balance-feedback-discussion

[hollow canyon]

Yea idk a dino as simple as Carno breaking suddenly would not be a good sign at all.

well in a way it kind of IS broken... just not in the way you want it to be

[old hull]

pretty much yeah

[hollow canyon]

Having said that Carno is probably the third least broken animal in the game

I'd argue that Tenonto is probably the least broken one followed by Stego and then Carno

I'm not counting the likes of Ptera, Hypsi and Dryo but you could probably say that they are less broken than Carno too, idk, I haven't tested these three

[old hull]

yeah carno works , it doesnt win because of bugs its just way overtuned stats combined with for some reason insanely good bleed and the broken af tracking system

[hollow canyon]

Deino, Pachy and Utah - which are all the animals that are reliant on more complex mechanics that can more easily fall apart - are obviously the more broken ones

Carno's stats aren't overtuned and it kind of wins due to bugs actually

like a lot of what this animal can do happens because of bugs

in my experience

bleed and tracking of course have to get fixed, Carno has 0 business bleeding anything

same goes for it tracking, you should cease to exist as far as it's concerned the moment it loses sight of you

[old hull]

basically

i played a bit recently and just knowing that the tracking system exists completely ruins a escape plan of any kind , if you get spotted by a couple of carnos as a quatruped for example you are going to die guaranteed

well unless you are stego or deino but i dont have to explain why those 2 dont care about carno now lol

[hollow canyon]

Well I did survive such situations but it is waaaay too hard compared to how it should be

[old hull]

oh yeah for sure , i managed a few escapes too but not really because of me being smart , it was the carnos being dumb

[hollow canyon]

I was tenonto in such a situation twice and I survived by abusing water

[old hull]

smart

[hollow canyon]

Carnos just handle it very poorly and tbh they shouldn't even be trying to swim after Tenonto since the moment they get to the shore they leave themselves open to just get repeatedly kicked in their dumb pug-like faces

[old hull]

yeah thats a good strat , i got caught out far from water on my latest teno so it did not survive

[hollow canyon]

I rarely ever go far away from water as a tenonto

I guess only when I travel between the western river and the eastern one

along the old shallows area if you know what I mean?

That's pretty much the only time I ever move away from water as a Tenonto, I don't see much point in getting away from it since Tenonto's nutrient plants grow in areas close to water

[old hull]

yeah i gotchu , thats how they caught me , on the way to get nutrients

[hollow canyon]

and the whole migration route is basically running along rivers aside from that one point where shallows are

in terms of balance changes I'd like Carno to have it bleed reduced, tracking gutted and if possible have something that would stop Carno's from overpacking, I believe Carno is an animal that should be mainly played solo considering its niche

Tenonto should just get a stamina cost reduction on both the kick and the tailslam

[old hull]

agreed

[hollow canyon]

although I wouldn't mind removing the stamina cost on the clawswipe altogether while we're there

[old hull]

im not a fan of that new increase turning they got either , i played enough carno before that change and it did just fine without it

[old hull]

100% behind that

[hollow canyon]

I think the turning is perfectly fine

It turns like a bus while running while being reasonably maneuverable while standing in place, that's how it should be

oh also it needs a fix to that goddamn buggy hitbox

it screws over Tenonto really badly and also can affect Utah and Pachy matchups really hard

[old hull]

yup

[hollow canyon]

with those changes I think the match up between Carno and Tenonto would be exactly where it should be

[old hull]

that hitbox has been broken since that dumb pug sausage was added and its never even been adressed

[hollow canyon]

quite heavily in Tenonto's favour

but possible for Carno to win 1v1 if it outplays Tenonto

generally however requiring 2 Carnos to take on a Tenonto successfully

[old hull]

i saw a suggestion floating around about making fractures get worse the more you use that body part and i am 100% for that , cuz i despise the fact that carno with a freaking broken leg can almost outsprint a pachy

[hollow canyon]

it was broken before that from what I know actually

[hollow canyon]

Pachy is a different story altogether I'd throw a bunch of changes at it in general

but there are too many for me to list now as I'm about to get into a game with friends

e.g. I'd remove the stun from its ram against Carno, remove the CC-resistance for Carno after the stun is applied and change the stun into a disarm and prolong its duration

reduce the stamina cost on the ram and its damage

[old hull]

even more? the dmg is already pretty bad

[hollow canyon]

I believe the upper end of Pachy's ram damage is something like 200-250

that's really good for an animal of that size

and I'd like it to be able to throw out far more of those

it currently runs out of stamina way too fast in my opinion

and deals too much damage

the stun is purely cancerous because it's the most easily applied form of hard crowd control in the game which then gets counteracted by the CC resistance that lasts for an absurdly long time

it's just... one issue that gets fixed by something that creates another issue

just do away with the CC resistance and change the CC from hard CC in the form of that stagger to a disarm

Pachy needs something on that attack so that Carno doesn't turn it into minced meat after it gets into the recovery animation after landing the ram

[old hull]

ah i see

[hollow canyon]

so I'd just make Carno unable to bite but still able to move

the disarm would last longer than the stun

allowing Pachy to pack up its things and get the hell out

before Carno can start snapping back at it

[old hull]

thats actually pretty good , i like that idea

as much as i hate carno , that would feel better on their end as well , but still have pachy actually be a threat instead of a free snack like it is rn

[hollow canyon]

I might have to write a proper feedback on all the changes to balance that I'd personally introduce into the game but I'm kind of too lazy and we don't have enough characters in a single message making it impossible for me to fit it all in one message

[hollow canyon]

exactly - it would feel better to play against and it would allow Pachy to get some other buffs that would let it survive better

you'd have more attempts to break a Carno's leg before you run out of stamina

you wouldn't necessarily be killing that Carno lest you have quite a few Pachys with you and you manage to legbreak the Carno or at least bodybreak it

but you should be able to defend yourself quite successfully, more so than now I believe

hard CC is just too overpresent in the game imo

I also thought prior to the update 4.5 that perhaps we shouldn't be nerfing Tenonto's tailslam damage but instead change the CC it applied from stun to snare

meaning that

Carno would be rooted in place unable to run

and unable to attack

but it could still turn around

meaning that Tenonto could punish it upon landing the CC but Carno could try to avoid the slams by moving its head away from the tail making it impossible for Tenonto to just obliterate Carno with a single combo

I wouldn't go with it now tbh

I've already presented what I'd like to see for Tenonto

but that is an option too if we were to up its damage on the tailslam or something

The only animal that I don't have particular thoughts on is Utahraptor

I just... don't know how to balance this thing since its pounce is just so unreliable

[old hull]

i think utah is decent , if the pounce actually worked it would be ok , high dmg no health high agility

[hollow canyon]

Yea but that's a big "if"

[old hull]

but since its a coinflip everytime you pounce its real shitty

[hollow canyon]

yea playing Utahraptor is Evrima's equivalent of playing Russian roulette - you either win or die

[old hull]

hell pachy is almost like that too with a good chunk of your headbutts not actually connecting properly

the so called "ghost hits"

just 2 days ago i had a carno sitting down , i ram it , my head litterally going through his chest and no damage done

even he looked confused cuz it took him a second to stand up lol

[fresh laurel]

Carno punishment is failing to ambush with ram and losing a good amount of stamina...

[fresh laurel]

wdym overpresent

[hollow canyon]

it's way too common

[fresh laurel]

its on 2 animals

[hollow canyon]

that have it each on 2 attacks

[fresh laurel]

At the same time it would make sense

[hollow canyon]

and technically Carno also has hard CC(just really useless one)

[fresh laurel]

How would one reduce cc in the game

While still having it make sense in a way

[calm ibex]

you could have "cc" in a form of just reduced movement speed that would further put you at risk of taking actual hard hitting attacks, just talking about couple seconds of weakness
this way you can still punish someone for making a mistake without removing their ability of playing the game and end up in "perma" stun

[fresh laurel]

Well that would certainly change Utah fights...

[hasty coyote]

There’s like 3 types of bugged rams I have noticed
1: you hit them and hear the sound and lost extra stam, but you just phase through them and they don’t take damage.
2: the same as the first one, but the target gets knocked down and just slides away and gets up while still moving, then nothing happened to them.
3: your ram just decides you’re too close and misses when your head phases through them.

[hollow canyon]

@chrome prairie This video has been spammed back and forth for the past few days, the devs are aware of its existence and you probably shouldn't be tagging Punch for it, the devs read the feedback and it's in bad taste to tag them just to take a look at your feedback specifically. Besides all that - it's just Pesky's opinion, there are issues with what he says there.

[chrome prairie]

My bad

I didnt know it was being spammed 😅

[hollow canyon]

Well... let's just say that it's been the most talked about thing on this discord prior to the stress test starting.

If you scroll up in this channel there's multiple people including QA members and myself discussing what Pesky proposes.

As I said there are problems with what he suggests.

Although I'm saying that mostly just looking at the stats he suggests for all the animals I haven't so far watched the video because it's 40 minutes+ long.

[chrome prairie]

Yeah when i initially watched it i figured there would be some big issues with his ideas since i cant play the isle, ive only watched it for 3 years i have no idea how the flow of the game really works

[hollow canyon]

hmmm some of the things that he proposes have kind of been in the game already

e.g. Stego and Deino having lower hp pools

that was a thing prior to update 3.75 he pretty much asks for a reversal of the changes that occurred there along with an additional buff to Deino's biteforce

which is something completely unnecessary imo, Deino was already winning against Stego more often than not with those stats

that is - without the additional 100N on its biteforce

[mental roost]

…Is it just me, but is isn’t it kind of weird to up stego and deino’s damage( or leave it alone) but reduce their health??

