balance-feedback-discussion

[harsh lark]

When the hell did I say that?

[deft blaze]

Misread what you said

[harsh lark]

all good but this convo is going in circles anyways

[keen plover]

Better spot? It will eventually need to drink. You can apply the pressure at all times. Which is pretty much griefing. Herdmates? fair point I guess. Also you have limited stam, so you won't be able to constantly swing. Also how are you expected to outheal a pack? They can get 16 full pounces on you now that they're 2 shot. Assuming you hit them every time they dismount.

[deft blaze]

But still, a utah could always back off and rest on a rock while the rest of their group attacks, as soon as their bleed is healed they could just go back in regardless be it to fight or apply pressure

[harsh lark]

A stego having to drink isnt an opportunity and it going into shallow water makes it a 1000x worse target for utah

[keen plover]

That's assumptions outside of the matchup. Assuming that other things are there is bad balance. Also as long as they heal their bleed, they're essentially as capable as current utah in terms of getting pounces in. Which is enough to kill current stego

Technically, I can currently watch a utah pounce a stego as a carno. Now it has low stam, easy pickings.

[harsh lark]

Also, I'm not gonna deny that this change would obviously make utah stronger and help it win in more engagements. Buts that literally what the intent is because in the games current state Utahs can't feasibly be expected to regularly threaten stego when they have to roll the dice on an hour investment every attack.

[dusky surge]

my man i just want a pounce fix

[harsh lark]

Why is it such a bad thing for a creature to not be instantly oneshot by a spammable tail whip?

[keen plover]

not spammable, it has limited stamina

[dusky surge]

because the creature is a small-tier taking on a fucking apex with giant spikes

[harsh lark]

in update 3 maybe, but stegos stam got buffed enough that it wont run out as long as you swing when you should

[keen plover]

That's not spamming then

[dusky surge]

again, why not make utah just take a rex bite?

in this case, why not just let utah tank every apex

[harsh lark]

Its a small tier specially meant to take on apexes in packs. If you want it to do that you need to ensure it can do it more reliably than "oh boy i sure hope lag is in my favor today"

[deft blaze]

The small dinos are supposed to fight in packs specifically because they're weak as shit

[dusky surge]

even if the rex is hunting it and successfully gets an ambush, and the utah was in no way prepared for the attack or in combat, if stego gets resisted, why wouldn't a rex?

[keen plover]

But if they can take a hit.... They can literally kill everything with no counters. Their weakness is that they're 1 shot

[dusky surge]

then they should work on the lag rather than a mechanic that compensates on the lag

[harsh lark]

Fighting in a pack doesn't fix the experience for each individual pack member and the one guy who inevitably gets screwed over by the game.

[dusky surge]

imagine stopping working on fixing latency and pounce issues to make a mechanic that makes utah have a weird resistance in the case that these bugs DO happen and actively fucks with the game balance

[keen plover]

Also, if they can take on a stego feasibly to take hits, what about the dinos in between?

Or is only utah getting this benefit

[dusky surge]

apparently, only utah

i asked about other animals and only utah

[harsh lark]

and in the meantime they should hotfix temporary balances to fix current issues. It's not an alien concept

[dusky surge]

but that balance adds as much issues as it fixes

[deft blaze]

That's the point, it's high risk high reward, i'm not saying the lag isn't a problem but 9 times out of 10 at least 1 utah in a group will die

[dusky surge]

if not far more

we have literally LISTED the issues that this change would cause

[harsh lark]

what issues? that a 1% utah will magically slay your stego thanks to getting a second wind?

hey, I'm not denying that if you're in a fight thats close then yeah you might lose a stego from that, but if you're beating the crap out of the utahs right off the bat and they're not getting any lengthy pounces on you they're not gonna accomplish crap swapping in and out to slowly heal back up to their safety net all the way from 1% hp + bleed

[dusky surge]

I haven't even started on how this will fucking ruin juvi and sub-stego's survival chances, as the entire survival of these animals relies on getting a good hit to the utah before your bleed is quickly depleted

[harsh lark]

Juvi herb balance is already a joke, at that point we might as well forget nerfing any herb at all because good heavens what will the already useless juvies do?

juvies and subs should be balanced based on their own merits, not in relation to adults.

[dusky surge]

how the hell you gonna balance juvi stego if it cant kill utahs

the bleed will shred them unless they can kill and rest quickly

[harsh lark]

making juvies not shit? giving herbs a crouch? Not making tracking system completely flawless?

[dusky surge]

i dont see how that improves the fact that you've made any stego juvi thats seen by a utah for but a moment a dead animal

[harsh lark]

not to mention at this point the time investment/power dynamic is completely backwards

do we need to buff juvi stego so it can take on a carno next too?

[dusky surge]

i just want bugs fixed, not workarounds instead of working on fixing the bugs

i would rather live with a buggy utah than a buggy utah with extremely weird balance choices to compensate for being buggy

[harsh lark]

thats great to hear and all, share the sentiment, but I don't go wishing to shooting stars for magic to happen instead of reasonable and feasible fixes that could be made in the short term instead

[dusky surge]

just fix the fucking utah

"reasonable" is debatable

in fact, it's been debated for quite a while by multiple people here

[harsh lark]

not getting oneshot in a game that expects you to invest up to 2 hours is unreasonable somehow...

[dusky surge]

feasible, i guess, it wouldn't be HARD. It'd just make fights lamer

[dusky surge]

if i can outright choose to not get one-shot, kind of

if you go into a stego fight and are shocked when you're one-shot, idk what to tell you

i can just fuck off from the stego and it can't one-shot me

[harsh lark]

wha-? so a fight ending from "its over because you got lag hit" isn't anticlimatic as fuck? And giving players more options and opprotunities to play around is "lamer"?

[dusky surge]

and giving stegos less reward for landing hits is better how?

[harsh lark]

Stop using this argument, its a video game and we already established that utahs is supposed to threaten stego in packs instead of never even considering the possibility because of lag

[dusky surge]

never said that, i said you can CHOOSE to fight the stego if you accept the risk of death

[harsh lark]

oh man because making a utah 1% hp, immediately forced to go heal bleed and literally go sit in a bush crippled isn't rewarding enough?

no because we HAVE to have a player die, even if it wasnt their fault, lose hours of investment and decide to stop playing the game for the day.

Because thats how we make enjoyable and proactive game design I guess

[dusky surge]

yea, because that adult utah is totally going to give up on the stego which they've already worked to bleed out a significant portion. It totally isn't going to use the very same tracking system you brought up earlier to pick itself back up after healing off the bleed and health and continue doing the same shit.

"damn, i'm on 1HP, better leave that stego alone forever now"

[keen plover]

There's going to be a lot of 1 shotting abilities in the future. Heck there's multiple right now. Pin, lunge and stego swipe (to things less than 1200kg)

[dusky surge]

"he won fair and square and i will respect that and allow him to escape in his weakened state"

[harsh lark]

I mean yeah? Because stegos dont take permament damage and in the time you take to heal that stego will just heal whatever chip damage you did. You can have a pack continue the fight for you but you're not gonna be able to help.

[dusky surge]

"i absolutely won't use the tracking system to find him all over again and continue to attack"

you don't understand how much bleed does, right?

bleed reduces the rate at which you heal and regain stam

utah also does a FUCKTON of it

[keen plover]

Also at around 50% bloodpool, a lot of stegos barely have any stam to swing

[dusky surge]

that too

[harsh lark]

and in all this time the stego will go "I will never find herdmates, or a better position to end any chances the utah had at killing me"

[keen plover]

Once it's below half, good luck. You're as good as dead

[dusky surge]

boy, i cant wait to not stop thinking about what my utah attackers are doing rather than just hitting them until they die and go away

i really want my one-shot move to not one-shot

[keen plover]

Stegos can barely protect each other

[dusky surge]

god damn, imagine picking up stego, this massive powerhouse dinosaur, you hit a UTAHRAPTOR with a full tail swing and it WALKS AWAY

[harsh lark]

oh god I have to continue thinking about an engagement after I landed a hit?!??! good heavens thats unbelievable that I didn't end the whole engagement on the first lag hit

[harsh lark]

completely hypocritical btw, you forget how much bleed a stego does to utah.

[dusky surge]

because stegos are constantly planning their next lagspike to catch a utah off-guard

[keen plover]

A utah can afford to sit, also if you reduce the damage, you'd obviously let them be able to heal the bleed

[dusky surge]

boy, sure love nerfing and buffing animals based on factors entirely out of each player's control

that's fun and not at all really shitty

[harsh lark]

damn, that logic is so backwards its not even funny anymore. So we should just let bad experiences fester and accept deaths out of a players control because "shit happens"?

at that point you're just encouraging the sunken cost fallacy the game already has where stego is a top pick because it takes an army and a half to kill you despite only taking 3 utahs worth of growth

[dusky surge]

cant wait till teno does 500 damage with the kick because sometimes it doesn't connect

[harsh lark]

you got anymore strawmans for me or do you wanna keep talking about stego and utah?

[dusky surge]

but that can be caused by lag

not fair to the teno to miss an attack that could mean life or death

we should account for that

sometimes pachy's headbutt doesn't register me hitting legs when i hit someone, i think hitboxes are broken, so they should just fracture every body part when a pachy hits you

[keen plover]

What you're arguing is even worse. A small, pretty much 1 hour grow dino being able to take a hit from one that is 5 hours minimum.

[dusky surge]

sometimes deino lunge doesn't connect due to some janky attack hitbox, so when it DOES connect, we should just instant-kill whoever we hit.

[harsh lark]

going back to the beginning of this argument, I'm only arguing for that because said small dino is SUPPOSED to engage said 5 hr dino, but realistically cant because of its inconsistency in surviving against it

[dusky surge]

fix none of these bugs, just add balance changes to account

see how the game turns out when it's a buggy mess, but it KNOWS it's a buggy mess, so every animal is both completely broken in terms of stats AND bugs

[keen plover]

Ok, but that idea alone has given me a lot of meta ideas. A good utah back would essentially always be able to kill a stego without any losses

Utah needs bug fixes, that's it.

[harsh lark]

how is a utah surviving a stego hit "a buggy mess" now you're just arguing for an imaginary slippery slope where giving utah a single leniency so it can fulfill its intended role will somehow spread to every other dino in the game.

[dusky surge]

why not

fix the utah shit

just

make the utah stego interaction NOT broken

rather than add a mechanic that specifically exists because it CAN be broken, not because it WILL be

[harsh lark]

alright then tell me how to fix it. Explain to me how magically fixing the lag issues inherent to an open world, 100 player slot online game is more feasible than adding a simple safety net for a specific matchup

why are you arguing for something that just objectively makes the game less fun? @dusky surge

[dusky surge]

im not?

i personally think being able to survive that shit defeats the point and makes the game less fun for stegos (and for me as utah)

i like the risk of knowing i will fucking die if i fuck up

there is no magic way to solve game lag. but you can at least fix the utah pounce shit

[harsh lark]

Thats a complete lie and you know it. Even if you are some special snowflake who likes having a time investment deleted off of game bugs instead of your own misplays, the rest of the playerbase would undeniably disagree with that.

[dusky surge]

wow god damn its almost like i mentioned earlier i disliked it being caused by bugs but that doesnt taint my view of when it works as intended

which is why i'd rather the bugs fixed than the utah given some arbitrary shit that takes away the whole risk of the fight

[keen plover]

Question: Should deino lunge not be able to one shot carnos?

