#balance-feedback-discussion

1 messages · Page 286 of 1

thin mantle
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They better do that cartoon thing where the legs just become blurry ovals with a cloud of dust trailing behind em

sinful cove
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He also does it in place for a few seconds bouncing up and down before he shoots off

thin mantle
quiet pasture
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I just hope Ceratosaurus doesn't go back to its "a smaller allo" roots.

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Last I played legacy, I loved the up-jumped Utahraptor bully version of it. Turning on a dime, punching low and mean.

ocean wagon
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utah could ride cera though

hollow canyon
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Could it? I've never seen a Utah even attempt that and the go to strategy was either to overwhelm it and distract it with numbers or to jump over it and land a bite while hitting the ground.

ocean wagon
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oh most definitely you can ride a cera as a utah

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its not your typical "stay in one spot and bite" you have to sprint up to the opposite side that the cera is turning and bite

quiet pasture
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I've seen raptors try that. It's not difficult to pivot and catch them if they try that, and there's enough health to tank the bites for them to slip up. Once they do, they're dead.

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Only thing I hated was the effectively non-existent ambush and the abysmal stamina that made you free food for anything bigger.

alpine plover
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isn't dinopedia like inaccurate as hell or smthin?

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could be wrong but thats what I was told

smoky palm
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@hard berry the reason for people not liking ur suggestion, about making paras stam regen and bleed resistance better, is that legacy isnt being worked on anymore so its dumb to ask the devs to buff an animal that isnt even in evrima

indigo vigil
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anyway so about that dev mute, I might have to post smtg in balance feedback of a better dev team

stark knoll
indigo vigil
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By some staff yeah I was, got screenshots if u want em

stark knoll
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It's not the developers' jobs to moderate this server

indigo vigil
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Well really hope yalls relax, muted me for saying that people cannot find the mid skill of utah and therefor thing good ones are new ones and start getting stubborn with their skill..

stark knoll
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No, you were muted for attempting to instigate an argument.

indigo vigil
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Was it that little line of "let the salt build up" bit?

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it was a joke- I even put it off of the main argument

stark knoll
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Yes. Additionally you also implied that you were leaving, which very much proves that you didn't want to have any sort of conversation and just wanted to cause trouble.

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You're free to have civil conversations in here. You are not allowed to make inflammatory statements and dip out.

indigo vigil
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I was saying its not worth playing evrima with the current janky updates

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but mk

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respect you least told me why

barren oracle
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Wrong Channel nerds

sinful cove
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Very insightful feedback

indigo vigil
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#GetAStaffFeedbackChannel

tacit oriole
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On topic: @worldly venture whats the issue with Utah bleed? Afaik the only known bug actually makes it stronger, not weaker

stark knoll
tender sundial
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guys

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where do you report people?

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???

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sry for asking here tho

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im confused where to

stark knoll
tacit oriole
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@solemn sequoia most of your suggestions are already implemented, by the way

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Bleed doesn't directly drain stamina but bloodloss reduces stamina regen

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Bleed rates are heavily influenced by your current stance - sitting to standing is about 2x, to trotting is 3x, and to sprinting is 4x

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However attack animations don't count for more than your current stance, so a carno alt attacking would be the same as the standing rate. There's is an argument that any stamina expenditure should also cause increased bleed or a reduction to the bleed heal timer, but it's already a complicated system

sinful cove
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I feel like the combined features in his suggestion would just make utah totally busted

tacit oriole
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The increased stamina drain for multiple Utah's is a thing, and there are fixes for Utah pounce in the works

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Once you can aim Utah pounce I think they will be fine

sinful cove
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Buffing bleed's effects in general. Buffing Utah’s stam. Punishing victims for fighting back with extra bleed. Increased bucking stam drain. This combination sounds disgustingly op

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Herbis especially already drain stam to attack

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And carni alt bites

tacit oriole
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Bleed is getting a nerf next patch, afaik. The influence of healthiness on bleed heal timers is more than was intended

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(healthiness meaning HP, food, water, stamina)

sinful cove
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I'd have assumed that they would want healthiness to have more affect because of diets

tacit oriole
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Poor healthiness can over double the bleed heal time and also (from my testing) increase bleed rates, which I was told was not intended

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Stamina might be supposed to only affect bleed rate while it also affects bleed heal time. Unsure.

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Having actually played a heap of new Utah... They would be OK if their hunger timer let them be sneaky and wait for ambush opportunities. And if random Utah's didn't tag along and 1 call for days

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And of course inertia fix

sinful cove
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The only thing really wrong with utah rn is it has to eat a whole carno weight in food every hour or something

tacit oriole
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2 Utah's can wreck a teno if you catch it at the right time. It's just hard to wait for the right time with a micro-blackhole for a stomach

sinful cove
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It can still hunt stegos in packs, it can still kill dryos alone

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People want it to be some busted ez grow apex or something

tacit oriole
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I'm hoping dryo speed gets dropped when their dodge is fixed

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Having them the same speed as Utah makes hunting frustrating

sinful cove
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If all the ideas in that dudes suggestion got added utah would be filthy op

tacit oriole
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Most of them are in place already, but yeah

sinful cove
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Somewhat in place

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Like bleed slowing stam regen instead of outright draining stam

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Defensive animals already use stam to fight back, and he also wants bucking to drain more stam while bleeding drains stam

tacit oriole
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Multiple Utah's drain more buck stam this pstch

sinful cove
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And he wants attacking to give more bleed

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Aka more stam loss

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This would make utahs roll over everything

tacit oriole
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The current penalty for stam loss with bleed is fine

sinful cove
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Yeah it doesnt need to be busted like this guy wants

tacit oriole
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If your prey is standing still and letting you lay down nearby to recover stam, that's a good thing

sinful cove
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And what 29 people who want to grow an apex in an hour want

golden coral
tacit oriole
golden coral
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I saw your message, but I was asleep at that point in time :p

tacit oriole
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I also can't really understand why so many Utah packs run around 1 calling trying to make a megapack. They aren't like carnos that win by sheer brute strength

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All they do is send prey scattering in the opposite direction

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My last teno would have likely been killed by a Utah group if they kept their voice down

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Then they run around and stand on top of hills at centre and wonder why they are hungry... Anyway. Rant over

tacit oriole
safe anchor
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@alpine plover dont worry so much on diets dropping down so much its just numbers and a early stages also stress testing will be a thing(sorry for the ping)

alpine plover
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Nope completely fine

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Idk from what I saw it just looked like it was going down too fast and that after that he would be in a bad diet so in the short amount of time it made it look pretty tedious

alpine plover
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@bright quail devs stated there will be a dynamic grouping system where you can have only certain amount of adults. For example 2 adult deinos. And juvi you could have a certain amount of juvi created in a group and they would be kicked out of the group at a certain stage (probably sub) as a sort of coming of age where you must go into the world yourself since your strong enough to do so

fathom obsidian
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@tacit oriole I think you got something wrong on pounce bleed, it's doing lees than intended, at least in most cases, see this:

Immagine_2021-08-30_145716.jpg
tacit oriole
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"they contribute too much"

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says to me they are doing more than they should

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aka it is stronger than planned

fathom obsidian
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yeah i saw that too but read the rest

tacit oriole
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I can only read 100 words per day. I'm all out sorry

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but yeah you are probably right

golden coral
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Yeah, I think Soad is correct. The "contribute too much" would be concerning the things countering bleed time as I understood it.

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Which is precisely why when the bug is fixed, they probably need to nerf bleed in general, especially on the pounce if the dismount and everything else is fixed there.

fathom obsidian
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"bleed time isn't as long it should be, reducing the bleed damage across the board"

"you are taking significantly less bleed than you should"

"by all acounts number wise, it should be fatal, but it isn't because of that bug"

unborn iris
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Yeah, that's the problem with pounce. It's either free damage and bleed or it's not worth using. Hard to balance.

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This is going to be a never-ending thing.

fathom obsidian
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I hope to see the dismount MrDBeard got to test on the QA build

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that was much better than the current version

unborn iris
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Interesting, need to check that out.

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When was that?

golden coral
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The one I saw was stupidly fast, looked more like teleporting, but maybe that was another one entirely :p

fathom obsidian
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it was when filipe was streaming when 3.75 got released, it was the latest build of many hotfix but that one didnt make it because it was crashing and was weekend so we new get to see it live

golden coral
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But yeah, if you make pounce as safe as it is with dismount, then it's probably going to be to good again with current bleed, unless you just want something to tree-camp. Problem lies in making pounce difficult in landing, rather than dismounting.

fathom obsidian
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im sorry but since pounce is punishable in many ways while latching and while on, dismount has to be safe.

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then if the bleed after the fixes is gonna be too strong they can always tweak it

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but currently its still bugged

unborn iris
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Hopefully they are fixing the fps affecting turn rate thing. Got in a big utah pack fighting carnos. And you definitely notice the FPS hits because you can barely turn.

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I can only imagine how these people playing on toasters feel like.

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At 20 fps you feel it pretty bad.

fathom obsidian
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that dismount change was suggested by hypno since it has so much counterplay now @golden coral

tacit oriole
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pounce has so many crazy strong counters, and it's the only thing utah has... it needs to be good

unborn iris
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What dino would be the closest thing to utah without he pounce? Built more like utah was before this, going in for bites, but smaller and agile?

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In the coming roster, that is.

fathom obsidian
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I think right now utah is just buggy (turn, bleed, dismount, pounce phasing and not connecting), if it gets fixed its gonna be fine, also the stam buff which got mentioned by devs will help as well..

