balance-feedback-discussion

[dawn falcon]

Large enough to be considered large game

[alpine plover]

its around the size of the green stego here

pretty small

[dawn falcon]

What

[alpine plover]

what?

[dawn falcon]

A sub adult stego, even on the character chart, shows it to be hella close to an adult in size

In game

[golden coral]

So maybe inbetween then?

[dawn falcon]

Aye

[alpine plover]

size charts aren’t accurate

in game

[golden coral]

But what constitutes small, medium, big game is, I think, a bit subjective

So keep that in mind when you're trying to sort things out

[alpine plover]

Size charts are inaccurate for stego/carno/teno

[dawn falcon]

Got a source for that?

😁

[alpine plover]

play the game

[dawn falcon]

I did

My opinion hasn’t changed

[alpine plover]

not enough

play it more

[dawn falcon]

Okay since you won’t prove it

My point still stands

[alpine plover]

The size difference between a 100% carno and a 75% carno is clear

Anyone can notice that

[dawn falcon]

Yeah it still feels like it’s accurate to the chart

So idk what you’re saying

[alpine plover]

Unless you’re being contrarian for the sake of it

[alpine plover]

it really isnt

Fresh sub adult carno is juvie size

[dawn falcon]

We’ll

You still aren’t proving

It

You’re just saying what you think, which is what I’ve also been saying this whole time

So my point still stands

[alpine plover]

we can simply agree to disagree

[dawn falcon]

Mhm

[alpine plover]

since Im not going to grow a carno for 2 hours just for this argument

Bye, good night

[dawn falcon]

Gday

[teal pecan]

how

[hollow canyon]

It's really cute to look at people asking for a buff to the most powerful and best animal in the game. It really is.

If there was a queue of animals that needed a buff Deino should be at the very end of the line.

Animal's borderline broken-level of good and to think that it's still somehow not good enough for people. Not to mention the whole thing with being weak to Utahs - Deino doesn't care about Utahs one bit. They are about as capable of killing one as Dryos. Their best bet would be to catch it on land and prevent it from getting back into water and killing it via dehydration because their chances of either bleeding it out or killing it with damage are close to 0 as long as Deino isn't completely garbage.

[digital glacier]

😭 😭 😭 😂 🧂

I mean both of you are right, but itll never turn out favourfull for any of us..

[digital glacier]

But the " " Guy is right. Our Stego ingame is a smaller stego. Ive read it a while ago. Its not like the largest stego. Armatus is the largest i guess. And the one we have definetly isnt a big one

[hollow canyon]

To my knowledge the Stego we have in the game is based on Stegosaurus ungulatus which is the largest specimen of Stegosaurus that we have available.

[wheat field]

Stegosaurus Armatus is the larger specimen

[cedar shore]

stego is stego for like 99.9% of players lol

[wheat field]

Pretty much

Armatus is usually what a lot of people mean when they imagine stego however

[hollow canyon]

Stegosaurus "armatus" is the first name given to the animal. I'm not sure if it's universally considered to be valid nowadays.

The largest specimen is S.ungulatus iirc

[grave veldt]

ungulatus is still the largest specimen

for now atleast

[hollow canyon]

As for the feedback there - it might also be down to Deino's bite socket being rather large, if just a part of it clips through the headhitbox it will land a headshot.

[grave veldt]

this right here look

most def a body shot but still gets the head

[soft girder]

@hardy dirge Mono too

[sinful cove]

Mono wasnt confirmed venomous was it

The third venomous animal planned was megalania i believe?

[vagrant mural]

Correct

Mono was originally planned to be the venomous guy but dilo took over that role

[soft girder]

So mono is just going to be Bleed and not venom?

[vagrant mural]

No idea

[sinful cove]

The devs have already said they want good weapons/ammo to be hard to find from what i've heard

So no mercs riding around in tanks spraying machine gun fire on herds and blowing rexes up with grenade launchers left and right

[slim dragon]

People still believing mercs will be playing call of duty...

They should play Metro, they'll understand what a good survival game means with weaponry and ammo

[granite gate]

eh its better that people are worried that it will be like cod rather than worried that it won't be like cod

[slim dragon]

True

[hollow canyon]

The thing about that picture is that you'd have to be certain that that's the damage frame of the animation. I will try to test it a bit if I get access to a test server but with how the game works it's very likely that it hit a headshot because at a given point a miniscule part of the head hitbox was covered by the bite socket.

[gentle swan]

Honestly imo the fact there will be humans makes the entire game ridiculous. Is this primal carnage?

[stark knoll]

humans have been planned from the start

[vagrant mural]

I mean like maybe 1% of it is, it’s complicated and I don’t need to into it right now

[gentle swan]

More like several years ago. The game is perfect without them.

[lament cloak]

wdym more like several years ago? the start WAS several years ago

plus there will be servers that disable humans

[vagrant mural]

^

If you don’t like humans, play on a server without them

[hollow canyon]

The game was initially meant to be playable only from the human perspective iirc.

[alpine plover]

if they didn’t add humans the game would legitimately be a scam not sure why people bitch so hard about it

[marble pond]

I don't understand people who try argue whether or not humans should be in the game. It's OK to argue about whether it's good or bad design to have all these different elements, you can argue that it muddies the water or that it shifts the focus away from your dino game, but you can't argue whether they're coming to the game or not.

They've been promised and advertised for years on the front page of Steam and the game's website. The development team has sunk loads of time and money into them (and still is). They've hired their own freaking human level designers for the game so that they can finally deliver on this most ancient promise of this massive addition to the game's narrative and mechanics. Most importantly, the game's creative director wants them to be in the game, so they will be. Full stop.

The fact is, The Isle was never planned to just be a bird bath simulator with combat and some survival elements sprinkled in. There's an entire narrative to this game that you're missing out on. Try to open up, y'all.

[sinful cove]

being punished for missing a pounce is fair, it is unfair to the target you are pouncing if your mistakes are unpunished

pounce shouldn't be low risk, if you miss an attack that literally sockets you to your target's side when you pounce their neck or tail then the target has full right to have the chance to eliminate you

[stone oak]

#balance-feedback message
removal of the rooting (disabling movement of player) post-mispounce but addition of a cooldown to the pounce to prevent spamming? maybe slight increase to stamina cost? full disclosure i've never played utah so I can only attempt to look at this from a game mechanics perspective. rooting is detractive to the 'feel' of game controls under most circumstances.

[sinful cove]

There is no need to remove the stun for missing a socketed attack. Utah should be able to jump a safer distance when voluntarily dismounting before it spends too much stam or is bucked off, but when you are hunting things that took longer than you to grow and raptors are more often than not in a group, your quarry deserves the window to kill an incompetent hunter who missed a pounce or was knocked off

[granite gate]

cooldowns dont feel very dynamic tho imo, also the game's pvp is mainly based on "are you dead or is the enemy dead" -- a herbi only wins when the carnis after it have died. i have never personally experienced carnis backing off even after half their pack is dead in a hunt

[sinful cove]

Giving pounce a cd also means very little when utahs are in packs

[granite gate]

so just making pounce "ooh cooldown so longer fight" doesnt give a smart herbi much chance to kill off a dumb utah

[sinful cove]

The person being hunted deserves the ability to punish its attackers for their mistakes

[granite gate]

^

ive said it before and ill say it again............. attacking should be 10x harder than defending

[sinful cove]

The person who has the speed advantage should have a harder time in the melee

[granite gate]

yes, realism sucks balance-wise sometimes, but in this case it would be nice if herbis actually had some kind of content in playing them beyond "eat bush and die to a 8-count utah pack"

[sinful cove]

Since they can choose to disengage at any time

[granite gate]

a herbi should be able to survive multiple battles imo, the highest risk should always be on the carnis since they're the ones choosing to engage

and yeh

[sinful cove]

Yeah there really is no reason to play herbi when your predators are faster and just mob you to death with superior numbers

Predators should suffer severely when messing up in a fight they started

[granite gate]

obviously its hard to balance herbis rn thanks to the sheer numbers of carnis megapacking, and the lack of large herds, but idk... just sucks to see every carni player (used to be deinos, now utahs) complaining that their dino cant 1v1 every other dino on the roster

and then the worst part is that the devs listen

deinos got a humongous buff with the hitbox thing

[sinful cove]

Yeah the devs made stego way worse because deinos were pissing themselves over not being able to shitstomp the whole roster

[granite gate]

stegos benefitted slightly but can still be taken down pretty easily by carnos and even utahs as long as they dont pounce

[sinful cove]

Now stego has a worse time against everything

[granite gate]

yeh.....

[sinful cove]

Legacy all over again

Carnis whine and the devs cater

[granite gate]

reach thru their asses to get thru to the head because..... realism! balance! 🙃

[sinful cove]

They think every predator should be able to hunt the whole roster like a trip to the grocery store

[granite gate]

genuinely, and that's reflected in a lot of #ai-feedback

people just want fish AI on land basically.........

[sinful cove]

Then there's the people that complain that they have to cannibalize or they they were cannibalozed because 90% of the server is playing carnis

Like hm i wonder why

[granite gate]

"but muh realism! we can only hunt herbis!"

ok bud

[sinful cove]

“I want to hunt herbis!”
“Nerf herbis! Hey why aren't people playing stego so i can 2v1 it with my uwutah friend???”

[granite gate]

yeah..........

[sinful cove]

Utah doesn’t even need pounce to kill stegos because how easily jukable stego's attack is that destroys its stam

[granite gate]

or even better, "add more AI so if i mess up 1v1ing that stego, i can just keep growing more utahs/carnos without needing to try or anything, and then just try to kill that stego again! it's not like herbis have an automatic target on their backs just by playing herbi"

[sinful cove]

Yeah lmao the “add more dryos” crowd who miss legacy oros

[granite gate]

seriously, ive seen utahs 1v1 stegos

[sinful cove]

Same it's honestly sad

[granite gate]

and sure "haha dumb stego" but no, a single utah should never be able to "outskill" a stego regardless

[sinful cove]

Stego has a shite attack that can be juked easily by a utah, a stego has to pray that server lag saves it before its stam is destroyed

[granite gate]

stegos should not only be able to be played by stego mains.... herbis should not take more skill to play than a carni does

especially not with all the megapacks

[sinful cove]

It should be harder to be the hunter than to be the hunted

[granite gate]

and yes, again, its shit to have to balance things with megapacks in mind, but that's how the game is rn

temp fixes for a temp ass game

[sinful cove]

But atm its so easy for carnis that they are 80% of a map and still complain that they don't have enough food? Like huh???

