balance-feedback-discussion

[elfin night]

Brother, ptera will still be a good flier. It’s the only one in the game and at worst it will have a competitor that cannot chase it in the jungle

[dusky surge]

what... else do you think flight is for???

you fly to move around that's objectively what it exists for

i'll be real, i'm probably actually gonna play a lot more ptera after the rework, since everything that's been said sounds far more appealing than what we have

[near basin]

would you say when you peck something, you're traveling?
would you say when you fly around SP and look at sht, you're traveling? homie you're just hanging around

flying is not solely about going from one location to another, sometimes you want to stay in one location
if your flight is unbearable when doing that, 50% of ptera will be boring

[near basin]

groundwork and slipstreams is cool yes it's appealing
but they're nerfing its base flight

[dusky surge]

less of a pushover, less of a one-trick pony, more environmental interaction, more dynamic forms of traversal

[dusky surge]

i think that's a fine tradeoff

perfectly fair given what it's getting

[near basin]

there should be no tradeoff

Tell me why there should be a tradeoff

[dusky surge]

there should because a suvival game should have you at least attempt to survive rather than just not engage with the game 99% of the time

and that's what the rework sets out to achieve

[elfin night]

Because balancing

[near basin]

because ptera would be too immortal?

[elfin night]

If you let ptera be untouchable forever in the air, while also giving it better attacks and more combat prowess, then it’s beipi but better

[near basin]

it's not untouchable though. pteras die left and right
currently in dondi's eyes it's "untouchable" but they still die

[dusky surge]

ptera now gets superior flight for properly engaging with systems like slipstreams, updrafts and such, can competently traverse the ground if it doesn't feel like flying, can fish from the ground too if it so desires, has some level of combat competency, so on

it actually can engage, rather than just being a spectator mode, and the only "nerf" is forcing it to play the game more

[near basin]

they still gotta drink etc

[dusky surge]

oh no, my animal is more of an animal

[near basin]

tell me how it would harm the ecosystem if it kept its base power in flight?

with the new buffs

[glossy elbow]

its the fact that its not interacting enough with the environment not that its harming it

[elfin night]

Because they f around and find out when pecking someone or when they’re clueless drinking

[dusky surge]

it wouldn't, but it'd just kinda... just be boring

like... riskless, effortless survival is meh

[near basin]

do you think that's what ptera currently is?

[elfin night]

I don’t want ptera as it is now, just skimming fish and sitting on a rock because even a fresh spawn can give you some trouble

[dusky surge]

i mean, atm it's effortless survival and like absolutely nothing interesting besides "it can fly"

[elfin night]

It is basically riskless and has no interaction with others

[dusky surge]

i actually want it to land more because that gives a lot of cool interactions with stuff like herrera or hypsi, who will also reach said high places

[near basin]

if a ptera is going to manage on the ground, it will need a health and damage buff
pteras are so fragile

if it doesn't get that, then it makes even less sense

juvie cera bites you one time and you're down to orange or red

[elfin night]

Something many people forget too: if you are faster and more stamina efficient on land than now, that means you can quickly go uphill or go certain moves more subtly than flying and could be applied to choosing better take off spots that will benefit flight indirectly

You wouldn’t have to take off and fly up a hill, then rest, and take off

You can just walk that way

[near basin]

i think people are going to be disappointed w its flight in the end

you'll see peeps be excited about the new changes but then realize they can't fly with freedom anymore, defeating the whole purpose of ptera

[vale brook]

i dont see how an instant take off (which is one helluva an ability btw) having a relatively large stam cost matters

[near basin]

this is not about that, that's a small detail

but that also is a bad thing

[elfin night]

They can go back to playing omni if they don’t like that you cannot fly for an hour

[vale brook]

you havent explained why its bad though lol

[near basin]

takeoff taking damn near 10% of stam seems like they're using anything as an excuse to make flying less powerful

[vale brook]

you say that as if flight is not becoming objectively more powerful with thermals

like you can not say that pteranodon is not getting a net buff to flying because it objectively is lol

being able to travel faster than sprint flying for quite literally no stamina is insane

[near basin]

except that you can't. Saying "ptera flies for an hour" is propaganda in the way you're saying it

Unless you space up until your stam is gone and glide, or take off from a mountain, you ain't flying for an hour

You won't see players doing that though because you actually want to do different things in flight instead of aimlessly gliding high up in the air with 0 stam

[near basin]

base flight should be as powerful as it is now or more

[vale brook]

at first the problem was how long pteranodon could stay in their air, then we discovered it can fly for an hour

then it was gaining altitude that was the supposed issue, but thats being fixed to where you can just go up and up with no stamina cost

and now the issue is, despite being able to manuvere the sky with pretty much no stamina cost, that its take off cost is... too much?

[elfin night]

More like you cannot take off multiple times in a short time, which won’t be needed anyway if you don’t need flight for EVERY maneuver

[vale brook]

yeah, no

[dusky surge]

Alright, so here's how I see it

Ptera gameplay before:
60% flight
10% eating and catching food
30% resting

Ptera gameplay after rework:
20% free flight
10% slipstream guided flight
25% ground gameplay
15% eating and catching food (because you can actually hunt better)
30% resting

"Oh no but we lost some percent on flight" yea, but the animal has MORE TO DO. It is INHERENTLY more engaging and versatile, and players can recontextualise how they decide to play that animal, rather than doing it one way because all ptera can do is that.

If people are leaving ptera for being more flexible, I genuinely don't understand that

[near basin]

absolutely crazy

[vale brook]

leaving pteranodon because its getting an objective buff is crazy, yeah

[dusky surge]

i agree, it's absolutely crazy to stop playing an animal after it's made more engaging

[near basin]

nerfing its base flight will be its downfall (compared to its current playerbase) mark my words

[dusky surge]

i play dinos in this game because they have several avenues of gameplay expression. You can choose how to express yourself through gameplay

Ptera does one thing. Fly. It literally cannot do anything else. I can load into replay and be a better ptera because the replay camera can no-clip and fly forever. There is nothing to ptera, and I want it to be an animal, not a camera

[near basin]

a while after the rework i mean

[glossy elbow]

i don't really see an issue with being able to fly just a little less if the changes coming to ptera make it a more engaging playable

[dusky surge]

^

you're looking at ptera as a one-trick pony, which i guess i can't blame you for because that's what it is

[vale brook]

thats the thing

you're basically getting your hand held in flight now via the thermals

[dusky surge]

ptera isn't even animal, it's just the flight feature lmao

genuinely, ptera is more a feature showcase than an actual creature

[elfin night]

We will point and laugh at you

Ptera is only good at flying in the live branch and look how popular it s

[vale brook]

pteranodon is going from tech demo to full game and somehow people are still upset at it

[dusky surge]

ptera having to adjust its flightcourse around slipstreams and thermals, being able to hunt small creatures on the ground (or in the trees), being able to spend some decent time on the ground navigating and so on all sound like things that make it actually have a gameplay loop

like i cannot name ANYTHING special about ptera besides a cling (which hypsi is ALSO getting but better) and skim (which like... it has one application. that's it)

all it is is the flight feature

[vale brook]

we should let pteranodon skim the ground and break its neck

shovel niche

[dusky surge]

ptera now is how i see, say, raptor in legacy

it had one feature, and it's getting a rework to actually be something more

and people are complaining about it because the one gimmick it had don't work so good anymore lol

[keen plover]

Ptera ground gameplay sounds OK on paper. Depends on what changes for it.

I hope it has a nuke attack on the ground lol

[dusky surge]

that's fair but treating it as the death of ptera is bizarre

it's not like ptera was particularly thriving atm, why not change it?

[keen plover]

Oh I agree. The last time Ptera was fun in its current form was when it could turn well while flying lol. Which was pretty bs. I'm all for changes. Depends on what is done though

[dusky surge]

Yea. I’m liking what we got so far. Alongside the changes to hypsi, I really like how our arboreal or more “vertically inclined” animals are being given actual reasons to be played

[tropic falcon]

@near basin double…jump? Never heard of that unless you’re not launching straight up into the sky

[dusky surge]

hes talking about the ptera rework that hasn't come out yet lmao

[crimson crater]

my guy has early access to it

[keen plover]

I mean tbf there is some vids on it and it has been playable a few times. Not intended of course

[crystal stream]

I love fighting teno and Mia as carno its a lot of fun once you get the hang of it only problem is seeing with carno that make fights like these almost impossible one fix would be to increase the size a very small amount more towards Cere size not 1800 and fixing the long ahh stun and knock animation there so long and make Carno so vulnerable esp when it takes a hit and run playstyle

As for small game it’s not rlly my cup of tea but I think it’s fine

[dusky surge]

#balance-feedback message

Stego's tail costs 10-15% stam to swing

Cera's bite costs nothing to activate

They ain't the same

[unreal crystal]

Ofc there would be some reasonable changes dev can implement like decrease power swing costs ~5%, make it so tail goes up a little faster than it does now, stego should be immune to dib/smaller trike stuns while tail up etcetc.
However you should not be able to burrow your head in a rock/tree or water camp with the tail up indefinitely.

[crystal stream]

I wish galli can fight back against Omni pounce it’s so stupid how it can’t

[swift beacon]

I mean the easy solution to me is to not try and fight the animal that 1-taps you and moves slower than a car in a school zone

[dusky surge]

this is beyond the scope of the average isle player

[swift beacon]

Or alternatively, grow something that doesn't get 1-tapped and aim for the head

At the point where it's shoving its head in a hard-to-reach location, you likely will need to risk damage to get in, but there's plenty of ways around this, especially if you have a friend or 2

See: Dibble herds absolutely bullying Stegos

[dusky surge]

i love how dibble is so good against stego but trike players somehow keep losing to it

[swift beacon]

To be fair a lot of it is the speed gap

And don't get me wrong, it only takes one good hit to put a Dibble 6 feet under

(Knockdown plus a swing or 2 more)

[dusky surge]

thats true (honestly i think trike needs more damage because it has zero control over any engagement) but still

it struggles WAY too hard to deal with ceras atm ngl

poor turn, poor speed, no flank defence, pretty bad alt, uh oh

[swift beacon]

I feel that's generally just a byproduct of Ceratos having a lot of overtuned tools

And having just enough speed and agility to really put work into anything they want to

[dusky surge]

kinda true but i do really feel trike is rather poor atm

or perhaps its more like its the utter opposite of stego. Stego has no issue defending its flanks from little creatures and turning them to mince, yet struggles with apexes

trike can throw hands with an apex like crazy but struggles with swarms of lil guys

[swift beacon]

This isn't necessarily a bad thing

[dusky surge]

im not phrasing it as such, just thinking about it in a different context

[swift beacon]

Trike, with sparring, can also try and keep its front at whatever is most threatening, and in a herd can form the "traditional" defensive ring

[dusky surge]

i do worry about trike though. idk if its stats will really do that great in the upcoming roster

hell, i worry about it vs allo atm, it just doesn't have any good burst damage tools tbh

[swift beacon]

Though given plant food yield it might be difficult to sustain a proper-size force for a ring

[dusky surge]

yea, that's the thing

[swift beacon]

I mean, there's more to survival than just killing your opponent

If you make them go away bc it's too much hurt for your yield then in technicality that's a win

[dusky surge]

you're right about that, i completely agree, but it feels like trike doesn't have many tools to frighten off an opponent

a single good whack from stego does so much damage and bleed you feel inclined to gtfo

but trike can just outlast in the tank game for sure

9500 healthpool at LEAST

if you hit other spots besides the body, it's more

[swift beacon]

Neck might be a weakpoint?

