#balance-feedback-discussion

1 messages · Page 365 of 1

hollow canyon
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with 2 headshots? Maybe?

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No way it's killing a fully grown Carno like that though

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a fresh sub is very much killable by Carno 1v1

mental roost
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At least in the video we can verify it likely didn't get any headshots(seemed like a bodyshot and a tail tip or tail base shot)

hollow canyon
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the larger it gets the more difficult it becomes

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but I think someone like Dashark could probably pull it off even with a very large subadult

mental roost
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It would've been two body shots if it didn't spear one of the younglings either.

hollow canyon
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yea that Stego played if awfully

floral nebula
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im sorry to hear that someone didnt take this as a joke

hollow canyon
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Stego's alright where it is, the only thing it needs is something that would stop it from packing up, there's 0 reason why this animal should be allowed to group up into herds of 2+

zenith vessel
hollow canyon
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it's just a joke that I get to see entire legions of these things walking shoulder to shoulder

zenith vessel
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Yours was just unclear sarcasm

hollow canyon
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It was pretty clear sarcasm tbh

floral nebula
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especially last sentence

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is the most unclear

zenith vessel
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Carno bleed resist is terrible

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Utah can solo a carno lol

hollow canyon
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The last sentence is probably the one that I'd struggle with the most to say whether you're sarcastic there

zenith vessel
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Carno in this updates kinda trash

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And ive seen others say that stego wont be able to defend itself when bigger predators come in

dusky surge
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i feel people are far overblowing how bad carno is. Its matchup with animals like tenonto and pachy are essentially the same

hollow canyon
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Teno claps Carno

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Its match up shouldn't be the same unless Teno got somehow nerfed

zenith vessel
hollow canyon
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Tenonto does deal a lot of bleed

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outside of Deino and Stego it has the second highest bleed after Utah

zenith vessel
hollow canyon
zenith vessel
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Most likely you will try stun with kick or tail first

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And then do whatever teno players do

hollow canyon
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ngl it shouldn't have that bleed on the kick at all, I understand why it was given it in the first place but there's 0 reason why it should have it now, Carno should also lose a serious bit of its bleed on the bite

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both of these two deal way too much bleed for what they are

zenith vessel
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Utah is just stronger now nerfed carno its main contender and buffed the utah bite

hollow canyon
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Utah bite is the least relevant thing when it comes to changes between these two imo

zenith vessel
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Still helps

dusky surge
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utah bite is pretty nothing as a change in most fights

hollow canyon
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@slender kettle That isn't something new though, herbivores have been conceptually easier for quite some time now, the only thing that was keeping them "down" was that carnivores were given a free ride into adult via diets.

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Herbivores have been much easier in terms of maintaining their diets since the beginning because well... the diets were clearly designed with them in mind.

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Carnivores have clearly been an afterthought, now the question is whether they will ever get a sensible fix. I personally seriously wouldn't be holding me breath for it.

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Also - the "metabolism" of carnivores is the same it's been for quite some time. You starve in 45 minutes on Carno/Pteranodon and like 60 minutes on Deino/Utah

keen plover
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Herbivore gameplay = max diets, no risk of starving

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I feel like grazing made herbi too good. Like sure, grazing for a bit should be enough to sustain you. However constant grazing sucks imo

dusky surge
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you cant really fix the fact that herbis cant starve since grazing exists

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honestly i'd personally make it some animals dont graze. Hypsi and magy, for example, i see eating leaves over grass

keen plover
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You can if the food they intake diminishes over time.

keen plover
dusky surge
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yes

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stego likey grass, magy likely leaves

keen plover
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thoughts on the amount you graze diminishing over time?

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So initially, you consume the full 20%, but if you only eat grass it limits it to 10%, then 5% or so on.

hollow canyon
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grazing is irrelevant

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I don't remember ever using it

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that's not what makes herbivores absurdly easy in comparison

verbal zenith
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@pure jay When you say Zerg, you mean mate right? So you trying to bring aids to the Isle?

hollow canyon
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I'd rework grazing tbh but it's just an awfully useless mechanic in general now with diets

hollow canyon
keen plover
pure jay
keen plover
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It also cuts off the potential of starving a herbi out

hollow canyon
hollow canyon
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Idk, I've never had an issue with food during a fight as a herbivore

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I guess I grazed back in update 2 as a Tenonto

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because I simply didn't want to leave the swamp while pvping Carnos

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so I just grazed up to 20% and went straight back to fighting

pure jay
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I think herbis should have their food decay literally 20x faster so they actually have to eat every 3-5 minutes, even grass or they die. It's 1. realistic, 2. allows you to like starve them out and 3. stops the afk growing

hollow canyon
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I mean realistically herbivores would spend the majority of their time eating but that's not very fun

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in general I wouldn't want to make the game too realistic

keen plover
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I remember they wanted herbis to compete, but now that doesn't happen due to so much food

hollow canyon
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otherwise we will have carnivores birdbathing for majority of their time and herbivore players having their fingers fall off from holding e without end

pure jay
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Limiting the food still doesn't solve a group of like 10-15 herbis walking from plant to plant

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The simple fact that they have to bite into whatever for 10 seconds and then can fight for 15minutes is just ridiculous

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Herbi lategame is also very boring to me, there is nothing left to do

hollow canyon
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I'm fine with their lategame - running around and killing stuff is very much fun

pure jay
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That shouldn't be the late game for a herbi tho, makes no sense

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Herbi is just the better carni at that point

dusky surge
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what should be the late game then?

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we haven't any elders or perks yet

keen plover
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pvp is the only current endgame (nesting is too?)

dusky surge
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the best you got is nesting (which albeit is infinitely better than what we had but the point remains)

pure jay
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I think preventing almost invulnerable herds from forming would be the first thing, and then actually give carnis the power to kill them.

opaque beacon
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@fallen vale watch how he punishes https://youtu.be/vDbTvaWtIRs

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pure jay
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If I'm in a group of like 10 mature and 10 young then there is nothing for me to fear. But if you make it so I can only have like 5 around me and carnis get the power to win a 5v5, which only would make sense then my late game content is waddling from food to food and trying not to get ambushed

dusky surge
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i think it is a bit too early to be discussing whos strong and who isnt. Remember U4.75 had people believe pachy was trash and then immediately that it was OP

pure jay
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Instead of running into the newbie zone and killing everything I see

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Well, we can agree that 5 grown stegos are going to win pretty much any 5v5

dusky surge
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Well, yea, but that's stego

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It probably should be winning any 5v5

pure jay
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Then say those 5 stegos also have 10 other herbis following them

keen plover
dusky surge
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True

pure jay
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I'd just really like to see a mechanic which prevents too many dinos from grouping

dusky surge
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You can't really do that honestly

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Without it having terrible side effects

pure jay
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It can't be more terrible than one spawn being camped by 30 raptors and then the swamp having 25 herbis

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That's more than half the server in 2 places untouchable for the rest of it

keen plover
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I'd rather the herbis tbh. At least they're slow. Still bad

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Although that's the thing, food is so easy to get, so of course there will be massive groups

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The only reason you get those mega mixherds is because they do not starve.

pure jay
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Well, for carnis it's very hard to hunt down herbis so they start spawncamping and rather eat 10 babies than 1 grown dino

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True, I managed to grow a raptor from spawn to 100 with only a single rabbit

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While a carno starves even if it eats half the server lol

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I love the idea of a always hunger killer machine, but a carno is more like a wet piece of paper

keen plover
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That's mainly due to carno being the only large body land carnivore. I doubt it will have a drain like this in the future. Carno is meant to be eating smaller creatures like utah, so eventually that should fill it up

hollow canyon
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Whenever someone calls an animal an "always hunger killing machine" they make me want to play that animal ngl

pure jay
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Currently utahs kill carnos of the same size lol

keen plover
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that's fair

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carnos of the same size can also run away since they'll probs have both high stam and speed

pure jay
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Ya, just if they get pounced once they bleed to death and it's game over, you have to stay in the open and run from any raptor

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What is the current prey of a carno, if we're honest?

keen plover
pure jay
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What do you do if a raptor smells that teno?

dusky surge
hollow canyon
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Yea, I'd say something about the diets but I've spent half the day today ranting about what an abomination carnivore diets are so

dusky surge
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:P

keen plover
pure jay
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:v I dunno, I forced a mature carno to flee as like 3-5% hatchling utah

keen plover
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huh

dusky surge
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thats because carnos are not very good at the game

pure jay
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Bleed wins

dusky surge
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i have discovered that many carno mains have yet to learn of the bucking functionality

keen plover
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1 utah pouncing you won't kill you. Just buck and run it down since it has no stam left

pure jay
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I was so small I was hiding in normal grass

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I could rest 10 meters from it, get my stamina back and pounce again

keen plover
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how bad was this carno to be losing to a 3-5% utah

dusky surge
pure jay
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It doesn't feel like a killer machine if it loses to a baby

dusky surge
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this carno was more than likely complete dogshit lmao

keen plover
pure jay
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It makes no sense that the predators are the weak ones honestly

dusky surge
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i honestly hope weather influences how herbi food spawns and is distributed

dusky surge
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IMHO, droughts should reduce herbi food distribution the longer they go on

pure jay
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Just need that zerg limit mechanic, if a group of 2 stegos and like 3 tenon for example group up against 3 carnos they for sure can catch a weak one out

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But you're not gonna run into 8 stegos with 15 tenons

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Carnos then rather start killing eachother and we have 2 worlds

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Herbis who walk from A to B to eat and Carnis who kill eachother to eat

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What do ya'll think about mature herbis giving a tiny amount of every vitamin if they are like huge and get killed(For example Stegos and Tenon)? Would reward going for the big prey instead of spawncamping babies.

dusky surge
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ehhh

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honestly we just gotta wait for gore for the big carni diet change

pure jay
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I wanna encourage people to attack grown herbis

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Even if it's like you can max. get 20% of every vitamin from those corpses, but some kinda reason to go for it instead of 5 babies

dusky surge
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i think it should be equally worthwhile to tactically go after the weakest in the herd

pure jay
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But that still ends in many grown herbis living forever

verbal zenith
dusky surge
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?

verbal zenith
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I just got here, so im responding to your replys

pure jay
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When I reach 100% as herbi I just suicide after like an hour because that's basically "gg, you won" to me

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Nobody will ever try to touch me in my herd, I live forever.

keen plover
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A main factor is, even if I kill one of the adult herbis, the others will body camp. I hope the migration system does away with that play style

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Hopefully they're forced to keep moving or something idk

dusky surge
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how would a migration system even work

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unless food dies in one place and flourishes in another

keen plover
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Probs that

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Lack of food in an area causing the herd to keep moving

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Why waste time camping a body when you can have all the prime dietary requirements somewhere else?

azure hinge
verbal zenith
placid reef
dusky surge
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a migration system will ideally have more than one whole swamp lmao

placid reef
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and exists where it atually says in menu (looking at you pachy)

placid reef
raw reef
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@remote bane the talk about it being nerfed is one,

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it eats a shitton,and 2

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it got no blood fr

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if theres a huge family of raptors yall should be able to go in one by one,since your pounce got buffed too,and bleed that dude down

dusky surge
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pounce was actually nerfed this update. Only thing "buffed" about it is that it works lmao

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that and the animation change

hollow canyon
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not true

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its recovery time after missing it was reduced by a tonne, that's an enormous buff

dusky surge
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true but thats more if you miss

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hitting the pounce is arguably weaker

hollow canyon
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yes it's a buff to the pounce though, a very crucial one

raw reef
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everythings bloodpool got nerfed too so

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overall huge buff to pouncing

hollow canyon
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That's not true either

dusky surge
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that didnt happen

hollow canyon
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Nothing got its blood pool nerfed

raw reef
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oh

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i tought they didig im stupid

hollow canyon
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The only thing that got nerfed was Carno's running blood loss was nerfed

dusky surge
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not true actually

hollow canyon
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as in - Carno now loses much more blood when it runs around

dusky surge
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running blood loss was entirely unchanged

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its standing, walking and trotting blood loss were increased

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but running stayed how it was

hollow canyon
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those were unchanged to my knowledge

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it's the exact opposite as far as I know

dusky surge
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Movement Modifiers
Standing Bleed Multiplier increased.
Walking Bleed Multiplier increased.
Trotting Bleed Multiplier increased.