[hollow canyon]

Doing that makes the fight more in Deino's favour

basically

it might seem paradoxical but Deino wants the hp pools of both to be as low as possible and their attack forces to be as high as possible

[chrome prairie]

I think when they add new dinos the balance will begin to smooth out a bit

[hollow canyon]

Deino was winning more often than not when it had 6k health and Stego had 4k health

[mental roost]

It also makes Deino v Deino worse possibly?? Or faster at least

[hollow canyon]

admittedly the locational damage also worked slightly differently at the time

[hollow canyon]

faster, idk about "worse", I have barely any opinion on Deino vs Deino aside from the fact that it's bad and boring like most mirror match ups in Evrima

and also that most people are just bad at Deino

[mental roost]

It’s basically just face tanking, that’s deino v Deino in a nutshell

[hollow canyon]

sort of

there are tiny tricks and some little stuff that can get you to win fights against 90% of Deinos

but the fight itself is just really bad

lack of backwards movement hurts so bad in intraspecific fights between Deinos and Carnos

as in - Deino vs Deino and Carno vs Carno

[mental roost]

Alt bite let’s you sometimes make better trades, so that they bite a less damaging body part and you go for the head,…but not much else.

[hollow canyon]

yea there's a few other things too, most of them to do with the alt bite

but to a large extent it's about to who gets the first bite off

and whether both people know that alt bite exists

[mental roost]

I’ve seen a few stego v stego fights: it’s either a game of battleship or dying on the spot

[hollow canyon]

those are bad too

as I said - intraspecific fights in Evrima are just atrocious with like 2 exceptions

maybe 3

Tenonto vs Tenonto is ok, I've enjoyed it, Utah vs Utah is fine aside from the fact that pounce autowins the fight pretty much

Idk about Pachy vs Pachy, never had that fight

[mental roost]

I imagine it’s basically just stuns and ambushes

[chrome prairie]

If fights between the same species is bad in evrima then what if a stress mechanic was introduced to somewhat stop mixpackers or a sort of rabies like disease or condition to stop people from kosing their own species?

Now this is a big what if but, what if?

[hollow canyon]

There are issues with that too and people could abuse that

It's quite a common suggestion

the problem is that if you let people do something like that you will need the game to be able to tell apart people who are mixpacking from people who are just in the same area

because if it doesn't...

then you will have a few Dryos running around other - larger and slower animals that are unable to catch them, waiting for the debuff to start applying to both the larger animals and to them

who cares that your 30 minutes little Dryo got a debuff if you also put it on a T.rex or a Trike?

[mental roost]

BoB having your dinosaur straight up die because another one is close to it:

Or it did at some point

[chrome prairie]

Dude i suck at typing oml i know what i wanna say but i just can't

Nvm jesus

[mental roost]

Pain

[fresh laurel]

I think I met the worst carno player ever

This Carno player was having trouble killing me in plains....

I had a broken leg...

AND

I was a baby Utah smh

[fresh laurel]

think he buffed the biteforce to scale up with the rest of the roster buffs he had in mind

specifically to one shot pachy

[hollow canyon]

it being buffed like that on top of all the changes he proposed would result in Deino again being the strongest animal in terms of PvP in the game

[fresh laurel]

He says deino vs stego would be bad for both sides...

[hollow canyon]

Stego could maybe challenge it but it would likely be losing more often than not due to all the changes

[fresh laurel]

Just Deino ambushing is a win

[hollow canyon]

Well in this case it would be bad for Stego, not necessarily for Deino

[fresh laurel]

You are forgetting how on land Deino has trouble staying on Stego head

I mean stego facing its backside towards deino as it swipes deino head

[hollow canyon]

I'm not forgetting that at all

Deino would probably be still losing a fight on land

that is - if Deino got caught while on land

but that's a really uncommon occurence

it would also have far better match ups against the whole rest of the roster

[fresh laurel]

I mean it wouldnt encourage land gators again

[hollow canyon]

than Stego would

[fresh laurel]

Since they still would have to worry about stego

[hollow canyon]

irrelevant

nobody is playing land gator anymore

[fresh laurel]

I mean isnt that a issue with buffing deino?

[hollow canyon]

no

[fresh laurel]

It being quite unstoppable on land

[hollow canyon]

you could buff Deinos biteforce to 1k and it wouldn't get any better on land

Deino's trash on land because of the speed nerf

that the devs threw at it back in ~3.75 iirc

Deino prior to that could almost match Stego in speed on land

atm it's a slowpoke that runs out of stamina in seconds

[fresh laurel]

Pretty sure if Deino did 1k per bite that would still be encourage going on land more

[hollow canyon]

it's just a trash animal on land

it wouldn't

it dehydrates in a matter of seconds, you can pretty much visibly see it losing water with a naked eye

it's also so pathetically slow that it's completely incapable of anything on land

[fresh laurel]

I mean it would make it not scared of leaving the water to fight bigger things

[hollow canyon]

doesn't matter

if Deino gets far enough from the water you could kill it with a pair of Tenontos

[fresh laurel]

Deino should be screwed if its caught pretty far from water (and im talking about it being vulnerable to land predators)

Anyways back to Pesky Deino vs Stego...

[hollow canyon]

it's not the predators that Deino fears

[fresh laurel]

Wouldnt that change make Stegos have fear of drinking?

And again make Deinos think twice about how they go fight Stegos

[hollow canyon]

the issue for Deino is that if it gets caught on land far away from the water even a single Carno or Tenonto can actually kill it, you just need to make it engage you enough to the point where it starts dehydrating, it's all about slowing it down

[hollow canyon]

I wouldn't be thinking twice about going fighting Stegos

I'd attack them on sight as soon as they got close enough to water with those changes

[fresh laurel]

Im saying it would encourage deinos going for the ambush more often against Stego

not like haha follow Stego to land a bit to try and kill it

[hollow canyon]

I mean I don't know how I can explain it in a more simple way - those changes would greatly favour Deino

Deino would likely be winning a fight against Stego

you obviously wouldn't he running a Stego down on land

because you're too slow to do that

but other than that Deino>Stego

[fresh laurel]

The changes would still help Stego if it were to encounter a land Deino

[hollow canyon]

why do you keep on mentioning land deino?

Such thing doesn't exist in the game

[fresh laurel]

It kinda is

[hollow canyon]

it literally cannot

[fresh laurel]

I mean did you see update 3?

Deino had no worries on land when they learned alt bite took no stam

[mental roost]

To be fair.. we're no longer in Update 3

[hollow canyon]

Yes, have you missed the part where I mentioned that Deino's water drain was increased since then and that it's speed was nerfed?

We are NOT in update 3

[fresh laurel]

To be fair Deino has been adjusted since then

[mental roost]

To be fair that is correct

[fresh laurel]

To be fair indeed

[hollow canyon]

Yes, it has been adjusted

Grow a Deino and try to play it on land right now

Stegos will be the least of your worries

[fresh laurel]

So this change would only help Deino for water ambushing...?

[hollow canyon]

you will literally die of dehydration

[tall bronze]

The water drain is kinda comical to me.

[hollow canyon]

^

It absolutely is

[tall bronze]

Like I get it dehydrates fast but s h e e s h this feels like someone who HATES Deino spite-nerfed them 😛

[fresh laurel]

I mean I grew a deino this update

[mental roost]

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/WarpedLazyAmericanavocet-max-1mb.gif

[hollow canyon]

Good, then take it in land and do tell me how that goes

[fresh laurel]

Didnt seem unreasonable

[mental roost]

^Deino

[fresh laurel]

Went ok as long as I kept kinda near water

[hollow canyon]

Alright, let me put it this way - try to walk on land across the whole shallows and tell me how that goes

[fresh laurel]

When I say land Deino I dont mean explore the map on land

[hollow canyon]

You can let me know how far you got before you died

[fresh laurel]

Funny thing is... Dont know where shallows is :D

[hollow canyon]

It's that "dry river" in the north of the map

it used to be covered by water

prior to the latest map changes

[fresh laurel]

been a while since I seen shallows mate

I know its gone though

Just dont exactly know how to reach it anymore XD

[hollow canyon]

Yes, it's gone that's why I'm saying - try to make that trek with Deino and tell me how that goes for you

You just swim up the western or eastern river

[fresh laurel]

Thats not what I meant when I say Deino being on land-

[hollow canyon]

Eastern one splits into two rivers one of which goes towards "shallows"

[fresh laurel]

Im saying Deino that arent afraid to stay out of water

[hollow canyon]

there's no such thing

as Deino that isn't afraid of staying out of water

that's what I'm telling you

Deino is completely unviable on land

[fresh laurel]

Stego makes Deino not stay on land all the time

[fresh laurel]

if it isnt near water yea

[hollow canyon]

It's not just that

Deino is just completely useless on land, it's too slow to catch anything

[fresh laurel]

Deino can be good at stealing foods from other things thats for sure

[hollow canyon]

has too little stamina

can get killed by terrestrial animals smaller than itself

[fresh laurel]

You word it like I never played Deino

If Deino is far inland it will die

[hollow canyon]

You can clap one with a Tenonto if you're good enough

Carno has it a bit harder and I don't think it'd be possible to 1v1 a Deino on land as Carno unless it was really far from water

[fresh laurel]

eh

[hollow canyon]

but 2v1 yea Carnos could clap it

[fresh laurel]

I doubt that part if the deino has a brain

[hollow canyon]

You can doubt it all you want, if Tenonto is good it will kill that Deino eventually

it outranges Deino and can attack it with Deino being unable to retaliate

[fresh laurel]

I doubt it because if Deino actually knows when to attack it will clap

[hollow canyon]

of course it takes quite a bit of skill

[fresh laurel]

Deino bite man

[hollow canyon]

I wouldn't be able to pull it off but there are better Tenonto players than me

[fresh laurel]

hurts

[fresh laurel]

just like there are the rare few deino players that know how to use alt bite

[hollow canyon]

that's just absurdly wrong

there are few deino players that don't know how to use alt bite

[fresh laurel]

Im saying that know how to time hits to catch people properly

[hollow canyon]

knowing how to use alt bite is nowhere near comparable to being good enough with Tenonto to pull of a fight against Deino where you attack it without it retaliating

[fresh laurel]

how many slams can teno do?

