balance-feedback-discussion

[azure crescent]

how about, and hear me out, perhaps going to another populated area in the map?

such as the new river in center?

[mental roost]

^

[azure crescent]

when stegos appear there they're usually all on one side, and you can simply go to the other side to avoid every form of fighting with it

stegos are more forced to interact with you than you are with them

[harsh lark]

You fail to understand that I don’t care about your personal experiences because it doesn’t justify the flawed game design that forced you into it, even if it magically worked out for you specifically

[hasty coyote]

Or, we fix bugged water and people spread out more?

[azure crescent]

i know this is mind numbing to you, but you can LITERALLY go to another populated spot like i've just said

[harsh lark]

Wrong, just wrong lol. Stego has every source of water on the map to drink from, while a deino has to go to a select few high traffic areas to get ambushes reliably

[azure crescent]

however deino has a food source that only IT can access and stegos share their water sources with other creatures that you can ALSO ambush

[azure crescent]

plus even if they try crossing they become vulnerable af and you can probably kill them off

and if not they'll be quite low when they get on the other side and you can finish them

[harsh lark]

Did you know there can be more than one stego on the map

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/401481371249541120/964797553952579645/Screenshot_87.png

[hasty coyote]

Same can be said about crocs

[golden coral]

Thats both too many stegos and too many deinos in one spot honestly!

[hasty coyote]

Also that’s NW, the worst possible place for deinos

[harsh lark]

There’s only a handful of “high traffic areas” you can rotate around, it’s physically impossible to have a croc positioned at every drinking spot in the whole map

[mental roost]

^

[azure crescent]

you seem to be around 50%, which is faster than stego on land, you can easily make it down the waterfall before the stegos catch up

[mental roost]

What's the default headshot multiplier?(assuming Deino has the same headshot multiplier as everyone else that isn't Stego)

1.2 or 1.5?

[azure crescent]

plus stego cannot chase you if you try to flee through the water because you're faster on water than they are on land

[hasty coyote]

1.5x

[harsh lark]

Not my image, just an example of how abundant stegos can be, which makes it easy to run into one wherever you go

[azure crescent]

1.5

[mental roost]

Thanks

[golden coral]

Well, with that many deinos there, the stegos are needed to cull them at that point :p

[azure crescent]

they're almost only that abundant in that singular spot

[harsh lark]

Implying the literal 7 stegos in that image don’t also need to be culled lol

Damn it’s a shame diets did nothing to limit overpopulation

[azure crescent]

you do not find that many stegos in the other populated spots, and when you do there's either far less or they're stuck in ONE side of the river, which again, they'll be vulnerable when they cross

[golden coral]

They do, but since nothing else can even touch a deino, well, it's the lesser evil. Stego is overall weaker and more vunerable to the entire roster than deinos are, yet deino is never seen as an issue, no one complains about "utahs/carnos cant hunt them". Combined with how easy it is to grow deino vs stego, and so on, I sincerely think deinos are the greater balance issue here.

And yes, it's a shame that diets .. well, only really made growth more of a bother, more or less :p Though I guess some people like the idea of running across the map xD

[hasty coyote]

Stegs are common in 3 spots from my experience: NW, SE, and center. NW is just aids for crocs because of the waterfall and bugged water. SE also has bugged water. So center is the main area where the issue of steg v deino comes. And there’s a LOT of center to ambush from

[harsh lark]

Ok and? I’m not complaining about stego keeping deino water locked by camping every piece of land around it. All stego needs to do is safeguard the things deino can ambush and it invalidates deinos entire play style, all from a terrestrial herb who has no business being there for anything but drinking for itself

I mean I just think it’s a paradox that you guys are fine with stegos going way outside of what their intended play style should be because “land croc bad”. Which is true, but stego doesn’t need to be the thing that safeguards against landcroc being viable

[hasty coyote]

Honestly, if we just fix utah pounce and give an incentive to kill stegos, then stegs would be much less of a problem

[azure crescent]

you're literally wanting to make deino be able to go out of it's intended play style by making it be able to fight stego

[mental roost]

You can take 4(ish) headshots as a Deino and usually they'll hit your tail or body instead(so usually one 1850 damage swing, one 1250 swing and MAYBE a hit on the tail or tail tip (937 or lower) which isn't a whole lot given the 8000 health Deino has.

-Could also increase the headshot multiplier on sub adult and adult Stegos...???

[azure crescent]

^

[harsh lark]

I dont, stop putting words in my mouth. I dont think stego needs to have the privilege of going outside of it’s intended playstyle to go be a hippo

[azure crescent]

deino is very tanky and can usually afford taking a few hits when escaping a stego

[hasty coyote]

Stego is the only thing CAPABLE of stopping land crocs. Carno is small game hunter and will lose if the deino just alt bites. Utahs have to bleed and deinos have bleed resistance. The. Deinos can just hide in water.

[golden coral]

Meanwhile, stego having neck/head armor (of sorts) irl, and people still want it to have higher multiplier.. :p

[mental roost]

I don't want juvi stego to have a higher headshot multiplier because it's... not a very good juvi when it comes to survivability.

[azure crescent]

how is standing in the riverside being a hippo? hippos can chase off crocs, stegos can't.

DEINO. CAN. AVOID. STEGO. COMPLETELY.

[azure crescent]

true

[golden coral]

There are plenty of ways that could at least be tested out when it comes to the matchup, and for the rest of the roster at that

[harsh lark]

Yes, so fix that. Why is Land croc so busted that it can go on land and stomp anything short if stego? Nerf it and stego so it can actually get dunked by carno/Utah packs for overstaying it’s welcome on land

[azure crescent]

at the moment all the water sources are for deinos only, and no matter how much deinos stegos kill, it would be the deino's fault, regardless of it being on water or inland, because it could literally avoid it all.

[golden coral]

Ah yes, because "deino biteforce" sino

That's the reason I think

[harsh lark]

You’re just spouting in caps at me as if that proves something I already disproved to you. Stego can drink anywhere on the map but deino can’t ambush anywhere in the map

[azure crescent]

it can't stomp stego because it's literally not supposed to do it

[golden coral]

Sure, you could give it 200 bite force, and maybe slow its alt turn down to like, old carno slow motion, and so on, but then people complain that they can't oneshot bite a utah, and so on

[azure crescent]

deino isn't even supposed to hunt full adult stegos anyways, only the small ones

even in deino's concept art, it's shown simply not fighting stegos because it KNOWS that it shouldn't.

[harsh lark]

I dont care about deino hunting stego, they should just have a matchup equal enough that stego doesn’t see a deino in its home field and decide it’s a good idea to pick a fight there at the rivers edge

[golden coral]

If you can convince people that deino going on land needs to be stopped without stego presence, go ahead. But deino had less bite force earlier, and that was complained about. Deino also has double bleed resist cause no wallow (not like that does much when you can just go out of reach in water entirely, and mud pits are rare these days), which could be removed to make utahs pounce more terrifying I suppose. And so on.

[bright cargo]

If it were anky it would be the same situation. Stego isn't the issue

[harsh lark]

The wallow thing never made sense anyways. Deino is the Dino least vulnerable to bleed given it has a safe haven to escape it any time it wants, the bleed resist is basically the last thing it needs and it’s part of why land croc is so op without stego

[golden coral]

You could make it so it takes double stamina when you attack in deep water (deep enough that you walk that is), but then that should apply to everything. And you could remove stego quick jab and work on the attacks, make stego more designed towards dealing with smaller and faster things over large and slow ones. Not sure why people want stego to have massive attack power instead of the "AoE" style. Let trike be the thing that just "one shots" things, not stego.

[mental roost]

3 foot long spears on tail moment(or however long a large adult Stego's thagomizers are)

[spring dawn]

Hi, hello
Would you like to either:

• grow a dino for hours just to get grabbed and die upon drinking from a river
• seek out safe spots/bugged spots to drink

?

[hasty coyote]

Then you have the issue of 1 big carnivore that’s faster AND stronger.

[azure crescent]

no, they shouldn't. it's not supposed to be equal 1 on 1, because stego is literally the only thing stopping deinos from conquering everything.
stegos can engage all they want, but when the deinos respond, it's on them. nobody forced the deinos to respond to the stego's proposal. it's on them. they have no reason to attack a fully grown stego that has two seperate meter long spikes on each side of it's tail.

TL;DR: stego players can attempt to fight all they want, but deinos can choose not to die because stego can't get to them

[azure crescent]

first one because its more fun lol

[harsh lark]

I started this entire convo to point out that stego SHOULDNT be the one thing that’s holding back a land croc apocalypse and you missed that. Obviously don’t make deino stomp stego, but it should have the advantage in its own turf given that stego can drink in any part of the map. Do you get what im saying?

[azure crescent]

i do, hence why i highly support the idea of simply making stego swing deal less damage when it hits water

[spring dawn]

I think a big issue is that deino, while being a cool animal, introduces a really, really difficult balance ... You basically sit and wait for food to come to you, then complain when said food would rather not crash into you because ... Only stegos have a fighting chance against them.

[golden coral]

Yes, but then what is trike? :p My point is more so, trike is very well designed for the "massive single target damage" while stego is one of the three that can be given good ability to handle swarms instead, for which it doesn't need that much raw damage. And if given moving attacks, it can "delay" an attack by a larger animal possibly, to eventually "balance" out the ensuing "facetank".

[azure crescent]

i really hope tug and war lunge comes soon, with the obvious minimum and maximum weight threshold for prey of course

basically a stamina battle between the two players involved

with deino winning in the default situation

[golden coral]

It could still fight off a deino on land, just make stego a bit changed in what it excels at is the point. And the stamina thing in water would work to prevent stegos or anything else from going deino fishing as much. Besides, deino should also be changed a bit to be more vunerable to the rest of the roster + maybe make it have to go on land at that point so it can be both seen (and avoided) and possibly hunted.

[spring dawn]

Introducing a "spook" for animals when drinking would also make it somewhat more interesting. Instead, you just kinda look like a dumbass as a deino lunges at you, whereas animals would normally jump or flinch to avoid being grabbed

[azure crescent]

while only cosmetic, it would be a good change yes

[harsh lark]

That’s great, we can agree on something then. It’s a good band aid fix

[spring dawn]

Cosmetic or not, it would definitely add some dynamics

[azure crescent]

indeed

[spring dawn]

Stego tail submerged in water should be slowed and do way less damage, indeed

[azure crescent]

yes, it would make stegos think twice before engaging with deinos while making deinos think twice before engaging with stegos

[hasty coyote]

I wasn’t talking about deino v stego specifically , more like stego v allo, acro, rex, etc

[golden coral]

I'm not sure I see where the issue would be. What did I miss?

[mental roost]

Tank with shield on its face that tells apexes and any other animal to fuck off if they think they can try it from the front( much more aggressive play style than Stego I'd imagine). Triceratops is a beast of an animal if done right... If not you get legacy trike

Also a dumptrunk ass I guess

[golden coral]

Yeah, trike seems by far more designed to be offensive due to both weapon and armor in the same spot and well, plenty of sheer power behind it at that. Hence why I think trike would be the "apex fighter" but in turn weaker to things like utahs/dilos/whatever pack hunters we have, and then stego goes the other way around. It'll be worried about the other larger animals due to being the most "fragile" of them and lacking the offensive ability, meanwhile due to tail reach, it's far more suited to handle packs of smaller things where it can counter their speed/agility much better than a trike could.

Instead of just having them both be powerful and just.. "reverse" of each other. :p

[mental roost]

Triceratops has the fattest ass, and attacking it should do negligible damage from most things

Absolutely thicc

[hasty coyote]

If you make stego less on damage and more on aoe, it has trouble dealing with large carnivores that can just tank it. Stego is more damage and range while trike is more defense and counter attacks

[mental roost]

^ I kind of see Stego as a solid defender( true defense, not aggressive defense) with dps and aoe to defend itself but a critical weak point at it's front end

[golden coral]

Yes and no, if you give it an attack while moving, you can work around it a bit. And mind you, I didn't say no damage, just that it seems odd to me that the one animal out of possibly three, that is well deisgned for AoE, does high single target damage. Trike is far more suited to being aggressive and offensive, hence why it'd also be weak vs smaller pack hunters, while range makes you good vs them, or should at least.

[mental roost]

All around pretty solid choice, even with the other apex herbivores around but not for everyone

[golden coral]

And honestly, "true defense" isn't fun. I'd rather everything have some mobility than just standing in one spot all the time. It does not make for engaging combat. As we can see with deino vs stego, or just stego or deino vs their own kind.

[mental roost]

Same, unless it's Anky

[hasty coyote]

Anky

[golden coral]

Way I see it, the bigger the target, the worse off stego is, while the better off trike is. And vice versa. The smaller but more numerous the targets are, the worse the trike is, and the better the stego is.

[mental roost]

Anky is a fortress

[winged narwhal]

Nothing can top absolute cake

[golden coral]

Eh, I'd give even anky something more than just standing in spot and waiting. Like I said, it does not make for fun or engaging combat at al.

Even if anky would be the true defense, far more so than stego, if that's what you really want.

[mental roost]

Eh,... I' don't really see taking away stegos dps potential against other apexes as being a good idea

[golden coral]

Trike isn't really defensive, it's an animal that wants to come at you. Stego would want to sort of walk away but fight if you follow, and anky.. well I guess it can just sit there due to armor.

