balance-feedback-discussion

[half girder]

yes

[alpine plover]

Ehh

[dusky surge]

???

no matter what you did, the animations would look scuffed

[half girder]

actually finishing a dino and not slapping other anims on it isnt lazy at all

[alpine plover]

Some of Evrima's anims haven't been the as good as legacy

[half girder]

but it would look better

[alpine plover]

Cerato at least turned out banger

[half girder]

walk anim on baby pachy is scarier then a croc that can kill u after afking in water for 5 hrs

[keen plover]

I mean, wouldn't it look scuffed anyway? Making juvi pachy look good, while also running as fast as 28km from the start is quite hard. I think so anyway. Being small + quick looks odd animation wise. I could be wrong though

[dusky surge]

it would look scuffed

[half girder]

would look better tho

it being its own anims is better

[dusky surge]

not really?

[keen plover]

To look good, they'd probably need to lower the speeds

[dusky surge]

it'd just look like it was constantly trapped in a different timeframe lmao

[half girder]

the speed could be lowered tbh

[alpine plover]

Ehhh

[keen plover]

I'd rather keep the speed.

[alpine plover]

Depends on it not being so slow to be deino chow

[keen plover]

Unless they decide to make all juvie pachys food in one area

[half girder]

not that slow, but to a point where it looks good

food should be everywhere

no fucking reason to spread it after map change

[alpine plover]

I think it’s a rare case of balance taking priority over immersion

Common I should say

[half girder]

cocos should spawn in jungle, agave plains, melons plains

[alpine plover]

Yeah, diets really need to be updated right now

[half girder]

the fair and balanced dam where nutrients is, is just so bad

[alpine plover]

Growing a herbi isn’t fun, fair, and takes too long

[half girder]

exactly

[alpine plover]

I can see why spreading diets was a necessity though

Since oasis created herbi kill squads

But fixing that issue creates another

[keen plover]

Yeah pachy fractures with a teno around is scary stuff

[alpine plover]

Segmented herbivores in lower populations compared to carni counterparts

Pachy + Stegos was painful

Stegos are infestations as well

Still are

[half girder]

tap charge fracture can be abused too

run up 2 call, tap fracture

[alpine plover]

Combo-ing essentially

I know the trick

[half girder]

as a pachy main, i just dont like it lol

[keen plover]

?

[alpine plover]

It feels cheap to cheese it on someone

[half girder]

very cheese

[alpine plover]

Wasn’t earned

Just destroyed them no chance

[half girder]

pachy should have to lift its head

a teno with reaction can kick and counter

[alpine plover]

There’s a pachy kill squad murdering tenos in one of the officials

[half girder]

honestly just dont trust pachys lol

[alpine plover]

Using the combo and solo-ing them in mere seconds

[keen plover]

I usually see pachys near dam with carnos protecting them

[half girder]

ehhhhhhhhhhhhh

[keen plover]

pachy combo huh. I don't play pachy, so I don't know much of that

[half girder]

pachy in the back lol

[alpine plover]

Unironically

[half girder]

fair and balanced wall

[alpine plover]

Stego should be vaulted next update

I don’t care what anyone says

[half girder]

just add rocks just eat tenos and pachys can climb

kentro > stego

[alpine plover]

Stegos exist to add nothing but hurt the experience

[half girder]

but nonononoooo

[alpine plover]

For now they should just be ai

[keen plover]

I'm personally amazed they upped pachys ability to fight things over 1.8T. Update 4 pachy couldn't do it, but now you can.

[half girder]

balanced

pachy being able to actually be played in a video game with aliens

realism isnt needed much, i mean clearly

[alpine plover]

Fixing the Pachy combo would help

I think the Stego/Deino issue will remain until there's surefire counterplay and competition for them

But it'd be a long while until then

Basically until the big apexes are in to thrawt Stego's from camping areas anymore

Spinos/Cherry's checking Deino's from hording carelessly as they are.

They created their own problem that can't be resolved for a very long time

[rapid flicker]

@jovial vessel I don’t like your idea of it falling over, but carno should definitely get a turn radius nerf

And not a minor one, nerf it to the ground

[alpine plover]

This may be heresy

But Carno is okay rn

[rapid flicker]

Are you for real?

[alpine plover]

Yes

[jovial vessel]

carno needs something to keep it in check, right now its too op

[alpine plover]

Aka Cerato

Which is coming

[rapid flicker]

So their agility, combined with their power and superior speed is okay to you?

[alpine plover]

Compared to what exactly?

[jovial vessel]

exactly, right now they have the best speed, they are decent mobility and have very good damage output

tenos should be able to go toe to toe with them

[alpine plover]

Which is true

And yes, Teno's stomp them if they play correctly

[jovial vessel]

but they nerfed teno bc god forbid herbis be good at something (excluding apexes)

[rapid flicker]

Yes, herbivors in general need a buff, or carno needs a nerf

Not stego tho

[alpine plover]

Only the tailslam, but the kicks are still high damage

[golden coral]

Teno can take a carno 1v1. The carno hitbox can be an issue, but well.. that has nothing to do with stats

[alpine plover]

I agree the tail slam needs less stam to use

[rapid flicker]

It needs stam reduction on attacks

[jovial vessel]

tailslam needs to take FAR less stam

[golden coral]

And even if you only use current tailslam, you can win, though yes, it'll hurt stam a bit more

[alpine plover]

But currently Teno can 1v2 Carno's still

[jovial vessel]

considering carno can spam attack, run, charge and be fine

[alpine plover]

The issue is that Teno's for some reason grow longer than Carno
Meaning there's more Carno's in the ratio including Carni bias

[golden coral]

But I can still pull off a win using only slam + claw, because I'm just not good enough to use the kick. If you can use the kick properly, you will take a carno rather easily, considering how much that hurt if you get a few kicks in the carnos face.

[dusky surge]

the biggest issue with carno isn't its acceleration, its turning, its speed or its damage. It's the tracking. The tracking is extremely, extremely dumb for the animal

[half girder]

the accel is fine

[rapid flicker]

What I’m trying to say here though is, carno should have a downside for the speed and power they bring

[alpine plover]

Tracking is stupid

[alpine plover]

Bleed hurts them really bad right now

[dusky surge]

tracking and bleed is not at all befitting of the animal's niche

[jovial vessel]

Im with Hank, carno needs a downside, bc right now there is none

[alpine plover]

Strong counter to Carno, bleeding

[dusky surge]

the downside I'd give carno is dogshit tracking and worse bleed

[rapid flicker]

Herbs don’t usually do bleed dmg bro

[alpine plover]

Pachy is a terrible matchup on average I can admit,
Though Teno still stomps it

[keen plover]

Teno, Stego and deino beat carno in a fight. Utah, dryo, ptera and hypsi can avoid it. Only issue is pachys matchup against it

[alpine plover]

So we have firm opposition which is Teno, just not in high enough numbers
And we have a rough mechanic to hinder Carno, which is bleed.
Carno cannot function without sprint or using it's speed. Therefore it must sprint which bleed works really hard against them
1-2 Utah pounces is enough to end a fight now

[keen plover]

Carnos running turn radius hasn't been changed since update 4, which is technically its worst 'agility'

[dusky surge]

thats not true

[rapid flicker]

Not true at all

[dusky surge]

update 4.5 significantly buffed the turn radius

(corrected myself)

[keen plover]

not running though? only turn in place?

[dusky surge]

charge turn radius was also buffed

[rapid flicker]

Overal agility has been buffed

Even buffed acceleration

[alpine plover]

If Teno gets lowered growth times, higher numbers
Then when Cerato gets introduced

Carno overall would get 3 tricky matchups in the game:
Utah-
Teno-
Cerato-

[keen plover]

Carnotaurus
Mobility:
Turn in place rate slightly increased. (Turns better).
Sprint Acceleration increased. (Hits top speed faster).

[golden coral]

When you say 1-2 pounces takes out carno Nacen, do you mean with or without bucking?

[rapid flicker]

Still carno walk is 3x faster compared to like a pachy walk

[alpine plover]

Pachy needs a bit of help, but it can certainly be patched to punch up better

[dusky surge]

pachy has the worst trot in the game of any land animal

[rapid flicker]

I agree, it’s a walking chicken nugget

[alpine plover]

Even with bucking, it'd be a dangerous spot to be in for Carno. Especially if the fight doesn't end quickly

2 Utahs can certainly take down a Carno right now

[golden coral]

Oh yeah, no doubt, just curious since people don't always mean a full pounce vs a bucked pounce. So good to know the difference.

[alpine plover]

Full pounce just outright dooms Carno tho lol

As it should tho

[rapid flicker]

It actually amazes me people still don’t know how to buck

[alpine plover]

If you're a Carno, with the speed, and the influence on the engagement you have in the fight. You deserve to be fucked over if you let yourself get pounced.

It's something I always thought was an issue with the matchup in the game until now thankfully

[keen plover]

1 bucked pounce won't end you. Generally the 2nd one forces you to stay and fight

[rapid flicker]

Speed is king in this game.

[alpine plover]

Generally you keep dancing and stam regen'ing while the Carno succumbs to it's fate

You'd think after 1 bucked pounce they'd disengage and escape

But they always stay and fight, every single time

[rapid flicker]

Carno players aren’t the smartest players

[keen plover]

I recently fought a big utah pack and stood there and fought after 2-3 pounces. Killed 4 of them and ran at 9% bloodpool. You can still fight. Vast majority of utah players are bad as well

[alpine plover]

They don't realize it until after a few minutes of sprinting, and once their blood pool is in 30-40% that they're in trouble now

[keen plover]

The key is to get early hits off as carno so that they can't keep coming back to fight

Good thing most utah players have no patience lol

and the good ones are always solo or in pairs so it ain't too scary either

[alpine plover]

Right, for Carno. It's trading and ending the fight quickly as possible with speed.
For Utah, it's simple patience. Utah has superior agility, stam regen, and flexibility with attrition.

[keen plover]

I really want to see a matchup against 'high' level carnos and a utah pair

[alpine plover]

I'd like to see that as well

[dusky surge]

well technically carno has one of the best resting stam regens in the game

[alpine plover]

It'd be fascinating

[dusky surge]

i think it's only beaten by the sheer insanity of hypsi

[alpine plover]

tf, who'd let a carno rest?

well, maybe the average utah player would

[keen plover]

hypsi regaining stam mid jump

[golden coral]

If it only takes two utahs, then carno might need some help, it should not be a good fight for only a pair vs a carno, since it's supposed to prey upon utahs, not the other way around

[dusky surge]

Hypsi is the stamina god

[alpine plover]

I respectfully disagree

[keen plover]

I can see what you mean, but even 2 is manageable for carnos.

[alpine plover]

for the average Carno v Utah player

[dusky surge]

2 is very manageable for a competent carno

[alpine plover]

Utah's are absolutely prey atm

[golden coral]

That's fine you know! :p

[dusky surge]

its funny because i'd honestly safely say that most animals on the roster rn are extremely well designed at fucking up utah lmao

[alpine plover]

But skill level circumvents or affects matchups
There is a key difference to Utah's throwing themselves in hordes vs methodically using team coordination and exploiting their enemies ignorance.

[keen plover]

Also carnos can group up. 2-3 carnos and utahs are never a threat at all lol

[golden coral]

I don't know how the current balance is, I just think that in the matchup, three utahs vs a carno is reasonable, with two being doable but rather unfavourable for the utahs. More or less at least.

[dusky surge]

if trike was added instead of steg, i'd honestly say utah would have a better chance of felling them

[alpine plover]

Above average players it's true

[golden coral]

Add para! Now there's an excellent utah prey item that can't even do anything xD

[keen plover]

That's how it is rn. 3 is reasonable, but 2 is doable but still unfavourable

[alpine plover]

Though for people that have good reflexes, judgment, and coordinating under an over arching plan. Utah essentially becomes a different animal altogether

[dusky surge]

para honestly would be better designed for utah combat tbh. Not going along with the whole "fodder animal" thing, but I do think it'd be way better

[alpine plover]

The same way a Teno spamming in a frenzy panick is compared to a player with tempered patience carefully combo'ing it's attacks.

[golden coral]

How? Please explain :p

[dusky surge]

doesn't have a massive spike tail to guard flanks

[golden coral]

So it's more or less fine then! :D

[white cove]

When you think about it, aside from anky and kentro, Stego might just be the best herbivore in the game suited for dealing with utahs

tail mounted weapon with near full reach

[alpine plover]

Nerfing the blood pools fixed the matchup for Utah v Carno

Fair play on the devs part, gotta give them credit for it

[golden coral]

Then why did you disagree with my statement if that's how it is? :p Two utahs should be able to pull it off vs a worse carno, but if the carno is as good, they should require at least three to have a "fair" fight.

[alpine plover]

The issue is with the verbiage, you used "should"

That implies tweaking to the current state, when it's fine as is.
The current average Utah are prey to Carno's
The implication I had issue with is that all Utah's regardless of skill level shouldn't prey upon Carno's (which they don't)

[golden coral]

Well, with equal skill they never should? Is what I mean. Average utahs vs average carno = carno preys upon them. Excellent utahs vs excellent carno = carno still preys upon them?