[hollow canyon]

10

[fresh laurel]

and kicks

[hollow canyon]

14

[fresh laurel]

Dont think Teno is killing deino with that few

[hollow canyon]

kicks are irrelevant, you aren't kicking a Deino unless you want to get sent to character screen

You're not limited to using 10 slams

You do regenerate your stamina as fight goes on

[fresh laurel]

slowly

[hollow canyon]

Not that slowly, you will kill Deino if the fight goes on long enough if you're really good with Teno

[fresh laurel]

You use all your slam stamina...

think you are screwed

[hollow canyon]

Why would you ever use all your stamina... wat?

[fresh laurel]

I think it comes down to how bad Deino is at that point

[hollow canyon]

I mean... yea

if it's a land Deino it's automatically a bad Deino

[fresh laurel]

You said slams are the only safe way to attack deino

[hollow canyon]

because Deino is trash on land

[hollow canyon]

Yes, that doesn't mean you just spam the slam until you run out of stamina

You should never run out of stam during a fight like that

[fresh laurel]

Deino may be trash but again.... It has that good alt bite turn and Teno has quite the tail to bite

[hollow canyon]

you're the one that controls the pace

you're the one that decides whether the confrontation happens

[fresh laurel]

I would have to see a teno kill a deino player with a brain to believe this

[mental roost]

8000 health is quite a bit to get through. Couldn't Deino just scavenge some corpse nearby and head back into the water to call it a done deal? Deino's once hitting a certain size can't be stunned so...-shrug-

[hollow canyon]

Of course it can

if it's close to water you're not killing it

but that isn't a land Deino

[fresh laurel]

It could but I think the convo turned into teno vs deino on land

[hollow canyon]

I can survive a Stego just fine if I'm close to water

Matter of fact I did survive Stego attacks as Deino while being on land

but again - I wasn't playing land Deino

[fresh laurel]

probably because it hit your tail?

[hollow canyon]

No, because I wasn't try to take a trek across half the map on land

because Deino is utter trash at that

Idk why you're somehow fixated on buffs to Deino being a problem because they will somehow enable Deinos to go on land

they won't - that's not the issue with buffing Deino

[fresh laurel]

I said so many times how thats not what I mean but it seems you are ignoring that

[fresh laurel]

it lets Deino be less vulnerable on land is what I mean
That would also make it more comfortable on land

[hollow canyon]

Yes I am, because if you're describing a Deino that's 10 metres from water as a "land Deino" then you have a very weird definition of a land Deino

[hollow canyon]

it doesn't and it wouldn't

Idk how I can explain it more easily - Deino's problem on land isn't the biteforce

it's the fact that it's pathetically slow and dies of dehydration in no time

you aren't killing anything on land after the changes that Deino received

unless some halfwit Utah runs straight into your jaws

what Pesky's changes would bring back is this:

Deino just clapping Stego whenever it sees one drinking

Deino should NOT have a winning match up against literally every animal in the game

while also oneshotting all of them but one

that's just stupid

the fact that it would still be unable to do anything on land is largely irrelevant to the fact that it would still be the most overpowered thing in the game... again

[mental roost]

I remember back then, sometimes people would praise Stegos for kicking the shit out of Deinos.
How times change.

[hollow canyon]

Tbh even at the time it seemed to me like most people thought Stego was winning that fight

but to a large extent it was caused by the fact that most people couldn't(and they still can't) play Deino

I remember seeing two adult Deinos sitting in the water thinking about whether they should try to fight a Stego that was just chilling on the bank, I just swam up to it and killed it before they made up their minds

[fresh laurel]

how did you kill it exactly?...

wouldnt it just turn around

[mental roost]

Deino could also bite stego's head through its dummy thicc ass cheeks somehow during that time. Strange and creates a horrifying mental image.

[hollow canyon]

Stego had just 4k hp at the time, you could nuke it VERY fast

[fresh laurel]

oh you mean that time

[hollow canyon]

yes

the time that Pesky wants to bring back

[fresh laurel]

I just spammed alt bite since no stam cost lol

[hollow canyon]

he wants to reduce the hp pools of both animals

[hollow canyon]

I mean as broken as no stam cost alt bite was - it wasn't the reason why Deino was winning

if that was the only thing that got changed Deino would still be dumpstering Stego right now

[fresh laurel]

so whats stopping deino killing stego now?

[hollow canyon]

you didn't even need 10 bites to kill a Stego

[fresh laurel]

You would think with deino 8k hp it would have a ball park of a time

[hollow canyon]

higher health pools of both and changes to locational damage

[hollow canyon]

no lol

Deino's situation gets worse the higher the health pools get

[fresh laurel]

what was wrong with old locational damage

[hollow canyon]

if the devs were to give Deino 10k hp and Stego 8k hp Stego would be winning even easier than now

[hollow canyon]

the fact that you could bite the head without biting the head

[mental roost]

Stego is a DPS machine with its flank swings.. that and well: its rear can take more of a beating.

[fresh laurel]

probably because just a 2k hp difference while stego does over 1k?

[hollow canyon]

The difference isn't that important

what's important is how much hp you have to melt through

look

Deino is typically the animal that gets to choose whether the fight takes place, it has the initiative as it can swim away from Stego if it so wishes, Stego has to drink however

when you get the advantage you can actually start dishing out the damage faster than Stego which now has to retaliate

Stego's dps is lower if it has to readjust its position

and it's much lower

its attack rate varies between 1.6sec and 1.1sec depending on how it's positioned

if you attack it not from the side it will take more time to respond allowing you to land more bites

if you have to make your way through just 4k hp

you can do it much easier than having to cut through 6k hp

the larger the health pools the bigger the advantage of the animal with the higher dps

[fresh laurel]

so does deino have any chance now?

[hollow canyon]

at 4kvs6k Stego is to a large extent unable to make up for the initial damage burst and the health advantage that Deino has

in a 6kvs8k scenario Stego has enough health to just let its absurd dps do the magic and kill Deino even if Deino gets the first attack and has more hp

[hollow canyon]

Yes but they are very small 1v1

Deinos clap Stego 2v1 if Stego is dumb enough to fight them

assuming Deinos are controlled by players with hands

[fresh laurel]

how would a deino go about fighting stego now?

[hollow canyon]

1v1 I've won against Stego just once

[hollow canyon]

I abused bugs

[fresh laurel]

what bugs-

[hollow canyon]

made Deino clip into Stego and underneath it

which kept my head safe from Stego's tailjabs

[fresh laurel]

how would one do that lmao

[hollow canyon]

idk it just sometimes happens

I've heard it was a thing

a friend told me about it and I've managed to pull it off once

I did die like 3 other times though

In general - Deino vs Stego is nowhere near as bad for Deino as people make it out to be

it's just that most Deino players are absolutely atrocious at the game and have no idea what they're doing

case and point - here's a picture of 2 Deinos running away from me

this fight started when I was already hurt after killing another Deino when these two guys came over

Deino players are just bad

[fresh laurel]

Im sorry but huh?

they are running even as 2 deinos

[hollow canyon]

yea

one of them almost died and the other one got pretty badly hurt and they decided to run for it

[mental roost]

How can someone be so bad at a playable that's so fucking straight forward not counting lunge sometimes goofing up.

[hollow canyon]

they were just bad

this one I've killed when I wasn't even fully grown

I was like 93% grown I think

still killed him

[fresh laurel]

tbf stego prob has the best damage scaling with growth

[mental roost]

Can the fact that so many deino players are bad is the same reason as carno players? There's just so many of them that it inflates the amount of them?

[hollow canyon]

every animal has just about the same scaling

[fresh laurel]

I met a carno player that failed to kill me as a broken legged baby utah

they were full grown (somehow)

[hollow canyon]

Idk, I know that I wouldn't be able to do any of that as a Carno

there's no way I could 1v2 other Carnos

or kill a fully grown one as a 93% grown Carno

most people that play Deino are just really, really bad at the game from what I observed

this animal is also absurdly easy to grow

probably the easiest growth in the game in all the honesty

it's just... really long and boring?

I will admit I was hesitant to play Deino after update 4 came out, I thought it would be quite hard to grow and probably not that good

then I'd tried and found out I couldn't have been more wrong

absurdly easy growth coupled with enormous firepower and tankiness, the only bad things about this animal are the abysmal dehydration rate and that pathetic running speed

[quick latch]

@pallid igloo I believe that burrow is already planning to be added back for dryo but a revamped version

[dawn kindle]

MY TAKE ON BALANCING disclaimer, I have not played stego, dryo, deino, pachy as much as other dinosaurs. I see a lot of videos and comments about balancing and that some dinosaurs are too "tanky". This whole issue is one brought up because people see evrima like legacy too much. If you are a ex. utah you will only be lucky 1v1 against carno. Every dino should not be able to have a good chance at killing the other. It is pure survival you have to run from a lot of fights. Or maybe come back with numbers or avoid certain high traffic areas. Use foliage and jungle areas to hide and plan your next meal. No need for equal dmg or spd, or having more buffs and nerfs. just adds more cases of abused abilites and constant updates.