[harsh lark]

its not a "tainted" view though? Trying to go for the perfect paved path every single time isn't always the optimal way to develop a game and it doesn't hurt to take the simple solution occasionally, at the very least temporarily until that perfect paved path is finished being built.

[dusky surge]

i just dont think that basing balance on the CHANCE of something happening is ever the right thing to do

it's not 100% that a utah gets hit by a laggy hit, sometimes its just misplays

[harsh lark]

but thats literally how balancing works, thats why certain weapons in TF2 have "No random crits" because chance based occurences are things you need to account for in ensuring player enjoyment.

[harsh lark]

obviously, but the fact that misplays are sometimes the cause doesnt justify the fact that laggy hits can still happen and potentially ruin an entire multi-hour play session because of it.

[dusky surge]

but random crits aren't caused by lag, they're intended, so this is a weird argument to even make

[harsh lark]

random crits are chance based in the same way lag is, the only difference is one was intentionally implemented.

[dusky surge]

and again, this implies that ALL one-shot attacks should have a level of immunity for ALL animals

if we're using a random crit comparison

because lag can be a factor

and thus it creates a level of unfairness

[harsh lark]

i never said that, this argument is about the specific utah vs stego matchup and it remains at that. why do you insist on including other dinosaurs and derailing?

[dusky surge]

because it makes no sense for it to be just for utah

[harsh lark]

except it does

because of the specific role utah is expected to fill compared to other small dinos

[dusky surge]

i mean, i dont even know why i argue this, it's 100% not being added

[keen plover]

[harsh lark]

gg!

[dusky surge]

because the devs will see the same issues everyone else has seen with the concept

[harsh lark]

you're really gonna trust the devs with game design decisions? they are the ones who brought us wonders like current carno afterall.

[dusky surge]

current carno isn't really as bad as everyone says. It's bad, don't get me wrong, but I honestly think with a nerf to its bleed and tracking, it's fine as it is

also buff pachy ffs

(also the carno changes were a direct response to what the community was asking for so i feel that's kind of a moot argument)

[harsh lark]

if the carno changes were a result of what the community wanted that only proves the unreliability of the community in making balance decisions

I mean at the end of the day I just think a lot of people are holding Isles title as "hardcore survival" to an unreasonable standard that doesn't actually make the game more fun.

like, the devs added the entire diet system and then got scared of the possibility of players being rewarded for their efforts, so they just made it a system entired based on "your reward is not being punished!"

[keen plover]

Yeah diets ruined the enjoyment of the game for me, at least as a carni

I like it where if I as a playable can hunt something with my tools, I should gain benefits from it

[harsh lark]

it sucks too because I remember pre-diets when update 4 was heralded as the coming of christ. "we'll finally have objectives and rewarding gameplay!" then we got this

[keen plover]

I mean, feasibly- a utah pack can hunt every ceratopsian and hadrosaur

Yet if the current diets stayed, I doubt they would fit all of those on its diets

[harsh lark]

in the current state? not really when those dinos can neuter pounces effectiveness with water/foliage/terrain

[keen plover]

Yeah utah is easily countered, but that's just how it is. I doubt a utah would want to hold onto something that goes into water

Foliage though? bad design

[rotund edge]

Just wanna say that irl, carnivores eat whatever they can catch. They have preferred prey because thats what they specialise in hunting, they find it easier. But they don't become weaker if they don't eat that particular animal like we do in evrima

Carnis should have preferred prey, dinos that are the best to hunt for that specific carni, but you shouldn't be punished if you don't/can't find them

[keen plover]

It doesn't help in game where players would already kill everything they can

As a carno, if you see a small stego, why wouldn't you be able to get diets?

[rotund edge]

Exactly

The only thing it does rn for carnis is to find ai instead of players sometimes

I like that herbies have to travel around now, like carnis do to find food. But it's such a chore that a lot of people don't bother, especially when adult

[keen plover]

Yeah, I hope gore changes it to where you need specific body parts or something idk

and leave the rest to what you can actually hunt

Although some creatures could be less than ideal food

[rotund edge]

That would be interesting, I'd imagine it'd leave a lot of corpses lying around though, hunting just for a leg, eat it, and leave it to go somewhere else

[keen plover]

I don't like how it is in the current game tbf, what happens if utahs are eating a stego body. Do carnos go, "well not something I need".. Although yeah they could go for the utahs

Idk, doesn't really bring that competition in, except for things that are on your diets

Maybe something like a rex that has armoured creatures on its diets, and generally large things. Does it pass up on the teno body

[rotund edge]

It shouldn't do, doesn't make sense. Carnivores are almost always opportunists, see a meal, eat while you can. I mean, you can still do that now, but unless you're starving, people will most likely pass up on those meals for diet ai to keep diet up. Well, more so when growing, people generally don't bother with diets when grown

[keen plover]

Yeah, its kind of boring. I don't want to manage my hunger like how it is in game. "33% of my stomach for 1 of 3 diets. Now onto the next"

I have hopes that it will be something similar to that. Even if it isn't exactly what I want, as long as it's something better than what we have now

[rotund edge]

Yeh it can be improved I think. But I am glad it stops people afk growing as much. Once you full up on one nutrient, instead of hiding in a bush till you're hungry, you gotta look around for the next meal. I like that aspect of it

[keen plover]

Yeah it's great

For herbis at least.

Well at least in terms of movement, could be hard for juvies though

[rotund edge]

I think juvies shouldn't worry too much about diets until like...30%?
It's like, as soon as you're born you're racing to a diet. Like a running simulator. Then you can finally relax once each nutrient is full. Not super fun though

[keen plover]

Rather than not worrying, I think diets should shift for them

[rotund edge]

By the time you have all 3 you're gonna be around half grown anyway

[keen plover]

Yeah, growing something like a pachy took me noticeable longer than a utah

Tenos take longer than carnos from my experience as well

Well, I haven't timed it so take what I'm saying as my own experience

[rotund edge]

Pachy is way longer than utah, but it's stronger in terms of health and damage so it makes sense. Teno being longer than carno is just.. no

[somber sphinx]

@azure crescent i think it would be better if deino had players, Ai and basking as its nuterience. (by players i mean every playeble dinos deino could eat, same goes for AI).

[azure crescent]

basking would be neat

[somber sphinx]

i could see magalainia have basking too, they bouth would be basking when its sunny but they cant when its night or raining and sutch

[azure crescent]

yeah everything that's cold blooded

[somber sphinx]

exacty

[somber sphinx]

@delicate pecan teno isn`weak, the problem is that there are too many carnos, but the only "buff" teno should get is a stam buff for tail slam

[delicate pecan]

I agree

Stam buff can be good

Or it should count less

[wet sleet]

Carno and Stego need to be nerfed from the diet side, so they form smaller groups that have to look for food more.

[bright cargo]

Stego is not OP, in fact it's pretty balanced for the most part. The issue is none of the current roster is suited for nor supposed to hunt/kill adult stegos. It shouldn't have been added this early, but the dino itself is in a good state. They need to focus on getting the current roster in a decent enough spot so they can add more dinos, some that can and are suited to deal with stego. If they keep nerfing, buffing, nerfing with every patch, we won't get the full roster until 2075

[wet sleet]

Stego is okay stat-wise. It's not okay logistics-wise, especially as an adult.

Stego players have too much time at their hand and too little reason to walk around in search for food. So they form big herds and throw their weight around.

[half girder]

https://discordapp.com/channels/401464048610312193/778350260027129865/963137988756373637 i think more stam regen would be better, cuz more stam would just make it pointless to buck as a pachy

[wet sleet]

Wouldn't it be possible to increase the stamina but also the stamina loss when your victim is bucking?

This way pounce stays the same but Utah can run for longer.

[molten turret]

it would just be easyer for it to lose less stamina when running

[wet sleet]

Yes.

[inner forge]

After a lot of hour playing as Utah, I feel the Utah gets easily killed by Tenonto and Carno (even when ambushing and attacking first). An health increase would be a good way to buff the utah. If that's not an option for the dev, maybe considering an increase in health regen and bleed resistance or bleed damage. Why? Because the utah is not a fast killer. The utah need to be able to stand during long duration fight and try to bleed out his opponent.

[vapid hinge]

Utah is best in numbers against larger prey

Get the numbers and no need for a health buff. The buff would just mean that, that same number of Utah can kill OTHER more intensive dinos easier when they shouldnt really be able to. If that makes sense?

[covert cave]

All Utah needs is a debug and a stam increase, maybe a bite damage buff

[vapid hinge]

Ya

[hexed sorrel]

@desert wave actually, utah and dryo have the exact same speed, 46.8. and dryo can run for about 120 seconds while utah about 105-110 seconds

[desert wave]

That wasn’t the case 2 days ago though, the Utah was faster than me although not by much and I had to outmaneuver it to escape and when I play either Utah or dryo I always feel like dryos need to rest quicker after sprinting but that may just be my imagination

[hexed sorrel]

well there is an exploit going around of faster utahs 😕

[desert wave]

Mhh I’ll check the stats tomorrow but thanks for letting me know

[keen plover]

May be the case as in legacy where some creatures have the same exact speed, yet 1 moves marginally quicker. Or that the utah was using exploits

Also could have been down to you turning? idk

[desert wave]

I turned because he was faster but yea could have been exploits but why would you use ones that make you only faster by like 1-2km/h

[keen plover]

Then it's less obvious but yeah you should be outrunning utahs

[noble wave]

Teno needs a stamp buff, if it has any sort of bleed the stam regain is so slow it just can't fight, so when there are multiple people that's attacking it, its got no chance

[hollow canyon]

I think it mainly needs a lower stam cost on the slam and yea that's especially needed for fighting multiple opponents where you want to be slamming them. I honestly think that with slam dealing lower damage now it could have the same stamina cost as the kick - you either go for the kick that deals more damage and dishes out a lot of bleed or the tailslam that has more range and can hit multiple people at once.

Teno would be just about perfectly balanced then

at least imo

[old hull]

it almost feels like they wanted to turn the slam into more of a setup move and the kick as the real heavy hitter , which can work but yeah that stam drain on the slam is way WAY too high

[dusky surge]

i feel slam is much cooler AS a setup move, but it is far too costly

[hollow canyon]

I also think so and agreed about it being too costly if it's toned down in terms of stam cost Teno should be right where it is meant to be imo

I'm just not sure what exactly its stam cost should be

I'd say that perhaps it should be a smidgen higher than that of the kick, the damage difference between the two isn't as large as most people think meanwhile slam is imo much easier to land

and you can typically land more of them if you land one

unless we can get the kick hitbox increased(which would be the best option imo) and then have the two at the same stamina cost

[sonic flame]

Do keep in mind that increasing a hitbox is a slippery slope

I agree it isn't the most reliable currently, but it is a very accurate hitbox that matches the animation exactly and not any more, at least in terms of how far to the tail it hits

[fresh laurel]

If only they did this with carno...

