balance-feedback-discussion

[alpine plover]

welp that got the juices going, time to put out a hot take that'll get downvoted now

[languid tundra]

Ok i admit, im a fuckin idiot a good amount of the time, but I dont make up conversational parters

wait hol up... juices

[alpine plover]

creative juices

brain juice

[languid tundra]

ya nasty

well, glad that got cleared up, back to lurking LOL

[mental roost]

Is brain juice consumable?

[minor zealot]

drinkable

theyll quench yer thrist

[rapid flicker]

@glad rock couldnt agree more, carno is indeed waaay to strong

@tight cove dodge the pounce is how you counter it, if the other Utah misses the pounce he is locked in place long enough for you to get a free pounce on him and then he dies

[tight cove]

Sure you can do that, i've done it plenty, but it would still make utah vs utah combat better.

[rapid flicker]

There is still biting, but if a Utah wants to bet it all on one move, he can. Hit and make a kill or miss and die.

Its not just Utah vs Utah btw. My 80% pachy got killed yesterday from a pounce I couldnt get up from

[tight cove]

true

[tight cove]

Yeah but that's different, your a different species and you weighed less than that Utah.

I understand your pov though.

[rapid flicker]

I can see how it might be a bit boring to die by 1 move..

[old hull]

pachy weights slightly more then utah precisely for it not be pinned by utah , i imagine anything smaller then utah will have the ability to either evade the pounce or just kill it

the reason a utah counter to another pounce is not needed is because well you have the pounce too , just use yours first

the counterplay is to not be pounced in the first place , which is really not that hard unless you just arent paying attention

[elder steppe]

@stark lion in all fairness, the pachys are super nerfed right now, even a nerfed carno wouldnt help

[stark lion]

True

[elder steppe]

@mint rain i mean carnos only have one other bite attack, so there really isnt a lot of option other than the ram, its the same for raptors, they only use pounce if they arent using normal bite, but i get what you mean

[fresh laurel]

Yea...no

Dying to something your exact size by one move that you cant stop once it happens isnt exactly fun gameplay

Your dino should be fighting back

[slim dragon]

If a Utah is pinned, it will probably deal some damage to the attacker in the future

As we've seen in the new WIP animations

[fresh laurel]

In evrima testing pouncing a utah used to hurt the pouncer but it may of just been a bug

[royal topaz]

what happened to ptero's biteforce?

i hit 15 max now, baby ptero numbers right there

[slim dragon]

It's been 15 ever since the global damage nerf

[royal topaz]

yeah that means i can't even kill the babies now no?

[slim dragon]

Depends on the species

Also you can theoretically kill anything, it just requires more pecks

[royal topaz]

with 15? no

not worth the risk anymore

[slim dragon]

As long as you stay in the air, nothing can really fight back tho

But ptera isn't really meant to kill things bigger than hypsi anyway...

[royal topaz]

yeah

[dusky surge]

its been 15 since, like update 3.75

[jade brook]

Hi, i've been playing Ptera after a few months, after a couple fights with Adults carnos and stegos ended up with me getting slapped by a tail or bite by a carno which doesn't like it used to be considering the height they get me, can someone fill me in if they did a major change around the hitbox since last winter ? ( also harder to hit stuff but i want to blame myself for now )

[spare badger]

Hitboxes haven't changed

As far as I know

[stark lion]

Maybe just stop fighting carnos and stegos 👍

[ocean wagon]

I mean you could always just not fight creatures that can one shot you as a ptera and you won’t have the issue

Just a recommendation though

[neat forge]

Remember that Isle is a Survival not PvP Game, you as a PT are not meant to fight anything that isnt a Hypsi, AI or a Baby Dino

[jade brook]

🙄

[stray venture]

Doesn't excuse hit boxes being bad

[slim dragon]

I think it's intentional to let carnos and stegos have a chance at fighting back against pteras, since they cannot jump and they cannot attack upwards.

[fresh laurel]

Ever tried standing next to a wall?

Also i dont think its a good idea to make a hitbox bigger than the model because if one bird since it would affect the roster like utahs...

[hasty coyote]

The issue is that if they can reach a pt pecking them, then they can reach something hiding on a rock or a hypsi in a tree

[slim dragon]

Ofc there are so many walls on evrima maps...
And ptera is so much unable to turn it absolutely works every time

The real solution would be to allow them to attack higher up, but I guess it's not on the devs top priority list...

[hasty coyote]

That doesn’t work because of what I just said, it has unintended consequences for those who have vertical mobility.

Another solution would just to make pt’s hitbox extend further down, or make its peck put its hitbox lower

[slim dragon]

It adds counterplayto a situation where there is otherwise none
Also it wouldn't pose a problem if attacks were blocked by terrain, as they should.

[slim dragon]

That's literally the same thing as extending an attack's hitbox up, but the other way around

If it's inconsistent with the visual model, it's still bad

[fresh laurel]

Carno has legacy rex hitbox syndrom tho...

[hasty coyote]

Yes, that way it impacts the pt vs Dino and not Dino vs anything above it

[slim dragon]

Still doesn't work as a definitive solution

[hasty coyote]

No, that’s why I said another solution. I’m not sure on a definite way to allow them to fight pts, but honestly a pt does nothing to them anyway

The only time I have ever caused a real issue to an adult Dino as a pt is when I pecked a utah to death that was a 1-shot after a fight, and that was update 3

[slim dragon]

I still stand that allowing for aiming up AND making attacks blocked by objects would work
That way, is someone is on a rock and not standing at the edge like an idiot, they're safe because the rock would most likely be in the way
But it allows both fighting back against flyers and people who think they're safe as soon as they got a little bit of height

[elder steppe]

@random prairie that makes a lot of sense considering how lumbering the stegos are and how they mostly only use the muscles for tail swinging when attacking

[still cloak]

Bro, I as ptera kill two 20% stego :D

[still cloak]

Its imposible, probably you're a bad flyer, i mean if you upper than carno, carno can't hit you, i fight with carnos group near dam like for 1hour as ptera without dead. Only dinos who able to kill ptera is utahs, and other dinos who can jump. And if you attack carno as ptero, don't attack his tail cuz carno can easily alt bite then, aim for head its best tactic, if you upper than carno head he can't bite you. Use circle tactic cuz its broken just w.a.s.d up carno and spam bite its can be realy annoying for carnos xzd

And last one tip, don't attack gator head on land cuz he can easy grab ptera by using alt bite, and don't attack carno while he use ram because ram hitboxes is bugged and he can hit you if you fly upper him

[hollow canyon]

@frosty plank Teno is currently stronger than Carno in a 1v1 scenario, the issues start appearing when you're up against more than one Carno.

As for what you suggested - those are decent suggestions, really both of them. Tenonto's stamina is perfectly ok, however its cost on the tailslam is too high. You generally don't want to use this attack at all on the current patch(I mean maybe in very specific circumstances, it's definitely Teno's worst attack atm).

Tenonto is fine without any buffs but I don't think that decreasing its stamina cost on the tailslam would cause this animal to become overtly overpowered, however it would incentivise people to use this ability slightly more often.

As for the thirst - pretty sure it's the same on all the animals aside from Deino unless there was some change, in my experience it was the same on Teno and Carno and these two+Deino are my most played animals.

[hollow canyon]

Also - the point that I've seemingly missed there - Teno has much more stamina than Carno, Carno has the second lowest stam pool after Deino, it can run for only ~60 seconds.

[spare badger]

How long can teno run for? I remember it being -90 seconds?

[hollow canyon]

iirc it was 110 seconds last I've checked, might be less now, I will check it later today when I'm free to do so

[spare badger]

I haven't had the opportunity to play the game in a while so

My guess is probably wrong
Teno can never afford to run until it's out of stamina anyway since, yknow, its teno and all its attacks take a lot of stam

[stable quest]

Yeah I cant rememeber the last time I tried to tail slam, kick is the way to go even if it doesnt hit sometimes. If u get 2-3 head kicks on a carno it's in trouble.

[hollow canyon]

if you get 2-3 kicks off on a Carno's head the fight is pretty much over

[stable quest]

I definitely was a little salty I couldnt spam tail slam lmao but kick is so much more efficient and makes sense, and it takes more skill to hit which is a nice challenge

[hollow canyon]

Yea, same, slam needs a bit of a buff but that's it

[stable quest]

Yeah, kick doing the most damage is fine but slam needs a little something to make up for how much stam it takes, I dont even slam anymore because why slam only 10 times when I could kick more than that and do more damage

[hollow canyon]

I'd say that it should simply have a lower stamina cost

that's it, it's just not worth 10% of max stam

[dusky surge]

^

Anywhere from 6-8% would be more ideal

[stable quest]

Definitely

[dusky surge]

The best part about slam imho is how safe it is. Huge range/powerful stun. Lower stam just makes it safer and a better combo tool

Tail slam should stay tenos safe poking tool. It should be more powerful for combo potential rather than damage potential

[hollow canyon]

Yea, agreed

[alpine plover]

@alpine plover

[jade brook]

I only play as ptera, my post is not asking for How to not die.
I've been tail'd from a distance even i would'nt be able to hit the stego myself on the dorsal plates.
I've been fighting the same carno who got me twice with a regular bite, the vertical distance from his head and myself felt off, since it never happened months agos over fighting carnos and whatnot, if looking up and biting works now, this is new to me.

[carmine patrol]

it is true that teno can run for much longer but carno can still cover more distance in one run because of how fast it is

[slim dragon]

@manic jewel What you're saying is false

[manic jewel]

Wdym

[hasty coyote]

Isn’t it only like 6 bites to the head?

[slim dragon]

Stego has 6000 health
Deino bite deals 500 damage
Stego has a 2x damage multiplier on its head
Therefore it's 6 bites to the head to kill one, not 12

[hasty coyote]

12 to the body

[manic jewel]

Ok I guess the hit box can be weird sometimes then

[slim dragon]

If the "12 bites to the head" is something you've tested, then it's probably hitboxes being buggy, yeah
It seems to happen a lot

[hasty coyote]

All the hitboxes are weird

Pachy ram doesn’t hit half the time, carno’s infamous Wi-Fi bite, utahs pounce in general, etc

[manic jewel]

Not to mention dryos or Hypsis broken hitbox not being able to hit anything

[hollow canyon]

This would be true only if Teno had a runtime lower than 84 seconds.