[alpine plover]

If some players are so good that they're able to pull off turning a matchup on it's head by exploiting poor decision making on a player. That doesn't reflect how balance should be tweaked. It's an exception to the rule

[white cove]

Kinda does, it's not hard to be 'good' at the game. Like you said, "good" utahs are just patient

In the sense that you're talking about at least

[golden coral]

Balance should be tweaked for the result, since that's what balance is in the end. And that's what I meant. With equal skill/smarts, you get a certain result. And that's the result I was talking about, though I didn't phrase it clearly enough.

[white cove]

ye, right there: it's just simple patience

[alpine plover]

For exceptional Carno's v Utah's
The matchup is variable. Any stupid mistake made should reflect on the outcome of the fight for the two parties.
Though it's rare and I've never met a good Carno player before

So it's hard to say what would happen if an exceptional Carno v Utah matchup were to happen currently

[white cove]

So while I understand your sentiment about not balancing for the rare upper echelon, this isn't a MOBA or FPS with some incredible learning curve - the "exceptional" players you speak of are really quite common and they are mixed in with the more*-common folk, no skill based matchmaking

[golden coral]

Yes and no. Variable, but only to a degree. Since stats do declare how it goes in the end. Unless you're balancing for a different kind of game.

[golden coral]

I mean, not really. Exceptional play and no mistakes will have a given result. Since it comes down to values and not your playing then. As no side is making mistakes or otherwise plays worse.

[alpine plover]

For those players, the variables do matter to that extant. It's inevitable that these players will exist and Transform the game almost into something entirely else
Unless it's something very extreme like a solo Utah solo'ing a Rex. Balance shouldn't be generally geared around very rare exceptions that don't happen on the averages.

[half girder]

dude tap charge is so cracked lmao

[golden coral]

I think we're using the word balance a bit different here. So to clarify, when I say balance, it's the absolute, end result, the "output" your playable can do, at max. And since that's how I use it, then I will have to say that balance should always be made around the very best. That is not to say the playable difficulty or how hard something is should be based only around the very best. Those are two very different things.

[half girder]

got two leg factures instantly

[white cove]

I feel like if you hit the leg a tap charge should fracture

[alpine plover]

You'd be surprised with the amount of knowledge some of them may have or dedication on manipulating mechanics into unintended uses.
Though the current mechanics are simple, those players create thorough methods, and create the best possible formula with most success with rigorous testing and time sunk. If it's busted, then sure. Patch or tweak it. But if they're simple mechanics that are currently intendedly balanced well for 90% of the time. Watching out to scuff these players out is vain effort.

[white cove]

if the slow unwieldy pachy is in a position to hit the fast carno in the leg then it shouldnt be rewarded with alt-bite into death

[white cove]

Well, it's a survival game and not a battle arena* so I feel like it's not quite as vain as you'd want it to be

Also you're mixing up balance for a survival game with balance for some kind of competitive esport-esque title

[half girder]

feels like a br honestly

man, killing carnos with instant leg fracture tap charge sure is fun

5 carnos down

[alpine plover]

To achieve the end result for the balance. You'd first have to eliminate the extremes. This would be a strenuous task to do since the concept of Utah is a pack hunter that can bring down significantly larger prey. You'd have to account also that Utah has just enough agility to outright being helpless against a Carno's superior speed and power stats. Having enough stam to also escape deep into jungles, or for dealing with it's intended purpose of pack hunting larger prey. As well as the stam regen to employ it's ability to serve it's purpose of it's niche. So what happens when someone weaponizes all of these capabilities into a combat matchup methodically. Creating an effective formula at dealing with a certain matchup. A character who's strongest capability would work against them with a universal basic mechanic.

[half girder]

reminds me of up4

[alpine plover]

What I mean by it being a vain effort at eliminating the extremes is you'd need to be on the lookout for the types of methods are currently used by these players. Nerfing the agility would make it fodder to Carno's inescapably so. Nerfing the stam regen would affect the capability at it's intended niche, as well as bleed, pounce, or any other stat for that matter.

[white cove]

Yes, that is how nerfs tend to work

[golden coral]

Not quite sure what you refer to with te "universal basic mechanic". Aside from that, I.. disagree that it would be as strenuous and certainly not too much so, to do. And this of course goes for all playables, not just this specific matchup. But you'd have to start with figuring out every intended matchup and go from there. No matter how you "weaponize" things or have methods, the inherent mechanic and functions of the game tells you what you can and can not do. And remember that changes can be done for all things. You can't say "x would affect the nice" without taking everything else into account there. The issue I see is that there just needs to be an absolute, clear idea of "this can happen, this can not" and so on, for every matchup/everything in the game.

[alpine plover]

Nerfs for a specific matchup, that would affect intended niche unfortunately.
Again there's a difference between fixing an exploit, then trying to work around very methodical formula's reliant of punish poor decision making of a playable. Which would trickle down on it's actual niche were it's supposed to perform

[golden coral]

Maybe it's just because my own approach if I were to make a game, would be to have a given outcome clear when I create a roster/anything. So I'm just approaching this whole balance thing differently because of that.

[alpine plover]

I meant bleed, you'd have to rework bleed or give Carno an exception to bleed as it is currently to reach that absolute balance by dissolving that method.

[alpine plover]

Outcome of matchups can't and won't be a thing
A Teno can defend itself against a Carno, unless it panicks and wastes all of it's attacks
A Teno that can almost perfectly land all of it's attacks from reflex/practice gives a Carno nearly zero chance to ever take on that Teno in that matchup

[golden coral]

Ah, okay. Just wasn't sure. Well, maybe that's just how I approch things. But yes, exceptions, or how the mechanics function so you can make changes in different ways, and so on I guess. It's more so that I take a different approach to it, whereas it feels like most add stuff and then try to sort out the balance in some manner. And well, of course outcome of matchups can be a thing, it's what I mean with absolute results.

[alpine plover]

With the current mechanics, skill level will affect how the game is played. The extremes will happen for certain players, like a Teno that never misses.

[half girder]

why is it i hit the dino on my screen but my frens i dont..

skill issue iggg

[golden coral]

Yes and what you're describing there is outcome of matchups. As in, what the absolute max is given perfect playing and all that. Which is what I mean. At some point the game itself says "this is what happens, no matter your skill". Like fall damage, or lack of jumping. Skill is only so much, at the end, the "laws of the game", decides what you can and can not do, and that's the end of balance.

I think it's just a different approach we have, and a slightly different use of the term balance, and how it applies to a game.

[alpine plover]

Ofc, only if the disparity within stats is so ridiculous like one Utah vs one Rex
But the difference here is between a small tier who's sole purpose is punching up to very large prey. And a fast small game hunter. Who's speed works against it when it comes to the current bleed mechanics

Simply put, the bleed mechanics would need to change to break the method these players have created to exploit the Carno

Only specifically though, if universally changed, it'd affect every one of Utah's matchups. Potentially in it's intended niche

Though if Carno gets a pass on certain bleed mechanics. That'd potentially affect a large swath of many other matchups for Carno itself

[golden coral]

Just so we're clear, I'm no longer talking about that specific matchup. Not that it's any different from the utah vs rex, because in both cases, you can have a given outcome. And even if universally changed, that could be applied to the rest of the "universe" as well, so it's not quite as black and white as you make it out to be.

It would affect, but at the same time that can be changed in turn to adjust for it.

Though maybe that's what you're saying and we're just reading past each other a little there.

But I think you're kind of showing why I have a different approach to it all

Since you're pointing out that changes here and there of course leads to changes overall, which is why I believe there needs to be a given vision and clarity for the balance in whole in the first place. Because that's how you can avoid these issues.

If you already had a mapped out vision of how everything in the game interacts, you'd have gone past these issues with "what if we change x" already.

[alpine plover]

I don't understand by black and white
if anything I'm likely going too indepth about this entirely
I'm saying that fixing what isn't broken to reach an absolute, potentially trickles down to breaking everything else entirely

[golden coral]

Well yes, though if something is broken in this case is a bit subjective :p But we've gone from discussing specific isle matchups to balance in general and how it could be done in games, no matter the game :p

So while I do get your point, I'm sort of arguing for a different approach that might avoid or mitigate the trickling down you're concerned about

[keen plover]

I've been in and out of here, but is this about making sure that even the high skilled players can't technically kill things solo/pairs or something?

[golden coral]

You're using the carno/utah as an example of how a change can cause issues, while I'm using it as an example of why having a set outcome and vision in place before hand would be good.

[keen plover]

rather shouldn't *

[golden coral]

What I'm saying is that balance, to me, is about absolute outcome. What should be doable, is of course subjective, but I believe that you need to balance for the best players, the maximum output. Which is not the same as how difficult a playable should be. Just clarifying since I know some people confuse those two. But if every side plays perfectly, no mistakes, nothing, then you will have a guaranteed outcome in any given situation.

Nacen is more so pointing out that changing a specific matchup can cause other effects, to which I'm arguing that this is the reason my approach to balancing includes a clear vision in the first place, to avoid such issues and so on.

Which doesn't really have much to do with the Isle specifically at that point, but this wouldn't be the first time me and someone else have gone slightly off tangent from what would be a normal balance discussion :p

[keen plover]

Ah, well balance isn't like that for this game. Technically a utah can solo kill a carno. Mainly given 'tools' and are expected to work with it. I think it's fine and fun the way it is

[alpine plover]

It'd be strenuous by fixing one matchup to reach that absolute. Means chasing your own tail to continuously balance around adjustments that also may have unintended consequences. Calling for more continuous adjustment. Utah's must have mechanics to have the capabilities in place to fill it's intended role. If a Utah can land a pounce nearly perfectly every single time, even against a Carno. There's not much you can do unless arbitrarily nerfing pounce. Or giving Carno to an exception to bleed which affects a plethora of potenitally everything else unintentionally. The vision works, on averages Carno players smoke Utah's. But having set outcomes can't/won't be a thing as long as the given variables exist.

Even on the hyper extreme example. If a Rex goes afk for an hour, gets continuously pounced/bled by a Utah. A Utah would solo that Rex in that example

That's another variable that denies the idea of set outcome from concept

[golden coral]

I know, for good or ill. And I'm not saying that couldn't happen anyway even if you balanced the way I mean, but all tools have a given use and a limit on what can be done with them and so on. Which is part of what I'm trying to say here.

[golden coral]

Maybe it would be, but I don't think so. Or well, it would be for the Isle since they're, from what I can see, obviously not doing balance like this, and I'm not sure they even have a balance vision in the way I mean. But you're still focused on the specific changes, so you're kind of missing my point, or we're talking past each other. You won't have continuous changes if it were done more like how I'm trying to describe it. And that example still does not deny the idea of a set outcome from concept at all. The set outcome from concept is, and has always been stated so, based on perfect playing. Nothing more or less. Maybe I didn't clarify that well enough earlier.

[alpine plover]

So what do you mean by deploying that vision?

[golden coral]

Maybe if I ask it this way. Assuming both the utahraptor and the carno plays perfectly, what happens?

[alpine plover]

What would that look like?

[golden coral]

What I mean, and in the case of the Isle feel, is that there is no real idea of how any given matchup should go. Which is why we balance back and forth a lot. Perhaps a clearer example would be, teno kick vs slam. There is uncertainty in what should do what. Same has been with utah pounce, going from damage to bleed, and if it should be "main damage" or perhaps a "finisher".

Does that help to explain what I mean with vision?

What I'm trying to say, is that an approach that has a clear vision of what does what, and how it does it ,and so on, would make for a clear balance in the first place.

[alpine plover]

Sorta, though I'm asking what would you propose on resolving to reach the absolute you have in mind

[golden coral]

And that vision would include all playables, thus mitigating, if not negating, your concern about "one change here trickles down"

[alpine plover]

To get tangible here

[golden coral]

You're going to have to rephrase that, because I'm not sure what you're asking?

[alpine plover]

Asking the specifics you'd have in mind, what should be done to have certain things do-able or remove the extremities from already functioning mechanics.

Or outright reworking mechanics to function under such vision, circumventing the extremities included in matchups you see as "shouldn't" be so

[golden coral]

Well, since I don't know A, how their mechanics actually work, and B, it would require to "start over" with first setting a vision in place and then working from there, I'm honestly not sure. But seeing as you'd have to start before implementing stuff, it'd probably be very difficult, if not impossible, given the situation. I mean, you can still of course remove the extremes by trying to figure out a vision as it stands, but it'd be harder since things are already set up in some ways. But what you'd have to do is start with the entire roster, map, the whole of the game that is part of balance, and figure out what you want to see/not see, and all that in the game. The experience as it were, and then work from there, trying to either adjust the mechanics we have, or outright do it over. I don't imagine that'd be easy in this case, though it should be doable, since we don't have much of the roster in yet and so on. As for specific things doable or not, that's just raw stats in the end. You "circumvent" things by those limitations you put in place. Such as not being able to fall from x spot without dying if you're y animal. But that's .. secondary to the whole concept of having a set idea of the game, no different from a game vision really. If that helps explain it. Just like the Isle as a game has a vision for what it wants to be and the experience it wants to give us, with everything in the game adjusting to that (sounds, environment, so on).

If you're asking for a specific thing to do, I'm not sure you've quite gotten the point of what I'm trying to say here. There's no specific mechanic I can say should be reworked (though there are certainly mechanics I think we can both agree are not ideal in how they work), for what I'm arguing.

But what I'm trying to say is, if you have a clear vision that includes everything, and you know everythings place in the game, then you can work from that.