[hasty coyote]

I agree, I just don’t want any Dino to be too slow to run and too weak to fight back

[mental roost]

I want to waddle around and break ankles again as Anky

[hasty coyote]

It’s defensive in the way pachy is. It can’t chase you, but if you get close it’s not going to be fun

[golden coral]

No, and that's not what I meant either, I assure you. More so that between the two, trike sees rex = yes, a good fight. Stego sees rex = oh no, this is bad. trike sees utah pack = oh no, im in trouble. Stego sees utah pack = whatever, you're not a threat

[mental roost]

Not even kill, just break ankles, honk and then carry on smugly

[golden coral]

Pachys can be rather aggressive and offensive though :p

[hasty coyote]

Exactly lmao, a big “no go zone”

[golden coral]

Because we all know Isle players knows how to back down and move on :p

You imagine someone is going to just break an ankle and be like "okay, Im done now, goodbye"? :p

[mental roost]

Nah, but Anky is/ should be tanky. They want to try again, bonk em for being horny.

[hasty coyote]

Yes, I am one of those pachies lol. I mean in the way of “stand your ground” and if they get too close then charge in the offensive.

[golden coral]

Oh yeah, anky should be the closest to pure defense, much as I disagree with that concept a bit. But then that means stego should be slightly different :p

[golden coral]

Well yes.. I don't imagine trikes will chase stuff around. But trike has the ability to charge at you, like pachy. Meanwhile stego, well, it doesn't exactly want to go at you, so it makes more sense that it wants to go away and punish you for following :p

But since we don't have moving attack, for now that's kind of hard xD

[hasty coyote]

Stego is more offensive defense, just straight up kill them. While anky is pure defense, they can’t fight if they are paralyzed from the neck down.

[golden coral]

They can't fight if they're dead either.. not sure on the difference there, but maybe we're thinking about it differently :p

[hasty coyote]

I am trying to say the exact same thing, but I guess I’m wording it weirdly.

[golden coral]

:D

[bright cargo]

Stego legacy attack, but less damage

Make the impale its alt attack

[golden coral]

See, that sounds pretty good to me :p

[hasty coyote]

Just different methods to the same results. Anky will tank all the damage you do and make sure you can’t deal any more. The stego can tank a sizable amount of damage and deal out a lot.

[golden coral]

Honestly though, the latter sounds more like trike to me. Being able to tank, especially with the frill making the most vunerable point less so + far more weight than stego and having the power.

Stego can't really tank much, not compared to the others. It's by far the weakest, coming in at 7-8T if we go all out, while the others start there and only get fatter :p

And that's without it's extra mutliplier while the others most likely will have normal or even less due to armor

Stego should really not like to "brawl" at all, hence why I'm in favour of mobile attacks, it's job is to keep you away from weak point while dishing out damage enough that you at some point have to give up or you will die. More or less at least.

[hasty coyote]

I’m talking about anky and stego. Trike and stego difference is a lot more playstyle than method. Trike has 1 VERY defensive side and will win almost any 1v1 by facing your enemy. Stego has a weak point and is about positioning that weak point away from enemies while using its reach and aoe to hit large and swarms respectively.

There I changed the message to be less confusing lol

[golden coral]

Ah, well, between anky and stego, there would be a massive difference in tank ability, even if we remove stego multiplier and give it gular armor. Seeing as anky has now been upsized, or so I think at least, so it's like.. 9T :p

And that's without the fancy armor it has all over

[hasty coyote]

Anky is a last resort for food lol. Just not worth dealing with

[mental roost]

I hope Anky has mushrooms on its diet.. It just oozes average mushroom enjoyer

[hasty coyote]

Anky is just permanently high lmao

[golden coral]

But yeah, I do think we agree more or less on stego vs trike in what they prefer vs dislike to engage with.

[mental roost]

Big nose, small eyes, short but muscular stubby limbs, round body(built like a pancake/hamburger) with armor plating

[golden coral]

Dryos need truffles to eat, under trees of course so herreras can drop down on them :p

[hasty coyote]

We just need to wait and see what the devs do with them

[bright cargo]

Just wait 8 more years for trike or anky

[mental roost]

Add 5 more to that

Hopefully by then we get a better anky model but.... doubt it.

[golden coral]

Maybe they can at least.. round it out a bit more as it were :p

[mental roost]

An Anky without chonk and thiccness is no Anky.

Unless it's diseased.

[bright cargo]

#NotMyAnky

[mental roost]

#NotMyAnky

[stray venture]

im gonna be honest add some chonk and it would be fine even in its current state buff out that dent and it would look fine

[mental roost]

My boy needs to be as round as a pancake, as thicc as a hamburger with 4 patties and armored like a m1 abrams

[small gorge]

The power creep is gonna be real once more apexes are added

[dusky surge]

how

[keen plover]

?

[alpine plover]

Unless Apexes are arbitrarily nerfed or given insanely long growth times

They'll step on the toes of several other niches and just simply be better upgrades of the other animals like in Legacy

[harsh lark]

"insanely long growth times" wouldnt be a fix anyways, time limits are just artificial difficult people will inevitably overcome if they no life/megapack/carebear hard enough

[rapid flicker]

I think we have to look at making it difficult to sustain animals with longer growth timers.

And yeah carebearing and no-life'ing arent thinks that can be solved i think

[dusky surge]

nah, long growth times solve nothing, make it actually hard to grow

legacy's growth was long, but it wasnt difficult

make EVRIMA apexes actually hard to grow

EVRIMA stego is a great example, the diets make it legitimately difficult to reach adulthood due to a very vulnerable juvi stage

[slim dragon]

Also apexes CAN be balanced without being stupidly nerfed. Legacy apexes were overpowered AND some game mechanics gave them an unfair advantage over other species. There is no reason for them to not be balanced in evrima

[rapid flicker]

Things like walking speed are still examples of things that are imbalanced in Evrima

[slim dragon]

What's wrong with walking speeds ? Apart from pachy having a very slow trot ?

[rapid flicker]

Yeah exactly, why does carno/teno/utah walk 3x faster then pachy?

[slim dragon]

Remove the inconsistency with pachy and everything is fine

[rapid flicker]

Its the same thing as in legacy. Where giga was outwalking everyone by their fast trot speed

[slim dragon]

No, it's not ? Evrima is far better balanced than legacy regarding speed as well as everything else. Nothing outwalks anything else in evrima, with the exception of pachy, which can fight anything faster than itself anyway.

[rapid flicker]

Still Evrima has its inbalances. like the pachy trot speed

[dusky surge]

pachy walking speed is kinda fine imho. It's a pretty decent weakness

[slim dragon]

So pachy having low trot speed means apexes will be overpowered in evrima ?

[rapid flicker]

No, Im saying there will probably be an imbalance between apexes

[slim dragon]

That's a very random assumption

[rapid flicker]

It has enough weaknesses already imo

[dusky surge]

i mean, i'd honestly just keep its current weaknesses and buff up its strengths (headbutt)

make it a fucking nightmare to be hit by

[soft forge]

Buff Pachy headbutt so when it headbutts the air, the shockwave instantly destroys the bones of things in a 10 metre vicinity

[white cove]

Pachy alt attack becomes a javelin anti-tank missile

[soft forge]

Pachy rmb when fully charged up has the force of a m.o.a.b

[supple basin]

Could be nice to have little bit more stam as pachy though when you are running, I feel like my dino got asma and his trot is a pain.

[fallow blaze]

@blissful sundial So the players can't be that serious that Pachy should be made weaker again?

Alone you hardly have a chance if the first headbutt doesn't hit. You can't get enemies off your back anymore (Utah and especially Carno).
As Pachy, you only have one chance to survive now if you're in a herd (unless your opponent is worse than you).
But 8 times out of 10 you're lost alone (if the first headbutt misses). You are too slow and not agile enough to escape. Especially against the Carno.. Especially against the Carno.
Which is totally fine, that's what KissenKitten said = forget the 1vs1- It's a survival game and some dinosaurs survive best in a herd. This is true of the Pachy. From 2 animals you can feel safe. so it is not necessary to weaken the pachy again.

[alpine plover]

Should bloodloss inflict draining the water thirst bar?

[hasty coyote]

That’s just overkill honestly

It already cripples stam regen after a while, draining water is just going to be annoying and doesn’t directly help in combat.

[hasty coyote]

Personally: pachy only needs 2 things. 1: to make ram more consistent, whether it’s more ways to use it or more rewarding to hit. 2: a way to escape, it’s low stam and tracking make it impossible to run.

[fallow blaze]

you could say that. in a herd you don't need to flee if everyone is paying attention.
It's a good thing that not every dinosaur can handle every situation. That's how it is in nature.
As KissenKitten says yes, isle is not streetfighter. You have to know your weaknesses and play accordingly. When playing Pachy= in a herd and you are safe.

[slim dragon]

You don't always have the opportunity to be in a herd

No animal should be unviable solo

[hasty coyote]

Yes, but it still needs help escaping solo. Otherwise you have to be in a herd, which means less people play it, which means less herds, so less people play it. And it just loops

I don’t think pachy should be able to 1v1 a carno to the death, but be able to break and run when a carno finds it.

[bright cargo]

Solo animals should have the ability to either:

1. Stand their ground and be able to inflict decent damage
2. Attack that impairs the enemy in a way that allows them to escape
3. Just pure speed/agility to run away

Pachy is lacking rn even with the ram

[dusky surge]

a lack of stam, food and water already increases the duration you bleed

[fallow blaze]

Isn't that also the case with the dryo and hypsi?
You can't expect every animal to be able to keep up with a Deino or Carno, for example?! Be it in terms of speed or strength or life points.

Then everyone would be the same, only they would look different. That doesn't work in a survival game.

[fallow blaze]

yes and that's called surviving. That's what so many do. 😄
You can play without being seen.
Yesterday a friend of mine was able to escape as Teno from 3 Carnos even though they had his footprints (he saw them picking them up).
He was able to do this because he had crossed the river twice.

[slim dragon]

I don't say they should be able to run faster than a carno
But dryo is already pretty viable, it just lacks polish and an incentive to play
Hypsi would be too if spit was any useful

[slim dragon]

Yes, tenos are designed to be able to live around water bodies and use them as defence
Pachys aren't

Pachy is designed to tell everything that is too fast for them to escape to fuck off, with as many bone fractures as possible

Nothing in the game is designed to only be able to be played in packs or herds

[fallow blaze]

yes but remember, before the update that made the carno faster and the pachy not so manoeuvrable: everyone cried = the pachy is op.
now everyone is crying: I can't do it alone anymore (pachy).

Nothing in the game is designed to be played only in packs or herds <- that's not true. The Dryo and Hypsi have the best chance of surviving in a herd. Pachy and teno now too (everyone cried during the teno too = I can no longer win on my own). In the crowd, they all create confusion (hypsi, dryo) and deal damage and survive (pachy and teno). The only ones who are not dependent on a herd are perhaps the stego and the deino. they are strong enough. Yes, the Utah can do a lot of damage on its own, but it's also designed for a herd.

hypsi and dryo aren't fast. an utah is faster

the diabloceratops becomes a herd animal. The developers have already confirmed this. Because like the pachy he can't kill anything big alone (carno etc.) they don't have enough stamina for that.

they are only alone= i have to score the first hit to be able to escape. If I don't succeed, I'm dead. <- herd animal

but of course I have nothing against you personally. 🙂
This is the current situation with the current updates.
In Update 4, I didn't need anyone else as Pachy.
now i need at least one other player by my side (against bigger than utah's) already.

[slim dragon]

Being a herd animal =/= being unable to survive alone

A lone utah can kill dryos, hypsis, young stegos and carnos, and every ai
It can escape from everything else, including adult carnos

Same goes for a lone dryo, it doesn't even have to hunt, as can escape any threat just like utah, which is, in fact, it's biggest threat since dryo's agility isn't enough to compensate for Utah's way higher strength

And I don't get where you got the idea that hypsi is a herd animal, what is the herd even for ? Defend each other ? How many hypsis do you need to fend off one utah ?

[wispy kite]

Hypsi should be company to larger herd animals.

[slim dragon]

That shouldn't be mandatory

So as a hypsi in order to survive you MUST find a teno or stego player who is not only willing to tolerate your presence, although they have absolutely no benefit from it, but protect you on top of that ?

This is literally the opposite of being viable

[wispy kite]

Well, surviving solo in forests is quite easy. If you want to have fun, you gotta look for other players. It’s all about player-player encounters. That’s what multiplayer is about. So as hypsi you have to look for larger herbivores. If a carnivore comes for you, then it results in an exciting situation. What will you do? Probably look for help from the larger herbivores. Maybe luring the carnivores that come for you into the stego?

[slim dragon]

That's not the point

[frail bobcat]

hypsis and dryos should be living in the jungle if the jungle where actually liveable in, but with the cliffs and the EXTREME density you just cant enjoy to live in the forests

[wispy kite]

But without the density every carnivore will find you.

[frail bobcat]

Like not that many Bushes

And they have to remove the bushes from the cliffs, you only know you stepped to close to one when its to late

[wispy kite]

Well, I agree. Bushes at cliffs are deadlier then any dinosuchus. But without the bushes you have literally no chance of escaping a carno in forests.