[granite gate]

not like it's anywhere near being a full game anyways, so why not just keep balancing it on a short-term basis?

and yeh

plus as a carni, if im in a low-deino area, i can just swim over to some ripples and have a snack anyways

[sinful cove]

Also i heard that carnis wont be punished nearly as much by diets as herbis so how in the hell would that help fix megapacking if it's true

[granite gate]

^

[sinful cove]

It will isolate herbis more and make them easier pickings for the carnis with loose diet restrictions and less penalties

[granite gate]

unless carnis will be encouraged to eat the same species

and yeah all the diet system will do is give carnis better camping spots lmao

[sinful cove]

Definitely seems like it

[granite gate]

at least rn herbis can say "im not going anywhere near fuckin central"

and then all the carnis go there to eat each other instead

[sinful cove]

Now it will just make herbis isolate themselves and carnis will know where to lynch them

[granite gate]

real pog...... so excited... wow i get to eat 1 brand new variant of plant.... really wanna play herbi now.... so dynamic........

[sinful cove]

I wish the devs had literally anything good for herbis to reveal but they probably dont have anything planned at all

[granite gate]

seriously, they're wasting all their time on this diet stuff and it's supposed to fix herbis and the hotspot issue

genuinely, the only way to get people back playing herbis is to add nesting back in

its that easy

[sinful cove]

I dont see how diets will solve megapacking carnis, hotspots or mixpacking carnis

[granite gate]

nesting was the main reason anyone played herbis in legacy... other than the occasional maia murder gang to destroy docktahs

god i hope they add maias back

[sinful cove]

Nesting was a reason to play herbi but now herbis will be discouraged from mix herding and being social due to diets

[granite gate]

tenontos are nice and all, but they dont really keep utahs in check like they did before. they're still a prey item for a full sized pack

[slim dragon]

Hey, it's kinda hard to make herbi gameplay interesting for someone who isn't already interested in herbies

[granite gate]

"mix herding" deadass...............

[slim dragon]

Herbivore life is boring irl

[granite gate]

depends on the herbi

a lot of them have pretty complex social lives

elephants, horses, etc.

[sinful cove]

They can lend herbis quality of life and niche diversity in the least

And make the defensive/brawler herbis not trash

[slim dragon]

That yes, it's true for now what we have seems kinda lackluster

Teno is good, dryo and hypsi are useless, stego is trash

Ptera is good too (it's listed in the carnis but in essence it's a herbi)

[granite gate]

dryo actually has great survivability but its just boring to play unless you're trolling

[stone oak]

😅 my only intent was to express that the choice of rooting for a punishment on a failed pounce execution was a poor choice, and that there could be alternatives that are just as effective but don't detract from the overall experience of playing Utah... and it kinda got sidetracked into this? I can see that you guys are really passionate though, which is good

[sinful cove]

Teno is decent, it has a 50/50 in a 1v1 against a faster predator who is usually in groups

[slim dragon]

Yes. This is why this channel is called feedback "discussions". We sidetrack a lot ^^

[slim dragon]

I mean it's fun to play

[sinful cove]

The stun gives the target a fair opportunity to punish the utah for its mistake

This goes for both carni and herbi targets

[granite gate]

yeh tenontos are fun to play but again, wont be too viable unless it only comes across small packs, and until nesting gets added in and its numbers can actually rack up

im still of the opinion that, for the same relative damage/health, herbis should grow faster than carnis

it just makes sense, herbis grow fast n die fast irl

[sinful cove]

They really should

[slim dragon]

Yes I agree herbis should have faster growth time than their carnivore counterparts

[sinful cove]

They are less played, usually slower and usually end up getting lynch mobbed by 50 carnis so they may as well grow faster

[slim dragon]

Herbi life might become a lot more interesting once there is a good population of AI, if it's implemented right

[granite gate]

and for the love of god please...... dont let utahs go up into trees. fuckers are literally everywhere, they are the plague, let the trees be at least one safe spot away from the shits or else we're gonna get birdtahs

[sinful cove]

The devs love utah too much

Wanting them to climb trees, like seriously?

[granite gate]

"if its implemented right" you say, about a 6 year old early-access game with 8 dinos in it and a huge lack of features......

[slim dragon]

Yeah I don't know why they want Utah to go up trees... Though it's a concept art after all, maybe if it's not in the game rn it's because the idea of going up trees for utah was scrapped

[sinful cove]

Save the momentum climbing for velo not utah who already has enough

[slim dragon]

Evrima isn't 6-year old

[granite gate]

like game development is hard and its a small team, i understand that, but expecting AI to be anywhere where it needs to be soon is just unrealistic

[slim dragon]

I did not say soon

[granite gate]

oh my god i get that argument yes whatever, but i bought "the isle"

[slim dragon]

I'm expecting nothing from this game soon

[granite gate]

the game would not have needed a recode if the code for legacy wasnt spaghetti in the first place

[slim dragon]

I'm confident that it will be very nice someday, and I'm willing to wait a few years for that

Yeah Legacy's spaghetti code is another problem

[granite gate]

im just saying that justifying herbi life being shit with "AI will fix it" is not a good fix in the short to medium-term

long-term? that sounds great

but we need a solution sooner than that

[slim dragon]

And there's the fact devs didn't really know what they were doing back then and did a ton of half-baked playables and mechanics

[granite gate]

that was my point

[sinful cove]

At least they didnt ditch it like a lot of other indie games end up being dropped when they get rough, and the recode is free with legacy

[granite gate]

tru, and again im saying i understand that game development is hard. im not trying to shit on the devs here, im just saying we need a fix for herbis that is still relatively fast to develop (i.e, not super complex AI)

half of the roster should not be incredibly boring to play for such a long chunk of development

[slim dragon]

Yeah, but as I said, there's not really much things interesting in a herbi's life, apart from the social aspect

[sinful cove]

Im just gonna be prepared and expecting a letdown when it comes to the treatment of herbis in the future, since it seems to be consistent, then i will be less disappointed when it happens

[slim dragon]

Herbis weren't even meant to be playable originally tho
Maybe they don't care about them that much because they aren't part of the intended experience ?

[granite gate]

well they're in the game anyways

[sinful cove]

Well it's fairly obvious they don't care about herbis much

[granite gate]

so they kind of should.....

otherwise remove them, like global

[slim dragon]

They might be playable only because there's no AI versions of them for now...

[granite gate]

well a lot of people would probably leave if they completely removed herbis

sure not all the 12 year olds wacking it to their fantasy tech rexes from ark, but a decent amount of the playerbase would just leave

[slim dragon]

From what I've guessed, carnivores will be the intented gameplay experience, and players are given the option to play herbi if they want, but shouldn't be forced to do it

[granite gate]

idk i think the devs are making a big mistake when it comes to the "intended gameplay experience" stuff tho......... like games tend to thrive more when there's more variety and freedom in how people can play the game

[sinful cove]

They also didnt want to add omnivores for a while so i fear for the treatment of that faction as well

Theyll keep pandering to carni faction and probably the humans, and just ignore the poor condition of herbis and possibly omnis

[slim dragon]

Well omnis are closer to carnis in gameplay than to herbis

Though I guess it depends on which ones

[sinful cove]

Kinda depends on the omni

Like i doubt oviraptor will really hunt anything sizable

[granite gate]

watch them just turn the game into a primal carnage x ark fanfic.net abomination

[slim dragon]

But I agree I'm a little disappointed that they puch so much effort in making herbis interesting and with special abilities if they're only to be left in an almost unplayable state afterwards

[granite gate]

^

stego literally just has a tail swing and that's it

[sinful cove]

They put in just enough effort to claim they care

[granite gate]

a shit ass tail swing mind you

[sinful cove]

An easily jukable tail swing that they made the conscious decision to nerf so it destroys your stam

[granite gate]

"becuz oehrwiz pepl wud spam it and thats not our intended gameplay expeweince :((("

meanwhile, deinos

oh and carnos

oh and utahs

oh and every other dino that can spam-attack

[sinful cove]

Oh nooo the slow animal that is too fat to run away from literally anything can spam an easily jukable attack while its being bled out by 50 utahs? This must be stopped!

[granite gate]

my balance! my precious balance!

[sinful cove]

Carnis should steamroll everything because jurassic park said so!

[granite gate]

😩

prior to stego's nerf it was actually nice to see them waltz around and be so violent and aggressive, like rhinos or smth. they became a part of the environment, and would actually go out in the open because they could afford to and didnt instantly die. one of my favorite moments in evrima so far was when i was running around as a utah in a pack trying to pick off baby stegos from a herd and dodging the adults (instead of trying to hunt them)
now it's just "hey look stegos, you guys wanna go for em lol?"

[modest carbon]

@worldly venture tenos stam drain for kicks being less than tail slams is there for a reason. Tenos kicks dont do as much damage as the tail slams, so youre effectively making stam changes to something that isnt a problem :/

[dusky surge]

slam is really REALLY good, i dont see why you'd want him to be using it more

[worldly venture]

No that was a joke, I know why.

