balance-feedback-discussion

[dusky surge]

honestly allo's kinda... bad

like it is almost entirely carried by either small game hunting or using packs to grapple

[torn egret]

Not really, carno has the issue with the charge bug, where it’s not pouncable.
Maia is not overpowered by any means, although it is in a pretty good spot.

[dusky surge]

no, maia is insane, and im genuinely shocked no one else is talking about this thing's actual terrifying consequences on the roster

[torn egret]

A lot would be fixed if that lunge wasn’t used as a crutch like you said, but it’s also because so many other labels have more measures to deal with them, like power swing etc

[torn egret]

It’s really not that bad. Doesn’t have super great breed resistance, sure it’s kind of quick, but it’s really just a matchup thing.

Troo loves hunting Maia lol

So does raptor.

A single allo should struggle against a Maia without a pack because it is a packed animal.
Not to the same extent as troo or raptor

But it’s supposed to be punching up in weight

Not everything is supposed to be super viable solo

[dusky surge]

bleed resistance is its only "weakness", and it has the same bleed res as allo, rex or literally most of the roster

a prime maia in quad outpaces an adult tenonto in speed

[torn egret]

So?
It also requires players to stance swap in order to really get mobility and close-up fights and brawls

[torn egret]

I mean, it is a larger herbivore, there’s nothing wrong with it being faster

[dusky surge]

so rex being too agile is bad, but maia being too fast is fine?

[torn egret]

It’s not that strong against things its size are larger though.
It doesn’t have a ridiculous stamp, so you can track and run it down

Comparing it to Rex is just not the same Imo

[dusky surge]

maia or carno being left out of conversation because it isn't the hot new thing is really frustrating to me

rex and allo need nerfs and adjustments, for sure, but i genuinely cannot believe people accept maia's current disgusting state just because it isn't an apex

or isnt as popular

[torn egret]

What do you mean by disgusting state?
It’s really not as strong as you seem to think it is.
It’s meant to be able to run away from things trying to kill it, it has a very large pack size because it’s going to end up being targeted by larger predators as the roster expands

[dusky surge]

it just murders those things lmao

it can slaughter any midtier or lower and easily outrun ANYTHING that can stand up to it

[hasty coyote]

Because most Maia players can’t use its kit well. So even with this monster, they’re mid.

[dusky surge]

true

[torn egret]

I don’t see it murdering almost anything.
If a player chooses to run down a cera then so be it.
It’s going to be a bully to anything smaller than it.
It being able to run away is totally fine,
Like I said, I don’t see an issue with it because it does need to have some sort of deterrent.
If you ambush it, they can’t use it speed to get away from you
If you are smaller than it and solo, of course you’re gonna get stomped

It’s fodder for anything that catches it I surprise, and it is larger than it or a pack.

[scenic crystal]

Today we killed three Allo Primes, Maia and Medium, everything is possible, but the problem is in the pins in this game, there is no anti-pin, you play Dibble Prime and two Allo are pressing you and you die for full HP, the same with Rex

[hasty coyote]

Essentially:
maia running down things is perfectly fine because it could get outnumbered or just beat by things larger than itself.

Meanwhile Maia has some insane speed to just ignore said bad matchups.

[torn egret]

Pins only became an “issue” when Rex and allo came out
Troo has long since been the victim of raptor pins lol.

[dusky surge]

rex juvis running down everything is perfectly fine because it could get outnumbered or just beat by things larger than itself

wow this argument doesn't work if you apply it to literally anythigng else huh

[torn egret]

Pretty much.
But that forces players to also take into consideration whether they should be picking fights or prioritizing survival

[dusky surge]

oh yea, and rex has bleed res weakness, so it's fine how it is

[torn egret]

Well, yeah, it’s a herbivore instead of a carnivore that becomes the largest in the game.

[torn egret]

The one thing I don’t like, is using extreme examples to try to justify something else. Not everything has to be balanced equally in a game about survival. Counter play shouldn’t just be about what buttons I can push to win, it has to be more about about where do I place myself myself, how do I live? How do I move around etc.

Rex’s having a bleed weakness only matters if it’s up against something that can inflict as much damage as it can like a stego

[dusky surge]

im using literally the same examples

they are about as extreme as the examples used for maia

[torn egret]

Using the same examples doesn’t mean they apply equally

[dusky surge]

if you think they're extreme, then i guess we agree on maia lmao

[torn egret]

Not at all.

You’re just using extreme examples because you can’t formulate any argument besides this is stronger this way so this also has to be strong in this way or this has to be weak because something else is weak

It’s just an argument full of fallacies and holes because it does not apply equally.

[scenic crystal]

trodon omgg

[torn egret]

Best apex you can’t change my mind lol

[scenic crystal]

How much time do you spend growing a trodon and, for example, a stego trick that is not mature and prima and you lose several hours from a pin that is 0 skill

[hasty coyote]

The fact you think that’s acceptable is the problem.

Being “weak” in one matchup doesn’t excuse it being oppressive in other matchups.

Not to mention the fact that it isn’t weak in any matchup, it just can’t fight certain things (like how literally every playable functions) but can EASILY escape them.

[torn egret]

It’s a matchup thing imo. Yea getting pinned/grappled sucks. And if the retaliation system gets changed maybe there will be ways to escape or deter someone from using it off rip in a fight

[dusky surge]

saying i "can't formulate any argument" because it isn't an argument you personally agree with is genuinely just frustrating to even engage with. explain to me how im supposed to even converse with you if im not allowed to use the basic principle of equating one thing to another to better illustrate my point

like give me a list of acceptable ways to keep this conversation going that appeases you rather than dismissing me and my ability to hold a conversation

[scenic crystal]

I have prima allo now and it's just boring, better to play is carno, more skillful and not always pin pin

[torn egret]

And I guess that’s where we might have to agree to disagree.
Some things are strong, but can’t fight things bigger than it, so you let it escape. Dibble is in the bad spot rn because Rex can generally overpower and outrun it for example.
If it sees you and runs away then it’s on you for not getting close enough before you engage, or just being unlucky.
It could use tweaks imo with how fast / often it can stance swap etc,
But it being something that can choose fights isn’t always a bad thing.

[torn egret]

The problem that I have when it comes to discussing certain things with you, is the fact that you immediately go to extremes and try to make everything equal in its own right.
I don’t believe this game will have a healthy balance if you make everything either able or forced to fight, even when it can’t win.
Like I get where you’re trying to come from, but it feels like very often you try to pigeonhole an entire argument off of one principal.
We were talking about how Rex was strong because it’s easy to grow, and, it has a very fast turn speed.
You immediately turned it over to a conversation about Maia being strong, then try to use the argument about a herbivore that is unable to really fight things bigger than itself, but is able to run away, with something that can outrun and overpower everything that it fights
It’s not about a list of what pleases me for whatever, it’s just the way you tend to make an argument that just seems to avoid the entire point of the original conversation.

[hasty coyote]

The speed of Maia running away is not the problem, that I’m perfectly fine with and actually like about it.

The issue is that it has too much combat potential WITH said speed. It has more hp and damage than Diablo while being faster than Omni. Its power is genuinely crazy and allows it to just run down anything smaller than allo.

Even before the damage buffs it was sleeper op

Now it’s just flat out op

[dusky surge]

i dont want maia to have an equal fight with rex or whatever you seem to be thinking here

i want it to not be a literal walking god that overpowers basically anything smaller than it as adult/prime

i also dont want rex to be that, but at least rex is slightly more tame as adult than maia is tbh

prime rex is disgusting tho, no excuses for that thing

i genuinely still think if you nerfed prime rex speed and literally nothing else, rex itself would seem a lot less... problematic

obviously rex needs more than JUST that, but i genuinely believe prime rex alone is causing a great deal of rex complaints

[torn egret]

I think we can probably agree, there are a lot of things that are far too fast, compared to a lot of the counterparts that it should be afraid of.
Maia can do a lot of damage, and can use it speed in general mobility etc
But something I have brought up before, but not specifically about Maia, is how fast everything in the game tends to accelerate or decelerate.

[dusky surge]

a quad maia can arguably fight and kill anything smaller than an adult stego with ease while also outrunning it, its crazy

[torn egret]

Once again, that is not what I said. I wasn’t trying to make it an argument about how you thought that.
The discussion went astray because you brought up how strong Maia was in a conversation about Rex.
Fewer people play Maia in part because of Rex being too strong ofc,
You don’t have to bring up the balance of everything else in the game, just to bring up concerns with a single playable.
Rex is far stronger than Maia is by comparison, and has different issues.

[dusky surge]

honestly as most of the game's roster, i'd be more scared of an aggro prime maia than an aggro prime rex

[torn egret]

Maia is super strong if it manages to knock something down, but that doesn’t mean make it super weak to things its size.
Raptors and troo easily counter them imo, and I’ve done it too.

[dusky surge]

especially given i dont play apexes much

[torn egret]

Sure, but once again, they have just as difficult time surviving pack animals as do solo things it’s size has fighting it.

It’s just not as big of an issue to me, but I get for “PvP” balance it’s a hell of a bully. But doesn’t do as well in cramped spaces, forests etc

Sometimes in order to counter something, you just have to avoid it or the areas it can be in

That’s just how in my opinion, survival games can also be balanced

Bigger things will always be stronger, and there’s just not a lot and it’s weight class that can counter it.

Allo is close, but Maia crazy cc too. Allo is also pretty pack dependent

[dusky surge]

"Bigger things will always be stronger"

why even say this if you're also complaining rex is too strong what

i can just say that and boom rex is fine

its also a survival game and you can just never get close to a rex and wow your fine

(except that isn't how it works nor should it be how it works)

avoid rex and areas rex will be in and you've countered it

[torn egret]

Once again, you’re taking it out of context. Bigger things will be stronger, but the ways in which they are stronger matters.
Once again, this is why I dislike the arguments with you, because you try to flip everything as if it’s an equal argument.
Rex has issues in the fact that he can outrun, overpower , and easily tracked down targets.
Maia bullies, anything smaller than it, or its size.
But that could be said for almost anything.
We can probably both agree that the map has a lot of issues in preventing counter play from things like this too.
But when it comes to just individual balance, Rex is far more an issue.

Maia is a mid tier. It should be able to fight well against things, smaller than it, and equal numbers, but that doesn’t mean they can’t escape fights that it has no right winning.

This is what I mean by using extreme examples, because they are not equal in this specific argument

Should smaller tears be able to get away from things like a Maia? Absolutely. But more often than that you have to use the environment to be able to do so.

[dusky surge]

its not even remotely extreme, just because maia is a midtier doesnt make it less applicable to the same criticisms rex gets

[torn egret]

But it does not get the same criticism.
That’s where you and I disagree

[dusky surge]

its the same game

they should be held to a universal standard of balance

one animal should not be balanced as if it's in an entirely different game

i dont care if dilo would be strong in legacy or PoT, if it isn't good in EVRIMA, it isn't good

[torn egret]

And this is where you and I will have to agree to disagree once again. Because I don’t think that this game should be balanced the same across the board, because this is not a PVP game.
It’s a survival game.
Things need to be balanced so they can either choose to fight, or run away, unless the other player has done something to give them an advantage. Like ambush, use terrain and environment.
If everything is balanced in the same ways, then this will just feel like POT.

[torn egret]

Dilo does need some love. Clones issues, poor mobility with a drift that isn’t great etc.
But once again, that’s an issue with a specific creature

[dusky surge]

it is inherently a PvP game and I think people mix up "being PvP" with "being an arena fighter"

it is not an arena fighter or hero shooter, but the game is and SHOULD be PvP

otherwise the alternative is 500 AIs so that carnivores don't have to PvP

PvP is not a "one size fits all" terminology

[torn egret]

You see, PVP is an aspect of the game.
It is something that is inherent when it comes to survival.
You and I almost agree on what PvP is.
But where are you and I disagree, is how much of a factor it should be
I don’t agree with the fact that this game should be about PVP
Because not everything in this game is meant to fight other things. Hypsi has spit so he can blind and escape.
Eventually, dryo will have burrows.
But not everything in this game fights in the same way. So you can’t balance it or PVP, because there are some playable ones that inherently have certain mechanics and abilities to given an advantage in certain situations.

[dusky surge]

in fact, PvP is what has always made this game special, people just lost what about the PvP was so special for this game

it wasn't the "epic cool fights for my montage", it was the fact that everyone played a greater part in an ecosystem, and you were subject to being killed by another player for their next meal

people have become obsessed with the fight, which to me has never been the point, rather the hunt. Players using their tools to survive and outwit another player

hence why I don't like prime rex, prime maia or prime carno. They're just death, there's no "PvP" or any dynamic to it, you just die to them if you happen to be a certain species that exists within their line of sight. That sucks, that's not the spirit of the game, it's just dull

[torn egret]

The problem right now as well, carnivores are just far more popular to play because they’re cool, and everyone likes the idea of hunting.
Making herbivores a bit of a dying species across the board, save for the larger ones

PVP is absolutely the coolest part of this game,

There’s something that really gets the blood going when you’re in a fight that you should not win, and you either escape or manage to do a reversal

But that doesn’t mean that everything has to be balanced in the same manner.

But the fight itself should not be the focus.

The ability to escape,
The ability to the deter,
All these lead to the experience of the survival of being a dino in a world that is oppressive, scary, and dangerous

The reason why I love this game and I play this game, is because of the situations you can find yourself in.
I’m a maniac anyways, I’m a Troodon main.
And even I dislike how the venom fog is so oppressive right now

Because for me, not every fight has to be fair, but you should either have a way to leave the fight, end of the fight, etc.

When you try to balance PVP so that fights are fair, an inherent difference begins to show itself as the playable dinos get bigger

Because at some point, this will just turn into legacy where everybody is playing Apex’s, larger tiers here because PVP becomes their focus, and the amazing aspect of the survival horror that this game could also be about has slowly been forgotten

Survival has become so easy and mundane, that all people have left to look for is the PVP

So when some things are just inherently better at killing things, they become popular.
But no one really struggles to grow anything, because there are ways to cheese* the current survival system

In my personal opinion, things that are good at PVP, should be more difficult to grow. That’s only because everyone treats hunts and fights as (normal) PVP.

but right now, nothing is all that difficult to grow, which does not justify how strong some things are

We all can agree that there are balancing issues amongst the current roster.