[old hull]

the reason for carno and deino players to be pretty dumb is not that hard to understand , their dinos are so easy to grow , and you can make countless mistakes in fights and barely get punished , that and not only are those 2 dinos very competent on their own they are straight up broken in large numbers

carno especially can still be played like a complete baffoon and still survive most encounters by just running off

and as much as carnos whine and bitch about tenos "stun locking" them , teno still cant straight up kill a carno by nailing a perfect stun and multiple headshots , you can just run off

[wheat ridge]

i barely see tenos anymore, he feels like a walking happy meal, its good against utahs and thats about it, carnos can just run up to it because carno is way faster and kill it in a facetank even if the teno can get a stun of, it will lose in a fight and it cant run away, nice balance, if every herbi gets gutted like them then they will be 90% carni populations in the future just like in legacy

[somber sphinx]

use kick not tail-slam. the kick is mutch stronger than the tail slam and its now used for stunning the carno. Teno is really good rn if u know how to play it and if u die due to a carno facetanking u then thats your own fault

the only problem with carno rn is that there`s too many of them. And yeah they need to nref its turning

[wheat ridge]

dude even with a tail slam and then spamming kick it facetanks you to death

[somber sphinx]

litterally how

[wheat ridge]

because stamina, you cant kick it to death

i wouldnt mind it if you can at least run away from it

but losing in both is pretty bad balance

[hasty coyote]

That’s kinda the issue with carno atm, it needs to be both stronger than it’s prey and the fastest thing in the game.
But from what I have seen, tenos can kill carnos if they play it well. Granted, it takes like 5x more skill to play teno, but a good teno can juke a carno ram, hit a tail slam mid-charge and stun the carno, and then kick it. So it isn’t free food, the main issues are tail slam’s cost and pachy hits have priority over teno’s.

Teno is mainly about knowing when to attack and which attacks to use to make sure you don’t run out of stam.

[azure crescent]

it takes 6 kicks to the body of a carno to kill it. you absolutely can kill a carno with kicks

and 4 to the head

[dusky surge]

@last nest stego has absolutely no bleed resist. The only animal that does have bleed resist in the game is deinosuchus

[last nest]

certainly doesnt feel that way lol

[hollow canyon]

it can't do that anymore

it used to be capable of pulling that off previously, I've done it myself

[hollow canyon]

it doesn't have bleed resistance, it simply has a very large blood pool

Also, Lyskir - if you're getting facetanked by a Carno as Tenonto then you're doing something very, very wrong with that Tenonto

last Carno that tried to facetank my Teno, most are not quite stupid enough to even try:

[hollow canyon]

I really question whether we play the same game ngl

Tenonto could use some minor buffs, some quality of life improvements but by most metrics it is exactly where it should be, its match up with Carno needs but a few tiny changes to be where it's meant to be

@last nest

Tenonto's hitboxes are probably the best and most reliable hitboxes in the game. It's pretty much the only animal that I haven't seen land hits when it shouldn't have hit its opponent.

The reason why you sometimes land kicks and tailslams without stunning your target is that the last update changed how CC is applied in the game - hits that land on your tail will not cause you to get stunned anymore. That's also why Carno's charge does not knock Tenonto down upon hitting its tail.

I agree with lowering the stam cost on both the tail slam and the kick. They both cost too much the tailslam should remain as the more costly option for various reasons though.

[last nest]

I've had a few problems with hitboxes not registering, but it definitely isn't as bad as some of the other dinos and it was just from my personal experience. The stuns not registering, that i noticed, was from a fight with a larger group and I kicked a carno in the face and the stun didn't apply. However the carno was like in my tenos tail attempting to facetank a few hits so there is a possiblity maybe that it registered as a tail hit but idk

[hollow canyon]

I've tested Tenonto's hitbox quite extensively and it pretty much always landed when it should have during the tests

unlike literally all the other animals

that offer you some nonsense like this:

Tenonto sometimes might just seem like it has bad hitboxes because it's the only one that doesn't have extended attack sockets like seemingly all the other creatures

Carno and Stego are probably the most guilty of this

with Deino being closely behind them

Pachy has a scuffed hitbox on its ram too

it doesn't even register if you use it at point blank

you have to release it before you get to your opponent otherwise it's like hitting the air even though Pachy runs into its target

As for Stego I think it's more or less where it should be, the only really questionable match up it has is vs Utah imo but that's due to Utah's buggy pounce, in normal circumstances a Utah pack should be the main threat to Stego

Deino should perhaps have a slightly better chance in a fight against Stego too but I'm not all that convinced to that

[last nest]

might be lag then. Lag might have caused a delay that it didnt't hit It was on a free grows server and they dont have the most reliable fps. Either that or i missed somehow
¯_(ツ)_/¯

[hollow canyon]

yea unfortunately there's quite a few things that can cause hits not too land

so any judgement on them has to be passed after testing them multiple times in a controlled environment

[last nest]

yeahh, i would appreciate it if they took another look at Teno's hitboxes but i also understand that there are other issues that need more attention atm-

[hollow canyon]

I'd honestly rather have them take a look at the hitboxes of all the other animals

Tenonto specifically gets screwed over by Carno's ridiculous bite socket because it can sometimes bite you from outside of the range of your kick

it's all the others that need to have their hitboxes fixed and brought in line with Teno

rather than the other way around

from what I've heard all the bites are bugged like that btw

it's some internal issue that might take quite a bit of effort to fix

I also wouldn't be opposed to increasing Teno's kick hitbox but it would require them to change the animation

because as it is it actually does land when it should from everything that I've seen so far

[fresh laurel]

tbf Teno tail has quite the hurtbox which is just a free hit for almost anything if Teno decides to use kick

[hollow canyon]

yes that's exactly why the cost of the tailslam has to go down

[fresh laurel]

yup

[hollow canyon]

well one of the reasons

Tenonto needs to be able to use that attack comfortably even just to protect its tail

[fresh laurel]

Tail slam being nerfed in damage while not getting less stamina cost is a bad unfair

[hollow canyon]

yea it is... and we've already had that discussion and I said it back in October that the cost of the tailslam has to go down if the damage gets lowered

I mean in general there shouldn't be that many attacks that have such a high stamina cost

[fresh laurel]

Unless said attacks have great rewards

[hollow canyon]

10% is an absurdly high cost for anything

[fresh laurel]

POV. Utah pounce

[naive raven]

omfg someone jsut told me stegos are getting another dmg buff on their tail swing, is it true?

[golden coral]

I doubt that, there's no reason for that far as I know, unless other things also change somehow

Could be someone talking about what might happen when rex and others are in the game possibly, at that time it might make more sense

[fresh laurel]

how heavy was legacy rex and giga?

[hollow canyon]

5800kg Rex and 6450kg Giga

iirc

[fresh laurel]

that means... dang deino still heavy boi

and our deino is undersized?? yeesh

[hollow canyon]

weights in legacy are irrelevant to the weights in Evrima

you can't translate them like that

for starters weights were NOT equal to hp pools in legacy unlike what most people thought

secondly Rex and Giga that we see in legacy would both be much heavier than that

their weights were lowered on purpose because of how weight calculations worked in legacy

Rex and Giga at their irl(or even just sensible weights considering their in game sizes) weights would be pretty much unstoppable in legacy due to how weight affected combat

[tiny salmon]

people who disagree with nerfing stegos are braindead lol

[fresh laurel]

I just want it to for now have lower blood pool so raptors actually try fighting it more

I mean even then the diet system doesnt reward huge kills like stego since you only get one freaking nutrient from each thing

[tiny salmon]

Your still only solving problems for one of the many playables... which is lowering the amount of "health" or blood the stego has , which litterally plays into utahs niche and utahs only.

[slim dragon]

Utah is the only playable supposed to threaten stego tho
Carno, deino and ptera have no business trying to hunt one

[fresh laurel]

I mean we only have 2 proper land built carnivores lol and carno shouldnt be bothering to kill stegos

Utah packs rn dont exactly bother killings stego much do to the amount of effort and risk with such low reward that is one nutrient with food...

Like why kill stego when you could go for the easier herbivores

[odd pebble]

Make use of terrain like rocks and stuff and get better at managing your stam.

Like, i managed to 1v3 carnos and win that way

[tiny salmon]

So the point here is "carno deino and ptera dont matter because practically and realistically they shouldnt be hunting stego" seems pretty silly to me. Your not even taking into account the over agro deino-fisher stegos who literally camp riverbanks in squads.

[golden coral]

There are other, potentially better, solutions to the deino fishing issue than nerfing stegos, so there is that.

[dusky surge]

there's already a solution to deino fishing. Any adult deino can either swim below the tail or tank a hit and keep swimming

[slim dragon]

Nerfing stegos so they can't fish for deinos=allow deinos to go on land without being punished
Allowing that is worse than having stegos being "op"

[dusky surge]

You don't need to kill the stego to make the issue go away

You can ignore them

Also yea, unpunished deino way worse than unpunished stego

deino has more health, more bleed resist, amazing aquatic mobility and the safest environment

[alpine plover]

who the hell say that the dam must gone ? its the only safe plc for herbivores , in open field we all died. ?!

[golden coral]

What?