[carmine patrol]

alr gonna test it rn

[eager ledge]

Wat did it end up being after the test just wondering

[carmine patrol]

still didn't test

[eager ledge]

Oh ok

Random thought I’m sitting in a parking lot and just witnessed a seagull levitate for 10 seconds in the same spot what if pteranodon did that

[carmine patrol]

ok done, they can run the same distance

[wise sparrow]

The seagull is simply built oddly

[carmine patrol]

teno a tiny bit more than carno, like 5m more

[eager ledge]

Ok

[eager ledge]

Ya it was wierd it was 10 ft off ground and just levitating for 10 seconds it was a weird sight to see

[dusky surge]

@hollow canyon after actually playing teno, i basically agree with everything you've said about the animal lmao

this thing is not at all as bad as people say

and it really only needs stam reduction on slam

[hollow canyon]

Yea, it basically takes a bit of learning how to play it correctly. This is definitely one of the better playables currently.

[hasty coyote]

@fallen vale I agree with most of what you said and just want to make you aware that pachy suffers from a few other things too. I normally play it, so I can give some more insight into it.
Ram hit detection is kinda broken atm. 1/4 of your hits just don’t do anything but still drain your stam. Then the ones you do hit break the ribs half the time, making it extremely hard to break a carno’s legs.
Then the tracking system makes the normal “break and run” play style not work. There is one situation I like to point out for this: I broke a carno’s ribs and skull then ran into the forest with the rest of my stam. He still managed to find me, with his bones still broken, before my stam regened. Granted I still got away, but still the fact he could track me that fast with 2 broken bones is insane.

[fallen vale]

The hit detection is covered with my point regarding desync. They screwed something this patch

It's affecting everyone but some special abilities are more critical than others

[hasty coyote]

Yeah, it hurts pachy nearly as much as utah

[wise sparrow]

Yea teno stat wise is great but its lacking in the stamina department for slam and it's super dependent on the game not lagging

[azure crescent]

teno and utah i think are the creatures with the highest skill ceiling

[deft blaze]

If the framerate was consistent teno and utah would be considerably better

[fallen vale]

definately are

The moment you see a mediocre tenon you know right away and it's an easy kill. While a good one you might realise when it's too late.

Same with Utah except if you see a good utah and realise he knows his shit it might not be too late already

[hollow canyon]

Teno is, Utah... less so

Utah is less so skill-based and more luck-based since the pounce works in really mysterious ways.

It's definitely more difficult and complex than Carno but Idk if it's even more difficult than Deino

[spare badger]

Teno is half luck (hitboxes and the amount of carnos there are) and half skill

Utah is 90% luck (pounce) and 10% skill

[hollow canyon]

Teno isn't about luck at all, the hitboxes on it worked just fine for me so far, the amount of Carnos is typically determined by what area of the map I'm in and... unless I'm feeling adventurous I just don't go for those large plains

In general - I need to see a video showing off the issues with Tenonto's hitboxes because I haven't seen any evidence that it exists so far

[spare badger]

I was chilling at the outskirts of swamps and 3 carnos can barreling out of nowhere
I rarely find lone carnos nowadays since they are so easy to grow

[spare badger]

I wish i took a video of it

Dude alt bit my feet and the kick didn't register somehow

[hollow canyon]

I do run into lone Carnos even nowadays, in the swamp however I don't care even if there's more than one since it's very easy to disengage from them

[spare badger]

I've heard EU servers have less carnos than NA... That true?

[hollow canyon]

In my experience - yea

I dont play that much on NA

but I run into tonnes of herbivores on EU

[spare badger]

Maybe next time I play I'll take the extra lag for less carnos

[hollow canyon]

and I pretty much never have any issues with finding a group of tenos

hell, I find them even when I dont want to

I typically broadcast to get some Carnos to come to me and then Tenontos and want to pack up

[spare badger]

I've found 1 Teno
And it was a baby
The only tenos I find are bodies

[hollow canyon]

I've found like 2 or 3 Tenos on NA3 last I've played it

it was around the swamp

[spare badger]

Granted, I haven't played in a while cause, life
So my information is a small sample size and may just have been the exceptions

[hollow canyon]

Last I've played the game a bit was like a week ago

I haven't been playing much the past couple of days and tbh... a patch came out in PoT and I think I'm going to be hanging around in that game in the near future

[wise sparrow]

Someone actually thinks growing carno is hard atm

[spare badger]

I'm waiting for primeaval
Even though that won't be out for months, I still have a lot of faith in it

[wise sparrow]

And they self upvoted

[spare badger]

Lol

[random prairie]

It's really difficult to kill another hatchling as Carno. Afk in bush till you hit 40%. Find another body before you hit 50%. Then sit till you hit fresh adult.

[hollow canyon]

I don't think that's even the most efficient way of growing if I were to rely on killing another fresh spawn every time I was attempting to grow a Carno then it would probably actually be difficult

[fresh laurel]

@wise sparrow couldnt they let deino kill stego purely while near water by adding a tug of war mechanic or something?

Like if stego starts doing the classic spamming tail swipe near the rivers then it becomes a lot more in deino favor since stego wasted some of its stamina

while on land deino cant exactly do a tug of war...

[hollow canyon]

I completely disagree with that whole feedback, this match up could absolutely be made closer and more even without making Stego lose by default

Hell... Deino doesn't lose by default NOW, it's very unlikely to win but I have won 1v1 against a fully grown Stego as Deino once. This match up isn't at all just about going hurr durr button mash on your lmb/rmb(depending on what you're playing)

[alpine plover]

Deino can still win the matchup

[hollow canyon]

if Stego's damage got lowered to some ~900 or 1k it would be more even without necessarily making Stego instalose this(matter of fact Stego can't really instalose this fight unless the devs make Deino able to grab it)

It can, it's just hard and relies on luck

[alpine plover]

If you combo normal bite to alt bite consecutively

[hollow canyon]

yea that's not quite enough in my experience tbh

[alpine plover]

To a good 70% of the time in most cases

The 30% is dependent if the Stego positions itself a bit far to avoid body hits and jabs headshots

Though I assume bite combo-ing is unintended

For Deino

[hollow canyon]

It's not the only thing you have to do tbh, you have to remain mobile as Deino and keep yourself to the front of the Stego, if your bites start landing on its back lags that tank the damage for the body you're just screwed

[alpine plover]

Ehh, it's most effective to bite combo, you can beat the pace of damage quicker than the Stego can dish out. Even if you're just landing body shots

If you take two shots while trying to position to it's head, fight's over. Best to retreat from there

With this out of the way regardless, the issue is that Stego's can waltz in almost any encounter in the ecosystem without consequence

A stego can throw itself into a horde of Deinos and still escape in a pretty okay condition to do it again quickly

[hollow canyon]

Comboint the bites won't be enought to get you the win if you're landing the bites on its back-legs

you need to be biting the right parts of the body

otherwise you will die before Stego does

As I said - it's a difficult match up for Deino, I've won this fight once and I did it by bugging the game out a bit

A good Stego won't die to Deino, it can always just run away and you won't be able to keep up with it

[alpine plover]

Attacking from behind is obviously not ideal, it's best to start near the head, but the sides can do
The alt bite can guide you up to the head when combo-ing

[hollow canyon]

yea, that's more or less what I do - using the alt bite to move around the Stego

you generally cannot run as Deino, that's just too slow and it uses up your stamina too fast which decreases the number of combo-bites you can do

[alpine plover]

Ofc, few nifty tricks to make the matchup more fair. Even if it may not be intended interactions

A fix I'd say is that Stego's should have more proper consequences

If Deinos could fracture

That'd be a start

[hollow canyon]

Nah, no

that's a terrible idea

fracture is literally the last thing either of those animals needs

Stego won't even care about the fracture for the most part, that's not helpful to Deino in this match up at all

[stray venture]

Lunge feature

[hollow canyon]

^ even worse

[stray venture]

Fracture

[hollow canyon]

yea, that's even worse than giving Deino fracture on its bite

[alpine plover]

How so?

[hollow canyon]

Because every halfwit Deino that messes up its ambush and lets go its prey due to low stamina will now get a free kill due to fractures

meanwhile it doesn't change anything in the match up against Stego, because Stego can still just turn around and whack Deino in the ground

the only thing it would change is that Stego wouldn't be able to just run away from a fight if it starts losing(which either happens rarely or never, I've never had a Stego run away from me, they always just stand there until one of us drops)

[alpine plover]

Then what would you propose?

[hollow canyon]

If you want to make this match up more even

just nerf Stego's damage - it's that simple

Stego doesn't need 1.2k+ dmg on its thagomizer

[stray venture]

for the time being or forever

[alpine plover]

It'd be an issue for future matchups though

[hollow canyon]

For the time being

[alpine plover]

Well, Stego kind of is a bad animal anyways

[stray venture]

ight

[hollow canyon]

I mean... it depends

[stray venture]

how so

[alpine plover]

Ehhh not really

[hollow canyon]

Let me put it this way - the animals that will actually CARE about Stego's damage not being that absurdly high... won't be joining the roster any time soon

literally not a single playable that is slated for Evrima cares whether Stego twoshots it or twoshots it

[stray venture]

if you are worried about the apex trio rex which is about 8 tons in isle with stegos I think 1250 damage could almost 3 shot it with headshots

[hollow canyon]

I guess the only one that could maybe care about it is... Cerato?

[alpine plover]

It's so slow that any of the Apexes can catch it
While it's feasible for smalls or possibly some mids to contest/hunt it

[hollow canyon]

nah it couldn't

[stray venture]

how heavy will rex be

[hollow canyon]

I'm talking about a scenario where Rex has 8k health

[stray venture]

so 8 tons

[hollow canyon]

Yea

Stego wouldn't be even close to 3 shotting it

[stray venture]

headshots

[hollow canyon]

it would need to headshot it 5 times to kill it

Yea

[stray venture]

unless it got chanced from 2x damage to 1.5

[hollow canyon]

It didn't, it's always been x1.5

[stray venture]

really?

