balance-feedback-discussion

[umbral solar]

Yeah mabye make stego cooldown 2 seconded then it would be the same as the animation before then no?

[golden coral]

Stego charge swing had a anim, it wasn't a spammable ability, you had to re-raise the tail and all first. Hence why the cooldown is a cooldown, an extra added because... reasons I guess

Then what would be the point of the cooldown if it's the same speed... just remove the cooldown, that's the best option

[dusky surge]

So many downsides I could list them

• 3 second cooldown
• Very high stamcost
• Long endlag
• Locks movement
• Highly commital
• Very easy to punish
• Purely directional, leaves other flanks exposed
• Cannot be utilised while out of stam
• Got a damage nerf very recently
• Loud and extremely choreographed

[golden coral]

They clearly didn't want stego to be a "fluid" animal, and that kind of makes stego rather bad as a playable, saved mostly by sheer stats and terrain

[dusky surge]

No cooldowns, at all.

[golden coral]

Which I find odd, they did the anim after all, could have just made it slower in the first place...

[umbral solar]

Idk stego being able to spam a move that one shots most of our playables right now doesn’t seem fun to me because it’s going to be like the deino situation where’s there’s too many but at least with dienos they will kill each others stegos have no reasons

[golden coral]

Then give stegos reasons, not that they need any more, people are "cannibals" even on stego

[dusky surge]

Okay, literally most of our playables can just walk tf away when they see stego trying that stuff

Also stegos kill each other ALL the time

[golden coral]

But honestly, food competition would be nice. Especially since you can compete vs other adult stegos

Rather than watch the teno or dibble run to your food, eat it, and run away before you get there

That + only 2 adult stegos in a group at max

[dusky surge]

I don't play stego because

A: It genuinely is clunky, unfun and garbage
B: When I do play it, I will most likely be cannibalised

[golden coral]

Would be very nice

[umbral solar]

You pointed out every reason it’s called a power swing and not just a swing

[golden coral]

Meanwhile, omni can also do that now with pin/grapple. Just have x omnis, and you can do that to a lot of stuf, and a solo omni could always do that to a lot of playbles

[umbral solar]

You could say the same about deino that’s a player preference

[dusky surge]

I pointed out every reason it's not a power swing, it's a depower swing. I'm wasting stam using it.

[golden coral]

Maybe the issue is really that stego has no good quick/effeicient options

[dusky surge]

Deino isn't clunky, unfun and garbage. It controls fluidly and can utilise its lunge for a reasonable stamcost and as a movement tool

[umbral solar]

And if it did get a damage nerf it should be buffed once bigger carnivores come out but for now stego is in a fine place

[golden coral]

If they sped up the jabs, equalized their angle speeds and made them much more fluid/less start/endlag, and all that. And put the damage at 1K or so only, then that could be the main stego attack and be good

At that point, it'd be fine to keep powerswing as it currently is, and only use that one for, well, I don't know, last ditch attempt at surviving a rex maybe

[golden coral]

Vs other deinos it is, to be fair

[umbral solar]

Well it has a stun and knockdown I feel like keeping the power swing more as a stun tool then the actual damage would be nice

[golden coral]

Then we'd need another new attack

[umbral solar]

And then have the normal attack be more fluid Beacuse yeah I can agree that the normal one is really stupid

[golden coral]

So you'd have "anti-agile/speed" normal attack, then a stun attack, and then what, a power attack as well

Cause I'm fine with making the power swing be only for really large targets, if the jabs were effective vs small things

In all honesty, I would have changed the damages around

[umbral solar]

I wouldn’t mind that fr

[golden coral]

Made the swing the weak but efficent attack, removed the running one, and then powered up the jab and kept that as a "poke the rex" with

[umbral solar]

That would make stego have a stun for larger playables but keep its swing as its main tool

[golden coral]

And yes, I mean remove the running power swing, a stego should not run at things, it's.... I mean its a cool attack, but it's not at all stego

Makes me feel far more like I'm supposed to be a trike when the attack tells me to charge at something

[umbral solar]

Running while swinging it bad for it but I feel like it does need it for once Rex comes out because why should I be forced to stand still while a Rex is running at me

But also make it so when Rex pins stego it takes dmg from the back spikes

But on the topic of clunky no one has talked about carno charge it’s so useless right now it’s not even a knockdown to stun anymore it’s a headbutt attack

And if it’s going to be that make it a headbutt attack and not a charge

[golden coral]

Could always change it up so jab = quick and efficient, the standing swing = full power, no stun, the running one = stun + power. So you can use that one to stun a rex + damage. Then follow up with standing ones, if you're comfortable enough doing so, hoping to take the rex out. Or if not, run away and attempt another stun/power and maybe then follow up. And then adjust stamina costs for those and all.

[golden coral]

The plates aren't pointy, that's kentro you're thinking of :D

You wouldn't take damage from them, and they're not really armor either from what I know

[umbral solar]

On the female stego they are

[golden coral]

Oh it's been talked about, I agree carno charge is really bad as it stands

[umbral solar]

Idk would give Rex somthing to think about before pinning a 6 hour growth

[golden coral]

Having to run for far too many seconds to get the knockdown on anything is really weird

[golden coral]

"pointy" sure, but not to a damage level I sincerely don't think

[umbral solar]

Last night to knock down a dibble half my size it took half my stam bar

[golden coral]

Much as I love stego, that just feels odd, so I can't see that work out

Leave the "thorns" for kentro :D

[golden coral]

Eyup, you have to run in charge mode for what, 2-3 seconds to get the knockdown

[umbral solar]

True but just feels like somthing nice to use vs Rex

[umbral solar]

No like 5 or 6

[golden coral]

Which is quite harsh for carno, especially since it's meant to go after small and agile stuff

[umbral solar]

2-3 would be nice 💀

[golden coral]

You know, things that won't just stand there and let you hit it

Wait, it's that bad? Last I heard it was only 2-3

[umbral solar]

Can’t even Knock over teno anymore because they can stun you out of charge too

[golden coral]

Oh yeah, they got knockdown resistance on their tailslam

[umbral solar]

Carno has two attacks a headbutt and a bite

[golden coral]

Though with carno being geared towards small game, teno might be the upper limit for it

[golden coral]

Yeah, we're talking about the charge right?

[umbral solar]

Yeah the charge is a headbutt because of how bad it is to use

People only use it for like a second to run past a target and get dmg but the knockdown and stun are all gone

And even if you do knock somthing down that’s 2 bites mabye if your fast before it gets back up but usually it’s one bit before it’s already back to biting you

Idk be better if knockdown is connected to sprinting like if I run for 5 secs then I can knock over a teno by pressing right click

Or make the charge be able to run for that long without wasting my stam bar

[regal tulip]

carno charge is legit useless in something else then a 1v1

takes so much stam the other dino is just gonna walk you down

[umbral solar]

Even in a 1v1 it sucks

Would rather bite

[golden coral]

Ah, yeah I figured, I would have used it the same way myself. Just for added damage, if it does more than the bite at least at impact?

[golden coral]

I thought it was like that at first, that it was a matter of just running, but it's running in charge mode, right?

[umbral solar]

Think it does just a bit more 💀

[golden coral]

So even worse than normal running then xD

[umbral solar]

Yeah but the running gives worse turn and wastes more stam

[golden coral]

But carno is slated for some changes, so we'll see what happens

[umbral solar]

Only trade off is you go slightly faster but I would rather be same speed and be able to waste less stam

[round quiver]

So if I got my stats right, pachy weighs 500kg and runs at 41.8 km/h. Meanwhile omni weighs 450 and runs at 46.8 km/h and cera is 1.3 tons while running at 40.2(I think) why is pachy this slow?

[regal tulip]

i guess to prevent them from chasing carnis around

[round quiver]

I guess so but it doesn't have to me 5 km/h slower then omni, could be like 44.8 or somethin

[tight cove]

That’s way to fast

You don’t have to be fast if you cause fractures

[hasty coyote]

Generally the idea is that its supposed to be a menace for its size tier, hence why its so much slower than omni, and able to fracture larger targets, which is why its barely faster than cera. However, it has received constant nerfs and omni has received constant buffs, so now pachy is generally weaker than an omni.

[round quiver]

Ye thats why I was confused, fractures are cool and all but omni can pin pachy now(I think) and also has no downtime for it's pounce, right?

[hasty coyote]

It can’t pin anymore because it requires 2 now, but still a single pounce can be death if the pachy ain’t near a tree.

[distant torrent]

@pearl elbow honestly 50 bleed is still too high imo because that’s a lot of fight left before bleeding out. grapple should have both a 20% bleed prerequisite and a 20% stamina prerequisite along with the typical weight prerequisite

it’s currently a move that denies the victim any chance of fighting back. their only choice is to either just exit the game or watch the overly extended death screen play out while nothing can be done

people should be rewarded for managing their stam in an omni fight despite low bleed (which makes stam harder to regen).

the reward? not getting grappled and not having to watch what’s essentially an over extended death screen

[pearl elbow]

Perhaps the 20% blood loss could work, though I feel is too much for most animals especially low mid tiers. The need for stamina and blood being at both 20% is unnecessary though as that would be too much for the Utah's to cage, I think just having it focused around the bleed works well. Also it allows the defending playable to use their stamina how they deem, like bucking, running and fighting. If they run low on stamina then the raptors catch up pounce and most likely pin

I realize the numbers will have to go through several renditions like 40 or 30% blood loss, but for now this is a much better system

[distant torrent]

grapple as a whole is unnecessary though. omni was fine without it, so it didn’t need a move that denies people the ability to fight back entirely. having those three prerequisites would still be a major buff to omni because it’d still have grapple, it’d just take more pack coordination and prey mistake to do

it’d be different though if grapple allowed input and fighting back from prey

[pearl elbow]

I agree

it did not require the grapple mechanic but if it is here to stay at least make it a dangerous part of their kit which balanced. Oh and the second part of my feedback has been released.

[distant torrent]

yea. ideally grapple should not be an upgraded version of pin and should be more fun for both sides with both having input. having a single move that takes away all input from one side until they’re sent to the spawn screen is just… not fun at all lol I really worry about that for allo

[pearl elbow]

I completely agree with that last statement a hundred percent. I wanted to address this issue before the power creep grows exponentially with additions like rex, acro, allo and so forth. Giving more options and a choice for each side leads to far more thrilling gameplay

[regal tulip]

just make grapple a fancy finisher that applies instead of the normal ragdoll at under 10% hp

omni packs are basically deino right now but way faster

[pearl elbow]

They are definitely as dangerous. Just need to get the balance right so the grapple mechanic is more of state you want to avoid by playing to your advantages then being a flat out encounter of death with no escape

[gentle stirrup]

@spiral kindle Only thing I see wrong here, is that I think Carno should be able to knock downs smaller than it, including Teno

[spiral kindle]

Thats op

u cant give him flat out buffs there needs to compensation

he needs to be like his old self but be worst at killing stuff above cerato weight

Teno would still get stunned anyways

cause if it got knocked down then u would be able to get a follow up bite

which is op considering there would be no downside

[gentle stirrup]

Maybe it’s supposed to be that way Carno is like a train going full speed, so if you get hit by you get knocked over

[spiral kindle]

Yes ik but thats the only way u can make him worst at killing stuff bigger than dilo

i agree with you but for balance reasons it just shouldnt

[gentle stirrup]

Hmm guess so

[tiny thicket]

Is cera going to be same or will it have little bit of oompf when allo is released? And by oompf I mean bonebreak. I don't see cera will survive after making allo puke.

