balance-feedback-discussion

[tall cypress]

İf you play Good you can kill it easly xd

No turn radius

[tulip tusk]

U6 carno I learned to run from not to fight.

[faint timber]

I agree that the hitbox is bad.

[dusky surge]

It literally got a higher turn radius while ramming in U6 brother

[tropic horizon]

I killed plenty of them

But then I hopped on my own carno and that thing literally lasted the ENTIRE ERA without dying while racking up countless kills against many species. Update 6 carno was a monster.

[tropic horizon]

It had a better turn radius in ram and could ram with no stamina detriment

[tall cypress]

İ mean u3

[vale brook]

its kind of sad when running is the solution to getting away from the islands fastest predator

[faint timber]

Ugh but it was fun, I think Gateway would look great with a little nerf

[tulip tusk]

U6 was a time where I had to learn how to reliably dodge and have people lose line of sight of me..

[tropic horizon]

It was not fun at all to just, blitz everything down with no opposition unless you were against a pachy

Pachy was like, the only thing that kept U6 carno in check besides maybe a good teno and even then that teno would be mobbed by the 8 other carnos that were everywhere

Please never bring back update 6 carno

[hasty coyote]

that is the issue with carno's design philosophy. being bigger and faster than what you're meant to hunt makes it require some really specific balancing to ensure things dont just die on sight.

[faint timber]

uhh sad carno

ht canro I still couldn't support it properly I hope it was good

[faint timber]

Why is the elder utah model the same? And why do we become elders so fast? Is this just a test?

I think it's ridiculous to become an elder in five minutes.

[vale brook]

what

elder omni is a bug lol

it was left in by mistake

[faint timber]

Bu g ?????

[tulip tusk]

Wasn’t meant to be in yet

[faint timber]

HAHa this is so funny and legendary

[tulip tusk]

Accident is the more correct word ig lol

[vale brook]

i mean its not hard to imagine stuff they're working on heavily in the background can slip through

[faint timber]

Elder Utah is very good, the only shortcomings are the bite force and we become elders very fast, and the model is the same.

[tulip tusk]

don’t make me point at you…,,

[vale brook]

elder model is not the same as adult model lol

[faint timber]

I made a lot of children

[vale brook]

once again, the entire thing is bugged. take nothing there with anything but a grain of salt

[faint timber]

Yes I know it's a missing model

[hasty coyote]

iirc that is a bug and the numbers are placeholders (since they have been in the game for a while now). I doubt they are gonna make elder omni faster than pachy and pin it, thats just horrendous game balancing.

[vale brook]

the elder model currently kicks in around subadult and morphs back to adult

[faint timber]

You're right, that would be a terrible balance and I'm in favor of at least 1-3 hours being spent before we become elders.

[tulip tusk]

fr?? Lmao

[vale brook]

yeth

[faint timber]

I think only the best players should get the elder dinosaurs

[vale brook]

imagine turning into a 90 year old for a year when you turn 20 💀

[tulip tusk]

omni drinking the fountain of youth

[vale brook]

how is humanity so smart and yet so stupid

we were discovering how the planets worked and yet somehow at the same time believing in a magical fountain of youth

[tulip tusk]

i theorise it was hope and the need to explain the currently unexplainable
Death was something greatly feared, and some people could be old and look young
Either or could lead to a “fountain of youth” idea to give hope and ease fear

[carmine tundra]

@open flicker your meant to hunt smaller dibbles, not adult dibbles same goes for maia

even though ive seen more adult dibbles than juvi dibbles

[vale brook]

i run into the occasional large juvie every once in a while

but im not usually looking for diablos, S is stupidly easy for carno to get anyway via Omnis

so maybe i just forgor a lot of them

[versed sable]

balance herra jump so no longer instant kills but does significant bleed, pins and pounces when jumping. pins down prey same and 2.8x it's own weight, pouncing anything over it's weight limit and instant grab jumping or clicking rmb for anything under it's weight. jump ability can only hit one target at a time. new grab ability to grab and climb away with food or live prey but can be forced to drop if hit. higher they pounce from the more bleed damage but takes damage if misses from high heights.

looking for feedback and constructive criticisms

[near basin]

@versed sable you main stego. respectfully why is this a concern to you

[elfin night]

wouldnt it be just simpler to leave it as it is? Rather than just coding and bug fixing yet another pin that either leads to the same result or it is pointless because I don't see why herras shouldn't be taking on dilos

The whole thing of not instantly killing just puts you at risk for doing something right, you NEED that burst and cc

[versed sable]

https://medal.tv/games/the-isle/clips/kjTd3CHf1a0qbQtt-?invite=cr-MSxIUVEsMjg4NjAyNDY3

[elfin night]

what's wrong with that?

[versed sable]

it killed both of us

we had no chance

[elfin night]

yeah, you two got ambushed and obliterated

[versed sable]

thats why pachy is already rare as is imo

[elfin night]

looking up

Props to the herrera then, ambush hunter successfully got an ambush on two young pachies

not really, pachy suffers from other issues

you would have died as anything else in that growth stage

[versed sable]

it just lame it can get both of us in one jump

[near basin]

Notice how these brainless pachies were completely unaware of their surroundings?
They deserved that. It's completely balanced, because if they just looked up - they would have avoided it

[elfin night]

why not? it's dropping on top of you two, let it have its reward for playing better than its prey

there's many other double kill instances in this game, should we disallow those too?

[versed sable]

depends on the circumstances

[elfin night]

so, a fg herrerasaurus jumped two juvenile pachies very close to each other. Isn't that a fair double kill?

[versed sable]

the idea was being close to each other would help better defend ourselves but rewatching the video i don't think the other pachy instantly died

[elfin night]

it really depends on what you're being attacked by

with omni, sticking together works

with herrera or carno? You're granting you're both getting hit by the same blows

[alpine plover]

Theres being close and then theres back to back, you guys should give some distance between you two in forests especially, if you’re just wandering around then stay alert, if you’re chilling then find a safe bush for you both to chill in lol

[carmine tundra]

@random stump whoever downvoted your suggestion has never played carno vs teno lmao

a teno kick can do like 6 seconds of a fg raptors pounce bleed and that should be changed immediately

[crystal stream]

Carno has rlly bad bleed resistance teno doesn’t need changed Carno does

Carno also needs faster get up time it’s rlly dumb how long it takes

Teno v carnos fun but that stuff makes it way harder

[dusky surge]

it has average bleed resist (and the weakness to bleed is removed next patch)

[thorn mountain]

hey wave

have you seen the new carno stuff

[crystal stream]

The neck thing

[thorn mountain]

its a whole diff carno

swallow carno from what I have heard

[crystal stream]

lol that’s so weird

[thorn mountain]

one of the QA members had the idea

[thorn mountain]

nah it seems good I cant lie

[dusky surge]

wait wdym?

[thorn mountain]

ill send

[dusky surge]

like new carno?

[steep gazelle]

This problem has already been fixed in hordtest. Carno from the public branch dies from bleeding with just 1 kick, but Carno from hordtest can continue the fight even after 3-4 kicks (If he doesn't die from raw damage)

[carmine tundra]

oh damn really? thanks for letting me know

damn they really buffed the absolute shi out of carno in the HT

[glossy elbow]

#isle-discussion message this?

[thorn mountain]

semt it to mr poole

but yes

[crimson crater]

the basis of ambushing is to one shot lol

[open flicker]

Yeah but even a half grown dibble can half health you instantly or put your bleed at 50% with its god awful bleed resist if it’s hitting you FOUR times.

There’s literally no point growing a Carno they’re 4x more useless than cera and have a longer growth time

[carmine tundra]

point still stands, you can kill them when they are juvis and they have a lot of meat on them

[carmine tundra]

the last part you said got fixed in the HT and carno got a LOT of buffs

[versed sable]

how do you spot herras? https://medal.tv/games/the-isle/clips/kk2yFnTSh5N5b1iDN?invite=cr-MSxZWmgsMjg4NjAyNDY3

[crimson crater]

what? you can literally SEE it

[versed sable]

its very hard to see laying down i meant

[crimson crater]

yea but you can also see when they’re on a branch and about to jump

is it really that big of a problem where it needs a whole rework?

[versed sable]

just slight balance idk

[crimson crater]

eh it already works as intended

[versed sable]

maybe pachy needs buff

im just not use to being a pachy player ig

[crimson crater]

yea

[maiden temple]

I only look up when it rains, herras are ridiculously loud when the environment is quiet. The climbing 'footsteps' save me everytime 😄

To people complaining about things being on the carni diets - they're there because we all spawn as babies and you have no issues killing these babies.

[elfin night]

Still they can be pretty pointless at times

But maybe they will change and be better with more playables

Cera is never catching an actually competent deino or beipi 😭

[maiden temple]

Everything should be on carnis diets imo, so your kills are never wasted

[elfin night]

Diet system just needs a rework

As in how you feel your slots

[maiden temple]

Some meals could make you sick/hallucinate if you're not supposed to eat them but they should be a diet :c

[elfin night]

Because it’s so pointless at times

[maiden temple]

I miss having different builds, it's too generic now

[elfin night]

Imagine getting hallucinations for eating something edible that you normally don’t eat

Absolute cinema

[maiden temple]

Nuu, that'd be like eating a troo/dilo sub/adult that was full of venom and now you're hallucinating >:D

If you eat something new that you didn't have before you'd just get sick and vomit

[elfin night]

They should do my idea

Of adding stuff like gym supplements in human bases that make your dinosaurs stronger for a short time

[maiden temple]

hahaha

Carnos looking for that protein powder

[elfin night]

So we can see an Omni eating some protein powder, losing some liver and kidney efficiency in exchange of having an easier time getting stronger

Or giving them workouts at a human base gym

Herrera doing pull ups

[maiden temple]

Bulked up visuals too pls, so I can spot the dopers lmao

[elfin night]

Carno squatting 600kg 12 reps 4 sets

[maiden temple]

hahahah

[elfin night]

I actually remember when I did have horrendous balancing and gameplay suggestions

Such as when the acro model was released

And I said it would be dope to have it gaining fat as it eats and all that blubber acts as some sort of slowly decaying shield, as if you were overhealing. Now I look at that like

[maiden temple]

Sounds more suited for another dino game 👀

[elfin night]

I know

[potent fox]

Tbf that’s what organs are for and the priority should be putting as many herbis on carni diets as possible. But some stuff is still weird like how they removed dilo from carno diet condemning it to never get any lines diet again xD.

[maiden temple]

Yeah organs are a fantastic idea, they give a ton of nutrients but don't fill much hunger, bodies should do the reverse. Still more fun to have everything on your diet, gotta cull these pesky babies

[vale brook]

doesnt that negate the point of a diet system in the first place

[maiden temple]

Not really, the diet system is not complex anymore

It's just a chore

[vale brook]

it wasnt especially complex before either

[maiden temple]

This just further helps to streamline it

[vale brook]

but you might as well just remove it if everything is on everythings diet lol

completely nullifies the purpose of diets

[maiden temple]

I just don't see the purpose of not having something on a carni's diet unless it comes with negative impacts - like cannibalism in species that don't cannibalise

It just makes hunting a pain for both sides

'Not worth it, not on our diet' so it lives :c

[vale brook]

if youre maintaining a decent diet anyway you wont always need to eat purely diet food

not to mention organs as a whole can make it worth it

all 3 diet at atleast 30-40%? yes please

[maiden temple]

Eh.. maybe if you're a solo/duo tops

Big groups won't benefit much, and that's what I want to fight again tbh

[vale brook]

i mean... so?

large groups are going to have to hunt more often regardless, you'll still be getting a good chunk of diet from the organs of what you kill lol

[maiden temple]

Not really

[vale brook]

not to mention most diet lists are fairly expansive so the chances of finding something not on your diet is slimmer than finding diet

[potent fox]

@open flicker good idea for the pounce tbh. I always thought stam should be a more relevant aspect of pouncing/pinning. I like the idea of raptors only being able to pin something to death if they managed to exhaust it by quite a bit.