[frail bobcat]

Just add fewer but larger bushes

[slim dragon]

Bushes are already massive in the game

[frail bobcat]

then remove some bushes

[slim dragon]

Depends on where
Some areas should stay very dense

Besides, evrima jungles are already pretty clean compared to real jungles

[frail bobcat]

but not every part of the jungle

[fallow blaze]

you didn't read correctly. with the hypsi i said, many hypsis on one spot have the chance to confuse the attacker and can run away better. and because they can spit even more so.

every animal that is not able to kill with its abilities (with an emphasis on big hunters = carno, deino), (dryo, hypsi, and there is also a lonely teno and pachy) have better chances of surviving in a herd / group at least 2 animals.
I said no more. I never said you MUST PLAY IN A HERD.
I responded to the comments here that said the pachy needs this and that. he doesn't have to. the way he is right now, that's a good thing. in a survival game you don't have to be the strongest and the best. you just have to figure out how to survive. and that's how the game NOW IS possible.

[fallow blaze]

yes, the diet system is not yet properly designed for the forests. which I also find very unfortunate. 😢

[golden coral]

Everything has a better chance in groups, more or less. That does not mean it should require a group to survive, because if you do that, no one will play the critter in the first place. Also teno is pretty capable of taking on a carno and killing it. Pachy might need some help on that account, not sure how well it does.

[fallow blaze]

yes I agree. I play teno too less. But I remember pretty well the last update as many said: that the teno was now completely useless on its own.
The day before yesterday I also lost a 1vs1 as a teno against a carno, but I don't play it often. so it wasn't because of the teno 😉
with pachy you can already say: hey, run in pairs, then you will survive or win.

[golden coral]

Yes well, people needed to get used to the teno changes I think. But the pachy might need some help, not sure how well it does vs a carno, and judging from feedback, people have all kinds of issues with carno at that.

[fallow blaze]

yes of course. I also had to get used to the pachy after the balance patch. :D, because the carno has become more manoeuvrable, you can no longer get it off your back. that was the advantage pachy had with update 4. the carno was faster but you could dodge it easily.
Now it's like this, should you miss the first hit against the carno from an ambush as pachy, you're lost on your own.

[golden coral]

Sounds like pachy do need some help then possibly. Also I don't think pachy is supposed to ambush the carno.. that sounds a bit off :p

[naive pond]

Pachys should never want to chase a carno

Pachy is a defence

If you don't play aggressive you are good

[fallow blaze]

you are absolutely right.
I'm talking about the situation and you have it relatively often. you sit in a bush in the center (to fill up stamina, to hide because you saw a carni in the distance, whatever).
You see a carno about 5 meters away picking up your footprints and coming in your direction. What do you do?
stay put= dead; run away= dead ; the only thing you can do is try to hit him from the bush. ambush <- :D. and if that fails, you are also dead. because the carno sticks to your butt. the ALT attack does not stop it.

[wise sparrow]

Oh are we having another case of "it eats grass so it needs to herd"?

[fallow blaze]

absolutely not.

I've often read again = pachy needs this and that to survive in 1vs1. he doesn't need it.
because if he has it and then goes with pachy in a group with others= they are way too strong.
therefore: leave it as it is, try to relearn it.
i only mentioned the herd/group of 2 animals because it makes up for his weakness in 1vs1, which many criticized.

[wise sparrow]

You can make herbivores strong and not busted in a herd by simply;

1. Making grass depletable
2. Increasing herbivore food cost
3. More easily detectable megapack sents.

Things like teno could be strong solitary animals that could get indirectly punished for herding too much by having almost no food left in the area. There are ways to make solo herbivores viable without making herds of them busted. The devs just have to stop giving every herbivore stupidly high group limits and a super low food cost

[naive pond]

I'm not saying that pachy needs to be in a group

Pachy is my favourite dino

I'm just saying that if it defend itself can easily win vs a lonely carno

If you just hit and run away you are good

I'm saying that if you chase down a carno with a pachy the chance that you die is pretty high

[wise sparrow]

Tracking system and carno fracture run speed go brrrrr

If you're a solo pachy and a carno sees you, you cant even fracture and run because carno is about as fast as pachy with a leg fracture and the tracking system makes escape impossible

[naive pond]

Another problem is that the carno can heal the fractures super fast

[naive pond]

true

And carno can heal leg fracture while running like crazy

But still the chance is a lot higher if you play defense

And you can make carno have all the fractures with like 4-5 hits

[fallow blaze]

And all this programming effort that would take months (thus further delaying game release) just because a select few refuse to relearn the animal?

the players demand more broken bone damage, more damage in general, more stamina, more life points, more speed. because they can't deal with him alone. if the devs do that, the pachy will be the new carno. because then they only kill everything in groups 😄

your solutions wouldn't change anything about it. I pray that the devs don't implement these absurd ideas- " makes the pachy like this"

[fallow blaze]

when you meet him 😉 and I agree 100% with you.
my favorite too. That's why I know what I'm talking about 😄

[fallow blaze]

it's correct. with a broken leg, the carno is almost as fast as the pachy. the pachy is really very little faster. I had the situation first: the carno will THEN get more than just 1 hit and then he will get respect.

[wise sparrow]

There's not even any extra programming. It's literally just tweaking some numbers

[naive pond]

I don't like the idea that pachy can stop the charge of the carno tho I hate carno but charge is so hard to land and pachy can just stop it with a head fracture

Ikk that you can disagree with me but ye

[unborn iris]

Pachy doesn't just stop it. Pachy takes a body fracture.. pachy with body fracture is screwed if he doesn't find somewhere to hide.

[naive pond]

It's the same with carno,carno gets a head fracture

[fallow blaze]

in update 4 you could not stop the RM attack from the carno. you bounced off as pachy.
is that different now? <- but i think the same

[naive pond]

Pachy can at least do some damage

[unborn iris]

If pachy with a body fracture sticks around he's out of stamina in like 2 rams.

[naive pond]

Why would I use the charge when Ik when I use it I might die

Its like Utah vs stego

If you make a pounce you can die

[fallow blaze]

OK Good. however, the devs can't make the beast as strong as required.
that would completely upset the balance in the ecosystem (as the devs call it). despite reduced numbers.
Pachy should only able to defend himself and not kill everybody alone.

[golden coral]

Pretty sure they can improve the pachy a little without making it too good. And if pachy can't defend himself 1v1, then there's an issue, no? You keep saying people claim it needs this or that to survive 1v1, then you go and say "pair up", which just proves that the others have it right, and pachy does need a bit extra for that 1v1?

Can a pachy properly defend itself and get away from a carno, if it can, all good. If not, then maybe there's an issue.

[wise sparrow]

How would it mess with the balance? You're literally helping it by decreasing the amount of herbivores herded up in one area and spreading then out across the map due to competition.

Also you say strong herbivores herding is a bad thing like buffalo dont exist

Or that solitary herbivores are a bad thing like rhinoceros dont exist

[fallow blaze]

why are you lying now i never said that

[wise sparrow]

Then tf you on about "upsetting the ecosystem"?

[fallow blaze]

the problem in that situation is not the dinosaur but the player.

[fallow blaze]

the stego cannot defend itself against a petri. he can't punch in the air. is this also a problem/issue?

[wise sparrow]

Stego cant take damage to the plates effectively making it immune to ptera.

Any I gtg I have a test

[fallow blaze]

ok you won i give up some were here in my opinion. i was not alone
you don't understand what i mean and my words are being reversed here. you only hear what you want.

[frail bobcat]

does the petri pose a threat to the stego

[golden coral]

And isn't that part of why the ptera does so little damage and stego plates takes almost none, if not outright none. Precisely because of shenanigans like that and so on.

[golden coral]

Well you say that, and others clearly disagree. But if pachy can handle a carno 1v1 without being "assridden" and/or needing to somehow ambush the carno first, then it's good. If not, I think there's maybe an issue.

[fallow blaze]

if not, that's because people screw up the 1 hit and then lose. of course a pachy comes out in a 1vs1 situation. if he hits. and you will never hit 100% always. and that doesn't have to be a issue

you don't have to agree with me but you can see what i mean. but it doesn't feel like it.
Why I started writing at 12:48 today was just to get people thinking = hey the pachy is good the way it is. try it like this.
and then it started:

pachy only needs 2 things. 1: to make the ram more consistent, whether there are more ways to use it or more rewarding to hit. 2: A way to escape, its low traffic jam and tracking make it impossible to run.

it's not impossible. it works for so many others too. train.
Most of the problems you read about the dinosaurs here is because people don't want to train with or get to know their dinosaurs.
If you would, you wouldn't have to talk about= I need more damage, broken bones, I need more stamina, I need whatever.
like the dev KissenKitten has said: isle is not streetfighter. If you die, it's your fault.
Of course, the game has to be patched with every animal that comes in and with every further update.
But what some players here expect from their animals. for example: that deino needs bones break <- why?!? for what reason!? its strong enough. don't fight agains a stego alone and all is well.

[golden coral]

I think my issue is that you phrased it as pachy needing to ambush/surprise the carno. What happens if the carno comes at you, can you turn/juke the carno, land a ram to break the carno, and then get away? But that might be more down to carno turn, or pachys ram turn change or somerthing. My point here is more so that the whole "jump at carno from a bush" is not really a good argument, cause it's outright strange behaviour, or at least so I think. If the carno has seen you, and is running at you, what do you do? You said something about if you miss that one hit you're dead, and that doesn't seem right to me. And survival is not quite the same as actively hunting, so it's not an ideal comparison I don't think. And yes, you're right, it's not a fighter/fighting game, but it still has to be balanced for survival, meaning 1v1, since nothing should have to have another player to be survivable/viable (or we get other issues from that).

[naive pond]

well just don't let the carno come to you?When he comes to you you have fractures

thats why they gave pachy fractures

[frail bobcat]

This thing is faster than a pachy

[fallow blaze]

if you we could speak together would probably come across differently. 🙂
I see we don't understand each other that wrong.
the situation i described, the carno only followed the footsteps, but didn't see me. if he had that then he could have stormed off immediately. so i decided if he is close enough i will come out and hit him and then i can run because he has a broken leg.
But of course you're right, there are definitely other ways. I didn't know anyone in the situation. So I never actively hunted the carno (I would never think of it, I don't play like that). My defense was a surprise attack so I wouldn't have him sticking to my butt.

[naive pond]

I'm saying that you don't let the carno facetank you

[golden coral]

I don't think anyone suggested that pachy should facetank a carno.. :p

[naive pond]

?

[wispy valley]

Can we talk about this again

[hasty coyote]

I don’t think there’s much of discussion, I don’t know anyone who would dislike wallowing at rivers.

[loud tinsel]

the amount of times i've approached the side of a riverbank thinking there was mud only for there to. not be mud

[hasty coyote]

You appear to have used my quote as “bad pachy can’t learn”. I can tell you right now, I know what I’m doing as a pachy. The issue is that carnos can literally track through heavy bushes while sprinting. If the carno is competent, there is very little chance of getting it off of your tracks. I can straight up kill a bad carno alone as a pachy, but a competent one is nearly impossible to deal with alone. If they juke the first hit last second, they just get a bite off from the tail ride and either kill you before you can hit them or just track the blood down. I have broken a carno’s skull and ribs in my first 2 hits, ran into the forest and hid to regen stam. Before my stam was even half way, the carno found the exact bush I was in, with his bones still broke. I still escaped because my bleed healed, but the fact he could track me that far with 2 broken bones is insane. If you really need more evidence, I’ll try and find a video and link it to you that shows how broken it is.

The “break and run” strategy doesn’t work atm because “breaking” is inconsistent and can be near impossible to do if the carno know how to dodge. And the “run” doesn’t work because tracking and bad stam make it very difficult to escape after a break.

[fallow blaze]

I didn't see your quote. is a misunderstanding. 🙂
So I can't kill an adult Carno with a pachy (without fleeing the fight). because the pachy has too little stamina for so many attacks. If you run away and regenerate, yes it is possible.

but your arguments relate to good carno players. how often do you meet them? not every carno player is a pro. and therefore it is very possible. some carno players run away after the third hit. I see that often, so it's possible.

escape works. mud pits and rivers help a lot. after the mud pit you are not taggable. A carno does not cross the same river twice. he loses more stamina than the pachy. of course the pachy also swims slowly, the carno is slower. the forest anyway. not every run away is hopeless. i play on the official server and others. it is possible. I can't help it if some people have more bad luck.

[naive pond]

I think that the two of you are right.I think the problem is the diet and the tracking(and maybe a little bit of stats changes for carno)

bc of the diet is hard for the carnivores we wont see 1000 carnos in every server

and if the tracking is fixed you are gonna have a chance to run away when you have a fracture

when you have a fracture on the carno i mean

[fallow blaze]

yes thx :), without diet every dinosaur has a disadvantage in battle.
and even there it is completely possible to walk through the map alone or in a group without meeting a enemy player/carni. on Official EU1, players showed me a route where you will NEVER meet anyone (walk there a a lot) and you don't lose too much time/diet to get your diet full.