[hollow canyon]

It's only x2 on Stego

Yea

[stray venture]

I have been living a lie

[hollow canyon]

Yea, it's a common misconception

not that it matters, Rex isn't even slated for Evrima

we have...

9 animals coming before it

and that's being optimistic

[stray venture]

im still confused on that whole slated for evirma thing is like evimra gonna be a separate branch of isle or does it just mean it wont get added during the evimra stage of the recode.

[hollow canyon]

the devs have released 3 last year

[hollow canyon]

From what I understand - Evrima is a stage of development or the official survival game mode

The animals that aren't slated for it won't be added to the game before legacy gets deleted if I understand correctly

in general they won't be added before all the stuff that's currently planned for Evrima is in

we have 9 additional playables slated for Evrima

the current rate of release of new playables was... not that good to put it mildly

I wouldn't worry about the apexes for now in general

as for Stego - it should really get a rework before apexes come out

this animal just doesn't feel like Stegosaurus should, it plays like some giant scorpion that jabs stuff from afar

[alpine plover]

I always had the idea that the jab should be a "Heavy" move rather than it's default attack

Nerf the stam, and the damage would be justifiable

[hollow canyon]

Maybe, turn that into an alt attack and give it some swiping motion as the default rmb or something

[alpine plover]

Yeah, Sprinting Legacy Stego's was toxic, but it felt fair in the moments when they trotted or stationery

[hollow canyon]

I don't particularly care for Stego to be perfectly honest, I think it's a really boring playable I don't have a problem with it being the "Destroya" that it is right now since... it's just not an animal that I particularly want to interact with

I mean maybe if I was playing grouping up as Utah more

[alpine plover]

Ehhh

[hollow canyon]

but in general I do think that Stego vs Deinos hould be less one-sided

[alpine plover]

Utah's dont play like Utah anyways

[hollow canyon]

and I think the most sensible way of achieving that is to nerf Stego's damage

[alpine plover]

Even when I do get a good group size going, we never go for Stego

[hollow canyon]

I wanted to last time I grouped up, I got some 2 pounces on a Stego but the rest of the pack didn't feel like risking it

[stray venture]

utah should be able to go after stego in big groups but the problem is pounce breaks every update and its a pack animal so its inconsistent af

[alpine plover]

Too long or too risky, especially when we exit we get caught off from the pounce

[stray venture]

which would be fine if pounce didnt bug out and there was a player base of herbis other than teno and stego

[alpine plover]

There's nothing we can actually hunt unless we're mobbing it right down, pounce isn't strong enough for what it's worth

Essentially we're punished for pack hunting

So we munch on juvies or ai

[astral peak]

what is balance

[hollow canyon]

balance is pretty much all the feedback regarding how the playables interact with one another, if one is doing too well, if something deals too much damage or if it's too tanky, or if something is too weak. That's the channel to discuss such matters.

[half girder]

pounce is fine just bugged, utah could use a stam buff tho

[alpine plover]

Ehh, it's a dependent ability that isn't worth the bang for it's buck

Which we have no alternative for using

[elder steppe]

yeah for that pounce, i think it should use less stam, i jumped on and off a stego twice in quick succession and was less than half on stam.

[alpine plover]

I can hit headshots, or land all my pounces

But most people can't say the same

Which is how pack sizes are quickly culled when forming and deciding we should "pack hunt"

[elder steppe]

for the pounce, it's like sniping in realistic shooters, you have to pounce where the dino is going, not where it is lol

[hollow canyon]

I completely disagree, the main issue with the pounce is how buggy it is, the bang it gives is quite enormous, you just typically can't see it

[elder steppe]

Does a good amount of bleed, but takes a lot of stam, I personally haven't noticed any bugs with it, but i might just not recognize the bug.

What bug is with the pounce

[alpine plover]

Ofc when it lands, it's powerful, but the bugs or the fundamentals of how to employ the ability itself is an issue

[hollow canyon]

Well yea, the bugs are the basic issue

[alpine plover]

The delay was to balance out the busted lawnmower pounce back in update 2. Which pounce currently does not function like anymore

The alternatives or team coordinated abilities are lackluster too

[hollow canyon]

here's one:
https://youtu.be/Vd5IX25hBUg?t=762

but there's far more

you can phase through stuff

you can miss the pounce at point blank which puts your in the recovery animation right next to your target

there's also a thing that can make you drop on the ground randomly without any reason

[alpine plover]

Hmm

Should "Bite" cause a slow affect?

[ocean wagon]

"Please limit stego's growth to 75% or less until it has feasible methods of being killed in EVRIMA." omg what???

[old hull]

stego is just straight up boring for both parties atm , it serves no purpose at all since litterally anyone with half a brain will ignore them as if they dont even exist

and as for deinosuchus , if you let a stego even see you as a deino then your already playing wrong , forget even attempting to fight it lol

[alpine plover]

Stego should've stayed as ai tbh

Also fellow sangheli

hello there

[languid tundra]

unpopular opinion: stego players arent taking up valuable spots, its someone playing a dino they want to play just like all of you other players, sure its strong, but that doesnt make someone who plays them any worse than anyone else. Stop shitting on stego players for just picking stego.

[fallen vale]

this

[alpine plover]

@neat forge of course, nerf carno stam, instead of being able to run run for 30 seconds it should be able to run only 15

@frosty plank carno stam good? Wtf? Is the worst in the game

[neat forge]

Then Manage the Stam better
Carno is for Ambush not Endurance
You come fast and with Impact and if you failed go away before Utahs will get you out of stam

Played Carno by myself Yesterday and I just could run into Utahs kill 4 and Run away like nothing happened

[alpine plover]

Is not a management problem, carno stam sucks, carno cant outstam utah, also utahs just have to turn to dodge carno

[somber sphinx]

Not when carno has a good turn radius now

[alpine plover]

So you are telling me carno shouldn't be able to fail a charge and have enough stam to retreat, why? Every carnivore should be able to retreat

[neat forge]

Then managed the stam right??

[alpine plover]

Utah still has much better turn and dosge capability

[neat forge]

One thing
WiFi Bites

Will hit you when you walk around a Carno

[alpine plover]

What management? Carno has to be able to retreat

[neat forge]

Yes manage your stam right so you can retreat

[alpine plover]

That is a game problem not due to carno buff

[neat forge]

Your not for endurance if you stay to long the stam should be fucked

[alpine plover]

It is fucked if you use stam too much

[neat forge]

If you fail a ambush you shouldn't be able to go like
Welp then I'm just gonna stay there

Run away and retreat or you won't be able to run away from Utahs

[alpine plover]

Is the utahs who should manage their stam, if the want to have stam to run, pounce for less time

[neat forge]

No one pounce atm because its not good

Still Utah can't run long

[alpine plover]

It runs for longer than carno

[neat forge]

Utahs should be able to run at least a longer distance than carno

Distance not Time

That's a difference you know

[alpine plover]

Carno is the one specialize in running

[neat forge]

In ambushing not Running itself

That's why Utah at least is meant to be for Longer fights
What it's clearly not if you compare to the safer and stronger alternative Called Carno

[alpine plover]

So carno should only have enough stam to run 20 meters to utah, and then not being able to run away in your opinion, that is bullshit, why should utahs be able to retreat when they want but carno just can run and if it fails runs out of stam and dies?

[alpine plover]

Why wouldn't carno be able to fight for a long time, once they have charged they just need to bite, what doesn't use stam

[neat forge]

Like I said Carno is for Impact ambushes if you run away you won't get killed by Utahs but if you think fuck it I stay and fight to long and then want to run away it's completely the players fault if the Utahs will catch him Later

I mean you don't even have to worry about Bleed just run

[alpine plover]

But carno only uses stam for the ambush, once it is seen it can just bite

[neat forge]

Yh and if you use it to long you won't have enough stam for a retreat
That Carno can bit far to often and fast is another problem

[alpine plover]

I still don't see why carno should get stam nerf, why not just buffing utah stam

[neat forge]

I said that to in my Feedback

That maybe just Buffing Utahs Endurance in Chasing would be enough

Or Nerf the Carno

[alpine plover]

Nerfing one and buffing the other at the same time is never good
Or "U4.5" Patch happens again

[neat forge]

I didn't said Buff the one and Nerf the other at the same time
One or the other

Utah has not enough stam to keep up to a Bleeding Carno who Retreats
He should be able to keep up but not at the same speed because Carno is meant to be Faster but not in the distance of you ask me

[alpine plover]

@neat forge sorry, my fault I didn't see you said one OR another, I read it like you said both at the same time

[neat forge]

Nah that would end in 0 Carnos on the Map

They just need a bit Fixing in the Stats

[alpine plover]

What I don't really understand is why there is so many people asking for nerfs to carno but everybody is fine with people asking buff for deino, the real most easy playable to use

First they complain there's to many safespots to drink, and now that devs remove most of them, other deino issues no one has ever complained about appear, like oxygen

[neat forge]

I think because Carno is the Dino with the most impact because the just Bonk other Dinos to death atm but Deino Is limited to Rivers

But if Deino would get stronger in a Tank fight against Stego it would just end with that Deino would go for Walks and kill everything they see on Land

[alpine plover]

Yeah but I mostly mean people asking for an oxygen buff

[neat forge]

I kinda would like more Oxygen for Deino and at the same time some underground water Tunnels or "Caves" as Short Cuts for Deinos

[alpine plover]

I think oxygen is ok how it is, just don't be sumerged all the time, just when you hear prey getting close

[neat forge]

But imo a Deino should win a 1v1 against Stego IF the Stego want to go fishing and just stands in the water but if the Deino comes to the land to fight a stego the stego should and gladly is atm the stronger

[alpine plover]

Yeah, I totally agree stego vs deino is unfair, but that is the only real problem with deino that needs to be fixed

[neat forge]

Would end the complaints from Deinos of fishing Stegos but at the same time won't delete the Stego

[alpine plover]

Yeah

But every other complain that isn't stego is to strong against deino, is out of place

[neat forge]

But the only thing that comes in my mind to fix this is a passive Dmg Buff while Deino is in Touch with water and will instantly go away if it doesn't swim or stand in water pits

And idk could get abused because currently there are some places where you can drink from the ground

[alpine plover]

The idea I had is making the lunge attack being just a stronger bite agaisnt unlungeable players

[neat forge]

Would be an idea too so deino will get ahead in the Tank fight and at the same time will get enough dmg to to not farm every stego away at rivers

[alpine plover]

So it can't lunge the prey but at least it causes great damage

Maybe two times the damage of the alt bite

[neat forge]

Or being able to pull the Stego not entirely pick him up but pull him more in the water for extremely high stam cost

[alpine plover]

I think what would be perfect is a lunge attack to the head removing 1/5 or 1/4 of stego health

[neat forge]

Many Stegos would think twice if they want to go fishing if anytime a Deino could come and slowly pull them in the water

Like deino will pull Stego fast im the water but stego still can try to safe itself if it walks in the opposite direction the stego is trying to pull you

[dusky surge]

I love how deino has one counter in the entire current ecosystem which it can easily evade by simply not getting close to them and that simply MUST change.