[vale brook]

larger groups having more difficulty maintaining diet/food is fine

thats the price you pay

you get stronger, but you need more resources

[maiden temple]

I never said it's not

[vale brook]

then why are we trying to find a solution that stops the difficulty

[maiden temple]

It doesn't, I just look for ways of getting more interaction (like we had pre-gateway)

[open flicker]

wo0uld make gameplay far more interesting than BAM dead

[thorn mountain]

@surreal perch it was shallow water thats why you died + you were already low and were a 80% croc

also they changed fall damage on the horde test

[slim dragon]

Like, you actually understood what's going on in the video ?
It's a black screen for me

[thorn mountain]

yeah I did

it was quite a high fall too lmao

its 2 logs high ofc you are going to die and its also in the shallows

[surreal perch]

The logs were avoided and i was still on green hp

[thorn mountain]

that right there

is not green

[thorn mountain]

and like I said you jumped into the shallow water not the deep part

[slim dragon]

black screen

[vale brook]

were you actually green HP or did you not hold the tab menu open long enough for it to update lol

[thorn mountain]

thats orange

[vale brook]

tis the little things

[thorn mountain]

must have taken a fall

so

[vale brook]

yah im agreeing with you

[surreal perch]

i went down one of the steps of the waterfall

[thorn mountain]

yeah

[surreal perch]

and had checked hp right after

that was what dealt the dmg

[vale brook]

as in you quickly clicked tab and exited out of it or did you wait for it to update lol

[thorn mountain]

yeah you were orange

not green

[vale brook]

cause the health takes like 1-2 seconds to update from the time you open the tab menu

[surreal perch]

how did i take that much damage from going down a small waterfall step

[vale brook]

you can be 1 hit from a troodon away from death and if you hadnt opened tab in a while, you'd see green if you just did a quick press and release

[vale brook]

youre an 4 ton crocodile

and also, its not small

you're massive, so it looks small

[thorn mountain]

@slim dragon

I increased stuff so you can see

you fell like 6 deinos high or more

talking to tiki

while on orange

[vale brook]

brother fell the entire length of a deino

atLEAST 20 feet

[thorn mountain]

more.

[vale brook]

probably closer to 30-40 in reality

[thorn mountain]

into shallow water

which is why you died on impact

[vale brook]

4 ton animals do not do well with 30+ foot drops

[thorn mountain]

if it wasnt shallow you would have fell in then died

[vale brook]

wait can we make deino explode if it falls off a mountain please

like an elephant falling from a skyscraper

[thorn mountain]

organs just splat

[surreal perch]

although an animal who is 4 tons has an increased fall damage, it also has heavily increased leg strength

and strength of pretty much everything

[vale brook]

i mean... not really lol

thats not how that works

[surreal perch]

imagine the legs you need to carry 8 tons

[vale brook]

the animal has to be built to absorb the impact of those falls

[vale brook]

thats not how animals work lol

legs made for bearing weight rarely correlate to legs made for absorbing impact

[surreal perch]

also for correlation the orange hp was due to a drop probably as big as the distance from the top of the waterfall to the f1st step maybe a little more that i stepped down to

[thorn mountain]

yeah

like I said at the start fall damage has changed already

so you dont take a small fall and drop to ornage

you go down a small fall and go down to lets say low green or high yellow

[surreal perch]

the fall as we see here from my tail touching the rocks was less then a 70-80 percent deino long

just the tail

so thats around half of the dienosuchus at 70 percent grown

so prob around 10-13 foot drop

[bronze carbon]

I was poisoned from Dilos as a deino. i was around yellow health, bleeding was not progressed. i escaped into the water and there i died in like 10 seconds. does dilo poison just kill me in an instant? how does it work? seems a bit op

[thorn mountain]

13ft drop from orange and you think you would survive

imagine having your body broken and almost dead and you fall from 13ft

[surreal perch]

13 feet is the high estimate

the low estimate is around 8-9

[thorn mountain]

no

a maias height is that while sniffing

so you are falling 2 maias sniffing length

(btw im talking abt maia to log size)

and need i remind you maias are big and tall when bipedal and sniffing

[surreal perch]

full grown deinosuchus is 39, 70 percent is prob around 27 divide that in half because only the tail tail and further reduce it cause its diag

[thorn mountain]

wdym by 39?

[surreal perch]

fg deino is 39 feet long

[thorn mountain]

ok buddy so we are doing that

a deino falls on its FACE so you falling down pushing your skull into the floor

[surreal perch]

also the water ain't shallow in the slightest

atleast 4-5 ft deep

And deinosuchus is likley to have impact resisistance

[vale brook]

using the google AI overview as a source is

something

[slim dragon]

I swear the average human IQ has halved since the creation of ChatGPT

[vale brook]

this is why snail games thought it would be a good idea to release an completely AI generated trailer

[surreal perch]

Fair point

I just don't have much time only like 2 mins before my food was done at the time

I can do some more detailed research noe

[steep gazelle]

Yes. They removed the weakness to bleeding, added + 25s of stam for normal running and charge and also reduced its growth time (it is now the same as Cerato)

[worn sentinel]

Americans will use anything but the metric system

[vale brook]

on god

[worn sentinel]

(U are American now u bum)

[vale brook]

maia burgers
omni fries
taco

i've had this conversation before

what the hell

ive just been hit with a wave of deja vu

[golden coral]

@digital surge Can you survive/escape the carno in those matchups?

And don't you need to be running to initiate a charge for that matter? Did that change?

[digital surge]

You do not have to run prior anymore to charge... you can just instantly charge

[digital surge]

Unlikely, they are faster, always

[golden coral]

Do you have to be running, or can you somehow charge from standing still, like without moving at all?

Cause I'm not talking about having to run for x seconds before charging, just that you have to be running

It's just, you're mentioning hunting a carno as a raptor or dilo, and well, no. You're not meant to, it's hunting you. It's designed to be good at hunting smaller things, not the other way around. So a carno always winning a 1v1 is as it should be, it should probably even be winning a 2v1 more often than not. Hence why escaping should be the play, though if that's not doable, then there might be an issue.

[vale brook]

small game hunter has advantage over small game in 1v1

in other news, fork found in kitchen

[digital surge]

You can charge from a standing position.

[golden coral]

Huh, that sounds new. But how would that even do anything, unless you're literally standing in front of the carno as it "charges"?

I don't suppose you or anyone got a vid showing how carno currently works with charge, cause I'm not sure I'm getting it

[steep gazelle]

@digital surge Things smaller than Carno shouldn't be able to go 1v1 with him

Only problem is that the hitbox is a bit big, reducing it a bit would help

[sleek sierra]

And worth pointing out that while carno is charging, it's maneuverability is very poor and can be dodged, or blocked using trees and rocks. I've also lured them to falling off cliffs and hills with charge being hard to stop from. You can go 1v1 with a carno. I'm not saying it's easy, just that they aren't invincible and because of their size, should be given respect in a fight with a smaller dino. But they are not the op predator on the isle at the moment so I see no reason they should lose their one good ability.

[minor axle]

Another dilo suggestion, another psyop into trying to make me actually create a dilo venom suggestion

My go to anti carno method as a dilo is just to start going goat mode on a cliff side. Bad Carno players fly off and good ones generally don’t risk it

[trail hawk]

@steep gazelle The bile works depending on the amount of food u have, that works fine I think (Also, upvoting your own comments is a bit lame tbh)

[steep gazelle]

Smaller creatures vomit with 1 bite regardless of how full their stomach is, creatures of the same weight vomit with 2 bites, larger creatures take more bites

Vomit sickness is the biggest debuff in the game, it shouldn't be applied so easily

[dusky surge]

I still think just working on what they've started in HT rather than nerfing something else is the way to go

[trail hawk]

And that works as intended. The amount of bacteria u get doesnt depend on the reciving end, but in the sender. And it's ok for a large specie to need more bites to vomit. Cera is a small/mid hunter, so it make sense. It's like bleeding. a larger dino can loose more blood than a small one

[dusky surge]

Charge bite movespeed penalties and stamcost need to be finalised

[dusky surge]

(cerato isn't really meant to be a hunter so that's not the greatest argument)

[steep gazelle]

That would be nice, but I doubt they will do it

[trail hawk]

U have a point there, but as the game works every carni is a bit of a hunter imo

[dusky surge]

Why do you doubt it lol, they literally already did the first steps

[trail hawk]

I would like a more defence focused cerato honestly

[steep gazelle]

You didn't understand. 1 bite and you're stunned for 1-5s, and you can get "hk" for that

[trail hawk]

That could get rid of some of the bacterial complains as long as people leave ceras eating all the garbage around

[steep gazelle]

They usually only stay in the first steps, they will only take more steps in other hordtest xd

[trail hawk]

I understand, but a lot of dinos stun u and more easy. A teno can stun lock u, a dible can stun u also...

The bacteria make u vomit and u are stun for a few seconds (not 5 seconds, I can asure u that) but making smaller dinos get less bacteria doesn't make any sense when a lot of smaller dinos also can outrun a cera

[steep gazelle]

A dibble/teno stun for a very short time and unique to each. Vomit stuns you for a longer time, where even the omni that has the best stun and knockdown recovery takes a while to recover and be able to run

[thorn mountain]

well they pretty much only need to adjust values and %s

[steep gazelle]

I didn't exaggerate when I said 5s, Dilo and Herrera have an animation for about that long

[trail hawk]

Again, a teno can stunlock u to death, dibles are another thing I recon, but again, there's more dinos that can stun u and no, you don't get stunned for 5 seconds, at best u are stunned for 2-3 seconds. And again, you can outrun a cera as a small dino, if you decide to face a cera when u shouldn't is your problem

[steep gazelle]

Tenonto only stunlock Carno to death, as he has a really horrible stun and knockdown recovery

[trail hawk]

Idk, maybe it's a bug, bc I saw a video yesterday of a big dino (don't remember which one) that got a longer anymation than usual, but i've played as a cera and when fighting dilos they usually get stuned for 2-3 seconds as best

[trail hawk]

And also, needing around 3 bites to apply the bile, on a target that outrun and out manuver a cera

[steep gazelle]

Being able to run doesn't mean you shouldn't be able to beat it. Bile is the main problem with Cerato, which makes it virtually untouchable for a group of omni, Dilos and pachys

[trail hawk]

Why tf do u want to fight a Cera as a pachy? and also, dilos can perfectly beat a cerato

Because they outrun and outmanuver a cera. You are talking about 2 ambush predators and one hervi and want them to face tank a cera? or what do u want?

[steep gazelle]

Why shouldn't I fight a cerato with pachy?

[dusky surge]

in many cases, pachy has to fight cera to live thanks to speed muts

[trail hawk]

Because a patchy is an hervivore and is only mean to defend itself, not being a bloodthirsty monster?

[dusky surge]

so obviously pachy should be able to defend itself, via fighting a cerato

idk why fighting a cerato is not qualified as defending itself

[steep gazelle]

I'm not saying to make bile useless, just weaker, requiring 1 more bite to make smaller creatures vomit. Cerato shouldn't be immune to smaller things, not even dibble is

[trail hawk]

It isn't inmune to smaller thing, but you can 1v1 a cera with an hervivore or with a group focused dino as a omni. Again dilos have 0 trouble beating a cera

[trail hawk]

Because again, you can outrun a cera to save u. Having mutations gives u around the same speed as a patchy, that's true, but I don't know a lot of ceras that use speed mutation and I think a patchy is still marginally faster that a cera with the night/day buff

[steep gazelle]

Cerato is currently virtually immune to smaller dinos. 1 bite = Stun = 3 free bites

[dusky surge]

lots and LOTS of ceras use speed muts, it's literally the meta choice on cera

[thorn mountain]

all ceras use speed muts 💀

[dusky surge]

you outrun a lot of creatures you otherwise couldn't, are better at cannibalising/surviving cannibalism, so on

[trail hawk]

An adult cera have like 40 speed?

[dusky surge]

yea

[trail hawk]

And the mutation gives u 15% buff, that's around 6 more speed no?