[old hull]

both pachy and teno also seem to have just terrible stamina in general too , it feels like you cant ever sprint because everything you do costs stam and the regen is painfully slow for both , meanwhile their carnivore counterparts both can do simular amounts of damage with their attacks for free , that and they are faster so backing off to regain stam is always an option

this basically makes playing either of them solo a deathwish since it wont matter how good you are at teno or pachy your just gonna be out of stamina and die regardless

[dusky surge]

idk, its less bad on teno honestly

because INSANE trotspeed

pachy, however, does not have very good trot speed

in fact, it has very bad trot speed

[old hull]

indeed

its tolerable on teno because you dont really ever need to sprint during a fight , your better off holding your ground

pachy however has to sprint cuz standing still is death , but its terrible stam makes it difficult

it makes the nerfs that some of the players demanded for it straight up dumb , pachy already had a massive weakness , that awful stam , why the hell did we need to nerf it more

even in update 4 pachy was only really good in large numbers , 1-2 pachys are easy prey for a single carno or even a duo of utahs if they actually play properly

[dusky surge]

it actually has the same running stam as a utah

[desert wave]

Utah and pachy could both benefit from a stam buff when it comes to running, would be a nice QoL change for them

[hollow canyon]

I actually agree with this, the hitbox seems to match the animation, it's just the animation that makes it have a rather poor range. That's what I was referring to. I most certainly wouldn't want Tenonto to hit people by kicking the air.

if it could be slightly extended I think it really wouldn't hurt, currently it reaches just about the base of the tail area.

@hexed sorrel While I think that Teno already has the easiest diet of all the herbivores, I would definitely be in favour of doing what you propose(although I'd like all the herbivores to have to run less for their perfect diets).

[delicate pecan]

Then why deinos dying to one stego? It can kill 3 lmao

[dusky surge]

because if deinos didnt die to one stego, it'd be really unbalanced

[bright cargo]

Because most deino players are bad and will just go up biting a stego's tail, getting headshot while doing so. You're attacking the part of the body that takes the least amount of damage with the part of the body that takes the most

[dusky surge]

if we had deinos shitstomping stegos, not only would that mean stego is a pretty weak-ass animal, but it would make deinos far more powerful than stego can even hope to be

an 8 ton animal with the ability to dive in water and massive bleed resist being able to kill the one animal in the game stopping them from being discount rexes with nothing to stop them

[bright cargo]

That's what deino players want to be

[dusky surge]

stego is literally a deino moderator

it ensures that deino remains in its lane

[bright cargo]

I do agree that stego shouldn't be able to deal full damage when its tail is under water but aside from that it is spot on

[dusky surge]

you cant have an apex without at least SOME contest, and deino is entirely capable of avoiding, tanking and escaping stegos. If stego can be easily dispatched by deinos, deinos will be entirely uncontested and unbeatable

in an ideal world, utah would be not broken and thus able to kill stegos in packs

[bright cargo]

^ this. You don't brawl stego, you maneuver and bleed it out

[dusky surge]

thus utah is able to deal with the stego population, which deals with the deino population, which deals with most of the population (besides stego)

and we have a circle of life and a food chain

where everyone has threats

carno can't really be our choice for giant feller

stego's position is controversial, but I would not nerf it

in the current update, stego is really an apex-level challenge to grow

it takes real survival luck and skill to grow a stego

[hollow canyon]

That only happens if Deinos don't have hands.

I've managed to solo a Stego as a Deino once, this is tough, relies on luck and I wouldn't try to attempt it in normal circumstances.

2v1 Deinos can kill a Stego relatively reliably unless Stego runs away.

[dusky surge]

stegos usually won't run because they feel cocky

and then they die lmao

[fresh laurel]

Wouldnt they need to fix stego weird hitboxes first against utah?

[dusky surge]

?

[fresh laurel]

Like the whole getting hit on the tail tip still is full dmg

Could be desync though

[dusky surge]

that's desync

there's no special interaction or bug that causes that

[hasty coyote]

@hexed sorrel pachy has cocos at NE, but they barely stay there for long to get them anyway.

[hexed sorrel]

but they also have at south

[hasty coyote]

yes, but there still is diet at NE. However, i do agree that there is basically notheing that goes there except the occasional pachy getting a coco.

[analog mirage]

Stego can hit infront of itself

[white cove]

well yeah it's got a bite attack

[fresh laurel]

Wonder what would happen if they made tail swipe not reach stego head...

you know force Stego to have to move its head more

[thin mantle]

Nothing would actually cause stego to do this, Carno is a non factor and utahs don’t rely on bite. Stego doesn’t have a predator that it needs to dodge against, which makes sense since it’s massive. Reserve the “head dodging” for Alberto Acro and the apexes

[fresh laurel]

Even then it would still make Stego hunts more easier in a way...

[thin mantle]

In no way would it affect how their hunts go tbh, headshots are a complete non factor against stegos only predator

They’re only relevant against deino, and stegos already move their heads to deny headshot damage from them anyway

Plus the windup for the attack that reaches near its head is so massive that getting hit by it is a borderline skill issue

[fresh laurel]

you would be surprised on how much 55n multiplied by 2 can do...

[thin mantle]

110, against an animal with 6k hp, that means that you still need to land around 60 hits

The stego will out heal that making that number even higher

By comparison to 7ish full pounces

You already have the best tool in the game for combating stegos, use that instead

[fresh laurel]

Head hits are really more of a helper in a fight, pounce is still the main thing

also reason making swipe not reach head would kinda make dismount a bit more easier to get away with

[thin mantle]

Why would we want that…

[fresh laurel]

To help lower Stegos populations

[thin mantle]

Poor way to do it tbh, implement biome specific grazing and more bleed penalties for imperfect diets instead

[fresh laurel]

Bleed penalties?

[thin mantle]

Stego should be the second hardest target for utahs to actually fight in the whole roster… barring the semi aquatics

[fresh laurel]

whats more to add onto bleed

[dusky surge]

i really like when people say that the best way to deal with stego is just make it impossible for it to deal with its predators haha

[fresh laurel]

This part makes me wonder why add Stego if they want in to be in a roster where it cant really die

[dusky surge]

stego suffers REALLY bad from bleed

its stam regen is pretty dogshit compared to other animals

[thin mantle]

What I mean is even further reduced stamina regen when your diet is poor

[dusky surge]

so combined with bleed, it basically becomes a standing wall on low stam and high bleed

[thin mantle]

It is admittedly a poor roster decision

[fresh laurel]

I thought it was already bad enough with lower diets

[dusky surge]

stego is decent soley for the fact that it deals with deino

the fact that deino exists means stego must too

[thin mantle]

Really just wish it was trike instead

[fresh laurel]

They literality could of just made Deino have less reasons bothering land camping

[dusky surge]

trike would be cool, but it'd be a GIANT compared to the rest of the roster

[thin mantle]

Not dead set in trike, more so that stego is so well equipped to deal with all our current and planned Evrima animals

[fresh laurel]

but imo trike would of been better since utah apparently can handle it better than Stego

[thin mantle]

Mhm, wouldn’t really change a whole lot, at least the utahs would have less to complain about

[dusky surge]

I think it's like, nine tons in the size chart

it'd take FOREVER to take one down, but i think utah probably would have an easier time dealing with them

just don't pounce the head and circle, you good

[fresh laurel]

Cant Utah hunt it more effectively than Stego though? I mean have pack mates bait Trike to show its back

I think trike would of been the more balanced option in a way

[thin mantle]

Much easier

[dusky surge]

hypothetically, i was never denying that it wouldn't be easier to hunt

i dont think anyone here is arguing against trike

[fresh laurel]

So how come Trike wasnt the one to be added if it actually has something to fear

[dusky surge]

because it wasnt? damned if i know lmao

[fresh laurel]

I mean it would still merc Deinos

[thin mantle]

It’s really just a matter of poor choices, that’s all

[fresh laurel]

and Deino really cant do that extra head dmg

[fresh laurel]

Is it too late to replace Stego with Trike in Evrima roster? Like maybe down the lin-

[thin mantle]

Like ideally we wouldn’t even have apexes in rn but here we are

[thin mantle]

Yeah people would be mad, pretty sure the devs don’t want that deal with that despite the potential benefits

[fresh laurel]

Ideally we wouldnt have so many Utah counters in a ecosystem with Utah but yet here we are

[fresh laurel]

whats there to be mad about lol

[thin mantle]

Utah is honestly an incredibly powerful animal that’s received poor reception and perception because of the roster it’s been placed in, everything currently in is designed to counter Utah better than most

[fresh laurel]

Pachy alt attack = Utah counter
carno do I even have to explain?
Teno funni back side guard
Stego you know....

I think if they added different dinosaurs instead of our current ones, Utah would be looked at as a very fun animal to use in hunts

Like not adding 90% utah counters

[dusky surge]

maybe if they added a single ceratopsian lmao

[thin mantle]

Well I personally wouldn’t be upset, you have to remember that most of the isle community isn’t exactly pragmatic, they want their favorite playables in game, understandably so, but it causes biases to form that can interfere with critical thinking, we’re all victims of this to an extent.

[fresh laurel]

Avaceratops

[thin mantle]

The better choice would just be to add trike instead of replacing it with stego

[dusky surge]

how big even is cera

[thin mantle]

Like 1.2 iirc

Sorry, 1.4

[dusky surge]

fuck i meant ava

[fresh laurel]

Trike seems like the more popular option which confuses me

[dusky surge]

i MAY be fucking stupid

[thin mantle]

Ava is 1k

[fresh laurel]

true ngl...

[dusky surge]

i am deranged (like the joker)

thats why im mr giga

[fresh laurel]

[dusky surge]

ive evolved

[fresh laurel]

I didnt even noticed XD

[thin mantle]

Lmao, I still miss Wavepoole tho

[dusky surge]

true

[fresh laurel]

Wavepole

[dusky surge]

however, i cant NOT capitalise on the fucking giga joker thing

it is one of my FAVOURITE things rn, I adore it so much

[thin mantle]

Yeah good meme

[dusky surge]

i literally cannot stop thinking about the fact that a real-ass animal got compared to a supervillain clown

[fresh laurel]

Why is it like the Joker may I ask?

[dusky surge]

also i checked size chart and holy shit 620kg ava gonna get melted by utah

[dusky surge]

some interview, the director said some shit where he compared the giga to the joker

i wish i could make it up

[fresh laurel]

Tbf it wont be getting pinned at least

and horns?

[dusky surge]

this shit

[fresh laurel]

lol

[dusky surge]

i mean, ava DOES have horns

but like, i still feel its getting melted by a utah

[spare badger]

Sympathetic villians in the JP francise lmao

[dusky surge]

how the fuck is joker sympathetic

[spare badger]

It isn't really

[dusky surge]

they're going to make this animal literally irredeemable

[fresh laurel]

So if Giga is Joker.... who is Batman and Robin?

[spare badger]

But how Colin described that it was mistreated or some shit so it hates humanity like bruh

Just give us JP 3 spino again

No motive is required its a dinosaur

Just say they fucked up the genetics so it's always hungry

[dusky surge]

cant wait for an entire spinoff movie called "giga" where the giga slowly begins its path into derangement

[fresh laurel]

You would think that the Humans would learn not to mistreat their giant apex carnivores from the Indom problem...

or Indoraptor problem....

[fresh laurel]

Starts off as a "friendly" dinosaur and each episode it gets more pissed at Humans...

