balance-feedback-discussion

[hollow canyon]

12t Trike would've been much, much, much larger than that

It's also a bit of an exaggeration - it's more so 11.3t and the specimen is... again - partial and might belong to some other animal and not Triceratops itself

[hasty coyote]

The juvies have better stam than adults for 2 main reasons:
1: that’s how all juvies work, they have more stam but are weaker, some are faster too
2: it’s the only way for the juvies to survive the adults, especially since carno is cannibal.

Also, adult carno shouldn’t have more stam since running it out of stam is the best or only way many things can escape

[hollow canyon]

there are some potential 6-8t Trikes but it's difficult to say whether they were actually that large

other than that - they are all kind of midgets

[stark spear]

and his center of gravity is at his head due to his rear legs being directly under him and his front legs being splayed like a lizards making him built for a full front on attack. The ball and socket joint joining his neck to his skull also meant he was able to move his head in a close to 360 degree rotation vertically speaking (not horizontally like an owl)

his horns are also bone though, far stronger than ivory or keratin. they could withstand up to 17tons of force which is not difficult for scientists to estimate given they can check the bone density and make a decently accurate estimation

if thats not an animal designed to fend off a rex I dont know what is

[hollow canyon]

anky

[stark spear]

well yes

definitely, its a tank on legs

[hollow canyon]

or Alamosaurus and what not, some of the larger sauropods would likely withstand a T.rex without much trouble

[stark spear]

its skull is so thick a female adult rex cant even crush it in its jaws

[hollow canyon]

just fyi that theory about female T.rexes being larger than males is kind of oudated

[stark spear]

Rex most likely never even attempted with large sauropods

Its still in debate

[hollow canyon]

we don't really know the sex of most specimens, I think the only one we know is some subadult female

[stark spear]

Im not sure I just quote it until its known i guess

Yes its pretty much impossible to figure out from what ive gathered

other than finding them incubating (which is still a guess that it would be the female based on current reptile behaviour)

[hollow canyon]

I've heard some theory that the robust morph are actually the male rexes but to be perfectly honest - it's pure speculation without any evidence

[stark spear]

Yeah for all we know those specimens are female 🤷‍♂️

[hollow canyon]

we also have far more gracile morph individuals than robust morph so tbh if those are two different sexes then one of them was seemingly much more prevalent than the other which just seems wrong

[stark spear]

Not necessarily, females are usually the more common of any species to reduce the clash of males

it doesnt negate it but reduces it to increase the chances of further population of a species

At least anky should definetly counter a rex

armour with the same structure as kevlar armour on its back but made from bone and even its eyelids were bone plated XD

and club built to hit at a tremendous bone shattering force

but slow as hell XD, doubt that thing could even sprint for the sake of the word XD

[hollow canyon]

the main defense of an Ankylosaurus was more so that it was just very hard to bite due to the shape of its body, if a theropod was to place a good bite on it, it would likely still have a bad time

[grave veldt]

Anky in game should actually be countered by smaller dinosaurs rather then larger ones which the devs have also stated or talked about at least

[stark spear]

definitely

[azure crescent]

even more dangerous than sauropods?

[topaz elm]

probably

[grave veldt]

that white rhino line seems awfully familiar with clash of the dinosaurs series

[topaz elm]

sauropod attacks you can for the most part avoid if you were quick enough, triceratops would force any attacker to get close to get to its weak spot and if they mess up they would be gored, and pretty much if you got hit in the leg, the stomach, the chest, or the neck you were dead, any creature would have to wait for the wounds to heal before they hunt again or they would be dead on the spot

[frail bobcat]

@verbal zenith utah is a bleeder

[somber sphinx]

Accurate utah should focus on dmg while our “Utah” should focus on bleed

[frail bobcat]

The raptor agreed with this suggestion, lol

[azure crescent]

sure they're easier to avoid but they're more dangerous lmao

[topaz elm]

they are more dangerous in a single hit but in a fight sauropods have to get lucky to land a hit when they enemy makes a mistake, trike can get in there and brawl it out being active

[azure crescent]

being more dangerous in a single hit = being more dangerous

if a player needs to actively avoid a single attack during the whole fight then said attack is dangerous

[topaz elm]

alright then

[sonic grail]

Yeah, a single hit being death is the most dangerous. The weaker one has to keep landing hit after hit and dodging, the other only has to get lucky once

[dusky surge]

@celest copper

apex
the top or highest part of something, especially one forming a point.

you can have a top herbivore lmao

its not exclusive to carnivores, its just more frequently used in carnivores

(also in the Isle, apex is more of a tier and doesn't really apply to the irl definition)

an apex carnivore irl is generally uncontested in their ecosystem, but in this case, apexes are contested by other apexes

[livid spindle]

It should be said that the problem is that the gap between the biggest carnivore on land and stego is too big, and deino is slower than stego. Only stego who wants to die will be killed by deino, so stego often finds fault with deino and can retreat calmly. Even injured stego can hardly be killed by other creatures, otherwise stego shouldn't risk injury to attack deino, and stego will do so only because it is not afraid of anyone.

[true ginkgo]

@celest copper that’s why I prefer the term ‘large tier’ instead of apex

As it applies to all creatures of that scale

[dusky surge]

large tier is already a thing

its below apex

[azure hinge]

I think in the context of animals and in this game, you usually say apex predator not just apex

People just drop the word predator word cause they like to keep things short

[dusky surge]

Apex is still considered a tier in the Isle

And a trike is as much an apex as a rex, for example

[knotty geyser]

People call them apexes because of progression mode back in the day.

[dusky surge]

It's also the official term

[frail bobcat]

^

[knotty geyser]

I don’t think they’ve referred to anything on evrima as an apex tho. I think it’s an old term still used by the community

[dusky surge]

both deino and stegos are apex tier

[knotty geyser]

Have the devs called it that?

[frail bobcat]

Yes

[knotty geyser]

Got a quote by chance?

[dusky surge]

not on me

[knotty geyser]

Last I heard devs don’t use that term anymore

[azure hinge]

Idk why you would call either of those animals an apex

[knotty geyser]

At least that’s how it was explained to me by a few people that are active here

[dusky surge]

im pretty sure they do but whatever

[celest copper]

There still is no term such as "apex herbivore"

Because they are not a the highest point of the food chain

[dusky surge]

Can't say just yet, but you'd also need to be more specific. Since we have apex-esque animals in-game already like Stegosaurus & Deinosuchus.

• Punchpacket

So an apex herbi is a term

Deinocherius is also referred to as an "apex omnivore"

[azure hinge]

Well you would just say predator

Not omnivore

[obtuse ocean]

well he does say esque apex, witch means it resemables an apex as far i understand that

[frail bobcat]

They just use it as a terme for a tier of dinos

[golden coral]

Does it matter that much what term is used, we all know what is meant? "Apex" here refers to the biggest, most powerful "tier", be it herbi or carni

[dusky surge]

The devs referred to cherius as an apex, despite it not being a predator

[frail bobcat]

For carnivores, omnivores and herbivores alike

[dusky surge]

It's a tier, they aren't using the irl description

[frail bobcat]

The isle isnt about realism

[dusky surge]

^

[obtuse ocean]

but devs also said that the apexes wont be fair fights, so one apex can get destroyed by another one : P

[azure hinge]

I mean yeah but you said apex omnivore and the deino doesn't eat plants in game

[dusky surge]

Thus they aren't apexes

[frail bobcat]

And its easier to give the apexes one tier except for saying: "We have the apexes and then we have the strongest herbivores"

[dusky surge]

If an apex is destroyed by another apex, by the irl definition, it isn't an apex

[obtuse ocean]

im talking rex giga spino etc

[dusky surge]

I know

[obtuse ocean]

i think they are apexes?

[dusky surge]

An apex predator, irl, is a heavily uncontested predator within its small ecosystem

By having multiple apexes that can destroy one another, you no longer have any semblance of the realistic term of "apex"

[azure hinge]

I don't think anyone here is arguing that apex isn't used as a bracket

[dusky surge]

(except afro)

[obtuse ocean]

i know the devs refer to rex giga spino as apexes

[frail bobcat]

The rex will be the strongest of the apexes but the slowest. The giga will be faster and weaker. And spino just does not care if there is other apexes in his area because it eats different food and hunt differently

[dusky surge]

Why would rex be the slowest when spino exists

[frail bobcat]

True

Spino has its water speed

[azure hinge]

I think he was just saying what an apex is and didn't realize it could be used as a bracket

[obtuse ocean]

What i hope is that they all have unique playstyle , they feel alot diffrent from eachothers. They sorta did that wil rex giga etc in legacy

[azure hinge]

But yeah I don't think deino or stegos should be apex tier

[dusky surge]

If a stego can't outrun a rex/giga, it must be able to outfight a rex/giga, thus it is apex-tier since it can fight such an animal

[azure hinge]

Idk why you say that

[dusky surge]

Everything in legacy felt like it played the exact same way with mild stat differences imho

[frail bobcat]

The deino is its own kind of apex that goes for smaller dinos, is to strong to get food stolen by mid tiers. Its just a very specialiced apex

[dusky surge]

Unless we're having giga be ridiculously slow/stego ridiculously fast

Also deino is an apex, it's the size required

[frail bobcat]

Stego is a apex

[azure hinge]

So apex is a size thing? Why not just large tier it

[frail bobcat]

Come on, this thing does 1200 damage. If that isnt an apex, how strong will be apexes then

[obtuse ocean]

deino is not an apex lol, that thing gonna get slapped by every mid tier on land. In water it gonna be slapped by a spino with ease

[azure hinge]

I mean it shouldn't do that much damage

[dusky surge]

If a deino gets slapped by a spino with ease on land and in water, that is an inherent failure in balance

i doubt it will happen

[frail bobcat]

I think a animal with meter long thagomizers should do that much damage

[frail bobcat]

^

[azure hinge]

So a narwhal should kill every other animal in the water?

[obtuse ocean]

not if it can get away from the spino with ease, as you said. And it will. The devs even confirmed it will be slapped by a spino with ease

[dusky surge]

What the fuck

[frail bobcat]

Da Faque

[dusky surge]

My brother in Christ the fuck does a narwhal gotta do with this

[knotty geyser]

I believe the devs have said that deino would have a hard time with spino in the water

[azure hinge]

Sharp thing = does a lot of damage?

[knotty geyser]

Also narwhals don’t use their horn for attacking. So no.