[fresh laurel]

First off... If a Stego is dying to ptera it should just uninstall.
Secondly the blood health nerf to Stego would technically make killing Stego easier for not just Utah but also Carno and Deino since they can already do some noticeable bleed.
Third Stego fishing Deino on river edges can just be avoided... I mean you dont have to fight Stego as Deino

[fresh laurel]

How far would a Deino get on land to become a concern

[slim dragon]

It's not a matter of distance if there's nothing to stop it

[fresh laurel]

I mean Deino with Stego or not would be forced to return to water and stay close

[slim dragon]

Well, not much more than any other dino
What's their thirst timer ? 10 mins ? 20 mins ? That's more than enough to be absolutely oppressive on land, with no possibility of competition from other playables
Also deinos are'nt afraid to wait the last second to get back to water since they don't risk being drowned by a deino, or killed by anything

[fresh laurel]

Pretty sure its not 20 mins though I would have to check

Just dont think Deino would get far enough as its thirst stands now to be ecosystem or just game changing

Heck even possibly changing how Deinos get their nutrients would also help

[slim dragon]

Even if deino can't go far on land, every dino has to live rather close to water, so it doesn't really matter
It's just that instead of getting ambushed when trying to go for water, you see a giant croc going out of it and chasing your for 10 minutes with no other choice than to run away

[fresh laurel]

chasing you...?

[slim dragon]

At least with steogs, deinos run the risk of encountering one when on land and dying like idiots
Any big animal would do the trick, but for now we only have stego doing this job

[fresh laurel]

Deino runs out of stamina hella quick and has probably the worst speed in the game

[slim dragon]

tracking

[fresh laurel]

It wouldnt be worth a deino player time to try tracking you on land...

I mean how would that even go?

[slim dragon]

Like when anything else tracks something down ? They risk nothing anyway, so why wouldn't they do it ?

[fresh laurel]

It again cant leave a river range for that long and again isnt exactly meant for land travel

[fresh laurel]

except the other playables who actually bother trackings things have the locomotion of land to do so properly?

[slim dragon]

You underestimate the distance one can travel in the span of 10 minutes

[fresh laurel]

You forget how slow Deino is

And if Deino bothers going that far inland it would probably be screwed to more of the land playables

[slim dragon]

Why would they care about locomotion ? They'd be immortal anyways
Also what about stegos ? deino isn't slower than a stego, and if it's stronger... it becomes a eat grass and die situation for stego

[fresh laurel]

Mate Deino already is pretty screwed if they leave a certain range away from a near by water source

[slim dragon]

And which ones ? Carnos can't use charge against deinos because they're too big, and they get vastly outdamaged in a facetanking contest
Utahs ? Deino has the highest blood pool in the game AND a 50% bleed resistance

[fresh laurel]

Im talking when more of the roster comes

[slim dragon]

When more of the roster comes a stego nerf won't be necessary anymore

[fresh laurel]

I mean isnt that what some of the balance is based on? How it can function in the future ecosystem

[slim dragon]

If there's something that can kill a deino, it can probably kill a stego too

[fresh laurel]

I mean my opinion on nerfing Stego blood health is a short term option to encourage hunts of it more by raptor packs

[fresh laurel]

Depends on if Stego is changed to be properly suited to deal with more things

[slim dragon]

What about fixing pounce instead ?

[fresh laurel]

I mean if Rex keeps its legacy bite force and manages to head shot stego...

[fresh laurel]

Would help but then again, theres not much reward for the risks

And with how most raptors struggle with even dismounting safely...

I just think Utahs need a bit more pros for killing such large prey for the risks, you know?

[slim dragon]

I would rather see the pounce fixed, see how it works out and then have the devs make more adjustments if necessary

But killing a stego shouldn't be an easy feat for a pack of raptors either

[fresh laurel]

Just want it to be encouraged more

[hollow canyon]

Oh no... not the "fishing" Stegos... what could I ever do about them... if only I could idk... swim in the opposite direction! But no, there's some weird magnetic force that attracts me to their thagomizer

On a serious note - idk about fishing Stegos, 2 Deinos can still kill one relatively safely as long as they know what they're doing.

[old hull]

b-b-but i wanna facetank the stego and win , why cant i do it devs whyyyyy 👶

[mental roost]

No thoughts, head empty. Only gator.

[old hull]

no brain only chompa

[somber sphinx]

Big gator big chompa

[golden coral]

@icy drift Ah yes, but this is a game, and if you make something unviable solo, you're not going to get herds/packs of it in the first place. It's a terrible idea to make herbis reliant on groups to even survive. And no, it's the carnis job to outwit the herbi, they have to be the smarter ones. Also, deino is designed to grab and drown, not to use bite. This means you're going to be a bit more limited in what you can hunt, since too large prey is ungrabbable. On the other hand, anything you can grab, just dies. Deino is an apex, yes, but not neccesarily one designed to fight other apexes.

Also, making apex predators being able to have an advantage over average herbis... do you want a bunch of rexes and gigas roaming around, cause they can just survive without much effort?

[hasty coyote]

@icy drift I have a few issues with your argument, mainly the “just herd up”and “herbies are over aggro”.
Just herd up doesn’t work for these reasons: #balance-feedback message
And these herbies are people, carnis will hunt for sport and so will herbies. The main issue is that there’s only combat and there’s no reason to not fight.

Lastly, the balance of this game is “Can’t fight? Run. Can’t run? Fight.” If a Dino can do neither, then no one will play them because being spotted is death.

[night geyser]

Do what he says and you’ll be fine 👍

[fresh laurel]

aw shit here we go again

[golden coral]

I have to say, that might be very close to an actual "eat grass and die" that I've ever seen :p

[fresh laurel]

oh link gone alr

[hasty coyote]

Yeah that pesky video doesn’t solve everything, tracking and fractures are pachy’s main issues and he doesn’t address either

[night geyser]

Ngl kinda sus

[hasty coyote]

I want more mechanic changes rather than just changing numbers

[fresh laurel]

wdym sus

[night geyser]

His topic was stats

[night geyser]

Becaus he don’t have it good with the devs becaus of the anky thing

[hasty coyote]

Still doesn’t make everything “fine”

[fresh laurel]

I would argue the anky thing wasnt his fault 100% but I digress

[night geyser]

He specific,y said that he wasent targeting any admens but they took a fence anyway

Multiple times he said it actually

[golden coral]

His stat changes don't make all that much sense anyway, and there are other issues that needs proper reworks if anything

[night geyser]

Idrc

[fresh laurel]

Man I just want Utah bite to actually be worth using

[stark knoll]

If you have actual opinions or comments related to the video, you can share them. But simply posting the video link isn't permitted outside of #videos-and-streams

[night geyser]

Nvm that’s not why it was removed

I just realized that befor you said it

[hasty coyote]

I think they should just up the bleed on it, but I would wait until AFTER they fix pounce to balance utah much. You don’t want to make its main ability work and then realize it’s overtuned after you also buffed them.

Kinda what happened with carno now

[fresh laurel]

Sad how most Utah players die thanks to them trying to dismount at times heh

[night geyser]

So tell me if I’m correct big Dino’s super stronk smaller ones rly weak and need buffed

[hasty coyote]

They gutted its main issues: megapacks at oasis and overtuned herbies. Then buffed it too.

[hasty coyote]

More like we don’t have a mid tier (other than the small game hunter carno) and they don’t have any competition or predators.

[lament cloak]

@icy drift what if i argue that this is a video game and forcing players to form groups just to stay alive is horrible balancing. even taking real life into the equation, its the carnivores that are using the strategies to take down their prey because they are at a disadvantage nearly every time

[fresh laurel]

but they made another oasis...

💀

[tranquil pawn]

but without the flaws of old oasis

[night geyser]

Small game? It’s perfect for hunting tenonto weird how that’s not in its diet
(Last I checked)

[fresh laurel]

True but the fact that we still have a new oasis kinda hurts

[tranquil pawn]

[night geyser]

Oh and stego in it’s diet
(Last I checked)

[hasty coyote]

They didn’t make it, it’s basically always been there. This is why I want them to make their own hotspots to balance them.

[fresh laurel]

wait that was always there?

thought they edited that area

[night geyser]

Or or

Not care about the hotspot probly e caus that’s not the biggest problem

[hasty coyote]

If you mean dam and NW, basically yeah. Just put some diets there.

[night geyser]

Or make a stress system

[fresh laurel]

Hey guys what if we added more lakes and ponds

[hasty coyote]

And cleared some trees

[fresh laurel]

HELL TO THE NAH TO THE NO TO THE NOOOO

[hasty coyote]

They need to make like 5 at once

[night geyser]

Wasent the idea gonna be added during the legacy time

Befor evrima

[fresh laurel]

Dont think we should have a stress system bruh

Thats just so abusable

[night geyser]

I mean ya already got diets that screw you over growth wise if you don’t applie to them

[fresh laurel]

growth and diets shouldnt be intertwined imo

[night geyser]

So it’s kinda already in

[fresh laurel]

diets should feel more optional but thanks to it involving growth... yea you really need to follow diets

[hasty coyote]

That’s an issue with the diet system. My issue is that carno is the fastest thing in the game, so how it it supposed to be able to kill things it’s size and larger while also being faster? Especially when carno needs to be able to fail a hunt against anything smaller or it just bullies everything.

[night geyser]

Like I said stress system would be the same any way we already got it kinda

I mean diet is just part of stress thingy

[night geyser]

Heeeey geuss what pesky video

[fresh laurel]

Reduce Carno running turn radius more simple

[night geyser]

Ppl gonna hate that

[hasty coyote]

Diet is tied to environment, stress is tied to players. The environment can’t abuse the system, players can.

[night geyser]

Also it’s men to hunt things it’s size and SMALLER

[night geyser]

The diet is tied other players

So the both tied to the player

[fresh laurel]

can we like make diets less restrictive...?

[night geyser]

Aparently not

[fresh laurel]

I mean meat types at least for carnivores?

herbivores Im not too sure on how to fix their diet issue

[hasty coyote]

And that’s exactly why carni diet is flawed atm. Not saying carni diet should be tied to environment either.

