balance-feedback-discussion

[dusky surge]

Oh sweet

[fiery shard]

at least it seemed that way to me. i'll check it out today

[leaden remnant]

i might've not noticed then

[hoary maple]

So, I have been testing Diabloceratops on the horde test servers and so far, about 90% of the time, I have been killed by the bigger Diabloceratops for no reason, and I was always in the growth phase. The point is, smaller Diabloceratops have zero chance to escape in any way from bigger Diabloceratops. This creates major frustration while playing the game. I understand it's okay if carnivores do this, but herbivores doing it just does not feel right. Maybe like 10% is fine, but in reality, it's not like that.
I hope something can be done about this. I hope I posted this feedback in the right channel. Im sorry if I didnt

[golden coral]

Last I tested it was 10% for the standing and 15% for the running.

[leaden remnant]

o

[leaden remnant]

no sire

this is the discussion channel go to #general-feedback or #balance-feedback

[dusky surge]

so gross

[vague patrol]

If you're basing your argument off realism, you'd be very wrong about everything you've said (just watch the casual geographic video about how bad baby animals have it in the wild and within their own herds). But yeah. . . it is annoying to be fair.

[dusky surge]

watched a video, a fg diablo was drowned by a deino in a single lunge without even using 1/2 of his total stamina and the deino sprint swam to deeper waters

i'm sure a cooldown wouldn't hurt to give those who break free a fighting chance

[leaden remnant]

if you got caught it's on u

the deino absolutely deserves the kill

[dusky surge]

i'm not saying it doesn't

but if the deino wastes a ton of stam or is in super shallow waters, and is forced to let you free, you should be able that minor luxury

[leaden remnant]

you tryna make it more difficult

[dusky surge]

no not really

[leaden remnant]

it's a cooldown so yes

[golden coral]

I don't think critters in general should have cooldowns/charges. Not sure that's a good, much less fun way of doing things

[dusky surge]

eh, it works for some creatures well, like dryo and dilo

if the cooldown is basically a special resource, I think it's cool

[golden coral]

Heh, just the ones I could see it working otherwise for, dilo having a venom meter (so should troodon), and dryo should just be allowed to dodge freely

Part of the fun of dryo is to well, dodge and be quick and agile, and you can't because charges

So, sure it can work, but I'm not sure it's the best way to do it or even fun, since in some cases charges should regenerate way faster and if so you could probably find better ways

[dusky surge]

i don't like carno or stego style cooldowns in the most part, where they have prerequisites where spamming them literally is already impossible (running start/raising the tail), AND a stam cost, making them burn two "resources" at once

they're not a resource, they're a restriction

diablo, dryo and dilo have resources

carno and stego have restrictions

the distinction very much shows how the cooldown systems should be addressed

[sudden moat]

Well I don't know I was just responding to his questions

[steep echo]

#balance-feedback message
@slender lion what if using dodge tanks their stamina instead, depending on their weight? Escape is dependant on their growth and how long the pursuit has lasted

Not necessarily a guarantee

[slender lion]

My suggestion is about fully grown dryo guaranteed an escape with the lil dodge thing they have

[steep echo]

Yeah I understood it, I just thought it could be more dynamic and numbers based

[dusky surge]

#balance-feedback message

I feel that a lot of this stuff betrays the actual flavour of pteranodon, turning it into a literal miniquetz, while the numbers feel like they're picked at complete random, and are very overtuned

[analog mirage]

The numbers aren’t perfect but are mostly as a guideline for what it could be. Making it somewhat strong and durable enough to land and fight Juvies without getting one shot

As for it being “mini Quetz” I do agree it borrows some of quetzs thematics with diving down and striking, but this is less about that and more so making Ptera somewhat of an enjoyable experience.

Quetz is also likely far harder to grow and hunt as, considering you are a literal giant plane

People say they want Ptera to just chill and eat fish, the issue with this is that it has nothing else to do, which makes it nothing but a glorified spectator mode that becomes extremely boring after a few hours

I don’t mind Ptera doing some of what Quetz can do just to a smaller degree while Quetz has full on capabilities to pick up and fly off with people

[dusky surge]

I think my main issue is the entire concept of the combat stance is really silly to me

It's super arcadey

Something PoT or BoB would have

[analog mirage]

Sure, but I’d rather take a combat stance without the ability to takeoff than buffing Ptera to be capable of hunting on the ground and then just immediately taking off

The issue is that if you make it too durable, it takes a hit, flys off and wins. If you make it more durable without the option to fly off, then it becomes a bit more tolerable

Trying to make it fun and good on the ground without directly buffing it and making it immortal

[dusky surge]

I think making it almost as fast as a troodon, almost as tanky as a troodon, do more bite damage than a troodon, and have more ground stam as a troodon is insane for it

[slim dragon]

Why does ptera, a flying fisher, have to be fighting things twice its own size on the ground ?

Why does everyone treat this game like it's mortal kombat ?

[dusky surge]

i liked the diving part, ptera just flat out should be allowed to dive in and out of water, but the combat part is just bizarre

"turn your flier into a more powerful troodon"

what

[slim dragon]

I agree with the diving part too
But the combat stance makes no sense

[dusky surge]

ptera inexplicably gains power, health and speed

it's just completely against the flavour of ptera

cerato's body buff makes more sense

[hoary maple]

Yeah I watched it and its bad, in my opinion I think its still not that bad. If I had any good solutions to this I would say them, but sadly I dont 😦

[slim dragon]

@agile ravine How do you know the other person didn't have lag ?

[dusky surge]

he said so apparently

[agile ravine]

Well it must have been the case because the outcome of hitting me must be lag

Im trying to understand why it’s not mechanics that create the lag etc instead of my fiberglass and the amazon servers they are hosting on I believe which are both top notch. Its software related and not hardware connectivity related so there’s where my questions are coming from

[slim dragon]

That's because of the way networking is handled

[agile ravine]

If a laggy player hits you you still die regardless of the fact that ping is fine and no lag happens on my side

[agile ravine]

Which makes sense because of this

But doesn’t make sense when u actually program a game imo

[slim dragon]

When a user lags, they send conflicting information to the server opposed to when someone isn't lagging
For one of them, the attack did connect, for the other, it didn't
And the server always prioritizes the "attack did connect" option

[agile ravine]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GOYdFl9obWU

Another great example

[golden coral]

@dusky surge Would like jab to go down to 4% and not a fan of the cooldown at all, much less that long. But I'll take it, at least it'd make stego somewhat decent as a defensive critter, as it should be at least. At this point, anything making the playable somewhat fun and capable is good, after all!