[rain wraith]

I see absolutely zero point in trying to balance the current roster to "compete fairly" with each other as there are way to many species yet to add to said roster. If players simply understand that asking for buffs/nerfs at such an early stage in the game will only make balancing far more difficult as development progresses. Yes there will need to be changes once the roster is filled out more but asking for the roster to be balanced every time a new dino is added will only prolong the development time. This game is fun and will be great if people can just be a little more patient and let the dev team just work on it rather than demanding content and updates/fixes to mechanics still not matured.

[tall bronze]

Problem with that though is that it means if the current roster isn't very balanced with one-another, no one will want to play. Why would you want to play a game that's purposefully left unbalanced?

And yes, while we could just wait for new dinos, that takes a while.

[naive pond]

so you are saying that we just have to leave everything now?or I'm dumb

bc if we wait we are gonna wait for so long

just for some little patch

so imagine how long the updates take

[rain wraith]

wait yes for the roster to fill a lot more before trying to balance. currently 9 dinos out of around 50 planned, so yeah will take a lot longer to get to the 50 or so if we reshuffle balance every release

[naive pond]

but we can't just leave the game unbalanced

no one wants to play the game that has no updates

that's why the isle is losing people

the game development is super lame

ik its hard but the devs just always make mistakes

they just leave us with unplayable game

[hasty coyote]

The opposite is true. If we balance everything now, then we only need to make small tweaks to the current roster to allow new dinos to thrive. We can change the Dino to fit the game much easier than changing everything in the game to fit each other at once.

[naive pond]

you cant just wait for the future

those 50 dinos are gonna come in 20 years

[hasty coyote]

Waiting for the future to fix everything is how we get the same issue as legacy again

[rain wraith]

no choice factys

id rather wait for quality than be served a broken mess faster

[hasty coyote]

Plus, do you remember when they just tried to hotfix the game and then had to release like 5 patches after to fix it? Imagine that but with balance instead of bugs

[hasty coyote]

Then why do you want them to balance out everything after? It takes time to balance and it improves the quality. You are literally asking for them to rush a unbalanced mess

[rain wraith]

not at all.

[hasty coyote]

How so? Explain how taking the time to balance the playables as they get added is not trading speed for quality.

[rain wraith]

there obviously is balance taken into consideration before releaseing new species, im simply saying that we dont need to constantly tweak them all every release as there will be so many "tweaks" needed once the roster is larger that it will slow progress.

easier to once the roster is near full and most species find their niche to adjust to suit playstyles/fun

[naive pond]

doesn't matter if its gonna slow the progress.We just want the game to be good

not to rush and then in the end to be garbage

[rain wraith]

yes thats my point, no rush

[naive pond]

I don't want to play unbalanced game for 8 months while waiting for a single update

[naive pond]

you are not saying that bro

you saying you want all of your dinos

without fixes

[rain wraith]

no need to put a finishing touch on something that will need 10 more finishing touches

[rain wraith]

never said that

[hasty coyote]

So, you’re telling me that balancing them out is going to improve the quality but take time? They are going to have to tweak everything anyway, so why not balance everything out so when something gets added, it doesn’t break everything else.

[rain wraith]

im not talking fixes/bugs. BALANCE

[naive pond]

what is balance for you?

just asking

[rain wraith]

omg

[hasty coyote]

You’re literally saying A: you don’t want the devs to rush, but also saying B: sacrifice balance to make Dinos come out faster

[naive pond]

I'm confused wont lie

[rain wraith]

i think you both are XD

[hasty coyote]

Either you’re not wording your argument correctly, or you contradict yourself a lot

[rain wraith]

yes im not wording incorrectly XD

[hasty coyote]

Ikr ironic lmao

[rain wraith]

nice edit XD

[wispy valley]

Feels like no matter what, something goes wrong

[rain wraith]

^

[hasty coyote]

That’s just games lol, something is going to go wrong constantly. It’s about fixing those issues and preventing them from coming back.

Still, I’m going to advocate for the changes I want:
1: pachy ram lasts until you cancel it
2: the ram can be canceled so to left click instead of looking down
3: you turn faster by walking/standing still while charging a ram
4: a nerf to carno tracking so pachies can “break and run”

[cobalt summit]

What u meant to say is "delete carno"

[hasty coyote]

Why would I want to delete carno? They’re too fun to break lol

[hasty coyote]

@pallid acorn there are 2 issues with that: 1: stegos do 1200 damage i believe and 2:hp=weight so now they are now nearly as heavy as carno and 2-3x heavier than pachy, so now pachy gets 1-shot by a pounce and can not kill a raptor in time

[slim dragon]

Utahs don't need the leniency to survive a stego hit

[pallid acorn]

Didnt realise stego did 1200 damage

[hasty coyote]

also, utahs are like 400kg atm, so youre 3x its size

[pallid acorn]

I thought he did 1000

[slim dragon]

Because if so then stegos have zero chance at surviving against a utah pack

[hasty coyote]

literally the point of utahs is a glass-cannon that can take on things in their own weight size and kill much larger things in a pack, minus a casualty or 2

if you buff its health, you take away its one weakness, its like making carno turn fas-....

[pallid acorn]

All right maybe it wasn't a good suggestion

[naive pond]

That's the point of utahs

Nobody can kill stegos

Only utahs

And you rarely find a big utah pack

[slim dragon]

The point of Utah is not to invalidate it's prey's existence

It is to be ABLE to kill stegos, not be able to kill them without any way to counter it from the stego

[calm ibex]

utahs are constantly plagued by trust issues caused by cannibals, and then you have carnos weeding them out constantly by hard countering them.

[hasty coyote]

dont forget pounce being Russian roulette

[frail bobcat]

They NEED to fix this+

[hasty coyote]

definitely, if they fix pounce, im pretty sure utahs are going to be nearly as scary as carnos

[frail bobcat]

I hope it gets fixed in update 5

[naive pond]

''but noooooo we have to wait for 50 dinos bc we are slowing the progress!!!!''

[vocal minnow]

i hope it will or i will be disapointed

[rain wraith]

Yes fix pounce asap as its a broken mechanic atm not a balance issue

[white cove]

Dynamite take but I hope "fix pounce" doesn't mean every dismount is 100% invulnerability window regardless

Like, on flat ground forsure - but if you decide to pounce in a bad spot then there should definitely be a way for you to get hit if you dismount in crap terrain

[hasty coyote]

personally, i consider that part of "fix pounce"

[late quest]

A lot of what I'm seeing is complaints from solo players saying utah isn't strong enough and they shouldn't die to things... When that's kind of the point, honestly. Utahs were never meant to fly solo. They hunt in packs and work with each other, not take on much larger predators like a charging bull. As a utah main, I still struggle to find decent packs and I still see and hear utahs biting the air because they're cannibalizing each other, likely because they're not smart enough to team up and work for it. I fly solo because I don't trust y'all. lol Hunting AI isn't that hard, if you know how to move quietly across the map and avoid things that can kill you. A lone utah is an easy target and shouldn't be aggressive. We can't all be Sticky. lol
But really, "fix pounce" is going to be a mantra of mine, even if I've been on the receiving end of it and know how well it works (in the hands of a skilled player group). That and fix tail slam, because watching a carno bite a teno to death from the very tippy-tip of its tail because it can't get hit is secondhand painful to watch. I will gladly take on the accusation of being a mixpacker for pouncing a carno who just cheeses a teno like that.

[white cove]

Yeh, it's really hard to make a proper skill-oriented pack hunter

If it's strong enough to be able to take on anything solo with patience and skill, then a group of players with that mindset is straight unstoppable

But the flipside is that if a lone utah doesn't feel strong, people aren't inclined to play it

I guess my view on it is that lone utahs almost always (sans carno chase) have full agency to pick their engagements

so they shouldn't be able to win every fight, even if they are patient

bugs aside ofc, fix pounce

[alpine plover]

@dim haven how much health do u think a carno has?

Utah is in a interesting predicament

It's a small tier that can pack hunt much larger prey, while still having to be balanced around not solo killing things

I can still solo kill Stegos/Carnos with enough patience and exploiting player ignorance. Though nerfing Utah further because of that teeters close to invalidating the playable until it's capabilities are almost null. Given it's niche is to hunt larger prey. Relying on a larger pack is extremely helpful, but with enough perseverance. Isn't necessary.

[hasty coyote]

Yeah, I don’t think utah is in a too bad spot atm (once the bugs are fixed). A VERY good utah has a small chance to kill an absolutely terrible stego. But if a stego is competent, it will take a lot of raptors to kill it. Generally, 1 mistake is all it takes to die as a utah, to basically anything in the game rn. However, mistakes are bound to happen to everyone, so even the best utahs will eventually die. Packs just limit the chances of mistakes happening, so packs are needed to bleed out large things in extended fights. While solo they can hunt things smaller reliably.

[alpine plover]

I think to an extent, it's just something you'll have to accept in the balance of this game. That some players will play so good making nearly zero errors and great timing to overcome more powerful playables which are controlled by less competent players

Nerfing a playable (if it's not a frequent or broken method) is a vain effort

You nerf pounce/bleed. I'm still going to accomplish that feat, it'll just take longer. Nerfing anything else, and the pop ratio of Utah's will drop off as it becomes nearly obsolete

[half girder]

utah is ok, pounce just needs to be fixed

for the most part of me playing i think its fine balance wise

[alpine plover]

@valid sedge It actually doesn't fit Tenos "personality" at all.
Tenos whole thing is to be a brawler by using everything in its kit instead of just alt+rmb spamming.
This Teno is fine. The only thing that needs a change is to reduce the tail stamina.

People just need to adjust and finally get the thought of: "Oh I landed this one attack, let me just spam it now. Because I am such a skillful player"

Also, it's an Iguanadontid.

[valid sedge]

I said that I wanted tailslam as one of his main source of dmg i didn’t say his only source of dmg. I agree that it shouldn’t be like update 4 where people mostly used tailslam, but personally it just doesn’t look natural to have the kick deal more dmg than a tailslam from a creature that has a tail almost half his size.
Also thanks for correcting the class

[alpine plover]

But if you make it the "Main source" of dmg it just becomes THE only source of damage because it simply beats everything.

Teno's tail has incredible long reach, stun/knockdown, is fast AND should also have high dmg?
That's an all-in-one package where the creature basically has to do nothing but just use this attack that grants you almost everything.
Also, I think it can make sense. The hind legs have a larger and harder surface, unlike the tail. It's like taking a pipe and hitting you over the head with it, and then taking a large hammer and hitting you over the head with it

The reason why kick should be the dmg dealer, is because unlike tail you still have to get upclose to the opponent. And you don't need to do that if the tail is the dmg dealer.
Tail is good for sniping people and knocking them down / stunning them, to allow you to run over and kick them in the face.
And I'll correct myself.
The 2 things Teno's tail needs is:
-Less stam consumption
-A longer stun duration

Maia's thing should be to just simply run over you if you don't move aside

[valid sedge]

True but I feel that the difference in dmg it’s just too much now between kick and tailslam, I have another idea but I don’t think you would agree

[alpine plover]

Well. Tail is 180 dmg while kick is 300 dmg.

[valid sedge]

Yeah I was thinking that tail 225 and kick 275 was a better idea

Or another solution was to make tailslam stun duration depend on which part of the tail hit the enemy. Like hitting the enemy with the tip of the tail would deal dmg and no stun, hitting the enemy with the middle of the would cause stun and dmg

[alpine plover]

Or just make it longer in general

[valid sedge]

Doesn’t sound that fair tho, like imagine being hit only by the tip of the tail and being stunned. Making the stun duration location based would force the teno to either only deal dmg with the tip of the tail or try something more close range with a stun

[fresh laurel]

the tip shouldnt even do a good amount tbh

[analog mirage]

Honestly I would say change kick to be fracture based, but have a way less chance than something like a pachy has of getting one. Tailslam way less stam, buff claw bleed

Make Tailslam and kick same damage so they can both be used as main attacks to fish out different things in different situations. Then you have claw for applying bleed for weaker damage

[half girder]

pachy dmg is fine lol

[alpine plover]

Other than maybe a slight kick hitbox adjust, and a slight tail slam stam reduction

Teno doesn't need anything else

It's still really good atm

Just a fucking unbearable growth time

Like almost all herbies atm

Teno/Pachy should have near Utah growth times simply

[hollow canyon]

This isn't true, those values are complete nonsense

[hollow canyon]

Tail already does more than 225

Idk how much kick does but it's not all that much more than tail, it's less than 50 dmg more than what tail does

[rapid flicker]

@analog mirage game is boring af, all you can do is fight

Im not gonna run from anything

[hollow canyon]

Fractures aren't "chance" based so there goes that whole suggestion

I'd honestly just lower the stamina cost for both tail and kick

I was made aware that kick actually costs more than I thought it did

[rapid flicker]

Whenever nesting comes and I have children to feed I might be considering running from things but for now fighting is the only content

[frail bobcat]

Herbis in real life have to wander hundreds of miles sometimes, you can do that to.

[analog mirage]

The point is to make you not fight. The game has pvp aspects however it’s supposed to mainly be a survival game.