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straight from the patchnotes

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running actually bleeds you out exactly as fast as it would an U4 carno

hollow canyon
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interesting

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according to that yea that's how it would work

remote bane
dusky surge
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i mean, i've seen carnos be soloed by utahs, buuut

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those carnos were literal dogshit

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no bucking, constant sprinting, missed every hit

remote bane
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yeah? exactly lol
i think anything can solo anyone if they're very good and very lucky. carnos are strong right now, their biggest asset being they can outrun literally anything if they need to. it's ok to have weaknesses, it really is.

raw reef
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with a raptor that knows what its doing and a carno stupid enough its possible

dusky surge
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with a carno stupid enough

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with a carno stupid enough, a baby can win a fight

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carno mains haven't really been the peak of intellect as of late let's be real

remote bane
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raptors die in 2-3 carno hits, which sometimes can come from some insane angles. legacy or evrima, every fight is very punishing of mistakes. that isn't news.

raw reef
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ikr this group of carnos were just hunting my stego group with a buncha baby pachies

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baby carno did the most dmg outa all lmao

remote bane
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i do also think a baby pachy being able to break an adult utah's bones is a little... odd, but whatever

dusky surge
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like in all honesty, i've seen GOOD carnos still manage to clean house, nerfs be damned

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but there's so many bad carnos atm

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carnos that just expect to win because utah will end up dying to bugs or horrible stuns

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and when they don't have the crutches of the utah's own misfortune, they can't ACTUALLY fight one

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believe me, the only carnos remaining after this patch will be the skilled ones that turn utahs into paste

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the ones who used carno as a crutch will have to move on now that its insanely lenient bite range is gone and it actually needs to fear something killing it

frail bobcat
remote bane
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i do wonder how the balance will change overall when they add more dinos to the roster. i love playing cera in legacy and am curious how they'll do against carno here. that should be some new competition

dusky surge
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i really do want cerato to be something interesting

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and not another basic hunter killer

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i REALLY want corpse guarding and bullying to be its identity

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its better at stealing the aftermath of a hunt than hunting itself

remote bane
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if they'll be introduced with the gore system, that should def be interesting
given it seems they'll be able to eat even super rotten meat
real scavenger that can also scrap real well maybe??

dusky surge
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id hope so

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id make cera the slowest of all the land carnivores, well outsped by utah, troodon and carno

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(at least, for our current planned roster. Obviously its outrunning rex)

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it makes up for this in sheer tenacity and endurance. I'd give this thing resist to basically everything, bleed, fractures, venom, you name it, it's fine. Make it a real honey badger bastard, something that no one wants to fuck with because the effort to do so far outweighs the reward

remote bane
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if they're to do that, they better introduce more AI because carnivores starving due to lack of food is a real problem at the moment lol
and ceras being too slow to even catch it if they cant find player bodies would be. problematic

slim dragon
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I just imagined something that could be coming for Cera (or a nice ability at least)
Pachy's charged ram, but instead of headbutting it delivers a gnarly bite dealing good damage and lots of bleed

dusky surge
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obviously still able to maul a boar or a goat

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deer might be a bit too slippery for it but that's okay

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same with rabbits

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it prefers things that don't move anyways

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My stats for cera would be

  • Okayish weight (around 1300kg)
  • Mediocre sprint speed (around 40km/hr)
  • Very good bite force (around 200?)
  • Good trot speed
  • Good stamina
  • Great turn radius
  • Good swim speed and swim duratio
  • Resistances to bleed, venom and fractures

So basically carno's complete inverse

hollow canyon
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It should hunt boar imo, the issue is that most theropods would want to go after boars simply because they are one of the few elements of fauna that are on the larger side in the game

dusky surge
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true

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boars are generally hotly contested because big on meat

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i was going to say i'd put magy and boar on its diet, but that's probably not how diets will work post U6 so TI_HypsiShrug

dusky surge
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@alpine plover teno has less health than carno, it's not really that OP

alpine plover
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I was able to run around killing carnis with no punishment

dusky surge
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probably because they bit you on the tail or played poorly

alpine plover
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that doesn't matter, they shouldn't have done so little damage

dusky surge
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they did as much damage as they would to any other animal

alpine plover
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are you stupid?

dusky surge
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no?

alpine plover
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obviously they didn't do more damage

dusky surge
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teno has no special resistances

alpine plover
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yes

dusky surge
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so it sounds to me like they just bit your tail a bunch and did no damage

alpine plover
dusky surge
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okay?

alpine plover
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even though they struck me more than enough times to at least put me half hp

dusky surge
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if you were a carno, you would've been even better off

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since carno has more health

alpine plover
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what?

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it was a carno that attacked me, I 3 shot it

dusky surge
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okay so

  • teno has less health than a carno
  • teno has absolutely zero unique resistances
  • teno has no unique mechanics that would mean it takes less damage
  • you implied in your post that it was unusually tanky, which is factually incorrect
alpine plover
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just stating what happened my guy, it felt wrong

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no need to suckle the teat of your badly made dinosaur game

dusky surge
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what

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what the hell are you talking about lmao

alpine plover
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are you inbred? is that why your brain is so fucked up?

short spire
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Seems like you’re the one getting mad over a dinosaur game

alpine plover
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????

short spire
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Calling people inbred because they disagree with you is a new one

alpine plover
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isn't teno technically weaker now since utahs are a pretty big problem ?

short spire
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Yeah teno is really quite balanced

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Only problem is the kick shouldn’t do bleed I think

alpine plover
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haven't had many problems with it, its a brawler it's supposed to mess things up

keen plover
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Teno is stronger actually, well. It has more opportunities to attack

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also how does a carno get 3 shot lmao

placid reef
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not adult

keen plover
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Yeah, which makes the post even funnier lol

alpine plover
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it eats plants therefore it has to die to everything in 2 bites

keen plover
dusky surge
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mild disagreement
inbreeding

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god i love the isle discord

placid reef
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just discord* TI_DangerRex

analog mirage
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Tail hits do way less damage that must of been it

dusky surge
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you try to tell him that man

placid reef
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also def not an adult if it got 3 shot

dusky surge
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i ain't doing that again he's going to lose his shit

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its like talking to a brick wall with an MP3 player attached that only spews insults

analog mirage
placid reef
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imagine the mp3 player and the insults

alpine plover
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glad that tail hit damage was reduced tbh

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carnos would just spam bite your tail if you were playing teno

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the hitbox for carno especially didn't help

placid reef
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Stego TI_Troll

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bite me i dare you

keen plover
analog mirage
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I will say, I do feel like Teno can turn a bit too quickly to direct counter (what should of been) a well played charge

alpine plover
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carno needs to actually ambush teno now which is cool

placid reef
analog mirage
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Yeah I do feel it’s too hard sometimes to ambush cause Teno can Insta turn, and Carno can’t find any cover to ambush in a plains

placid reef
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well add that to the pile of map design flaws

analog mirage
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That you are almost forced to be in a group to kill it, a solo Carno rarely comes out on top

keen plover
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I mean, most players are ah... bad. You'll probs find a decent amount of tenos you can solo

analog mirage
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Tbf that’s another reason herds are OP you’ll rarely ever find a Teno alone

keen plover
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TE_Shrug that's the issue with making every herbi and carni group related

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Although 8 tenos is overkill

dusky surge
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i mean

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bowling pins ;)

alpine plover
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tenos in mixherds usually don't know left from right so yeah you can just ram them to oblivion

dusky surge
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nothing more satisfying than getting a strike on a teno herd lmao

left scroll
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its not that hard to use a group against themselves, chances are they're just people who've come across each other in game rather than friends who know how to coordinate, so its amusingly easy to get people to hit each other lol

dusky surge
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best thing ever is making stegos make their babies into past tense

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then waiting till they leave out of shame for a good meal

azure crescent
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also inbred islecord users???

keen plover
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they're not in the server anymore

slim dragon
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Surprisingly

raw reef
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doesnt carno do something like 200 250 dmg annyways,3 tailhits would be nothing to a teno lmao

dusky surge
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175 damage

raw reef
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yeah litteraly nothing

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shouldnt even be half if body hits lmao

crimson dock
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Ok so hear me out first. Sometimes there is a large problem of people spam calling. I have heard that there is a breathing debuff of some type for spam calling already. (idk if this is true) Why can't we have it where if someone spam calls too much, they get a debuff that causes their throat to get hurt where they have to cough and slow down randomly with a very small bleed effect? This would stop the spam calling issues. (Because they would be very easy targets for carni and the stop effect would help kill the spam calling hypsi)

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I just like the idea of the throat getting hurt as more of a realistic aspect to the game as well.

frail bobcat
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This is the discoussion channel

raw reef
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@floral nebula i too do think,that a carnotaurus biting a stego that made the mistake of swimming shouldnt do much damage,since that wouldnt be herbivore friendly,crazy how that guy couldnt even facetank you with its bite!i been requesting carno get bite nerfs for a while now but so far they havent done it.

unborn iris
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Actually surprised to read through the balance feedback and agreeing with the majority of it. What is the discord coming to.

hollow canyon
dusky surge
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why

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what did i do

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tell me that shit isn't funny

hollow canyon
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It's a new account

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just ignore it

dusky surge
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i see

placid reef
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prob guy made a new account or smth

hollow canyon
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dude's clearly speedrunning

dusky surge
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god i hope so

mental roost
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Did....did this man just make a new account, hop on his alt, or something?? TI_HypsiShrug

placid reef
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its discord...

dusky surge
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im glad i matter so much that he needs to come back in an alt, and if it isn't an alt, i'm glad so many people genuinely care this much to the point of calling me names lmao

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and i'll tell you what, this new guy, he's got some pretty decent material already

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big fan of him

mental roost
placid reef
hollow canyon
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the previous one isn't banned yet so

dusky surge
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but i like how genuinely riled up someone got over me thinking it's funny when, in a fight, a stego misfires and kills their own

fast sedge
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I did well for the first time - the dino must be OP

dusky surge
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basically, lmao

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@alpine plover they didn't nerf bleed on pachies?

alpine plover
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They either nerfed pachy bleed or utah does a ridiculous amount of bleed to it

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I was with my friend nesting pachys yesterday and while I was able to kill 3, my friend was out the whole fight because he got pounced for 2 seconds

dusky surge
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they just fixed the pounce, utah always did that much bleed

alpine plover
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I dont think so, in update 4 you could get pounced and run around a LOT. If you get pounced now you have to either crouch and not move or sit

#

Our pachys almost died like 8 times from one 2 second pounce while in update 4 we would slay utahs with no problem, we arent bad pachys

#

@zealous kestrel wdym?

hollow canyon
zealous kestrel
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I was going against a raptor and he was facing the opposite direction as I was chasing and he basically 180 and was attached at my side suddenly.