[dusky surge]

i think specifically a "winded" kind of vibe after that big-ol swing can work thematically

[west plank]

The current stego seems ideal to me, along with mutations. @dusky surge

[dusky surge]

do you play it

current stego is anything but ideal

[west plank]

I haven't played it but I watched it somewhere, stamina mutation helps him a lot.

[golden coral]

It could, and I get the idea, I just dislike cooldowns and I'd rather then have 15% or even 20% for the running cost than a cooldown. This would mean two swings and you'd be down under threshold, which would be a very good reason to stop chasing stuff

[golden coral]

Right, so it's a viable playable only if you take mutations

[dusky surge]

so it's not good

[golden coral]

You... don't see the issue there?

[dusky surge]

it relies on a mutation to BE good

a mutation, might i add, that absolutely should not exist

[golden coral]

Also that doesn't fix the cooldown stupidity, or even the exaggerated cost anyway. And yes, that mutation, along with eating to heal and some others are probably not going to be around, or be that powerful at the very least

[west plank]

It can still be managed without mutation, but when it mutates, it becomes very powerful.

so the mutation makes him very strong

[golden coral]

Go face a full pack of ceras, or omnis, or even tenos, in the open (so you know, you have to rely on your own ability) and see how it goes

You'll get shredded, even a full pack of carnos might be able to do it, small game hunters that they are

[dusky surge]

when ceratosaurus mutates, it becomes very powerful

for this reason, i suggest we add a cooldown to its charged bite, make it cost 10% stamina each time, reduce its damage and nerf its bacteria

you see how that doesn't work?

[west plank]

Most of the mutations will be balanced

[golden coral]

Hell, even troodon can kill stego in a full pack so

I think that should tell you all, either about how utterly bad stego is, or how overpowered troodon is. Dilos can as well, even with their bad turn, and so on. Because well, stego is far too baitable, and far too reliant on stamina

[west plank]

Dude, this doesn't follow that logic. Once stego hits, there is no need to hit it a second time.

[golden coral]

You shouldn't need a mutation to be vaguely viable/good

[dusky surge]

ceratosaurus currently is extremely OP because of the healing mutation on eating. Does this mean we should nerf the hell out of cerato, because it overuses that mutation to be EXCEPTIONALLY strong? No. Because that's bad design, and unfair for any ceratosaurus who wants to play anything but those specific mutations

[golden coral]

Doesn't matter when you can't reliably hit in the first place, that's the problem

[dusky surge]

Balancing the creature around optional mutations is a dogwater philosophy

[golden coral]

"once" doesn't matter when "once" happens 1/100 times. Same reason why "omni dies in one hit" doesn't matter, when 99/100 times, you never get hit (aside from latency/lag, which is why troodon got buffs that it didn't really need)

[west plank]

As I said, stego can maintain itself without mutation.

[golden coral]

Sure, in a very bad way. Can you survive, absolutely, is it terrible anyway, yes.

Troodon were fine before all of its buffs

You could survive... but hey, that wasn't good enough because it wasn't fun enough

[west plank]

However, the stamina cost can be reduced to around 7.5, not by half, and can be increased depending on how balanced these mutations are.

[dusky surge]

or just remove the overpowered mutations to take them out of this hypothetical equation

[golden coral]

Stop referring to mutations, that's a terrible balance method. If so, cera should have terrible health regen, and so on.

[dusky surge]

^

[golden coral]

As should any carni really, or herbi that can have that mutation

Oh and then we got the speed mutations, so there's that problem

[dusky surge]

if i need a mutation to make my animal good, i have failed to balance

[west plank]

Yes, this is possible, but first the mutations must be fixed permanently, otherwise it will be difficult to maintain the balance of the game.

[dusky surge]

sure, so don't punish stego for the mutations existing

why must stego suffer because the mutations got added

[west plank]

Especially the mutations made the ceratos incredibly strong, this should definitely be fixed. I can't imagine a cerato running faster than a pachy.

[golden coral]

So, mutations need fixing, and thus, critters should be balanced without them

[dusky surge]

exactly. But I don't suggest to nerf ceratos because their mutations are OP, because that's not fair

[west plank]

stego was very noticeable due to its new feature, if it were me, I would first reduce the rates of mutations

[dusky surge]

no?

stego was just immediately dogpiled because no one knew how to play against it (despite it being a hordetest and obviously requiring a different attack plan). Reducing the rate of mutations doesn't change the fact they're still there and they're still meta

[west plank]

diablo was too fragile against cera so they made him 3 tons stego was very strong but now they made him helpless against diablo

[golden coral]

I don't think dibble was too fragile vs cera

And that's not why they upsized it anyway

[west plank]

I think diablo and stego were strengthened for rex, but diablo should have stayed on the isle before reaching 2 tons.

[golden coral]

Diablo was upsized so it's stats would fit its model

And yeah, supposedly stego got rekit to make it better, but then they decided to just remove all that made the rekit good

[alpine plover]

Fr example being galli reaching 73.3 km/h with mobilization + day speed buff + perfect diet

[west plank]

When he was 1.5 tons, cera would wait for him to make a mistake with his charge bite and deal a lot of damage. Now he has 2x health, cera can't do much against him in 1v1.

[dusky surge]

yup

[dusky surge]

cera shouldn't be able to in the first place lol

it's flat out not supposed to be a hunter, so why is it 1v1ing diablos and expected to win lol

[west plank]

yeah that's why they made him stronger because allo and rex will come to the isle

[west plank]

cera was capable of hunting diablo, but diablo has very powerful weapons against him and when he weighed 3 tons, diablo became very strong against both cera and allo.

[west plank]

And on top of that, it knocks down a stego. Hordetest also revealed a lot of seriously unstable things.

[golden coral]

Yeah, diablo seems to be able to take on allo by now

Rex, I sincerely doubt though, at that point dibble should run

[dusky surge]

yea dibble should absolutely book it lol

[west plank]

Diablo is strong enough to stun an adult Rex, so Hordetest should progress more evenly.