[dusky surge]

actually yea, i think so

[swift beacon]

Hard to say, given that you're likely going to bite frill or head first

[dusky surge]

yea for sure

i doubt going for the neck is a great idea regardless lol

imho, trike either needs a burst tool or CC on alt-bite, and I think it'd be far more viable

[swift beacon]

In fairness it has a burst tool in the form of thrash

Main issue being that it's built as a combo tool, reliant on using your held or running headbutt to execute

[dusky surge]

which is my issue

i feel the knockdown is too hard to consistently get off

[swift beacon]

Perhaps against multiple opponents

When you can afford to focus on one target, I imagine it's quite the tough cookie to crack

[unreal crystal]

I understand you probably enjoy the current state of stego but it's different for me. You see, when nobody wants to touch me with a 10ft pole once I hit subadult I get bored

[dusky surge]

rex is coming next update, same is trike

then allo after that

im pretty sure you'll be fine

[viscid mica]

Apex’s will be here shortly

[unreal crystal]

I don't think rex will do anything to stego. Rex is not omni so I think he would probably die as fast a deinosuchus.

[swift beacon]

Actually quite the opposite. Can't stand playing as Big Stompies™️, I'm more of a Lil Git™️ enjoyer

[dusky surge]

what?

how lol

[dusky surge]

lil guy enjoyer, based as hell

[swift beacon]

For starters Rex is larger than Deino and has been confirmed to have CC and Pin attacks

[viscid mica]

Now I’m all for stego having advantage but Rex is FAR MORE THREATENING that a croc that is 40% head hitbox

[swift beacon]

High likelihood of being faster than Steg as well

[dusky surge]

also rex moves faster, has more health, has more stamina, has more damage, has a crush move that actually works on stego, has a murdersprint

im certain it'll be better than deino in the matchup lol

[viscid mica]

Oh not high it’s garanteed

[viscid mica]

WELLL more damage is debatable

[dusky surge]

ehhh

no its not guaranteed, just EXCEPTIONALLY likely

[unreal crystal]

Will rex pin a fg stego? If not it's as good as deinosuchus grab ability

[dusky surge]

it better not LMAO

[swift beacon]

It doesn't need to pin to be effective

[viscid mica]

Rex sprint is not gonna be under 30

[dusky surge]

in the files it is

[viscid mica]

god I hope not

[dusky surge]

lmao

[swift beacon]

See:
Dibble herd stunning a Stego to death
Trike knockdown chaining a Stego to death

[unreal crystal]

Ofc not it wouldn't be balanced.... that's why stego burst damage must be tuned down and keeping tail up should cost stam (ofc give stego oher buffs etcetc to compensate for this change)

[viscid mica]

Ain’t no one a mod deleted that

[swift beacon]

Anyhow, by all known accounts at the current moment, Stego's only hope would be to see Rex from far off enough and break line of sight

[viscid mica]

Common man

[viscid mica]

HELL NO

stego tail up costing stam would delete its ability to survive apex’s

[swift beacon]

Though if the Rex is an idiot being able to melt it with the power swing could be enough deterrent

[viscid mica]

Ya that would be the preferred design where you have to ambush or group up on a stego to win

[dusky surge]

ideally, yea

[viscid mica]

We shall seeeee

[swift beacon]

I just don't see it happening without Stego catching a substantial buff to its healthpool, mass, and variety of attacks

[dusky surge]

we'll see very shortly with the rex HT

[unreal crystal]

You say this now but let's wait and see what happens. So far the herbivores supposed Apex trike is not eeally doing that great against stego but you are convinced with rex will be different

[dusky surge]

they nerfed trike to help stego survive so i'm quite hopeful ngl

[viscid mica]

Depends on how Rex is designed as of right now I think it could be fine so long as crush doesn’t do much of anything to stego

[swift beacon]

A Trike that knows what it's doing can pretty easily shut down a Stego

[viscid mica]

Any trike with half a brain cell are wiping stegos with ease

I don’t expect much from apex players ever so that’s asking for a lot tbh

[swift beacon]

Herds of Stegos are more dangerous but also run the risk of gutting themselves with friendly fire

[viscid mica]

^

Plus stego groups are very rare

[golden coral]

And I imagine a herd of trikes would do better than a herd of stegos, but maybe not

[swift beacon]

Herds of Trikes are a lot less prone to friendly fire yes

[viscid mica]

Oh ya trikes in groups are invincible

Basically no reason to freindly fire

[swift beacon]

They're not truly invincible but they're substantially harder to crack

Send enough at them and they will fall eventually

[viscid mica]

I mean let’s be real here name 1 thing that doesn’t break the rules that could break a trike group

[swift beacon]

Gravity

[viscid mica]

Uhhhh ya know what apex players fair game

[swift beacon]

Bait and isolate

[unreal crystal]

What about deinosuchus ? Should deinosuchus a 8T beast die in less than 5 seconds to a 6T stego or you still think the burst damage is completely reasonable?

[viscid mica]

Aight ASSUMING THEY HAVE HALF A BRAIN CELL

[swift beacon]

I hate crocodiles so I think it's fair

[viscid mica]

Yes

[golden coral]

Yes, because deino isn't designed to hunt apexes

[viscid mica]

Deino is a ambush predator not a brawler

[golden coral]

Deino is not rex, rex and trike are far more powerful

[unreal crystal]

😂😂

[viscid mica]

It’s specializes in Ctrlaltdeleteing anything 6t(if swimming) or 4T and below

[dusky surge]

i mean... yea its reasonable. you're in the path of the thagomizer, you get thagomized

[viscid mica]

Plus deino is like 40% head hitbox

[swift beacon]

Frankly I think Deino's grab threshold should be reduced to 2 tonnes, or 4 tonnes while swimming

[golden coral]

And stego has to deal with rex, giga, possibly larger things, depending on how fast shant and spino gets (that should be interesting to see how those end up), whereas deino only worries mostly about spino, that it can escape from, and maybe cheirus.

[viscid mica]

Ah yes let’s make deino completely unplayable

[unreal crystal]

Rex is also not omni so good luck biting the head and getting around stego lol

[stark knoll]

What would be more effective, a 9+ ton predator designed to tussle with dangerous prey its own size or larger (trikes) or an 8 ton punch-down ambusher who isn't built to brawl at all

[viscid mica]

Shant will prolly be slower but spino on the other hand

[golden coral]

Ambush it from the front?

[swift beacon]

It would be healthier for the game yes

[viscid mica]

It wouldn’t at all you’d make deino worth less

[golden coral]

If you're running around the stego, you've already failed, just like trying to run around a trike, that is in spar mode

[viscid mica]

6+ hours at 8 tons just to only be good at killing small ah stuff

[swift beacon]

When is the last time you tried to interact with a Deino anyway

[viscid mica]

Once the roaster is full stuff under 2 tons will be more rare than common

[viscid mica]

Wdym by interact?

[swift beacon]

As in, you went looking for a crocodile, whether to fight, hunt, or bait into chasing you

[viscid mica]

Oh yesterday or so I was watching 2 mixpacks fight as PT there is a clip in #isle-discussion somewhere

[golden coral]

Anyway, trike already beats up a stego, too good really, and rex will most likely do just fine as well, which may or may not require stego buffs

[viscid mica]

I was messing with em and got yoinked will trying to fish

And than 2 weeks before that I was on my like 4 month old deino

[unreal crystal]

So what you are saying is that the only way rex should be able to kill stego is if a big ass rex manages to somehow ambush the stego from the front ?

[viscid mica]

And than 3 weeks before that we killed one as dilos that came far to deep into land

[swift beacon]

And were you deliberately looking for crocodiles? Or were they just conveniently there?

[golden coral]

Yes, or from the side and getting to the head before stego realizes, can raise its tail and turn away

[viscid mica]

Yes

[golden coral]

Do you think rex should just be able to walk up to a stego in the open and somehow get it?

[dusky surge]

i mean

yes the ambush predator should, ideally, ambush

[golden coral]

Do you think it shouldn't have to ambush trike either?

[viscid mica]

I don’t deliberately look for anything except during HTs so uh just there?

[golden coral]

Considering people can and do ambush others on trike and stego, I'm sure it'll be fine

[swift beacon]

So if, say, the Deinos were instead Rexes or Allos, you would have been just as content?

Same end result, one nabs you for flying too low

[viscid mica]

Yes

You make bad choices bad stuff happens

Never trust the water

Deino only last what 8 minutes under water? Less?

You can wait them out to see

[swift beacon]

So truly what harm is there had in dissuading people from playing as an environmental hazard that nothing actually interacts with unless it wants to

Plus, as a completely tangential thing, the carry limit of Deino is incidentally 2 tonnes

I.e. the weight value of a corpse it can pick up

[viscid mica]

Because it defeats the whole purpose of the creature

Deino exists to crest fear for mid sized and below

Its entire existence makes people double guess

You make it significantly weaker at that than the fear of water drops

[swift beacon]

Suddenly taking 750+ damage is pretty terrifying

[viscid mica]

500

Less if your dibble

[swift beacon]

1.5x headshot multiplier

[viscid mica]

Deino is short

Your not hitting headshots that consistently

[swift beacon]

You literally bend your head down to drink

[golden coral]

The problem with deino isn't its power, its how you interact, or don't, with it

[viscid mica]

Be smart tap check

[unreal crystal]

Sorry if I hit a nerve when suggesting stego needs nerfed I'm only saying rex won't have an easy time ambushing FROM THE FRONT .... not impossible but for me some planets must align before i get ambushed from the front by a big ass rex

[viscid mica]

Like I’m being honest I’m not afraid of water if I know I can’t get grabbed

A lil damage? Oh well

You’ll heal that off super fast

At that point you might as well nuke deinos weight and size

[swift beacon]

Don't give me ideas

[viscid mica]

Why have it at 8ts if it can’t do anything to anything

[viscid mica]

You just hate deinos cuz you don’t check water don’t you

https://tenor.com/view/caught-in-4k-caught-in4k-chungus-gif-19840038

[swift beacon]

No I hate them because I can't interact with them

[dusky surge]

i mean i personally dont play stego so its not really hitting a nerve, i just think its lame to have animals get murdered by other animals with zero things they can do about it

[viscid mica]

I mean they are the only semi aquatic that weighs anything rn

[swift beacon]

I imagine if Spino existed I'd have fewer complaints

[viscid mica]

Rex’s, trikes will have more interaction

And as spino, bary and Sucho roll out you’ll get WAY more interaction

[viscid mica]

Ya so it’s more of a time based one

[tropic horizon]

Perhaps, I kinda just wish there were more aquatic herbis because we have next to none

Like is it weird that almost all of the semi aquas are carnivores

[swift beacon]

At the same time, the entire point of Deino is suddenly, crocodile

[viscid mica]

I mean…. Yes?