[alpine plover]

Hmm, I'm thinking of this in case of the Utah v Carno matchup to bring it back since you're still vague
When the Utah can use it's given tools to punish a Carno's strength into a weakness.
What can be done to resolve this extreme case

[golden coral]

So I guess the most basic thing to do in this case would be to figure out the entire roster, who does what, to whom, in what way, under what circumstances.. and so on. A food chain I suppose.

I honestly think you're asking for an answer that is not very close to what I've been "arguing" for a while now. :p In this specific matchup, it would still depend on first having a clear absolute, a clear idea of "how do these things do it/how do they play" and work from that. You're asking me how I would resolve the matchup, but that depends entirely on how it should go as it were. Which none of us are sure of cause everyone have their own idea on how it should go :p

[alpine plover]

Okay

[golden coral]

But if you want a specific answer, then A, decide the matchup and how it works and B, adjust mechanics, as you've said, bleed exception perhaps, and so on. I don't know in this case what can be done, cause you know, we don't know how much works in this game, so that's very hard to answer.

You're kind of asking me to figure out a balance answer with very little in the way of what I can do to help me

Which means I can't really say "do x" because I don't even know if x would work

You're sort of asking me to work backwards from the approach I've tried to explain I would use. So it's a little tricky to figure out how to go about this.

If I put it this way. You're asking me how to fix x matchup when it's already in and made. My answer would be that said matchup has to be cleared up in the vision before being implemented so there's something clear to go by when it's made.

Does that help? :p

[alpine plover]

So, Utah is a small tier pack hunter, it's tools are design to attrition it's prey down slowly
Carno is a mid tier small game hunter
Carno has speed, size, agility, and the damage to reinforce itself doing that

A Utah has an appropriate amount of agility to not be helpless against a Carno
Specific set of players can organize a Utah's abilities in a combat scenario to an effective degree against a Carno
You disagree this can be done, and shouldn't be doable given the playable Carno is

Utah is small game that can punch up to large prey
Carno is a small game hunter with specific stats to push it there
What can be done to achieve an absolute in this matchup under a vision.

[keen plover]

Anti pounce or an increase in carno agility probs lol

There's no other mechanical ways to have absolutes

[alpine plover]

Because the bleed exception for Carno presents compromise in potentially a list of other factors ingame

[golden coral]

One thing, could be to change how the pounce works. Make it a direct contact grapple. Adjust the amount of pounces needed to get sufficient result would be another thing. If you want a specific mechanical changes and stat changes. Adjust future additions based on this plus every other matchup accordingly would be the next step. I should also point out, I disagree with the basic and very general sentiment of "large game/small game hunter" in the first place. :p

[alpine plover]

Utah is a pack hunter meant to punch up in concept though
As well as Carno in it's given niche
That's the "vision" of concept of these playables that cause contention in interaction between the two

[golden coral]

I'm sure there's plenty of ways to be honest. Since in the end there are absolutes in the game already for that matter. After all, x amount of things can facetank a deino to death as an example. You just need sufficent amount of utahs.

[alpine plover]

That creates a host of several potential compromises in how the playable functions which would affect nearly "every" matchup and it's intended function in it's niche

To reach absolutes, you'd have to create a pressure of an extraordinary amount of arbitrary mechanics of outright removing playable from interacting/afflicting each other.

Ex: Utah cannot damage/harm Carno, unless number of Utahs are present

[golden coral]

So then it's just a matter of deciding the amount of pounces or something that'd be needed, and again, adjust for the rest. Which as you've stated, will be an issue due to the already established "balance/vision".

[alpine plover]

Or Utah, cannot cause bleed to Carno. But can do so to everything else intended.

[golden coral]

Because just adding "more damage needed" wouldn't work? I'm not sure I see how you're getting all these extrordinary and pressure stuff from when that's hardly needed.

[alpine plover]

You'd need a strenuous amount of arbitrary conditions to achieve this vision that'd cause much more work, and more unintended issues that you could imagine.

[golden coral]

What would be the inherent issue in saying "it requires two more pounces to bleed the carno to death" and then you just won't have enough stamina to do so before being killed due to having used it in the first wave. Plus adjusting recovery rates and stuff. Point is, there are plenty of ways to adjust a matchup. But it does require a clear idea beforehand.

[golden coral]

Not if you've done it properly in the first place. Fixing something afterwards, yes that's going to be way harder. I still think it's doable, but you're asking me to figure stuff out with so many limitations that it's hard to do so. And since we're hardly sure on what the intended function is, besides a very vague "large game hunter", it's not going to end well. Changing the pounce would work perfectly fine, if the vision was a bit clearer and more defined than just "large game hunter".

It's like "small game hunter" carno, but then you have kentro with it's spikes.

[alpine plover]

In that given example, it can still be done. So it wouldn't remove the extremity. Even if you upped it to 3-4 pounces.
To outright remove them, the arbitrary condition would have to be unbelievably potent to a near ridiculous degree. And then you'd need to add in the factor if there'd ever be in large packs of 10-15. Do you remove the arbitrary limiting factor, do you increase it. Or the factor can be negated through a game of numbers.
Large game hunter refers to the fact in size comparison. Utah's have the intended ability of bringing down significantly larger prey.
Carno's small game hunter refers it's great matchup against smalls, juvies, or creatures who'd be smaller/slower than it. Ofc Kentro is an exception, but still possible to hunt.

[golden coral]

You keep asking me to fix a situation that doesn't have, far as I know, what I would have, and then seem to expect me to provide an answer that doesn't cause issues, when I've said that we'll have issues due to the lack of the thing I want in the first place. I honestly don't know what you want from me here. I can't provide a fix to a given matchup in the game, at least not one that would work the way I mean, when the basic situation is lacking.

[golden coral]

It couldn't be done with only x amount if the requirement to achieve it is higher. That's kind of the point there. And the numbers is a secondary balance issue, of course. Limiting what can be achieved on that front. So that's part of it too. Which should be a given. And yes, but that's kind of what I mean, there are "good" large/small items and "bad" large/small items. Which of course means you need to adjust so that actually happens in game then. If you want those things. Why is carno vs utah any different there?

[alpine plover]

I disagree that the basic situation is lacking, sure I'd appreciate more complexity currently. But the matchup is working as intended, Carno's destroy most Utah's.
I'm asking because unless there's a significant amount of pressure on arbitrary conditions that'd leave you chasing your tail to balance out extremities. It leave unintended consequences and damage impacting the quality performance of the game. It'd be strenuous, and from a concept introducing to the current fundamentals of the game. Being able to miss attacks, make mistakes, misplay, mistime, misposition, or make any sort of poor decision making.

[golden coral]

There are obviously so many factors that could be adjusted, assuming they are a thing in the game in the first place, that it's nowhere near as complicated as you seem to think it is.

[alpine plover]

Absolute outcome isn't possible.

The current fundamentals are inalienable to allowing variable skill levels/mistakes.

To remove that would remove a large section of decision making in the game's experience. Not a positive impact I imagine.

[golden coral]

I don't think we meant the same thing with "basic situation" here. And again, you're not.. I told you, it'd have to be done properly from the beginning for it to work, I don't know why you're surprised it would be difficult do adjust in the game here and now, though I still think it'd be doable, with some effort. And.. poor decision making is, not part of what I'm arguing. Absolute outcome is still, based on perfect play. Why are you bringing up things that'd change from that, when that's not my point and never was? Varying skill or outright stupidity has nothing to do with this in a relevant manner.

[alpine plover]

If you're bringing up perfect play, then it's a case of synergized tempo until one of the parties makes the mistake to be exploited

[golden coral]

Why are you bringing up things that have nothing to do with what I've been arguing... Am I not clear enough in "perfect playing"? That means no mistakes, and max skill. Then you have an absolute outcome based on the raw stats.

[alpine plover]

They almost play on a different game. I was talking in the case of how balance around these specific players is a terrible concept only if it's so extreme it's game breaking to the average players.

[golden coral]

Except with no mistakes, something else would take affect. Unless we're doing things in a vacuum or something. And why would you not balance for the absolute outcome, unless you want there to happen things that will seem odd I guess. I personally don't, which again, is why I argue for vision and balance in a different way than what seemingly has been done.

[alpine plover]

Because balancing for absolute outcome is undesirable

Appropriate opportunity to outcome is desirable

[golden coral]

I honestly don't understand how a rather simple concept of how to do things can lead to all this.. confusion I suppose. Either I am terrible at phrasing myself, or there is something else going on here that I have no clue about.

Eh.. appropriate outcome is what the absolute outcome should be?.. Unless you mean something else there

Otherwise we just disagree on what makes good balancing I suppose. But since you don't seem to quite get what I'm aiming for, I.. don't know if we should give up on this. I'm sure if you read everything I've written, somewhere in there I might have managed to phrase it clearly enough to get the point across. :p

Because by now, I'm getting tired, and it seems like you either don't get it, or just haven't quite understood what I've been trying to say, and I doubt me repeating myself, or you doing it, is going to help. I believe balancing should be started with a vision, just like the game itself, and that this will lead to the ability to make things clear directly. I further believe that balancing for absolute outcome is a given, being that people will reach max skill as you stated somewhere, given enough time and effort, and thus there has to be a clear line of "this can happen/this can not" in the game.

I can't "fix" your matchup the way you're asking due to lack of information, and the issues you've stated with how it will affect everything else, which is what I want to avoid by doing things differently in the first place.

[alpine plover]

Perfect play is the concept of ramping up the skill set to the absolutes. Which is in the sense absolute outcome
Applied is different. The game currently uses the method of opportunity to outcome. A Carno player can beat a Teno if given it responds or is proactive reaching certain variables to it's favour.
With the current mechanics. On average, it's skewed in the Carno's favour dramatically. This is negated by significant amount of method to reduce this to a degree that a Utah can circumvent this. Your ideas to skew or reduce the extremities are arbitrary and hold possible harm to several other factors/mechanics/matchups which would entail balance to resolve each unintended issue. Which is why I give the example of chasing one's own tail.
If we're in an environment that allows for player choice. Judgement, which includes moment to moment good/bad decisions. Mechanics to interact, and tool sets that are used for niches. Absolute outcome is difficult, and undesirable from a designing standpoint.

Appropriate opportunity to outcome is desirable, as it allows for everything implied, included above. Maximizing player agency in the given rule set. Even if those small minority of players are a consequence of it.

[golden coral]

You do realize none of what you're worried about would be an issue if things were done "my way". Right? Cause you're bringing up points that are entirely irrelevant, so maybe you don't get what I mean with absolute outcome. In any case, I disagree, absolute outcome is the, far as I'm concerned, only proper way to balance. And it still allows for appropriate outcome, since you can still make good or bad decisions, and still have mechanics. None of those things are removed, unless you mean they're removed cause we have fall damage or drowning or something similar? In which case I'm very confused to be honest. You can still find a bad or dumb player and do stuff you normally wouldn't and shouldn't be able to do. That has nothing to do with absolute outcome. Dealing with extremes, or reducing them, is just a matter of declaring what can and can not be done, and for whatever mechanic/function that works with that.

Changing "base requirements" for something does not mean that there won't be circumstances in the game where those requirements have been negated or mitigated for any other reason. So everything you're so worried about is entirely irrelevant to what I've been arguing about. But it's obvious that you're either missing my point, or not getting it, or you use the terms differently, because .. your answers make no sense to me.

Adding x more damage required to kill something, does not mean that that something won't be found wounded at some point..

You're.. clearly not taking absolute outcome or "perfect play" in the same way I mean it, I'm pretty sure

There's literally nothing that would prevent utahs, in your example, from killing a carno just because you up the base requirements for doing so given the master level. Because you won't always find that, and you won't always find those players, and so on.

The only thing you're doing, is saying "if both sides are perfect, this is the guaranteed outcome".

Which you already have anyway, seeing as you mentioned it'd just go on in such a situation. And I see no reason why that couldn't happen ingame currently?

[alpine plover]

I'm saying it's undesirable, from a work load perspective, a balance perspective, and from a player agency perspective
If the average player can solo a Carno, then the opportunity of outcome is inappropriate.
And to achieve removing the extremes, is still not guaranteed unless taken to a specific preposterous degree which would be arbitrary. Further removing a large factor of agency in an interaction.
I'm saying that "if both parties are near perfect, the outcomes is not guaranteed, and shouldn't be" notice the verbiage I use near perfection.

[golden coral]

I really don't think it needs to be taken to any such degrees or anything like that. And I honestly think doing it this way would in the long run reduce work load, so that would not be an issue from what I can see. Balance, well, clearly we disagree on what would be for the better when it comes to balance. You're .. somehow thinking absolute and appropriate are different when in this case, they are not. Or not the way I imagine them at least. So there's no conflict there for me. And sure, if they're "near perfect", then obviously there's an opportunity for something to happen, but I did state perfect, at all times. Not "near" perfect. Though even "near" would probably be close enough to count honestly, there has to be a line drawn somewhere.

But you seem to think that balancing from a vision, and having a clear idea of how everything will go, that takes absolute outcomes as the base, and works with the game mechanics and stats and all would somehow remove any possibility in the game except.. that one outcome I guess? And I can not see how you reach that conclusion at all, seeing as the game already does have things rather close to absolute, more or less. And you still have variable factors in the game even so.

@alpine ploverOkay, I need to ask you. Did I, at any point, phrase myself in such a way that you would come to the conclusion that even if you find a standing, afk brachio, that a single utah wouldn't be able at all, to kill it, even if it stands there for the next few hours, and the utah has food nearby to refill if it needs?