[azure hinge]

Aka your thagomizer to my narwhal spear

That's the point

[obtuse ocean]

even if the deino got an ambush on the spino in water, spino would have the advantage they said

[dusky surge]

I still absolutely abhor the idea of a spino fucking up a deinosuchus in the water. It's completely ridiculous, on land I could understand, but the idea of a spino somehow managing to take down an animal the best designed for aquatic locomotion in its natural habitat is silly

[azure hinge]

That's the point I was making

[knotty geyser]

Spino is also designed for aquatic locomotion and has giant ass claws to grab

[dusky surge]

Spino literally doesn't even swim

[obtuse ocean]

yea but thats what you think about it , but the devs have confirmed this. What you or i think is right or wrong, dont mean anything

[dusky surge]

(according to concept art, that is)

[knotty geyser]

It does swim lol. How tf they gonna make spino not swim lol

[azure hinge]

Yeah what

[obtuse ocean]

it will swim, but deino will for sure be faster

[knotty geyser]

Spinos are aquatic

[dusky surge]

did you not hear? it walks on the bottom of the water, it don't swim

im as confused as you are

[knotty geyser]

No I’ve never heard that

[obtuse ocean]

me neither, but if they said so. Then it prob will

[knotty geyser]

Pretty silly when spino has a paddle for a tail

[dusky surge]

Being an underwater walker, it won't swim like its more buoyant water-dwellers, but you’d be a fool to think it still can’t surprise you.

From devlog 25

Can't swim

[obtuse ocean]

ahh nice

not sure how that gonna work tho lol

[azure hinge]

Idk maybe they maybe they mean like a hippo just running quicker by swimming on the bottom

Could work I guess

[golden coral]

But.. stegos do use their thagomizers to fight, while narwhals do not use their horns to fight.. it's not comparable?

[knotty geyser]

I kinda hate this

[azure hinge]

Yeah it's weird but doubt I will play a spino much so

[obtuse ocean]

i hope cherius is gonna be fun to

[dusky surge]

If spino is seriously going to end up constantly clapping deino whenever they fight, I'm 100% okay with it. Might as well give it a ridiculous nerf in the engagement if you're going to give it a ridiculous advantage

[obtuse ocean]

I doubt spino gonna catch any deino, unless its not paying any attention. And i doubt spino gonna be grabbing stuff like deino do from in water

[true ginkgo]

Devs: Add literally any map feature.

Players: Delete it as that location actually has players wanting to go there!

Literally every update, any map feature which is added has people saying it needs to be removed because it's a hotspot.

[hasty geode]

Even if they remove the cuddle rock, I bet people will find a new hotspot and everyone will just be there

[hasty coyote]

The issue is that the recent map features have given too much of an advantage. Dam has diet, safe water, and a safe haven from carnos. same with NW. Oasis had literally every diet there and safe water. Then most people group up at these 1-2 locations because it gives such an advantage.

Personally, I want them to make like 4+ hotspots at once that help certain species more, potentially acting as exclusive nesting grounds too. The places would have certain benefits, but also drawbacks and you would be forced to leave them occasionally.

[hasty geode]

I never go to NW river because for some reason, even if there are literally no bodies or anyone, my FPS starts to go down

[hasty coyote]

This is my ideal hotspot/nesting ground design: https://discordapp.com/channels/401464048610312193/401481371249541120/990461578719686696

[frail bobcat]

It is very cool

[hasty geode]

I like that idea

[hasty coyote]

ty, I just hope its taken into consideration. They also talked about a migration mechanic, so idk how that will play out. Maybe you're forced to move between different hotspots as food runs out?

[hasty geode]

I love migrating, even atm I go back and forth to get all of my diets to over 100%

[urban birch]

I don’t even think the rock needs to be removed but the one way on and off is the issue. All the tiny shit piles up and a stego blocks them all from harm. Just add a few places to go up and down

[hollow canyon]

The latest suggestion by Wave is a really good one - reduce juvenile stam severely and give them a tonne of stamina regeneration. It is indeed really absurd how long they can run for.

[true ginkgo]

Yep this. People will always always find a hotspot.

You can either alleviate this by adding more hotspots, or by making the entire map devoid of anything at all.

So the map is either all equally interesting and fun. Or all equally boring.

[hasty coyote]

You can parkour up the opposite side as things that can jump, but it takes a while and you’re going to be out of stam by the time you reach the top

[true ginkgo]

If every hotspot which has ever been on this map so far was all in at once, then players would be way more spread among them.

[hasty coyote]

That’s why I made my suggestion to make like 4+ at once

[true ginkgo]

Changing that rock to be unclimbable by things which can't jump would help though. Or multiple ways on so a stego can't guard them all

[hasty coyote]

The main change I really want is the rock formations left in the corners of the map to be moved and made into hotspots. They look very cool and fun to play around.

[dreamy fiber]

The rock should just be removed and the devs should be more careful about where they place really good strategic and defensive locations.

Putting it near food and water means the rock will always be important, but on the flip side there will always be spots like this to gi to it just depends where you draw the line.

That said people talk about hitsoots like they're bad to have but they're not. As long as the map has multiple engaging hotpots it is okay. Knowing the hotpots and learning where they are means players can find the interaction they need to be entertained. Imagine a map with no hotpots, and no guarubteed of people, so you spend 3 hours running around to run into no one lol. Some places are just better than others. And that's a reality irl and in game. They can be an advantage and a disadvantage, it just depends how its perceived and what the effect on the game had been.

[dusky surge]

@slender kettle utah has an insanely good missed pounce recovery time, higher damage and an actually functional pounce in the stress test. Carno, however, bleeds out faster, making it way more vulnerable to utah. I'm very doubtful carno will be the one picked in this situation

utah seems VERY good

[tall bronze]

What if Utah becomes the new Carno in the sense it's just e v e r y w h e r e

Then again it can't really cannibalize

Then again cannibalizing does barely anything negative currently.....

[hasty coyote]

I have already called it, and I'll say it again:

Utah is going to be carno2.0: now with skill

[tall bronze]

[dusky surge]

i disagree with giving utah more buffs

the whole fast stam drain is really the main weakness the animal has atm

[hasty coyote]

utah's main counterplay atm is that any mistakes it makes can be punished with death. however, if they dont make mistakes, than they are near unstoppable

[tall bronze]

Reminds me of snipers in games being so unfun and overwhelming to play against, but the excuse being "well it takes a lot of skill so meeting a player that good is rare"

What do you do when you DO meet a player like that though? >:/

[hasty coyote]

hey, at least those players die in here too because of bugs

[tall bronze]

[dusky surge]

dont get me wrong, i've never been more hyped to play utah, my fave animal in the game

Between U4 and now, it just hasn't really been any good

But having my fave animal be literally everywhere and treating it like the new carno is not what I want

[tall bronze]

[hasty coyote]

I hope it isnt carno2.0, but we will see how it ends up. I'm still guaranteeing a lot of the bad players are sticking with carno, and then crying in balance feedback when they can't just W+M1 to win every fight.

[silk harness]

Even if utah is overtuned, I'd much rather replace carno's current place in the meta with utahs. Because it doesn't matter how much they buff it, it's still super fragile and requires numbers and coordination to take down large animals/herds

Meanwhile you only need like 3 carnos to be a complete menace to the server

[tall bronze]

Plus Utahs cannot cannibalize. So at least if they try they're not getting any nutrients from it.

Carnos though just live off of fallen members

[dusky surge]

i do somewhat hope carno remains a menace and something for utahs to remain cautious of

[tall bronze]

"Ugh they ruined Carno, #RevertCarnoToU4"

[silk harness]

If you've played with packs a lot then I'm sure you know the majority of utah players aren't that much better than carno mains. The buffs will help them survive a bit better, but they're not going to be contributing that much to a Teno hunt for example.

Carnos will still body bad utahs

[hasty coyote]

*sees literally no change other than having more bleed

[tall bronze]

[dusky surge]

yea, i do want carno to capitalise on that. I'm glad they at least didn't go the route of overnerfing carno

Carno only got one (confirmed) nerf which is fine imho

[hasty coyote]

same, id rather every dino feel good to play, rather than they all feel equally terrible

[tall bronze]

I wanna know how tracking got nerfed. I only know that it did, but not how exactly

[hasty coyote]

I can't tell exactly what they did, but it looks much better than it does currently

[tall bronze]

👃

[keen plover]

Honestly, carno felt more satisfying after a hunt I did yesterday. I ambushed a family of 3 tenos and killed the young - avoiding the brawl since bleed was a big risk. I like how you can't brawl teno anymore

[tall bronze]

Teno always seemed odd to go after as Carno. Not that I think it shouldn't, but more so just "yeah but why? Just get something smaller."

Like a Utah choosing a Stego over a lone Dryo

[keen plover]

Carnos only issue imo is that since universal knockdown timers are lower, you deal less damage per ambush

[tall bronze]

I mean they'd get back up by the time you stop Tokyo Drifting, so that sounds like charge does basically nothing now 😛

[keen plover]

I want charge to be buffed in damage to compensate

[keen plover]

ye

[tall bronze]

Fracture severties 🙂

[keen plover]

or that

[tall bronze]

It can charge at any time now, right?

Instead of only at max speed

[keen plover]

something where charge actually means something in the teno matchup since I now deal one less headshot per charge

[keen plover]

5 steps needed, or pretty much full speed

[tall bronze]

Hmm....

Could make it to where you can charge at any time and the faster you're moving, the more fracture you'll deal once those come >:3

[hasty coyote]

I dont think carno should deal fracture with rams, thats just overkill.

more damage om compensation for knockdown nerfs is more understandable imo.

[keen plover]

400n charge?

What's the value right now?

[hasty coyote]

thats a bit much.
it does about 225 or 250 right now i think? 300-350 max would be better

[dusky surge]

i think its 300-350 because im pretty sure it one-taps utahs on headshot

[hasty coyote]

well then

[keen plover]

[hasty coyote]

probaby not damage buff, maybe turning buff? or stam buff?

[keen plover]

turning buff could honestly be worse than a straight damage buff

it already turns pretty decent

stam though

[hasty coyote]

yeah, maybe less stam drain? I'm really not sure

I'd say lets get this patch, then see what the specific issues with ram are, or if there are any.

Because I currently have no experience with these MASSIVE balance changes

[keen plover]

Same

My main complaints are mainly due to the servers being dead - so you constantly starve as a carno

I'm very worried about the amount of utahs there will be though. I don't know how good solo carno will be

although the tree strat works again, so you could always knock utahs off

[hasty coyote]

I'm worried about the pachy v utah matchup, it seems a bit too even rather than pachy sided since it cant run. However, that stam buff could make them much more even, so I will need to see.

[keen plover]

Also we grow these creatures, so a lot of the balance testing is through normal survival experience - which makes it tough since you sometimes don't want to throw away hours of growth to test something like combat -when the main goal was to test for bugs, nesting and skins

[tall bronze]

If only we had like....some mode where you could freely spawn in as an adult to test these things without wasting hours of growing.....hmmm

[keen plover]

Still pachy sided, same idea as before. Avoid the pounce, alt attack and fracture them

[keen plover]

I wish

Sure pachys can't completely blow away utahs anymore

which sucks since they're the ones attacking

[hasty coyote]

yeah but now its much harder to actually kill the utahs, so packs are much better at killing pachies.