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and if after things are fixed its too storng then they will tweak numbers accordingly

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but yeah we gotta wait for that before jumping to conclusions, right now its a bit crippled by things that aren't working as intended

golden coral
fathom obsidian
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Tree rocks water bushes buck kill mid air while latching, kill while dismounting

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That's plenty

golden coral
golden coral
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It's rare enough to meet a pack that goes "Oh okay, that target is in a good defensive position, let's move on and find someone else"

fathom obsidian
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It needs counterplay, don't get me wrong

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Just not on dismount

golden coral
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If people were more so inclined to move on, then being on the defensive would be more viable, but people have issues giving up/backing down. So I'm not really counting "hiding" in water (and thats a full on bug) or trees/rocks as much of a counter since it just becomes a waiting game rather than a clear "no good, move on". And while bucking do get the utahs off, if dismount is safe, as it should be, it won't actually make them go away for more than a minute or two at best.

fathom obsidian
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Yeah that's why it needs the counterplay it has now, bar dismount and water immunity

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I'm on the same page

golden coral
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Pretty much. Though the whole rubbing on trees is a bit stupid. I like the idea that it requires being at a run or similar to be useful. Bucking should always be the go-to unless you're in a specific situation as far as I'm concerned. And yeah, I'd rather make landing the pounce the danger part, and not the dismount. And yes, stun on miss is a thing, but well... I guess I'm just too good at landing pounces :p

fathom obsidian
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I agree, landing the pounce should be the risky part not the dismount

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We will see after things get changed

solemn sequoia
tacit oriole
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So I'm trying to get a good VoD of the tree dismount stun

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and it's just... not working anymore

solemn sequoia
tacit oriole
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Utah - Like they go through the whole animation of flopping on their back looking like they are stunned

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but they just slide away

solemn sequoia
tacit oriole
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Correct. The behaviour used to be if you hit a tree when dismounting it's the same as if you pounce intro a tree

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~2s stun and all

solemn sequoia
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I didn't test that out, guess it's still worth keeping to the trees to not have to buck but you don't get the stub

tacit oriole
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excuse the dark shadows

solemn sequoia
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It's alright, can you still knock the Utah off with the tree?

tacit oriole
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Tree rubbing still works as expected, yeah

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but any half decent utah won't let you do that to them

solemn sequoia
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Yeah, wonder if they'll keep it for water though

tacit oriole
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So looks like my biggest gripe got fixed, the system works

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Even bucking off upslope seems weaker than it used to be

neat forge
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I feel like a Carno is just a better Utah atm when I think about that Carno 2 shots a Utah

unborn iris
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It's not even a question. Carno is arguably better than 4 utahs. Utahs have to play it perfectly to have a chance. Add more carnos and the ratio goes up even worse.

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Carno can just tank hits, he can sit on a wallow spot and you have to go in to stop him wallowing. So it's not just "bleed him out patiently". You have to keep attacking him or he can just afford to tank and wallow, getting hits as you try to stop him.

golden coral
solemn sequoia
tulip star
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How about instead of giving balance feedback for the diets we wait and see what they’re like when they release

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Y’all are giving feedback for stuff that isn’t even out yet

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As they said it’s going to be a first pass and they’re more then willing to adjust/fix things after the release of diets hence the stress test

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But giving balance feedback before the mechanic is even out seems to be a little absurd

winged sierra
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^

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the hard part is implementing it. Changing stats is simple and quick

lament cloak
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@bright quail actually that is exactly what is going to happen, there will be dynamic grouping in the future where young automatically get kicked from the group when they hit a ceratin age, assuming the group is too full

tacit oriole
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Also you can can't seem to aim them off cliffs either - they land short right on the edge

wide cosmos
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You can aim into water, that works

golden coral
cedar shore
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@alpine plover wait untill you actually playtest before giving feedback on a system you havent tried..

tacit oriole
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They landed close enough that an alt-bite actually went past them

golden coral
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Hmm, should test it standing right next to some good drop, just to see

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Curious if they're protected by a force field of some sort :p

tacit oriole
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It was a steep hill rather than a proper cliff, should note

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But it would have killed them

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One of those little super steep ones around West side of centre

river lake
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As long as diets doesnt mean death then im all for it. If you dont get the proper nutrients you shouldnt die instantly, only become very skinny and malnourished over time and eventually die because of it. But if its a situation where you just flat out die if you run your nutrients down to 0% then im not too keen on it coming into the game. Though im excited for new stuff regardless.

sonic flame
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You wouldn't die at 0% nutrients, only get very weak

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dying is for raw hunger

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tho that just drains your hp

river lake
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perfect then! If you dont diet then diets are going to be super fun.

sinful cove
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To up the realism game even more, we should use dark magic to connect isle players to their dinosaur so that when they die in game they also die in real life. They are unable to log out, the isle is their life now, it is their whole existence.

spare badger
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Ye

royal spoke
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If you enjoyed my comment and suggestion . thumbs up and like

meager ice
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100 year deino grow

royal spoke
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If i achieve 20 friendly, cool likes i will make suggestion of ai behaviour and times..

ocean wagon
tacit oriole
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Lol Billy I see you supporting 3 day growths for apexes

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Though personally I'd love it if the game got to a point where growing was as much fun as surviving at full size, so that 20 hour grow times was actually feasible

ocean wagon
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i'll hold off my harsh opinions on apex growth stages until we see another apex that isnt stego. Because I really dont see how they can make juvi stego not just seem like a smaller version of its adult counter part

tacit oriole
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Eh I think having herbivores useless as babies and juvies is justified, you expect them to be raised in a herd

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Small carnivores seem way more likely to be solo or fending for themselves

royal spoke
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thats. not fun

sinful cove
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They shouldnt be based on being in a herd to survive

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Especially if carnis have the luxury if being viable alone

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Making something only viable for survival when with protection actually drastically reduces the chances of finding a group to begin with

tacit oriole
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I personally don't see an issue with some, like stego, being less viable solo as juvy, especially when they don't need to herd as adults like say teno

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Apexes should come with challenges beyond just long growth times

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I agree with your concerns but to me it's part of the challenge

sinful cove
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Just giving up on balancing something's juvie stage because “well it should group” is honestly poor design

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Rex wont be useless as a juvie, look at it

ocean wagon
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juvi rex was a chad

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i just hope they do giga justice

sinful cove
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Why should something like a trike suffer the same growth as something that has a much better juvie stage

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lol legacy juvi giga was so boring, at least the adult was worth it

royal spoke
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@ocean wagon what does react mean?

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why did you do that

ocean wagon
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the pin emoji?

royal spoke
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yes why

ocean wagon
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10/10 idea

vagrant mural
tacit oriole
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I get the feeling that young large herbivores are meant to be an important part of some carnivores diets so not making them too strong for their size seems a good way to encourage that

sinful cove
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Making them total fodder just because of diets seems like a horrible deal for the people growing the herbis

tacit oriole
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Or maybe because I missed a lot of legacy I'm missing context

sinful cove
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If an animals juvie stage is utter trash it should be shorter than others in its tier with actually viable juvie stages at the very least

tacit oriole
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Seems reasonable to me

soft forge
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Can I just bring up the fact that in real life, carno would have one of the best accelerations despite its size. It evolved specifically to have massive acceleration

hollow canyon
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I think the main reason why people believe Carno's acceleration to be poor is the way it was portrayed in the legacy. Atm it accelerates slowly but not painfully slow like in the legacy. Utah's main issue against Carno atm is the increased inertia which will likely get decreased with update 4. Prior to the introduction of inertia it was ridiculously easy to escape a Carno as a Utah.
tl;dr Both Carno and Tenonto are fine - Utah might need some help though however the fixes that will likely be introduced with the next update should bring it to where it should be.

proud anchor
hollow canyon
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I would be extremely surprised if it was harder to avoid a Tenonto than Carno as a Utah.

proud anchor
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Correct.

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However, historically speaking they're the same speed.

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(Theoretically)

hollow canyon
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The only way Tenonto was capable of forcing an engagement against a Utahraptor was by endurance hunting it and its ability to do that has been significantly nerfed with the last patch.

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Where are you getting the idea that the two are the same speed?

proud anchor
hollow canyon
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Oh, you're using real life estimates for those animals

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those are completely irrelevant

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If the game tried to be accurate this way utah would be complete fodder

ocean wagon
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^^^

proud anchor
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Well, are we to say the Carno is running at 50mph, where the Utah is only at 30?

hollow canyon
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The animal irl was capable of reaching speeds of about 30km/h

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Nah, neither of them ran as fast

vagrant mural
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bro are we seriously using a google result from the jurassic fight club wiki as proof

hollow canyon
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Utahraptor's running speed was around 30km/h in real life which is about ~18 mph?

proud anchor
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I mean... All 'proof' is theoretical. I could dig deeper if it makes you feel better.

hollow canyon
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Basically - googling won't give you good results on the running capabilities of dinosaurs

vagrant mural
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^

hollow canyon
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The best source for that is probably Asier Larramendi's and Ruben Molina-Perez's encyclopedia of theropods

proud anchor
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Right, then the point is as follows, since we're not using real values anyway:
Developer bias.

hollow canyon
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While the book isn't a peer reviewed source of information it uses scientific method with a decent basis to estimate the running capabilities of dinosaurs

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But yes the game doesn't try to reflect the reality

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multiple animals would be completely nonviable if it did

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Utah being at the forefront

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seeing how it was a slow, bulky predator incapable of maintaining a high speed at all

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The animal that bares the name of Utahraptor in the game isn't even very similar to the actual animal

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it's heavily inspired by the Jurassic Park's Velociraptor

proud anchor
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TI_What Then it's lacking in kit. Crouch sniffing, faster sneak, all things that could make it more viable.

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Without upsetting the balance.

hollow canyon
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It actually sneaks rather fast but I think you might be misunderstanding what Utah's role in the ecosystem is. A solo Utah isn't meant to be an animal that fights larger animals at all. It's a pack hunter that hunts via attrition.