Like the whole point of Herrera is suddenly death squirl

[golden coral]

Technically doesn't have to be from the front, but you should have to get the jump and surprise the stego, thus giving you the time to get to a good position before the stego can react very much

[viscid mica]

What’s your point?

[swift beacon]

Difference being that if Herrera misses it dies horribly

[viscid mica]

Good position and damage

[golden coral]

That's because you're only worried about deino, when deino isn't needed to be worried about water at all

[viscid mica]

Ya 175kg to 8Ts big difference

[viscid mica]

For now give it some time

[swift beacon]

There's also ways to see the Herrera coming with an advanced strategy called "look up"

[viscid mica]

So real so real but let’s be real gamers…

There is a way to counter deino called “wait”

Like unironically I only die to deinos when I start goofing off or get way overconfident 90% of the time I know they are there

[swift beacon]

I got a better strategy

Avoid anywhere Deinos can reasonably be and use reabsorption to make the distance in a pinch

[viscid mica]

You drink from west rail?

[swift beacon]

If I told you where I drink you'd park a crocodile there

[viscid mica]

Na I play deino once a decade afking cuz no other semis that can fight you exist rn

Is not my style

I can already think of the places

[unreal crystal]

Umn..alright 👍

[viscid mica]

I get it I drink from everywhere cuz I wait till Deino would need to resurface and can fact check water

[viscid mica]

He doesn’t neither do I will still defend stego as everything deserves to be playable

[swift beacon]

Nice try reptile, I'm unreasonably paranoid, never gonna catch me

[vale brook]

deino can literally become immune to stego by going under water

[viscid mica]

Bro look at my pfp

[vale brook]

what does stego do against rex if it can't fight, or run

[swift beacon]

That's exactly what a crocodile would say

[viscid mica]

This is my bbg

[dusky surge]

what?

[viscid mica]

XD we’ve almost made the full list I’m a main for everything at this point

[vale brook]

clearly you thinking the non brawling, mid tier hunting apex losing to stegosaurus on land is contridictory

[viscid mica]

Legit look up mentions me and the word main

I’m a main for everything at this point

[viscid mica]

Terrible Truely

[vale brook]

it is infact a terrible thursday

[viscid mica]

Thursday?

[swift beacon]

Deinos poisoned our water supply, burned our crops, and delivered a plague unto our houses. And even if they haven't, I'm not gonna stand around waiting to see if it happens.

[viscid mica]

Ya there ya go

[vale brook]

i dont know what you mean

[viscid mica]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1010085260140220477/1367315906048430090/3B545ED4-6114-4B63-A002-F89CB573940F.gif

[vale brook]

fake news

[viscid mica]

Forget stego

Kentro supremacy

[unreal crystal]

I think once rex is out we will be able to see how overpowered stego is for his weightclass. I might be wrong but I think rex will take a similar beating as trike did when it was 1st released without sparring

[vale brook]

la kentro reigns supreme

[viscid mica]

I mean Rex shouldn’t win if they don’t play it smart Rex shouldn’t walk down a stego and just win

[swift beacon]

I think quite the opposite to be fair

[slim dragon]

You mean back when trike annihilated stego ?

[viscid mica]

Still does tbh

[swift beacon]

The cracks in Stego's toolkit will be at full display against an animal Stego doesn't immediately eviscerate

[golden coral]

Trikes could still win, despite lacking that, so I dont' know if that's so bad

But honestly, up stego to 8T, adjust damage, there we go

[viscid mica]

Ya when stego gets deleted by Rex crush being op

Bro 2800 damage is just insane

[vale brook]

the only real thing keeping trike back was agility lol

it had the CC, damage, health, resistence, and speed to murder stegos indiscriminately

that's why trike was nerfed lol

getting nerfed before you even drop in the live branch is kinda cray cray, i cant imagine what monster day one rex will be like

[viscid mica]

Tbh better to drop in HT op than end up with the pachy treatment

[vale brook]

pachy went from the best to a troll pick

insane character development

[swift beacon]

I wouldn't classify that as character development ngl

Picking Pachy is basically saying "I want to ruin someone's day by keeping them from escaping my megamixpack, even if it kills me," or actively throwing, no in between

[viscid mica]

EH DONT YOU EVER DISRESPECT PACHY BY SAYING ITS A MIXPACKERS

[viscid mica]

Fr

[swift beacon]

Mixpackers will use anything they feel can be effective. Halving the opponent's sprint speed is very effective at locking something down

[unreal crystal]

Pachy mixpacking with larger herbivores ? I've never seen or heard such thing

[viscid mica]

https://tenor.com/view/prempdr-fc-mobile-fifa-gif-16778760554072111618

[swift beacon]

As is halving damage done or tripling stamina costs, though to a lesser degree

As is however, Pachy solo is..

[viscid mica]

Aight pause STOP SIR

MIXPACKING IS CARNI ON CARNI OR CARNI AND HERBI

Herding is herbi on herbi herding is fine

[swift beacon]

Well, tragic

[viscid mica]

Herbivores have always grouped

Carnivores do not

[golden coral]

And it's always been as bad as the others

[viscid mica]

https://tenor.com/view/no-nope-no-way-noo-absolutely-not-gif-20244171

[swift beacon]

I think there's little distinction between carni/carni mixpacking, herbi/herbi mixherding, or herbi/carni mixpacking beyond whether the party in question can eat what they kill

[golden coral]

Mixing is mixing, carni, herbi, or both, it's bad in all three cases because it does exactly the same thing

[viscid mica]

Herding not “mix herding” just herding herbivore son mass tend to group in mixed colonies

[swift beacon]

Take for example, Galli Pachy Dibble mixherd

[viscid mica]

Herd

Normal ok is fine

[swift beacon]

Try to run, Galli keeps kicking you
Stop to fight Galli, Pachy breaks you
Pachy breaks you, Dibble mauls you

[viscid mica]

Imma keep it a stack if you consider galli worth stopping for I can’t help you there

[swift beacon]

70 damage is 70 damage

[viscid mica]

Alt left click is alt left click

[swift beacon]

You have to stop sprinting to use it

[golden coral]

Causing you to stop and have to deal with it, letting the others catch up

Diablo/trike fighting stego perhaps otherwise

[viscid mica]

What you play that’s that slow man

[golden coral]

Anything slower than galli?

The entire point of mixing is to force you to deal with two different things, that you can deal with individually in two different ways, at the same time

[viscid mica]

Ya but pachy can only leg break like 3 things rn and dibble are deathly slow

[golden coral]

"Only"... xD

[unreal crystal]

I agree 100% but unfortunately the reality is even if you play solo troodon good luck trying to mess with a pachy or teno without having the herd dibbles and maias joining in the fight against you lol

[viscid mica]

Can I ask how many hours do each of you have

I’m interested

[swift beacon]

3k

[slim dragon]

I have 2

[swift beacon]

Give or take

[golden coral]

7K

[viscid mica]

You got 3k hours and you say throwing out a single alt left click on a galli is world ending

[golden coral]

Been here since shortly after danger floof was introduced, way back

[vale brook]

job, all of you

[viscid mica]

[vale brook]

(i have 2k hours)

[viscid mica]

I got just under 3k lol

[golden coral]

I tend to get very attached to just one or two games, and only play that for far too long, and it took quite a while before we even had any other option than Isle at that xD

[vale brook]

that's fair, i had a phase where literally all i played was JWE

[viscid mica]

I’m still shook that yall think a galli is a threat

[swift beacon]

I don't play much lately specifically because of this

[golden coral]

I don't think that's what we said, we're pointing out that mixing is mixing, and has the same effect no matter the diet

[viscid mica]

Like what are you troodon?

[viscid mica]

I’d disagree

Like fundamentally herbivores in groups act differently from carni on carni or carni and herbi mix’s

[golden coral]

Not when it comes to what the playables do

[swift beacon]

Galli is not necessarily a threat on its own

[golden coral]

Okay, so diablo and trike if you will, maia and trike, or maia and stego, or any other option

The point still stands

[swift beacon]

You can certainly kill with it, otherwise you might as well throw Dryos at the problem for the same effect

[viscid mica]

I don’t get it

[golden coral]

Enough dryos will get the job done too

[golden coral]

If you think galli isn't bad enough, then try another combination. You can have dibbles chase a stego that is trying to escape a trike

Or a maia chasing something a stego can't catch up to, to inflict damage, if you stop to fight the maia, stego catches up and power swings you

[viscid mica]

3 hit KO

[golden coral]

You need to stop to fight the dibble, letting the trike catch up

[viscid mica]

Get bleed going on the Maia

[viscid mica]

If you were that close where in a short amount of time they can catch up you already made a mistake

[swift beacon]

If you were close enough to let the Ceratos surround you and let the Rex catch up you made a mistake

[viscid mica]

Yes

[swift beacon]

I've seen the song and dance play out before, if one is bad then all are

[viscid mica]

I don’t see herbivore groups actively roaming the map for combat

They stick to there zone defend it yes

But they don’t hunt endlessly like real mixpackers

[swift beacon]

Carnivores don't roam either, they stick to where the herbivores are

Or hover just outside the death zone to pick off isolated targets

[viscid mica]

I’d disagree

Mix pack behaviour is always the same

They go from hotspot to hotspot looking for anything and fight anything they outnumber

They don’t stay

And they are far more aggressive

[swift beacon]

Mixherds generally do the same, though the slower pace of its members trends to longer stays between hotspots

[viscid mica]

Far far less aggressive in general unless they have young

[swift beacon]

Clearly you've never met a Maia player

Or even a Dibble

In any case, the only fundamental difference between a mixherd and a mixpack is that one can eat what it kills and the other doesn't

If Cerato ate plants instead of meat it'd still use its tools to chase things down for its Dibble buddy

[worthy steeple]

#balance-feedback message the way i see it is the rex will get absolutely owned in its juvie-early sub stages, when it becomes decent sub it will still get hunted by allos, omnis, dilos and other rexes, not to mention a chance to die in a fight with herbivores
and if it dares to become an adult it will either die trying to kill the trike/stego or die to other canni rex, or just starve to death

doubt rex will be huge issue, i’d say trike is more dangerous than rex since it’s more tanky, it can sustain itself easily with just grazing, it doesn’t care about deinos so we will see trike overpacks more often than rex overpacks for sure

tho it will be super hard to grow trike with awful juvie stage and every single other animal being faster

[mellow summit]

that makes trex an apex https://discordapp.com/channels/401464048610312193/778350260027129865/1369818399789809665

[cosmic pelican]

#balance-feedback message Let's make troodon a worse dilo, hell yeah!