[alpine plover]

Perfect from it's concept I admit was a wrong base.
Which is why near perfect is an appropriate correction.
I'm arguing that balancing around the extremities to a point of absolute is arbitrary and woefully still forgoes a list of variables, concerns of balance, and agency in an environment of decision making.
I imagine appropriate outcome meaning playing near perfectly should allow the favorable outcome almost every single time in a given scenario. Absolute in my eyes, is that a player not just near perfect, but from the averages are arbitrarily skewed moreso than they already are to account for reducing a minority of skilled players.

[golden coral]

Because if so, I sincerely apologize, because either I am trash at phrasing myself, or you have made some terrible mistake over there :p

Okay, let's clear it up a bit then. Appropriate outcome, to me, is the same as absolute. It is me saying "if x falls down from this height, it dies". it is me saying "if x pounces y, it does 1% damage" for whatever reasons I have.

Also, I did say, at some point, that there's a difference between the balance result, and how difficult it is to play something to a decent level. Just so we're clear on that.

Aside from that, I'm really not seeing the concerns you seem to. To me there's no issues with combining what I want and still have what you seem to want, beyond specific subjective ideas of what should be enough in a given situation.

[alpine plover]

What I'm in favour of is the given situation currently
Sure there could be a few or more ingame mechanics or additional mechanics.
But I'm not in favour of having my experience impacted or further skewed in a matchup from arbitrary means.
There's a long list of player feedback above previously/currently discontent, from Carno's being too skewed, effective without the earned/learned depth of mechanics or reflexes. I stand by player skill being a paramount to influencing balance or being an solution to unfavorable matchups if the appropriate variables are met.
My concept of player skill being a focal point of balance, and your idea of absolute outcome conflict. Sure, if example a Rex bites down and causes 10000 damage, then it happens as an absolute. But taking in that factor along with several others to methodically work around avoiding it to combat/survive a Rex is the approach I imagine.
Carno's max speed, and generous stats in comparison are already givens to skew matchups to it's role's intention. Anything more than that pushes it to become inappropriate and unnecessary in interaction.

To summarize the conclusion simply: "If it isn't broken, don't fix it"

[golden coral]

Well, I don't really care about the given situation, since I'm not actively playing anyway. That was just me saying how I think that particular matchup should look like :p And I'm not sure that player skill is in opposition to absolute outcome, though maybe that's cause we don't quite mean the same thing. But no matter how you balance around skill, you always have the raw stats that decides stuff, you can't get around that no matter what you do, so I really don't see a conflict there at all. Raw values do not negate player decisions and skill or anything else. It is, as you said, something to work around, and I do believe there can and should be things you can't work around. Again, see fall damage as an example. Or the current carno/utah, you still need that one pounce to bleed it out, no matter your skill or smarts, you need x pounce for y result. This changes depending on if the carno runs or not and so on, but for any of those given circumstances, there's an "absolute" you need to meet.

[alpine plover]

@halcyon granite Herbi's need more food options, interactivity with said food options in the environment, control over what buffs we want for optimizing, and generally faster growth times(except apexes- stego)

It's way too long for Herbi's as it stand and is an unhealthy ratio between herbi/carni populations

[halcyon granite]

Not implying that apexes such as stego need to grow faster just that id still wish to see it had more choice when it comes to eating

[alpine plover]

Criticism I have is that, you're arguments are generally vague to interpret. Hard to grasp that absolute outcomes means "x does y with pounce doing 1%" No clue what that means unless you're communicating to reduce pounce on certain creatures.

That again is something to interpret from that phrasing

[golden coral]

I apologize, I know I'm.. not the best at phrasing myself clearly, though it's much more obvious in my own mind what I mean :p But that was an example only. Maybe I need to state that more clearly. Absolute outcome as I mean it is just: This is the raw values you can achieve, no matter how skilled/smart you are. I tried to use the fall damage as another example, but it really just means "the game says this is what you can actually do with a given thing".

[alpine plover]

I still have a vague idea of what ideas you're pushing, even with absolutes. You have to define the ideas and what sort of desired affect of it should come of it.

[golden coral]

For example, if we don't want a single ptera to peck a rex to death, we can make it so damage vs recovery means the rex will always regenerate more than it loses, thus the ptera just can not do it to a healthy rex, even if it's afk.

That's an "absolute" as I mean it, no matter your skill or smarts, you do not have the damage output vs the recovery to get the result you're aiming for if you're trying to peck it to death.

[alpine plover]

Okay, now we're getting somewhere. So I already admitted that normally a solo Utah shouldn't take on a Rex
But in rare instances, a Rex would be afk for an hour, but still killable by that Utah. Which negates that idea from a concept.

[golden coral]

The only real idea I've "pushed" is that having a balance vision, just like a game vision, is a good thing, and it will help with balancing from the beginning. Thus avoiding some back and forth and so on. The clearer your vision and concept is, the easier it is to then put it into the game, be it by values, mechanics, and so on. Just like how the game as a whole has a vision, that "this is what this game is", that you then go by when you add stuff like envrironment and sounds and everything.

Everything aside from that, has mostly been me trying to explain myself and utterly failing it seems :p

[alpine plover]

Though the idea that a really great near perfect Carno player should never be contended by equally good 2-3 Utahs is difficult to determine given the outcome isn't guranteed. And to balance around that is arbitrary and stifles balance/poor play.

I won't change my mind behind this idea of skill being paramount, deciding factor of whether or not you exploit your given leverages.

[golden coral]

And in the case of the utah/carno, all I really said there was that I think it should take maybe one more utah to get that result. Meaning in this case, if the carno is playing well, and the utahs are playing well, then two of them just won't be enough. And that the outcome can be "guaranteed", which is what I would be aiming for. Aside from that, I.. well I don't see those issues you keep mentioning, but again, maybe we see things differently there. And no, the rex/utah example up there does not negate the ideas I have and mean. Not quite in the way you seem to think at least.

[alpine plover]

But your concept of vision is in conflict of mine and I imagine possibly many others ways we derive of enjoyment or interpretation of the current fundamentals of the game.

[golden coral]

And no, I don't think you need to change your mind there, because doing what you say, does not conflict with my vision/idea at all from what I can see.

So either we're not quite understanding each other, or there's some issues either with my way of seeing things, or yours, that causes a conflict there

But of course, changing the current game according to something else, is probably not going to turn out well :p

Not that I was intending to say the game should do so, I've been talking more in general on different approaches to balance and how I would do it

[alpine plover]

I notice you have ideas that push towards the idea of the playables interacting to a dinosaur like ecosystem as close as possible
Which could be done. But the immersion breaks, and human behavior discrepancies will always remain. Making it a near unachievable task unless the environment was filled with hyper intelligent ai instead.

[golden coral]

I.. think you might be reading a bit too much or something different into what I've said

[alpine plover]

We the players with the creatures interact within matchups to resemble an ecosystem. I think that might be as close as we could possibly get.

[golden coral]

Unless you ar referring to ideas from.. I don't know, way back when or something, that I honestly don't remember if so :p

[alpine plover]

But I digress

[golden coral]

And yes, making humans play as animals is.. a tricky thing to achieve, no doubt

[alpine plover]

Impossible I'd say

[golden coral]

Or at least close enough. But I honestly don't know where you're reading all that into what we've been talking about today.

[alpine plover]

Ideas I interpreted you've stated several months ago

[golden coral]

Would I want a survival game like that, yes. But that's.. not really related to my ideas for vision and balance, which could be applied to any game genre.

[alpine plover]

You pushing towards the current player base behaving as more like herbivores or proper carnivores

With ingame mechanics

[golden coral]

Ah okay, sorry that I probably don't remember what those would be right now. But it sounds vaguely accurate, so I don't disagree at least!

[alpine plover]

Though that's besides the point

[golden coral]

This entire discussion sort of have been besides the point of this channel I'd say :p Surprised we've not been yelled at yet!

As for any such ideas, I'll wait for and hope that mods can achieve something

[alpine plover]

It was a debate on different wavelengths

Mostly it was me just trying to understand and missing your viewpoints the entire time

Which made it faulty progression from base

[cold spindle]

Lol the people that's reacting with the cross on my suggestion are clearly mix packers 😅😅

[slim dragon]

Lol the people who make this kind of suggestion always get a ton of X's and clearly haven't thought of any consequence of such a mechanic

[cold spindle]

Resd my suggestion properly I said "might not be viable"

[slim dragon]

Hence the X

[cold spindle]

I am a developer of games myself so I understand consequences of things like that but at the end of the day something needs doing that'll stop people mix packing with things on their diets or are you one of the players that thinks that's right?

[slim dragon]

Nope
But I think having such debuffs is even worse

[cold spindle]

Then what would you suggest to counter mix packers then cause I've thought about it and the insanity thing is the only viable thing I personally can think of

Like if we as humans were to go live with a group of monkeys we'd start going insane eventually hence my insanity suggestion

[slim dragon]

Better balance so it isn't as profitable
Better diet system so it is harder to do

Everything else is either useless, abusable or can grief players who aren't actually mixpacking and just trying to play the game

[cold spindle]

That's why I thought about after a set time if hanging around with other species so it's not an instant debuff say you sat with a stego and you're a utah after 10 mins or so you start to go insane or lose some stam or something, just need something in place that'll make players think twice before mixing yanno

[slim dragon]

If it only procs after 10 mins then it's useless

It's not hard for a Utah to go some distance away from his stego friend once every 9 minutes

[cold spindle]

Yeah i don't mean literally 10 minutes but obviously it'd have to be implemented so people who are literally passing through and not actually mixing don't get affected

[slim dragon]

It also makes it so if a group of utahs try to hunt a stego for more than 10 minutes, they go insane

[cold spindle]

Yeah but actively hunting a stego and sitting with a stego are 2 very different things

[slim dragon]

Proximity-based debuffs are NEVER a good solution for this kind of behaviour

Unless you want the two species to never interact with each other

[slim dragon]

And the game is supposed to be able to tell the two apart ?

[cold spindle]

Well yeah it can if somethings getting damaged or attacking then it's not mixing and there are systems that can detect that stuff

As I said I develop indie games and have put similar thing in place in team based games I have worked on

[slim dragon]

So the utahs must manage to succesfully land a hit AT LEAST once every 10 minutes
I guess it's doable, but not really optimal if you're a bleeder

[slim dragon]

Things that work in other games don't necessarily work in The Isle
In Elden Ring, you can summon other players to help you finish off a boss
I doubt that allowing people to summon their friends from another server to help them kill someone else would be well appreciated in The Isle

[cold spindle]

Well yeah that's not what I'm saying dude 🙄 all I'm saying is SOMETHING needs doing to make them think about mixing and it's really not that hard to have a feature like that, I developed a multilayer game where if you're with the enemy team for to long without shooting them then you start losing health, obviously that wouldn't work for the isle but just as a reference that something CAN be done that'll be viable

[slim dragon]

Something CAN be done in a team-based shooter game. But this is a survival game, it doesn't work the same game at all. Who's the enemy team to a utah ? Stegos ? Carnos ? Hypsis ? Pteras ? Humans ? All of those ?

Would deinos lose health from staying near other deinos since they're cannibal and should consider others enemies ?

It's the same with "insanity" or stamina debuffs

If you wanna drink but are afraid there's a deino in the water, can't you just wait until you get some debuffs to see if there's a deino nearby ?

[cold spindle]

Again I used that as a reference dude not saying that exact thing should be implemented, you're completely missing the point

[slim dragon]

What prevents a ptera from driving anything insane just by flying over their heads ?

[cold spindle]

There are survival games out there with systems similar to what I referenced and they work really well

[slim dragon]

The crosses you get and which apparently made you salty are directed towards your feedback. Your feedback mentions proximity-based debuffs, so there's nothing else to look for.

[slim dragon]

Beasts of Bermuda is an example I guess ?

[cold spindle]

Eww no BoB is trash ngl

I more reference the survival games where insanity is a thing if you say stay in the dark too long or if you eat human flesh you start going insane etc, I get those are mostly single player survival games but again just references

[slim dragon]

The difference between a single-player survival game and a multiplayer one is enormous

[cold spindle]

And the crosses didn't make me salty at all, what makes me salty Is when I get killed by a utah when I'm a utah just cause I killed a baby stego or Something

[slim dragon]

That might have been unrelated

And devs don't intend on discouraging killing your own species

[cold spindle]

But utah eats utah and get muscle spasms etc you saying that's not a deterant?

[slim dragon]

Killing your own and eating them are two different things

[cold spindle]

I'm done with this convo tbh you're missing the point completely

[slim dragon]

Alright

[cold spindle]

Actually dude I'm sorry that's extremely rude of me you have some fair points that I'm not listening to because I'm annoyed that I've been killed like 10 times today by mixpackers, so again sorry for being so rude about it.

[slim dragon]

np I've seen much worse
I get that mixpackers are annoying, all I'm trying to say is that the solution you've proposed isn't a good one
I'm not even sure a good solution exists, apart from what I've said, better balance and better management of diets

[cold spindle]

Yeah my "solution" was written without much thought at the time I literally wrote it just after I was killed by another utah for literally killing his little stego friend 😅 I'm going to have a play around with some of the dev tools I have and see if I can throw something together that's viable and also fair. Sorry again dude

[slim dragon]

Don't worry, I guess we started the conversation wrong anyway. Have a nice day, and hope you can figure something out

[cold spindle]

You have a nice day too dude ill let you know if I figure something out but it's not am easy task in a game such as the isle.