[keen plover]

Oh definitely. Pachys are also 8 bites for utahs. 2 utahs can reliably kill a pachy now

[hasty coyote]

plus, the missed pounce recovery seems to be getting a buff, and stuns an general are being nerfed

[hasty coyote]

a double pounce is already a 1-shot

[keen plover]

Yeah

[dusky surge]

it takes a good utah to kill a pachy. Pachies literally have the easiest combos in the game v utah. Alt-bite into headbutt or vice versa to do a chunk of damage and fracture

[keen plover]

Utah made up lost ground in the matchup. Universal knockdowns are shorter, bite buff, pachy charge damage nerf.

[tall bronze]

Just have to.....

....

Use your head

[hasty coyote]

[dusky surge]

a poor utah will still get utterly clapped, mind you. Alt-bite can cancel pounces and ram still fucks a utah up in many, many ways

all types of fracture are brutal to a utah

[keen plover]

Yeah very true.

Again, I'm speaking too soon. I'd love to test this out in test server + an actual full survival server lol

[grave veldt]

U mean sandbox

[dusky surge]

im so excited to get these utah changes

[grave veldt]

Oh wait alt bite cancels pounces? That makes a lot more sense now

[hasty coyote]

I'm excited for the pachy changes. I'm sad I won't be able to kill as often, but the breaks are all I care about anyway

[dusky surge]

more breaks = more bullying

idk, killing shit as pachy never felt as right as breaking every bone in their body and running away giggling like mischievous goblins

[hasty coyote]

exactly. More bonks and easier bonks

[hasty coyote]

same lmao

[keen plover]

The changes were specifically for the carno matchup iirc. They didn't want it to just shit on carnos as long as they were in pairs. They want it to run and fracture - which is fair

[hasty coyote]

exactly, makes pachy better at break and run, but worse at beating to death with a lead pipe.

[keen plover]

Yeah, previously once you had that leg frac, 2 pachys could kill a carno pretty easily in terms of hits

Also, I won't be surprised if half the server is initially utahs once this update launches

[dusky surge]

i kinda want to build my cool hypsi nest

[grave veldt]

So does pachy deal more fracture dmg or is it the same

[keen plover]

Oh yeah, ptera mirror matchup is even worse

[dusky surge]

YES

FUNNY BIRD

[keen plover]

20n bird

[dusky surge]

WHY\

THAT'S REALLY FUCKING FUNNY BUT WHY

[keen plover]

idk

dryo with 20n

[keen plover]

Don't think so? I can't really state the exact changelogs iirc, only experience lol

[dusky surge]

by all accounts, if quetz is designed similarly to ptera, it'll have one of the most insanely broken damages in the game lmao

ptera's bite to weight ratio is nutty

[keen plover]

Yeah crazy good. Also very cool with the changed weight scaling system so you're one shot for like 99% of your growth LOL

I wouldn't mind the weight scaling if the sub adult/young adult version of some creatures were faster than their full grown counterparts. Teno, utah and dryo are all slow and tiny for the vast majority of growth.

[grave veldt]

Can’t wait to afk grow even more

[hasty coyote]

I have heard it got more fracture damage, but that doesn't really make a difference unless its juvie v juvie combat

[dusky surge]

also if pachy does less damage

doesnt this mean that pachy herds vs carno will simply be slower and more agonising

which sounds hilarious

[keen plover]

https://youtu.be/kAGxfImrQGk Only matchup vid I've seen so far. Also gave a bit of info at the end on the amount of hits

Ignore the skill shown, purely how long it took lol

[dusky surge]

new turn is VERY good for pachy and too many people sleeping on it

pachy can combo a carno into nothingness

[hasty coyote]

oh I am LOVING it. the 180 turn is BACK.

[dusky surge]

damage is a who cares since the turn means it can go right back around for another strike

[keen plover]

Yeah, fights are longer - but you now don't have to worry about being tail rode and can actually fracture the carno

Also tracking is harder

[hasty coyote]

Break and run is viable for solo pachy

LETS GOOOOO

[keen plover]

Pachy is more viable vs carno, but has a significantly lower chance of killing it

[dusky surge]

which is amazing for the matchup

[keen plover]

yep

[hasty coyote]

exactly as it should be

[dusky surge]

we'll likely see more utahs becoming carno slayers in U5

(hopefully, we'll be lucky to come across a carno post-pachy fight and just abuse it)

[keen plover]

From a survival perspective, yes. For those who want it to run around killing things - RIP. I like both, but being able to survive better is more logical for the creature so I'd take that.

I won't deny it was fun killing carnos in pairs of pachys

[keen plover]

Post teno as well

[dusky surge]

post teno?

[keen plover]

after fighting a teno

[hasty coyote]

bleed from kick and alts

[keen plover]

Yeah, already started the work for us

If you see like 2 kicks on a carno, you know 1-2 pounces would be enough to put it in a world of pain

Maybe even bleed out

[hasty coyote]

utahs stalking herds to hunt unsuspecting carnos

[keen plover]

So I'd be careful fighting around utahs

[dusky surge]

i really want to play a pack of camouflage skin forest utahs

and just descend upon anything that comes in/near my mighty forest

idk it seems really funny to me conceptually

[keen plover]

Sounds interesting and goofy

[hasty coyote]

I'm just claiming a rock and crippling anyone who dares come near me

[keen plover]

I did this, but I was a carno stalking a herd of stegos who utahs were hunting. Very fun to do.

Something nice about waiting around for an opportunity to strike

[dusky surge]

honestly, very much hoping ya boy cera ends up being exactly like that

the idea of getting a hard-earned kill only for cera to emerge and say "haha look at this kill i earned" is amazing to me

like no matter if the utahs kill a teno or the tenos stomp the utah, the cera emerges and does its cera thing and leaves like the goblin it is

[keen plover]

Agreed. Similar to current deinos. As the deino, it's nice. As the carno or utah? You despise the fucker

[hasty coyote]

I can just imagine ceras chilling not too far from herds, waiting for something to attack, and then stealing all the spoils for themselves

[keen plover]

Very cool thing to do

Also very rewarding when they never spot you and you manage to get the jump on one to secure more food

[dusky surge]

if they REALLY want to capture the honey badger feel with cera, it doesn't need to be a god-like beast that can tank a carno, nor does it need to be a killing machine that can kill anything near it. What cera needs is to be a complete and utter nuisance 100% never worth the trouble that goes into fighting it

[keen plover]

Yep. I don't see how people don't want that for cera. I've seen a lot of talk of just making cera large and have a stronger bite than carno. Like, that's just the boring legacy mindset.

[dusky surge]

giving cera a stam-draining grapple seems perfect for this. Just a complete and utter nuisance that leaves you standing there dumbfounded without any stam

[keen plover]

Also a big risk to be left with no stamina as a carno. So you generally avoid cerato

A big risk as anything, but carno just can't do much without running lol

[dusky surge]

exactly

you just leave it alone and it can't catch you

and its too chicken-shit to risk getting charged so it'll not do anything

[keen plover]

Also if other carnivores are around, you risk dying to them

or herbis lol

Imagine if a teno saw a carno getting stam grabbed? RIP to the carno

[dusky surge]

cera should be just something that exudes the real feeling of a bully scavenger. It pretends to be tough but in reality it's a little freak that just annoys the shit out of you and steals your stuff

[keen plover]

Yeah. I would love to see it pester some larger carnis in groups lol. Maybe up to allo or alberto

[hasty coyote]

it still needs to be able to fight a carno, since it is slower. It shouldn't be cera wins every time, but still not carno can just bully them.

[dusky surge]

i'd see the fight going more like "you leave or i'm going to drain your stam and run circles around you haha"

[keen plover]

I wouldn't even bother as the carno unless I got the ambush

No point brawling something with such an annoying ability

[dusky surge]

also for good measure i'd give cera bleed resist

it just feels right

[keen plover]

Yeah

I hope we don't fall into the boring stronger bite + larger cera

At that point, add allo lol

[dusky surge]

also my fave idea for cera is it using its grapple bite on a utah, and instead of "grappling" it, it picks it up in its mouth and proceeds to shake it like a fucking dog toy

[keen plover]

Would be interesting visually

[minor condor]

@short spire I personally agree with you, not sure why you'd be salty for wanting to eat, I think herbs should get sickened from camping stinky dead bodies, so it's a effect from being a jerk ig lol

[hasty coyote]

The issue with a mechanic like that is that it can affect other situations too, carnivores do not have to abide by the "body down" rule, and this issue will likely be fixed with future mechanics.

Other situations include:
didn't see the body in the bush? guess you're sick now.
baby utah attacked your nest so you killed it? guess you have eunomia
carnivores dragged a body over to the rock you're hiding on? guess you got worms

Carnivores also over hunt a lot, so forcing a group to move because a member died could end up helping carnivores in a hunt. say some utahs are attacking a pachy family. utahs manage to get some bleed on most of the pachies and killed one of the babies. Now the pachies are forced to move and worsen their bleed while utahs are still attacking them.

Lastly, I believe mechanics like the "migration" mechanic the devs were talking about and the elder/perks system would encourage herbivores to leave the body more often. The migration mechanic likely forces the herbivores to move to new areas in search of food, so standing around a body would make their diet worsen or run very low on food. The elder/perk system would also encourage players to keep themselves alive rather than fighting whatever they can, so less people would body camp just to body camp.

[zealous citrus]

I mean you can just leave the area and wait in a bush for whatever herbi to just get bored and leave the body

But if you just hunted a herd and they have the numbers and hp while you dont they don’t really have to let you eat

[hasty coyote]

Personally, unless you think you can pick a member of the herd off and force the rest to leave or kill them all, do not mess with a herd.

[dry badger]

@oak heath Pins in #evrima-na and other server chats

[oak heath]

Ah thanks 🙏

[thin mantle]

@void depot So… a few things.
1: Utah is a small nimble bleed oriented pack hunter, it’s frailty is a drawback of how enormous it’s prey pool is, it’s entire hunting strategy relies on dodging/completely avoiding damage.
2: Tenos kick can almost ONLY be used on stationary targets, it doesn’t have the range for catching assailants.
3: If you’re stationary enough to get hit by a kick in the first place, you fucked up, and if you lack the pack members to act as a decent distraction by capitalizing on your attempted execution if you’ve been tail slammed, then again, that’s on you and your pack.
4: Much easier targets than adult teno’s exist, pachy’s, smaller teno’s, and smaller carnos are prime targets.

And let’s be honest, it’s a miracle that Utah can take a single kick without catastrophic skeletal or organ damage, allowing them to tank not just 2, but 3 body or headshots, would be insane.

[hexed sorrel]

@tranquil pawn that would be extremely frustrating if you are fighting something else and not just killing the hypsi

[ocean sentinel]

This might be a hot take, I'm not sure what opinions are popular here, but I think a deino should be able to drag a stego of equal growth. Stegos obliterate Carnos and Utahs, which makes them safe for that 95% of time they aren't close to or in a river, so I think it's reasonable for the largest predator in Evrima at the moment to be a threat to them for that short time they're in lunging distance.