#

I guess it’s not a big deal just thought it was odd

alpine plover
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I believe utah doesnt need to be running the way it wants to pounce right now, which should maybe be changed (if that's what you mean)

#

Like they can pounce you while running away from you

zealous kestrel
#

That is indeed what I mean! Perhaps I should have been clearer in my suggestion message

alpine plover
alpine plover
zealous kestrel
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I just did, thank you much for the suggestion!

hollow canyon
alpine plover
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Maybe it was, but idk... in update 4 pachy always killed utahs now it feels like a total 180

dusky surge
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pachy doesn't do nearly the same damage and pounce actually works

alpine plover
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Maybe that's why I guess, it just feels dumb for a utah to tank 6 alt bites to the head

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After a ram

azure hinge
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@zealous kestrel Thats not a balance issue

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that is a bad animation issue

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they do turn around and pounce they have to be facing and leading targets but doing turns and jumps just looks weird when the animation translate to server side

#

what you want is dynamic animation depending on where they attack from, so it doesnt just put them on the side it needs to pounce and land on the head as well

thin mantle
placid reef
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i always felt a pounce to the face should not be a latch, just more like a kick in the face and tails could slow or stop the dino from running if the weight would allow as if the utah grabbed and yanked at the tail

azure hinge
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@thin mantle id say no pounce on heads but the rest i think is fair game

thin mantle
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And legs ofc

azure hinge
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i mean i think the entire tail of something shouldnt be a hit box idk if thats how they have it

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but the tail should be cut in half imo cause tail shots at the very tip are a little dumb

placid reef
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its a hitbox it just has dif damage scalars

azure hinge
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yeah i think thats dumb though tbh

placid reef
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base of the tail is .75, most of the tail is .5 and tip of the tail 0

#

its still flesh, it still bleeds

azure hinge
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i mean if the tip so like the last 25% of the tail is 0 dmg

#

thats exactly what im saying

placid reef
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yes

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bc thats a very insignificant part of the tail

azure hinge
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i mean so are limbs of a lot of animals and htey can still survive

#

idk then why u brought it up u just said exactly what i said

placid reef
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i said how its in the game

golden coral
azure hinge
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well im fine with pouncing onto the back

#

im saying like 25-50% of the tail shouldnt be a hit box though

silk harness
#

@alpine plover I'm pretty sure Utah's pounce actually does less bleed than U4. They removed the "impact" damage and bleed you'd get for just initially landing the pounce. Now if you just tap the pounce button and release, it does zero bleed or damage.

alpine plover
#

What’s y’all’s opinion on teno currently

elder steppe
#

Im lovin the teno right now. Can't complain

#

I do think that the carno shouldn't of had the blood pool nerf though

trim rose
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@zealous kestrel @alpine plover I have no idea what you two are talking about. Utahs do need to be facing the direction they pounce. They cannot be facing away from you and pounce backwards. However, they can turn around very quickly, just like every dino on Evrima can, and then pounce you (I do this with Boars).

elder steppe
#

@trim rose Reasoning checks out... Carry on

trim rose
# thin mantle That, and you just shouldn’t be able to pounce an animals tail or head in the fi...

Hard disagree. Utah needs to be able to pounce a person's tail or head & teleport onto their side, otherwise pounce becomes virtually impossible to perfectly aim and then it's ridiculous again & no one will risk using it (when I'm not a full adult, I wouldn't be able to hunt a Boar if I couldn't pounce it head-on because they're always chasing you & therefore facing you. You cannot sneak up on them because they're AI. I would have no way to pounce it). And even with the game saving head/tail pounces, they're still easy to miss in intense hunting/combat situations. You have to be virtually touching someone to pounce them.

thin mantle
# trim rose Hard disagree. Utah needs to be able to pounce a person's tail or head & telepor...

Then just have this not apply to AI, easy fix.
Regardless, Utah having places it can or cannot pounce increases the necessity of packs past what it has now, coordination would actually become important if you couldn't just pounce from any angle, and it'd give defenders places to target their defenses primarily, increasing the necessary skill ceiling for playing utah as well as making their engagements a lot more intuitive. Like seriously you can pounce a stego leaping at them thagomizers first and get warped to their flank, it's nauseatingly silly and a serious crutch for players who are bad at baiting or group coordination and planning

#

Also you pin boars as an adult utah, it's a moot point regardless but you don't actually latch pounce them anyway

trim rose
# thin mantle Then just have this not apply to AI, easy fix. Regardless, Utah having places it...

Why should every other dino be able to use its special ability on the head and tail but Utah can't? Lol not fair. And Utahs already need packs regardless of the new pounce; 3+ adult Carnos can still decimate large Utah packs and Herbies are often traveling in packs. Utah should not require an insane amount of more skill to use its special ability than all the other dinos. Perhaps the thagomizers shouldn't be part of the hitbox, but I disagree for other dinos' tails.

elder steppe
# thin mantle Then just have this not apply to AI, easy fix. Regardless, Utah having places it...

I can see your reasoning Fluff, but i have to agree with bincent on this one. I understand that coordination is a big part of the game, but it's hard to coordinate with just a chat box. Most raptors I play with don't join the vc. Besides it doesn't make any sense to me that pouncing at the head or the base of the tail wouldn't count as a pounce, especially since both are prime targets for it. It would be even more jarring and weird if you pounced on somethings head and it didn't even take a little bit of bleed

trim rose
elder steppe
#

yeah, pouncing on spiky tail don't make sense though

#

same for the horns of the triceratops when it comes out

golden coral
#

A compromise would be to keep base of tail, that can be reached from side/rear angle, but not let the rest of the tail work or from more directly behind, and then not let it work on face either, or let the utah get stuck and thus take damage if the targets head and neck is big enough to actually hold on to.

#

Also it's not hard to coordinate, I'm sorry but if you can't talk through a game plan, and know your critter and how to play it.. well, that's a "skill issue" as it were :p

thin mantle
# trim rose Why should every other dino be able to use its special ability on the head and t...

Because not all abilities do the same thing. Hypsi can't use it's special ability on anything but the head of the animal, dryo's special ability is irrelevant of damage, pachy has locationally bound fracture variants, ptera doesn't have a combat relevant special ability, and the rest are attacks that work by blatantly overpowering the target through brute force, like charge lunge and slam/kick.
There's no element of fairness to analyze here, all of these attacks do different things, pounce is attached to one of the smallest fastest and most agile animals in the game and does heavily relevant bleed to animals up to stego in size, this move shouldn't be so easy to execute, and since utah is meant to be especially serviced through group tactics, baits should be necessary for setting up angles.
And yes, utah totally should have a VERY high skill ceiling for it's pounce, it's one of the most efficient and powerful punch-up abilities to exist across the roster, combined with utahs speed and agility and theres only a couple threats you can't outspeed or outmaneuver, the rest of utahs kit compensates for it's weaknesses and it's a competent fighter without pounce anyway, and considering pounce allows it to tango with animals FAR outside the relevant size threshold of others in it's size range, it should be very hard to pull off

golden coral
#

As for the AI, well, its.. AI, it kind of "plays" in it's own way, not the best comparison perhaps :p

#

On top of this, we know that utahs pouncing trike face = death. So the precedent for it not working depending on positioning is there.

thin mantle
golden coral
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It's more so a matter if you should be able to pounce something head on, and tail on, in general, or if that should result in falling off

thin mantle
# elder steppe I can see your reasoning Fluff, but i have to agree with bincent on this one. I ...

It is hard, but if you've planned out your strategies with your pack before entering a hunt you won't even need to coordinate mid hunt outside of a couple call outs. I do this a lot with randoms I meet on officials, it only takes a couple minutes of tactics discussion. And btw, I have no qualms against something taking a single hit/tick of damage from getting pounced on the head or tail, but it shouldn't result in a latch

trim rose
# golden coral Because every other ability is a normal attack, just like a bite or swipe or som...

Carno charge to the head probably does insane damage. Carno charge to the tail, less so. So maybe a Utah pounce landing on the tail could do less bleed. I feel like people are unreasonably harsh on Utahs. People want them to have an insane missed pounce recovery time so that if they miss a pounce, which happens all the time, they can easily be killed. People want them to have a very small pounce hitbox so that they have to be the most skilled Utah ever and run in to the other dino's attack range at the exact right moment aiming perfectly in an intense combat situation meanwhile the other dino can easily turn in any direction since the wider, varying turn rates of Legacy are no mroe. People want the pounce to do less bleed on top of all this.

elder steppe
elder steppe
thin mantle
trim rose
# thin mantle Then play utah with a friend, get nested in, scavenge for other hexagon nutrient...

No. I shouldn't need to have to wait & plan with a friend just to be able to play the game & survive as Utah. I should be able to grow to adult by myself if necessary, while being encouraged to pack up to get more rewarding kills. Not to merely just survive. Also, juvi Tenos & Pachies are not just something you easily run across lol. At least not for me. During this update, I've seen one single juvi Pachy. They're all hiding.

elder steppe
elder steppe
thin mantle
# trim rose No. I shouldn't need to have to wait & plan with a friend just to be able to pla...

Well fortunately you don't have to, just eat lower difficulty targets, like dryos juvis subs and all AI. But if you want to go for targets much larger than yourself, then you're going to have to either get really really good at Utah, or coordinate with friends.....you're playing the only by design pack hunter in the game afterall, if that doesn't suit you then I'd recommend player a more solo oriented predator, or troodon when it comes out, since it's a swarm predator, low coordination requirements when there's 20 of you.
And yet another thing! Nesting....
Growing a utah army through nesting is now very much possible, the support of your parents and pack will make growth much easier, and regardless, AI is still a viable option rn, I've grown 6 utahs in U5 off of AI alone, and a couple scavenged bodies. It's not terribly difficult.

thin mantle
#

And ofcourse, this is contextual to the dino, but that'd be my general approach

golden coral
# trim rose Carno charge to the head probably does insane damage. Carno charge to the tail, ...

My point was not the damage, but the knockdown, the actual "effect" of the charge, rather than it being just normal damage. Just like the pounce is well, a pounce, not just a bite or swipe. Hence treating pounce like the "effect", when it comes to latch. I think the hitboxes are probably fine, it's just the angles I take issue with, and honestly, you should aim for the flanks, that's.. where you get latched after all. As for the bleed, I personally think it might be a bit overtuned now that every pounce works, since it has been lethal before, with all the issues pounce has had. But that's a bit of a different topic.

elder steppe
trim rose
# thin mantle Because not all abilities do the same thing. Hypsi can't use it's special abilit...

I disagree with this, too. Utah is not a competent fighter without pounce imo. Stronger alt bites quickly drain your stam and again, in high combat situations, alt bites and especially regular bites are extremely easy to miss and don't do a whole lot of damage for a Utah. And I don't think it should have a very high skill ceiling for it's pounce, nor that it should need a pack to even execute a successful pounce if baiting even works.
You say it's one of the most efficient, powerful abilities to exist across the roster and yet... combat has still been a challenge for me. As a fresh juvi rushing against time to prevent starving where the only other food source I've come across is a juvi Carno, the fight lasted ages with me pouncing and dismounting and having to juke like crazy before both of us would run somewhere to heal or regain stam, then repeat this over and over and over till I'm on the verge of starvation, then the juvi Carno would finally die and often another will roll up out of nowhere and steal the body and I'll starve to death lol.
If you make it so that pounce requires this VERY high skill ceiling, as you put it, then it is no longer viable for the large majority of players to use. People will simply stop using it because the chance of dying is just too high. It'll be like before when it was really buggy and nobody used it because it was too difficult lmao. Smaller window, less bleed, quickly drains stam & drains stam extremely fast if the victim is bucking, longer recovery time; people just don't want Utahs to be able to use pounce & they're biased lol. They want it to be extremely difficult or suuuper duper realistic without thinking about the people who actually play Utah & how to make it enjoyable for them.

golden coral
# elder steppe I agree that anything past a quarter of the tail shouldn't count as a pounce. Li...