But some things are so much of an issue, that you have to let some things be broken in someway in order to justify their existence at all

But some things are broken when they don’t need to be

[hasty coyote]

That’s the issue we are bringing up. Maia has the speed to stop most targets from getting away, and with stance swap drifting, its agility is not bad even when hunting smalls. This on its own is not a problem, but when you combine that with the combat power to fight practically anything it’s size with ease, and it makes Maia a power house that can just run down most of the roster.

It’s fast enough to catch all but the fastest dinos. Its agility is poor, but combined with its speed, it can catch all but the very small and agile with ease. And its damage is so high it can trade hits with anything its size and win, and it has high enough hp to just face tank anything smaller. So you can’t run, you can’t fight, and most of the things it’s bullying are too big to have a gimmick or hide quickly.

There’s just no winning other than praying the Maia doesn’t see you, decides not to kill you, or is just really bad (which is surprisingly common Tbf)

[torn egret]

And I understand that.
But the way things are often balanced, often leads to issues like this. If you remove the ability to stance drift, have an increased acceleration or deacceleration time, or know how to use the environment to your advantage, you have options to survive.

A lot of the game balance issues come in from the fact that bigger things are inherently better.
And you’re right, if you can’t run away or out maneuver, something you just have to die. And that’s not fun at all.

But this is long since been an issue, but it’s being exasperated by the fact that there are now large larger dinos in the game they have made the issues more apparent

Very often, players don’t “live” in the environments their Dino should be in.
Because of the risk of things stronger than you being able to just kill you because they see you.

Changing the fundamentals of movement, adding things like time for acceleration and deceleration, giving things more stamina when they’re smaller so that they have a chance to out pace whatever is running after them, increasing stamina costs for certain abilities and attacks, would be something that has to be done across the board.

But it also has to do with the fact that players very rarely care about the environment they’re in besides the fact that they can find food and hide.

[scenic crystal]

I was running away from maia prima playing allo and managed to lose him in the forest

[torn egret]

This game is being pushed to being about PVP, because there is no environmental advantage or reason to be in the area that you’re in.

[torn egret]

Exactly.
You can use your environment to your advantage, but for what reason people only seem to use the argument whenever they’re fighting a pack of rap, or troo. Then they can justify water, camping, cliff, camping, etc..
But very rarely does the environment get brought up in terms of escaping

This game has so much potential to be more dynamic than how it’s currently being played, but part of the issue also lies in the unfinished roster, and the overall lack of PVE

It doesn’t help that a lot of people get into this game thinking it’s about fighting things as a dinosaur

Because that’s very often how it’s presented in videos, and how relatively simple the overall survival system is

[limber delta]

some pve needs to be lacking tho

such as dibble ai... gross era to play the game...

[torn egret]

Oh yeah, of course.
Adding any sort of AI dinos in the game, which just turned into fodder for the Apex and larger tiers as we saw with the Rex HT.
What I mean by PVE, are things like droughts and floods, affecting water levels and creating new temporary, rivers and creeks. The tides actually affected the coastline.
Behavioral cycles for nighttime and daytime, encouraging people to rest during certain times of the day, depending on what Dino they are
Ways to mark your territory, and benefits from having one. Interest species relationships. How cool would it be as a croc to let a PT pick your teeth and help you keep them clean lol.
We’re having somewhat symbiotic relationship relationships between herbi and carnivores. Like hypsi alarm bells,
Letting the environment be somewhat altered or destroyed based on what’s moving through it. Trees being able to be knocked over, bushes and shrubbery being able to be flattened and trampled if something large moves through it.

It is lacking right now because of how much development has to go into creating the roster first, and then creating the world in which they can properly engage in

[thorn mountain]

@shy ember theres a misconception of rex being faster than dibble, when its adult vs adult speeds they are both the same (if rex uses ambush) without ambush its alot slower than dibble, now a reduction in the ambush is cool though

[shy ember]

Oh well that’s an error on my part because from what I’ve seen and experienced it always seemed like rex was faster in ambush speed

Still though, I feel like the change is necessary, especially considering that there will be more playables in the future that would likely be unable to avoid rex and would also be unable to deter it

[junior jay]

In my oppinion most of the problems (for smaller playables) Come from the insane stam regen and trot speed

[shy ember]

True, rex has crazy stam management compared to things like allo. I don’t like this playstyle simply because I think it’s boring and doesn’t suit rex. Rex should be rewarded for bringing down dangerous herbivores like trike and stego, and rewarded for ambushing faster, smaller prey like maia and allo. It should not be able to simply out walk something.

[junior jay]

Facts

Out Walking should be for giga not rex

[steep otter]

The main issue with rex speed is its prime not the adult tbh

[finite shadow]

@drowsy forge complaining that the big game hunter can hunt big game lol

[bitter iris]

Ye it should be a big game hunter but I also hate pin

[gritty lintel]

You can hunt big game without mindlessly spamming rmb over and over again with some buddies. Allo has a claw swipe that dishes out a ton of bleed for big, heavy targets and has an incredibly fast bite (a little too fast IMO) to hunt smaller things. Being able to hitch a ride on a Diablo looks and IS ridiculous

[finite shadow]

It’s the safest and most consistent way to apply bleed and damage against larger animals, also the claw swipe isn’t that good anymore. If the animations actually looked good and bucking was working properly it wouldn’t be this much of an issue

[gritty lintel]

Yeah. It shouldn’t be. A 2.7 ton Dino should not be completely invulnerable to being hit by its opponent until the opponent bucks (which is also RNG and there is no cooldown on how often an Allo can pounce again) Doesn’t help that Allos often come with friends and it’s difficult to fend them off and use attacks while also holding E every time one of them decides to tap rmb

Theanimations look awkward and also it’s just ridiculous. Either the Allo would have to perform some sort of dance move and shuffle if a Diablo spins around and drifts or sprints at ALL or it’ll just stay in some sort of weird state where its feet float over the ground

It’s ridiculous that a 2.7 ton animal even has a pounce

[finite shadow]

Almost as if bucking and being pinned is said to be getting changes, there is also a cooldown on allos pounce

It’s ridiculous that dilo spawns close, it’s ridiculous that Herrera can climb, allo has it as apart of its kit and it’s not being removed

[gritty lintel]

This still doesn’t solve the fact that it’s a completely safe option to keep spamming on your opponent. Even with bucking changes which we know next to nothing about besides being more interactive… I don’t see how Allos pounce could ever be changed to be fun to play or play against. It’s not fun when an Allo taps rmb and you have to pause everything you’re doing and hold e or book it to some water so it can hop off and do it again a moment later. By cooldown, I meant in general, not if an Allo just fails its pounce.

I just can never see a world where this is a fun mechanic

Maybe something where you can run along your opponent and press a button that dishes out damage to your right or left depending on what you’re clicking… but it just feels stupid

If it’s pounce does get removed (which probably will not happen) then it obviously should have some compensation, and maybe more with its claws because I feel like its very underused. Maybe making it have directional attacks even when it’s sprinting would be a good change

[finite shadow]

That’s the whole point of the pounce to be a safe option otherwise anything else is practically guaranteed death against a larger opponent, the cooldown is allos poor stamina pool.

[gritty lintel]

I would much rather have a mechanic where an Allo can run alongside its opponent and tap a button to slash with its claws to the left or right then watch an Allo perform some sort of horseback riding technique on a Dibble that is smaller than it

[gritty lintel]

I just said it should have more abilities to compensate for that ability being removed

And buffs to the clawswipe bleed

Which can go without saying

[finite shadow]

Nothing else that gets added would do what they want the pounce to do

Clawswipe used to do way more bleed and people complained they bled out to fast to it so that’s not happening

[gritty lintel]

And what do they want the pounce to do? Because right now it is literally an oversized Omni

[finite shadow]

?

A safe option to apply pressure and bleed to large animals

[gritty lintel]

I just don’t know man. It shouldn’t be 100% safe to start shuffling alongside a rapidly strafing/drifting Diablo who is turning constantly. I don’t even know how an Allo would stay on it in that scenario.

I know pounce changes blah blah blah but I still don’t see how it’s fun for either parties… and it can’t be backed up by realism either like Rex crush can

Dilos venom is unrealistic but (if clones are working as intended.. and actually can be countered) is fun to play and play against. Herra climbing is too. I have never seen someone excited to rmb their prey

In fact I see more videos of players willingly using any attack but it’s pounce because of how stupid it feels to play and play against

It’s much more rewarding and fun to play as a bleeder. Of course the claw swipe bleed sucks right now but if it didn’t the fight would be much more engaging

Running in and out to time a clawswipe and also try to get your opponent to chase so you can bleed it more… I just don’t know why it was even given a pounce

[finite shadow]

lol

[gritty lintel]

There shouldn’t be a safe option 😭😭😭 your opponent has no counter but to buck. A 2.7 ton animal shouldn’t just get to be invulnerable whenever it wants to

[dusky surge]

i'd prefer they limit the pounceslots allo can use, i don't think it should get backslot, it never looks good

[gritty lintel]

I understand for Omni, because it’s incredibly fragile, but for a mid tier with so much health AND damage AND bleed ??

[finite shadow]

Really doesn’t do that much bleed anymore

[gritty lintel]

Omni also has to choose if it’s bleeding its opponent out or if it’s gonna try to kill it with raw damage. Allo does both

[dusky surge]

yea, but it doesn't do either particularly well on a base pounce tbh

[gritty lintel]

Id be fine if it had slots like Dryo dodge or whatever

[dusky surge]

allo in general is... weird

its awful solo, like genuinely awful

it is the most "you have to group up to do anything" animal, but its group power is also insanely oppressive lmao

so it's either exceptionally bad or extremely good

[gritty lintel]

I just don’t get what playstyle the devs are trying to lean it into. The bleed on the clawswipe sucks, so everyone uses the fairly ridiculous pounce, which also isn’t very good.. it’s not particularly agile, and its damage is good but it can’t really turn and get hits on its opponent

[dusky surge]

it's basically just 6.5 carno, again

in groups, it's unstoppable, solo, it's awful

[finite shadow]

You have to play perfectly solo otherwise your limited to stuff smaller then you

[dusky surge]

even then, it struggles against things larger than 50% of its weight like ceras or even carnos because pin threshholds

and its latch pounce damage/bleed is honestly not great

it needs to get that scaling, but bucking is so free and easy it's effectively impossible to scale

[finite shadow]

Personally never struggled against carnos or ceras but I can see your average player not doing well

[gritty lintel]

Which is why I think it’s claw swipe should be buffed and it’s pounce to have slots so people try to play smart and we don’t have Allos mindlessly spamming rmb☺️☺️🫰

[dusky surge]

but allos mindlessly spamming RMB isn't even the optimal way to play it

[finite shadow]

^

[gritty lintel]

Yeah I’ve seen an Allo solo 5 ceras. Not sure how they let that happen

[dusky surge]

it's just the noobgate because the narrative around pounce doesn't reflect it's actual power on allo

[gritty lintel]

I know. Indont think it’s in a good position right now and even in groups I see them lose to solo Diablos who are smart about where they decide to fight

[dusky surge]

allo players fall for the "pounce OP" narrative and they get screwed against actually good players

basically burning their stam for free

[stark ether]

Make allo pounce do like, 10% of the damage it does now and instead make it a tool for pinning in groups so your ally can safely bite them while it’s pinned.

Like, lions jumping on a buffalo aren’t really doing any damage to it. All they’re doing is bringing it to the ground so someone can safely go for the neck.

[dusky surge]

that's literally already what it does tho

it's low damage and primarily exists to pin/grapple and nothing else

[finite shadow]

Yea that’s current allo but with less damage on pounce

[dusky surge]

that's why the allo is so polarising

it either is exceptionally broken because of its busted group grapple or just ass because it can't pin its prey

[gritty lintel]

But then it’s forced into groups.. I feel like a 2.7 ton animal should be fairly reliable solo

[dusky surge]

which is the current issue with allo

it's already forced into groups to succeed

and playing against allo groups is exceptionally lame

[finite shadow]

Allo is bad solo but it’s not as bad as you guys are making it out to be imo

[gritty lintel]

I think buffing clawswipe and adding the slot thing Dryo has to it’s pounce would make people think of pounce as more of a teamwork thing and allow solo players to have some fun instead of being beaten up by things smaller than it

[stark ether]

I’d much rather allo claw swipe got buffed a lot, so it can do something productive solo.

And then make the stamina cost of the pounce/pin a lot steeper so they aren’t staying on you forever.

[finite shadow]

But it really doesn’t get picked on by things smaller then it unless it’s already greatly outnumbered by them

[dusky surge]

the issue is it also needs its bite looked at, because that tool is insane on it, it's exceptionally easy DPS

buffing clawswipe doesn't solve all its issues, it just creates more oppressive mechanics to it

[gritty lintel]

Im saying this from what I observe in game… Which are prime Allos dying to like two tenos who come out nearly unharmed for some reason

[stark ether]

A fast bite speed would be fine if it also did middling damage

[gritty lintel]

Idk maybe I’m only seeing ass players

[finite shadow]

Then the allos you are watching are bad

[dusky surge]

it does do middling damage, it just doesn't matter thanks to the DPS

[gritty lintel]

I don’t think I’ve ever seen a good Allo player in game so yeah probably

[dusky surge]

allo needs an entire power budget rework, stuff needs to be taken from grapple and its bite and put into other factors of the kit

[gritty lintel]

It’s hard to tell when a group of them doesn’t really need to use more attacks then pounce 😣😣😣

[gritty lintel]

Exactly. When I heard bleeder I got excited and this is nooooot what I was expecting

[dusky surge]

well, yea, that's how groups of allos win, grapple is insane

[finite shadow]

I’ll take complete control over clawswipe for grapple nerfs any day

The input lock is horrible to play with

[gritty lintel]

Yeah I’m joking, pounce is ridiculous and I’ve never seen a full group of Allos go after a trike because they’re so used to grapple

Which does like nothing on trike

[finite shadow]

Trike is also just a bad matchup for allo

[gritty lintel]

I don’t know what a good matchup is on Allo I’m gonna be honest

[dusky surge]

allo can, hypothetically, grapple a fg camara as 2 sub allos thanks to grapple maths

its DUMB

[gritty lintel]

What??!!!

[dusky surge]

that's not a joke btw, the scaling is just like that

[gritty lintel]

I remember when Allo first came out fresh spawns were grappling fg gallis

😭😭

Can my autocorrect worth with me for once

[dusky surge]

it has the EXACT same grapple maths as omni, despite having different pin maths, so the allo's weight does a ton of heavy lifting in pinning basically anything the roster could ever release

i would not be surprised if 2 elder allos could eventually grapple a hyperendocrin rex lmao if the maths stayed like this

[gritty lintel]

Allo just feels really rushed imo

None of its abilities are really. Solid.

