balance-feedback-discussion

[hasty coyote]

@cobalt dagger I don't see a single world where stego survives a 1v2 against rexes. 1v1 should be stego favored if it doesnt get ambushed, but if rex gets on the stego's face, its gonna die. If a rex gets on stego's face, its dealing 2x damage and taking reduced damage since its likely getting hit in the tail. So its already questionable if stego can currently deal with a single rex (unless it can stun rex, then its fine).

Let alone add a second rex who can charge the face while the other faces the tail, that stego is cooked. Additionally, stego literally does not have the stam to power swing 2 rexes to death, it takes 6 power swings to the body to kill a rex (slightly over 9k damage), and stego has a max of 10 swings. Which means its gonna have to kill one rex with power swings, and then land 4 power swings and 2 jabs on the second rex to kill it. 2 rexes could literally face tank stego if they shared even a single braincell between them, unless stego gets MAJOR buffs or rex is weak af.

Also, we can't balance every slower thing against groups of faster things. A lone pachy should lose against multiple omnis or dilos, a lone cera should lose to multiple carnos, a lone diablo should lose to multiple allos. While skill diffing the opponents is a possibility, it would more or less require the opponents to have rocks for brains to lose against things they can literally face tank. The only way to balance that would be to make each dino with slightly less speed be 5x stronger than something even slightly faster, because a duo is much, much, much more powerful than 2 solos. And I'm not sure about you, but I would rather carno to not be weaker than a hypsi.

[neon willow]

This was my thoughts as well. Also... Given rex is an apex and Pretty Big, honestly 2 stegos probably could hit the same rex without needing to be on top of each other/in each other's attack range

That's much harder with smaller dinos because their hitbox is smaller

[crimson crater]

stego being stronger than a rex in a 1v1 is reasonable but 2 is pushing it

[hasty coyote]

even then, I have seen stegos manage to group together and play around each other's hitboxes. An apex like rex, whose slow and inagile, stegos could def use their numbers.

[keen plover]

😼 i want stego to have more running stam

stego making more distance in one stam bar 🥰

[neon willow]

Plus, stevo pack limit it 5, whereas rex i strongly suspect will be 2. Not that that stops over packs, of course, but it will help. Besides, I think feeding more than 2 rexes will be very tricky

[hasty coyote]

yeah I'm really hoping sustaining 1 rex will be hard, 2 should be nearly impossible for long unless you constantly fight other apexes, and 3 should be pretty much impossible.

that way you rarely have the situation of lone stego just dying on the spot to 2 rexes.

also preferably have food be an issue for apex herbivores as well by reworking grazing so rexes dont just get run down/starve because every trike just grouped to make a 10 man mega herd. But thats a separate issue,

[neon willow]

Actually, I really hope rex isn't a cannibal. For similar logic to 1800 kg carno. Makes them unable to benefit from their own species corpses (which are so big they'd provide lots of food and diet), and forces them to hunt other things to survive. Mass rex starvation please

Canni kind of works for deino, but I think that's more to do with the fact that there really isn't many other options for deino right now - they're locked to water, fish are both quite small and kind of weird spawning depending on the patch, and most players avoid drinking from places deep enough to hide a big deino

They're forced to eat other deinos because that is the only food available and most know it

[hasty coyote]

deino eating deino is fine because they actually do act as their own population control, since they actually have the threat of starvation.
rex eating rex is not as fine since it allows young ones to easily sustain off each other while also having many other food sources. HOWEVER, I would be fine with juvie rexes not being cannibals while the adults are, since the adult will actually have the threat of starvation so it may actually work for population control like deinos.

[neon willow]

Maybe. Did they change the food values for deino? Back on Spiro, one dead adult deino could easily fill 2 adult deinos stomachs with some spare for juvis

Maybe adult deino is also just a lot rarer because of how many starve, but I'd be worried about something similar with rex. If one dead rex can fill up 2+ other adult rexes, that would make over packing feasible with how many people will want to play rex

[hasty coyote]

I'm unsure if thats still the case, I remember a change targeted at that but I may be misremembering. Either way, deinos actually starve so they are encouraged to kill each other so it does keep their numbers limited. Though I have seen a decent amount of deino pairs, they generally are at very high pop locations like highlands lake or south plains. However, deinos are very different from rex so it may work, or it may backfire and just make pairs-trios of adult rexes too easy. Its hard to tell what will happen.

[viscid mica]

Usually 4/5 adults deinos on any sever at any given time now

[cobalt dagger]

I agree with your assessment on 'how things are' for stego, and I am saying how I think they should be. Currently it does not look good though, we both agree on that.

However, your remark about how we 'can't balance everything against groups of faster things' is an opinion. What if I personally think that a Pachy should survive a group of omnis? However, the method by which it survives could be incredibly variable. As it currently stands though, a skilled pachy can leg break them all with some good dodging and refined hits, but that's a case of skill diff.

I think Pachy will shine a bit better if it stuns on bone break (But not without) and then remove the missed hit animation, or give raptor a missed hit animation to match.
And then, last I checked things can't alt-bite with broken leggs or something, making them really weak after the pachy breaks something, I was playing carno with a friend and a pachy duo wrecked us after getting the leg breaks because we couldn't alt bite and had to stick our backsides against a tree.
I don't see any reason for creatures to be unable to alt bite; I only wish for Pachy to survive, not to kill.

But I definitely disagree against balancing things against groups of faster things. Unless you give them an alternate method to survive. (Ex: Herra climbs, ptera flies, and so therein they can escape, and balancing them vs groups of faster things is unnecessary. )

I don't think Pachy, or the diablo in either case, needs to KILL the things threatening it, but I do think they need 'some way to live.'

Hmm, I'd like to add though that I don't expect escaping a group of raptors to be easy-peasy. But for Herra escaping them can be pretty easy-peasy if he gets up a tree in time and logs. Or a PT who has enough time and stamina to hold space bar and get away. Ptera, Herra, Raptor, and Pachy all grow about the same time, but herra is able to escape so much more easily and able to even kill raptors. Herra has both more options to escape than pachy does, and more options to kill. And it eats fish, which is a very easy food source.

I don't need Pachy to have the ease and options of herra, but I do believe it should have some way to exist in the world along side packs of raptors.

(It currently kinda doesn't, aside of staying on the opposite side of the map, maybe getting a saltwater drinking mut and living in some isolated field. However, I don't want herbi gameplay to be reduced to 'yeah just go to an empty place and eat grass, alone, bored, until someone eventually finds you and kills you because you are helpless.')

[dusky surge]

tbf i do think that the current stam on stego is overkill and should be looked at when rex actually does arrive. 10% stam for any attack is WILD

[cobalt dagger]

I had an idea actually

So given the situation with pachy, or stego, one has to wonder HOW would they survive? In their current state they wouldn't.

That's why we gotta put our thinking caps on and think of a way for them to live... Now for stego I haven't thought of it, but I did think of a lovely idea for Pachy.

[hasty coyote]

their way to live is to avoid the threat before it becomes a problem. Either stay vigilant and run with a large head start when you see them in the distance, or hide if you lack a group.

Because I genuinely think its impossible for every dino to survive against a group of faster dinos. Some have methods, like jumping on a rock or swimming, but not every dino is given such luxuries, especially the larger ones. Diablo for instance is built entirely on fighting anything it can't run from, so its options are to try and avoid the allos or hope you can find terrain. If diablo was strong enough to take on 2 allos, allos would either be about as strong as current cera or diablo would be as strong as current stego. Which then also means that cera may need major nerfs if its faster than allo, or major buffs if its slower. This would continue for pretty much the entire roster until every dino has MAJOR power diffs depending on how many dinos have speeds between them.

For instance, carno would end up like 1/64th the strength of cera: carno has to be 1/2 the strength of dilo, dilo 1/2 maia, maia 1/2 omni, omni 1/2 troodon, troodon 1/2 pachy, pachy 1/2 teno, teno 1/2 cera. If we were to say half the dinos in the game have "escape methods", dinos would still only have like 5 others they can interact with without just being outsped or losing HORRIBLY.

Plus, if slower dinos were designed to fight 2 dinos who are faster, how would solo carnivores ever survive? Anything they can catch will easily maul them, and they can't catch anything faster unless every carnivore is given an ambush ability.

[cobalt dagger]

In real life, mountain goats live successfully by living on mountains and cliffsides. What if we reduces pachy's fall damage by a lot? Not as much as herra, but enough that it could live in an area with a lot of vertical drops, and escape raptors by just hopping down cliffsides the raptors themselves would take damage from. I bet that would do the trick. Make sure it can't apply knockback force to slower things like cera, and let it send faster things like raptors flying off the cliffside if they try to engage in pachy's environment.

[hasty coyote]

thats why I think having the "fight of flight" options generally being balanced around 1v1s is the best for the game in general. Because otherwise you are forcing carnivores to group up or starve, while herbivores can chill without a care in the world. Its just the inverse of having carnivores outspeed and outdamage herbies

[cobalt dagger]

The first recommendation to me is too much similar to the 'saltwater drinking mutation in an empty isolated field' thing. The best way to 'hide' in the isle is to simply never come near anyone ever. Also, running with a long headstart only helps if Pachy has more stamina, which I am not sure if it does.

'I genuinely think it's impossible for everything to survive groups of faster dinos.' Right now, yes. If you were to ask my opinion, I would say it's time to put our thinking caps on and THINK of a way. The way to survive doesn't have to be certain, it doesn't have to be wildly successful, it might only be a 30% or 50% chance to work, and it doesn't have to involve one-shotting the threat - but I want to see SOME way exist. I understand you disagree, and that's alright, but myself personally, I would like all things to have a 'way to survive' encounters.
Hiding is a method to live but VERY BORING and not viable for things like stego. I can forgive 'just hide' on pachy but not on stego. It's too big for that. I think hiding should still be considered valid, if the creature is built properly to do so. Like hyspi. But stego is not built for that.

'Result in major power diffs' - We already have 'em, the game is alright slightly balanced in that direction. There are already existing massive power differences, where baby trikes one-shot adult troodons. Personally I don't mind them but I do feel that babies shouldn't have the same success at living as adults. I also feel that grow time matters. Myself, personally, I feel like a carno should have an easier time killing a pachy because he grows longer. And while a troodon doesn't grow longer than trike, a fresh-spawn trike is younger than an adult troodon and I would like to see the adult troodon have the upper hand because of this. But this has more to do with scaling power per growth.

Carno does not need to be 1/64th the strength of cera; I would say instead, maybe one half. But cera is already there. Cera and carno's match up feels fine right now; 1 is unfair for the carno, 2 is fair fight, 3 kills the cera, not counting skill diff.

But as for carno and dilo, there is a grow difference there, and I did forget to mention that mattered to me. I feel strongly that grow difference should have a say too.

Carno and dilo should be a fair chance for the dilo to escape or the carno to catch it, in my opinion. Same for carno and raptor.

Teno isn't really that much faster than cera at all but it does get to walk them down. However, because of teno's backward-facing attacks and the fact that it needs it's stamina to do it's stronger attacks, teno doesn't really have the same upper-hand if it sprints out every last drop of stamina it had. Then it can only use claw attacks and the cera can still make it vomit or use charge bites.

In this situation, even though cera is a bit slower, he can still run away better.

'Things will either get outsped or loose horribly'

Raptors don't loose horribly vs diablo but still get wrecked by it, and this is fine. Raptor Vs Diablo matchup is fine in my book.

Things don't need guaranteed chances to live. they just need 'some way to live.'

Currently, a Pachy seen by 8 raptors, does not have that. NO way to live. NO chance. And stego is headed on the same path. In their current kits and abilities, yes, they don't stand a chance, and I am proposing, that I would like us to think of some way for them to stand a chance. To think of some way to change their kits or abilities, not so that pachy can murder 8 raptors, but so that Pachy can survive. (And I think improving Pachy's fall resist is perfect; Then the way to live becomes 'Pachy should stay in it's evironment, near cliffs and rocks' as much as deino should stay in the water so a stego doesn't kill it. Environmental preference works for me.)

[eager saddle]

I mean….why should a pachy survive? Wouldn’t taking down a few raptors with it be enough?

[dusky surge]

yea imma be honest EIGHT raptors? even apexes would be in hot water against that, let alone a single pachy lol

the best pachy can do is position itself in a place where raptors struggle to reach it consistently

get on a rock and punt off the attackers

[worthy steeple]

hm, i think i see what they mean

the best thing herbivore can do to survive is not fight at all and i’d say every playable and especially herbivores have their own ways to run away/swim away, or they’re too strong to engage the fight an easily win

the only exception is pachy and sub maia on HT

pachy is too slow, too weak, too inconsistent, it can’t even swim away, because it’s swimming speed is the worst in the game

so i can see the reason to complain lol

[cobalt dagger]

It's a survival game, not a fighting game. Or at least that's how it's classified. Fighting is part of the survival, but not always.

If Pachy is forbidden to survive, then why is Herra permitted? Apexes are in in Hot water when 8 raptors see it, but Herra is safer than anyone else in it's tree, and even may see the raptors as prey. Yet the apexes take longer to grow?

To be fair, I would say that apexes usually 1 shot raptors, and so the fight isn't as lop-sided as it looks, as the trike or rex may will end a raptor's life, and the raptors do indeed take their life in risk when they pick that fight. And that is how it should be.