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The way it's supposed to work is that it uses its pounce to cause severe bleeding in its prey item

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And then slowly harasses it to death

proud anchor
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Right. The prey being lacking. Herbivores.

hollow canyon
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This is indeed an issue, the roster overall is pretty lacking atm

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That + Utah itself has certain issues that currently drag it down

proud anchor
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I'm of the mind that the Pterra addition multiplied this issue, by adding an essentially unreachable player-character, that has no fears, and adds almost nothing to the food chain.

hollow canyon
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As I've mentioned in my first reply - the last patch has introduced inertia into the game. This means that the faster you're moving the more difficult it is to turn. The problem is that it affects the smaller animals way too much.

proud anchor
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The Quetz will further this issue if AI is not strongly worked in.

hollow canyon
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AI is being worked on. Not sure how closely you follow the development but the next patch introduced diets into the game

proud anchor
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Not closely enough, but I'm hopeful it's soon.

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I'm just concerned with server stability when they are added.

hollow canyon
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The diet system will require each animal to look for specific food items to maintain the correct diet which gives numerous benefits

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The game as it is currently isn't even worth playing I'd say. The last patch has introduced a number of bugs that have been noted and are known to the developers. I'd personally just wait until the next update comes out, it might just resolve a lot of the issues you have with the balance.

proud anchor
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It's a "Have your cake and eat it too" situation on the player's end. It could be detrimental to PvP and overall stability, but suitability and cannibalism (especially with diet) will dip substantially.

hollow canyon
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It's hard to speculate, the diets might make the game much harder for both carnivores and herbivores, just for herbivores or they might not change it much at all. The system isn't yet balanced out so we will only be able to tell when it actually comes out on the public branch.

proud anchor
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I'm struggling through the Utah, but packs are so uncoordinated it's crazy.
Added bonus of pounce being a joke, getting stuck in the air, the animation that you failed being so late, and failing on a direct hit. Again.. Server issues, which saddens me to feel that the Utah may not be in a pleasant state in update #4. Morso than currently, due to the overarching issues with the servers not really being plesant to it's playstyle it was intended for.
"Works on paper" problems.

hollow canyon
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There are certain bugs to do with the pounce - to start off: don't pounce anything that's in the water it will cause you to bug out.

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I've gotten myself stuck after pouncing a deinosuchus that was partially in the water and it caused me to start floating in the air, stuck there until I got killed

proud anchor
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Even shallows? That could have been my main issue, which in that case I feel exploited.

hollow canyon
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Don't ever pounce anything in the shallows

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if you don't get stuck

proud anchor
hollow canyon
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you will end up getting thrown off with the attack of your opponent

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it's a bug

proud anchor
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Fair..

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Sad, but fair.

hollow canyon
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it will be fixed but as it is it's still in the game

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It's one of the things that bring Utah down, as I've mentioned above

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when those things get fixed it should get much better

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that + inertia

proud anchor
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For sure. I'm not discounting the developers' work. I'm just concerned with the place the Utah is in, and would like to see my preferred character's utility match the promise of what it is able to do in ideal circumstances.

hollow canyon
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It's currently rather bad yea but it's largely due to a number of bugs, like the water's interaction with pounce, bleed being bugged out making it weaker than it should be and a number of other things.

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Utah was really strong for a very long time in Evrima

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Back during the days of update 2 it was so good that 4 Utahs could drop a fully grown Stegosaurus in ~40 seconds

proud anchor
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It was, but that was when it was full-grown, too. Couldn't really do much as a mini other than be a pest. I've gotten more juvi on juvi kills in all of my play thanks to that addition. Welcomed.

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Makes you feel like a real stalker predator.

hollow canyon
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I've killed a number of people as a juvie Utah too, other juvies of course but some of them even more grown than me. Before the acceleration was introduced into the game small Utah was capable of zooming around its opponent with impunity just biting them to the death.

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Admittedly that got fixed months ago but still

proud anchor
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The concern is, with the Carno being ontop of you no matter what you do. (As a Utah)
From the start, can you explain why this is the issue, and how they intend to fix it?
I'm asking for the front-to-back explanation, just so I don't miss any context.

hollow canyon
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The animal had a tonne of things going for itself and needed to be toned down. It's currently suffering due to the fact that a number of bugs and unintended interactions bring it down but those aren't really considered balance-wise simply because they aren't intended to be a part of the game.

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Alright as for Carno and Utah interactions

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Utah currently handles this match up more poorly than intended due to inertia that got introduced into the game with the last patch

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Inertia is the thing that causes you to turn worse when you're running

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it has too big of an effect on the smaller animals like Utah, Dryo and Hypsi

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Meaning that a Hypsi can't really escape a Utah and a Utah can't really escape a Carno

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in normal circumstances Utah was capable of getting out of the way of the Carno before it got bitten

proud anchor
#

I see, so when you're turning, it slows you down. I was always confused, because it felt like "That carno must be breaking his ankles" where in reality.. I was actually just slowing myself down.

hollow canyon
#

I've done it myself and I pretty much only ever died to Carnos when I tried to fight them

proud anchor
hollow canyon
#

It's not so much that it slows you down it's more so that your turn rate gets worse the faster you're moving

#

Meaning that if you're to talk around you can do so in a pretty small circle

#

but if you run that circle becomes much bigger

#

Because your turn rate decreases

#

The turn rate simply decreases too much on the smaller animals

#

Inertia has too much of an effect on them

proud anchor
#

I see, so the inability to turn is the issue, and it makes you feel like you're making break-neck moves, but in reality, due to the size of the Carno, his "cone" of turning is much wider than yours at a higher speed?

hollow canyon
#

It's not even that Carno's turn rate is better - it's not. The issue is that if Utah's turn rate is bad Carno is going to be able to hit it with ease even if Carno itself turns even worse

proud anchor
#

But... How does the Raptor (and all smaller dinos) suffer more, if it's by design slower?

hollow canyon
#

Basically if you decrease the turn rate of both Utah ends up being worse because even if it still turns better than Carno it just doesn't turn well enough to be able to evade a bite.

proud anchor
#

I see...

#

No wonder, that makes it clearer, how they're always on your tail.

hollow canyon
#

It's not even about how well they turn in relation to one another but whether Utah can still turn relatively fast enough to evade a Carno

#

In normal circumstances Carno wasn't capable of staying on Utah's tail at all just because of Utah's superior turn rate. At least I've never had issues with losing Carnos as a Utah prior to this patch.

#

This increased inertia has been noted as unintentionally high by a number of QA members so it will very likely get changed with the next update but we will just have to wait and see.

proud anchor
#

Well, isn't it due to speed slowdown being too egregious to the Utah?
It feels like the Carno has gained a boost somehow.
I point to the notes of slowing dinos based on their animations, rather than mechanical expectations.

#

Carno having a longer 'stride' could have been the oversight?

hollow canyon
#

When you say "slowdown" are you speaking about the global speed nerf that all the animals have also received in the last patch or just the ability of Utah to come to a stop?

proud anchor
#

Was that uniform?

#

The mention of specific animations is what lead me to have such a concern.

tidal obsidian
#

ok

hollow canyon
#

Carno's stride hasn't changed since it was released I believe. It has been the same the whole time.

proud anchor
#

Right, but speed was balanced based on the animations.

hollow canyon
#

I mean perhaps they've changed it slightly with update 3 when the animal was getting downsized but I personally haven't noticed it getting a different stride.

proud anchor
#

"Some animals were being pushed to their absolute limit with their speeds"

tidal obsidian
#

ok

hollow canyon
#

Ok, I can explain that

proud anchor
#

So, were others treated differently, is the question.

hollow canyon
#

So basically - every animal has a base running speed that it was animated at for each of its movements

#

This speed can be increased or decreased by about ~30% before it breaks the animal's movement, typically by causing it to slide.

#

You can notice this "animals being pushed to their absolute limit" with the juvenile Tenonto

#

It is animated at an extremely high pace

#

It moves very quickly despite not travelling a particularly large distance

#

This is what the devs were trying to avoid - they wanted to slow all the animals down so as to not to force them to remain in the upper part of this speed range that I spoke of above.

proud anchor
#

Right.

#

"Moonwalking" issues.

hollow canyon
#

Exactly

proud anchor
#

Where you're over-running your animations.

#

Moving on, as that is a global change, and I don't expect this to be the end for this discussion ongoing..
There is another note:
"This was also done to encourage the use of special abilities, rather than just running and biting wildly."
This doesn't seem to have changed for the Carno, and leads me to believe that this speed is not the intended absolute end for the Carno vs Utah discussions, since this is, at this time, exactly what was supposed to have changed, and has not seemed to.
Maybe it's just player skill? Maybe it's something else, but it doesn't feel like anything has changed all to drastically on that front.

hollow canyon
#

It's not about the Carno vs Utah match up

#

The biting comment is more so about the Carno's match up with Tenonto

#

You currently absolutely have to land the charge on it to have a chance of killing it

#

Carno's ability to punch up has also been reduced significantly with this change as Carno cannot charge animals larger than itself because it ends up getting damaged and stunning itself if it hits something bigger. It has to rely on biting which has been nerfed by a lot.

#

Meanwhile the larger animals(Stego and Deino) received health buffs making them even more tanky against a Carno.

proud anchor
#

So, this makes the Utah the main source of food.. NotLikeThis

hollow canyon
#

Utah's match up against Carno hasn't changed... much - Carno still needs 3 bites to kill a Utah.

proud anchor
#

Not that it wasn't already... Lol.

hollow canyon
#

Well yea - Carno is a small game hunter and Utah just happens to be an example of "small game". Tenonto is on the menu as well

#

Although Tenonto will have the upper hand against a Carno unless the Carno can land the charge

proud anchor
#

Well, I feel like AI will alleviate these issues with the player-stress in regards to surviving. So, there is a very shiny silver-lining.
Diets are cool, but ultimately survivability increase, diets be damned, is the real takaway.
The cannibals are having a field day, because the Utahs are just unable to cope at the moment.
When you're a Carno, and there are no Utahs... The same, thing. Carnos turn to the smaller.
It's all just a very stressful situation in terms of scarcity.