[dusky surge]

yea, it has a very strange kit

[gritty lintel]

Groups of Allos don’t know what to do with anything that can’t be pinned so they get wiped. Solo Allos don’t make it past like 60%

[finite shadow]

Its animations were very disappointing

[gritty lintel]

Really wish it didn’t get pushed out with Rex. I don’t know if the devs have said anything about changing Allo specifically and not just pinning

[dusky surge]

yea ideally with pin changes comes allo rebalances

[gritty lintel]

Wish they would say something about it

[atomic raven]

how 60% of rex v trike fights should result

[bitter iris]

I’m trying trike wish me luck

[spice mantle]

well, if you wanna talk about realism rex should one shot stego with a bite in the head

[golden coral]

And the other way around too most likely, but I imagine neither rex nor stego players would be all too keen on the fight being decided in one headshot like that

[warm flax]

whats next? stego giving rex a deep puncture wound and rex will die with in 3 in game days due to infection?

[cerulean peak]

#balance-feedback message
Just pointing out why I disagree with this point:

Deinosuchus is guaranteed a perfect diet if it can catch a player, and since its mechanic is a weight-based near-guaranteed kill, utilising ambush (meaning 90% of players will never see you coming), and can grow up to 13.5 tons - the heaviest playable in the game right now - it doesn't need to have everything on its diet. Deinos can also eat rot and bones, two food sources only it and ceratos can safely consume (the former granting a single diet, and the latter filling all three).
It's annoying that the fish A.I. is so scarce, but starvation is a part of this game. Sometimes you get dealt a bad hand, and you die at 60%, but success isn't always assured.

Besides which (I mentioned in my feedback above this), austro, bary and spino will provide additional food sources for all stages of growth within deino's biomes, so there's no reason for it to get this "balance".

They may even be added to its diet, as well.

[golden coral]

To be honest, a deep wounds for bleed (like how fracture is a thing) could be interesting. Could be a way to get around the mutation, where that won't save you from internal bleeding (but you can still rest to slow it down and all).

[scenic crystal]

In reality, a rex wouldn't attack an adult, only a sick or old one, and it would be the same with a trike.

[wet ether]

The second most overpowered Dino can be killed by the most overpowered Dino. We should buff the second most overpowered dino to even out things at the top of the pyramid

[dusky surge]

i just don't understand how the answer isn't "nerf rex speed" (specifically prime rex, because normal rex can't do it lmao, it's literally just prime)

[wet ether]

Nerv allosaurus and rex, how does that sound?

[unreal crystal]

Based

[dusky surge]

i honestly reckon rex would be a lot more fine if they just nerfed the prime state lol

[torn egret]

I do think that it’s current kit (allo) is kind of ridiculous
I did another post in the general feedback talking about restricting its ability to use its pounce and lunge multiple times in a fight.
Rex overall has to be balanced, but the feedback was mostly regarding just the full grown stats. Since the prime stats are just crazy whack across the board.

[steep otter]

100% , allosaurus and ceratos dont get faster at elder why tf does the 12 ton therapod runs faster when he is at elder stage? A 12ton rex is faster them a 6 ton rex btw

[torn egret]

I do agree with you that allo is pretty strong.
Most of it is because of the kit it has. It’s ability to grapple things. It’s kind of ridiculous.

[dusky surge]

adult rex literally cannot outrun an allo ever, only prime can do that

unless the allo is young or frail i guess

[steep otter]

Prime rex is the the main issue

The adult rex speed stats are fine

[torn egret]

Right, which is why I also said that it’s mostly regarding the prime stats just being completely wack.
I don’t think that allo should gain as much weight as it does for its prime, since it speed is OK

Ambush for Rex is a little busted because you can sprint let go sprint to get a better turn and out maneuver allo

[dusky surge]

i think allo's prime is honestly fine, i think rex's prime should be more like it, more power/weight for a slight speed nerf

also murdersprint nerfing turn a little bit would be nice

y'know, an actual tradeoff lmao

[torn egret]

Acceleration and deacceleration would help with the turning overall
And it would be good to apply this to everything across the board

No reason for something that weighs 2 to 3 times or more than a raptor to be able to slow down and turn on a dime

The smaller playable’s need to have their mobility, since it’s one of the only ways to really avoid attacks that they can’t face head on etc

Herrera should be more mobile on the ground, and dilo would not suffer as much if larger prey were less mobile.

[dusky surge]

i think herrera's ground mobility is fine, and dilo has its own problems, nothing to do with the larger prey

i think nerfing things FOR dilo, rather than just fixing dilo's many, many problems would not be preferable

[torn egret]

I can agree with that, since its venom has issues.

Overall, the medium tiers and larger are just way too quick to turn and change speeds.

[dusky surge]

its more than just the venom lmao

hell, i think as long as dilo's venom works the way it does, it'll never truly be well balanced

but that's my hot take lmao

[torn egret]

During the day, it takes more damage to get somebody into stage three. But at night it lasts so long.

Time duration to be reduced at night but hopefully encourage them to actually mix in their own attack attacks with the clones.
It would be nice for them to be able to see their own clones, so they could time their attacks with them to use them as a diversion

[dusky surge]

that's not exactly what i meant, i think those are fine

i also don't like the idea of them somehow magically seeing hallucinations

[torn egret]

The issue is the free damage they get.
I would like to see it used more to help them. Keep the stage going instead of just using it for damage.

At least letting them know when the hallucination is going for an attack would help them time their own attack attacks better.

[dusky surge]

i agree with the free damage, but i actually had my own way of solving the issue that rewarded dilos for baiting attacks with their clones while still going in for their own attacks

Y'know what, I'mma post it and see how people respond

[torn egret]

I would even be OK if the clones just mirrored what the player was doing.
I.e. attack from the other side and copy the player movements and input
Making it harder to tell, which was the clone and which is the player

[unreal crystal]

I feel like a potential fun rework for dilo would be as simple as removing the clones entirely and giving dilo troodons old stage 3 fog + target losing significant agility/speed.... something along those lines within reason

[dusky surge]

okay i posted it in general feedback

[dusky surge]

eh, i'd hate to remove the clones, i think they're a very cool idea

also removing agility and speed just feels like you've designed dilo to do terribly against large creatures while being incredibly oppressive against smaller critters

[junior jay]

This would be a good idea to solve the problem

[torn egret]

Pretty sure he meant that the envenomed target was slower
It would help against bigger things, but small stuff would be absolutely destroyed. Raptor etc

[slim dragon]

I like it
It's very similar to the Nightmare from Dead by Daylight

[torn egret]

Anything to make dilo use the clones to help attack rather than being free

[dusky surge]

you sicken me

also who the hell is the nightmare

[junior jay]

Ok that paralyze would be just op

[slim dragon]

uh woah

[dusky surge]

what in GOD'S name

LMAO

[slim dragon]

Didn't mean to do that XD

It appears the gif's name is very long

Let me post a different one

[dusky surge]

venom stages are harder to achieve, you have to COMPLETELY reduce the target's stamina to zero AND it has to be stage 3

the amount of pre-requisites are there to balance it

[slim dragon]

https://tenor.com/view/trollface-skul-gif-26374804

[dusky surge]

the paralyze is also just a fancy instakill, so it is not CC

[torn egret]

Dilo already has clones that passively spawn when the target is in stage three btw
Isn’t stamina cost increase/steal supposed to be Troodons thing?

[slim dragon]

Freddy Krueger

[junior jay]

So if they get paralyzed its just over?

[dusky surge]

yah, but it requires every pre-requisite met

[junior jay]

Rip every apex

[junior jay]

So deino on land = free food

[torn egret]

Nobody likes it when your agency and ability to defend is taken away. Especially when some things have no choice but to run from. Dilo.

[junior jay]

Yeah theres that dilos can chase you forever

[dusky surge]

not really, no

you'd still need to get it to stage 3, and with its weight + nerfed venom application, that'd be tough

also, the deino can just be careful with its stam and try to kill you before you get there

[dusky surge]

you can still absolutely defend yourself

there is nothing stopping you

[torn egret]

Not really, not with the idea you have for the paralysis, even if it’s temporary

[dusky surge]

the paralysis is death

and it is not easy to attain at all

it is not a stun

[torn egret]

Increasing stamina cost as well is just kind of crazy for something that doesn’t take stamina to use ability wise.

[dusky surge]

it is just death

[torn egret]

Then troo should be able to whittle away stamina with its attack and apply the same instant death

[dusky surge]

it's to make it that the clones have value in baiting attacks

[dusky surge]

why? it's a different animal

it does damage, dilo does stam

[torn egret]

Because its initial thing was the whole stamina drain

[dusky surge]

no it wasn't

[junior jay]

Cant the dilos literally just follow some1 and they run out stam via crossing rivers, fighting others, etc and then the dilos can just have a free meal when prey is at 0 stam

[dusky surge]

you keep saying that but that has literally never been confirmed as the case

[torn egret]

Remember how you told me that this was not increased, bleed, but stamina loss?

When you were opposing me giving troo more bleed?

[dusky surge]

no

lmao i dont recall ever saying that

[torn egret]

We definitely had this conversation, I’ll see if I can pull it up

[dusky surge]

if you stalk up to the point that the prey is COMPLETELY exhausted, then attack at the right time, and manage to get them all the way to stage 3, I'd argue you're playing dilo exactly as it was intended

similarly, a rex can stalk a trike up to the point it's completely exhausted and then pin it

[torn egret]

@dusky surge

[junior jay]

theres 0 ways To survive then dilo has speed, stam, trot speed you can never escape

[dusky surge]

i literally never said anything about stam here lol

[torn egret]

Look at the rest of the conversation, it was just the easiest thing for me to link

The conversation I think was set around megalania

And how it would have prolonged lead times with its venom

I think it was also in the same conversation where you said if troo bled things out or stole stam etc it would “lose its identity”

[dusky surge]

they can only do it IF they reach max stage 3

if you're bigger, you can kill it

if you're smaller, you can escape it

[junior jay]

Other (prey) dino Will have to live without stam then since soon as it sits its going to go stage 3

[torn egret]

Yeah, the rework seems cool, but all it does is make it far more oppressive to things slower and smaller than it, then allowing it to use its venom to punch up in weight

It’s also incredibly complex to try to code that out for different stages

[dusky surge]

well, given how larger animals tend to be more stam inefficient, that's the goal

[torn egret]

Stamina is pretty forgiving right now, though.

[dusky surge]

what part is complex

[torn egret]

Increasing stamina costs, behavior of the clones, animations, the stun effect/ “blinking”

The entire thing is essentially a recode of the venom

And taking stamina away, or increasing stamina cost should be a thing for troo, since it has to use it stamina in order to attack a target, and most targets can just regenerate stamina pretty easily

Dilo is fast enough where it doesn’t need to take something stamina out away,

[dusky surge]

increasing stamcost would be easy

animations aren't really anything you need to work on, all you need is basic AI behaviour

stun effect WOULD be difficult, you could rework the pin animation for "paralysis" though

blinking, however, is easy as, a simple dark overlay on the screen for a set period

dilo also doesn't "take stamina away", i wanted to avoid that concept, it punishes you carelessly attacking

[torn egret]

I still don’t think it fixes the issue of dilo.
All it does is change the way at target sees things, but it doesn’t really help them do additional damage,

Focusing on the stamina, drain is kind of a mute point when camping just solve the issue

There’s already enough issues with the clones AI that they need to fix that first before they try to make the clones do anything special

And if venom kills things when it’s out of stamina, it would be better to give it to a small, smaller creature that punches up and weight rather than something that should be using it’s venom and hallucinations to enable it to do more damage

[dusky surge]

the point is to reduce the amount of reliance you have on the clones in the first place

they are no longer necessary for your lethality

[torn egret]

Then taking damage away from the clones isn’t the way to do it, you could simply have the clones mirror with the players’s actions are so that the target can’t tell which is real, which is not

[dusky surge]

that's WAY harder to code lmao

[torn egret]

But it would solve way more of the issues than your suggestion would

[slim dragon]

And way less reliable too

[dusky surge]

it really wouldn't

[slim dragon]

Try to go around a rock, your mirror is gone

[main helm]

i'm happy to at the very least have the their attacks cost an increased stamina since the clones are probably not going to get fixed consistently unfortunately

doesn't fix the clones but at least it's no longer a oh, guess my venom doesn't do anything now because he's on a rock or it bugged out

[dusky surge]

i wanted the clones to not be a necessity, but rather add to dilo's already existing hunting style of baiting attacks

[torn egret]

It doesn’t have to be on the opposite side,
Maybe you just have it so that the clones will choose to mirror the player or just run in based on environment.
Or let the player decide whether the clone just runs in or copies them

[main helm]

... i don't think that would be properly implemented even if it was figured out man

[slim dragon]

And THAT's supposed to be easy to code ?

[torn egret]

The players don’t use that right now, they use the clones for free damage because of how easy it is to get hit. By having the clones do damage and run at a target, the target has to choose which dilo it attacks , and if the dilo player is smart, they can keep the stages going

[torn egret]

It’s just adding a mirror effect.
But it was just a thought an idea. Making the clones have a better AI overall would be more beneficial to the player than completely changing the kit.

[junior jay]

dilo clones having ai is never going to work well

[main helm]

what's stopping me from facetanking a pachy then if i get double damage

[torn egret]

If he manages to hit you, and you get stunned, knocked over,

Pachy also needs a buff, but that’s a different conversation

[junior jay]

they cant make them look/act like players

[torn egret]

They’re trying their best, but they can only code so many actions.

[dusky surge]

exactly what would happen against stam dilo tho

like, you just beat it to death

[junior jay]

ik but it is never going to work well

[dusky surge]

it relies on you constantly whiffing attacks while dilo is landing them

you act as if dilo will get stage 3 instantly, it wouldn't, i explicitly said so

[torn egret]

It should be doing that now,
But the problem is is that most things can regenerate stamina pretty quickly. So this would only hurt the smallest creatures more that can’t afford to take the extra hits.

Your version of the clones doesn’t change the fact that if a player decides to face tank something with cc, they will just get knocked down flat and get killed anyways

If anything, it makes them more oppressive to play against
And stamina of stealing and drain would be better suited for smaller creatures.