[west plank]

So, instead of putting so much pressure on stego, Diablo should be made more balanced.

[alpine plover]

It’s not putting pressure though, it’s actually giving stego a niche and sticking with it

[golden coral]

Sure, but that doesn't fix stego issues

[dusky surge]

yea, dibble is a problem for stego, absolutely

but it's not stego's only problem

[golden coral]

Easily fixed, up stego to 8T and there we go

[dusky surge]

honestly, stego weight buff is long overdue

thing is literally MUCH heavier in real life

[golden coral]

Apparently new density measurement methods might put stego at 9.1T in weight/size

[alpine plover]

watch deino mains complain lmao

[west plank]

No my friend, you can't push the weight of herbivores like this, it creates an identity problem.

[dusky surge]

which is weird because The Isle usually LOVES to go for the highest available estimates of weight (or in the case of diablo, straight up make the thing DWARF it's real life variant)

[dusky surge]

what identity problem is there when the "big guy with a big spiky tail" is a "bigger guy with a big spiky tail"

[golden coral]

It does not, and you absolutely can. Stego can be up there with anky and trike, no problem about that. Same with acro being an "apex" as well

[west plank]

there shouldn't be a stego much larger and as heavy as rex

[golden coral]

They already do. There's one feedback about removing the "take less damage from large species" due to it helping stego vs deino, ignoring all of the other playables that might need or want that mutation

[dusky surge]

rex will still be heavier

[golden coral]

Why not? Why must rex be the heaviest?

Not that it will be anyway, pretty sure spino and shant and so on are larger anyway

[west plank]

and also significantly reduces the likelihood of these stegos preying on subspecies

. Why should we increase the weight of other dinosaurs for a single species? If only Diablo is edited, this will be enough.

[dusky surge]

i kinda like that mutation more than any other combat mutation, because it's in the realm of "you're better at fighting things bigger than you, I guess, but said things still have a power advantage, or in some cases, don't care and can still onetap you"

[golden coral]

What?

[golden coral]

I don't mind it too much (aside from the troodon health buff but thats an issue all of its own, not fitting weight to health), it was just an example of deino players having a problem with stegos, and offering a "solution" that doesn't even take any other playable into account

[west plank]

I think the mass of the stego should remain constant and the glaring Diablo problem should be solved and everything will be much better

[frail bobcat]

I love how people started having fun playing stego and isle devs went like "nuh uh"

[dusky surge]

https://tenor.com/view/nuh-uh-beocord-no-lol-gif-24435520

[west plank]

If Diablo had stayed at 1.5 tons and Bite Force at 300, I believe there wouldn't be such a problem.

[dusky surge]

there'd be a problem with an underpowered diablo

[west plank]

So if it had continued as it first appeared, no one would have said anything.

[west plank]

I think a Diablo that is not too big but does enough damage would be sufficient.

[dusky surge]

i'm not even against a lot of the nerfs, they're very good for the health of the creature

making it louder, making its growth tougher, making its juvi stages less powerful, all great to make the new rekit stego actually balanced around the rekit. what they did to the attacks though, really just bodyslammed the whole balance

[dusky surge]

yea, 1.5 tons is too small, and an extra 25 damage does not make up for the literal 1500HP nerf

[golden coral]

Right, but it's not just diablo that's a "problem". Stego is bad in and of itself, no matter if dibble exist or not. And stego could none the less do with being upsized to 8T or there abouts, just to make it a bit more proper of a large and powerful playable. And if it's meant to trade blows to have a chance to hit, then it's all the more reason to up it's weight/health/blood pool.

[sonic flame]

Well, to power swing, yes, the jab changes are actually pretty nice imo

[golden coral]

Pretty much. Stego isn't allowed to be fun or something.

[sonic flame]

Being able to use it when out of stamina is nice, tho with grapple as it is, being out of stam is death

[dusky surge]

i wish it was bound to alt+LMB, would make it a lot more accessible imho

[golden coral]

Would still like the jab attack speeds to be equalized, so there's all good angles, and not one decent and the rest bad

Also yes, rebind jab to alt RMB, and make the running swing hit on the side you're looking

[sonic flame]

Idk about the rest bad, I think the 45 and 135 speeds aren't bad at all

[west plank]

stego has acquired a very powerful feature, but diablo has become such that the strongest anti-dinosaur that can be made against stego would be like this, so stego needs to be balanced with mutations and diablo, there is no real need for mass increase.

[sonic flame]

the front/back ones are basically useless, but there's still a pretty wide range of attack at a decent speed for the jabs

[west plank]

Believe me, when Rex or Allo comes, it will not be as comfortable as Diablo.

The only problem with the game is Diablo and mutations

And stego stamina cost

[dusky surge]

i'm just disappointed in stego's current directions. The nerfs feel like 2 steps in the right direction, then shooting a .357 in your foot.

The recent growth nerf? Great. The juvi nerf? Great. Then the pot was soured with this unnecessary damage nerf.

The addition of sounds for raising the tail? Great. The quick fix to the fact that stegos didn't vocalise while moving? Great. Then we got hit with that colossal stam nerf AND a cooldown that just took all fluidity out of the combat.

It gives me pre-rekit stego. Wait, bait swings, stam down, attack. While the ability to jab while out of stam is great, with the powercreep that comes with the current balance VERY MUCH punishing you for being out of stam (even moreso with stego's main opponents soon to be omni, allo and rex, the holy trinity of grappling), it looks like more of the same for stego, but in a shinier suit.

For every good nerf, there's one that just betrays the point.

[dusky surge]

Which is sad, because the power swings do a MUCH better job of covering those angles, but of course, their current state leaves them questionable if you'd even want to use them

[sonic flame]

I think Allo and Rex will likely provide a good reason to adjust Stego again, should combat prove too easy for em

[west plank]

I think mutations need to be addressed before this regulation.

[dusky surge]

I mean, of course. I stand by the fact that combat mutations harm more than help, and it's VERY apparent in mutations such as stam regen on damage, health regen on eating, ANY speed/damage boost

[golden coral]

Stego did get a nice feature, that was then made terrible due to a bunch of unneeded nerfs. But it's not just about diablo, I'm talking about stego being good in general, vs you know, all of the roster. Like how diablo should be good vs all of the roster, in what suits diablo. And sure, there's no "need", but it would be nice none the less. That's all, really.

