balance-feedback-discussion

[dusky surge]

i didn't even mention the fact that having cerato's bile link to hunger is just weird

[alpine plover]

What makes it weird?

[tulip tusk]

Oh that confused me for a solid minute

[regal tulip]

i mean tbf bile should make you vomit earlier the MORE food you have in your stomach

[regal tulip]

this way it would be able to fulfill its role of being able to bully people of their bodies way better

[dusky surge]

wouldn't that be the opposite?

in that scenario, you're making it that the hungrier an animal is, the better they are at dealing with cerato

which means cerato would be less effective as a corpse bully, because on a full stomach, you also have little reason to care about a corpse

[regal tulip]

exactly, i feel that cerato right now is the one walking up to the corpse more than the one sitting on it because they just hold E on it until its gone

somebody kills something, starts to eat -> cera smells corpse and walks up -> other dino leaves because it doesnt want to lose the food and nutrients it just gained

[regal tulip]

maybe it shouldnt be tied to hunger at all tbh

[dusky surge]

that's what im tryna say lol

[west plank]

I don't think there is a problem with cera's features right now, I think there is no need for them.

[alpine plover]

@dusky surge is your augmented tapetum suggestion your most upvoted suggestion? 94 upvotes, damn

[dusky surge]

i know you don't think so. You've said so many a time. Doesn't mean I'll change my opinion on the matter, because I've had to deal with cerato's features right now, and they are the antithesis of fun or engaging to deal with

[dusky surge]

i have no idea

[sleek sierra]

Forget to switch accounts?

Oh... wait....

Nevermind, I see it now. 😂

[vale brook]

we see all

[deft blaze]

Know all

[leaden remnant]

#balance-feedback message hell naw if you get pinned you should die

[dusky surge]

you really love that image

[leaden remnant]

i just send it so i dont have to explain anything 👍

[dusky surge]

even though the fact that it doesn't apply to most of the situations provided lol

[leaden remnant]

(it does)

[dusky surge]

a galli is not a rabbit compared to omni lol

[leaden remnant]

i know but he wasn't talking about a galli

he was talking about something beipi size and above

[dusky surge]

yes, but you still use the image in that context lol

[leaden remnant]

i know it's just a general thing i send instead of having to explain it word by word

and also since it's the words of kissen it's just an easy way to add a "nope"

[dusky surge]

LMAO

[alpine plover]

Every time they post that image someone post this as a counter lol

[dusky surge]

https://tenor.com/view/ultrakill-brick-parry-gif-27597104

[leaden remnant]

the counter is here no way

doesn't invalidate what she said tho 🤷‍♂️

(she right, if a mountain lion jumps a rabbit, it's over)

[dusky surge]

is a galli a rabbit

because you use the same argument against galli v omni

If we're going by mountain lion v rabbit, that's just kinda omni v hypsi in Isle terms lol

[leaden remnant]

when was i talking about gallis man

[dusky surge]

last time you used that image iirc

[leaden remnant]

im talking about smaller things

should gallis be pinnable? yes, but they should be able to knock raptors down with a kick and take less time to grow than a raptor

because if they're not pinnable it's literally game over for raptors

cant run cant hide cant do anything

[alpine plover]

Things like beipi still should have a chance at fighting back and escaping instead of just “game over”

[dusky surge]

The mountain lion and rabbit in question:

[leaden remnant]

no too small

[molten willow]

Beipi is way too small

Realistically would never make it out alive if it got pinned by an omni what lol

Literally instant death shouldn't even take as long as it does

Realistically

[keen plover]

Honestly only things around the 300kg range + should have a chance imo. Stuff like Austro and galli mainly

[alpine plover]

If we are talking realism that’s just false. Animals irl still put up a fighting chance if their within close size proximity against there attacker. Most surely the beipi would put those claws to use instead of squirming around on the floor

[vale brook]

theres a reason dondi has alluded to animals fighting back against deino lunges lately

[keen plover]

I mean beipi technically does fight back lol

It defends itself from the front

[molten willow]

They are not in close proximity at all what

[molten willow]

I agree with this

[leaden remnant]

galli would be a tough one but a beipi would die before hitting the ground

you underestimate raptors, the beipi would get beheaded in an instant

[alpine plover]

In size yes, in mass no

Omni and Beipi is not equivalent to “mountain lion and a rabbit”

[slim dragon]

omni is overweight

[distant torrent]

realism isn’t really a good argument when a lot of mutations already go against realism and dip more into fantasy. either small playables are given a chance, or no one really wants to play them because they’re basically a waste of time with how common omnis are (I doubt their growth will be reduced because I’m very certain it’s long to encourage people to be less risky and not throw their life away)

[analog mirage]

Honestly I wouldn’t mind Omni getting lowered to like 375kg

[young iron]

We need the running alt-bite back but only in a degree in the front of the player.

[distant torrent]

tbh I wouldn’t mind that either lol

[leaden remnant]

everyone else would ngl

[analog mirage]

Why

Look at that thing it’s skin and bone

[slim dragon]

rn omni is filled with lead

The fact it's heavier than galli is hilarious

[analog mirage]

Tbf Gali is just really tall

I would say both seem around the same weight, Gali slightly bigger

[slim dragon]

I really need a picture of them both standing side-by-side
Galli is bigger by a good margin

[slim dragon]

Do you have an in-game screenshot ?

[alpine plover]

oh, nah

[leaden remnant]

because it wouldn't really make sense

and barely anyone would support it

feels like saying "we should make stego 4.5 tons instead of 6"

just what's the point

[distant torrent]

I for one would support it

[slim dragon]

The point is omni not being filled with lead

Also giving more breathing room for small/medium tiers so they don't fall into the "gets invalidated by a single omni pounce" category

Would also make the difference between omni and upcoming Utah clearer

[distant torrent]

that’d still happen tbh unless it costs more stam to hold prey down. a full adult omni can still pin another full adult omni and kill it with a good chunk of stam left over

[analog mirage]

For something so small 450kg is fairly big and lets it take a good amount of hits

[leaden remnant]

you and 5 other ppl

[analog mirage]

I just think they are a bit too bulky for what they need to be

[leaden remnant]

450kg is not small considering everything we have

[distant torrent]

I’m sure there’s more

[leaden remnant]

you salty and 3 other ppl

like it just wouldn't make any sense ngl, there's no need

[distant torrent]

a considerable amount of people aren’t happy with Omni’s current pin and grapple so there’s definitely some people who would agree with it because it’s a nerf to omni lol

[analog mirage]

Considering average damage outputs. A raptor can tank 2 Headshots from a Carno

[distant torrent]

#general-feedback message this is a good example

[leaden remnant]

the first one puts you to orange/red 🤷‍♂️

[analog mirage]

This is more so grapple needing to be tweaked than Omni itself

[leaden remnant]

pin and grapple isn't the same as weight

[analog mirage]

It would be yellow

[distant torrent]

it is because weight affects what you can pin or grapple

[leaden remnant]

easier to just tweak pin or pounce to pin then

instead of nerfing weight and buffing many aspects so it isn't dogwater

[analog mirage]

175 X 1.5 is 262.5. That’s still over half your health

[distant torrent]

it’ll still have devastating bleed, great agility, and the ability to invalidate playables with grapple and pin

[leaden remnant]

okay so it puts you to orange

[distant torrent]

I wouldn’t call it dogwater

[leaden remnant]

devastating bleed?

what's devastating is herrera/teno/stego

[distant torrent]

omni has great bleed

[leaden remnant]

raptor aint got devastating bleed

[distant torrent]

it’s a bleeder

[leaden remnant]

great doesn't equal devastating

it's got pretty good bleed, yea i agree

but it ain't got devastating bleed

[distant torrent]

it can bleed out and hunt the entire roster except for deino though that’s still possible

[hasty coyote]

For its size it’s devastating, it can nearly 1-shot things of a similar size

[analog mirage]

Yellow. Because yellow is up to half your health

[leaden remnant]

even a juvie carno can do that

doesn't mean it's easy

[distant torrent]

omni has a far easier time though

[distant torrent]

it just deals more bleed

[leaden remnant]

obviously, it's a bleeder

[distant torrent]

which is why it won’t be dogwater

[analog mirage]

Headshot multiplier is 1.5 not 2

[leaden remnant]

wait im stupid youre right

[leaden remnant]

bleed doesnt mean everything

it can bleed so let's do a pretty big nerf

[analog mirage]

So yes, raptor can sit there and tank 2 headshots from a Carno or Cerato (unless it’s charged bite)

[leaden remnant]

easier to get 1 tapped by practically everything if it weights 375

[analog mirage]

Yes and no

[hasty coyote]

Wait, 175*1.5 = 262.5, which is more than half of omni’s hp (450/2 = 225)

[analog mirage]

It still gets one tapped to stuff with 300 + base attacks like charged bite, kick and charge

The change is mainly to not make it so Tanky against regular bites

[hasty coyote]

Omni would be at orange after a headshot

[leaden remnant]

wait true wtf how did i get trolled this hard

[analog mirage]

It’s all good

[leaden remnant]

it aint tanky against regular bites...

im genuinely losing my braincells here

[analog mirage]

The fact that it can tank 2 headshots from both Carno and Ceratos bites says otherwise

[leaden remnant]

it gets 1 tapped by a cera charge

it gets put to 1hp with a carno ram to the face

(they made it so it doesn't get 1 tapped anymore)

is this not enough for you?

it gets put to deep yellow/orange by practically everything, it ain't tanky

[hasty coyote]

I don’t think a weight reduction is needed, I just think bucking needs buffs, scraping off on terrain needs some adjustments, pounce to pin needs to have a higher treshold, and pin needs to cost more stam.

[leaden remnant]

bucking needs a rework imo

if you significantly buff the amount of stam it takes from a raptor, we're just done

cause with how slow it is n thresholds, one buck marks the end of the fight

[hasty coyote]

It just needs to be useful without burning both prey and predators stam bars. Because if it’s too prey sided, omnis literally can’t kill things, and if it’s too Omni sided then bucking is useless.

[leaden remnant]

i agree

[hasty coyote]

Personally, I hope they just make bucking literally force the Omni to dismount after a bit, but it prevents the target from attacking for like 1/4th of a second as the Omni gets off.

[leaden remnant]

i would say half a second

and the timing randomized yknow

and even then, eh, i kinda don't like that idea

it's not bad tho

i just prefer if we could go back to how things once worked

[hasty coyote]

It would just need to be enough for the Omni to not get impaled instantly.

Also no, not random. Rng in combat is horrible.

[leaden remnant]

(buck taking quite a lot of stamina from you but the raptor gets it fairly quickly)

which would obviously require the devs to do the thing they refuse to: slap back our good old stam

[hasty coyote]

Can’t really happen unless they rework stam back. Which I don’t see happening.

[leaden remnant]

yup i agree

i don't see it happening anytime soon

maybe in 1-2 years if they finally realize it gives too many problems

but till then, we gotta stay with the current problems

[hasty coyote]

Both have problems.

[leaden remnant]

i also agree

imma go for a bit but out of curiosity can you tell me all the problems you see with old stam

genuinely curiosity not this "yeah im curious" "no this is wrong you're an idiot!!!"

[golden coral]

Let's not give people ideas, you know there's someone out there thinking that'd be great!

[leaden remnant]

lmao

[bright oasis]

Actually they plan on reworking bucking since it's not doing so hot atm

[leaden remnant]

epic

[hasty coyote]

sorry had to do other things for a bit, heres the main thing:
Current stam benefits those who have a high stam pool (stuff like teno)
Old stam benefits those who burn stam quickly (stuff like omni)

Like old stam felt kinda bad for herbies and other dinos who stood their ground and died the moment they ran out of stam, because you could literally count how many attacks they had before they died with your fingers. New stam allows them to essentially fight for 2x to 3x as long, so just baiting out a few attacks aint enough to kill them. Except for stego which has insane stam costs on its attacks for some reason, its in the worst of both worlds. Burns though stam quickly and regens it slow.

However, new stam really hurts omni because the ONLY limitation for how long you can pounce is stam (or if the target scrapes you off). As such, they have to make sure your stam literally runs out before you can 1-shot things like pachy, else you get the omni right after the stam adjustments who could tank a pachy's buck for all its stam and 1-shot pachy. Thus, they have to make pounce burn through stam insanely quickly to put a limit, but the current stam makes the limit the absolute LIMIT.

So, essentially, omni needs a different limiter on pounce because using stam for its limiter is too harsh.