[dusky surge]

it gives you a 5% buff

15% would be INSANE

[steep gazelle]

Bro

[dusky surge]

if it were 15%, the game would be completely cooked in balance lol

[trail hawk]

Lol my bad, I counfused it with another mut

Well, anyways a cera with speed mut get around 46 speed. but that doesn't mean that said cera is mor maneuverable. As said, if u can't fight it, just run. And reengage. I don't know about omnis, but again, a dilo can get a cera poised and attack with the clones without trouble as long as the dilo isn't being dumb

[dusky surge]

we just said it doesn't get 46 lol

also being faster literally means it's more manoeuvrable lol

that is the very defenition of being more manoeuvrable

also dilo being OP and extremely easy as an argument as to why cera is fine isn't really that great, because both dilo and cera dominate the current meta

and in the case of some animals, they can't just run, because pachy and teno both get outclassed in speed by a speed mut cera

[trail hawk]

I didn't say dilo being op is why cera is ok. I just said that dilo can perfectly fight it, as the other guy was saying it wasnt. how much a cera can run with the perfect muts??

[dusky surge]

A bit over 42km/hr, which puts it above the speed of both pachy and teno

[trail hawk]

Because if the buff is a 5% is even less that I was assuming. And about the maneuverability, just speed isnt being maneuverable. The turn radious stays the same and thats how you maneuver

[dusky surge]

And cera has one of the best turns of any animal in this game

[trail hawk]

they can't use the same mut to stay at the same speed? bc I don't think muts are a reason to nerf anything but the mut itself

Is like wanting to nerf any dino bc gastro, just nerf gastro

[hazy echo]

as a visual to my Migration zone being 1/2 or 1/3 full comment, this is about as far away as it should appear:

[jovial vessel]

Pachy should have an easier time breaking cera legs or stunning it so it CAN get away because ceras can just bite your tail to death (yay balance) as you run away

[dusky surge]

Or just make the small tier animal a little bit more on-par with the rest of the speeds of its tier

Herrera: 45
Omni: 46.8
Dilo: 47.5
Galli: 55.4
Pachy: 41.8???

Like goddamn it should be slow for its size but that's NUTS

I think around the 43 mark would be a little more reasonable at least

[jovial vessel]

Pachy is way too slow fr - been playing it a lot lately and its slow as hell

[dusky surge]

Yea for sure. It's actually a better animal at sub-adult because it has such great speed, then it cascades into being infinitely worse lol

[jovial vessel]

like cera is disgustingly fast for what its supposed to be

[shrewd jungle]

hwhwat

cera is slow as balls

faster than a flyer, a penguin, a croc, hypsi, the thing that 1 shots it, and the thing that cripples it in 1 shot

[coarse blaze]

#balance-feedback message Omni doesn't need more bleed

[keen plover]

Omni's bleed is cracked wth

bite speed should be faster though

[crimson crater]

why do people believe that its bleed is bad lol

[thorn mountain]

cause they dont hold right click 💀

[dusky surge]

because the process of bleeding inherently requires more skill than the process of damaging, and it's harder to tell how bled something is

[tight cove]

I just posted in the balance feedback tab and bro almost instantly ❌ it, bro didn't even read the whole thing yet 😂 😭

[slim dragon]

I'm a fast reader

[tight cove]

alright

[dusky surge]

"Make omni counterplay worse than it even is"

lol

[tight cove]

explain

[tight cove]

The devs can play around with the numbers but with the pounce miss animation and the bucking buff why couldn’t someone be able to defend themselves from at least a few Omnis?

[elfin night]

Ngl I think all rocks should also knock Omnis off your back if you run yourself against them

[elfin night]

You would be condemning dilo and pachy, and obviously not counting subadults of other large playables and upcoming small creatures

Because omni has more than enough damage to kill dilo and pachy in one pounce

And justifying it by “maybe Omni could miss and lose some stam if it doesn’t pounce you point blank” is not a very good argument to justify a one shot move being extended to larger things

Omni is such a solid pick even alone. It’s just jank what kills it quite often

[tight cove]

@elfin night in my post I also said to buff bucking, that would make pachy and dilo be able to survive better

[elfin night]

good

I hate gambling, but I would still keep the terrain thing, just for trees, rocks and water

[slim dragon]

What if you can only scrape omnis off trees while sprinting
Guess pachy's still screwed tho

[hasty coyote]

pachy stays losing

[slim dragon]

If only it still had the ability to parry pounces

[viscid mica]

@digital surge carno can’t charge out of standing they have to start running then engage and even then if they aren’t at top speed on start it still takes a second to fully get going

Let alone do max damage

@tight cove removing knock off from trees would leave players with 1 counter to omni that devours majority of their stam animation locks you and is not even a Garantee this would take omni from being top tier hunter to the god of the hunt himself

[tight cove]

As I’ve said said bucking would get buffed so dealing with Omnis is manageable

[viscid mica]

Bucking is trash, easily countered by omnis and would need to be given the same effect as getting knocked off by trees (short term stun) to be worth anything

Omnis are easily the strongest group hunter by a large margin

[tight cove]

Yeah as long as the target isn’t using a single tree

[tight cove]

Let’s say bucking got off an Omni within a few secs and the stam cost was low, why can’t that be implemented?

If bucking got rid of an Omni very quickly and took little stam, plus the missed pounce animation being re added a player should be able to fight back against 3-4 Omnis

Against a full 8 pack of Omnis though your probably gonna die but hey that goes for a full pack of almost anything tbh, a full pack of ceras kill everything in their way regardless

[viscid mica]

Because it’s completely un punishing for over extending your pounce its make the whole pounce mechanic extremely skilless in high tier combat

[viscid mica]

Self stun is a terrible thing that shouldn’t exist

Ex see pachy

[viscid mica]

I mean ya? Trees ain’t saving you from a full stack either

[crimson crater]

mfw the plains hunter performs poorly in dense jungles

[tight cove]

Alright yeah I understand that, but at least for Omni it’s only for if you fail your pounce and not not if you land it like how pachy gets a self stun for landing its hit for some reason

[tight cove]

Ngl bro it does 😭

[viscid mica]

Skill issue

[tight cove]

All it takes is one tree not even in a jungle

[viscid mica]

I still despise self stuns do you suddenly stop moving when you do a sprinting leap?

[tight cove]

I mean yeah I guess your right, anytime a large group of Omnis try to fight me I just use a tree and there’s nothing they can do to kill me 😂

[viscid mica]

Respectfully learning how to play in a group around trees is what separates good omnis from great omnis

I’ve seen some omni groups that absolutely decimate people no matter the size of their group or how dense the foliage is and I’ve seen ones who can barely handle 1 teno who huge a single tree

[tight cove]

Fair

[viscid mica]

Omni is one of those that on the lower end of skill feels painful to play while on the high end is insanely strong

[tight cove]

I agree it all depends on the skill lvl for both parties but I can definitely say that since if someone uses a tree that disables the use of Omnis special ability for the most part the odds are in the prey’s favor.

This is also how Ik that allo’s are never touching a smart stego player 😂

[viscid mica]

Yup that’s why if your not confident in your ability pick your fights well

[viscid mica]

Imma be real no matter how good the allo group a confident stego is dangerous

1 hit does well over half their health

[random stump]

https://discordapp.com/channels/401464048610312193/778350260027129865/1374501664274386946

"In a 1v1 scenario, carno will always win against (pack hunter half its size) and (pack hunter half its size)"

this is a problem because???

[viscid mica]

It’s not a problem

If your that good as carno than it’s simply a skill issue

[random stump]

yeah ik its not a problem i pressed ❌

[viscid mica]

If we wanna talk about something hard countered by tress let’s talk carno XD

[random stump]

im just suprised someones mad that their small tier packhunter cant epicly solo the dino twice its size

especially when said larger creature is DESIGNED EXPLICITLY to hunt things smaller then itself

[viscid mica]

Freight train go brrrrrrr

Carno is silently the strongest for hunting things its weight and below

[random stump]

yeah, poor thing just dies the moment it gets close to anything bigger then itself or gets stunned in any manner by something like a teno

[tight cove]

Teno literally nukes carno it’s wild

[random stump]

thats one of the things i hope gets changed, where an animal is meant to be able to take a hit from another and get away (like carno vs maia or teno) but instead it just gets 1 shot combo'd because of an overly long stun/getting stunlocked every time it stands back up

[viscid mica]

If your in a duo and it’s not a amazing teno it’s not actually a hard fight

[tight cove]

Indeed

[random stump]

https://discordapp.com/channels/401464048610312193/778350260027129865/1374826273037094963

maia is pretty explicitly designed to be a run away animal (for the most part)

also if you die to a solo cerato/teno as a maia then uhhh

skill issue

[vale brook]

balance feedback should be renamed to skill issue announcements

[viscid mica]

Ngl Maia in HT can get it thou

Def got some hands

[haughty grotto]

@sudden reef I don't understand the point of your post.
You say these things but... What's the problem? That's exactly how it should be. Omni pack killing a lone teno out in the field is a very normal and balanced thing. Why are we talking about this like it's an issue or something? Omni or anything else for that matter gotta eat bro

[sudden reef]

someone didnt read the whole thing

[haughty grotto]

Someone read the entire thing 5 times trying to figure out what the problem is

It's a moderately easy win, like sure, that's perfectly okay lol. Why do you want to nerf by adding the stagger?
Please do not try to downplay the skill it takes to coordinate pouncing.

Pouncing and latching is also a huge stam drain on the omnis.

[hasty coyote]

@still forge Thats the exact balancing premise of maia, its faster than an omniraptor and 3.8 tons, it can't be insane at combat. If it turned well maia would bully the small things, and keeping its damage low allows the larger dinos to fight back. In the HT, its alt attacks are all getting major speed buffs, so it can consistently hit things while standing its ground. This should help maia actually be able to hit the few things that are faster, and help it try to stand its ground against stuff like cera. Honestly its a good buff that only helps it defensively, but it may make maia too strong.

[sudden reef]

No one and i mean no one should be struggling to land a pounce lol, probably one of the easiest mechanics in the game

[haughty grotto]

How can you possibly say something so wrong so confidently? You are factually and statistically incorrect.
Pounce is the most difficult ability in the game to effectively bring down a target with.
Go over the entire roster and tell me if there is a single rmb ability that is more complicated with so many nuances. You will not find any.
Horn charge? Ram? Tree jump? Spit? Charge bite? Water lunge grab? Headbutt? Calling clones? Tail strike?
Please tell me a single one that is more complicated or harder to land.

Pounce. It's incredibly easy to hit a teammate. It's plagued by horrible desync. It requires the best stamina management out of all playables in the game. It is the only rmb ability that can be countered or reversed by multiple methods, such as terrain, or bucking, or outstamming, or literally just having one single packmate accompanying you.
So tell me, please, why do you want to nerf an already weak and easy to kill playable? Nobody even fears a raptor pack anymore. They're annoying nuisances at best, who kill each other while they try to kill you.

In an ideal world, I would like to see omni's absurd 1v1 uncounterable pin to smaller creatures be nerfed, and everything else including its pack threat to larger creatures buffed.

[golden coral]

Most of what you mentioned are either A, not relevant to the statement at all, or B, doesn't actually disprove it at all. Using, and landing, a pounce, is no more difficult than any other attack really. It never was, it was always rather easy to land a pounce, outside of the time where only the side angles worked, and even then it was quite doable.

[haughty grotto]

I wrote a massive paragraph explaining why the concept of pounce is difficult.
Pouncing doesn't involve just clicking rmb and landing it. It's not a charge bite.
You cannot isolate just 'landing a pounce'. Landing a pounce does absolutely nothing to the target.
If you want to talk about pounce, the difficulty involved is with regards to stamina management, desync, hitting teammates and the fact that it is easily counterable/reversible.
It takes an absurd amount of stamina, risk and latch time to do damage anywhere near any of the rmb abilities of other dinos.

So yes, it is extremely relevant to the statement.

[cedar jacinth]

@thorn mountain good suggestion but I have one argument. They need to keep making sure they make the map feel alive and not just a few hotspots that's true. Petit has like 6 diff hotspots though. It's more spread out then you are giving credit for.