I don't think that it should take less stam, I think that the kick shouldn't take near as little stam as it does, and i needed to balance that out

[modest carbon]

but they arent equal, tail slam is dramatically greater in dmg than the kick

[worldly venture]

Simply reducing kick stam should be fine, but the tail slam should have a bit more utility to make up for it. The kick can be used while spinning too, making it a more agile but precise move, and that means that while it's still not better it's really good

Plus, what's the issue with giving it more slams? It still does the same damage, has the same stun time, and needs to wait a while for a new one once it runs out

Notice how I mentioned a slight reduction, not a major one, because instead of I think 10 kicks it is now, you could do 11 or 12, I knew not to make you do 20

[modest carbon]

Im not saying kick isnt usable, its very viable. But it shouldnt cost more stamina than it does.
also, have you.. played teno much? The number of tail slams it has is like 9 and it has like 26 kicks

thats how dramatically different the amount of dmg the 2 attacks do

teno is honestly extremely balanced right now, if anything I would've left teno alone and picked on utah to help it with its horrible dismounting problems

[worldly venture]

I've played tenonto quite a lot, and 9 is literally 1 off of 10, so it's not like I'm far off. As tenonto, I mostly die in fights with a lot of lag, and I still have a few on different servers

I understand though, thanks for the feedback and I'll look at Utah, although I haven't encountered anything too strong or underpowered with its kit as of yet? I think most of the issues with pounce and such is from bugs or poor positioning

[modest carbon]

why would you want kick to be closer to max 10 if the two attacks are dramatically different in dmgs and use? The range of the kick is extremely short compared to the range of the tail

Also a tenonto has 26 kicks

[worldly venture]

And yet the kicks uses are extremely important, and no stun attack on a relatively heavy creature should really have 26 tries before stam regen

Considering the agility of it too. And you can just as easily chain a kick stun with the slam as you can a slam with the slam to do a lot of damage overall or straight up kill the opponent either way

[modest carbon]

but not many people use the kick when fighting heavier creatures such as the carno because they have tailslam. Kick is more used against utahs, as running head first towards a carno to do a 180 kick isnt smart

[worldly venture]

And the slam is miles easier to dodge as well if you aren't stupid. Once the anim starts there's only one way the attack is gonna go

[modest carbon]

Id beg to differ, the kick is easier to dodge because of its said range. Kick has also has a longer cooldown

most carnos and utahs falter to the tailslam, so you are either bad at tailslams, or fighting a bad teno

[worldly venture]

I personally never have to use kick, because I never find smart Carnos who don't run into my tail. However, I wouldn't doubt it'd be easy to abuse the slow drifting stop to 180 boot it in the head

[worldly venture]

I hit my slams, and I hit my tenontos

[modest carbon]

if you never use kick why are you proposing that its too op with its stam consumption and use

[lament cloak]

teno is literally the most balanced creature and you changed it the most, stego is the worst creature by a long shot and you didn't change it at all, and deino is the most op creature and you gave it a BUFF

[worldly venture]

Granted a lot do these fights are on American servers and so there might not be too many bright people I have to fight, but I still barely lose the 1v1 on EU either

[worldly venture]

I never once stated that it is "OP"

[worldly venture]

I didn't buff deino? Tf?

[lament cloak]

and you nerfed carno acceleration, already a utah, hypsi, or dryo that knows what they are doing isnt ever going to get caught.

[modest carbon]

youre giving it a nerf tho.. thats proposing its over powered

[lament cloak]

oh, wait I thought you meant a stun for the prey if the deino runs out of stam, I was a tad confused

but that still doesn't change how ridiculously op the alt bite on deino is

[worldly venture]

That's not anywhere near what that means dude, its the nature of a stun attack that is strong, not overpowered

[worldly venture]

Yeah I'd say it needs to lose stam, it's throwing its entire body around

[worldly venture]

I say that for the sole purpose that making mistakes as Carno isn't punishable enough for the sake of what the creature is. A Carno can almost run into a stegos tail and zoom off before it even starts the animation. And while I agree its hard to catch small fellas, it's also incredibly easy to catch back up to them if you fuck up

None of them are set in stone and I change my mind about some things as I go along, but I don't think any of my proposed ideas are bad, and some or probably good changes

Like who tf wants to be dead 100% of the time even if the deino that grabs you has like 25% stam? That's ridiculous

[modest carbon]

Thats on you for being at the shore with no stam,

wait i read that wrong

[worldly venture]

What? Do you even know what I'm saying?

[modest carbon]

deinos cant delete you with 25% stam via drowning, if anything they drag you into the water, let go and then bite you to death

[lament cloak]

Utahraptor:
-give a kick that costs 25% stam to jump away from targets that it pounced
-hold E to struggle if you were pinned pounced, it acts like bucking but if you were pinned

Teno
-most balanced creature in the game

Dryo
-speed nerf but improve its dodge ability

Hypsi
-honestly what you said would be pretty good
-10 degree cone spit

Stego
-5% stamina drain per swing

• take away the 2x multiplier on the head, its just dumb and makes stegos drop like flies (1.5x maximum)

Carno
-also extremely balanced

Deino
-10% stamina drain on the alt bite
-slow alt bite to regular bite speed
-Hold E to struggle if you were lunged by a deino, it will decrease yours, and the deinos stamina faster (mostly the deinos) similar to bucking from a utah

Ptera
-good where it is

[modest carbon]

^ there you go

[lament cloak]

that is what I think would be good changes

[modest carbon]

[worldly venture]

Those are also quite good. I think the stego is a little unnecessary, and some sort of get away should be possible against someone using their ambush poorly, but pretty good

[lament cloak]

well atm stego has 10 swings and its utterly defenseless, so either you need to increase the standing stamina regen, or give it more swings

[modest carbon]

if you miss an ambush, odds are the victim has already fled, unless you are something thats slow

[worldly venture]

Stego I would argue is completely fine, it wins every match up in the game, even when there's multiple of its opponents in many cases it still has a really good chance. A stegos head is the most vulnerable part of its body, it makes sense

[worldly venture]

I didn't say miss...

I really do not want to keep talking to you. I took your advice into account and you carried on, now you're just being strange

[worldly venture]

It only has 10?! Well I barely lost my stam 2 swinging a Carno just now, maybe I didn't pay attention to it though

I even missed 2 swings before hand to try and catch him coming down, but I barely lost anything

[modest carbon]

If you dont mean miss then I have no idea what 'using ambush poorly' means

apologies on my part then

[lament cloak]

yeah, it looses 10% stamina per swing, which means you only have 10 swings and you can't run, and you can't swing anymore. that stamina foot is deceiving to how much stamina you actually have

[worldly venture]

Oh, I simply mean that if you were to ambush something on low stamina, it shouldn't be so easy to kill it. No matter what stam you got, if you get it decently into the water which doesn't take long it just dies straight up

I think someone not managing stam should be stunned for a little bit when they lose it while holding something, as there's no punishment for messing up if they're in the water, just bite them

Either that or something similar to the buck with Utah pounce. I noticed you lose stam while grabbed, I think you should only lose stam while struggling, at which the deino will as well

[modest carbon]

Youre already able to escape being ambushed as a teno when deinos run out of stam, if youre at full health and full stam you can swim out of the river while they bite your tail and live even if the deino has 100% stam

For carnos, not so much

I think, its happened to me a few times

[worldly venture]

God that's kind of ridiculous, it should be like 15 swings atleast

[modest carbon]

but those are only at medium depth rivers, where you can just barely make it to the surface

Yeah I can see the stun working for that

[worldly venture]

Ah, I only really get grabbed as a Carno or Utah. I've been grabbed once as a stego and once as a teno, and both times I died

I did get out of the teno ones grasp but it bit me to death before I could even get close to the surface

And I think that guys poor stam management should've come back to bite him (no pun intended)

Granted the other one with him would've just finished me off regardless but if it was only him I would've stood a chance

[modest carbon]

Yeah carnos swim speed is ridiculously slow so the odds of you drowning are very high, and they can just bite utahs to death

tenos, depends on the deino

[worldly venture]

Not to mention terrible swim stam as well

[alpine plover]

@worldly venture

Hypsi isnt meant to be fast

[modest carbon]

if anything reduce stam consumption of the super jump

[alpine sleet]

@hardy dirge carnos get easily clapped by like 5 utahs, and only needs 2 pounces, and a couple bites to fully kill one.

[modest carbon]

actually, if theres more than one carno, any pack of group limit abiding utahs will get obliterated

unless they land every pounce they try

[hardy dirge]

That's where you run away? Carno has the speed to do so. And it's not Utahs that these group sizes are causing issues to, it's the Stegos and Tenontos. They get mobbed by 5 carnos and there's literally nothing they can do but die.

It defeats the small game hunting purpose for Carnotaurus IMO

[nocturne fiber]

@grand geyser Deino is cold blooded.

It’s suppose to go awhile without eating

[grand geyser]

this is a game and balance needs to be a thing

[wheat field]

It os

Is

[alpine sleet]

yes, but snek said the group limit would be two, if its two, they would get obliterated by a full pack

[grand geyser]

afk growing residentsleeper

[nocturne fiber]

Wh

[grand geyser]

wdym im just stating my opinion on the current gameplay of the creature

[nocturne fiber]

She just said how Deino is good at afking

[wheat field]

Ah figured you were calling me a afk growing resident sleeper

[modest carbon]

ohh, yeah. At least 3 - 4, five is a little much

[grand geyser]

nah just stating that the creature encourage people to afk grow, and survive on fish in a corner of the map

instead of actually looking for ambush opportunities in the first 4 hours of gameplay

[hallow spire]

I say 3 Carnos should be it

[wheat field]

1. Crocodilians/Alligators are cold blooded.
2. Diets System will prevent AFKIng
3. Deino has to kill bigger prey in order to fill its hunger to full otherwise it gets little to none .
4. If Deino doesn’t find fish it must absolutely resort to cannibalism or going on land.
5. It will probably be changed in the future but at the moment there is not a lot for Deino to feed on considering every dino goes to shallows to drink @grand geyser

[modest carbon]

sounds good to me, 👍 it is a small game hunter, so its not like numbers are needed, as they dont need to counter teno herds

[dim crown]

Huh?

[wheat field]

How are you not done typing yet

[grand geyser]

1. True but balance has to take priority.
2. The feature isn't out yet so we don't actually know if diets will fix anything (before we see it in action).
3. I watched a streamer thriving for 5 hours as a dieno from juvie to adult in a corner of the map only on fish.
4. Cannibalism is fine.
5. This is true and shallows needs to be deepened so there is a risk to drinking. @wheat field

[wheat field]

As I said for #3 if a Deino cannot find fish they must absolutely go for larger prey besides Fish AI isn’t done yet also the Devs have given us a clear vision for the Anti-AFK diet system feature so AFKing is not an option

[grand geyser]

We still don't know until we are able to test the feature

[wheat field]

Bro. What part of it is literally gonna be impossible to AFK do you not understand. The devs have given us a very clear vision for this. You’re not gonna be able to just eat drink and then sit. Punch has confirmed this

[grand geyser]

You will but you won't be as strong is what was stated was it not?

[dim crown]

Kinda

WIP

[grand geyser]

There is going to be incentive to not afk like a stronger adult version or something but people will still do it i feel.