[dusky surge]

#balance-feedback message
#balance-feedback message

https://tenor.com/view/simpsons-stop-hes-already-dead-gif-10174413

i cannot fathom how people see the current stego, with the almost dozen nerfs its gotten since its launched, in a state almost as bad as it was before the rekit, and go "hmmm, not enough"

[golden coral]

@elder steppe The new attack has already been overnerfed and is pretty bad now, why does it need to be even worse? If they remove the cooldown and restore the stamina cost to something reasonable, then maybe they could put a "timer" on it like cera bite, but just making the attack even worse off with no compensation what so ever will only make the rekit even more pointless.

@smoky trout No, the last thing stego needs is even more stam drain on an attack that's already nerfed severely, with far too high stamina cost to use and a cooldown on top of that. And making it even slower while running with it, how is it supposed to even hit anything then, since everything's already faster anyway.

[dusky surge]

im fine with a timer on it, but on top of everything else? Absurd.

[kindred abyss]

IMO Stego isn't meant to act as a lone wolf tank. It should be dependent on a group in order to get security. Although i feel that none in the current roster is supposed to be able to 1v1 a fully grown Stego. In nature you often attack the weak or young if you cant attack an adult.

I hope that the devs will be able to make being a herbie more intriguing/interesting, so that people actually want to roam as a herd.

Shoutout to herbies

[leaden remnant]

good point

[golden coral]

No, nothing should rely on a group to be viable in the first place, that's far from ideal. And stego is hardly a tank anyway with its low weight and extra weakness on head, especially compared to the other large critters. But stego should be solo/pair at most, it's terribly designed for group defense in the first place. Not that any large critter like that should come in groups, I'd rather not see trike or acro or rex come in groups either. And sure, nothing in current roster should be able to solo it, but the issue there is more so that it rarely requires a full group or even near, or in some cases that even a full group shouldn't be able to do anything simply due to size difference or design. But that's a lack of scaling for some abilities, and overall stego just being, still, rather badly designed due to how overnerfed the rekit has been.

[dusky surge]

stego is also one of the worst herders in the history of the game. Its slow, clunky attacks are exceptionally likely to do friendly fire, and it lacks the ability to defend others in its herd in any meaningful way. It excels far further as a solo animal

Not to mention, as Erik said, NOTHING should require herds/groups to survive, otherwise you've set an animal for failure

[kindred abyss]

If it sounded like I think that a Stego should never be able to survive without a group, that's not what I meant. My point is that no dinosaur should comfortably be able to survive on their own from baby to adult. Especially herbies.

There should be, IMO, something that makes herd animals act like herd animals... would be strange if they didn't.

[golden coral]

There is, there is already generally a bonus by having someone else around, but no one should need dit to survive. A carni should not need a pack to successfully hunt and survive, and a herbi should not need a herd to successfully survive either.

[kindred abyss]

A herbie can literally eat the ground, it's not difficult to survive as one xD

[dusky surge]

the statement "I hope that the devs will be able to make being a herbie more intriguing/interesting, so that people actually want to roam as a herd." is antithetical to the idea of making stego herd reliant. People will NEVER choose an animal that is codependent on other animals of its kind existing over an independent animal that can survive without needing to rely on others, because:

• What if people log off?
• What if I can't find others of my kind?
• What if I'm the last man standing of my herd? Am I just screwed?

Lots of factors that make group-reliant animals unwilling to rely on groups. Also, again, stego sucks as a herd animal

[golden coral]

With that said, some critters work better in a group than others, teno and stego do worse than diablo or dryo. Omni and troodon do better than cera and deino because of how their abilities work.

[kindred abyss]

Why do people play games like Overwatch, Dota, WoW if noone wants to cooperate?

[dusky surge]

I mean, that's not objectively a bad thing. Herbi has the comfort and consistency of satisfying its resource needs through PvE, at the cost of most of the time not being able to pick its PvP encounters, or being exceptionally subject to PvP

[dusky surge]

Because the respawn times don't take 6 hours.

[kindred abyss]

When does a respawn take 6h`?

[dusky surge]

When you lose an adult stego, and want another adult stego.

[kindred abyss]

Dont lose your adult stego then. isnt that the point of the game? Herd-up and get security

[dusky surge]

You've fundamentally missed the point

[kindred abyss]

I see that as a reason to go cooperate

[golden coral]

Yes, herbi is meant to be easier than carni, that doesn't change that neither side, nor any playable, should require a group to be viable and survive when it comes to just staying alive. And while being outnumbered is a thing, it also depends on the sides, 8 omnis vs a rex isn't "outnumbered" because the rex should require at least that many omnis to "match" it for example.

[kindred abyss]

Please enlighten me

[dusky surge]

NO ONE will play stego if they need a herd to survive, so you will never find a herd

[kindred abyss]

Im not saying you NEED a herd. It gets easier with a herd

[dusky surge]

Because independent dinos exist, who can work with and without a pack/herd, so why would you EVER play the forced herder

[dusky surge]

Sure, that's applicable to all, I'm explaining why stego should arguably be able to survive any creature entirely solo

[leaden remnant]

there's gotta be a limit to that tho

[kindred abyss]

There are people looking for a cooperative experience. Don't understand how you dont see that

[leaden remnant]

like 4 ceras vs a lone stego... man

stego should be given hell on earth with that one

[kindred abyss]

As an adult with the current roster, sure. But it should be the norm

[dusky surge]

Yes, and they won't play stego for that, because there are creatures that offer a cooperative experience while also being perfectly fine solo

[dusky surge]

I still think cerato is grossly overtuned in fights against larger creatures, and needs an entire overhaul if rex/trike are intended to be added soon

[kindred abyss]

Thats your opinion though. I'd love for a pack of stegos, but in the current state of the game it gives me no joy to play herbie.

[golden coral]

No, it's not "herd up or die" or "pack up or die", imagine if you had to have at least 4 omnis to be able to do anything. Doesn't sound like much fun, does it. And you also do need to take size difference into account. Which is why "outnumbered" isn't really a good measure.

[kindred abyss]

Dont you guys agree that there is a lack of herbies in general in the game?

[dusky surge]

Yes.

[kindred abyss]

So, how do you get people to WANT to play them?

[golden coral]

Not really, cera should not be going after much things, much less such large things. But currently four ceras would take on a rex and win so there's that

[dusky surge]

Because

• Pachy is bad
• Stego is clunky
• Teno is overshadowed by dibble
• Dryo and hypsi are unfinished

[kindred abyss]

It's like playing healers in other games, you are not designed to do the thing that the game is created for. Hunt and kill other creatures.

Give me a good reason to play an herbie, and ill do it.

[dusky surge]

What? What does healers have to do with herbis?

[kindred abyss]

They share the same lack of purpose in a game.

[golden coral]

You make them fun, engaging, and sufficiently powerful that people don't feel that going the carni is better. You also make them easier to survive as (no AI for carnis!) and so on. You give them good, interesting kits and let them use it. You basically make it so herbi is the main thing to go, and carni is the "I want to do hardcore souls game" mode.

[leaden remnant]

i know, but it doesn't change the fact that cera is a great stego killer yknow

[dusky surge]

• Migrations are restrictive
• Carnivores tend to have more going for them

[golden coral]

... How does a healer not have a purpose in the game in question?

[golden coral]

True, and it will be the same for other things

[leaden remnant]

yup

[leaden remnant]

honestly im curious here, why is pachy bad?

[dusky surge]

Yea, because cera is an insanely overtuned hunter that specifically specialises in large game hunting, because bacteria is just universally brutal to everything, even if a juvi cera bites an adult stego

[golden coral]

Pachy from what I know is also a bit clunky, I imagine it might be that

[leaden remnant]

probably

[kindred abyss]

You act as a battery for the players who actually play the game. It's a way different experience. So you need to solve the issue of purpose and reward in a different way.

I'd like for the purpose and reward to be cooperation and socialization with herbies.

[dusky surge]

• Low damage
• Low speed
• Still has a godawful trot speed
• Exceptionally clunky charged attack (meanwhile cera's is FAR more useful and responsive)
• Reliant on specific fractures in many fights
• Multiple mutations exist specifically to make it get obliterated (speed on cera, damage resist on omni, fracture resist on anything)
• Completely incapacitated by a single pounce
• Entirely vulnerable after a missed ram
• Entirely vulnerable after a hit ram

[golden coral]

I feel like cooperation fits better for specific playables

Since we can have both social and solitary playables on both sides

[dusky surge]

Like galli, who is genuinely very rewarded for it

[leaden remnant]

i see, however most of those things are things that should be there, and other things are invalidated by its capabilities like:

low damage (excepting the head) but can basically make you useless in a single hit
low speed cause otherwise it would be a hunter
yes
clunky as hell
all fractures do wonders, but there's better ones and worse ones yes
the mutation things are balls
they removed the incapacitated thing by a pounce
if it wasn't vulnerable, it would be unkillable
if it wasn't vulnerable after a hit ram, we would have the murder groups back and it would be absolute chaos. hit once n leave

imma be honest, besides the clunky as hell works whenever it wants ram, pachy is pretty good rn

[kindred abyss]

We can, but the herbies will never have the purpose of a hunt. Food isn't an issue, so security is the only issue they can have atm. If you are a solitary herbi, what is your purpose?

[dusky surge]

then where are all the pachies

[leaden remnant]

playing dibble

[dusky surge]

lmao

[leaden remnant]

and teno

[dusky surge]

because pachy sucks, yea

[leaden remnant]

pachy (gameplay wise) sucks

not combat wise

[dusky surge]

pachy sucks combat wise too, don't get it twisted lol

[leaden remnant]

no it doesn't, it can fracture you in one hit

[shy quiver]

"Tank, healer, damage dealer" as a concept is true in most multiplayer experiences. We all know most players want to be the damage dealer (in this game that would be the carnivore). It's a constant struggle to encourage players to play as anything else. There is a real problem in the Isle in the lack of herbivore players, AKA the other two categories. Obviously, there's no healing or buffing other players so what else than surviving (eg healing yourself) is there to do as a herby? 😅 Gotta ask yourslef why it's so compelling to play as a carnivore? How might you get the same excitement as another role. 😁

[leaden remnant]

it only needs one hit to make you completely useless

[dusky surge]

"completely useless" is uh, not how I've tended to find it lol

[leaden remnant]

unless it's a body fracture, yeah

body fracture isn't as good, takes a lotta time to heal

[golden coral]

Survive, grow old, get elder, nest, get perks, establish a legacy if possible (family tree and all), and so on, the same as for a carni, really. Only difference there is one needs to kill to survive (unless scavenger) while the other does not (unless scarcity of food, which should be a thing anyway).

[leaden remnant]

head fracture ends a fight and leg fracture ends a fight

if pachies had the ability to kill people with fractures only, it would be chaotic

so it's good that a pachy can only fracture you and not kill you unless you're same size or smaller

[shy quiver]

Would you still play if it was all AI?

[kindred abyss]

And where do you get the excitement from? The only herbies i see atm are teaming up with Carnos to break legs. Joining in the hunt, AND plays socially

[leaden remnant]

or unless in a group

[shy quiver]

You can do all those things as a herby easier without other players.

[dusky surge]

no, it's why i think dino AI sucks

[shy quiver]

So key is social interaction. Meaningful social exchange. Carnivores enjoy domination, it's the most impactful you can be in the game

Problem is you can never have the same impact or sense of action as a herby, unless you focus on the collaboration 😁

[golden coral]

Fair, but I would say that comes down to it being too easy overall to survive, for both carnis and herbis. Hence you get hotspots, and deathmatch, and no care for surviving at all. Being social should still be more for species than diet, we don't want every carni to be solitary, and every herbi to be social. Otherwise we can't have omnis, and can't have anky or trike (or shant, or even brachi, unless you want them in herds too, not sure how that would go for balance at all).

[shy quiver]

For sure all shouldn't be the same, but it's when you have an established norm you can create variety to differ and build on more complexity. 😁

[kindred abyss]

Why can't we have them if they group up with others?

[kindred abyss]

Im not saying "every carni this and every herbie that". I'm pointing out that noone plays herbie and there is a good reason for it.

[golden coral]

Herbis are already naturally more relaxed due to well, not wanting to eat each other. But there should still be conflict and struggle, especially for larger and more powerful herbis. Carnis are already more wary of each other, and even the more friendly species have their cannibals and so on. So there's no issue there, it's just that some playables would be basically invincible if in group due to their power otherwise.

[kindred abyss]

When they introduce T-Rex and Spino i think it will get even rougher to be a herbie, especially a big solitary one xD

[golden coral]

More so that if you argue that herbis should be social, and carnis not, then omni being a social carni would not be a thing, and stego being a solitary herbi would not be a thing either. And I'm arguing that stego for example, being big and powerful, should not come in groups, because if so, it possibly becomes invincible.