I mean, pouncing a stego head or teno head or similar = too small to hold on, so you'd just fall off. Pounce a carno head, sure, but it can bite you. Pounce a rex, yeah, you can hold on there, but.. well, rex goes nom. I don't think being able to pounce onto the front couldn't work, but it would be dependent on what you're pouncing, and the ones you can hold on to, are most likely also the ones that can punish you rather quickly and harshly. Same thing could possibly apply to tails, if we want to adjust by species, with the ones having longer and thinner tails having the ends not count, while something like a trike or possible other ceratopsid could count, since I think their tails are rather short and "stocky" possibly.

golden coral
# trim rose No. I shouldn't need to have to wait & plan with a friend just to be able to pla...

If you don't want to "wait and plan" with people, or even solo, then that's on you. This goes for every single playable. You can grow and play without a plan, but well, it's not going to work out well for you and it shouldn't. Sure, you should be viable to survive solo, this also goes for all playables, but that does not remove the need to play smart and all that. And when you're in a pack or herd, it's a given to plan together on how to handle situations.

elder steppe
golden coral
elder steppe
#

😛

golden coral
#

@elder steppeAnyway, that could be interesting, making some critters more viable to pounce from the front, like bigger hadrosaurs that while still biting you, is liable to do less damage, vs pouncing the tail of something where you end up close to the base and thus can hold on. I do prefer if things come down more to the species you're up against than just a general solution.

elder steppe
#

maybe some of the sauropods would be viable to being pounced on the head or neck

#

they are adding sauropods right?

golden coral
#

They are, but I imagine those, except the tiny magy, is probably just going to not be pouncable at all honestly. That's a bit of a too big class for anything but an apex to go after most likely.

#

At least fully grown ones, younger ones on the other hand.. :p

elder steppe
#

yeah, thinking about it that makes sense

golden coral
#

Also I don't know if we get playable big sauropods, but hopefully!

elder steppe
#

I don't know about shants man, those derpy logs on legs give me the chills

golden coral
#

Now there's a target for utahs if anything! :D

elder steppe
#

YES. DOWN WITH THE SHANTS!!!

trim rose
# thin mantle Well fortunately you don't have to, just eat lower difficulty targets, like dryo...

Sure, I could try to do that. But I shouldn't have to. Given the scarcity of food, how little you have in your stomach when you first spawn in, the decreased AI spawns, how difficult it is to find any juvi Herbies, I think I should be able to hunt a Boar if I want to.
Imo you already have to be pretty good at Utah, even with the improved pounce, to hunt targets larger than yourself (Stego, Teno, Carno). I don't even hunt Deino lol. As for pachy, you still need to be rather skilled to try to hunt them.
I don't really care what you'd recommend. Packing up should be an encouragement, not a life or death requirement. Utah is beloved to me & I've been playing it for years, and I shouldn't need to rely on VC or highly skilled coordination with other skilled players just to simply be able to play the game & survive as it. You can say 'hunt easier targets' all you want, but the food is scarce and hard to find and we are hunting whatever we can.
Growing a Utah army through nesting is not very much possible and I don't know why you're thinking that. It has been hardly viable for me as a Utah or any of the packmates I've been with. The nutrients are too difficult to keep filled. We are constantly running around looking for food over vast distances, and then if the body is large, we can't exactly easily carry it back to the nesting Utahs over all that distance. There is no such thing as nesting in an army lol.
AI like frogs & rabbits is an option. AI like Boar would not be an option without the improved pounce, which you don't want. AI like Deer is not an option for a young Utah because it's simply too quick and it will sense you no matter what you do; whether you're crouching, hiding behind a bush, coming up behind it, waiting for it to drop its head to graze, etc. It'll still sense you.

thin mantle
# trim rose I disagree with this, too. Utah is not a competent fighter without pounce imo. S...

You deal over a 3rd of a carno's bite despite being almost a 4th of it's size....you're the second fastest land animal currently, you have the second best jump in the game with loads of rocks and logs to use as either safe points or obstacles for those who can't scale them, your agility as a predator literally isn't matched, it's only slightly worse than dryo's purely due to inertia and you're still 3 times its size. You have one of the highest sprinting stamina degen timers of any creature, you regen stam faster than any other creature par hypsi.....and because of your growth time its easier to accumulate numbers. Your literal only weakness is your hp, and even still you can tank any attack in the game at least once bar the apex duo of stego and deino.
I'm not sure how much clearer I can make it that utah has a whole fucking lot going for it irrespective of pounce, pounce just elevates it from being a really strong playable to being a borderline busted strong playable due to your ownership of the highest bleed damage application rate in the game bar stegos swing.

As far as pounce having reduced viability amongst the majority of players, yes, they'd have to adjust and get better, use terrain and distractions more, rely on their packmates more, etc.
Can't even remotely see that as a bad thing tbh.
It wasn't too difficult before, it was irrespective of skill before, it would randomly decide to either not work or kill you, thats not even remotely the same thing as you missing a pounce or pouncing the wrong part of the animal and needing to recover for less than a second.

Oh, well that's convenient, I play a shit ton of utah so I suppose I can speak on the behalf of someone who "actually plays and enjoys utah", pounce is too easy rn and with the recent changes its gotten significantly more forgiving than before. It'd be more enjoyable if it demanded more interaction and thought from me, by far. The ability is overly simple as of rn. A crying shame for a pack hunter.

elder steppe
frail bobcat
trim rose
# golden coral If you don't want to "wait and plan" with people, or even solo, then that's on y...

"Sure, you should be viable to survive solo." That's exactly what I was saying. Nor was I even implying Utahs shouldn't need to "play smart." The problem is that I think Utahs still need to play smart even with the improved pounce and some others disagree with me.

You'd be surprised how poorly coordinated Utah packs are & have always been. Even if I did try to plan and was spamming chat or talking over multiple voices in VC, trying my hardest to make people listen and help me come up with a plan, to wait & coordinate & be smart, there will always be people who don't listen & do whatever they want, etc. That's just why I think Utah, like every other dino, needs to at least be viable on its own.

trim rose
edgy finch
thin mantle
# trim rose Sure, I could *try* to do that. But I shouldn't have to. Given the scarcity of f...

You still can, spawn with a friend, bait the boar towards one of you while the other lands the pounce, rinse and repeat till it dies.
If you didn't care we wouldn't be talking rn.
It isn't a life or death requirement, you can survive without hunting large game, scavenging and AI are viable options even now, again, I've grown several utahs since U5's launch, it's not absurdly difficult, even easier with packmates.
I've told you before, you can play utah without a pack and survive just fine, but getting packmates will enhance the experience of utah moreso than any other, as that is utahs purpose, it's mechanic should reflect that, currently it barely does comparative to any other animal.
You don't need VC, plan your strats in chat with randoms, I do it all the time, works fairly well.
I know growing a utah army is possible because of done it, twice.
Its not easy but you can do it.
If the body is large, eat your fill, go back to the nest, send the utahs that were at the nest to the body to eat while you take over nesting duties, babies eat directly from the parents, you don't need corpses near your nest for this to work.

Oh now we're getting into a completely different topic, yes AI needs improvements, crouching and foliage should reduce their detection range, anyway moving on.

Boar AI is an option, bring a friend, or maybe this simply doesn't apply to AI....like I said in my second message.

thin mantle
#

Like you keep making binary statements about how difficult utah would be with this system, it doesn't become impossible to survive alone as a utah because you need to pounce the flank of a target, it just becomes harder, with a heavier emphasis on tactics and packmates

golden coral
thin mantle
#

Some matchups can't be bridged purely through skill or practice

golden coral
thin mantle
golden coral
#

The same should go for any playable. If you want to go solo utah, you should be able to survive just fine. Sure, you're going to miss out on 95% of all the cool hunts due to being solo, but you're alive and all, and that's the point of the survival game I think :p

trim rose
# thin mantle You deal over a 3rd of a carno's bite despite being almost a 4th of it's size......

Being the second fastest land animal, having the ability to jump onto the lower parts of rocks, and having high sprinting stamina degen (which decreases once you're an adult) are mainly things that help Utah run away. The ability to jump is virtually useless in hunting/combat, and I never use it (I used to use it all the time in Legacy). When we pounce, it uses up our stamina very quickly, so our stamina advantage goes out the window.

"As far as pounce having reduced viability amongst the majority of players, yes." Again, this is what I mean. You don't care about average player enjoyment and how viable it is for them. You say the pounce should be extremely difficult to use, VERY high skill ceiling, yet it sounds like you also want to decrease the damage of it so that it's even less rewarding. You want it to be the most difficult skill to execute out of all the dinos without it even being a death sentence when it is executed properly so that way most people just don't even bother using it, you don't want Utah players to be viable alone it seems & to be forced to rely on other average players via difficult communication means like typing in chat or less desirable means like having to use an outside program like Discord to VC, probably a large VC with multiple people all speaking over each other, which may also slow down some people's performance, and you don't care if they can hunt larger AI like Boar or Deer--not even with the decreased AI spawns. It's just wild to me.

tall bronze
#

Isn't the goal just to survive though? If you get away by jumping or running away, you're winning 😛

azure hinge
#

^

#

you my sir are the smartest one in the balance feedback discussion chat

#

id buy you a nice ice cream from dairy queen if i could

golden coral
#

xD

tall bronze
golden coral
azure hinge
#

dont take it so literal i get your upset

#

but this isnt a fighting game not everything has to kill verything

#

the point of the game isnt a 1v1 arena

#

some things arent balanced to well but some things also arent supposed to be able to 1v1

golden coral
#

I.. don't think anyone has argued otherwise? :p

thin mantle
# trim rose Being the second fastest land animal, having the ability to jump onto the lower ...

Those are all things that help utah jump in and out of combat, the agility makes you uniquely capable of dodging attacks point blank quite effectively, and running away is absolutely apart of combat, anything utilizing hit and run tactics does this, that isn't a mark against utahs combat capability, if anything it having the option to run away is leagues more autonomy than most have.
Plus escape in a survival game ensures survival, the whole point of the game.
Using pounce drains stamina, so dismount at 25-50% stam and go on a rock to regen, have your packmates stall till you've regened, rince and repeat.
I don't intrinsically see something being more difficult as less fun, so I'm almost incapable of sympathizing with the stance that utah having more conditions for its pounce would make it less fun, coming from a utah/teno main that'd only make pouncing more satisfying to execute.
Do I want it's damage reduced? No not necessarily, I do if pounce is to remain the same as it is now, probably wouldn't be necessary with these additional conditions. But yeah I want it to be an incredibly high skill ceiling ability, or rather, skill floor. Whereas most animals in utahs size range just have to run from any larger animals, or get out of their way, utah has the unique opportunity to face almost any animal of almost any size, this is a gargantuan increase of your viable targets, so yeah the ability should be hard to use.

I want this strawman to die now, so I'll repeat for the....5th time?
Utah is viable with or without pounce, pounce increases it's prey range but utah is still very physically capable, pounce can be used normally against AI...scavenging is an option, survival = viability, you can survive as a solo utah without pounce even now.

AND AGAIN

You can coordinate in chat, VC isn't necessary. I've said this 3 times now.

thin mantle
tall bronze
azure hinge
#

i just think they need to add more mid sized animals into the game

#

currently the pool is so small half the server is carnos and utahs

#

so people are always going to have this argument of how the balance should be between the 2

tall bronze
#

Ptera and Deino are like their own thing, so it just feels like Ootah and Corno ;C

azure hinge
#

then you have like 10-20 deinos which no one will ever see unless they are being followed from the water an d there is no competition there

#

and then like 5 pteras that dont contribute to the food chain at all cause they give 1% hunger no one cares to even attack them

trim rose
# thin mantle You still can, spawn with a friend, bait the boar towards one of you while the o...