[wheat field]

You get debuffs that are gonna be “grueling” to get back and “hell on earth” as they put it

[dim crown]

Afk grow sucks

Dont do it

[wheat field]

That’s why devs have been against it from Day 1 and now we have the system to fix it

[alpine sleet]

they nerfed carnos speed in the update, and it's not just speed that gets you away from threats, if 2 utah pounces you, they would just stay on you. The carnos also have the worst turn radius, and stegos aren't the problem, a carnos shouldn't risk going after a stego, one swipe to the head and ded. A stego can also just camp a tree or water, and stegos can form groups just as big as carnos, and also even if the carnos could mob stegos and destroy them, the stegos already basically destroy deinos when they get the chance, and if you saw it happen (or it happened to u), the stego player is most likely dumb. And another thing... Tenos can kill a carno with 4 tail slams, if a carno gets stunned, it most likely will be killed, heres a video from peskyhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PSQtISbvdJ4 skip to 26:16. Forgot to mention carno got multiple stamina nerfs in update 3's launch. Even a decrease in it's size. And legacy had huge pack limits maybe none depending on the server, you could have carno packs up too 10, and carno dose not only hunt small game, that is ridiculous, carno is a meat eating bull ment to take on allos, raptors, ceras, and even a such, if they are good enough or in a large pack.

[grand geyser]

true but almost all adult deinos are afk growers on official because it is almost impossible for juvies to survive with other adult dienos around

[wheat field]

Tad bit long

[alpine sleet]

yee

[wheat field]

Eh not really. You can just go to the back of the river next to the waterfall cave

[dim crown]

Carnos are trash to a flock of Pterrorists

Poor carnos...

[grand geyser]

yeah but then you are still isolating yourself, juvie dienos need more hiding places and to be faster on land than adult ones imo

[dim crown]

Not entirely true, thats debatable.

[grand geyser]

that's why i said almost, atleast as a solo player

[wheat field]

Then that’s your problem not Deinos hunger gain/drain

[grand geyser]

Dieno is boring and gives an incentive to afk what im trying to do is not just survive while isolating myself but have fun surviving. shouln't having fun be the number 1 prio in a video game?

[dim crown]

No, theres almost infinite hiding places, wich makes speed irrelevant, in this matter.

[grand geyser]

where are the hiding places?

[hardy dirge]

Bucking exists, you don't have to let them stay on your back, regardless of a speed nerf they are still the fastest animal on the island, and it's funny because I used a tenonto and none of my tail hits did any stuns (Unless the stun only applies to the head, let me know)

All I'm saying is is that 5 for a carno group is too much, 2 or 3 seems more balanced.

[grand geyser]

cause if an adult deino sees you swimming and they wan't you dead then you are gonna die no MATTER what happens

[wheat field]

I mean its fun. But having no patience for a stealth predator doesn’t help

[wheat field]

Or just go on land...

[grand geyser]

they outrun you LUL

[wheat field]

Bushes are a thing

[grand geyser]

using q is a thing

[wheat field]

Back tracking is a thing and smell sucks in Evrima

[dim crown]

Deino not boring, it gives incentive to ambush prey, dont afk grow or eat fish, next time you grow, just eat players, challenge yourself, make ur own diet, you can make it fun.

[grand geyser]

only when playing agains't a bad deino

[wheat field]

Tbh i think you’re just bad

[dim crown]

Rule 3: Dont get spotted.

[grand geyser]

if you get away from an adult dieno as a juvie that isn't skill that is nust a bad adult

[wheat field]

You see big croc you run. Its really just that simple

[grand geyser]

it is faster both in water and on land

that simple

a good adult croc kills you 100

[modest carbon]

its not faster on land but can outstam you

[wheat field]

Has worse stam drain than juviss

[grand geyser]

% of the time

[modest carbon]

or at least trot you down

[grand geyser]

still faster and it catches up

[dim crown]

If the big croc sees you, do what Dr.Grant said.

"Dont move and it wont see you"

[wheat field]

Taber if you can’t escape a Adult Deino when your running and have a small headstart your just bad at picking hiding spots

[modest carbon]

unless you are in a bare riverbed

other than that yes,

dont move

[wheat field]

Escaping an Adult Deino or Evading one is not hard. You just either sit and wait or you go hide in a bush in the neighboring forest

[grand geyser]

i understand but if it sees you and it knows what it is doing oyu are dead

simple as that

[modest carbon]

its harder when you are sub adult or not yet full

which I guess is just bad luck

[grand geyser]

yea im talking juvie/sub vs full adult

[wheat field]

Hell i have escaped many deinos by hiding near bushy tree stump areas and them rubbing me thinking its a tree stump and I get away scott free 100% of the time.

[grand geyser]

Yes it does work and you can escape some if not most deino players but not the good or experianced ones

[wheat field]

Can a Adult deino kill you if their truly committed fuck yes. But so can every other dino. You got caught out shame on you then. If you know there’s a gonna be adult deinos in the area then avoid that area

Hell the Deino Playerbase is actually cracking down on cannibals by killing cannibals themselves

[grand geyser]

cannibalism is fine tho

megapacking isn't and hopefully will be "fixed" when perks gets added

[wheat field]

Never said it wasn’t but you keep complaining about it cause juvi deinos are getting killed

[lament cloak]

cannibalism isnt a problem right now, since if it didn't exist, all you would have to do is stay in the water and you would be 100% safe and would never die, so untill things come that can actually kill juvi deinos, cannibalism is fine.

[wheat field]

Now that that’s done and gone ima go eat

[novel tulip]

Imo the only thing deino needs is for alt bite to cost stam. Right now it can be on land and be safe because it can alt bite indefinitely

If it costs stam the deino will have to save enough to run back to the water, or else it'll be defenseless and stranded

[wheat field]

Kinda stranded either way don’t you think

Not like deino has good stam drain in the 1st place

[novel tulip]

Stranded but easily able to defend yourself from most of the roster

[alpine sleet]

sorry I'm late to respond, I had some technical difficulties. Bucking doesn't get them off instantly, it only increases their stamina loss, and if it's a full pack, they would bite and keep pouncing while your in the bucking animation. The nerf to it's stamina and it's speed means you would most likely spend more time getting stamina than running. Also your tail slams didn't kill the carno, most likely because of desync.

[hardy dirge]

Well that's lovely to know I keep losing Tenontos to desync and I can do nothing to defend myself. And Yeah I suppose that's true, but still, two to three carnos should be able to manage a full pack of Utahs (Assuming it isn't a megapack of raptors and the carnos actually use their charge.)

[alpine sleet]

Good news is that most likely, the Filipe said that the desync fix will be the last hotfix for update 3, and Filipe says they are aiming for that THIS WEEKEND ! Along with the new water and possibly Utah AI. And yes, 3 Carnos would be able to take down a pack of 8 Utahs, unless the Carnos are dumb or the Utahs are smart and ambush them. I do think possibly a small nerf to the pack size, like instead of 5, make it to 4. It's better than update 2 (3 Carnos) but it's worse than update 3 (5 Carnos), so like a in between.

[vernal bone]

got any sauce for that by any chance?

[alpine sleet]

sure!

[alpine sleet]

#401464048610312195 message here's the link to the conversation read all of what he said!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zVtBm2-uQ5s and here is a video of isle news

[vernal bone]

brother I asked for sauce not a whole new fucking plate

thats awesome

thanks

[alpine sleet]

oh i thought u meant source lmao

[hardy dirge]

Seems fair

[alpine sleet]

yee

[vernal bone]

lmao I did, but you delivered extra! I just wish the dudes would make an announcement with all that info, would prevent a lot of frustration. whoever is doing these youtube videos is the real champ though

[alpine sleet]

well u can see all of what they say in #401464048610312195. You can see on the top right of the discord you see the search bar?

also because sometimes even the news vids miss out out on some handy stuff

[vernal bone]

oh is Filipe usually the guy that replies on that channel? So just search for him?

[alpine sleet]

not just that, it's mostly punch actually, very rarely jace or tapwing

search his name and see all of his new messages

[vernal bone]

good shout dude, thanks for that

[stark knoll]

generally punch, filipe, and kissen talk the most in that order

oh and hypno

[alpine sleet]

also you can even see specific things on what he said. So if you search his name, and then say sucho, it will show all of the messages where he said sucho. So if you want news on sucho, just search whatever you want after his name and press enter, like I said! Also no problem! I have recently learned this trick. EDIT: can be any dev u search

[alpine sleet]

forgot about dat, my mistake XD

[vernal bone]

thanks for sharing dude, really good tips. I can now stop moaning about the lack of updates and keep up to date with stuff myself

[alpine sleet]

np!

[vernal bone]

thanks!

[alpine sleet]

now im going to do the same thing now, and see if there is any news

[alpine plover]

@worthy fossil

Manage your stamina better

it’s entirely your fault for getting caught

No other playbable complains about being punished for not managing stam and you’re the fastest dinosaur in the game just run

how does a teno track you btw? they have to stop moving to check tracks

[worthy fossil]

tracks stay long enough to track

[alpine plover]

then dont stay in the same area

tenos are way slower then you

[hollow canyon]

Teno can absolutely run a Carno down, it's not even that hard. It's just that most of the time people aren't willing to do that + Tenonto also requires stamina to actually fight.

In other words - it's hardly about stamina management although Carno having used some of its stamina makes it just that much more vulnerable to running-down by a Tenonto.

[errant plinth]

Why wouldn't mercenaries have automatic weapons, you do realize you are many magnitudes faster than a human right?

Well obviously takes away from the horror having ammo everywhere but well prepared human settlements should be nearly impossible to crack with really good planning and stealth

[lament cloak]

@hearty spear I dont understand how making sub deinos not get eaten by the adults makes deino "harder". that just makes it easier since deinos of all ages are being eaten now, deinos are the only thing keeping the deino population from running way far out of control

[hearty spear]

@lament cloak adult deinos needs a lot of food and not being able to provide it from subs/other adults will make them forced to travel looking for another food

i guess diet of most deinos are like 60% bodies of other deinois

[lament cloak]

deino food is definitly not a problem, I survived perfectly fine off of fish and I didn't even touch another deino

[hearty spear]

ok but how many pteras and other deinos where at this moment on your map? Also there will be another fishers in future

when im playing ptera on 130 players server I have problems with finding fishes in rivers

[bleak lagoon]

That is just an issue due to the state of development right now, players will be more spread out to more species in the future hopefully

[golden coral]

@mighty knot Deino is way too good outside the water, and giving prey a "buck/struggle mechanic" would be good, even for the smaller ones. Not to mention that right now, being low on stam means very little to a deino. You can still grab, drag into water/down, and then bite the thing to kill it. So you don't even need to have full stamina for a drown. And then there's the fast and stamina free alt bite being better than normal bite, no matter the situation (see earlier thing with killing via bite instead of drown), and allowing you to be far more untouchable on land than you should be. Deino is probably one of the best and most survivable things in the game right now, unless the latest patch changed something around.