[golden coral]

@unreal crystal You would probably have to make the stam cost very very low, otherwise you'd just stall the stego out. So while it could work, you need to ensure stego can't just be "worn down" by waiting/baiting. While a stun/knockdown resistance while holding tail up would be nice, and a way to not worry too much about trike and rex, it would still have to be so low that others can't just walk outside of range and wait the stego out. Where's the actual issue with stego holding the tail up "forever", why is that a problem in the first place?

[hasty coyote]

could make the stam cost like ht cera's cost, so little that its like 0.1% per tick including stam regen so that it basically means you can't regen stam.

[carmine tundra]

@near basin humans will exist to be hunted

[near basin]

humans will have guns and their ways of survival, facilities to be in etc

[carmine tundra]

guns will be rare, at least ones like shotgun and rifle

[near basin]

guns will be rare, but the post isn't about balance

it's about their existence

[carmine tundra]

their existence will be fun although only time will tell who knows, i think humans will be a good addition to the game

there will also be servers that have no humans so you could just play those instead

from what ive heard they will also be way easier to implement than dinos

[viscid mica]

I mean using those 2 or even stego as hyper specifics is kinda weak

@unreal crystal what in stegos weight class are you comparing it too?

@near basin doom projecting when they ain’t even available in a semi proper form is kinda unfair we won’t know until we get there

[near basin]

this isn't about balance

it's just about how people will split between playables

[unreal crystal]

6t herbivores weightclass

[viscid mica]

Ther is nothing else in its weight class atm

[unreal crystal]

You know on paper, when you look at it, "oh stego? Just don't bother you can always run away from it" yes sounds great but in reality the situation is different and everyone knows stego will 3rd party everytime they have a chance because nobody wants to fight them. This often results in carnivores having to abandoned fights, starve if they are too injured to fight etcetc.... all I'm saying is they should not get to keep the tail up forever without any punishment.... you keen even keep the broken hitboxs and ridiculous burst damage but no more tail up without any sort of punishment. I think that's perfectly reasonable and stego would still be overpowered

[unreal crystal]

Stegos is

[swift beacon]

When is the last time you saw any other herbivore tbf

[viscid mica]

?????????

[viscid mica]

Two days ago when I last play

[swift beacon]

A Tenonto I assume

[viscid mica]

I saw beipi, teno, pachy even and dibble a stego, funny enough a hypsi too

[swift beacon]

Oh, how delightful

[viscid mica]

I roam a lot and was vibing as PT you see a lot when you do that

[swift beacon]

Well, from my experience, both as and against herbivores, there is scarcely any true difference in behavior between the two, save that carnivores are generally more capable of chasing on average while herbivores are more capable of forcing retreats

[hasty coyote]

imo, it doesnt matter if the "average" herbivore is less aggro anyway, you have to balance around them being aggro. Else you get initial ht maia where it would just go around bullying everything in sight.

[swift beacon]

^

[unreal crystal]

What are you confused about? Stego is in the 6T class/category whatever you wanna call it. I say it's op for his weight because I'm able to compare it to dibble (which is in the 3T weightclass) and trike (9T weightclass). Although there is nobody other than stego in the 6t weightclass I'm able to make a judgements based on lower/higher weightclass. Hopefully that makes sense

[viscid mica]

So your saying stego is op cuz stego is op?

As there is currently no other creature in its weight class

[unreal crystal]

Stego is op because compared with dibble he is way stronger than it should be and compared with trike it's very similar and in certain situations stronger

[viscid mica]

Dibble is half its weight

And stego is slow so it having apex in punching power makes sense

By no means is stego stronger

Outright than trike

[hasty coyote]

trike bullies stegos, it can just keep flipping them while facing them and taking practically 0 damage. Though if the trike plays poorly and exposes its flank, then its gonna get shredded. Like even diablos are terrifying for a stego, a good solo diablo can kill a bad stego, and 2 good diablos can shred most stegos.

The reason stego has such high damage is because it is slower and smaller than a rex, so it needs that damage to kill a rex if it tries to attack the stego. Trike doesnt need such high damage since it has more hp, has heavy resistance on the head, better cc, and can spar with a rex.

[vale brook]

@quiet shoal #balance-feedback message "its supposed to be a scavenger" no its not???

its absolutely meant to be an absolute menace in the trees

its the weight of a piano shredding into you with claws

like if its a scavenger, why would it be able to one shot dilos like it currently can 😭

[unreal crystal]

I get it it, 100% it has to able to defend itself from rex and nobody is arguing that and if there will ever be a case where rex is stomping stego I'll be the 1st to admit I was wrong but the fact that stego is able to keep tail up without even a tiny bit of stam cost makes stego OP even in the hands of a newbie. There has to be some skill and strategy involved imo.

[steep gazelle]

@quiet shoal Isn't that realistic? Imagine something weighing 175kg and with huge claws falling on you from over 10 meters in the air. What do you think will happen?

[vale brook]

its far more than 10 meters 😭

some if these trees are insanely huge

[hasty coyote]

I get that as well, I can agree stego could use some cost to keeping it up, but I don’t think it has to be anything major since keeping the tail up is one of its primary defenses. You could make it like ht cera, which the stam cost is so minimal that it functionally serves just to negate stam regen, which would be a decent nerf that isn’t overkill. However, stego is also just a simple dino to play, so noobs will have success with it either way.

[golden coral]

Diablo can take on stego, so if that's fine, stego taking on trike and rex should be fine too. Bring third partied has nothing to do with is, it can happen to any playable at any time something else is around that can do it. It's a little strange that diablo can take on stego, even stunning it, but somehow that's not op then? Or that trikes can just shred a stego? So should they too be nerfed?

[wheat crescent]

RELEASE THE REX

[hasty coyote]

Wrong channel my dude

[golden coral]

Wouldn't that risk making it even more dependent on tactile?

[hasty coyote]

That’s more of tactile being an op crutch tbh.

Many dinos are reliant on it

[golden coral]

Yeah, but stego has more use of it than most due to the excessive costs, but putting the swing at 5% and jab at 4% might help

So it could work, but youd have to compensate for the no stam regen with lower costs

[hasty coyote]

If tactile gets removed, it’s gonna need a stam buff anyway

[unreal crystal]

Diablo can take on a bad stego yes but a 3T stego can solo a fg deinosuchus. Also, one of the changes i proposed is that stego is immune to stuns when tail up(1.2x type of thing) and this would be a big buff for stego.
Also, since this is a survival game if you are a really bad stego you can always run away from trike and eat your plants etc and be completely fine... with carnivores it's completely different.
And about 3rd partying you can say "it can happen to any playable" all you want but that's just not the reality (I don't play officials tho bc mixpacking and other shenanigans). Everyone reading this knows exactly what I'm saying when I'm talking about stego 3rd partying and I won't even mention body camping and stuff that's just a classic these days so when ppl say "stego? Ez just run" I'm like 🤦‍♂️

[thorn mountain]

3t can get grabbed lmao

also making them use stam for having their tail up is kinda dumb imo

[unreal crystal]

Yeah I disagree

[thorn mountain]

the reason I say it is cause its a defensive animal maybe a better way is charges? so each power swing will take some stam and 1 charge and you could lets say have 4 charges that you need to keep aware of. If a player is bad they will use all those charges leading them to use the normal swing. if the player is good they will only use them when needed, and lets say it has like a 10-30 second cooldown to regain a charge

just to make stegs a little bit more aware abt what they are swinging at

[unreal crystal]

Yes something along those lines could work aswell I thought about charges too

[hasty coyote]

thats probably even worse since its gonna need to spam power swing to deal with a rex

so only using it 4 times until you're stuck with a worse attack overall kinda ends up with death

[viscid mica]

Why does that specifically make it op?

[thorn mountain]

it was a example I would make it more lol

just to get the point across ya know

[hasty coyote]

if you make it more then theres no point in charges lol, it can only use power swing 10 times before its fully gassed out

[golden coral]

I mean, the point is that some complaints are not stego specific and thus do not count. Trike, diablo, all the others can also guard, and so on. And sure, the potential stun buff would be nice, but as you said, stego can run from trike, so not needed there at least. I just dont want stego to be baited and out lasted by small things that shouldn't be hunting it, but might now be able to threaten and drain stego stam by dancing around it and forcing it to remain in defensive stance until it can't. If jab were better in all angles, perhaps, but swing is stegos only really good attack so I'd rather not limit that unless needed.

[thorn mountain]

thats true

[golden coral]

@unreal crystal also if the issue is stego putting head in defensible position and waiting there, call of the hunt. You lost your chance, give up, move on, and find better and easier prey. You're not meant to be able to get a target at all times. If a diablo or trike does the same, you're not getting them either.

[vale brook]

a deino losing to an animal it can one shot is hilarious lol, the biggest skill issue ive seen

like the stego doesnt even have to be swimming at that point

you would physically have to go on land and sit there for it to happen

just because something can happen doesnt mean its happening often, because id hope deino players are smarter than that

[golden coral]

You'd kill it in three bites to the head too, and I doubt it does as much damage as a grown stego, even with swing

[hasty coyote]

a 3 ton stego would deal 900 with power swing. def enough to be a threat to deino, but with its low hp and the fact deino can lunge it, deino should win if it has a brain

[viscid mica]

Oh ya a deino should win that

[vale brook]

a 1 year old capable of moving its fingers could probably win that fight

to lose that fight you'd have to put a head of lettuce on the keyboard and tell it to play for you

[unreal crystal]

Imagine playing stego and thinking "this is perfectly balanced" whilst being about 5 times bigger than the biggest land carnivore for years

[vale brook]

so what does that have to do with what i said

and even then they still manage to die to that land carnivore so what's your point lol

thinking stego isn't balanced because you can't be brain dead while fighting it is a choice

if you really don't want to die to it that badly, walk away

[unreal crystal]

Found it funny you bringing up the "skill issue" argument whilst debating on how stego doesn't need a nerf.