But for Pachy, I would like to again say, let's stop thinking about how Pachy can kill the raptors, and just think about how Pachy can survive. Yes, in Pachy's current state, it CANNOT survive 8 raptors. And if it were balanced to my liking, it would maybe only have a 20% chance to live against that many, between equal skill, so I am not implying I want Pachy (Or anything else for that matter) have things be easy-peasy.

Generally speaking I'd also like growth time to impact this a lot too, which a younger pachy having much less survival chance against a solo raptor. And seeing as a younger pachy can be pinned, this is already achieved.

I would like to recommend again buffing Pachy's fall resist so it can survive a fall that would legbreak a raptor, let it live in an environment with cliffs and ledges and stuff. It would not become invincible, if just two raptors pounced it it would get pinned. But if 8 raptors saw it, and it saw them first, it could hop off the cliff they couldn't quite follow. Then again, the raptors might find a new way down, but it adds 'some way' to live, even if it's not much.

And some way to live is what I'd like to see, especially between two creatures of the same grow time.

There are two things people like to play something for - KILLING power, and LIVING power.

Galli has unquestioned LIVING power. It can run away from anyone and anything. Ptera too.
Stego is strong, but it only has 'killing' power against things slower than it: Killing power being, the power or ability of the dino in question to kill something desperately trying to escape, and live, by whatever means it has. Your ability to force your will 'for them to die' over their will for themselves to live.

Carno, and herra, both have fantastic killing power, and fantastic living power.

[eager saddle]

Gotta give me a hot minute to read that mate

And think it through

[cobalt dagger]

Pachy has to do so much more than a herra does to kill a single raptor; a pachy must get an ambush on a solo raptor, as they both would, but the pachy would need to land more hits, and could easily take more damage, and wouldn't get the job done near as fast as a herra. Herra even makes shorter work of other pachy than pachy does.

So the herra has superior killing power.
But also superior living power, as so many times another creature would die - 3 carnos, 8 raptors, 4 ceras, whatever - the herra can be safe in it's tree. It even gets to eat fish.

Now, raptor has superior killing power to herra. Herra can make short work of raptor and pachy and galli but not of stego or diablo. Raptors are much better suited to that prey - But raptors have less living power, as they cannot eat fish and they cannot climb trees for safety from carnos or dilos.

When something has both signifigant killing power and living power, THAT is when people start playing a LOT of it.

Like when Spiro had 50 deino at any given time.
Or like how many cera we have right now.
Or like Carno before Cera was added.

We even still have a lot of herra.

And diablos, because their ability to fight stuff gives them pretty good living power too, even if they pay a bit of killing power for it.

So the reason I mention all this...

In my opinion, things that take longer to grow should have more living power and killing power. Between two creatures of the same growth, the slower one's desire to live should take priority over the faster one's desire to kill, in a 1 v 1. Say a galli is attacking a pachy, as a 1 v 1, pachy should have the upper hand. (And I believe it does.)

Currently, the game is mostly balanced this way too. Most slower things are leaning towards being stronger. (Note carno changes and how teno and carno currently interact.) Herra too, has an easier life but less killing potential than raptor does.

If something cannot live, people will not play it.
If something can live but can't kill, some people will play it.
If something can both live and kill, many people will play it.

My goal isn't to get all creatures into the last option, but to get everyone into the middle option and some into the last option.

[eager saddle]

1. Herra is “allowed” to survive because it just happens to be in a favorable position. Same with stego. If a stego sees a pack of raptors, it can literally camp any form of terrain and increase its survival chance significantly. Because it packs a punch, you know, like an apex. The raptors won’t win that without significant effort. If a herra gets caught off guard on the ground after a kill, it has almost 0% to survive either. And it shouldn’t because it is out of its comfort zone. You already know this because you flawlessly point this out in the paragraph after.
2. Fair enough, it would be slightly weird for the pack hunter (yes I know people hate that phrase) to lose against a severely outnumbered pachy. Same as the young pachy vs young raptor one, tho that shouldn’t be as lopsided either if it’s a 1v1
3. The fall resist thing is fine, but I am slightly worried it will end up just jumping off a cliff when getting pounced, surviving and killing pouncing raptor. I already think it’s a stupid interaction due to the falling animal literally bearing the impact of the fall, but I can’t help but wonder if increasing fall resist would encourage that weird interaction. If not, it sounds like a decent solution.

BROTHER THE ESSAYS, LET ME CATCH UP

[cobalt dagger]

Alright, I'll go eat some food and do some other stuff then

I might not respond more tonight though, because of doing life things.

[dusky surge]

https://youtu.be/zpemKbWUqW0

[eager saddle]

I shouldn’t be doing this at 4am yet here I am😭

[eager saddle]

Istg this is what people went through with socrates

[dusky surge]

at least gallus isn't aggressively wrong all the time

actually making genuinely good points

[eager saddle]

Compared to whom? Socrates?

[eager saddle]

True, that’s why I am taking a while (and rapdex apparently)

[dusky surge]

depends which socrates

because there was an isle user of a similar name and he was the WORST

[hasty coyote]

yes the best way is to just never interact, but thats the case regardless. You can still spot people in the distance before they get close and run to the forest to break line of sight and lose them. And for pachy in particular, it has nearly 4 minutes of stam, so its fine.

I have given you ways to survive, abuse good terrain, run before they get close, and for the larger dinos who don't get those options as much, preferably limit the amount of them that are sustainable in a group. I want things to have ways to survive encounters, but the changes necessary to make certain dinos survive while outnumbered and caught unaware would make the game worse for others. For instance, if stego was able to survive 2 rexes in a fight, then what about trike? Trike would have to survive 2 stegos. Which means that trike would be able to survive 4 rexes. Additionally, stegos would be able to absolutely destroy allos. So some of the most iconic matchups would just be null and void. If you REALLY want stego to survive 2 rexes heres the easiest solution: make 2 rexes trigger the mixpack scent. Then stego can just avoid the 2 rexes and never have to get in range for them to strike.

If you think what we have now are major power diffs, then your idea to make dinos able to fight off MULTIPLE others of a similar tier would make catastrophic power differences. Like any dino would only be able to interact with like 5 dinos of the whole roster. And while growth should be generally correlate to power, it isnt directly tied. Otherwise dinos would have to wait 45 minutes of growth just to be as strong as troodon, or troodons would just spawn full grown, omnis would take longer to grow so everything else would also take longer to get omni strength, and if we continue that chart, then apexes would take literal DAYS to grow. Tho I agree the apexes need to have less power while growing so you don't end up with trike essentially becoming a diablo after an hour and a half lol.

[eager saddle]

Taking all that above into consideration (I read it, I just am too tired to summarize, I am sorry), the problem with “longer grow= more killing power and living power” is that it also ignores some niches. Omni is one of the best stego hunters in the game (iirc, been a while since I checked) but definitely does not equate to stego’s growth time. Yes if the stego is good and knows what it’s doing you will survive most raptor pack encounters but it is still a very good contender. Some dinos will kill things bigger than itself and that’s fine. I’m not saying pachy doesn’t need some kind of fix because it absolutely does, but in the end, taking down more raptors is not only taking away more predators giving you a chance to survive but if you DON’T survive, you made the place to regrow just a bit safer for yourself (and others).

[eager saddle]

I mean all I can say to that is that that is a fair take and assumption that fits with the behavior I see from players.

TODAY IS ESSAY DAY

[eager saddle]

The actual philosopher

[hasty coyote]

also, what your saying about grow time difference literally contradicts the rex v stego argument. Rex will def take longer to grow than stego (similar to trike) so it should be fine that rex is able to 1v1 stego. Growtime should come secondary to balance at fg, since you can easily make something take shorter/longer time to grow.

However, I agree most the dinos I pointed out there ave fair 1v1s, but you were saying to balance around 1v2s, and in 1v2s those dinos lose HARD in those matchups, and would need significant buffs to survive.

You're still looking at the small picture with the changes you are proposing. If you change diablo to 1v2 allos, then that means the gap between diablo and allo grows, but then allo needs balance around cera which causes the diablo/omni gap to grow more, and so does cera and teno, and so does teno and pachy, and so does pachy and omni. That power gap will grow to the point that omni v teno after your changes would feel like omni v diablo now. And thats with omni being DESIGNED around pack hunting to punch above their weight class. What about the dinos who arent designed to punch above or group up much like dilo? Or better yet, what happens when the slower dinos have 2 members? The idea is solid on paper, but it will not work in practice.

[eager saddle]

I am going to sleep cuse I can barely keep my eyes open and type. But I am glad you put effort and thought into your explanations @cobalt dagger and I respect you for that. (Feel free to react to it so I can see this in the morning😅)

[dusky surge]

to be fair, dibble probably SHOULD be able to 1v2 allos, because atm it's kinda gonna get screwed

its damage numbers are WAY too low and 2 allos can just grab and kill, so having dibble being able to consistently defend itself would be nice

[hasty coyote]

also even that isnt true, it has been a while since this (was spiro days), but I have survived 1v5-6 as pachy v omnis. I ran into them in the forest, tried to fight off 1 or 2, then realized there was so many more. So I just ran through the forest, zigging and zagging. and hid in a bush. They tried to track me and almost found me, but I managed to hide and avoid them. While this isnt as easy for larger dinos, there shouldnt be as many larger dinos. Like 1 adult rex should be an uncommon sight, let alone 2 in a group.

[hasty coyote]

same can be said about pachy and dilos v omnis, but tbh grapple is just an unfun mechanic that is basically a free win. And I'm HOPING it isnt just copy-pasted onto allo

[dusky surge]

hot take, as of the HT, maia far outclasses dibble as a "mid-tier herbi" it isn't funny

dibble just doesn't do the damage worthy of those horns, to the point that even maia can outdamage it with its stomp attack pretty consistently

if you play maia in HT, once you get past the horrible juvi stage, you become one of the game's strongest adult playables in all honesty

all of its alt-bites in BOTH stances have been made more usable and fast. its quad stance is now a GOD of CC and ironically can stun/knockdown with said alts while dibble CAN'T. It also can now stance swap while being attacked, all on top of the benefits it already had like great biped speed and the ability to gain accel/quad by simply swapping stance

maia's quad stance is kind of already a better dibble. better agility, better alt-attacks, a consistent combo tool, standing LMB does knockdowns (unlike dibble's)

it's only 1km/hr slower than dibble too

[hasty coyote]

the fact herrera can survive while the apexes are in a risky position is a good thing imo. It gives actual reason to play the smalls. They have much more power over what they decide to or not to fight, while the apexes have to fight what comes to them but stand a better chance in the fight. Again, as I stated before, pachy can survive 8 omnis if it plays well, a diablo does not have such luxury.

[hasty coyote]

diablo does have the advantage of having practically 0 stam costs, but it could def use a damage buff, especially on the heavy attack.

[dusky surge]

true, fair

but tact endurance already exists and maia's buffs have REALLY boosted its brawling

my biggest complaint with dibble is def the damage tho

its running knockdown does so little damage for no goddamn reason

[hasty coyote]

I'd have to see how allo ends up before I'd like any diablo buffs tho tbh, otherwise its gonna be even easier to go cow tipping against stegos

like 2 good diablos will shred a mediocre stego in seconds

I have done it many times

[solid wyvern]

If you see 2 rexes as stego - better to hide

[dusky surge]

the stegosaurus fears the recession

it has a stock portfolio to upkeep

[solid wyvern]

T9 issues

[solid wyvern]

If you want fall damage resist for pachy - use enlarged meniscus mut. Underrated mutation. Also devs explicitly said that pachy missing certain things in it's kit so it will have more tools for fight/survival later

[spiral kindle]

Not even 2

1 rex can destroy a stego

Crush bite does 2900 dmg

5800 dmg to the head

To the stego

[dusky surge]

Who says crush can headshot

And also that's just godawful balance so they really shouldn't do that lol

Crush is more of a grab/pin move, which traditionally can't headshot

[solid wyvern]

Source?

[spiral kindle]

Literally every attack in the game can headshot

Against trike u don't want to headshot cause dmg reduction

[dusky surge]

it'll likely work like lunge and pounce tho

[solid wyvern]

Pin&pounce can't headshot

Same for lunge

[dusky surge]

also those stats aren't proving much of anything lol

[spiral kindle]

the pin does 100 dmg]

[spiral kindle]

Why do u say that?