[mighty knot]

That's a problem with Deino being way too good outside the water as you said

don't try to nerf the only thing Deino is supposed to have going for it

and I restate, your half the size of literally the best animal in all of history at grabbing and dragging it's prey into it's habitat

you really shouldn't have a chance

you got caught, you messed up

Deino can get out of the water fast

but even it uses lunge and stam to catch you outside of the water

[golden coral]

I would agree, if it was a drowning thing. But as of right now, even if you grab someone with 20% stam, as long as you get them out into the water and down, you can just bite them to death. Sort of takes away from the drowning aspect a bit I would say.

[mighty knot]

and if it uses the super short range land lunge, it won't have the stam to make it all the way back to brazil

look I just was fighting a carno friend this morning in the swamp

on my own server for testing purposes

I miss maybe one or two land lunges because they tend to phase straight through my friend's carno

and I hit one

and I make it like, halfway to the deep part

drops him

I can't chase him because his sprint swim is faster than me when I'm outa stam

then he catches some land and runs away

and you can't deal enough damage with bites in time

since if he's running away I'm hitting tail and legs if I sank because I ran outa stam

which means the carno is like a 9 shot

and from the entire experience is only put to half health with most stam gone

[golden coral]

Hm, maybe the alt bite isn't quite as useful in the water, but far as I know it can be used and is effective there too, so if you get someone down into the water, they can't see or do that much. But I would have to test more to be sure on that.

[mighty knot]

with the broken hitbox I tried to abuse it

hit farther up the tail

it means nothing

not in that situation anyway

carno is still a 10 shot so it's not like the faster bite speed means anything

That's not the point though

Deino is I agree, too strong on land

all the way up on land

my carno friend had to heal themselves at least a dozen times to make me think about retreating

of course, solo carno should be instant cucked for trying to 1v1 a Deino ANYWHERE

but the fight itself was just terrible

with a hitbox fix for alt bite it might be better

make deino alt bite cost like the same stam as stego tail attack

so it can only do it so much without retreating back to the water

it shouldn't be 100% useless

how is that fun gameplay

same reason why people say deino should be nerfed because it "one shots everyone"

[golden coral]

Yeah, the land is the main issue, I can agree on that much. Alt bite stam cost and maybe slow it down a bit front wise to the normal bite speed would be good.

[mighty knot]

make it good for covering your flanks

but using it as a fast bite needs to be different

since you can still dish out enough DPS to kill a stego on land with it

[golden coral]

I think it's mostly the frontal version + the movement you get from alt that's an issue there, not so much the full turn. Though stamina should be a cost, so you use it more to retreat into wter than stay on land to fight.

[mighty knot]

I just don't know what to think anymore

They have totally ruined Deino from what I so hoped for

and turned it into something different

[golden coral]

Game balance.. it goes up and down :p

[mighty knot]

I hoped for a living tank, immobile on land, but packs a punch for anything stupid enough to get too close

like stego

I cry knowing that rex will have bigger bite

lmao

the one chance we had to 1 up the rex is gone

[golden coral]

Well deino is a living tank :p

[mighty knot]

stego kills it in 4 hits

...

tank for 8 seconds of life

[golden coral]

Compared to stego, deino is invincible :p

[mighty knot]

Everything has issues tbh

stego has a tough time against the things it needs to be good against

[golden coral]

Well, deino kills stego equally fast, and that's the only matchup that's relatively balanced. Every other matchup, deino is so much better at surviving than stego is

[mighty knot]

and is OP against Deino, which is bigger stronger and tankier

We still need tug of war

[golden coral]

But if you compare deino vs carno/utah/dryo group and stego vs the same groups, both on land (with deino near water, as it should be), then the deino would probably be able to last way longer, and taken far more with it than the stego, from how it looked last I tested things

[mighty knot]

I think that's still valid

I'm not saying that's right

Stego needs to be amazing for crowd control and defending itself

maybe even the best

but Deino shouldn't be useless

just because "it's supposed to live in water"

like god damn I would hate to play something that is 100% limited to the banks of rivers and swamps

that's like

3% of the map

[golden coral]

Nah, that's fair, just that's what I meant with deino being a tank :p

[mighty knot]

Spino got the deep parts

[golden coral]

Well.. I think that's what deino does to be fair

It's a very niche animal

If you don't like just sitting in the river, deino is not for you I'm guessing

Balance issues aside

[mighty knot]

But then why are people saying to take away the power of it's niche

like jesus

everyone is so keen on making Deino useless and then also say that lunge is too strong

like is that not what you want?

[golden coral]

I think most just wants the alt bite land deino to get fixed

And I've not seen many say that lunge is too strong, or to change that, except wanting a proper struggle mechanic/tug of war

[mighty knot]

for things half it's weight and higher sure

[golden coral]

I don't mind how it currently is, but I do think it would be better and more interesting if there was more struggle and all that involved

[mighty knot]

I've played the other side of Deino VS something on land too actually

and it's terribly frustrating, mostly the hitbox but fr

you can't get close

not solo anyway

which actually now that I think about it, is perfect

Deino needs to be a predator on the banks, and a fat tank that just needs some time to get back to the water on land

not useless

[golden coral]

Well, nothing solo except a stego should mess with a deino, even on land, it's more that they can take on entire groups on land and be fine from what I know, and unlike setego, they can bail out if they feel it going against them :p

[mighty knot]

Nothing on the island right now is meant to kill Deinos

everything but stego is MEANT to be prey

so I think people are under the assumption that it's super op

because the only thing that's not on it's menu is stego

that's what deino is though

super niche kinda apex that eats midtiers and runs from big apexes

it's unthreatened because the "runs from big apexes" part isn't a thing yet

Buff the lunge hitbox on land so that it actually works

and nerf the alt bite hitbox and make it cost stam so it's not as powerful

maybe nerf it's speed idk

[golden coral]

Which would be why it'd be balanced to be killed by current things

Just like stego is

When there are bigger things in, then deino can get a buff too

[slim dragon]

@rotund meadow I have a better idea, that wouldn't require destroying balance, immersion and combat mechanics. Make a tutorial so players aren't forced to ask other people about basic knowledge of the game.

[rotund meadow]

I agree they should make a tutorial. But what Balance are you referring to? The current situation isn't balanced at all. Are you referring to the "Balance" of a social hunter leaving themselves constantly vulnerable to cannibalism, giving away their position by 2 calling or trying to be social chatting from bushes in proximity. Or new players seeing someone they could group with and not knowing if its going to be a positive experience until their potential friend headshots them for a significant portion of their health automatically starting the fight with a disadvantage simply because they hold different social beliefs about what makes for a fun game. The difference in first strike vs same species cooldown could be synced to be slightly less than the amount of time it takes for the victim to bite back, preserving whatever level of advantage the devs choose to assign a first strike on the same species. This actually would create balance by providing more equal footing for same species aggression fights. The fact is same species aggression is a fundamentally different combat encounter than every other type of encounter in the Isle because it is the only situation in which you could group with your attacker. This naturally creates different social dynamics and expectations. Right now the clear advantage is given to the cannibalistic minded members of the community with zero consideration for the socially minded except the risk/reward of having another group member if the invitation is successful but its rolling the dice at the moment as to whether you will just loose your dino. Does that seem fair? The current situation creates a race to the bottom of trust in the community. Its not a balanced mechanic to give a clear advantage in information and eternal first strike to cannibals over social players. It creates an optimal state of play in which you just attack everything on sight because if you don't you are automatically at a disadvantage. It punishes trust.

A cannibal fight is never "fair" unless its against another cannibal where both players know the deal. Cannibalism punishes community growth and new player onboarding by nature. Or perhaps you prefer the "Immersion" of constantly stopping in a bush every time you see a member of your own species to hurriedly type "Are you a Cannibal?" putting yourself further at a disadvantage. Hoping that they speak your language and if they don't respond either running away or attacking them first thereby making you into the very thing you hoped to avoid.

[vagrant mural]

what if hypothetically, we didn't trust everyone blindly, there are friendly groups out there, but you never under any circumstances run up to a group of stuff and hope they don't insta gimp you, keep at least a decent distance, if they invite you to a group most of the time they're safe but again, never trust anyone, not to protect you, not to attack you, nothing, the game is survival, the people who cannibalize are simply surviving

[rotund meadow]

Like him or not The Gaming Beaver has 3.23 million subscribers and huge outreach for this game, this community and one of his first evangelist videos for the new Isles update features an unceremonious end to his crocodile video titled "The Giant Crocodile Attacks!" in which he is Attacked by 2 full grown Deinos after going into water to escape a Stego he just attacked for content. this is his script "What whats going on here? What why is there a crocodile after me? What? I am SO Confused! Why is this happening? Why did two of the crocodiles go for me? WHAT THE HELL MAN?! I have no idea why those crocs attacked me. What? What are you? Why? What! I just got killed like that? arse hole. WOW ! wow wow What just happened? I have no idea guys. I have no idea why that happened." - The GamingBeaver one of the primary advocates for dinosaur content on youtube and a major content creator for the Isle.

[vagrant mural]

so? the deinos just wanted to attack him and probably eat him, just how the game works

they took advantage of a weakened target, and ate him

[rotund meadow]

This person is very experienced in Isle content he is not a new player Does he sound like he is having fun? Does that sound like the type of game that people cant wait to spend 5 hours growing a Deino for ?

[vagrant mural]

I know who he is, he's a bit confused, but he's been cannibalized as a deino before, in fact even back when he made content is legacy he was cannibalized a lot, its just a part of the gameplay loop for carnivores, and in some cases yeah, it sucks to die as a deino you worked hard for, but its just a game, you can regrow one

[dusky surge]

i'd actually like it if cannibalism had to be pre-empted via threaten, however you code that in or balance it. Makes it that you have a better conveyance of "fuck off or I'll kill your ass, we aren't looking for friends and we will eat you". Makes sense for the dinos too, since they'd naturally communicate via their vocalisations and would threaten creatures they don't want to deal with. It does not need to be a "both parties need to threaten" kind of deal, just one party uses it as a warning before they run after you and kick your shit in.

[slim dragon]

There's also other fixes planned against cannibalizing if it's your mains concern. Stacking them won't be a good idea.