[alpine plover]

But that would only fix the problem against the stegos that are camping inside the river/swamp

[neat forge]

Yh but the problem is that stegos can force themselves to them

A Deino can anytime just not attack the Stego but stego can just go in the water tail first and will just stay there

[dusky surge]

You can leave. There has never been a scenario where I have died to stego as deino and it HASN’T been my own fault

[neat forge]

Yh but the idea is to let deino have more risk trying to go fishing

[alpine plover]

Yeah, except stego is in their diet and if they just don't attack him maybe they don't find another prey in thr next 30 minutes

[dusky surge]

Stego can’t dive and has a dogshit swimspeed, you literally cannot die to it unless trying

[neat forge]

The best idea would probably to just don't let Stego Tail swipe while standing in the rivers
(Not Water pits)

But that is to hard to program

[dusky surge]

Maybe save deino countering stego for when stego isn’t the only thing in the entire ecosystem keeping deinos in line

Because deino has more health than a stego, is the only animal with bleed resist and can dive into water to evade any danger. Making current deino beat current stego makes current deino twice the problem stego is

[alpine plover]

Deino doesn't have to be counter of stego, it just should be able to hunt them

[dusky surge]

It can

If you don’t play dumb you can kill stegos in 2v1s or even 1v1s

[alpine plover]

And a ptera can kill a carno, it depends on the iq of the enemy player

[neat forge]

Still there is the problem
Let's say there is a Herbi Herd and want to Drink
Deinos are waiting to grab 1-2 then 1 or 2 stegos join walk in the water and
Rest in Peace for the Deino ambush now there is no chance for them to get 1 if the stay behind the stego

[dusky surge]

Not at all comparable

[alpine plover]

What is not dumb for you?

[neat forge]

It should only be stronger in the water

On Land it should get Clapped by Stegos

[dusky surge]

It already is stronger in the water, how much stronger does it need to be

[neat forge]

That's why I had a Idea for a passive DMG Buff while being in contact in water

[dusky surge]

God no

[neat forge]

If its stronger such situations wouldn't happen

[alpine plover]

But that doesn't make sense

[dusky surge]

That sounds ridiculous

[alpine plover]

Is like ptera having a peck buff when flying

[neat forge]

I know but I don't get a other idea except Deino being able to Pull stego in water

[dusky surge]

Does rain also give deino the power since water touches it

lmao

[neat forge]

Just really really slow and high stam use

[alpine plover]

[neat forge]

Let's gooo
But if this would work I want a 200% speed Buff to

[dusky surge]

What

????

[neat forge]

Speedy Deino

[alpine plover]

Deino already has a mobility buff in water, one that makes sense

[neat forge]

Faster than carno

I want to see it lol

[dusky surge]

200% deino isn’t faster than carno

[neat forge]

No no for the joking Deino 200% more movement speed while raining

[dusky surge]

Also deino is already faster than carno.

In water.

Where it should be

[neat forge]

Because you said does it work while raining

Did I really just had to explain my Joke...

[dusky surge]

I literally have no fucking clue where this discussion is going rn

[alpine plover]

Wasting time is the objective rn

[neat forge]

I was joking...
I just want Deino to be able to play tug of war with Stego

[dusky surge]

Deino should not have some random damage buff, that just leads to utter bullshit and makes no logical sense

[neat forge]

I was joking

[alpine plover]

Lunge attack being just a stronger bite against unlungeable prey is a buff that makes sense

[dusky surge]

Didn’t seem like it when you first suggested it lmao

[neat forge]

There it was an idea I said I could get abused too

[alpine plover]

Is difficult to sound ironic with writing

@dusky surge did the nest building and skin system qa finished

[neat forge]

Letting Deino be able to play tug of war with Stego would be the coolest idea
Stego has to walk in the opposite direction to not get pulled in the water and cant swipe at this time and will make Stegos a bit more aware of maybe not Grief and go fishing (with a huge Stam drain on both sides)

Because while fishing they're mostly far away from the land what can End deadly for a Steg

[dusky surge]

NDA

[alpine plover]

Seriously? you can't share that information, is not like you are spoiling anything if you tell me

[dusky surge]

NDA

[alpine plover]

Yes I know what that means

[dusky surge]

What part of “non-disclosure agreement” is the part that says I can share how far the update has gone in QA

[alpine plover]

I just asked if it finished

What valuable information can that give me?

[dusky surge]

Honestly, I don’t even know what the fuck you even meant in your question. “ did the nest building and skin system qa finished”, the hell this even mean

[dusky surge]

It can tell you how far along the update is and how far development has come. It’s still against the rules of an NDA.

[alpine plover]

don't worry, I understand you can't tell that info even if it is trivial

[alpine plover]

I don't know how that is going to let me know how far the update is but ok

#balance-feedback is not the place for that kind of suggestion , it better fits #general-feedback @alpine plover

It's a balance mechanic

@fallen vale why using kick then if it is just a worst tail slam

And of course tenos can't disenage a fight, they are not the ones that choose

[fallen vale]

Because it currently does as much damage if more with a bleed for less stam at the moment. I think they went for "stun with the tail slam, damage while stunned with back kick" which works fine for 1v1 but in this game 1v1 are a rarity. Having more damage on tail slam gave the opportunity for skilled players to keep in respect more opponents at once and they always had the opportunity to leave after making some mistakes (except Utahs but they die against everything anyway). I'm talking here swarms of carnos who can just run at you an spam click as if you damage one the other ones can still just facetank

[alpine plover]

And tail slam did gave teno the ability to kill carno, in fact it was the only efficient attack to do that

[dusky surge]

I’d rather see tail slam use less stam than go back to doing as much damage as it did in U4

[somber sphinx]

@fallen vale The tail slam for teno was stupidly OP, it had a long range, high damage and used almost no stam so every teno just used that ability and nothing else. But now people use tenos full kit instead of spamming only 1 ability. Also if we kept u4 teno then it would stomp on anything smaler than a carno.

[fallen vale]

You mean you couldn't just facetank it and spam a teno while attacking it from behind? Look around. It's carnoland

[alpine plover]

U4 teno, catch a carno with slam, stun him, 2 more free slams, bye bye half of the carno health

[dusky surge]

U4 teno was the most boring teno I’ve ever played. Who needs combos or skilled play when you can just spam tail to win. What a bore. Keep tail as it is but reduce that absurd stam usage

[fallen vale]

He could run away. People had no idea how to play against a teno obivously.

[dusky surge]

I recently played the current teno and holy shit it’s actually so much more fun and skill-based

[somber sphinx]

The only reasion its «carnoland» is bc of carnos diet, and if a carno is facetanking then turn around and kick it

[dusky surge]

The worst part about this teno is 100% stam drain on slam, reduce that and you have a really well balanced and designed animal

[alpine plover]

Yeah and tenos that die in 1vs1 against carno don't know to fight carno either

[dusky surge]

If we rebuff the tail slam, teno will go back to be a boring, no skill slam spammer

[alpine plover]

Same if rebuffing pachy, brainded pachys hunting carnos

[fallen vale]

I have stomped dozens of groups of tenos as a solo carno in U4, cry me a river. You missed my entire point. The point is currently carnos roam around in large group and back kicks are pretty useless against multiple opponents compared to tail slams. 1v1 are not what you will encounter playing a teno currently most of the time. I don't need your schooling on how to play teno or carno. You could not simply "spam tail slam" against multiple carnos in U4 as you would quickly run out of stam, if you did that the rest of the carnos would jump you. But you could keep them in respect enough so that they can't consider coming 2-3 of them to spam click or apply enough damage so that they leave you alone. The only ones who died were the greedy ones who had it coming.

https://youtu.be/5XoEqcmjHss
https://youtu.be/MNbyjftgQsc

[alpine plover]

True

[somber sphinx]

The only «buff» pachy should get is the turn radius when its about to ram some1

[fallen vale]

Nice 1v1 schooling, thanks for the tip

[alpine plover]

Most people don't notice, but carnoland is caused in most part by the removal of oasis, i would say more than 50% of the carnos died there, now they just don't die because there is no oasis so no herbi packs around it

[fallen vale]

It's caused by the fact that nerfs on herbies + major level design nerf for herbies (crossing the entire map to get 3 diets as a teno while it is packed with carnos everywhere) + buffs to carnos = tripple buff to carnos and tripple nerfs to herbivores.

The map layout changes were much needed though

The combat balance were not except for pachies stun locking abilities

Which was busted when you had multiple of them

Progging a carno at the moment is a major joke

[alpine plover]

That is why before buffing or nerfing playables, what they have to do is changing carni diet, and with changing it I mean removing the advantage carni have before 50% growth

[fallen vale]

Carno is the complete easy mode

[alpine plover]

All carnivores are

[fallen vale]

The 50% growth buff is also busted, I get the idea but 20-25% should be enough

forgot to mention it

good point

[alpine plover]

People mostly complain about carno cause, deino is only in water, and utah is small so is obvious that dying to a carno is the most common thing

What I don't want is carno being unplayable the first months of U5

[fallen vale]

As for norh west overpacking the moment that they fix the drinking through terrain bugs north west will not be that viable anymore to just stack up

Since people will have to go drink in the river and get eaten

at least some of them

[jade brook]

Make carno's diet only on carno, problem solved, probably

[fallen vale]

😆

I have no issues with that

Love seeing these "OMG CONIBOLS RUNNNN" in chat

[shut salmon]

yeah i don't have a problem with that either... as long as canibalism is used to survive and not just for fun killing other players... then it starts to get annoying... or you play together for a while... it gets boring and instead of leaving you get killed first and then leave... very annoying (short off-topic)

[alpine plover]

People will always kill their own for fun, doesn't matter if they can eat their own or not

[shut salmon]

yes I know .. still very annoying

[supple basin]

For fun... or regulating sometimes ...