[dusky surge]

anyway, my obsession with giga joker has very much derailed the convo

so back on point, if i were to add a ceratopsian, it'd be diablo

[fresh laurel]

We were talking about Ava vs Utah btw

[dusky surge]

ava gonna die imho

[fresh laurel]

I dunno man Ava might have a chance

Hp diff and again horns

[dusky surge]

diablo is 1500kg, pretty quick, has some good horns for combat, decent endurance, so on

it'd be a decent matchup for both carnos and utahs alike

[fresh laurel]

Diablo ass riding flashbacks

[dusky surge]

this is evrima baby

[fresh laurel]

I know :D

Just glad that now I wont get merced by Diablo without landing one hit

I can already see the revenge of mid tiers

[dusky surge]

i mean, carno and utah would still be risks (although i feel diablo may be slightly more equipped against carno, with a powerful front-facing attack and likely locational damage resist to the head)

[spare badger]

Carno has no business fighting a ceratopsian
It's not going to work for it

[dusky surge]

eh

i mean, it can still knock down a diablo

[spare badger]

I guess it could charge it?

[dusky surge]

but i'd imagine it'd get gored

in lots of situations

[spare badger]

Yea
It can't get at its flanks well

Diablo is more Utah prey

Flaking and getting pounces

But if it pounces its face Utah should get impaled

[dusky surge]

that was already a coded thing with trike i think

trike could impale utahs who pounced the head

without doing anything

[spare badger]

Ye

Although I doubt it would one shot utah

[dusky surge]

a trike, or a diablo?

[spare badger]

Dibble

Trike 100% one shot

[dusky surge]

diablo would still gore one imho

[spare badger]

How big are it's horns?

[sonic flame]

about as long as Utah's entire head

[spare badger]

Hmm
Might one shot then
Dunno

[dusky surge]

like, i'd put diablo damage at say, 300 with a horn swing. One-shot to head of utah

[spare badger]

Sounds about right

[dusky surge]

since you can just NOT stand in front of the diablo, dying to it would kinda be your own fault

Plus, it would really scare the shit out of carnos to take 1/6th of their health every time they get hit by this bastard

[spare badger]

Ye

[dusky surge]

i dont think it should one-tap a utah to the body, but i have no qualms with headshots

[spare badger]

I agree

[dusky surge]

and if it DOES hit a utah, it should scare the hell out of it

deal bleed and hefty damage

[spare badger]

Dibble is a potato with spikes on its face
I love it

What will Dibble do against Allo, now that it's been downsized?

[dusky surge]

it can probably easily out endure it

[mental roost]

No bonus damage for stabbing lungs, sad moment(I kid)

Trying to facetank a Ceratopsid should in general, not be a good idea(unless you have a drastic size advantage over it... and maybe Protoceratops because while it has a face shield(frill) it only has big beak to chomp on things.(which it probably would hurt like hell if it bit onto your arm or leg)

[dusky surge]

i see allo as an endurance predator against apexes and an ambush against smaller animals. Fast sprint, fast trot, awful sprint stam. If it can't catch a small in the initial ambush, that small can easily get away

im actually dumb

idk why ikeep forgetting what animal is named what

[mental roost]

Bah, Giga , Allo, tomato, potato

[dusky surge]

mr giga has corrupted my mind

much like the Joker

[mental roost]

We live in an Ecosystem

[dusky surge]

i love that

[hollow canyon]

Yea but to be perfectly honest Nova uses a specimen that might or might not be a ceratopsid there. Iirc that's "Nedoceratops" which might be "Triceratops" proper but it may also be a completely different genus(although iirc it's definitely different species than Triceratops horridus).

I'm not super knowledgeable in terms of Trikes but I know that their larger remains are very fragmentary. The largest reliable Triceratops is slightly shy off 8t iirc.

And even that one is quite fragmentary from what I vaguely recall based on Scott Hartman's work.

[wise sparrow]

8 ton trike would get shredded knowing how much dondi fawns over rex

[hollow canyon]

I don't think so tbh

with a lower multiplier on the head it would very likely clap a Rex with ease

although it depends on how hitboxes would work for it

the lack of proper collision in this game has a really awful impact on a lot of match ups

[wise sparrow]

I know for a fact we are gonna get "super cool and badass armor piecing rex that ignores DR and does a billion damage"

I just dont trust dondi with JP's poster boy

[hollow canyon]

it's entirely possible that Rex could perhaps just force its face past Trike's head and start landing hits on Trike's unarmoured body

I don't think Dondi has any kind of favouritism towards Rex

he seems to like Spino more I think

That's just my impression though

[wise sparrow]

"Spino"

JP at least looked like spino

dondi like godzilla more imo

[hollow canyon]

I think JP Spino looked awful

[wise sparrow]

i mean

its JP

[hollow canyon]

I don't like it and I don't like legacy Spino either

[wise sparrow]

almost all its designs are shitty

[hollow canyon]

I don't feel thay way about most of their designs, a lot of them are outdated but Spinosaurus specifically always looked really ugly and unnatural to me

even when it was the most common representation of the animal

I just don't like it, it looks like some Baryonyx with a sail glued on top of it, it's just really woeful in terms of aesthetics

[wise sparrow]

I loathe JW simply because they took a really cool premise and turned it into basic blockbuster monster movie where our protagonist rex goes up against big rex

[hollow canyon]

Regarding the game though - with how Spino is allegedly supposed to be a very tanky animal

I really don't think this would fit the irl Spino

that animal is a twig

[wise sparrow]

Irl spino is an absolute pushover who just looks big at first glance

[hollow canyon]

It would break in half if it was to come into contact with a theropod like T.rex or one of the large derived carcharodntosaurids

So I don't mind it getting the changes

[wise sparrow]

its a genuinely interesting animal tho and im sad to see it get turned into generic carnivore #3312

[hollow canyon]

Although I think that the concept art of Spino was vastly better looking than the model we got

[wise sparrow]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/401481371249541120/902668027844251648/Screenshot_20211026-120229_Photos.jpg

This one?

[hollow canyon]

Yea that thing

[wise sparrow]

It looked so cool but ig their budget ran low so thay just pulled rex's face forward and called it a day

our spino is literally just armored skinny rex

[hollow canyon]

Idk what happened, I don't want to speculate, I just know it looks worse than on the concept

I think that it still looks alright though, I have far bigger issues with some other animals

[wise sparrow]

(Utah)

[hollow canyon]

Oh I couldn't care less about Utah, it's not even a real Utahraptor

I'm talking about the likes of Acro

which just looks like some pokemon

[wise sparrow]

acro is... weird

[hollow canyon]

*digimon actually

it's not weird, it's an abomination

[wise sparrow]

what they did to giga tho...

like
why?

[hollow canyon]

Giga just looks worse than old Giga, much more uninspired and dull, it does look like Giganotosaurus though so I'm not gonna complain too much

it's slightly cartoonish

but not quite as much as Acro

which looks like some pokemon with proportions that wouldn't even allow it to stay alive

[wise sparrow]

Idk why the felt the need to change literally every design in evrima

some designs were just spot on

[hollow canyon]

Oh they haven't changed every design, only some of them like Giga

[wise sparrow]

Utah just feels... bland.
Like its not "bad" considering dondi wanted his own JP raptor oc
its just super dull and there is nothing really special about it

Its literally just a JP raptor

nothing more

[hollow canyon]

I think that's what it's meant to be, I don't care for the animal, it's always been rather dull to me and I don't have that much nostalgia towards the Jurassic Park series so it doesn't appeal to me that much

[dusky surge]

i dont reckon that'll be the case honestly

[dusky surge]

thank you

[spare badger]

Your welcome

[dusky surge]

i honestly dont think carni bias is that strong simple because stego exists as a constant "fuck you" to all the deino players who wanna live out their epic apex fantasies before receiving giant spikes administered directly to the skull

and despite the deinos constantly complaining, stego remains as it is (which it honestly should imho)

[white cove]

@neat forge I think this could be addressed by changing how most things interact with steep terrain

Stego is definitely the biggest offender because it looks the most out of place

but carnos scaling cliffs isn't exactly fair either

same with crocs but for the most part they stay in their lane nowadays

thanks to stegos but w/e, nerf it to the stone age and embrace aquarex '

[dusky surge]

lmao this perfectly explains the "nerf stego" mindset. People just want aquarex

people give stego too much shit, considering it acts as a guardian that protects carnivores from having their food stolen by an 8 ton gator with no fear whatsoever. Stego is the Isle's most unsung hero

without stego, you'd have something worse than bodyguarding, body theft.

by a fucking annoying, unkillable 8 ton giant

[harsh lark]

if you want rex you dont play deino, you just play stego man.

i could explain the "Dont nerf stego" mindset as people just want to keep their tailRex

[dusky surge]

i dont play stego, too much effort to obtain and not my style of gameplay

but i respect the animal nonetheless

also stego scarcely counts as some kind of "rex". Its attacks are horrible on the offensive and basically work purely defensively or against an unprepared player and it lacks any ability to consistently kill anything offensively

[harsh lark]

you don't need to overcomplicate it

[hollow maple]

man people really are just complaining about players using the environment for defense

[harsh lark]

big tanky invincible dino who oneshots anything that gets near it and can do whatever it wants is all rex players want in a dino, and stego checks all these points off

[mental roost]

Update 3 pain. Damn gators taking my hard earned money

[dusky surge]

U3 was the height of this, yea

Deinos literally could not be avoided, they were massive pests

back when stego was really bad for its size and growthtime and deino was a lot more popular

[mental roost]

Deino able to bite a Stego's head by putting its head through the stego's whole body.
Glad that's gone at least(though it seems to have had indirect consequences on a few other playables??)

[dusky surge]

stego isn't really invincible, just people can't figure out how to fight it as deino and raptor is fucked with glitches that kill it unfairly

[mental roost]

Kill them while young if you can.

[dusky surge]

true, stego has a pretty bad juvi and growing stages

deino is far superior when it comes to ease of surviving to adult

[mental roost]

It's a walking hamburger as a juvenile if you have more than 5 brain cells active at any given time--someone's carno apparently died to a juvi Stego...no idea how.

[dusky surge]

lmaooo

[harsh lark]

"difficulty of growing" will never fully regulate a dino pop though. No matter how artificially long you make it people will just optimize to cheese it as easily as possible. Like going on only during low pop hours or having megapack/mixpack help

[dusky surge]

i mean... half of the reason carno is so popular and everywhere is simplicity and ease of growth

not only is carno's juvi REALLY good, but its diet is extremely basic and easy and its standard playstyle has a low skill-ceiling to play

[harsh lark]

carno hits a sweetspot, stego just happens to be so good that its perfect for the sunken cost fallacy where as long as you reach adult you will get your time back

back during oasis update I grew only one stego but got like weeks of gameplay off it

[dusky surge]

teno, in comparison, has a higher skill-ceiling and floor, harder growth and a less favourable juvi stage. In combination, this makes some people believe teno is weaker than carno (which isn't true, a teno can easily dispatch a carno in a 1v1), but carno is so much easier that it just feels stronger

carno can not only be produced en-masse extremely effectively due to how easy they are to grow, but their ease of play and survival means that they are easy for any player to play and fight with

[white cove]

but like...stego well and truly cannot hunt you

not only is it slow as nuts, but its offensive weapon is behind it

[mental roost]

Carnotaurus population right now:

[dusky surge]

and while carno is overtuned in some places, i can't say in good conscious that the accel or turn radius are its main issues. Frankly, I find the tracking ability and bleed it does to be two of its more notable issues. It's a great ambush/speed predator, that also has the tools to pursue for long distances

[white cove]

It can't even walk backwards

it needs to get in front of you, then stab you

the only way you ever die to a stego is if you decide you want to tussle with a stego 🤷‍♂️

that or it cannibalizes you as a stego but you can nerf it to be weaker than hypsi and that'll still happen because it is 2/2 parties involved

[dusky surge]

a carno SHOULD be quick on the attack, a high accel and speed perfectly compliment it, however, the fact that it can bleed and track so effectively is a core issue. It means that you can't even find safety within forests or away from their hunting grounds, which is where the issue arises

[harsh lark]

I really dont get why people constantly use this to sell stegos as patron saints. Yeah a stego isn't gonna hunt you down, but they are gonna hinder literally every other aspect of gameplay they can. If you find food they'll sit on it, if you find a fun fight they'll butt in. It's not like Rex is gonna accomplish much more than what Stegos do now if we go off of legacy.