[dusky surge]

it shouldn't, for the simple fact that this makes deino FAR too unstoppable and stego needlessly weak

Deino is entirely uncontested in its own ecosystem outside of its own species

Stego is the only damn thing that can keep its species down

[ocean sentinel]

There also isn't really any other player species in Deino's ecosystem for most of the time. The stego would only be vulnerable for a short window of time. And if allowing Deino's to drag equal growth stegos is too much, at least reduce their health down a bit so the carnivores stand a chance.

[dusky surge]

Having deinos kill stegos consistently makes them basically entirely unstoppable and makes stego far less worthwhile as a choice. Having utahs, deinos, carnos, stegos, dryos, tenos, pachys and pteras all be easy prey for deino, and it's ONLY threat being itself is ridiculous and creates a clear problem in the design.

With stego, it is large, slow and obvious, and the player can easily evade it. Deinos strike quickly, remain hidden before it's too late and have more health/bleed resist than any other animal in the game. Having it be not only one of the best animals in the game stat-wise, but giving it the ability to counter the ENTIRE roster is ludicrous

You already can easily kill 7 of the 9 animals as a deino, stego is the one thing that deino cannot rely on easily dispatching

[ocean sentinel]

Fair enough, but something needs to be able to kill stegos somewhat reliably.

I just thought deino because it's largest carnivore in Evrima currently and would realistically would have the best chance, but if that's a bad idea for gameplay reasons, then that is understandable. However, that being said, at least one of the carnivores needs to be able to hunt stego somewhat effectively, whether it be deino, utah, or carno.

[dusky surge]

utah is getting a sweet buff next patch, so we'll see how it performs with a functional pounce and some buffs

[ocean sentinel]

I heard, though I'm not sure if that will make enough of a difference against stegos. It is the most blatantly overpowered playable animal in Evrima to a point where it almost feels above the ecosystem, and while I can understand an argument for that being Deino, it is at least restricted to hunting in the water where most players spend very little time. We'll just have to wait and see.

[slim dragon]

Stego is restricted to not hunting at all since it is slower than Deino AND it needs to stop in order to attack, so you can just walk away as anything.

[hasty coyote]

The issue with deino is that everything is basically FORCED to go near it, since we all need to drink. However, a stego is easily avoidable, but I do agree it needs predators. The only issue with adding those larger predators is that those predators now come with even more issues. What else will they eat? Can they even sustain themselves? Will they become the new stegos? Can they catch anything on the roster?

Hopefully, mid-tiers will come soon and adding an apex could be feasible.

[ocean sentinel]

I fail to see how not being able to hunt is weakness for a herbivore, which doesn't need to hunt at all, and is better off avoiding encounters in the first place. If anything the lack of a need to hunt is strength, as you don't put your self in a much risk to get food. Sure you need to travel to have a perfect diet, which present s some risk, but that isn't even required and everyone else has to do that anyway so it's not a relative weakness.

[slim dragon]

It's not a weakness
It's a justification for it being fine as it is

[ocean sentinel]

You are forced to approach Deinos yes, but you have options to mitigate risk, such as drinking in shallow water so they can't approach without caus large ripples that are hard to miss, and sticking in a group so there are more people to watch for them, so I don't think it's particular unfair. About apex predators, deinosuchus was an apex predator of its environment, being more than capable of rivaling megatherapods, and while I can understand weakening it for gameplay reasons do to a lack of other apex predators to compete with for the time being, we can't forget stegosaurus was a prey item that really only apex predators could've hunted reliably, so an apex predator is needed. Stegosaurus was probably better off being added alongside a true megatherapod. One that could match in combat, while also being a serious threat to the deino on land as to balance out it's supremacy in the water.

[frail bobcat]

Utah . . got five buffs

we will have a threat for steogs

[hasty coyote]

I agree that you can mitigate your contact with deinos, but I'm mainly putting that out there because there is nothing that drives you near a stego, but thirst drives you near the deino.
Also, yes, stego should not have been added so soon, but neither should have deino.

[hasty coyote]

plus indirect buffs for most of its matchups

[frail bobcat]

i counted them in

[ocean sentinel]

I think that is a fair conclusion, deino would've been best added alongside another apex predator, along with stego.

[hasty coyote]

I've said it before and I'll say it again:
Utah is going to be carno 2.0: now with skill

They are literally making the exact same mistake as they did last patch: fixing EVERY issue for utah instead of a few and slowly changing it.

[ocean sentinel]

You attack balancing issues with a scalpel, not a sledgehammer. That is all I will say on that.

[slim dragon]

Isn't saying deino should oneshot stego taking a balance issue with a sledgehammer tho ?

[ocean sentinel]

I had a feeling you would say that. I don't think it would be, as you are only changing one thing, that being deino drag weight limit. While this greatly impacts Deinos effectiveness against stego in the water, it doesn't change anything else, and adjusting it again shouldn't be too much of a hassle.

[slim dragon]

It makes it able to one-shot the biggest creature in the game
When it should normally take 6 hits to do so
So yes, it's a bit excessive

At best, you're multiplying deino's effectiveness 6 times
At worst, you're making it infinite because then it becomes simply impossible to match
Imagine 2 deinos going on land, one caan just grab a stego and hold it in place while the other one bites it, and they can take turns doing that

[ocean sentinel]

If a stego sits around and let's a deino, which has one of if not the worst sprint speed and the definite worst sprint stamina usage in the game run up to it and grab it on land, as well as being the largest creature in the game, then it honestly deserved that.

It's honestly a feat in itself, to be so oblivious as to get ambushed by an 8 ton semi-aquatic alligatoroid on land, unless it managed to grab you from the water.

The Isle is supposed to be a brutal survival game, you shouldn't have the luxury of being able to get away with being so oblivious, and that even applies to apex predators, including deinosuchus itself.

Also it does not make deino 6 times as effective, being able to drag a stego does not make it anymore effective against the other creatures.

[slim dragon]

Deino is faster on land than stego tho

And you consider than a deino ambushing something its own size on land and killing it with no possibility of counterplay at all is fine ? Even if it needs a pair to do so, this is absolutely crazy.

[slim dragon]

It removes the only situation where deino's strength comes into account

[hollow canyon]

Wait what?

[obtuse ocean]

How many bites do a deino needs to kill a utah ?

[hollow canyon]

1

[slim dragon]

Unless it's been changed since last time I played deino
But it's possible, I very rarely play it anyway

[obtuse ocean]

ohh, normal bite or alt ?

[hollow canyon]

both deal the same damage so either of them

[hollow canyon]

Deino's always been slower

[obtuse ocean]

ohh, didnt know that nice

[hollow canyon]

Stego used to be 26km/h, Deino used to be 24km/h prior to its nerf, now it's 18km/h

[slim dragon]

Sub deino then maybe ? I'm sure at some point in growth deino is faster than stego

[hollow canyon]

Yea sub Deino is faster it reaches over 30km/h at one point

[ocean sentinel]

That is a fair point, though I've already stated that another apex predator should've been added with deino to balance it out, being able to pose a serious threat when the deino on land to counter it's supremacy in water. That being said, deino shouldn't be able to run around oneshotting things on land effectively, I can agree with you that. However, the drag requires drowning to be an effective oneshot, does it not? All you have to do, is making dragging things around cost enough stamina, and it will make catching stegos on land and dragging them to the water an unviable strategy.

[slim dragon]

Even catching a stego near water and dragging it down to drown it is too much, that's still a one-shot with no possibility of counterplay
I can't see deino grabbing a stego until a proper tug-of-war mechanic is implemented

[ocean sentinel]

Fair enough, having stego be grabbable, but being able to fight back would be both more interesting from gameplay perspective, and have a higher likelihood of being balanced.

[slim dragon]

yes

[ocean sentinel]

Had only you said that earlier.

[obtuse ocean]

I mean deino will have alot of stuff on its grabbing menu, if it can grab a 80% grown stego when more dinos gets added

[ocean sentinel]

Its less about adding more potential dinosaurs for deino to grab, and more about putting stego in it's place in the ecosystem. Even large sauropods could've occasionally fell to packs of megatherapods, but at the moment nothing seems to be able to take out a full grown stego, at least not at a rate above being exceedingly rare.

[slim dragon]

Utahs might with a fixed pounce and the buffs they got

[ocean sentinel]

Perhaps, we'll have to wait and see.

[true ginkgo]

thing is, it's not overpowered relative to what's coming. things like rex and trike might be even more powerful.

it's just been added too early. it's an apex tier animal in an ecosystem of smalls

it's probrably in the top 5 most powerful planned playable herbis in the game.

is it any wonder it's killing small tiers easily?

[ocean sentinel]

Problem with that argument is it curbstomps even the only apex predator in the game currently, so it doesn't really make sense, unless the devs understandably weakened deinosuchus to fit the ecosystem its in, but forgot to do the same with stegosaurus.

[true ginkgo]

There are no apex tier predators in the game. Deino maybe, but it's limited to water life, and is specialised at punching down at animals smaller than itself with its grab ability.

[frail bobcat]

its an apex predator

[slim dragon]

Also I believe stegosaurus is actually weakened to fit with the roster. I don't expect current stegosaurus to last long against a rex.

[true ginkgo]

carno is the next largest carni, and it's on the small end of mid tier...

and also a specialised small game hunter according to its info

[ocean sentinel]

Deinosuchus was an apex predator, it would've been capable of rivaling megatherapods such as Tyrannosaurus rex, capable of hunting them in the water and even deterring them on land.

[slim dragon]

real life is irrelevant

[ocean sentinel]

Problem with that is I see no reason to keep deinosuchus weaker than it would've been once true carnivorous megatherapods are added. If anything, it would be far more interesting for them to have overall equal that dominates the water, but is at a disadvantage to the rest on land.

Both the megatherapods and the deinosuchus would be occasional forced to cross through each others domains. The therapods when they got to drink or cross a river, and in the case of spinosaurus, to fish, and the deinosuchus when it goes to rest, as it can't rest in water.

[slim dragon]

I see a reason to make deinosuchus weaker than it was irl , which is that its gameplay is, by design, oppressive and uninteractive. It also has a lot advantages, balance-wise, that would make it so if it was made to be able to fight off apexes, it would actually be much stronger than them, because it also dominates the water, where no other threat can go.

It's already an extremely powerful ambusher with almost unlimited survivability, why would you make it a competent fighter on top of that ?

[ocean sentinel]

I said deter them, not always win against. Those are very different things.

[obtuse ocean]

The devs said apexes wont be fair fights, what deems to make them fair are actually the words they said : P

[hasty coyote]

I’m pretty sure deino is going to be the weakest apex, preferring to just avoid the others whenever possible. It already bullies 90% of the roster, and we don’t need a Dino that everything is forced to go to and can fight everything.