I disagree. I've tried that with packmates. The boar turns and faces whoever is closer to it, so as soon as the other Utah sneaks up behind, it'll turn to it. Especially since you need to be virtually touching something to pounce it.
You can survive without hunting large game, yeah? But Boar isn't like ... really large game lol.
I'm fine with it enhancing the experience, I'm not fine with it being a necessity.
Well, that's good for you, I guess, but planning strats rarely ever work out for me. So I'd like to be viable alone if necessary.
That's wild. I've never done it. Often, feeding the babies gets glitched for me and I can't even feed them. It's also been impossible for me most of the time to have full nutrients to give them the best start in life. You're saying, "if the body is large," but most bodies for me, even with improved pounce, are not large lol. I've never grown a Utah army or even been apart of a Utah megapack for very long because they're just not sustainable. Everyone gets extremely hungry and roams around far, far away from nests and is very uncoordinated. So idk what else to say to you on that. It just hasn't been my experience.

tall bronze
thin mantle
# trim rose I disagree. I've tried that with packmates. The boar turns and faces whoever is ...

Regardless....I've already said this can simply not apply to AI, and Boar's do have a turn rate now so if you're close enough to it you can land a sneaky pounce as it transfers agro, but regardless it doesn't need to apply to AI.
It's not a necessity, it just makes it drastically easier, ambushing an unsuspecting target as a solo utah landing a perfect flank pounce on the target and bleeding them out is totally possible, this would work with teno's pachies and carnos, carnos being the hardest of the bunch to do this with, but if you keep applying pressure with bites afterwards and conserving the rest of your stam you can solo all 3 with enough patience. Even with this new pounce functionality.
Again, I nor Erik have advocated so far for Utah being rendered unviable, the ease of use with pounce would just decrease for solo players, you still have your agility and bite attacks, as well as stealth and scavenging.
Oh well even if you had food nearby the nest the babies would starve if you can't feed them manually, babies can't eat food nor graze, they require "Bird Feeding".
My advice to you would be to find friends who play utah and play with them, all of my armies or larger packs were formed with a couple friends of mine, the randoms came and went but we still had our base pack of 3, the largest our group got was 9, at that point there was little we couldn't take down as we'd discussed our strategies beforehand.
Good times.

thin mantle
trim rose
# thin mantle Those are all things that help utah jump in and out of combat, the agility makes...

Yeah, dude, escape in survival game does ensure survival. Escape does not make someone OP in combat... That's all I was saying.
That's if you're near a rock to regen lol?
So you see it as a challenge and that's good for you. I and many others see something like pounce being very high skill level & very difficult to execute as not being viable to use and as making survival a constant, exhausting grind because it would make hunts more difficult & last longer & peopel would be starving even more than they currently are.
Idk what you mean by strawman lol. I didn't make up a strawman. I disagreed with you that Utah is viable without pounce. Scavenging is not always an option; scavenging is luck.
You can say it a 4th time if it makes you feel better, but I acknowledged you said people can coordinate in chat, I'm just including VC as an alternate option that some people expect Utah players to use.

tall bronze
trim rose
#

I've got to run some errands now but Fluff, we can simply just agree to disagree. I disagree with you. That's all.

hasty coyote
thin mantle
# trim rose Yeah, dude, escape in survival game does ensure survival. Escape does not make s...

Since you're heading out this response is just for the record.

Well, no escape is very relevant when you have a group, because you can cycle members of your group into CQC and let the ones low on stam rest on elevated locations. If utah was significantly slower and couldn't jump, bushes would be the only choice for these tactics, so it's very combat relevant. And that doesn't make it OP, I'm saying it's very physically competent without pounce. Rocks are borderline everywhere, unless you're in the dead center of....center....you'll always be within 100 meters of a rock you can jump on.

"I shouldn't have to have a group to use pounce or to be able to simply survive"

This along with the point about VCs are not points I've made, considering I was referencing chat exclusively throughout our discussion I can't interpret both of these in any way but fabricated arguments to misrepresent my own, I'm not a member of the hive mind, I disagree that VC is necessary, so VC isn't relevant to the topic, nor are the stances of others you've heard use VCs as an argument.

Finding prey is luck based, not running into a random forest carno is luck based, finding packmates is luck based, most things in this game are based on probability you can manipulate, all of which listed above can be adjusted through scenting and using your calls. And plus, a utah can fill up on a single boar, it can almost fully fill up on a single goat or dear, if you know where these spawn it's not super difficult to live off of any of those 3, so yeah utah is totally viable without the use of pounce or even other players, pounce just increases it's options and security.
If you don't think utah is viable without pounce I'd definitely wanna know why specifically, as survival off of AI is totally possible if you're aware of where to look. But regardless, good chat and thanks for keeping it civilTI_ParaBaby

trim rose
# thin mantle Since you're heading out this response is just for the record. Well, no escape ...

I would say that escape is actually even less relevant when you have a group to protect you so you can escape or cycle out; anyone who groups up could do that. There are a lot of rocks, yes, but I have been in situations where I was looking for a rock to escape and heal and couldn't find one in time.

This along with the point about VCs are not points I've made, considering I was referencing chat exclusively throughout our discussion I can't interpret both of these in any way but fabricated arguments to misrepresent my own
Bruh. This whole time I've been saying I don't think Utah is a very competent fighter/hunter without its pounce, especially this improved pounce. Which means I don't think it would be viable alone without this. So no, I'm not trying to strawman you. As for the VCs, I already explained I was considering it an alternative option to chat (because I know some people will say, "then just VC"--I'm just covering my bases when I add this). Because as I said before, alt bite quickly drains your stam and a regular bite doesn't do much damage. Your solutions to these have just been to hunt juvies & AI, and I've been trying to tell you that's not always an option (in fact, it's barely an option imo), especially with the recent decrease in AI (most of the AI I come across are Boars, which I could not hunt unless I was an adult without the current pounce, or Deer, which I cannot catch unless I'm an adult) & juvi Pachies & Tenos have been virtually non-existent for me. Most of what I have come across to hunt in Update 5 have been Boar, Deer, Carnos, young or adult Stegos (but only around 2 Juvies), Hypsies, adult Pachies, & sub-adult or full adult Tenos. Before this improved pounce, I felt I couldn't hunt almost anything. Since the improved pounce, I've been having fun and actually feel like it's worth it to attempt hunts I wouldn't before. I've still died loads of times despite this, but it has been a huge improvement in my opinion.

trim rose
# thin mantle Since you're heading out this response is just for the record. Well, no escape ...

Sorry, but I'm not aware of all the places to look to find different AI. And many people aren't. & I feel like it keeps changing with updates. Rn most of what I know is that I can usually find Boar near old Oasis, I sometimes stumble into Boar or Deer in random patches of jungle, I sometimes stumble into rabbits in grasslands but it's rare for me, I've seen 1 single frog near a waterfall at Center, I could probably find sea turtles on the beach but there's no reason for me to go there. I've randomly come across 2-3 chickens in open grassland areas.

I was going to suggest we try playing together because I'd like to see how you play & coordinate in a group, but I don't like the way you speak to me sometimes lol. So. This'll be my last response. I feel I've explained my opinion as best I can and if you disagree, that's aight.

dusky surge
#

@zealous void You bring up a lot of good points, however, I think the weird part about this change is absolutely that it was released alongside nesting, which outright requires you to be able to feed yourself, a mate and kids at minimum, all while not moving much from one spot.

#

Like it's kinda insane how hard it is to settle down and nest

#

As a utahraptor trying to nest, you might as well nest on the next carno/teno you kill since they will at least give you decent food

frail bobcat
#

Can confirm. I nested as a utah and the only reason I didnt starve were a couple carno bodies

mighty knot
#

Can confirm if server is not teaming with life it can be tough to keep more than one utah from starving, let alone 2 and needing to stay in one place for a long time.

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Carno too. Nesting without a body carno-sized or larger next to the nest is tempting fate

short spire
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I think what should happen is that they can keep the faster hunger on juvies, but adults should drain much slower so they can actually nest

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you get all the benefits of minimizing afk growing while actually having time to nest

dusky surge
#

i think it was to minimise megapacking

short spire
#

well it doesnt really help that much with that

#

still no real reason not to group up with more people

keen plover
#

Yeah, they didn't want update 4.5 levels of megapacking. Kind of sucks imo. All they needed to do was lower the AI food values and not the playable food values

#

Or at the very least make larger playables food values more so they're prime targets. Idk

mighty knot
#

megapacks didn't even get better they just got a better reason to be aggressive

#

still swarms of carnos and utahs every here and there, it's just they are killing to survive instead of killing for sport now

#

carnos especially because if they come across a stego or something, they can survive off their fallen groupmates and get at the very least good diet for it

keen plover
#

Oh yeah, still mobs. Which will never change with carno. You need competition rather than just staving the thing out

mighty knot
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absolutely

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literally gave the thing incentive to kill and eat everything including it's own species

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and then also made them starve out if they don't

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the most effecient way to do that is to have lots of carnos, since you have a higher chance at winning a fight or having a successful hunt

#

and the more carnos you have, the more can die in a fight with a tough foe

#

which ALSO results in reward for the rest of the carnos

remote bane
#

If the reduced AI and hunger drain was meant to stop megapacks, then they managed to do the exact opposite. Carnis practically zerg swarm anything now because staying in big numbers gives them better chances of hunting something and actually surviving because they're always, 24/7 starving with no other options since AI is impossible to find and subsist on.

mighty knot
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there's no reason not to really

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you're starving and running around for food all the time anyway

obtuse ocean
#

You guys complaining about food? Its a hardcore survival game, if i could get fat in this game my carno would look like a rex before update

mighty knot
keen plover
#

I remember update 4 when food values were equally as low and ai was smaller. Carno just ran around oasis mob killing everything then starve out as soon as the bodies disappeared. Then the cycle would continue when other player population boomed again.

obtuse ocean
#

People running around killing eachothers for food, as it should

mighty knot
#

constantly without end

remote bane
#

It's literally not feasible to be nesting either. Not unless you sit on a body, which will eventually disappear or attract a megapack towards you lol.

obtuse ocean
#

yea, and now people dont kos. They actyally need the food

mighty knot
#

If you aren't killing everything you see now, you are tempting fate

keen plover
#

Carno has 0 downtime. You stay still for 5-10 minutes, you risk starving

mighty knot
#

^

obtuse ocean
#

Good, i cant sit in a bush

keen plover
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Nesting...

mighty knot
#

you also can't interact with the new system implemented with the update

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at all

remote bane
#

Literally no sense to be encouraged to not sit in one place while adding a mechanic that has you sit in one place. None.

keen plover
#

Also downtime could also just be exploring and chilling around an area

obtuse ocean
#

Nah, people kill eachtother much more now. As intended. Its supose to be hardcore survival

remote bane
#

You're missing the point.

keen plover
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This is beyond just killing. This is mass killing

mighty knot
keen plover
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Literally need to kill everything you see

remote bane
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It is killing on sight. Killing everything you see, because otherwise you might not get the chance to eat again.

obtuse ocean
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Im playing carno have no problem finding food with just AI

keen plover
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AI has a problem where it doesn't respawn well

mighty knot
remote bane
#

Where on earth do you play that you magically have a lot of AI.