#

Dies can be fun, and I'm not suggesting they have no place, but ultimately, the playerbase will be pushed into a much more accommodating space, when we're not strictly pitted against eachother for meals.

hollow canyon
#

In a way it might be quite the opposite - herbivores might finally have to start competing for the food with one another.

#

Which would be a really good thing for the game imo.

proud anchor
#

I can see that. All around, it's a very interesting situation, and there will be territory wars, both Herbivore, and Carnivore alike.
I just hope they overlap the Herbivore's diet locations with the Carinivores diet locations, because based on the streams, it really feels like they're "Placed" diets for Herbivores, in some very key locations. I just hope those patterns converge* a bit, to encourage tension between herbies and canivores.

hollow canyon
#

There will be a stress test first before the update comes out. The developers will rely heavily on the feedback from the community with regard to the diets as this is something that would be extremely difficult to balance out with a limited number of people available to them on the QA servers.

proud anchor
#

Right, as was mentioned, I heard.

hollow canyon
#

Therefore if you have interest in helping out with the balance I suggest that you participate in the stress testing. Initially it will be just Dryosaurus I believe but it will be at least a start and perhaps a point of reference for the other animals.

proud anchor
#

I'm fine with anything, as long as I'm supporting the cause.
While I have my concerns, I expect them to work themselves out once the devs have time away from creating these mechanics to have a hard-pass on the underlying nuance of some more key balancing and optimization issues.

#

I don't mind the difficulty of the Utah.
I just wish it weren't the only thing on the menu. KEKDOGE

ruby seal
#

If people don't want half the server to be apexes, then make reaching adulthood really difficult.

tacit oriole
#

Plus there is the spine hitbox, apparently, which let's two normal bites kill them. Haven't bothered trying to test all that

#

But two normal bites will kill a Utah more often than not in my limited experience

#

@solemn sequoia limited slots will never work unless we also get a Dino bank system that let's you have multiple on a server.

I don't have the figures, but I would guess for a server that hits 100 concurrent players there would be at least 400 total active players with dinos on it.

How do you limit player numbers? Do you prevent people rolling a new apex if there are X number currently active? That doesn't stop heaps getting made then all logging in at once. Do you stop them logging in at all of there is too many? Force them to make a new Dino?

Imagine getting home from school or work eager to play your elder rex you spent so long getting only be told "bad luck chump, you aren't allowed because others got in first". Then, of course, people who get can't get on early will never get to play some popular dinos because all the slots will always be taken by others who can get on earlier.

#

We don't need another game like Rust that punishes people with a life outside the game

#

It's absolutely an issue but it needs something far more sophisticated than limited slots

primal dove
#

@hollow canyonI agree with ur point that half of the server shouldn´t roam around as an apex but limited slots isn´t the solution

tacit oriole
#

Diets is really the only tool there is to limit numbers

#

It's working for deino, as crude as it is

#

The issue at the moment is food as a tool to limit population only really comes into effect when you hit full grown, which means you can get waaaay to many people growing and then just mass extinction when they all get full

#

Then everyone switches out of frustration, you get too few, then the whole cycle repeats

primal dove
#

I mean everyone played apexes in legacy literally bc they were way better than idk smth small like galli? So I´d just say make everything viable OR at least fun to play

tacit oriole
#

All we really need is a good diet system and more information given to players at the selection screen

#

If deino are overpopulated tell people before the spawn, don't make them find out when they are 3 hours into growing

#

Maybe a Dino bank system so if you hop on and there's too many of one you can play something else and balance it. Assuming it is exploit-proof

#

Maybe giving people an incentive to spawn as one of the under-represented species would help, kinda like some MMORPG use - faster growth, maybe

primal dove
#

yo I have an idea maybe make diet targeted food for apexes rare and hard to get so that if there are too many apexes they might just get weak cuz they don´t get the good food or get hurt in a fight for it and become prey to mid tiers or smalls packs

#

kinda like the strongest survives

tacit oriole
#

Because it only comes into effect when you are grown, not when you are growing

primal dove
#

but don´t u need the diet targeted food to stay healthy? Even as an adult?

tacit oriole
#

Yeah, but food only really becomes an issue as an adult

#

So you could have 30 baby deino and no issue

#

2 hours later 20 FG and they are all starving

#

Then a group goes on a huge killing spree to stop the rest eating all the food

primal dove
#

but if these 30 deinos don´t want to grow 8h to full adult and want to stay healthy or get even better stats then all of them will need the nutrients

tacit oriole
#

But those people don't know that there is too many

#

Until they have already spent hours and hours growing

primal dove
#

that means they either have to find a lot of prey or eat their own species

tacit oriole
#

Yes, but you understand why just limiting the food isn't enough? Why you need to warn people before they spawn that there won't be enough food for them when they get to adult?

primal dove
#

ohh yea that makes sense

tacit oriole
#

Some MMO/MMORPG have similar issues with balance between tank/healer/dps, they give incentives to people to roll the under-represented classes (E.G. Overwatch gives you extra currency)

#

I think the bigger the roster gets the bigger the problem will be, especially if carnivores are getting slotted into niches with specific prey - how do you make sure enough of said prey is playing?

alpine plover
tacit oriole
#

To not be janky or totally exploitable

#

Or basically a hacker

alpine plover
tacit oriole
#

Like I agree AI is an easy answer... Making good Turing comlpete AI isn't easy, however

#

They needed a supercomputer to do it for SC2

alpine plover
#

I mean the game is very early in development so obviously it’s gonna need more work

#

Ai isn’t gonna be good rn but later hopefully it will be

tacit oriole
#

I'd have more faith in it even being possible if I could think of another game where it had been done before... Even a big name big budget one

alpine plover
#

There’s a first time for everything then lol

#

I do see ai being a bit of a problem though

solemn sequoia
#

I'm not optimistic for the ai at all tbh, maybe have simple ai like ark where it's simple enough to populate the world but complex enough to know to run attack or stay neutral.

alpine plover
#

Yeah I don’t really need anything complex. Just enough so I know it’s not free food

solemn sequoia
#

To be fair legacy ai just had issues with its stats vs food yield, most ai were slower then all carnivores except certain juvis.

alpine plover
#

I mean they just had bad ai. Oro and taco aren’t meant to be food sources for stuff like apex’s and most mid tiers so that’s why. Ava was the only exception I thought was ok besides it didn’t attack

hollow canyon
#

As for Carno killing Utah with 2 alt bites - you actually have to come to a stop to use the alt bite so I don't think you will be running a Utah down and alt biting it unless the Utah in question is going after you in which case - yea you will only need 2 bites.

#

As for the apex slots - I'm probably one of the few people who do not care if half of any server runs around as apexes. I don't really care for that so I'm even more confused as to what you guys are referring to.

tacit oriole
hollow canyon
#

Oh, that explains it

tacit oriole
#

Was meant to be altercard.

#

I'll fix it

solemn sequoia
#

XD

#

To be honest just pitched the idea to get attention on the fact that servers on legacy are usually swarming with apexes, although it's nice to see how people took the slot idea and instead of bashing it proposed an alternative that the difficulty of diets would regulate apex population

#

(Actually so is evrima since deino is river apex and carno is currently land apex as carno has no equal carnivore on land you end up with the land and water apexez being a majority of the population)

barren oracle
#

with the spawn glitch its just utahs and herbis

solemn sequoia
#

Never had the spawn glitch so wouldn't know

barren oracle
#

its aweful

#

it either happens on server restart or on logging

solemn sequoia
#

Just remember a lot of carno calls and killing off a teno out of boredom on a good few deinos

barren oracle
#

i mean i can see a teno 1v2-ing carnos

#

and no one plays anything but free grows rn anyway xD

solemn sequoia
#

Depends, got a friend who ran around killing everything as a solo teno, carno packs and even stegos, he was really good at teno though XD

hollow canyon
#

You don't even have to be all that good with Tenonto to have some success with it, give it a try. I'm pretty awful with it and yet I've had some really nice success in my fights against Carnos.

solemn sequoia
#

Teno is a beast especially if you don't just sit there and be charge bait

tacit oriole
#

Yeah, teno is pretty OP atm if you manage your stam

tacit oriole
#

Diets should prevent any one species getting too out of hand but we need to inform players about the balance before they grow, not after

solemn sequoia
tacit oriole
#

It was worth making just to get the discussion going

#

I'm holding off on making one until diets settle in

worldly venture
dawn glade
#

Nerf utah

sinful cove
#

delet utah

tacit oriole
sinful cove
#

Utah knocking things a bit heavier than itself over with a broadside pounce after getting a running head start could be cool, ive kinda wanted broadside knockovers to be added to more animals for a while. Would also hope that pounce would get more locational sockets that punish or reward aiming and/or have different functionality on location

#

So a utah would have to aim for the side rather than being teleported to the side after pouncing the tail, similarly a tenonto kick or carno charge would benefit from hitting the broadside of an animal

tacit oriole
#

I'd like to see pounces be more or less effective based on the targets stance. If they are sprinting it should be easier to knock them over, for example

#

But that is some pretty complex animations

sinful cove
#

Yeah slamming into the side of a running theropod seems like a great way to knock it over especially even if its a bit above your weight class

#

Can be useful for a lot of dinos, both offensively and defensively

tacit oriole
#

A mechanic which takes more skill but gets better results is always a good thing imo

sinful cove
#

Also makes for much cooler and smoother combat, assuming this would be without the atrocious lag lol

tacit oriole
#

I think there would need to be a fair bit of core engine work done before stuff like that would work well, maybe in a few years

sinful cove
#

Yeah stuff like that could be super frustrating if its not well polished on release

#

Some day though, would be nice

tacit oriole
#

Would make even more sense for pachy

#

Something a bit sophisticated for whether target gets staggered or knocked flying

vestal gust
#

Well it wouldn’t pin per say, it would make more sense if it temporarily pinned. A heavier animal would still be able to get up and push something lighter than it off. Pachy would get knocked over and would probably take a second or two to start pushing the Utah off

sinful cove
#

It would be a knockdown that punishes the victim with a recovery animation yeah

#

Sort of like utah gets the recovery animation on misses

vagrant mural
#

Me pinning a dilo because I held the shift button TI_Troll

tawny sedge
#

Jesus, a full grown dryo AI isn't enough to fill a fully grown ptera, imagine for other carnivores like carno. The food upkeep is way too high.

barren oracle
true ginkgo
#

I like the slow eating.