[golden coral]

There is, because game too easy to survive in, carnis don't actually fail hunts, and so on.

[dusky surge]

yea, because in the case of stego, they aren't at all prepared for them lol

[golden coral]

So no reason not to go carni for more fights and fun, and better and easier ways to do that

[golden coral]

No doubt, but at least trike and anky might do fine

[kindred abyss]

But im not arguing that all carnies should be solo all the time and all herbies must be in a group all the time. Where do you get this from?

[golden coral]

"My point is that no dinosaur should comfortably be able to survive on their own from baby to adult. Especially herbies.

There should be, IMO, something that makes herd animals act like herd animals... would be strange if they didn't."

To which I've pointed out not all herbis are herd animals

[kindred abyss]

Where in this does it say "all carnies should be solo forever" and "all herbies should be grouped forever"?

[golden coral]

You argued stego should be in herds for safety, I'm arguing stego is not a playable that should be in a herd/group in the first place, and not one that does well in a group at that

Did I ever argue that you said things should be solo/grouped forever?

[shy quiver]

Why would Stego not be a good herd dino? 🤔

You don't need to punish being solitary, you can buff/boost being in a group to encourage.

[kindred abyss]

"Should be in herds for safety" != "Should be in a herd in order to survive"

[dusky surge]

It's never been good at it. Big, clunky attacks that are insanely good at friendly fire

[golden coral]

Due to how its attacks work, it's slow, clunky, massive risk for collateral

[dusky surge]

Okay, but that's already how it is, so I'm unsure what you're arguing for?

[shy quiver]

There's no game mechanics to support it for herby though, you're building a case for not doing it due to friendly fire

[kindred abyss]

Do you see anyone play herbies as a group? The way it is setup atm does not work apparently.

[dusky surge]

That's because there are no herbis to group with, because the base experience, solo or otherwise, currently is unsatisfying

[kindred abyss]

As a herbie, yes

[kindred abyss]

That is my entire point

[golden coral]

Right, but did I ever argue you said that things should be in group/on their own forever? And I did agree that having a group is more or less useful in all cases. But when you put it as "for safety" it kind of comes off as "you die if not", though that could be because I've seen a lot of people argue exactly the latter. So I'll apologize for maybe misjudging what you were actually trying to say.

[dusky surge]

It is not a basis of "herbis should be encouraged to group", because irregardless, no one is playing them. Their solo gameplay should be improved to see a bolstering of their herding gameplay

[golden coral]

I mean, yes, various playables due to their mechanics get more or less out of being in a group. And have an easier or harder time working together.

[shy quiver]

If you're going for realism and immersion surely they'd want larger herds of herbivores, and some smaller herds of carnivores hunting them. Again not EVERRYONE would be played that way

[golden coral]

If being herbi is more fun in the first place, you'll see more of them around, no matter if they're in a group or not

[shy quiver]

Stegosaurus was supposedly a herd animal

[kindred abyss]

Totally agree

[golden coral]

But then you get balance issues

Would it be cool to see a herd of 10 trikes, yes. Would it do well for balance... probably not.

[shy quiver]

Can it be solved

[golden coral]

Maybe, but I doubt it, because how do you solve it without making the solo experience bad? Or do we simply accept that a herd of trikes is untouchable?

[kindred abyss]

And how do you make them fun without a purpose other than waiting?

[shy quiver]

What do you think would make it fun and meaningful to play as a herby? From my experience, the best moments in the game so far have been when I've met other players and collaborated, lost, failed or backstabbed.

[golden coral]

I'd start with giving survival a purpose, in some way. Not entirely sure how, but the main point of the game is to remain alive, grow old, die peacefully and do it all over again. And well, maybe that's all there is to it.

[golden coral]

I'm not sure it's fun when you spend 2 hours+ traveling with some subadult stegos, go to migration zone, help them find food and all. Only for them to kill you as you try to log out, for no apparent reason aside from "wanted to". But maybe you like being backstabbed more than I do.

As to what makes it fun being a herbi, being actually good at survival and being the one that comes out on top vs the carni far more often than not. Being able to better survive overall, and more often get elder. You lose out on "I can go around and hunt stuff" in return for "I can make the hunters fail".

[kindred abyss]

Example of a social interaction mechanic between herbies, "Territories".

A group of Stegos hold a piece of land where lots of food is growing. (It will show up as territory owned by "Stego-group")
Trikes are hungry. Trikes moves in on Stego territory. Compass starts blinking for Stegos.

Stegos has a few choices:

• Fight off the intruders wanting your food
• Let them in and eat, perhaps they are friendly
• Flee before you get attacked.

Trikes can either:

• Move in towards the food and hope the Stegos are nice
• Start a "takeover of territory"-event, initializing an attack.
• Back out of the territory.

Also make sure they can't communicate, other than with grunts and noises. (Thats an exciting part of how interactions between Horde/Alliance work in WoW)

[golden coral]

Territories would be cool, but that would be a mechanic of it's own. Also currently wouldn't fit with migrations, but might in the future, depending on how migrations end up being.

[dusky surge]

• Diversifying migrations. It isn't particularly riveting to be trapped in a single locale most of your life. Allowing animals to roam more, adding more than one migration zone in a single migration, adding more places to migrate to (west comes to mind) would be possible ideas to get more momentum in terms of fun factor
• Elders. People who wanna engage with elders would have an easier time as a herbi, who often spends more time gaining resources from the environment than constant combat
• Finishing what we have/actually providing some herbis unique niches. Carnivores have flight, diving, venom, climbing, etc. Herbis have usually just attacks and movement, not much else. Burrowing/climbing/other unique elements to diversify herbis from other creatures would be a big bonus

[golden coral]

Though I don't think we'd want stegos and trikes near each other, potential for mixing might be there. Would make more sense if it's trikes or stegos fighting their own kind over a territory, would also offer wounded trikes and stegos for hunters to come for.

But I'd be happy if I could claim an area for myself and defend it against others that would want it too. I do want herbis to fight each other more often, assuming there's some balance there too.

[mint star]

god this triggered my "chatGPT" mental response

[kindred abyss]

I really think you need to introduce new mechanics to this game. It's way too bare bones for herbies to play.

[mint star]

ive seen to many of those posts in the feedback channels lately

[dusky surge]

Yea except I'm greater than the machine

Also you can tell its me because I use a bunch of random slang words in the middle of my otherwise essay-type bullhockey for complete tonal whiplash

[kindred abyss]

They should dump migrations completely IMO. Let herbies build their own "migration".
You could connect other buffs/mechanics to territories. Like growth-rate, nesting only in territories.
Perhaps have a "social"-meter that acts like the "hunger"-meter but fills up by socializing, being near/"nudging" each other, talking to each other and so on .

[leaden remnant]

how bout stegos being in groups of 2-3 max?

[cedar beacon]

Does stego gain more weight during growth than Deino?

[leaden remnant]

if stegos had to be able to fend off large threats by themselves, a pair/small group would be invincible

[leaden remnant]

yeah

[cedar beacon]

OK ty

[leaden remnant]

stego gains a lot of weight whereas deino takes super super long to gain any weight

so it's basically the opposite (stego takes no time, deino takes a looooooooooooooooooooong time)

[leaden remnant]

i would agree with dumping migrations

it's not a bad idea in my opinion but has also proven to do nothing good

[dusky surge]

hard disagree with that

[dusky surge]

that'd be more reasonable

[leaden remnant]

you can't even find herbis in migrations 🤷‍♂️

[dusky surge]

No. Stego starts off bigger, but due to its lower weight and recently nerfed growth speed, often deino will outpace it in growth

[leaden remnant]

how much does a stego weight at 50%

[dusky surge]

Don't recall off the top of my head

[leaden remnant]

alr

erik do you know how much a stego weighs at 50%?

[kindred abyss]

The entire game is about life and death. You getting backstabbed is another beautiful way to die. It's the thought of "will he backstab me?" that makes it exciting.

[golden coral]

Pairs are fine, I guess I can go with trio (same for acro, seeing as they are both on the weaker end of apex/large), but not more than that. We got kentro for a small stegosaur like critter for herds, just like we got maia for a herding version of a shant and diablo for trike and so on. I think the large critters should be solitary/pairs and be more of a threat to their own kind than to the others (especially for herbi, we don't want trike and stego mixing, and they will if they can).

[leaden remnant]

yeah i agree, anything over 3 stegos is too crazy imo

precisely yesterday i was with some fellow raptors fighting against 8 stegos

[dusky surge]

3 stegos are fine for what the animal is supposed to represent lol, I can't see why it'd need more. I still stand by my point that solo stego is godawful now

[leaden remnant]

you cant imagine how painful that was

of course they ended up splitting n all cause they couldn't survive but bro

most of them were big juvies (1 ton ish) but man

[dusky surge]

i mean... that is kinda on them for taking on EIGHT stegos lol

[leaden remnant]

yus

[golden coral]

Kind of agree, I think it depends on how they do migrations. I don't think rare, serverwide migrations are bad, or even smaller ones for a given species. But I do also want to be able to stake out a claim and have a territory and not migrate if I don't want to. At the cost of having to defend that area due to food scarcity and so on, instead of migrating to where the food is abundant. As for more interactions/emotes, I wouldn't mind that. I would like the calls to be expanded upon as well, and so on. Not sure on adding any meters though, I feel like it should be more down to the playable and how the player wants to interact.

[leaden remnant]

it's absolutely on us, but im just saying it as a funny tale

it isn't really relevant to this convo, it's just hilarious imo

we were in the vc saying "theres 2 more stegos comin- NEVERMIND THATS 5 STEGOS COMING"

"theres another fg stego coming"

"bro theres ANOTHER fg stego coming WTF"

[dusky surge]

Migrations being a special event is how I think it should be. Food usually should be spread out, unless a migration occurs, in which case you can take the time to form herds, nest with the bounty of food in one place, etc

[leaden remnant]

probably

[golden coral]

I don't know, I don't find it too exciting, but people are free to play how they want. And yes, the game is all about life and death, but I do think there's more or less reasonable ways to play. Friendly call and spend hours with someone only to kill them when they try to log out is a bit questionable. But that would also make for an argument to not group up, since you can not trust anyone, not even your own kind. So I'll stick with solo more often than not!

[leaden remnant]

i personally never group up and leave the group + run if im gonna log off

not taking any chances

[golden coral]

... And this is why stegos need to have a way harsher requirement for sustaining themselves

[leaden remnant]

yus

[kindred abyss]

This is you being to trusy IMO. I leave group and run and hide when trying to log.

[golden coral]

Normally do that too, this was a one off, but it was still a little questionable of them to do that. Like omni cannibals, it's perfectly fine and game even encourages it with the mutation, but still not something people neccesarily like.

[dusky surge]

horned melons:

[golden coral]

Could have, but do keep in mind substegos are faster than adults, so if they really wanted it, they could have just followed me

In this case, sure, I was too trusting, or well, didn't care enough, but that doesn't really make it less of a rather sad way to die

[golden coral]

Yeah okay, but still

[dusky surge]

horned melons are nuts lol, they need to fix whatever that is, because there's "hard to sustain" and then there's whatever that is

[leaden remnant]

might as well murk them then

if they're becoming "weird", yknow

[kindred abyss]

Imagine being in a herd, the others would exile that player 😉

[leaden remnant]

i would personally thagomize their head into oblivion

[golden coral]

Again, faster, and with more stam, being subs.

But yes, otherwise it's just smack whatever it is if it gets too close and seems weird

[golden coral]

Or they might be in on it, far more likely at that

Considering it was 4 substegos around at that point, I'd call that a herd

[leaden remnant]

yus

[kindred abyss]

Then you're the odd one out in their culture. Unfortunately..

[golden coral]

Not entirely sure how you mean I would get them then, they could just stay out of range and follow me

[leaden remnant]

hmm true

i'd just stay still for a sec and then bonk their face

[golden coral]

Hence, I'd rather be on my own

[dusky surge]

Honestly, here's how I'd do herbis:

Seperate them into different niches dependent on what they do (roamers/migratory/biome-unique)

Roamers: Animals that do not engage with migrations frequently, and instead often create their own homes and seek unique rarer foodstuffs that spawn all across the island, irregardless of biome. Burrowers and omnivores often have this role. Think more akin to spiro herbi/omni gameplay.

Migratory: Animals that are encouraged to frequently follow a migration path, as it is now on Gateway. These creatures are designed to herd frequently and often are prepared to move decent distances, while also being comfortable in a stationary lifestyle when arriving at their destination. Think stego, teno, dibble, triceratops, so on.