[sonic flame]

The standing swing doesn't cover beyond your hip and you may not want to sprint at something on your shoulder, while the jab hitslower behind you, which can cover areas the swing might miss. There's still use cases for the jab, it's just not the best option in every situation anymore, since it's no longer Stego's only option in every situation

[golden coral]

It's bad when you're also very stationary/slow or obvious in your attacks, or both

[sonic flame]

You're still stationary and obvious with the power swing, even the sprinting variant brings you to a dead halt and require the telegraph of sprinting before you can use it

[west plank]

So what needs to be done is that the diablo should be 2 tons and the stego should be balanced with mutations.

[golden coral]

Even if it doesn't, it still comes down to being fun, and being good vs what it should be good vs. Stego just isn't good at anything, aside from maybe fighting carnos (small game hunters) and anything tiny enough (aside from troodon) to actually hurt it. And they've repeatedly said stego is better off not being where rex is. Can all the nerfs be reverted, sure. Is it likely to happen, I doubt it.

[west plank]

If these happen, there will be no problem

[sonic flame]

I don't want to pretend that Stego's powerswing has granted it a fast and flexible attack option, because at the end of the day, it's kind of just stronger 135 jab with a bit more coverage while standing, with the option for huge 180 hitbox if you can someone pull off the most telegraphed move in the game since you have to enter the swing state and run at something

[golden coral]

Except you can react faster because you're in "charge" mode, unless you got a comparison to see?

[golden coral]

No, mutations should not work like that. And again, diablo has nothing to do with stego. That's not the issue here.

[sonic flame]

You can react faster with an additional attack compared to 45/135 angles [I think, would have to double check that] but it's slower than the hit directly to the side. Being in charge mode is a telegraph by itself, limiting your range of attack to the 180 degrees behind you with a blindspot directly under the tail vs shorter targets

[mint star]

casual reminder that the mutations are only cranked up this high for testing purposes

[golden coral]

Pretty much. Stego was fun, for a patch. Then back to unfun.

[west plank]

Since Diablo is enlarged, other dinosaurs do not need to be heavier.

[golden coral]

The issue isn't telegraphing, the issue is how quickly you can throw out the attack

[west plank]

Yes, we need to find the middle ground.

[golden coral]

Which is simple, revert all the nerfs. Then put standing swing at 5% cost, running at 10% cost, jab at 4% cost. Start there and see.

[west plank]

This becomes very powerful with mutations. First, the mutations need to be corrected and then an arrangement can be made for stego.

[sonic flame]

In terms of "When my attack is where I'm trying to hit" the power swing isn't substantially faster than the 45/135 jabs, and is slower than the 90 jab

[west plank]

4% is a very small fee

[golden coral]

Mutations are not how to balance, unless you want to do that for all playables. Stego should be good without mutations, and then adjust mutations to not make things too good.

[sonic flame]

To clarify tho, these are all differences of 0.1-0.2 seconds, or 6-12 frames

[golden coral]

Might explain why it's not all that noticable then. But it really does seem off

[west plank]

Mutations are now available for all dinosaurs. The stego needs to be regulated, but the rates you mentioned are significantly too low.

[golden coral]

That's for the jab, and it's a difference of 5 attacks from the other one

[golden coral]

... Okay, but you don't balance in the way of going "must take mutation or be bad", so lets balance to make the critter good. Then adjust the "too good" mutations after that. And no, those rates would be fine, any higher and stego goes back to "can't really do much, stamina reliant"

[west plank]

As I said, mutations should be addressed first and then an arrangement should be made for stego.

[sonic flame]

Best I can guess is that Stego being in the charge stance makes the transition to the attack feel less awkward that the directional attack where stego has to visually widen its stance first while pulling back the tail, then thrust it forward while turning, then return to idle

[golden coral]

Disagree, the other way around is better

[sonic flame]

More movement overall, even if it's not that much more time

[golden coral]

Could very well be that, yes. But it does seem odd then that the jab is faster despite all that extra movement

[sonic flame]

It's the weaker attack, so it doesn't need to sell impact as much as the swing does, the actual attack part of the jab makes up a lot less of the animation time than the swing

[west plank]

If we fix the mutations, then we will see who is stronger and thus we can give the necessary ratio to stego.

[golden coral]

Also odd, because the jab looks more powerful than the swing, aside from the running one that is of course

[golden coral]

But we don't need to fix the mutations to be able to tell how the playable works or if it's any good. Again, look at cerato and eat to heal mutation

[sonic flame]

Personally, disagree on looking more powerful. There's a greater sense of weight shifting through the hips during the swing since the animal isn't also repositioning. I've always felt the jab lacked power, visually, while the swing looks and feels like an attack that'd lay out a rex

[golden coral]

The running swing, sure, the standing one? How are you possibly seeing that lay out a rex of all things... xD

I think it's because the jab sort of "starts" up that makes it look more powerful

While the swing being from charge, then it's ready, so the attack itself doesn't look that powerful to me

[sonic flame]

The way the Stego's weight shifts on its hips, and the slight recurve of the tail during the start of the power swing make it feel like like poking something with the tail spikes and more like the animal's entire weight is being throw behind the tail spikes

like throwing a punch from just your shoulders while dancing around someone, vs planting your feet, twisting your hips, and slamming someone with the full force of your body

[golden coral]

I would go look at them ingame, but I can't really be bothered to play stego at this point in time. But well, I guess this is rather subjective anyway, how it looks/feels.

[golden coral]

You and your fighting games xD

[sonic flame]

That was actually from my time in Karate

You can't generate as much force while moving, even just rotating in place to face someone, as you can when you've got a solid stance

[golden coral]

I'd say that fits the statement just fine anyways

[sonic flame]

That's why Stego's jab looks weak to me, it looks/feels like a jab [a weak punch usually used to gauge an opponents block] rather than a forceful swing

[dusky surge]

i have to agree with hyper, the deliberate flick looks a lot stronger than this long range poke

[golden coral]

Fair, it's not much to argue about anyway, it doesn't actually make the attacks work any better or worse xD

[dusky surge]

like stego is almost extending itself out to reach that far, rather than it just naturally moving as it should

[west plank]

The rates of some mutations need to be reduced, then, as I said, the necessary regulation must be made to the stego, the stego should not be as big and powerful as trike and or powerful as other big herbivores

[dusky surge]

I still disagree with "fix this other problem before making this animal fun"

just make the animal fun

[golden coral]

Why not? Why can it not be as powerful as trike or the others?