[valid helm]

Yes but tbh the stress-system that Bob uses is a good thing to have and it works quite well. And it is obviously easy to implement if BoB can do it :D

[dusky surge]

BoB's stress system fucking sucks imho

I honestly dislike most of BoB's mechanics

[woeful barn]

I know this conversation is basically over but something else i've been thinking about is that another reason proximity debuffs don't really work in The Isle is because of the popular hot spots/gathering spots (major watering holes, mud pits, river junctions, etc.). Would be extremely hard to find natural resting spots where all gather, just like in the wild, if we couldn't all be near each other within x distance for x time without experiencing a debuff.

I also think one of the consequences that the communities has created is that when mixpacking is discovered, the community packs up and starts hunting them.

[alpine plover]

bruh i feel this game is so unbalanced. with the roster and current strength of certain dinos it feels like the devs just picked their favorites. having the only land carnivores being utah and carno makes utah a completely unviable pick compared to carno. I love utahs mechanics but having to cower in fear from carnos is extremely not fun. also carno is extremely easy to grow, your only threat as a juvi carno is adult utahs. juvi carnos can charge for ages and using it can outrun adult utahs. even as a 25% utah you still have to worry about juvi carnos. Carno in the first place is a direct counter to utah and making him completely busted does not help. sure "carno turns like a bus" but you cant outrun a carno forever. making a literal small game hunter the biggest and fastest carnivore is absolutely horrible idea. Have the devs acknowledged the current balance of dinos like stego and carno? You guys are doing a great job! but please balance the game before moving on to major content. I realize the game is hard to balance because there is more to the game then just stats on dinos. Hopefully the release of cerato will limit the carno players (because literally half of the server is a carno) less carno players means utah is a more viable pick! thank you for coming to my ted talk.

I hope a dev acknowledges this!

[dusky surge]

so sad to see people still hyping up cera to be something it isn't lmao

[covert cave]

corpse bully = god killing machine

[dusky surge]

corpse bully = capable of hunting and killing carno somehow

[stray venture]

it could kill it but like why would the carno just not run away or try to fight it in plains

[dusky surge]

because cera > carno and cera will kill it ez

[versed rune]

baboon mentality

[covert cave]

lmao

[alpine plover]

im not saying it will kill carnos. im saying there will be less carnos because people will play cera.

therefore utahs will not have to hide in the woods because theres less carnos

[dusky surge]

which is true, but you phrased it as some kind of carno killing messiah

[alpine plover]

yeah basically any carnivore thats bigger than carno, or any carnivore at all will help utahs case because there will be less carnos

[dusky surge]

cera is still smaller than carno

[alpine plover]

i said nothing about killing. just talking about giving players something else to play other than carno. as i said less carnos = better case for utah

[covert cave]

i agree wiith that i just thought you meant it would wipe the floor with carno

[alpine plover]

but some people will play it over carno which in turn is good for utahs

[alpine plover]

yeah carno would definitely control the fight because its speed and being able to disengage whenever it wants

[dusky surge]

(also probably being able to knockdown cera)

[covert cave]

personally i will play cera other than carno 100% of the time

[alpine plover]

lets hope cera has an ability that will help it hunt carnos

[dusky surge]

same probably, very excited for cera

[alpine plover]

like a pin or something

[dusky surge]

i hope it doesn't get anything of that sort lmao

it's goal is to go up and steal a carno's food, not kill the carno

[alpine plover]

so when other mid tiers get introduced will cera still be that body stealing monster that their terrified of?

[dusky surge]

ehhh

cera isnt even really a mid lmao

[alpine plover]

Carno should still be able to give Cera a good fight

If it's in open areas, and can use it's charge to knockdown

[dusky surge]

i honestly dont even think animals should be "terrified" of cera

more fed up with its bullshit and not willing to go through the bullshit of fighting it

[alpine plover]

wdym? i think its in the same bracket as allo, carno and the others

Depending on severity, Even an Allo would avoid a Cera from it's septic bite

septic bite?

i still don't see this "body stealing" thing working out for cera when the other dinos are introduced

Yeah, it's highly likely to have a bacteria bite status affect
Probably from attained from eating rotting corpses

Which would induce sickness, debuffs. Or other drain returns

i believe it dominating carno, but the others are not going to be afraid of cera.

[dusky surge]

barely. Carno barely even makes it into mid-tier

The next "mid-tier carnivore" after carno is 900kg heavier than it

[alpine plover]

Sure an Allo would stomp a Cera, but depending how strong the septic is, it likely will just avoid the interaction altogether with a Cera

[dusky surge]

"Septic"

[alpine plover]

Alberto's/Allo's, hell even something big as Acro wouldn't like gaining terrible long term affects if it's that strong

[alpine plover]

they all have strengths carnos is its speed. but i do agree that carno is the weakest

Therefore retaining it's corpse bully status without outright killing any of the mids as clean

theres no guarantee that cera will have a bite with a debuff.

There is a strong likelihood with recent dev comments

[dusky surge]

"strong likelihood" aka "vague comments potentially suggesting it"

[alpine plover]

it wouldn't really be the most sensible, "eating a rotten corpse gives you an edge in combat because of its bad breath"

[dusky surge]

imagine your whole-ass combat mechanic reliant on eating shitty food

[alpine plover]

"Close" was said in response to a Cera theory based on concept.

[alpine plover]

Bacteria, it's dangerous stuff even in irl

where did this corpse bully thing even come from? the video?

[dusky surge]

dev comments, trello, the video, everything ever mentioned about it

[alpine plover]

I wouldn't say whole
Without it, it could still be a strong defensive move at dealing with larger competition.

[dusky surge]

you realise you also have an insane swim-speed to help massively in escaping animals like allo

[alpine plover]

True

It's just another option

anything can "corpse bully" if its bigger. for example a carno would never stay at a body if a rex is there and a cera wouldn't either. i don't see this corpse bully thing lasting long term

[dusky surge]

its a corpse bully scavenger designed to steal and eat anything, regardless of quality

i'd rather that to another basic hunter

[alpine plover]

Ofc not, but it'd still be a far better scavenger
It doesn't need to ward off every competitor in a brawl
But it'd still have influence regardless of combat prowess with a bacteria bite. Acro/Allo can stomp Cera any day. But would they really want to if it means dealing with really shitty debuffs for a long time?

[dusky surge]

i just think cera should be far more defensively capable than other carnivores

doesnt need some special disease bite to do that

[alpine plover]

i dont think anything will be a basic hunter. this isn't legacy.

[alpine plover]

Doesn't need it, but it'd help elevate it based on conditions

[dusky surge]

i really want a defensively oriented predator, not another carno or utah

[alpine plover]

Ofc I'm not proposing it to outright slaughter Carno/Allo as a predator
Just to have the tools to stake it's claim as a kill, and be stubborn for it's size

defensive predator is very ironic

Honey badger/wolverine would like a word

[dusky surge]

is it? i'd imagine a lot of carnivores would end out being quite defensive

[alpine plover]

sure there dangerous but they werent built for defense they are also extremely good at killing things

sure they could be defensive but as a predator they arent built for defense

[dusky surge]

alright, but the cera's goal is to find some food, take it, then stop anyone from taking it from it

also the cera in concept art is never actually shown hunting shit

besides magy

but magy is meant to be its designated matchup

[alpine plover]

everyone has their opinion but i like cera, and i will be very dissapointed if its a really great scavenger

[dusky surge]

i'll be disappointed if its another hunter animal lmao

i really want cool defensive bastard animal

[alpine plover]

choose a herbivore than i guess

Cera's job is simple
I suspect the open gaping jaw is defensive in nature. Meant to ward off competing predators from approaching it head on

[dusky surge]

lmao no, there are going to be defensive carnivores

namely animals like sucho and spino come to mind

[alpine plover]

Making it a great defensive combatant at controlling space on a kill. Having a conditional threatening disease bite to make even significantly larger predators second guess from approaching

[alpine plover]

im sure there will be but if you want a defensive animal play a herbivore. im guessing you want it to be a carnivore based on defense?

[dusky surge]

if i wanted to play a herbivore i'd play a herbivore, but i want a defensive carnivore

[alpine plover]

Same concept as a porcupines quills. A lion is dramatically more faster/powerful. But is warded off from head on approaches because of the opposing animal's conditional defense

defensive carnivores are forced to scavenge and if thats your playstyle i guess cera will your main.

be*

Cera I imagine could still hunt

I'd definitely take on a Teno if it's feeling too cocky to run away

Tearing up juvie/small deinos

[alpine plover]

yes but what if it decides to run away?

[alpine plover]

Then it'd prey on the slower smaller Teno's

then i guess its a juvi hunter/scavenger?

Magy, Kentro, Dilo, Utah's will throw themselves at Cera to their deaths just like now

[alpine plover]

juvi hunter/scavenger/defensive combatant

[dusky surge]

honestly i see cera getting fucked by teno personally due to the stuns, especially if the cera is more realistically weighted

[stray venture]

I feel like its speed would be the thing making it scavenge it would be faster than teno but most things it could hunt would either be magy which would be risky or smaller things which or faster

[alpine plover]

Maybe for the averages maybe
Though it's hard to say if the gape attack will take priority over tail slams

[dusky surge]

i dont see cera being very fast

we dont even know if that's an attack lmao

[alpine plover]

teno will be good against all mids because its able to stun and attack easily and from a lot of angles.

[dusky surge]

nah, it's only good against pseudo-mids imho. Allo will stomp it in a brawl

[alpine plover]

Hey, if Carno can still kill a Teno without charge

cera with its dumb bites will get a tail to the face

Then Cera can too

carno are fast and can catch a teno off guard.

[dusky surge]

doesnt work like that, since carno has the advantage of a far heftier weight, thus can't be knocked down by tail slam

[alpine plover]

ceras best bet will to bait attacks. probably being a little fast on its feet with quick turns.

[alpine plover]

yes, i think carno will have the best chance against tenos. with allos being anything like they are in legacy will not be great against tenos. ceras are quick and can bait attacks.

[stray venture]

ceratos would have to dog pile or just go for the head and tank the claws

[alpine plover]

We'll see how the matchup goes with more info
I don't imagine Teno being a bad matchup for Cera tho

[stray venture]

its just tenos kit that messes with cerato

the stun and the fact it can knock it down just make it not worth the time

[alpine plover]

We know obviously that Cera is more agile than Carno

But not just how agile

How much damage is Cera's bite

Or if Cera has stun capabilities of it's own, or an indepth strat made from it's tool kit

tenos being defensive against mids and to fast for tyrants. makes tenos a fun great pick

not invincible and not extremely bad.

Teno is a golden example of combat balance

[half girder]

@open void i think thats called a bad carno player...

[open void]

or that carno becomes completely helpless after you break his legs

[half girder]

cuz its supposed to..

[molten turret]

doesnt look fully grown man

[half girder]

and i wouldnt say completely, he still has a chance

and if u can kill him why wouldnt u lol

[open void]

when carno is not fully grown I knock him down the same one just stun after my punches

[molten turret]

didnt know pachy could punch

[open void]

in size it is fully grown

[molten turret]

also it doesnt matter a pachy should be able to kill a carno

[open void]

but I do not deny that it was not a very good player because it was quite easy for me to lure him into the thicket and break him

[half girder]

i mean, he died to a single pachy..

its not possible unless youre pretty bad at the game

and what you said, "what could he do" maybe not try to fight u knowing he wont stand a chance, maybe ambush you, idk

[open void]

ye but hes tried to fight me with broken leg

and that was his last mistake

[half girder]

thats on him, the player

i dont get what your point of "what could he do"

[stray venture]

Not quite iirc a carno with a broken leg runs faster than a pachy and its kinda supposed to be helpless after its leg. Is broken its a speed based ambush predator why tf shouldnt it be?

[open void]

I mean, carno, who weighs almost 4 times more than pachy, can't do anything in a 1v1 fight when his legs are broken (and the fracture works very well, the main thing is to hit exactly) this is a serious imbalance

[open void]

in the end he tried to run away from me but lost all his stam and I caught up with him and finished him off

[stray venture]

skill issue

[open void]

ye definitely

[hasty coyote]

2 things:
1: Carno can dodge the ram quite easily or just charge the pachy, so the pachy either dies to the hit, dodges, or trades. A trade is generally better in a 1v1 because it cripples the pachy's only way of defense and its stam, while the carno just has a weaker bite and no stam loss.
2: Thats kinda the issue atm with pachy. Its either able to break and keep bashing until the predator dies, or its breaks mean nothing and the predator can still just run them down. Its in a fairly good spot atm (a pachy has to skill issue a carno to kill it, but can get a break and run), but pachy could use some tweaks to the ram itself to make it more consistent and a stam buff for running. also, just a general scent nerf for carnis because that stuff is wall hacks.

[half girder]

yes

[keen plover]

Carno with a broken leg will still rock a solo pachy yeah

The head fracture + leg fracture combo is the scary thing

Even then, if you had early hits, you should still win

[ocean wagon]

I mean yeah, pachy shouldnt be out right killing carnos. Pachys way of dealing with carno should be to break its leg and run off and hide. And with that said, the leg hit box detection for ram needs to be more accurate. A majority of the time what should’ve been a leg fracture to carno just registers as a body hit. Also carno needs to have a nerf to its running speed while leg fractured and to its tracking ability. Carno is a an open plains carnivore. It should not have bloodhound tracking ability in a dense forest. Logically I makes no sense

[half girder]

leg break sprint speed is fine imo

itll just make it easier for pachy to kill carno if its slower

[old hull]

almost like you should avoid getting your leg broken

[ocean wagon]

No carno with an iq higher than 12 is going to lose to a pachy in a 1v1 even while having a leg fracture.