Biome-Unique: Creatures that SPECIFICALLY thrive in a unique biome. This applies only to hyper-specific animals, and these creatures primarily have diets consisting of everything from that biome. Deinocheirus, for instance, is a very swamp/riverdelta focused creature, and will seldom be found elsewhere but these locales. Protoceratops thrives near the coasts, hypsis in jungles, so on.

[vale brook]

what would anky be

id assume roamer

[dusky surge]

Probably a roamer. It's just too slow to engage properly with migrations, and its larger size would make it a formidable competitor to foodstuffs for other roamers

But I think having these three unique herbi types makes herbi FAR more interesting, and makes the entire map feel ALIVE

You'd need to seperate food depending on what is what, but the point is simple, herbis would be more diverse in playstyle than even carnivores, and massively increased in replayability or diversity

[kindred abyss]

The herbies would still play as they do today, can't see how people would want to play them. You have only moved the migration for a selective set of species.

Sure you will spread out the herbies, but noone plays them cause they are without purpose.

[dusky surge]

Everything is without purpose as of now lol

[kindred abyss]

Hammering on a broken nail is most likely not the solution.

[dusky surge]

Elders are that

[mint star]

roamer type creatures is a good idea

they don’t follow migrations and instead the food appears in biomes that they roam between

or rather, the food isn’t accessible by other species except the roamers

[dusky surge]

Yes, exactly that

[slim dragon]

I wish diets weren't the epitome of absurdity

[dusky surge]

I have my own opinions on diets. I understand the point, but at this point, why have slot combos?

But then again I have no desire to talk about diets at the moment lol

[alpine plover]

1179- 2800 kg

[leaden remnant]

hmm, somewhat close to deino

[leaden remnant]

personally i really like diets, i think they're pretty cool but i find some of the debuffs too excessive

11 hours with no diets to grow a deino, 3h 42m with no diets to grow a raptor...

[dusky surge]

the debuffs are actually the thing i think works best about the system lol

[leaden remnant]

might be

[vale brook]

i mean, if you dont have a diet, you're likely straight up refusing to interact with the diet system.

[leaden remnant]

pretty much

man yall confuse me so bad 😭

mr photovictus and mr photovictus are talkin

hold on mr photovictus is coming

[dusky surge]

a mr photovictus is talking, listen and learn

[alpine plover]

Couldn’t agree more

[vale brook]

yeah!

[hasty coyote]

Personally I think forcing anky to interact with migrations could be interesting. Mainly because I see anky’s main threat to survival being the environment rather than pvp since there’s like maybe 5 things that can kill it and they’re all apexes. So making it forced to take risky paths and relatively long journeys (not like across the map, but long for anky) would be a neat way to handle it.

[analog mirage]

Anky should just be slow and take a long time to travel. It's food drain and water drain would be good due to its slow speed, but you would need to know where to travel because one fall is gonna be the end of an anky

I wouldn't mind if Anky just had really long resource drains so that it Kinda just goes to a MZ, eats once or twice and has to move to the next

They roam and be slow

[elder steppe]

I didnt realise the stam cost was really bad. I thought it cost the same to use as the normal swipe, thats why i put the suggestion.

How much stam does it use?

[analog mirage]

15%

[golden coral]

Currently, unless things have been changed, it's 10% for the standing one, 15% for the running one, and then there's the 3 second cooldown on the attack as well. So it's a little rough. It started out with only 2% stam and that was obviously too low, but they kind of went a bit too far in the other direction it feels like. Especially with the whole stam thresholds being a thing and all.

[elder steppe]

Ok, i thought the stam drain was like the normal swing. Yeah, they can keep the tail sky high.

[golden coral]

I wouldn't really mind if they added a timer like cerato charge bite, but I'd like it if they lowered the stam cost a touch in return, and removed the cooldown more importantly.

So it's not that it's neccesarily fine that stego can keep the tail raised forever, just that the rekit has already gotten a bunch of nerfs, and I'm not sure it needs even more on top of that

[analog mirage]

Remove the cooldown, make charge swing actually charge damage up the longer it’s held over like 3 seconds starting with a point blank power swing at 1,200 and max damage after 3 seconds at 2,500

Reduce standing swing to 6% and running to 8%

[slim dragon]

3 seconds charge to make it any useful is worse than having a 3 sec cooldown tbh

[dusky surge]

You actually made it worse lol

[slim dragon]

@solar void New players have a chance to grow a dino
But apexes are purposely hard to grow

[sleek sierra]

It's also good that deinos keep themselves in check. You can't have both more deinos in server, and have more food for each of them. If one of the issues is that you already can't find players to eat, how will that be solved by making them no longer cannibals. Seems to me that they would still kill each other over the limited number of other players they are able to hunt? I don't see how it solves anything. Instead I think it would be better of deino hunger and nutrients reduced very slowly so they didn't feel the need to eat every single thing they see. But either way, the play style should remain boring. They are sit and wait ambush predators. That is a boring life. There are half a dozen other dinos you can play that have a much more action packed life. Deino is the boring one and should be.

[solar void]

i am aware of the fact that my message was controversial

and its fair that deino has these kind of difficulties cus it can be the strongest dino in the game

however, i think they could change something to make it more enjoyable

for example making them able to travel in every river and pond of the map, without having to travel on land for kilometers

no dino go drink in water access or along the river

they all drink in south plains

[vale brook]

you can get there, you just have to actually put thought into it

[cedar beacon]

I think The devs are gonna make the apex growth hard, the current Deino weight nerf decreased the Deino population. When i play Deino i only see 4-5 players trying to grow it, before it was way more.

[slim dragon]

What weight nerf ?
Oh you mean at spawn ?

[cedar beacon]

gaining weight takes so long now as Deino. with stego its the oppesite.

[slim dragon]

I don't think it's an issue

[cedar beacon]

same, for Stego its easier to find food, plants don't run away or fight back. even a 30% grown Stego needs lots of food, so it wouldn't be enough food for herds of 3-4 Stegos, to get perfect diet.

[steep warren]

Anyone know where I can viably put creature suggestions? I feel it'd be in phase 3 suggestions but my breakdown on a possible koolasuchus was deleted

[leaden remnant]

general feedback

phase 3 requests is to see what new #isle-phase-three you want to see

[steep warren]

Cheers

[leaden remnant]

🫡

[dusky surge]

@onyx lichen

encourages group play due to troodon needing to wait 15 seconds to pounce again after running out of pounces
makes troodon more stamina efficient
meshes well with troodon’s hop-on/hop-off playstyle
separates troodon pounce more from omni pounce
gives troodon cooler mobility options for less stam

Good stuff man, that basically entirely fits Troodon’s playstyle

[onyx lichen]

Ty, I was always thinking that the Venom was the main issue but after a fight I had with a Cera today I realized that the Stamina being burnt out was actually a major cause for its difficulty to hunt

[dusky surge]

Stamina should still be burnt by bucking or pinning, but otherwise, I entirely agree

Troodon having this would still mean it’s punished for missing or incorrectly timing the pounce, but not ruin it. Actually, it supports teamwork more, because you want to make sure you have as many pounce charges as possible for when you fully envenomate the prey

[onyx lichen]

I forgot to mention that staying latched will still continue to drain stamina

just activating the pounce won't use stamina

[dusky surge]

Fair

[onyx lichen]

Also jumping then using the pounce won't destroy your stamina

[onyx lichen]

This sums up the idea extremely well

[hasty coyote]

@onyx lichen you could keep the amount of pounces low and make it work like Diablo charges, it starts burning stam after you use the charges

[onyx lichen]

Yeah, but that would likely confuse new players or players who have trouble focusing in battle

but that part can be left for the devs to decide weither or not that should happen

[vale brook]

#balance-feedback message

@smoky trout it already does lol, you just need to charge for a bit

[smoky trout]

Too much and does only 14% damage to cera without BUFF and using 2/3 stam

[vale brook]

to be fair, carno aint really meant to be hunting ceras in the first place

[vale brook]

@iron wind why not just keep an eye out for your pray running towards walls #balance-feedback message

[smoky trout]

Tbh to weak for that Dino

Im preety blinded by nostalgia of old ram but it wasnt balanced but the new one is worse than comunism

[leaden remnant]

@burnt oar uhh no

all dinos have organs that you can take

these give you a specific nutrient

[burnt oar]

Imo giving carnis all three nutrients makes it just a death match between other carnis

[leaden remnant]

oh wait you mean it as a-

crap i thought you didn't know about the organ thing

[burnt oar]

Nah I'm saying you can only get protiens from other carnis of you want all 3 nutrients look for ai or hunt herbivores that give all 3

[leaden remnant]

thing is, very few ppl play herbi and they hide around the map

[burnt oar]

I don't like the fact the game is a team death match in south plains so my idea was make the herbivores go to MZ to get extra bonuses and form herds that way herbs aren't hiding and carnivores are hunting in MZ as well

[leaden remnant]

if herbs get very good perks in mzs we won't be able to hunt em

they're already pretty strong

which isn't a bad thing yknow, but if they get bonuses n stuff... rip carnis

[burnt oar]

Makes more people play herbs like in real life

[leaden remnant]

yeah bout that... pretty complicated

[burnt oar]

70% herbs 30% carns

[leaden remnant]

unless you make herbis goated or smth and carnis very complicated to play... rip

cause rn herbis suck let's be real

the gameplay as a herbi is balls

you get forced to go where you don't want to go when you don't want to go and how you don't wnat to go

and if you don't you get crazy debuffs

(talking about migrations)

but i wish there was a way to make herbi gameplay pretty good and incentivize everyone to play herbi

[burnt oar]

Well giving them MZ and places to go and explore the map and a herd chat it would be more social to be a herbi maybe giving quest in game to herds idk just things off the top of my head

[leaden remnant]

quests n mzs are probs not a good idea

mzs because well they restrict your freedom and make the gameplay balls

and quests cause, well, pot moment

but i really hope they figure a way to make herbi gameplay nice

now if you dont mind me i shall go, have a nice one man

[burnt oar]

You too man

[onyx lichen]

@short epoch You can turn off nametags in the group menu, it's an optional setting so if it breaks your immersion then you can just enable/disable it

[dusky surge]

#balance-feedback message

Perhaps you should log onto ROBLOX, their survival games have anti-mixpack and anti-corpse camping systems that are the entire reason I'm against them (they are exceptionally invasive to gameplay and are used as enemy radars/safe zones/etc)

[cedar beacon]

Is it normal for herbivore to get muscle spasm?

[steep echo]

You'd have to eat some harmful vegetable

likely a type of mushroom

[dusky surge]

#balance-feedback message

I swear to God no one knows how bite force actually works lol

"mouth small so bite small" is not how it works lol

[alpine plover]

some people don’t know*

[stark knoll]

@golden zealot Players leave trackable footprints. Tap Q on a white footprint to target it, you'll be lead to the next set of footprints

[golden zealot]

yeah they do; but that is more specifically something that i think is for chases no? im thinking more along the lines of a sort of "heat map" where it could show if theyre similar species traveling to gether, or a a lone wanderer. dunno just kinda think its different than footprint tracking

otherwise; just make anything that is on your diet give off a scent; because i feel like that would be much more straightforward (although probably more broken)

i dont think its the end of the world that its hard to find players; but it really does change behaviors when its such a rarity

[bright oasis]

Reminder that herbivores and omnivores exist and are playable if you're having too much trouble trying to hunt or survive as a carnivore

[golden zealot]

i feel like that doesnt address what i said at all; and just is "play something else" which i obviously do understand, i just think its weird that its so hard to find people

[leaden remnant]

pretty sure they're gonna do that

heard about scent rework a while ago

[leaden remnant]

also yeah the map doesn't help at all with it, the good places to be in are highlands, south plains if you desperately need food (there's cheaters and murder packs everywhere + super low fps), west rail access and swamp when the dibble migration zone is there

you can also go to east plains where the tenos and pachies are, and sometimes there's people in northeast plains

[undone iron]

Anyone else think the 10 minute spawn delay is a little overkill

Also it isn't even based off where you died, you could spawn at south plains and die at swamp but the spawn delay will still go to South plains

[alpine plover]

I think its fine tbh

[distant torrent]

@pine robin carno is the fastest playable in the game. a solo carno shouldn’t be having a fair fighting chance against two tenos or anything around that size range because:

**A) **it’s literally the fastest land playable. it can simply run away and find easier prey
**B) **because it’s literally the fastest land playable, it can quite literally pick and choose any fight it wants. that’s a huge luxury most playables don’t have because they’re slower
**C) **it has 1,800 health. that’s chunky. not only is it chunky, it’s fast. in a lot of situations (yes, not all), even if you’re ambushed, you can easily run away and escape.
**D) **because of both its size and speed, it’s best for balance if it is tweaked to better being a small game hunter and not so great at hunting game similar to its own size
**E) **if instant ram is brought back (to playables half its weight or above that halfway mark), then other playables will suffer too. not just teno. ceras will suffer also
**F) **not every fight is meant to be fought and won or fought with a good chance of winning (due to balance reasons. speed being a major influence)

[vale brook]

@robust jay meh, i dont think herrera BF matters much. its mostly used for catching ai fish and getting the last bite in on something you just landed on. also it barely has a bite cooldown

[vale brook]

#balance-feedback message

@alpine plover look in da trees and this will not be happening so often

herrera is doing what it is meant to do u_u

[pine robin]

I see your point, makes senes. Just hard when your starving and trying to get food, but they are in the area and pursue you like a bunch of hounds. Just wish herbivores would know their place, as if I'm not attacking you, you shouldn't be attacking me.