[alpine plover]

Cerato was never intended to be a bone breaking nonetheless, so it wouldn’t make sense to give it bone break. I wouldn’t mind a septic bite rework to make cerato a bit more “threatening” but a probable way for cerato to counter Allo would be heading to the waters, seen as it was shown in the concept art.

[tiny thicket]

I don't understand how something that locks its jaws in place only to clamp it shut in blink of an eye apply vomit sickness in any form. An besides it eats bones so it has bonebreak but doesn't use it, u need ability to bone break to eat bones that is just common sense.

[golden coral]

Because that's how cerato is designed, is the answer. And vomit will get a bit worse or so I've heard. Plus that allo might not have much stam, so even one vomit might be enough to then run away from it.

Of course, you're probably going to have to worry more about getting grappled in the first place

[tiny thicket]

I am not saying vomit sickness is bad or less threatening its just that the mechanic is on the wrong playable.

[keen plover]

Why not just run / avoid the much larger predator like any other matchup?

[golden coral]

If you're fast enough, sure

[tiny thicket]

I can't imagine something with short legs outrun a bigger and agile predator. Why doesn't Pachy just run from carno? wait Pachy doesn't have to be faster than carno if it can leg break.

[keen plover]

Long or short legs, it doesn't matter. You can make a creature any speed if it's necessary.

It's a game at the end of the day

Cera having fractures messes with more than one matchup anyways. I personally don't think it's necessary, especially when cerato has the tools to escape. It swims very fast at minimum.

[tiny thicket]

The cera can run but it is too big to hide and there will be barys and suchos in water waiting for it, idk how it will work.

[alpine plover]

Not every water source is going to occupied with Suchos/deinos/bary.

And cerato isn’t even that big, carno already dwarfs it to an extent. It can very much hide from allo

[tiny thicket]

It depends on how good of a tracker allo is.

Like bloodhounds hunting the prey.

[tiny thicket]

Cera with "bloodhound" playstyle instead of "hyena" playstyle would be kinda neat, no septic bite just bone break, tracking and hyper aggressive playstyle.

[dusky surge]

we already have enough bloodhounds planned, that would remove the one unique niche cerato has lol

[tiny thicket]

Which ones are planned?

[dusky surge]

giga, rex, mono, megalania off the top of my head

megalania especially would have massive overlap because it's also a rot-eating menace within the same weight class as cerato

[tiny thicket]

Isn't Rex an ambusher?

Megalania would be septic bite and bleeder.

[dusky surge]

based on how Dondi has literally called it a bloodhound, probably not

[tiny thicket]

And what about Alberto?

[dusky surge]

no one knows what alberto is planned to do besides kill stego lol, the concept art told us nothing

[alpine plover]

Literally

[dusky surge]

also, megalania likely won't have septic bite, more than likely it'll have some kind of unique venom, probably anti-coagulant to keep animals bleeding for longer

its shown in its concept art to literally bite prey, then track for great distances by following the scent of its blood, so it is very much bloodhound-esque

[alpine plover]

sceptic

[dusky surge]

god dammit

[keen plover]

Personally, I think bacteria based cera is cool.

[alpine plover]

If you had a nickel for every time you spelled sceptic instead of septic how much would you have

[dusky surge]

as do i, i just wish it was... differently executed

[keen plover]

Same

[dusky surge]

i'd prefer lasting effects to what we have now

[keen plover]

I dislike how it uses the bacteria to hunt slow herbis. I dislike how small tiers generally ignore the bacteria due to low hp.

[alpine plover]

How would you rework it? out of curiosity?

[keen plover]

I also dislike how carno can tank a few hits, run off and come back into a fight - since all the bacteria build up goes away

[keen plover]

I'd make it so carnivores are generally worse off when facing the bacteria. Herbi's would hopefully require more hits than a carnivore. So if Carno takes 5 bites to puke right now, I'd make it so teno takes like 8 for example.

I'd also make it so bacteria scales. It shouldn't take 5 bites to puke a tiny animal for example. It also shouldn't take 5 bites to puke a stego.

Finally, I'd make it so the bacteria didn't block attacks. Maybe the cera pukes you once and then it gains something from having you in the 'sick state '

• Forgot about this, but I'd make it so the bacteria timer is longer. So Carno's for example can't run away and then come back into the fight in like a minute or 2

[dusky surge]

here's how I'd do sceptic bite

application:

• no more "buildup" over stomach, every bite applies 30 seconds of the "infection" debuff. Charge bites apply one minute of it.

effects:

• random vomiting. will continue until the disease is cured. Every 5 seconds, a 1% chance of vomiting will proc. If it activates, you will puke. You will have a 30 second grace period if you vomit before the chance to vomit again will occur.
• no healing. infection just flat out cancels healing until cured (cured by wallowing)

It encourages you to bugger off and not deal with the cerato's BS, while not doing stuff like stunlocking a dibble so you get free bites, allowing the dibble to counterattack, for instance

also means that little guys aren't safe from the bacteria, and should still back off and respect you, as well as ensuring that every bite will have value against an opponent

[alpine plover]

So the infection can last infinitely untill you either die/wallow?

[dusky surge]

well, no

it will go away eventually

it just gets stacked on by a lot of cera bites

[keen plover]

I like the idea. Although it does say cured by wallowing

[dusky surge]

the healing part, yea, the vomiting part is by salt

i did this because i want cerato to absolutely never be worth the trouble of trying to undo its garbage

[alpine plover]

Oh I was just wondering if any other causes could happen if you don’t treat the infection. For example, effecting your growth rate (irl bacterial infections can cause this in animals).

But since itll go away eventually I guess it doesn’t matter

[tiny thicket]

Ok my guess would be
Giga - haemorrhage stuff
Rex- brute force ambusher
Megalania- venom bleeder and septic bite both.
Mono- (Mucous)hound

Non of these fall into bloodhound criteria.

[dusky surge]

dondi has LITERALLY referred to rex as a bloodhound

and i believe has stated rex may be more focused on endurance over ambush now

also, cerato has an extremely unique niche atm. Making it into a bloodhound and sacrificing what it has now is not worth it imho, especially given the fact that "defensive carnivores" are extremely rare as concepts

[tiny thicket]

Anything caught in rexes jaws wouldn't survive enough imo

[dusky surge]

yea, that's still the idea

the difference is rex will follow you until it can land that bite

[tiny thicket]

So Rex doesn't track blood so it is just hound

[dusky surge]

seems that way, although bloodhounds don't require blood lol

[mint star]

megalania no septic bite ,,,,

making your target vomit isnt useful for megalania

and """"stamina draining"""" is horrendously boring

[dusky surge]

@feral hazel seems cool, but quite complex to make work

[feral hazel]

Yeah, when I thought about it I was not sure if I want to suggest it as it seems to be pretty complicated so I was sitting on it for a few days. Then I just went f-it, posting it doesn't hurt anybody

but I feel like slower dinosaurs such as Ankylos will suffer so much on Gateway

[dusky surge]

yea, fair enough, i just am a little unsure of how it'd work given how the game currently handles water

[dusky surge]

idk, it depends heavily on how the migration system and so on evolves

migrations aren't done and dusted yet, so we don't know if they'll end up allowing certain animals to be more roamers

[feral hazel]

like imagine being a slow dinosaur on this part. Even as a Dibble its terrible

[feral hazel]

Agree It's highly depends on the MZ and stamina system

also on the map changes

[dusky surge]

anky could also have a ridiculously long dehydration time too, we just don't know yet

[feral hazel]

true

I don't know, so far MZ and the map and stamina system created such a pain in the ass overall experience. Atleast for not speed and stamina heavy dinosaurs. Since the new stamina system, the game promotes only using stamina during combat, or atleast it promotes the use of running as the mean of travel way less. I forgot to save the freaking notepad but it took around 35 minutes to reach the new MZ as a Diablo and where I got there it only had S diets

[dusky surge]

i doubt our likely slowest non-sauropod will be left to die the moment it leaves the side of natural resources lol

[feral hazel]

well yeah but it can still feel to be pain in the ass, because the map is clearly designed in a way where traveling is infinitely more easier for dinosaurs that having a jump/good fall dmg resistance and speed. I experienced on my own skin, due to the hilly design one wrong turn can cost you extra 10 minutes traveling cause you have to go back so much cause in many spots mountains and hills are hugging certain areas.

I hated big part of V3 as it was so annoying to travel in and I feel like even tho Gateway is infinitely superior to V3, (imo) it falls short in many cases that was an issue even years ago

[dusky surge]

I do think the paths help deal with a lot of the issue for me, even with less bouncy dinos, as they're near always safe, flat ground

[feral hazel]

That is true. But pathing in some cases takes extra time. I also don't like how pathing sometimes the only way to get somewhere in a huge chunk of an area. Such when you travel from highlands to the swamp MZ as a Diablo

Tunnels are cool tho ngl

[alpine plover]

#balance-feedback message

The downvotes are interesting

I personally think it makes cerato a lot more fun with this redesign

[dusky surge]

im wondering why they dislike it

is it because they like current cera, or i've made a fundamental mistake lol

i'd argue it's a buff to cera, but in a way that isn't frustrating to deal with

[alpine plover]

Probably bc they like current cera or maybe the latter as well

[dusky surge]

I think the two effects, the duration of the effects and the fact that it actually requires you to seek out "cures" makes the overall creature more interesting

It's still painful for stego to have to deal with a cera pack, but it isn't forced into an obnoxious stunlock

also actually biting an omni, and it being punished? What?

no longer will people run into ceras to kill them then eat the bodies, because if you try, it'll bite the hell out of you, inflict you with several minutes of infection and ruin your life lol

leave it and its corpse alone

[analog mirage]

I would like if when you vomit from Ceras bacteria some debuffs apply to you and get worse the longer you are sick so in an actual fight it can help Cera a bit

[dusky surge]

nah, you get the benefit of an instant radar ping of where that dude went

thats good imho

i personally want cerato's septic bite to be more of a "god i dont want that status effect" over "i shall use this for a combat advantage"

[analog mirage]

I think it should have a bit of both

Deter things from confronting cera and still help it if it’s in an avail fight

[dusky surge]

cerato already has damage resist on bodies, bleed resist, a very strong charge bite, etc

[dusky surge]

but current septic bite doesn't really do that much either, it's a momentary stun that has a long cooldown, its purely offensive in all honesty

[analog mirage]

The bleed resistance is a bit of a joke because by itself cera has not a lot of health, and since that bleed resistance goes away after half your health is gone. It’s not really that effective. I want ceras bleed resistance to stay on it at all times or just until it reaches red health

And body buff is just very situational and while good on paper, rarely ever happens

Unless you are in a hotspot

[shadow vortex]

I myself don’t exactly see what in the idea worsens the cera’s ability to hunt besides stunlock riddance. I only can imagine that fights will last longer, but also there will be a chance for a cera to stalk the prey (via continued vomiting). Ceras will still probably get free hits if they just walk closely to the hunted thing, because some animals puke for 3 whole seconds, meaning that ceras can engage during this.

My last point probably will only work with creatures slower than a cera or of the same speed, but still, cera anyway doesn’t hunt anything faster.

Maybe 5% chance isn’t that much and ceras won’t get an opportunity of doing so, so these are just my assumptions.