[white cove]

it'll take the food and also it will run out of the jungle and annihilate you

[dusky surge]

stego cant track, which is a very notable difference

[white cove]

I do understand that bodyguarding will become a much larger issue if/when gore adds spoilage

as right now stegos will get thirsty long before meat despawns

or hungry, or bored

[harsh lark]

okay explain what "annihilate" means? They're gonna bring back the scrapped ambush mechanic so rex can run at mach 10 for 2 seconds to catch me? The majority of players already hang out in open areas near water sources as is.

[white cove]

it'll kill you from the front. Stego needs to cross your entire FoV to hurt you or pivot in place behind you then stab backwards

also it will hunt you down

I mean, theoretical of course because it's not in the game so i can't accurately speak to its strengths

[harsh lark]

no it doesn't, stegos tail whip can reach infront of it and it turns fast enough to use it offensively anyways.

[white cove]

fuck me if I'm wrong but doesn't stego have to stand still to use its whip

[harsh lark]

theoretical is fine, we have enough knowledge to infer how big dinos will probably play

[dusky surge]

stego's forward facing tail-swing is one of its slowest attacks

[white cove]

it's about as defensive an ability you can get

tail mounted weapon that the user cannot move and use at the same time

like, other than preemptive spit warfare I don't think you can get more defensive

Maybe if ceratopsians get some kind of brace mechanic but I imagine they'll also have a charge so I think - bar anky - stego is the least offensive herbivore you can have

It also has zero tools to evade the tracking and maneuverability of the 2 current carnivores, one of which has 0 natural predators except itself. So I don't think nerfing it so that it can't win the fights that others pick with it, stego doesn't get to choose advantageous engagements is a good idea

Yes, corpse guarding. But that's not the case that animals should be balanced for as it will ultimately gimp them in their regular play regardless

Add more stuff to do in the game and I'm sure the problem will lessen, though ultimately never go away

[harsh lark]

Stego does get to choose engagements though. It can plop itself wherever it wants and butt into any fight it wants. Its not just limited to corpses, and stegos will literally do anything they can to get something to fight them.

When you add more stuff to the game it'll probably just worsen the issue too

cant wait to see stego players sit on other dinos nests next update

[white cove]

what fight can it butt into that things can't just walk away from

Except coming to the defense of another herbivore/stego in which case

see message about: most defensive dinosaur being good at defending

[harsh lark]

Carnivores hunting other herbivores that they need for diet, AI, shallow water spots safe from deino, and nests next update.

[dusky surge]

lmao nests, imagine

[white cove]

I mean, without its presence then nests for pachy, teno, hypsi, dryo would just be a death sentence so

I'm good with that

[harsh lark]

mixpacking as intended design? I thought every dino was meant to be viable on its own.

[dusky surge]

i dont think anyone said that

[white cove]

I think it's called "herding" when herbivores do it

[harsh lark]

thats just obnoxious and i'd rather stegos play as actual defensive animals concerned with themselves rather than leaping to protect anything they see

oh man if only it was limited to only herbs too

and we didnt also have stegos defending uwutahs sitting on rocks

[dusky surge]

also id imagine there'd be different ways these animals nest so that they don't have to nest in a spot where they're completely exposed and defenceless

[white cove]

Nerfing them isn't going to make them actual defensive animals concerned with themselves, it'll make them fodder

they are slow and big

make them slow big and weak and well

I guess they've got some cool skins going for them

[dusky surge]

like apparently hypsis will nest up high in trees, pteras will probably be allowed to nest on large cliffs and spires, so on

[white cove]

I really want to see some actual nesting info yeah

This nesting argument could be moot as stego could just not be able to defend the nests of other dinos due to geography

[harsh lark]

There's a grey area you can work with there y'know, nerfing it isnt gonna instantly make it fodder. But generally if you ask me, if your supposedly defensive animal is so powerful defensively it can use itself offensive by defending areas of interest then you went too far on how good you made it lol.

you're essentially undermining the original point of the dinos intended playstyle

[white cove]

can use itself offensive by defending areas of interest

[harsh lark]

https://tenor.com/view/ben-yes-yes-fthememer-phone-call-yes-call-yes-gif-24938145

[white cove]

What would your ideal gameplay loop for stego be then, if it is unable to be "offensively defensive" by being in areas of interest

It can't hide, so it has to be strong enough to muck things that see it in the plains

or it is going to be relegated to the slowest forest dweller

Also may just be a roster issue at present; by design it needs to be able to fight anything that can catch it. The 2 carnivores just happen to be things that can catch it

though it seems like you want control of the "areas of interest" to be in the hands of hyper speed carnivores rather than lumbering herbivores which is......not a good idea for obvious reasons

[harsh lark]

Stego should be a constant fight against PVE elements, with the punishment for failing that being becoming a prime PVP target. Your top priority is keeping your diets good and staying strong, avoiding unnecessary fights so you can last when an actual threat comes your way.

[white cove]

well that sounds miserable lmao

[harsh lark]

As it stands right now Stego can afford to go to a hotspot, pick a fight with a pack of deinos, lose half its hp, walk away, get attacked by a pack of utahs/carnos, sit in mud until they get bored and then go heal itself to full hp and do it all over again

[white cove]

"fight plants, keep a good diet, then when something chooses an engagement with you they should win (remember, stego can't choose any engagement in your balanced world) then just maybe you can survive (I think you said "last") if you fought plants right"

Also, maybe I'm not circulating enough hot spots as a ptera/carno/stego/utah (what I normally play), but I rarely see stegos "holding them down" for any lengthy period of time. I see them pass through, scare things off, then go back to get their diets

[neat forge]

Or simply Sits on a Rock and is 100% Safe

[white cove]

longest I've ever seen stegos have an area "on lock" was for like 3h at NW, and there were 5 of them so you can nerf them to high hell

[white cove]

yeah, that's gotta go

though it's really only 1 rock I can think of, and I'm pretty sure we are thinking of the same one rn

[neat forge]

At NW where the Utah Rock is

[white cove]

yeh

[neat forge]

Bust Still that's the Only Reason there are Stegos

Because its the Safest spot ever atm

[white cove]

Yeah, I think the "hot spotty"-ness of that spot should decrease if stegos can't go up on that rock

I mean, I'm against anything that can't jump being able to rock climb (lookin at you crocs and carnos) but it's just ridiculous when stego does it

[harsh lark]

damn, victory not being guaranteed in a pvp game? I don't know where you pulled "fighting plants" from me saying that there should be a stronger focus on fulfilling your diets. If something engages you it shouldn't be an instant win for you because of the dino you picked. If you can plan accordingly prior and position yourself well for a long defensive battle you should definitely prevail. But you definitely don't need the current excess of power to where you can afford to waste time and resources defending things that don't concern you and not suffer for it.

[neat forge]

I somehow can imagine that a Carno can go up there (what still isn't good)
But a stego? It would just Slip and slide down if it would try to go up there

[white cove]

well, you said it should have a "PvE" focus as a herbivore and its foremost concern should be diet above all else so I hope you can connect the dots to fighting plants. That said, victory isn't assured. I've seen plenty of stegos go down to coordinated utah packs or taking a bad fight against crocs (it's real easy to get boxed in) but at the end of the day: the fights stego loses are not ones that it has the option to back out of

almost every other dino has that ability, if a fights going south you can take steps to remove yourself from the situation. Stego cannot do that, you're too slow and big. So you better be able to win the vast majority of fights that other dinos pick with you, especially if they're as fast as the two options rn

Also, I don't see large utah groups struggling against stegos too hard (saying that as a utah player). The only times I've lost to them as 4+ utahs is desync and when my pounce bugs out and I sit there clawing air

and when 50% of the playable land carnivores can take you down, I don't consider it too dire

[vocal minnow]

update 3 utah vs stego was the best

[white cove]

^only rough bit with that is that the other carnivore makes it so your prime competition isn't around in large groups. And that's no fault of stego

[dusky surge]

isnt stego currently one of the most hardest to fulfil diets with an extremely high reliance on them due to horribly long growth without

[white cove]

shh

[dusky surge]

u3 stego was also woefully underpowered for what it was and, frankly, was very awful for the overall time investment and size

[white cove]

Growth time shouldn't be considered when talking about stego, because 5h doesn't matter if it's not my time 😉

[vocal minnow]

i think 4 pounces and some bites and it was dead

[harsh lark]

Missing my point about diets. I said PVE focus, because its a powerful herb thats threatened by very few things PVP wise. PVE focus isn't just about eating, its about playing against literally every other part of the game that isn't PVP. In exchange for its power Stego should have to be limited in where it goes and spends its time. It connects to your ability to PVP in that if you fufill your diets you're a viable PVP contestant that can hold its own.

[dusky surge]

before the pounce got changed to bleed instead of raw damage, utahs literally could shred a stego if they all pounced at once, before the utahs were even out of stam

[vocal minnow]

16 head bites from utah and it was dead xd

[dusky surge]

yea, which is pretty fucking shitty if you're an apex. Stego was dogshit during that update, shocking

[white cove]

I mean, I hate to burst your bubble but it still is limited to where it goes. It's just that the player hotspots all seem to be in and around its diet.
NW: Pumpkins
Center: Marigold
Swampwall: Sumac

[harsh lark]

No? one of the biggest fails of the diets system is that growth time is literally the only debuff that matters, and an adult stego doesn't care about that. Once you're adult you can go do whatever you want, graze for food even and the worst you gotta deal with is minor inconveniences like stam regen or scent range.

[dusky surge]

Stego was legitimately one of the most pathetic animals in the game during U3

the fact that even carnos were running up and killing them was ridiculous

[white cove]

I'd disagree hard with that statement. The bleed and HP regen is massive when it comes to adult stego, and it's the reason some are so strong

it's hard to keep them bleeding on account of great defensive weaponry (see: tail) and with perfect diet they regen their massive bloodpool quick

Without it, they don't regen it v fast at all when they're standing

[dusky surge]

Everything shat on them, most herbis at the time shared this level of sheer garbage. Teno was the only outlier, but required so much more thinking and effort than every other animal that people went with the carnivores basically all the time

[harsh lark]

Please don't overblow how much hp regen matters when you can still oneshot nearly everything and tank equally as much.