[dusky surge]

ehhh, that's not how that works though

we literally have herbivores designed to take the first punch (pachy), and if a herbivore pack is confident in its strength, it'll obviously use that strength to either pressure predators out of their space or kill them. I don't think there should be any "know your place" stuff going on here, given you as a carno can disengage from them with ease

https://tenor.com/view/beasts-of-bermuda-kaperoo-the-isle-path-of-titans-gif-23526654

case in point here

a confident herbivore removing a carnivore from its space aggressively

[pine robin]

Lol true true 👍

[leaden remnant]

yup, sucks but they're free to do whatever they want

[pine robin]

Just wish carno was a little more better at solo play if you don't have a pack. Just sucks growing for 3+ hours only to get your face smashed into the ground and a kick to the jaw for good measure 😕

[pine robin]

true

[leaden remnant]

i personally enjoy it solo

i believe it's pretty good even with the nerfs it got

[dusky surge]

Agreed, it's pretty bad atm, but giving it instacharge back just maes it insufferable to play against

[leaden remnant]

this doesn't mean i don't advocate for making it better cause i also believe the nerfs were pretty crazy

[pine robin]

I do too, but when it's almost impossible to get a perfect diet currently as no one play the "line" diet hardly, it's a little infuriating to get KOS'd for just being there 🤷‍♂️

[leaden remnant]

yup

absolutely agreed

[pine robin]

Yeah true, maybe lower the distnce a bit? Or give carno more movement to capitalize on a stun if he gets it (I can't tell if I do or not) when he gets off a sucessful charge.

[leaden remnant]

might as well just wait for the rework

[pine robin]

They were pretty rough, used to love and still do main carno 😦

[dusky surge]

Honestly, I think it shouldn't knockdown anything over 50% its weight (900kg at full adult)

[leaden remnant]

yeah they were very rough

[pine robin]

I say do that, but with a 10 meter distance, instead of what it is now

[dusky surge]

yea probably

[pine robin]

Almost like pushing off your feet to slam into an enemy! Goofd idea eh?

Good*

[leaden remnant]

probs

[dusky surge]

I have a whole way I'd personally do charge

• Put it on a two charge system, like dryo dodge
• Increase the cooldown of regenerating a charge to 1 minute
• Make it cost no stamina at all
• Make it that a charge can only last up to 2 seconds, with the damage hitbox coming in after 0.5 seconds
• Make it that carno increases in speed by 25% while charging, but loses most agility
• Reduce the damage from 350 to 200 on bodyshot
• Reduce the knockdown from 100% carno's weight to 50%
• Change that grunt to a literal warcry, make it more like the galli's speed boost, but angrier, deadlier, and more hunter-y

Makes it a better movement tool, pursuit tool, small game hunting tool, etc

[alpine plover]

ngl I disagree with changing the grunt, personally I think it’s fine as is, you can rarely ambush silently as is with grunt, it’d be a bigger nuisance if it was louder or per se “war cry”.

[dusky surge]

"you can rarely ambush silently as is with grunt, it’d be a bigger nuisance if it was louder or per se “war cry”."

thats the point

[alpine plover]

But why louder if you’re tryna ambush?

[dusky surge]

I'm not

The goal of this charge is absolutely not ambush

[alpine plover]

If that’s the case nvm, I thought you were rejigging it to be a better ambush tool

[dusky surge]

I would never do such a thing

Ambush carno deserves to be burned

[dusky surge]

I reduced the damage, made it have a dedicated windup, gave it a loud noise, reduce the knockdown and allowed it to move faster

If I was trying to make it a better ambush move, I've already failed

An ambush tool is more like OG gateway charge. Tapcharge point blank to do a nukes worth of damage on anything slightly smaller than you

[alpine plover]

Yeah, I see where you’re coming from now

[pine robin]

CASE AND BLOODY POINT!!!!!!! I spend 3 WHOLE HOURS growing a carno, perfect diet to satrt and I'm at 65%. I spot a lone pachy and two baby pachy's. I fight the big one at half health cause I NEED LINES TO GROW, DAMNIT. Get some good hits after we traded and he broke my leg. He's almost dead, bugger runs and I'm in the red and I gotta kill these two babies because they keep hitting me. When the hell did they make it so I can't alt attack/pivot when you have a broken leg? (That's new to me) So now I'm trying to fight off these babies as im flashing red. Finally get both of them, one respawns and starts attacking me again (mind you the adult ran off, so no big deal i think, i can kill this one in my state and eat) In come a full grown teno, and I i just lost 3 HOURS of my time.......... Dude it should not take 5 AND A HALF HOURS TO GROW (without perfect diet, mind you it takes almost 3 HOURS total with a perfect diet) a carno when he is so weak without backup..... screw me man... just a bloody annoying.

Spent the whole day just trying to nest and get screwed every time

https://www.evrimaquickguide.com/playables/quick-facts-carnivores/carnotaurus

[dusky surge]

The alt-bite thing has always been a downside to leg fracture

[pine robin]

Never seen it yet on Gateway, I 2v1 a pachy team back on the old map. Made it by the skin of my teeth (body, leg, and head tunnel vision) but I won. Was red flashing, but still able to alt bite at that time. Mind you, all I did was accidently walk into their nesting grounds, looking for some boar for my young.

Hosently guys... just makes me rage quit nowadays when I can't even get full grown anymore because no one roams the map, you have to stay in hot zones unless you want to starve. But if you stay there you'll eventually get killed anyway (especially after a fight). It just sucks now. Herbivores gang up on everyone (stegos and pachies, I'm looking at you) and when the other carnivores realize your hurt or see you in a fight. They will kill you more times than not, instead of ganging up together like the herbivores do, rather than truce up and kill the herbivore/herbivore's you are fighting, they will kill you instead..... We need a moral code in this game man, just sucks how helpless carnivores are right now

Like, seriously. Whatever happened to the highlands for gods sake. Such a cool area, now it's a barren wasteland. I mean barely anyone goes there anymore lol.... The map was better when it was new in my honest opinion.... no one knew where to go, everyone was exploring. It was so much better back then. Hell, the AI actually would spawn in the bushes along the road when you were a solo and you were in the boonies. Now, you'd be lucky to find a frog in the bloody swamp.

(Disclaimer: I'm still playing on the regular servers, as I'm not part of the horde test, and I haven't learned yet how to get on the test servers yet. I don't know if the genes or any of the new stuff may have fixed the enjoyment of the game. Like growth buffs or what not. But it is really disheartenting to try and grow a dino all day just so you can MAYBE, find someone to nest with. But end up playing for 12 hours, as it's 10:30pm here now, just to never get lucky)

[distant torrent]

to get into hordetest:

go to your Steam library > right click The Isle > properties > betas > change “evirma - EVIRMA Public Branch” to “hordetesting - Public Testing Branch”

enjoy! c:

[pine robin]

Huh, thanks man. Good to know. I'm going to try it out now haha. Hopefully well get to play ablterto very soon 👍

[distant torrent]

yea there are a lot of issues even in the hordetest. hotspots are an issue, and nesting is not enjoyable

• there are no random spawns yet, so everyone knows to spawn south plains to go to the hotspot
• migrations are bland and limit map freedom for herbivores, so there’s zero reason for carnivores to explore outside of hotspots or the occasional check of a specific migration on your scent bar
• diets and hunger are painful, so that punishes people who dare explore the map and roam
• the painful diets and hunger discourage people from nesting unless they’re nesting their friends in because it’s a huge pain in the back

I love playing herbivore and nesting, but the current migrations and the way diets drain genuinely push me away from nesting especially with how diet spawns

I won’t even try to nest when I play carnivore lol that’s asking for a headache. I nested as cera once, and it only worked out because it was when dibble first came out so there were little dibble burgers absolutely everywhere at west rail and virtually nothing else. diets were a pain with little ones

[pine robin]

For the first point, all i gotta say is, yep. Honestly the hunger wouldn't be too bad if they let ai spwn randomly along the map like they used to. And yes, while the migration system does get the herbivores to move around the map, from my experience (mind you I am admittedly a carnivore main, i never really play the herbivores, except for when i did on the old, map. But unfortunately I had found their playstyle boring), it seems that certain herbivores have certain migration zones, and certain carnivores have certain migration zones related to their diet. Honestly I would not mind a return to the old diet system, as it would make it less painful to have a non optimal growth diet, as long as you would get the buffs. For both herbivores and carnivores. Honestly, the requirement to have all 3 diets is what made me frusterated with this game, as before. I could have a, let's say a 2 dot and 1 S diet. Or a 2 S and a dot/line diet. (Mind you I don't play with any discord friends, just people I meet) So i could specilize on scenting food far away, or getting some health/stamina back when resting. You could change up your diet as you grew beforehand. Now, your locked in to only having perfect diet, and if you don't, it will take a hell of a long time to grow now, with no benefit to the player with the new growth changes.

Mind you, I love that they updated the growth changes to get you out of the juvie stage quicker, but they also increased the growth time of getting to adult by double than what it had used to be. I can only really speak for carno and omni, as I hadn't had much experience with the other dinos back then. But I did play stego, teno, and pachy back then. And I can only guess that their growth times were shorter than they are now, after the changes) The to grow your dino (as a carnivore) with all 3 diets to grow optimally, rather than having to wait/scavenge for 3-5 hours just to grow to full adult is a little ridiculous for the carnivores/herbivores, which are in the game now and are considered small to mid weight. Other than the really small dinos, but mind you I take issue with the fact that it will take you a full hour or so, as to the previous 30min to grow a troodon, when you can get killed so easily. (Haven't played troodon much either since the initial release, but when I did on Gateway it was still very weak and only viable in "hot zones" against juvies. But a full hour to grow something to kill juvies...come on)

P.S also btw, how do you guys make paragraphs on discord? XD I can't figure it out without posting whatever I'm typing 😛

[distant torrent]

I believe hold shift then tap enter if you’re on computer lol

[distant torrent]

yea making the optimal growth diet a must-have really defeated the whole point of the introduction of the diet combinations in the first place. the previous tweaked diet system was fine. the only issue was arguably the 3 dot diet since it affected stam cost which made it meta, but it was great other than that

I also miss diets being able to go up to 300%. it gave you time to relax and dine on junk food if need be. I’d love a return of that or a sizable reduction in diet drain (can be debated for growing playables if afk growth will be more of an issue with a change like that)

[pine robin]

Wait, diets used to be able to go up to 300% ?

Also yes, the 3 dot diets were op

well not op, but too much 😛

[distant torrent]

yep back on Spiro a long while ago

you had a diet for each specific slot that couldn’t be changed, and it activated at any % and could go up to 300%

[pine robin]

Oh man, thats awesome. Honestly if they brought back diet being activate at any percent rather that the 100%. I feel it the game would feel a lot better, especially when your stomach is almost full but you need somes lines to grow

[distant torrent]

the 100% activation cost felt like a huge backstep regarding QoL

[pine robin]

yeah

[distant torrent]

removing the 300% and capping it to 100% also was a backstep in QoL since diet drain wasn’t slowed to compensate

its still 1:1 with hunger drain I think?