[night geyser]

There’s different types of plants idk

[night geyser]

It kinda is with the bots it’s tied to players and the environment

[hasty coyote]

Plant types, different spawn locations, biome specific pet species.

[fresh laurel]

pet species?

[hasty coyote]

Per. Damn autocorrect

[fresh laurel]

oh XD

What if the nutrient bar was percent base

[night geyser]

Isint it?

[fresh laurel]

like low on nutrients would give smaller buffs

having the bar be full gives the highest buffs currently ingame

[night geyser]

So eat your vegetables and youLl become a Chad

[fresh laurel]

I was thinking like almost everything gives you nutrients but if you eat thinks on your diet you get a bigger nutrient gain

[icy drift]

You're free and well to argue that. That's the point of this.

[hasty coyote]

me chugging coconuts to 300% to get perfect diet

[fresh laurel]

throws up before bar gets to 300% 💀

[night geyser]

Oh no you can’t be Chad

[hasty coyote]

You underestimate my power

[fresh laurel]

I mean if you guys want I have a whole idea on how the diet system could work

[hollow canyon]

I honestly have a feeling that most people severely underestimate just how durable living organisms are.

[fresh laurel]

wdym

[night geyser]

Yes plz

[fresh laurel]

bet

[night geyser]

Ppl think dog get in fire dog die nope

[fresh laurel]

#general-feedback-discussion message

[icy drift]

To counter you. It's listed as horror/ survival, right? If so, you're looking to survive. Not fight, because it's fun.

Call of Duty was ruined because it started pulling in too many playstyles from games like HALO. Faster, more ridiculous "perks"and movement. Still a fun game. Still plenty of fans.

Shaping the game to encourage people to body guard as a Stego just to be "rude" to carnivores because "they can" is absurd to me.

[night geyser]

The horror is you lose 5 hours of your life becaus you were afk as a deino for five minutes

[icy drift]

Or even just a few moments.

[fresh laurel]

Man I just want people to take this game more seriously

I remember showing my cousin this game before evrima came out and he said it looked cartoony 💀

[icy drift]

I agree. It's not an arcade game. It isn't made for everyone.

[hollow canyon]

ez fix, you can get another one for being afk for another 5 hours

[fresh laurel]

The Isle, become a no life

[golden coral]

I would agree, fighting should be done out of need, not want. But that goes for both herbis and carnis, and have nothing to do with making herbis "meals on wheels", but should be handled by other mechanics if anything.

[hollow canyon]

Also - I totally agree with that, Deino's water decay is just absurd, you leave it for a moment and it just dies

[fresh laurel]

Just try to explain to someone how you spend your time growing a funny gator for 5 hours only to lose it in 10 minutes

[icy drift]

I hear that. I don't personally attack without provocation or need for food.

[hollow canyon]

I mean... I technically don't "spend" that time growing Deino, I do other, more useful stuff like reading something, studying or watching some stuff, I'm not insane enough to just look at my Deino sitting in the water for 5 hours.

[fresh laurel]

name someone who grew an apex playable without multitasking

Not many people are that crazy

[hollow canyon]

I did actually, the first time I was growing a Deino I grew it by playing it actively

[fresh laurel]

was it fun?

[hollow canyon]

the funny thing is I killed half a dozen of people before even making it to full adult

[hollow canyon]

actually... yea but risky

if I got spotted by an adult Deino I would've just died

not worth the risk, it's better to afk

[icy drift]

On official, adult Deinos are the biggest enemies to other Deinos. Guess you could call it being Territorial

[fresh laurel]

I think all babies ingame need a bit more tools to not just die if their adult wants them dead tbh

[hollow canyon]

obviously, I kill other Deinos on sight

[fresh laurel]

Hiding is a good tool but can be unreliable

[hollow canyon]

I play Deino mainly to rid the servers of Deinos

[fresh laurel]

Why do that? to make water more safe to drink?

[icy drift]

I hate you. But, I understand why you do it lol

[hollow canyon]

Because I find this playable quite disgusting, it's way too safe and atrociously designed and the only thing that's good at hunting it is Deino itself

nothing else can even touch it

[hasty coyote]

I do agree they need to limit the bodyguarding and deathmatch mentality, but that’s all we have currently and making carnis too much stronger is not the way to go. Instead, balance out the ecosystem so everything has threats, make combat have longer term detriments, and/or give people more things to do.
deino and steg really only have each other to worry about and bully everything else. So when more large Dinos come, they won’t be able to just bully people. So currently they just bully people because there’s nothing else to do.

[fresh laurel]

wait for spino-

[hollow canyon]

Yea, it's only some 5 years away atm I think

[fresh laurel]

With how our Spino looks I wouldnt be surprised if someone altered the model to look like Zilla

[fresh laurel]

Wait for Sucho or Bary to kill baby deinos ig then

[hollow canyon]

I'd be more worried about Sucho and Bary getting killed than Deino than I would be about getting killed by either of these two as a Deino

at least with how Deino is right now

[icy drift]

I don't disagree. To play Deino "truly" would be opportunistic and not necessarily aggressive. Eat only when necessary or to defend territory. I'm not saying there's not a ton of Bully Deinos. So, I get it. Balancing isn't easy, I just hate a lot of the Stego mentality

[fresh laurel]

How to make Deino fun.
Deathroll.

[hollow canyon]

I think making Deino fun would take a bit more effort, the devs would kind of need to get back to the drawing board and just come up with some sensible mechanics for it, something that would allow for some actual skill expression while using its lunge or something idk

[hasty coyote]

And I understand hating stegos, but buffing deino to bully them just makes it worse. Now all those stego players go deino and walk up on land with no threats and EAT all the bodies. With a stego, you at least know they will get bored and leave so you can get the body.

[hollow canyon]

nah, as much as Deino being buffed to be able to hunt Stego is a really bad idea, we wouldn't be in much if any danger at all of Deinos walking on land with no threats, the goddamn thing just dehydrates too fast

[fresh laurel]

possibly start with punishing deinos more for running out of stam mid drowning?

Since you can escape but just die to the normal bites

[hasty coyote]

My main problems are:
1 “just herd up” doesn’t work
2 if you can’t run or fight things, then no one plays it (just look at hypsi, it’s just a troll)
3 it’s early in the game so it’s basically a deathmatch currently, hopefully future mechanics will stop this.

[icy drift]

My main concern was more of a lone Stego fending off multiple full grown Deinos. At the water's edge none the less.

I've solo'd a few Stegos, but isn't much fun and really takes good angles and location.

[thin mantle]

Then we've basically determined it, it takes terrible deinos for a stego to solo several, as you just said, it's possible to solo them, which I can corroborate it is.

[golden coral]

Two deinos should reasonably comfortably be able to take a single stego. In many cases, it comes down to them not being sure on how to approach it when it doesn't die in a few bites, or by being grabbed. It requires a bit more coordination and so on to pull it off, but it's absolutely doable.

[thin mantle]

So at that point, the topic of "stego soloing a ton of deinos" can be ignored and moved past

[thin mantle]

^

[hasty coyote]

Each of them have their problems, but deino has worse imo.
Stego:
Body guard, graze, and faster
Croc:
Eats bodies, can just hide in the water, can ambush everything in the game and 1-shot them except steg (unless that’s the change💀)

[fresh laurel]

people said Stego could solo more than one Deino?

[hollow canyon]

no lol

[fresh laurel]

oh good

[hollow canyon]

I mean people say that but they're just bad

[fresh laurel]

bruh

[hollow canyon]

2 Deinos clap a Stego unless they are bad

...which most Deinos most definitely are

[icy drift]

I watched one take out five.. it was..a horrendous sight

[hollow canyon]

I can imagine... watching such a terrifying lack of skill has to be a sight to behold

to be perfectly honest though - lest the Stego is mentally challenged/too confident, it's not really going to die

if it's smart it will just run for its life vs 2 Deinos

[mental roost]

The true, absolute comedic horror.

[hollow canyon]

In general there's a couple of scenarios that a fight like that can end with - 1. Deinos are bad and just die cause a clear skill issue, 2. Stego is bad and tries to fight them and ends up dying 3. both sides have at least one working brain hemisphere and Stego just ends up running away relatively quickly when it realises it's about to get sent to the character selection screen.

Deinos for obvious reasons can't give much chase anymore

update 3.5 they'd kill a Stego trying to run away

but that's no longer possible because Deino is a snail on land now

[fresh laurel]

so far it looks like they nerfed utah pin damage or something....

(update 5 stress test)

Utah mains rise!

[hollow canyon]

From what I've heard they made some good changes all around, Carno's hitbox is fixed from what I've heard, so is Pachy's, Utah's and Deino's

[fresh laurel]

utah had bad hitboxes?

but the real question is... did they fix pounce?

[somber sphinx]

From what I’ve seen yeah, but we will se if it breaks again

[hollow canyon]

The pounce specifically yea, from what I've gathered it seems to bug out more

[fresh laurel]

anths video looks like it works but...

[hollow canyon]

it no longer puts you in the recovery animation if you pounce at point blank

[fresh laurel]

hopefully we will see if update 5 will have more qol stuff too

and it seems more ai is now ingame for up5?

[thin mantle]

Wait.....you're not fucking with me right? It's finally over? I can rest easy now?!

[hollow canyon]

That's what I've been told

[thin mantle]

https://tenor.com/view/smiling-mcu-exhale-thanos-infinity-stone-gif-16660976

[hollow canyon]

I didn't join the stress test since I'm short on time lately so I didn't apply

[thin mantle]

Understandably so, I'll try and gather more info before planning my celebratory siesta

But if carno's bite box got even somewhat addressed....