[crystal stream]

Yall should check out my feedback and leave thoughts and opinions 😉

[hasty coyote]

it already has other attacks than just peck, its alt attacks are actually very strong for its size

[crystal stream]

True but not only are they extremely difficult to land they have a very long cooldown so if you do miss one which you will it gets punished very severely

Troodon can juke or just straight up get lucky and faze right threw them half the time

[hasty coyote]

to be fair, thats how a lot of attacks work at that size. troodon has just as hard of a time trying to catch a dryo. Especially if that dryo uses dodge and uses bushes.

[warm flax]

same problem with ai, chicken and rabbits basically doesn't exist in the game

[potent fox]

I agree that that’s what Maias concept should be be and for a lot of players it’s a skill issue but the amount of Maias I’ve seen get completely destroyed by a single carni is crazy. Running tends to work against exactly cera and even then if they are determined enough they can probably track you down. It’s main Strat of stunning into running away never works bc if the carnis got that close they will be able to track you every time. Nesting is absolutely miserable often bc Maia can’t abuse safe places and is incredible bad at defending its young so when your nest is being attacked it’s basically over. What I’m saying is Maia shouldn’t be a brawler but it should at least be enjoyable to play. That’s probably what the horde test changes will do but I understand the frustration of lots of players when it comes to Maia.

[still forge]

I didnt want it to turn well, I wanted it to turn just so it can stand its ground from ceras or something else

[potent fox]

Ceras are absolutely unplayable for Maia. You can kill 1 maybe 2 but the vomit lock is incredibly effective against Maia and cera is super agile for its size and dmg. You gotta just avoid them and hope they aren’t smart enough to track you

[dusky surge]

skilled maias can clean up ceras crazy good, idk man

[potent fox]

Goes both ways but that’s good I suppose

[dusky surge]

maia has one of the highest skill ceilings in the game imho, combining stances, stam management, attack combos, etc

it's very hard to effectively fight with if you DON'T understand all of its many niche little things, but luckily, it can also run

[potent fox]

For sure I love playing it definitely my main but whenever I play with someone else they are having a truly awful time

[dusky surge]

i think a lot of people sleep on maia because it doesn't have any immediate value or ease of play like with animals such as cerato

[potent fox]

I think it’s pretty easy to explain tho. The game is no tutorial ofc and learning and understanding Maia is pretty much impossible without dying a lot before understanding it’s kit

[potent fox]

Je agreed

I just got triggered by watching a 70+ Maia get bleed out by a single solo raptor yesterday

[hasty coyote]

The main issue Maia suffers from is the attacks being EGREGIOUSLY long, which I agree 100% is an issue. Especially against the fast predators it actually has to fight. Which is why I think the ht changes are good.

However, if Maia can consistently stand it’s ground to a cera, what is there cera supposed to do? It can’t run since it’s slower, it’s too fat to dodge everything(especially since Maia has solid stam) and if it tries to fight it will likely lose. Currently, maia at least has the option to avoid cera to begin with and still have the potential to win, and if things get risky, it still can just run through the forest and lose the cera. Maybe I have only fought bad ceras, but the moment it goes south, I book it,, make a turn or 2, sit in a bush, and live just fine.

Also about nesting, you’ll have multiple Maias, and multiple Maias are terrifying. Because you can maybe dodge one, but good luck dodging multiple.

[hasty coyote]

Turning won’t help it defensively since it already has alts for each direction, all buffing it’s turning will do is help it run down ceras offensively.

[hasty coyote]

I honestly think that ht changes will make Maia op, but no one will recognize because who would think Maia of all dinosaurs would be the best at combat lmao.

[dusky surge]

on one hand, it is losing out on a lot of viability in growth AND it's great swimspeed

on the other, yea, it is going to be a true monster in the plains

[potent fox]

Je the incredible long attack delays animations and recovery times just feel like artificial difficulty which makes it even less attractive to new players. And je its sadly true that Maia would be the perfect bully dino if it was a better fighter. I will say tho you definitely got fairly lucky with those ceras. I already got tracked by ceras that I didn’t even engage in combat with. As long as it’s 3 or more they can coordinate their stam in a way where they can get u even if you straight line them. The only time I got away is when i chose a place to hide/log that was hard to get on so I barely got away by logging. Nesting thing is definitely kinda true but up to this point it was always just me and 1 more adult. And yes it’s easy to bully lots of carnis but if they truly want your nest or kids they can probably get them. I’m bias tho bc I got my kids kicked to death by a galli once which doesnt rlly count.

[hasty coyote]

https://tenor.com/view/gallimimus-the-isle-sus-gif-3749963715571681476

[hasty coyote]

Honestly tho, Maia is just a tricky thing to balance, it goes against one of the main principles of this game’s balance by being both bigger and faster than a lot of dinos, especially dinos who don’t have an “escape button” like many of the small tiers (namely cera and teno). On top of that, they made it cc heavy, low damage but cc sounds good on paper, but in practice it ends with some poor small Dino getting run at and stunlocked by something it can barely hurt.

I think the attack speed changes are great, the attacks were WAY too slow for something that deals like 100 damage. Plus it should now make it able to handle things MUCH easier defensively, including ceras. While it’s a good change since it removed a major vulnerability from Maia, it also lessened its only vulnerability.

[dusky surge]

it does now have a major vulnerability in water tbf, which is a little nice

if you swim away from maia it's gonna likely lag behind majorly

[potent fox]

How so? Did the reduce swim speed?

[dusky surge]

significantly

[hasty coyote]

Maia still grows in like 2 hours, so being weaker while small is bad, it’s minimal and Maia was already horrible while growing. Though the swim nerf does at least give cera and teno an easy escape now (if they are nearby a river and there’s no deino)

[hasty coyote]

It is good, but it’s also niche as I can count on one finger the amount of times I have seen a Maia cross water in a fight (and it was running away from my dilo)

[potent fox]

Yup and the alt attacks are specifically the ones you don’t use to bully and run down smaller Dinos so good choice there

[potent fox]

Damn sad I always liked it’s swamp playstyle a little. I assume they didn’t increase its water pool in return?

[thorn mountain]

put this in gen feedback discussion IK im just proving a point for majority of the players

[elfin night]

Am I the only one who, balance and design wise, perceives the carnivore roster as such irredeemable ass?

Like whenever my cursor hovers over that list I feel like the only ones worth playing to have fun are troodon and cera

We really need semi aquatics to add actual variety

[warm flax]

https://discordapp.com/channels/401464048610312193/778350260027129865/1375003421202972693
@ornate spruce what about deino? make it a built in trait once it hits 100% growth?

[dusky surge]

I don't understand why people think giving every mut a downside would make the game somehow more balanced lol

[potent fox]

Yes they should be unique and impact gameplay but not impact fights directly id say. You could probably get away with making some that have downsides but it shouldn’t be the norm.

[elfin night]

yeah just kill all combat muts

and instead add a lot more survival ones because the current list is also pretty bad

no one cares about barometric sensitivity or enlarged meniscus

[dusky surge]

enlarged meniscus is cool wdym

[elfin night]

I pick it whenever I want to nest as deino

[ornate spruce]

Deinosuchus had a strong need to drink salt water? Funny. I play as Deinosuchus and I came to the conclusion that this is the most useless mutation for it. Any questions?

[ornate spruce]

The game will become more variable. You can set perks for yourself, or you can leave everything as is and not have any disadvantages in all parameters compared to an animal with mutations. How can you not understand this?

Most likely, you don't understand why this is necessary, because you like the feeling of improving something without debuffs. It's so familiar and cool. That's the whole answer.

[elfin night]

clueless unironically

deino's existence is a gamble, way more of a gamble if you don't move all the way to sp

[dusky surge]

I completely understand what you mean, the issue is I understand too well what it will do

It forces mutations to be powercrept to justify the addition of downsides, as well as disincentivises nesting (as you might spawn with some colossal weaknesses), forces a meta even HARDER by picking the mutations with the strongest abilities for the downsides and gamifies a system designed originally to reward players by adding punishment

It is inherently a game design nightmare

[ornate spruce]

So what's the point of doing it this way, that if you don't put mutations until it's fully grown, the first and second mutation links just become unavailable? Where's the reward?

If the missing links are not used, then either they are not needed, or the player is being laughed at. Do you agree? If they are not needed, then mutations need to be weakened. If they are important, then it should not be the case that they simply disappear if the player forgets to place them. That is somehow not right.

[steep gazelle]

The biggest problem I have with Maia is that he can't switch stances when he takes damage. Even without the hordtest buffs, if this was fixed Maia would be much stronger because of his combos

[hasty coyote]

That too, which is also fixed in ht at least.

[crimson crater]

#balance-feedback message @main sky the spit mechanic shouldn’t really be used offensively, just something you wanna use to disorientate your opponent and escape. further more for an animal of that size it taking on things within that range is a bit much

not every small tier has to be a glass cannon imho

[viscid mica]

Omni sacrifice speed for agility while dilo do the opposite omnis already win 1v1s easily I can’t imagine how badly Omnis would destroy dilos if they where faster too

@young pike

[young pike]

Omnis do not destroy dilos 1v1 easily. All it takes is a bite or two to be envenomated, blind, and attacked by clones which do a ridiculous amount of damage. Dilos are much tankier and do way more damage than Omnis. That fight is in the dilos favor.

[viscid mica]

If your getting hit your doing it wrong

[young pike]

That’s a horrible argument

[viscid mica]

You can legit side step dilos at full speed and get around to hit a pounce

[viscid mica]

Being unskilled is horrible argument

[young pike]

I’m not unskilled, Omni has a way higher skill ceiling than dilo.

Dilo is easy mode compared to Omni

[viscid mica]

Absolutely

I’m not saying it isn’t

[young pike]

Then how can you say an Omni easily defeats dilo in 1v1? That makes no sense

[viscid mica]

But to change the speed would have a drastic effect on dilo and omni relationships and would give your average and below omnis a massive advantage

[young pike]

Omni has to work way harder to secure that kill than the dilo

[viscid mica]

Because you can

[viscid mica]

Ya and that’s a good thing

Omnis combat potential is significantly more threating than dilo

Dilos are limited by the fact that turning takes 3 years

God forbid you accidentally get stuck on something

[young pike]

Alt bite

[viscid mica]

Plus you can’t turn quickly like omni

[viscid mica]

Animation locks you for 2.5 seconds

[young pike]

Their turning isn’t that bad though. And like I said it only takes one or two bites to make an Omni blind

[viscid mica]

It’s pretty bad

[young pike]

It’s not so bad that it’s a determining factor in that fight. I’m not talking about the 99th percentile of players fighting each other

[viscid mica]

Well 1 but that’s why you shouldn’t get hit or should avoid dilos if your not confident since you can traverse terrain way easier

[viscid mica]

Any omni even slightly above average is winning most 1v1s with dilos

I haven’t lost a 1v1 as omni v dilo in ages

[young pike]

I disagree, if both players are evenly skilled I think dilos win

[viscid mica]

The problem is dilos skill cap is significantly lower

Sure on average level dilos win

But that’s fine

They are heavier, faster, and a venom based hunter meaning hit and run

They aren’t a easy fight but once you learn how to out manoeuvre them they are light work

[young pike]

And just to be clear, I don’t think Omnis need to be equal to dilos stat wise, but I think Omnis need something.

[viscid mica]

They really don’t

With enough practice there is barely anything in the current roaster a solo omni can’t beat

We’re as dilo has limits

[young pike]

I don’t think it’s healthy to balance the roster in terms of potential. If every player was cracked and an expert in movement and combat then that’s one thing. But most players are average or casual.

[viscid mica]

Ya but omni shouldn’t have advantage on the low end over something just under double its size

Especially when that thing can’t climb like omnis

And has a significantly smaller group limit

[young pike]

That’s my point. They made Omni huge, its model isn’t that much smaller than a dilo. Its model could be made smaller to reduce its hotbox due to how much squishier it is, and stamina drain shouldn’t be that bad as an adult. A couple pounces and you are forced to chill out. The pounces don’t even do that much damage, and tenos and herras do more bleed

[viscid mica]

It’s a lot smaller than you’d think, length, height and what not

What do you mean stam drain?