[pine robin]

Couldn't tell you for sure, aia joined up when it was capped at 100% i believe 🤷‍♂️

[leaden remnant]

no sir, there are in fact no growth boosts in ht

so we gonna have to enjoy ridiculously long growth times for now

i'd say just afk grow

spawn a stego, jump off a cliff or smth, spawn a carno in a spawn that's near (so no cooldown), run to it, eat it, hide in a bush, watch youtube or something, go out, get your diet again, afk grow more so you're faster than sub raptors (52.6km/h with photosynthetic tissue mutation, 50.2 km/h without it) and then begin the gameplay

[dusky surge]

this is why the random spawns need to come here faster

[leaden remnant]

im sure there'll be ways to still do the stego thing

unless they predict all possible ways to do it

[dusky surge]

with random spawns, it'd be literally near impossible to do consistently

you can also just make a small exclusion zone around where you last died so the spawning doesn't pick there again

[leaden remnant]

probs

[keen plover]

also #isle-discussion message

[dusky surge]

that too

that is an awesome change

[leaden remnant]

@exotic viper yessir already done

lemme show you

nocturnal

[tiny thicket]

That's unfortunate if it happened back in update 4.5 where carno was capable solo hunter but now carno is a "pack hunter" and it shouldn't stand a chance in hunting anything unless it is in a pack bcuz it is a "pack hunter". Try playing cerato as it can hold on its own solo and excels in pack hunting bcuz it wasn't supposed to be a "pack hunter".

[dusky surge]

carno is not meant to be a pack hunter

[tiny thicket]

Are u sure cuz I remember carno was used to be a natural cannibal.

[dusky surge]

which made it a better pack hunter

that made it an insanely good pack hunter

it was removed because of how powerful megapacks were with it on

and generally how easy carno growth and sustaining was with it active

[leaden remnant]

@grave raven by cheating

a stego can't be faster than a cera

[tiny thicket]

Back then there were lack of mid tier carnivores any player who wanted to play a cera or allo was forced to play carno.

Carno is the bane of omnis if it was functional there wouldn't be surge in Omni population on servers in hordetest.

[alpine plover]

Second part is true, even dondi knows carno is having an identity crisis atm

[leaden remnant]

yeah probably

havent had issues killing raptors as a carno in ht tho

[grave raven]

wow realy ?

I've never seen a Cheating before.

[leaden remnant]

damn

the game is filled with cheaters excepting in hordetesting

sometimes it feels like there's more cheaters than legit players

[drifting aurora]

the only cheat i suspect is some player location reveal bull. the amount of times a croc walked out of the river to get to my juvi croc when i for 100% know he could not know i was there is insane

[alpine plover]

@exotic viper #balance-feedback message

lmfao what. herrera doesn't need any nerfs beside maybe reducing its ground speed. its literally has ONE shot to kill and if it misses its basically GG's unless they want to be persistent. no other carnivore has the "one chance" playstyle other than deino, every other carnivore can kill whatever in a consistent flow. "sits whenever he wants and kills dinos 5-7 times" not true either, literally the biggest thing it can one-shot is a dilo, and thats only x4 its size. you're also forgetting the game applies terminal velocity/gravity. a 175 kg animal falling from tree tall heights is obv going to do serious damage lol, no matter the size

and if you see a kill near a tree or cliff that should be an immediate red flag that mostly likely there is a herrera around. its not "bad-design" if there are signs to avoid a herrera and you ignore it thats your fault lol.

[eager saddle]

to add to that one shot thing, you need to pray the prey isn't moving as you jump because otherwise you just miss. And keep in mind, it's an ambush predator. If you miss, that's it. Your prey now knows you're there and if it's smart, it's going to leave the area immediately, leaving you without food.

[cosmic pelican]

Also if the prey expects you coming, or you mess up a jump you are most likely going to die, or at best, takes serious damage since herrera is VERY squishy.

If you miss an omni for example youll instantly get pinned if the omni plays smart, which is a complete death sentence.

[exotic viper]

@alpine plover I disagree with you. I see a lot of kills near trees and f forests since there is no shortage of them on the map. He can deny you your own kill and there is nothing you can do since you're locked to eating animation and that is just enough time for him to jump. A single Herrera shouldn't one shot animals 3 and 4 times their size thus denying them food access. It is a small prey hunter. It should'nt be one shotting fg dilos. The fact that you compare herrera, 100+ kg herrera to 8000 kg deino is just laughable. Small animals, juvies and small subs is ok. Let them cooperate and do sync jumps if they intend to take on a big prey.

[cosmic pelican]

You can take out chunks to eat piece by piece, the grabbing animation isnt long enough for a herrera to have enough time to jump on you.

[coarse blaze]

Herreras are also from my experience only in 4 or so places, I see them in the Highlands, South plains, West Rail and very rarely; the swamp.

Maybe a few still hanging around East Plains I'm sure.

[cosmic pelican]

Tbf only places I ever see herreras are south plains and bridge pond, everywhere else they just die of boredom

[golden coral]

So basically, it's a tree deino. Treat it as such.

Also they do have to do sync jumps to kill big prey. But a 175 kg herrera isn't "tiny" and it being able to oneshot larger things (and dilo isn't that large) is kind of needed for how it works currently. Since they can't really follow up very well, and thus have to be able to do enough on impact to secure a kill.

[exotic viper]

I do. I just don't think this game needs it.

[golden coral]

Fair, it didn't need deino either

But they both have similar "styles" in how to play, and how to avoid

[exotic viper]

I respect your opinion, and I think I said all I wanted to say 🙂

[round hare]

anywhere east of the map have an average of 0 herreras

[alpine plover]

What makes it laughable though? What other carnivore in the current roster shares a similar niche?

[vale brook]

herrera is absolutely meant to be taking on things dilo sized

thats literally the EXACT reason it does so much damage

[tight cove]

Ppl complaining about Herrera is hilarious like all you gotta do is look up and if a body is near trees or a cliff be extra careful 😂

[twilit marlin]

Herrera has all the bullying potential of the deino but it has none of the deinos struggle. Growing a herra is simple and fast. Its too easy to gain that much power.

[eager saddle]

you also die a lot easier than a deino

[grizzled anchor]

As a Herra one slip up is mostly your death. U might tank one hit but not a second one. And I feel like counter playing a herrera isnt that hard if u know where it is.
Its also not really effective against anything thats larger than a dilo. I think herra is in a good spot in terms of balancing right now. Being the treee top assassin for dilo and smaller dinos and the scavenger for bigger dinos eating their left behind scraps.

[vale brook]

you're right, it has completely different struggles.

raptor 1 shots you with pin (youre slower than it as well, better hope you get that 1 shot yourself)

anything bigger than cera will likely 1 shot you as well, considering you only have 175 health

your stamina isnt great on the ground, you make noise whilst moving between trees, etc.

herrera is as fragile as it is deadly

[lilac veldt]

I feel like the Cerato need more to be able to deal more damage with its main bite

not a huge amount more, maybe like 200 instead of 150

for referance it has 1300 hp and 150 bite force, while the carno has 1800 hp and 175 bite force

A carno can almost facetank 2 ceras one after the other

[vale brook]

it already does double with a charge bite

and once one cera drops you get a hefty body buff

[shadow vortex]

It can’t tho.

“Almost” is like in 15% of all cases where ceras either 1. really bad, 2. don’t have bile. And even then from what I know cera’s bite cooldown is a bit less, so yuh.

[lilac veldt]

A charge attack takes time to charge up. a carno is meant to be a fast dino, being the fastest dino in the game. it should also have more bite and health than a cera. I think by buffing its bite by 50 to 200, it makes it far more viable and makes it a bigger risk to attack. it will also make it so it can defend itself more in large group against allo when it comes

[lilac veldt]

Bile has cooldown too. and the bite cooldown in just about the same. not to mention with the charge bite carno also has a charge it can use far more effectively to deal large damage as well. I get some cera players a good and can solo a carno, but a carno shouldn't be faster and also better in every other way.

[shadow vortex]

And also there is already a rework for a carno in process, so making ceras stronger this way now will end in it being a horrendous creature to stand against. Tenontos and diablos already take it the hardest, have mercy.

[lilac veldt]

dibbles already have 2x+ the health as a cera and do 275 damage with their hit

[shadow vortex]

Carno has an identity crisis rn, as I said it’s going to get its rework to not be a rapid menace for anything larger than half its weight ig. Ceras are meant as scavengers, they still can fend off one carno in duos, but going solo in open plains is purely up to a player and is a dumb decision imho. Also everything about a carno is decimated in dense foliage, so use that.

[shadow vortex]

And very non-agile and easy to bait.

[vale brook]

2 ceras absolutely destroy diablo

[shadow vortex]

If you didn’t see packs of ceras (god, even solo ceras) destroying every dibble at sight, I don’t know what else can I add.

[lilac veldt]

by buffing it bite, its an easy buff that can be applied that should doesn't need to change an animation or anything and can be changed back easy if player actually feel it is too much. I think it would be fine. Also, cera isn't meant to be a pure scavenger. ceras are meant to be a brawler, but as a scavenger they suck too. sure they can eat bones and rotten food and have a damage reduction buff around non-dragged bodies, but that is it.

can't run, can't hide, have to fight a losing battle

[lilac veldt]

every time i play cera (a lot) on hordetest, I have a hard time as a solo against fully grown dibbles, and even in groups its not easy. sure agianst small dibbles its easy, but anything bigger than 1500 kg, which is pretty young, its sucks.

making it so only a few good players can have fun playing cera is not a healthy thing when it is the only larger(right now) carnivore other than carno. it pushes more people to play carno, which decreases the already low cera pop

[shadow vortex]

By buffing a cera only because of one match-up (which is soon going to cease), you screw every other one. What will tenontos do about it, pachies, diablos?

With current mutations cera can out-speed them. So it will be a carno for them that they can’t run from?

[lilac veldt]

Pachies are meant to break and run. teno already obliterates any cera who isn't careful, and dibbles can flip and easily kill a cera even as youngers ones that have way more stam

[shadow vortex]

If you want to survive in a survival game, you of course need to learn it hard. Either fight good or hide good. Again, that match-up will sooner or later disappear, so it’s unhealthy to actually make life of other playables even worse.

[shadow vortex]

When they break anything of you they already take 200*2 = 400 hp due to stagger, if not a headshot + bodyshot which results in their death.

[lilac veldt]

its not going to "soon" dissapear. the fact that this is the first time i heard about a rework means that that "soon" will probably be in a year or so

[shadow vortex]

Cera can tailride pachy and make it vomit. Cera has a resistance to fractures.

Tenonto had its hitboxes nerfed, cera didn’t. Literally one puke and you’re dead.

If you want to buff its bite so much, cera’s main ability to repel anything from itself should be less offensive then.

[lilac veldt]

Honestly i just know that Cera needs a buff, I think that buffing its bite to 200 is bad. keep its charge at 300 bite. or buff its health to 1500 instead of 1300.

Cerato is such a unique and intersting dino that i find it as a shame that it is so underpowered. giving Cerato something for better survivability should be done. I think ceratos are just underpowered and need some buff or rework to fix it. Carno rework is still likely a long way off, and a buff to cerato or a nerf to carno to make it so they can't facetank is needed either this patch or right now

[alpine plover]

Cerato literally isn’t designed to be fighting, it’s meant to be scavenging and pushing people off kills. It’s not underpowered at the slightest because you can’t facetank a carno.

[lilac veldt]

how does it push people off kills? by fighting. how does it keep people off its body? by fighting. Cerato is a brawler. Carno is a fast dino who is supposed to be a dino who feeds on smaller prey which it is specifically designed to race down and kill. Carno's should not be able to face tank a Cerato

[alpine plover]

Ok? So this is a carno problem, therefore cerato doesn’t need to have any buffs whatsoever

[lilac veldt]

Cerato should also get a buff of some kind regardless. as mid-tiers like Allo enter the game, groups of ceratos should still be able to defend their kills from solo allos. as it stands, i find it highly unlikely that even a group of 3-4 ceratos could defend itself from an allo, based. it needs a buff, either a health buff or a bite buff. In my opinion it is not enough to just nerf the carno.

[leaden remnant]

honestly no

when you bonk someone as a pachy, there's a chance they'll actually get a hit on you

but you already got a fracture so you won the fight anyways

@vagrant root gonna get changed dw about it

[leaden remnant]

and if you get a head fracture, he's almost at your mercy

well with another fracture combined ofc

(cause he stops dealing enough damage to actually kill you)

you're able to kill him before he kills you with a head fracture in terms of raw damage (head bonks do a ton of damage)

[alpine plover]

You’re basically deciding to buff a creature based off of a single matchup, this isn’t good

[lilac veldt]

generally the cerato is bad agaisnt everything other than small dinos. even then it has a hard time

[leaden remnant]

are you sure about that good sir

soloing carnos as a cera is very much possible

[cosmic pelican]

Considering how vomiting works currently, cerato groups will have a great matchup versus allos. Once you make the allo puke you just have to keep your distance and make it vomit again until it starves or dies to the damage.