mighty knot
#

literally any time spent doing anything else is a risk

obtuse ocean
#

Well much better seeeing big groups sitting and doing nothing

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Cus they have no problem with food

remote bane
#

What do you care what other groups do though? You want to run around and hunt all the time, you can do that. But other playstyles should be able to exist too.

keen plover
#

You know there's a balance they can do right? It doesn't need to be as easy as 4.5 but not as difficult as now

remote bane
#

Again - they added nesting.

mighty knot
#

"hardcore survival" doesn't need to mean constant risk of starvation because your dinosaur can't sit to nest or chat or explore for 5 minutes without loosing half of it's hunger.

obtuse ocean
#

I hate running around killing, i live only on AI until something attacks me

mighty knot
#

It can mean having an unforgiving environment (deinos at water, very fast deaths to very fast animals larger than you, ect.)

short spire
obtuse ocean
#

I mean i do get your point, i see it. But its much better to have people running around actally looking for food then seeing groups doing nothing because food is everywhere

remote bane
#

I said it before and I'll say it again, the discrepancy between current need to always be on the lookout for food and the need for downtime that nesting is about is too big right now.
Also, real animals don't need to hunt constantly. A big meal should sustain them for a while. They should be able to just laze around.

mighty knot
#

I hate to see the "realism" point in a discussion about the isle but yeah

obtuse ocean
#

Then you wouldt have body campers

remote bane
#

I still think it's ridiculous that carnivores can't get all the nutrients they need from one successful hunt, or at least more than one. Meat is meat. But whatever.

mighty knot
keen plover
#

Food doesn't need to be 'everywhere'. Carno at max group is a trio hunter. A single teno body should last a long time for them.

mighty knot
#

^

keen plover
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A single teno body should be 30min - 1 hour of down time

short spire
#

imo, mid-apex adults should only have to hunt every few days, but that hunt should be big. (alternatively they could constantly eat small stuff.)

mighty knot
#

I think healing times just need to be longer all around

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not right now, it would be pain in the ass

#

but hunger drain lowered a bunch, healing times increased a bunch

#

that way it's not actually worth it to engage in a fight with something just to fight it

#

imo the end goal should be forcing players to pick fights wisely

keen plover
#

healing times being longer only screws with slower creatures more. The fast ones can avoid getting hit and chased.

mighty knot
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and rewarding them for making a good choice and executing the fight well

short spire
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it should be different for each dino

mighty knot
#

fast things are always gonna not get hit by big things

short spire
#

tanks should have faster healing since their whole thing is being able to... tank damage

mighty knot
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they might right now

keen plover
short spire
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agile dinos should have slower healing to punish them for not utilizing agility

mighty knot
#

I like that idea

#

I think honestly percent based healing times should be basically the same all around

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in the time it takes a carno to heal 50% of it's health on perfect diet, a stego should do the same

#

tanks benefit from having higher health because they heal more HP in the same amount of time

#

I also think if HP healing was based on blood pool it would make it better for persistence hunters like utahs

#

so that larger things don't just outheal like utah pounce

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physical damage wise

#

lower the blood total the lower the HP heal

#

but after all a change this big to the isle is unheard of
I doubt the devs are particularly focused on perfectly balancing the roster and game before adding new animals

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that mentality stopped when the first roster update was released

half girder
#

@vapid pulsar wdym

vapid pulsar
# half girder <@265942976885161985> wdym

Have you played pachy? It is a joke right now. 1 pounce from Utah for 2+ seconds can make you bleed out if they constantly attacking you.
The stamina is another joke, you cannot even run now, you literally need run 50 m and sit down to gain the stamina back. 4+ rams and you are out of stam again.

Other than that, welcome to my ted talk, and go play Utah or something else. RIP PACHY. 2022-2022.

half girder
#

i dont really think its all that bad, stam wise it seems fine, i think its just the mechanics in fracture that need to be touched up

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i gave my feedback and it got alot of endorsement so im happy with that.

vapid pulsar
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One pachy vs 2 utahs was a joke yesterday, no wonder no one plays pachy right now

half girder
#

yeah, utah is the counter to pachy now.

#

i think a dmg buff will do though

obtuse ocean
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Pachy is not a joke, its utah thats a joke

azure crescent
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@alpine nest the issue of the damage nerf is pachy vs utah being way more utah sided than it was before

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pachy was supposed to counter utah, and it still does, except it struggles in that now, which it shouldn't

pliant peak
#

Pachy once land a good alt attack, Utah knocked down, Pachy break it's leg and just kill the Utah cuz it can't run away.

keen plover
#

But bring in another utah and there is no skill involved. Just get a few bites each and you can tank a decent amount of hits from the pachy together. There is no fear. I've done that so many times this patch. No pounce needed. Utah bite buff, pounce miss timer being lower, universal knockdowns timer being shorter and lower pachy charge damage makes utah pretty good in the matchup against pachy. Tbf, even a utah with a working pounce was good enough to hunt a pachy. All these other factors brings the fight to be more even

obtuse ocean
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Yea i have same experience as you described now

keen plover
#

Pachy was meant to fight off 2-3 utahs solo. The fractures and damage was meant to intimidate utahs if they didn't land the pounce in an ambush

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The risk for them was if they missed the pounce, the pachy could probably end them or get them low enough to run away. Now? You have multiple opportunities. Not a fun fate for a pachy

hollow canyon
#

I really, really think that the idea of a single Pachy fighting off 2-3 Utahs is absolutely ridiculous.

keen plover
#

Pretty sure that was the idea Filipe was throwing up when they were developing the thing.

#

Let me go through dev comments... For now, only I've said it *

hollow canyon
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1v1 I think it should have some advantage over Utah but I really don't see why a herbivore should have the upper hand over 2-3 carnivores its own size

dusky surge
#

it could fracture them, sure, but killing 2-3 utahs is... ehhh

keen plover
#

I mean, it could 100% do it last patch pretty well if you dodged the pounces

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Well, I can't find anything and I can not be bothered looking through pachy dev streams to find a quote so for now, only I've said it

#

But imo, a pachy should be able to handle 2 utahs at least.

dusky surge
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i reckon it can in this patch, but not with kills

keen plover
keen plover
#

Well damn, guess I remember this wrong. #isle-discussion message Even if this was saying that pachy could beat 2 utahs, that was previous old balance so it's irrelevant for now.

hollow canyon
keen plover
hexed sorrel
#

I was a FRESH spawn carno and I was 59 kg, I am a 50% UTAH and I am 62 KG????

hollow canyon
#

Nothing surprising about that considering how growth curves work in this game

#

read: badly

raw reef
#

update on my deino killing spree

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still alive and 1 more dead,stegos p funny yall

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just watching them feast on their own as i heal

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add 1 more to dead deino counter

raw reef
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please fix your game i killed 4 more

azure hinge
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i think the devs want stego to be able to absolutely murder deino's

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idk though maybe its just a big oversight but they definitely new of the problem of how much stronger stego is vs deino in the water

obtuse ocean
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Or just swim away ?

azure hinge
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correct no you arent wrong

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idk that wasnt what i said though

#

i said stego is so much stronger which is what i said

obtuse ocean
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and so what ? not everything is fair, but you have an option not to fight em

azure hinge
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you arent wrong i did say that, too. that or a big oversight yes exactly

topaz elm
#

Not much experience with it in the water, I usually don't pick fights with stuff I do not want, but it definetly makes sense to not be able to just crawl on land and then kill a Stego in a outright fight on land

obtuse ocean
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i mean they are 1 shot until 80% : P sorta

#

i mean they are 1 shot until 80% : P sorta

azure hinge
#

yeah not wrong no one said anything about deino being stronger than a stego 1v1 either i dont think

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or even fighting a stego on land

obtuse ocean
#

i mean i see your point, i got chased by 2 stegos today in water lol

azure hinge
#

plus a stego can always run away on land regardless of how strong they want to make deino if they changed anything

topaz elm
#

I think I get what you mean, in water, but I feel that comes from Stego being able to tank the bites to get out and then give back damage

azure hinge
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deino cant even chase down something that runs away from water bank they are so slow

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well i think the other guy was making the point it is impossible to even kill a stego

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like at all even have a chance 5 v 1 and he still killed 2

obtuse ocean
#

I mean i dont see allo killing a rex, but it can prob be done : P

slim dragon
#

I've seen deinos kill adult stegos
But they need to know what they're doing to achieve that
Which seems to be extremely rare among deinos

raw reef
#

ok like,i get wanting stego to counter deino

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but i have killed 9 deinos so far,8 solo

#

this shits so bad

#

its not like they are stupid deinos too,they cut my path and bite me on the face as much as they can,i can just tank way too many hits have the better stam and better dmg lmao

azure hinge
#

even the stego king massacre 3000, who has been slaughtering deinos all day

obtuse ocean
#

how on earth can u slaughter deinos as stegos, do they like walk up on land and try fighting it ?

#

how on earth can u slaughter deinos as stegos, do they like walk up on land and try fighting it ?

raw reef
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lmao i just sit my butt near the water

#

wait for them to get cocky/corpse guard

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like if your in a group of adult deinos and you see a stego stick its body in the water you are gona go try to fight that dude

#

but too bad because i can 3 v 1 them lmao

#

not like im good with stego or anything my first time playing stego ever

#

id say for stego maybe slightly buff its turn and make its headshot multiplier 3 - 4 x,would prevent stegos from being more offensive but instead trying to use their turn in place and stab predators around more

alpine plover
#

@opaque beacon stego literally dissolves from utahs now that pounce doesnt break. If you dont jump off in the right direction, or jump somewhere were a hit is guaranteed (uphill, against a wall) it's kinda your fault

#

Also, if you pounce now it drains stamina so in around 10 minutes the stego will be out of stam from bleed, swings, and drain. All you need to kill a stego is patience

raw reef
#

to be fair pouncing a stego aint the brightest idea anyways just because you can just 1 shot them as soon as they have to hop off

frail bobcat
raw reef
#

i mean,you kinda cant rn lmao

frail bobcat
#

Utah packs. . .

#

Happens all the time

raw reef
#

idk i been mobbed by utahs when i was half bled down from deinos,they just pounced me and when they tried to get down i just 1 shotted them because their pounce doesnt take them out of the range of my tailswing

frail bobcat
#

They pounced on the wrong spot

frail bobcat
raw reef
#

idk bad utahs then lol

raw reef
frail bobcat
#

Update 4 or update 5?

raw reef
#

5

frail bobcat
#

K

tight cove
#

i took down an adult stego yesterday in a utah pack, its def possible lol

#

and as a deino you need a group to kill a stego

opaque beacon
half girder
crude blaze
#

if herbivores need a debuff for fighting too long, so do carnivores. :) that's my opinion on that

#

otherwise you'll get just random tiny carnivores or pteros circling above herbivores for 20 minutes spam calling and occasionally pecking, debuffing the entire herd, and then calling in it's 'discord raptor clan' to wipe house

hollow canyon
#

@wraith thistle Herbivores can absolutely go out of there way to attack carnivores... I do think however that - as feedback above yours has stated - herbivores might just be a tad bit too strong when compared to carnivores(except Utah, Utah is better than Pachy but it's an exception) which does make them a bit more likely to actively go after carnivores. Especially that they're also easier to grow and maintain.

wraith thistle
#

@hollow canyon can you point to a living or extinct herbivore that thrived by instigating fights with their predator?
Im not talking about large herbies that defend themselves and their packs... im talking about a continued effort to chase and find fights

thin mantle
#

Well, aside from stego and deinos relationship, which is the way it is for reasons other than purely combat balance

hollow canyon
hollow canyon
#

And Tenonto is at the end of the day smaller than Carno even if the two are comparable in size. Herbivores just generally have the advantage, they are stronger, easier to grow in a far more reliable way and are much easier to maintain than carnivores.

wraith thistle
hollow canyon
#

Remove the last video

#

it breaks the rules

#

We're not supposed to post videos showing animals in distress

#

But yea on the first one you see a Gaur actively going after a tiger

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without being provoked in any way

wraith thistle
#

lmao. ohk.

hollow canyon
#

Besides what do you mean exactly by "herbivores are rewarded"?