[west plank]

Diablo is very weak, so let's give him a weight buff. Stego is weak, so let's give him a weight buff. This logic seriously spoils the game.

[golden coral]

Stego should be as powerful as the other large herbis really, no reason for it not to. And diablo wasn't buffed due to being weak anyway.

[west plank]

The stego should stay between mid and apex size, there shouldn't be only 3 classes in the game, there should be types in between so that the game is more balanced.

[golden coral]

Oh sure, there should be more than just small, mid, large, hence we have apex, tiny, and so on too. But there's no reason stego can't be at apex, or very close to it. And even an upsized stego at 7.5-8T would be smaller than most of the apexes anyway.

[west plank]

Yes, it will be small, but the difference will be very small. I want the difference to be significant, otherwise the class distinction will not be taken into consideration.

[golden coral]

Right, but there's a decent difference between 8 to 10T or so

And deino is 8T despite not being apex either for that matter

[west plank]

The mass increase of stego will completely destroy the deino and there will be no dinosaurs between 8-3 tons left. I think this is very unnecessary. Stego is very good at the moment and will crush Rex in the future with its damage.

[west plank]

If it exceeds 6 tons, deino won't be able to keep it

[golden coral]

Why would there be no dino left between 8-3T, or are you only thinking of current roster? Because I'm thinking of the entire roster being in. And no, stego isn't really that good. And sure, deino shouldn't be hunting a stego anyway, that was always a strange decision. Deino would not be hunting trike or rex or maybe even acro, so why stego.

[west plank]

No dinosaur swimming in water can hold a candle to Deino, I'm not counting Spino here, it will be something different. That's why stego doesn't need this, maybe if it is deemed necessary in the future, but there is no need to increase the size right now.

[golden coral]

What makes you think deino will be going after a swimming rex, or trike, or even a shant?

[west plank]

I don't know what will happen in the future, but the current apex balance is like this and it may continue like this in the future.

[leaden remnant]

honestly i prefer stegos to have to use the normal swing more

so i agree with making it cost a lotta stam

[golden coral]

Could at least lower the cost of the normal jab then

[leaden remnant]

it can swing when outta stam, no need

[golden coral]

Yes, there's a need, you don't want to be out of stam, or even near

[leaden remnant]

then manage your stam better

[golden coral]

Or just lower the cost so you can properly use the attack

[leaden remnant]

5% for an attack with such a high damage is perfect

[golden coral]

No, because the damage doesn't matter, the attack isn't very reliable, and should cost less

4% would only be 5 more attacks, but it'd still be something

[leaden remnant]

what makes it not really reliable

[golden coral]

Too clunky, too baitable

Relies on trading, more than actually hitting the target before getting hit

[leaden remnant]

then stegos would be unkillable

[golden coral]

No, they wouldn't, not anywhere near

[leaden remnant]

if it wasn't baitable we would be completely fricked

cause that is, yknow, the only way to kill a stego

[golden coral]

You really wouldn't, you just would need to actually risk your pack, as you should

[leaden remnant]

you already risk it tho

[golden coral]

You don't, it's far too baitable

[leaden remnant]

uh yes you do

[golden coral]

That's the thing, stegos own capabilities are really bad

[leaden remnant]

we kill 20% of the stegos we actually engage with

and that is being generous with the %

[golden coral]

And how many of them fight you?

[leaden remnant]

all

[golden coral]

As opposed to hide in terrain?

Also that's one in five stegos, for a very large and powerful critter

[leaden remnant]

that's a good % imo

[golden coral]

I guess one in five trikes or rexes would be fine too, though that should be even easier

So hoping it'll be something like one of three rexes or trikes being killed, that'd be good balance compared to stego

[leaden remnant]

so i'd very much rather keep it like that than lower it to below 10% yknow

[golden coral]

Sure, now if it was because of stego being good, and not because of terrain, I'd be fine with it

[leaden remnant]

it's not terrain most of the times

let's say we figured out a way to invalidate terrain

at least 95% of the time

[golden coral]

Right, I'll believe that when I see it to be honest

[leaden remnant]

the technique is easy, it's just pretty slow

[golden coral]

Provide a video of your next hunt and we'll see then

[leaden remnant]

you keep nibbling the spikes of the stego and, when you hit it, you look behind you

the biting animation makes you go forward, so you hit the spikes and you can't be hit if the stego swings

... and it actually does damage

[golden coral]

Wait... you're telling me, you kill one out of five stegos, by nibbling it's tailtip/spikes?

[leaden remnant]

not like that

the stego moves, so his head is vulnerable and gets bitten in the face

[golden coral]

Why would it move if it does nothing to be bitten on the tail?

[leaden remnant]

it actually does

not much, yknow, but it deals a bit of damage

[golden coral]

... you know, that does not by any means make the case for stego being bad any less true

Only proves the point, you can somehow kill a stego via nibbling it's tailspikes

[leaden remnant]

im simply explaining how we kill stegos

[golden coral]

And, apparently according to you, can't be hit while doing so

[leaden remnant]

now, is there a counter to that? yes, however stegos don't know how to and they die

[golden coral]

I know, I asked for that, I appreciate it

But it does also show how bad stego is

Cause thaat shouldn't be a thing in the first place

[leaden remnant]

yknow the funny thing

if you have a partner with you, that technique ain't available

[golden coral]

Right, but the "herd up" argument isn't really good

[leaden remnant]

not saying herd up

which you should do ngl but still

[golden coral]

Kind of, "if you have a partner", implying that you need a partner to "not be nibbled to death by tailtip"

That's, again, really showing how bad stego is

[leaden remnant]

cause 1+1 = 2, 2 tails are more than 1

[slim dragon]

Stego is a terrible candidate for herding up

[leaden remnant]

it's really not

[golden coral]

And what, pray tell, do you do then?

[leaden remnant]

you go to an elevated place and it's over

[golden coral]

It is. There's no way around it, if you think "we can nibble a stego to death by tailtip", unless it has a friend, is good balance, I don't know what else to say.