[half girder]

i never thought of that

[half girder]

skill issue ig

[hasty coyote]

Yes, but pachy also already suffers from low amounts of stam. A carno can literally just run it down atm since the pachy will likely be low on stam after hitting the break.

[half girder]

pachy run stam should drain less

[hasty coyote]

Also, the breaks should be very impactful. If you tank a break from a pachy, you should back off right then. Staying to fight should be risky and likely cause more breaks.

[hasty coyote]

Yes, but then that causes the same issue you had as before, pachies are going to have an easier time killing carnos. That’s just something to accept, anything they do to help pachy survive also helps it kill carnos. In my biased opinion, it should be dangerous to fight a pachy head on. You should have to ambush it to win without consequences. Or skill issue the pachy to not get broken.

[half girder]

but rap pachys arent supposed to 1v1 carnos

they HAVE to fracture and ruun

[hasty coyote]

I personally prefer being a threat as a pachy, but that’s why I said my BIASED opinion. The break and run is hard to balance and would likely require major adjustments to stamina, breaks, and the headbutt.

[half girder]

yeah, i dont think they should nerf pachys to where they dont want you 1v1ing

thats why they nerfed turning

[hasty coyote]

Imo, an average pachy should break and run, but a good pachy should be a threat in a head on fight. However, an ambush should generally be an easy kill.

[half girder]

yes

[fallen vale]

@stray venture We don't know what Cerato has, he might have some sort of temporary "brace" counter ability to charges or something like that. These sparring fights based around stuns / pounces or similar abilities are way more interesting than another run and spam click at each others like Stegos and Deinos are. If you managed to get stunned all the time then you're doing something wrong. This game doesn't need more "Look at me I'm big, untouchable and I have one regular attack lets spam at each others now" type of dinosaurs

[stray venture]

It has been confirmed that cerato special will most likely not be a stun and instead some sort of infected bite from eating rotten corpses.

[fallen vale]

That sounds cool but seems more like rumors to me, I just really want to avoid another dino that doesn't react to any special abilities

Like a stego or deino which don't care for anyone around

Especially that Certato is supposed to be within the same weight category of Tenos, Carnos which are suceptible to all special abilities

[dusky surge]

i dont think that was confirmed at all lmao

[fallen vale]

Devs just answer vague stuff in relation to suppositions that people throw around in here and people be like "OMG CONFIRMED"

"Yo what about titanoboa?!"

"Pretty difficult technically and probably not fun gameplay but never say never"

"OMG TITANOBOA CONFIRMED"

[dusky surge]

i mean titanoboa is technically confirmed but yknow

[fallen vale]

So are the 46+ dinosaurs playable by 2056

https://tenor.com/view/elmo-shrug-不造-i-dont-know-gif-5094560

[stray venture]

it was heavily suggested by filipe after answering a theory I'm not saying its 100 percent true but it is heavily implied he literally said something like that its vague sure but its the closest thing to an actual answer anyone has gotten.

[dusky surge]

i still think that the sceptic bite is stupid

just discount venom

[hasty coyote]

@fallen vale I have 2 issues with your overall state of balance.
1: you want to decrease the turning radius of carno, but that’s just going to make it turn faster and negate its main weakness. Pachies already have trouble with tail riding from carnos, and this will make it even worse. Unless you are trying to say that you want them to turn slower, that I can agree with, but isn’t the root cause of the issue, the herbies were nerfed too hard.
2: Pachies still have issues. The main play style is supposed to be “break and run” for carnos. The breaking part is in a decent spot, maybe make the ram more consistent, but the running is near impossible. By the time pachies get a break, they are already low on stam, so a carno can just run them down. Rib break won’t help until the pachy is basically out of stam, carno is nearly the same speed as pachy with a leg break and it will have more stam, and head fractures don’t entirely stop carnos from just running you down still. You have to get 2 breaks to fully stop a carno from chasing you, but then you’re outta stam.

[fallen vale]

I might need to rephrase then I meant increasing its turn speed

I edited it

They currently turn way too fast for their size / strenght / speed

They should be a forward hit and run / rince and repeat type of opponent

[hasty coyote]

I think they should just nerf the turning while drifting, so if you make a carno drift you have time to capitalize, but they are still able to fight off agile things like utahs

[fallen vale]

Maybe but at the moment they are just a faster better utah

they can follow quite easily utahs in turns now

Especially that the pounce is broken on top of it

[hasty coyote]

Yeah utahs and pachies have trouble shaking them off.

I just don’t want to end up with another triple buff like last patch

[dusky surge]

i personally like carno's current stats, i just HATE it's bleed and tracking

[fallen vale]

The problem is carnivores suffered big time from static herbivore herds around oasis in 4.0 which resulted in tons of body camping and carnos had increased hunger decay compared to now. I believe except for pachy which could too easily chain someone to death the combat balance if you removed stego was quite good. They addressed the obvious level design issues for the most part (except drinking through terrain which has the same effect as the oasis did) but on top of that added a bunch of nerfs and buffs which I believe were not that necessary. We see the result now carnos are just rampant. It's the easy mode of the game at the moment and cannibalism is not as prevalent because people are not afraid of loosing their carno to hunger as much

[hasty coyote]

All they needed to do to pachy was make the stun immunity longer and make like more than 2-3 hits consecutively do less or no damage. But they just made carnos immune from anything for 10 secs and nerfed ram. Plus they lost the protection of other herbies. So now it’s showing the other flaws in pachy

[fallen vale]

I don't think carnos are immune from bashes for 10 sec at the moment. Haven't tested that much pachy this patch however I'm pretty sure I have no seen any sort of stun immunity when I played it

[rapid flicker]

To be honest the way for carno to deal with agile things is Alt bite and straight line running speed. They should be an ambush predator and do strave runs, not the ballerina shenanigans that we have now.

[golden coral]

Carno should not be ambushing with that charge, since it's rather bad for it, much less do hit/run or anything similar. It should be a pursuit predator if anything.

[rapid flicker]

There is a hefty immunity on them though, maybe not 10 seconds, but 5+ atleast! ( Coming from a guy who plays pachy every day )

[rapid flicker]

I mean if either a pachy or utah gets hit with a charge they get instakilled. So why not charge?

[fallen vale]

You missed my point. I meant I mean you create space and use terrain to build momentum again. If you're running accross the plains with no cover what so ever it's obivously not a good ambush tool

[golden coral]

I didn't say not use charge. I said that charge is not a good ambush tool (needing distance, making noise). But really, carno shouldn't be charging, it's a strange mechanic for an animal that should really just run things down and maul them quickly.

[golden coral]

But since you're supposed to be running over the plains that has little cover as a carno, that's, kind of what I mean. Carno is not an animal that is supposed to use terrain/cover like that, it's one of the ones that should prefer entirely open areas with nothing in the way, due to it's speed and all that.

[fallen vale]

You mean another dino that runs straight at you to spam bite you? Amazing game design. I look forward to it

[dusky surge]

the charge is literally perfectly designed for ambushing and awfully designed for pursuit unless the person you are chasing is literally dumb

[calm ibex]

you could just drastically increase the speed given by ram 🙂

[rapid flicker]

With the new acceleration buffs for carno the amount of time to reach top speed (and charge speed) is pretty short and good carnos can use charge last second so you dont make the noise until you are right next to your target.

[fallen vale]

And I disagree, Charge is super good for ambushing, both when unseen coming across a bush / behind a hill or something or when there's this 2-3 seconds of inatention because another member of your pack is holding their attention and you come from another direction using the minimum charge distance.

https://youtu.be/FIf8q0wNpgM like this

[dusky surge]

idk why people hate the idea of an extremely fast animal that runs in straight lines ambushing lmao

it has small stamina, high speed, poor turn. That's literally perfect for specifically ambushes

[golden coral]

Yes, the carno would be a critter that does just that honestly. Besides, how is "hit and run" any more different, you're doing the same thing, just more than once.

[fallen vale]

Love it, but I think a lot of carno players want to just run straight at something spamming left click

It's obvious when you check how they play out there on official servers

[golden coral]

No. Noise, distance required, that does not make for an ambush tool. That's not what a proper ambush is. Carno should be designed for pursuit, or given better ambush tools if you want it to sit in a spot and wait for something to come within a step or so of reach.

[golden coral]

And then you give it a mechanic that requires distance and makes noises before hitting. You.. do see how that counters the entire idea of ambush, right?

[rapid flicker]

i have to dissagree on the "poor turn" part

[fallen vale]

You don't get it. The noise is to give a queue, most players don't have the reaction time to properly dodge especially if you do some minimal charging distance and don't come from 200 meters away. It's actually good game design to give some audio queues as of what is happening around

Good pvp stuff

Same with the new sounds added on death

As an example

[dusky surge]

Hence why the accel was buffed? Ambushes don't literally happen only two meters away

[golden coral]

Oh I get it, I just understand ambush a bit better. people can and will dodge if they have any sense, since you need to come running to use the charge in the first place no matter what.

[dusky surge]

The charge is LITERALLY an ambush move

[golden coral]

They kind of do though, that's you know, what it is. Something that happens before you can react, and with the charge, you have the time to react. It's not a strange concept.

[dusky surge]

It loses all potency if the target is looking at you and isn't dumb

Which defines an ambush move

[fallen vale]

No they don't dodge it what are you smoking lol. You can litteraly connect on any official server and I bet 90% of the clowns you'll face will never get out of the way if you're coming from a direction they are not directly facing and being close to minimal distance

[rapid flicker]

Can we talk about juvi carno's perma charging across the map to outrun utahs?

[golden coral]

Can you ambush things, sure. Is it a good mechanic for ambushing, no. Of course, if someone is just not paying attention you can walk up to them and kill them, nothing strange there.

[dusky surge]

Ambushes are reactable? Not every ambush is 100% inescapable lmao

[golden coral]

They can and do dodge. If you get hit by charge, you're a bad player, or just an inattentive one. It's not a difficult move to avoid, you know that.

[dusky surge]

You have a very odd view on ambushes

[fallen vale]

I'm glad that you're not balancing this game, Erik

[rapid flicker]

because i think this needs tweeking

[golden coral]

I could say the same to you. You clearly have no idea what you're on about, or you just run into bad players.

[dusky surge]

If it's a bad mechanic for ambushes, and a bad mechanic for pursuit, and a bad mechanic for brawling, what the fuck is it good for

[fallen vale]

lol, okay

[golden coral]

I coudl say the same to you, you seem to think ambushing means giving yourself away before you're on the target.

[dusky surge]

No?

[golden coral]

Very little honestly.

Well, the charge gives you away. It's as simple as that.

[dusky surge]

It's literally a good ambush move, it serves the purpose of an ambush move

[golden coral]

Right, so if I'm hiding right there, and you come near me, I can't use it cause I need distance.

[dusky surge]

High speed + good damage + knockdown to confirm a quick kill + avoidable if seen = literally an ambush move

[golden coral]

Yes, that makes perfect sense for an ambush.

[fallen vale]

Tell us Erik, how would you have the carno gameplay be like. I'm listening

[dusky surge]

Did you know that some animals tend to ambush outside of the touching range of their prey haha

[golden coral]

I would give it a focus mode, and turn it into a pursuit predator, if I were to design the carno. This means you'd have terrible turn normally, but short term focus (with high stamina drain) gives you great turn radius, so you can target one quick little critter and try to get it before you run out of steam, similar to a cheetah in the hunting method. Carno is an open plains animal, it is not an animal that should be hiding and waiting for a targe to come close, it's a line of sight hunter that sees something moving and goes for it.

[fallen vale]

It's even worse than I expected, thanks for the input. I suggest you post it in #balance-feedback

[golden coral]

Of course you can, but the more distance, the worse it gets. I mean, look at our deino then. That's ambushing, since you literally jump out at things. Carno does not that.

[dusky surge]

it is not an animal that should be hiding and waiting for a targe to come close
Which is not what the charge does

it's a line of sight hunter that sees something moving and goes for it.
Which perfectly fits the charge, if you use it from a place of stealth to attack swiftly

[dusky surge]

Those are two very different kinds of ambush

But both do count as ambushes

[golden coral]

No, it's much better than what we have. But no, I wouldn't bother because they've clearly decided not to design carno like that. Which is a shame, because my idea would be much more fun all around.

[dusky surge]

if your definition of ambush is the only definition of ambush, then very few animals would even be able to ambush

[rapid flicker]

For who? Certainly not for the people playing the herbivors here

[golden coral]

I disagree. One is ambushing, one is not. And not really, you just need to have mechanics that doesn't require you to give yourself away in such a manner that you're rather easy to avoid.

[dusky surge]

Herrera wouldn't be ambush because it has to gain distance via climbing and isn't within bite range

[golden coral]

Considering we have no idea how herrera will hunt, it's kind of hard to say. You could make it so it just "hangs there" and drops down quietly on something that is right below it. That'd fit. Utah pounce is more of an ambush tool, since you can just outright get on the target, compared to the charge. I'm.. not sure how this is difficult to grasp. The charge requires you to be up, running, and thus you're already "in the open" giving yourself away.