[slim dragon]

I did not say always win against either

Allowing deino to be able to fight off apexes, even if it's 50/50, is already a lot in terms of balance

[ocean sentinel]

I never said it has to be a 50/50. To deter, you just need to be enough of a risk to make them reconsider their options. Even if the deinosuchus will only beat a terrestrial apex in land say, 3/10s of the time, it's powerful bite still means a mistake could be lethal. Even if the megatherapod has a 70% chance of winning, they should still consider easier options. Heck the same logic could be applied to the megatherapods in the water. While the deinosuchus would be at an advantage, perhaps the megatherapods could still put up a fight, making the croc reconsider hunting it.

Neither would be able to easily crush the other without significant risk in any situation, though they'd be at advantage in there home environments. This would both be balanced, more interesting from a gameplay perspective, and somewhat realistic.

[slim dragon]

Deino wouldn't need more than a small buff to achieve that

[ocean sentinel]

Fair enough. I'm not sure how I think of that statement, only time will tell. I only wanted deino be buffed at the moment to remove stegos nigh invincibility, if the Utahraptor buff does that, it would be better to wait for the introduction of a worthy rival to give deino any sort of upgrade.

[harsh lark]

Reminder that deino only “punches down” because devs couldn’t figure out how to program a proper tug a war mechanic for things too big to pick up

A stego dipping it’s tiny head into the water should absolutely be a deino target, but it falls flat because of the programming hurdles

[ocean sentinel]

I think we can agree deino needs true competition, but I disagree when someone say stego keeps it in check. That is blatantly wrong, stegos, while sure they can beat deinos in a duel easily, quite bit too easily, aren't really a threat I find, rather just an annoyance. They have no real reason to hunt you down, and can easily be avoided anyway due to being so slow they can even be escaped easily if they catch you on land.

Unless you make the mistake of roaming far from water, in which case, that's your fault.

[true ginkgo]

as in the in game design makes it very specialised against creatures below half its size.

The low bite damage makes it poor against larger things, while the grab and drown mechanic makes it instant kill on anything below half its size

I do think that deinos bite should go up a bit though.

I don't like the 'fishing stego' gameplay.

stegos absolutely should not be fishing for deinos

[ocean sentinel]

Yeah, a stego should at very least bleed when you bite it in the head.

[hasty coyote]

it does

croc's bites deal bleed, and a good chunk of damage (unless you bite its tail)

[ocean sentinel]

Maybe the hit registrations a bit off then, I bite two stegos in the head earlier, and it seems neither started bleeding.

[noble wave]

Got killed in one hit from a tail slam of a teno as a 90% utah, is that right?

[hasty coyote]

was it a headshot?

if it was a headshot, that seems about right, but idk

[noble wave]

Nah it was a I was running away

To me it got me on my tail

[hasty coyote]

prob desync then and the game counted it as a headshot

[noble wave]

I'm shocked that a tailslam can one shot though even if it was on the head as an almost fully grown utah

[hasty coyote]

thats my best guess, since tail slam would have been a death sentence anyway

I think tail slam does about 200 damage (could be more honestly). So the 1.5x headshot multiplies makes that 300 damage, which would kill you if you were under 300kg

[noble wave]

Damn that's crazy, annoying it was a headshot since to me I was so far away from the tail running away

I thought tailslam was only really for stun not to kill haha

[hasty coyote]

yeah lag can affect the fights a lot in the current build sadly. Pachy's hits don't even register half the time because the server thinks you missed

[hasty coyote]

It mostly for the stun and long range, since kick does more damage and costs less stam, but it still deals a good chunk of damage.

[noble wave]

Yeah I've learnt that the hard way now, rip my poor utah, hopefully the desync gets fixed

[hasty coyote]

next patch seems to make the game more optimized, so we have to hope for the best lol.

[hollow canyon]

Deino is supposed to be getting clapped by Spino and it was said about Spino that Rex and Giga are going to be the main threats to it so... yea, if you want you can call Deinosuchus an apex but it is supposed to be losing against the other apexes.

also the goddamn thing was meant to be a mid tier

[true ginkgo]

hope elder deino is the full 13-14 tons.

acts as a stand in for true apex deino while keeping regular adult deino in its place as a punch down mid tier killer

there is nothing for deino to really show off its actual power against atm. that grab will be insanely good once more of the roster is in

allo, alberto, maybe para, sucho. Dinos up to 4 tons will get one shotted with that grab and drown move.

[tall bronze]

I don't know how I feel about an elder stage completely changing how a creature plays.

Plus I just h a t e big Deino ;o;

[true ginkgo]

I mean that's not really changing how it plays. It's just same, but larger.

[tall bronze]

If it can grab things it normally can't grab, I'd say that's pretty significant <:/

[ocean sentinel]

As much as I liked to see a full sized deinosuchus hatcheri, I think it may be too far. The thing weighed 14-16 tons, so could perhaps even drag the current deino, which is ridiculous.

[hollow canyon]

Well the largest estimates put it at 14t, not 16t

16t is an overestimate idk where you saw it

[ocean sentinel]

Everytime I see it's labeled as 14-16.

I'll admit I don't know the best sources for this kinda of information.

[hollow canyon]

Pardon me - the upper one goes up to 15t+ but it never quite reaches 16t

this is the largest Deinosuchus

[ocean sentinel]

Yeah I've seen that before, but the words are too small, it comes across as a pixelated mess.

Even then going with the smaller estimate, that's still the current deino plus the current stego.

[hollow canyon]

Stego is also smaller than its largest irl estimate actually

both are undersized in the game although for different reasons

[ocean sentinel]

Well I can see why the deino is undersized. It's an act of mercy towards everyone who isn't one.

[true ginkgo]

I mean elders are probrably going to be a decent power jump

they're not just cosmetic

main reason i like 12-14 ton elder deino is that it lets them have their power fantasy of grabbing stegos, while keeping it super rare.

[ocean sentinel]

So this elder thing is a mechanic they plan in adding?

[stark knoll]

Yes, it's on the roadmap

[ocean sentinel]

Strange, how would one become an elder?

[stark knoll]

From what we know, by following certain diet and perk paths

[ocean sentinel]

So would any adult be able to become one, or do they have to follow the path from the very start?

[true ginkgo]

yeah it sounds like it's extremely difficult to get.

i suspect if you've bush grown or got the wrong perks you might be locked out of it

wonder what will be in it for the player if you follow perk paths which don't go to elder

[ocean sentinel]

I think if the diet has to pursued from the start that just locks out people who've already grown up.

[stark knoll]

Probably just having those perks until you die regularly as opposed to death by elder cycle

[ocean sentinel]

Not to mention a lot of diet requirements are pretty ludicrous at the moment.

[true ginkgo]

excited to see dryo perks and elder

[ocean sentinel]

Some diet requirements involve only player species that few people even play, so it's more luck then anything.

Anyway I think this strayed far from balance feedback.

[true ginkgo]

yeah i hate that

[ocean sentinel]

This elder status shouldn't come easy, but it shouldn't be based on gambling either, a tough but fair approach would be best.

[void depot]

nah. my point is totally reasonable.

[ocean sentinel]

Does timer reaction in #balance-feedback mean they are working on it? Sorry I'm new here.

[somber sphinx]

It’s already fixed in the next update which wil probably be this week or next

I’m guessing this but we will see

[grave veldt]

a 14 ton deino can grab and essentially one shot anything 7 tons or less which is absurd

[short spire]

Balanced out by how absurdly small the “rivers” are

[grave veldt]

they should fix that too all the rivers r incredibly short like way too short

[thin mantle]

Oh fascinating, mind explaining why?

Typically when points against our own are levied, our responses usually involve those counter arguments… because refuting contradictory arguments is how we make our own stances seem stronger!
So some of that would be appreciated

[short spire]

@opaque beacon even 1 completely safe water source nukes deinos viabilty, especially if it's really easily accessible. also, crossing a river should never be safe lol. its meant to be a dangerous decision.

[opaque beacon]

I agree with that, but rivers arent always deep, there should areas where its shallow, I dont know what river is 6 feet deep its entire length

[dusky surge]

i'd honestly really only want shallows to return with animals like suchomimus

[short spire]

gameplay is more important than realism in this scenario

[dusky surge]

last time we had shallows, it made for really boring gameplay where no one went anywhere else but the one spot with the safe water

[short spire]

plus some of the rivers on spiro do get really shallow, namely the one leading out of southpond

[opaque beacon]

I am not asking for shallows, Im asking for some sort of shallow spot that you can drink safely out of

[dusky surge]

we already have that

[opaque beacon]

Not enough

[short spire]

you shouldn't always be able to drink safely

[opaque beacon]

If you consider the amount of deinos covering the rivers I would not think its enough

[short spire]

i almost never die when drinking lol

[dusky surge]

i think we do have enough. Eventually it gets to the point of "why do I bother engaging with deinosuchus when I have the option to opt out of even taking risks?"

[dusky surge]

same, it's pretty easy to detect deino activity

[opaque beacon]

If thats the case, than you're saying that every dino that needs water should take in the fact that a deino is underneath?

[dusky surge]

yes

[short spire]

people are simultaneously saying "no one dies to deino ambush" and also "deino ambushes too easily" so that tells me its pretty balanced lol

[dusky surge]

that is very much the point of the removal of shallows

[short spire]

yes you're supposed to take some risk when drinking

[opaque beacon]

Doesn't quite sit right as you know in the wild there's always shallower areas where animals tend to choose to drink other than a deep lake where they don't know what's under

[short spire]

once again, realism < gameplay here

for deino to work without being changed fundamentally, players have to drink unsafely

[dusky surge]

so go to the shallow waters instead nothing is stopping you

we currently already have several shallow areas

[opaque beacon]

Not true, not enough

But it's what you believe

[short spire]

how much are you dying to deinos lol

[opaque beacon]

Just a suggestion, you dont have to agree

[short spire]

yeah and i'm voicing my opinion on your suggestion

[opaque beacon]

I swear to you I dont die to them, its just weird that every time you need water you think you can possibly die

[dusky surge]

remember when oasis and shallows were things and no one went anywhere else but these two spots and it fucking sucked for gameplay and wasn't fun

[short spire]

i mean personally i enjoy that feeling, the isle is a survival horror game after all

[opaque beacon]

Once again, I dont ask for shallows to come back

[opaque beacon]

That can be argued

[short spire]

deino players are pretty braindead and barely move around anyways so there's not really much to worry about

[dusky surge]

it can't, the devs literally designed this game, and have described it, as survival horror. It is inherently going to get changes that add to that

[opaque beacon]

We will see how the droughts will work out, than there's nothing to argue about.

[short spire]

true

[opaque beacon]

I was talking about the fact that its a (good) feeling

[dusky surge]

personally, adding even one new shallow area in a map which is easy to find/utilise with already a ton if you know where to look will end up ruining a ton of deino gameplay and the risks that come with using the water

[ocean sentinel]

Those areas might not always be available in real life.

You can have shallow areas where players can drink to be safer from deinos, but they shouldn't be too common.

And to clarify, I mean more shallow areas within rivers, not some pool disconnected from it.

[dusky surge]

already how it is

[ocean sentinel]

Then it's fine the way it is.

Well, other than the glitched drinking spots, which should be done for next update.