[vale brook]

so you think a deino that dies to a 3 ton stego doesnt have a skill issue?

despite being able to lunge that stego on land?

which is effectively a one shot?

and even if it didn't have a lunge, 3 bites to the head takes it out

like that is OBJECTIVELY a skill issue at that point

that's like dying to a dryo as an omni when you could just RMB and instawin

also stego is meant to be tusseling with rex, nerfing it would just make it extinct when rex drops lol

[unreal crystal]

Well you are assuming this fight would happen near the edge of the water otherwise the grab ability won't be a one shot. If you are good you can still pull this off by baiting deino lunge etc

[vale brook]

3 bites to the head and it drops

also... why the hell would you be that far in land that you can not grab and then walk to water?

deino players really want to be in the middle of plains and win against stego

crazy work

[unreal crystal]

How on earth you getting headahoted on land by deino

[vale brook]

how are you getting killed by stego as deino

go under water

oh but that's not valid

herbivores should be easy pickings! that's why stegosaurus, something meant to be able to 1v1 rex based on skill, should be nerfed

[unreal crystal]

A 4.1 T stego can camp river shore food literally bullying deino

[slim dragon]

So can a 4.1ton anything

[dusky surge]

and a deino can choose to ignore the shiny hook floating in the water with no bait

[tropic horizon]

Don’t get baited

[vale brook]

no, lizard brain says i must sit there and let the stego bait me

[dusky surge]

i guarantee, elder maia will be doing it

[slim dragon]

4.1ton trike can
4.1ton rex will also be able to

[slim dragon]

100%

[vale brook]

but it's a problem when stego does it

tuh! herbivores should eat grass and die!!

[dusky surge]

just wait till anky just bottom walks and you cant even pick it up and it just crushes your body lmao

[slim dragon]

https://tenor.com/view/intergalactic-army-of-darkness-waking-up-skeleton-army-coughing-dust-gif-2015127061685468571

[vale brook]

i will never understand people's obsession with letting deino just go wild and kill anything it wants

you have a creature that has one (1) threat, has a 1 shot mechanic that already deletes a majority of the roster (yes, including full roster), the slowest hunger drain in game, the most base/consistent bleed resistence in game, and is ambush based with close to 0 actual counter play outside of just knowing the map

but yes

stego is the problem because deino players swim up to the shiny tail

zero accountability lol

[dusky surge]

you know how your teachers tell you to ignore your bullies and they'll leave you alone?

yea that's a load of crap but in the isle, it actually works

[slim dragon]

Teachers should have told me to hide underwater whenever my bullies come around

[dusky surge]

hell, fun fact, if you remain underwater, and the stego doesn't see you, it just won't stick around because it has no motivation to do so

[tropic horizon]

Just eat them

[vale brook]

its always "stegos get bored so easily and wait for people to fight them but no one will cause so op!!!" but somehow also "this stego body camped me for 20 years while i lost 5000 pounds. it never moved from this specfic spot."

how will i ever recover from hyperfocusing on the stego instead of just

going down river for a few minutes, waiting for it to leave

[unreal crystal]

I'm not saying stego shouldn't be powerful, like 100% stego should kill a land deino 100% of the times. I'm only pointing out how strong stego is and how adding a very small stam cost for keeping the tail up indefinitely is a very reasonable change.

[vale brook]

15% cost per swing more than makes up for it imo

especially with how horrid its alt attack is

[crimson crater]

if anything stego should be more stamina efficient

[vale brook]

yeah it kinda falls apart the moment you dont pick tactile lol

[crimson crater]

having to rely on 1 mut ain’t it

[vale brook]

its like how not picking speed mutations as pachy just leads to your death via cerato

[worthy steeple]

real

[vale brook]

not picking tactile on stego just leads to a slow death via cerato as well

[dusky surge]

stego losing all of its overpowered nature when it doesn't have tact equipped

[unreal crystal]

Yes I agree that's why I also mentioned before that if dev decide to add stam cost the swings should cost alot less stam. Otherwise it would be a unfair nerf.

[worthy steeple]

playing without tactile in general is very painful, most carnivores that hunt you are very stamina efficient and if you’re herbivore getting jumped by a pack.. well let’s say without the tactile you’ll die very quickly

[vale brook]

it goes from scary demon that the crocodiles fear to probably the second or third worst animal in game

only behind pachy and

well, pachy really.

maybe dryo/hypsi if your consider them bad due to missing burrowing/climbing

[crimson crater]

they’re surprisingly decent

[dusky surge]

i think the current best herbi is between teno or maia? haven't decided which

[vale brook]

yah i like them

[dusky surge]

dryo and hypsi are fine because they have the tools to not die consistently, they're just not great nor particularly engaging

althoug dryo being hunted is unironically a high octane blast

[vale brook]

does stego still get self stunned if it hits a tree/rock

[dusky surge]

use your dodges well and you break knees so hard, and it's SO fun

[dusky surge]

with powerswing, i think so yea

[vale brook]

i have a stego on islander i'll probably check later today cause i forgor

[worthy steeple]

hmm idk about hypsi, not with the current kit, it just gets killed if it gets spotted, dryo has better chances

[tropic horizon]

Probably Maia now after the buffs, insane survivability and combat potential

[dusky surge]

in HT? yea probably lol

[dusky surge]

stay near a jungle and you're vibing

[tropic horizon]

Whatever Maia can’t bully it just, runs away from.

[worthy steeple]

i’d say maia, but it has issues

[worthy steeple]

fair

[dusky surge]

genuinely, TRY tracking a hypsi in the dense foliage of a jungle lmao

[worthy steeple]

teno is till better fighter, swimmer, does bleed and more agile, tho it’s easier to survive as maia

you only really fear dilos as maia

[vale brook]

ask wavepoole instead valiant im lazy

nvm he convinced me

[golden coral]

Considering how bad stego was for quite a while, you're right, there were issues. Even now, stego is mostly good due to the swing. Stego struggled far more than it should for far too long.

[vale brook]

https://youtu.be/UhdVtFrD5S4?si=ZXvDX7mW4be4-mwt

@elfin night BEGGED and PLEADED (/s) for me to post this so his input could be taken into consideration

idk what that input is, watch video and make your own conclusion

[keen plover]

how long are they muted for lol

[vale brook]

just 1 more hour

[keen plover]

HAHA

bro could not wait lmaooooo

[vale brook]

i really was going to just leave it at "ask wavepoole" but i felt mean

plus i think he's posted feedback for me before so i cant lose that connection for when i'm on slow mo

[golden coral]

It can not, you're still very vunerable at that point, what with the low health, plus head multiplier. Even with swing, it's quite the dangerous prospect to attempt, especially since you're smaller, easier to step too deep, and so on.

[worthy steeple]

for what?

[vale brook]

gif had bad word in the link

[worthy steeple]

oh

[vale brook]

tenor betrayed him

[worthy steeple]

tenor did that to me once, but it was the gif itself

somehow deleted it before the mods could see it

[vale brook]

dude i'm so scared of accidentally posting a really bad gif because i didn't watch it all the way through

[worthy steeple]

YEAH THATS LITERALLY WHAT HAPPENED TO ME😭 i have no idea how im still not banned here after that

[elfin night]

I AM FREE

[tropic horizon]

Welcome.

[elfin night]

My point: stego needs to keep its tail raised at all times. Not only because this indefinite holding is offset by the tremendous cost of each swing that also locks you in place, but also because parrying some opponents is key and it would be so dumb to get tired out just because you are getting ready to deflect the small trike or dibble running at you

and as it appears clear, it needs to hit hard and quick against things that aren't a fifth of its size

I also don't know how to feel about that suggestion of making powerswing 5% stam instead of an ideal 8-10%

[dusky surge]

i wouldnt call 8% ideal lol

[elfin night]

stego with 10 swings already has enough damage to potentially kill everything that isn't a shant, cama or strain with body shots alone

why give it 20

I would rather keep low stam swings for anky as it is very much the only thing it can do

[elfin night]

15-17k damage without accounting for headshots

you can put down 2 deinos back to back easily

@tall cypress carno is not meant to be going after ceras reliably, why buff it just so it can go outside of its niche?

we are getting rex and allo soon. Ceras will no longer rule

[dusky surge]

yea but that's assuming everything hits

[elfin night]

Yeah, the same logic applies to every attack in this game

and this one is exceedingly far reaching and quick, so it is one of those that you won't really miss unless you get baited

maybe a slight reduction could work

but not 5%

And ofc kill tactile endurance

[thorn mountain]

#balance-feedback message the hitbox isnt even that bad if you and the person have ping thats less than 70

[hasty coyote]

teno can deal over 10k damage assuming it spams kick and every one of them lands, does that make teno op?

[dusky surge]

^

[hasty coyote]

or diablo having literally infinite damage

[dusky surge]

or deino

or trike lol

hell, rex

[elfin night]

How long does it take to unload all of that damage in a quick burst?

Because steg doesn’t take much

[hasty coyote]

teno still deals heavy burst damage with its kicks, but teno also has good speed for its size so it can run from larger threats, unlike stego who has to be able to fight something 1.5x its size

[elfin night]

Yes

Hence why I did say that maybe some reduction could do

However I don’t know if halving the cost is necessary

Considering most apexes in this game is gonna die in maybe 5-6 good blows and being large is bad vs stego unless you can cc the hell out of it

[hasty coyote]

especially since stego has to burn 60% of its stam to kill its main predators, while teno only has to burn 12%

[elfin night]

It is a nuanced thing

[hasty coyote]

honestly, once tactile is gone, it pretty much will be.

[elfin night]

Because also those things that might need multiple blows to go down are gonna be rare

When the damn trike takes 16 hours on a 100% diet 😭 😭

[hasty coyote]

and those that only need 1 attack have the means to dodge

[elfin night]

Some do

Others get obliterated

Omni for instance can dodge

Cera and dilo not so much

Which I think is funny because people keep using cera against stego

When being slow against stego is a death sentence

[worthy steeple]

that’s a reason i hate tactile a lot less than i hate other meta mutations

sadly, having tactile is waaay too necessary

[elfin night]

Ceras? Lmao, they can come, feel free to land a bite or two

[hasty coyote]

dilo can't since it has bad turing, yeah, but it also has really good speed so it is only vulnerable for a short time.
Cera is surprisingly good at dodging because its speed and agility are not that far off from omni, its damn near on par with pachy.

And all of your examples dont need to interact with stego for the whole fight. Dilos have venom, ceras have vomit, and omnis have bleed and pounce. So for the majority of the fight, they stay out of range and only go in when theres an opening, and with stego's long end lag, theres plenty of openings.

[elfin night]

Another option could be upsizing stego a little and giving it apex treatment on top of a few changes like slight stam reduction on the powerswing

But honestly I would like it to remain punishing.

[elfin night]

Think of how many hits you’re gonna need to land to do anything meaningful even as a cera. It’s gonna take a while and probably several ceras to get the vomit in in case the stego is in the open and not camping somewhere safe. Same with dilos, they’re gonna need many venom procs in order to do something and without getting obliterated.

Omni I would say is the best anti stego carnivore right now, but even then 6000 bleed takes effort to inflict, especially if there’s terrain to exploit around

[hasty coyote]

ironically, I think the dino that will struggle with stego the most (thats supposed to hunt it) is allo, still in 1-shot range but too big to dodge

[elfin night]

One tree and now they’re in shambles

Maybe, yeah

Although I guess a pounce from an allo is gonna hurt

If they make allo agile I will crash out because then that means we have Omni but big i.e. you stand no chance fighting it as something within pinning range, you have to respect his eminence and leave the area immediately

[hasty coyote]

9, 9 charged bite headshots and that stego is dead. If they land body shots, then its gonna take 17 to kill. But its only gonna take like 5 to vomit the stego, and then its forced to leave good terrain to graze and drink, and they can keep vomiting it. Dilos can wait for nightfall, then it only takes like 3-5 bites to envenomate it, though each will need to land at least 1 hit and they need to keep the venom up, so dilos will struggle against a stego a bit and should. And for omni, that stego has to either go camp a wall, or burn ALL of its stamina bucking off the first 2 omnis. If the stego burns its stam, it gets grappled by 4. And if it can do neither, it dies incredibly quickly to damage pounces until it gets grappled.