[fallen vale]

At the moment the only way to have a fun server is for decent carno duos / trios to wipe out other carnos off the map. Otherwise they stack up and "have fun" by roaming around around like a locust swarm. Yesterday on EU5 we wiped out groups of 5-6 carnos "hanging out". If people just want to grow a carno the easy way and the only way they can actually play is to overpack and gang bang what ever they come accross because it's "fun" then I have no problem wiping them off. It gives a lot more room for other species to play. I also think carno packs should be limited to 2 instead of 3 at the moment considering what is playable at the moment and the balance.

[minor idol]

As problematic as Stego is, I don't think Utah should be able to take on Stego with only 3-4 members
It should take a large pack.

Utah is already going to be a problem for things like Ceratopsians, rather than buffing it against an animal that is supposed to be able to deal with packs much easier because it leans into AoE.

For Stego control, I honestly want them to bring in more mid tiers. Alberto, Allo, Sucho would be nice, as well as a few other herbivore mid tiers like Pachyrhino. With more mid tier carnivores, Stego will be strong with those around but at least will have more viable predators with those one's in packs.

[mighty knot]

It's more of a right now thing, I agree it should require more utahs and it should be mid tier carnivores that are the main threat to stego. However it's gonna be a few years before we get that, so allowing small packs of utahs to be a threat would help give stego something to worry about right now. Buffing it later so it doesn't get steamrolled by allo would likely be the best way to go about it.

[halcyon granite]

this !

[fallen vale]

Not to mention that guys who play like this are complete wusses when it comes to fighting. We would engage in 3v4 and usually after a few bites you always have at least one who ditch his buddies instantly

[halcyon granite]

hahahahahha spitting fact bruda, id like to add that usually they come back and throw insults at you cuz u kill them hahah those are the best hahahahah

[stray venture]

Big pack should but they shouldn't have the advantage Utah as a pack animal should be able to take on things stego size but should have a hard time

[fallen vale]

Omg CANNIBOLSSSS F*** U

WHY?!

[sleek obsidian]

The “why?” is what I live for

[hollow canyon]

It's more so that people have no idea how to play Teno right now

[hollow canyon]

You can't facetank a Teno right now, unless it's hot garbage(which most are).

[fallen vale]

not in a 1v1, in otherwise you pretty much can without issues

[hollow canyon]

If you were a Carno and fought against a bunch of Tenontos that would try to either clawswipe you or bite you to death in update 4 you could facetank them too.

It's all about the skill

[fallen vale]

Tail slam just doesn't do much damage output and costs a fortune of stam and kick is garbage agains't multiple opponents

[hollow canyon]

Well yea the tailslam has a too high stamina cost

it needs to be toned down

[fallen vale]

So you just need 2-3 brain deads to come spam clic behind and it's a joke for them

[carmine patrol]

true, taislam should deal atleast 260N (7 shot carnos) and its stam cost should be reduced to 6-7%

[hollow canyon]

If you're 1v2-3 Carnos then you shouldn't be winning that fight. Idk what you expect

1v2 is kind of doable at times btw although I typically just ran when I wanted to survive in such circumstances

[carmine patrol]

kialso kick being faster made it harder to hit, atleast for me

[hollow canyon]

Wdym kick being faster?

[carmine patrol]

kick speed got increased

[hollow canyon]

Where do you get this information from?

[carmine patrol]

it's literally in the patch notes

[fallen vale]

It was close to that in 4.0. I believe it took around 6 tail slams to down a carno. Usually they had 2 passes at you before they died on the 3rd one. You really had to be greedy to die

[hollow canyon]

Oh, you mean the animation

[carmine patrol]

and I thought you said that you play teno a lot, how did you not notice?

[hollow canyon]

Cause I haven't used the kick prior to this patch

[fallen vale]

It's like almost instant now the kick

[hollow canyon]

I mean I've used it like 3 times before it got buffed

it was trash before, now it's actually a good attack

[carmine patrol]

it was actually 5 tail slams, 4 if you got a head shot

[fallen vale]

The hitbox is bad, the cone radius seems way too small and it's so fast its now almost like a bite attack. It really reduces the amount of anticipation that teno used to take. Uninteresting gameplay. Tail slam was much more interesting and you could really shine when it came time to punish opponents who were doing bad plays / being greedy.

[carmine patrol]

not really, it was much easier to hit

atleast for me

[hollow canyon]

Also - when you said it's "faster" I assumed you meant Teno attacks faster wtth it

which it doesn't, it still has an attack rate of 1 per second

[carmine patrol]

same as it was in 4.0, but they just made the animation look stupid and weightless

[hollow canyon]

Tailslam was boring chore, you literally just tailslammed your opponent repeatedly whenever they got CC, with the kick you actually need to put some thought into it because you can't reach your opponent from afar

[fallen vale]

I think both attacks should be viable. I see a lot of novice tenos who can't handle tail slam properly and before the patch kick was not too viable because of the low damage and shitty hitbox

I think kick should have a larger cone radius a bit and be slower like it use to be.

[hollow canyon]

I mean I agree but the only reason why slam is bad is because it costs too much stamina

I still use it sometimes but its use is just very niche

[fallen vale]

The damage is trash too. You can facetank it now

[carmine patrol]

yeah, 10 to kill a carno is absurd

[hollow canyon]

You're not supposed to be tailslamming when something is trying to facetank you

You don't need 10 tailslams to kill a Carno

[carmine patrol]

true, kicking is what you do

[carmine patrol]

you do

[hollow canyon]

Unless you're landing attacks on the base of its tail or something

[hollow canyon]

No, you don't

[fallen vale]

You argument falls flat the moment there are more than one carnos which is let's face it 90% of the time if you play on officials.

[carmine patrol]

nope, even on the body

7 on the head

[hollow canyon]

I play on officials

[hollow canyon]

5 on the head

Idk where you're getting this information from, I literally know how much damage Teno's tailslam does

[carmine patrol]

believe me, I tested billions of times

[hollow canyon]

You tested it wrong

[fallen vale]

I look forward to see clips of you fighting an actual group of carnos and landing all these nice headshots

[carmine patrol]

wanna hop on taco and try?

[hollow canyon]

Sure

[fallen vale]

the hell is taco?

[hollow canyon]

I'm not dumb enough to fight a group of Carnos

[fallen vale]

https://tenor.com/view/eye-roll-ugh-stanley-rolls-eyes-gif-9403428

[carmine patrol]

unofficial server that gives admin commands to anyone who asks for them

[hollow canyon]

I mean let me put it this way - for Teno to kill Carno with 10 tailslams the slam would have to deal between 180 and 200 damage

[carmine patrol]

and it does

[hollow canyon]

You literally had QA members say it does more

No it doesn't

[carmine patrol]

true

30 mins and I'll join taco to test it

[fallen vale]

The current amount of carnos atm on official servers speak for itself

[hollow canyon]

So you're telling me that you know better what the damage value of this attack is than the people who know this value because they work on the game and knowing those values is a part of their function?

[fallen vale]

most players play the easy route

[carmine patrol]

no, but I can't believe them because I tested multiple times

[hollow canyon]

You tested it wrong

[fallen vale]

The balance was better in 4.0 combat wise, the proble was level design related

[hollow canyon]

absolutely not

[carmine patrol]

we'll just test in 30mins, cya then.

[hollow canyon]

I don't have 30 minutes to wait

I have stuff to do

[stray venture]

Back when pachy could defend itself

[hollow canyon]

Either get on it now or I will just send you a video of why it does more damage

[fallen vale]

Of course it was I played a shit ton of both carno and teno in 4.0 all through the QA. They were both fine, the problem was group of herbivores stacking up at oasis and pachies stun locked abilities that they nerfed to the ground

[hollow canyon]

In general you probably need 10 tailslams to kill a Carno because your attacks register on the legs

[fallen vale]

If you had problems killing tenos with a carno in 4.0 ten you don't play carno well

[hollow canyon]

They are fine now, I play mainly Tenonto on this patch but I've played some Carno

[hollow canyon]

Yea, I've seen your video of you repeatedly charging a bunch of halfwits that didn't even fight back, that's truly indicative of balance

if you were dying to a Carno as Teno on update 4 literally l2p

I've played only teno on that patch cause it was so busted

You see the general issue seems to be that you want Tenonto to be able to at least 1v2 Carnos which isn't a fight it should be winning

[shut salmon]

Yes, I agree with you in such situations. that you then thin out the population is ok. I mean some situations like there are 4 deinos in a river...then 2 full grown ones will come and kill any other deinos they find...even if they only have 10% growth

[hollow canyon]

Because from what I can see you don't disagree that it wins a 1v1

[somber sphinx]

Teno should have the advantage in a 1v1 situation but not 1v2

[hollow canyon]

...which is exactly the current situation in this match up

I've ran this test some 20 times with some QA members and a couple of other people on Taco - Tenonto won every single fight no matter who was playing it and who was playing Carno, Tenonto just has a big advantage there(it's not impossible for Carno to win though, a couple of times it was really close)

I've also won every 1v1 I had against Carnos on officials so far

Tenonto is literally fine

[fallen vale]

We also ran our own server with some quite decent players and did tons of duels. Carno is an ambusher, if you don't play it as such then don't wonder why you're losing fight. The current game balance at the moment favours the said halfwits to gang up and run around left click spamming everything, before these morons would get sent home quite fast

[hollow canyon]

Carno isn't an ambusher

It's a pursuit predator

Deino is an ambusher

[fallen vale]

Carno coming unseen with a charge and bite to the head is the very definition of an ambush and is pretty dang strong. It was just as strong in 4.0

[hollow canyon]

An ambusher animal wants to get as close to its prey item as possible to launch an attack, that sounds like something an Allo will be doing

If you don't see a Carno coming from afar then that's the very definition of a skill issue

This animal literally isn't designed to ambush stuff

it makes noise when using its charge and it needs to create enough distance to even be able to use it

[fallen vale]

I look forward to see your combat videos, teach me your ways pro gamer

[hollow canyon]

Of what? Killing Carnos?