[dusky surge]

it makes those smaller creatures MORE viable against them, since it's no longer "one bite then die to clones"

it is now one bite, run away, clones are annoying but not lethal, rest, safe

[torn egret]

But it doesn’t really need that anyways, because Dilo is already faster than a lot of the small creatures

Jump onto a rock

Most of the small creatures can do that anyways

[main helm]

dilo is kinda the easiest to juke out cause of it's ass agility

god forbid the speed of the alt bite

[torn egret]

Exactly, so having the venom be able to deal with damage to a target that runs away it doesn’t put itself in a safe place is fine.

[main helm]

at least in comparison to other small tiers / medium tiers

i don't want dilo to be a mini rex with a weird pin

[dusky surge]

but now you don't NEED to put yourself on a rock or somehow cheese out literal hallucinations

[torn egret]

Not only that, but venom is not exactly a fair thing.
Nor should it be

[dusky surge]

which to me, feels a lot more fair and immersive

[torn egret]

But that’s also part of it. There has to be a way to know that you’re in a safe place.
It’s not about immersion when you’re running from hallucinations,

[dusky surge]

but you'd still be safe on a rock

[wet ether]

The problem with the game rn is that its way too focussed on apexs when most dinos should be at mid tier. The game should mechanically force apex to clash with eachother instead of cooperating to beat down on whts beneath them. That said- Rex Prime Speed is ridiculous but even without is he is downright broken. Allosaurus Pounce is just a unfun pounce slob and doesnt fit his Weight. Give me a pachy il beat like every allosaurus i ever come across if he cant use his pounce

[torn egret]

There’s nothing fair or immersive about venom.
Anything that has venom to hunt and kill with often has been far more toxic than it needs to be

But it comes at the cost of trying to apply it.

[main helm]

bring back dibble and maia times as the chonkiest lads

[wet ether]

The game rn has way too much apex and pounce slob. The game should force clashes between apexs

[dusky surge]

so what's wrong with my venom rework, since you seem to believe that the stam drain is unfair lmao

[main helm]

being at 0 stam basically never happens against dilos unless you're an omni that tried to pin them and failed consecutively

[wet ether]

I also think that when it comes to audio design Rex is way too stealthy

[dusky surge]

yea, for sure, i think most people would have to be MASSIVELY baited to die to this special effect

[torn egret]

It doesn’t actually help a dilo get kills.
Giving it an instant win condition of a target runs out of stamina,

[torn egret]

It’s just a lot of unnecessary work to get a kill

[main helm]

yeah but that basically never happens and if anything it encourages you to try to learn to fight by baiting

[torn egret]

The hallucinations causing damage is fine.
What’s not fine is the fact that they don’t activate properly
And that players honestly would need to have the duration nerfed to encourage them to go in for more attacks.

[main helm]

even then, you said that the clones could either mimic the player's attack or not choose to right?
why would anyone ever choose to have them not to double their damage

yeah and since clones are an issue, having a baseline of the stamina costs being increased would be a safety net

[torn egret]

It would simply be as if there’s another dilo on the opposite side of the target
So that it has to pick one or the other to attack to at least get some damage off.
It’s not all that different from how the phones currently work, or they run in from outside the field of view

[main helm]

even if u don't like para's system, it still solves the problem that u also don't like which is that the clones are inconsistent

[torn egret]

But the clones are supposed to help the player do damage, and encourage the player to go in for their attack because the venom duration is increased every time you bite

Because the clones aren’t working right now, that needs to be fixed

The fact they aren’t spawning properly in the first place is not going to be helped when you just change their behavior

[main helm]

yeah but that's what u are suggesting tho

[torn egret]

The behavior of the clones can be argued after they spawn in properly. They’re not spawning right now, they’re trying to give an entire new system that doesn’t really give any benefit to the player is worse.
I know they aren’t spawning in, but their behavior needs to change anyways, so the players can use it for the purpose intended, which is to give them safe spots and times to hit

[main helm]

( with the attacks that have increased stam ) the player that is being attacked is going to try to be a lot more patient so that they won't excessively spam attacks cause eventually it would trickle them down slowly but surely, this would encourage anyone to try to go in for a bite instead of being nervous about not knowing where your mirrored clone is, if it's even there and if they don't pick you instead of the clone randomly

[dusky surge]

exactly, that's the idea

you'd think calc would like an ability that punishes attack spam lmao

[torn egret]

The mirror clown idea was only thrown in there as a potential behavior for the AI.
My issue with dilo is how long the venom lasts at night even when a target is not being re-envenomed.
This whole rework for the clones just being there and around the target doesn’t really help the player dilo much, because all you’re doing is removing its ability to do damage.
Current venom is you have to attack the clone or get damage, attack the clones and the target loses stam naturally.

[torn egret]

I would but the current venom, if it worked, would already do that too.

If anything, attacks tied to stamina like it is for Troo, would be better fitted for them, where subsequent pounces would steal stam away.
The stamina system rn is pretty lenient, since it’s only 2.5% for most alt attacks.

Halting regens while envenomed by dilo and troo would have the same effect

And stamina steal/lost when you hit an envenomed target would be best applied upon player attacks

[main helm]

aight u said one of ur issues with dilo is how long the venom can last, i think we can all agree abit there while i'm not saying to cut it in half maybe just some sort of sweeter spot where it's not an entire 5 minutes or however it is without anyone having to bite u i don't have much experience in that tho

[torn egret]

Troo venom lasts 45 seconds + 1s per pounce in the first 45s
So 10 pounces would make the overall timer 55, even if you pounced after the first 45s

Dilo needs the timer way lower if they can reset stage indefinitely

Or let troo perpetually keep someone envenomed too

But dilo time should be 2 min max without a bite

[main helm]

stamina steal however is a bit counterintuitive if we want the dilo player to be encouraged to attack, this would just mean that the other player will get very aggressive towards me so that i don't bite them the entire ass time and maybe this wouldn't be an issue against stuff like dibble or slower targets that don't have an insane range i'm just gonna say rex as an extreme example, i basically get no window to attack because despite landing a lot of hits on him beforehand, i now have nothing to help me because he is not punished for being trigger happy against me and i will never get a large enough opening to safely land a bite to get my stamina steal

[torn egret]

Then all you would have to do is make it so that no stamina can be regenerated while the target is envenomed

[main helm]

yeah which was part of para's suggestion where it wasn't so extreme either

[torn egret]

Meaning that successful attack will steal stamina,
Means needlessly expanding stamina hurts you cause you can’t get it back until you are no longer enenomed

But that part of his suggestion and the increased stam cost is too much.

No one likes being unable to fight, but spammed attacks can be done forever even at 0 stam

So that’s why he added the death when at 0 stam

But that doesn’t really do much besides heavily put the fight in the dilos favor.

But also, doesn’t do much besides encourage a player not to fight back

[dusky surge]

it discourages spam, you should still be fighting back lol

carno headswing spam would kill it very quickly lol

[unreal crystal]

Stop messing about with dilo venom ideas, just give him pounce ability already, easy

[torn egret]

Players will still do nothing besides run to cover and camp

[main helm]

gonna have to disagree with the last sentence of not fighting back, i feel like it'd actually really help most players to learn to be better aimed with their attacks or not to panic, apart from fights where one side is just bigger or caught them off guard, majority of the deaths are against people who panic attack constantly

[torn egret]

We already talked about how the span is just stupid and the other discussion channel. No point in bringing it up

[dusky surge]

okay? like, everyone already does that against so many things

[slim dragon]

Why give dilo pounce when it could have sparring

[dusky surge]

they do that against troodon, i guess troodon just doesn't work at all then

[dusky surge]

it's relevant to my idea, so i should be allowed to bring it up

[unreal crystal]

😂

[main helm]

both of these are wrong ngl, clearly it's just a pachy in it's growth stage, did you not see it's rock hard frill? give it a ram

[torn egret]

We still kill things that are camping water.
But that’s because we have the ability to pounce.
And relevant to your idea, doesn’t really matter because spamming attacks is ridiculous in any case.
The fact is that dilo clones need to spawn properly and the venom mechanic would work fine
The only issue I have with it is the timer.
You changing the entire venom mechanic to be about stamina drain, doesn’t help dilo fight larger prey items because of the relatively lower bite force.
Players would hate being forced to blink, get stunned, and then also die when they are at 0 stam. It would completely remove the ability to fight back.

[torn egret]

Not really. It’s just justifying spam attacks to counter something lol

[main helm]

i don't wanna lie to u man but i'm taking death at 0 stamina since that's almost always the case anyway in any other combat situation over i now have to flip a coin to decide if it's either the left or right dilo and take damage if i guess wrong
not because i did anything wrong you know, i just lost the 50 / 50
( that's toward the mirrored clones idea for context )

[torn egret]

Exactly. So letting the clones do damage even if the target is camping. Would help them out, even though it wouldn’t be by much because the limited clones they can send

[dusky surge]

but you could only do that at stage 3, which camping can just avoid that happening

[torn egret]

Idea for the behavior itself wouldn’t be needed if the current clones spawned. behavior would be fine if they spawn properly
But you say death at zero stamina is when it happens anyways,
There are very few times in cases where people actually hit 0% stamina
Troodon still gets 1 tapped by most things even at low stam, it’s just a boost to dilo itself as an example

[torn egret]

Yeah, and that’s fine. But if someone starts camping after you get them envenomed you at least have time to do damage.

The only way to deal with campers, is to make it easier for crocs to grow and access water around the map
And to have fewer cliffs and rocks that people can stick their body model into

[main helm]

yeah, since it's very few times where people hit 0% stamina, unless they were already like below 40% before the fight and they're a dino who's attacks are stamina dependant why do you say that it's ridiculous for 0% stamina to be a death sentence

[torn egret]

Because for a period of time, I believe that you could not alt attack if you had 0% stamina
And players hated that, and the developers said that things should still be able to fight back. Hence why they reduce damage as your stamina drop super low.

It will always be a death sentence, but there’s no point in completely removing a players ability to fight back in this use case for only one Dino

[main helm]

why not? they're gonna die anyway.

[torn egret]

Percent stamina, cause sometimes their opponents also have 0% stamina or are very low

[main helm]

it's not like the ability to fight back is removed, the dilo is just rewarded for doing a good job

[torn egret]

But it’s not going to be a fair mechanic for players on the receiving end.

[main helm]

yeah, if i get into a fight as anything while i have 0% stamina, i will always lose ( unless there is a clear power imbalance )

[torn egret]

No one likes being unable to fight back, which is why everyone is upset with pins and grapple right now.

[main helm]

the issue with pins and grapples is because it is instant.

[torn egret]

And Dio is able to punch up in its weight because of its venom mobility, so often times one hit from something larger than them will put them at lower health

[dusky surge]

yes it will? the players on the receiving end are only getting punished for wasting stam or missing attacks

you absolutely can still fight back, that was the core philosophy of the idea

[main helm]

there is no way for you to fight during that progress against a grapple or a pin

against this you can fight back by not being trigger happy

[dusky surge]

it rewards you reading the dilo and punishing it for predictability

[torn egret]

The players should be getting punished anyways for missing attacks, it should not just be a unique thing for dilo.
Stamina right now is pretty lenient especially with regen rates

[dusky surge]

the idea is to excentuate the punishment for missing with dilo

[torn egret]

And if the current venom worked you could say the same

[main helm]

players are punished for missing attacks by opening a time window for the other party to counter attack

[dusky surge]

no, not really

you'd still be standing back and spamming clones till kingdom come

because that's how current dilo is designed

[main helm]

if the current venom worked dilo just deals more than double damage.

[torn egret]

You have to either attack that clone or take the damage from the clone. If you managed to hit that clone before it can hit you, you don’t take any damage.

Sure, unless you do “double damage” but they’re by force is literally I think 80 full grown
Yes, it has spamming bites, but it’s not that big of a deal when you can still only land, maybe two or three of those bites before target can hit you with one of its attacks

The current timer for venom is too long, which is my issue with it
You only get a clone every 20 seconds

[main helm]

even if the clones worked fine that ain't ever gonna work unless you also fix hitboxes and desync, unless you are a teno that has a ranged tail slam, clone is always going to attack as soon as you're within hitbox

[torn egret]

That’s a different issue with the game, but not something that’s wrong with the venom itself

[main helm]

yeah but it once again ties down to the AI of the clone should not be given a mandatory role

.. or AI in general.

[torn egret]

But that was the whole sell of the venom,
The clones would run in and do damage

[main helm]

we're all victims of getting farted on by a boar since the dawn of time, you can't have the clones attack since it's always gonna be an issue

[torn egret]

The issue with the clones has never been the hit boxes for him, it’s been how easily spammed they are because of how long the venom lasts

Desync will always be an issue in a game with large models and high player speed

Better server performance would be better for everybody. But that doesn’t mean you have to restrict abilities for something that’s relatively squishy like dilo

[main helm]

i disagree there it's definitely because i can't even hit the clone cause it sometimes spawns on me and i don't get to hit them properly

[torn egret]

That’s an issue with the server, not the ability of the venom itself.

I get what you’re saying, but the desync is not something that should be used as an excuse to nerf

[main helm]

yeah but because there isn't a perfect world where that is fixed, the next best thing is not to have AI play a mandatory role

i'm not saying nerf, just an alternative where they are put as side helpers instead

[torn egret]

You’ll just have to disagree with the developers on how they designed dilo then if

[main helm]

not that you have to rely on them

[hasty coyote]

I think the dilo idea works well because it just reduces your margin of error. Which means if you panic spam, you die. But if you keep a level head and time your attacks well, you should be fine. Which feels really thematic for dilo. Plus it’s not like dilo is that hard to hit. Even if you give it some better agility, it still has a large hurtbox.

[main helm]

i will until they make dilo's elder trot speed faster than an omni's

[torn egret]

Dilo already outruns Omni lol
Fast in a trot would be busted

[main helm]

yeah, i'm sure we all like the idea of punishing the panic spam and that's what para's suggestion did it arguably the most consistently

[main helm]

that was how it was before the elder system, it wasn't busted
you could kill dilos because you outturn them

[torn egret]

Omni has never been faster than dilo.
Dilo has crazy speed. Omni was more nimble.

[main helm]

and it was also the only way of how dilo is getting away from omnis, now dilo is just getting tracked down because it can't get to a safe place and it can't outtrot them

[hasty coyote]

Though they could also easily make the clones actually function reliably but require effort to get (like make biting recharge the charges) and prob deal a bit less damage, and that would also work to make dilo much more interactive.