If stego gets to a safe spot first then yeah they gotta call off the hunt, but same with anything else, are you gonna fight the teno who found a spot where you have to approach the rear? or diablo/trike where you have to go to its face? or a pachy where it can punt you off a rock to your death? Stego is strong, yes, but its endurance is so low that the stego can't afford to miss. The only other dino thats punished as hard for missing is pachy, and pachy is garbage atm. Stego doesnt need infinite swings, but it def should have more than what it does now.

[near basin]

Why was my balance feedback deleted

[slim dragon]

silenced for saying the truth

[near basin]

apparently it's because i included a link

[stark knoll]

You can include links in posts, but the post itself must be a suggestion or piece of feedback. This is neither

[near basin]

I was feedbacking herrera's pounce lmao what

Pointing out what its pounce can do and asking if it's balanced at all

[stark knoll]

Feedback would be to say "I don't think herrera should be as lethal as it is" not posting a link and asking "thoughts?"

[glossy elbow]

yeah thats worded as a question it isn't feedback or a suggestion

[near basin]

I used the question as a way to imply it, but sure I'll make it more literal for you so you can comprehend it

[stark knoll]

If you want to simply discuss something, that can be done in here, but for #balance-feedback itself you should post an actual suggestion/feedback

[stark knoll]

What's with the condescension?

[elfin night]

will the carno upsize suggestions ever stop 😭

[glossy elbow]

probably not no

[elfin night]

they don't even have the intent of making carno good, just good against cera

[near basin]

https://tenor.com/view/key-and-peele-substitute-chicaneries-gif-26839281

[elfin night]

they almost always have that as an argument "cera is too strong, so carno..."

instead of simply nerfing cera and not have 2 op carnis at once

d u h

[near basin]

I think carno works pretty good rn for what it's intended for

it's not supposed to take down tenos, it's a small game hunter

[elfin night]

exactly

you get that, it's not meant to be disney carnotaurus

[near basin]

i think they just miss being powerful enough to hunt tenos

[elfin night]

speeding at mach 4 before cutting off a cera's leg with its horns and then grabbing them by the neck and dipping them in nitric acid

[stark knoll]

Or the suggestions that carno should even be remotely in the same league as allos..............

[elfin night]

they miss being unstoppable

[elfin night]

I read that

my god...

What could go wrong making allo but 50kph?

[near basin]

what is more broken, previous carno or current cera?

[tropic horizon]

Which previous carno are we talking about here

There’s several, depends what you’re referring to

Cause if we’re talking gateway launch carno

Possibly more broken than current cera….

[near basin]

tbf i understand it being broken in the roster we had

[elfin night]

I cannot say much since I only really experienced the U2 carno

which, despite being kinda held back by the lack of AI and being a cannibal...It was a nightmare to deal with as something like omni or teno

had like 200 bite force, 2000kg and could knock you over with a charge as teno

and then I know that at first carno just steamrolled cera

[tropic horizon]

I recall update 3 carno being pretty busted, update 4 carno was kept in check by pachy and teno, 4.5 carno was pretty strong too. I didn’t play on update 5-5.5 but I’ve heard it was decent around that time. Update 6 carno was busted again, was the first step towards the pursuit carno we have today. 6.5 carno was probably the most unfun version of carno. And then gateway carno was broken on launch and then in a weird balance limbo up until what we have today.

[elfin night]

pachy holding back carno...

gone are the days of laughter and love

[tropic horizon]

I miss pachy launch but god was it broken in hindsight. I had so much fun with it though.

You could just bully big groups of Omnis, teno could barely stand up to you, carno was a bit more even but it was tough pachy was just a menace.

Like people say cera is taking its “revenge” from legacy.

No, if any playable ever had that it was pachy.

[elfin night]

pachy gang

[tropic horizon]

Pachy had the best revenge arc period

[elfin night]

Saw videos of a single pachy killing 2 fg carnos

glorious

[tropic horizon]

I remember me and two other pachies 3v5ing some carnos back then

Long live the pachy mafia

[elfin night]

but ofc it has to be left in its current state

no middle ground

because how dare the herbi be competent

[sage marsh]

The only remotely valid arguement I've seen for keeping Carno at its current size is that if it was back at 1800kg it would absolutely demolish Ceras. Since Cera now has a knockdown resist that argument is now pretty moot. No reason we can't buff Carno up to at least 1600kg. Ceras knockdown resist it believe is 1.25 of its weight which ends up being 1625kg so just enough to resist the knockdown of a fully grown Carno.

[tall cypress]

This is what i trying to say

[elfin night]

@tall cypress 😭 😭

[tall cypress]

Carno needs buffs you cant change facts

[elfin night]

No I mean the downvote

Like yeah I know downvotes and upvotes don’t matter

But why

[tall cypress]

:D

[elfin night]

And carno got the buffs it needed in the HT

[tall cypress]

Just you mostly right but full map stamina seems strong and if ptera knows how to play it would destroy raptors and other small dinos

[elfin night]

I didn’t say that??

I am in fact saying that the current giving stamina, which allows ptera to traverse most of the map from any takeoff point in a very short time, is something I don’t mind sacrificing or reducing slightly for the sake of making it not garbage on land

As you barely have any movement or stamina to do anything on land other than bullying certain fresh spawns

And I think that the abysmal land capabilities should be enhanced including stamina and speed as well as agility

And nerfing ptera’s flight for that end would be okay

[tall cypress]

Instead of directly adding a large buff to its stamina, the stamina spent can be increased gradually as it ascends, so that it does not spend too much stamina while maneuvering and it will not be overbuffed.

[elfin night]

I personally think that ptera should ALMOST feel like a troodon in terms of threat level

Or like a more frail but more land capable and offensively geared beipi

Not a helpless fresh spawn bully

[tall cypress]

Then we can give its bites bleed factor

[elfin night]

Problem is, the stamina across the board needs a buff except for flight. We could increase the upward flying one or even add a small cost for gliding, but being literally unable to carry a body for more than 5 meters in the water while also having those slow ass crouch, walk and trot, on top of a running speed barely faster than stego and with approximately the same stam if not less is the exact opposite of what we want

[elfin night]

Ptera used to have bleed, there’s a reason as for why it got removed

I think ptera should focus more on raw damage or even some cc

[tall cypress]

I mean you mostly right but lets think about it. Ptera is damn risky dino to buff because it can fly and you cant kill it easly. That cause a big problem named Good play. That means if some who can play Good would destroy anything with that character. I repeat you are right ptera need a buff but it would be doomsday if it owerbuffs so raw damage and CC is imposibble

We can only buff its stamina and kg

[elfin night]

I meant the raw damage and cc focus during LAND movement

Meaning that its main combat strengths would lie there

And then flying combat would be for other pteras and slight harassing mostly, but not the main thing

[tall cypress]

We can add New mechanic

[elfin night]

Considering that troodon in HT now can do triple the damage it does in the live branch and beipi is also untouchable for most things in the wager while bleeding out herras in three hits, then I think it would be fair for ptera to get the tools to maybe fight against troo, dryo or even beipi

[elfin night]

It is getting an entire rework

I was merely reiterating my wish of them focusing on what they promised

[tall cypress]

can catch dinosaurs with its feet?

[elfin night]

Ew no!!!!

[elfin night]

That is the most cursed inaccuracy you could ever do with a pterosaur

Just look at their feet, they’re clearly not meant for grabbing stuff

And then it lacks the strength in its chest and arms to take off with extra weight, as it is mainly a glider

And well, pterosaurs use their legs for flight too, hence the membrane there

[neon willow]

I don't think it needs a stamina buff, actually. I think they need to adjust stamina drain rates. Increase drain slightly in flight (for example, a very small drain when gliding), and trade it for greatly reduced stamina drain on the ground and in water.

@.valiant. what is pteras current damage, if you know?

[neon willow]

The only thing I worry about is I don't think ptera should be punching up the same way troodon can - they probably shouldn't be threatening a teno. I do think they should be capable of threatening troo, beipi, dryo, hypsi etc on land, but maybe not a lot bigger. If they're threatened by larger animals I do think the response should be to take off and fly

• they don't need to fight back against most of the roster (kinda like red jungle fowl/quail - short distance fliers to escape danger). They should be capable of eating carcasses though and getting organs.

[elfin night]

Oh, we see eye to eye then

I absolutely don’t think ptera should be fighting something like a herra or omni

But dryo, beipi, homalo, maybe proto, velo or troodon sure

Which is still far below the offensive power of troodon that can kill dilos on its own

[elfin night]

And ptera’s current damage is 20

Acceptable, although I really dislike how it is straight up the optimal way to harass stuff as you fly while land combat is abysmal

I’ve killed land pteras as a sub beipi, it is so dumb

Like, killing one and making another flee

Imo land pteras should be competent enough to maybe fight troodons on their own (even though troo can come out on top fine) or maybe two pteras can put up with something like a land herra or more easily with a beipi

[neon willow]

Ah okay, from the feedback post directly it wasn't clear what you meant when you said you wanted it to be able to fight things other than hypsi and fresh spawns. I wasn't sure if you were picturing something larger, especially when you compared to troodon

[elfin night]

Thought the image and common sense would suffice

[neon willow]

To be honest I'm on my phone and I can't see the image super well.... Lol. And I've long since learned common sense isn't common

Better not to assume because I've seen some wild balance suggestions

[elfin night]

I specified anyway

[neon willow]

Thanks! I do think it would be better for ptera players if they got to actually meaningfully interact with more of the roster

[elfin night]

Yeah

And tbh it is very much what Dondi wants

He doesn’t want ptera remaining in the air completely safe most of the time. Everyone should be forced into survival

[elfin night]

seriously though

Yesterday I managed to kill a juvi cera that at the very end tried to flee towards the water

I had to swim for like 5 meters to drag it back to the shore and that burned easily 50% of my stamina

just so a tiny body can be edible

proving that ptera's stamina, contrary to what everyone says, is terrible...outside of flight

[elfin night]

@rapid flume minmi should

(…unironically)

But yeah I agree with cera

[rapid flume]

maybe I suppose, 99 is just such a big thing, it's massive even compared to 90 or 95

[elfin night]

Oh yeah absolutely

On cera it is so wrong

But tbh I was just goofing around but minmi with 80-90% bleed resist would be good since…well…

It is a small nodosaur than on top of that (being super defensive) shares home with BEIPI, AUSTRO and BARY