[dusky surge]

Puke deactivates attacks and sprint meaning you’re forced to stand there and take tons of hits. In some creatures like pachy, this is flat out lethal

No chance of survival type beat

[shadow vortex]

Yep, I know. That’s what I talked about

[leaden remnant]

i mean, i don't really care about it, but i honestly think it's a bit too crazy

making someone vomit is really bad in my opinion, losing your diets is an inmense debuff

^^ so the random vomit till you heal is way too far

it would be a guaranteed lose all your diets which you probably ain't gonna get back

[analog mirage]

Then don’t fight the cera

It’s supposed to be a way to discourage you from fighting it in the first place

[leaden remnant]

it's supposed to discourage you, not make it an absolute death sentence or the most annoying thing in existence

one single vomit is good enough

and the no healing thing... boi

[analog mirage]

Not really. You vomit once, you wait and heal it

[leaden remnant]

you barely have any diet hex left

good luck getting it back if you're not a raptor

[analog mirage]

It’s not hard to get diets

[leaden remnant]

it is when intestines bigger than you give like 30%

[analog mirage]

The punishment is that you won’t be getting them back for a while if you continuously vomit

[leaden remnant]

if you're a fully grown carno fighting a cera and you vomit once, you better kill that cera quick enough and eat his organs then keep searching for food

[analog mirage]

The only creature I would say that does have a hard time getting diets would be like Carno and that’s it

[leaden remnant]

if you lose the lines, you are most likely not getting them back

[dusky surge]

In many situations, you literally won’t vomit, because the chances aren’t likely for you to do so

[leaden remnant]

... unless you find dilos

[dusky surge]

The idea is to make it less of a death sentence lol

[dusky surge]

????

What do dilos gotta do with it

[leaden remnant]

they give lines

[leaden remnant]

true, missed this part

eh, i think it's fine atm ngl

[analog mirage]

It’s not

[dusky surge]

The goal is to not allow you to skirt around cerato’s debuffs, and encourage avoidance. It also helps remove stun locking, which makes many animals unfairly killed by cera

[leaden remnant]

what do u believe is not fine with it atm

[analog mirage]

Because it’s purely base on your current food it means a creature with a full stomach takes much more bacteria to make them vomit once

Something like a raptor or dilo also doesn’t care much about the bacteria. It will die of raw damage before it vomits

And cera doesn’t deal much damage

[tall bronze]

I mean one glaring issue even Don has agreed is bad is the fact that if you're faster than the Cerato, you can just tank the bites until the bacteria buildup gets too high, back off, wait a minute and it resets. Rinse and repeat and you never vomit

Carno is the best example with this.

[analog mirage]

^

And bacteria heals very fast

Cera is just really flawed atm

[leaden remnant]

uh

cera does a lotta damage

not built for it but still one of the best fighters there is

[tall bronze]

It's a good case of "it's not bad, it's just not good in the way it should be" <:P

[leaden remnant]

maybe maybe

[dusky surge]

Exactly. This does away with that, it was an issue I wanted to see gone too

You get bit once, you still suffer the effects

[leaden remnant]

thing is tho, i don't believe that ceras should be avoided all the time yknow

[tall bronze]

Always did irk me that in the reveal trailer for Cerato, the Carno pukes after it runs away
.....which isn't how it really works

[leaden remnant]

they should not be the primary prey but they shouldn't be able to destroy your life with a single bite

[dusky surge]

That is fundamentally their design goal lol

You leave them to their rotting corpse

[leaden remnant]

that's why i like the way it works right now, it's annoying as heck to fight but doesn't make your whole existence pain if you get bit once

[leaden remnant]

im aware, but only one bite giving you so many debuffs? eh

[dusky surge]

If it had bacteria, yea.

[leaden remnant]

i like playing cera, yknow, but i just find it a bit too crazy

[tall bronze]

One thing I can agree m i g h t not be best is just having it be 1 bite = insta infection for anything.
Scaling with weight would be more ideal, but it being fairly lenient for the most part. I don't wanna see Cera players figuring out the exploit of "guys let's all rush this Stego or T.Rex and just spam bite so they get super sick lmao we're so skilled"

[dusky surge]

I find the stuns too crazy, personally

[leaden remnant]

i do as well

too long in my opinion

[dusky surge]

The way vomit works now is a massive snowball effect. After the first vomit, basically any one bite will cause vomit

[regal tulip]

unless you waste all your bile while vomit is on cd

[dusky surge]

Cooldown also feels a little strange and unintuitive

[leaden remnant]

i agree

[dusky surge]

I want septic bite to suck long term, rather than just kill you short term

[leaden remnant]

however, in my opinion, one single nibble removing your ability to heal until you do certain things that get rid of it, giving you a small chance of puking each 10 seconds, etc, damn

[tall bronze]

You'd think being more full would make you more likely to vomit. More stuff in your stomach n' all....

[leaden remnant]

if cera sucked at fighting i would be all for it

but cera is great at fighting

[tall bronze]

One indirect issue Cera (and others) also has is that anything that isn't death is pretty much meaningless.
Get sick? Lose nutrients? Meh, kill it anyways and just munch on some AI or grass afterwards, then AFK heal lol.
There is v e r y little incentive to actually keep your dinosaur healthy and happy right now. As long as you don't straight up die, it doesn't matter.

[regal tulip]

would actually prefer that, prevent a bit of KOSing

[leaden remnant]

pretty much

thats why i like infections n stuff

[regal tulip]

and would mean that you have a chance to not starve when the only thing around are ceras

[leaden remnant]

if you go too crazy yeah get ready boi

[leaden remnant]

yknow, giving fights aftermath

[dusky surge]

I like infections for cera, but I think it as a universal mechanic is needless complexity

[dusky surge]

That’s why I want this, because the infection gotten from fighting the cera would suck enough to genuinely concern people.

I’m just sick of “bite till vomit, then kill because lol ez”

[alpine plover]

I genuinely hope we get more qol patches to further incentivize keeping your Dino healthy and good, because rn it’s very lack luster and no one really cares.

[cosmic pelican]

@steel hatch troodon and dilo have venom already by the time theyre 50% grown.

[steel hatch]

Are you sure? I didn't get any with my Dilo and I'm at 53%

[cosmic pelican]

Dilos venom is a bit more finicky, it will take a while to apply because youre so small compared to whatever youre hunting.
But I know for a fact troodon gets venom by the time its 50%, more specifically when it reaches 30kg

[steel hatch]

ok, then I'm going to delete my feedback and try again

[thorn pecan]

@tribal idol why should juvi and sub adult deinos be the same speed or slower as full growns?

[tribal idol]

I just don't see why we need to buff it when I was a deino around 40% grown and escaped multiple encounters with adult deinos on HT, its just gonna get us closer to spiro land deino

[thorn pecan]

25 kph isn't fast enough to catch anything in the game with the exception of babies

additionally even 20 kph would be more than adequate to escape adults, and considering the fastest a deino can run at any given point is 16 kph is ridiculous, full grown deino used to run at 18.8

deino has been nerfed into obscurity

[tribal idol]

yea thats true, but on spiro its not that deinos were quicker than everything, its that they were fast enough to catch people off guard because they were so close to the ground

[thorn pecan]

if they're not careful they deserve to be caught

I'm not even a deino main, I've played deino only a few times, but its unplayable if I can't escape adults, the only advantage is more stam than them

[tribal idol]

its not even about being careful, its that something that's 2 tons and can run 25 kph and is so low to the ground u cant see it coming, if your far away from water your maybe looking for ceras or omnis, but its almost impossible to see a camo deino in the grass

[thorn pecan]

theres already mutations to drink saltwater or even during storms where you don't even need to drink, deinos have way less prey and the prey they encounter is now almost impossible to catch

deino has had a massive stam nerf, massive speed nerf, and its prey is now able to avoid it entirely by just drinking saltwater

[tribal idol]

I play deino probably once a week on HT and its not hard to escape adults deinos as anything below 80% grown, you just dodge as u are much more agile in water and have way more stam

[tribal idol]

Deino on HT is way better than current branch in terms of getting prey, ive been able to find players way more often, not to mention u can be a salt water deino as well

[thorn pecan]

I've played deino only a few times, so its not like its very welcoming to new players where unless you're e sports you can't dodge, run from, or evade larger deinos once they're on you

I can't tell if you're gaslighting honestly

[tribal idol]

not really e sports dodging, u can just dodge and swim a good bit then dodge again, adult deino stam in water is ok, but will almost always run out before u die as a 50%

[thorn pecan]

I was on land, assuming I could outrun an 8 ton croc as a 2 ton croc

which in previous patches you could do easily

and thats how it should be

[tribal idol]

I mean maybe it could be like this, but u should only be maybe 1 or 2 kph quicker, or they could make smaller deinos quicker in water, it just shouldnt be anywhere above 20 kph on land

[thorn pecan]

1-2 kph is less than a meter a second and we're talking about massive crocs, its so negligible of a difference it would do exactly nothing. It takes 5 bites to kill me and if I'm in his hitbox that means I have to hope I can gain 3 meters before I die, or hope he doesn't lunge which has a massive hitbox

[stone goblet]

i think smaller deinos should be atleast double adult speed on land

[tribal idol]

...

[thorn pecan]

you're the guy who thinks deinos should run 16 kph tops which is completely unrealistic for 1, and unbalanced

[tribal idol]

I mean as a smaller deino u should be paying attention to your environment, and if your 1-2 quicker than u should be find if you spot them before there on top of you

it also allows an adult deino if they sneak up on you to get a good kill

[thorn pecan]

okay, I guess you should spot the grass deinos before they're on you as well

you cant say, oh you dont have to be aware of camo deinos but you have to be aware under x circumstances

[tribal idol]

thats not even close to comparable, its much easier to spot another deino in water(also smaller deinos have better water vision) so its much more reasonable to expect a player to be able to see them

[thorn pecan]

what about winding rivers and corners where you can't?

or where they stand still and you can't detect them

[tribal idol]

if you go around a corner an theres an adult deino waiting for you than thats them getting a good ambush, and if a smaller deino is always faster by a good amount than adult deinos would never realistically kill a deino from 40-80% grown

[thorn pecan]

the issue is they're not faster in water or on land

[tribal idol]

and as I was saying earlier about dodging, even if a adult deino gets on top of you, if your 1-2 kph quicker then all you need is to get a small gap which isnt hard by dodging

[thorn pecan]

realistically on land deinos should be way way faster when they're 2 tonnes than when they're 8 tonnes

[thorn pecan]

dodging on land, which deinos are notoriously bad at doing

[tribal idol]

sure, but them we go back to spiro deinos in center which no one wants

[tribal idol]

dodging in water

[thorn pecan]

my entire post in about speed on land? Why are you even leaving an X if you don't even know what I'm talking about and then suggesting nonsense feedback?

[tribal idol]

in your post u are talking about speed on land, but u also mention it being slower in water and on land, it doesn't need to be much fast on land, it can be 1-2 kph faster on both land and water

[golden coral]

If the other one is so close as to hit you, then yes, you die. If you're faster and see it in time, then you can escape. Don't need to be faster than that + have more stamina (which I'm pretty sure juvies overall have). And deino is hardly meant to be easy to grow or play, much less be welcoming to newer players. Currently deino seems to be okay, with a sparse but still existing population.