[rotund meadow]

Thats how the game works now... it doesnt have to be how the game works always. The entire Evrima project is a practice in challenging what players have come to expect and take for granted about the game. It is also a great opportunity to craft the type of experience that players will enjoy being a part of for years to come rather than subsisting on the shoestring mechanics and design choices that plagued Legacy isle. We Have the Choice to actually Make A REAL Game!!! That feels Fair and Rewarding not just a sandbox where people can be as toxic as they want and everyone just throws up their hands and says "Thats just how the game works"

[dusky surge]

the worst part about cannibalism atm is that, with other species, you know to be cautious, just I want there to be a conveyance to stay cautious around x group, because they are literally warning you that they will kill you

[slim dragon]

What is a real game then ? A game that doesn't allow you to use all the opportunities or the tools at your disposal ?

[rotund meadow]

absolutely i didnt know they were also working on other fixes as i mentioned im pretty new

if the devs choose thats the experience that they want to craft then yes! Restriction is an absolutely key element of game design. Game design is all about choosing what the players can and cannot do and those choices have great power in how toxic the player behavior they allow in the game can be.

[slim dragon]

Sometimes you are forced to cannibalize. Sometimes there are players who just want to kill their own for fun. But for those people, there is no mechanic that will prevent them from being toxic. Toxic people are what they, and that cannot be changed.

The only way to prevent toxic players from killing their own would be to make them unable to deal damage to their own species, and that would be absolutely terrible for gameplay.

[rotund meadow]

I agree sometimes you are forced to cannibalize and if that happens the other player should know thats what is happening rather than giving the cannibal this unfair advantage of always getting the first bite off. The thing i want the most is the Devs to be mindful, bold and decisive in choosing what type of experience they really want to create and craft mechanics that reflect that instead of private server admins having to shoulder the burden of creating and enforcing everyday rules that much of the community would like to experience but like you said, isn't how the game currently works. And toxic behavior can and should be mitigated by specific systems set into the game. so so so many games have shown this working and its an important project for Video Games as an art form to continue working on.

[wraith galleon]

I always kill my own

[slim dragon]

We know

[vagrant mural]

doesn't matter if I'm hungry

[rotund meadow]

I totally agree and the first strike mechanic would let that be a fair fight

[slim dragon]

The first strike mechanic ? Do you mean dealing less damage to a member of your species the first time you attack them ?

[vagrant mural]

man how would that work for cerato

[slim dragon]

There is already a damage reduction mechanic from members of your group.

[rotund meadow]

if people want to cannibalize thats a choice but it should be a choice that is done without artificial social advantages placed on the one who wants to hurt people trying to be their friend

[vagrant mural]

the creature designed with cannibalism in mind to an extent

[slim dragon]

That "first strike" mechanic is just a worse version of it in my opinion.

[rotund meadow]

you are entitled to your opinion like i said in my post i fully expected any change to damage to be controversial

[slim dragon]

I agree that grouping with someone then attacking them is really bad and an ass move, but you can't really prevent it without breaking the grouping mechanic itself.

[rotund meadow]

but great games are designed with intention towards the effect that the players will feel when they are playing the game not just blanket equalization of everything.

[slim dragon]

What would be a good fix to it would be a way to quickly leave your group, if you happen to have grouped with a cannibal

[rotund meadow]

well thats what i challenged the community to think about

[slim dragon]

I'm wiling to change my opinion if you give me good enough arguments

But for now, I feel that everything you have proposed will affect gameplay in a bad way, in an attempt to fix something that could have been fixed in other ways.

[rotund meadow]

like i said in my post they aren't perfect solutions

[slim dragon]

Of course, and I'm explaining to you how you could come up with better ideas. I'm not attacking you

But I've seen a lot of suggestions going on here, some of thm are good, some of them are terrible, and most of them haven't been thought on for long enough. Or not discussed enough. Here I'm discussing it with you so you can come up with a better one next time.

[rotund meadow]

For Cerato the devs can turn it off for dinos that are not designed to be social or on for ones that are. They will have complete control over the mechanic as a tool to craft the style of experience they want to reward.

OK so there are so many things here. First you are framing this such that you are judge, jury and executioner of what a "better" idea is. That's not how this works. You are more than welcome to decide "idea quality" privately. However the merits of points and discussions are judged by each individual reader. Feel free to offer insights that you find valuable such as including a tutorial (which i wholeheartedly agree with). It is not my burden to prove that my ideas are "good enough for you" I simply clarify them as effectively as i care to for the benefit of future readers. As for being "thought on long enough" I have considered this point for several weeks. I have consulted several of my friends who are professional game designers. Funnily enough they encouraged an even stronger use of mechanics and tools to eliminate any effect that is not conducive to community creation and new player experience using several mainstream industry examples from League of Legends bold steps in community tribunal creation and multi account personal bans to World of Warships recent complete elimination of friendly fire. And as a content creator who left the Isle late last year i have spoken on this subject for several hours and made a video of my own on the subject. The designers advice is "1. Stop doing things that hurt new players and incentivize a toxic environment" and completely separately 2. Start actively doing things that create a healthy environment and onboard players with social links to established community mentors" I believe that the mechanics around grouping and cannibalism is absolutely essential to both these goals.

[wraith galleon]

deino isn't designed to be social either

gators eat eachother all the time

[rotund meadow]

Yup in my video i addressed the "real life" arguments. In real life gators spawn with a dedicated protector in that Crocodile mothers are actually quite attentive. The widespread perception that American Alligators cannibalize their young or that crocodilians are not good parents come largely from the text "The Last of the Ruling Reptiles" by Wilfred T Neill in 1971 and these assertions have been challenged in recent years by new observations and research.

But beyond that just because something happens in real life does not mean it should happen in a video game that we pay for

[wraith galleon]

i didn't say anything about parents eating their kids, just in general gators will attack and eat eachother if there isn't anything else around

[rotund meadow]

sure the parentage usually only lasts for a year anyway and its only the mom

[wraith galleon]

and it makes sense in-game too cuz deino can only catch non deinos under the specific circumstances that they are half its weight or less and drinking recklessly, when you're hungry and cant find anything to lunge you resort to cannibalism

[rotund meadow]

We are humans with social adaptations paying for an art service Videogame. We have social rules that are implicit to the activity. I would like to see a pull more toward the social effect of the game be the default normal and pure pvp cannibal servers be the one that private servers have to make special rules for. Everyone seems to be focusing on the first strike modifier but i suggested plenty more more mechanics. I also suggested an increased 2 call radius. or an Instinct meter or Stress bar. Each of these could be compelling useful tools to guide player behavior.

[wraith galleon]

what do you mean by "social rules"

[rotund meadow]

The thousands of years of team sports in human history aswell as inset group combat in the human mind. Humans are social creatures. We develop social structures that span thousands of years. Humans come with an Us vs Them psychological package that has been crucial to our development as a species. Crocodiles are not making a human simulator game and talking on crocodile discord using crocodile keyboards. Im just saying its important to know when realism is useful for the video game and when it starts to hurt it.

[wraith galleon]

i dont think a player eating another player hurts the game at all, pvp is and always will be an important part of it

[rotund meadow]

I agree pvp is important im just saying same species pvp needs to be tweaked because of the presence of the grouping mechanic and new players. I am telling you that it hurts my game when i approach a gator i cant escape from asking them to explain the new mechanics of the update to me and the first thing i know about it is i loose half my health

I promise you that did in fact hurt my gameplay experience

[sinful cove]

Advice: start by not approaching random people in a PvP survival game

[wraith galleon]

that's what happens when you walk up to an absolute stranger without caution

[sinful cove]

Advice: find a community server, join their discord and ask there if somebody online is willing to help you

[wraith galleon]

not everyone is playing for a dino chatroom to discuss updates

[rotund meadow]

Its not walking up its being spawned in a river and having a massive older version of yourself sprint up to you faster than you could ever go effectively spawncamping you (another knock against the "it happens in real life" arguments) It was not a fun interaction in the video game which is a product that is specifically designed to be fun.

Again as i said in my post i am (and in fact everyone participating in this conversation) is lucky enough to be connected to the relevant communities and information to seek the help that would make this game make sense. But new players, who are the exact people the Isle should be trying to recruit the most, (because it will be the lifeblood of their future projects) may not be so lucky. And moreover should not be relied upon to go out of their way, to Stop Playing the Game! 0.0 (Big red flag)! Go open up Another software they may not have! Download it! to understand the rules. Discord and youtube is such a crutch right now. Imagine if discord went down. its a separate company the community shouldn't be relying on it this much.

[sinful cove]

Anyone familiar with the open world PvP genre should already be prepared for this possible outcome though

[wraith galleon]

i dont think getting their hands held is the best way to teach them tho, they should learn from their mistakes

[sinful cove]

Plus when the map is bigger in the future there will be more spawn areas and players will be more spread, you will be less likely to get spawn killed

[wraith galleon]

and diets looks to disuade cannibalism to an extent as well anyway

[sinful cove]

Diets won’t stop people from making an easy kill on a juvie, but again itll be harder to spawn camp in the future anyway

Killing the weak is just always going to be something people do in this kind of game

[rotund meadow]

Not everyone is familiar with open world PvP genre. The Isle should be prepared (especially as a dinosaur game that skews younger audience) to be the First open world PvP game that anyone ever plays and to be proud of that fact. I fully acknowledge that community servers exist and they have rules that are created by people who are artificially creating the spaces that they wish to play in. My argument is that is the majority of the player base. The community servers are where the vast majority of the player base consistently wants to be and that's the style of game that they wish to participate in. They like being 3 call warned before being attacked by someone they wouldn't otherwise consider attacking. That feels fair to them. They like not having to constantly type "are you a cannibal" to every same species before offering to group. In my experience, (i'm not a dev so i don't know for sure) That's where the player base numbers are on any given day in the isle if they had the choice. They want to play a curated experience. They want to have a good time. They are on rules servers for a reason because that's where the fun, fair feeling gameplay is. And the game might want to think about making that the default normal through mechanics so an army of mods don't have to do it for them.

[sinful cove]

I dont like having to 3 call before a fight or being prohibited from attacking a carni as an herbi until they bite me first

Sure you may find that fun but official servers shouldn't be tainted by body down, 3 call hunt and herbi aggression rules

Neither should such things be stitched into game mechanics

If i see some juvie thats could grow up to he a problem for me in the future im gonna squish it

[rotund meadow]

These suggestions wouldn't prevent you from doing that Miragaia. Lets not scope creep. im just suggesting making it clear when someone is being attacked by same species. It wouldn't even prevent cannibalism it would just make cannibalism fights more fair. From my perspective I don't like that the default normal of an online dinosaur nest in social game with over 100 people per server rewards a constant paranoia and combat disadvantage against those who want to group first and don't cannibalize. Again you feel free to squish juvies, the only rules that are being proposed would just make cannibalism fights fairer than they are currently.