Also herra to an extent

[rapid flume]

It'll be really interesting to see how fast they make it

[elfin night]

Not much for sure

Im guessing it’s gonna be super slow and having burrows, hiding and swimming as the main evasive strategies

[hollow topaz]

<@&933486433342222376> #balance-feedback

[worthy steeple]

hmm i see bunch of people started using 99% bleed resistance argument after i posted (#isle-discussion message) a while ago, just want clarify that i didnt do any math, the point was that cera doesnt bleed, i dont know exact bleed res buff 🫣

[dreamy gulch]

@somber glen they can outrun ceratos

[elfin night]

Not if cera is with photo tissue

Which is lame as hell

[dreamy gulch]

i use photo with pachy

its a must on herbis tbh

with tactile

[hasty coyote]

yay minmi

[hasty coyote]

the fact you have to use photo+noct or die on sight to cera with photo/noct because they're faster and much stronger is probably the biggest sign theres many issues at play

[elfin night]

it better have the most cracked defense and bleed resist in the game for its size

[hasty coyote]

one can hope

[elfin night]

yeah

herbi gang!!! Minmi is part of the family

[regal valve]

damn, 4 mins of running

bro do be sprinting

[charred spade]

You know that Carno can't run for long when he's bleeding right?
The goal is to make stamina more manageable, he becomes a long distance athlete, his main attack (charge) consumes more stamina, so he must manage it well during a fight while fighting Bleed.

and due to stamina, it would become a migratory animal btw

[stark knoll]

Carno no longer has a vulnerability to bleed

[charred spade]

Lastly, the nerf to the turn speed during a charge, which is now slower, so animals like Omni and Pachy will have a greater chance of getting out of their Charge.

[charred spade]

Yesterday I was playing Carno, I was chased by 3 Ceras, I received a surprise attack, 3 attacks and one of them made me vomit.

I had to run and they managed to keep up with me well, even though I was faster, I was left with 30%-25% bleed remaining.

So, tf u talking about?

[stark knoll]

Hordetesting

Carno no longer has a vulnerability to bleed

[faint timber]

@charred spade :/ hmm carno is ridiculous

[charred spade]

He's probably still the one with the highest vulnerability to bleeding, I think only the stego surpasses that.

[stark knoll]

It receives the same bleeding damage as anything else now

[charred spade]

Why?

[charred spade]

like?

[faint timber]

50 hp buff and 1 km buff and two nerfs are no different than what we have

[stark knoll]

Wdym?

[faint timber]

I don't like the new carno anyway and this buff back won't change anything, still pathetic carno

[charred spade]

Give me an example, is it the same level as a Cera?

[stark knoll]

Cera has bleed resistance, so no

In the live branch, any attack that deals bleeding damage deals extra bloodloss to carnos. That vulnerability was removed in the hordetest

[regal valve]

The only dino that has bleed resistance in the hordetest is cera iirc

[faint timber]

They say horde test is better... I don't believe it, I played it and died very easily (or maybe I just died because of ping)

[faint timber]

Stego trike are very resistant to bleeding

[charred spade]

He becomes much less vulnerable and becomes a long distance athlete, people have trauma with the old Carno, so any suggestion that resembles the old Carno people will frown upon, so I don't exaggerate too many points to carno.

[faint timber]

😒

are you sure ?

[golden coral]

I don't think they have any resistance, they just have a lot of weight, and thus health and blood

[stark knoll]

They're not resistant, they just have very high blood pools

[faint timber]

I win every time I play carno, the tick count is ahead, we just play this pathetic carno because the producers don't want it.

[charred spade]

Also, I added 90% more stamina to the Carno in this suggestion, so it will definitely perform much better and become a more migratory animal.

[faint timber]

oh maybe 👍🏻

[charred spade]

Removed, so it's not canon correct?

[stark knoll]

I'm not sure what you mean

[faint timber]

Running 2.4 minutes longer will only prolong your death

[golden coral]

@charred spadeIm not entirely sure what you're trying to achieve with the carno, but I've heard its a lot better on the horde test, both in stamina, bleed (no longer extra multipliers or what it was) and so on

[charred spade]

Does this mean that this removal will go to the main EVRIMA?

[stark knoll]

Almost certainly yes

[charred spade]

What the

[golden coral]

Keep in mind if you vomit, you'll take a lot more bleed damage because now you're low on food and water and stam, all of which affects that. Though I'm not sure if it applies only to new bleed dealt, or the old one too.

[faint timber]

I missed the event, what is the new mechanic about bleeding?

[stark knoll]

Hordetesting is to test content that will go to evrima. While this current hordetest isn't over yet, it's likely that carno's current balance changes in the HT will remain

[faint timber]

huh I guess that means cera got more buffs then?

[stark knoll]

It's not a new mechanic, carno no longer takes extra bleeding damage in the hordetest

[golden coral]

Carno used to have extra high multipliers for bleed when moving, like running or trotting, hence you could barely move if you took bleed or you'd die, even more so when weight got lowered

[stark knoll]

This is how it's always worked

[charred spade]

Why are they removing this from the carno? This should balance it...

[golden coral]

@stark knollDo you know/can tell if low food/water and all that affects already dealt bleed or only on new attacks?

[faint timber]

oh i see i guess that's a good buff for her

[stark knoll]

You want carno to stay this vulnerable to bloodloss?

[charred spade]

Yes

[stark knoll]

No clue, sorry

[golden coral]

What with the much lower weight, that'd be a terrible idea to keep carno that weak to bleed

[stark knoll]

Fascinating

[charred spade]

[stark knoll]

Yup, the reason that it had the vulnerability added in the first place was because it was dominating at 1800kg and needed some sort of weakness

Now it's no longer 1800kg, which means its blood pool is also lower, which makes the bleeding vulnerability even more lethal

[faint timber]

Sad... Because of this, the damn Cera dominated the whole map, and next up are the Allosaurs.

[stark knoll]

Cera's domination was already present even when carno was 1800kg. It's a cera issue, not a carno-downsize issue

[faint timber]

The problem is, Carno was actually helping balance the Cera population.
Those were good times too — there were real fights, and playing Carno was fun.

[regal valve]

Small game hunter when the small game bleeds it to death with ease:

[faint timber]

Because we used to have two predators worth playing — Carno and Cera.

Now only Cera is worth playing.

Well, unless horde test Carno turns out to be good enough — which I highly doubt.

[golden coral]

Hopefully the changes on hordetest is going to help with that

I've heard good things, so there's some hope

[faint timber]

The horde test is a mess due to terrible ping, which caused the adult Carno to die. We can't test the game because of the ping, and it's been the same for years, never getting better.

[charred spade]

U mean Indominus Rex

[faint timber]

Oh, I see? Cera, yes, Indominus Rex is taking out everyone.

[regal valve]

Ceratorex

[faint timber]

Cera are monsters that are overconfident, thinking they're immortal.

Just like the arrogant Trike.

[regal valve]

The one on the right is far more deadly

[faint timber]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/855527844670865438/1339097089753481256/IMG_2627.gif

[regal valve]

https://tenor.com/view/allosaurus-ceratosaurus-killing-biting-dinosaurs-gif-17288316

[faint timber]

The latest Cera buff is amazing XD It's so much stronger now!

375-345, bitre force XD, infinite!

Just a little stamina cost and time, but a tiny issue.

[regal valve]

fr, it was supposedly a nerf, but actually made cera even a bigger menace imo

[faint timber]

They also say its speed has decreased during charge (I don't know how many km this is).

[charred spade]

Elder Cera... imagine

45 Km

[faint timber]

Anyone here know how many kg it weighs? 😄

[charred spade]

"Those things out there... aren't animals"

[faint timber]

Hehehe, they made this a problem for us the admins want this.

Aren't we forbidden from reporting leaks?

[charred spade]

WHAT THE WHAT

THIS IS NOT AN ANIMAL, OR SOMETHING NATURAL

[regal valve]

we are?

if it is imma delete

[faint timber]

Yes, delete it immediately, please.

[regal valve]

https://tenor.com/view/no-one-will-ever-know-the-dover-boys-dan-backslide-gif-7869438605843366307

[faint timber]

🥺 👍🏻 -50 kg

Got it, something like that, yes.

[steep gazelle]

Cerato, The playable one that the devs don't know how to nerf without doing buffs xd

[faint timber]

sad pachy players

[steep gazelle]

Pachy It was thrown in the trash a long time ago

[faint timber]

I have a theory: Allosaurus will be so strong that Cera will need 375-345 bite force to match it XD.

[steep gazelle]

I don't doubt it

They'll probably give the same Pin mechanics from Omni to Allo, and that's going to be a huge mess that's going to be made

[faint timber]

Yes, we know that Allosaurus will be strong enough to even take down a T. rex...

It would need to consume a lot of stamina, otherwise, Utah would no longer be played, and everyone would just play Allo instead.

[near basin]

if they do, people are going to whine all day on here

"allos can oneshot midtiers"

[viscid mica]

@wanton edge pachy doesn’t need to be heavier

The rest is fair play but the weight is unnecessary over buff

[wanton edge]

it does, a single pounce eats off far too much of its current health value + it's already hindered by its slow recovery times on all attacks so this would make it last a bit longer fighting against packs.

[steep gazelle]

Pinning is already a big problem in Omni and Troodon alone right now, but when Allo arrives, there will be a flood of feedback about how disgusting this mechanic is.

[near basin]

pinning is not a problem on omni, but it would be on allo

not a problem on troo either

[steep gazelle]

Pin is, grapple is not

Omni can simply come close to you and with a single click kill you, only need to be at least 1kg lighter

I hope there's a rework of this mechanic, at least when Allo comes out and everyone sees how lame this really is.

[near basin]

Don't think pin is a problem on omni and smaller tbh. But would be on allo due to how long midtiers take to grow

[near basin]

We don't know if allo gets pin or not

[steep gazelle]

Allo will have a "pounce" so there is a 99% chance of having a Pin. Because to have the grapple the Pin is included

[near basin]

What makes you think that? Allo's grapple could just be something to inflict bleed

[steep gazelle]

Because it is a set of mechanics

Allo will be able to stick to the bigger things. But what about the smaller things? What do you think will happen?

[near basin]

how big does something have to be in order for allo not to "oneshot" it with pounce?

[steep gazelle]

Probably the same as omni needs

[near basin]

no i mean

if you could shape the balance yourself, what is the biggest thing allo should be able to oneshot with pounce?

[steep gazelle]

If you are lighter and get caught in the pin, you are dead

[steep gazelle]

700kg and below

Heavier than that, would need to actually play the game and press the buttons for an interactive fight

The best way to make the Pin fairer on anything that will have this is to add a way to escape

[near basin]

assuming allo weighs.. how much?