[hollow canyon]

From what I was told it's fixed and works as it should

Pachy's ram is also far more reliable

so is Utah's pounce from what I've heard

Diets are... less bad I guess?

[fresh laurel]

yes that in fact means Utah can fight Carno again :DDDD

[hollow canyon]

Still bad because diets but they are more reasonable for herbivores

[mental roost]

Hopefully I can play the game again and not worry about my PC cooking itself.

[fresh laurel]

STOP THE CAP

[hollow canyon]

Carnivores finish their free perfect diet at 25% now

[fresh laurel]

you mean I can finally use pounce without going into the shadow realm or breaking?

[hollow canyon]

...potentially

I've only been told that about pouncing at point blank

[fresh laurel]

[hollow canyon]

but we will see how it works when the update actually comes out

[fresh laurel]

pouncing at point blank?

isnt that the most guaranteed way to pounce now then?

since less time for victim to react?

also the skin system would make targeting specific dinosaurs of a pack/herd easier

[hollow canyon]

Potentially, maybe, I'd expect so

[fresh laurel]

New foliage though...

and I assume they reenabled ai?

Hopefully we can see the update this month-

[hollow canyon]

no idea about any of that

[fresh laurel]

the videos seem to have new foliage

[hollow canyon]

I could ask but I'm only mildly interested

[fresh laurel]

eh just having more ai options is helpful

[thin mantle]

Not just utahs, everything can both intuitively fight and run from carno now! I can't tell you how many times a carno has bit me well out of range playing teno... it's....oof

[fresh laurel]

Bruh I was a Utah and a carno was trying to bite me and it somehow head shoted me from 4 feet of my tail

[thin mantle]

That's quite a common occurrence

[fresh laurel]

Hopefully Carno turns slower now though...

I imagine it would still be hard to fight them with how short their drift is

[thin mantle]

I've gotta go watch more streams or vids of the testers

[night geyser]

A stress system

[fresh laurel]

same

[fresh laurel]

what do you want from a stress system

[night geyser]

Stay in your habitat if you don’t do this you’ll get screwed one way or another and if you do it you’ll get benefits

[fresh laurel]

what happens if you dont stay in your habitat?

[night geyser]

Some concaquents like slowly lose health or slow growth

Btw animals can die frome stress

[fresh laurel]

that just sounds like beast of bermuda-

[night geyser]

Also another thing would be like if the place your at is too crowded that would help with hotspots

[fresh laurel]

also wouldnt this remove the exploration fun from the game?

[night geyser]

That’s not fun and you know it

Everywon already knows the map

[fresh laurel]

its not fun because the map looks bad

[night geyser]

It’s not fun becaus it’s a walking simulater

[fresh laurel]

and the map isnt even full size yet...

exploration can be fun if theres more to see

and do along the way

also what stops a massive raptor pack from following your dinosaur or something and just letting you die from stress?

[night geyser]

Eh don’t care

[dusky surge]

amazing discussion

[fresh laurel]

[azure crescent]

not even fun, not balanced also literally BoB moment

[tranquil pawn]

[azure crescent]

you forgot

[tranquil pawn]

my bad dude thx

[azure crescent]

much better

[carmine patrol]

it depends on the dino, ptera gets his diet on 40% as an example

[dusky surge]

wait, really?

[carmine patrol]

ye

[carmine patrol]

wait why isn't your name green?

or are you actually fake?

[mental roost]

The real mr cerato was the friends we made along the way.

[stark knoll]

Diets kick in at the same stage for all carnis, but now the percentage bar reflects "time spent"

So they all kick in at 25% from spawn to adult, but the percentage shown in the character menu depends on the species

[fresh laurel]

ngl I wonder if Deino will ever use its bigger estimates ingame for when the game is more apex ready

[somber sphinx]

I hope not, i hope it stays

[hollow canyon]

I hope we get the Deino we were promised - D.rugosus

makes so much more sense for the game also considering how the animal works there

[tall bronze]

I heard D.rugosus

Gimmie pls

Like you've already got big fatty Spino that's gonna be lurking in waterways, how are ye gonna fit 8 ton, if not bigger Deino as well ;-;

Plus I feel making it smaller would help lower people thinking it needs to be MUCH stronger and contend with Rex.

8 tons is already feeling like overkill for something that snags smaller stuff compared to it I mean

[hollow canyon]

Well the main point is that Deino relies on ambushing things from the water and killing them via drowning. It's not at all about swimming around and going chompa-chompa on things. Size is more so useful for exactly that kind of gameplay where you wrestle other presumably large animals going "omnomnomnom" on them meanwhile it's completely counterproductive for an ambush predator that punches down as it effectively restricts Deino's ability to attack other animals. There's just a tonne of spots on the map where you can drink completely safely because Deino is such a fatso that it just cannot possibly ambush you without showing itself in the shallows.

So as I said - with how Deino has been designed a larger size for it is more of a detriment than a benefit.

This thing would be borderline completely worthless at its max size because you simply wouldn't be able to attack anything barring other Deinos due to how large you'd be.

[hollow canyon]

basically precisely this ^

[tall bronze]

I agree. I knew a smaller size would let it hide better, but never truly realized just how odd it is that a stealthy creature is being made so large, possibly even larger if they go with increased elder size.....pls no

[hollow canyon]

I just can't speak in a concise way but yea that was what I was trying to say

[fresh laurel]

is that a smaller specimen?

[hollow canyon]

It's a species, not a specimen

Basically it's this one

its size varies, the upper estimate is in the ballpark of 6t as you can see here

the lower estimates are around 4-5t

[fresh laurel]

would only let is catch 2- 2.5 tons things

thats a good chunk of prey gone

[hollow canyon]

not in the context of Evrima

it wouldn't make any difference actually

[fresh laurel]

I mean Deino is still going to be in the other "gamemodes"

[hollow canyon]

That's years from now and besides - the weight value of the things Deino can lunge can be changed very easily

That's literally the least of the problems, they could likely change it within a minute to let Deino grab things its own size if they really wanted to

[fresh laurel]

deino grabbing things its own size would get bad fast

[hollow canyon]

I'm not saying that it should grab things its own size

[fresh laurel]

I think things half its weight makes the most sense tbh

like how it is now...

[hollow canyon]

I think it's nonsense and it shouldn't work the way it does at all

but I guess it was the easiest way to make it work

[fresh laurel]

I mean tug of war mechanic is an idea

[hollow canyon]

yes, one that was supposed to be in the game

[fresh laurel]

Also about you saying Deino should be smaller to fit into most rivers...

Wouldnt it be better to have another predator more suited for more shallow water sources?

[hollow canyon]

No, it really wouldn't

[fresh laurel]

how come

[hollow canyon]

You'd have to release another croc-like thing with the same gameplay loop just to occupy water sources of a different size

[fresh laurel]

I mean I was thinking more like letting sucho or something thrive in such a area

not a whole new playable

[hollow canyon]

but Sucho isn't going to play anything like Deino?

It offers a completely different kind of gameplay

[fresh laurel]

Sucho would still be enough to make one more wary of a shallow water source possibly

Bary too possibly but not sure on that

[hollow canyon]

why?

It's not like it's going to hide in that water Deino style just to lunge me and drown me

[fresh laurel]

deeper rivers would be what you want to look out for since Deinos thrive there while more shallow rivers would have their own set of predators

Plus then again you could always be a smaller Deino to live in a more shallow river

[tranquil pawn]

It quite literally will, (sorry for the resolution I'm on my phone atm ) but according to the concepts it literally will do that so what's wrong with adding bary instead of downsizing deino?

[dusky surge]

bary isnt going to lunge and drown like deino

it can claw at animals, but likely wont drown them

[old hull]

also its concept art , dont take it litterally

[tranquil pawn]

What can I say, I'm a fanatic

[hollow canyon]

I'd write something but the people above me have said more than what I could possibly want to say

[tranquil pawn]

oh ok...

[azure crescent]

@tame steeple by removing the old lunge entirely and working from the ground up on this one

also im pretty sure that bug comes from desync and a server issue, not the actual mechanic

[slim dragon]

There are other problems that technical issues and desync with a tug-of-war tho
What happens when there is more than one deino, or more than one prey ? Deino could just stunlock a stego by lunging it while a friend bites it to death
Or the opposite (less problematic but could still lead to a problematic situation) where a deino tries to grab something, and gets killed during the tug-of-war by a carno who chose to take the opportunity of having it locked in a tug-of-war

[hollow canyon]

Yes, precisely, don't get caught by multiple Deinos I guess that puts you in big trouble

and I mean... I guess the second scenario is... not impossible? But how likely is it to happen exactly?

You're lunging something as a Deino and you suddenly get attack by a Carno doing some 175 damage to you with each bite... while you have 8000 hp

[slim dragon]

Idk that's what the devs mentioned when they said they w<eren't including a tug-of-war mechanic soon

[hollow canyon]

not exactly a threat if you catch my drift

[slim dragon]

Well no, they haven't mentioned specifically a carno coming and kill you but they mentioned the problem of other dinos coming to participate

[hollow canyon]

But let's assume that you are really, really hurt, idk you have only 500 hp left

[slim dragon]

That's still a lot of free damage for the carno

[hollow canyon]

you can just... you know release your prey and get back into the water I guess?

Well good

that's what you get for attacking multiple targets at once, others can just go medieval on you while you're trying to drag the one you attacked

[slim dragon]

Also they would need to make the tug-of-war interactive so it's not just "wait 30 seconds and see if you die or not" on the prey's end

[hollow canyon]

oh yea I mean this animal being good is entirely reliant on the devs being able to make an interesting tug o war mechanic for it

it won't be good before that's sorted out really

[slim dragon]

Yeah

I thought what could work is making tug-of-war extremely short, like 5 seconds at most

[main fossil]

hello?