[main helm]

it is in trot speed at the elder stage right now

[main helm]

the charges only recharging on bite would be nice ngl

[torn egret]

All a dilo has to do is bite a raptor one time in the head and it’s on stage three. 2 to the body.
Then you don’t need to outro, your clones were supposed to be able to do the damage for you
And it’s something is tracking you, that doesn’t mean you have to buff it, that’s just the nature of animals that can attract you from your blood and scent lol

[main helm]

.. yeah that's the situation if it's against 1 omni

[torn egret]

That’s like saying because tracking exists, things need to be buffed so they can just outrun the distance tracking works at
And what do you expect to happen when you run into a pack?
For you to be able to just get away, Scot free?

if you get in a bad situation, you don’t always have the ability to fight back that just is the nature of the game

[main helm]

and i guess because in the nature of animals to track animals we aren't going to let dilo get away from a pack of omnis in any scenario, ever

it's not that it would be oh most of the time or sometimes you don't get to live

it's that you always wouldn't get to live, death on sight

[torn egret]

Just keep sprinting until you’re out of stamina, cross some water, good luck.
Because that happens to everything. Not just dilo

[hasty coyote]

Dilo’s speed advantage and stamina generally allows it to escape so long as it’s able to find cover.

[torn egret]

^
What this guy just said

[hasty coyote]

Tracking doesn’t always lead directly to the player (especially if you don’t run in a straight line)

[main helm]

aight the water is basically the only scenario and that is if they already lost sight of you because omni can also cross rivers a bit faster with jump

[torn egret]

At least you actually have speed.
Most things can’t outrun raptor at all

[hasty coyote]

You could also run along a path, you don’t drop footsteps on paths iirc

[torn egret]

I think it depends, but it’s something like that

[main helm]

it's just that this is such an extreme thing, it's like the whole being a dibble in legacy and trying not to be within a rex's stamina pool

there wasn't an issue beforehand with dilo having high trot speed because it lacks in other things so why nerf it

[torn egret]

How do you think troo feels?
It can’t outrun rap or dilo or carno,

Dilo doesn’t need a buff. It’s top speed, it’s supposed to be able to use it speed to decide what engagements it actually plays.
If you solo and you run into a pack, then you just die.
Unless you can get away.
If you have a pack, you can fight back.
You can’t balance it on the fact that you can’t one V many a pack of rap

[main helm]

yeah, troo is suffering from carno having a large ass hitbox lmao

but troo takes a bit less time and you're expecting to die a quick death

[torn egret]

I think it’s more to do with just the overall de sync, because of how fast Carno accelerates that it makes it very difficult for the server to keep up with where players actually are

[main helm]

aight holup correct me if im wrong

[torn egret]

You say less time, but we also only get to ever make a single mistake

[main helm]

but dilo isn't even faster than an omni nearly no
i looked this up really quick rn

[torn egret]

That’s at peak. 100% stats are different.

[main helm]

yeah troo is suffering from having the slowest pounce of all time too because of how it works but we all get to pity troo collectively that's nothing new

what are they then, i'm actually asking tho i don't know

[torn egret]

36.6 Omni
Dilo idk of the top of my head

[main helm]

still feels a bit weird omni gets to be faster and more agile

one thing i do know is that 36.6 omni was like a patch or two before, rn they upped it to be slightly faster than a cera i think, just slightly

[torn egret]

I think it’s fine, since the deterrent of fighting dilo should be the venom

[main helm]

ain't no venom if it just gets grappled by 2

[torn egret]

Troo isn’t suffering in my opinion, the pounce is fantastic, you just have to know how to aim it, most people die because they are lazy on the dismount
I have 1v1 everything in the game thus far using Troodon. Besides prime trike and prime Rex because they just go sit in the water before I can get them low lol

[torn egret]

That’s just unlucky
If you have a buddy with you, they can save you

Pins in the game have only become an issue for smaller targets

[main helm]

so it's still death on sight unless you have enough people to match their numbers

the carnivorous legacy dibble

[main helm]

das cool tho

[torn egret]

It’s like that for most of the playables tho

[torn egret]

In my opinion, it is the most skilled expressive playable.
As a high damage output, great stamina, it is only restricted by how well you move and attack

[main helm]

for the sake of our sanity we will not be talking about rex however
and the only thing i can think of rn is carno

[torn egret]

I just want spam abilities removed

If raptor and troo can’t fight on 0 stam, other things should not be able to have a ridiculous amount of spam attacks.

[main helm]

i dont think anything can fight on 0 stam man

apart from like maia only if it's against things that are smaller than it

[torn egret]

Alt attacks forever, with no increased cooldown.
Cera charge bite,
Teno lawnmower lol
Rex has shove and bites, stego tail swings.
The main issue with zero salmon, is that some things have all of their abilities, tied to their stamina, and some costs are higher than others for their output

If something is smaller than you and you are both out of stamina, you’ll probably win being the bigger Dino ofc.

But raptor and troo can’t fight since they have such slow bite speeds

Just as an example

[main helm]

rex's alt attacks are too fast, yes
stego's alt attack swings give a nice window to attack
cera charge bite serves mainly help when it is the one on the offensive ( let's be honest cera is never not going to be the best brawler )

teno is definitely doable with it's claw swipes, especially if you're a carno or a cera because then you can't get stunned
you just can't 1v1 it consistently as an omni

.. and yes i would imagine if two things are out of stamina, the dino that takes more growth time or it's primary strength doesn't reside in speed and getting in an out, it would hopefully win

but raptor and troo definitely have a too slow bite speed

[torn egret]

But it’s also how much stamina each Dino takes for it to taxes as well as regeneration.
I am personally in the belief that the system right now is very lenient, and favors the bigger stuff.
I’d like to see higher regen times for bigger stuff

[main helm]

definitely agree there

you are punished for trying to have a diverse roster of playables cause the big boys are plain better

[torn egret]

I just always find it funny,
If you wanna have something bigger, be just as mobile and travel the map just as fast as a small flavor, you have to give the smaller stuff some benefit.
What’s the longest regen time?
Like 3:30?
Troo has 2:55 seconds from 0 to 100% lol

[main helm]

not even the stamina regen, the health regen lmao

dilo has it the worst rn i think or can't remember rn

if you get wounded status as a freshspawn you are still pretty hurt by the time you hit 50%

[torn egret]

I personally believe, if you are bleeding, no stam or hp regen.
It would make fights a whole lot less about overcoming people’s ability to just passively heal

[torn egret]

That’s also part because of how fast it grows

Because you’re relative HP doesn’t change, but your HP pool does

[main helm]

eh, definitely not the stam part man lmao

now you just buffed the carnivores and nerfed the herbivores who majority of them already do stamina based attacks just get a plain nerf

[torn egret]

To be fair, I think that was just me messing up lol
Stam shouldn’t be affected you’re right

But hp, bleed heal time should increase based on times hit, not just damage values

[main helm]

it'd be a bit weird with balancing there but maybe

[torn egret]

When raptor was having that really high eight times bleed damage where he used to have, I think that’s what they were trying to test
The number of wounds plus the damage done would add to accumulate the timer

I definitely miss how raptor used to be a bleeder

Now people are saying that the only real bleeders are allo and stego lmao

[main helm]

allo is just still being tested

i gotta go man i'd love to argue with ya more but let's have a happy ending

[torn egret]

I want to bleed to matter again, I feel like too much of this game is about trading hits and spamming buttons
I would love to see Troodon get a chance to bleed out targets, and wounds to matter.
But all they really have to do to make that possible is have bleed resistance tied to overall stamina.

[main helm]

have a good one

[torn egret]

You too, buddy, was a pleasant discussion

[main helm]

we are not agreeing on dilo ever however

[torn egret]

And that’s fine lol
You’re allowed to be wrong 🤣

Jk lol

[main helm]

i will see you in the asylum, we'll get to be roommates

[torn egret]

😂

[golden coral]

You want to change troodon from damage to bleed, then?

[torn egret]

Not necessarily.
I think too many people just assumed that when I say bleed should be increased, assuming it’s just the raw damage output.
What I mean to say by this is that bleed should be a much greater threat.
I think a lot of players label things as “bleeders”, damage dealers etc.
There should definitely be cases where Troodon would kill a target because of bleed.
But most of the time it’s due to just raw damage output.

I always reference this concept art,
Because the venom made things convulse, shake, etc., as if he was going into cardiac arrest.
That’s why it’s bleeding from the mouth, etc because the venom is doing more internal damage than just the external
I would just like to see that bleed would worsen across the board for all creatures when they were constantly attacking running etc

Where even trotting would cause a bit more blood loss.

Or even just increasing the timer for bleed.
Having them tied to your stamina, where a lower stamina means you retain blood worse

[maiden temple]

That's how bleed used to be

Idek how the mechanic works anymore, too much info that contradicts itself

[torn egret]

Stamina apparently just affects time of bleed to heal. Not the bleed amount or resistance per tick.

I’ve been told stamina amount never affected the resistance though, but I feel like that’s not true.

But people dying to bleed caused bleed to be nerfed.
People complaining about 0 stam made alt attacks possible forever with only some damage loss repercussion

People wanted a lot of balance changes to fit the limited roster, and not liking how some matchups were.

But a lot of those older systems now are part of the issues with the game currently, or at least in part.
Carno got down sized cause cerato wasn’t able to deal with them well, now most of the roster would be (if old/accurate weights were used), too far apart to make any real sense for “balance”.
They’ve balanced the game for the PvP instead of the realism that was intended. Cause players like to fight etc.

[maiden temple]

As long as it affects bleed it's good enough, same with hunger/thirst. It makes bleeders stalk and wait for opportunities which is part of the thrill

[viscid mica]

@timber tusk you gotta drop the clams on a rock from a high enough height

@pure heath from the sounds of it you are struggling a lot with Maia

I’d recommend zig zagging and turning a lot when being chased by Maia they have horrific turn cap and bite them when you get a chance as they bleed out fast from running so much. Maia shove costs stam so if you keep juking them they are easy to escape. Also try to not be below 70% stam when just traveling around the map you’ll put your self in very bad spots by constantly being low stam for no reason.

Maias aren’t hard to survive or fight once you learn how to evade their shoves

@mystic isle Hera can dive most can’t

[slim dragon]

The game was never intended to be realistic, stop with that

Of course it has to be balances for pvp, since pvp is a big part of the game. And the players mentalities have nothing to do with that

[pure heath]

The problem is that I have full stam. I do zig zag, I run thru bushes but they still outrun me. If youre not in a jungle its hard to escape them. Cera stam is also horrible

[viscid mica]

It’s not actually it can easily out stam a Maia if the Maia runs out your entire stam they are cheating

If you juke them and jsut keep moving they’ll run out of stam ages before you do

[pure heath]

I was about 70% grown so my stam should have been higher aswell. I guess it was a cheater I met then..

[viscid mica]

Ya cuz unless you where doing a ton of damage to em tactile shouldn’t have kicked in and they shoulda run out before you

[pure heath]

I never bit them

I play on nerf so you can pause growth so it was likely 87% prime

[viscid mica]

Ya still sure at his fastest but you shoulda still out stammed him

I’ve out stammed Maias plenty of times

The only thing that can’t out stam is allo but that’s a easy fix 1 or 2 claw swipes and start running if they commit to a solid chunk of your stam bar they’ll basically be bled out

Maia has NO bleed res so they bleed out fast if they start chasing

That 2x bleed damage does work

[junior jay]

Your rarely going to win a fight against maia if ur playing nerf

[torn egret]

It’s a realism as best as they can replicate it.
And the PVP balancing that they’re doing is primarily for those that are trying to fight each other. That’s different from trying to balance PVP from an ecosystem standpoint, where some things are just better at certain things and in different environments.
It’s why carno consistently kept getting downsized, because it was incredibly strong originally.
The realism aspects, is just regarding the experience of survival.
You can have both in this game, but there’s a large portion of the community base that loves to fight, so they tried to balance out PVP to make combat more enjoyable so that players have more options to fight instead of just needing to run.

PVP in this game is not quite how it is in other games.

Pot is more balanced for traditional PVP than this game is for example

[dusky surge]

its just not realistic tho, its immersive

there is a difference

[slim dragon]

That's not how the game is balanced tho
It's clearly stated and clearly shown that there are some animals that are straight-up better at fighting than others
Pin is a perfect example of that

The reason carno got downsized was because it left no survival chance to cera. And in a game balanced around survival chances, this was an issue.

[torn egret]

Immersion doesn’t require realism at all. It’s designed to make you feel like you’re it actually in the world.
The realism of this is the harshness of it. And how some flights you just cannot win, you put yourself an area you don’t belong how you probably will just die.
Immersion does not require realism.

[slim dragon]

You misunderstand what realism is

Inescapable situations is a design decision. Or lack thereof. It's not about realism.

[torn egret]

But the issue with the way they changed some of the balancing is why I make the case for people trying to make it about PVP.
You’re right, pin exists.
Some things are just flat out stronger and more deadly than others.
I never really had an issue with the old car now personally. I started the damn back an update 6.5.
Cera was what I learned the basics of the game on, and yes, carno was difficult. But it wasn’t one of those where it left 0% survival chance.
Now, carno is in another weird spot. Where it can’t really do much to survive on its own. And that’s in part of the size down, and the attempted reworks for the charge.

Now, if you want to do any sort of real survival, play allo or Rex and be almost unstoppable.
Raptor exists in an area with troo, Troo is probably just dead. Because it ages so fast that even in peak, it doesn’t have long to live.
But then again, troo used to do better against carnivores, but I like the shift to being a herbi bully. (Completely sidetracked myself lol, balance for small tiers is a diff convo)

[torn egret]

Yes and no.
Realistically, some things should be stronger in certain matchups. That we can agree on.
But the attempt to pursue realism is not easy, since what’s real isn’t fair. Like pins and grapples.
But so is not being given any chance to escape or deter a threat.
The lack of the ability to escape those situations is because the game is still in early development despite the time it’s been being made.
Once the roster is out and the environment changes to fit what the ecosystem can “naturally” handle, then the balance for realism vs just combat PvP will be attainable imo.

Venom isn’t realistic in this game, we can agree on that.
It’s both under powered and overpowered, depending on the situation
Troo venom is bugged visually, dilo venom is spotty at best.
Venom “realistically” would be a death sentence for most creatures.
But for players and game balance, it’s changed to be balanced for a chance to survive.
Where other mechanics are just instant wins.