You say it yourself that Tenonto wins in a 1v1

I can send you some videos from Wyatt he basically does pretty much what I do with Teno

Maybe you will pick up some skills from him

[fallen vale]

Yo @vale harness I'm bad

[hollow canyon]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tJ9tHqD1ths

it's not some rocket science, Teno is definitely the harder animal to play

Carno is one of the easiest playables by design, if you're not feeling Teno just play Carno I guess

[fallen vale]

https://tenor.com/view/joke-missed-over-your-head-gif-8604199

[hollow canyon]

Your joke is bad so Idk what you want me to respond with

Let me put it this way - what is your issue with this match up right now?

Because if it's the fact that you have a tonne of Carnos deathballing around the map then yea I don't like that either

[fallen vale]

Impressive of you to not figure out that I know very well how they rebalanced the teno around kick in this patch which is exactly what my post is describing. I said I disagree with it and don't like it and it's not great to deter multiple attacking opponents as opposed to how tail slam worked

[hollow canyon]

I'd very much rather have them run around solo or in pairs

You're not supposed to be winning a fight against multiple Carnos

it's really as simple as that

Although I think you're that guy who said the thing I actually had a decent laugh about in update 4 "Teno has never been balanced so well, it can now 1v2 Carnos"

which pretty much says it all

[fallen vale]

You don't win a fight, you punish their mistakes and have them run away. Only the greedy ones end up dying.

[hollow canyon]

And yea it very much could 1v2 Carnos

[golden coral]

isn't that winning though?

[hollow canyon]

I think the best I did was 1v3

[golden coral]

If there's more than one carno, the teno runs?

Not "fight them off"

[carmine patrol]

alright I'm back

[hollow canyon]

Good, hop on then

wait, first let me check if I can even get on taco atm

[carmine patrol]

if you can't I'll find someone else then I'll record it

[hollow canyon]

Give me a sec, I was fine the last couple of times when I was getting on it but sometimes it just doesn't show for me since it's an NA server

[fallen vale]

Which dinos outrun carnos? You can use the terrain to hold up that's the extent of it. Any group of carnos with a few remaining brain cells will at least manage to track you while screaming for help

[hollow canyon]

I'm on it

[golden coral]

Which is why you need to make sure you're in a good spot, using said terrain. But you can fight while retreating, can't you? My point was more so that if there's 2-3 carnos vs 1 teno, I don't think you should be able to purely fight that off. If you get caught like that, you need to have the help of terrain and more, or you will die.

[hollow canyon]

Look, what exactly do you propose as a solution, Poutine?

Because if you think that teno's tailslam needs a lower stam cost - I'm completely with you there, this attack needs some buffs

The ability to hit multiple opponents is useful

however atm this attack deals around 250N damage

[hollow canyon]

why would you pick Utah?

I 2 shot it

[carmine patrol]

had it since last time

[hollow canyon]

oh, I see, well swap to Carno, Utah gets 2 shot

which btw means by default that Carno doesn't get 10 shot since Utah has 1/4th of Carno's hp

but ok

[carmine patrol]

you'll see

[fallen vale]

It's a balance discussion. At the moment growing a carno is a complete joke. As a teno if you spawn north west and get a good 200% of raddish roots, then head south east and cross the entire map to get your 3rd diet in swamp, you would have spent a good 25-35min before you even get your 3rd diet, given you don't get eaten on the way. So carnos get a super easy fast growth with a big bonus instantly. You end up with way more carnos alive and big than tenos. So most of your situations as a teno player will be being outnumbered. Sure you can hangup next to a rock and never move or hide north east and never cross any players but it's extremely boring. The current state of the carno balance and population makes the game uninteresting and dull for carnos and everyone else. Increase hunger depletion of carnos somewhere between now and 4.0.

[hollow canyon]

don't move please, you're putting yourself in a way that makes me hit your legs@carmine patrol

that was... 8?

[carmine patrol]

you got headshots

I'll crouch, try to get the body only

[hollow canyon]

if I got headshots you'd go down much faster

it wouldn't need 8 slams

ok that last one was a headshot I think

[golden coral]

Yes, I quite agree that carnivores are a joke to grow. And I'm not the biggest fan of current herbi diets, I've tried most of them. But both of those issues are diet issues, and not combat balance, which is what we were talking about here? I agree that right now carnos will mob you, but that's again, an issue with diets and other things, not specifically if teno should be able to fight off multiple carnos or not. I would personally prefer if teno could stay around water more and use that, since they have that very good swim speed. But well, diets currently say no to that, I know.

[hollow canyon]

the issue with this testing is... if I tailslam more to the back I will get legshots

[carmine patrol]

you still got headshots

[fallen vale]

Revert most balance changes to 4.0 state or near it (not the map and plants spawn ones), fix drinking through terrain which will allow Deinos to ease of the carno pop aswell and foce players to take risks when chilling north west. Find something better for pachies so that it's not a world of warcraft vanilla style rogue stun locker like in 4.0 without being busted like it is now. Reduce the initial bonus before carnivores get their diet to something like 20-25%. Reduce blood pool of stegos and their damage output a bit so that bleeding them is actually a viable solution and carnos don't get one shotted so they risk it more.

[hollow canyon]

Yea this time I definitely did get headshots I had a lot of stamina left

[golden coral]

@fallen valeMaybe I misunderstood the convo here a bit, I just do not think a teno should be able to outright fight off multiple carnos. That there are other issues going on right now, does not change that sentiment, you know? Aside from that, I'm well aware that there are multiple issues, questionable balance choices, designs and so on. But it is what it is, and some of those things I'd like to see fixed requires far more than just changing a stat here or there.

[hollow canyon]

probably a better idea

[carmine patrol]

if it's 7 then I'm right

if it is 5 I owe you an apology

[hollow canyon]

straighten up your head

5

as I said

you're most likely getting 7 and 10 because the hitboxes in the game are hot garbage

and there are areas that take priority

e.g. if you hit the Carno more in the back you will hit legs because they take priority over the body that you're hitting

[carmine patrol]

alright then, I guess you're right, I'm sorry

[hollow canyon]

No need to be sorry

It's just the hitboxes in the game work in weird ways, this is a remnant of the 3.75

They'd changed it so that Deino wouldn't be able to headshot everything it bites

so if you attack something from behind the legs tank the damage

if Teno's tailslam comes from above and makes contact with both legs and body you will land a legshot

which decreases the damage severely

That's basically what happens, when we were trying to figure out the damage output of Teno's tailslam it was a nightmare, the amount of times we were landing a legshot on Pachy was insane(Pachy is good for testing since exactly 500hp)

@carmine patrolbtw tp to me for a sec, I need to go Deino and eat the bodies

[fallen vale]

You're mistaking what I'm saying. I think a decent carno should be able to also wipe out 2-3 mediocre / bad tenos. The thing is a carno can always break the fight and leave. A teno cannot and the population is currently warped torward carnos. So yes you can always chill the whole time near a rock where you could jump on or what ever but that doesn't make much interesting gameplay.

[carmine patrol]

k

[hollow canyon]

This isn't really true, you can kill a Carno if you've dished out enough kicks and clawswipes at it, if you just stay on it you can get it to bleed out.

Also sorry, but I had to do something so I was kind of afk.

I also think you're wrong in your assessment of how hard it so to grow Teno 25-35 minutes is a really long time to get a perfect diet as Teno, I typically do it in 15-25 minutes from the moment I spawn in.

Overall Carno and Teno take about as long to grow for me(which is wrong - Carno should definitely take longer and it's supposed to take longer)

[fallen vale]

Maybe halfwits lol

[hollow canyon]

I mean... idk whether it's about them being halfwits, Teno has a really high bleed on its kick

[fallen vale]

I didn't count it, it's an estimation on top of my head

[hollow canyon]

I did because I was asked about it before, it's typically 15-20 minutes, sometimes 25, it can take longer depending on which path I take though

It took me some 25 minutes while I was server hopping and growing Teno and Deino at once

[fallen vale]

Any decent carno will save a good 30% stam to be able to disapear in a forest when fighting

[carmine patrol]

which is wrong, the bleed should be the clawswipes's job

[hollow canyon]

You generally don't want to be running if you're bleeding, I mean it depends on how long that fight lasts I guess but you can definitely bleed a Carno out and follow it till it dies if you land a couple of claws and kicks on it

In general bleed is quite powerful, especially on the kick

Carno's bleed is already too high imo

and it's much lower than kick's bleed

[fallen vale]

No you put distance and then you walk or sprint a bit if he sprints at you. I didn't say run in straight line you're really going at every words

I understand the concept of bleeding in this game

[hollow canyon]

I mean... I guess it's situational, not saying you will be able to kill a Carno every time but if the fight lasts for a bit of time then yea you can hunt it down

[fallen vale]

thanks for clarifying

[fallen vale]

Like I said bad carnos yes. Once you WALKED to the woods you can put distance and disapear doesn't matter if you bleed or not

And I don't think Tenos should be a bleeder anyway for all that matter

[hollow canyon]

That depends on how close to the woods you are and how much of the distance you can walk really since the Teno should be keeping up the pressure

I have no opinion on Teno being a bleeder

I don't think it fits it?

Since I see Teno mainly as a CC-based animal

but I don't really see a problem with one of the attacks dishing out good bleed

since Teno has so many

[hollow canyon]

And yea I don't disagree with this, I think claw should do more bleed but at the same time it can't because of how bleed works in the game

but it does make the most sense as the bleeding attack for Teno I think

[carmine patrol]

how so?