If you pounce from full stam till none it’s 1k damage

[young pike]

I mean how much stamina you drain from running, pouncing, and jumping. And that damage sounds good, but you don’t often get to just get a full pounce off on something from full stam, and you risk not having any in reserves

[viscid mica]

No not often but even if you land a pounce form 70% that’s more than enough to solo a FG dilo

[crimson crater]

it’s the complete opposite, omni is tiny and somehow bigger than galli and the size of a pachy. in reality it looks 365-400

[golden coral]

So maybe adjust omni weight to size and lower the weight, but better the stamina management and such in return

[golden coral]

You kind of have to take it into account, since everyone can get better, and you need to have an idea of what the "max" that can be done is. Someone is bound to achieve it, and you don't want to suddenly have a scenario when something happens that should not be happening, because you didn't take the actual stats and potential into account.

[viscid mica]

Omni is objectively fine minus afew bugs and QoL stuff

[hasty coyote]

clones are op, yes, and they need a nerf. But 1-2 pounces also kill a dilo. A bleed pounce and then running away will make that dilo bleed out if it chases, or 2 damage pounces will just kill it. The speed difference is about 1kph, which isnt much unless you're on top of each other, and omni's high agility and dilo's low agility allows omni to make distance easily, especially if it uses bushes to break los and confuse the dilo. If omni was also faster than dilo, then dilo would just die. Speed is the only way it has to reach the omni to hit it since it has poor agility and really bad alt attacks. So losing the slight speed advantage will make dilo die on sight as it would have no options to deal with omni.

[crimson crater]

i honestly think its stamina is fine as is, if you do short pounces you can regenerate some stamina over time and whittle down your opponent slowly, or have someone cover up for you after you’ve dumped your stamina bar on your prey. it is a pack hunter after all (also omni got a massive buff in stamina this HT)

[hasty coyote]

eh, it really needs a scrape+buck rebalance, standing by a tree or rock and scraping omnis nullifies them and bucking is flat out detrimental.

[viscid mica]

https://tenor.com/view/pikachu-gif-13575853101874488635

[viscid mica]

Bucking is worthless for 1 side and the scrape can be countered by timing

[young pike]

I didn’t know about the stam buff in ht, I’m sure that will help.

[viscid mica]

Wait omni got stam buff in HT?

How much damage is max pounce now than?

[crimson crater]

1.5K (neutral) iirc

[viscid mica]

WHAT THE FFFFFFF

That’s insane

You can solo a cera with just 1 pounce

My got we’ve created a monster

[hasty coyote]

the stam buff is only for neutral pounce, not when you are dealing damage

so it can deal like 1.5k, but it takes like 5 minutes to deal lol

[viscid mica]

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

I mean that’s still a lot you can just duo pin and wait even if lower stam

[hasty coyote]

the same buff was given to troo, which helps troo a lot more since it deals damage on contact

[hasty coyote]

you can also just sit on its back and not deal damage to just nuke its stam, even if it bucks you off, its net positive for one omni, let alone multiple.

stam nuke omni and troo are viable options now

[viscid mica]

The only problem with troos is its speed now

[viscid mica]

Real

I knew of troo

Didn’t know they did anything to omni

[hasty coyote]

omni is just getting more buffs that increase its max potential, while keeping its minimum still ridiculously low.

[viscid mica]

I see I see

That’s honestly fine if you ask me

Get Gud

[hasty coyote]

I'dd much rather they decrease the disparity, because currently, you either hard counter the omnis and they struggle immensely, or you don't and you lack the tools to deal with them.

[young pike]

I think having a larger stam pool will help with more casual players trying to play Omni in general so we’ll see how it plays out

[hasty coyote]

Like if I just stick near a tree, they can only pounce for like half a second each time or I scrape them. Meanwhile If I'm in the open, I jsut die because they either deal 1000 damage a pounce or I burn half my stam on average per pounce

[hasty coyote]

the stam buff its getting is only affecting neutral pounce and the cost to start the pounce, not the cost to deal damage. So unless the new player can manage a LONG fight, its gonna struggle just as much as now.

[young pike]

even reducing the stam cost to pounce goes a long way

initial pounce I mean

[warm cloak]

Cus they’re getting hit and dying and that’s part of the game

[elfin night]

Shooter hypsi sure is one of the suggestions ever made

[steep gazelle]

In the videos I saw of the hordtest, it seems that Maia still has this "bug"

[hasty coyote]

well the devs said it was fixed, and it did seem to be fixed at first. wonder if it broke again

[steep gazelle]

They said they fixed it? I looked at the announcements and didn't see anything about it

[hasty coyote]

yeah chcecking again it aint in the announcement, may have been a dev in chat who said it, but I am 90% sure it was said to be fixed. Tho if it aint, then it doenst matter either way, it still needs to get fixed.

[steep gazelle]

I tested it and Maia still can't change stance when making sounds, unfortunately

[hasty coyote]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/855527844670865438/1335313778421665854/CeratoGaspBoom.gif

That’s not good

[still light]

WHY IS TENOS KICK A 360 DEGREE ATTACK??????

[dusky surge]

it isnt lol

[still light]

I have video proof that it is on multiple encounters

[tropic falcon]

As you being the teno or someone else? Cause it can always be the crud hitboxes

[tall cypress]

Bad ping, lag or sum

[still light]

I just here to complain I appreciate you all

[versed sable]

pachy needs a different animation when it lands a ram attack that bounces it back farther but still able to run and faster then if it were to miss and the ability to walk backwards that is all

[minor axle]

#balance-feedback message

worst suggestion I’ve seen in awhile.

Omnis are being required to actually pay attention to their environment is hardly a bad thing.

Then being plains focused also gives hunted players time to react and determine fight/flight/etc. letting them ignore trees etc will allow very annoying Omni forest jumps.

#balance-feedback message

I don’t play too many herbis, I prefer my omnivores, but it definitely seems like a cool idea. They could have migrations be like rings with dots on them, where the plants grow around in a ring style. But that might seem too artificial

[analog berry]

being stuck isnt fun <@&401466542140817419>

[fallen cave]

type /unstuck

[spark wedge]

We also don't have the ability to get you unstuck. If /unstuck doesn't work, you'll want to ping the official server admin role in the appropriate channel such as #evrima-na

[analog berry]

i did but didnt work

[fallen cave]

Do what Jayo suggested, ServerAdmins will assist you in-game if any are available but do so in the respected channel as this is a feedback discussion

[proud latch]

"ServerAdmins will assist you in-game if any are available" ? There are admins in the official servers randomly moderating/watching?

[fallen cave]

Similar to how I moderate or watch this Discord, yes I would think they do so.

[proud latch]

They get to play while on their job? where do i sign up?

[fallen cave]

It isn't a job it's voluntary, you're free to apply if you'd like. They aren't monitored 24/7 as all Administration alike have reality to attend to.

Anyway, this isn't a discussion to have had here. If you need assistance, follow the above message.

[knotty lance]

Im not sure if this is intended but dilo clones being invisibile is kind of broken. Just lost a 50% omni because we were fighting a dilo, and seemingly doing well, until me and other omni just dropped dead to nothing after being envenomated. He was spamming clones on us, as dilo's right thats their ability, but how am I supposed to survive when taking decent dmg from the bite AND being attacked from clones I cannot see. There is no way to avoid it.

[hasty coyote]

yeah the clones are def op atm, and them being invisible is a bug.

[knotty lance]

Ah makes sense, super frustrating when both of us die to it though all our work lost over something out of our control

[keen plover]

@vagrant plover you're not meant to hunt trikes. You're meant to avoid them.

[vagrant plover]

@keen plover tell that to the tricks that run into the water to hunt deinos

[hasty coyote]

Then bite them in the butt, they can’t turn fast, you can literally tail ride a trike to death in the water

Allowing deino to grab 1.25x its weight means they 1-shot and drown other adult deinos in the water

[trim flicker]

Do you know why or if it's just my mind that in this update playing with the deino is more difficult because the fish don't give enough food?

[keen plover]

You're meant to swim away from them.

[vagrant plover]

How is that supposed to work? They'd drown at the same time?

Than the funktion can only work on terrestrial creatures, not semi-aquatic ones, for better balance.

[hasty coyote]

When deino grabs something, it changes its O2 to a set duration (iirc it’s around 15 seconds) it’s why deinos can already drown smaller deinos and stegos (stegos naturally have a whole minute of O2).

Also I agree with the second part as the mechanic also just means even juvie deinos can force out most semi-aquatics. But I really don’t think deino needs it. It already 1-shots the majority of the roster and has 2 really simple options to deal with a trike: avoid or tail ride. It doesn’t need to just insta win literally every fight because there will be dinos who deinos can’t grab. Like should deinos be able to grab 2x their weight in water to grab shants? Or 3x their weight in water to deal with camas? Or however much it would need to be to deal with a brachi?

[vagrant plover]

Not in the water. That's not triks element.
If Deino is on the lans, he should get out.
If Trike is in the water, he should get out.

[keen plover]

Deino is intended to punchdown. Hence the grab ranges it has. It's not meant to be attacking things larger than itself at all.

[viscid mica]

@pastel ocean pachy well needing some love doesn’t need that much love

@vagrant plover you can grab stego as a FG if they swim, and trikes are far beyond your insta kill range as deino I don’t think spending 12 hours just to get 1 tapped by something that takes half that to grow is exactly fun and engaging

[vale brook]

@vagrant plover #balance-feedback message you are in for quite a surprise when spino drops

[thorn mountain]

#balance-feedback message @vagrant plover you know your suggestion means you can just 1 tap fg deinos right

[potent fox]

Je that’s honestly the one thing that matters here. You could make it so it specifically doesn’t work on deino but the point is that growing an apex should reward you by not having to be afraid anymore at some point.

[viscid mica]

Afraid of anything less than another true apex

[potent fox]

Je ofc and if something like a cera mega pack shows up you will probably also be scared but it should never be a 1 shot or fight that you can’t win.

[viscid mica]

Roughly ya

Anky is god of defence in thou

[viscid mica]

Bigger things to come youngling far bigger things @merry willow

[maiden temple]

@steep echo I also hate the cd on normal bite on raptor, it's a nightmare :c

Not sure about the alt attacks since dilo can turn ridiculously well and I get hunted by these a lot

They drift, not turn, especially when they have higher ping than mine

[steep gazelle]

@edgy summit Fall damage has been greatly reduced in hordtest

[edgy summit]

Ah okay my bad I don't usually go on hoardtest so I had no idea. Thanks for the info !

[elfin night]

@steep furnace realism matters nothing when it comes to game balance

Dibble has to be that way due to how the roster is

@pastel ocean pachy knocking over fg carnos

@merry willow if anything stego is in need of a buff with the two upcoming playables

It’s so ass without tactile and it just has the upper hand in the live branch because no one is the right size or had the right kit to hunt it

Other than dibble and other stegos

[viscid mica]

@late torrent you seem to not understand legacy bleed all it was, was passive damage over time the bigger you were the more you did that’s it no unique res or amount just size scaling

[late torrent]

I understand that is a passive dmg , and all dinos where geting diferent dmg from bleed

thats why its unique

[viscid mica]

But it wasn’t

Compared to evirma bleed legacy bleed is as stock basic as it gets

[late torrent]

Bleed in legacy was in did much less complex , but it was an actual tool in fight

as I said I rarely die to bleed , as well as I rarelly see my prey bleed out

[tall cypress]

You doing something wrong then. But i have say it it isnt easy to bleed out someone without raptor or Herrera.