That's like saying you should be able to nibble through an anky armor

[leaden remnant]

thing is, i never said you can nibble a stego to death by tail tips

[golden coral]

But you can, cause it does damage apparently

[leaden remnant]

because it takes so long that you would die to starvation damage

[golden coral]

Meaning even shoving your head into a tree won't save you, so there

[leaden remnant]

and the stego would have to be afk

[golden coral]

Right, but you got numbers, you can trade off

[leaden remnant]

i mean, shoving your head into a tree is ridiculous and shouldn't be a thing

or into a rock

[golden coral]

Agree, but it should not be a thing for any playable, just like attacking through objects should not be a thing for any playable. Yet only stego is currently punished for it.

Maybe pachy as well, and possibly omni unless you can still pounce objects and not take any punishment

[leaden remnant]

how exactly is stego punished for it

[golden coral]

You know the swing has a recoil right?

[leaden remnant]

ofc

[golden coral]

Sure, you can still use the jab, but point still stands. Stego has an attack where it gets punished if it hits something, which most playables do not have. Omni lost its punishment on missing pounce meanwhile.

[leaden remnant]

it gets punished if it hits something?

[golden coral]

But maybe it'll be more common with recoil and charges/cooldown

[leaden remnant]

how exactly is killing something punishing the stego

[golden coral]

If you hit an object with the swing, you get recoil

[leaden remnant]

oh that's why

[golden coral]

Is what I'm tallking about

[leaden remnant]

i understand

so since you mentioned the tail tip nibble thing, let me explain why you can't kill a stego with that

[golden coral]

Not if you hit a playable no, though maybe they'll do that, for all I know xD

[leaden remnant]

because, first, the stego will die to something else before it happens, it does 1% health each 3 bites
second, it takes so long for the stego idle animation to come back to your mouth that you would die to starvation
third, the stego can just find a better wall/place or literally just move, bait you and spike your face

the tail nibble thing, at least the way i use it, is not meant to kill the stego, it's only meant to scare him

he'll get out and try to attack me, so another raptor can attack him

it also annoys the stego player to hear the pain sound so he'll just get driven crazy and try by all means to make sure i can't do that again

... which also gives us at least 35 different openings to attack

but this is where it gets tricky, remember that one mistake and you're dead, and that you can invalidate this trick by what i said

so it only works on certain stegos (the ones that aren't familiar with how stego works and how to fight raptors)

[golden coral]

Maybe if you're on your own, but with a full pack, you got some ability to both trade out and fill up, or even sacrifice one of you (cannibal mutation). So that can be worked around in one way or the other. As for the rest, annoying via sound, seems like a bit of an exploit. Having 35+ openings, I mean, there's a reason I keep saying stego is bad. And sure, one hit and you die, but it's far too easy to avoid being hit, hence why I argue for at least making jab better if it's meant to be the "main" attack to use.

[leaden remnant]

sacrificing was never an option

[golden coral]

It wouldn't surprise me all that much if a dibble does better in the same situation as stego honestly

[leaden remnant]

and 35+ openings is an overexaggeration

realistically you only have 1 opening per successful bait

[golden coral]

After all, deino almost does better on land, and if it wasn't for water going down before you can blink, it might do better

[leaden remnant]

deino does not do better on land than stego

even a hatchling troodon does better

[golden coral]

Well, it is an option, especially if you run that mutation

[leaden remnant]

no sire 1h 42m growth time

it is not an option

[golden coral]

Okay, let me clarify that one. In the given situation of fighting, in this case I'm assuming omnis.

[golden coral]

I figured, but still

[golden coral]

Could always find another raptor to sacrifice xD

[leaden remnant]

but sire

nobody is crazy enough to sacrifice

[golden coral]

Doesn't neccesarily have to be your own pack, just bark, attract random, and there you go

[leaden remnant]

instead of dying you can swap targets

[golden coral]

Doesn't have to be a willing sacrifice either

[leaden remnant]

i mean if you're doin cannibal mutation sure bark attract a random pin him down eat him

[leaden remnant]

but

deinos are awfully easy to kill

at least as a raptor

[golden coral]

Might be true these days, but there's been times where it's done far too well on land, and had surprisingly good agility (with the attack that is) for hitting things around it

[leaden remnant]

i got a bit mad when they removed it from raptor diet due to how easy it is to kill one

im not lying when i say it was the easiest way to get s

find one bite the living hell outta him

ive tried to be the deino a few times and it was legitimately impossible to kill the raptor

[golden coral]

At least something then, suppose I should be glad for that

[alpine plover]

@analog mirage Imma be honest, I disagree with allowing ptera to be more of the juvenile hunter, that was never its intended niche anyway, besides that what is quetz going to do if ptera occupys the juvie/small game hunter?

[analog mirage]

Quetz is far harder to grow and hunt as you are a literal giant plane. You are easy to see and therefor it’s hard to get the jump on someone

Is Pteranadon being able to hunt smaller animals a bad thing?

Cause as it stands. A fisher who flys all day who doesn’t interact with the ecosystem isn’t very fun

[alpine plover]

I mean why does the "fisher" playable have to fight things near twice its size on the ground?

I"m not saying ptera is currently ok, it most certainly isn't but making it more combat reliant isn't the right solution for it

[analog mirage]

Pteranadon has very boring gameplay. It’s not fun to just catch fish and watch people all day. Allowing it to hunt juveniles lets it at least contribute something to the ecosystem and gives a sort of starter for new players

It’s about expanding its playstyle to not be one dimensional

At the same time we don’t want it to just become invincible by directly buffing its stats

Otherwise we get the original issue where it takes a hit, flys off and never dies

[leaden remnant]

indeed

[leaden remnant]

it wont be invincible tho

easily killed even with good stats

[alpine plover]

the combat thing is just unusal? like this isn't mortal combat not every single playable has to have a set niche dedicated to combat.