[hollow canyon]

Ermm... basically the bleed output of every attack is determined by the damage dealt by that attack

so the kick does much more bleed

And yea, it's a dumb and lazy system if you ask me but what can I say?

I doubt it's going to get a change

[carmine patrol]

yea, Idek why kick does bleed in the first place, sure teno has claws on its feet but if shouldn't do that much bleed

[carmine patrol]

what about pounce, it deals like no damage but insane bleed

[hollow canyon]

It's the only exception

[carmine patrol]

why not make the claw attack do the same thing?

[hollow canyon]

Ask the devs

I've been suggesting to bring Carno's bite down in terms of the bleed it does

to 0.7

since this animal has literally 0 business bleeding stuff

or tracking it for that matter

and grouping too

[carmine patrol]

ye, carno group should only be 2

[hollow canyon]

Like the way I'd put it is - Carno is exactly where it should be stat-wise but a tonne of systems cause it to work in a wrong way atm

We need something that will stop people from going over the limits

tracking needs to vary between different animals

e.g. Cerato with the current tracking - that's good, that's how this animal should play, a godlike tracker and endurance hunter

hell maybe same goes for e.g. Utah and Dilo

but Carno? Carno has no business being this good at tracking

[carmine patrol]

I say that the charge manoeuvrability is a bit too much, but it's fine otherwise

[hollow canyon]

it's an animal that sees you in the plains and runs at you

I haven't had any issues with the charge

I think Carno has 2 issues - its infamous bite hitbox and the bleed

it shouldn't be this good at bleeding imo

and tracking but that's a general issue

with Carno it should be like - if it loses you out of its sight you basically shouldn't exist for it anymore

[carmine patrol]

I once lost a teno because of a carno spamming charge and even tho I didn't get knocked down I got tail damage

[hollow canyon]

Yea that's how it works

the tailhits don't cause you to fall down anymore

but they still deal damage, charge has locational damage now

hits on the tail do very little while headshots dish out a lot of damage

[spare badger]

Tail hits do a suprising amount of damage when a carno rams then
more than I would expect

[fallen vale]

Yeah I also noticed something similar

[spare badger]

I don't know the actual damage of charge but when they hit my tail it seems like quite a bit

[carmine patrol]

charge probably does like 360-400

[hollow canyon]

no lol

[spare badger]

That's definitely too high

[hollow canyon]

That's way too high

[spare badger]

Do you know what it is?

[hollow canyon]

No, I just know it's not that high, it's been nerfed severely since 3.75 when it was like 450 or something

[carmine patrol]

270-330?

[hollow canyon]

I will check it later to know the exact value

I've seen a couple circulating but never bothered to check them

[spare badger]

It looks like more than a bite on a tail hit but I am probably remembering that wrong

[hollow canyon]

since... I don't remember when was the last time I got hit with a charge

[hollow canyon]

correct

it does more than a bite for sure

[spare badger]

Yea that's why it looked like so much

[carmine patrol]

it takes one charge and a bite to kill pachy so prob does somwhere around 325-360

[hollow canyon]

it really depends on which part of the body you hit for Pachy

it has weird locationals

and they register weirdly too

[carmine patrol]

doesnt pachy take more damage to the body than the head?

[hollow canyon]

Yea it does

I will test it later

[carmine patrol]

I don't think it does less than 300

[hollow canyon]

I don't think it does less than 300 base either

although - wait

if it did 300 you'd be oneshotting Utahs on headshots with it

[carmine patrol]

I think you do

[hollow canyon]

you can check it really easily - just charge Utah head on - if it dies it does 300+, if it lives it does less than 300

I can't test it since I'm about to afk

well, not afk but get busy with something

I was already filling up some documents when I was cleaning up the bodies as Deino

[carmine patrol]

I did one shot utahs on officials before, but they could've had less health

[hollow canyon]

Yea it will have to be tested

I honestly dk, since I barely ever get hit by the charge

it's like... idk a legit skill issue if someone lets it land(unless you're fighting an entire mob of Carnos, then it's justified I guess)

[carmine patrol]

same lol, most carnos are stupid so they start the charge like one mile away, so you hear that GRRR and you can run off ez

[hollow canyon]

Yea that too

But idk, Carno's just an easily spotted, loud animal

[carmine patrol]

I can still land charges, I just crouch till I'm close enough then I run and charge last sec

[hollow canyon]

I've bothered to charge someone a few times since the update dropped but idk I typically assume that the person I'm fighting isn't a halfwit and will dodge it

[carmine patrol]

it's not that easy to hear, especially if you're in a herd/pack chatting and making noise which masks the sound of the carno

[hollow canyon]

I guess although Idk if I'd bother with going after an entire herd... I think I did it only like once or twice

then again I don't play that much Carno this patch

Teno all the way it is

[carmine patrol]

yea, teno is good this patch

just stam problems

[hollow canyon]

I haven't been having stam problems with it, my main issue is the gigantic Carno megapacks running around

Idk, I want them to be separated and I outlined what I'd do to achieve that

I want Carnos to be solo, cause fighting them 1v1 is really fun

but when it's 1v6 it becomes less than ideal

[hasty coyote]

Yeah I play pachy, and I can say fighting carnos 1v1 or maybe in an even group like 4v3 is fun, but fighting carnos 1v6 and just crying on a rock is not as fun

[hollow canyon]

Carnos simply have 0 business grouping up like this, they are small game hunters that solely punch down, they shouldn't realistically be able to feed themselves when in such a large group

now - tinkering with the food values is difficult so I proposed that overpacking should result in their hunger drain increasing

[hasty coyote]

Yeah, the issue with just outright decreasing hunger is that the only way to stop mega packs is by making each carno have to constantly kill to sustain itself, which is not good.

[hollow canyon]

no, no, no

What I'm suggesting is - if you start overpacking

[hasty coyote]

That overpacking idea should only really work if the other carnos around are adults

[hollow canyon]

actually you know what, I will just link you my feedback, read up what I mean exactly

[hasty coyote]

I know, I’m just pointing out why it needs to be specifically in groups

[hollow canyon]

#general-feedback message

This is specifically for Carnos(at first)

because they are pure cancer when they group up like this

the two other animals that I would potentially slap it on is Stego and Deino

[hasty coyote]

Yeah, but it’s honestly mostly because of the triple buff carno got this patch. Prob try it if the carno population doesn’t decrease after they balance everything else

[hollow canyon]

Carno is(almost) exactly where it should be when solo

I haven't had any issues surviving against lone Carnos as any animal

well I don't play Pachy though(but Pachy is just bad after the nerfs imo)

[hasty coyote]

Pachy has some issues still, but it is possible

[hollow canyon]

Pachy has a big issue with how absurd tracking is atm

[hasty coyote]

I mostly play it, carnos can just face tank you and walk you down

[hollow canyon]

Carno is the one animal that should barely track at all imo

Yea when i was testing it I've legbroken a Carno I was 1v1ing twice and it was still just able to keep on going

tracking needs a nerf, at least on Carno

the issue is that I don't think the devs pay that much attention to balancing to tinker with these mechanics for specific animals

I'd just nerf tracking for now if I could tbh

[ocean wagon]

I remember reading someone’s idea of making it so carnivores hunger drain faster if there are too many of their own species in the area that surpass the grouping limit. (Ofc this can be applied to herbivores as well) me personally I’m a fan of this idea

[alpine plover]

For me, Carno are quite ok, maybe a little too powerfull and too much health, but ok. On the other side, if they could get a bad night vision, that would balance them in opposition to Utah once the night fall.
Same for stego: a bad night vision, making them more vulnerable against croc once the night fall

[hollow canyon]

yea, that's my suggestion

kind of

[ocean wagon]

Oh lmao

[hollow canyon]

#general-feedback message

[ocean wagon]

Ye

I thinks that’s probably one of the most efficient ways to discourage mega packing

If that were to be implemented I think if should only count sub adults and adults

[hollow canyon]

juvies are going to count differently towards the group limit in the future

so that's covered by the devs already

[spare badger]

Apparently hatchlings just won't count

[mental roost]

Who sends Babies to fight?!!

[spare badger]

Who doesn't?

[mental roost]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7VM6Ui7VM6g

[hollow canyon]

@alpine plover that's just not true, only Deino and Stego oneshot Utah

[hasty coyote]

I have seen carnos 1 shot with a charge, but the utahs may have been weak

And I think it was a headshot

[covert cave]

I’m pretty sure charge one shots a full healthy Utah if it hits head

[hasty coyote]

But pachy can drop a utah to 1hp with its alt attacks, maybe kill if it gets headshots

[alpine plover]

I had one like that yes, if the carno charge you, front head, you are just dead in one time. End. On the other side, I dk how many pounce you need to kill carno, when full grown utah

[hollow canyon]

Yea but that's not something that can happen when you disengage your pounce

[covert cave]

I’d estimate 3-4 good pounces

[hollow canyon]

Depends on how much Carno moves and how long you pounce it for

If you stop the pounce immediately you're going to need a lot of them

[hasty coyote]

Still not a true 1-shot for pachy, but def a stun lock to death if they are lucky

[hollow canyon]

The question "how many pounces" is wrong by default

what you should be asking is "how many seconds of pounce do you need to kill a Carno"

and even this value will vary depending on how much Carno is moving

[alpine plover]

let's say, full ponce, 'till the last second to give you just a very small run away

[covert cave]

Well what if the carno’s bucking

[hollow canyon]

I might test it later on and see how many seconds you need depending on whether Carno is moving or not

[hasty coyote]

Still depends on a lot

Is the carno chasing, sitting, standing, or walking? And was it bucking

[hollow canyon]

bucking only changes how long you can pounce it for at that moment, it won't change how many seconds of pounce you need to kill it

[alpine plover]

well, the one shot kill from Carno, Stego, or Deino doesn't depends on many things. Just go front head. Same if pachy is lucky

[hollow canyon]

Pachy doesn't oneshot Utah, I've fought a few Pachys and they didn't oneshot me even once(then again neither did Carnos)

[hasty coyote]

They can, they just need to hit all headshots with alt attacks I believe. Or bash your head then alt it. Still very luck based

[hollow canyon]

I mean... that's kind of by definition not a "oneshot"

[hasty coyote]

I saw it happen last update at least

[hollow canyon]

"oneshot" means that you die from a single attack

[hasty coyote]

That’s what I was saying, not a true 1-shot but a stun lock to death that basically does the same thing

[hollow canyon]

I mean it's possible but I haven't had that happen

I've lost like half my hp when I got knocked down most of the time

[hasty coyote]

I saw it happen in a clip last patch, but haven’t done it myself. Granted I don’t fight utahs much.