[viscid mica]

Bleed is meant as a utility and only really to be used for killing my very specific Dino’s now

Bleed reduces stam, regen speed, resistance to damage to name afew it’s a multi purpose item now instead of a default damage dealer

If we had legacy stock damage over time bleed it just makes combat feel more rushed and less engaging

Kills a lot of the intensity of drawn out fights and reverts to making apex’s just that much more op as nothing else has any method to kill them

[late torrent]

I wasnt asking to bring back the old system , only 2 aspect , that dinos will deal diferent amounts of bleed , not based on bite forse , and that we will have an actual bleed res not just different blood pools

[viscid mica]

They have both of those

Every Dino has different level of bleed res and everything (and attack) does a different amount of bleed unless it’s blunt damage

[late torrent]

They have only one , its based on weight of dino , as I said 500 kg stego will lose the same amout of blood as 500 kg pachy , and attacks do diferent amount of bleed, but not because they do have different bleed dmg , but bc they do diferent dmg and bleed is based on dmg you deal

[viscid mica]

Cera-carno-dilo-dibble

Using 1 example while the entire rest of the roaster has different bleed res at equal sizes

Pachy has atrocious bleed but your comparing a FG small to a basically fresh spawn stego

Why not compare growth % for aging phases were they stuff actually kicks in

[vale brook]

not entirely true

the only animals with inherent bleed resistence is cerato (until wounded) and deino

[viscid mica]

ATM

But the bleed values are different

[vale brook]

depending on what animal inflicts the bleed, yah

[viscid mica]

Like a Maia got a whole lot more blood in it thank pachy

[vale brook]

yeah, blood pool = HP

or weight, not HP

HP and weight are the same thing until they arent, lol

[viscid mica]

Real

[viscid mica]

And than we aren’t accounting for those with the opposite of bleed res

Like current carno

[vale brook]

thats carno specifically and its being removed

[viscid mica]

And technically Maia XD

[vale brook]

bleed also effects alot more than just health in this game so i think the current system works fine anyway

[viscid mica]

It do

It touches a lot of general survival things

And can straight up remove your ability to regen stam if it gets low enough

[vale brook]

TRUE

[elfin night]

Legacy dilo humbly forcing an allo to sit and die to bites or bleed out with 4-5 bites

Absolute cinema

[viscid mica]

I mean dilo can do that now it’s just a lot scarier death

[vale brook]

"i have 1 drop of blood in me. i will now sit, and simply wait to stop bleeding."

meanwhile in evrima, if you have the mutation;

"I CANT STAND UP I CANT SEE EVERYTHING IS BLACK AND THERE ARE THINGS WALKING AROUND ME"

"my STAMINA HAS BEEN AT 0 FOR 30 MINUTES"

[viscid mica]

lol

I don’t even take the mutation unless I’m stego

Cuz like you encounter a good omni group you finna need it

[elfin night]

Scarier? That’s a new way to spell lame

(I hate dilo’s kit. It got absolutely butchered)

[cosmic pelican]

pachy too

For its size, pachy actually has comparable bleed resistance to deino, which is insane

[viscid mica]

A wee strong that’s it

[elfin night]

It’s also extremely uninteresting

You can tell how absolutely abysmal dilo is whenever you do a canni fight

Stuff like teno and dibble do take effort in a 1v1 and there’s plenty of skill involved as a canni

But with dilo and its atrocious turn you’re just forced into trading and turning around like school buses

It has absolutely nothing noteworthy other than the venom

Which then it just is haha I get purple stage and spam rmb until you die

[viscid mica]

I completely disagree

[elfin night]

And if rmb doesn’t work, then dilo can cry about it because there’s no way it can kill something it can’t just brute force without venom anyway

[viscid mica]

If it was better balanced it would be great fun

The problem is it does WAY to much damage

[elfin night]

It’s a cool concept that translated into a mindless one trick pony

Zero flexibility

Glorified legacy playable

The problem isn’t the damage, that wouldn’t really address dilo’s core issue of being lame as hell to play as and against

[viscid mica]

I mean if your not willing to give it a chance than nothing can be done

[elfin night]

I have given it a chance

Fighting so many things including other dilos

Canni fights are so unreasonably abysmal

And then hunting anything that isn’t an omni or pachy unless you know clones will work is hell

[viscid mica]

In its current state where you can do like 2.5k damage solo ya it’s op and basic

Just adjust it so you have to be more involved and boom problem solved

[elfin night]

More involved and also more flexibility to actually get involved

[plucky aspen]

idk exactly what the convo is about, but from the limited reading i've done, my 2 cents is, Dilo is a very gimmicky playable that is not fun to play again and is incredibly buggy. it would benefit from the clones not dealing any damage, but instead being a controlled distraction of some sort, or the venom taking on a different form all together

[potent fox]

I think dilo needs to go all in for illusions when it comes to venom. It should be even more confusing but not deal dmg. In return dilo could have a little bit more bleed to make use of its venom more.

[elfin night]

You can BARELY outmaneuver a carno even

[elfin night]

And also being given actual maneuverability tools to focus on hit and run and get to deal actual damage if the clones don’t do all the heavy lifting

Give it at least a dodge bruv

Anything works except for the current trash can we have

[potent fox]

Exactly what I think. Dilo venom should be super super confusing but not deal dmg as it’s not a fun mechanic for a game like this

[plucky aspen]

i think, personalally, the maneuverability isa fine while the clones work the way it does. especially with how fast it is. however, if the clones start dealing significantly less damage, or no damage, that i could see a buff to maneuverability

[viscid mica]

If your getting confused by dilo Ai respectfully your struggling in videos game sin general it is insanely easy to see the difference

[elfin night]

Totally agree

[potent fox]

That was literally my point. Sry maybe overreacted but je that’s what I mean

[plucky aspen]

in the midst of combat it can be difficult at times.

@potent fox@viscid mica lets keep any form of insults out of the conversation please.

[potent fox]

Im trying I just saw them being very uncharitable to others alr

[viscid mica]

Nothing rude about that? I’m just pointing out the Ai movement isn’t advanced enough to be confusing

[elfin night]

To be fair

You may be confused if you’re something like a Maia or stego at dusk

Because you just can’t see anything

But otherwise they’re so clearly fake

[potent fox]

Maybe you were agreeing with me maybe not it was hard to say but je the AI should be better but I think you could also add other elements to make it more confusing than it is rn.

[viscid mica]

I get people wanting illusions especially since all they’ve felt is op dilo that insta applies venom that lasts for ever

But I don’t see Ai having the movement or habits that players do to be confusing any time soon

[potent fox]

Je that’s why the best bet would be adding other effects I think it’s just hard to figure some out that aren’t frustrating too. I liked the idea of obscuring your health + the clones still attack and make your screen more bloody but you don’t actually take dmg

[viscid mica]

Players move in very predictable yet diverse ways that it’s near impossible to not tell a player from Ai

[potent fox]

It’s all part of the illusion as long as the venom is active

But it’s probably always gonna be a frustrating Dino to fight no matter what you change

[viscid mica]

Tbh that’s another reason I just want them to make it harder to t3 and make it last not nearly as long as it does

Good damage still but at a higher cost of activity

[vale brook]

but then its barely venom and dilophosaurus is left to be incredibly weak for its size lol

venom should absolutely do some form of damage

we've already seen what dilo becomes when the clones dont do anything

it becomes fodder

[plucky aspen]

thats because when they didnt have clones they didnt have anything other than bite. My suggestion is making the venom do something else. couple examples below

Decrease bleed resistance venom + increase maneuverability slightly. this would allow them to focus on longer fighters where they bleed a target out and giving them that maneuverability to more reliably hit their target.

Mirror venom: Make it so the target sees 4 dilos that all mirror the players movement. If done correctly, this could cause confusion in the target, forcing them to try to keep track of the player in the darkness, or they may attack nothing.

Skill shot clones. This is not meant to open damage, but imagine if while running in you could summon a clone to do a different action based on where you are looking. for example. run in an attempt to bite, or force the target to swing elsewhere. i think this is the weakest option, but its just food for thought.

[elfin night]

BRUH

I AMBUSHED TWO CERAS AS DILO AT NIGHT

THEY DIED IN 2 BITES EACH

WHAT IS THIS DINOSAUR 😭

[potent fox]

2 bites from just you or 2 bites for venom and then the clones did the rest?

[viscid mica]

Clones

Clones are super op rn

[vagrant plover]

clones shouldn't do any damage. The distraction and the side effects are enough.

[vale brook]

if that were true, dilos wouldn't become useless the moment their clones stop working lol

a rework is needed, sure

but the venom should be deadly lol

ideally;

• each clone charge would require a physical bite on the evenomated prey to recharge (with them charging at about 1 every 2 minutes if there's no longer any envenomated animals)

• actual combat counters to clones, as was originally intended. it should ideally be quick enough to punish players who lack awareness, but enough of a window to reward engaging and fighting the clones

• heavily reduced venom efficiency/damage during the day

[elfin night]

clone spam 300 meters away

so fun, engaging and balanced

2 fg ceras down the drain because muh skillful rmb in a flat area

[elfin night]

dilo would be such unfathomable trash if that happened

worse than pachy or deino

[tropic horizon]

May as well be removing it from the game

That’s like taking fractures away from pachy

[elfin night]

true

[vagrant plover]

He has enough bite power and blood flow to kill prey. He doesn't need damaging poison. The clones and fog are enough distraction to attack and retreat.

Every carnivore has the risk of being attacked when approaching prey.

Why should Dilo be exempt from this?

Now dilos can sit anywhere and cause constant damage to you without any danger to themselves, how is that better?

[elfin night]

20 more bite force than omni, agility barely superior to that of carno and vastly inferior to all other carnivores, neglibible bleed resistance, loud as hell, no fracture resistance, very large, and clones are so clearly fake unless your opponent is practically blind

it's not that dilo should be exempt

it's unplayable if you try to fight anything without venom doing it for you

and it's trash design rn

However, what you suggest is making dilo the most atrocious playable to have ever existed in evrima

[vale brook]

once again, if literally any of this was true then dilo populations wouldnt go extinct the moment their clones stop working

dilo has relatively low damage for its size, its not especially tank, it only really has speed going for it if you strip it of venom working like actual venom

#balance-feedback-discussion message

once again, this

[vagrant plover]

@elfin night They bite almost twice as fast as omnis and are faster runners. Bleeding is good.

His venom can last a good five minutes.

You can sometimes only see silhouettes because of the fog, especially in the dark. This is when he's supposed to hunt in the game, hence the buff.

And he has a completely different playstyle. Omnis are pack melee fighters. Carnos are strikers. And Dilos are supposed to be gerilia fighters. They attack, pull back, and attack again.

Everyone has different hunting strategies.

Yes, Dilo needs better buffs to be able to play like behing quieter

@vale brook The changes look better. But the damage shouldn't be that great.

Trodoon is also a Venom and has worse Venom and a weaker body. I find it unbalanced that Dilo is stronger and has better Venom

[elfin night]

nuh uh

[vale brook]

troodon venom literally triples their damage and lets them do more damage than dilo in 1 single pounce lol

good troodons can quite literally melt everything in game right now

[vagrant plover]

@vale brook Lol, no. I'm a Troodon main and it's almost impossible to hunt well with him.

1. Server problems. The game has a hard time dealing with his positioning and movements. I just died today as a Troo because the game interrupted my jump.

2. Venom. To trigger maximum damage, you have to bring the prey to level 3. This only lasts for a maximum of 30 seconds and then it's downgraded to 0 effects, regardless of the level.

Each level must be triggered individually, so you need good coordination in the group.

You always have to start over in every fight because of the effect cancellation.

3. Groups. It's hard to find enough players, and even fewer good ones. You need very good group coordination, otherwise you'll pounce on each other and die.

4. Pounce counters. Standing face-on prevents the pounce. You can be swatted off an object or bounce off an object and lie on the ground for a while. Trodoon can't change his position, unlike Omni, which makes his of jump predictable. Standing on trees, water, rocks, and cliffs greatly reduces the attack surface and leads to a quick death from swatting.

I could continue, but let's leave it at that for now.

My point is: you can't just look at damage numbers.