[solid wyvern]

Yeah but it ins't locational. So the crush also won't be locational

[dusky surge]

because we got trike's stats early and they were also entirely inaccurate

and additionally, if rex DOES end up being THAT good at killing stego, either rex is getting nerfed or stego is getting buffed

we've already seen it this HT when trike's trot was nerfed due to it being extremely good at trotting down stegs

[spiral kindle]

Also 10% stam cost is way too little

It should be 20

[dusky surge]

10% stamcost on what lol

[spiral kindle]

Idk if that was the main reason but yeah , Those values could change but expect that to release on HT launch with those stats

[spiral kindle]

Can you not read

[dusky surge]

read literally what you just said that out of the blue

[spiral kindle]

No i didn't

[spiral kindle]

10% stam cost

[dusky surge]

i dont think anything should cost 20% stam. stego already has that problem and it sucks

[spiral kindle]

Running power swing costs 20%

Reg power swing is 10%

And since rex can run while doing it 10% is way too little and it's a front facing attack , It should be 20%

[dusky surge]

running power swing costs 15%. it's also way too much

[vale brook]

if trike didn't release with pre release stats why would rex

[spiral kindle]

Idk don't ask me i just have the screenshot of what someone found in the files

[dusky surge]

if it costs 10% a damage tick, i think it'll be fine lol

that's insane drain

[spiral kindle]

Nah

If u hit that crush bite u literally kill anything

Except from a Trike

[dusky surge]

based on what evidence

[spiral kindle]

It should cost alot

[dusky surge]

i doubt rex can even pin a trike

so it wouldn't matter

[spiral kindle]

2900dmg cc attack and combo that up with other attacks

[spiral kindle]

It won't since Trike weighs more

That's why i said except from a trike

Can you not read

[dusky surge]

the numbers we established mean nothing because they're most likely placeholders like trikes were lmao

[spiral kindle]

Maybe but this is all we know

[dusky surge]

yes so let's not act like it's concretely anything

[spiral kindle]

Yeah for sure

Rex is most likely just gonna be a monster

[solid wyvern]

What stam cost for normal swing?

[dusky surge]

the alt-swing costs 5%

[spiral kindle]

I believe it's 5%

[faint swan]

Buff carno

[dusky surge]

they did

on HT, carno has been buffed several times over

[vale brook]

and the buffs were so based

[dusky surge]

all of them were buffs carno actually NEEDED

honestly now all it needs is a more consistent charge and a better diet imho

[vale brook]

goat on lines please and thank you

[dusky surge]

or taco

[vale brook]

that too

[dusky surge]

i think they need to ease up on its diet. specialist dinosaurs like that can't afford to have such a restrictive diet when their prey pool is already quite limited

[spiral kindle]

Yeah the carno buffs are amazing

Faster growth time is just sweet

[cobalt dagger]

'for stego to survive rex, trike would have to survive 4 stegos'

The key here is the same key that has teno unable to viably fight when it chases down a cera. Make use of backwards-facing attacks, especially ones that force you to be still while using them, on the stego. Meanwhile, mainain the trike's ability to facetank effectively, in fact trike should probably be the best face-tanker in the whole game. The creature's whole body is just built to facetank, practically. Consider giving trike more armor for facing things or some better way to manuver the way diablo can.
I agree abusing terrain is a method of survival, and trike abusing terrain to force a stego duo to tail-tank-face-tank it seems like the right way to go. Trike might not need that huge of a stat boost if we make it similar to how cera and teno interact.

I agree that making trike's stats four-times of stego's isn't the right way to go. But I don't believe that it's impossible to balance this. I believe we can find some properly balanced solution where all creature can merely 'live,' escape somehow. Bleed is good at this too, some things like carno bleed extra hard when sprinting, specifically so solo raptors can apply bleed and then run for their lives and the carno has to choose between sitting to heal the bleed, or chasing and taking huge bleed damage. I don't want to make stego too weak to bleed because of raptors, but perhaps if trike's bleed was serious (and it looks like it should be, with those two horns!) then it could hit and punish stegos for chasing it. So we could adjust the numbers on their bleeding, basically.

[cobalt dagger]

'Herra is allowed to survive because it's in a favorable position'
I know no position that will save some creatures. But I would like that to change.

For pachy leaping to kill raptors latched to it's side: The fact that latched raptors take fall damage should be removed and it seems like a fine solution to me.

'It's weird for a pack hunter to loose to a solo pachy'
I don't want the pachy to kill them, I want it to be able to escape with the odds being a bit against it. A solo galli, who grows for the same time as pachy and raptor, and who is faced with a group of 8 'pack hunter raptors,' can escape by being aware and just, running away. Simple as that. A pachy jumping off a cliff and using it's superior fall resist only 'wins' as much as that galli does.

I believe there are other likewise decent solutions, if only we have time to think of them.

[crimson crater]

what does herrera and pachy have to do with anything?

[spiral kindle]

4 stegos?

Trike gets clapped by 2 stegos

[cobalt dagger]

'Dinos waiting 45 minutes to be as strong as a troodon'

It's important to take into consideration the abilities of a creature. Giving something the upper hand doesn't always have to mean it has the same raw stats by numbers. I DO think that creatures should have to grow for 45 minutes before having the UPPER HAND on a troodon. But they don't need to grow that long to have better stats. Troodon's venom, pounce, speed, agility, these are all features that make up for some of it's bad numbers. A baby trike doesn't need to have troodon's stats for 45 minutes, it only needs to not one-shot troodon for 45 minutes, and that alone is far, far more than enough for troodon to be very lethal. I don't mind the baby trike applying considerable bleed though and making the troodon have to go sit down after being hit.

Or maybe troodon is due for a buff - Why does a raptor, who grows for the same time as a troodon, get to 1-shot pin freshspawn trike, but a troodon who grows for the same time and who is older than the baby trike gets oneshot by it? Troodon's abilities do not compensate; troodon does not have increased living power to raptor (troodon struggles to kill boars, food is HARDER and not easier) and troodon certainly doesn't have increased killing power over raptor.
So rather than have baby trikes nerfed I'd rather see troodon's buffed, specifically in how many hits they can tank. Maybe something similar to BOB'S velociraptor's 'sturdy' or something, but that does feel a bit too powerful. Still, some kind of buff seems deeply warranted.

'The problem with longer grow = power' is that it ignores niches and raptor is one of the best stego killers' (Sorry for these bad quotes that aren't exact, discord won't let me copy the text and I don't wanna write it out perfectly when I can just summarize it)

I never heard of omni being a good stego killer, I always thought cera was famous for that.
But I agree that there are niches, some things will kill some things better than others. Or, at least be more dangerous to them. But the thing about omni, it kills ANYTHING effectively if it has numbers. With it's lovely new bite while latched ability and pounce to pin and all that. I see Omni as a fantastic generalist. If anything omni seems more suited to trike killing though, as Trike has NO flank defense or backwards facing attacks, terrible turn radius, slow alt attack, and no strafe or back-up like diablo.

Well anyway. I don't mind some things being good killers. For example, herra is way, way, way better at killing a raptor than a teno. It's not that teno CANT or that teno doesn't have the stats. It's that teno can't crouch or move silently and can't catch a raptor, so it depends on the solo raptor being dumb enough to try it.
Herra though... Herra can silently camp your food, your water spot, your nest, wait for the moment, one-shot your raptor from above. And this is all in spite of the fact that teno takes longer to grow than omni or herra!

But I am okay with this because Omni can still live. How? Look up, don't go around trees in the hotspot, be cautious and aware. The Omni has a chance to live! And that's what I want.
I actually would love there to be a 'rock paper scissors' set up, where everything has a counter and everything counters something in a 1 v1 situation. Only, I don't want 'get countered' to be 'you die without a chance,' I want the 'get countered' to be 'you better run away from this guy, it's not your fight.'

For things that run faster, use bleed to slow down the faster thing or force it to face the consequences of bleeding, that's exactly why carno bleeds so hard. Even though carno grows longer than omni and is bigger, it was given a low bleed resist simply so that solo omnis would have 'some way to live', some tiny chance to stay alive. Even if the odds are against them - and with something that grows longer, I feel that is warranted, for the odds to be against them - having some way to live I believe should be given to all creatures for balancing reasons. Else like pachy, they simply won't be played hardly at all, and I can't blame anyone. Why would I play the creature who takes longer to grow yet has fewer options, when I could play herra, who takes less time to grow and currently has all the options to live it could ask for?

[crimson crater]

actually ambushing requires a ton of setup and time investment, not to mention that herrera can’t just hunt whenever it feels like it, all you can do is hope and pray that the raptor comes right under your tree and stands completely still, teno on the other hand can pretty easily dissemble an omni pack

[dusky surge]

herrera is very much oversold as "OP". The most broken thing about it is its ground movespeed, but unless you're standing perfectly still under a specific tree as a solo, you're basically safe

[cobalt dagger]

'Taking down more raptors is not only taking away predators but makes it safer for you'

Safer for you and who? I feel so lonely when I play anything that isn't popular. Otherwise, it makes carnivores smaller, as they probably just pick raptor again, or maybe switch to deino. For example, in the hordetest, killing a FG cera or trike only makes that cera or trike smaller, as people will continue to play those species because they are popular.
I suppose pachy has the option to grow faster but it will just find history will repeat itself, and from what I understand the game wants to go in the direction of prioritizing survival over fighting. From what I understand, healing rate was greatly slowed so that people would think carefully before starting a fight. I don't think it worked. But I think when devs add some benefit to prolonged survival past adulthood, such as extra mutations or something, I believe that will make people more motivated to live in the way they want for their game's style.

Personally I enjoy surviving, particularly when my survival isn't assured. I like surviving when the world is out to kill me. I like surviving when my skill is what decides if I live or not. Consequentially, some dinos end up too easy for me and I get bored, while others, the only way to confidently survive is 'be herbi, get saltwater drinking mut, graze in random field on corner of map or island that no one goes to,' and that gets boring too. Dreadfully. Boring. I don't like hiding as a 'survival' mechanic because it encourages that. I prefer hiding as a survival mechanic on carnivores (note: rex, deino) because they MUST have action, hunting, to live. But on an herbi, it gets real boring real fast, because most of them can't crouch and so the best way to 'hide' is to simply be in the most empty place of the map.

I think hiding should be used for anything small, including babies, and some species should be built for it. But not all species.

Trike and stego are not creatures who I expect to live by hiding as adults. Pachy I can say, sure, pachy could have a hiding niche. In fact with jumping out and leg-breaking maybe pachy is a great cannidate for that. But stego and trike, no.

[hasty coyote]

@cobalt dagger I genuinely can’t continue the argument because I’m about to pass out but I can at least give you this:

what you want is an entire rework of the balance of this game as a whole. And that’s something I can not agree with, as I believe the current balance is fine (for the most part minus a few issues with specific playables) and a rebalance could easily make things worse. And if you are not wanting a complete rebalance, then I genuinely don’t understand what you want other than certain dinos to be what I would consider op. Either way, we disagree on a fundamental level and I don’t think this argument is really gonna go anywhere.

[cobalt dagger]

I've played a fair bit of herra, hang around some food. Someone will come eat it.

For the teno though - Sure you can destroy an omni pack, if it attacks you. Maybe you get the jump on one and kill him but your footsteps are not silent, easy but not as easy as herra.
I calculate killing power based on your ability to kill something, when it's trying it's hardest to get away and simply 'live.' Teno can destroy omnis who attack,. but if they flee for their lives, Teno does not have 'killing power' over them. Not when fleeing is their first reaction.

[crimson crater]

nobody falls for the classic 20 bodies in 1 spot bait, besides ai is so abundant that you don’t need to scavange

99% of the time if anything comes by its usually ceras who you can’t do anything against

[cobalt dagger]

Uh no, actually, I don't want a rework of the whole game. I've made several mentions of fairly minute changes that don't impact actual stats that severely, and gave examples of how seemingly small differences like backwards facing attacks (teno vs cera) really impacts how speed allows them to kill something or not.

I guess if you think it's OP for, say, pachy to have increased fall resistance, that is fine, you can have that opinion. But I wouldn't consider giving pachy increased fall resistance + Making sure raptors don't die to fall damage when latched onto a falling target, to be a giant mega balancing overhaul.

I believe a similar and likely simple change can help stego too.

[dusky surge]

i do like mountain goat pachy conceptually

always felt it'd fit as a highlands animal

also i think highlands should have less bushes and more rocky outcroves like on early gateway too

[cobalt dagger]

All the raptors and ceras I killed DID fall for that, though.

Otherwise, I recommend this; kill 3, then guard a new body.

I was even in highlands, it was pretty empty during the time, I heard some dilos calling, baby ones, so I killed a goat (something on their diet) and climbed the tree, lo and behold the smelled it and came and I killed them.

[dusky surge]

To be fair man, a lot of kills in this game literally fall down to skill issue

[crimson crater]

that’s kinda on them though, dying to a teno as an omni isn’t

[dusky surge]

It's why I find the "1v1 norden" argument absurd, because in the actual game setting, you WILL find someone that's extremely easy to hunt because they fall for simple baits and traps

[cobalt dagger]

No, as an omni you can absolutely run away from a teno. If you don't run away from the teno, it's on you.

Same thing for a cera who died to a stego.

[dusky surge]

dying to a teno is as on the omni as dying to a herrera is ngl

[crimson crater]

as an omni you also have the option to look up and use this neat thing called critical thinking

[dusky surge]

as you could with the teno

[cobalt dagger]

You can use that engaging the teno too, and think 'wow it could wreck me'

[dusky surge]

its the same scenario

[cobalt dagger]

Especially if you get good at reading your opponent

[dusky surge]

different critters

[crimson crater]

yea tho with herrera you can engage with it and win if you know where it is

[cobalt dagger]

Win as in... Kill it? Or escape it?

[dusky surge]

true, you can also do that with teno tho tbh

[crimson crater]

win as in kill it

[cobalt dagger]

If you mean kill it - As a herra I don't pounce raptors who know where I am. In that situation, your raptor can kill the herra, but it is the herra's choice to come down for the pounce. If you camp the tree, the herra can log.

In that situation, omni waiting for the herra to pounce is like the teno waiting for the omni to attack.