But the amount of food required to fill up is far far too high.

#

like carno is specified as a small game hunter. and yet it will need like 20 dryos or so to even fill up.

#

playables shouldn't need to eat ther entire body weight or more to survive each in game day

sinful cove
#

Wasnt a big shallow river deino's primary issue in the first place?

primal dove
#

@gaunt spoke i´ve made a suggestion about a river/river system in #general-feedback here it is:

How about a VERY big river which cuts Isla Spiro in half so herbivores/or some carnivors on a migration might have to cross it if they want to get to their diet targeted food and run risk to get attacked from whatever horrors lurk down in the deep water? Maybe it doesn´t have to split whole Isla Spiro? Would also be cool so some carnivores can hunt their diet preffered food at a special spot where the river ends/starts. Something like lazy river on Isle V3 which cuts off a small part of the map but on the other side of it is highend diet food or plants which can give you temporar perks/buffs so you can choose risk it for the biscuit or staying where you are. Keep in mind that (if we talk about the river who cuts Spiro in half) this river is HUGE so it is impossible for deinos and spinos to cover the whole river. So it can be very risky but also really rewarding. Would also make aquatics/semi-aquatics more fun to play and help the horror aspect of the game. I mean your dino parents/friends can get snatched and get drowned from a deino at any second but on the other hand also not.

And to ur point that deino can´t kill larger things it actually can (carno/teno sub stegos) but can also be killed by larger things (stegos ffs). You can´t just go chompa chompa on everything.

gaunt spoke
#

thats not what I meant by not killing

#

I meant if a deino gets attacked it will just go in the water and survive

#

if a deino doesnt one shot out of water

primal dove
#

ohh yea

gaunt spoke
#

then the dino just runs away

#

so unless they want to fight

#

its not happening

primal dove
#

yea it´s not really viable with the rivers we have rn

gaunt spoke
#

shallow river is easy solution

#

or a drought system

stark knoll
#

we already have a shallow river

#

and droughts are planned

gaunt spoke
#

yes but its not a popular area

#

so whats the point

sinful cove
#

It is a pretty popular area rn wys

unborn iris
sinful cove
#

There's almost always some people there. People go to the shallows to drink and avoid deinos or to attack the ones attempting to cross

gaunt spoke
#

I just think the rivers are really 2d and boring

sinful cove
#

Yeah its kinda annoying that deinos have a water safe space but if its balanced to be shit on land and isnt punished for cannibalism then its relatively fine imo

#

Which it wont be, so deinos will still eat their own to shave the population a bit when the map is bigger and there are more water sources for players to drink from

gaunt spoke
#

Dont want to be a hater but the map just seems the same to me

#

as isla spiro v3

alpine sleet
#

what

sinful cove
#

They have a new map maker working on fixing the map

gaunt spoke
#

I think ther should be way less water sources

sinful cove
#

???

gaunt spoke
#

so dinos wouldnt be s spread out

sinful cove
#

That would make it MORE boring and make deinos more condensed

alpine sleet
sinful cove
#

And discourage terrestrials too

gaunt spoke
#

thats why it should be shallow

sinful cove
#

If there are more water sources deinos will be more spread out and players will have more places to choose from and wont need to ping pong across the whole fucking map to drink water and fulfill their diet at the same time

#

Having few water sources is an awful idea

gaunt spoke
#

Ok think about this

#

You walk into a huge lake

#

and see atleast half the server just vibing

#

in one place

sinful cove
#

They have diets to discourage that

gaunt spoke
#

ok then they migrate7

#

to a different big lake

sinful cove
#

Becaus eif you sit in one area, especially if it isnt where your diet is, you will be punished

gaunt spoke
#

thats why ther should b a few big lakes

sinful cove
#

There wont be a legacy twins lake in every biome for people to hotspot at

gaunt spoke
#

why

sinful cove
#

But there shouldnt only be a few watwr sources on the map

sinful cove
gaunt spoke
#

cuz twins was the fun

sinful cove
#

You said the map is boring but it seems you want no variety

gaunt spoke
#

I want big plains

#

not thses forests

sinful cove
#

There will be plains

meager oriole
#

TLDR?

sinful cove
#

And forests

gaunt spoke
#

i dont want forests

sinful cove
#

Also you want the whole island to he dead except 50 people crowded around a lake?

unborn iris
#

This IS plains.. I'm so confused with this. I feel like you've played Evrima for like 3 hours.

sinful cove
gaunt spoke
#

but no one is in the plains

meager oriole
#

thats a lie

sinful cove
#

Youll have to avid playing dinos whose food is in the forests or be punished for it

gaunt spoke
#

why cant the food be in the plains

sinful cove
sinful cove
#

It depends on what you are playing

unborn iris
#

There will be. Most of herbi bushes right now are in plains.

sinful cove
#

Some animals will want to eat plants that are in the plains and hunt animals in the plains

#

Some dinos are designed to be in the forest

gaunt spoke
#

forest is for growers

sinful cove
#

?????

gaunt spoke
#

and afkers

sinful cove
#

No??

gaunt spoke
#

yes

#

how do you find anyone in a forest

sinful cove
#

If you just afk in some bush youll be punished

gaunt spoke
#

stop saying punishe

meager oriole
#

Forest regions aren't intentionally for afk growers and juveniles

sinful cove
#

Why? Its what will happen

#

They plan on punishing people who do not play the way they are intended to

meager oriole
#

Forest regions are supposed to inhabit dinosaurs with niches fit to Forests

gaunt spoke
#

thats good

sinful cove
#

With lowered healing rates, night vision, growth rate etc

gaunt spoke
#

they need to add better scent if theres gonna be more forests

meager oriole
#

I do agree, the scent being so large now is... weh

sinful cove
#

If you do not follow your dino's intended playstyle you will suffer in these categories

meager oriole
#

Muscle Spasms are actually a pretty good way to counter those who sit around all the time

sinful cove
#

Well, not the hallucinations and paralysys shit i think thats venom

#

But idk it might be

gaunt spoke
#

they should decrease the player cap

meager oriole
#

Still have my fair share of feedback to what I've seen on diets personally

gaunt spoke
#

atleast 200

sinful cove
gaunt spoke
#

increase

sinful cove
#

We only have a part of the map unlocked rn

meager oriole
#

Such as, the meters go down too fast, you'll have to overeat and get sick to get more than 1 of the nutrients back to an at least not punishable percentage

sinful cove
#

Yeah it does seem to drain too fast

#

Hopefully thats just wip and its slowed down on release

#

Or itll be near impossible to have an actually good diet especially if you are stalled by being attacked

meager oriole
#

You also should still have freetime where you're not eternally hunting for diet food, cause no freetime means no time to actually play the game instead of its... rather grindy esque nutrition

sinful cove
#

Yeah it just becomes a chore if you have no time to actually enjoy the environment, nest, fight etc

meager oriole
#

I also think diets should be the last and only mechanic added to directly affect difficulty, and just let the game get more difficult naturally

gaunt spoke
#

did you guys play on official or private servers

sinful cove
#

Depends

meager oriole
#

there is such a thing as "too difficult" or "too complex"

sinful cove
#

Not really worth growing rn because of the bug so i usually do freegrow servers until thats fixed

meager oriole
#

making something more complex doesn't make it more fun, games in the past have taught us this

gaunt spoke
#

no before evrima

meager oriole
#

before evrima i just played wherever i felt like it so its a both

#

before 2019 i was mainly unofficials though

sinful cove
#

Depended on the mood tbh

#

As lobn as a server didnt have trash admins id go there

gaunt spoke
#

i used to play private but I realised how stupid the rules wer

sinful cove
#

Unless i just wanted to start drama

gaunt spoke
#

and you kept getting in chat wars

#

about who should get banned

sinful cove
#

I got slayed for drinking water while i had a body and the dumb ass admin refused to admit their mistake so those private servers were ass

gaunt spoke
#

and you had peopl paid to win

meager oriole
#

i went to where ever there were vcs

sinful cove
#

Yeah it wasnt worth growing any apex because youd just get hunted down by a full pack of credit card rexes

gaunt spoke
#

the admins are just cring on private servers they ar all on a crazy power trip

meager oriole
#

indeed

gaunt spoke
#

I remember I afk grew a rex for 8 hours

#

decide to walk on the beach

#

immediately get attacked by 3 acros

#

but

#

I had a re friend coming to save me

#

but guess what

#

There is some rule that you cant even join a fight

#

if you werent there wheen it happened

sinful cove
#

What do you mean teno doesn't have claws? Lmao

#

Claws on all four feet

image0.png image1.png
#

He isnt a hadro

neat forge
#

I meant not sharp enough to make good bleeding injuries with it at least it should Regen faster than a Carni claw

sinful cove
#

Its claws are definitely sharp enough to deal bleed with a kick from its legs, and its front claws are sharper than its back ones