[hollow canyon]

The issue is that every survival aspect of it is just absolutely awful meanwhile the PvP is really good whenever it works that is

[rapid flicker]

Yet there is not reward for surviving

[rapid flicker]

I agree, pvp is about the only thing you can do threat doesn’t get you bored

[analog mirage]

I do agree on this however later in the game when we have things like perks and elders pvp will not become the main focus.

Surviving and not taking fights all the time will become more of a reward

[rapid flicker]

True! But that is until then

We are talking now

That’s like saying stego is fine because Rex will get implemented

[analog mirage]

I mean if a pachy cripples a Carno but can’t dish out much physical damage against it then it has every opportunity to walk away and not risk more injury

[hollow canyon]

The only reason why I'd ever care about perks and elders is be to make myself better at PvP

PvP is literally the only thing Evrima does right

[analog mirage]

Ehh that’s your own choice. Perks won’t all be for pvp purposes. In fact I think Fillipe said most will be more to change the way you can play and have various ways to play like changed diets and such. Idk

Some might be for pvp but most will prolly involve survival aspects

[hollow canyon]

changing diets can very much help with PvP

you can make yourself more efficient at pvp without necessarily changing the stats that have the direct effect on the PvP

[analog mirage]

I think one example he gave was you could change something on your diet for something else idk.

But just know pvp isn’t going to be the main focus of the game

So allowing pachy to have good survival skills instead of simply being a killing machine is much better

[rapid flicker]

There is just no content apart from pvp right now, that might change when nesting comes along

But for now my circle is fight/die/regrow/repeat

[analog mirage]

True. Once more things come in pvp will hopefully become less of the main attraction

[hollow canyon]

#doubt

so far every non-pvp aspect of the game has been just bad and even some of the pvp aspects were questionable

[bright cargo]

Survival and pvp go hand in hand. Carnivores can't live on AI alone, and herbivores will be forced to pvp to stay alive. If it was purely survival it might as well just be a single player game.

True they can add more aspects to make the game less pvp focused, but at the end of the day in multiplayer, players want to defeat other players

[hasty coyote]

@analog mirage 3 things about your suggestion:
1: pachy rams are already guaranteed breaks on carnos if they are charged (unless the game bugs and ram doesn't count for whatever reason)
2: A solo Pachy already has extreme difficulty kill a carno with its ram damage, it costs too much stam and you're likely to run out before you get the kill. The pachy would need to hit every ram as head or body shots and never miss.
3: those changes dont help pachy do the "break and run" strat, it helps with the breaking part, but that only needs slight tweaks, running is the bad part. Tracking makes it near impossible to get a carno off of you and you need 2 breaks to guarantee escape. head fract doesnt stop carno from chasing until your're out of stam and spam biting, rib fract just makes you both even on stam, and carnos are almost as fast as a pachy with a leg fract.

[analog mirage]

So nerf tracking to have footprints show up over a longer distance and get rid of the arrow that shows which way someone went. Then give pachy more stamina to use

[hasty coyote]

basically, should help solo pachies a lot, but not make groups op

[analog mirage]

Yeah, I just feel pachy shoul be good at defending itself while not being the combat type it is rn

[hasty coyote]

to me, pachy should be a mix of "stand your ground" and "break and run". If you see a predator, stand your ground and break it if it runs at you, then kill it if its small or run away if its too big to kill

[analog mirage]

Fair enough

Although it still should be able to kill a Utah. Just not Carnos by itself

[hasty coyote]

It can, a single bash on a utah, even the tap, will break a bone and end the fight right there. It just has trouble escaping carnos after the break, but utah v pachy is pretty good atm

or you an alt swing the utah down, then charge a bash and break it while its down

[analog mirage]

Yeah that’s what I do

[hasty coyote]

you prob read this, but this and the message i replied to are the changes I want.
#balance-feedback message

[fresh laurel]

Man Carno needs that bite hitbox fixed

[alpine plover]

Yeah, I just realized

There's almost zero survival elements in this game

Once you hit adult, that's when you can "play" the game

[fresh laurel]

Whats funny is i just grew a utah while playing god of war 3 lmao

Like got food and water every so often then boom adult

Kinda wish juvies and subs had different niches than their adult selves like sub rex instead of just being a worst adult

[rapid flicker]

AFk growing is very much still a thing.

[alpine plover]

Not just the thing, it's encouraged as the most optimal way to play

[alpine plover]

Yeah, I will never recognize TI as a serious game experience until this gaping fundamental issue is resolved

[dusky surge]

i seriously hate carni growth

[tall bronze]

While this was on a basically empty server, I once grew a Tenonto while playing TF2.....

Even alone that shouldn't be possible.

[alpine plover]

I grew a Carno while cooking one time

Zero stress or punishments ingame for doing so

[half girder]

cant wait for perk system to hopefully impact perks

[dusky surge]

i should hope the perk system impacts perks

[mental roost]

I hope the perk system perks

[alpine plover]

Perks launch broken

Devs: "nah man, we gotta work on humans now bro"

[dusky surge]

the fuck are you talking about lmao

[alpine plover]

They implement fundamentally flawed mechanics that can be game breaking from design

Then proceed to prioritize new content rather than resolving the previous issue

[dusky surge]

i literally have no clue what this has to do with perks

[alpine plover]

It was a reference to diets

New fundamental mechanic left busted on the backburner for nesting/skins

Nesting/skins are cool

But it's game breaking leaving the diet system to encourage Carno's on average to grow faster than Teno's

[dusky surge]

It's not, though

It's not the best for balance but in no way is it game-breaking

[alpine plover]

I think it is game breaking when afk growing is an optimal strategy and when the strongest carnivore has the easiest, faster grow times then it's counterparts

From a balance, and gameplay loop perspective

I think it's game breaking when the SONIC and Doktor guy stated being in entirely separate activities of other games was allowed to that extent by this game's current mechanics with such leeway

[half girder]

afk = poo perks

[alpine plover]

i dont think perks are gonna solve afk tbh

[half girder]

would be nice that way

[alpine plover]

it would

Though it's in the best interest of the game to prioritize resolving the current afflicted issues rather than additions

Sooner rather than later

By tomorrow, you could have all the roster, the best map in the game's history, every creature with idealized mechanics bug free in all regards. But the current issues with low player retention/growth being terrible would still remain as game breaking

Focusing on Nesting/Skins is a great addition

But it's a mistake to prioritize additions rather than doubling down on the game's root issues.

[half girder]

they need more content though

the game will die out if they keep balancing and bug fixing constantly

[alpine plover]

They do, but the basics need to be met first

The game needs to stop crawling before it can run

[rain wraith]

not enough species yet will get better as more variety comes in

[rapid flicker]

I think bugfixing takes priority over adding new things, but eventually they will have to add something new to keep the playerbase happy

[hollow canyon]

yea well, herbivore growth isn't much different considering I've grown Tenonto and Deino simultaneously on two different servers on at least one occasion.

Typically however I just do something in the background while growng a herbivore

[dusky surge]

I honestly just think diets need to be a PART of growth, not the sole determinant

I've said it before

I will say it again

[hollow canyon]

I don't think they should affect growth at all, they should merely affect how capable you are of doing the things that you'd have to do to grow

[dusky surge]

Make the act of growing not only flexible but require more consistent engagement. Let me try different methods to reach adulthood and play into the behavioural uniqueness of my animal

[hollow canyon]

^

I just think that diets should merely effect how well your animal performs in general

[dusky surge]

I want the act of me growing to be almost like a choose your own adventure. You can choose to go down the path of diet purist, territorial beast, roamer/explorer, solo survivor or group player, depending on your animals specific needs and behaviours

Being rewarded for roaming while playing an animal like carnotaurus or utahraptor discourages AFK through requiring consistent movement to new locales to keep that growth rate high.

Being rewarded for being territorial while playing a territorial animal like say, tenonto or cerato discourages AFK through requiring consistent care to ensure your territory is not contested or taken when you let your guard down, or worse, you are killed.

Both of these activities are inherently more engaging than just eating food and sitting in a bush because you ate all the food because it encourages one of the two things people like to do in the Isle. Explore the pretty looking island with their epic dinosaur, or fight other dinosaurs with their epic dinosaur.

[frail bobcat]

But what are territories gonna do?

[dusky surge]

Be a point of contention between territorial animals (also if you own one, your dino is happier and grows faster because blah blah video game)

[frail bobcat]

Yeh happiness should be a factor in the isle. Like your dino is happy when its healthy, active, has group mates (for certain dinos) and has enough food . It would prevent afking when your dino gets debuffs if it depressed. And if a dino has a territory it get a confidence boost

[dusky surge]

And this is where we disagree

I would add a comfort system which only rewards the player for doing good actions

But never punishes the player for anything

Good thing = reward
Bad thing = less/no reward

IMHO, stress systems always suck in these games, I've never seen them done in a way that feels natural nor engaging to the player

[frail bobcat]

But the buffs have to be noticeable so afking can lose you a fight because the other dino tanks one more bite.

[dusky surge]

It always feels annoying, and leads to players feeling less like they can do what they want, and more that every server has a set of rules that they can never avoid. It strips freedom

Honestly, the only buffs I'd give for my hypothetical comfort is the rate one grows, earns perks or reaches elder. No health, no damage, no regens

[frail bobcat]

But then afking wont be prevented

[dusky surge]

If you AFK, you don't grow. Seems pretty good for that purpose to me

Dino, have you ever considered that the better way to get people to stop AFKing is not to punish AFKing, but rewarding actually engaging with the game and its systems, on top of making the act of playing engaging

[frail bobcat]

Or its at least much slower

[analog mirage]

^

[tall bronze]

VERY late to the convo but I agree growth should have all sorts of different playstyles to choose from, which I think is what the devs want mainly via perks.

However, I also like diets being the main form of growth boosts. Though in their current state.....not so much. I've actually warmed up to the idea of having perfect diets be the norm as long as there's more ways to boost growth further, which again, I believe the devs have planned. So it'd be like "yeah, you have a perfect diet, but you can also go the extra mile and get a special growth-focused diet! Or you can sacrifice growth boosts for other boosts, etc." since multiple types of boosts from diets have been discussed.

As much as people hate the idea (and to an extent, me as well) of these kinds of boosts, damage and speed boosts were mentioned in a devblog from certain diet plants that you can only have one at a time.

So do you wanna venture out and get a faster growth speed? Or go on a completely different adventure for more damage or speed or.....other stuff? 😛

Heck, even perks could help make growth more adventurous depending on how you actually get them.

[indigo vigil]

Dont think utahs will ever wanna hunt smtg that can 1 tap them ngl

they need a strong buff for that

[tall bronze]

Maybe if Utah's pounce stopped breaking for the 500th time

[hasty coyote]

@tepid swan I understand nerfing the stego hp a bit, but I would only nerf it’s blood level. Carnos should have no chance to kill a stego, they are small game hunters and shouldn’t stand a chance against an apex herbivore, even in the hordes that they shouldn’t be in. Crocs also shouldn’t win because then they would just rule the land and the water. Crocs can just hide in the water if they get hurt, stegs can’t. Crocs have no weak points, stegs have a major weakness(the head). So steg should be able to bully crocs and carnos, but they should be hunted by utahs more often. Once utah has its pounce fixed and has a larger player base, then you will see them take on stegs more often.

[hasty coyote]

Everything can 1-tap utahs

[wise sparrow]

But let's be real that might be asking too much of the devs

Utah is an absolute menace when it's pounce actually works

[hasty coyote]

Pachy can break, teno can kick and tail slam, croc and carno can just chomp, and stego can stego.

[indigo vigil]

exactly

[indigo vigil]

naw I wouldnt say so, only time I think it was a fair fighter was at the very first few updates with only tenonto and utah lol

[hasty coyote]

Honestly, they should just make hunting a steg rewarding, give 2 or even 3 diets for killing an adult, but not a baby.

[hasty coyote]

Utahs are in a pretty fair fight with most stuff, just that it requires a lot of skill, pounce not to bug, and a pack depending on the dino.

[indigo vigil]

not even skill though

client side registration doesnt let u have skill anyway

u can get hit behind someone , so you can never know if ur doing shit right or not with all that lag

and again, you get 1 tapped by anythings special attack, sometimes easily 2 tapped by more regular attacks

[hasty coyote]

I already mentioned pounce bugging, and I don’t take lag into consideration for any balance, that’s a separate issue

Everything has to deal with lag, I have hit raptors on my side as pachy and nothing happens, I have had my bash hit and make the sound, but just waste my stam and do nothing.

[half girder]

when pounce is fixed you’ll see me posting a lot of kills soon cuz these carno players are just awful

the bug with utah just kills me ontop of that the fact that carno can bite from 5+ feet away

[fresh laurel]

I managed to land 6 alt bites to a carno (pounce still bugged) and out of the 6 attacks the carno landed 2 tail tip hits lmao

Just sad how braindead carno players are

[half girder]

jesus

yeah i was bullying like 4 adult carnos

[fresh laurel]

Can out run anything and engage anything

I remember killing 2 carnos as a duo utah pack lmao

[half girder]

if they take away that dumb ass 10 second stun window for pachy too

[wise sparrow]

I feel like carno is so plentiful because its playstyle is literally just "run in a straight line"
It's so simple so literally anyone can pick it up and do okay. Big problem is that carno is the apex predator

[half girder]

carnos just don’t get punished enough

[fresh laurel]

Either add more skill to carno or make its juvie stage a bit harder...