[thorn pecan]

If the adult deino doesn't want you to escape he can grab you instead which takes a lot more stamina and means little ones can still escape. Additionally it is incredibly unrealistic that the fastest a deinosuchus in its entire lifespan can go 16.2 kph tops considering crocodiles can do way way faster than that. Not only is it not balanced, it's not even realistic. In what world do a 2 tonne and an 8 tonne croc run at the same speed? It's not Earth

[golden coral]

Sure, them being the exact same speed is not ideal, but the smaller ones don't have to be more than a little bit faster to be fine, as long as they have more stamina (enough to get out of sight and be able to hide somewhere and all that). Not entirely sure what you meant with grabbing and then still being able to escape?

[thorn pecan]

because the grab on deino does much less damage than the jump but has a bigger hitbox meaning that a deino can secure its prey with a larger hitbox but do less damage, when the target is stunned/disoriented when the grab is finished get a bite or 2 and if the smaller deino hasn't already died the smaller deino can RUN onto LAND to escape. Realistically speaking a large croc 1-2 tonnes can run almost 30kph for a limited time. Deinos 1-2 tonnes used to be able to go 25-28kph in The Isle on land which is completely reasonable and realistic. I just grew a deino and the fastest a deino goes at any stage of its life is 16 kph which is far far too slow. In water adults can go faster as they always have, and its more balanced. If little ones want to escape they can run onto land and even then deinos have to return to the water within 5 minutes or thirst to death so even if the smaller deino goes on land the larger one still has a chance to get it when it returns to the water. That was a balanced dynamic that required strategy from both deinos to win the encounter. Now its, ohh heck I got ambushed by a 8 tonne croc when I'm only 2 tonnes let me run on land, ohh heck he runs just as fast as me and can kill me in 5 bites and I have no way to escape in either land or water because he's always faster and I have to hope he runs out of stam before he bites me 5 times while being immensely faster? There's no way to escape and I spent 5 hours growing my deino to die because I can't outrun a 100% full grown. Its 1st unbalanced, 2nd unrealistic, 3rd unenjoyable. Deino has the most unique niche in the game and has been nerfed to hell, stamina has been reduced greatly, speed was almost halved, and sub adults are slower than adults.

Do you not see a problem with this?

And deinos can't exactly hide once spotted. Once I'm caught I'm dead.

[leaden remnant]

the smaller one can't run once it's grabbed

all your stamina goes away in 4 seconds and you drown

once a bigger one sees you, you're dead, there is no chance, there is no escape, there is no nothing

[thorn pecan]

I didn't even know all your stam was gone when you get grabbed, sheesh

[golden coral]

Again, being just a little bit faster would be enough, no reason to go from 16 was it(?) to 25+, when you can go to 18-20 at most for the juvies. I simply disagree with how fast juvies should be, not that they should not be faster than an adult. As for deino being nerfed, well, maybe it's finally somewhat balanced then.

[thorn pecan]

but sub adult deino right now is cancer

[leaden remnant]

it's the same thing as if anything else was grabbed

you drown at the same speed and you lose all your stam

so you are completely hopeless

in fact you lose it like twice or three times faster than the deino who grabs you so yeah

not to mentino that a fg deino can grab up to an 87% grown deino

[thorn pecan]

It should be 24 kph when fastest, its not unrealistically slow, but its not super powerful. 16 is abysmal, especially for traveling

it took me 40 minutes to travel 2 kilometers

with no breaks

[leaden remnant]

almost fg but boom you die to something that you cant do anything about 🤷‍♂️

[thorn pecan]

If I didn't have Reabsorption during a storm I'd have died

[leaden remnant]

better pray the deino who sees you is merciful

cause that's your only choice

[golden coral]

Well, mutations seem to be for that, being able to do things you don't normally. But sure, speed up the juvie and sub a bit if needed, just avoid it being too easy for them to go around and do stuff they shouldn't and all that.

[thorn pecan]

In previous patches I've been able to make that trip. Stam is nerfed into the ground, speed is nerfed into the ground, 30% deino can hardly sprint for a full minute and with the current stam system you can only sprint in increments of 20-25 seconds or your stam won't regen while you walk. And your speed is 16kph tops, so 1 sprint with deino is about 100 meters. Then you walk at about 1.5m/s so thats why a 2 kilometer journey now takes 40 minutes when it used to take 10

Deino moves on land with an average 3kph pace and it used to be 12kph.

nerfing stam? Fine. Nerfing speed? Too far

I'm not even a deino main, deino is just completely unenjoyable because without perks you can't explore beyond the basic river system.

[eager saddle]

wait what.

that's stupid, I thought you could only grab something with a lot less weight

[dusky surge]

in the water, you can grab anything 6 tons or less lol

[golden coral]

Well, maybe you aren't meant to really make that trip, or to have to use mutations to do so at least (not ideal perhaps, but still). I'm not sure, but they might not want deino to explore all around, you're a deino after all, your main job is to sit in a good spot and jump out to grab people every now and then. And yeah, stamina is rough, but that goes for all playables really. And sure, you could speed juvies and subs up, I'm not against that, but I don't think they might need to go that fast that you want.

[eager saddle]

bruh that's so incredibly stupid, how are you ever supposed to survive anything

[golden coral]

Yeah, deino got weight increase for swimming things because clearly stegos were too evil or something

[dusky surge]

the consistent need for deino players to kill stegos has made it even worse for young deinos lol

[eager saddle]

its because stegos had nothing to fear in the water I think

[leaden remnant]

you aint

[eager saddle]

yeah definitely, they forgot about that aspect

[leaden remnant]

(💀)

[eager saddle]

this summarizes it so accurately, especially the last bit

[golden coral]

Might get worse, if they want deino to grab rex and trike and other large things swimming too

Unless they add some exception to grabbing other deinos perhaps

[eager saddle]

they would have to, if they make younger deinos heavier the other playables will suffer

[thorn pecan]

Deino has had so many nerfs already

• spawn at 40kg which is the lowest spawn weight to full grown weight ratio in the game.
• most dinosaurs gain most of their weight in the first 40-50%, Deino gains most of its weight by 70-80%, worst of all species.
• Deino is the slowest playable on land in the game at 16 kph, next slowest is beipi at 27 kph last patch, its faster now.
• Deino stamina has been nerfed
• Deino speed has been halved
• Deino can't travel to other water sources without reabsorption OR reticulate kidneys meaning it must waste 2 mutation slots just to travel and even then it is conditional (has to be raining)
• Deino juvi and sub adult can't outrun full grown in water or on land
• Deino also is unable to find food readily as reticulate kidneys and reabsorption are some of the most popular mutations meaning they don't have to drink during storms

So in the last few patches Deino has

• Been reduced in weight to near helplessness
• Been reduced to the slowest playable by double digits
• Has the worst stamina in the game
• Is unable to travel due to poor speed, stam and abysmal thirst
• Is unable to escape cannibals
• Lost an abundant and dependable source of food

[leaden remnant]

does deino actually gain water during storms or just loses it slowly

[thorn pecan]

Obviously Deino being a fat croc is not going to be an adept traveler but if the speed of smaller crocs was increased it would

• Help deinos travel even a little bit faster
• Help escape cannibals
• Help snatch babies close to the water
• Make Deino growth unique. Similarly to how sub adult and juvi rex in legacy were faster than adults by a fair margin, Deinos would be the same. This means that the difference in stages would actually be unique instead of being a smaller version of the full grown croc. Additionally smaller crocs can't grab a lot of things so the land speed advantage would allow them to track further from the water

[thorn pecan]

loses slowly, takes about 40 minutes

[leaden remnant]

nice

[thorn pecan]

much preferable to 6

[leaden remnant]

yep

[nova sandal]

Am I the only one who thinks (Sub) Omni should'nt be able to pin down a Herra(adult) without any chance of the Herra escaping with its life.

[leaden remnant]

probably

just don't get pinned, it sounds stupid but it's the only way

look for raptors, try to hear their footsteps, recognize their footprints, etc

[distant torrent]

nope! omni’s pin being a one shot has been a problem for a long time on gateway. it was a lot more balanced on spiro because it seemed to have a chance (might’ve been a bug?) to release prey on the first pin, but it was a guaranteed pin if you got caught again (at least for dryo. that seemed to happen a lot when I played a lot of that on spiro)

it was pretty nice and far more balanced than what we have now. omni also didn’t have enough stam to one-shot things of similar size and had to resort to tracking them down via bleed

I remember dondi saying that the current galli v omni pin isn’t going to stay how it currently is? or implied it. I remember some dev basically implying that lol hopefully that goes for every other pin too

[steep echo]

I think pinning should just eat your stamina up

but I am biased towards tiny tier

[distant torrent]

honestly I wouldn’t mind a “Slippery Prey” mutation just for small tiers only that allows an escape from a pin with a cooldown

prerequisite to unlock: get pinned by an omni and live

[thick echo]

That would be nice but I don't really think its going to be possible for small tiers to be able to live an Omni pin under normal circumstances. It just does so much damage. Would much prefer it to be an unlockable mutation and not a passive mutation where you need to get pinned in order to unlock it

[distant torrent]

yea that’s very true. it’d be hard to get with omni’s current pin unless a friend could help, which should be avoided because it’d just suck if you’re solo

[thick echo]

Yeah Omni is just not fun to deal with currently especially with Grapple, I really don't like how grapple takes stamina into account especially when bucking costs so much stamina to use and get any results from

[thorn pecan]

#balance-feedback message Thats is exclusive to only the South Plains sanctuary where adults can enter. If you don't like it just go to a different sanctuary

@balmy granite

[balmy granite]

Bruh, didn't know it had different properties

[gentle stirrup]

@cedar beacon wouldn’t if the Dino has 200% growth rate it would be the same time as if the Dino didn’t have the extra 2x times slower rebuff

[cedar beacon]

@gentle stirrup If the Apex has perfect diet it will grow normaly but if it doesnt have the perfect diet just normal diet, it will grow like 28 hours or not grow at all with no diets. just a suggestion for the apex system in evrima

[alpine plover]

What that’s crazy lol, Rex in legacy took 7-8 hours to grow, personally a no diet Rex shouldn’t be taking 28 hours to get full adult, maybe 10 or 12

[dusky surge]

"Make apexes growth 2x longer but make perfect diet growth boost 200%, so i'll be hard to grow, not like in legacy"

If we do the maths on that, a growth boost of 200% = a growth speed of 300%

So on a full diet, you actually have 2/3rds the growth time lol

Unless they want a growth boost where you grow at 200% the normal speed, but that's what we already have

[cedar beacon]

@alpine plover Deino growth takes 11 hours on base diet just saying lol

[alpine plover]

#balance-feedback message agree

[leaden remnant]

@mortal locust it exists

the icon is 3 red raptors

[mortal locust]

OHH thank you

[leaden remnant]

gotta smell for a while tho

pleasure

[slim dragon]

@dusky surge Ok but then what's the use of the pounce ?

[dusky surge]

Building the venom stacks and damage

The bite has basically no value unless you pounce lol

[slim dragon]

You said it was not applied by pounce

[dusky surge]

The current pounce is unchanged

It's still a damage multiplier

[slim dragon]

I'm not sure I understand

[dusky surge]

Okay.

Pounce = envenomation stack

[slim dragon]

So troodon has 2 different venom mechanics ?

[dusky surge]

Yes.

This is a fictional ass creature I can give it two different venoms if I want

Like how the bombadier beetle has a whole-ass chemical nightmare inside it

[slim dragon]

Ok but people can already barely understand its single venom mechanic as of now

[dusky surge]

Yes.