[crimson crater]

yea because most stare up at you and start jumping in the air 3 calling, what you need to do in order to trick them is act unaware

[cobalt dagger]

It's true raptor can definitely kill a herra, but it is the herra and not the omni who has the killing power, when herra is in a tree. When herra is in an open field, it's overtly on the side of the raptor who can pin it.

[cobalt dagger]

That depends on the herra. I've seen them act unaware, too, and not pounced. I've actually never been killed by an omni who tricked me into pouncing them.

Maybe some day though. But it hasn't happened yet.

You can see when someone looks at you, since they, well, look up.

[crimson crater]

not really, there’s no way for sure to know

[cobalt dagger]

No, they literally like, turn their heads up. Like, their chin and all, will be up.

They would need to animation lock via eating to prevent that.

Tenos and stuff used to graze to animation-lock their heads so opponents couldn't tell where they were looking.

I suppose if the raptor sees you before you see it...

Then you wouldn't see it look at you because you didn't see it.

[crimson crater]

just press q to sniff to start an animation, they won’t tell that way.
with animation lock you can still see them in the edges of your FOV, here’s an example

[cobalt dagger]

Ohh, sniffing, that's a good idea. Didn't think of that one.

[hasty coyote]

I think the pachy change is fine, my issue is when you expand that list past stuff like pachy who can just get a gimmick. Stuff like stego and Diablo don’t really have much room for tools to be given to them, so the only option is to give them combat buffs, which I highly disagree with.

[cobalt dagger]

Then again. I like to watch things for a good while before I pounce them, unless they're swimming. Maybe that's why. I'll see that video in just a bit.

[cobalt dagger]

Okay, so diablo has all that fancy strafing. That feels like it could be used fantastically to dodge. Diablo might be OK if it can do that long enough for the rex to run out of stam.

Stego: We gotta look at how it positions itself, I think. And maybe remove the extra head damage taken. Or maybe look at how hard rex bleeds? If rex bleeds hard, then many creatures may be able to do a hit-and-run strategy because the rex would bleed too hard to chase. Perhaps stego could do that to rex, but I don't know what rex's abilities will be.

Personally I am thinking, making sure stego can turn effectively and stick it's head in a rock is good. Maybe it should take reduced tail hit damage enough so that a rex can't face-tank-tail-tank it? Or at least, not one or two rexes, but three could? If some creatures get reduced damage on the head, it seems fine to me for stego to take reduced tail damage.

I am unsure of what Rex's damage will be, too.

It's hard to say or make changes on something I don't know about yet.

But personally, the devs seem to already be balancing the game in the direction I've wanted it to go this whole time.

The nerfs to carno were exactly what I wanted, personally.

And I have some faith they'll try to make sure a rex can't easy-peasy solo stego, or at least they will try not to.

This game has a lot of moving pieces and finding the right balance is definitely gonna take some time and tweaking.

Hmm, if stego takes reduced tail damage, it might be OK for it to keep the increased head damage.

[hasty coyote]

Diablo would likely require some absolutely insane speed and agility buffs to dodge pretty much anything. Strafing comes with a pretty hefty speed nerf. So if it’s dealing with the type of issue you want to fix, aka 2 allos, then Diablo will need some major agility buffs.

And with stego, I just genuinely don’t see a single scenario where it lives. Even with regular head damage, even with insane bleed, stego will literally just get face tanked by 2 Rexes as the moment one gets on the head, stego can’t get it off without stopping attacking, which means it’s just taking more damage. And again, this is stego, unless it is pre positioned 10 feet from a rock, those Rexes are gonna maul it before it gets to any good terrain. Also reduced tail damage is already a global mechanic. The only, I mean ONLY way I see stego surviving 2 Rexes is for stego to knockdown a Rex with power swing, which allows stego to knockdown one, turn, knockdown the other, and attempt to trade and stall them out. However, that allows stego to basically 1 shot a Rex with 3 headshot power swings and a body swing.

[dusky surge]

stego has reduced plate damage, if not entire immunity to plate attacks

[cobalt dagger]

Oh I thought you meant Diablo vs Rex.

I don't know much about allo, really. What it's hp or damage will be, or it's bleed. It's possible the devs will put in something about allo's bleed to help. It's hard for me to talk about something I don't know the stats on.

[hasty coyote]

But Rex can likely just hit the body through the plates

[cobalt dagger]

Wait the plates are a separate hit box now? I was just about to suggest that, that's really cool

[cobalt dagger]

Well then maybe they need to make it like alt bites where the first thing hit is where the damage lands.

[hasty coyote]

It has a pounce mechanic similar to Omnis.

[cobalt dagger]

Yeah but what weight does it pin? I doubt allo will LATCH onto rexes the way omni does?

I also kinda doubt it will pin diablo

Cera and teno yea, but diablo? Isn't it 3 tons?

I think to talk about allo, I will have to wait an see what happens when it gets here.

Stats of creatures are subject to change before they get here as well as after.

[hasty coyote]

My sweet summer child hasn’t seen the clip of allo literally latched on the side of a stego. Granted was said to be wip and likely would have allo actually standing and not latched.

[cobalt dagger]

But I do think there is some way to tweak creatures so that everyone has some, maybe tiny, chance to live.

[hasty coyote]

https://tenor.com/view/allosaurus-vs-diplodocus-gif-7289673986106750781

Essentially this was shown

[cobalt dagger]

Hmm. I guess we'll see what happens. If it does that to steg, it will do that to rex. If it does that to rex, all the rex mains will be very unhappy.

And that outcry may well get it nerfed.

That doesn't look like the isle's models though?...

It doesn't look much like the isle at all.

[dusky surge]

"essentially"

[hasty coyote]

My issue ain’t with Rex, it’s with it doing that to Diablo. And if it functions anything like Omni pounce, then 2 will pin diablos

[hasty coyote]

I can dig up the clip tomorrow

[dusky surge]

it's how the animation looked, not how the models looked

[cobalt dagger]

I am skeptical that's the direction the devs will go in.

Or if it is, it will cause such outcry like grapple initially did that it will probably get toned down a little.

[hasty coyote]

Man I hope so, because Omnis has been doing the exact same thing for years and no one else seems to care because the dinos are small.

[cobalt dagger]

Yeah Omni is a bit OP

[dusky surge]

Grapple got tuned down for omni thank god

[cobalt dagger]

That's why I have faith.
I believe as new things are added they WILL be op and there WILL be power-creep, but I also have hope that it will get re-balanced with time, especially if we put in feedback and make suggestions

[hasty coyote]

Thankfully, still strong but not downright game breaking. Basically it just says “we were likely to kill you anyway so just die”

[dusky surge]

with the new changes to pounce stam, grappling really does seem to be the direction they're pushing omni

you can basically play backpack omni while you wait for your friends to pounce on too

[cobalt dagger]

I don't mind that as long as they retain using trees to remove omnis + bucking and stuff like that

[hasty coyote]

Or you just backpack Omni until the target burns all their stam and then pin with 2 lol

[dusky surge]

that too

they REALLY need to relook at bucking

[cobalt dagger]

What's backpack omni?

[dusky surge]

pounce, stay on the target, don't use your bite or claw, and just stay there until you're forced to leave

[hasty coyote]

If you just latch and don’t attack, you lose practically 0 stam but still burn the target’s stam HEAVILY, especially if they buck.

[cobalt dagger]

Also I don't mind when bucking for a raptor to be forced off 'predictably' as long as the raptor has time to get off themselves before you force them off so the bucker doesn't know when to attack to catch you.

[dusky surge]

it does basically no damage or bleed, but in packs, it's great setup for a grapple AND it drains opponent stam

i want them to add some kind of "charge" system to omni like how many other creatures have that's drained via bucking

[cobalt dagger]

That sounds like a good idea.

Yeah sounds like omni is still really OP from all of this. But well, that's what the feedback section is for, to suggest feedback.

[hasty coyote]

I have a suggestion exactly like that: #balance-feedback message

[dusky surge]

Omni is still in a super bizarre spot

It feels like one of those animals people don't quite get

They don't realise how well it scales in packs

And with the new changes, pack omni is even stronger

I'll be honest, this HT has seriously buffed the pouncer class of dino

If you're a troodon or omni, you're eating GOOD this patch

[cobalt dagger]

Yeah... I've noticed that. It is very powerful and yet I see so few.

Well, all the troo packs I've met suicide themselves into the faces of baby trikes.

[hasty coyote]

Omni has the highest variability in power. If it’s allowed to do what it wants, it’s downright the most op dino. However, they have so many different counterplay options that they can be almost entirely nullified with the right terrain.

[dusky surge]

I think the issue is omni just doesn't get the same level of easy value that a cera would get. Omni doesn't have that easily accessible power, other carnivores do

[dusky surge]

^

Pretty much, omni is one of those animals that needs appropriate hunting conditions

[hasty coyote]

Yeah Omnis lowest value is practically 0, but their highest value is infinite.

[dusky surge]

But with the pounce changes, new grass and so on, I would not be surprised to see a notable increase to omni's effectiveness

[hasty coyote]

I’m both terrified and not scared of Omnis next patch.
On one had, major buffs make good Omnis horrific to deal with.
On the other, I can count the number of good Omnis I have fought with one hand. And I can’t count how many awful Omnis I have seen that just die on the spot.

[solid wyvern]

What is 1 v 1 norden?

I know the server but what are you talking about?

[dusky surge]

All the omnis will be Rexes so no worries

[solid wyvern]

Same for dilo but for different reasons tho

[spiral kindle]

Omni is still hard countered by terrain but in the plains it makes getting pins much easier

Troodon is still bad

Cause of broken hitboxes

And d-sync

[elfin night]

@keen mango no, omni is fine now

Don’t ask for buffs

[keen mango]

How are you going to tell me that it's fine when a Carno can outrun a Raptor, despite the fact that a Carno weighs 2.5x more. I'm not sure why I'm responding to someone with #OmniHater in their name, pretty clear where your bias rests but from a matter of balance, Raptors are not.

[solid wyvern]

Uhm, if something heavier and faster than omni it isn't unbalnced. Carno is literally built for running

Very mucular legs and tail - all speaks that it fast

Also complaining about carno just ridicolous cause it's intended role of carno to hunt down small tiers

[elfin night]

If you are unwilling to hear my answer to a question that simple, use your common sense and try to come up with a reason as for why it’s fine that the small game hunter is fast for its size

[solid wyvern]

https://tenor.com/view/the-isle-carnotaurus-the-isle-evrima-evrima-dinosaur-gif-16978147132789972619

[elfin night]

And I mostly “hate” omni because of the playerbase’s need to demand buffs and have this overarching victim complex over its place in the meta

[dusky surge]

wait hold on we're now saying omni should be faster than carno

[elfin night]

He pulled that out as an argument as for why omni is bad lmao

When omni is never getting caught by a carno like ever unless it is clueless

Has a better chance at fleeing a carno than a galli (galli main here, completely at the mercy of carnos unless there’s water nearby or they’re very far)

[keen mango]

Carno is literally built for sprinting Raptors are the endurance runners. If it weighs more, it's not unreasonable to think that something that weighs more shouldn't gave a larger stamina pool than something lighter. I'm not saying that carno should be faster.

[dusky surge]

raptor does have more stam tho

[elfin night]

^

And by a significant amount

[solid wyvern]

I am not sure now cause HT carno have buffed stam

[elfin night]

Either way

Omni has no trouble compared to carno

[solid wyvern]

Dilos on other hand have harder times with carno since they are not as agile and don't jump

Omniraptor doesn't have that much issues

Yes, it looses in the straight line speed but it's not hard to juke from a carno/ run into forest/ jump on rock/ use terrain

[elfin night]

Or jump into the water to cross a river

[vale brook]

are we really shocked that carno, the speed demon bull meant to make life as a small tier in plains hell, is faster than omni

[elfin night]

Omniraptor playerbase

[keen mango]

Average troll lmao

[vale brook]

i mean he's not wrong

i saw someone complaining about teno backkick doing more bleed damage than omni and like.. yeah

[elfin night]

It’s always the omni players…

[vale brook]

youre not gonna get good bleed on an animal if you just tap pounce or are solo

[elfin night]

Like seriously, omni is the dinosaur that gets the most unwarranted buff request

[solid wyvern]

Well we have seen some cera players making stupid complains

[elfin night]

And whining about how it is unplayable and atrocious and so bad and it needs urgent buffs 😭

[elfin night]

Yeah absolutely but nowhere close to the sheer bulk of omni players in feedback on a daily basis

[vale brook]

the main issue with omni really is the pounce being buggy + bite speed

[keen mango]

I'm not even an Omniplayer lol. I main Carno

[elfin night]

Yup, and even then bite speed isn’t really that big of an issue when things you can trade with can be pinned

And those you can’t pin are better off using your agility to bite once and disengage

[keen mango]

1/2 the reason I made the suggestion

[elfin night]

Well regardless

[solid wyvern]

Than why are you complaining? If you encounter omni players so stupid to die to you - it's their fault

[elfin night]

We really don’t need omni one shotting ceras and carnos with a damage pounce

If you buff their stamina by 30% they would be able to do that literally

💀

[vale brook]

true 💀

[solid wyvern]

I am more worried what devs will do with dilo cause clones are too powerfull

IDk why passive spawn clones were even added

[tender turtle]

Clones currently do no damage in Evrima. They used to, but have since been broken.