I think the only way to achieve realism, would be making the survival aspect for harsher than it is now. Then the unfair and inescapable situations would be less common, but more impactful.

If that makes any sense

[slim dragon]

I don't think full realism should be achieved, nor should it even be considered

Because that's boring

[torn egret]

It just depends on the execution.
You can’t assume something is bad until they pursue all potential routes.

And of course, full on realism would never be achieved. But getting as close to realism as possible can be more immersive. At least to players seeking that kind of experience.

[slim dragon]

You don't need to go full realism to have immersion

[torn egret]

Of course not.
But saying that there’s no point in pursuing, it is just one opinion of many when it comes to this game.
I would prefer more realism, in the sense of survival being more difficult, combat being less about butt spam and ability spam to win fights, the environment, and the ecosystem changing slightly based on what kind of playable are on the server at the time, etc

[slim dragon]

But that's not more realistic

More realism would be things like mud not working for clotting wounds, fractures being impossible to heal, carnivores taking 5x longer to starve, all dinos taking 100x longer to grow, and so on...

[torn egret]

I play this game or at least I started it, because of the concept of being able to “live“ as a Dino.
I don’t know what you mean by it. “It’s not more realistic.”
Realism is pretty harsh.
Not everyone should just be able to play Rex and allo and expect to survive
The things you brought up, are kind of extreme examples, lol especially when it comes to taking time to grow and starving.
Of course, if you wanted to go for a hyper realism, it would take 20 to 30 years to grow a Dino lmao. 🤣
Those are just aspects of realism.
Mud can help with stopping bleed, but would naturally come with the risk of infection, etc. since it slows blood leaving the wound etc.
There have been plenty of examples where animals can break a bone in the wild, survive and still live relatively full lives
The whole starvation thing has long since been mute, because of the over abundance of food in the form of AI
Those are just super extreme examples that don’t really address the whole idea of realism.

You don’t have to make things 100% realistic for it to get close to realism.

[slim dragon]

Current is fine

Realism is used where it doesn't hinder gameplay, and foregone where it would

[torn egret]

And I disagree with that.
There is no realism in the fact that starvation is not actually a threat for most creatures.
There is no realism when 1/3 to 2/3 of a server are playing Allo and Rex, and able to survive off of AI alone
There is no ecosystem to reestablished, because the game is overall too easy despite having aspects of realism.

[slim dragon]

That's not a realism issue, that's a balance issue

[torn egret]

It’s both.
You don’t need to separate realism from balance lol. They aren’t always 2 different things.

Realism ig is just the type of immersion you “feel”
But you seem to think it’s just about difficulty, but let me know if that’s wrong

[slim dragon]

Yes but in this case what's needed is not realism, it's balance
I couldn't care less about realism in this situation
And we'll never have a realistic ecosystem anyway

[slim dragon]

It's wrong

[torn egret]

So we can go back-and-forth on what is realistic, what realism would feel like, and balance changes, but at the end of the day, you and I are looking for two very different experiences.
But I doubt we’re going to get a chance to agree on much of anything.
Since we don’t really have much common ground to stand on.
It’s not necessarily a bad thing, it’s just that we play the game for different reasons

I don’t think at the end of the day, though, that we really know how the game is gonna end up.
Is it going to be more PVP focused like POT? Is it going to lean more to survival and the experience an immersion of being in an environment of Dino’s?
Who knows.

But I don’t think it’s worth trying to argue with each other over what is better or not.
Just because after a period of time, it seems to just get hostile lol

[obtuse ocean]

It says on the store page, the main core of the game is survival. So they might change, cus your correct its no survival atm. Food and water is everywhere. Only reason im running around is to look for pvp not cus i need food, but cus thats the only feature thats in the game. Right now its pure pvp only reason i see why we should need water is so deino can grab something lol.

[dawn sand]

#balance-feedback message

@torn egret Honestly, I wouldn't mind if Allo got a trot speed buff at the cost of some of its overall sprint speed. Bleeding tracker I feel combos well with being a high impact bleeder imo.

[torn egret]

I do know they intend to up the difficulty at some point, but right now they’re trying to get the PVP balance for the new labels before they make it too difficult to even grow them to test them

[torn egret]

And I would love that too, because of how much bleed it can do, it would incentivize players to try to run away, but if you learn how to track, you can become successful with hunting instead of trying to force fights to be PVP

[dawn sand]

Personally I love Allo, one of my favorites irl, I like Evrima Allo a lot but I have a few gripes. Id love if it trotted a little faster even if it means slowing its sprint speed down a little bit. Would also love if they changed it's pounce to act more like its claw attack if it can outright pin something. Instead of just clinging on to something like an Omni, it latches on briefly, and maybe you get to choose between a higher damage lower bleed attack or a higher bleed lower damage attack, and if another Allo 'pounces' while youre in the brief latch phase, then you get to pin if its a big'un

[dusky surge]

wouldnt this make the whole "allo gets run down by rex" issue worse

[torn egret]

It’s primarily because they copied the overall pounce mechanic from Omni in the first place
I wouldn’t mind if it had a sort of grapple/spa when it did land so it could pull things around, but I dislike how it just kind of sits on the side and doesn’t affect the target ability to move and turn,
It would be cool to give it a sort of amount of instant amount

[dawn sand]

Kill Rex Ambush speed and see what happens

[torn egret]

It would, but it would also mean that potentially Rex would have to get some speed changes.
Allo as it is now is kind of, good? But at the same time feels like it’s being forced to be more of a brawler than a bleed a tracker. Forcing it to play a little differently might be good.

[dusky surge]

i mean, i think prime speed is worse than ambush speed tbh

[torn egret]

Right, but it’s got other issues as well as its ambush. There’s a bunch of things that could be tweaked on it.

[dawn sand]

Allos functional as it is but I think its balancing is a little out of tune in a few different directions. In full honesty, its pounce feels half hearted.

[torn egret]

I’m sure they’ll be getting some changes with the next HT

Hoping anyways

[dawn sand]

Both are bad, Prime speed buff is worse admittedly but even still I dont like how Rex Ambush works if it must have it. That being said, Rex is the most privileged ass carnivore in the game right now. It needs a lot of toning down imo.

[dusky surge]

ehhh honestly i think rex is mostly fine outside of prime, i genuinely don't have that many problems with it thinking about it, it's remarkably well done

it feels like the prime rex was a complete afterthought though, just entirely disregarding the otherwise interesting balance it has throughout its life

[torn egret]

And that’s what I meant by tweaks overall.
There’s also it’s ability to turn, it’s stamina regen, being very high, low cost of attacks,
Issues with the crush, etc.
But in terms of the raw stats, prime is definitely a little messed up

[dawn sand]

Rex turning radius in general needs to be toned down, at least as an adult, thats the main change with adult Rex I care about. Also if Rex Ambush speed boost got gradually slower the longer it went on until it goes back to normal running speed, thats be great

[dawn sand]

Honestly, yeah, I really dislike how Prime Rex Vs Non-Prime Adult Trike is just Thermonuke Vs Coughing Baby. The Trike just dies, its really uncool.

[dusky surge]

i'll be honest, the turn radius on rex is also fine tbh, the "cera speed turn" is completely overstated nonsense

i do think while in murdersprint it should suffer an agility decrease tho

[dusky surge]

also this is by far the most interesting concept for murdersprint and i actually love it

having the speed boost wind down over time genuinely encourages using it for a short range burst and not remotely for just "me run you down now"

[dawn sand]

Its a little exaggerated by some, but honestly, I stand by it still turns too fast. Its got stun, pin, speed boost, and fractures, it doesn't need to have Trike turn speed, but it can do with a reduction. Especially considering its Alts are fast enough as is.

Rex isn't broken, but its got an obnoxious amount of benefits. It stand by that its still an over privileged playable.

I also think Primes in general need to be reigned in by a lot. Especially Rexes, but thats a different discussion entirely.

[dusky surge]

rex has a LOT going for it, which is honestly why prime rex is just... so problematic, because it turns all of those things up

tanky as hell? tankier
can run you down with murdersprint? faster
crazy high damage and fracture? even more
high pin range? it increases more with the weight

i think prime needs a tradeoff like how cera and allo have done it with their speed decreases

[dawn sand]

I feel most Primes in general need to be toned down. Most weight buffs should reflect what Tenonto gets relative to its full adult weight. Also kill speed buffs unless they specifically cater to a playables play style. I.E. Hypsi, Dryo, Galli and maybe Carno and Troodon. Im cool with small bonuses and the Prime designs, as well as just getting the general utility of a 4th mutation, but the state most Primes are in is just absurd imo.

Its not unplayably bad by anymeans atm, but its a bit much

[white spade]

Guys, what do you think about this?

I posted in #general-feedback

[torn egret]

There can be ways to abuse parts of the system I think.
It is a cool idea, but I think some of these buffs would be better turned into mutations that you earned at the same time. Multichambered lungs used to require a lot of stamina , and now it’s just a distance traveled for example.

When it comes to speed, etc., speed buffs are often some of the most game breaking for balance because of the waist stats are kind of designed right now
Carno would almost always get the speed buff to its prime in that case, because of the nature of the way it hunts.
Now, if each of these buffs came with a deep buff as well, i.e. if you were faster, you were also less tanky or prone to injury that would be an interesting trade-off.
But I would prefer to see buffs, and debuffs occur within mutation selections
For example, eat to heal meant you wasted more food, hyper metabolic meant you got hungry faster.
Reabsorption meant you had water drain faster when it wasn’t raining. Etc.

[torn egret]

It’s overall not a bad idea, but focusing on the elders alone, when some of the mutations have been problems for the system as well would be a better place to start

[white spade]

But here is the thing. Right now, every prime gets a general buffs in size/weight, dmg/speed.
So, Carno, for example, almost every elder Carno gets a huge speed buff, because the actual elder system is more direct — you achieve a few boxes and earn a buff in everything.

My idea is to turn down this general buff while still keeping the buffs — that's why I think a reflected "lifestyle" is good. While it would still have a few problems (like you listed), is still better than having a huge buff in every stat.
A Carno its not built for direct fight, so achieving a resistance buff would be hard for it. But since its more hit and run, a running buff would be easier.

But another point is: every dino would have a milestone. The goal is to be challenging, even if a dino is built to fight, run, eat, etc.

So even if a Carno could achieve the speed buff faster than a trike, the number to achieve it would be higher than the trike number

To give a quick scope:

Actual System:
Prime Elder = everything buffed

Dynamic System:
Elder = buffed based on what you achieve during your life.

[torn egret]

Right, but I’m not saying that there’s nothing wrong with the current system, the overall fact that everything gets buffed is kind of silly.
But there are some mutations that could probably do the same thing that you want them to for the elder system.
But I definitely think that they’re going to be reworking the elder system entirely, but I wouldn’t mind it if it was flavored based off of how you lived. But setting thresholds that are different for each species would be kind of difficult. As well as how good those buffs were.

[obsidian stump]

I feel sad that Carnotaurus can’t really fight Ceratosaurus. Since Cerato weighs around 1950 while Carno weighs less, it feels like Carno is at a disadvantage. Carno’s charge doesn’t always hit Cerato either.

Ceratos can also group up to five players, while Carnotaurus can only have three. Even Allosaurus can’t knock down a Cerato when it’s at prime.

I really wish Carnotaurus could fight Cerato on equal terms. I love Carnotaurus, and there are millions of people who love Carnotaurus too.

[hasty coyote]

The core issue with making carno have an equal fight with cera is that cera is nearly 20kph slower than carno. So not only does carno hold ALL the cards on whether the engagement happens, it can also just decide to leave whenever it wants. Cera gets no such luxury and is actively slowed down by using its main ability and its passives make it want to stand its ground. So overall, cera needs to be the stronger fighter due to it lacking any other way to deal with carnos other than to kill them first.

Also, carno has to be carefully balanced around the smalls, Due to it being the 2nd fastest land dino in the game (only to galli) it can easily catch anything smaller, which is its designed niche. As such, giving it tools to deal with cera generally mean it is absolutely oppressive towards the small game due to small game having less than 1/2 the hp and damage of cera at best. The only way to have carno be able to fight ceras and not be oppressive is to make carno absolutely abysmal at actually catching the small game, which it was for a time. But that lead to carno only being able to kill ceras, dilos, and tenos, while anything smaller ran 2 circles around the carno before it was out of stam and anything bigger was immune to ram.

lastly, group size doesnt really matter, overgrouping comes at no negative unless you overpack a LOT, and then you're just stinky and hungry. Its basically jsut indicative of the average group size before the intended niche becomes unsustainable. Carno's small group size is due to it hunting smaller things, so its hard to feed a lot and multiple carnos become an immediate death sentence to anything small that doesnt have an escape gimmick. Cera on the other hand can eat just about anything, so starvation is not much of an issue, and packing up allows them to bully bigger dinos off corpses.

[unreal crystal]

Without bodybuff carno dog walks cera

[hasty coyote]

that too, current ram spam is def op if its able to stun.

[scenic crystal]

Carno is not OP, he hunts smaller dinos and has to try a bit to kill it. It is harder to kill a carno prey that jumps on stones than an allo that pins dinos and kills them.

[mystic isle]

diving without swim speed is still a death sentence when you have deinos in the game, it shouldn't be that slow

[obsidian stump]

On realism servers, you can only have the number of dinos the game allows, like 3 Carnos and 5 Ceratos.
For Carnotaurus to have a chance against a Cerato, it can’t take any damage because it suffers a lot of bleeding. If it runs, it can die from bleeding. It’s really hard to fight a Cerato, especially when you run into 5 of them, and they’re always carrying a carcass in their mouths. Almost impossible.

[hasty coyote]

the game isnt balanced for realism servers, those are server rules that you can either deal with, ask them to change, or swap servers
you wont bleed out unless you take a lot of hits, in which case either the cera is low and you can rush it down or you have made a mistake committing too much into a losing fight.
just dont engage ceras unless you think you can win, thats the point of being so fast. also dragging a body means it wont give them body buff.

[obsidian stump]

Cerato is way stronger than Carno

[finite shadow]

The carcass in their mouth ain’t giving them any meaningful body buff, also the carno just gains distance and stuns the cera

[viscid mica]

know your waters before recklessly diving in anymore swim speed is op as that boy climbs trees ¯_(ツ)_/¯

[viscid mica]

It’s rmb spam is very op as it’s getting max value while standing still which IS a bug

[viscid mica]

If your holding LMB most sizes of sub can’t even be stunned by primes

Charge bite stability buff cuz why not

[manic pagoda]

Backtracking slightly to say I think you are right that strong mutations do need debuffs. If a Carno chose a theoretical speed mutation, it would need to come with something like a lightweight skeleton to shed weight and thereby reducing damage and making sprinting through rough terrain a bit more risky as a trade off.