I am aware of this, but I need a justifiable reason to half troodon's health

[slim dragon]

I don't like venom being split into 2 different things
I mean I like the venom rework you provided, but the fact there's 2 independant venoms feels off

[dusky surge]

I'm aware of this, but removing the main mechanic also screws Troodon

[slim dragon]

#general-feedback message

What do you think of this rework idea ?

[alpine plover]

Apparently it wasn’t even a large buff, someone tested it and they said it was 85 health

[dusky surge]

Nope, 120

QA says its 120, my testing says its 120, it's def 120. He just got bit in the head, I literally even mathematically proved it lol

[alpine plover]

Oh

[sleek sierra]

#balance-feedback message

Shouldn't be losing that much stamina just to get over a tree. Are you holding shift while you do this?

@alpine plover

[alpine plover]

Nope, and this problem is really bad when traversing and coming across vertical terrain (cliffs, ridges etc.) I now land and run up them instead of trying to fly over them

[sleek sierra]

I just don't experience that myself though. Sure it can take an entire stamina bar to climb up to the top of the highest mountains, but once there you get a free zero stamina travel to anywhere on the map. Even from the water access spawn you can fly to south plains ocean on a single stamina bar. I feel like folks are using the energy of altitude wrong a lot of the times and that's why they struggle with it.

[onyx lichen]

@dusky surge I think Troodon shouldn't have its HP reduced to 60 since it is just at 1 hit KO range by pretty much everything, I do think that reducing it is fine but not that low

[dusky surge]

it doesn't change most of its matchups, only ones with very small animals, the rest of the time it's a one-shot either way

i want its health to be consistent with weight, much like literally every other creature

[alpine plover]

make troodons growth time shorter

[vale brook]

no

[alpine plover]

why ?

[vale brook]

its fine the way it is lol

[alpine plover]

but troodons growth time is a hour long just to get 1 shot by the whole roster basically

[lunar prism]

i'd say troodons agility justifies the one shot more than enough.

3-4 good troodon players can take down anything on a server right now

[alpine plover]

yea no

[lunar prism]

if you have pounce/ping issues then that is not a troodon related issue

[alpine plover]

did i say that no

[vale brook]

yes lol

4 troodons is enough to kill pretty much anything

[alpine plover]

no

[vale brook]

as long as they actually know what they're doing

[vale brook]

you can say no all you want, that doesnt change the fact that 4 troodon can take on pretty much the entire roster ingame rn except deino

[dusky surge]

troodon has nuts punch up ability

[vale brook]

becomes substansially easier for every troodon you add onto that 4

[vale brook]

75 damage per pounce at 3rd stage, becomes incredibly easy to get on 200-400 damage in seconds if the target is large enough

[dusky surge]

Yea, absolutely insane with the recent buffs

And the bites are multiplied in damage too

[alpine plover]

90% of the time troodon players are ass at the game and cant hit 1 thing

[vale brook]

then thats an issue with troodon players and a massive skill issue. git gud

[alpine plover]

git ?

[vale brook]

old internet meme

[alpine plover]

o

[elder steppe]

For god sake why does the alt attack of the deino take so much god d*mn stamina. I was completely drained at around 6-8 (don't even know if it was even 6, im ballparking) attacks as a baby. ffs, might as well be a useless attack if it leaves you defenseless so fast.

Im angry ranting, im so mad.

[keen plover]

tbf dying to troodon is also a skill issue so

[dusky surge]

well, you don't need stam to use it

[leaden remnant]

you can be outta stam n use it

[pure apex]

Troodon can easily hunt bigger prey like dibble, stego or even carno if there isnt freaking dsync which teleports you back to where you jumped. Even 2 troos are enough for dibble

[cosmic pelican]

Too bad they cant benefit from anything bigger than a cera since they cant take the organs out

[dusky surge]

<@&933486433342222376> a free gift, just for us

its in #balance-feedback and #phase-three-requests too, how thoughtful

[sleek sierra]

#balance-feedback message Pachys doing the lords work for all our benefit!

[elder steppe]

Are you shitting me, i didn’t know that

[leaden remnant]

rip

[regal tulip]

does alt attacking when out of stam deal less damage? or does only the wounded effect lower it?

[leaden remnant]

not at all

only wounded effect does

[dusky surge]

#balance-feedback message

carnotaurus having good NV or quiet footsteps is so unfitting lol

also, dilo having good agility? have you played it lol

[regal tulip]

like minus the good stamina isnt that basically what carno is right now?

[dusky surge]

effectively, yes

the "low tankiness for size" also just isn't a thing

your size is your tankiness

[regal tulip]

i mean tbf it looks bigger than it is cuz of its long legs

[dusky surge]

im sick of the ambush hunter stuff for carno too

it's literally meant to be a carnivorous bullet train

[regal tulip]

it should be galli in big and angry imo

[dusky surge]

pretty much, yes

if you're small, and in plains, uh oh

Also, "Because of this I would say that carno should be the mid sized ambush hunter"

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/568284971337252866/1258740629068845096/caption.gif?ex=66892510&is=6687d390&hm=d833e831ab731ac8559ada0c56af6e1356ebe832f02db8b15a39ac410e99c549&

That seat was taken years ago lol

Why can't we have legacy carno? Stamina goliath with exceptional high speed that rules the plains, but has poor agility, costly regeneration time and low ambush potential

[eternal oak]

I main dilo currently…

[dusky surge]

okay, my point still stands, dilo has poor agility, and carno being THE "mid sized ambush hunter" will never happen, given that allo is that already

[eternal oak]

Well allo isn’t the ambush hunter, he’s the all rounder, which does include ambushing but he’s not the best at it

Carno will always be good at ambushing cause of his speed

So I decided to emphasize that

[dusky surge]

except you made him a good pursuit/endurance hunter

if you wanted him to be ambush, nerf his stam. Doesn't need it.

[golden coral]

Only if it's also combined with a very quick and powerful attack

[eternal oak]

I was going to explain the stam thing in the initial suggestion but… ran out of space…

[golden coral]

Currently charge is both good and bad, good for raw damage, but an utter failure as a knockdown tool

[eternal oak]

It also fails if you intend to keep your stamina

[dusky surge]

but it perfectly befits the ambush hunter!!!

because it does high damage, but costs a lot of stamina and has a long cooldown

look how good that very ambush-focused move has made carno

pretty much everything about current carno charge is ambush focused

[eternal oak]

It should cost stamina, not as much but it should

And the cooldown makes sense it’s just janky

[dusky surge]

high damage, relies on not being seen to get max value, high stamina cost and lengthy cooldown

and yet, that charge is one of the worst moves in the game to use

because, as it turns out, nerfing carno to force it into ambush roles makes it unfun

when i pick a literal CARNIVORE BULL, I expect to use my speed to rush down my prey, not wait and hide in a bush

[eternal oak]

Carno was a fun ambush hunter in earlier evrima

A very fun ambush hunter

[dusky surge]

which update was it an ambush hunter

[eternal oak]

3

[dusky surge]

it worked fine as pursuit in that update, and often would pursue

ambush was a suggestion at best

[eternal oak]

Well yeah, ambushing is a suggestion for all creatures, if you can catch prey off guard you gain an advantage

Carno is really good at this because again, speed

[keen plover]

Carno will always be an ambusher though. Like any carnivore

[dusky surge]

okay, i stand by carno being built to do that hurts its design more than anything

[vale brook]

allo is the midsize ambush hunter

[golden coral]

Need to stop confusing trying to get the jump on something with actual ambush, as well as if it's well designed for it or not at that

[eternal oak]

And cause of his lack of agility ambushing gives him a higher chance of hitting prey

[keen plover]

I mean Carno's ability is an ambush tool tbf

[dusky surge]

could be more than that

[golden coral]

It's really not though

[eternal oak]

It should be

[dusky surge]

it is

[golden coral]

You require a run up, that immediately makes it really bad at it

[dusky surge]

currently, the charge is the most "ambush" it has ever been

[eternal oak]

It was a much better ambush tool in update 3

[dusky surge]

it was a much better tool in general in update 3

now its exclusively ambush

[eternal oak]

Fair enough

[dusky surge]

and it sucks, god forbid

[golden coral]

Only because of the extreme accel

It's the "can launch charge from point blank due to accel" that makes it good at ambushing

[eternal oak]

One thing it’s lacking to be the ambush tool is the increased speed that I would want for it

[dusky surge]

no, because it literally checks every box of ambush

very costly move that sucks the moment you're seen, so the only way to execute it is to hope to god you aren't seen

[eternal oak]

Not to mention all the other little quirks of the charge

[dusky surge]

the increased speed would make it a better pursuit tool lol

because that speed boost would allow you to catch up with fleeing prey

[eternal oak]

True, but it would also make it a better ambush tool

A multi purpose tool ain’t all that bad

[golden coral]

Doesn't really have to be costly, but otherwise yes, but that's what the accel alllows for. If you didn't have that, it wouldn't work out

[dusky surge]

make carno the carnivore equivilent of galli imho

hell, make its charge effectively galli broadcast

make its charge LOUD as hell

then, make its charge faster and less damaging, with actual knockdowns, and holy hell, that's a cool animal

[eternal oak]

Carno agility stops it from being carni galli

[dusky surge]

they both have godawful agility

[keen plover]

Carno makes galli look agile tbf

[eternal oak]

I’ve dodged plenty as galli so idk what you’re yappin about

[keen plover]

He means make carno as loud as galli is lol

[eternal oak]

His calls are already pretty loud

[dusky surge]

yea, i mean make its charge give off a massive threatening call and increase its speed

not a single low grunt

[eternal oak]

I mean, a plains hunter pursuit thingy would work well for carno, I’m just more in favor of ambush carno

[dusky surge]

if its meant to be THE plains hunter, ambush is the worst option

because its the place with the least amount of available cover

also, a runner animal should be allowed to run without losing every hunting opportunity

im not picking the fastest carni in the game for bushsim

[eternal oak]

I see no reason why it shouldn’t be both

[dusky surge]

because then it's not ambush

if you want it to be ambush, it has to actually be ambush

[keen plover]

I think it should be tbh

[eternal oak]

You don’t need to ambush for each fight

[keen plover]

Ram should flip things near instantly. Well things 1t and under

[dusky surge]

so it's a generalist that can both ambush or not

so it's even MORE like allosaurus than I thought lol

it flatout is smaller, worse allo lol

[keen plover]

not really?

Allo is never going to keep up with small stuff?

[dusky surge]

exactly. that's why it's the ambusher

[keen plover]

I don't see an issue with carnos charge flipping stuff near instantly though if they're small

[dusky surge]

carno can be the pursuit hunter, because we lose a ton of those the moment we enter midtier

[eternal oak]

Kinda, allosaurus is obviously more powerful and would probably be hunting much more bulky things

Carno would be handling things mostly it’s size and mostly stuff that’s lankier and more

[dusky surge]

i dont either, that's fine. I'd just make it loud as hell and incapable of tapramming

[dusky surge]

carno would ideally be punching down most of the time, and avoiding things its size or larger

[eternal oak]

Wouldn’t most things?

[dusky surge]

no?

[eternal oak]

If it goes down in a single bite it’s a better option than the big ass dinosaur with deadly weapons as bodyparts

Every predator ever, would rather hunt a little creature than some big ass creature with giant spike on its tail or head, or body, or well… anywhere… herbivorous dinosaurs like having giant spikes places…

Of course if you have more buddies then you might consider it as a an option

[keen plover]

What do you want ambusher carno hunting though?