[slim dragon]

But it could feel unfair as a stego having your entire stamina bar depleted in 4 seconds and dying with no possible counterplay

[slim dragon]

Regarding what you posted in balance feedback, you should ask in Asura's official discord server instead

Nobody here can help you on that

[main fossil]

Where is the link to the Asura server

pls

hello?????????

[azure crescent]

it’s not stunning, the victim would still move, just the level if effort would vary

[slim dragon]

I doubt a stego would be able to move full speed with a deino latched on it
And unless it can still attack, it's not much better than a stun

[azure crescent]

that’s the whole point of my suggestion lol, to make it more interactive

[slim dragon]

But how would it be interactive ?

[azure crescent]

it can move, just not full speed, also i assume that depending on where you’re grabbed you can/can’t attack

so if a cheirus is grabbed by the head it can still claw attack, if a spino is grabbed on the arms it can still bite, etc.

ofc there would be a threshhold between just a death sentence and the tug and war, such as lunging a dryo

[slim dragon]

So it's only a matter of grabbing your prey where it can't fight back for the deino
And if it doesn't manage do, it just has to let go and try again

[azure crescent]

but again this would be a stam battle and the optimal move would be to back away

[slim dragon]

And for the prey, it's a matter of hoping the deino grabbed you somewhere you can still defend yourself

[azure crescent]

i mean, you can face the part of your body that punished you less towards the deino

also i don’t think a deino could attempt multiple lunges and get away with it

if it fails the first lunge it would likely not have stam to attempt a second time

since again, the opponent can move literally anywhere but towards the deino and it would drain the deino’s stam along with the victim’s

also if like a deino lunged the head of a trike the trike could likely just move forward and nearly kill the deino

so armor would also play a role into it

[slim dragon]

Well I guess it would still be better than what we currently have

[azure crescent]

anything is better than BoB mosa 2.0 haha

[hexed sorrel]

@azure crescent even something as small as utah? lmao

[azure crescent]

^ @hexed sorrel

[golden coral]

@hallow spire If you get pounced by a smaller utah that doesn't pin you, you can buck it off

[fresh laurel]

I mean nothing forces deino to have to keep staying in the tug of war if its being hit by 3rd party attackers

Plus you have to make sure you use the tug of war when its just you and the prey

you can use the basic lunge for grabbing a smaller prey out of the group too I guess

[tall bronze]

I really do wish for a tug of war style lunge, or just.....something that's not "right click, that's it" ;-;

[zenith canyon]

Carno hitbox is perfectly fine. It’s just the server d- sync that lets you think the hitbox is large, but it isn’t. You get snipped from Deinos as well and every other playable sometimes. People just get yeeted and they madly blame the hitbox.

I ( carno) have seen many Utah players outmaneuver my carno and successfully avoiding any hits. So sometimes it is just a skill issue as well

I can understand that the majority of people rather give carno changes in the hitbox. But the problems mostly relay on the server stability, frames and d-sync. When we misunderstand the actuall problem we won’t solve it.

[alpine plover]

While that is true that you shouldn't remodel the tree branches when the issues is in the roots

It has been proven that it is indeed a flawed hitbox socket for Carno's bite @zenith canyon

I believe the username #Aken has the source, just search his name in the server history

[hollow canyon]

From what I've heard it's fixed on the stress test anyways

additionally - allegedly this was an issue with bite hitboxes in general which obviously was a good thing for Carno since it uses bites a lot in comparison to other animals.

[hallow spire]

Ik I meant to say an adult Utah should be able to buck off another adult

[zenith canyon]

Well that looks kind of alright to me. It covers the area in front of the mouth. What I mean is people really get sniped by the d-synch and blame the hitbox being an airfield.

[hollow canyon]

It definitely isn't alright and as I said - fortunately it got fixed, what you posted there is just lag

[zenith canyon]

That issue comes with every Dino

[hollow canyon]

Like it's quite clearly lag you can even see the rubberbanding there where Utah runs away

[zenith canyon]

Yeah I agree with you 100% it is a lag. But lots of people bring that to the balancing and changing Dino’s just because they died of Server D- syncs

[hollow canyon]

As I said - in Carno's case it was a bit more than desync

as I've shown on that video - Carno doesn't have to make contact with its target to bite it

it landed hits from roughly a yard away

[azure crescent]

it’s 100% not alright to hit something a meter away from your mouth

not even deino has this issue

[hollow canyon]

well ermm... Deino did have its own set of issues with the bites

My Utahraptor find out about that the hard way

[zenith canyon]

I hope the fix doesn’t make it hard for carno to hit bites. I can understand why they made it like that currently even though it seems odd, it may be necessary for some playables. I mean as I am playing right now I sometimes still don’t hit smaller things like juvie utahs, so I wonder how it will be after update

[azure crescent]

it sure did but it never got as bad as carno has now

atleast in my own experience

[azure crescent]

hopefully the fix makes carno bites hit when they’re supposed to, aka when the head/mouth touches the enemy during biting

[hollow canyon]

From what I've been told this issue we see with Carno is a general issue with how bite hitboxes were set up

it's obviously more noticeable with Carno because it bites a lot

[azure crescent]

and has less delay when biting

[hollow canyon]

Whether Carno lands a hit from a yard away or not depends on the angle of your camera

[azure crescent]

a utah for example must time the bites better, a carno’s bite is almost instant

[unborn iris]

Definitely one of the carnos that charges from half a screen away using all their stamina.

[hollow canyon]

@delicate slate Carno does have a chance 1v1, it however mainly depends on how good the Tenonto it's facing is, I have at one point 1v3ed Tenontos on the current patch as a Carno so it's definitely possible(admittedly they were absolutely awful at the game).

Teno vs Carno is more or less where it should be - Tenonto does have the advantage 1v1 but Carno can still win this fight

2v1 the odds shift in favour of Carno a tonne

[fresh laurel]

it seems Utah missed pounce endlag got decreased in update 5

neat

[alpine plover]

I'm a genius

[tranquil pawn]

yes

[delicate slate]

Could we argue that was because they were terrible though? I don't mean to float my boat but i'm a pretty decent carno main and all this teno needed to do was get in front to kick and stun me and then tail whips that also give bleed to death?

to addon I felt he was much more capable of killing me a lot faster then I had or have the ability to kill him.

[slim dragon]

Yes that's the point
A teno should have the advantage against a single carno because it cannot run away

[dusky surge]

^

[tranquil pawn]

yeah ofc

[somber sphinx]

@glass hornet the whole point about carno is that its fast and has trash stam, no need buffing it

[glass hornet]

carno is a runner

[somber sphinx]

Yes, but it shouldnt be the fastest dino and it has good stam, that fucks over balance and what carno’s niche is supposed to be

[glass hornet]

yeah but i run for 1 min and i have to sit again

and if a tenoto is running for me i cant do anything about it cuz i have stam for like 1 min

or pachies

[somber sphinx]

Use foliage to ur advantage and save stam

[glass hornet]

or even a stego so

[somber sphinx]

If a stego is caching up to you then thats still issue

[dusky surge]

Stego literally has the same amount of stam as a carno but like half the speed lmao

[glass hornet]

no stego doesn't have the same stam

[dusky surge]

carno doesnt need more stam

[tranquil pawn]

yeah no carno don't need more stam

[tranquil pawn]

cough cough it's a sprinter

[tranquil pawn]

ur right, it has worse stam

[dusky surge]

nah, its around the same

except carno has WAY better stam regen

especially when resting

carno has the second best resting stam regen in the whole game, second to hypsi

[tranquil pawn]

[glass hornet]

it does?

[tranquil pawn]

think so

same or a bit less

but when I was playing stego a few mins ago maan that sprint takes stam faast

which is good for stego

and good for carno to have low stam

[glass hornet]

true, we don't want stegos running for 1 hour haha

[hollow canyon]

You aren't exactly wrong(aside from the fact that the tail slam doesn't apply bleed, it's the kick that does that, kick also deals more damage while we're at it but it has a shorter range and is generally harder to land).

Tenonto IS indeed much more capable of killing a Carno a lot faster than Carno can kill a Tenonto, it simply deals more damage(noticeably more) and applies CC with its attacks, then again - Tenonto's attacks cost it stamina so you can technically make it run out of gas and just kill it when it can no longer fight back.

This match up is generally meant to be in favour of Tenonto

it's not exactly unwinnable for Carno though

[delicate slate]

Okay I understand so Tenos stand above Carnos in the damage chain? Does this mean Tenos are ideally meant for Deinos at this stage or?

[hollow canyon]

No, not really, you can still kill a Tenonto 1v1, it's just not a favourable match up for Carno, Tenonto does have the advantage but can still get outplayed by Carno

you need roughly 10 bites to kill a Tenonto assuming you land hits on its body

You need 7 if you land hadshots

Tenonto needs to land 5 kicks or tailslams on your head to take you down

or 8 on your body

Tenonto obviously has a slightly easier time doing that since it has CC on its attacks but again - they have a stamina cost so you can have one run out of stamina

Tenonto is definitely killable by Carno, it simply has an advantage if it's played by a competent player

[dusky surge]

a new carno has more chance of beating a new teno

an experienced teno has more chance of beating an experienced carno

[hollow canyon]

^

Basically that, Tenonto is the more skill-oriented animal and if both players are bad at the game it will lose against Carno more often than not, as the skill of both sides goes up the chances of Tenonto scoring a victory increase