[torn egret]

That’s one of the main critiques I have with this game, is that there aren’t really any major downsides to a lot of your decisions.
You can only make yourself stronger, never weaker. Unless you just choose to not participate in the gameplay and that’s how you get the frail elder.
I wonder if that’s also part of the reason why there are so many issues with the elder system right now from a lot of player perspectives, because they’ve never actually been punished before for decisions and lifestyle choices.

[manic pagoda]

Yeah. Before this, the only real punishments were the broken bone states and muscle spasms.

Mutations should feel like you are specializing, and at the moment you really only get that after a couple of entombments stacking the same mutations to increased effect.
I think that when you choose your 3 base mutations, those 3 should be the only ones that carry over to the next life and allow you to increase your specialization as you entomb. Not the current "lol I collected 16 level 1 mutations ecks dee" that currently happens.

[torn egret]

At the very least, I want them to have you continuously pick the same mutations in order to receive the buffed stats.
There’s no reason to have 16 different mutations on a dino right now with the way balance is done
I want people to actually work for these mutations over and over again.
It would make in tubing something that actually helps you specialize, instead of becoming a jack of all trades and overpowered

[manic pagoda]

Thats what im saying exactly

[torn egret]

I’d also like to see some mutations completely removed from certain species.
I don’t think everyone should have access to the salt water mut for example
As well as the eat to heal, traumatic thrombosis, and multi chambered lungs

[manic pagoda]

I would also like more species specific muts

Yeah, we on the same page

[torn egret]

Absolutely. lol
I often get dogged on quite a bit because I prefer to make this game a little bit more realistic and less arcade. Cause it definitely feels like there’s no punishment in the game. Let alone if we start trying to talk about difficulty. The only things that struggle to survive right now. Are Herrera and crocs lol

All of the big stuff is just so easy to grow, the prime requirements are very easy to cheese, the spiral out of the player base somehow not fully understanding the purpose of them

And despite all of this, survival is so easy, there’s no incentive to place something small smaller that might be easier to sustain

Leading to the death of the small tiers and medium tiers in my opinion

[manic pagoda]

I feel bad for the crocs. Deino and its jumpscare is one of those things that I think are necessary to the game. We need to get rid of all these shallow puddles that provide safe drinking. Or at least put them in the sanctuaries where only juvies can use them.

Or a small stream in the sancs if not a pond

[dusky surge]

but that just detriments the animals that exist near shallow water, like austro, sucho, cherius, etc

this isn't spiro, the game shouldn't only cater to deino as an aquatic

it also just leaves out any reasonable counterplay to deino

[manic pagoda]

Swamp has loads of shallow water doesn't it?

[dusky surge]

yea, but it shouldn't only be swamp exclusive

[manic pagoda]

Why wouldn't spino be able to wreck it in a river? Why does it require shallows?

Spino can almost wade through some stretches of river as it is

Drinking in Spiro wasn't a 100% death sentence either. Other than something like Plains or NW, I can count on two hands the number of times i ever got grabbed in any other stretch of river that the crocs had 100% access to.

[dusky surge]

because it had shallows

despite its attempts to delete them

[manic pagoda]

Im not referring to drinking in shallows

[dusky surge]

spiro was absolutely a massively deino-focused maps tho

15 deinos could exist in the rivers perfectly fine at once, it was absurd

[manic pagoda]

Im talking about drinking in water a Rex could swim in

[dusky surge]

also idk what spino has to do with deino at all

like, deino swims away because spino is apparently slow as hell in the water

[torn egret]

I disagree with this, only because with how many safe water locations there are we are across the map.
There are areas where crocs can almost never get to, and even if they do manage to make it there, there’s usually not enough traffic to sustain them anyways.
Players have long since body blocked if they were large enough, like stego and trike, and now Rex.
And it’s fine if a map is oriented to sustain a bunch of crocs, as long as there is enough total water coverage that it’s impossible for them to be in all areas at once.

[dusky surge]

and that's fine, because crocs shouldn't have dominion over the whole map, and i dont know why people want it to

[torn egret]

Spino would be a great addition to the shallow areas where other creatures could wade,
But the fact that swamp has so much shallow water, an area that you very rarely see players in there

[dusky surge]

same way a sucho should get obliterated in deep water

[torn egret]

But it also doesn’t change the fact that reabsorption and the saltwater drinking mutation is available to everyone.
There’s very little fear of getting grabbed anymore, because there are so many ways to get around that risk

The water should be as sketchy and dangerous as possible, especially since we have now three Dino’s that after a certain period of time can just be immune to the fear of water because of their size

Talking about how some things would get destroyed in deeper water, or would control shallow water doesn’t matter if there’s no fear of the water in the first place.

It’s part of the reason why I’m OK with upping the thresholds of which a croc can grab something

At least until other things come into the game

[dusky surge]

i don't think the water needs to be feared, it's a vital resource

you don't constantly fear food, but you are cautious around suspicious corpses

[manic pagoda]

You could drink with impunity anywhere but the red area and be fine almost 100% of the time, and these were always just a quick run from anywhere you might be.

[torn egret]

It is a vital resource, but that doesn’t mean that it should be safe for everybody throughout their life.

[manic pagoda]

And there was nothing stopping the crocs from going to those places

[dusky surge]

deino is already entirely untouchable as an animal and honestly the only true threat to it is starving or its own hubris

it doesn't also need to be near guaranteed a meal

[torn egret]

But that’s fine, I don’t see what’s wrong with them being able to live with little risk because that’s kind of how Rex is right now
At least crocs actually starve lol

[junior jay]

You should always fear when drinking water rn its not a thing sadly

[dusky surge]

you like realism? realistically, there's places to drink that don't contain a gator

if deino choreographed or had a way to counter it before it lunges, sure, but it doesn't

[junior jay]

Those Small puddles are filled with bacteria irl

And poop

[torn egret]

Right, we’re trying to throw the realism aspect at me, I can throw it right back and say that there should be places that are too shallow for creatures to drink, or that water resources should deplete if overused or if they get dirty.
If they bring in droughts and floods properly, that would open up more areas for players to find water, and also give times where they are forced to go to main bodies

[torn egret]

There’s a lot of water that is so shallow at the edge that you can usually see a croc right before they get ready to jump

There’s no reason to introduce areas all over the place that are safe.

[dusky surge]

yea, that should be consistently a thing across the entire map if we want to make deino that omni-present

make it that an aware player can see deino coming and avoid it before death, otherwise, add ways to avoid that instadeath

[torn egret]

It’s not just about making them everywhere on the map at all times, because they should have to rely on players for food, but there are more ways to avoid crocs than there are opportunities for crocs to get a meal

[torn egret]

Most of the water is so clean anyways, that you can see them

And if you have a good enough reaction time, you can avoid it

[dusky surge]

you wanna know the danger of shallow water? you aren't the only one going there

[torn egret]

Once again, it comes to my personal philosophy, they’re not everyone should be guaranteed a chance every time to make it to 100%
If it’s easy to get 100% grown, you lose the thrill of the journey that it took to get there.

[dusky surge]

someone can, and will use that prized resource to hunt for themselves

[torn egret]

Sure, if the salt water drinking mutation wasn’t a thing across the board

But there are ways to get around highly contested spots, ways to avoid crocs in the deeper water, through reabsorption and reticulated kidney

[manic pagoda]

I wonder how many people walk close to shallow water in croc country today

[dusky surge]

if you wanna play purely coastal, that's your choice i guess

[torn egret]

A lot of people do that until they’re big enough to not fear getting grabbed. That’s the thing.
Rex trike and stego have almost nothing to fear once they reach a certain size
And the smaller playables have enough access to shallow water that they don’t really get contested as much

[dusky surge]

you know what would be better than making deino omnipresent? making rex not have one of the slowest thirst rates in the game, because it does for some reason

[torn egret]

Not everyone should make it to full grown every single time. Because it just kills the whole survival aspect.
And yet only crocs are really subject to constant starvation, threats,

[dusky surge]

rex's hunger and thirst are so slow it never HAS to engage

[torn egret]

Sure that could be part of it, but it just because they need to get water more often doesn’t mean that they’re gonna go to the areas that are dangerous

[dusky surge]

they inevitably will be putting themselves in more danger regardless

[torn egret]

There are so many areas of this map that aren’t scary anymore because you just never really see crocs there

[dusky surge]

because water is where people congregate

[dusky surge]

if the only "scary factor" is the presence of a croc, then perhaps the game should focus less on spamming crocs everywhere and more on making the rest of the game feel scary

[torn egret]

Not always.
It’s not a constant state of fact, because the only reason there are areas that are highly populated is because of traffic, Thurston hunger are seen as almost not “important” nowadays
Because of how easy it is to eat, find food and find safe water

[torn egret]

It’s not about spamming crocs, it’s the fact that there are very few of them naturally anyways. More often you’ll find them mixed packing in order to just survive.

You don’t have to “spam crocs” in order to make water scary.
All you have to do is remove the safety of a lot of these water spots

There are loads of puddles, ponds, and lakes all over the map

[dusky surge]

good, there should be

because sucho, bary and other aquatics need those spaces, and it adds more dynamic to water

[torn egret]

But that means that there’s not enough areas to “contest”
And sure it might be great for them once they are added, but right now it’s just free resources

[dusky surge]

some creatures, like teno or cera, prefer the less shallow water because swimming is a great survival tool

[torn egret]

Except for the fact that some of the water isn’t deep enough to make everything that’s coming after them also swim.
Rex has an incredibly high wading depth

That’s the problem that’s happening right now,
A lot of areas that should benefit certain creatures just don’t

Swamp isn’t almost always dead. Because despite how shallow a lot of it is, people just don’t like it for some reason.
Even though it’s a fantastic place to find herbi that are growing

Yet there are still only a handful of Dino that really get any benefit there

There are so many places where you can wait, and not have any threat from pouncers like troo or raptor, despite how nice that area should be for them

[dusky surge]

swamp is dead for a good reason, migrations are entirely broken

you literally just cannot get food there consistently

[torn egret]

There’s no real issues with finding food over there, though, there’s one main area where the AI spawns, there are plenty of patrol zones that are active, it’s really not that big of a deal there

[dusky surge]

not everyone is playing a carnivore, and to activate a patrol there, you'd have to have a reason to go to swamp first as a herbivore

swamp is far out of the way and only has two properly viable entrances

[crystal stream]

Not to say they shouldn’t but making the balance already even more one sided even though it’s perfectly fine rn is beyond me

[hasty coyote]

The issue with adding negatives is that they just turn the game into rock paper scissors for many matchups. That speed mutation you gave would effectively come with 0 drawbacks if you hunt things that don’t have the ability to kill you (which is 90% of carno’s intended prey) yet makes you much weaker against anything that does have a chance to kill you. The rough terrain example doesn’t do anything because reducing weight actually decreases the proportional fall damage you take, so it would be a buff in those situations. This effectively means the mutation just gives a major buff in certain matchups and a major nerf in others, which is the only way to make the detriment to a mutation “fair” without it just flat out counteracting any benefits of the buff (which makes it useless). So it effectively just makes them turn the game into rock paper scissors where the other players’ only solution is to also join the rock paper scissors (namely taking the same or a counter mutation).

[dusky surge]

i think we're better off reworking or removing these "meta statbuff mutations" over making debuffs that, like rapdex said, makes rock paper scissors out of the mutation system

[hasty coyote]

I don’t know how to tell you this, but there IS a major carnivore bias in player base (as in like75% of players are carnivore)

[crystal stream]

Idk bro I think it should he animation changes and definitely some changes but ngl without the latch mechanic would be a joke to mid tiers ofc dibble and Mia should always have a advantage but without pounce dibble Mia and esp Stego destroy allo

[dusky surge]

why did you delete and repost that lmao

[crystal stream]

Sorry had to reply so yall knew what I was talking about

Bc I took to long to type it out lol

[hasty coyote]

I agree, it’s also a bit too late to just scrap the entire mechanic, but pouncing in general really needs a rebalance as it’s just in a terrible state for everyone.

[viscid mica]

@junior jay troodon venom is bugged which is why it’s flashing and the biggest threat to a epileptic’s existence but otherwise when working properly the venom isn’t that op considering troodon is a 1 shot by everything even as prime

[junior jay]

yes

[viscid mica]

Also also! All teno needs for prime system to no screw it is enough weight to be worth a dam aka 2.2T teno please devs

[junior jay]

yes

[viscid mica]

Other than that you did great

[junior jay]

ty

[stark knoll]

@hexed crow That's not balance feedback, and it's /unstuck

[hexed crow]

so you type that in game?

[stark knoll]

Yup

[hexed crow]

thank you i didnt know that

[faint robin]

https://youtube.com/shorts/NLDtqNAAl9Y?is=tS2zMMD-wJWejUr0 even with out bite spam lol

[crystal stream]

Adult can’t jst prime

[unreal crystal]

You can facetank tank 16 mutations entombed allo (all damage mutations included) all you need to do on dibble is move backwards whilst doing the same lmb attack

[faint robin]

What if allo moves forward

Allo shooting bites like a minigun is stupid

[unreal crystal]

Allo can move forward and dibble still wins (~40% hp left)

[faint robin]

Dibble can't move backwards faster than allo moves forward, will basically be the same

If you think head armor will carry

[unreal crystal]

Also keep in mind the facepounce thing dealing ~ 11% hp damage is definitely a bug... dibble should only receive a fraction of that damage if allo decides to facepounce

4x facepounces is arous half dibble hp

[unreal crystal]

Oh you can 100%

Happy to show you

[faint robin]

I guess face pounce is the issue here

[unreal crystal]

Agree

[cosmic pelican]

@pliant gust those bites do land, creatures just no longer make a pain sound when the damage dealt to them is less than 1% of their total hp

[pliant gust]

no sometimes it just doesnt register at all

[cosmic pelican]

Never seen that happen before

[pliant gust]

Tested it multiple times sometimes theres just no animation but other times you just dont do anything

[cosmic pelican]

You mean your own bite animation cancelling? Or the victim making no animation and pain sound?