Sure if you get a lone stego in a perfect scenario hunt where its surrounded by utahs and isn't in a spot disadvantageous for pounce to work

but it really doesnt matter enough, and all you have to do is look at how most stegos currently play to see that

[white cove]

Would you rather perfect diet gave you attackpower? While that would hurt stego being able to go out of its way to guard places of interest (which you don't seem to get the vast majority don't, they just stop by action that is in the middle of their diet fields but whatever) it would harm carnivores a lot more I'd imagine

as they would be hunting to get said perfect diet

[harsh lark]

"garbage because not immortal"

[dusky surge]

what

not at all what i implied but sure

deinosuchus, which took as long to grow at the time, literally beat stego in every way and WAS basically immortal but hey, stego bad amirite

[white cove]

no it was garbage because it took 5h to grow but could be not-difficultly killed by 2 utahs that took 2.5h to grow combined lol

[harsh lark]

Officer I swear the stego didn't mean to run across the river and beeline straight for the teno I was hunting, he was just passing by. Jokes aside you can make diets variable for species. Its already kind of flawed that all dinos incur the exact same debuffs for failing diets since they have different strengths that can make up or be hindered more by them

[harsh lark]

why is it garbage because its not a raid boss that demands 12 hours worth of carnos/utahs to kill?

[dusky surge]

stego got shat on by basically any competent carnivore, took 5 hours to grow, had a godawful juvi stage with no real defences, and when it did reach adult, could get fucking destroyed easily. Meanwhile, deino could grow safely in the water, could easily pressure any animal off a body or out of its way, could retreat to the water in danger and had the greatest threat to its survival literally be itself.

But stego bad because strong herbivore so stego deserved it

[white cove]

....because it took 5h to grow and could be killed by any adult that could see it's big red spikes lmao

You're looking at this from one perspective and one perspective only

[vocal minnow]

yeah but if you fight a stego with a group of about 4-6 utahs 3-5 will die

[white cove]

Stego being strong does not take away the agency of carnivore players entirely. If it intervenes in a fight or decided to "guard" an area then it is slow and possible to kite. When stego was weak it took away the agency of any player that picked it almost completely

[vocal minnow]

even as an skilled utah you would die sometimes because of latency or unluck

[dusky surge]

if deino is immortal, oppressive, deals insane damage and camps bodies from carnivores, while also interfering with fights: good, this is realistic as deino is big bad carnivore

if stego is the same but can't easily retreat from its problems to a safe place, has a harder time reaching adult, has no natural bleed resist, has less health and can't use its attacks at all effectively while trying to attack: bad animal, herbi should not do this, it eat grass and die

[white cove]

eat grass and die

[harsh lark]

It still oneshot utah and 2 shot carno back then, it had less hp yeah but still enough that you couldnt burst it down before it reacted. Its a dino you had to risk getting oneshot/put on onetap by going in on it multiple times. Not even including that this was when stegos fought on open ground and didnt go up to trees that could insta rub off utahs or sit in shallow water.

[white cove]

I am now convinced you did not play update 3

[harsh lark]

Update 3 is probably the update I played the most of, how the hell do you get to that conclusion.

did you think stego had a cotton tail back then?

[vocal minnow]

stegos always trolled deinos back then

[white cove]

I feel like being able to "burst it down before it reacted" with a pack of carnivores that took an hour of bushwacking to grow isn't fun for the person that spent 5h being a walking meal but

eat grass and die I suppose

[harsh lark]

I mean ideally both should just be brought down to level. Its not like the power creep is solely a stego or deino problem and the implication that nerfing one means handing the "immortality crown" to the other doesn't make sense.

[dusky surge]

the strongest U3 herbivore was literally dryo, statistically

which is fucking hilarious and extremely sad

[white cove]

I mean, I can get behind nerfing stego to the "level field" if you reduce its growth to like 3h base

[harsh lark]

I said you couldn't burst it down. Read my post. Back then it took 7 headshots from a carno to kill. Unless you literally go AFK theres nothing that kills stego before it reacts

[white cove]

Ah, I did misread your post

oh god yeah 350N biteforce carno was a nightmare

good riddance

[harsh lark]

yeah no thats exactly my ideal too. I definitely wouldn't keep long grow times with a nerf too because long growth times arent even fun or actual difficulty filters anyways.

[vocal minnow]

does anyone know how many pounces you need to kill a stego

[dusky surge]

all the carnivores were insanely overtuned in U3, especially carno and deino

[vocal minnow]

carno is still overtuned xd

[dusky surge]

eh, honestly, carno would be less overtuned if they just did something about its tracking

[vocal minnow]

i mean right now the devs try to balance every dino but when more dinos will come to the game there will be carnivores for example that just cant win against a herbi that is just stronger (not even with skill)

the tracking right now is to op

[dusky surge]

i think its mainly a problem on carno, idc as much about utah having it

[vocal minnow]

i think its the same for utah

[dusky surge]

its the same for utah but it fits utah more

[white cove]

which is how Dondi implied people should feel about stego, but the playerbase said "no thanks, small game hunter should be able to thrash the thing" and went to #balance-feedback to whine

[dusky surge]

carno having it is just really dumb tho

[white cove]

so I doubt it will go over well when that happens

I think at least 3 devs have pointed out that Troodon are going to be dangerous in groups but I can already see the flood of complaints that it is too weak when a single troodon nipping the heals of an adult stego for 15m doesn't cause it to hallucinate a cliff and stab itself in the eye

[vocal minnow]

i think its okay that they not nerf stego because when other dinos will come they have to do all the work again and that will just take their time

[white cove]

Dondi take

Like I'm pretty sure that was his exactly

#isle-discussion message
yeah, there's the dondi take

[vocal minnow]

lol

[keen plover]

Are people still having troubles with stegos this update?

[white cove]

yeah they're unstoppable corpse guarding area controlling offensively defending stabbing machines

:}

[keen plover]

I see

[vocal minnow]

stego players are trolling and doing all these things because there isnt a dino that can compete with them so it is really boring and they are just trolling

[white cove]

I mean

there is a dino that can compete with them

it is utah raptor

[keen plover]

Broken sadly

[vocal minnow]

only when the stego is really bad

[white cove]

but if any amount of utah raptors large enough to pose a threat to stego group up, they start borking like morons and then the speed police show up

[vocal minnow]

with that i mean when they dont know how to buck

[keen plover]

I wouldn't even consider a utah a threat since it's very easy to counter using terrain

[white cove]

not entirely true, as stego will regen stam slower while bleeding

[keen plover]

Well a threat, but a low to moderate one at most

[white cove]

so eventually you will win that war of attrition

[white cove]

ye, but I think the devs have done a decent job at forcing stego into the open for its diet plants

sumac being a bit of an exception

[vocal minnow]

if i was a stego and i know that i will die soon if i keep doing the same thing i would just go to a corner and nothing can kill you

[keen plover]

There's still a lot of trees that you can trap utahs on

[white cove]

yus, trees do have too many plains

wrong order

message still clear

though I don't think that's the fault of stego and its stats shouldn't be punished for map flaws

[keen plover]

Honestly, bushes are fine but remove a lot of the trees imo

[white cove]

It'd be like nerfing deino to only be able to lunge < 1 ton because all drinkable water is dangerous now

https://tenor.com/view/that-doesnt-seem-fair-wanda-maximoff-wanda-elizabeth-olsen-doctor-strange-in-the-multiverse-of-madness-gif-24886294

[vocal minnow]

i fought a stego some time ago with 2 carnos the stego was really low he just went to a cliff and hid in a bush and we couldnt do anyhting about it

[keen plover]

My friend and I almost had one as well this patch, but they just swam across the river and had deino buddies

as 2 carnos*

Stego is immortal, but since the map has changed and they're bad at defending things- I think it's fine as is. Just need some bug fixes on utah and maybe they can be challenged more consistently

[golden coral]

Now when was the last time you did that vs a deino? Or are they as usual an exception to the whole "immortal" thing? ^^

[keen plover]

They are immortal as well? I don't know what point you're arguing here

[golden coral]

My point is that people think stegos being immortal is an issue, but not deinos, despite them taking equally long to grow and all that. (in theory at least). My point is that people think utahs and carnos should hunt stegos, but not deinos, for some reason. My point is that there's no complaints about "my utah pack can't kill a deino" while there's a lot of complaining about not being able to kill a stego, despite them being about equally bad targets for a utah pack. And so on.

[dusky surge]

eh, utah should be at least slightly capable of taking down stegos

carnos however should stay in their lane lmao

[golden coral]

You wanted stegos to be challenged more consistently, but what about deinos then? Or should they as usual be the best, safest, and most powerful option and that's just fine? When deinos are at risk as much as stegos are, then it might be reasonable to argue stego issues, but as long as deino can grow much safer, much faster, have overall more power, and so on, I think there should be far more complaints about them that there are.

[dusky surge]

you see, stego herbivore (bad, should die). Deino carnivore apex (cool, should be allowed to fight all)

[keen plover]

Personally, I dislike deino more than stego since the whole 1 shot ability thing. Only fine for now due to bugged water locations and shallow water.

Also how it's immortal in its environment and screws over things like teno

[dusky surge]

Stego having a harder diet, worse juvi stage, less safety from predators, no control over what does and doesn't fight them, significantly worse stealth, less health, less bleed resist, more vulnerable body parts? Doesn't excuse it being strong + herbivore

[keen plover]

Teno is great at swimming, deinos ruin the point of it

[white cove]

stego guards a body? Bad, things cannot fight it

Deino guards a body?

Not a problem deino eats the body, balanced restored

[dusky surge]

Deino should shitstomp stego so we can finally have a balanced ecosystem where, no matter the herbivore, a carnivore always beats it

[keen plover]

herbi=food

[dusky surge]

but hey guys, stego does a lot of damage, so it's too strong. Not like deino can also one-shot a teno/carno, but way more easily

[keen plover]

^^joke btw

[golden coral]

About the same as anky to me, but I'm thinking balance "in the end", not current one. My worry about current one is and will always be that people get used to something and then if/when it changes, But that wasn't really my main point here, it was more so that stego gets seen as the thing they should hunt, meanwhile a deino is still invunerable on land, more or less, from what I know. It's the hydration that shits on them, not the 10+ utah or carno pack that might attack them if they show their face.

[dusky surge]

fuck no, anky should literally be almost impervious to utahs lmao

[white cove]

I just don't think it's fair that stego butts into engagements to protect things and is able to do so without being murderized is all

[dusky surge]

its a giant fucking armoured bastard vs small bleeders

[keen plover]

I wonder how good ankys swing range is

[dusky surge]

stego should be WAY more favourable than anky for a utah

[golden coral]

@keen ploverSo yeah, my main point was just that. I see a lot of "we hunted stego but failed" but few "we hunted deino but failed" and that would be my "issue" here :p

[keen plover]

ah fair

I don't mind current stego, I play teno, carno and dryo so I just avoid them lol

[dusky surge]

except deino can also do that, the only thing stopping it is stego

without stego being the way it is, deinos would be twice the pest a stego is

[white cove]

yes but it doesn't protect things, it just tries to murder everything. I like that more for some reason

protecting other species (or even your own species!!!) instead of eating plants and dying like you are supposed to is kinda cringe ngl

[dusky surge]

i've seen tons of deinos walk up onto land, take meat, leave. You get nothing from the kill, same as body guarding, except the deino removes the body so you can't even get back to it later

[white cove]

which is fine because reasons idk

[dusky surge]

deino carnivore (good)

[keen plover]

stego players get bored quickly as well

[golden coral]

Eh, maybe not WAY more favourable. (mostly cause in that case, how do we relate that to ceratopsids, and in turn hadrosaurs that should be the absolutely best? Not to forget the big carnis like giga and rex at that) I'd say a slight bit more favourable yes, since anky should be last on the list for herbivores barring sauropods (utahs hunting brachi?), but at the same time, anky is armored but has less "reach", stego is the other way around. Stego is fragile, if you can get to it, but it's "reach" would be better than ankys. But overall, anky sure is the worst option, since it still has plenty good defensive ability aside from armor.