[sinful cove]

The solution just seems to be to play on your rule heavy servers then

[wraith galleon]

except the isle isn't a social game, it's become one for a lot of people because of the long time the devs are taking to realize their vision, but it is supposed to be an intense hardcore horror experience where constant paranoia is expected

tailor suiting the game for people that have the wrong idea of what its working towards is pointless

[rotund meadow]

yes and i agree that the reason this conversation is so compelling is because it is about the very heart and direction of the isle and that that heart has changed as new players with different goals have joined it myself included among them. A large portion of the content creation about The Isle right now features large hunting groups, all on discord coordinating together. The devs have group limits up to 10 people on a 100 player server and you say The Isle isn't a social game? It absolutely is.

[granite gate]

i do think the game could be made more beginner-friendly, but yeah... expecting the isle to be a friendly buddy experience with strangers is not realistic. it’d be like opening up an fps game and getting upset when the enemy team kills you

[rotund meadow]

well thats just the point isnt it? The argument over what the "wrong idea" is is up for debate as we are doing right now.

except you do get upset when the same team kills you in Counterstrike

[granite gate]

no one on the isle is “on the same team” tho

[rotund meadow]

and if in that fps only one faction out of several could join you and be on your team or choose not to and then you see that faction and take a massive debuff if you tried to group with them.

well thats how you see it thats not how everyone sees it going in

[granite gate]

its a hardcore pvp experience, it’s a deathmatch — every dino for themselves

thats the base of the game

[rotund meadow]

thats not how the game was marketed to me when i first joined

[wraith galleon]

the only ones who are gonna be on the same team are the humans

[granite gate]

???

[golden coral]

I think perhaps a part of the issue here is that mirror matches, more so with adult vs juvie, isn't really very fun or full of skill in most times. That can make being cannibalized worse, than if you had a proper fight/chance to escape and all that.

[rotund meadow]

when i first joined it was only on the most populated servers in Legacy which were the several rules based servers

[granite gate]

can you send screenshots or smth lmao because the steam page says “hardcore survival”

[rotund meadow]

is a pink and teal neon colored cerato part of the "hardcore" part or the "survival" part? ; )

[granite gate]

isnt that from the xommunjty tho

[wraith galleon]

that's not marketing

[rotund meadow]

thats exactly what i mean tho

[granite gate]

*community

sorry im on mobile rn

[golden coral]

No. It's survival, with PvPvE, horror (for the humans) and more sim (for the dinos). It's not at all a deathmatch, the current "delayed deathmatch" that we have is not what the game is meant to be. And as for hardcore, I don't know, we'll see on that one. If anything, it should be species vs species vs mercs vs tribals, not faction vs faction.

[rotund meadow]

the people playyyinnnggg the Gaammmeee are interested in their purple neon dinosaurs also

[granite gate]

fair enough erik, i was just tryna say that it’s essentially a free-for-all

[rotund meadow]

but is it that way by design or by lack of design

[granite gate]

idk man ask the devs

[rotund meadow]

is it that way because thats the game that they want to make or just thats the game with the least rules that was easiest to produce

[rotund meadow]

thats exactly what the post was asking. for the devs to really think about what the new player experience is and how they want that first interaction with a same species dinosaur (that they might look up to, that could help them and be a really positive new player onboarding experience) to go down. All i'm asking for is some fairness to understanding if someone is attacking me or not. It shouldn't be that much to ask.

[granite gate]

part of that will be fixed by nesting, surely. i do agree the devs should work on some sort of tutorial for new players

[wraith galleon]

i agree on that as well

[rotund meadow]

ya absolutely and i did fully agree with Bubulblu on that

[golden coral]

True, as of right now it is. And has been for far too long honestly. As fun as PvP is, a more complete game would be nice. And I think this, as well as Diversions vision here points to a problem that has been around for a long time. That the game lacked well, most of it beyond "Here, have a dinosaur, go bite stuff" in a sandbox setting :p

[granite gate]

yeh more complexity’d be nice

[rotund meadow]

i mean i think teams could be really nice! uknow like have pride in your dino identity and war against the other species or at least have some people you can count on to teach you in the game in real time. That was some of the most fun i ever had on the isle. I know for a fact, the idea that the game, which lots and lots of people want to play, has to be hand created by hundreds of human mods and admins on private servers every single day for years, is personally keeping dozens of my friends out of the Isle right now. The community needs to acknowledge that same species, Cannibal attackers have an inherent psychological advantage over other types of attackers in both social threat recognition and identical ability set. This can be evaluated as a balance issue. There are very few defenses against someone who can do everything you can do but better.

I fully expect that these suggestions will not be popular with people who are currently playing the isle because by definition of playing the isle and being on this discord right now they have proven that they are willing to engage with and enjoy the games current state but let me tell you... Lots of people bounce off this game. People who don't play the isle right now and aren't on this discord, who tried it and quit, they quit for partly for reasons like this. Because honestly large parts of the game feel toxic when you play it. Being eaten for asking to group... feels toxic. Not finding out if someone is going to help you or not until half your health is gone... feels toxic. And with just a small adjustment devs could turn that encounter into an exciting heart-pounding experience where you have to run and hide (still in a disadvantaged state mind you, its not like you didn't take damgage), where you have actually gameplay not just getting rag-dolled and seeing the select screen, that still communicates the survival/horror/hardcore feel just as effectively but feels just that slight bit fairer. Because lets be honest you are more than likely going to be younger than the same species cannibalizing you anyway it wouldn't hurt to throw them a half second head start. It could even be just once per dino life. It could be whatever the devs want. It could be text over the invite window if they don't respond saying RUN! Kids do this in tag all the time in playgrounds all over the world. Headstarts. Its not that hard to help something feel more fair.

[bleak lagoon]

I am of the opinion the official servers should maintain the hardcore aspects of the game whilst community servers should do as they please. What I personally dislike is community servers using disneybucks so you can buy dinosaurs, it doesn't hurt the game for me or anyone else but it just seems a bit tacky.

[desert zodiac]

I don't know too much about it but the way I've understood it these "disneybucks" as you've hilariously called it allows people who may not have to time allowance to grind a 5 hour Dino or whatever to be able to experience them just by popping on to ear the disneybucks over a longer period of time? Not looking to argue just want to understand your side :)

[hollow canyon]

A lot of people view that as making the game p2w.

Literally seems like a non-issue to me - if you don't want to play on those servers then don't. I've also never spent an additional penny the game after buying it and I've played on those servers just fine.

[desert zodiac]

Like I said I don't know much the only version I've heard of is earned through playtime

[hollow canyon]

Hmm... you can also buy those points with money as far as I know.

[desert zodiac]

Interesting I generally stick to one server so never experienced ones with similar systems

[hollow canyon]

I view it as a non-issue because getting a fully grown dinosaur doesn't win you the game and it's basically boils down to people trading money for the time more so than anything else - they still end up in square zero the moment they die and they die all the same as other players so it's not a problem as far as I'm concerned.

[bleak lagoon]

I think the disneybucks way of doing things is perfectly fine but in the future I would hope that there would be enough customization within the game to allow for a x2 growth system or something, kind of similiar to rust and the servers that wipe every two weeks but they have increased drops and such.

So instead of growing an animal for 5 hours it would be 2 and a half.

[hollow canyon]

Do you mean some server settings that would allow the server owners to manipluate the growth times? I definitely hope that will be an option for the community servers.

[mighty knot]

@alpine plover Cannibalism should be the ONLY thing a Deinosuchus shouldn't do. The niche for Deinos is to hunt at the banks of rivers, swamps, and lakes. Deinos do not go to take drinks at the banks, and are not small enough to be in it's prey's weight class (even if you follow this suggestion of mine: ---) and would not be part of it's diet. If it's not in your diet it's not healthy to eat. This is regardless of the fact that the norm for dinos is don't cannibalize. Deinos aren't cannibals specifically, and no Deino fighting another Deino is lunging them from the water and dragging them in to drown. It just doesn't make any sense.

If you think that makes Deino too easy to grow, it's food source from like 45% and up is people dumb enough to drink in deep water that so happen to drink next to it. Literally the amount of things that have to go right for a Deino of any size to get a meal the right way is quite a huge amount. Hence why cannibals are so common currently, Deinos are the only thing that are consistently near water, so are going to by default be the main food source. When AI starts to drink this should help. Better map design could come in handy as well. On the note of it's actual food, it shouldn't have a preference, since it's so opportunistic by design that giving it such a handicap is nerfing it way too hard.

Restating what I said, Deino is specifically made to eat things that come to take a drink by the shore and drown them. 90% of the community wants to make it useless at doing literally anything else.

Deinos do not go drink at the shore, they don't have too

and you can't drown them

then what's the point of attacking things on shore

no no do you see what I'm saying

it's not Deino's play style and therefor should be discouraged

nothing about killing other deinos includes ambushing them and drowning them

That's a growth thing

fish can't sustain you when your big

yup, that's a bad thing

do they eat random babies floating by?

not the point, sorry

do you at least see what I'm saying

If your playing Deino as intended, eating other deinos is not what you are doing

it is not your niche, not your play style, and should be discouraged

Beipi and spino can do that job for them

but why

what part of balancing Deino to be a niche animal to kill things at the banks includes swimming around slaying fish and little deinos

and why should it be part of it's diet

besides "they do it IRL"

deino's diet should reflect what it's meant to do though

like everything else

that might include basically everything

this isn't real life

Deinosuchus had 30,000 newtons of biteforce if you want realistic not one shotting utahs isn't the right game for this

yeah I know it's weird but

it sure as hell isn't IRL

the in game labels are terrible

hopefully

put deino biteforce less than a human

yikers

anyway I stand convinced that Deino shouldn't be an exception to diets

it's diet will be broad

but it won't just get away from diets

in it's entirety

why

you can't keep using IRL as reasons

you need balance, gameplay usefulness, and in game reason

HAHAHA

they made it Deinosuchus in name only already what you on about

ptera

there ya go

ok that's better than "crocodiles did it"

what should baby deinos eat

only fish?

bugs perhaps

I posted this idea and it got lots of thumbs up, and then someone else posted it and it got crapped on