#

Yes it shpuldnt deal as much bleed as a utah claw but it already doesnt

neat forge
#

I'm not talking about the front Claws but back and tail especially tail is a bit weird

sinful cove
#

If its tail is actually dealing bleed and you arent just mistaken then thats weird but its back claws arent strange dealing bleed

#

You dont need razor claws to part skin especially when they are backed by muscular limbs

neat forge
#

Yeah but it looks more like it would rather break the bone than make a high bleeding injury

sinful cove
#

I mean it can deal minor fracture and bleed

#

A lot of animals probably will

#

Shouldnt have to be only one or the other, like i can see some bites dealing some fracture+bleed as well

neat forge
#

I didn't meant to say only Carnis should deal bleed if you think that.
It was just a thought most likely because of the Tail slam and they can probably just balance it when the bone breaking gets in game so for example the kick just deals like 25% of bleed a Utah would but will break your bone idk seems a bit difficult to balance

#

Would be cool if you break your bone for example the foot you're not instantly slower because if you break your bone you have like 30 seconds to 1 min where you full of adrenaline to maybe safe your life

sinful cove
#

Fracture should scale with the size of the victim obviously, so a utah would suffer decent fracture but a carno wouldnt get much, but i still think it makes sense dealing some bleed because its basically getting kicked by a horse with claws

#

Negating broken bones with adrenaline would probably screw over animals who'll likely rely on bone break to win fights

#

Like both pachies, possibly rex if he is still an ambusher

#

If bone break only comes in to affect a minute after application it can spell death for whoever dealt it

#

Even 30 seconds can be a lot in a fight

neat forge
#

1 min was just an example it could be 10 seconds too

#

I mean for a Herbi it wouldn't change much if the Utah or Carno is dead or runs away before his mobility is completely f*cked

sinful cove
#

Idk, unless its exclusive to a couple dinos it just seems like it would screw over people who rely on bone break in combat, many of which are slower runners than average

sinful cove
#

Because they primarily use it for defense. Slow herbis like anky and pachyrhino, pachyceph who is slower than his predators

#

They will likely rely on disabling attackers asap

#

Since they wont be able to just flee normally

lament cloak
neat forge
#

Look at his Claws not teeth

lament cloak
#

it does bleed with its bite

neat forge
#

And don't ping me when the conversation is already over

lament cloak
#

thats kinda how it works

neat forge
#

You don't have me to ping me for that bruh

#

Just write it in and that's it

lament cloak
#

how else am I supposed to get you in here to discuss?

#

wait for 10 hours?

#

I think ill just ping, sounds simpler

sinful cove
#

i hope ceratopsian beaks deal bleed and fracture too

lament cloak
sinful cove
#

tes his spikes arent as sharp as a katana so clearly they can not deal bleed, good thinking

proud anchor
#

Full grown raptor pinning a Carno at 75% growth..
K..? I mean, guess I'll play Raptor, then.

unknown.png
#

450Kgs pinning 800Kgs... Something doesn't seem right.

ocean wagon
#

is this an old screenshot from before the latest patch?

proud anchor
#

This was just now

#

Like.. I spent an Hour and 30min growing a Carno, for a Utah (which is grown to full in an Hour and 10min) to get a one-shot kill.

dawn falcon
#

Oh, fun fact, it may not have been 800kg then

#

Weight scaling with growth is weird rn. You don’t normally surpass 700-800kg till you’re an adult.
It may have been a sub adult likely, but that’s still weird

proud anchor
#

I mean, the size disparity alone tells me the numbers are in a bad place.

sinful cove
#

tenonto is a brawler, carno is not

proud anchor
lament cloak
#

@proud anchor I see a massive flaw in your reasoning here, yes carno turns like a truck and teno turns like a dime, yes teno has a massive tail. the difference is that carno runs at the speed of a car, and teno has 4 legs. you have no idea the wonders 4 legs will do for in it terms of manuverability. though yeah, teno should probably be slowed down a little bit on its turning speed

sinful cove
#

tenonto is made to fight and carno is made to ambush as well

lament cloak
sinful cove
#

tenonto HAS to fight its predators, carno can easily make distance, wallow and move on

proud anchor
#

I still think it's turn rate is far too quick for it's size, 4 legs aside, those front claws could be made to recover from a slide easier, but the current state is that it's tail is essentially a surgical tool, where it should be the last line of defense.
I'd say buff the stamina use, and allow it to use less stam per attack with its tail, but the insane benefit of the control of this is a little over-tuned, even if it is a brawler.

#

It already has the benefit of it being a cone of attack [not a cone aoe, but a cone of where the attack can land] (Dust cloud is where the attack lands) and it's not always tied [directly] to the tail ['s model], so it can also be used as a faint to the left or right, as well.

#

I feel like the proposed change, at the discretion of the developers ofc, could limit it's insane power, without breaking the dino all-in-all.

soft haven
proud anchor
#

Wat? Did you record it?

soft haven
#

No I was too stunned. I was walking in some brush and a stego popped out and got me with their tail and it was a solid KO. thing wasn’t that big either

#

I was also at 100% health haha

proud anchor
#

I watched my boy fight 5 full-grown stego, and held his own for quite some time.
That's something you really have to have a binding to record for when it happens. That sounds insane, but I can't really sus anything from a personal testimony alone, which was why I at least caught a screenshot.

#

I'll be setting up record for the future now that I'm playing much more often for these reasons.

soft haven
#

Oh yeah that’s valid. It’s 2:30am here and as soon as it happened I just logged off. Four hours down the drain for a baby stego one shot

proud anchor
#

Right, it's about setting up "Record Last X Min" situation, so you have something to send to the feedback channels, or #🐞-evrima-bug-reports-🐞 if applicable.

soft haven
#

Yee. Now that I know I’m gonna do that from now on haha

proud anchor
#

We can only help so much by bitching, ya know? KEKDOGE
To really help, we need to provide sustenance, so we don't come off as just noobish nobodies that are making up stories.
Devs need data, reproduction methods, possible proof through testing, and sofourth.
That's wild, and I'm sorry to hear that, but unless it's proved and replicatable, it's hard to say what actually happened.
In my case, I was told "You were not X weight cause bug" but I was using a very recent spreadsheet that shows the accurate values at each stage.
Now, if those values don't represent the actual information on the stats end, that is a whole different problem in it's own, and this could be investigated more thoroughly if that kind of information is provided.
We're all striving to make the game better in our own ways, even if they're hot takes sometimes.
But we're all passionate. I would like to see the issue you saw be addressed, but this is not so simple as conjecture alone solving it.

Not speaking to your credibility alone, but a general grandstanding against the constant discussions and bickerings among the community at large.
This just allowed me an outlet to say so.

spare badger
#

Teno should be able to turn quick
It's a quadraped
And can also easily lift it's front limbs
It's also a brawler
Carno turns like a bus cause its really fast
If the teno doesn't the carno it's fucked
That's the point of charge

#

Making teno easier for carnos to kill is dumb
Especially since charge is much more effective now

sinful cove
#

i swear whenever there's an herbivore who can have the upper hand in a fight people want it nerfed lol

spare badger
#

Yea

#

I'm excited for Utah mains to complain that they die when they pounce on a kentros spikes instead of teleporting to its face

alpine plover
#

I don't mind strong herbies

#

Just never again sniper trikes hitboxes and anime galli's from legacy

sinful cove
#

machine gun galli was hilarious but yeah that was just busted especially because it looked comical

#

trike was also trash and hitboxes were busted on a lot of dinos

#

like gigas bit me when i was 4 yards behind them

sinful cove
#

How should we make the game harder? Should we have planes that sometimes show up out of nowhere and rain fire on random peoples' dinos? Should we have mosquitos that can give you disease that require a whole storymode level quest series to cure while also juggling diets? Should we make it so you have to use buttons to breathe manually or your oxygen meter constantly drains and you die?

Your suggestion can mean basically anything

midnight moat
#

Sooo am i the only one who finds it weird you can be drinking from the water and you just got Herbivores coming up to you and kills you for absolutely no reason i honestly think there gotta be some sort of rules not just go and mass kill other creatures for no reason cus it's kinda boring to just be drinking water or eaten and you got Tenos or Stegos running up to you and kills you

neat forge
hollow canyon
#

It's not weird at all imo. You have to beware of any players while drinking or eating.

unborn iris
#

Oh these herbis are in for an awakening when diets start making them compete.

primal dove
midnight moat
#

i did a count and it doesn't even take 1 second for a stego to swing their tail and recover

primal dove
midnight moat
#

as since it's tail is that powerful it's hard go in for an attack without getting hit 3 times

proud anchor
primal dove
#

nope.

proud anchor
#

Like, no matter the case, the game stutters so much when you look at one.

midnight moat
#

No but i've noticed how almost every Teno/Stego player just go on a massive rampage

proud anchor
#

Only Carnos tho, Tenos, no issue..