[half girder]

and it being able to charge forever as juvie is just..

[fresh laurel]

Breh momento

[half girder]

very realism

[fresh laurel]

I hear the charge duration for juvie is due to devs wanting juvie carno to not be easy carno food but... why only give juvie carno that

What about the rats juvie utah

[half girder]

bruh wot

[hasty coyote]

Carnos have everything going for them: fast, big, strong, ez diets and grow, and lag and hitboxes favor them

[half girder]

who cares that’s thier fault

[fresh laurel]

Imo nerf juvie carno charge stam lol

[half girder]

trusting other carnos when you’re on thier diet bruh

that shit should decay super fast after like 5 seconds of using it

[hasty coyote]

Plus baby carnos can break a pachy’s ribs with the ram interaction

[half girder]

facts

i was like wtf

[fresh laurel]

I remember making a "friend" with decently bigger than me juvie carno when i was a juvie utah...
Long story short the carno tries to kill me (i gave him several chances to be forgiven) only for me to end up clapping him

[half girder]

carno neck should snap and die

[fresh laurel]

Sad part is there were 5 dead nutrients

So carno attacked and died for nothing

[hasty coyote]

Baby, yeah. The adult interaction is good tho, I like it

[half girder]

oh yeah

[fresh laurel]

Juvie teno stunning adult utah

People complain on juvie utah giving bleed but not that...

[hasty coyote]

I have seen like a juvie pachy (40-60%) break a Utah’s leg with the first bash lol

[fresh laurel]

Pretty dumb

What happened to fractures not being rng

[hasty coyote]

They aren’t

Unless you consider lag

[fresh laurel]

Feels like it

[hasty coyote]

Lag just ruins a lot

[fresh laurel]

I get bone break first try and another i dont

[hasty coyote]

I can generally get the break I want when I bash things, except utah because their speed and hitboxes make it inconsistent.

[fresh laurel]

Anyways am i the only one who thinks stego can protect its head a bit too good?...

[hasty coyote]

I haven’t tested stego’s hitboxes recent, no reason to fight or even go near them as pachy lol, but update 3 I was getting hit on the opposite side while being in front of them

[fresh laurel]

Im talking more as in their swipe being able to protect their head no worries

Think stego should be encouraged to actually turn around more causing it to be more open as it turns

[hasty coyote]

Yeah it’s a bit much, but I will need to see once utahs have a functional pounce how the matchup goes, then decide if it still needs a nerf

[fresh laurel]

Well pounce was fine in 3.75

[hasty coyote]

Wasn’t that also the bugged log time? I didn’t play then

[fresh laurel]

It was the bugged log

[golden coral]

Stego could probably turn more if it had the ability to attack while turning/moving.

[fresh laurel]

Wdym

[golden coral]

Well, if you want stego to turn more instead of having a long reaching jab, then giving it the ability to attack while turning/walking and so on would be helpful

[fresh laurel]

Attacking while turning shouldnt really be a thing unless its an alt attack

[fresh laurel]

Also im just saying that its jab protecting its head this good gotta be reduced a bit

Would force them to turn more

[golden coral]

Walk turn might work

[fresh laurel]

No... unless its a alt attack

[golden coral]

Yes and I'm saying that turning more while not being able to attack is not really good

[fresh laurel]

You mean like every playable?

[golden coral]

Just need a proper "legacy" swing that can be used while moving (at least walking, not running, maybe trotting)

[fresh laurel]

Theres a attack delay

When you turn

[golden coral]

Except every other animal can attack on the move, if you're talking about walking. Turning on the spot, sure, but I did say "walk turn"

As in, turning while walking.. :p

[fresh laurel]

If you mean giving it a weaker yet faster attack then yea

[golden coral]

Yeah sure, it can do about half as much as current, that'd work fine, it's meant to deal with the AoE-focused things. Meanwhile you can keep a stationary "jab" for power vs the other apexes. Though a rear swing would be nice, so you can walk away from said apexes easier.

[fresh laurel]

Nooo rear swing

[golden coral]

Current stego is just.. not ideally designed for a stego, and not ideally designed to survive in the long run from how things look. Problem is, it's a matter of mechanics/abilities, rather than stats

[fresh laurel]

Stil gotta make stego vs other apexes a challenge

[golden coral]

Yes, rear swing so you can walk away from a rex while keeping it at bay or forcing it to go way around so you can turn and threaten that way

[fresh laurel]

No rear swing since you basically got PoT combat...

[golden coral]

Otherwise it'll just power through and chomp that stupidly vunerable head :p

[fresh laurel]

You cant walk through stego lol

[golden coral]

I'm not sure how having a rear swing suddenly makes it PoT combat, not that I know much of what happens over there but still :p

I said power through the other jabs, which it will if stego remains stationary

Not "run through"

[fresh laurel]

A thing like rex would still be forced to attack your behind normally

[golden coral]

As in ,you just run up to the stego and chomp away, if it does not have the ability to keep you at bay, unless you want to give stego even more damage or something, or give rex relatively low damage I guess.

[fresh laurel]

Basically you take like no dmg while the victim takes heavy dmg

And being spammy is more pain

[golden coral]

Yeah but.. here's the thing. Since the stego is forced to be stationary, you just take one tailjab or two to your legs/side, then you're at the head, and now stego dies

[fresh laurel]

Stego can already protect its back well anyways lmao

[golden coral]

Hence why being able to move and threaten is important

[fresh laurel]

Aka legacy swipe

Just lower dmg

[golden coral]

I'd give stego four kinds of attacks, one full AoE swing/sweep, low damage (well, still oneshotting small stuff), one specific side angle powerful "jab", meant to deal with larger things that gets too close and don't avoid in time. The usual bite for tiny stuff, and a rear oriented swing/wiggle to use while moving away from scary stuff.

[fresh laurel]

Stego should be having issues protecting its head just like trike will protecting its back
Stego already accels at protecting its tail and head when it should have issues protecting its head

[golden coral]

Which fits with the whole four attacks, two normal and two alt ones

[fresh laurel]

What good is a bigger dmg multiplier against stego if it can keep you at bay with 1k dmg

[golden coral]

And what good is that when the other guy can take plenty of those and dish out plenty in return? :p

Which is the point, for now all is well, but when we get the other apexes, it might not be so

[fresh laurel]

Carno,utah and deino have 3 lol

[golden coral]

Of course that depends on what stats are given to them

[fresh laurel]

Dryo is 2...

[fresh laurel]

Dont think anything is gonna be tanking swipes lmao

[golden coral]

Yes, and teno has four. I was counting on the whole four being the "max" you can have without adding stuff. As in, you can give something up to four attacks and make it work with normal and alt.

Maybe, maybe not

[fresh laurel]

Deino already has 8k hp and strugles against 1k constant dmg

[golden coral]

Depends on how heavy/healthy rex and giga comes in at

Ah yes, but deino also struggles with movement, turn, and everything on land

[fresh laurel]

Giga aint passing 7 tons at best

[golden coral]

Not its.. you know, ideal ground to fight on

I don't see a rex or giga be less agile honestly

[fresh laurel]

Weight equals hp and if rex has 6k hp its gonna die in 6 hits...

[golden coral]

Well I can't speak on how large those guys will be, but I'm sure someone who knows can help out if they see this :p

[fresh laurel]

Stego can turn around to keep its tail at the apexes... if the apex reach the head then thats stego fault

[golden coral]

Well, quick look on wikia says between 8-14T for rex :p

And up to 13 for a giga.

[fresh laurel]

This game isnt accurate to high levels lol

[golden coral]

So you know.. they're heavier than stego is at the very least, and stego comes in at 7, potentially 8T these days, anky is even heavier

[fresh laurel]

And we arent having a 14k hp rex or giga

[golden coral]

They do aim for accurate sizes, more or less

Though no, I dobut we'll get that large, except for shant

But I have no doubt stego will be the "weakest" in terms of weight/health and all of all the apexes we have, unless Im missing someone that can count as an apex

[fresh laurel]

Stop using the paleo weights... use the isles chart

[golden coral]

Which are going by those weights, more or less

[fresh laurel]

They arent

[stark knoll]

What Isle chart?

[golden coral]

Novas I guess

[fresh laurel]

Novas

[stark knoll]

Nova's chart is unofficial and is based on IRL estimates

[sonic flame]

Novas... which is mostly Paleo weights...

[fresh laurel]

14 ton rex...

💀

[stark knoll]

Almost entirely paleo weights

[golden coral]

As I said, and yes, it's unofficial, but last I've heard we're aiming for more or less accurate sizes

[stark knoll]

I have not once heard of a credible estimate for a 14T rex

[golden coral]

Now I doubt they're going to go with extreme sizes unless it fits

[fresh laurel]

Thats why im confused

[sonic flame]

yep that sure is a 14 ton rex on Nova's chart

[golden coral]

But my point was more so that I'm pretty sure rex and giga are decently larger than stego, and unlike a deino, is more suited for land combat

[wise sparrow]

Pretty sure rex averaged around 8-9 tons yes?

[stark knoll]

Approximately

[fresh laurel]

Gonna be hard for them to get to stego head unless ambushing

[golden coral]

Yeah, I wasn't implying we're getting extremely large things, and I did say wikia. I mostly pointed out that they're going to be larger than stego, and will be able to attack it more efficiently than a deino on land can, unless .. reasons I guess

[golden coral]

Unless they can indeed "power through" and kill the stego before it can, since again, it's stationary as of right now

[fresh laurel]

I just find it hard for the chonkster rex to get to stego head

[wise sparrow]

Ambush

[golden coral]

Maybe, but I doubt it'll have a harder time than deino at least :p

[fresh laurel]

Im talking about in a already happening fight

[fresh laurel]

Deino shouldnt really be going on land anyways really

[wise sparrow]

Tough shit then.
Rex shouldn't be brawling animals with such high damage output

[golden coral]

Right you are. Just using it since you mentioned deinos being 8T and struggling

Just saying, a rex at 8T is probably going to do better than deino on land when it comes to fighting

[fresh laurel]

Thats why i think stego wont be getting power passed lol

[wise sparrow]

Power passed?

[fresh laurel]

Power throughed

[golden coral]

Basically what the risk could be is that a rex can run through one or two swipes while getting to the head, and then the stego is locked in movement and can not get away from the big chomper.

[fresh laurel]

Yet rex prob would be slow or horrible stam...

[wise sparrow]

Well if we keep this 6 ton stego with one stationary attack I could see rex just bite spamming the head

[golden coral]

Have you met legacy rex? :p

Horrible stam, sure, but you can't say it's slow on the attack :p

[fresh laurel]

Legacy rex fought legacy stego not evrima stego

Tbf

[wise sparrow]

There is no way rex will be slower than stego

[golden coral]

And we've no reason to believe Evrima rex is not going to be a fast ambusher

[fresh laurel]

Thats why i said bad stam could be an issue

[golden coral]

Yes and no, survival rex is not "prog" rex, but we still have "prog" stego back there

[fresh laurel]

Stego again could keep turning its back to rex

[golden coral]

I was just pointing out that our latest, active iteration, of rex, is not a slow endurance hunter like way back

[wise sparrow]

I really hope we get ambush rex and not "I walk up to things and bite" like legacy

[golden coral]

While not being able to attack, thus doing nothing much?

[fresh laurel]

Thats what ambush rex would be though...

Unless rex is body slamming crap

[golden coral]

Which is the issue I'm pointing out. Stego can turn all it wants, but if it cant also make distance, or somehow make the other thing back off, it will still get chomped to death most likely

[wise sparrow]

If you let the trike know you are coming and try to fight it head in you should die

[golden coral]

Hence why I want a stego that goes "I will walk away from you now, do not follow or else"

[fresh laurel]

Rex burns through stam as you take tail hits

[wise sparrow]

A lot of rex's prey have really good defenses that might require ambush to get past

[fresh laurel]

Basically just legacy swipe lol

[golden coral]

Ah yes, because trotting next to the stego head will take much stamina. And it'll reach your head, like a deino does, but be able to both keep up, bite, and possibly tank more than then deino at that.

[fresh laurel]

You can turn without doing the weird big turn animation

Not sure on rexes stats for evrima lmao

[golden coral]

Well yes, as one alternative attack at least. But we'll see how it turns out. In any case stego really should be getting more proper attacks :p

[fresh laurel]

Could be fast trot or slow trot

[golden coral]

Yes you can turn, but every time you attack, you stand still

[fresh laurel]

Not even sure if rex is keeping the 1200 dmg

[golden coral]

Well, probably not that much

But I'm guessing it'll get a little more than deino at least :p

[fresh laurel]

Prob 800 dmg

At least thats what i want

[golden coral]

Though it could be fun to see deino and rex mains arguing over who should bite the hardest

[fresh laurel]

1k dmg should be alt bite tbh

[golden coral]

Also I would prefer a stego that is more bleeder than damage. Leave the raw damage for the trike xD

[fresh laurel]

Yessss

But stego slow and phat

Aint bleeding things out anytime soon

[golden coral]

It is slow yes, as it should be. Run is.. eh, not a fan of it xD

True, but at least bleed now does other fancy effects, that + the whole being able to move away

[fresh laurel]

Maybe if its bleed was so bad that you can notice the blood dropping hard

[golden coral]

@fresh laurelMaybe. I do hope they do something more with bleed in general. And as for now, I think stego is okay, but I truly believe it's greatest issues are not stat related, but mechanic/ability related. And also because honestly, it needs to be more fun to fight as stego. And standing next to each other, spamming the quick jab (also why is that so stupidly fast, are we doing legacy galli kick again?!), isn't really interesting. Not vs another stego, not vs deino, and well, not in general. I can appreciate the whole "defensive tank" thing, but I believe all combat get more fun when you do have some mobility options as well.