#

they don't necessarily get rewarded in the game for doing so they just don't get punished for it and they technically get rid off future threats

#

so it's a sensible thing to do

#

carnivores also imo have more to lose in a fight than herbivores do

short spire
#

@wraith thistle if you’re being attacked by a herbi who you know is stronger than you, run the fuck away. Herbis are rewarded for attacking carnivores in their vicinity, but they are punished if they chase them too far, with both lowered stamina and further from the herd. This is… exactly how it works in real life.

wraith thistle
# hollow canyon But yea on the first one you see a Gaur actively going after a tiger

notice how the guar postures and threatens but never makes contact with the tiger?
Also notice how with hundreds of buffalo around only one or two will get involved in the fight, and most of the time that causes Friendly fire.

I think the issue is this:
One can not put the brain of a human into the body of an herbie, give that herbie all the trappings of an apex predator and expect that human to play like an herbivore. There is no fight or flight for herbies controlled by humans, there is only fight, and find fights.

im sorry @short spire are you trying to tell me that predators run from prey? cuz it sounds like you are trying to tell me predators run from prey... but that cant be what you are saying

short spire
#

If the carnivore is weaker than the herbivore, the herbivore is not it’s prey.

#

Contrary to popular belief, herbivores are not just meatsacks for carnivores to kill.

wraith thistle
#

name something stronger than a 100% steggo

short spire
#

Pack of utahs

hollow canyon
#

The gaur doesn't make contact with the tiger because the tiger simply runs off there.

short spire
#

Yep the tiger knows it’s outmatched and leaves

hollow canyon
#

You're right that the humans being behind herbivores is what might make them play in a way that's off.

#

Well... idk about the tiger being outmatched, they do hunt gaurs and kill them quite commonly, it's more so that the tiger simply isn't interested in having that fight right there and then.

short spire
#

Yeah fair

strong solar
#

@warm fox I usually play Carno and would like to ask, what went wrong when you attacked this teno? You can’t facetank it’s tail or else you’ll die if that’s what happened

#

also herbivores that are slower than you need to be able to defend themselves, evrima cannot be made into legacy 2.0

warm fox
# strong solar <@539953600491683841> I usually play Carno and would like to ask, what went wron...

I had been chasing a pachy and had gotten a few bites out of it whilst I was in center. The teno came out of no where, and there were reports of tenos being "suspicious" on NA3 at the time this happened. So my stamina was low already and the teno chased me down and tail slammed me, knocked me down and even after a few bites I was gone. It was mostly the fact that I had been on a pachys butt for a while before it came after me.

#

So my stamina was low and they have more stamina than me in general so I lost that battle, and then it just kept hitting me.

#

And for the record baby stegos were also attacking me as I got their pachy friend and they did some damage too which I felt was imbalanced.

#

The pachy did not get me however.

#

What I find is most herbivore players enjoy sport killing so much they dont understand its fustrating and call it salty.

#

Whereas they... dont die.

true needle
keen plover
#

What's up with the recent influx of salt emojis to posts? TE_KEKWlaugh

true needle
urban briar
#

What I wanna know is what has possessed grown utahs to resort to killing smaller utahs? After update 5 it's been almost nonstop. It's at the point before diets when you had utahs killing each other to survive. They aren't doing it to survive they're doing it to be dicks. Sharing a meal and then killing you as you finish it. Then blaming it on spasms.

dusky surge
#

hunger

urban briar
# dusky surge hunger

I played pachy for 6 hours yesterday with 2 friends. We crossed south river bumped into carnos got into a fight and everyone died. There was 3 carno bodies and 3 pachy bodies all full when we respawned. Utahs showed up instantly so we spawned as utahs to get an easy meal that WE earned lmfao. I got the cannibal killed though he killed like 4 little utahs.

keen plover
#

Ah, some people like to kill regardless of dietary requirements

#

Very common with herbis

keen plover
urban briar
#

I don't go near other herbivores especially when I play herbivore but this Utah situation is particularly bad.

true needle
#

I’ve only been attacked by packys as an herbivore. One time I was attacked by a teno.

urban briar
#

I play teno and get attacked by pachy so I'm good lol

true needle
#

For the most parts herbivores wanna group. Besides stego though they always Agro

mellow zenith
#

Deino vs Deino, any tips to win a fight ? Is it really just the first to bite win ?
Spam alt bite or not ?

somber sphinx
#

Pretty mutch Yeah, the first one that gets the hit wins

true ginkgo
#

huh how come people like dryo one shotting hypsi?

#

i thought that would be a popular suggestion

mellow zenith
somber sphinx
somber sphinx
mellow zenith
#

Ok, so by default if another deino is too close, attacking is the best action imo

true ginkgo
somber sphinx
keen plover
#

I don't think it's really wanting dryo to one shot hypsi, rather they don't want dryo damage to be nerfed since they may like the idea of such a 'high' damage dryo

hollow canyon
#

either that or mixpacking

true ginkgo
#

the animal has such a long thin tail, that whipping like an iguana could be cool.

keen plover
#

I think the damage may be a placeholder anyway. Since dryo is lacking features

keen plover
#

I know people wanted stationary kicks, but that would probs just be galli 2

true ginkgo
true needle
#

Sounds like killing a carno when he was distracted. This helps the teno survive later cause it’s one less carno to deal with

keen plover
#

I like the idea of carno having stego on its diets short term. At least for the third diet. Deer and dryo are quite small, so something larger to fill that void would be nice. I don't see why carnos can not hunt stegos, I mean they can hunt smaller ones. Heck even bullying utahs off a stego kill would be nice. If the logic is that carnos aren't good stego hunters, then technically deino and utah aren't either.

fallen turret
# wraith thistle notice how the guar postures and threatens but never makes contact with the tige...

Yeah, a fundamental problem of expecting players to act like dinosaurs is just that we are no dinosaurs in front of the monitor. Real animals don't have the desire for revenge, they don't respawn solely to kill a dinosaur that killed them in their previous life. They don't think emotionally like we do.

Now, one could argue whether a "realistic" behaviour from players is desirable or not. With realistic I mean a typical animalistic behaviour. A behaviour that is driven merely by the chances of survival, making the "smartest" choices and avoiding unworthy risks to ensure one's survival. People think differently here, and that is ok. In my opinion, I do think that such behaviour is desirable to a certain extent. This is after all a dinosaur game set in a dinosaur environment with the key mechanics being eating, drinking, resting, growing, killing etc. Typical dinosaur things. It would feel natural if the behaviour and gameplay would resemble the dinosaur style as well.

We cant change ourselves' but we can change the incentives to do certain actions, like making the incentives worse for a carno to team up with a stego rather than hunting it.

hollow canyon
#

Idk why the two are even dependent on one another but I guess... #The Isle

keen plover
hollow canyon
#

The way it works right now is that nutrient to food ratio is either 1:1 or 3:1.

#

E.g. you eat 1% of food and you get 1% of nutrients

#

OR

#

you eat 1% of food and get 3% of nutrient

#

the first case occurs when you're a juvie carnivore with no diet, the second one is... well literally anything else

#

what I'm saying is that

#

not all nutrients are created equal

#

some of them should force you to eat more of whatever it is that gives them

#

others - much less

#

e.g. if there's a nutrient that you get from Dryo/Deer - it should skyrocket when you eat those animals as they are small

#

at the same time if you eat something like a Tenonto then the nutrient should rise much slower in comparison to Dryo/Deer

keen plover
#

Ahhh, but for the not so rare ones. You should be hunting those more consistently

hollow canyon
#

in general though - nutrients should rise faster

#

imo

#

I also think they should drop slightly slower when compared to food itself

#

compared to how it is right now

keen plover
#

Sounds interesting and a better idea than current. I would like that soon, but I also do wonder how update 6 will change carni diets and nutrients / food intake

hollow canyon
#

but that's just my take, the first part that I talked about is obvious

#

idk why that wasn't included aside from the fact that it actually requires you to work with numbers

#

and tbh in my opinion working with numbers is what the devs do not like to do

#

and fare poorly in any area of development that requires that

dusky surge
hollow canyon
dusky surge
#

would mean that eventually you can just kind of have massive nutrients

#

and it means you never have to worry about diet again, which defeats the point

hollow canyon
#

you already can

#

there are ways of doing that

keen plover
#

I don't like how the ratio are the same for all creatures. Why in hell is carnos 45 minutes hunger directly affecting its nutrients. Let the thing focus on food only sometimes.

hollow canyon
#

but arguably some of them aren't exactly intentional so I'm not going to be disclosing them but yea, I could get an animal to 300% right now

#

on all the nutrients

#

I've gone to 180%+ of all the nutrients yesterday and I wasn't trying particularly hard

keen plover
hollow canyon
#

or maybe it was 2 days ago, w/e

hollow canyon
keen plover
#

Pretty sure the ratio only allows you to have 2/3 at 300%

hollow canyon
#

let's just say there are ways around that

#

but in general - I don't see a problem with people getting all the nutrients up to 300%

#

it's not an issue in my opinion

#

if they went out of their way to gather that much nutrients - good for them

keen plover
#

True. I agree its fine. For most creatures, getting diets is fine now. Except carno. That thing is always on 2/3

hollow canyon
#

Yea, I've been on 2/3 most of the time as Carno since reaching full adult

#

I generally don't think the 3 nutrient system is fitting of carnivores though

keen plover
#

Sucks. That needs changing somehow. A diet of some sort. It isn't even a skill issue. Just down to luck

hollow canyon
#

Yea that's what carnivore diets are - a luck issue

#

in their entirety

keen plover
#

I feel like we've had this convo a billion times now since update 4 released TE_cryingsadman

hollow canyon
#

I haven't done a single thing particularly well as Carno, still got 2 nutrients for free just because I stumbled on the right abandoned bodies

#

the true expression of skill - let me munch on this pachy body that I just found lying in a ditch

keen plover
#

Exactly. 2/3, easy. Third one. Impossible.

dusky surge
#

im just hoping gore nutrients are done well

keen plover
#

What's well for you

dusky surge
#

if its just "eat organs from one corpse and gain all nutrients ggez" im gonna be disappointed

#

i still prefer the concept of variety

#

like having one nutrient be dedicated to fish for piscivores like austro, beipi, ptera or sucho (etc, etc)

#

or some animals should just not be nutritious to certain creatures. Like sea turtles to carnos.

keen plover
#

You know what, sounds better than the simplified eat an organ. (I did like it for its simplicity, but I won't lie that it does make it A WHOLE LOT EASIER)

dusky surge
#

Don't get me wrong, I like the idea of getting nutrients from organs to better play into the "fist come, first serve". Alongside rot, it'll probably weaken a lot of the need to kill for sport since old corpses will go bad and become inedible and you'll die of starvation unless you can get your next kill off. That shit is cool

keen plover
#

aPES_Think organs + rot could also limit megapacks without artificial value changes

dusky surge
#

that too. Organs are still a dope idea to have be the main source of nutrients

#

Although cerato just kind of... eating whatever is fine with me since, y'know, it's CERATO

#

that's its niche. It eats whatever the fuck it wants

#

like having nutrients be stuff like
Nutrient 1: Fresh Organs
Nutrient 2: Fatty meat (comes from fatty animals)
Nutrient 3: Bones

Is super varied already and relies on you hunting more than just one thing

keen plover
#

Same. I have no qualms for cerato to just be that thing that ignores whatever. Not really a great hunter either and you can probably avoid it.

dusky surge
#

You could have nutrients be stuff like fish, fatty meats, lean meats, high muscle density meat, bones, so on, so forth. Wide margins but still require you to hunt more than one thing

keen plover
#

Yeah, wider range of prey. That's my main issue with the current diet system. Somehow a juvi stego gives a carno 0 dietary buffs even though logically, that's good meat for it.