[analog mirage]

With ptera’s current stats. Ground fighting is impossible. It can’t hunt Juvies. It’s far too fragile

Even with the stat buffs during a combat stance it isn’t fighting stuff like raptors. It still gets pounced and killed

Just so it can fight stuff like dryo and Juvies on the ground without being trash

[slim dragon]

ptera is NOT a fighter

[analog mirage]

Yes and no

I believe Ptera should hunt Juvies. It should be the easy mode for carnivores who wanna hunt things

[slim dragon]

even dryo is over 2x its size

[analog mirage]

It doesn’t necessarily need to hunt

But it should have the ability to do so

To a limited group of animals

[slim dragon]

It can already do that

[analog mirage]

Not really

[slim dragon]

Nothing can escape it nor fight back properly

the only way is to hide

[analog mirage]

Carnivores do need to ability to just bite up to prevent the Pteranadon drone spam

But I still want Ptera to land and attack juvies

Use flight for travel and escape

[slim dragon]

It can do that too

[analog mirage]

If you land, you are basically juvie fodder

It’s too weak, isn’t fast enough and doesn’t have enough health to take many hits

[slim dragon]

It's very strong for its size

Remember ptera is barely bigger than hypsi

[analog mirage]

Which is exactly the problem

Its simply too frail (which by design is good if you want it flying off if something tries to snatch it). But doesn’t work if you want it hunting Juvies

[slim dragon]

That's the point
You don't want it hunting juvies

Ptera may need buffs
But definitely not a combat one

[analog mirage]

If you don’t want it hunting at the bare minimum Juvies then it simply doesn’t interact with the environment

At that point. You simply can’t do anything and therefor have nothing of value to bring to the ecosystem

[slim dragon]

Everything doesn't have to be about combat

Again, ptera can fight and kill juvies

[analog mirage]

I agree, not everything is about combat. But consider that hunting (a carnivore literally just trying to survive) is PVP

You can’t have hunting without combat

[slim dragon]

Ptera doesn't need that

[analog mirage]

So what does Pteranadon actually contribute to the ecosystem then

[slim dragon]

It's mostly a prey item

[analog mirage]

As a carnivore it needs to eat meat. Meat comes from ai animals or other players. Therefor the Pteranadon needs to interact with other players. It needs to hunt

[slim dragon]

Fish

There might be a part of "fisher" that you don't understant

[analog mirage]

It’s fine to be a fisher but that shouldn’t be its only defining factor. Because otherwise it doesn’t actually do anything else

You aren’t interacting with a player when fishing

You are interacting with a static prop that plays a animation loop

That is all it’s gameplay is

So you are not interacting with a player. Therefore you do not contribute to the ecosystem if you have no reason to be around other players

It’s not a herbivore who has migrations that lead carnivores to them for food

It’s a carnivore who just doesn’t interact with anyone

So you make it interact with the environment more. By making it hunt Juvies. The lowest of the low.

[alpine plover]

That’s like saying because a fishing bird doesn’t interact with a lion it serves no purpose in the ecosystem

[slim dragon]

Your rework idea is making it hunt things two tiers above its own

[analog mirage]

I’m taking into consideration that Juvies can get fairly big capping it at 300kg of a knockdown weight IF it got a divebomb

That also factors in the smaller animals like dryo Herrera and trooodon

They are basically Juvies who can kill

[slim dragon]

They're all much bigger than ptera

[analog mirage]

The difference is that Juvies get size but not damage, things like dryo and Herrera get damage but not size

Ptera hunts the juvies

[alpine plover]

Hatchlings*

Juvies are obv bigger, hatchlings Ptera doesn’t have to come on the ground and start fighting.

[analog mirage]

Most players will start as Juvies

I don’t mind Ptera just being an easy to play juvie killer who can fish for free food.

The issue is it isn’t equipped to kill Juvies

[analog mirage]

A Carno eating only ai in one corner of the map for its entire life is no different than a ptera who lives its entire life eating fish. Neither of the two interact with the ecosystem

So again. If you are not interacting with the ecosystem. There is no point to play the animal

If a player isn’t interacting with other players it will not have much else to do

[dusky surge]

Here's how I'd buff ptera, while thematically keeping in line with its prior niche

• Allow it to consume rotting corpses without penalty
• Give it an EXCEPTIONALLY enhanced scent radius while in the air, allowing it to fly and find new food to scavenge
• Allow it to dive underwater and reemerge
• Increase its swim speed significantly
• Increase its water vision, and give it underwater NV
• Increase its O2 levels
• Allow it to take off from the surface of the water

No PvP, just making it better and more fun at stuff it already was meant to do

[distant torrent]

this needs to be posted so I can check mark it a second time lol

[alpine plover]

This is better imo still in line with its og niche

[dusky surge]

done lol

[dusky surge]

@abstract dawn diablo has an insanely powerful head hitbox damage reduction, alongside the fact that carno's charge is rather poor atm

[west plank]

If you want to kill a diablo, hit its body, otherwise the damage taken from its head decreases by 1/4, this is a necessary feature for diablos. @abstract dawn

[west plank]

Therefore, while standing still, it rotates around as slowly as a deino, or even slower.

[west plank]

Hi pool,how is it going?

[abstract dawn]

The feature itself is fine but I find it just a little absurd a freshspawn diablo can tank a charge to the face. Adults blocking it absolutely makes sense and stopping carno in its tracks to beat him is good. But he's too good at it rn imo

[dusky surge]

<@&933486433342222376> epic gift, just for us!

[slim dragon]

How did you know it was my birthday today ?

[dusky surge]

they even forgot the https://

what kind of operation are they running over there

[green heart]

Thanks

[slim dragon]

Hey
My gift

[dusky surge]

D:

[dusky surge]

#balance-feedback too

[idle star]

i am confused

[frail bobcat]

I have your IP-adress

[slim dragon]

That's not impressive
I have my IP adress too

[frail bobcat]

true

[west plank]

What do you think about the current state of Diablo? What changes do you expect?
@uncut trellis
#balance-feedback message

[dusky surge]

this is the third in a row. it's becoming ridiculous how many times you've said the same thing over and over

[west plank]

Some reasons come to my mind and I think this issue should remain on the agenda.

[alpine plover]

No reason to repeat it 4 times

[west plank]

This is not exactly a repetition. I also said that it should be 1.5 tons in some places and I tried to give the best feedback. If you do not like it, you can press x.

[west plank]

And also, I didn't repeat it 4 times here. When the diablo was first increased to 3 tons, you gave feedback to reduce it to 2 tons once, and now I want the diablo to be reduced to 2 tons one more time for reasons, so there is literally no repetition.