[fresh laurel]

Stego body slam ayo

But fr could stego really swipe that fast? As in the amount of time before it can swipe again

Also rn bleed really only seems to benefit mobile playables since tankier ones are forced to go into a pure close combat fight

[golden coral]

I sincerely doubt it could. And even if it could, I think it's a bad idea. It just.. really means there's this one angle you pretty much have to use, which also kind of limits the ability to do any form of "push and pull" in a fight. Or so it seems to me at least, but maybe I'm missing something.

Deinos need some help on that front too. At least last I checked, deino vs deino isn't that.. interesting really.

[fresh laurel]

Maybe more grab limbs mechanics?

And the other deino has to do a short of buck or something

Plus devs could look at today alligator vs alligator for ideas?

[golden coral]

Maybe. I've not thought about it too much, but I'm pretty sure something is needed to make it a bit more engaging and fun. And that could work, I had an idea with some sort of "block" with the mouth open or something, so you can't just facetank each other. I just want some more movement there too, not just whoever gets the first bite, and/or does some "trickery" wins.

[hollow canyon]

I'm just going to add that Nova's chart uses paleoaccurate weights for most animals of whose sizes we were not informed by the devs in one way or anoter, HOWEVER Rex and Giga are kept smaller than their potential highest estimates.

Rex's current estimate is 11t

That's for Scotty

Giga is a bit more tricky because there's some talk about how wide the torsos of Carcharodontosaurids were(all the big derived Carchs like Giga, Tyrannotitan and Carcha are currently based off of Acrocanthosaurus which is separated from them by some 15 million years) so it's quite debatable how large they actually are but the higher estimate based of Bates et al. 2012 would put Giga at 9-9.3t

That's for the paratype btw.

[white cove]

@mint rain it's not a glass cannon, it's a fragile pack hunter :/

Hard to balance though because if it's strong alone then a pack is too oppressive, and if its only viable in packs then to solo is a chore

[rapid flicker]

It is sort of a glass cannon tho. Since 1 mistake can take you to the character select screen.

[white cove]

I guess relative to other things its size it does deal a lot of damage

I think once pounce is less wonky it's numbers are fine as is

[rapid flicker]

Agreed, Utah has enough mobility to cover the lack of any defence/health

[long oriole]

once pounce works consistently utah will be bliss

[rapid flicker]

@river rover I guess you never played any small dinosaur? 8 is fine for a group. But i guess you want it to benefit stego/deino/carno. In that case; No, we need to prevent those megapacks as much as we can

[silk harness]

I agree that Utah's stats are fine once pounce is fixed, but I do think it needs some tweaks to its hitbox too. More so than with any other dino, I often get hit from far away when I shouldn't. The reverse is also true, as I often get tail hit/not hit when I really should have died.

[vocal minnow]

I think utah pounce will have a problem after every update

[lone yoke]

Isn’t “something breaking after every update” the reason for Evrima?

[hasty coyote]

Yep…

[slim dragon]

The reason for evrima was everything breaking after every update

[lone yoke]

Should Dino’s be balanced via their 1v1 potential or at their pack limit. Or maybe half the pack limit. I’m not sure how to suggest feedback because 8 utahs is wildly more effective than 1.

[wise sparrow]

It's weird because if you balance off of groups then solos because useless

It's why I loathe balanceing herbivores on herds.
We just need more solo/small group oriented dinos

[frail bobcat]

ich was in a pack of ten utahs today. some were just not in our group

[silk harness]

I'm pretty sure the devs have said they don't balance dinos around 1v1s. I'm not sure which is the right way to go but I feel you need a little of both. Solos should at least have the option to escape anything they can't reasonably fight, which is pretty much the current state of the game. Even if everything is slower than carno, they have other ways to escape (utah's agility, hypsi's blind, pachy's legbreak, anything that can jump onto rocks)

[frail bobcat]

Haha Logs go brrr

[silk harness]

The problem rn comes with dinos like Teno that are strong enough to 1v1 Carno, and so they aren't given many ways to escape. This is fine on paper, but it makes them really bad to play solo since you have to deal with constant Carno megapacks, so you cant 1vX

[frail bobcat]

i think carnos should hunt in duos or trios

[silk harness]

They tried to do that since Carno's pack limit is 3, but ofc people don't really abide by that. I think it will be much better in the future when there's more playables and 25% of the players on a server aren't Carnos

[frail bobcat]

DEVSSSSSSS! Add 69 more species, so there are less carnos players

[hasty coyote]

By the 1v1 I think they meant like flat area to the death. Not that solo dinos shouldn’t be viable

It’s kind of why we have these carno megapacks. It’s easier to grow and play carno, and it’s stronger and faster than most the roster. If other dinos had a better chance surviving a 1v1, then people would play them more and lessen these megapacks

[old hull]

also carno is a big land carnivore , and the only "big" land carnivore playable so naturally everyone plays it constantly

carno could be the weakest dino on the roster and you will still see them everywhere

[fresh laurel]

@solemn sequoia heres a problem...

what if said megapack are trying to hunt you?

like would that mean you get punished for still respecting pack limits?

I mean I dont think anything stops a megapack from having some members fall back to avoid the disease while the rest try their best to kill you... and if they fail then the members who fell back will be ready to try to kill you too

[dusky surge]

@frail bobcat that makes killsquad megapacks even better

go around, fight everything you see, if one of you does die, just eat them, get two nutrients, keep going with no problems

[frail bobcat]

Ye your right, didnt think this through

[dusky surge]

you see a carno that you don't want in your megapack? cannibalise him since there's no way he can win, eat him, entire megapack got great nutrients, keep going

[mental roost]

Cannibalism already lets the giant Carno population sustain itself May as well add more fuel to the flame.

Could make some nice fire roasted marshmallows with that.

[alpine plover]

Carno really shouldn't be a cannibal

Making it a cannibal caused a perverse reversed outcome

[hasty coyote]

Carno being cannibal isn’t bad, there’s just too many of them so they can reliably just eat their ally’s bodies rather than killing each other before they become allies

[alpine plover]

I disagree

Them being a cannibal allows them to overpack

It doesn't further drive competition, nor does it drive the "Well, killing more carnos means you get benefits so you should kill them"

[hollow canyon]

@alpine ploverI really wouldn't be opposed to herbivores spawning with more nutrients to have a perfect diet for longer upon spawning in but... do you seriously consider Tenonto as hard to grow right now? I generally take as long to grow a Teno as I do to grow a Carno - not that this is a good thing per se, Tenonto should grow faster. Or did you mean by "outliers" that Pachy and Tenonto are the only ones that are easy to grow?

Also - idk how you can stop having a perfect diet once you get it once as a Tenonto? That takes some next level incompetence tbh.

I don't think I've ever had that happen.

[alpine plover]

With outliers I meant the ones rather harder to grow.
I'm not saying they are down right super hard to grow, but still harder.

You have to travel, quite literally, from one side of the map to the other. Which takes a rather long time as a "slow" baby. In all of this time you also grow slower, and means you are generally weaker. And growing slower also means you take longer to get stronger. In the rather long time it takes you just to travel from one side of the map any carnivore could already be over +50% and have an easy time just picking you off due to the sheer strength difference.

Stego being hard to grow because it IS slow and all its food is primarily in the open I do not have an issue with, though. (Because fuck stego)

[hollow canyon]

Yea that travel is the reason why I take as long to grow a Teno as I do to grow a Carno.

[dusky surge]

I wish deino growth was at least a bit more like stego growth, it actually feels hard to grow an apex, god forbid

[hollow canyon]

And I've always thought that Stego is the hardest thing to grow right now just cause of how slow it is

[alpine plover]

It is, and that's good

[hollow canyon]

not that I've tried, I'm allergic to Stego gameplay

I've grown it once when it came out and said - never again

[alpine plover]

But you still essentially get punished as the herbivore. I mean hell, by the time I get my 3rd nutrient I'm basically already 50% or so(Pachy)

[dusky surge]

I actually like how stego feels like an achievement to grow. Nerfing it defeats the point imho, an adult stego should feel strong, it's a reward for surviving literally everything

[alpine plover]

Killed a Steggie just a few mins ago

[dusky surge]

I do wish carnis were at least a bit harder so that they felt like their herbi counterparts

[hollow canyon]

idk about Pachy, I don't play it since it's really bad solo, but on Teno the diets basically delay having the normal growth time by some ~15-20 minutes

[calm ibex]

i have grown 3 stegos this update and i enjoy it, doing 3 diets actually requires some knowledge to pull off without dying
1 diet on the other hand....

[hollow canyon]

You also really, really shouldn't be losing the perfect diet as Teno once you get it up, unless you do something really stupid

[alpine plover]

My issue with teno is, is how fast it gets food compared to nutrients

[hollow canyon]

I think every animal gets them at the same rate?

[alpine plover]

Doesn't feel like it to me.

[hollow canyon]

I've never had that issue in general

[alpine plover]

To me Teno gets A LOT of food when small

As many of the other creatures I can ez just overfill nutrients, as teno that's abit harder

[hollow canyon]

Pretty sure it gets the normal amount, usually when I spawn in I get my nutrients up to some 270%+ with ease

it's basically 1:3 ratio

of food to nutrient

for any animal that isn't a juvie Carnivore

Herbivores are all about efficiency in general, I do think that lettimg them spawn in with 40-50% of nutrients is actually a really good idea as long as you keep their food as low as it is atm

[alpine plover]

I mean, I also kinda think plants should give you less food overall tbh

[hollow canyon]

If you were to raise their starting food too then I'd be definitely against that since it would be a nerf as far as I'm concerned

[alpine plover]

I actually prefer having low food

[hollow canyon]

I think everybody does

ngl it's so dumb that the game actually wants you to have low food

but well, I'm not gonna go on a tangent about how awful diets are imo

[hasty coyote]

They should either buff herbie diets to make it easier, or nerf carni diets to make it harder. Otherwise it’s easier to grow predators than prey, which is not good balance

[alpine plover]

But yeah. I believe plants should give less food to adult herbs.

I mean holy shit. 8 Tenos feeding off of 1 single Mountain Ash and all getting completely filled is fuckin' ridiculous

[hollow canyon]

I'd definitely buff herbi diets

The idea that you should run across the whole map as a fresh spawn is just mental

[alpine plover]

I think once U6 rolls out(hopefully with some new biomes) we can return to the "Biome" Diet

[dusky surge]

I'd also nerf carni diets tbh

The fact you can afk on one turtle pisses me off

So fucking much

[alpine plover]

But how would you nerf it

[hollow canyon]

My gameplay as Teno has been based on changing my keybindings to have it so that I can just put something on space(forward button) toggle sprint and then go read something

fascinating gameplay

absolutely thrilling

[hasty coyote]

Here’s my idea: both baby carnis and herbies just have to eat something on their diet to get all 3 nutrients up to like 30%

[alpine plover]

I just auto-sprint through the map lmao

[hollow canyon]

gotta love turning the game into an even more of a walking simulator

[hollow canyon]

yea same

[alpine plover]

But yeah, what do you guys think about having plants give less food?

[hollow canyon]

No opinion tbh, it isn't the issue with herbivores

the issue is having to sprint across the whole map as a fresh spawn

[dusky surge]

How I'd do it is have it that only food that are on the animal's diet give all 3 nutrients. If your animal doesn't eat it, it doesn't need it. Also, this "headstart" buff would last till 25%, not 50%, and would apply to both herbivores and carnivores.

[hollow canyon]

once I make it through the map easy perfect diet 24/7 from that point onwards

[alpine plover]

No that's not what I meant.

It's mainly to actually make herbs compete more

[hollow canyon]

either way, I'm gonna take my leave, off to work I go

[alpine plover]

Okay

[hasty coyote]

@dusky surge same idea let’s go lol

[dusky surge]

25% better because it won't fuck with my OCD

(the OCD I pretend to have)

[alpine plover]

Once diets are fleshed out I'd like for there to be less diet plants around an area, and them also giving less food(despawning quicker)

[hasty coyote]

I’d be fine with that if they weren’t so far apart. If they just had like multiple spots for most the plants to spawn, like teno can get all 3 diets at SE, then they deplete and you have to move to NW for more

That way they migrate without having to run back and forth as a baby

[alpine plover]

Well, with fleshed out I also mean return to the "biome" diet

[hasty coyote]

Then yeah, unless they mess it up again

[alpine plover]

Lmao xD

[hasty coyote]

I don’t want another oasis, I would like 3-5 hot spots on the map that were good for different Dino diets and had different safeties and weaknesses. Such as a rocky area that pachies could climb on for safety, but diet is a bit far so you’re vulnerable during that time.