[rapid flicker]

Carno is a god in the hands of a skilled player and the noobs only make a chance because their dino is overtuned

[golden coral]

I don't know what kind of players you people are charging, but charge is not that difficult to avoid, even if the carno only uses it right before impact.

[dusky surge]

Except animals don't have 360 degrees of vision so why the fuck would you assume they just automatically know that a carno is charging

[golden coral]

Since you'd, you know, see the carno come running even if it doesn't use charge.

[fallen vale]

Erik obviously wants his big carnivore to go at other players doing "WA WA" spam bitting anything near him. Carno is extremely strong at the moment, too strong probably even. You obviously can't manage to play your carno if you think landing charges is something so difficult. Learn to play it and you will se that he is indeed a strong ambusher, the strongest even

[dusky surge]

the amount of times i have been ambushed, and i mean ambushed, by a carno, exceeds the amount a deino has ambushed me

[fallen vale]

Look Erik, ambushes. One after the other.
https://youtu.be/5XoEqcmjHss

[calm ibex]

its really easy to get hit by charge if something distracts the "prey" for even a second

[golden coral]

Do you have any actual arguments or are you just going to refrain from using whatever braincells you have for a bit longer? At what point did I talk about "spam biting". I'm talking about if charge is good for ambush or not, and that I think carno should be a pursuit predator instead. I've said nothing about how good carno is or is not right now, or anything like that. But I do know how to avoid a carno trying to charge me, which apparently you've yet to figure out. Charge is not good for ambush, even if you obviously can charge something not paying attention. But if that's your criteria then well, I disagree with it.

[fallen vale]

This. Or using a bush / dead zone behind a nearby hill. Players in a fight will quickly forget about you for a split second at least which is more than enough.

[golden coral]

Can you give a specific time for that great ambush of yours? And sure, if something is distracted, which again, requires that something before hand then

[fallen vale]

https://tenor.com/view/eye-roll-robert-downey-jr-sassy-over-it-ugh-gif-3635563

[stray venture]

Yeah I do as well mainly because most likely they will have it be all it has against carno instead of something added onto of it's kit.

[golden coral]

Sounds more again, like bad players, good targets, but bad players.

[fallen vale]

This game is filled with good players, obviously when you go on an official server that's all you meet

[calm ibex]

its pretty common to run into carnos nowdays that send in like 1 carno and keep 1 or 2 in reserve, waiting to get perfect charge on while first carno keeps prey occupied.
just an example, but this is the most common way for me to lose utahs

[golden coral]

Considering that most deinos are well, not that good in general, and the current issues with water being "bugged" and other spots, that does not surprise me at all. Much less with the amount of carnos we have in the game at that. ^^

[dusky surge]

i like how you just think that everyone is constantly got 360 degree knowledge of their surroundings at all time otherwise they're "bad"

[calm ibex]

also i use alt to CONSTANTLY look around, but its not enough

[golden coral]

I can't tell if you're being serious or not there. Look, you think it's rather easy to land a charge, I think it's not because I've yet to be charged, much less ambushed, by a carno if it wasn't for me completely going "Ah yes, I know there's a carno there, but I'mma ignore it to look at the pumpkin here" or similar situations, which are all on me not paying the slighest bit of attention.

[fallen vale]

From Erik: Charge is not good for ambush, even if you obviously can charge something not paying attention.
Charge is extremely good for ambushing, it's even the best ambush move in the game after Deino lunge (when it works)

[dusky surge]

I do look around but I'll be damned if a carno hasn't ambushed me with that charge when I let my guard down

[fallen vale]

We all do this is so dramatic and ridiculous

[golden coral]

You're wrong. It's not a good ambush move, even if you can hit something not paying attention. But that does not make it a good ambush move, since again, you have to give yourself away to use it. That's what makes it bad, since if you've given yourself away, you won't be hitting someone paying attention. It's not a difficult concept to understand at all.

[fallen vale]

A minute of silence for Erik who can't land a charge

[golden coral]

And a minute of silence for you who can't avoid a charge.

[calm ibex]

i feel like half of what makes carno player stand out is knowing how to get charge off

[golden coral]

Which comes down to "is the prey distracted" or not, if I'm to go by some comments. Or perhaps, is the prey not paying attention or not.

[fallen vale]

Sure lol

[dusky surge]

ambush:
make a surprise attack on (someone) from a concealed position.

carnos CAN make a surprise attack from a forest to charge someone. There is ALWAYS a point in the ambush where the ambusher is revealed, but the general concept is such a timeframe is generally short, and for this reason, charge IS an ambush move. By all accounts, since one can wait to use the charge until the prey's diversion is diverted, this would mean charge fits the definition of ambush

[golden coral]

Not like it's hard to land a charge on something that doesn't see you coming, but if it doesn't, then it's well, on that target, rather than charge being good in the situation.

[calm ibex]

its a survival game right? not some righteous duel in a middle of green field with zero disruptions

[dusky surge]

I honestly wish I had your level of carno ESP to always avoid charges and never be hit, regardless of angle or circumstance

[golden coral]

It is, and that's why I'm surprised on this whole "I keep getting hit by charges", since you know, you'd expect that and keep an eye out.

[golden coral]

Maybe you should just think three steps ahead or however that goes :p

[dusky surge]

yes, i should simply KNOW carnos are hidden and preparing an ambush

[calm ibex]

regardless, endurance predator carno would In my opinion be the worst thing to do with carno

[golden coral]

And yes, you can obviously hide in a bunch of trees and run from there, I never said you couldn't. You guys seem to be stuck on some form of extreme here. I'm saying, charge is not a good ambush tool. Not that you can't somehow get an ambush off in some manner, I'm sure, if you angle it enough. But that still does not make the charge a good tool for ambushes, just because it can be done and used.

[golden coral]

Yes, just like you should always expect a deino in the water, no? :p But maybe I'm just more paranoid, since I always look at bushes and stuff and think "could that hide a pachy, or utah" and remain ready to react if so. But that could just be me.

[golden coral]

Good thing I don't think anyone wanted that :p

[alpine plover]

Idk what Erik is on about

The charge can do knockdowns at the tip of tails, given Carno's speed in account. It's rough to avoid when timed well

With some testing, a Carno player can adjust an angle of a charge to make it really difficult, based on reflex to narrowly avoid.

[dusky surge]

well actually, after last patch, it shouldn't

[alpine plover]

Then hopefully it's desync then

Or server ping

Cause rn Carnos are getting a tough to avoid even with timing

The competition doesn't measure up in numbers or in power currently either on the averages

If you want to keep the balance where it's at, cool. Then lower the growth times for Pachy/Teno
Fix Pounce yet again

[versed rune]

it cant do that anymore

sometimes youll just be charging and the game says "no" even if u hit their body

but thats a hitbox issue

anyone who says carno isnt good rn is either dumb or lying. but it's weird because carno could actually use some buffs. the only thing is that everything else right now is so insanely crappy that buffing it atm wouldnt make sense.

[wise sparrow]

The isle. You will not hit it.

[versed rune]

literally not worth playing anything other than carno or stego atm

[thin mantle]

Well, and teno

And Pachy

[versed rune]

teno and pachy are terrible rn

theyve never posed an issue at all to me this build

well actually

pachy might be better now, havent really tested

but again the herbivore food spawns make herbies worthless

[wise sparrow]

Teno and pachy would be okay but the game panders to carnivores so much that there is always about 5 carno in every group

[versed rune]

the game doesnt pander to carnivores. look at utah

[thin mantle]

Well stat wise their incredibly competent, their only issue is population numbers

[wise sparrow]

Pachy is good in groups but is still a free kill for literally anything if it dares not play with a million people

[versed rune]

optimal carno stats i believe would be 1,850 health, 300 charge damage, and 200 bite damage, with a slight turn nerf from what it is now.

meanwhile tenonto should have 1,650 health, 300 tail slam damage, 200 kick damage, and have his stam cost on attacks cut in half

[wise sparrow]

Utah has always been bugged.
Diets, mao design, herbivore food placement, tracking, sent, it all supports a HUGE carnivore population while forcing herbivores to waltz right into their megapacks

[versed rune]

make teno able to match carno's power and not tire easily, while carno can dish out a crud ton of damage if he ambushes it

[versed rune]

this build yea its heavily carni favored

tracking is also bs

[thin mantle]

(Teno can already out dps Carno)

[versed rune]

but the build before this was herbi favored

it just metronomes

[wise sparrow]

Teno can shit on a single carno but it cant run nor fight more than 1

[versed rune]

kick spam, right?? yea that's kinda bs

[thin mantle]

I mean, if you’re good, you can

[versed rune]

there's such an easy way to balance teno v carno and the fact they havent figured it out yet baffles me

[wise sparrow]

That was because oasis was a herbivore fortress. Imo U4 balance may have been okay with some tweaks once they removed oasis, (and never added that godforsaken rock in that new river)

[versed rune]

that too

how did they NOT see that rock and realize its a bad idea

[wise sparrow]

Because when have the devs ever thought anything through?

[versed rune]

copy pasting herbie diets onto carnivores

[wise sparrow]

They are being outcompeted by a small group that started making their first game like 3 years ago

The isle has been out for close to a decade and hasn't made any progress at all

The only reason its relevant atm is because it had a huge ass head start

what?

[versed rune]

dw about it

but yea the point is, balancing evrima rn isnt hard

but they refuse to do it

very summarized version but basically

slight buffs to teno, utah, pachy, carno, dryo, ptera, with a sprint turn nerf on carno

tone down stego and deino's health, with a slight damage buff so that deino can still 1 shot pachy and utah after they get slight hp buffs

hypsi doesnt matter

[small gorge]

Why would an in-game map be a bad thing?

[umbral inlet]

Won’t humans get in game maps?

[umbral inlet]

Also I don’t think in game map would be a bad thing. I mean, if it’s done right. I imagine a map menu you can open, that’s like a fog of war thing, but everywhere you explore gets revealed in a really basic way. Like really simple topography, made out of different color dots that look like the same dots in the compass or that scent particles used to be made of. But no markers for where the Dino is on the map. We would need to read the topography and compare it to what we see to figure out where we are.

[white cove]

@fallen vale after some more gameplay as carno utah and deino, I do agree stego needs maybe an HP or blood debuff

I do think it should be able to 1 shot carnos to the head though

as it really drives home the point that if you do choose to go for a stego then you should aim for its head and protect your own

[wise sparrow]

All stego needs is a blood nerf and to actually make stegos need to eat

If you nerf stego in any other way you have to nerf deino to prevent it from waltzing up onto land unchallenged

(#4TonStego&6tonDeino)

[half girder]

only thing making pachy pretty good rn is tap charge

but its a bug so solo pachy will sort of be unplayable again

keep stun window and revert turning or lower stun window and keep turning

i dont mind the bug not being a thing anymore soon, cuz pachy is pretty busted rn

[wise sparrow]

Devs when carno can get a bug that causes them to get dryo agility and even more speed: I sleep

Devs when solo pachy is viable: Real Shit

[half girder]

fr

a small dino being able to be tail ridden is just hilarious, if pachy hit harder sure but sheeesh

[wise sparrow]

Devs ignoring their code burning down so they can nerf dryo:

[half girder]

dryo has to be the most boring dino in the game, dont care for it except it being ai

i killed an adult once as a hatch utah

think that dino is supposed to be the one that must eat grass and die

[wise sparrow]

Dryo used to be slightly faster than utah and had much more stamina but they nerfed it because they couldn't bear to see their JP velociraptor oc loose a chase

[half girder]

thats y they threw it in, they dont care for it

obv.

[fallen vale]

The idea behind not allowing one shots is that carnos will attempt to bleed dry stegos more often. Now they don't even try as they know anything can be fatal. If tenos could one shot carnos to the head they would not play tenos either

I meant like you take a hit to the head and you're left with like 5% hp

fight is over unless you're an idiot

but knowing that they will attempt stegos more often

[half girder]

losing a chase a utah is either a skill issue or game bug where the tracks poof

almost impossible to lose a hunt rn and its sad

[golden coral]

"Downsize" both stego and deino, 4T each, then they can both be hunted (give deinos more hydration time but make them have to be on land to bask or something so they are properly vunerable too)

[white cove]

no, it'll lead to every carno trying to dry bleed stegos

since they will certainly not be killed should they mess up as they can just run and sit

1 shot has to stay* or every stego is going to be harassed by every carno, not just the bold ones

1 shot to the head exclusively, as it punishes you for fucking up and rewards positioning

[fallen vale]

I really don't think so and carnos have very predictable movements. Especially if their turn speed gets slightly nerfed. At the moments stegos are a complete useless joke made specially for grieffers

They will be very easy to send to the graveyard and it takes a while to regen 95% of a carno

you can't just go and sit to regen to attack again from a stego tail to the face

[white cove]

If it doesn't kill you then you quite literally can lol

just matters how long your fast and unchaseable mates can keep eyes on the stego

1 shot head needs to stay or small game hunter carno becomes better at dealing with stegos than utahs

[golden coral]

And all of these issues due to roster choice.. I still think removing stego for now and maybe downsize the deino and make it far more vunerable would be the best choice. Deino would still be fine, while stego can get a proper rework and all.