Make Deino's speed on land linearly go down

Deino's preferred habitat is water, so bigger deinos should have control over it

which means smaller ones need somewhere to go

retreating to land is perfect

they escape the big deino but are disadvantaged

so that you have to see an adult deino coming from at least 40 meters away?

they currently do

not stam but

they are faster on land

I've tested it

speed on land peaks at like 68%

then drops down a bit

Legacy giga flashbacks

anyway yeah

legacy did it pretty good actually

I played the giga side and learned it damn well

but

rex can win head on usually

if it does a certain thing I can't get around

but 2 gigas

murks a rex

which I liked

it makes sense

honestly I like the idea of making rex NOT a brawler

almost like deino

big chomp dead from the bushes kinda thing

look it's an immobile terd most of the time

it's got big legs but for the love of god shouldn't be able to sprint

maybe a jog

rex is by no means built for movement

Don't get me wrong if it lands a bite you should be boned

l i k e d e i n o

I meant deino weak bite not sarcastically restating myself

but really in a fight against a giga

if the giga gots jukes

rex shouldn't be able to keep up

a stray hit might mark the giga useless

so you say rex better than all is a good thing

1v1 with anything rex wins?

explain how

people don't like legacy rex

it wins against everything

with little to no skill required because big bite go brr

you think that's a good thing?

look I'm not trying to downplay the rex but

it's not some sort of god

or mega brawler

it's a slow fat tank

you damn sure can't get hit by it

how is that fun for "almost anything"

make it skill based

all 3 apexes

fighting any other apex in 1v1

is up to who's better

a bad rex might not be able to work around it's obesity issues and will loose to a giga or spino

a good one might be able to land solid hits consistantly and give no chance to an opponent

actually I kinda gree

giga then

best one wins

giga has the mobility and bleed advantage

rex just big hit

how

what can it do to counter the giga's hella superior mobility

giga isn't a paperclip

things still turn slow, I'm not saying it should happen but

there is no way

to make a rex turn around fast enough

with an alt bite

and not look insanely stupid

I don't know what to do with that

I don't stand for rex loosing a fight because something got behind it

but I also think it shouldn't spin around like deino

it better not*

I should say

so let's say

rex doesn't have an alt bite that turns around

kinda like carno where it just

shouldnt

and it turns as fast as deino does

not including alt bite

like normal turn

what should rex alt bite do

carno alt bite is already broken

they made it slow so it's fair

and that makes it so mo

because carno shouldn't turn fast

my personal opinion is that rex isn't right for The Isle maybe

IRL it's size would scare the small packs away

and it uses it's bite and size to have one on ones with some of the tankiest animals ever to exist

but

I'm writing my thoughts as I have them alright

People are smarter than dinosaurs

what did rex have going for it to defend against a pack of allos

that doesn't apply if the allo is behind it does it

look image this

4 allos surround a rex

what's it do

sprint forward look left and hit all of them?

xD

yeah that was a legacy joke

the point being, nothing

it does nothing

[hollow canyon]

how is it broken? Carno's alt bite is borderline useless

[mighty knot]

^^

so then

broken in the sense that

[hollow canyon]

Oh, I see

[mighty knot]

it's useless, stupid, and looks like a bug

[hollow canyon]

Yea it's useless, needs some buff or something

[alpine plover]

Exactly

[mighty knot]

just needs not to exist tbh

there's literally no point for it

carno hunts small things and uses speed to kill them

no small thing is gonna have trouble dodging an attack with a 3 second windup

and most small things will use the time to counterattack

[alpine plover]

Dryo

[mighty knot]

..?

nothing the carno is meant to hunt has an issue dodging anything

[alpine plover]

Oh wait I read that wrong

[mighty knot]

XD

fr though, carno alt bite might as well not exist

it's not "defensive"

because if somethings attack you and you do that

your giving it a free opening

[alpine plover]

Honestly most balanced creature is dryo

[mighty knot]

it's either small enough like a utah to dodge it and continue attacking

[calm ibex]

just as pointless as normal bite for deino

[mighty knot]

or big enough not to care if it gets hit

[alpine plover]

I mean for something small I think it should stay that way to make it viable

[mighty knot]

blob saying facts

My point: rex alt bite would be so stupid

now that we have more people

can someone tell me why "biteforce" is a valid argument when I ask what a rex does against a pack of allos?

[alpine plover]

Idk it seems to help dryo not just be free food

[mighty knot]

dryo biteforce and stats isn't everything in a fight

rex traded in everything else for big bite and fat

but while it attempts to catch a nible allo

3 others are eating it's legs and grappled to it

then again allo is supposed to be niche

it's just an example

let's try gigas

[alpine plover]

I mean I guess then Rex would need alt bite

[mighty knot]

rex doesn't have any

I'm saying

in a fight like that

agility and turn speed matters more than biteforce and weight

rex doesn't have agility and turn speed

it would loose

ok

[alpine plover]

Hence why it would need alt bite in that case

[calm ibex]

i'm hoping trample dmg will take more important role in fights like that

[mighty knot]

yes blob that

not alt bite

trample

[alpine plover]

True

[mighty knot]

you literally can't give rex an alt bite

it would be like carno

or worse, it wouldn't

[alpine plover]

I mean it’s not very logical but perhaps it’s alt attack, would be a slight body thrust

[mighty knot]

great idea

[alpine plover]

Like if a allo is on it, it can just throw it off

Or something

[mighty knot]

look I'm just saying there's nothing you should be able to do to turn around fast and bite

without some serious stretching of imagination, physics, and a little stretching of bones

[alpine plover]

Perhaps alt shouldn’t just be bite focused. What if carnos alt was a quick smack with its head to stun you for a short time

[mighty knot]

alt attack*

like teno

[alpine plover]

Yes

[mighty knot]

dryo is just convinced that "biteforce" solves every problem

or seems to be

according to them rex should win a 1v1 with anything no matter what

[alpine plover]

I mean at least it’s not free food

[mighty knot]

I said with giga: Whoever is better wins

thats much better than legacy

rex isn't some god, it's not a strain

[calm ibex]

ideally that would be the case, so we have reason to play the damn animal this time lol

[alpine plover]

I mean giga should be able to just walk away like in legacy so that it doesn’t have to fight rexs

[calm ibex]

that is not enough when it comes to apexes, since apexes wont just die outside of combat

[mighty knot]

in legacy sure

[alpine plover]

Giga is the tracker and find you apex, not the brute force Rex

[mighty knot]

giga is the tactical one

speed mobility, bleed, and not how you spell that word

rex just big chomp and is fat

[calm ibex]

this will result in mass amount of rexes and gigas getting picked off and gigas then also rerolling to rexes

[alpine plover]

Rex gets more power, giga gets slight mobility

[mighty knot]

I wouldn't even say slight tbh

giga was like a big allo that mans was built different

[alpine plover]

Idk not too much so it’s not that fast when walking

[mighty knot]

yeah

[calm ibex]

And how did that turn out previously? even niche matches that were supposed to favor giga such as cama & shant, rex ended up being much better that giga at everything outside of trotting

[mighty knot]

your rex won't shatter legs with tail bites as my giga speeds around it anymore

more agile than rex

[calm ibex]

the whole bleeder niche is shit to be honest, since you need time to finish off your opponent, but they can just bruteforce you down if they feel like it before bleed does its trick

[mighty knot]

giga isn't only bleed though

it's bite isn't weak it's no dilo

no duh

let me restate what you said earlier

rex should win in 1v1 with anything

any apex*

[sinful cove]

“It should be your opponents fault for not paying attention” to the faster predator with a socketed pounce who is almost always in a group?

[mighty knot]

rex is another animal

not the best animal

another

knowing how much the devs favorite it, probably

sadly

[calm ibex]

if balance is poor yes

[mighty knot]

If the devs fail like they did with legacy

yeah

rex will be the best

[calm ibex]

look how we got water rex when deino was supposed to be ambusher lul

[mighty knot]

opinion of course but

the idea of rex being dominant is worse

rex and giga should be equal to a point

spino just vibes in it's own corner

[calm ibex]

for real though, how i wish the people behind the balancing of this game were actually passionate and invested into it

[mighty knot]

because rex is good?

I once again restate myself

it needs to be about who's better

like what

legacy rex is too good

too many things on it's menu

with no skill required

[calm ibex]

balancing sauropods is another massive elephant in the room, how do you balance something that cant punish hit and run tactics?

[mighty knot]

^

that's not a valid argument

I just don't understand

strains aren't gonna be balanced

that's quite simply the point

nothing should be balanced against strains

sauropods can't just be free meals

and when the question of how to balance them is brought up, "don't play it" isn't an argument

the question isn't should you play it

that

is not the point

the point is how to make it fun for the people who want to play it

are you ignorant enough not to see that's the goal?

look that's what the isle is trying to do

that's an opinion

your opinion means jack when we're talking about how to balance something

give me a good reason WHY rex should dominate everything

besides "it should"

besides "it should"

[calm ibex]

irl sauropods main defence was probably carnis not just bothering to attack it? What stops allo from nibbling on brachis back foot for 40mins

[mighty knot]

blob can you just confirm that I'm being ignored here

[calm ibex]

i'm not a fan of making rex just counter giga like in legacy, since in the end of the day there are tons of rexes around. What are gigas supposed to do then? The whole point of making apex carnivore is to be able to combat other apexes, to have the maximum stakes and excitement. If you remove that and make giga in this case just lose by default then what do you think happens from player behavior perspective? There is ZERO reason to play giga

[mighty knot]

man spitting facts

giga and rex are the island's 2 terrestrial carnivore apexes

they should have an even fight with eachother

and differ fighting other things

[calm ibex]

and gigas niche is to bleed out opponents that cant punish you properly. what stops rex from doing the same effectively replacing giga on every field, which is what happened on legacy

[mighty knot]

no ambush

how is that good balancing

[calm ibex]

These 2 animals needs to be able to compete with each other

[mighty knot]

yes

in a one on one fight

deathmatch style

whoever is better should win

that makes for more enjoyable gameplay for both parties

[calm ibex]

^

[mighty knot]

and an fun way to spar with friends

[calm ibex]

and that is the problem

[mighty knot]

correctamongo

with blob yeah

[calm ibex]

you could just remove giga from playable then, it lost its purpos

[mighty knot]

or remove rex why not

[calm ibex]

rex just strolls around hunts same things as you do more effectively whilst you cant do shit about it

[mighty knot]

one apex shouldn't be dominant

which means

neither should hunt the other