[steep gazelle]

2400

I'm not saying that Allo should be unable to kill things bigger than that weight with the Pin, just that it's just not a hitkill

[knotty stratus]

#balance-feedback message
@twilit juniper that’s fixed in HT

#balance-feedback message lol buffing Carno to 1350 is a joke right ? 💀 yeah right so cerato can use congenital against it

[viscid mica]

Grapple and pin are fine on omni due to its size

[steep gazelle]

Grapple is fine, no problem with that. But the pin? Do you really think that's fair and balanced?

Be 1kg lighter and your death is guaranteed with just 1 click of an Omni xd

[viscid mica]

Yes

You don’t HAVE TO BE ABLE TO FOGHT EVERYTHING

you don’t even HAVE TO BE ABLE TO GO NEAR IT

Somethings you should just avoid

[steep gazelle]

Do you think this is fair even in Allo, which is sure to have this mechanic?

My problem is not with the Pin on the Omni but with the Pin in general, this mechanic is bad and is even more unbalanced than the stego's tail swing

[viscid mica]

No allo is too big for it to be fair against stuff barely lighter than it

[viscid mica]

Stegos tail swing is honestly balanced for what it’s meant to fight

[near basin]

what is new with ht maia?

[steep gazelle]

Maia has had some changes but it's been a long time, in the last update there was nothing about it

[dusky surge]

faster alt-attacks, less speed as juvi, slower swimspeed

its very good in a brawl now using quad

[hasty coyote]

The issue is, Omni is faster than anything smaller than itself. So it’s not like stego where you can just avoid it, Omni comes to you. So you literally have to pack up and leave the moment Omni exists in an area as something small. Even carno is less threatening because carno has less agility and less damage.

Also while you don’t NEED to fight and Omni, why does Omni NEED to 1-shot anything smaller? Because even without pounce, Omni has some high damage bites and the speed and agility to maul most smaller things. All pounce does is make an interesting chase into instant death. Which is less fun for all parties involved, and genuinely oppressive to anything smaller.

[hasty coyote]

So smal tiers deserve to suffer for being small? That’s a great way to entice people into playing them. They’re supposed to be easier to survive as, not harder.

[viscid mica]

thats cap

everything is similar speed or has a escape method

galli is significantly faster

and pt can fly beipi can swim

troodons vanish into grass and are barely slower can easily avoid detection

hypsi is meant to climb and can blind and vanish

dryo is similar speed has better stam and dodge plus is meant to burrow

there is no reason for you to die to omni if you play smart

[viscid mica]

it doesnt need to but it doesnt not need to either

[viscid mica]

only ones suffering are those playing poorly

or to be more correct making a bad choice

[hasty coyote]

Better stam means nothing when Omnis catch up quickly, stay on you, and your dodge charges won’t keep them off you for very long, and Omnis have nearly 3 minutes of stam. Your only hope is burrow, so dryo is now confined to being within 10 meters of its burrow at all times or die on sight to Omnis.

And by “play smart” you mean “never interact with the roster at all ever” then yeah, but the same can be said about anything. Why not make allo faster and pin teno and cera? They have water and teno has jump to escape. And if they don’t want to interact with an allo, they can also go to uninhabited corners of the map.

[hasty coyote]

It doesn’t need pin to insta win. And honestly, the game would be more fun for Omnis and anything smaller if it was gone. Because at least then Omni can interact with smalls rather than being essentially a global deino for anything smaller.

[steep gazelle]

I really wouldn't see a problem if Pin was removed from the game and something new was added to Omni/allo to interact with smaller things, it would be better than a hitkill button

[hasty coyote]

I think if pin was given some form or break out mechanic (so that the only outcomes are not death or 0 stam) pin would be much better. So certain targets who dont have as easy to access escape methods (and arent small enough to get 1-tapped regardless) then they would be given the chance to escape, though they would likely be critically wounded.

or if pounce was given some penalty for missing (like a slight speed decrease for a time, or a second stam cost) that would also help immensely so that omnis cant just spam the 1-shot move constantly

[keen plover]

Punishment for missing + more creatures being able to retaliate depending on location of where they were pounced would be good enough imo

So pounce a galli in the front and it dishes out more damage than you do. Pounce the back and you're safe

[hasty coyote]

eh, that only helps certain ones tbh, like most dinos dont deal that much damage to begin with, let alone enough to fight off an omni. Plus that makes pouncing a gali (and others who will kill you first) an actively bad play. Especially with gali, it can just keep kicking you to death if its going to win the pin and the face tank

[keen plover]

Imo certain dinos should straight up die. Like Galli and possibly austro make sense surviving a pin.

Either galli fights back or its kept the same. I don't think anything else makes sense rn

[hasty coyote]

certain should, like herrera prob should since it can 1-shot an omni back. But others shouldnt, imo dryo shouldnt because it literally holds no advantage against omni and barely has a chance to survive even without pounce.

like if dryo was faster, sure. But its slower, same agility, stam difference doesnt matter, less jump height, and dodge wont save you forever. Only thing it has to save it is to hope to break los, the omni gives up, or to have a burrow within 10 meters (which it doesnt have)

[keen plover]

Dryo is more agile and has dodge. The speed nerf it got never made sense to me anyways lol

I just don't think it should be surviving a pin.

Dryo can run circles around Omni. The main issue is the lack of punishment. Omni players can attempt a pin multiple times

So yeah you can dodge one or two pin attempts but the omni has like 5 other times where it can go for it

[hasty coyote]

the agility difference is minimal, and dodge has a 30 second cd per charge (roughly 15 sec cd) and omni will catch back up before 15 seconds and only has to hit 1 pounce within the nearly 3 minutes of run time (or just land 2 body shots)

[keen plover]

I think what made Omni frustrating to play against was the removal of a punishment.

[keen plover]

Enough time to make it into a forest imo. Once you're in there it's easy to vanish. Never been tracked once I've ran into one

[hasty coyote]

that is a big part, since omni can just spam pounce without a care, since it only need like 10% to actually kill

[worthy steeple]

#balance-feedback message i mean.. pachy is faster and got more stamina i dont see how it cant outrun cera, its honestly just shift+w

the issue is speed mutations, not base speed

[fierce marlin]

#balance-feedback message
"The reason that i dont count It is that It cant rundown or hunt t rex"

Yes, so you want somenthing to Chase down and kill a tyrannosaurus rex Full grown?

[hasty coyote]

There’s less than a 1 kph difference. Cera lands 1 bite, vomit, lands another, and then can land 3 more tail shots before the pachy gets out of range. The moment cera lands 1 bite, the pachy is cooked. Even if it leaves, it’s critically wounded and bleeding HEAVILY, so it can’t just use all its stam to run.

[worthy steeple]

still a difference, pachy can easily avoid ceras, even if cera landed a hit pachy can still run away and survive, omnis and dilos are more of an issue for pachy imo

and yeah, pachy can’t take many hits fighting cera, but it’s the same with cera fighting pachy, 2 hits and its bones are broke which is honestly a death sentence if pachy pack is big enough or if cera gets spotted by any other animal

[slim dragon]

I don't think it's fair to compare the match-up with 1 cera versus a pack of pachys

Cera has fracture resistance so if it's one pachy alone it's moot, there is no match-up

[hasty coyote]

2 hits in a single spot is a break, and each one of those hits the cera returns with a bite, vomit, and another bite or 2x. Body fracture isn’t an issue for cera since it barely uses stam, head fracture is decent, but also requires at minimum a pachy to sacrifice itself or 2 pachies to be taken out of the fight because that cera will trade. Leg fracture, sure it’s impactful, but cera can still charged bite. And yeah, if you got 3-5 pachies, you could feasibly kill a cera, but you still have to earn it. Meanwhile 3 Omnis just pin it.

Speed mutations are def the core of the issue, but pachy still has no reason to be this slow. Being 43 would change no other matchup except helping it run from cera and teno, neither of which it can fight alone.

[slim dragon]

I like the concept of pachy being slow tbh
But it can't be both slow and weak as it is

[hasty coyote]

If pachy was given some serious power for its size, yeah I can see it being slow and even having a lot of the end lag it does now. However, currently all of its power is concentrated in leg fracture, which is too inconsistent to be a survival tool.

[slim dragon]

If The Isle was more arcade, I'd give pachy a "lock-on" feature that allows it to aim easier for specific parts and prioritize their hitbox

[hasty coyote]

I just want a fracture rebalance so leg fracture isnt the end all be all. Nerf leg fracture, buff body fracture, adjust head fracture, and make gaining a fracture stun. Suddenly pachy becomes 10x easier to balance and a much more consistent playable.

[slim dragon]

True
Tiered fractures also

[hasty coyote]

Those would also help immensely

[worthy steeple]

but that’s honestly what i want to avoid, imo pachy has no business fighting those two, it should break and run away at most, i agree with 43km/h pachy but only if they rebalance the fractures

pachy is weak for sure, but fractures are op as hell

but my main issue with pachy was alaways omni/dilo/carno and all of them it can break with one bonk, it really only struggles against fighting packs and i think that’s the core balance issue

i understand a concept of offensive herbivore, but… fractures are just.. i don’t want to be chased by pachy pack that is faster than me and makes my teno absolutely useless with just 2 headbutts

[hasty coyote]

That is fair, but with pachy being as bad as it is, it’s only a threat to the larger dinosaurs in a pack, so it having a slightly higher speed difference will not change anything but make solo pachy more survivable.

And if you’re worried about anything in its tier, even with a speed mutation, pachy ain’t catching up. Plus Omni nearly 1-shots it with damage pounce (or does kill if the pachy doesn’t instantly buck) and dilo 1 bite envenomates or can just face tank it. Even then, pachy has to hit all of them multiple times to kill them, and leg fracture is incredibly inconsistent (if the ram even registers to begin with).

And carno just trades to kill pachy

Like sure a pachy pack is scary, but a pack of literally anything else is 10x scarier

[worthy steeple]

i mean, what i want is pachy to absolutely destroy dilo/omni/carno but suffer in a fight against teno or cera, i’d honestly prefer it not be able to break teno at all, but it is what it is

making it 43km/h won’t help it escape any of its predators, it’s still slower, but will help it hunt ceras and tenos

[hasty coyote]

It already does suffer, all the speed increase would change is make solo pachy more survivable if it runs.

Your issue is with packs, but replace that pack of pachies with a pack of Omnis and you realize pachy isn’t a threat.

[worthy steeple]

but it wont

[hasty coyote]

Or a pack of dilos

[worthy steeple]

anything that can outrun it will still be able to outrun it

[worthy steeple]

pachy is totally a threat, i don’t care about fighting 10 omnis, but when i see 3 pachies im running away

2 bonks and my teno is completely useless

with 41km/h pachy i can at least somewhat avoid its bonks, but 43 is significantly faster

[hasty coyote]

It increases the speed gap by 3x, which is very good for it survival wise, and still pachy won’t be faster than anything already faster.

[worthy steeple]

i mean even current pachy is not getting killed by cera unless it does something stupid, that speed won’t change anything survivability wise

would be good if they rework the fractures and then they can buff pachy as much as they want