[keen plover]

anky reach scares me

[golden coral]

Also yes, species butting in when unasked for is a problem, no matter what does it :p

Please stop trying to hide around me as stego, I'm not there for your protection, I just want my food and be on my way

[keen plover]

will it be short, if so then I can see it being fodder to more agile mid tiers, even with a reduced headshot multiplier

[dusky surge]

anky has big-ass armour, which means utah's MAIN tool (bleed) becomes way less powerful. I honestly do believe, out of every apex, utahs SHOULD struggle the most with anky.

Sauropods are also like, their own tier so I don't even count them as apexes

[golden coral]

I honestly don't know how good anky vs stego reach in attacks would be, I imagine stego might be more .. flexible? But I have no idea how that will turn out

[golden coral]

What, did you miss that one guy who wanted utahs to climb up the sauropods neck and kill them that way, or however it was? :p

[dusky surge]

lmao

[keen plover]

irl stego has insane range, better than anky iirc. Also anky would be slower as well

[golden coral]

And no, I'm serious, I did see someone argue for that, though I guess they could have been trolling, but then Islecord.. :p

[keen plover]

Stegos flexibility is what makes it so good. Idk how well an anky can protect its head

It should be really good in game though if possible

[golden coral]

Oh yes, absolutely. I was more so just saying that the difference shouldn't be too big, but for different reasons. But no doubt anky is the absolute worse due to the combination of really good armor and above average reach and all. But you know my list. Hadrosaurs-Ceratopsids-Stegosaurs- Ankylosaur, from best to worst options on the herbi side, if we ignore proper sauropods (magy doesnt count obviously!). On carnivore side I would say from best to worst: Rex/Giga - Allo/similar faster but still strong - Spinosaurids(due to water usage)-Deino(since it can properly just dive and ignore the rest of the world).

Anky has armor on head though, so it would be safer anywa probably when it comes to that.

[dusky surge]

Allo?

That's not even close to apex lmao

[golden coral]

Did I say that?

[dusky surge]

you def did

[golden coral]

No? :p

Better?

[dusky surge]

"Rex/Giga - Allo/similar faster but still strong"

allo still there

also deino has bleed resist on top of diving, completely unfavourable for utah

[golden coral]

Yes, but the -. I was listing them in order of good/bad targets for a utah pack. And I'm trying to say Rex/Giga is better targets in a sense than allo/similar sized critters, due to the former being slower and bigger, easier targets, whereas the latter might be agile enough to fight back better.

[dusky surge]

idk why you included allo on list of apexes tho lmao

[golden coral]

I'm not, you're just reading it wrong ^^

• Means next in the list. Not together. As in Rex/Giga - Allo/whatever else we get there - Spinosaurids

Maybe it just makes sense to me :D But I'm not saying allo is an apex no.

[neat forge]

It's funny that you just can say that the people who voted ❌ on my Post are just Stego players who dont want their 5h get killed because they can't climb on a Safe Spot

[keen plover]

I don't see the argument for a stego to be up there

or even have anything go up there that's large

[neat forge]

There is none
Stego is not supposed to go on a Rock where it can play safe until its 100% HP again if they want to play safe play with Tree's but on the Rock Stego can't die and that's that's Fact
But if you ❌ against it you simply have no brain or not enough IQ to understand that idk

[vocal minnow]

true

[golden coral]

Should just remove rocks entirely, no more safety rocks for anyone! :D

[keen plover]

I feel like small tiers should be able to reach generally high places. Ones like utah at least

[neat forge]

Utah, Hypsi for Higher Rocks and Teno only little one or they should have a harder time to get up
Carno and Stego should stay on the Ground

[neat forge]

But then I want Uath and Hypsi with Wings in exchange

[golden coral]

At least one of them have feathers, and if hypsi gets to climb and jump and all, it's close enough? :p

[neat forge]

If they can Jump to the Moon I'm satisfied

[golden coral]

xD Maybe if we got more interesting terrain for hypsis to play in, that'd be nice

[neat forge]

Hypsi Flying glitch

How about Hypsi can Survive a Stego Tail Swipe but gets shot right Into Brazil

[old hull]

a fate worse then death

[undone rapids]

ok

[ornate stream]

It would be interesting but since we assume only therapods developed flight, it might be a stretch too far for the isle

It would be cool if they fell slower though by spreading their tail feathers though

[hexed sorrel]

@long oriole thats just the terrible desync thats been in the game for 2 years the devs claim to fix but gets worse every update.

[long oriole]

Ahh ok, well that's fun

[golden coral]

I think carno does have some issues with the hitbox

[hasty coyote]

I heard that the hitbox actually is a bit bigger than the head as well

[hexed sorrel]

probably why pachy gets head fractures while not even hitting the head lol

[hasty coyote]

Nah, it’s just the bite hitbox that’s big. Pachy ram is just broken af. I have missed a point blank ram on a carno while we were standing still.

[hollow canyon]

@hasty coyote@long oriole@hexed sorrel

It's not desync, it's just a bugged hitbox, depending on the camera angle Carno gets xenomorph jaws that shootout of its mouth and hit things ~a yard away from it.

some more examples:

Carno's perspective, showing the camera angle:

[hasty coyote]

Yep, that’s what I thought

[hollow canyon]

It's the most important thing that has to be fixed about Carno

the fact that this animal can bite you from a mile away is a really big issue with it as it makes a tonne of the counterplay just useless

how can you kick a Carno as a Teno if the goddamn thing bites you from outside of your kick range?

This and grouping have to get fixed about this animal and I think it should be more or less balanced(although I'd still nerf its bleed tbh)

[spare badger]

That's so dumb

[thin mantle]

Mmm yes Carno’s shadow bite, love to see it

[hollow canyon]

Yea that's the most important fix on this animal atm I think

[stable quest]

10/10 really fun to deal with

[thin mantle]

Not as fun as getting lunged by a deino tho, a true testament to skill and prowess
|| ||

[half girder]

utah has legacy utah sized hit box lol

3-4 more months of this fun gameplay

[fresh laurel]

Elaborate

[half girder]

was a joke. cuz the size of it was shrunk

[fresh laurel]

Oh

[hexed sorrel]

oh damn lmao

yeah no, carno is in a good place right now 👍

[hollow canyon]

This isn't a Carno-specific issue as I found out. Apparently this is how hitboxes work on all the animals. It's just most noticeable on Carno.

[covert cave]

@versed rune while a movement rework is definitely needed for ptera, I don’t think it needs to be doing any damage than it already does; it has no reason to be trying to attack anything that isn’t a juvi/fresh spawn, aside from extra-small tiers, and it can already do that quite well

And also a 25 N bite with Petra’s current weight would make canni pteras absolute monsters

[versed rune]

I get that completely , ptera is a Dino I’m quite touchy on balancing personally

I think ptera should go up to 85kg weight personally

And the 25 damage would let it 1 shot hypsi which tbh it should be able to do

[covert cave]

With a weight increase 25 would def be justified

[versed rune]

I’d also wanna see a dryo weight increase up to 150, and see his damage go up to 25 as well

[covert cave]

I think maybe instead of that, give dryo an alt attack

[versed rune]

I wouldn’t mind a sort of scratch/kick attack for dryo

[covert cave]

When troo comes in dryo’s going to have an awful time defending itself w/ just a bite

[versed rune]

Honestly

I don’t think troodon will be very good

I think dryo will mostly be fine against it even with venom

It can just run and juke it like there’s no tomorrow

[covert cave]

Either way, I’d still like a dryo kick attack

[versed rune]

I def agree

[stray venture]

I really dont think it will either unlike utah it really cant hold its own by itself and you will need like 12 people just to kill a teno

[dusky surge]

I still disagree, always thought that the heavy ptera was utterly ridiculous. While I do agree that ptera movement is stupid, I always hated how grossly overweight it was

[fresh laurel]

tbh now its not even a good meal anymore lol

[mental roost]

Let the ugly sea gull enjoy his 20 Big Macs in peace

[swift beacon]

counter-idea: reduce the standard bite to 5, and increase the alt-LMB to be 30, prevents aerial cheese entirely but if you land you can kill things on the ground pretty easily, including the mirror match (1-tap on headshot)

[old hull]

that ptera suggestion there has me giggling , "my friend couldnt do anything to counter this ptera" while they sit there as a croc on a rock lol

guess they never heard that deinosuchus can swim

[keen plover]

I mean, those ptera sweats are not that common. Mainly a nuisance

Funny thing is, on paper, they can kill anything that can't jump

[mighty oxide]

@analog mirage I see what you're saying, and I agree that it feels that way right now, but these smaller dinos that are defenseless right now (hypsi, dryo) have mechanics that just aren't implemented yet. Dryo will burrow (although I do think it desperately needs a speed buff and it's dodge mechanic needs some optimization). Hypsi will climb. And as for ptera, I believe(?) I could quote kissen on saying that there was some sort of forgotten mechanic it had that they still want to implement. And it's worth noting that a dryo is comparable to a rabbit while a herrera would be comparable to a fox here. They're definitely a similar size, but that rabbit only has so much of a fighting chance.

[analog mirage]

When compared in size Dryo is not a rabbit, niche wise it is yes but it’s much capable of defending itself from a Herrera if need be

Even this chart which isn’t official or anything clearly shows they are around the same size

[mighty oxide]

Hmm, fair enough. I can see your point there. It's not like I think they should be defenseless, I just think it'd be strange to see a small prey animal like a dryo's elected defense strategy be battle, and not, say dashing to your burrow and starving out the predator. I don't think these animals were intended for a battle playstyle, they're just unfinished.

[dusky surge]

agreed, i do believe dryo needs a LOT more

[mighty oxide]

Now I could DEFINITELY see dryo and hypsi getting temporary buffs that give them a fighting chance against things like sub utahs and midsize carnos, until they GET finished, just to manage the state of the game as it is.

[analog mirage]

Raise Dryo bite to 30-40, give it burrow, maybe the dodge directional and it should be good as a general small burrower who evades and hides

[dusky surge]

why damage buff? i dont understand, nor see the need

[analog mirage]

To fend off stuff like Herrera

[dusky surge]

????

[analog mirage]

If need be to fight

[dusky surge]

It's a PLAINS animal. Herrera is a JUNGLE animal

[analog mirage]

Doesn’t matter. They could easily still meet

[dusky surge]

Also dryo can very likely out-endure the herrera and escape

I don't see the need for EVERYTHING to fight. Dryo should not be winning fights with herrerra imho lmao

[mighty oxide]

The point of dryo gameplay has always essentially been a burrow troll. You're cute, loud, annoying sometimes, and you're a bitch to catch with maneuverability and hiding spots. If you want fighting gameplay, dryo was not designed for you.