[swift beacon]

I'm a pretty big fan of the mirror venom idea, but I feel it falls short when the opponent moves in general

Like, if you imagine for a moment the Phantom Ganon fight from LoZ OoT, it can work well to confuse you because there's a limited area you can run around and fight within, and the illusions are always on the edge of the arena

But if you take that sort of concept and try to apply it to an open world setting where you have phantom pawns responding to a "master's" inputs, it falls flat because you have to define a region where the pawns will reference their "mirror" around

If this is on a specific point of the map, if the opponent leaves the "radius" between you and that point, the illusion is functionally worthless, since you have to deviate from that point to reach them and the clones will mirror their movements away from the center, thus meaning the one approaching will always be the real Dilo

If it's instead on the other player, you now have an incredibly erratic "mirror point" that will take a lot of server resources to define and predict, not to mention finding a way to make the clones move in a way that maintains the mirror without immediately giving away that they're clones

And finally, anything other than a perfect mirror will, inevitably, give away the clones as being clones, once enough people observe the behavior pattern algorithm and dispense the knowledge through the normal vectors

[vale brook]

so you mean venom that causes high damage can also be engaging and challenging for the person applying the venom? like what i suggested?

because troodons still melt animals regardless of all that, it happens fairly often lol

some things like the server latency; sure but thats not a troodon/venom issue lol

and 30 seconds is more than enough for even just 2 troodons to dish out 1k+ damage lol

dilo would a) actually have to engage with its prey outside of initial envenomation, b) have actual counters that ARENT dependent on the server being wonky (fighting and engaging the clones), and c) more heavily force them into relying on night for hunts

"troodon main and impossible to hunt well with him" lol

[steep gazelle]

Just increase the cooldown for clone charges from 8s to 30-40s and make it recover a charge whenever it hits a bite on a prey in the purple stage on the head or body. This will make Dilo forcibly more aggressive and give more advantages to the prey to kill Dilo, as well as not making Dilo any less weak. (Of course, it will also remove the 3 clones that spawn automatically)

[vale brook]

i think 30-40s is too short ngl

[elfin night]

or just make dilo an interesting playable rather than holding on to the absurd concept that is having clones that deal damage and having that justifying the objectively abysmal stat pool

[steep gazelle]

Reducing the duration of venom and fog would also help, as it lasts up to 10min currently

[steep gazelle]

The concept of clones causing damage isn't bad, it's just poorly done

[vale brook]

mmm yah id shorten it to about 5 but i wouldnt make it much shorter than that

i like the idea of dilo being able to use its venom somewhat defensively during the day

rather than focusing on clone damage and killing the threat, id like for them to focus on trying to get the threat blinded and then dip

atleast during the day

[wide steeple]

fix raptors buggy pounces idk how many times ive died like that

[elfin night]

it's really bad

because dilo is useless without it

the game accounts for most of its damage to be done through that

[wide steeple]

after a pounces doesnt matter if u jump off correctly it just makes u stand there for 2 whole seconds taking massive damage or dying

[hasty coyote]

@late torrent bleed is a lot more dynamic than you are making it seem. Ironically, the pachy example you made is wrong, pachy has bleed resistance (I’m not sure on the exact % though) while stego doesn’t. Carno also currently has increased bleed multipliers while walking and standing. Additionally you failed to mention that bleed takes longer to heal with less food, water, stam, and hp. Different attacks also have different bleed ratios, like Herrera leap and beipi slash deal like 3x the damage in bleed over time. Meanwhile carno deals very low bleed for its attacks. Lastly, evrima bleed reduces healing and stam regen to a crawl when below 60% bleed, so it additionally has its own debuffs different from wounded debuffs.

The reason evrima’s bleed has different factors than legacy’s is because the goal of bleed in both is entirely different, and combat as a whole is very different. Legacy bleed was just extra damage over time. Evrima bleed is an alternative win con and a way to apply debuffs. As such evrima bleed needs own balance factors compared to legacy bleed.

[vale brook]

iirc pachy has around 15% bleed res (i think)

i just wanted to give that number lol i havent read anything else

ceratos is 50% (maybe closer to 80?) until wounded
and then deino just has a flat 50%

[late torrent]

The main problem of that alteranative bleed win con is that you rarelly see it , unless you are playing as omni or herera , thats true that I didnt mention that bleed takes longer to heal with less food, water, stam, and hp, my mistake , about dfferent attacks having different bleed ratios , as I said bleed is based on your dmg , its not a set number that it was in legacy thats why its just faster to kill your oponent with bites then bleed if we are not talking about omni and herera. And yeah I forgot about pachy bleed res , my bad .

[steep gazelle]

I don't think it's bad. Unlike Troodon, Dilo doesn't have the agility to dodge and attack right away, So he needs it. But clones are extremely poorly made current

[elfin night]

give dilo a dodge

don't thank me

[steep gazelle]

Xd

[elfin night]

no sriously

it could be good with that to make up for terrible agility but to not crutch on it too hard

[vale brook]

i think theres ways to make dilo interesting to play without taking away clone damage

i really like the idea of dilo occupying 2 completely different niches depending on the time of day

i may have to write something up for that relatively soon, lots of ideas bouncing in my head

[elfin night]

I was thinking about it this morning

Something like a reverse to dryo dodge, moving you backwards in the direction you were pointing at, so it allows dilo to quickly disengage for a small stamina cost, giving it stamina management and also as a restriciton to not abuse it

and thus making hit and run with big game better

also this assumes that clones aren't the way they are

[hasty coyote]

Yeah I assumed it was around 15-25%

[crimson crater]

pachy has the best bleed resistance

[hasty coyote]

I don’t think bleed being an uncommon win con is a bad thing, especially since most of our current playables don’t really use bleed. Troo and dilo have venom, carno intentionally has low bleed, and cera does higher damage since it needs good damage to kill stuff like carnos before they kill it. And most herbivores that deal bleed will deal more damage because bleed is too weak defensively and very useful offensively. However, many dinos that deal solid bleed can and will deal enough bleed to a target to force it to give up running or chasing because they dropped below 60%. I have seen many ceras and tenos bleed out a carno after a few early hits, and they both deal major bleed to an over aggro Maia (I can say from experience as Maia, those 2 are a threat with bleed alone).

A lot of future dinos will likely use bleed as a win con and bleeding out will become a lot more common, it’s just not a main factor in our current roster.

[hasty coyote]

That goes to ht cera having 99% bleed res lmao

[late torrent]

Well then , lets as always wait and see , but whom will use bleed as a win con? Giga? If bleed system stays as it is giga will kill faster with raw dmg . Allo may change it but I generally dont like the idea of allo being bigger omni its pounce right now looks exactlly like omnis and still 2 allos probablly will be abel to pin and kill anything way before prey will bleed out if pin stays the way its. .

[stone falcon]

Heightened Grehlin

Has anyone really played around with this mutation much?

I'm dabbling in it and currently working on a Carno build that synergizes Hematophagy & Gastronomic Regeneration with it. It's the only way I can think of that would make Heightened Grehlin useful.

[golden coral]

What if the clones were operating within the fog, rather than as stand alone entities. As in, they'll be more like "shadows" in the fog, always mirroring/off your position. If you're out of the fog, they don't show up. If you're within it, that is to say close enough to the target, they automatically show up. And since the fog follows the target, and remains around it (since you can't outrun it or otherwise get out of it), you'd have the reference point you need, if that would work. This also would maybe tie more into them not being used for damage, as much as for distraction for damage. Main issue I can see, if this would work at all anyway, is that removing clone damage or being unable to send them from afar removes the main point of dilo having them in the first place.

[swift beacon]

The fog moves iirc because it's a particle effect that spawns around the player while envenomated, and running into the fog doesn't dissipate existing fog particles

[hasty coyote]

they could give giga a similar bleed ratio on its bite to beipi's claws, where it deals relatively low damage but INSANE bleed. Allo getting a variation on pounce is def questionable, but seems to be the way they are taking it, so it should have solid bleed. Even if thats not what they do, they can still give allo solid bleed ratios so that it has a better time bleeding out larger targets in a pack or using bleed to track smaller targets and force them to stop running.
Other than those 2 and the few already in game, heres some of the dinos I think could use bleed effectively: theri, kentro, bary, austro, mono, meg, straco (if it still exists), and carchar (if it still exists). Not all of them would kill with bleed every time, but they should all deal solid bleed damage and some would kill with bleed most the time. And Imo, thats fine, it makes those dinos who do consistently kill with bleed more unique. If everything killed with bleed, then theres not much of a point in playing the "bleeder" dinos.

[golden coral]

Hm, would it work to then tie the clones to that effect, or add them as an effect as well, but an effect bound to the presence of the actual dilo?

[swift beacon]

The main benefit imo of the clones mimicking your movement exactly is to make it more difficult to tell which Dilo is real when you see them

[late torrent]

After all its still going down to waiting till devs will either improve the current system or will add new dinos , which as it stays for now will take forever

[swift beacon]

Tying them behind the fog seems counterproductive to that end

[golden coral]

How so, they'd, if possible, show up when the dilo is close enough to the target. At which point the mirrors would start being visible in the fog, just like how you'd see the real dilo. Just that since they're going to show up, you'll be seeing shadows on all sides, getting closer or moving away as the real dilo does? You're not seeing outside the fog anyway?

[hasty coyote]

Imo, theres no point in heightened grehlin. If your goal is to heal more from gastro, you're gonna get like 4x more value out of the flat 15% hp regen mutation. If you need more water, water from rain is also 10x better generally, even the flat water drain reduction is better. With grehlin, you're just taking a perk that does 2 things poorly rather than just excelling at one.

Some mutations in game have such a low value that they're pretty bad or improve a near useless stat, grehlin improves a bad stat with a low value.

[swift beacon]

I mean iirc the fog radius really isn't small enough to make good use of that, on the Dilo's end

[golden coral]

Hmm, that might be true yes. I guess some modifications to the fog would be neccesary too then. Was just thinking it might help with the whole target moving away from the clones issue.

[stone falcon]

It's a shame. Looking to try different things. Hopefully the Devs could tweak them to make it more viable.

[sand ginkgo]

Can we make Troodons pounce more accurate? I get to adult then the pounce mechanic doesn’t work properly and now I’m at there feet and get 1 shot

[vagrant plover]

This is more of a game issue. The game has difficulty determining Troodon's exact position with its rapid movements.
I've also often experienced the game aborting my jumps or teleporting into other dinos' attacks even though I should be keeping a safe distance.
It always ends in death. Troodon can't afford any mistakes, but the game makes them.

[sand ginkgo]

I just came over from PoT and troodon is my first Dino lol I see he’s last place on tier list but I’m not gonna give up on this guy. A few more tweaks can make him viable even for solo. His venom needs a rework, too much work to getting his kit to work properly while he’s extremely vulnerable and fragile

[vagrant plover]

I agree with you. But the developers haven't given Troodon a good buff in a long time, which was nothing more than a drop in the ocean.

The Stam and Diet buffs came with a huge speed nerf in Hordetest.

[sand ginkgo]

What a shame, Troodon has so much potential without even having to get to a state where it would need a nerf, I mean it’s a one-shot for crying out loud lol

[vagrant plover]

He is supposed to hunt in large groups, but his venom delivery is too complicated for large group coordination.

[sand ginkgo]

True

[vagrant plover]

In addition, large groups are more dangerous for Troodon itself, as one is often pounct by group members

The group cannot attack prey together, but must coordinate one after the other.

[vagrant plover]

Tiny dinos generally don't get a good treatment from the game. They should have much better advantages for their weaknesses. Then people would play them consistently.

[viscid mica]

@hasty coyote I mean if multiple FG are pounced on something abit of drain stam would make sense

[hasty coyote]

Someone didn’t read the last part

[viscid mica]

Your right I didn’t

Carry on good sir

[hasty coyote]

Lmao all good

I’ll add a MUCH at the start so that the point is more clear

[viscid mica]

[coarse blaze]

What is Cera/Carnos hunger drain time? Anyone know the number?

[hasty coyote]

iirc, cera is 45, carno is an hour like most things. I may be off though, havent exactly timed it.