[dusky surge]

i can honestly think of 3 shallow areas off the bat, as well as a few disconnected pools and puddles

[ocean sentinel]

I'm hoping the removal of glitched drinking spots will allow deino to be quite a bit harder to avoid and less of piscivore and part time cannibal, with drought system then changing things up and putting the dinos in a better position.

A back and forth dynamic between different parts of the ecosystem could make things interest. Droughts would temporarily weaken aquatic life while strengthening terrestrial life, and I'm sure other such systems could be made in the future.

[dusky surge]

you must consider drought also limits the space aquatic life can live, which is both good and bad for terrestrials. The worst part is absolutely that you have a WAY likelier chance of encountering a deino in the water during a drought

droughts will likely be a time of a lot of in-species competition and cannibalism for deinosuchus

[ocean sentinel]

I watched a video about the drought system, and it left behind a lot of small shallow pools that a deino could never hide in and fish couldn't fit in for smaller aquatics added in the future.

[dusky surge]

ehh, this map is not at all designed for a drought system

by the time it arrives, I forsee heavy changes to the map's design

[ocean sentinel]

Perhaps

[dusky surge]

otherwise droughts are just a big middle finger to the deino

droughts and floods should not be seen as explicitly good or bad, there are downsides to both

[ocean sentinel]

That isn't a bad take, though I would like to state I think it would be interesting if on rare occasions, the state of the game changed in a way that put certain species on the brink for a short time.

[short spire]

I’d imagine there would be floods along with droughts

Water level could be raised just as easily as lowered

[dusky surge]

there will be

[ocean sentinel]

This does make me wonder, what other dynamic systems will they add, if any?

I find a weather system likely, but I don't think rain alone will shift the balance much.

[short spire]

Iirc rain main smelling harder in legacy

Another system could be wind which messes with pt flight

[silk harness]

Updrafts are confirmed which I think would allow ptera to ascend and maintain altitude better

[obtuse ocean]

Yea they did mention something about it

[dusky surge]

okay that was quite literally ages ago

[obtuse ocean]

yea thats ages ago, but looks like its gonna be done at some point

[dusky surge]

it was already done?

they already added both enhanced swimming and water interaction

[obtuse ocean]

oww, ok. I tho they would do it when they actually add rivers. Cus they are crap now lol

[dusky surge]

they already added rivers??

[obtuse ocean]

yea, but like rivers that are actually good.

Atleast i hope they gonna make them better/deeper etc

[frail bobcat]

I like the current rivers

[obtuse ocean]

Whats good with them ?

[frail bobcat]

They have a good width so you can actually cross them without it taking like 2 minutes, the crocs have enough chances to kill prey with u5 and there is a few shallow spots that small deinos and smaller semiaquatics are gonna love because biggies cant go there that well

[obtuse ocean]

Im not sure, i can jump over most places. And walk over with stegos etc. And spino/cherius gonna be quite big in most places

[dusky surge]

cherius got no shallows yet so

[true ginkgo]

I liked oasis. But there should have been more hotspots to spread some players away from oasis.

Also there were too many diet plants there.

[dusky surge]

this is very true

i also think the shallow water and mudpits didn't help how much people loved it

[true ginkgo]

Having no hotspots spreads players about.
Having lots of hotspots spreads players about.

Having few hotspots makes every player group into a tiny space.

[dusky surge]

also having a hotspot smack bang in the centre of the map

it isnt ideal

[true ginkgo]

It's like each update there has been a different hotspot, as one is added and old one is deleted.

If they were all in, players would be spread.

Centre swamp, mossy pond, oasis, coastal pond, the pool at the river source. And basis point rock which wasn't really a hotspot, but was super useful.

[obtuse ocean]

This changed my mind on hotspots, well said : P

[true ginkgo]

The way I think of hotspots is this:

They're an area of the map which is 'more fun' for players to be in than the rest of the map. So naturally players will go there. If there are few 'more fun' areas, players will group at those. Adding more 'fun' areas makes players have more spots to visit and spread around.

In deleting hotspots, you're essentially trying to make the map 'less fun', by removing the areas players enjoy. It has the exact same effect of spreading players around, but for a different reason.

It's making the entire map equally fun, or equally bland.

[hasty coyote]

I have been arguing for this exact same thing lol
(Read the one I had replied to first)
#general-feedback message

[true ginkgo]

I do agree with that. Though I do think that hotspots should be more than just food.

People largely go to hotspots because they're visually interesting and often are interactable (fun rocks to climb). They give something to latch onto in that respect. You could make a 'hotspot' purely with food in a grassy plain. But people would prefer to find a place which sticks in their mind.

[hasty coyote]

That one was a bit old honestly, I just wanted to show I have been making this argument too.

My ideal hotspot would have terrain that helps certain species. Such as a cliff side at the beach with climbable ledges for pachies and pteras. Pteras would have the high cliffs and fish nearby. While pachies would have lower ledges and the nearby cocos. Water and more diet would encourage them to leave the “safety” of the cliffs and still move around.

Most recent idea for hotspots that explains it better:

#general-feedback message

[ocean sentinel]

Herbivores don't really have a reason to track blood, and I don't see how allowing them to benefits the game. All this does is making it easier for herbivores to chase down retreating predators, which in my opinion, would just make carnivores more annoying to play.

[dusky surge]

@silk harness smelling blood is pretty decent for survival and a good middle ground between not seeing footprints. Blood is a potent and recognisable scent, so it makes no sense why a herbi could not pick it up. Herbivores should be alerted of danger through the smell of blood, and they can't really "track" because they have no footprint scent and once the bleed is healed, they lose all tracking tools

[silk harness]

Realism does not equal good gameplay, and blood is far better for tracking than footprints. Do you really want herbivores to be further encouraged to just running around and KOSing everyone? I feel like the realism argument would be against that. It's already an issue in U4, but at least you can just run into the forest and lose them easily.

Knowing the playerbase, it's going to be used for hunting far more than recognizing danger.

[dusky surge]

pachy can't apply bleed and stego almost always kills first hit, so the only one who could possibly "hunt" with this is a teno, who has a highly defensive moveset

[hasty coyote]

also, all the herbies are slower than the carnivores. So they can just, walk away.

[dusky surge]

blood is good to indicate danger, i use the blood in the water all the time as a herbivore to determine how safe a drinking spot is

blood also doesn't show direction

[silk harness]

You can't just walk away when you're severely bleeding

[dusky surge]

how hard are you bleeding in a herbi fight

[hasty coyote]

Also, certain herbivores will actually need to see bleed. Say, theri, who will likely deal massive bleed with attacks, so it will need to tell if the opponent is bleeding.

[silk harness]

Fights aren't as simple as that. Pachies group with tenos and small stegos aren't going to 1 shot everything. Beyond that this is a problem for the future when you have certatopsians that can attack while sprinting, many being faster than large carnivores most likely

[hasty coyote]

then you're not escaping in the first place.

[silk harness]

And it isn't just about herbi v carni. Herbies would be able to roll up on carni v carni fights and pick off the stragglers. Cannibal herbis would be able to mixpack with carnis and help them track and kill targets.

[silk harness]

Not sure what you mean by this. Currently you can just run into dense forest and sit down and a herbivore wont find you

[hasty coyote]

I do not consider mixpacking in balance, that should be addressed as a separate issue since it impacts EVERYTHING else too. And things should not be able to both fight back AND run away, so stuff like ceratopsians will likely be slower.

well then, guess we get to see how this impacts the game soon lmao

[silk harness]

I just don't see how the positives outweigh the negatives with this change. Sensing danger through blood where it wouldn't otherwise be obvious already is a pretty rare scenario, even as carnivores currently. And I don't know how you could deny that it will encourage KOS herbivores that literally hunt people down in prolonged chases

It takes away from the purpose of carnivores when herbivores have better combat stats and can hunt almost just as effectively as carnis

[deft blaze]

WHAT THE FUCK DID THEY DO TO MY CRABS

[sonic flame]

compared to 4.5, the crabs have a higher mass

but the mass was slightly lowered during the stress test

it's not as high as during the start of the ST, but still higher than 4.5

[stark knoll]

@ancient elm The higher percentages are a result of the hatchling stage taking up the first 5-25% of the percentage bar and getting skipped. As far as I'm aware stat curves should be the same

[wheat ridge]

@silk harness carnis also KOS all the time even with they are not hungy, you cant make50% of the roaster unfun to play just because you think they should be weaker, should behave like you want them to and are less fun to play, people already dont play as much herbis because they already are restricted in their playstyle alot

[slim dragon]

Besides

[wheat ridge]

yeah many forget this game is a PVP game

[mint rain]

oh wow utah with a whopping 10 more bite force. Now it takes only 25 bites to kill something

[slim dragon]

If by "something" you mean stego, then yes, and it's normal.

[dusky surge]

10 more damage is really good for utah

it's a solid buff

[slim dragon]

It's 20% bonus damage
Which is huge

[dusky surge]

it's a perfect balance between an okay buff and an overpowered buff

[wheat ridge]

the pouncing in the face of something and teleporting to the side is pretty OP, i hope it gets fixed ngl

[stark knoll]

@thin mantle #balance-feedback-discussion message

[dusky surge]

@thin mantle With the addition of the hatchling phase, wouldn't you be more like 20%?

[thin mantle]

Well I never was a hatchling, I spawned normally

[dusky surge]

it still accounts for hatchling iirc

[thin mantle]

Can't imagine it would considering I spawned MUCH larger than a hatchling

[dusky surge]

As in, the profile page will display you as 20% the MOMENT you spawn

(as juvi)

[stark knoll]

Yea, most things spawn between 10-30% because of hatchlings

[dusky surge]

yea there we go

[thin mantle]

Gotcha

[thin mantle]

I spawned at around 15% ish

[stark knoll]

Growth percent is now representative of time to adulthood rather than size

[thin mantle]

Still feels weird that I'm 5% away from being a categorical sub adult and don't even weight 250 yet

[stark knoll]

Not quite, since now the % to reach X stage depends on species

[thin mantle]

What's it at for teno?