[white cove]

Stego doesn't really need a proper rework, just proper predators

which utah and carno aren't

shoulda been kentro

[golden coral]

No, it does need a rework, since our current stego isn't well designed for being a stego. Also lack of moving attacks and other such issues, plus well, mirror matchups aren't that impressive, so something should be done there. Even deino is just a touch less bad, though it also needs help on that account.

[tall bronze]

Just wanna say I am in full support of the idea to swap Stego and Deino for Kentro and Bary respectively until a later date.

[fallen vale]

You over estimate what players will face on average playing this game on official servers loll

There's not much brain power involved

[mental roost]

Me see thing. Me attack thing. Do not give up till thing die, or I die. Repeat.

[fallen vale]

Don't forget crying on discord for nerfs and buffs

https://tenor.com/view/drooling-slobber-spongebob-patrick-star-yummy-gif-16742378

[half girder]

feels like isle went with a stationary attacking stego to avoid it being too much like pot stego

joking ofc.

they’ll never remove stego or swap it cuz it’s done, they’re not touching it. but if they do then the gods truly have blessed us

[fathom wren]

#balance-feedback message 10000% agreed @versed rune

[hollow canyon]

Carno has 0 reason to even think about approaching an adult Stego, idk why you're even discussing it. It's like the last predator on the roster that should be thinking about having a go at a Stego.

As for Dryo - back during the days of update 3 and 3.5 this animal was actually broken level of good. It had absurd damage output, was extremely easy to grow and could actually maul a lot of stuff, especially in a pack. That didn't change the fact that like 5 people played this animal at any given time on officials.

[dusky surge]

true, its so frustrating to see people whine about not being able to deal with stego as the animal which, by all accounts, should be least equipped to do so

[hollow canyon]

Wave?

Why have you lost the colours?

Taking holiday, are we?

But yea, I think this might be caused by the fact that we simply have a very small roster.

That's why certain animals just seem... too strong?

[dusky surge]

ah, massive QA reform

lots of QA are just gone lmao

[hollow canyon]

Oh, I see

[dusky surge]

very true

it also leads to odd pre-conceptions about what animals will do what. People want animals to be solutions, not actual inhabitants, and this is VERY notable with cerato

[hollow canyon]

Like Carno is strong vs most things on the roster - it's meant to be, because those are the animals it hunts. Throw it against something larger or more armoured like Dibble or Kentro and it should instantly become much less capable.

[dusky surge]

carno needs to deal with stego because people don't like stego. cera needs to deal with carno because people don't like carno

[hollow canyon]

Yea...

That's just a whole wrong attitude imo

[keen plover]

People complaining about stego when carno is the biggest "problem" in the roster

[hollow canyon]

I mean we have a wrong roster for Carno to be, it's as simple as that. Almost every animal is on the menu for it.

[keen plover]

It's quite funny tbh. People think utahs, carnos and deinos should have a chance against stego. Utah packs sure, but the other 2 just don't have the tools for stego. They see herbivore, and they want it to be killed. I see more complaints of people wanting carnos to kill stego than deino.

Can't blame them though, they think everything should have a chance due to how pvp focused the game is

Currently and in the past

[alpine plover]

That's not true, only nerfing carno would do absolutely nothing except you make it utterly garbage

[hollow canyon]

It's not so much that Carno is a problem because of its stats, it's a problem conceptually in the current roster.

[keen plover]

Carno is the biggest issue in the current game. Everything else can be avoided. I put it in quotes as more of a joke. People complain about other playables, yet carno is literally the main reason you will die.

[hollow canyon]

Its very presence is a problem

[keen plover]

Like all my deaths are caused by carnos. Is that a problem? I guess? Do I mind that much? no

[hollow canyon]

I'd say that for the most part single Carno currently works as it should, the issue is that they get to pile up into a giant deathball that just rolls around the map killing everything due to their sheer numbers

[keen plover]

Yeah, just earlier

I saw like 2 separate megapacks

[alpine plover]

Carno is the biggest land predator so it's not weird to me you get mostly killed by them

[hollow canyon]

It would be much less of a problem if we had some 30 animals in the game

[keen plover]

You're reading too much into it

[hollow canyon]

Carno wouldn't have a good match up against most of them and there would be larger carnivores in the game, capable of showing Carno where it belongs

[keen plover]

I'm not saying it's a bad thing to have. My point was, if you were going to complain about any other playable. Carno is the biggest issue

[alpine plover]

Carno is a problem because there is to many carnos, and how is that fixed, give him competence

[keen plover]

Carno will fall more in line when we have larger mid tiers and larger overall dinos, yeah. I wonder how it will perform when most people are maia/allo sized

[hollow canyon]

meanwhile right now we're in this awkward situation where it's the biggest terrestrial carnivore, nothing hunts it aside from Deinos and Utah packs - and the latter start struggling against Carnos the moment there's more than one Carno - while also having a roster of animals that make up for an eat-all-you-want buffet for Carno.

[keen plover]

I don't see a proper way to balance the carno numbers. Most people will play carno, so you'll always see a lot. The grow time + stats just make it too good

[hollow canyon]

Give me a second, I will just send you to my suggestion as to what to do about it

[keen plover]

Ok

[hollow canyon]

#general-feedback message

[alpine plover]

Carno has the stego problem, you can't make it weaker without being too weak for it's size

[keen plover]

That is a good idea honestly. How feasible, idk. But still

[hollow canyon]

I don't think that Carno is even that strong for its size tbh. I'm pretty sure the current Carno would get torn into shreds by something like an Allo or Alberto

Hell, I think one Allo/Alberto could likely take on multiple Carnos with a decent chance of success

Carno just doesn't dish out much damage to animals of that size

[keen plover]

Carno only being able to stun up to 2.7T means it has no chance against them. If stunning them was even going to benefit it at all since they can just move out the way

Like if you can stun, obviously it increases your chances

but not by a lot in this circumstance

[hollow canyon]

Yea both are too large to get stunned I think

Allo's like 2850kg or something atm

Alberto 3.2t iirc?

[keen plover]

Yeah carno is completely capped at 2.7T. Tried on both deino and stego

[hollow canyon]

Yea I know, it can stun things up to 1.5x its weight

[keen plover]

Imo, it should be lower anyway. Idk why it can even stun things that much larger

[hollow canyon]

^

up to its own size imo

[keen plover]

Same with pachy. A pachy can hunt things lower than 2.7T

[hollow canyon]

tbh Idk about Carno stunning another Carno and knocking down Tenonto

[keen plover]

Cap it at carno size

[hollow canyon]

wait... what?

Are you serious?

[keen plover]

Yep, you can hunt large stegos

[hollow canyon]

Pachy can stun things up to 2.7t?

[keen plover]

fracture

as well and damage decently

[hollow canyon]

Oh no, it can fracture anything and everything apparently, it just takes... a long, long time

but I was told you can fracture adult Deinos and Stegos by more than one person

[keen plover]

Nah it genuinely fractures in one full charge

against them around that size

Like 1 full charge on a head? head fracture. Maybe even tap charge fracture might work

Also another cool fact, juvie carnos can body fracture full pachys if you charge them head on. So you are useful in a fight against pachys if you stay in charge the whole time

so if a pachy charges at you, you charge them and you both get body fractures

[half girder]

fr?

thats weird

cool fact num 3, baby pachy can cancel full grown carno charge

[keen plover]

This game lol

[half girder]

also

tap fracture is back on purpose?

cuz if they keep this aids turning im fine with it

[keen plover]

Maybe? It's stupid though since you can rinse carnos and tenos so quickly

[half girder]

yeah its pretty busted

but with this bad turning im fine with it

[keen plover]

yeah you can still kill them 1 v 1 as most things or avoid them. Although teno kind of has to accept the fight

[hollow canyon]

I don't think Pachy should turn this awfully considering how small it is, obviously it shouldn't have the tap fracture either

[half girder]

agreed

carno can simply move aside when a pachy turns but noooooooo

[hollow canyon]

Someone wrote a feedback about how Carno with worse turning couldn't tailride Pachy - Pachy's turning is so atrocious that you can tailride the goddamn thing as Carno while running - Carno could do that even back in update 4.

[half girder]

i feel like itll feel way more nice

[hollow canyon]

It's just incomprehensible

[half girder]

1 missed charged n its ggs

even if u get another fracture ure still down one carno bite so

thats like 5-6 bites facetank

[keen plover]

Then they track you

angers me how bad the matchup is

solo that is

It also takes a hot minute for balance changes

[alpine plover]

With pachy what devs should do is that you cant heal the legs if you use them

[hollow canyon]

I think that running and trotting should just cause the healing to take much longer

atm you heal it too quickly if you move

walking/standing is w/e

[half girder]

idk tho that would be pretty insane

i thought about it

[hollow canyon]

Yea, there would be issues if moving caused you not to heal at all

It should just take like 10 minutes if you trot and even longer if you run around

[alpine plover]

At least carno shouldn't be able to heal a leg fracture in 3 minutes while moving

Or make it really slow

That way pachy vs carno balance is fixed

I think it even should do damage, even if little or drain stam faster when walking with a leg fracture

[half girder]

they need to fix the damn fps at shallows and the visual bugs

i hit things on my screen

[keen plover]

carno needs to also have a reduced bleed value, and the worst carni tracking in the game

[half girder]

and they just slide

[alpine plover]

I understand the bleed thing but why the tracking? Doesn't make me sense

[half girder]

riverside wallow def should return

tracking is just too strong rn

with bleed ontop of that

[keen plover]

Firstly, the current tracking is something rex should have. Even then, the cone to show you where the next footprints are is too easy and different to what they had planned as "hard' tracking iirc
Secondly, carno is the fastest carnivore in the game, so it has the advantage of quickly dispatching prey items. There is no need to also give it a good tracking ability.

[alpine plover]

What I do think is only bleeders should have a good blood tracking

[keen plover]

I agree with that as well

If you as a carno miss your prey initially and then lose sight of it, you don't deserve to continue hunting it imo.

[alpine plover]

And with footprints, they have to be more separated

[keen plover]

At the very least, it should be very, very hard to. The worst tracking ability in the game imo

[half girder]

very true stuff

[alpine plover]

Def, probably coming with weather update, and only after a river increases it's flow or after raining

[half girder]

hopefully

[vocal minnow]

👍

its almost impossible to run away with the current tracking system

[native bridge]

thanks god we have this tracking system 😉

[supple basin]

Maybe adding more puddle to wallow could do the job instead of nerfing the tracking system

[native bridge]

if u nerf the tracking system every herbies would be able to escape in the forests and carnivores would starve. and yes...hunting AI is not funny.

[vocal minnow]

xd

[dusky surge]

no they wouldnt lmao, you have eyes

[old hull]

you also have ears and can listen for their footsteps

[vocal minnow]

depends on the carni how good its tracking is

[vocal minnow]

but not unlimited stamina

[native bridge]

you may nerf carno's ability but do not touch raptors 😄

[vocal minnow]

i think the same way

carno shouldnt have a good tracking

it has to fight in the open and not follow dinos in the forest

[thin mantle]

Only a couple carnivores should have tracking as good as current tracking. Utah’s also needs nerfs. Not nearly as significant, but still.

[native bridge]

why u think it needs a nerf? actually it needs to be debugged lol.

[wise sparrow]

There is nothing you can do against utah as anything that cant fight it. So if you're something like a dryo you will die because they can just track you forever with no way to get away because dryo's crouch is pain

[thin mantle]

Because:
1: Literally no animal should have the cone.
2: You shouldn’t be able to see footprints through obstacles, that defeats the whole point of using rough or cluttered terrain to obscure yourself.
3: Utah is faster than all of its prey items, one of the fastest dinos in the game with an incredibly useful jump. Few places on the map render a prey item inaccessible for them, so losing your prey in any circumstance regardless of tracking is kinda your fault already. This is especially true considering half of utahs herbivorous prey items can’t crouch (even though all animals should have a “crouch like stoop” to cover their tracks)

[dusky surge]

i disagree with point 2 but point 1 and 3 are valid

smelling through plants is cool and its the one thing i do like about the system

[thin mantle]

Makes the system way too easy

[dusky surge]

Ehhh, it also makes it feel more realistic and makes it more like "scent"

If it were balanced AROUND the ability to see through obstacles, it would be way more forgivable, but it does everything

[thin mantle]

I don’t really care much about realism implications in this way, it makes the system far less engaging to interact with and really easy to use

Not that I completely disregard realism ofcourse, but the outliers are immense and this is foremost a game

[dusky surge]

It's more about how it actually feels like scent and creates a third sense which isn't essentially sight but delayed. Scent being able to track through obstacles does, in my opinion, make it a unique addition to the senses. However, the scent does too much at once, and there should be a lot taken from it, but the ability to track through obstacles shouldn't be one

[thin mantle]

Already being able to isolate and highlight traces of a specific animal is more than unique enough for me, but when you can literally see straight through solid obstacles for their footprints it dramatically decreases the effect terrain has on tracking, actually it completely removes that component aside from water and mud, which is much less interesting, engaging, and strategically involved as a system than if you couldn’t. I don’t see how being able to make specific dino tracks on the ground glow isn’t enough.

[dusky surge]

i think it should remain so that we can have animals with better tracking be more adept to forested life

whereas animals like carnotaurus would have very poor tracking, relying more on sight and sound

[thin mantle]

Well then it should slide on a scale of effectiveness

I’d say that very few animals should have tracking good enough to see tracks through anything

No animal specific to open areas should ofcourse