I'm a little lost now

[eternal oak]

Same sized

[keen plover]

So teno and cera?

[eternal oak]

Ye, and punching up to maybe Maia depending on how big they make it, there’s also plenty of sub adults roaming around that are roughly same size as carno

[dusky surge]

so basically you want the exact opposite of what dondi wants lmao

[keen plover]

Even then, doesn't carno already hunt teno and cera??

[dusky surge]

those are some of its best hunting options lol

[eternal oak]

Teno, yes… cera isn’t on its diet for some reason so I’m not sure if it’s supposed to be hunting it

[dusky surge]

it's not supposed to be hunting cera

i honestly dont know why teno is there either besides lack of other choices

[keen plover]

I mean tbf Carno can hunt teno very well. Especially in pairs

[eternal oak]

Carno should be hunting teno

[dusky surge]

in pairs, sure

solo? nah

[alpine plover]

disagree here tbh

[eternal oak]

A solo carno should be able to take a teno

[dusky surge]

nah

[eternal oak]

Why not

[keen plover]

I mean if you're a good carno then you can hunt 99% of the teno playerbase

[alpine plover]

Carno shouldn’t be hunting teno, but it can if it needs so.

[keen plover]

I still hunt herds of them solo lol

[dusky surge]

because it's a "small game bullet train" dinosaurs

[eternal oak]

Small game hunter is like I’ve said multiple times, something that should be dropped

[vale brook]

it wont be lol

[dusky surge]

not gonna happen (nor should it be)

[eternal oak]

It should be, but yeah the devs are incredibly stubborn

[alpine plover]

Yeah

[dusky surge]

small game hunter befits carno well, and grants it a cool niche imho

[alpine plover]

Dondi has said he wants to rework carno to actually be a small game hunter

[eternal oak]

They’ve been trying that for a while, it ain’t working

[dusky surge]

no they haven't lol

if anything, the most recent changes pushed it further to mid-sized hunting

[keen plover]

Why do you want carno hunting same size when there's only 2 viable options?

[eternal oak]

The whole “small game hunter carno” has been around for millennia

[dusky surge]

and it's yet to work, because it's always been built to nuke things and not actually chase them

so it just nukes tenonto because it CAN

[eternal oak]

The roster is expanding, and sub adults exists

[dusky surge]

juvis exist

[eternal oak]

What about juvies

[dusky surge]

small (game)

[eternal oak]

Uh huh

I don’t get your point

[dusky surge]

how

[vale brook]

[keen plover]

There's like only 3 other animals in carnos size range though. Bary, mega and kentro?

[dusky surge]

i dont think i can make the point more transparent

[dusky surge]

and magy, but we know carno can't eat that

so that's not happening

[eternal oak]

Again younger Individuals of bigger species fit the size range

[regal tulip]

i mean when the roster gets bigger teno will be small game i think

[dusky surge]

younger individuals of bigger species also fit the size range of "small game"

[dusky surge]

comparatively to carno? It's still the same size

"small game" is in context of the animal doing the "small game hunting"

[keen plover]

Carno should be stomping them anyways. Current carno or not

[eternal oak]

I still don’t get what the point is here, I think you’re trying to say that there’s enough small game which I don’t deny… so…

[regal tulip]

carno stomach should be smaller or hunger drain slower to be good at what it is supposed to

i dont think it should have to kill half an omni pack or a whole dryo family to get a full stomach

[eternal oak]

Most things shouldn’t… that would be excessive

[white dagger]

small game hunter fans when they realize there is no small game

[dusky surge]

except for all the small game

[white dagger]

uh huh

whens the last time you saw a dryo

[dusky surge]

is that the only small game animal?

[white dagger]

or a hypsi

[dusky surge]

i didnt know it was exclusively those two

[rotund wren]

you know pachy is small game right

[white dagger]

hell galli isn't even that common any more

[dusky surge]

or omni

[white dagger]

nobody plays that either

[white dagger]

you know how busted omni is right

[dusky surge]

its still small game

[rotund wren]

please don’t say “nobody plays omni”

[white dagger]

I won't

[rotund wren]

I see a Pachy every time I’m on

[white dagger]

really?

[rotund wren]

yeah

[white dagger]

I never see them

[rotund wren]

saw 3 at east plains yesterday

[white dagger]

bwuh?

I ain't seen a player pachy in months

[rotund wren]

the very slight grapple nerf is nice 😍

has made us pachy players come out of the woodwork

[white dagger]

hm, tbf I haven't played since grapple got added

[dusky surge]

if they actually buffed pachy some more, we'd def see it again, it's def fallen behind

[rotund wren]

yeah

and also 20% fracture resistance mutation is crazy

[dusky surge]

lots of mutations counter SPECIFICALLY pachy

[rotund wren]

I mean they counter specifically fracture

which won’t be a pachy exclusive feature

but yeah it stinks 😔

In any case, basically every creature hunts stuff smaller than it, carno being a small game hunter isn’t much of a specific niche imo

[thorn pecan]

@distant torrent #balance-feedback message
Carnos being medium theropods is very different to apexes that weigh much much more. Deinos are apexes and even they struggle to maintain their S diet despite being an incredibly popular species. The fear of losing an apex decreases the chance of fighting to begin with. Additionally until more apexes are added and it’s more diverse they need to be cannibals.

Just what I think, I don’t think either way it’d be too bad, but your speculation is misguided

[distant torrent]

Deino struggles because the map is bigger and the main hotspot is difficult to easily get to. Because of that, less people end up playing deino. Back on Spiro, everyone and their mom played Deino and it was so incredibly easy to get s because there was an endless supply of other deinos of all sizes you can eat. Apexes won’t have that issue because they are not limited to water and travel like deino and can easily travel to hotspots

Everyone and their mom will be trying to grow the strongest creature (apexes), so hotspots will be turned into apex battle royales if they can get diet from each other. Legacy also shows people are willing to kill their long growth apexes for a fun bloodbath

so yea I don’t think cannibalism will be needed lol

[uncut trellis]

Wait carno doesn’t have ram stun? As in it cannot stun other Dino’s or it can’t get stunned of ramming a Dino too big? Something else? Been a while since I played Carno

[vale brook]

@hushed ibex i agree with buffing its nv, but i dont think it should have the best nv. that should def go to troodon #balance-feedback message

((cause troodon is meant to be the night terror, not dilo.))

[hushed ibex]

Really I thought they were both branded as such

But in the case of who's more deserving of the title, with dilo's vision obstruction and having the venom strength drastically amplified at night

[leaden remnant]

uh yes it does

it can still knock things down

[uncut trellis]

Yea then idk what carno doesn’t have that people are advocating to return

[hasty coyote]

Well yes but actually no. You have to ram for like 5 seconds straight to be able to stun/knockdown targets. By that time they have seen you and dodge while you burnt about 1/3rd of your stam.

[uncut trellis]

Ok I gotcha, I was aware of this change, not really a fan of it. Teno already had a counter with its tail slam, Diablo could with its spar block, Kentro could by holding its tail down rigidly, and so on

[leaden remnant]

yep no idea

[coarse blaze]

Considering AFK growing has always been a thing, I assure you most people won't mind throwing their apex around when they can easily just tab out and grow a new one. Cannibalism will just be easier food; why hunt multiple smaller creatures and possibly starve when I can just kill one large creature and completely sustain myself?

Legacy was full of PVP hungry rexes (and apexes in general) and back then they took 6 hours to grow and I highly doubt Evrima's will be any different.

6.5 hours for a giga and a lot of people still were more than willing to throw it away for a single apex v apex fight.

On top of it all I'm more than positive there will be a growing mass of players who will hate rex like any other apex, grow them and use them soley just to kill other rexes. If they're cannibals players like that will flourish 100% off of just killing any and all rexes be it big or small.

[rigid tulip]

There is genuinely no way

I have used what seems like half my entire stamina bar in a charge over like 5 different attempts and never got a stun

[leaden remnant]

wat

try ramming for like 7 seconds

[rigid tulip]

Ive never once got a stun in the past 2 months

Ig its because i dont ever charge more than nearly half my stam bar cause thats suicide

If thats the case then stun might as well not exist. No smart player who values life would find many situations to use it

[leaden remnant]

uh they made this ig to stop people from using the ram

also i sometimes instaram raptors and pachies when im playing solo

ton of damage if it's a headshot

[regal tulip]

@polar tree try alt biting, i feel the hitbox for alt bites is everything infront of you from the ground up, way easier to hit troodons etc

[leaden remnant]

#balance-feedback message dont think it's gonna happen

as much as i agree that dryo for example is defenseless, the solution is adding a mechanic that allows it to avoid raptors safely

for example, burrowing, climbing, being in water like beipis already do, etc

because, well:

[distant torrent]

the only issue with this is that game balance should always be more important than realism. many mutations throw out realism, so I don’t think a little mutation exclusive to small playables will hurt

gored beyond belief by another omni and you’re bleeding out? you magically don’t die from blood loss even at 0% blood as long as you’re sitting because of a mutation

a target is bleeding? you apparently magically have a stronger bite force against it because of a mutation

torn to shreds with your intestines hanging out and have low health? you magically mend all wounds simply by inhaling food because of a mutation

I get what Kissen is saying, but game balance needs to come first if people are going to want to be enticed to play smaller playables lol

[leaden remnant]

game balance should always bemore important than realism, i agree

and pin isn't unbalanced

[distant torrent]

it is and has been ever since omni got more stam for Gateway and the delicate stam balancing of Spiro was thrown out

[leaden remnant]

it isn't

it simply isn't

a mistake or awful luck is what gets u pinned

99% of the time you could've avoided it one way or another

the remaining 1% is when a raptor literally spawns on you

what causes people to not play small playables isn't the chance of being pinned, it's how stupidly long it takes to grow one for the little reward it gives you

it requires the same maintenance as a high tier dino, sharing practically all of the bad parts as the others

not to mention the lack of cool abilities

[slim dragon]

Pin is busted
It's effectively a oneshot on anything that is the same size or you, or smaller, or galli

Only herrera can achieve anything close to that, and it needs careful planning and precise aiming

[leaden remnant]

a deino can lunge, a raptor can pounce/pin, a pachy can break your bones, but wth can a dryo do

[leaden remnant]

pin is not busted

[distant torrent]

a lot of things contribute into people not wanting to play smaller playables. I doubt grow times will be reduced because I’m pretty sure the intention is that you value your life more and want to take less risks

[distant torrent]

absolutely

[leaden remnant]

if pin is busted, herrera jump is in awful need of major tweaks

[slim dragon]

Pounce is the most powerful ability in the game, bar none

[leaden remnant]

no it is not

not even close

might as well be one of the least powerful ones (talking about pounce, not pin)

[slim dragon]

Especially now that you can pin things larger than yourself with grapple
Thankfully you now need at least 2 omnis to do it

[leaden remnant]

cause if you compare it to lunge/herrera jump/pachy bonk and etcetera, man

man

[slim dragon]

How is it weaker than any of these abilities ?