[alpine plover]

I would like more biomes

And an actual good jungle biome

[hasty coyote]

That too, we got 3, but swamp isn’t used much (except the dam atm) and jungles are green hell

[vocal minnow]

the dam should be removed

herbis are abusing it

[dusky surge]

the one advantage herbivores have

[vocal minnow]

a stego can just place himsel on an end and you cant do anyhting same goes for teno

yesterday i was in a group of 8 utahs and suddenly 1 teno and 1 pachy came there we almost killed both untill they jumped up the dam

[hasty coyote]

This is the reason why I made this post and the one I replied to: #general-feedback message

[dusky surge]

ive just started downvoting lists at this point lmao

[sage hill]

In regards to the one about cannibalizing, no, that's not gonna happen. Cannibalism is needed for certain dinosaurs. Carnos and Deinos are great for cannibalism, imo. Keeps the numbers down and prevents overpacking, though most tend to ignore it anyways because it's not an important diet piece. But yeah, cannibalism is needed to prevent overpopulation for stronger carnis.

[slim dragon]

It doesn't really work on carno, tho
Cause carno megapacks can just feed on their dead and keep going

But yeah, some species being cannibalistic makes perfect sense.

[sage hill]

Which is why there needs to be stronger overpacking negation and, preferably, cannibalism to be put on a more dire diet piece. But I agree with you, the way it is now doesn't really work as much.

[valid helm]

I see what you mean. And I see that at the current state of development cannibalism as preferred diet is basically Batman (the thing about what we need, but not what we deserve etc).

But in the long run there should be something else in place that keeps the population at bay.

[slim dragon]

Cannibalism is fine for certain species at any point of the game

It's a matter of gameplay as much as anything else

[hasty coyote]

I just want them to add better intra-species combat mechanics rather than “I bit first so I win”. Like how pachies have the jousting mechanic

[valid helm]

I don't say anything against cannibalism. It should not be on the diet plan, that's my only point. Gaining food from your own species is fine and makes sense. But atm it is needed as there is no actual competition to Carno and Deino. With predators ig able to take on them with a 50/50 chance of winning under any circumstances there would be no need for cannibalism to serve as a population regulator and therefore no point to encourage it.
It is still a survival game and survival isn't a matter of high risk-high reward. More like low risk-any reward.

[slim dragon]

I don't get your point. Deino and carno cannibalize because it makes sense for them to do so, and it adds a bit of difficulty to the growth of otherwise extremely easy-to-grow animals. There is no reason to remove such mechanics right now.

[rapid flicker]

I think the cannibalism on carno's actually prevents them from going down in numbers. Here's an example: say a group of 3 carnos is hunting a deino. 1 carno dies and deino is badly hurt. No reason for the 2 carnos to continue the fight because they can eat their friend and get the nutrients. Where as if carno wasnt on their diets they were forced to continue to fight the deino to get the nutrients. Same when hunting utahs.

[analog mirage]

The cannibalism is good but also bad. It really just depends on the situation

It’s good for the short term but it doesn’t work in the long term when mega packs feed off of fallen friends

Add a system where after you eat a certain amount of a specific food source you’ll get tired of that one food source and want more to prevent herbis staying in one area and eating one plant.

Or prevent deinos esting constant fish, or Carnos eating constant Carnos

[hasty coyote]

That’s what the diet system is basically already doing. If you only eat 1 food then you only get 1 nutrient and worse stats than somebody who has been crossing the map.

[analog mirage]

It might affect stats, however have you really ever seen diets affect much else? A mega pack of carnos can still destroy a lot even on 1 nutrient

[solemn sequoia]

you wouldn't as I doubt you'd stay close enough to them for that long if they hunted you for 1 as I'd assume you'd either fight back or run which I doubt would keep you in the range for the time it would take to get the diseases, for 2 they could but unless its a huge coordinated group in a vc having people fall back further to avoid diseases is going to be annoying as it'll prove hard to coordinate that much over local chat. if its a coordinated vc then at least they are forced to keep away from each other making them far more vulnerable then if they were all in close proximity from the start

[fresh laurel]

Escape would still be a pretty hard option since tracking and being your speed
Also what if you were a 8 pack utah pack and a rando jerk decided to keep following your pack to make sickness start

[rose ether]

if herbi diets are made easier to obtain then they need to be made easier to kill. carnos grow fast and easy but they also die fast and easy. if herbi growth becomes much easier than a pachy and teno shouldnt wipe packs of raptors with ease.

cant have the best of both worlds, the hard growth balances how op they are as adults

[hollow canyon]

I'd say that Teno is mostly balanced as an adult, I'd even say that it has a tad too high stamina costs for the damage output of its attacks.

Pachy and Utah are both just buggy pieces of garbage

Pachy is pretty trash solo, can be soloed by Utah but it's not an easy fight for the raptor(and highly reliant on Utah not bugging out)

in groups it becomes much more formidable, the same is the case for Utah but again - it's buggy which has a negative effect on its effectiveness

I don't think any animal is necessarily OP as an adult atm, although I'd say that Stego's case is... debatable

[fresh laurel]

Doesnt Pachy alt attack (when it works) counter Utah hard?

[half girder]

yes, utah speed + visual bug makes it hard

wastes ur stam for false hits

[fresh laurel]

lmao this game...

My pc blue screened when I won a Utah 1v1 as a Utah

[fresh laurel]

Fix desync
More fps fixes
Hitbox revamp
everything fixed now :D

except collision needs fixing to fix pounce

[tranquil pawn]

Aren't Utah 1v1 just hold right click and pin them to death? Also mega oof

[fresh laurel]

I was 1v1ing someone with a no pounce fight and right when I won the blue screen came lmao

[tranquil pawn]

Oh daaang, sucks man

[pallid loom]

Pretty sure every animal has bucking

[somber sphinx]

Yep, every animal has a buck, exept hypsi

[tranquil pawn]

no, when pounced every animal has bucking, a hypsi would have bucking but its small enough to be pinned by juvie utah, if your pinned there's nothing you can do, holding e doesn't do crap, so if a utah pounces another utah it's game over because there is no counterplay to being pinned

[somber sphinx]

Basically Yeah

[hollow canyon]

Yes it does, you typically have to stay on the defensive as a Utah in my experience and wait for Pachy to miss the ram to pounce it.

[old hull]

just prepare yourself for a very inconsistant attack when using pachys alt , its basically a coinflip on when it wants to land or not

then again isnt that pachy in general lol

[hasty coyote]

Yeah, alt is a bit slow so utahs can dodge it, whether intentionally or not, and ram is just a coin flip on whether the server decides there’s too much lag for your hit to count or not

[stray venture]

@hushed robin That problem you outlined is mainly due to there not being many things to do once you reach ad. Once stuff like nesting elders and more things to do are added yes you will still see kos but much less of it.

[wise sparrow]

Not to mention you were complaining that carno, the plains based predator, couldn't fight the much slower pachy in a forest

[hushed robin]

That is very true. But there can always be something lurking around the corner even on plains… I just don't want that to be pachys. Last time I died, it was because I found a dead body near a tree line as a carno - dumb that I fell for the trick. It's just annoying to see pachys ambushing me rather than a group of utahs. but again you are right about that...

[wise sparrow]

I mean take one look at Africa and you will realize herbivores are absolute bastards

In nature herbivores will chase down carnivores for no apparent reason

[hollow canyon]

yea but not if that carnivore is 4 times their size

in general Carno has no place in the forest but I wouldn't use irl to justify Pachys attacking Carnos because irl it just wouldn't happen

[wise sparrow]

I mean if I'm in a bush and a carno is walking right by me, imma bonk it. There are plenty of small animals that use overt aggression to survive

[hushed robin]

The problem is not them defending because I got too close (that would be very fair.) They baited me to get over with a corpse just outside the tree line, and one of them appeared and bonked me once and that was basically the end of my carno. I didn't have the option to run anymore because my leg was broken. That is my only two problems.

[wise sparrow]

That's just a byproduct of people being the ones controlling them

You cant force a person to play a very specific way

[hushed robin]

that is true. But the problem will still remain

[hasty coyote]

I understand getting ambushed by herbies is annoying, but a nerf to the headbutt will likely just remove solo pachies entitely, we need to break and run, pachies have trouble breaking, but that’s not in a bad spot. The issue is tracking afterwards. If you nerf headbutt, then pachy has nothing to defend itself against carnos.

The issue is not with pachy, it’s with people.

[alpine plover]

can attest to this. even pachies that arent out to murder everything out of boredom know they need to play overly aggressive for self defense. every pachy thats tried to run, ive been able to track down

[hasty coyote]

Exactly, pachy goes by the rule: the best defense is a good offense.
Granted, that bait to kill was just bloodlust

[frail flicker]

My main issue with pachies isnt their damage, it's their numbers, they just ambush and take turns bashing your knees in with a lead pipe, which I honestly think the numbers will be fixed once more Dino's and even humans are added, so for now we just gotta pay our pachy mafia so we can eat lol

[hollow canyon]

I'd totally do the same thing if I were them tbh

I don't think Pachy numbers are an issue

Pachy based on what I've been told performs rather poorly lest it has some companions with it

duo allegedly they can take a Carno on

quite reliably at that

[frail flicker]

Yeah, the times I died to pachies it's been atleast 8 or 6 of them

[hasty coyote]

Carno hordes grow up to that number too

[hollow canyon]

I personally think that Pachy should probably have an easier time applying the leg fracture, Carno should be worse(much worse) at tracking but Pachy should not be very lethal to Carno

[hollow canyon]

That is probably the biggest balance issue atm

[winged narwhal]

@hushed robin all animals can be slaughter machines given the right mindset of the player(s)

[frail flicker]

Well yeah, everythings got a pop problem, even Utah's can grow upwards to 12 13 members, which is why when more Dino's get added I think the issues we have for these large consentration of specific Dino's will die off

[hollow canyon]

Not really, you're not slaughtering much as a Hypsi/Dryo atm

[alpine plover]

they should disable an animal + run rather than bludgeon something to death w raw damage, but having a nasty 'bite' is a great deterrent

[hollow canyon]

Yea that's what I'm thinking too

[hasty coyote]

My main thing is I hate balancing Dinos around being in a horde, that just makes solo unviable and thus people go to a different dino, but then that Dino gets hordes

[alpine plover]

ive died a good 4 times to, over the course of weeks, pachy groups hiding in the bushes while a dryo friend baits carnis/lonely herbis in, so the pachies can kill it. lol

[hollow canyon]

Idk how to do it though, I'd say that perhaps lowering their damage on the ram attack along with lowering its stamina cost could maybe work?

[hasty coyote]

That’s generally what I want too, but if you run into a group of pachies alone, ur likely not coming back out.

[hollow canyon]

preferably Pachy would have two attacks with around the same stamina cost - one for CCing and fracturing and another for dealing damage

[hasty coyote]

That’s basically alt vs ram atm, but it doesn’t have any major damage for larger targets

[hollow canyon]

This way you could somewhat reliably fracture and CC a Carno but you wouldn't be able to dish out a significant amount of damage without it biting your head off

You could do it in a pair with one of you CCing it and the other dishing out the damage

but that'd be just a job well done imo if the Pachys can coordinate like that

[hollow canyon]

ik, that's the issue ram does more damage than alt

[wise sparrow]

I personally think that pachy shouldn't be forced to run away, but its main damage dealer shouldn't have stun

[hasty coyote]

If they can, I’d lower the raw damage on the ram, increase running stam, and nerf tracking

[alpine plover]

ive seen it stated that they prefer not to constantly balance the roster, atm, bc constantly changing it is a big hassle or sum, when theyre probably gonna change it again anyway when 10 more dinos come out

[hasty coyote]

Ram NEEDS a stun, otherwise it’s gets killed for hitting a ram

[hollow canyon]

10 more dinos will be out years from now at this rate

[hushed robin]

Yes. But I noticed when I got attacked by them the damage they dealt was very fair. It was only the broken leg that was the main problem for me.

[wise sparrow]

Ik so move most of the damage from the ram to another attack.

[hasty coyote]

Alt maybe?

[frail flicker]

Maybe it has high bone break and stun, but lower damage overall so you're not really gonna kill a Utah or carno by spamming tapped rams

[hollow canyon]

The point is that you either CC and fracture or you deal damage, you shouldn't be allowed to do all of the above with one attack

That's the general issue with herbivores it seems - they do everything with a single attack

[wise sparrow]

Not current alt that's for sure. Probably some new alt right click attack

[hollow canyon]

this was the same problem Teno had where its tailslam just did everything all in one

[hasty coyote]

The broken leg is honestly too little atm, you run nearly as fast as a pachy. So a solo can break your leg and still get run down because it has less stam now.

[hasty coyote]

Then yeah, I agree with that

[frail flicker]

Idk, if I get leg broken I usually just try to run and heal

Maybe thats just me tho

[hollow canyon]

it's a bad strategy actually from what I've heard

[hasty coyote]

Yes, but if the pachy is alone, you can just limp it down

[hollow canyon]

at least 1v1 Carno murders a Pachy even if you break its leg

[wise sparrow]

Pachy vs carno should be more like
"Ok cool you got a leg break. Now you can either run or risk your life killing the carno because your damage dealer has no stun"