I’d have to find a way to test it to truly know

[alpine plover]

Just had it again. Pachy come out of embush, and one shot a full grown Utah. 0 life, not just knock down, but dead

*2 Utah

[azure crescent]

they were probably low i'm assuming

since no way in hell pachy kills utahs in a single hit

[alpine plover]

yes they do

full life and so on. Almost full grown up

stade 4 and +

[azure crescent]

i've fought a lot of utahs as pachy and i've only oneshot juvies, early subs if on the head (i think) and utahs that were already very low

pachy does not do that much damage in 1 hit

maybe it stunned them with alt attack and kept doing it on the head until they died, but that's not a oneshot

[alpine plover]

utahs get outclassed by everything. To have any fun as utah you must play perfectly.

[azure crescent]

true but once you're at that skill level you're pretty much unstoppable

i've only seen 1 utah on the internet that has that skill level, just look up "slippy utah" on yt and you'll find the guy

he avoids pouncing because it makes fights "too easy"

[alpine plover]

no, one shot. No life. No need for a second shot

[azure crescent]

dude

that's just not true if the utah is 100% hp

did you know if the utahs were hurt?

[alpine plover]

I just had it...

full HP, full on everything..

[azure crescent]

were you full grown

[alpine plover]

yes, stade 4, just not 100%, but like 90 or 95%

[azure crescent]

that's a pretty decent difference in hp

did the pachy tap-charge or was it fully charged

[alpine plover]

When you have skill it helps, but i think utah is meant to be the fast one. When a lot of things are faster than you skill can only get you so far

[azure crescent]

utah is meant to be agile, he's just fast as an added benefit

that's why when you look the guy up he doesn't use the speed, he just dodges the attacks perfectly almost every time

[alpine plover]

true, but for example 10 minutes ago me and 2 other utahs fought a stego and we had it bleeding a lot. eventually after 25 minutes of fighting 2 carnos came and ruined everything. we were forced into a field to keep the steg standing. my point is that playing utah is high risk no reward.

even a deino on land is deadly, as it can turn fast and oneshot

I love utah and its mechanics but to be scared of everything isnt fun. Carno is just a better choice

[azure crescent]

as a utah, why would you attack a full grown deino?

it is extra resistant to bleed

it has a 16000 blood pool

of course you're not gonna win most times

[azure crescent]

this is true, UP4 carno and utah were perfect imo

both were a threat when used right

[alpine plover]

if the full grown deino come on land to take your diner.. But you can't even, as a pack, make him leave without high high risk. The deino just come on land and ok with it against Utah

as a Utah pack, we should, and on land. He should be even slower than a stego, and so a kind of easy prey

[azure crescent]

slow doesn't mean easy to kill

it's an 8 ton alligator with twice the blood pool

the issue i think deino has currently is that it was put too early in the game

same for stego

[alpine plover]

i just mean, still not slow enough. a croc would never chase a pack of lion on land

in water, agree

[covert cave]

utahs are not lions to deino

[azure crescent]

and it also depends on how good the pack is, i've seen one vid of a pack killing a deino

[covert cave]

a lion for deino would be more like allo

[azure crescent]

also yeah it's not a good comparison

[alpine plover]

Utah and Lion should have about the same weight

[azure crescent]

yeah but a croc and a deino don't

and no, lions weigh around 190 kg

utah weighs 450

[covert cave]

a utah could body a lion easy

[azure crescent]

absolutely

[alpine plover]

indeed, Utah, 2 time a lion.. so... Utah even bigger threat

[azure crescent]

...to a regular croc

not a deino thats 17 times bigger

[covert cave]

a deino is multiple times larger than a croc

[azure crescent]

a regular nile croc weighs more than the isle's utah

[covert cave]

it's not even fair to compare the two

[golden coral]

The problem is that the ideal prey for utah is well, hadrosaurs and ceratopsids, and we have none of them in game. Instead we have a stego, that utahs should never hunt, and a deino, that doesn't have to migrate on land and thus is never properly vunerable to anything except another deino. As well as a carno that is meant to hunt utahs and similar animals, and a pachy and teno that are both good brawlers and thus dangerous prey.

[alpine plover]

well, big lion, big croc... Just saying that attack from the back should be a dangerous opportunity, that forbid deino to fight a pack of Utah far from water

[covert cave]

no

[azure crescent]

but it's not the same size difference from normal lion and normal croc to utah and deino

a regular nile crocodile is 3.9 times bigger than a lion, and deino is 17 times bigger than utah

[alpine plover]

5 Utah VS 1 croc... Like 5 lion VS 1 croc... the croc leave

[covert cave]

deino shouldnt even consider utah a threat unless it's genuinely out of sight from water

[azure crescent]

it's not a comparison at all

[covert cave]

it's not like that at all

more like five foxes vs one croc

[azure crescent]

a single deino is 3.5 times bigger than 5 whole utahs

[alpine plover]

i think this the same issue for carno. one the strongest factor of utah is its speed and with carno in the game utahs cant out in an open field because of carnos. Carno is in a good place but because there are so many carnos utah is not very fun because you feel like prey constanly.

[golden coral]

Pretty much. Too bad a deino does not have to migrate on land much and be vunerable to carno or utah packs. But maybe that'll change if we get more lakes and not just rivers.

[alpine plover]

It's Utah, not velociraptor. Utah are more like wolf or lion than fox.

[covert cave]

you aren't understanding

[azure crescent]

dude but your comparison doesn't make sense because the weight ratio between nile crocodile and lion is far smaller than deino and utah

[alpine plover]

utah should not be able to take down a croc its pointless.

[azure crescent]

we're trying to say that deino is like 3 weight classes ahead of utah while a croc is barely 1 weight class away

[covert cave]

from a strength, size, and weight standpoint, a pack of five utahs fighting one deino is comparable to five foxes fighting a crocodie

[azure crescent]

exactly

[alpine plover]

Well, carno are quiet easy to run away as long as your are a young Utah... Once grown up, difficult

nah

[azure crescent]

the thing is that lucas thinks that the weight difference between lion and croc is the same for deino and utah

[covert cave]

yes

[alpine plover]

if you caught out in an open field its over

[covert cave]

god imagine if that were true

utahrex

[azure crescent]

the only time a utah poses a threat to a deino is when it's small and it weighs less than 900 kg

once deino weighs 900 kg the utah can be drowned, but still has the upper hand in straight combat

[alpine plover]

it's not that much about weight, than about the situation. Out of water, the croc, big or not, is dead, if surrounded by a pack of good size predator

[azure crescent]

yeah but utah compared to deino is NOT a good size predator

[covert cave]

yes, that's true, but utah isn't a good size predator to deino

allo or alberto maybe, not utah

[alpine plover]

utah isnt a predator rn lmao

depends on number

i wish i could call it a predator

[azure crescent]

you're comparing deino and utah as if the difference between them isn't 7550 kg

[covert cave]

a max pack of utahs is dirt to a deino

[azure crescent]

at the very least 10-15 utahs are needed to pose a REAL threat to a deino

you're forgetting that deino has a 16000 blood pool so it would take extra time to bleed it out

[covert cave]

i've only ever killed a deino with a normal pack of utahs when the deino
A: was bad
B: was not near water

[alpine plover]

It's Utah... Not raptor... Utah pack should be max 5.

[covert cave]

no it should be 8

[azure crescent]

dude

[covert cave]

maybe 6 if you wanted a downsize

[azure crescent]

5 utahs will only deal like half of the deino's blood pool

deino's blood pool is DOUBLE it's hp

it has more blood than a shant has hp

[covert cave]

utahs will kill a deino with base damage before it bleeds out

[azure crescent]

exactly

more efficient to bite the tail to death

and even then it would take less time

[covert cave]

which is stupid that that's possible but I digress

[azure crescent]

i agree but it's less stupid than 5 utahs killing a full grown deino

[covert cave]

fair enough

I know this isn't relevant but I would love if the devs made killing impossible with tail hits

[alpine plover]

no, I was saying that due to their size, we should expect Utah social group to be around 5

[azure crescent]

yes, i agree, but evrima utah isn't real utah

real utah is coming eventually, but this is just jp raptor

[azure crescent]

same

wouldn't make much difference tho

lower hp to minimum through tail hits, finish with body/head hit

[covert cave]

ig

maybe make tail hit damage locked after a certain percent of health is reached

[azure crescent]

would be good i think

[golden coral]

@azure crescentWhere do you get the idea that deino blood pool is doubled from?

[covert cave]

or maybe after a certain amount of damage is delt to tail

[azure crescent]

i recall seeing it in some place where there were the estimates of stats of all playables

maybe it's not true at all but even then 8k blood is a lot

[alpine plover]

Note, if Utah get a better night vision, then it can get balanced?

[azure crescent]

that and a pounce fix i think would be good

[golden coral]

Maybe, but it would be far better if we got proper prey items in the roster

[azure crescent]

UP4 utah and carno were perfect imo

[golden coral]

As it is, balancing utah for things it shouldn't really go near, is potentially only going to make it worse later

[azure crescent]

3 utahs would pose a threat to the usual carno player, and rightfully so

[fresh laurel]

with how braindead carnos are rn 2 Utahs would pose a threat

2 good Utahs can kill 2 braindead carnos

but that one good carno will stop moping Utah across the grass

[covert cave]

utah kinda sucks right now because of both epic haha desync bites and pounce bug

and it's hilarious because it's the only dino on the roster that is almost unanimously seen as balanced

[fresh laurel]

If carno got that hitbox fix then Utah vs Carno would be a lot more doable

[covert cave]

please dsvs

[fresh laurel]

I still want Utah agility to be reverted back to update 3...

I saw no reason with the changes it got there