[elfin night]

they do at times

and it's so broken

[solid wyvern]

I am talking about HT

[elfin night]

and even in the live branch it is super unfair when they do damage

I once lost an adult cera (my first one actually) when I was with my back against a wall and I only got bit by dilos like three times and the venom did the rest even though I tried biting them. In the time where I did not really know the matchups but I kinda new how it worked

I love getting bitten 10-12 times with no counterplay 🔥

[iron tree]

They don't do damage if you sit

[neon willow]

I mean honestly it would be better if they could only get like 3 clone bites before having to go in for a venom refresher (and make it like troo, and force them to have to completely reapply all stages to get more clones). Also, honestly, I never got why the clones do so much damage. Seems like 25-50% of the dilo's bite force would still be pretty good since it's no risk to the dilo to apply that damage

[elfin night]

Anything is better

[slim dragon]

Clones applying a damage multiplier instead of dealing damage directly would be nice

[iron tree]

yes

[golden coral]

@north tulip Pretty sure stego can't onehit a trike, another stego, deino, or even diablo and maybe maia. But even so, you think it's reasonable that it can only attack 3 times, then what? It just dies? Or how else nerf it, lower damage but up weight of stego instead, would that be a trade then, so it no longer hurt as much, but can also tank better?

[north tulip]

Erik thats true but most servers dont alow herbi vs herbi combat. I mean its special attack not the normal tail attack, the weight is alright but the speed is crazy for something that heavy, make it stamina drain quicker and regen be very slow.

[stark knoll]

Why should we balance the game around servers who fundamentally misunderstand it?

They can do their own balancing once that becomes an option

[golden coral]

I don't know what servers you're on, but I would argue herbi vs herbi should be a thing, especially for larger ones like stego and trike and the rest we're getting. Currently trikes do win over stegos, though they struggle, but with their full kit, I imagine stegos will be "bullied" more often than not, and I fully expect trikes and stegos to not at all get along, due to both needing lots of food. As for the swing, the running already costs 15, the standing one 10, that is quite the hefty price as it is, compared to most other things. And I don't think stegos regen better, it's probably the whole tactile endurance mutation, but that's a mutation issue and not really stegos fault.

[hasty coyote]

Herbie v herbie has to be balanced because people are people, and people will just attack each other for fun.

And stego is fine because it has 1 incredibly simple counter: walk away. And if you want to fight it, it only has 10 power swings, then it has to use the very exploitable jabs for the rest of the fight.

[elfin night]

@north tulip git gud

mfw the giant 6 ton defensive herbivore does actual damage

[golden coral]

@rotund ivy Perhaps more smaller prey items are needed, or more likelyhood of finding juvies/subs of the larger ones. Most of the ones you counted are not, far as I know, intended prey items for carno when grown, due to it being a small game hunter. Though pachy should be a perfectly fine prey item, as should teno, at least in packs.

[spiral kindle]

@rotund ivy Ht carno has more stam and has reduced growth

[rotund ivy]

You did not miss my point, ty for that!
I am really enjoying playing carno, but everytime I get a carno to FG, I am hiding/scavenging half the time, due to obviously the fear of losing so many hours but also not being comfortable in most fights. EVEN if there is a fight I am comfortable in, I see a dibble or similar nearby who could ruin my hunt whenever he wanted.. And trust me, they always want to do so

[rotund ivy]

Thats def a step in the right direction!

[spiral kindle]

As carno you want to be hunting Carnivores

Herbivores are just a no go

Unless it's a galli

Or a dryo or whatever

You want to be hunting Ceras,Omnis and Dilo's

[rotund ivy]

Yes, but fighting even 2 dilos is probably gonna end in your defeat, if they just quickly choose a fine place to fight (charge is dumb)

Ceras can do the same, even whilst only being a 1v1, yet mostly you should win a 1v1.. Tell me how many times you see a solo cera x)

Galli's, dryo's or anything herbi huntable is just not appearing anywhere.

Now in regards to Omni's, thats fun!

[golden coral]

Need to find them at earlier ages! And I think carno scales well in groups, with or without charge, so if you can find a friend or two, you might be better off. But yeah, it's not neccesarily easy when people favour larger playables.

Need more galli and dryo players, somehow!

[rotund ivy]

Its really hard to find them at earlier ages, because most go to sanctuary and hide, go outside sanctuary, eat and hide, because food is plentyfull :/

Idk if its global or not, but most servers dont allow more than 3 carnos in same group, whereas stegos can be 5 etc

[golden coral]

No, I do think 3 is the official limit, but that should be pretty solid if you're all adult and got your teamwork figured out. And yeah, stego group numbers is stupid, I've no idea why they are not limited to 2 or at most 3. And yeah, not sure where to find growing herbis, unless you can find them at migration zones or such.

[worthy steeple]

goat should not be on carnos diet btw

carno already gets proteins and carbs from just eating ai, giving it at hat gives lipids is not a good decision

[rotund ivy]

Carno's diet is a joke tho, very hard to get up

[worthy steeple]

everything except lipids is very easy to get

if you want lipids, there’s galli/maia/dryo and literally any other animal with organs

[spiral kindle]

Dryo and Galli barely exist

And 3 carnos can only kill bad maia

[worthy steeple]

organs

[rotund ivy]

Either you have only had a few lucky runs as carno or I have had ALOT of unlucky ones. AI barely spawn and playables is.. Imposibble to kill as a juvi carno xd

[spiral kindle]

Cera organ only gives u 20%

[worthy steeple]

you won’t believe me, but not every maia is fg, there’s subs and juvies too

[rotund ivy]

Exactly

[spiral kindle]

Well yeah ofc

[worthy steeple]

i’m playing as carno as we speak and i’m not having any issues

while also not being at the hotspot

[spiral kindle]

U can easily kill a boar once you're 120kg plus

[rotund ivy]

Thats true, if you can find them

[spiral kindle]

On official servers i don't have any issues in finding Ai

[worthy steeple]

same tbh

[rotund ivy]

That might be true, which is also mostly caused because the servers can hold more AI, due to lack of players

100 players on the absolutely massive map that is gateway is not enough for a player like me 😮

[worthy steeple]

if you cant find players/ want more interactions just go to the hotspots

[rotund ivy]

I know, but if you have tried to play a 250pop server in the hotspots, theres no way u wanna go back to official servers. Its so much fun and chaos, whilst still allowing for more controlled chaos in the outskirts of the hotspots

[worthy steeple]

i played on the server with 250 players, i liked that more than officials

[spiral kindle]

Petits peids has no land ai

Only on server restarts pretty much

[rotund ivy]

The AI on unofficial servers is extremely unstable and unpredictable.. The server admins/owners call it buggy AI but idk

I just wish it was not so hard to get a carnivore up, would make for less herbi's and more fights

Herbis is so ez

[worthy steeple]

it has some,they just spawn very rarely

[spiral kindle]

Herbivores in general is just alot easier growth wise survival wise you name it

I guess it's cause they want more ppl to play herbi that's why they made it faster to grow and easier to survive

[rotund ivy]

Exactly 😆

[rotund ivy]

Well then surely that must be because they need more herbis to protect from the big scary carnis? Wrong, carnis is a joke atm against herbis haha feelsbadman

[worthy steeple]

😭 😭 😭

[rotund ivy]

Lol wtf is that paradise hahahha

[minor axle]

Tuesday at west rail

[rigid tulip]

lets keep it 100 bro absolutely no carno player will ever have a single carno on this game where its main food source comes from below 500kg herbivores. devs need to stop trying to force it

there will never in this entire games history for the forseeable future be enough of those players to feed a carno consistently

ever

tired of pretending its realistic

carno will realistically always be killing omni, cera, dilo, mono, rugops, etc and these repetitive quite frankly strange nerfs trying to force it to be something it will never be is just unhealthy and unfun

[spiral kindle]

Yeah it limits gameplay way too much

[elfin night]

I snorted so hard when I read that guy saying carno is too weak right now

The hell you want it to do? Be an apex?

It is absolutely terrifying at its job right now

[worthy steeple]

ht carno is pretty good

[vale brook]

no one is wanting you to hunt sub 500kg animals

carno excels at hunting pretty much anything smaller than it

that small sub teno in plains? sure, it's 1000kg, but that's still smaller than you. ez meal

[keen plover]

tbf that's like 1 ok option

Every other line option is non existent at this point

You need to kill a maia, but you can only do it at a certain growth and you better hope it's alone!

[worthy steeple]

organs

[keen plover]

the values are bad

same size is 20%. Even less when you get to the small animals you're meant to hunt

[worthy steeple]

you’re getting proteins and carbs basically for free eating AI, i think it’s good that you have to work for lipids at least

the only realistic solution is wait for more dinos to be added to the game or add dilo to carnos diet, but that probably not happening

[viscid mica]

@somber glen I mean even with the damage reduction that’s simply how much damage trike does trike is a apex and dilo is a small tier (bros not even 1 ton)

@rotund fern Mix packing Isn’t allowed it’s just not a bannable offence thus why they can’t group or communicate

Also limiting # of species would severely limit player freedom

@topaz elm more mist like less glob?

[dusky surge]

imma be honest, you can make an exception for carno, absolutely valid to do so

because carno is so inherently specialised, its hunting range is quite limited

AI falls within its easiest possible hunts and shares its environment frequently

And it's large enough that AI can't be a consistently powerful boon

[eager saddle]

I don’t people saying carno is weak. It’s not, it is just not as strong as cera

And that’s not carno’s fault

[dusky surge]

Cera is busted, plain and simple, and carno doesn't match up to a clearly overtuned animal

[eager saddle]

Yeah but again, that’s not a carno issue, that’s a cera issue

If something is too strong, you make it weaker. Not make everything else stronger. (At least, in this kind of game)

[viscid mica]

Not so much cera as the vomit being overly strong of a ability

[dusky surge]

no it is also just cera

it has an exceptionally good stat pool

[topaz elm]

Yes, shotgun style fan

[viscid mica]

Ya I mean it makes sense most things are spray than beam sense liquids naturally disperse over distance

[warm flax]

Or simply add more choices for the player to choose from, like AI dinos. For example, if you are playing as a T. rex or an Allosaurus, it is still pretty hard to find a Maia or a Stego to hunt in a 100–120-player server. Additionally, there isn't much motivation for people to try out small-tier herbivores either.

[dusky surge]

Adding AI dinosaurs literally decreases player diversity

You're sentencing certain animals to "playable AI" which makes them naturally unappealing

When I play an animal, I want the calls of my own kind to actually mean I can group up, not some AI trying to get itself killed so it can fulfil its purpose of free food

It's why teno AI was utter garbage for the few days it was out. It completely demotivated actually playing tenonto, and just encouraged carnotaurus and ceratosaurus megapacks to thrive

[warm flax]

and most of the time no one calls back cause they are busy playing as the cool ones

[dusky surge]

Then make the "uncool ones" cooler

Hypsi and dryo still ain't done

I'm more excited for a finished hypsi than allosaurus

Don't subject them to making no one ever want to play them again by making them little more than playable AI that acts to support megapacks of rexes because they have it too hard

I'll just play another rex and join the megapack and eat AI stegos

Why play anything small? It's arguably more challenging than playing the big things at that point

I still remember that legacy always had a few dryos, or sometimes a whole herd, because they had a mechanic no one else had that was genuinely fun and allowed you to engage with the environment in new, unique ways

Just like how herrera, despite having pretty poor combat stats and size, is so played and beloved, because it is capable of uniquely interacting with its environment to survive and experiment

[slim dragon]

Apparently there's people out there who believe the exact opposite

[dusky surge]

Which I doubt they'll actually stick true to that sentiment when said AI comes out

Because now it's easier to grow big carnivore

[iron tree]

@somber glen yeah it should get a speed buff

But the self stun is necessary

It'd be broken as hell

And it's not even that bad

[slim dragon]

#ai-feedback-discussion message

[dusky surge]

Totally unrelated but I wonder why the dinosaur survival game where you play with a bunch of AI and was entirely singleplayer didn't kick off the way The Isle did

[slim dragon]

Because the developer ran away with the money ?

[dusky surge]

that too

[glossy elbow]

have you watched any of amaroks streams showing off the new wip ai? they seem to be considerably better then the old teno ai that used to be in the game. i know you are strictly against having ai dinosaurs but im quite curious for what ideas they have for the ai and what they could do in game.

[dusky surge]

ive seen them. could be done better by providing complex behaviour to the other AIs

[solid wyvern]

How is trike with spar enabled? Is it scary?

[fathom moat]

Turns on a damn dime XD

Also, Yay. Night visions broken again for Trike lol

[steep otter]

Imagine animal almost has agile has dibble, but 3 times bigger

Pretty much feels the same has dibble, minus the crazy drifts

[solid wyvern]

So trike can't drift?

[steep otter]

It can, just not has good has dibble can

[steep gazelle]

The trike drift in sparring mode will probably be the same as its current drift (without sparring), in Dibble itself its drift is better without it than using sparring mode.