[distant torrent]

sucks to suck if you get spotted by two omnis

all your growth gone

[leaden remnant]

doesnt render you invalid/insta kill in a milisecond

[slim dragon]

It does
Not in a milisecond, but it does
And the time spent looking at your dino helplessly wiggling around doesn't really make a difference

[leaden remnant]

a herrera 1 shotting a raptor is fine, however a raptor pinning something smaller down isn't fine. a pachy pulling a no u on something almost 4 times its size, making it unable to do anything is fine, however a raptor pinning something smaller down isn't fine. a carno 1 shotting a raptor is fine, however a raptor pinning something smaller down isn't fine. a cera 1 shotting a raptor is fine, however a raptor pinning something smaller down isn't fine

pin isn't busted, everyone knows that

y'all hate being pinned and so do i

the solution isn't removing it or anything of the sort, it's don't get pinned

[slim dragon]

You also need to take into account the context of how these abilities are used, and the size of playables

[leaden remnant]

i completely agree with this

a ram is used as a starter of a chase/fight, great damage, however big stamina cost

a carno is exactly 4 times the size of a raptor, and it hunts raptors for a living

so that's reasonable

however i could personally go around begging for counterplay, or i could do what every other single person does: don't get rammed

if i go around begging for ram to be nerfed or to add some sort of dash/smth weird for everything, i will be scolded

i will be told "don't get rammed bruh it's not that difficult"

i will say the same thing in regards to this, don't get pinned

[slim dragon]

The key difference is, carno can't oneshot another carno with a ram

[distant torrent]

iirc ram isn’t a one shot unless it’s a ram to the head. if you get body rammed, you still have a decent chance of getting away because you’re not completely stopped from giving any input until death

[leaden remnant]

do you prefer raptors being unable to pin eachother?

[leaden remnant]

this is correct

[leaden remnant]

if so, say goodbye to the free 2 kills when raptors pin each other mid-fight

[slim dragon]

I'd prefer if pin wasn't such a one-sided and uninteractive ability
There's already too much situations in that game where you just watch and do nothing as your dino dies slowly

[leaden remnant]

okay that i can understand

however the thing is, what led to you being pinned/lunged/rammed/whatever?

it's clear that the devs prefer this to be that way, so the best you can do is learn from your mistakes and avoid that situation from happening ever again

for example few months ago i decided to take on a deino as a cera

i got grabbed and drowned

stupidest thing ive ever done as a cera

never done that again

never got drowned again as a cera

[slim dragon]

Pounce is the hardest ability to avoid among all these abilities
Your best chance is to hope lag is on your side

[leaden remnant]

actually not really

theres an easy way to not get pinned down, use terrain

[distant torrent]

• Audio not allowing footsteps to be heard until they’re right on you
• Many hills and bushes and trees making ambushing so incredibly easy
• the inability to see farther to the side like most should be able to due to eye positioning

[leaden remnant]

go to a slope

[slim dragon]

That's an exploit imo, not a proper counter

[leaden remnant]

and if the raptor even tries to pin you down, he'll die or break his leg

[leaden remnant]

it is a proper counter

cause then, safespots would be an exploit as well

[leaden remnant]

then that's a bug thing, not a pin thing

[slim dragon]

A jump being countered by a ledge is absolutely an exploit

[leaden remnant]

and a map thing as well

[leaden remnant]

an exploit is someone abusing an unfair situation

or abusing a broken thing to gain absurd advantages

if raptors can still pounce themselves off a cliff, it's intended, use it to avoid it

literally your best bet is using your game knowledge against the raptors

that's what i personally do when playing as a small tier/juvie, it's funny when a raptor pounces himself off a cliff

[slim dragon]

Going near water to avoid dilo hallucinations is an exploit because it's not intended
So is raptors breaking their legs or being unable to pounce at all when on a slope

[leaden remnant]

raptors breaking their legs after falling off 20m is not an exploit

that is intended

[slim dragon]

Who said 20m ?

[leaden remnant]

dilo hallucinations can't be compared to raptor pounce, they're too different

[leaden remnant]

you said breaking their legs

specific heights are irrelevant

what matters is what happens to the raptor after touching the ground

if he dies, skill issue. if he breaks his legs, skill issue. if he takes damage, skill issue. and if he doesn't get anything, skill issue for missing

it's a simple dodge, not an exploit

otherwise, me moving out of the way when a carno rams me is an exploit as well

[alpine plover]

The hill thing is most certainly an exploit

[leaden remnant]

it is not an exploit

it doesn't even fit in the definition of exploit

go ahead, check what exploiting means

you'll see how wrong it is

[alpine plover]

If it’s not an exploit, what is it then?

[leaden remnant]

"the act of taking advantage of something or someone, specifically in an unfair manner, to get an unfair advantage of another for one's own benefit"

[leaden remnant]

someone being smart...?

[alpine plover]

So you consider it a tactic, correct?

[leaden remnant]

wooooo i moved out of the way the raptor died to fall damage cause he missed the pounce

[leaden remnant]

is this an interrogation or something

it is obviously a tactic

in fact one of the if not the most effective one

[slim dragon]

woo I'm 15 degrees above the raptor so if it tries to pounce it throws itself into the ground instead of on me
I'm so smart

[leaden remnant]

why did the raptor even pounce then 💀

horrendous skill issue mr raptor

[slim dragon]

Becuase the fact it cannot is obviously a bug

[leaden remnant]

wdym it cant

you just said it pounced and broke his legs or died

you mean it cant actually latch on something clearly out of the way? that's not a bug

that's how reality works

[slim dragon]

no

[leaden remnant]

if it ain't, how bout we make it so raptors can randomly pounce and latch on the closest target

[leaden remnant]

then what exactly is it?

if the raptor doesn't touch you, he doesn't get to latch on you

if you're clearly above him and he still tries and misses, that's not a bug

that's the game actually working

[alpine plover]

Pin is utterly busted, so cool watching my dilo (who’s heavier then a omni) get pinned to the ground squirming untill my death

[leaden remnant]

it is not busted

if your dilo is heavier than the raptor, it can't pin you

[alpine plover]

2 omnis pinning a carno?

[leaden remnant]

ehhhhhhh

if it has below 5% stamina, maybe

[alpine plover]

and eventually one of them lets go and they bite you while the other is still pinning

[leaden remnant]

huh

if that's possible that's dumb 💀

[alpine plover]

Well that happened today, got pinned by 2 omnis one let go, and I was still getting pinned while the other was biting my head.

[leaden remnant]

wtf

report that bug

that's bs

[golden coral]

You can't really argue using terrain is an exploit, it's just being smart (and in far too many cases, the only viable option at that as a counter). As for omni pin/pounce being easy, well we had flank only, but people couldn't handle that, so rear pounce got added back for no good reason.

[west plank]

Yes, this unfortunately happens. Version 0.15 seriously disrupted the game balance

[leaden remnant]

it got added back cause hitboxes were too messy with how it worked and also for pounce to pin iirc?

[slim dragon]

When terrain in question is a slight ledge that prevents the opponent from jumping because the pounce movement force isn't actually a jump, yes it's an exploit

[golden coral]

The hitboxes could have been finetuned, ought to have tried that first at the very least. And maybe for the pounce to pin, but they could also just adjust thresholds, or simply accept that omni does not need to be this epic pounce fantasy (not very likely, I know)

[leaden remnant]

i mean what else is there

what else could you make a raptor be, yknow

[leaden remnant]

they did try to help with it but ig it was too much

[eager saddle]

make bucking great again

👍

[leaden remnant]

make stam great again to make bucking great again

[golden coral]

Maybe it's intended. Or maybe I just have a far stricter definition of what an exploit actually is, but I would not consider something you can do in the game an exploit unless it's actuallly working in a way that isn't intended. And if pounce isn't a jump, then you're not jumping with it, so then a ledge would be in the way.

[golden coral]

Did they actually adjust the angles at any time, I don't recall if they tried that or not.

[golden coral]

You're never getting the old stam back xD

[leaden remnant]

one day

[leaden remnant]

yus

[golden coral]

Recall what patch that might have been?

[leaden remnant]

not particularly

[slim dragon]

That's the thing
Pounce is a jump

[golden coral]

Do you have any vid example of how this ledge thing works, maybe I'm imagining it differently. But you can also aim the pounce up/down, so wouldn't that work then?

[slim dragon]

I don't have a video
Being unable to pounce up ledges is a known thing however, and idk if it can be circumvented by aiming up or down

[golden coral]

Well, last I checked, if you aim down you basically just pounce into the ground, so upwards would give you a higher/longer pounce. At least it makes sense I think.

[steep echo]

They could make pounce more telegraphed? A hold down and release ability with spacebar being the trigger

Very short warmup time, but if we're speaking about a dryo then it'll be a visual cue to use your dodges

[leaden remnant]

there used to be a windup animation

they removed it and made it tap right click to activate

[dusky surge]

bucking is its own problem. Changing the stam doesn't change the fact bucking sucks, and I prefer Gateway's endurance stamina over Spiro's burst stamina

[leaden remnant]

changing stam would make bucking work better, yes

you could force a raptor off and that'd be no issue cause of fast regen

also i like endurance stamina as well but i honestly think it just doesn't fit

[dusky surge]

how

burst stamina just makes less sense for an animal survival game

[leaden remnant]

you've seen it in my 1000 feedbacks

[dusky surge]

most creatures do not have fast stamina regeneration

humans are a rare exception

[leaden remnant]

creatures don't die to starvation in an hour

[dusky surge]

funnily, this is applicable in The Isle too, as humans have a rapidfire regen (but they also have 18 minutes of stam lol)

[leaden remnant]

not to mention that certain abilities like bucking work better if you can force the raptor off quickly but doesn't force the raptor to sit for 2 mins

[dusky surge]

true. most creatures also don't go from "completely fine" to "starving" in a second

often there's hunger pains, weakness to hunger, a loss of energy, so on

[leaden remnant]

ofc, they also take days and days

[dusky surge]

as long as an animal in The Isle has a couple of grams of food, it's fine

[leaden remnant]

yup

i know burst stam isn't realistic or doesn't make any sense, and i agree, i just believe that it fits more

[dusky surge]

it should force the raptor to retreat, Spiro stamina still had bucking be useless, but for the opposite reason

[leaden remnant]

that would be too cheap

bucking in spiro was pretty good

[dusky surge]

before, bucking would reduce a raptor's stam, and all it'd do was walk away to space you out and regen stam

Also, your "faster regen" benefits the raptor, not the bucker

[leaden remnant]

forced to down to relax for a bit yknow

[dusky surge]

Because low blood reduces stam regen by a LOT, meaning all that raptors have to do is tank through the first few bucks, then that creature is not regenning jack-squat, it's screwed

Meanwhile, the raptor can use its stam to remain at a good distance and regenning stamina, while forcing creatures who chase it to lose blood even more rapidly

[leaden remnant]

if it takes 2-3 seconds to get you off, there's not really any tanking possible

[dusky surge]

Current stam regen actually enforces more group play (if bucking were good). You buck off a raptor and it leaves you alone because it's low on stam

[leaden remnant]

if bucking by itself already wins you a fight, that's too cheap

[dusky surge]

Then, while its recovering, its buddies continue

[leaden remnant]

to win you gotta fight not hold e

[dusky surge]

Hold E ain't killing the raptors

[leaden remnant]

if it disables them due to low stam, you can run with almost full stam 🤷‍♂️

[dusky surge]

I'm not saying bucking should autowin, but it should do more to concern a raptor while not immediately draining the prey

