdamages if you dont charge the gsh passive

And in most raids its probably too much of a hassle to precharge the gsh passive, so I think base GS will still be better for most raids. I would probably use the gsh passive for longer raids like amorri and maybe normal morri though.

The fact that base GS outdamages with more safety makes it a no brainer imo

For amorri I'd definitely use hydrus though because I know how much it sucks to miss multiple blood pacts in a row because of the low base GS dex

[toxic terrace]

Ultima vs fey inferno

idk if it's actually faster than BP for short raids

[swift crag]

probably if you also get the right sigil going

[toxic terrace]

There was also this ridiculous rng ultima run

the chance to get 3 quickcast + doublecasts after one another is stupidly small

I think it's 30% for quickcast, 20% for doublecast. So (0.3x0.2)^3, so like a 0.02% chance

I did decide to drop bulwark in favor of the riftrogue chest

with bulwark I have to run 1 ashen pinion so the small elemental boost is sort of cancelled out

first I ran heretics robe but I had to potion too often which reduced my damage output

using normal azure pinions in the sky shoes because I still have to farm cockatrices

I thik I'll use ultima for the short raids and BP for anything with more than 6m hp

[swift crag]

isn't fey unstable less rng ?

[toxic terrace]

yeah but its 3 turn

and in my case, it gives me burn which reduces my damage output unless I run ring of annwn

sometimes DC also runs out before you get to cast the fey unstable

idk but for some reason ultima is more fun

I'll also do a run with ara vesta

fire also sucks as an element ngl

ashen phoenix is straight up immune to it for example

Rip my gear doesnt have 100% crit with ara vesta lol. It still did very well

The rng in that run wasnt great either

But you have to run 5 ashen pinions because it's only 5% base crit chance I believe

[swift crag]

where are your ifrit's feet at?

[toxic terrace]

Dc running out before I can cast it lol

Twice