[stark knoll]

IE deino reaches juvenile from hatchling at 9% (which is what you spawn as)

Teno I have no Idea

If you want to get technical, keep an wye on which silhouette is highlighted

That's what stage you're in, for all intents and purposes

For example you're able to nest once you hit the adult stage as a species, which is all at different percents for them

[thin mantle]

Hmm, alright then, doesn't particularly matter now since 7 utahs just got me xD

But thanks for the info

[dusky surge]

@slender kettle the weight system has not changed, the growth has

[azure crescent]

^ it just takes hatchlings into account

and i'm pretty sure it applies to all playables

[short spire]

Yeah all the stats are still the same is my understanding

It’s just that the growth percentages are different

Unique for each Dino I think

[tranquil pawn]

@slender kettle I'm pretty sure the weight issue is because the new hatchling phase of growth even if you spawned in causes the system to think you have the wrong stats at the wrong growth stage or smth

like a sub adult might have the stats/weight of a juvie

[short spire]

No it’s just that you spawn at like 10-20% depending on the dino

Because it takes hatchlings into account

[true ginkgo]

dryo spawns at 30% so one of the highest

[short spire]

@livid spindle growth-weight rates are the same it’s just that the percentage has to take hatchlings into account

So the old 0% is now like 10-30% depending on the Dino

[grave veldt]

For me I was about 600 kg at 60%

[hallow spire]

@kindred drift I’m not gonna say skill issue or anything bc I haven’t fought utahs as a carno yet but were u bucking

[kindred drift]

Yes, obviously

[kindred drift]

bucking didn't help, by the time i finally killed one who got stuck i had 20% blood left from 2 short pounces alone

[hallow spire]

Geez just asking :/ and wow

[kindred drift]

Sorry I didn't mean to come off as rude, I'm just annoyed at how easily they took me and 3 other carnos down from just bleed

It wasn't even a long battle either. from the time we saw them and the time i died was maybe 10-15 minutes

[azure crescent]

love how people struggle to understand that the growth system is different because of hatchlings

[short spire]

Fr, it’s very funny

You could put it in announcements and people would still say “wHy Is My 60% So LiGhT”

[alpine plover]

It's not just because of that though, you do seriously gain weight too slow. In update 4 it was much faster, even disregarding the 20% of hatchlings

[short spire]

@proud anchor ai isn’t supposed to feed adults. Hunt players

[proud anchor]

.... You completely missed the point.

Also, that statement is wrong.

[short spire]

“Too many mouths to feed, not enough food”

[proud anchor]

Yes, babies need food.

[short spire]

There’s enough for the babies

Especially combined with scavenging from corpses

[proud anchor]

You're telling me to get into a massive bloodbath to raise a baby? No...

[short spire]

If you’re an adult, I don’t see why you can’t hunt players to feed your babies

That’s what these animals would have done

[proud anchor]

Anyway... There ya go.

[short spire]

Ok guess I disagree with punch on that one then 🤷

Imo, the isle is so interesting because you have to hunt players to survive

[proud anchor]

I mean... Personally I think it's boring to run for corner to corner to corner of the map only to find a baby juvi, or a megapack, and by the time you find either, you're already way past starving.
That's a boring gameplay loop.

[short spire]

Usually herbis congregate in certain spots which you can go to, mainly getting diet foods

A lot of them have food in southeast swamp and they hang out by the dam

[proud anchor]

I feel like Pack Scent could be at much longer ranges to force that interaction, imo.

Scent scaling off of general size of the creature, or the sum of the creatures in a pack/megapack would be a fantastic addition to the hunter's toolkit.

As it stands however... It doesn't take much to evade a hunter. Making it seem like the map is empty.

[harsh lark]

Whats needed is a long range but imprecise method of tracking. Something that helps you find the general area someone is in, but not their exact location. Otherwise the only way to find areas with players in them is to beeline to established hotspots or risk going to potential deadzones that will just starve you to death

Nobody wants to risk doing the latter which is why its very easy to go to an abandoned area as a herb and hide out there to grow, because very few people are willing to go risk their hunger bars looking for you

[hexed sorrel]

them making weight gain most at the last 5% encourages more camping

no one wants to go out when they are a 200kg 90% utah

[short spire]

I mean, broadcast calls kind of work for that, though obviously there’s no guarantee a herbi will broadcast

Not sure how a system for long range imprecise tracking could work tho

[azure crescent]

@hexed sorrel this applies to basically all playables, its because growth takes hatchlings into account

[hexed sorrel]

but even so

this is ridiculous

[azure crescent]

i don't think you can change this without messing up hatchlings and the weight system

[harsh lark]

the issue is that no player who isnt new to the game will ever broadcast while growing, and its not a good thing to force players to broadcast time to time and strip control either. Courtship kinda has the right idea though, its neat that players have to make the loud courting sounds to initiate the nesting process. Maybe more stuff like that could be added, like having to broadcast to initiate specific actions.

[dusky surge]

i reckon the game should add mating calls by pressing the nesting key without any available mates within an appropriate range to begin courting

[short spire]

I mean sometimes I broadcast while growing to find other players

[azure crescent]

deino’s nesting call would be broadcast with more bass and i like it

[harsh lark]

well as it stands the base principle is that if there's nothing to gain from making sounds people wont make sounds. Especially when third party communication like discord already exists to help you find allies. (which means only solo players would have to utilize sounds)

[frail bobcat]

Yes

[opaque beacon]

@analog mirage Three body bites from a carno ends a utah, While yes it is weird to get close to bleeding out from a utah pounce, You should not run when you get pounced and just get the 3 body shots in, Utah is is easy to kill and utah can easily kill you.

[analog mirage]

Obviously you shouldn’t run, I’m just saying now that Utah can properly pounce it shouldn’t have straight easy win because “it’s pounce works” it still needs to be able to have somewhat of a challenge since Carno is much larger than it

[half girder]

carnos malding so hard now that it takes skill to play puts a smile on my face

[analog mirage]

I agree Carno should have to try and have skill. Just shouldn’t be this easy for Carno to get killed

[half girder]

the blood pool is a bit overkill maybe increase it slightly or make it not as effective when standing, cuz after some testing bites would put a moving carno(around fresh adult) to about 20% in 11-12 hits and by then the bleed would basically kill it off

pounce isnt really needed lol

[versed rune]

just dropping in here to say that i hunted a carno as utah duo today, between myself and my friend we got a total of 12 seconds of pouncing it in the entire fight and it died

recorded it too, counted the exact seconds

its wacky

[half girder]

2 buck pounces puts a carno to 30% 🙂

[versed rune]

how fun and cool

[analog mirage]

Hence it’s just too easy to kill Carno. Which is a creature much larger than a Utah

[half girder]

utah is too powerful as of now, not cuz of its stats but other playables

[versed rune]

only in the isle do we get a fixed utah pounce after a year of asking, and then they say, "you know what would make this better? if we broke carno in response"

[half girder]

casper in that session how many pachys did u run into?

[versed rune]

lmao zero

[half girder]

yeah figured

it needs to hit harder tbh

[versed rune]

its almost like nerfing its damage and buffing its turn so it becomes a useless rat instead of a heavy battering ram was a bad idea ☠️

[half girder]

do u know the current ram dmg?

[versed rune]

i dont, no

[half girder]

its 100.

[versed rune]

good gravy

[half girder]

it was 160 then down to 150

id say, from testing

120 dmg would be perfect

[analog mirage]

What’s Utahs new bf

[versed rune]

65

so one pachy ram that costs stam and leaves u vulnerable can be doubled by 2 risk free utah left clicks

not saying 65 bite utah is bad but why did they make pachy a fat dryo again

shoulda kept the reduced rear up mobility and left its damage as medium to high

[half girder]

120 taking into account that carno's actually take more and more dmg the more u hit them with body shots

or even anywhere thats fractured

[versed rune]

carno specifically????

[half girder]

yes

[versed rune]

or is that a new universal thing

LMFAO WHAT NO WAY

i refuse to believe they added that

[half girder]

maybe for everything

so to kill a carno to the body

[versed rune]

i would assume it'd be for everything yeah

[half girder]

would take maybe around 16 headbutts

[versed rune]

thats still less than before

*more

[half girder]

maybe lower, i dont rem exactly

[versed rune]

honestly i think the 10to 12 hits to kill a carno was fine

[half girder]

killing a utah takes 5 lol

[versed rune]

it made sense but also didnt let pachys just steamroll carno

[half girder]

to the head 3

should be 2 to the head tbh

[versed rune]

well they nerfed it because in they reverted its ram turn nerf. then it became too strong so instead of reverting the reversion they nuked its damage

[half girder]

but since i love the new turning i dont mind the dmg not being as much, again 120 would be nice

[versed rune]

which was a very wacky decision

[half girder]

cuz pachys do have tap fracture too so

pachy did feel alot more clunky with slow turning and how the ram worked, now it feels a bit better

[alpine plover]

Maybe then, dont stick around utahs? It was about time carnos got knocked

[versed rune]

sounds like someone lost to shift + w carnos one too many times

[alpine plover]

Do agree it's crazy right now, too much bleed, but it was bound to happen eventually

Carno shouldnt be a fields hunter, it needs stealth. Yesterday 2 carnos eliminated half my pack because they did what a real animal would do, sneak up

Not just 1 call all over central and get rocked by 2 utahs

[dusky surge]

i think the statement "carno shouldn't be a fields hunter" while carno is designed from the start to be a fields hunter is very amusing to me

[alpine plover]

See, that's where the problem starts. Yes, it's meant to be a fields hunter, but if you hear utahs maybe try to ambush them instead of letting them jump you

[analog mirage]

Hence why I like the pursuit hunter rather than a pure ambusher. Just makes more sense in the fields

[alpine plover]

It is a mix of both, just depends on your prey

[opaque beacon]

It does, the 3 chances till death

I love how you just ignore that it three taps you if you were a utah

[opaque beacon]

Its not easy mate, you miss you're pounce you're either dead or 1/4th health lmao

Maybe you should learn to bait pounces instead of saying its "too easy" to die

Not trying to be toxic, but please understand that a carno is not an apex predator, and It doesn't need to be feared by everything.

[analog mirage]

Not hard to miss, run up, click rmb and success

[opaque beacon]

I dont think so man, its not like that, it can be super easy to miss if you look in a certain angle

That chance and the 3 tap death chance should be enough to be fair to kill a utah

[analog mirage]

Then again it’s not like it’s much of a risk since you get up in half a second

[alpine plover]

They nerfed recovery a bit again, it's definitely enough time to get a bite in

[opaque beacon]

Trust me, just do what I say and you wont die in a 2v1

[short spire]

Carno also isn’t really meant for long sustained fights. It has a massive advantage in an ambush and can deal lots of burst damage, but it’s terrible turning means it can’t keep up with more agile species in close quarters. Imo, carnos strategy should be to stalk its prey from the shadows and strike when they’re vulnerable. Obviously, it should be able to defend itself somewhat, but I think 2 utahs who get the jump on a carno should be a fair fight.

[versed rune]

i agree with 2 decent utahs being able to take out a carno but when one pounce can bring you down as far as 30% bleed we have a problem

[dusky surge]

i honestly think the bleed nerf was unnecessary. I'd personally make carno do less bleed not take more

[versed rune]

the best course of action is to revert the bleed changes to carno and go from there by seeing how utah and carno perform against one another without it. idk why its so hard for people to grasp that nerfing things makes no one happy and makes things so much more complicated

[analog mirage]

Agreed

[versed rune]

this 100%. its a literal abelisaurid and should be DPS focused because of that. has no use for bleed other than for the sake of slight advantage and by its nature of having a mouth with teeth in it

[dusky surge]

like when the hell have you seen a carno really care about its bleed? its not endurance hunting, that's for sure

[versed rune]

also slight off topic but.... how exactly are new players supposed to efficiently grow carnivores, specifically carno, when its // nutrient is literally extinct

hell, how are veterans supposed to do it efficiently

[half girder]

preach

blood pool nerf isnt so bad cuz it punishes carno for being so gun-ho

could be increased a slight bit tho

[dusky surge]

i mean, blood pool wasn't nerfed

bleed rate was

[half girder]

yes.

i dont mind it too much

[rapid flicker]

@opaque beacon Carno players have such a low skill level because their dino has been so overpowered. The guys playing it still don’t know basic game mechanics lel

[opaque beacon]

Just dont run

[keen plover]

^

Would like to know how that carno was playing too

Since terrain is also always an option

You can knock utahs off again on trees

[tranquil pawn]

[grave veldt]

wait u can?