#

Oh for real. Lol. Herbie genocide, they're untouchable.

midnight moat
#

burh for real am i the only one who see Teno/Stego players go on rampages often or what ?

proud anchor
#

"Nerf herbies because they're powerful"
Get real. How often do you see full grown herbie bodies? Ever?

midnight moat
proud anchor
midnight moat
#

The only body i legit find are Croc bodies because you got Stegos just hunting them down on sight

#

SMH

primal dove
primal dove
midnight moat
proud anchor
#

Hey hey, Carnivores are exactly where they need to be, weak and pitiful.

primal dove
midnight moat
#

like i don't see any immersion in the game as it is right now because Herbivores legitimately are that powerful they can go on massive rampages and no one can do anything

primal dove
midnight moat
#

like cmon i was playing with a friend we're 2 full grown carnos we see 2 tenos WE gotta bloody run because 2 full adult carnos can't even kill 2 Tenos -.-

midnight moat
#

how the fuck are you as a carno or Deino player goin to kill anything when you got stegos swinging the waters with their tail as others go for a drink

primal dove
midnight moat
#

i'm a deino main because i find that game play the most interesting

primal dove
#

same goes with teno except tHeY aRe hErBiVorEs. But they still overpack often but everyone does that so that´s not a solid point.

midnight moat
#

if i were to play Utah bruh nothing exciting is goin happen..

primal dove
#

solo yes in a pack definitely NOT but rn u can´t even kill sub adults in a pack, well u can but there always are 10 other herbies around who fuck up ur whole existence. Glad diets will fix that
hopefully

midnight moat
#

if i play as a carno i struggle to find food cus i can't kill anything cus a baby can't find a tiny lone pray

#

hell no

#

a god damn Sub adult deino or Carno struggles to even fight another sub or juvi Stego

#

2 hits you down down

#

you go for attack the tail can hit you at least 2 times before you can run away

#

yeah but how is the diet system gonna fix Stego and Utahs and Tenos mix packing together ?

primal dove
#

u have to bait swings and get some bleed on so it can´t heal its stam

midnight moat
primal dove
#

also carno isn´t really made to kill stegos. Played carno once and i just charged tenos over and over again till they ran and then I went for the kill

primal dove
midnight moat
#

see that's what i don't understand

primal dove
#

stack it and it can´t regen stam

golden coral
midnight moat
#

why do we they add a herb but no carnivore that can actually match it

primal dove
#

but as i said again it isn´t really made to kill stegos especially solo

golden coral
#

Because they made some not ideal decisions when it came to adding stego :p

primal dove
midnight moat
#

like why add a powerful Stego but not really a Carnivore that actually matches

mighty knot
midnight moat
#

Devs be like

primal dove
#

an utah shouldn´t solo a stego neither should a carno but a pack definitely

golden coral
#

Problem is, if you buff the carnis, then you'd have to buff the herbis again to keep the power balance, no? :p

mighty knot
#

^

unborn iris
#

The only reason utahs don't shit on stegos is because of server stability and desync/latency compensation the game uses.

golden coral
#

The issue is that stego, properly balanced, just isn't a good prey item for current carnis except utah packs, which can and do kill even adult stegos, barring utahs other issues currently

midnight moat
#

Let's add a Apex Herbivore and add a beta Carnivore that can't match nor fight the Herbivore

golden coral
#

Then you got deino, which has it's own biome and is even more untouchable than stego as long as it plays correctly

mighty knot
#

yeah deino is untouchable for basically anything

#

but

primal dove
mighty knot
#

going out of your way to fight things as deino is how you die

midnight moat
#

If you add a damn Herbivore into a dino game at least add something that can actually kill it without struggling for 20 minutes

mighty knot
#

deino is just so localized that honestly I don't see it as a problem

golden coral
#

It's not so much of a problem vs the others, more so that it's just well, it fears very little

midnight moat
#

as it right now if you get a stego to full Adult you're legitimately a god

mighty knot
#

scariest thing for a deino is the water

golden coral
#

Sure, deino is localized, but that's not an ideal excuse for not having other things to fear than it's own

#

You could ague the same for stego then, especially with diets, where it's greatest challenge might be another adult stego

primal dove
#

organized utahs can kill stegos yes but there are no solo stegos and if and as i mentioned the stego has way too little blood loss while having 1000 of options to counter them.

golden coral
#

After all, a stego isn't going to chase you down

mighty knot
#

that's a great point actually

golden coral
#

You die to a stego, you.. kind of have yourself to blame for that one in most cases

mighty knot
#

even as a deino usually yeah

golden coral
#

They're the worst critter in the game for going on the offense with

mighty knot
#

it's still fking annoying that a stego walks up and owns the river

#

as a deino

golden coral
#

Map design issues, and well, the pond.. :p

mighty knot
#

yeah

golden coral
#

But I honestly can't feel sorry for anyone dying at the pond

mighty knot
#

it's mostly a map design thing

midnight moat
golden coral
#

It's a survival game.. and if you can't see that area for the deathtrap it is, then that's on you

primal dove
golden coral
mighty knot
#

deino still has hitbox issues

#

because this is the isle

#

they made legacy too

#

hitboxes are not even on the radar for them

midnight moat
golden coral
primal dove
golden coral
#

Eh, I can agree that stegos runtime could be a bit lower

#

Not sure why it can run for so long

midnight moat
#

like it's so annoying

mighty knot
#

camping the body will be less viable with diets

#

where really staying in one place for longer than it takes a utah to starve isn't an option

midnight moat
#

my question is still the same

neat forge
mighty knot
#

they do ^^

midnight moat
#

how is Deit gonna stop stego from packing with Utahs and vise versa

#

how is the diet system gonna stop mix packing a

mighty knot
#

people are realizing teno is strong now too

unborn iris
#

Most of the balance problems in the game come from desync. I would be interested in average pings on servers for players. I would almost guarantee you there's a lot of players with high pings, I've even seen people in US playing EU because they can play fine with high ping.

mighty knot
#

it's not just big groups of stegos fishing for deinos like it was right when update 3 dropped

alpine valley
#

You guys think diets will make it easier to grow for herbs or carnis?

mighty knot
#

now it's big groups of tenos and carnos

unborn iris
#

It's the game latency compensation that causes the desync. If you have 300 ping you are seeing stuff on your screen completely different than people with low ping. But when you bite something on your screen it actually counts it as a hit.

golden coral
#

And go to different areas

mighty knot
#

I can consistantly hit stegos as a deino in certain places

#

like legacy

#

and vice versa

#

let me just send the clip in my suggestion from a while back

#

when upd 3 dropped

#

this is still recreatable

#

me and my friend tested it to see if they fixed it

primal dove
#

that´s what i mean about the shitboxes

midnight moat
#

how in the name are you supposed to get an attack in

primal dove
#

and then u have to feel bad for dying to it. great.

midnight moat
# mighty knot

bruh the rapid swinging where's the so called Delay People keep saying it has

golden coral
mighty knot
#

oh yeah if you look straight 90 as a stego and rmb the tail teleports back to it's starting position

#

you can hit a little faster than once a second with it

primal dove
mighty knot
#

stego's just sealing it's own fate

midnight moat
mighty knot
#

another good point ^^^

golden coral
mighty knot
#

fighting anything for that long right now is kinda a death sentence

unborn iris
#

Bite doesn't cause bleed unless it's a head shot.

neat forge
midnight moat
mighty knot
#

utah pounce bleed is broken rn

midnight moat
#

that's what i'm saying if anyone get's a stego to full adult

#

you are a god

mighty knot
#

I'm very glad they don't tank hits from stuff now

midnight moat
#

cus nothing can nor will kill you

mighty knot
#

rats deserve to be cautious

unborn iris
#

They've already aknowledged a lot of these issues, we'll see how the changes go.

golden coral
mighty knot
#

but yeah

#

2 utahs pouncing a carno multiple times doesn't do jack shiz to their blood pool

golden coral
mighty knot
#

it's pretty awful right now

golden coral
#

Considering how fast I've seen carnos drop from bleed pounce, I'm not sure on that one Viper

primal dove
# golden coral Utahs bite is meant to kill small things/keep bleed open on big things these day...

I know about that (don´t pretend like im a dumbass pls) but how are u going to pounce/get the bleed on it if it just stands in a palm tree. And even if u get the bleed on the fights take soooooooo long there will ALWAYS come someone else to either steal ur kill or more probably kill ur pack. Ok u probably shouldn´t attack a stego which does the things mentioned above. But if u get some pounces in (and u get dropped off in 2s) and it just goes into a palm bush it kinda breaks the game.

golden coral
#

It's more so that it's pure bleed and it takes a bit to set in

midnight moat
mighty knot
#

last I've seen it's near useless

golden coral
#

Are we talking full pounces or being bucked off for that matter? But even with being bucked off, a few of those pounces still does a good deal

golden coral
mighty knot
#

I'm talking bucking, it costs nearly no stam right now right?

#

or does it really quickly ramp up with more than one on you

#

since being pounced by a single utah is so little of a threat

unborn iris
#

Bad carno runs around with bleed and dies faster. Good carno just chills near a wallow spot so doesn't bleed much and forces the utahs to keep engaging to stop him from wallowing.

midnight moat
#

like Stegos in this current state is not killable and adding to that fact that the legitmately only herbivore you see people playing are Stegos mainly to the fact THEY

mighty knot
#

you just press the win button and it has to run

midnight moat
#

Cant

#

Die

golden coral
midnight moat
#

which makes it really damn hard for a carnivore to kill something and eat

unborn iris
#

With diets the stego won't be able to just chill in bushes for extended periods of time. He will just be weakening himself for you.

#

So maybe another problem solved, we will see.

golden coral
#

Well, with diets I imagine you'd see a lot fewer adult stegos, especially if it's properly hard for an apex as it should be

mighty knot
#

yeah

golden coral
#

Especially if they keep the somewhat.. strange growth scale :p

midnight moat
mighty knot
#

or the devs pull the same stuff they usually do

#

and the entire system is a bust until the next update

#

4 months later

golden coral
# midnight moat lol how come ?