[pliant gust]

Victim

[cosmic pelican]

Did you test it with admin panel?
Also if you were trying to bite a rex as a hypsi, you probably wont see it take damage because its natural healing is way more than 2 damage

[pliant gust]

Yes and we did it with multiple hipsi and it wasnt only at rexes also other smaller dinos

[cosmic pelican]

Ill be honest thats probably due to hypsi having a horrible bite hitbox

Either way probably should get that reported

[pliant gust]

then that needs fixing

[cobalt dagger]

Can someone tell me why 8 people said no to preventing speedloss after 87%?

[autumn zephyr]

If theres anyone that knows how much damage dib can take upfront its you XD

[unreal crystal]

😂

[junior jay]

It would be op for prime dinos

And it would remove the whole purpose of elders since there would literally no downsides

#balance-feedback message
Carno is already op why would it need a buff

And Bonebreak wtf😭

And this needs a buff

[cobalt dagger]

Prime dinos are already OP and there's already no point to elders because primes are often just barely the same speed sometimes faster when both are 100%.

But y'know what's OP?

I spend longer playing xyz species than another person and become slower and weaker. But the slower is the worst because thanks to being slower you can't escape! Should they choose to kill you.

Or a teno/cera/stego/rex/diablo/maia/almost everything can outrun Rex...
Except when they're 100% (even as a prime.)

Then you have to afk in a bush and hide because a rex will run you down when normally it wouldn't because you loose SO much speed at 100%.

[junior jay]

Point of elders is so you wont live forever

[cobalt dagger]

Basically it turns into 'If I am SEEN I will die' and so the best way to live is to hide...

Some things should rely on hiding to survive, like babies, but not all creatures.

Hiding is super boring.

[junior jay]

Bro if every prime stays at 87 game Will literally be if i see that dino i am ded

[cobalt dagger]

They should make it so you just die rather than getting slow then.

Slow encourages people to hide. This is what makes ithard to find player interactions. Player interactions are what make the game fun.

Hiding actively discourages coming out of your bush and interacting.

[cobalt dagger]

Speeds need to be adjusted but mostly they are in the right place. Rex isn't.

But yeah if you're younger/not prime then yeah. Before primes, anyone below 100% afk in bushes (Best way to hide) until 100%.

The elder system now encourages you to not afk in bushes, that's great! Oh, wait, we still do that, just as elders instead of babies.

I love the elder system for making people run around and not afk in bushes, legitimately.

But people just hide as elders now.

This game's fun depends on player interaction, like raising babies or having fights or talking. But playing on an empty server where you're the only player is pretty boring.

And sometimes full servers feel empty because of how much everyone is hiding and watching youtube in a bush.

[junior jay]

Why would you hide as elder😭
Why ru playing the game if ur hiding etomb Or go fight

Ur the only1 that does that

[cobalt dagger]

I am talking about hiding from 87% to 100%.

And yeah, if you want to entomb, it's best to hide so you don't 'get seen and immediately die with no way to run and no way to fight.'

And I'm not the only one who's figured that out plenty others have.

Why would you hide when you get old? Because it's the best way to stay alive when something outruns you and also 2-taps you or even pins you.

And you loose speed before 100% there's a scary drop in speed at 90% that puts you slower than things you need to outrun to survive

Entombs have added a new layer of progress, at 3 entombs it's now possible to have not just the dino's lifespan as progress to loose, but the dino's lifespan x3 - However many hours that is, usually more than 6 for most playables - And then to have that 6-hour-investment be outran and also pinned by rex at any moment is horrible.

The best way to preserve that progress is to hide.

At 3 entombs, entombing again to become a baby, who's even slower, is a huge risk so you're most likely going to stay on 100% (Safer, better way to save your progress) but then you'll hide all the time because if you get seen even once you're dead and your mutations won't save you from rex's pin and they won't save you from .being outran by a rex.

[junior jay]

Only if they want to farm mutations

[cobalt dagger]

Nah a lot of people entomb because they feel like they're forced to by the speed loss. There is feedback about that in the feedback channel.

Lots of people have said entombment 'feels' forced and I understand why, 100% elders are totally UNVIABLE in a world with Rexes.

The only thing they can do to stay alive in a world with rexes (there's soooo many rexes it's crazy) is be on an empty server or hide in a bush.

[junior jay]

Better option would be to remove prime Speed buffs

[cobalt dagger]

That would be great but things will still get outran by rexes.

I agree to that though.

[junior jay]

Sounds More of a rex problem than a speed problem

[cobalt dagger]

I agree to it but I don't think it's enough.

[cobalt dagger]

It also applies to smaller things with raptors and medium things with allo.

But I point at rex because EVERYTHING has to deal with him where as not everything has to deal with allo and only a few things get pinned by Raptor.

Normally though, allo can face-tank cera and teno with it's machine-gun-bites and if they can't outrun it they're super dead. The speed difference between allo and teno/cera is actually very small. Cera and teno outrun it but only slightly. So being slightly old puts them slower than allo.

[junior jay]

Yes but that allo Will hit elder and then it Will be his turn to die thats how the system is meant to work you dont have to etomb the extra mutations they dont matter that much

[cobalt dagger]

Allo doesn't die as an elder to things smaller to him, he dies to rex though. Rex as an elder dies to other rexes.

People were already dying a lot without a system that forces them to die.

Also it doesn't work because hiding is TOO GOOD.

Most things disappear way too easily into deep forest unless you track them or you're staying close to keep an eye on them. If you didn't already know they were there, then you probably won't find them ever. It's worse if they sit in a bush, and everything can sit in a bush.

Hiding is super OP in the isle and it always has been.

I've grown plenty of things to 100% and gotten x3 entombs through the power of afking in a bush and watching youtube while waiting to die.

But that's not good... It works, I lived, but afk watching youtube in a bush should NOT be the optimal way to survive. 8(

Because when you have 6+ hours invested on a multiple entombed dino, you will seek the optimal way to survive.

SOME creatures should depend on hiding, but not all of them! Right now, they all do as elders.

Hiding discourages player interaction, fights or other activity.

It's BORING.

[junior jay]

Again you can sit In bushes so you can grow Again with few Small perks but is it really worth it you go fight something maybe even win have fun while doing it then grow again

The Small mutations buffs arent that important

[cobalt dagger]

I agree this is more fun conceptually but loosing 6+ hours of progress is not and lots of people are in that same boat with me. Plenty of us will not throw away a bunch of time for a short fight, especially if we get insta-pinned by one of the 3 pinning species. Or 1 tapped because we were a light species that attacked a trike because that's the only thing that doesn't hide - trike, rex, stego - so it's most of what you see.

[junior jay]

Go To a population control server

[cobalt dagger]

Most fights aren't fair fights - and that's OK.

But avoiding fightings is part of the game...

But what I hate, is that when you cannot run and you cannot fight, afk in a bush is the best thing. I wish all species were designed to either run, or fight, and hiding was restricted to babies, who can't hide forever because they need prime requirements and food.

[cobalt dagger]

Those still have rexes, allos, stegos, trikes, raptors, ect.

[junior jay]

The problem for you is clearly lack of diversity for species that you see

[junior jay]

But not that much you Will see other dinos

[cobalt dagger]

Rexes, allos, trikes, stegos, raptors, deino is not a diversity?

I played petits there's plenty of all of those.

[junior jay]

All apexes if we dont count raptor

And allo

[cobalt dagger]

Allo is a mid tier

[junior jay]

.

[cobalt dagger]

Yeah and it counts how many of each species but as more apex are added then it's possible to have more apex, and either way even 90% of any of those apexes hopelessly die (no run no fight back hiding is only option) to the others.

And so hiding they will! Because no one wants to loose that much progress.

And that's intentional, the devs want us to care about our dino's lives and think before we fight. That's why we heal so slowly now, that's why we don't see our HP.

The problem about caring about your life is that hiding is both TOO NECESSARY and also TOO EFFECTIVE so that if everyone hides, a full server looks like a dead one.

[junior jay]

What is the reason to play the game if ur sitting In a Bush 24/7 like no 1 does that but you
I go In the open as frail elder dible that runs 30km/h with a server filled with rexes dying is a part of the game

[cobalt dagger]

I think you're the one who's different with that one. When I play, I meet people on my own teams who go and hide in bushes and 'retire' with a full stomach enough to wait in the bush all the way until 100%.

And I do it too, but I've met others who do. You think I'm the only one because you don't FIND the hiding people because of how good hiding in this game is. You don't see them so you think they're not there I guess.

[junior jay]

And the whole balance would break even MORE if we would have dinos that run faster and are stronger than their Adult counterparts

[cobalt dagger]

That I agree with, we shouldn't have that.

That's easily fixed by removing prime speed buff.

And this other problem is fixed by keeping speed throughout our lives.

For the sake of balance, anything above 75% should maintain it's speed because the 75% speed is the one most balanced for inter-species interactions.

[junior jay]

If we dont go give speed reductions to elders it Will break the balance

[cobalt dagger]

No it won't, we had no speed reductions for ever.

[junior jay]

Prime changes things

[cobalt dagger]

Just don't add speed to prime

Keep it the same. Then let other run away from it.

Prime needs to have some kind fo reward. It's kind of like the 'new adult.' And that's OK, heavily incentivizing babies to run around and not afk is the goal.

[junior jay]

That would increase the amount of People camping In bushes to etomb and People jumping of cliffs cause they didnt get prime since they can live forever now due to their speed not going down

[cobalt dagger]

People would do it less if they had one less reason why non-prime is bad.

This is a direct buff as normally normal elders are extra slow, 100% non-prime is slower than 100% prime

Now they will be the same speed, this is a win for non-primes

[junior jay]

Right now every1 (but rex)dies since they get out ran which continues the cycle

[cobalt dagger]

Yeah so they'd jump off a cliff more if their life was doomed to end in a rex's mouth and less if they had a chance to live and maybe fight raptors instead.

They will camp in bushes less the less they are FORCED to.

Also you can't live forever just because you keep your adult speed, mega raptor packs or carno packs will find you eventually. But at least you have a fighting chance against them as opposed to being pinned by rex.

Like, 4 carnos vs diablo or maia, it's rough but do-able. Can you run? No. But you can fight.

But 1 rex you can't run away from pins both of those.

[junior jay]

Ur really saying any1 would stay as a 9.5 ton trike that can be pinned by at anytime by prime rex
No they will jump of a cliff right now they would even have chance cause 100% rexes are slow (Atleast they should be slow..)

[cobalt dagger]

Ok but tha's a different problem. Yeah no one will stay that trike even in our current balance. Because rex is so old for so long and because it's so fast, even with 100% prime loosing his speed he will still catch and pin the trike in your example.

[junior jay]

All that im getting from you is that rex should get nerfed thats basicly ur only reasoning

[cobalt dagger]

If people throw that trike off a cliff with my recommended changes they'll do it now too.

[junior jay]

If rex was balanced the trike would have a chance

[cobalt dagger]

No, I'm not saying nerf rex - though I do think rex should be nerfed somehow - Because I'm also including allo, raptor, trike, and everything else in his speed discussion.

I'm using rex as an example though.

But I could use allo vs cera (allo wins the face tank and if cera cannout run away it will die)

[junior jay]

What is wrong with raptor

[cobalt dagger]

When he's too slow to run away from a pachy.

Because he's old.

Or a maia.

[junior jay]

Elder cera is much faster swimmer and it can Kill allos too even if its slower

[cobalt dagger]

Because he's old. The young maia catches the old raptor.

[junior jay]

Maia is normally faster than raptor

[cobalt dagger]

That requires water to be around and no deinos, if you're in highlands you're dead. Better to hide.

[cobalt dagger]

No it's not, 75% speeds for both Maia is slightly slower than raptor.

[junior jay]

Yes but it can out manouver the pachy and the pachy Will be slower too In the future and prolly get Hunter by a raptor

[cobalt dagger]

Also if cera and allo sit there biting each other's faces in a face tank, allo will win. If the allo is faster, it can force that outcome to happen.

[junior jay]

No maia is 0.2 km/h faster In bipedal

[junior jay]

No it cant "force" it cera can run around the allo and go for bites After allo tries to Alt

[junior jay]

Cera can again out manouver allo

[cobalt dagger]

Raptor out mauvering doesn't matter if the pachy is faster, they turn fast enough to point-blank-tap-ram the raptor and then chase afterwards.

Also yeah sure the pachy might get hunted but they got hunted by raptors BEFORE the elder speed nerfs. We don't need speed loss to force us to die, we die without it. But let us die to our own faults and not bad balance!

[cobalt dagger]

Same story - doesn't matter and doesn't work if allo is faster! Here, hold on. We can meet on a pvp server?

I'll use it to also get the speed for maia and raptor.

If you wanna meet me on Taco Island, I'll use admin to make you a 100% cera and I'll be a 75% allo.

[junior jay]

Elders were made to "finish the cycle of life" they were made to kill you thats their whole point

[cobalt dagger]

And then we'll do the same with pachy and raptor

[junior jay]

Sure

[cobalt dagger]

People already died before and also they don't even die as elders now (plenty of us successfully entomb, like me, I have 3+ entombs on lots of dinos) because hiding is too good.

They don't DIE they just watch youtube in a bush instead, which is worse for the game because it reduces player interaction.

Can you join the unofficial server called Taco Island?

And then use Global Chat to talk to me

[junior jay]

im launching the game rn

[cobalt dagger]

When we join, don't pick any mutations, so we can do 'white room' testing

But if you wanna tell me what mutations we should both use then we can do that too.

[junior jay]

Alr ill be there In about 3 Min got little internet issue

[cobalt dagger]

I have to go in about 30 minutes, you gonna make it on time?

Is your username 'FunnyName?'

[junior jay]

Yes but my internet is tweaking

[cobalt dagger]

Thanks for the confirmation - I'm not allowed to tp or grow people who don't consent (On this server) so I didn't wanna grow someone unconsentually

[junior jay]

Ill try to get In again lets Hope my internet lets me

[cobalt dagger]

I will get pictures of raptor and Maia 75% speed while I wait

Here's raptor at 75%

[junior jay]

Alr im in

[cobalt dagger]

Oh wow, they're actually .1 faster I'm surprised.

[junior jay]

Told ya

[cobalt dagger]

Maybe it's because maia's stam is lower so raptors can catch up, because I know raptors catch up to maia

[junior jay]

Yeh

Can you tp and grow?

[cobalt dagger]

You're a cera right now

We're doing pachy vs raptor first aren't we?

I guess I can switch to allo hiold on

[junior jay]

Alr