[fathom moat]

Omgoodness this nv with trike lol

[floral granite]

Looks like trike is gonna be pretty hard to kill

[devout venture]

after some info on the mutation "do more damage to animals with low health" ive been told it only works for AI and not dinos. can anyone show me if true or if it does in fact work on dinos

[dusky surge]

dinos are animals, so yes, it does work

[devout venture]

yes im aware of that was just told it wasnt worded to include dinos and people claimed it didnt work for dino

[dusky surge]

yea idk why people keep saying this

dinos and animals are not mutually exclusive

if its alive and not a plant, it'll work to do damage to it

[devout venture]

Yeah thats what i figured and assumed lol. Cheers

[solid wyvern]

You know how easy to fix pachy? Make 44 km/h and don't do self stun if it lands headbutt on target. Boom! - Pachy saved.

[steep gazelle]

When hitting and missing the headbutt there should be no Self stun , But I doubt the devs will do that.

[rustic fractal]

i feel like if you hit someones head full charge ram you should be able to stun them

[steep gazelle]

Pachy was like that before, was able to go 1v1 with Carno and Cerato from Spiro, that's why he was removed.

[iron tree]

There should be

A speed buff and a buff to the damage reduction on head shots are fine

Removing the self stun would make pachy insanely op

[hasty coyote]

You’re underselling it there, 1v1 while taking 0 damage because the carno literally could not do anything the moment you leg fractured it.

[hasty coyote]

How? Omni gets away with having a way stronger ability while having it be nearly unpunishable since you can’t hit them while they are on you and they have no self stun on miss.

[iron tree]

Do you want pachy being able to spam bone break something? I do not

[stark knoll]

@ashen plank Check the pinned messages in the official server channels to see how to report hackers

[ashen plank]

Just fyi I searched for how to report them it shouldn’t be that hard to find it

[jaunty cliff]

is patchy that bad? it was first i played and i was getting kills

i wana see pteradon get it’s damage 3x or at least 2

it’s such a risk to dive anyways and u def can’t kill anything on the ground walking on ur wings

revert da nerf

[vale brook]

checking pins is usually one of the first things that should come to mind when looking for info

[stark knoll]

@topaz elm Already in the HT

[topaz elm]

oh sweet

sorry didnt know

[steep gazelle]

Pachy is slow and has 500 health, if you don't want to fight him, run away. Or face him

[steep gazelle]

Cerato also had a self-stun when missing the Charge bite, but now he can miss as much as he wants without any consequences, but the 500kg pachy running at 41 or 43km (if he is buffed) is op? Xd

[keen plover]

Yeah Pachy should be punished for landing its hit

[dusky surge]

:(

[keen plover]

Cope pachy main

You're supposed to be fodder

[slim dragon]

What is it with herbivore mains not wanting to play their part in the ecosystem as food for carnivores

[true brook]

Pteradon needs a stamina buff.

Whether it's total stamina or regeneration tick speed.

[rapid flume]

pteras getting reworked

[elfin night]

😔 I am sorry for wanting to have agency over my dinosaur that costed thousands of dollars to make just like the carnivores

[elfin night]

Nope

[dusky surge]

just played ptera and no it does not lmao

it is SO EASY to retain stamina as pteranodon

disgustingly easy

[true brook]

The votes say otherwise.

[rustic fractal]

no lol

[viscid mica]

[elfin night]

votes don't make suggestions more likely to be accepted + appeal to popularity fallacy

many people who vote suggestions are clueless anyway

ptera has the ability to traverse half of the map faster than a galli and wasting 30% stam

it really doesnt need a stam buff, it's just people playing it like a bird and not a pterosaur

[true brook]

We clearly have different understandings of how the pteradon functions then.

[elfin night]

I mean

probably? but that doesn't mean stuff cannot be settled or that there's some objectivity about how things should me

it just makes sense that pteranodon works more like a pterosaur rather than a bird

plus it's getting a rework AND slipstreams next update

[dusky surge]

^

playing it with someone newer to the game made me understand the stam complaints

[elfin night]

yup

[dusky surge]

but if you KNOW how to play, it has nearly no limits to its movement

it is disgustingly efficient

[elfin night]

ptera prolly has the most exigent stam management with the new system

like if you don't know about it, ptera can be rather miserable

but if you do to some extent, ptera is the best traveler in the entire game and it isn't even close

I once just decided to try it for the funsies and I went from water access all the way down to west rail as a ptera wasting only 30% of my stam, literally. And I got there in 5 minutes at best

[slim dragon]

No it's omni !!!!
Increase omni stam and stam regen and reduce stam pounce cost and make it able to regen stam while trotting at any%

[elfin night]

any other playable would have needed to rest or spend a while trotting

[elfin night]

many players unironically think that is fine

[slim dragon]

Omni needs the stam more because it's a oneshot for everything in the roster

[elfin night]

and it can one shot 9/17 or potentially 10/17 playables currently

[slim dragon]

Only if it's a very skilled omni (which I am) and in a pack of 10+ because omni is weak solo, but it should be decent solo
And also have buffs in a pack because it's a pack hunter

[elfin night]

right

in fact omni should be buffed if you are in a pack with people that you are not steam friends with since bad randoms are just so bad and handicap the entire pack

[slim dragon]

OH
I remember something hilarious someone suggested for omni once

[elfin night]

I remember when someone suggested buffing it to make up for randoms

[slim dragon]

It was that omni should project a healing aura around itself when sitting

[elfin night]

what

[slim dragon]

Because it purrs like a cat and cat purrs are healing

[elfin night]

pffffft

an omni healing the teno kick it got to the face because a nearby raptor is purring

gastro but no need for food

[slim dragon]

I remember other funny suggestions too, but not about omni
There was one asking for carno to be able to grip stego's tail with its mouth to prevent it form swinging

[iron tree]

Cera needs its slide back and cera can't fracture

[iron tree]

I play pachy a lot and it needs a speed buff. It's not that great solo but you're insane if you've another pachy

[dusky surge]

the slide was clunky and bad. dont readd it

[iron tree]

I mean

Without the slide ceras are just gonna spam their charged bite and use it for hunting

[dusky surge]

id prefer to add a speed debuff for charging the charged bite

like a 20%

[iron tree]

Hm

[worthy steeple]

#balance-feedback message maias speed is not bad tho lmao

https://youtu.be/eBNsHsKTDig?si=5mrkqmHMZBd4WO2T

@cosmic pelican why would you even upvote that😭

maia swimming speed is legit not bad after the nerf and its essential for smaller things to at least be able to swim away from it.

maia in HT is a killing machine, they nerfed the swimming speed for a reason..

[cosmic pelican]

The juvi needs swimming speed, its a free meal on land

Non fg maias are literally free food

[worthy steeple]

just fix the speed then😳

[cosmic pelican]

If it had at least decent swim speed it could somewhat escape predators at least in delta

[cosmic pelican]

Doubt theyll backtrack on it. Literally dozens of people complained about the troodon speed nerf in the feedback channels, yet it remained unchanged.

[worthy steeple]

well they can give it swimming speed and stuff and remove ability to stun tenos, then i’m fine.

i don’t really know how to escape that kosing everything maia pack running around the map. i could fight before, but there’s no cooldowns on attacks anymore

[cosmic pelican]

Just make maia have horrible swimming stamina if its THAT big of an issue

[worthy steeple]

not even gonna mention pachy, i think it just dies if maia sees it lol

[cosmic pelican]

You can still use forests, no amount of maias is killing a teno there

[worthy steeple]

yeah, probably the only thing you can do.

but i still don’t like that the obvious domination

they could make it only good vs small things in biped and strong against big things in quad and that would be very balanced, but instead they decided to make it strong in both stances

[cosmic pelican]

👆
Pretty sure maia already has worse swimming stamina than teno

[worthy steeple]

it’s slow in quad so it would make sense for it to be strong against big things only in quad lol

[worthy steeple]

it does

[cosmic pelican]

So you can use water too

[worthy steeple]

not pachy, sadly, there’s only forrest

[elfin night]

https://youtu.be/S7Myy6FxJWY?si=jZwmvZVQqWzQeb12 sure sure Metta, people who play dilo only do it because they wanna play the night dinosaur and not because they're garbage players...

[worthy steeple]

but my issue is not that, my issue is how stronger maia is compared to other herbivores without having any real weaknesses?

i’m fine with dibble or trike since even tho they’re strong, they’re at least slow

[elfin night]

I also saw someone justifying this because "that's called glass cannon"

[worthy steeple]

maia is just stronger and faster? and also really heavy

[cosmic pelican]

Lets be real, pachy is just trash

[worthy steeple]

it’s not what makes pachy trash tho

[cosmic pelican]

Maias weakness is its HORRIBLE stamina efficieny

[cosmic pelican]

Everything about pschy makes it trash

[cosmic pelican]

A stomp+shove combo costs 9% stam, plus the stam you used to run

[worthy steeple]

just imagine if they buff its stam as well, i will cry

[cosmic pelican]

The front alt attacks in quad cost between 2-4%, the kicks are 2%

Any non sweaty competent player will melt through their own stamina in seconds

Even I struggle with stamina management in long fights as a maia, and Id like to think of myself as a competent player

[worthy steeple]

well i hope they won’t buff the stam lol.

but i would honestly prefer something with more stam, but not as strong

[steep gazelle]

There is no fracture but it has extremely high damage and still makes you vomit, reducing your thirst and hunger by 80% and preventing you from eating for 5 minutes...

[iron tree]

I know

that's literally what I said

pachy has fracture

and imagine it just runs around and spam fractures everything

fracture disables most abilities and it's also very lethal

[steep gazelle]

both have high debuffs for victims, but one weighs 1.3t and doesn't die easily and the other weighs 500kg and dies in one slap... even if you hit the headbutt you are vulnerable for a while so, just like omni you can miss your pounce without any problems and Cerato your charge bite, pachy should too

[iron tree]

pachy shouldn't

[steep gazelle]

Either remove the self stun on miss or decrease the stun time

[iron tree]

cera is a poor example because it is overtuned atm

[iron tree]

reducing the stun time is fine

but completely removing it would make pachy broken

[steep gazelle]

Even if he hits or misses, Pachy is stunned, he doesn't need that xd Well, at least not when he hits

[elfin night]

@gleaming spruce troll posts are funnier when they don’t seem like troll posts

[worthy steeple]

i think it’s a good satire, but you didn’t get it.

[solid wyvern]

Uhm... Maias swim speed still decent

It was odd when it swam faster than teno

[cosmic pelican]

Not enough to make juvi and sub maia not free food

[solid wyvern]

They probably just did bad scaling with growth

Probably will be fixed like trike getting too much bulk too early

[elfin night]

@hidden tartan but carno's ability is also a speed boost and in practice it will do more than a charged bite since you get a free hit or two after a knockdown or stun

[hidden tartan]

You get that once every fight if you get them by surprise, even then its very unlikely if fighting something like a cera, not to mention you cant charge anything bigger than a teno

[elfin night]

not like it needs more than that with such a gargantuan hitbox and most of its appropiate prey are done after a good charge and finishing them off on the ground (or they just need a few short charges more to go down)

we really really don't need a 250-300+ damage charge for carno

[hidden tartan]

If i waste 20% of my stam going for a full charge i expect to do a little more than a normal bite

[vale brook]

how the hell are you wasting 20% stam on one charge

[hidden tartan]

Its pretty far distance aint it

[elfin night]

only 50-60 meters

so like 4-5 seconds charging

[hidden tartan]

Still thats alot of stam for no reward

[vale brook]

it really isnt lol

carno charge barely takes stam nowadays, even moreso on HT

[elfin night]

5% stam for a knockdown and guaranteed alt/head bite on a dilo or below

no reward really?

we dont need carno players forgetting they have a lmb attack and killing ceras with 5 charges

[hidden tartan]

but a cera can kill you in 4

seems fair

[vale brook]

you also have complete control over that fight

[elfin night]

and cera doesn't have a base top speed of 50kph

and 60 with the charge

if things go wrong for the carno it can completely disengage for free. How is it fair to have a 50/50 in a fight but you have infinitely less commitment than the other person lol

[hidden tartan]

How can it disengage when a cera can always catch you

[elfin night]

plus max damage carno charge currently interrupts charged bite. You can very much trade with ceras in the open if they try to fight you

[elfin night]

bruh

[vale brook]

shift + w

[elfin night]

9.3kph faster on base

[vale brook]

cerato is almost 20kph slower than a carno running at max speed

if you cant get away, i blame you im ngl

[elfin night]

19.3 with the charge

[hidden tartan]

Ive been caught by ceras many times even if i run away far

[vale brook]

alongside the stam buffs and bleed modifiers removal it has in HT

[elfin night]

manage your stamina properly to not get tracked then

or keep moving instead of burning all of it since carno trots faster than cera

if you actually put some effort and are any competent as a carno, a cera will never catch you even if you somehow burn half of your stamina before falling back

[elfin night]

^ very much all that carno needed

no need to be an apex, just some refinement and it's already a very solid pick (as if it wasn't so brutally effective hunting small game before)

I don't get the carno victim complex either

even now in the live branch you can kill ceras 1v1 and carno has next to no business doing that lmao

[hidden tartan]

You cant kill ceras 1v1

[elfin night]

you absolutely can

[hidden tartan]

In perfect conditions yeah

[elfin night]

if they are stubborn and remain the open you obliterate them

[vale brook]

very easily infact

leauges better than when carno just flattened cerato the second it saw it

[hidden tartan]

That is without denying but you will never see a cera do that

[elfin night]

why would you even try to attack a cera in suboptimal conditions in the first place?