[coarse blaze]

Thank you, I could have sworn that Cera's timer was shorter than Carno's but I might be wrong

[dusky surge]

#balance-feedback message

Carno can run from every single apex that's being added, and obliterate their juvenile states. I fail to see what changes it could need that it hasn't already been given in HT. And no, it doesn't need to be hunting FG maias, it's still a small-game hunter and it does that job well

Elder raptor is DISGUSTINGLY overpowered idk why we're looking at it in a positive light. Completely invalidates pachies, dilos and so on simply by existing.

Troodon has gotten very decent changes in the HT already and I think it's in a decent spot now with unmatched endurance for a hunter and a very diverse and comfortable diet that it can easily fulfil.

[viscid mica]

Once elder is actually out I’m willing to bet you’ll only be prime elder for a short amount of time and it’ll be harder to achieve

[dusky surge]

i don't really care how long it lasts, it's still disgustingly broken and objectively unfun

[viscid mica]

If it’s hard to achieve and you only get it for a few hours I think that’s fine

I can’t imagine how you’ll feel about H strains when they inevitably become something you can achieve

[dusky surge]

i don't

it just shifts goalposts of "AFK till adult then PvP" to "AFK till elder than PvP"

[dusky surge]

They can be balanced better unironically

[viscid mica]

You won’t get prime elder

Afking won’t satisfy the requirements

Getting prime elder will require active participation in game play loop

[dusky surge]

Doesn't really matter to me. If I lose my adult pachy to something I have no hope of fleeing, fighting or otherwise, it's not fair

[viscid mica]

¯_(ツ)_/¯

[dusky surge]

I don't care how much hard work they put in if all it equates to is my hard work going to waste, and I can't do anything about it

Objectively bad game design

[viscid mica]

I completely disagree

Fully growing, achieving a set of requirements well not dying only to MAYBE get prime elder and then only have it for a short amount of time

[dusky surge]

IMHO, all I see this style of elder balance doing is simply creating a shift in ideologies which discourages player interaction further and encourages "waiting for the PvP age" more

because there will be matchups you just lose, gg, sorry you spend those hours for nothing

even as a full adult, who should be by all means perfectly capable of defending itself

if an adult is incapable of surviving all its threats, it is inherently unviable in an ecosystem and you've simply changed a goalpost from "get to adult" to "get to elder"

[viscid mica]

If they do what they’ve said they plan to do you won’t get the choice to “wait” till pvp age as you won’t achieve peak power by not actively playing

[dusky surge]

so you're encouraged to invest more hours, and punished for doing so more because you will always lose to an elder, no matter what

[viscid mica]

Pachy needs changes on a whole other note

You’ll always lose to H strains no matter what

If elder is sufficiently difficult to obtain I think it’s fine

[dusky surge]

And you can balance around that far better by the metric of them being H Strains and being inherently different from everything else

They are not a sheer upgrade, they come with their own set of unique downsides

[viscid mica]

They starve easy

[dusky surge]

You can do more than that

[viscid mica]

So they are on a time limit

[dusky surge]

And frankly, they should do more than just hunger

[viscid mica]

You could do more but they never said they will all we know is they are hungy hungy boys

[dusky surge]

I feel they should have a constant scent akin to mixpack scent, and thumping, thunderous footsteps

[viscid mica]

Like every apex should

Not the scent the footsteps

[dusky surge]

The footsteps would be louder than an apex on a H-Strain

[viscid mica]

They could add a ? Sent

[dusky surge]

Anyway, I don't believe moving goalposts is what elders should represent

[viscid mica]

Why not

[dusky surge]

They should be the peak of the ANIMAL, building into what makes them unique, not just stats

[viscid mica]

They are a goal post no matter what you colour them

[dusky surge]

They can be a goal post, not a goal shift

[viscid mica]

But if they are sufficiently hard it doesn’t matter does it?

Like if someone achieves H variant omni (if there is one) it will do the same as elder just better in every way but s that suddenly wrong?

[dusky surge]

Unfair is unfair, regardless of how rare

Being struck by lightning in BoB is not common, but it is feels unfair

Being blasted down by a dude with a sniper rifle and losing your hours is uncommon and requires a rare weapon and ammo, but it feels unfair

Both parties should be allowed to have fun

[dusky surge]

I don't believe it should do better in every way, I feel that's an inappropriate approach

It lacks creativity too

[viscid mica]

That’s the entire point of H strains

[dusky surge]

No it isn't

[viscid mica]

To be BETTER

Living weapons with 1 goal

[dusky surge]

There's three strains because each strain represents something unique

Also strains are not weapons

[viscid mica]

But they are that’s the lore intended

[dusky surge]

It is not

Apollo Engineering is explicitly not focused on military

Ask any lore man around if the strains are weapons. They'll dogpile you fast lol

[dusky surge]

Ah, the AI said so

[viscid mica]

Read lower

[dusky surge]

It must be true

Ah, the unofficial wiki that is frequently wrong said so

It must be true

[viscid mica]

@green heart what was the strains purpose

[dusky surge]

he'll probably tell you the same i'm telling you but the lore is they are somewhat medicinal

because AE is a pharmaceutical company

[viscid mica]

Anyways so long as elders are sufficiently hard to get and last not long I don’t mind them being a decent bit stronger than their originals

[dusky surge]

i care if it just invalidates certain other animals

because then that adds a colossal balance discrepancy

because elders aren't balanced around the other creatures like adults are

so it adds an even greater objective meta

whoever has the strongest elder is the meta

[green heart]

https://tenor.com/view/genie-bzzz-wrong-aladdin-robin-williams-gif-11376251

AE used to be involved in food/agriculture

[dusky surge]

i know that

lol

[green heart]

To out knowledge, strains are medical adjacent at least though

[torn egret]

Thought it was a research company that dealt in biological research, that’s why they work on recreation/hand-crafting genetics for plants animals etc.
that’s at least the tip of the story, there’s plenty more to speculate as to why they want to be able to make dna vs clone it, and why dinosaurs and the human experiments.

[green heart]

This is pretty much most of what we know https://docs.google.com/document/d/1J3FnAzKdtmlIYzTfgSlevTgGLcn8h-Zaxlqn3WEicVw/edit

[torn egret]

That’s where I got my general thesis. Most pharmaceutical companies are subsidiaries (or have) that specialize in research. That’s where the Isle comes into play. (The Apollo plants are the genetically modified plants which makes me curious about the long term effects down the road. To the herbs and creatures that eat them)
But yeah, great document just my take on it. I’m usually wrong anyways lol

[steep gazelle]

The problem is not in the omni but in the pin mechanic
and I don't think there is anyone who agrees that Pachy should just die with a simple click of something 15km faster, at least I hope so xd

The pin needs an rework, and people will pay more attention to this when elder and allo arrive

[viscid mica]

If allo has the same math as omni

[onyx lichen]

@vagrant plover Troodon doesn't need to change positions since it isn't suppose to stay latched for too long, its suppose to get on and off quickly

[vagrant plover]

@onyx lichen He needs it to control the jump of

Not to stay on

[onyx lichen]

That's not really a big enough reason for it to be able to switch spots

Omni actually needs it since it will give the target enough time to get to a better position before it should dismount and it can reposition itself to make it easier for packmates to latch on, it just sounds too situational on Troodon

[vagrant plover]

Not to die, perhaps?

You have no control over where you land, but rather the prey you hang on to.

It spins and can throw you off cliffs or walls, where you'll be killed because you can't run away. Or his comrades will stand to the side and wait for you to jump.

He also runs the risk of being pouned by other Troodon if he's attached to prey. Changing his position would give him control.

And unlike Omni, he can't afford to take a single hit from anything. Not even Juvis.

[onyx lichen]

You do have control where you land, you have a radius of where you are looking to dismount

[steep gazelle]

I'll be very surprised if that not happens. I highly doubt the devs won't reuse the full pounce mechanic in Allo.

[vagrant plover]

@onyx lichen That's far too small.

And as I said, the prey has far more control.

Most dinosaurs can easily perform 180-degree turns during Troodon punch time.

[onyx lichen]

You aren't suppose to stay latched for too long, you're suppose to dismount as soon as possible so it doesn't make sense why you should reposition yourself

[steep gazelle]

#balance-feedback message @vagrant plover I agree that Troodon should have this, especially because of how fragile Troodon is.

[vagrant plover]

@onyx lichen For the third time, it's about being able to control his jump of.

Troodon has no advantage in staying on prey for a long time.

The minimum time is enough to act against Troodon with his position.

Why do you want Troodon, which is killed in one hit by almost all dinosaurs, to be less mobile than Omni?

[onyx lichen]

Troodon is not as fast as Omni but is more agile and more evasive, needing to reposition yourself as Troodon sounds too situational

[vagrant plover]

@steep gazelle Thanks

@onyx lichen He loses his agility and evasiveness when he's attached to his prey.

You're forced to stay in the same spot.

Why should he be less mobile on his pray if Omni can climb all sides of his pray and is 9 times heavier then troodon

[onyx lichen]

Because Omni is meant to stay latched so it is much more likely to be in a bad position

[vagrant plover]

@onyx lichen And Troodon is designed to be agile, which he lacks in this aspect.

Omni pounc longer, but Troodon pounc more. And he also has time constraints due to his much too short venom effect in which he has to pounc.

He has to take advantage of every opportunity.

[viscid mica]

Would be lazy as all hell if they did plus super unhealthy as allo is significantly larger

[steep gazelle]

I don't doubt the devs' ability to do bad and poorly done things, taking a look at hordtest gives you an idea of what they are capable of doing

[viscid mica]

¯_(ツ)_/¯

Well see

I also don’t think allo lunge will work like omni

I don’t think allo will be able to just yeet it out when ever hopefully it has a charge

[steep gazelle]

The problem is with the Pin

It is a flawed and completely unbalanced mechanic

[viscid mica]

So long as the pin limit is reduced and allo is slow we’ll be fine

[viscid mica]

Disagree

It’s fine for omni at its size

[steep gazelle]

Yes, for the Omni there really isn't that much of a problem, although there are problems like the Galli being pinned

And with the arrival of the Elders it will be even more flawed in the Omni running at 52-55km and weighing 650kg

[viscid mica]

Galli has no excuse to be caught by omnis tbh

[viscid mica]

Now that I can see the issue with especially how high elders damage can be (I didn’t know it got that significant of a speed up)

[steep gazelle]

Oh, sure. Just don't exist in the same location as an omni

[viscid mica]

Your 5 ish km faster

Your trot is almost as fast as omni sprint

Just pay attention

I’ve never been caught my omnis as galli and never had to avoid entire areas because of them

[steep gazelle]

Galli should have a fair fight with Omni, but obviously more in Omni's favor. But currently there is no interaction between the two

[viscid mica]

Based on gallis damage if omni can’t pin omni loses 90% of the time

[steep gazelle]

Omni can do that with a Herrera? Ok. But to do it with something that weighs so little less than it? It's a joke...

[steep gazelle]

That's why there should be a way to counterattack when being pinned, especially Galli

[viscid mica]

Like what

[steep gazelle]

Pounce has a huge hitbox and pins even with the slightest touch to the tail

[steep gazelle]

Kicks

[viscid mica]

Yes that should be fixed

[viscid mica]

Sooo do a minor bit of damage?

Like how omnis do to eachother

[steep gazelle]

No, something that does good damage

Precisely to make Omni rethink before pinning Galli. Obviously this would not make Galli immune to Omni, a while using the Pin and a few bites would kill Galli without any problems.

[viscid mica]

Soooo omni v omni

[steep gazelle]

Something that needs Stam, like running kicks

[viscid mica]

They could just do omni v omni damage change the animation?

What if they get on the back do they still get damage?

[steep gazelle]

Yes, something like that but not exactly the same

Galli will be able to retaliate with kicks, but they cost 5% stam

Of course with good damage too

[viscid mica]

If it’s just for stuff galli sized (Austro and galli) I can see a minor retaliation making sense

Like they die but do 70% ish damage in return

[steep gazelle]

No, anything you do with Omni requires more than just 1 click and wait, there really is an interaction between the 2