[leaden remnant]

i would agree with that if a few tweaks were made here and there

[dusky surge]

which is what's happening

[leaden remnant]

cause while i don't feel like bucking is useful rn, i also don't feel like stam regen is good enough to make bucking as good as it was

so it sucks for the prey

[dusky surge]

raptor has been well compensated with grapple

[leaden remnant]

maybe it has, maybe

[dusky surge]

and troodon doesn't really care about bucking like, at all

[leaden remnant]

fr

but there's also another thing

stam rn is realistic besides having thresholds, but the way we fight is not realistic at all

so it would warrant having an unrealistic stamina to fit better

the fighting concern, well, if they really want people to stop making this game a deathmatch game, add aftermath, yknow

it's not like i have any ideas right now but it would completely force people to stop fighting competitively

[dusky surge]

isnt that the worst way to do things lol

"completely force people to stop fighting"

[leaden remnant]

comopetitively

cause that's what they've been trying to do for all this time and haven't succeeded

removed the heart, nerfed stam to the worm realm, etc

and sure, i agree it's the worst way to do things, but i prefer having a fitting stam and a good reason to take fights more carefully than have a nerfed stam and still seeing nobody taking fights carefully

cause it means it failed at doing its only job

[dusky surge]

people took fights carefully before? what game have you been playing

spiro centre was the goddamn rumbledome

if you moved, you got ran at

[leaden remnant]

that's not what i said

[dusky surge]

i watched 12 deinos sprint into a stego and all die

[leaden remnant]

i said the opposite, nobody has taken fights carefully

and nobody takes them carefully rn

so im agreeing with you, deathmatch moment

adding other interesting things to do and certain things that make you think "hold on is it worth it taking this fight?" would definetely help more than just nerfing stam and said "solved" when it's clearly not

the issue is still there, hasn't been fixed yet, and the "solution" never did anything but cause too many issues

[dusky surge]

its honestly something that can't be fixed until something like elders

because there is no endgoal that you're losing for just taking a fight

if anything, the current endgoal for this game IS fighting

you can nest, sure, but that's not an actual ENDING

[leaden remnant]

you're probably right

[dusky surge]

you can nest like, 50 times, but you die once

so inevitably, it boils down to "I wanna kick some dude's ass because that's the ultimate sense of finality and stakes in this game"

[leaden remnant]

yeah pretty much sums up the isle experience

hell, even pteras go ahead and peck stegos

seen it far too many times as a ptera

it doesn't make sense, but they just want something fun to do

then they die and complain while i'm dying right there saying "why did you even try man 😭"

[dusky surge]

mutations... help. A nested creature you generally take a little more care of, ESPECIALLY if it has good inherits, because getting something like that again is a little bit of a struggle

[leaden remnant]

definetely

[dusky surge]

it's the closest we have to an actual reason for self-preservation

the issue i see with THAT, however, is combat muts being a little devil

[leaden remnant]

itself is a reason to preserve yourself

[dusky surge]

and whispering for you to try out that big bad attack bonus on the other guy

[leaden remnant]

lmao

the voices

[dusky surge]

adding more stuff like lineages with benefits like inherits, elders, or reincarnation, will inevitably force people to consider "This is a special creature, I may lose a LOT of value for taking this stupid fight, I probably won't do that"

[leaden remnant]

yeah

we tend to protect the "juiced up" raptors in packs and for a pretty good reason

hell, even take a stego swing if it means that person survives

[dusky surge]

the issue is not punishing the players for fighting, it's instead getting them to care about their creature, and yes, some players do have RP reasons to like their creatures, but humans are inherently goal-oriented, you need to be thinking "what do I lose" rather than "how will I be punished"

punishment is unfun, but giving the agency of free choice is far more engaging and fun

[leaden remnant]

i agree with that

give em good reasons to not go around being maniacs killing everything

instead, pick a fight that you can win, take it slow, carefully yknow, and then just enjoy the meal, sit there, relax, etc

[dusky surge]

yea. An alternate goal would do wonders

[leaden remnant]

yup

would be cool to have that

[dusky surge]

like, it's already proven to work because people genuinely do care about their nested creature

[leaden remnant]

yeah

hopefully we'd get something like that with elders

end goal not being kill as many things as you possibly can but something else

[hasty coyote]

@analog mirage iirc, it doesnt take half the damage and turns it into stamina, it makes it when you take damage you gain stamina. Say an attack deals 100 damage, you don't take 50 dmg and convert 50 damage into stam. You take 100 damage and gain 50 stam

otherwise I agree entirely with your points.

[analog mirage]

I’ve heard conflicting sayings but if that’s how it works then I guess it’s not too bad

But from my experience I would presumably take little damage and gain stamina

[dusky surge]

it's still bad, I personally do think that "damage reduction that costs stamina" is by far the most interesting way to do it, because it doesn't reward endurance fighting at all

although, it's very biased towards less stam-dependent dinos, so it could still form a meta

[hasty coyote]

cera always stays winning

[dusky surge]

basically, that

cera currently is already massively benefitting from the mutations, it's like it is specifically designed to take advantage of the OP ones

[hasty coyote]

Its this game's equivalent of a stat-checker. It runs at you and bites you until you die, its only special gimmick is vomit which doesnt help much mid-combat. Thus giving it more stats with these mutations just makes it cross over the edge of balance.

[dusky surge]

true, it's a very... basic dinosaur, combat-wise

survival mechanics, it's actually quite versatile and interesting, but it's pretty much the stock standard at fighting

i still think vomit has too much use as a combat tool, personally

[hasty coyote]

which aint a bad thing, til you give it ways to increase its speed and regen hp insanely fast.

[hasty coyote]

the vomit stun every like 30 seconds and increased bleed due to low stats is decent, but I think its fine since its a decent combat tool but not insanely busted. The real issue is that the bile is not weight based at all, so it takes as many bites to make a fresh spawn omni vomit as a adult cera as it takes to make a stego vomit as a freshspawn cera. And I can tell you from playing diablo and being forced to fight ceras, healing the vomit and fixing your diets is not fun.

[dusky surge]

I personally just dislike the fact that it's used as a stun at all. Feels more like a weapon than a deterrant, especially given how it interacts with slower creatures

Diablo would def be less threatened by cerato if stun vomit didn't exist

[hasty coyote]

again, make it not as effective on larger creatures, and bam, its much less effective as a combat tool.

[hasty coyote]

From playing diablo and cera, its not the stun that matters. Its really about if the diablo can guard its back and land the knockdowns. If it can't, the ceras can whittle it down with charged bites. If they can, then the ceras get mauled and have to bail or die.

[dusky surge]

Honestly, I'm a little confused at how they did dibble's stuns. It seems to just... Not stun if standing still or trotting, meaning it kinda has to sprint in order to knockdown, which I don't understand why thats a thing

[analog mirage]

No just rework how bacteria works

[analog mirage]

You had an idea a bit ago about the more you are bit the more you’ll puke over time is good

[hasty coyote]

yeah its made the opposite way it should be balanced imo. Defensive moves should have the knockdowns, not aggressive moves.

[hasty coyote]

Fundamentally, I think its fine if they just make it affected by weight and make the bile heal slower. Messes with your diets, so you don't want to deal with them as much, while still being a decent combat tool to help cera get the edge without just buffing its stats more.

[analog mirage]

I personally think cera’s bacteria should work as a mix of both combat and deterrent, because ceras stats are fairly poor. I don’t think cera needs any drastic stat changes, the bacteria just needs to punish people for fighting the cera

The issue rn is that you basically just get stuns on timers which is boring and not good in the slightest

[hasty coyote]

Like, again, playing as diablo, I have fought ceras and basically ruined my diet for the next hour as I have 2 slots filled and 1 at 70% but not activated and full hunger

[hasty coyote]

The stun is on a like 30 second timer, which only really affects long drawn out fights, namely with larger prey like diablo and stegos. So if we just make it less effective on those targets, its a single stun in 70% of fights, and maybe like up to 3 max in another 25% for those who are really brave

[analog mirage]

I personally would like bacteria to be more than you vomiting. It can lead to it but it isn’t gonna just fade after you do

It would still stay on and the longer bacteria is applied to you the more “sick” your playable gets meaning you start becoming more prone to injury and possibly deal less damage due to your body not being in good shape from bacteria

So cera isn’t entirely poor in combat because the longer you fight it the worse it’ll be for you, so you can just avoid it knowing it’s not an easy fight if you don’t have a plan

Instead of what we have now where I make you vomit once, it’s annoying but you can still easily take me out

[dusky surge]

counterpoint, it absolutely sucks as a combat edge and as a comliment to cera's kit and gameplay design

• vomit animations are inconsistent. Some creatures vomit for just 1 second. Other creatures (mainly herbivores), can be locked into a vomit animation for WAY longer, up to 4-5 seconds. Not only does this go against the entire point of cerato (bullying other carnivores), it creates a stun mechanic which is wildly inconsistent to fight against
• having a stun that reduces stamina significantly AGAIN further impacts herbivores more, as they're often far more stam-dependent in their combat style. It's also unfun, and a massive "win more" moment
• being reduced to trot speed while vomiting, yet again, is inconsistent, due to the different paces creatures trot at. Another inconsistent stun mechanic which makes fighting cera all the more frustrating
• carnivores don't actually care and actually are encouraged to double down on the fight, not retreat. You can kill the cera, wait out the vomit debuffs, tear the now dead cera to shreds, then eat the organs. Voila, nutrients back. Once again, herbivores suffer more

EVERYTHING about this ability fails the fundamental purpose of cerato, and doubles down on "generic hunter therapod" over "meat-stealer bully scav"

[analog mirage]

Let cera be able to fight around a bit but also give a deterrent of “I’m getting in a really bad condition by fighting it, I should back off so I don’t risk turning into a walking vegetable”

[hasty coyote]

That works basically the same way cera's bile already affects you, just now it stacks with 0 diets.

Generally if you vomit twice, you diets run out shortly after and then start dealing with those negative effects as well as starvation and dehydration, so if you vomit ontop of getting debuffs, you're just stacking even more debuffs on cera.

[analog mirage]

The issue is that after you vomit, it was just one stun that varies in time for each playable due to vomit animation time. Theres still no incentive to back off. You are still in the same fighting condition you were in before

[analog mirage]

There’s so few times you’ll vomit twice in a fight, usually you will brute force your way through cera after a vomit

Teno, Carno and dibble can all just brute force with good damage after a vomit and cripple a cera

Pachy, dilo and Omni are all too small and nimble to brawl you, so they run away or die of raw damage before they even vomit

[hasty coyote]

I agree with the vomit animations, those should become more standardized in time. prob like 1-2 seconds max

Most carnivores are as stam dependent as herbivores since alt attacks can now be used without stam, except cera whon is immune to vomit. Plus, doesnt it jsut reduce your max stam? So if you burnt like 20% stam, the stam decrease has next to no effect. Unless again, you're having a long and drawn out fight, which is likely with something bigger, aka, the issue I agree with but have a different solution.

whatever your trot speed is, it aint faster than a ceras's sprint, so it doesnt affect much. However, if your trot is fast enough to make a difference for cera, then you're probably dying beforehand or immediately after anyway due to damage. If your trot is super slow, then you're probably big, again, big dinos issue.

The last thing I do agree with, but again, I think there should be a different solution. Most likely making cera's organs not give as much or any diet to things that can't eat rot and/or giving herbivores a way to better maintain diets like gizzard stones or something.

essentially, I agree with the root issues, but I think the issue is with vomit itself being poorly made rather than cera's bile mechanic.

[dusky surge]

nope, it can massively delete your current stam pool

i think having cerato's bacteria be a lingering status effect over a one-and-done stun would be a far superior way of doing it