Ambush them in the open and if they show the bravado they all seem to have and there's no water nearby, they are cooked as soon as you nail the surprise attack

[hidden tartan]

good cera vs good carno cera wins all the time

[elfin night]

good ceras will only fight carnos if they get the ambush, there's good terrain or they have body buff

otherwise they won't bother

you can be a great cera but it simply isn't worth the risk to fight a carno that has already seen you in the open. It's riskier than another cera

seriously

don't let your biased angst blind you. Cera without cover is a sitting duck for a mildly decent carno

[hidden tartan]

If you say so

[elfin night]

I say so with 1000+ hours

and sammy is right too

pre shrink carno just mopped cera with no counterplay

right now they have a very healthy matchup

[steep gazelle]

A fight between Carno and Cerato is a matter of luck, any small bite from Cerato that hits you causes 3x more damage than your charge, but your charge has a stun that, with the buff on Carno stam in hordtest, he can use this more efficiently.

But Evrima's Carnotaurus (not Hordtest) has much more difficulty against Ceratos because the stam runs out like water and Cerato is able to run for 2x longer than you.

[hidden tartan]

carno does not trot faster than cera just witnessed it firsthand

even with photo i was not faster

[keen plover]

Cerato trots faster than Carno

[hidden tartan]

Well either he was cheating

or ur wrong

[keen plover]

Cerato's trot speed is marginally quicker than Carno's. They were both equal pre downsize

[hidden tartan]

Nevermind i thought u said carno trots faster

This other dude said the opposite

either way that just got me killed

[keen plover]

Cover or no cover, it is a Cerato sided matchup.

[hidden tartan]

Thats what i was saying but this dude with his 1000 hours thinks otherwise

[keen plover]

As long as you're not letting carno stagger you, you can trade hit for hit and win

[topaz elm]

@mortal raptor yes love this
25% health regen buff after a hunt/after incident is perfect

that feels great tbh, not too overpowered and still provides a great healing bonus

[spring sluice]

Dont allow raptors to do damage too their own kind to prevent idiots from ruining your game... I started a stream and got jumped by the lesser minds of your servers. Lets get the updates rollin!

[rotund whale]

this is already partially solved by the pounce update
you have to hold left or right click to do damage / bleed
not holding any button does minimal damage

[vale brook]

so remove any risk in hunts between raptors?

no thank you lol

[elfin night]

Maybe I tripped with something as minimal as the trotting

But still, if you get tracked down that is entirely on you

Just manage your stamina if you think you can’t win and we’re good

[elfin night]

So basically removing all of the skill that comes from grappling a larger target to the ground and also making cannibalism impossible?

Just put up with it and find better randoms or something bro

Nothing should ever be buffed just because of your randoms

[iron tree]

To the cera vs Carno argument

As much as I'd like go have pre-rework Carno back (preferably update 5 carno), I don't think that'd work. The matchup is cera sided but that's not because Carno is bad. It's because cera is hypercharged atm and is good at everything

[elfin night]

Also because it’s fair for cera to have the upper hand vs carno when it is much slower

And well, it’s meant to perform well against carnivores in its weight class or below

[crimson crater]

#balance-feedback message @shadow warren it does have predators though

also why troodon of all things, they would get 2 tapped by herreras

[shadow warren]

A troo could mess up a herrera it could also climb by climbining near it then pouncing it. yes it could get 2 tapped but it should be risky going into a tree after one and req a few troos to co-ordinate - wouldnt have to be troo though could be anything. If it has preditors, how come nothing could kill me when I was playing? you can just run, jump and latch onto something then climb. nothing can chase me up a tree or get me out of a tree or off a cliff - its so easy. Herrera is waaay to easy to kill people and to not be killed yourself

[crimson crater]

there isn’t really too much space in the trees so u can’t just run around it like you can on ground, things can’t get you in trees sure but on ground they will

troodon is a really bizarre choice of predator regardless

[elfin night]

Bruh

Why troodon

It would get nuked by herras as it tries to climb or it would die with a fall after it gets shrugged off or disengages from a pounce

How do you even make a POUNCER work in the treetops?? 💀

[dusky surge]

just wait till gen 1 is added and we'll see the herrera predator you want

poor herreras are gonna be so traumatised

[elfin night]

Yeah

Gen 1, not so big megalanias, cannibal herras, quetz…

[dusky surge]

herreras have by far the scariest predator on the roster LMAO

you're minding your own business than THAT thing starts scampering up your tree

[elfin night]

They’re gonna have trouble soon

[dusky surge]

titanoboa

[elfin night]

I would take titanoboa as a tree apex over troodon climbing to allegedly pose a threat to herra honestly

So scary, 15N bite force and if it tries to pounce it just falls off and dies

[dusky surge]

LMAO

[elfin night]

Seriously

HOW, how is troodon going to do anything in an environment where you cannot outmaneuver your enemy in a narrow branch or you are forced to jump to another tree and burn your precious stamina in the process

Terrible idea 😭

Oh here it comes again

The carno victim complex

[dusky surge]

i cant wait for HT carno to come out so we actually have a good carno and we no longer have a valid reason to complain about it all the damn time lol

[elfin night]

@autumn wasp or…you can just wait until the next update when Rex comes out that it will pose an actual threat to anything dibble sized and above, and not make carno capable of mopping ceras in a 1v1

[elfin night]

True

HT carno is good

People asking for 1500-2000kg carno is

Also someone suggesting earlier that the charge should do more damage, implying that it should be akin to charged bite in terms of numbers

Imagine carno 5-6 shotting tenos

[dusky surge]

it actually used to do damage akin to cera. it was awful

[elfin night]

I remember that time

When Carno was an apex. I tried teno on U2 once and that moment will forever remain in my head

2 carnos show up. They knock me over and kill me in 4 bites

[autumn wasp]

rex? at thsi point id be happy with allo

[elfin night]

We are getting rex before allo

So even better. No allo yet

[autumn wasp]

that makes no sense why would they and the apex trike and rex before allo?

[elfin night]

Because rex is cooler and it has been for a longer time in the works

Also an actual peril to stego

Solo allos aren’t gonna do ANYTHING to stegos

Or potentially dibbles

[autumn wasp]

i saw a video yesterday and it was allo testing and it looked like it could jump on stego kind of like omni so it actually might with enought numbers be able to pin dibbles and maybe stegos

[elfin night]

That would be so stupid

I hope it cannot pin dibbles

Or other allos for that matter

[rapid flume]

omni can pin stegos

[cosmic pelican]

If allo keeps the same grapple math omni has, 2 allos will be pinning low stam rexes and trikes

[elfin night]

Allo one shotting another allo

[cosmic pelican]

3-4 allos will be pinning healthy ones too

[elfin night]

That would be so miserable

We don’t need 3 ton omni

[cosmic pelican]

I really dont get why they decided to put POUNCE on a nearly 3t animal when balancing it is already such a struggle for the 450kg creature and the 60kg one

Allo will just end up as a balance nightmare I fear

[hasty coyote]

my only hope is that having a 2-3 ton dino that absolutely 1-shots the majority of our current roster with pin will finally get people to realize how abysmal pin is to deal with.

because currently the majority of players think its perfectly fine for omni to just 1-tap anything 1 kg lighter because apparently tracking and biting is too hard and it needs to win instantly with an "ambush" (even though its faster than anything smaller other than gali).

[elfin night]

Its gonna be hilarious if it gets omni math and canni allos can one shot their own

[viscid mica]

@arctic sigil you should think of dilo clones more as damage over time rather than not

[noble spindle]

I'm curious, with the rex and trike coming, I haven't seen the size difference compared to carno for the rex and diablos for the trike, but what's gonna make people play the smaller medium sized if there's bigger and better?

[viscid mica]

#balance-feedback message
@topaz elm this is over all a good suggestion my problem comes from galli buffs as there was a very good reason why galli lost its bleed (its super OP) you can practically bleed out the entire roaster as nothing can catch you except a charging carno and we all know any amount of bleed to carno effectively disables them you can endlessly apply galli bleed with little to no risk and bleed stuff you have no buisness bleeding out

@shadow warren stuff that will be bigger threats to Herrera are planned and talking about rather often I’m just gonna assume you don’t frequent Gen chat or read the dev blogs but I’d recommend scrolling up in #phase-two-archive and #isle-phase-three you can see some concept arts and playables (like quetz and mag) that would be threats too Herrera

[arctic sigil]

I honestly think dilo should be a bleeder like legacy , and their clones should only be for distraction

[viscid mica]

So basically completely redesign they’re kit and make them objectively worse omni?

[arctic sigil]

how is that worse than omni

it literaly was supposed to do that in its concept art

but yea lets let them spam clones without even need to bite when they get purple stage

[viscid mica]

Omni is the small tier bleeder, their entire kit encourages and assists it. Dilos concept art and kit is venom causing for you to slowly die while hallucinating

[topaz elm]

galli receiving bleed again isn't really my biggest concern with it overall
the main point is currently, galli's bleed was way too overpowering and carno couldnt do anything because of its crappy acceleration and nerfs to charge at the time

in almost every situation creatures have the ability to very very easily kill galli currently, Omni can pin and will remain able to pin galli even after the weight increase, carno's main problem was the fact it could never catch a galli with its past acceleration, now with current speeds, turning and changes to charge carno is more than capable of simply chip damaging a galli if it comes down to it.
Other things weak to bleed such as maia I feel would have no problem so long as the player knows what they are doing, one alt attack kick, one shove into a stomp kills galli

its the same with everybody else in the roster
pachy hits galli once to kill it, herrera hits one good pounce, omni presses rmb once, tenonto kicks twice, stego swings once, diablo knocks galli over and gores it, cerato bites galli once it pukes and then cera kills it, dilo bites galli once? twice? and then it has clones to chase galli down. Ptera and beipi can just avoid the whole confrontation

the only creatures who are really dead are troodon and hypsi, who both already die in one kick to galli
even if troodon doesnt die, it'll be knocked down and surely killed with the next one

[viscid mica]

It gets put on way to fast for how strong it is sure

[topaz elm]

Galli with bleed has just as much a right to use it's skill than any other player can one tap galli

[arctic sigil]

herrera is the best bleeder, the best way to kill with omni is going all damage pounce unless you want to fight for 3 hours without reason

[topaz elm]

hell if we wanted to make omni better at bleeding we should take a page from galli, give it a claw slash or something to do pure bleed on the ground

[viscid mica]

Herrera is 175kg and significantly slower than a omni plus it does Aron if damage it’s a glass cannon that can climb trees and turn that area in to a instant death zone

[viscid mica]

If you think that you’ve clearly never got a good group and bleed out a stego

[topaz elm]

thats true of herrera too, herrera can more than easily bleed out large targets

[viscid mica]

It can do a jumping kick

[arctic sigil]

i ve killed stegos with raw damage easier than just bleed

[viscid mica]

Not really anything it would need to bleed can easily 1 tap it

[topaz elm]

well isnt that true of omni too?

stego can one tap omni, diablo and teno do massive amounts of damage in a single hit

trike deals a huge amount of damage

[viscid mica]

Uh huh

[topaz elm]

maia can put an omni down way easier than people think

[arctic sigil]

and? its still the best bleeder in game, you just a few pounces to bleed out anything less than 1.3 tons

[viscid mica]

Carno, cera, dibble and Maia can both be bleed out with relatively ease and none of them can 1 tap you

[arctic sigil]

right they can 2 tap

[topaz elm]

those creatures also have the capabilities to deal massive amounts of damage to omni within seconds

[viscid mica]

I mean you 1 tap most things under 1T

[topaz elm]

carno can charge and do an alt attack bite to kill omni, diablo hits then gores to kill, one cerato bite can put you down as long as it has bacteria

its not a traditional one tap but that one tail nick seals your fate

[arctic sigil]

but what is your point, dilo shouldnt be a bleeder because omni already is?

[viscid mica]

Anyway dilos whole concept for evirma is venom removing it or changing it to be a bleeder just cuz is a bad idea and would make it extremely basic and likely only played by a tiny niche community or what I like to call, the pachy treatment

[viscid mica]

No^

[arctic sigil]

i mean spaming rmb after landing 2 hits at night is already basic

[viscid mica]

Yes venom is currently overtuned doesn’t justify nuking dilo

[arctic sigil]

its not nuking, it would make it a lot funnier to play

[topaz elm]

dilo's venom is supposed to be very deadly yes

the hallucinations are simply a visible format of the damage being taken, it gives you the opportunity to be fair and allows you to fight back

[viscid mica]

Yes because the best strategy for your opponent being wall camping and standing still to heal bleed instantly is thrilling game play

[arctic sigil]

you could increase the amount of bleed it does depending the stage, and if clones spawned correctly and its ai wouldnt be so simple it could be a very good hunter

[viscid mica]

Exactly

[topaz elm]

dilo's venom is neurotoxic and attacks the nervous system, dilo doesnt need to be the isane bleeder it was

[viscid mica]

^^^^^

[viscid mica]

So a bigger troodon?

[topaz elm]

wasnt the reason for the bleed being so high in legacy because the rational was it had anti coagulant venom?