[leaden remnant]

in fact you can solo anything in this game as a cera

[leaden remnant]

and not difficult

[cosmic pelican]

Cerato is literally the best stego hunter atm, only beaten by dibble

[leaden remnant]

i recommend you watch youtube tutorials to learn the full potential of cera

you'll be impressed by the power a scavenger has

in fact, hold on

[vagrant root]

Oh shoot didnt knew about it

[cosmic pelican]

Me and 3 of my friends even managed to take down 3 fully grown stegos, albeit it took almkst 3 hours to kill them lol

[tiny thicket]

Cera doesn't need a stat buffs what it needs is bone break ability to bully bigger carnivores of a corpse and ability to chuff bile on corpses to make them rot faster and claim the prize.

[leaden remnant]

this is not a flex at all btw, dont think im flexing skill or anything of the sort, but this is what a friend of mine and i (both tryhard cera players) managed to kill in one life:

2 small crocs
1 pachy
8 ceras
9 tenos
8 stegos
3 raptors
1 dilo
2 carnos

[alpine plover]

That’s worse 😭

[leaden remnant]

don't think we did a 2v1 tho, we did 2v4s, 2v5s and still won

[lilac veldt]

Ceratos have always had a hard time. I have watch plenty of videos on how to fight a carno as a cera. those techniques only work when a carno doesn't know what it is doing. A carno isn't supposed to be fighting ceratos anyway. its not on its diet, so the devs meant for it to not bother fighting them.

[alpine plover]

And it can already make corpses rot faster

[leaden remnant]

even if a carno knows what he's doing, you can outsmart him, but it becomes hell on earth

however you're way faster in water and consume way less stam than a carno so use it to your own advantage

• great agility, use it for forest escapes

[leaden remnant]

so you're not wrong

[cosmic pelican]

Also a carno can only really challenge a cera if its doing good on hunger, otherwise it risks losing all of its diet and food

[leaden remnant]

also that

however let's not ignore the reckless carnos lol

[cosmic pelican]

If you make the carno vomit and then just leave, you have a very good chance to just make it starve to death

[leaden remnant]

funny thing for a carno

honestly just animation lock him and get alt bites in then dip

you can dodge him, faster in water, faster in mud, way better at forests

[cosmic pelican]

I honestly fear allo will suffer vs cera more than cera will suffer vs allo lol

[leaden remnant]

and since half of the map is forests, you aint got lack of em

[leaden remnant]

i honestly think ceras might get brutally mauled by allos the second they release

unless allos are slower i dont see a chance for ceras

the allos will literally pin the ceras down and that's it

[cosmic pelican]

Allos will be slower 100%

[leaden remnant]

raptor pin but on frickin steroids

[cosmic pelican]

If allo would be able to pin them, and be faster that would be bonkers

[lilac veldt]

Yeah allo should be slower than teno and cera but faster than dibble

[cosmic pelican]

Might as well delete cera at that point

[tiny thicket]

That's exactly why cera should bonebreak.

[leaden remnant]

yup but let's not forget the first release of pounce to pin

[leaden remnant]

would make em unkillable tho...

pachies but on every single type of steriods ever known to man

straight up deleting everything

[cosmic pelican]

No God please...

It shouldnt hunt even better than it does currently

It also just doesnt need it

[tiny thicket]

Cera already has bleed resistance and allo is a bleeder so pinning a cera would be wasting stam. Also might have to remove fracture resistance on cera to balance stuff out.

[cosmic pelican]

Ceras bleed res isnt that great honestly, and it only has it if its above 50% hp

[leaden remnant]

adding bonebreak to ceras would just make them killing machines

cant kill something that incapacitates you in a second and without it is already powerful as heck

only rexes and trikes would be able to kill them

(with their legs broken)

[cosmic pelican]

Lets not bring back ceratorex pls🥺

[leaden remnant]

ceratosaurus rex

LOL

[tiny thicket]

Allos and Carno's will have to find different ways but the fact that cerato is so short aiming right at your ankles makes it more intimidating.

[leaden remnant]

there wouldn't be a way tho...

imagine pachies with cera build

if a pachy can already solo a cera no sweat required imagine with cera build

[golden coral]

It was pretty fun though, could even take on a giga in a pack!

[cosmic pelican]

Honestly evrima cera will probably have a good shot at it as well thanks to vomit lock

[tiny thicket]

Giga is to big to apply bone break and a Rex would likely one shot before it breaks your bones.

[golden coral]

Vomit lock a rex or trike in 5 bites, yeah I could see that work out surprisingly well. Or vomit lock rex while one pukes on the food, then watch the rex starve

[cosmic pelican]

I really hate how cera is a better big game hunter than omni is😭

And it will only get better once large carnivores get added

[golden coral]

That's just because pounce is how it is

And well, lack of scaling with size on vomit

[cosmic pelican]

Pounce itself is fine honestly, how you counter it is the problem

[tiny thicket]

Vomit locking a trike is same as juvie 300kg ceras vomit locking a dibble.

[leaden remnant]

which is surprising ngl

considering how a very good pack of raptors decimates everything it finds

straight up deletes it

with or without pounce to pin it's 2 mins and hunt is over lol

[golden coral]

Which is in part due to pounce being what it is

[leaden remnant]

unless the prey hard camps in which case it's 30 mins minimum

[tiny thicket]

Just dodge the pounce bruh.

[leaden remnant]

probably one of the best responses ive ever seen

[cosmic pelican]

My recent omni experiences say otherwise, unless the prey doesnt know what it doing. I usually play in small packs, no larger than 3-4 ppl, and I kid you not, every single fight we get into just devolves into the prey camping and us being like: "oh well I guess we lost this one too guys."

[leaden remnant]

oh damn

i play in a pack of like 5 ish vc coordinated sweaty raptor pack so you can imagine what usually happens

gotta say tho, half the pack is growing cause we keep dying to our mistakes

so it's about 3-4 fg raptors all the time

[leaden remnant]

if it's a stego and the stego wallcamps it's over tho

and if it's 2+ wallcamping things, over as well

it's just the things that are in the open that get absolutely obliterated

for example a stego that found himself against 7 fg raptors in the middle of highlands 😭

[cosmic pelican]

#general-feedback message Marj is a good friend of mine, she took this picture on our latest hunt, even though we got an excellent ambush on one of the stegos with 4 of us on it for a good 15 seconds we just couldnt do anything after they pulled this move.

[leaden remnant]

he lsated 1 minute and died to raw damage 😭

no pounce to pin btw

shortest stego hunt ever

[cosmic pelican]

Yeah were usually in vc too, but it only goes so far🤣

[leaden remnant]

yus

[cosmic pelican]

Yeah were lucky to have 1-2. We honestly had way more success vs stegos when backpounces werent a thing and we were only 3 ppl

[cosmic pelican]

And the worst part is you cant even blame them for doing it, stego is already bad as it is, not to mention bucking :/

That bucking rework couldnt come any sooner

I want to enjoy omni so bad, but we literally feel useless unless I play in a horde

[golden coral]

How come?

[cosmic pelican]

Well, we usually patrolled around the swamp to rule out any chance of a 3rd party, back then ai was also far more reliable so waiting out the stegos that were camping was actually a viable strategy. Also omnis reputation of being "weak" and "useless" meant most players werent prepared for a coordinated pack that knew what it was doing.

Not saying it was easy, most hunts took several hours, but until the backpounce changes we managed to kill at least 2 dozen stegos as the "useless" omniraptor

[golden coral]

Why would the backpounce change it?

[cosmic pelican]

Well, it also came with the bucking math change, which made bucking benefit the attackers more than the prey, which meant most stegos would run to the nearest wall as soon as they saw us since omnis reputation now was "extremely lethal". That update also made ai pretty much nonexistent outside of hotspots which meant we couldnt even wait them out anymore.

[leaden remnant]

yup

[eager saddle]

How dare you remind me of my failures 😭 but I’ll take the compliment :3

[cosmic pelican]

It hurts me just as much as it hurts you

[eager saddle]

Because backpounce has the nasty habit of not working properly, especially if you’re close. You can pounce the tail but the game will put you under the stego tail and that results in garanteed death since you’re still pouncelocked. On top of that, if you ARE close, you just get swept midjump.

When it didn’t exist, we weren’t jumping on the tail, thinking it would work. So it being a thing now and silly us thinking it would work properly gets us killed more often than not

[eager saddle]

I wasn’t even mad, I’m just confused that this is allowed. Stego should be both drowning and bleeding but is doing neither because ha ha

[golden coral]

Fair. I think they should just remove the backpounce again, and just adjust the side angles a tiny bit more if needed. And adjust the thresholds for the grapple if neccesary.

[eager saddle]

And you know what’s the 1 good thing about backpounce that makes it valuable? It’s slightly harder to knock you off with terrain.

[shadow vortex]

@royal valve you sure you wasn’t snatched by a croc?

[royal valve]

no sound and i had checked like 3 seconds earlier

since herras have good underwater vis im like pretty sure there wasnt a croc

i feel like i woulda heard something if there was a croc

[slim dragon]

I think it's not fall damage but rather a bug with entering water or smth
Herrera has insane fall damage resistance

[cosmic pelican]

Yep, the exact same scenario happened to me as well, but I was playing cera

But it only seems to happen in super laggy enviroments

[slim dragon]

Might have something to do with some of the anti-cheat solutions they implemented
Which, iirc, automatically slays you if the game finds abnormal behavior (like going far beyond the speed limit)
But it may also trigger false positives when a player is very laggy

[waxen trench]

that does NOT slay you if ur going far beyond the speed limit, that ONLY triggers false positives and 0 true positives

[slim dragon]

I guess so, it's very likely that the devs implemented a system that is intentionally made to not function

[old blaze]

@royal valve lmao did you not see the sign 😂

[royal valve]

My bad must've hit me head on the rock

[leaden remnant]

LOL

[mint heart]

wtf are they putting in our drinking water

[alpine plover]

#balance-feedback message

I basically said the same thing a while ago buteveryone disagreed with me lol

[frank crane]

Add to ptera the possibility of grabbing juv, small dino or ia, depending on weight and growth of course. frustrating, but interesting mechanics!
what do you think? not to mention the fact that he needs a stamina buff right now ^^

[slim dragon]

Kinda useless AND would look very improbable, as ptera doesn't have grabbing feet at all

[bright oasis]

@royal valve
in your feedback post, i dont think you died from fall damage. it seems more like something killed you, likely a deino. you took bleed damage, that doesnt happen from falling. i watched the vid you replied to as well, that person didn't take any bleed damage from their fall death. its likely due to the server desync thats been happening, you didnt see the deino before it got you.

[royal valve]

Yep must've been a dieno or something I didn't notice I had bleed applied, you've got a keen eye haha

[bright oasis]

kinda wild that it took over 30 people to watch it for one to notice lmao

[royal valve]

To be fair the sudden bleed is the only evidence

It also really does look like I spontaneously combust

[daring spindle]

@woven hawk dilo already gets increased venom potency at night, but both will be getting a sort of buff with the new nv system, as they will have much better nv than others

[woven hawk]

oooo sounds cool

[daring spindle]

This shows the difference between really good nv and bad nv

[woven hawk]

I don't personally play them but I might give them a spin when the new update shoots to the game >:)

[daring spindle]

Yes definitely

Looking forward to this new nv system

[woven hawk]

dayummm

[daring spindle]

Another shot of really good nv

Hopefully we get this soon

[woven hawk]

I can't wait

salivating for real 😈

[alpine plover]

pause

[sleek sierra]

Can we unpause yet?

[mint star]

@tranquil halo i have to disagree with that suggestion

carnivores being able to locate players just by being under 50% would be insanely easy to abuse

[tiny thicket]

It was more likely headshot from beipi underwater.

Its sound of beipi attack

[leaden remnant]

@smoky trout you can run away

[smoky trout]

You cant

[leaden remnant]

i mean before being pinned

[smoky trout]

They still can easly catch you

[leaden remnant]

but would be cool to let gallis knock raptors down with a kick

[leaden remnant]

but they slower tho

[smoky trout]

Still can catch you even that you are faster they can run after you and pounce from the back

[smoky trout]

Maybe not knock

[leaden remnant]

wut

[smoky trout]

But longer stun

[leaden remnant]

they're speedhacking then

[smoky trout]

IT hapoend to me more than one time

And not only me

There was a guy

On balance feedback that also had same situation

[cosmic pelican]

Yeah a sub omni can keep pace with a galli if it spams pounce, but an adult definetly cant, especially if the galli has speed mutations. Even if it could, by the time it catches up to you and pins you it wouldve burned most of its stamina spamming pounce.