Something about being very low weight/damage for like 90% of your life and only gaining your power at the very end, or so I've heard

mighty knot
#

it's like that with deino

#

you don'

#

t

#

get your stats until around 80% or so

golden coral
#

In any case, I'd rather keep stegos power, make it hard to grow, and make it dangerous to meet more than one other adult stego, just like how deinos should also be hard to grow and not really come in more than pairs (barring juvies).

unborn iris
#

Carno is pinnable at 60%. So that's like <450kg out of it's total 1800 at 60%. Starts ramping up pretty good after 75% or so.

midnight moat
mighty knot
#

I would love a world where simply by the difficulty (not luck) of growing Deino and Stego

#

they would be a rare sight

primal dove
# golden coral The whole standing in a cluster of trees is a bit dumb yes, it'll probably get c...

np. My fights personally took 25-30min in a pack of 9 which im completely fine with if there wouldn´t always someone come to interupt the fight (I did the fights on a private server while being in a VC just talking about survival scenarios rn) . Just hoping the bleed loss gets a buff cuz u can still get some full pounces if 1 utah baits out swings while others pounce it (an experienced pack would do that). Pounce just doesn´t feel rewarding and is still risky.

mighty knot
#

bleed needs to take away stam

#

that solves

#

SO MANY issues

golden coral
#

It does slow stam and health regen

#

So there is that

mighty knot
#

never even noticed it did crap to stam regen

unborn iris
#

i disagree with that. Blood loss already has a pretty big effect. Directly reducing stam would be so OP.

midnight moat
golden coral
mighty knot
#

increasing stam costs I think is what im trying to say

unborn iris
#

Then you haven't bled much. Low blood pool hurts stam regen pretty bad.

golden coral
#

Might be valuable to hunt a stego in a certain biome as utahs cause less carnos there, and so on

unborn iris
#

I think the thresholds are 70% 50% and 30% blood pool. You get 25% less at each point. So 30% blood you're only regenning 25% of your normal stam.

midnight moat
#

i just feel like the bleeding effect isn't such a big game changer atm

unborn iris
#

BEen a while since that was scienced though.

mighty knot
#

I personally never even noticed it fighting

golden coral
neat forge
mighty knot
midnight moat
#

for example you bite someone over and over and all the bleeding should get worse and worse so the more wounded you get the more you bleed/the weaker you get

primal dove
# midnight moat Bleed should drain stam or health and bleed should stack so the worse the bite/w...

not health. Stam definitely but really really slow and health should only start once u reach like 85% blood loss and also should be reeeeally slow just so that if the victim has lost health until it reaches a certain threshold it might die so that herd/pack-mates can´t gather around it and wait till it wakes up again. Made a suggestion for a bleed rework if u lose 100% u collapse btw (if we talk about my suggestion).

golden coral
#

Originally bleed was meant to affect stamina I think

#

Not sure what happened with that, and why we have the current system

mighty knot
midnight moat
#

well i mean blood loss should be able to cause death or passing out so it actually makes sense to track someone after you wounded them..

golden coral
#

Only problem I can see if it takes stam is that attacks require stam, so then you'd just .. sit there and wait to die possibly

#

Which would not be fun for the prey I guess

unborn iris
#

Bleed definitely works the way it is. Anything more would be OP as hell and like Erik said, require a complete rework.

midnight moat
golden coral
#

You can bleed out, so you can and do kill with bleed

mighty knot
#

it's not much more fun for the predator knowing that moving your blood pool to any other place but 0 isn't fatal

primal dove
mighty knot
#

and you reserve full capability of defense until the point where you drain all your stam

golden coral
unborn iris
#

The balance is a little off, it seems. And supposedly there are other things that affect blood regen that are supposedly overtuned right now.

golden coral
#

Not that I disagree that you should try to avoid a fight, it's survival, but still :p

mighty knot
#

you are no less difficult to fight until you are both out of stam AND heavily bleeding

golden coral
#

And people do want to fight, most do not play herbi, because herbi is less about fighting

#

Hence why carni is so much more popular

#

Not ideal for an ecosystem :p

mighty knot
#

carnis should be much less common

#

but should also be strong enough to survive in an environment full of herbis

#

much more difficult to play

golden coral
mighty knot
#

but more capable of fighting

golden coral
#

You'd easier run out of stam and then be more vunerable

unborn iris
#

That's kind of a dumb statement. Carnis should contend with herbi packs, but somehow stop everyone from just picking the OP carnis.

#

There's a reason why herbis are more populous atm.

mighty knot
#

tenonto is kinda just better than carno

unborn iris
#

100% correct.

mighty knot
#

in literally every way

golden coral
unborn iris
#

Except you can avoid teno if you want.

mighty knot
#

it's even better for traversing the map

midnight moat
primal dove
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@mighty knot here is my idea about a bleed rework also posted this in #balance-feedback

Idea for the new bleed since it´s nowhere near the one described in the roadmap: You can stack bleed with attacks/special abilities ,for example 1 carno bite fills ur blood drop to lets say 5%. The stages of bleed are the following: Blood drop filled to 50%: You slowly REALLY SLOWLY start losing stamina and your stamina regeneration is also REALLY SLOWLY slowed . Blood drop filled to 75%: Your speed decreases slightly and you start taking damage over time. (2 times slower than starving/dehydrating).Blood drop filled to 100%: You collapse and stay unconcious for a decent amount of time (5 minutes maximum).

If you have reached a certain threshold of your hp you also might die because of the bleed damage.

The lower your stamina is the faster you lose blood since your heart has to pump more oxygen through your blood and body to keep your organs and limbs healthy and functioning. (You can leave that one out if you think it is too broken.)

The bleeding damage should just be a safe lock so that herds or pack members can´t just merge around a collapsed target and defend it until it wakes up. That´s why it starts later so you can´t just bleed out things after you got some bites in like in legacy.

Locational damage should also affect how much bleed you lose.

Remember, it shouldn´t be like in legacy where you just get some bites in and bleed your target out, stamina drain should be really really slow and give teno ,for example which heavily relies on stamina, a time window to fight its attackers and if it doesn´t use that time window well, then it´s doomed.

Overall the bleeding system would impact active combat more instead of it being just a problem you´ll have to deal later with.

I know bleeding might be too OP with this but the blood system we have right now is way too simple to be useful for active combat in my opinion.

golden coral
neat forge
mighty knot
primal dove
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:3

golden coral
primal dove
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U can kinda shift numbers there to balance things out but i just wanted to share my overall idea

mighty knot
golden coral
neat forge
mighty knot
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^

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they literally win in a 1v1 with anything that isn't deino

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and can fight off multiple utahs

midnight moat
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for something that could spend 20 min to hours hunting for food and tracking it down it should also have a balanced food drain to make up for those long hours of hunting cus right now i feel like if you don't find any food under 16 minutes as carnivore you're dead

mighty knot
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and even multiple carnos if they aren't competent

midnight moat
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and sometimes it can take at least 1 hour for you to track something you can kill

golden coral
primal dove
midnight moat
mighty knot
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and they retreat back to the wall of invulnerable stegos if they end up in a bad situation

golden coral
golden coral
neat forge
golden coral
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Stegos are very powerful currently, but I suspect more people would still play teno

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Because for all of their power, teno is still better at actively going out there and hunt stuff

mighty knot
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just waiting for cera to be an actually adept mid tier brawler

golden coral
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Barring the whole deino-fishing at pond (which is on the deinos really...)

mighty knot
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capable of facing tenonto

midnight moat
golden coral
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But if you want to go around and fight and have fun, teno is by far a better choice than stego

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Despite stegos power

midnight moat
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in other ways the game needs some heavy balance between the dinosaur's

mighty knot
primal dove
golden coral
neat forge
midnight moat
golden coral
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I imagine stego would be less popular if we did not have the shallows/pond and other similar bottlenecks where they can get deinos

mighty knot
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herbis just gotta be bad at offense compared to carnis

golden coral
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Deterrents don't work well in this game in most cases

mighty knot
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giving tenonto triple the stam of carno, a lot of speed, utah's turn speed, less grow time than carno, and an attack comparable in power to stego, with CC abilities to doubly screw your opponent

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that's a little much

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for a low tier herbi

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that as far as I know is intended to be a prey item for midtier carnis like allo

golden coral
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Yeah, teno is a little overtuned, though it's by far better now than before :p

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Though I'm pretty sure teno will just get shat on by an allo, even carno can do it and it's a small game hunter

mighty knot
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yeah a competent carno can screw up a tenonto

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i'll argue tenonto is harder to use in a fight than carno

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not by much

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but generally I think hitting attacks is a bit harder

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not saying it's hard, you turn at utah speed so it's not like lining up an attack is of any issue

neat forge
mighty knot
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im still in the boat that cerato needs to be the most powerful carni until allo and what not

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it's made to be a bulky brawler capable of falling back on long dead kills if it's life goes wrong

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a brawler easily capable of standing up to tenonto

cedar shore
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@neat forge I love playing utah but, no.

primal dove
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ok veeeery important question. Should a carno knock down a cera with a charge? (if yes it should stand up a little faster than utah or basically anything else that gets knocked down). Think that would kinda balance the matchup, if the carno gets too cocky and goes into a brawl it would get teared apart but on the other hand if the cera doesn´t respect the charge it also woulnd´t have a nice time. Would also maybe encourage players to play carno more like an ambush predator instead of a chompa chompa brawler.

mighty knot
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I would say stunned

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carno doesn't knock another carno down does it?

primal dove
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yea

golden coral
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Not sure

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Sometimes it looks like it does, sometimes it does not :p

mighty knot
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I think it just stumbles

primal dove
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they both get stunned

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wasn´t cera going to have a lot of health?

mighty knot
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it's bulky for it's size

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it better have more health than carno and teno

golden coral
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Not sure if it should have to be honest

mighty knot
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maybe not like a massive margin

golden coral
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More so either adding slightly less damaging hitboxes, and give it great agility, so it can really brawl

mighty knot
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but it should take a cera less hits to kill a carno than vice versa

golden coral
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As long as the difference is only one or two bites, sure

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We don't want ceras facetanking carnos or tenos and think nothing of it either