#

I dislike the idea of leaving a full adult stego kill because somehow it isn't on your diets

fallen turret
#

Yeah, the carno wins pretty much nothing from a stego

#

so instead they team up

keen plover
#

I want the ecosystem side of things where the larger carnivore bullies the smaller ones off a kill.

#

I want competition rather than "oh, that's not on my diets in the character menu screen. Guess I'll leave it"

dusky surge
#

i reckon carno should get nutrients from anything IF it's fresh and has organs

#

So a rotting stego corpse still ain't doing much

keen plover
#

Fair and would be a fine detail to carno. It wants "fresh meat"

dusky surge
#

and you ain't gonna have a great time HUNTING a stego

#

Cera and carno I see as polar opposites in many ways

#

Cera swims fast, is agile, enjoys rotting meat and stealing rather than active hunting, isn't too quick for it's size and is remarkably powerful for its size and capable of punching up

keen plover
dusky surge
#

Carno should eat the moment it kills imho

#

I would make it almost incapable of stomaching rot

keen plover
#

100%

#

I hope there's tiers to it

dusky surge
#

Yea, I also hope there's tiers to NV

#

Like dryo has good NV but not as good as troodon and stego has some of the worst NV, utah sits somewhere comfortably in the middle

keen plover
#

Same. I see why not. Carno, stego should have the worst NV in the current roster

dusky surge
#

I agree

keen plover
#

Deino and dryo being on the opposite end. Teno, utah and pachy being in the middle

dusky surge
#

Fully agreed

#

Nocturnal dryo would be SO cool

keen plover
#

ptera is ptera. Idk if it even cares lol

#

hypsi.... hmmm hypsi should also be in the middle, but slightly higher

dusky surge
#

You could make a perk called "iron stomach" too which allows you to go up one tier in rot you can stomach

#

i hope meat decays slowly

#

and goes through multiple tiers

#

rather than "oop haha meat bad now"

keen plover
keen plover
#

Like you could see the gradual change

dusky surge
keen plover
#

Yeah agreed. I just hope they don't just go with the trope of carnis having good night vision and herbis are the ones that are hunted at night.

dusky surge
#

that'll suck imho

#

some carnis should rest in the night

#

others should feel at home

#

make it more realistic. Not every animal is bred for the night

#

Many herbivores use the cover of darkness irl because carnivores are either asleep or much worse hunters in darkness, and I want that niche capitalised upon

keen plover
#

I do wonder what the reaction will be if carno gets bad NV with all the current 'nerfs' it has

#

I say I wonder, but I know what will happen

dusky surge
#

I reckon carno could get buffed to compensate honestly

#

But it doesn't deserve, nor need, good NV

#

Nothing about carno implies to me it'd be at all competent in the dark

keen plover
dusky surge
#

which is sad

#

i want a sort of nighttime ecosystem

keen plover
dusky surge
#

burrowing creatures especially seem like perfect animals to emerge in the night

keen plover
#

Or just generally smaller carnis out

dusky surge
#

agreed, and would stop dryo from becoming destined to become "galli but shit"

keen plover
#

Anyways, I hope these ideas are a thing. Lets hope the devs build both day and night life.

dusky surge
#

Absolutely

#

Troodon and dilo shouldn't be just hunting lost day creatures

#

They should be hunting animals that share their preferred hunting hours

keen plover
#

With a good night cycle, this game would be spectacular. Full moon? Most playables can just run around (depending on location, will probs be very hard to see if you're a plains creature that's in the forest like carno). Half moon, a reduction on playables that can see depending on the NV tier. Crescent and No moon? Only the really good night vision creatures roam.

#

Something like that

dusky surge
#

my only fear with poor NV is that carno mains will literally fucking die out during the darker nights due to their manic hunger

keen plover
#

Completely forgot about that...

dusky surge
#

and as much as people like to shit on carnos they still deserve to survive

keen plover
#

Yeah that would suck...

#

You'd probs need to up carno hunger time at least.

#

Especially when gore comes since they can't really sit on a body during the whole night?

#

Since they're probs have hunted it at day

dusky surge
#

it brings up the question, do you give all carnivores good NV, regardless of niche, and ruin the potential for a unique day night system, or risk killing off carnivores in the night? Some solutions could include reducing hunger rate in the night or adding a system that encourages players to rest through the night, but IDK

keen plover
#

Hmmm. How about carnivores or herbis sleeping? Like using the sleep animation but they don't log off. This would drastically reduce the amount of food they drain. Pretty they had an idea for this as well?

dusky surge
#

I REALLY like the idea of nighttime being good for some, okay for others and bad for another group

dusky surge
#

(even tho i think sleeping through night is really cool)

keen plover
#

Ah, why not turn off the growing aspect aPES_Think

#

I guess it would be unfair

#

Since you're losing growing time

dusky surge
#

Could be interesting. Slow hunger and growth at the same time while sleeping, but then some people won't sleep.

fallen turret
#

you could decrease the growing rate but at the same time that would be weird. Sleeping is when you should grow the most logically, isn't it?

dusky surge
#

I really LIKE the idea of troodons and dilos retreating to sleep through days and carnos/stegos sleep through nights, but the complexity comes from making it not shit

#

they wanted to avoid someone essentially hiding and sleeping in a bush to avoid hunger drain

#

you could have it that players are forced to "wake up" during their preferred hours and no longer get the free buffs from sleeping

#

so sleeping in day don't do much and won't slow down your hunger

keen plover
#

So smaller carnos still have the option to hunt at night well

keen plover
fallen turret
#

Yeah, and the reward for hunting the other small dinos that also have good NV would be good since a smaller carno needs less food to fill up their hunger

keen plover
#

Exactly. The smaller carnis have a chance to hunt at night better than their adult counterparts, but are still beat by dilo packs

#

or whatever

#

Different ecosystem at night

fallen turret
#

Smaller/younger dinosaurs need to eat more frequently, right?

keen plover
#

aPES_Think don't think so?

#

I know for legacy, but doesn't feel that way in evrima

fallen turret
#

Ah, well

#

If that was the case, you could make carnos hunger time longer. Then it would have better chances to survive the night when it can't hunt as efficiently.

keen plover
#

I still think it should be 1 hour. 45min feels too short. Lets hope they change it when it actually has competition

zealous citrus
#

with how it is currently carno would be starving at night TI_TenontoCry

dusky surge
#

(still think sleep should be more than just a log out)

#

animation and idea is too cool to leave it at that

keen plover
#

Agreed. It should have pros and cons. I still think all the ideas we just had on it could work together

zealous citrus
#

well when you sleep your snore so you cant really afk in a bush bc everyone would just hear you unless deaf so i think sleeping would be fine other than a logout thing

keen plover
#

I feel like finding a good sleeping spot is a must. Like a task you set out to do if you want to take advantage of the feature. Not like you can sleep in some weird place and expect to survive. A bush probs won't cut it. Or it could TE_Shrug

zealous citrus
#

unless your stego that just doesnt care TI_LUL

dusky surge
#

stego should have abysmal NV imho

keen plover
#

Stegos should fear night and that's where the proper herding aspect comes in for it. No more rolling around solo in the open at night when there's a pack of whatever around.

zealous citrus
#

well ig could be a threat for stego tho i dont even know if stego will be on its diet and how venom works personally i would just stay near a wall as steg

#

Dilo will be fun to meme on people at night tho

keen plover
#

All we've got so far is that hallucination might work on stegos? A dilo did attack one in its concept art

dusky surge
#

by the time dilo is out, so will gore, so "stego on its diet" probs wont be something to worry about

zealous citrus
#

o true

keen plover
#

Talking about dilo. I do wonder if they still want apex hunter dilo

zealous citrus
#

enough dilos would be able to kill any Dinos so i guess nothing really stopping you

#

except most of you dying

dusky surge
#

dilo still gonna get one-tapped by tons of animals

zealous citrus
#

if trample dmg was ever added that would also make it harder on dilo

hallow spire
#

@olive wraith your not supposed to brawl a Utah pack and the charge is supposed to be like that and is useful the teno tail slam isn’t op either

keen plover
#

Teno tail slam is light work. The kick is the scary part

olive wraith
#

You must be playing a different game lmao

hallow spire
olive wraith
#

Also, I'm not suggesting a Carno should brawl a utah pack, I'm suggesting that they don't have a good alternative.

#

O look, the Carno is charging, move slightly to the left -_-

hallow spire
obtuse ocean
olive wraith
#

So you say the charge can't be use in combat as its for ambushing, then say you shouldn't brawl. So you want utah to dominate the plains.

#

Used*

pure plank
#

it can be used for combat but it is meant for ambushing

olive wraith
#

Who do you actually hit with it lmao

#

They have to be drunk

obtuse ocean
#

Utahs brawling carnos and hunting em, only chance carno has is to use charge ability. Sounds balanced

pure plank
#

a carno is like a cheetah

urban briar
#

I saw a proper carno ambush at south last night dude came out of nowhere and killed 2 of our utahs with a charge. Gotta be smart.

pure plank
#

its not successful 80 percent of the time

#

but when it is its great

obtuse ocean
#

What is utah then ? lion ?

pure plank
#

idiot

olive wraith
#

Utahs aren't lions lmao

obtuse ocean
olive wraith
#

The Carno outweighs the utah by a ton or so

pure plank
obtuse ocean
#

So im carno playing as a rex

pure plank
#

id say utahs are more like spring bock or antelope

hollow canyon
pure plank
#

very agile and scary as fuck

hollow canyon
#

Carno ain't a cheetah

#

literally makes me chuckle whenever I hear someone compare it to one

obtuse ocean
#

yea il stay on utahs, since playing carno is just a huge downgrade atm

hollow canyon
#

this thing is more robust than an Allosaurus

pure plank
#

fine it wasnt a good analogy my point is its meant for ambushing

olive wraith
#

Carno is a cross breed between a cheetah and polar bear.

#

It should dominate the plains but it's much easier for it to fight in the forests.

pure plank
hallow spire
#

They mostly just say that bc it’s fast I think

hollow canyon
pure plank
#

ill give you 5 cents if you can provide actual proof that people have

pure plank
#

and they cant run fast for long

nocturne fiber
hollow canyon
#

Idc for 5 cents but it's literally the most common comparison people make for Carno

#

the only ones that even come close is either cerato and hyena or cerato and honey badger

keen plover
#

literally search carno cheetah in the search results. 119 results

pure plank
#

lol

olive wraith
#

Why could that be? (It might have something to do with their speed).

pure plank
#

and the fact that cheetahs are ambush predators

hollow canyon
#

the devs have compared it to a cross between a cheetah and a bull

pure plank
#

arent very successful

#

and also cant run fast for long

olive wraith
#

Cheetahs are very successful

hollow canyon
#

no, it's because of the speed

olive wraith
#

Are you drunk

pure plank
hollow canyon
#

Carno has low stamina now, that wasn't always the case

nocturne fiber
hollow canyon
#

when it came out it could run for minutes on end

#

everything ran much longer back then

nocturne fiber
#

Compared to other hunters yes

pure plank
hallow spire
#

Cheetahs aren’t successful lol