[viscid mica]

Yes

[topaz elm]

yeah as a troodon player, personally we dont need another troodon

[arctic sigil]

thats why clones are for distraction and bait its atack, if he ignore clones he shouldnt recognice you and you could get a bite

[topaz elm]

dilo is fine and fun where it is now

[arctic sigil]

troodon doesnt bleed🙏

• its getting a rework as long as i know

[topaz elm]

I would personally, if possible like to see a change where dilo can see an outline of the hallucination as it spawns so dilo can use it to it's advantage
spawning lots of clones and then rushing prey while they are distracted

[viscid mica]

Imma be real you’d have to be a very new player to not see the difference between a clone and player the movements are very obvious

[arctic sigil]

read my comments again

[viscid mica]

????? lol what? Troodon does bleed quite a good amount at that

[topaz elm]

yeah troodon does a pretty good amount of bleed man

its bleed definitely comes second to damage but its definitely heavy

[arctic sigil]

i ve seen ai footage of carno/teno ai that looks like a real player if they improve the clones movement it should be difficult to know which one is real

[viscid mica]

How would they not recognize you lol?

[arctic sigil]

by improving the ai? lol

[topaz elm]

he does have a point

the new AI does look very promising

[viscid mica]

Ai playables is a terrible idea and I stand by that for many reasons (free food for large+)

[viscid mica]

Even then what stops them from ignoring the clones?

[topaz elm]

the damage the clones deal?

[arctic sigil]

i already said that

[topaz elm]

with the current improvements to ai
i see how they run and fight back, they are gonna make you work for it

[viscid mica]

He is saying remove its damage please check context

[topaz elm]

oh wth?

[viscid mica]

@wanton edge teno is a brawler it’s stam is meant to be good

[arctic sigil]

if they cant barely recognice you from the clones and they ignore them, you should be able to get a hit as they would think you are a clone

[viscid mica]

Please say it again in more depth

[arctic sigil]

rn clones doesnt have the footspets sfx of the real dilo which makes very easy to recognice it + they run in a rect line towards you

[viscid mica]

Ok so just face every clone and if it hits you hit back?

Instantly countered

[arctic sigil]

if you face every clone you get an open ever atack you do so the real one can get a bite

thats what we do in real fights

wait for it to miss a hit and then get a bite

[viscid mica]

So the real one would have to loop behind to attack and would be insanely obvious

Or in essence back to wall camp gameplay I mentioned earlier

[arctic sigil]

reduce the range of vision with fog, easy

[viscid mica]

So make fog so tiny you can’t see or react to anything anyway? Sounds really op

[arctic sigil]

way less than just spaming rmb until you die

[viscid mica]

Yes venom is overtuned and needs adjusting doesn’t justify your “fully remove it” plan

[arctic sigil]

that was just my idea, people are scared of change

[viscid mica]

I don’t mind change if it’s fair change that doesn’t turn a playable into such a rare sighting your impressed people still play it

[wanton edge]

i'm aware of that. but it literally can kick extremely carelessly

[arctic sigil]

it can go wrong as well as it can be very good, perfect example was herrera, everyone didnt like the idea of it climbing and and jumping to kill but now its one of the favourite playables of the community

[viscid mica]

Not exactly but I get how it feels that way

[viscid mica]

???? Herrera was highly anticipated and a lot of people consider it one of the most fun things to play

I legit only remember afew people being worried about its damage most people didn’t care like that

Plus I don’t think dilo would do that much bleed that would be pretty insane and op

It’d have same problem it has now with venom being overtuned

[wanton edge]

it kind of is actually. as of now it takes around 3% stamina, complete mobility during the move and u can regen 3% stam back in a heartbeat. if it's mean to be their heavy hitter it doesn't need to be a stunner, 275 dmg, short cooldown move w such low stamina drain.

[viscid mica]

Brawler that’s all imma say it’s whole thing is running the 1s

[wanton edge]

obviously it's meant to be a brawler but that doesn't necessitate a move that makes the rest of its kit redundant when fighting other animals. there's not a SINGLE fight where u can't just spin around kick and hope for the best.

[worthy steeple]

well thats why 90% of tenos are just spamming the kicks and dying

almost every single animal in the game is stam efficient their own way, teno is not the only animal that can attack many times

[wanton edge]

that's not the case evidently but ok 💀

[noble spindle]

From my experience, tenos can be really good but most r free kills ngl

[wanton edge]

most animals do take a good portion of stamina as well. and their attacks that do take a slight amount typically do not do nearly 300 dmg with no cd.

[worthy steeple]

teno is really complicated for majority of the playerbase, all the attacks behind its back and that confuses people

[wanton edge]

only exception is cera but that alone also needs a nerf.

[worthy steeple]

300 dmg? teno does 250.

[worthy steeple]

cera, dibble

[wanton edge]

it does 275..? rounded

[worthy steeple]

maia uses what, 4% stamina per stomp? and its 175+175 damage

[worthy steeple]

its 250, it got nerfed

[noble spindle]

I think stego needs a nerf lmao

[wanton edge]

where were the stats tested? last time i've seen it does 275

[worthy steeple]

you've seen what exactly? outdated info on wiki?

[wanton edge]

i mean ur're making a claim from what lmao?

[worthy steeple]

it got nerfed during nv changes and carno rework, i tested that myself and test the damage every patch, its 250

tail slam got nerfed from 150 to 100

you're trying to argue using fake info

[wanton edge]

i mean i'm not sure ✨cheesy!✨ is a reliable source. but that still doesn't negate the fact it has ZERO drawbacks and 250 is not bad enough dmg if that was the case to justify the lack of a substantial cooldown, 3% stamina consumption and a stun/stagger.

[worthy steeple]

omg why are you so mad you're going for personal insults lmaoo

[wanton edge]

the other animals attacks that DO take stamina are at least very slow, have an actual cooldown rate, or are lacking some lingering effect. teno's kick literally does every known effect added to this game 😭

[elfin night]

Why? Because ceras can’t kill it reliably?

[wanton edge]

where did i insult u?

[worthy steeple]

"i mean i'm not sure ✨cheesy!✨ is a reliable source." what are you trying to say lol? i tested that, if i tested that myself i know

[noble spindle]

Well yesterday I watch one stego walk into 4 temp, 2 pachys, and a dible and they can't do anything about it and most died

[worthy steeple]

i mean you're the one taking info from wiki instead of testing yourself, how am i not trustable lol

[wanton edge]

yeah..? that's not an insult. is testing stats in the isle that important to u? a questioning of ur reliability got u this hot? 💀

[worthy steeple]

not to mention it was outdated

[slim dragon]

What are temp ?

[noble spindle]

Meant teno, auto corrected

[elfin night]

If the dibble of the herd is an incompetent then yeah stego wins.

And all of them will never get caught by a steg anyway, why even give them tools to fight an animal much larger than them and BUILT to deal damage?

[wanton edge]

bc none of those animals r meant to hunt stego

[elfin night]

I’ve seen two dibbles mopping stegos very consistently

That’s totally fair. If anything stego needs buffing to accommodate rex and trike

[slim dragon]

Well I'm not sure how they all died to a stego, but they could've walked away anyway

[elfin night]

And even then the dibble can just stun it and create openings for the tenos to bleed it out.

[noble spindle]

Yeh I mean they either faced the stego or dropped down the cliff lmao but I get wym

[worthy steeple]

hmm dibble? cera?

teno tail slam uses 3% stamina for 100 damage

maia uses what, 4%? for stomp that does 350

well lets nerf maia stomp to 100 damage, because its so unfair😭 😭 😭 😭

[noble spindle]

Also cera vomit sickness, does that kick in straight away? Or can it trigger after like 30 secs

[wanton edge]

dibbles and maias attacks lock it in place and once again.. they have a cooldown and do not do insane bleed. i do however agree on cera.

[elfin night]

Straight away

[worthy steeple]

tail slam locks in place too, shocking

[noble spindle]

Okay so let's say I got it 30 secs later without being attacked

Is that ping or a cheater?

[slim dragon]

cheater

[wanton edge]

yes, bc tail slam does knockdown.. nothing more nothing less. i'm fine w tailslam taking barely any stamina so what are u getting at?

[elfin night]

If you didn’t get attacked at all it was cheating

[noble spindle]

Okay I thought as much

Clipped it but idk if there's anything you can do without names or anything

[worthy steeple]

i absolutely agree, look at the trike, it does insane bleed and damage, should it take idk.. 50% stamina per attack? it does a lot right?

im just following the same logic here

[wanton edge]

its bleed and dmg are adjusted to fighting animals of similar size. teno can bleed a carno out to death in like 3 kicks 😭.

[slim dragon]

You can report them to admins, they'll do their job

[worthy steeple]

good, as it should

[slim dragon]

If you have a clip it's good enough i guess

[noble spindle]

Well I have the clip, I'll try send it later when I'm home

Lost my dible to 8 ceras and cheating cera and one dible, sad times

[wanton edge]

besides, i do think tenos tail slam should be the main damage dealer. however, ur're missing my entire point about the kick and purposefully being dense and snappy. case closed. 👋

[worthy steeple]

https://tenor.com/view/cat-speech-bubble-cat-drinking-water-stupid-stupid-cat-gif-12327862702270255434

i agree, i want 350dmg tail slam back!

[elfin night]

Maia not being able to kill a fresh spawn cera with a quad lmb is so sad

[worthy steeple]

it does 200 dmg, it should

oh wait lmb. isnt it a headbutt?

[noble spindle]

Will we seen 200+ pop official servers?

[steel stag]

Why are dibbles so laughably Tanky, we were 3 adult Cera's and im pretty Sure i got at least like 4 or 5 Hits in and the other die some as well but he will absolutly not die

[steep gazelle]

complaining about not killing a 3t dibble in 4-5 hits with the 1.3t cerato. Cerato players are funny

[viscid mica]

They are 3 tons

You do a absolute max of 350 with charge bites

You need another 15 ish hits to kill that

[steel stag]

i alone got 3-4 charged hits in, there were 2 more doing damage

[viscid mica]

Assuming your hitting all max charged charge bites

[steel stag]

its not like he only took 3 hits

[viscid mica]

Still you don’t do a lot of damage compared to dibbles health pool

On average a dibble hunt takes around 2 minutes of continuous attacking

As a 3 man cera

Cera barely if at all (doesn’t in my personal opinion) qualify as a mid tier while dibble is well into that weight class

[viscid mica]

Have you guys killed it or did yall die or back off?

[steep gazelle]

Unfortunately, you won't always be able to hunt something easily just because you're playing the most broken and easy-to-play creature in Evrima. Not being able to hunt a single Dibble with 3 Cerato is more about your skill and that of your teammates.

[viscid mica]

@vestal timber that’s the kinda stuff that got pachy nuked lol

Stun locking had nothing should be able to stun lock you you should always have a chance to move away

[vestal timber]

herds will dominate every server... herbivores have a lot of stun and the fact that they usually are 4-5 and just need to hit you ONCE to get u locked

pachy deserves so much better, poor dino, it was so fun when it released

[viscid mica]

I mean funny enough dibble and stego can stun lock each other but they rarely fight so no one ever talking about it, I can see how stego and trike would be abit worse sense stego legit can’t do anything against a trike unless that trike suffers from a MASSIVE skill issue

[viscid mica]

Pachy been done so wrong

[vestal timber]

in officials dibbles kill stegos a lot, its kind of sad the whole clan situation of it... if they cant kill you, they will try until their friends log another stego to finish u off 🫠

i havent played hordetest, but i saw trike even trotted faster than a stego?

sometimes the motto of ''if u cant fight it u can run from it'' is forgotten in isle xd

[steep gazelle]

trike actually had a faster trot, but this was adjusted

[viscid mica]

Not anymore

[vestal timber]

phew... one more issue solved... slowly but surely i guess?

[steep gazelle]

This has been fixed in the latest hordtest updates.

[viscid mica]

Ya I mean that’s when you go in the offensive

I’ve had a 20+ omni and 3 man dibble pack come after my 60% stego once and I took roughly 8-11 omni plus a full dibble with me

[vestal timber]

when they kill everything that moves and get bored ''because there is nothing'' so they all have to go for the only thing they find 💀

[viscid mica]

I mean like it find mix packers funny cuz they always complain about nothing wanting to fight them and they they are 13 deep with cera, dibble, carno, troodons and stegos

[vestal timber]

((not to mention their other 5 accounts))

[viscid mica]

Like I was once playing duo carno fighting a very bad teno and then 3 cera and a carno pull up (mix packed of course with teno) and complained in NA about us running like bruh

[vestal timber]

i had to move to community servers, which isnt bad, just feels a bit more empty because everyone goes to hotspots :/

[viscid mica]

I stay cuz it’s funny when you do kill them and they all rage

Mix packers individually are 99% of the time trash

[vestal timber]

word

[viscid mica]

Plus like I don’t often play stuff slower than them and when I do I immediately bush log if I see big mix packs

Unless I’m stego or deino I’ll take those fights

Fun fact if your head isn’t near stego tail hitbox you can actually tank a lot of hits

As deino

[vestal timber]

wise. ive played way too much isle (6k ish hours with multiple accounts added) so now im seeking for an easier life tbh. give me that community 2X growth yes pls 😂

[viscid mica]

I’m in roughly 3k just abit more between afew accounts

This account is all evirma

My legacy acc got hacked and I eventually got it deleted