[keen plover]

Yep

[grave veldt]

greatest change in u5

[keen plover]

certain trees tbf, some types don't.

[grave veldt]

palms work?

[rapid flicker]

Rocks do too

[keen plover]

I can't remember, but generally forest trees work

[grave veldt]

so does the knock down work essentially like how it did b4

or does it simply just drop the utah with no animation

[keen plover]

Oh yeah, long get up

like when you have no stam

[grave veldt]

Nice

[rapid flicker]

Utah should be in a good spot right now. Pounce fixed. Lower miss animation. Lower knockdown duration

[opaque beacon]

Another factor xD

[frail bobcat]

But the miss animation is to short

Leaves no room for punishments

[keen plover]

My only 'complaint' is that utahs can trade a hit and pounce. So if a carno bites, they eat the bite and just pounce you. Idk how to feel about it.

[opaque beacon]

I somewhat agree with you, I believe it should be a little be longer so that the carno can bite you

[rapid flicker]

I agree

[opaque beacon]

That too, if a utah pounces and the carno bites, they should take at LEAST half the dammege

if its from the front*

[keen plover]

Not even half imo, they shouldn't even be able to pounce you at all. Idk a counter to that. Should it count as a failed pounce or equivalent to having no stam and falling off?

pouncing from the front is fine if they don't actually bite you imo

[opaque beacon]

But that would break the pounce again, unless they can make it 100% working it should take dammege and not let you pounce and play the miss anim

[keen plover]

yeah miss would probs be best imo

something to stop utahs from just trading hits

[opaque beacon]

yeh

And if your a carno fighting utahs, dont try to tank utah hits, the bleed stacks

any bite you should avoid

[keen plover]

100%, play around a pack. Do not just fight them with no ambush.

[frail bobcat]

@neat forge the onyl nerf utah needs is a longer delay until it stands up after a pounce, otherwise its very good

[neat forge]

No not even that is needed
Carnos have still enough time to punish me for it if they dont slide away
And on top the Stand up already looks realistic

There is absolutely no need to change that
And It's Helping Utah to life longer in endurance fight
Because
Utahs is a Endurance hunter

Especially against Stego

[frail bobcat]

I suggest you go into balance feedback and look at poutinnes post and watch the video he posted, maybe that will help you understand what I mean

[neat forge]

Dude I played Carno
Yee it's Harder to Punish a Utah now but if you're not always run you can just turn around and kill the Utah or make him 1 bite away from death

[frail bobcat]

I am maining utah and its not the carno that has the problem, its pachy and teno

Please, just watch it

[obtuse ocean]

I mean in a 1v1 you shouldt mess with a carno

[frail bobcat]

I know but it gets out of hand when you can land between two carnos and be fine

[obtuse ocean]

Yea i totally agree, i saw the video.

[frail bobcat]

The pounce delay nerf is needed and then utah is fine

[neat forge]

Just work on pachy
If they add 0.5 sec he's a safe death again

Staying for my Opinion that Utah is perfect RN
And maybe some other Dino need to be looked at

[frail bobcat]

Not a safe death, the entire matchup utah vs pachy is built that they use a failed right click of their opponent. The insanly low delay destroys this

Because they cant punish a failed pounce

[neat forge]

It doesn't Pachy has a low recovery too

So they actually have to think and not just wait for a Pounce

[frail bobcat]

Pachys recovery is WAY higher, its like 1.5 seconds

[half girder]

pachy and utah are the same

[opaque beacon]

Honestly just make the recovery a little bit longer

[neat forge]

People want a Lower cooldown on Utah Pounce and they get it, now people cry that they can't destroy a pack in 5 sec

[opaque beacon]

Yes it looks realistic but people want gameplay over realism apperatnly

[half girder]

no they dont lol

[neat forge]

And for that he needs 1 Ram on my leg and the fight is over

[half girder]

pachy has to 5 shot utah now

utah counters pachy now

its way harder to play pachy, not as easy which is good

[opaque beacon]

True they made it better to hit the leg

[frail bobcat]

Screenshot (15 Jul 2022 08:11:42)

[obtuse ocean]

I dont want to destroy utahs in packs, i wanne fear em. But if i see utahs jumping all over the place cus they have no skill to pounce me. But still beat the crap outta me thats sad : P

[frail bobcat]

Doesnt look like the delay of pachy got lowered

[half girder]

u have to aim for the head if u want to fight or leg break if u want to run

or just do both lol

pachy dmg being 100 is silly tho

[frail bobcat]

Which is bad

[half girder]

it is

but isle.

[neat forge]

U can already do that
One Fractured part and a Utah won't attack you and if punish him

[frail bobcat]

Pachy vs utah matchup should be 60/40

[dusky surge]

i mean, i've watched a pachy successfully dispatch of a pack solo

in U5

[half girder]

then they were very bad lol

[neat forge]

They pretty much counter each other

[dusky surge]

also pachy was given a specific utah counter buff

[half girder]

yeah

[dusky surge]

with the stamina damage increase

[opaque beacon]

Utah does not always counter pachy, the pachy has to be skilled enough to get one head ram in to either break the leg or the head, otherwise they die, if the utah can get a pounce in or two, they win.

[frail bobcat]

But you agree that utah needs the pounce delay nerf?

[dusky surge]

sure. I do kinda like the new pounce but damn is it fast

[half girder]

true

[dusky surge]

also the "brush" tech is back

[frail bobcat]

Brush?

[dusky surge]

where you can brush off utahs against trees and rocks

[frail bobcat]

Ok

[opaque beacon]

Yep

[neat forge]

Pachy vs Utah 1vs1 is pretty balanced now Pachys just have to get used to it and not be like
Funny Utah imma go ram it

[frail bobcat]

It is to fast

[dusky surge]

i think pachys just need to start adapting HOW they face utahs

[neat forge]

It was gone?

[dusky surge]

old strategies won't work

[opaque beacon]

Thank you

[dusky surge]

for U4, yes

[frail bobcat]

Utah is stronger now but the pounce delay is to low

[opaque beacon]

it should be a 1 second delay

[neat forge]

It isn't it looks realistic now only thing I could accept is 0.2-0.4 Sec more cooldwon

So it doesn't look mentally disabled

[frail bobcat]

There should be actual punishment for missing a pouncd

[neat forge]

There still is

[frail bobcat]

Balance < realism

[opaque beacon]

I agree but its very hard to punish a utah now when they miss the pounce

[dusky surge]

i think you wrote that wrong

[rapid flicker]

Utah should be able to punish pachy when it misses a ram and also the other way around with a pounce. Sad thing is that pounce is not punishable at this point

[neat forge]

It's a Simulator after all
Not very much balanced for Stego to 1 hit me
When you bring up the balanced card

[frail bobcat]

Its like that in germany

[neat forge]

No it's not

[frail bobcat]

I got explained it like that

[neat forge]

I got it explaining the exact opposite

Weird

[opaque beacon]

It is balanced, pure muscle swinging at a staggering speed with thagamizers should kill you if your a utah.

[frail bobcat]

^

[frail bobcat]

Weird

[neat forge]

It should definitely if we talk about realism and stuff
Just wanted to show him because if you talk about balance, it's not very much

[frail bobcat]

About stegos attack onehitting a utah?

[opaque beacon]

Stego one shots utah, deino one shots utah, carno 3 shots utah, So we have every reason to be able to pounce and kill with bleed, The recovery of the pounce should be a little longer. There

[dusky surge]

stego should one-hit you, that makes perfect sense

if it didn't, stego would be trash

[frail bobcat]

Imagine getting some swords rammed into you and you go "tis but a scratch"

[neat forge]

Ye it does
But If you talk about Game balance every One Hit Ability is not "balanced"

[dusky surge]

it is balanced tho

[neat forge]

Ye because its realistic

[dusky surge]

it's a slow moving animal

[opaque beacon]

I believe its the most balenced evrima is right now

[frail bobcat]

It is actually. It can avoided very easy and greater work should pay off

[neat forge]

Facts

[frail bobcat]

Except for the utah thingy, but everything else, yes

[dusky surge]

it's choreographed
you can dodge it
stego can't use it aggressively
it's entirely the aggressor's fault if it dies to it

pretty balanced

[neat forge]

That's why reduced Pounce cooldown is good

[half girder]

meh

[frail bobcat]

Fax

[opaque beacon]

@dusky surge Elexin is trying to explain that if the utah pounce delay would be set to one second it would be not realistic, therefore if thats not realistic why would a stego one shot him, thats all hes saying

[frail bobcat]

If you miss a stego with a pounce, you deserve do die to those thagomizers

[opaque beacon]

Oml all hes saying is if its not realistic for the utah delay than anything else shouldent make sense to be realistic

[frail bobcat]

True, bro is talking about realism on utahs side and is complaining that its getting onehit by stego cause balance lol.

[opaque beacon]

Your misunderstanding

Hes saying theres no point in "realisim" if the utahs delay is not realistic, its either everything realistic or nothing realistic

right @neat forge

[frail bobcat]

But if realism and balance match then it should be like that, but this is not the case on utah

[half girder]

realism is utah getting hammered to the head 3 times by pachy to die

[opaque beacon]

Ok look

[neat forge]

Yep

[half girder]

utah recovers a bit too quick atm

[opaque beacon]

-Utah gets its miss pounce delay to 0.7 seconds, Utahs bleed dammage stays the same, everything else stays the same

[rapid flicker]

Funny how you guys talk about realism when some of the Dino’s didn’t even co-exist in the same timeframe

[alpine plover]

I think this time, they should let the Pounce delay sit for awhile, see how the rest of the roster and players adapt to it

If Pachy or Teno becomes completely invalidated, you can tweak it again.

[rapid flicker]

Its a game. And it should balanced as one

Not because “realism” ….

[obtuse ocean]

Dont think everything gonna be fair, but if you cant fight it you prob can walk/run away unless you didnt pay attention.

[alpine plover]

Realism is a silly argument when we have agile Utah's to begin with
Irl Utah's would break if they moved like the Isle

[opaque beacon]

@lime flax Maybe become insane if thats what you meant

it would make sense

[alpine plover]

Anyways, poutine's video seems alarming

Though that's only theory atm, not applied yet

[opaque beacon]

can u send it to me?

[alpine plover]

Its in balance feedback