[dusky surge]

^

[analog mirage]

I guess. I just don’t see it doing much to a Herrera if it must fight

[dusky surge]

it can escape, it doesnt need to fight

imho, dryo should have way more stam than herra

[covert cave]

Give dryo an alt kick attack

[marsh lion]

I thought it was mentioned, or revealed at one point that dyro was going to have a kick attack. I swear I saw something like that.

[swift beacon]

aye, it's more like a deer or antelope

I don't think it should be trying to fight, though, and with a higher biteforce (30 is higher than Tenonto's, mind you) it could threaten Utahs in groups like it used to, which I don't think it should

[mighty oxide]

Sorry for late reply, got busy. I feel like if you're playing as a dryo and you've been backed into a corner and forced to fight, you've already lost since the game is to not get caught. That's also why they have such a quick growth cycle, they're generally harmless to the rest of the population.

[swift beacon]

^

though that said, I think if given a stationary kick it could be able to fend itself from predation if skilled

end goal is not to be caught though

[mighty oxide]

^^ yes! maybe it could kick up a dust cloud or something to give itself a better chance of fleeing and also do some minimal damage?

Although that may be laying it on a bit too thick for how hard they'll be to catch, actually

[swift beacon]

Nah, I mean like an actual damaging kick

Something similar to Tenonto claw, Utah/Carno/Deino alt-bites, or the Stego stab

Stand in place, kick in desired direction, do damage

Drawback is that you're a Dryo standing still

[mighty oxide]

Ohh I see! Yeah that sounds like it could be a really good addition to its kit

[swift beacon]

It'll help with nesting for the most part

Since under most circumstances, a Dryo wants to stay on the move

[mighty oxide]

My hope is that we can nest in burrows. I doubt that'll happen though, and burrows will likely still be able to be invaded by juvis and the like, so that'll definitely come in handy

[swift beacon]

Against similarly-sized or larger assets it won't be much help, but against smaller ones such as Velo, Troodon, Ovi, or freshspawn/juvie carnivores..

[analog mirage]

I don’t want it full on fighting. Just enough damage to at the very least defend itself as a last ditch plan to potentially ward off foes like Herrera

So actually yeah a stationary kick would be fine instead of a biteforce raise

However I do feel 10 is way too low for Dryo so maybe like 20

[swift beacon]

10 is a bit high imo

[mighty oxide]

The point is though, if you're playing as dryo or hypsi and you come to where you NEED to last ditch defend, you've lost your game. You've failed at the gameplay. You failed to employ your advantage of escaping and you've been caught. That's the point you spawn back in and run around for another 30 minutes.

[desert wave]

Stationary kick sounds great for defending nests from similar sized animals

Because currently even a fresh spawn Utah which is basically a baby could scare a fully grown dryo of it‘s nest which seems kinda lame to me

[swift beacon]

Dryo should not reliably defend against similarly sized animals, even with a kick. Its first defense is speed and evasion, and if it's in a situation where it loses out on that capability I feel there's bigger issues at play

[hasty coyote]

dryo should have the ability to defend its burrow/nest from smaller things, you dont want a juvie utah running up and murdering a dryo in its own home. However, dryo should not be able to fight anything like half the size of it and bigger

like dryo should not be able to fight a troodon 1v1

[fresh laurel]

I think Dryo could punt something half its size but not same size

[fresh laurel]

Dryo would kill troodon in a 1v1...

[hasty coyote]

like maybe give it a alt kick similar to pachy's alt

[fresh laurel]

Troodon is one shot to well a basic utah bite

[hasty coyote]

i havent seen the size comparison, arent they about the same size? like troodon is like 2/3 the size of dryo if not the same zize?

[fresh laurel]

Even with its current bite it would be silly to see it not bother hitting something half its size

[fresh laurel]

Troodon is bigger than Hypsi a bit iirc

but thats really it

[hasty coyote]

i severely doubt that, then its the size of a compy

[fresh laurel]

I meant bigger breh

[hasty coyote]

the art shows it like up to a teno's belly , so its a bit bigger

[fresh laurel]

If Troodon can some how apply enough venom to Dryo without getting punted then sure troodon could win but thats just skill

[fresh laurel]

mean while ingame...

[hasty coyote]

if troodon is like 2/3 the size of dryo, then dryo should lose. if troodon is as small as you say, then it should lose

[hasty coyote]

i havent seen it in game, so i may be wrong, but i dont have any other good size comparison other than that

[fresh laurel]

it seems waaay smaller ingame plus concept isnt always final so I mean...

but I could always be wrong

wait lemme pull something up

[hasty coyote]

still, thats why im saying i have no other thing to base it off of. i havent seen it next to things in game. So im basing it off of the size i think it is

ok i may have been wrong, i watched its trailer for its calls and it appears to be about the size of a folding chair. So its likely folding against a dryo if it gets buffs

[fresh laurel]

cant find the one picture...

[hasty coyote]

I’m losing all sense of scale at this point and I’m just giving up until they release it.

[swift beacon]

I mean they showed it on stream next to a Ptera at one point

[fresh laurel]

theres a pic of it next to utah and compy and troodon was pretty small

[swift beacon]

https://youtu.be/RFqGShgxvog

At like the 2 min mark you see it next to a Ptera

[hasty coyote]

thats a baby pt, it would be the size of a compy at that point

so we have 2/3 the size of dryo, half the size of dryo, and now compy size. im done

[swift beacon]

2 minute and 12 second mark, a Utah shows up and kills the Ptera

[brittle dirge]

I really hope they don't keep it around that size cause

[hollow canyon]

Troodon weighs 40-60kg iirc, Dryo 120kg so it's 2-3 times bigger

[swift beacon]

^

Troodon could likely kill a Dryo with venom, but odds are it dies first to getting kicked/pecked to death

And, assuming how severe the effects of venom are, the Dryo might live if not pressured by a swarm

[brittle dirge]

At that point why even bother making it a playable and hype it up as well? Lmao

[swift beacon]

How common are Dryos?

[hasty coyote]

if troodons have trouble killing a dryo, then no one is gonna play them

its just gonna be a compy with venom

[swift beacon]

Different playstyle

Somewhat disposable swarm predator

[hasty coyote]

ill prob still play them because its funny to troll

[hollow canyon]

Who said they're gonna have trouble killing Dryos? The point is that Dryos will likely be able to kill them too due to the fact that Troodon is tiny

[swift beacon]

I mean, I did say they might struggle

Again, depends on how the venom works

[hollow canyon]

Sure, because Dryo is absolutely capable of hitting back at them

[hasty coyote]

thats the issue, can you get a swarm? if you cant get a swarm, then less people are gonna play them, which means less swarms, and it just keeps compounding

[swift beacon]

If it's a "bite and do x damage over time" kind of venom, it'll likely be far too effective at punching up

If they go full attrition, then it's unlikely they can kill a Dryo reliably

In theory, there's a blend that lets Troodon be a decent, if fragile, threat to Dryo that doesn't feel unfun to fight, while still letting it fairly whittle down the likes of Tenonto, Kentro, and Magy

[azure crescent]

tap says the dinos in her concept art tend to be oversized iirc

[white cove]

october

[swift beacon]

That's the last we saw it in-game near assets

[dusky surge]

because it sounds like a blast lmao

[half girder]

one year to release a small

[brittle dirge]

respectfully disagree cause I can only imagine how awful the camera pov would be for something that small. they also may as well go full jp and just give compy venom and it'd offer the exact same gameplay assuming the in-game size we've seen turns out to be the final one

[keen plover]

I'd love to see how common they are 1 months after they release. I hope it's good though, but if they're losing to dryos solo then lol

[dusky surge]

i personally love the idea behind troodon

[white cove]

I mean, if they do manage to beat dryos solo then respectfully: why would you ever pick dryo even by mistake\

[keen plover]

Will dryo be faster? I'd at least think that's possible

[white cove]

If dryo's purpose is to lose to everything even troodon then just play hypsi I guess

[keen plover]

I mean, I have hope for dryo when trample arrives, since I doubt they'll add any damage buffs or an additional attack. If a 120kg animal can't steam roll something at 60kg with trample. Then I have no hope for the thing "combat" wise. Dryo is put into this weak place because rabbit or something. Even when fighting creatures smaller than it lol

"Just run, even if they are a fraction of your size". Also the hitbox for pecks is bad

[alpine plover]

weasel vs rabbt

[keen plover]

I do want a fight where there's risk involved for the troodon, yet it still can beat a dryo. However I expect it to be where the dryo is faster and it just runs away

[dusky surge]

Ima just be honest right now, i think no creature needa nerfing rn, carno players can kill stego players in a 1v1 via baiting and tricking (quite easy actually), deinos can easily be killed the same way etc etc etc

doesnt this kind of imply carno is extremely OP lmao

if a small game hunter is, as you say, easily killing stegos and deinos, would that not imply that carno is in fact, overpowered?

[hasty coyote]

have you seen carnos counter pachies entire playstyle by either
A: just tanking the hits and walking them down
or
B: dodging the ram with WASD

[dusky surge]

also more importantly, how fucking bad is a stego to be dying to a carno

how bad is a DEINO to be losing to a carno

[hasty coyote]

if im correct, you can bite the tip of the tail and it cant reach you with its alt, but then again it has the ability to just swim and would likely dehydrate before it died to bleed.

[old hull]

you gotta be asleep during the fight to lose to a carno lol

even if you insist on being a landcroc , just wiggle around so the carnos cant just bite the tail

[cold sedge]

Stego isn’t all that hard to kill as a carno if they choose to stay out in the open. The acceleration and turn speed buffs were pretty huge for people that can play carno reasonably well. With the acceleration you can time run throughs near the head at an angle that it’s pretty hard to get hit and if you do it’s on your tail

Walking turn speed you can do something similar to the deinos tail by staying in this spot that makes it really hard to get hit as you just wiggle in and out. Stegos just have to find a tree or some bushes to obscure which way you’re looking though and the carnos chances go way down

[swift beacon]

if swarms are able to wear down a Tenonto with only the time investment of a Dryo or so per Troodon, they should be slower than a Dryo imo

hell, they should probably be similar speed to Tenonto at that level of punch-up

[white cove]

https://youtu.be/DnwdVf9VOsA

ban this hacker I was told by #balance-feedback-discussion that stego was unkillable

clearly using a third party tool to reduce that poor stego's health pool smh

[covert cave]

Stego players like this have 2 neurons

[eager ledge]

Indeed ✅

[half girder]

carno needs a nerf, what is that guy on about lmaooo

[eager ledge]

Im sry that that you are salty about this pible pebble#8635 but there has to be some places were carno can’t get you expesualy since it is the fastest thing in the game and you can hardly get away from it because of its extreme speed I’m sry that you feel carno players are being some how miss treated because of dam but I’m sry to break it to you but carno players basically get everything handed to them and currently there are many factors that make carno op currently so deal with it

[half girder]

i agree to do something about dam

why tf can a stego and croc cross but carno cant lmao

super abusable safe zone

might have to grow a stego... 😈

[eager ledge]

The stegosaurus thing is a glitch generally most of the time they can’t get on dam

[half girder]

most of the time they can

not babys ofc not

[eager ledge]

That’s because they wiggle until the glitch happens

[half girder]

i think its sub-adult