[leaden remnant]

a sub omni cant pin a galli tho

thing is yeah he can spam pounce but you have the power of just dodge the pounce

[cosmic pelican]

Exactly

[leaden remnant]

move your speedy ass outta the way

[cosmic pelican]

Unless the galli has like no diets, then yeah, an omni can probably catch up

[leaden remnant]

thing is tho i wouldnt play galli myself

[leaden remnant]

galli has like 4 mins of run time

[cosmic pelican]

Youre missing out lol

[leaden remnant]

im not getting pinned and losing 2 hours of growth

if it was less than an hour like it should be then sure id play it

[cosmic pelican]

If it has only 1-2 diets its around the same speed as an omni

[leaden remnant]

wat

do diets affect galli speed

[cosmic pelican]

Yep

[leaden remnant]

im never playing galli

[cosmic pelican]

Each slot you activate gives you around 3km/h

[leaden remnant]

never ever touching galli

[cosmic pelican]

But its baby mode keeping the diets up, 1 bush of each diet and youre good for an hour

[cosmic pelican]

Galli with gastro, speed and stamina regen mutations is a beast, no omni is catching u unless youre just oblivious to your surroundings lol

30km/h trot also allows it to bleed out things like carno

[leaden remnant]

yessir but im never gonna go to migrations anyways so

[cosmic pelican]

Galli has migrations at south plains, highlands and occasionally ne, so unless youre unlucky youll always get action in your mz

[leaden remnant]

ehhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

[cosmic pelican]

If you can get a flock going I highly recommend it, going over 70km/h while screaming, making everyone regret their life choices is hella fun

[leaden remnant]

bro 💀

OVER 70 KM/H

[cosmic pelican]

Yeah 73km/h

Migrations dont even feel like a chore lol, even if its ne, you can get there in 15 mins

[leaden remnant]

meanwhile the action: (you gonna get pinned by a speedhacking raptor 🔥)

[cosmic pelican]

Speedhacking omni, only if💀

But yeah thats why u need a flock

[leaden remnant]

tbf it makes a lotta sense why ppl dont play raptor to speedhack

[cosmic pelican]

Too squishy yeah

[leaden remnant]

1h 42m just to get 1 tapped by most things

[cosmic pelican]

Also if you go any faster than a galli, you get kicked for hacking so

[leaden remnant]

yus

[keen plover]

No guarantee but this exists. #isle-discussion message

[steep echo]

#balance-feedback message
@analog mirage I thought 40 damage per swipe would be perfect, and the alt bite dealing 80 (two quick swipes, but no bite). But keep about the same bleed. They're big claws ofc but they're not sickle sharp

They don't one shot pteras this way

And four hits to kill a troodon (3 if it has no health boosting diet)

[dusky surge]

health boosting diet ain't a thing

[steep echo]

I thought S diet offered health/fixed health regen

At least thats what it describes it as

[dusky surge]

it offers health/locked health regen

so it regens both faster

it doesn't upgrade health itself

[steep echo]

wait so whats the difference between health regen and locked health regen

[dusky surge]

locked health is a unique hidden stat which prevents you from healing unless resting

[steep echo]

I've been lying to myself for a year

[dusky surge]

if it buffed health, it'd be disgustingly OP

[tight cove]

They really made reabsorption useless now smh 😐

[alpine plover]

@primal heart dibble can’t knockdown (adult) stego anymore, only stuns, which is good

[primal heart]

Maybe idk but dibble still can kill stego easier than other creature

And stego can't get rid off them

Because stun cost nothing,

Dibble share same attack mode like carnivore,use head to attack,but have armor on their head,and free stun ability.
That's why we should make dibble smaller and more flexible.such creature shouldn't threat stego at all.

[primal heart]

And I still see dibble knock down stego in video.

[alpine plover]

Probably a 70-75 because you literallly can’t knockdown an adult steg anymore

[dusky surge]

It's an outdated build

[alpine plover]

There we go

[hasty coyote]

Still in my experience, in a 1v1 stego can still kill a Diablo if it times its swings well, they can knock down the Diablo.
However, the fact Diablo can still stun a stego is kinda op. It’s essentially pachies bullying a carno but worse.

[dusky surge]

@orchid merlin cerato isn't small game tho

at least, proportionally to carno

[orchid merlin]

I’m aware of that, my point is that it’s ridiculous how the 1.3T dino dosent fill up the small game hunters stomach

[dusky surge]

fair

[orchid merlin]

a dilo should be enough in my opinion

Or even smaller

[dusky surge]

cerato has a larger stomach than its peers as a massive scavenger, i'd think it'd be fitting to make carno have an inversely smaller stomach

[orchid merlin]

Exactly

[dusky surge]

so while cerato needs more food to fill up for its weight, carno needs less for its weight

[alpine plover]

<@&933486433342222376>, @dusky surge free robux!!!

[dusky surge]

YESSSS

[grizzled anchor]

@dusky surge Almost all points sound valid but the short cd together with no runup will just cause the carno to charge u from 1.5m away again. Weve been there and I wont endure this another time since it basically eliminates ANY 1v1 chance for other carnivores.

[dusky surge]

hence the required 0.5 seconds of charging before the hitbox activates

you literally can't chage someone from 1.5m away with my proposal

[grizzled anchor]

I just dont think that carno being able to start the charge from standing still is a good thing. Besides that 0.5 secs are not a long time so this still causes the carno to charge u from very close.
Let him start from normal walking okay but from standing still is just too much imo

[dusky surge]

oh you cant start it standing still, i never implied that

only while sprinting

[grizzled anchor]

U said remove the runup? Thats what I understood as let him just charge whenever he likes whatever hes doing 🤔 maybe a misunderstanding on my end then

[dusky surge]

the rampup, as in, the fact that you can't knockdown a galli unless you charge for 5 whole seconds kinda deal

[grizzled anchor]

Aaaaah okay mb then I do agree with these changes 😄

[dusky surge]

I corrected myself, you're right on my wording being confusing

Sorry about that

[regal tulip]

yeah give it some turning agility back but make it have to accelerate again

[grizzled anchor]

All good we figured it out in the end 😄 no harm done

[regal tulip]

not being able to turn while charging is fine but carno feels like a 10 ton semi truck even without using it right now

[dusky surge]

istg every suggestion i post gets hit with the person_shrugging emote wtf

why me

[slim dragon]

You deserve it

[dusky surge]

i cant tell if thats good or bad

@slim dragon i hate you you know that

[slim dragon]

Yes

[shadow vortex]

I don’t really like 4 and 5 points combined together. In my imagination it hardly goes with a “pursuer” playstyle, because it will now even more rely on prey movement prediction, which is already hard when hunting small critters. 0.5 seconds waited needed to execute the damage, while going on much higher speed, when you hunt an omni… Maybe I just think too much of it, and you expect it to be more like a final way to secure the kill if aimed correctly. So, yeh, shrugging 🤷

[regal tulip]

i feel its only going to be a catch up tool and not anything else if changed like that. Right now its already easy af to dodge carnos without them having even worse movement and screaming their lungs out

[dusky surge]

worse movement?

how

[regal tulip]

?

[dusky surge]

its literally speedblitzing

thats better movement than what it has now LMAO

[regal tulip]

meant agility obviously, straight line speed is useless if you cant hit anything with it

[dusky surge]

if you can catch up, it means more than you think

[regal tulip]

yeah thats why i said its going to be a catch up tool?

[dusky surge]

okay cool

[steep echo]

Why should juvi pachy stay at 47.8km/h

I thought it'd be pretty non divisive

[dusky surge]

bro did i start like a carno charge balance feedback trend wtf

[mint star]

trendsetter with god complex........

[leaden remnant]

wat

that's with mutations right

[grizzled anchor]

@dusky surge since we had this conversation yesterday and I just got charged from a carno from 2m away and he was standing still, did they nerf that in ht? (also put me from full life to being one hit with one charge...)

[dusky surge]

oh, no, the only thing that scales with distance is knockdowns, not damage

[grizzled anchor]

Oh wow then carno is way too overpowered damagewise lol

the fact that he could charge standing still is already a big question mark in my head XD

No time to react especially with the lag that every server has. Very weird balancing choice

@digital surge funny becaue I just got hit by one of those instant charges and it put me down to being oneshot and I was full-life as a raptor. I guess the devs dont want raptors to fight carnos at all 🤔 also the downvotes are 100% carno mains XD

[digital surge]

Idm downvotes... unfortunately, it's true. Not saying the raptor pinning mechanic aint busted, but getting one shot by a instant charge out of standing is not... balanced.

(Happened to me earlier, got one tapped as a fg)

[grizzled anchor]

the thing is the raptor pinning is only when the prey is way smaller than the raptor. But instant charge leaves 0 room to react to it. And every mediocre experienced player will just go to a wall and if u dare to step close youre instantly dead its ridiculous. Balancing team are carno mains 100% lol. Raptor used the be the biggest carno counter while still giving a cool fight now carno dominates everything and it can pick its fights idk... I was wondering why I see carno megagroups every single day now I know XD

[digital surge]

Yeah... It's tiring imo. Yes Raptor is strong in big packs, but getting one tapped by a carno who stood still just a moment before? AND doing full dmg like that? Idk, doesn't feel really balanced.

I did try giving suggestions to counter the removal of instant charge, but Carno mains aint happy bout it xD Just like Cera mains who think vomit locking is balanced... where you're unable to run away, or fight back.... being stuck in an animation is super frustrating...

[golden coral]

No, you can pin in groups. Also omni being carno counter is stupid. The entire point of carno is to hunt things like omni.

If you're smaller than carno, you're kind of meant to fear it, not sure how this is news to anyone.

[digital surge]

Well, it is the only creature that is agile enough to keep up with a Carno... Pack's are more feared than a Duo imo. Either way, charging from a standing position and doing as much dmg as you are, just doesn't feel right. The Speed Advantage is still a thing, and from my understanding, Carno is supposed to run down it's pray? Correct me if I am wrong.

[golden coral]

If you have 3+ omnis, then sure a solo carno should fear you, but you're still way below half it's size, so very much the small game it's meant to go after. As for instant charge, I don't really think it needs that, it makes it more into an ambusher than pursuit, but the issue is that charge has never been good for either ambush (until the whole instant thing that makes it great), or pursuit (due to terrible turn radius). I would agree that it's supposed to run down it's prey, but that requires it to be able to keep up with the, as you mentioned, agile critters. Which charge can't do.

[dusky surge]

yup, 350 damage, insanely overtuned

its why i wanted a nerf to its damage

[grizzled anchor]

Tell me another counter to carno then? And Carno is an ambush hunter so it can definetly compete against omnis with a good ambush.
EVERY predator in the game should have at least one matchup thats not in his favour and for carno that simply is omni (only a group of omnis too). And keep in mind carno can just run away VERY easily if he doesnt want to take the fight. Its the fastest land predator so it can pick its fights.

[golden coral]

Nerf to damage, nerf to knockdown threshold. Instant charge is technically fine, after all, omni can "instant pin" smaller things, and possibly still instant pin slightly larger critters if well coordinated(?). The issue is just that charge is bad at pursuing, and the solution was to make it exceptionally good at ambushing instead for some reason.

[digital surge]

I honestly agree that the dmg of just the instant charge itself should be tuned down.

[dusky surge]

did u see my proposal for a reworked carno charge?

[digital surge]

I feel like Carnos are a bit like Cheetas, fast but not much Stamina to keep the speed up.

[golden coral]

Don't need one, it's not a fighting game. As long as you can survive and live, you're good to go. Technically things don't need a "matchup that's not in their favour", it's a bit of a strange reasoning. Carno is kind of countered by being fragile, meaning ceratos can (or should) be able to bully them off of food. And so will larger critters.

[golden coral]

Don't think so, will go have a look

[dusky surge]

i disagree with the cheetah perspective, i think carno should not be built around such an animal

[golden coral]

Agreed, problem is, cheetas can keep up agility wise with their prey. Carno can not.

[shadow vortex]

Carno already has bad match-up and it’s a teno. Omnis are its favorite food

[dusky surge]

#balance-feedback message

this one

[golden coral]

You could easily make carno charge work like a cheetah though, if that's what you'd like

[digital surge]

It's just my observation, unless the Stam is not as bad as I remember it to be... I haven't played it since Spiro.

[dusky surge]

Gateway's carno is a lot more endurance-focused

[grizzled anchor]

teno is an even matchup imo (if we take using the environment out of the picture of course). And even if omnis are its favourite food u think its good that the carno can oneshot a raptor from 2m away without the raptor being able to react? Besides the fact that carno can pick its fights because theres only one playable matching the high speed and its the squishy galli which is no threat at all.

[digital surge]

Ah, then please ignore my previous comment, I was still on Spiro knowledge.

[keen plover]

Carno can't one shot raptors rn lol. Full health raptors can tank a tap charge