So I couldn't count 4 times

[primal heart]

Dibble is only 4-5 meter in real life

[west plank]

I agree with you that Diablo should not have such a mass, otherwise the balance in the game will be disrupted.

[dusky surge]

it really isn't disrupted though

[primal heart]

It can't be 3 ton and it doesn't make sense

[dusky surge]

the only creature that actually cares about dibble's 3 ton weight is stego

[west plank]

In other words, I think it is impossible for a dinosaur that the majority does not want to weigh more than 2 tons to remain at this level.

[primal heart]

Dibble even turn more slow Since they put on dibble's weight

Not good at all

[dusky surge]

not true

the agility of diablo has not been changed between its 1.5 ton version and now

[west plank]

No, dinosaurs like Cera and Carno need to have the potential to hunt them. Diablo with 3000 health makes this job very difficult.

[dusky surge]

carno does not need the potential to hunt them. It is very explicitly said by the devs diablo is not on the menu for carno

cerato isn't a hunter, not should it be, it's a scavenger. And it's already VERY good at hunting dibble, even at 3 tons

[west plank]

By the way, this is a bit strange because Diablo is in Carno's diet but not in Cera's diet.

[leaden remnant]

ceras r not supposed to hunt them, carnos are supposed to hunt the small dibbles

[primal heart]

Anyway 3 ton dibble is unreal and have a bad grow experiences in game

[cosmic pelican]

There was a time when deino was on omnis diet, so that isnt saying much🤷‍♂️

[primal heart]

Why my first ceratopsia should grow so long

[dusky surge]

then just don't go near the dibble

[west plank]

I agree with you 100%

[dusky surge]

the growth time hasn't changed since it was 1.5 tons

it has always taken this long to grow

the only difference is now it's actually got the weight of a 4 hour grow animal

[west plank]

No, we are still in hordetest and Diablo should be more balanced than hordetest.

[primal heart]

And changes that increase body weight make it less likely that growth time will be shortened

Same as pachy released

Remember？4 hour pachy

[leaden remnant]

just like when raptors had deino

raptors are excellent deino hunters on land

literally top tier

so you were supposed to be killing the mid-sized n small ones

[west plank]

In my opinion, Diablo should stay at 1.5 tons and get its 300 biteforce back because Diablo disturbs Tenonto a lot.
Diablo's herbivorous rival should be around Tenonto, not Stego

[dusky surge]

300 bite force is too low given the massive loss to health still

diablo is one of the most vulnerable animals due to its poor turnrate, low speed and open flanks

your proposition for a diablo would be literal raptor/cera fodder

[west plank]

diablo must be fragile and pay the price with damage

[primal heart]

I understand you want make the animals you like to get bigger and stronger

[dusky surge]

it literally is only gaining 25 damage, that genuinely doesn't matter that much given it loses 1500HP

[leaden remnant]

tbh they held their ground against raptors

[west plank]

I agree that a little more rotation speed should be added to it.

[primal heart]

But deino bite force is only 500

[dusky surge]

I don't really like diablo. Def not one of my favourite animals.

[west plank]

I think the feedback given by thelsatzerg is very useful.

[dusky surge]

I think it just agrees with you so you like it

[leaden remnant]

well that is how ppl like things

why would i agree with smth that i dislike

[alpine plover]

I’ve never suggested for dibble to being 2 tons uh? Why are you lying

[leaden remnant]

i only agree with things that i like for whatever reason

[dusky surge]

I've done it.

[leaden remnant]

wait hold on

nono wait im actually stupid

ignore what i just said

big ass brain fart

but i got a question bout da feedback tho

[west plank]

I'm sorry, my keyboard translated it wrong again,. my mistake

[dusky surge]

You have to accept that even if you don't like something, if it makes sense and is healthier for the game, it's still the better option.

I don't like the fact that deino can grab stego while swimming, but it makes sense. I have my concerns about the suchomimus matchup, but it's whatever.

[leaden remnant]

just realized that what i said made no sense 👍

[leaden remnant]

if dibble becomes good against everything, how is it gonna die

[dusky surge]

ideally by being grouped up against since that's very clearly its massive weakness

[leaden remnant]

i mean yeah but it's already a bit tricky to kill them with sparring

[west plank]

Yes, you are right, but Diablo is strong enough and should not weigh more than 2 tons. There are a few people who oppose this and I think this should be fixed.

I'm on the side of the majority and I think Diablo is unbalanced right now.

[dusky surge]

and yet you can stomp it with literally two ceras lol

[leaden remnant]

if you find a solo one, alright

it can be done

[alpine plover]

I mean if it’s in a group obviously it’d be harder to kill lmao

[leaden remnant]

but if it was good against everything, it wouldn't be done anymore

[primal heart]

Dibble in hordetesting never deal cerato well since 1.5 ton to 3 ton.and it's not about 25 bite force.
1500 hp increase just make you die slower and give you giving you the illusion that 3 ton creature didn't deserve to die like this.

[leaden remnant]

in my opinion, it should suck against certain things

[alpine plover]

And it does

[leaden remnant]

cause if something is big, strong, and is great against everything, uh oh, we done

[west plank]

Yes, but Diablo is also almost capable of 3v1 and considering other dinosaurs that will come to the game, Diablo should be balanced.

[dusky surge]

it does. Like cera and raptor.

[leaden remnant]

yeah but the suggestion is to make it good against ceras and raptors

... which i think is a bit crazy yknow

[leaden remnant]

yeah i know dats what im saying

[dusky surge]

You can't make diablo inexplicably good against raptor. Improving its life against raptor would be a nice QoL

[leaden remnant]

that it's gotta suck against something or they'll just not die

[dusky surge]

Diablo's flanks aren't getting any less exposed.

[dusky surge]

Nothing sucks against anything (besides pachy against a speed-boosted cera but that's a mutation)

If we had matchups like that, it'd be a bad game

[leaden remnant]

that is pretty much false

carno sucks against dibbles

deino sucks against stegos

raptor sucks against ceras

[west plank]

Diablo should be a dinosaur that is lighter (1500), can turn faster (almost like a carno) and has good damage (300 bite force) this will be more than enough for him.

[primal heart]

He hopes so, and doesn't lose weight.
Just want it big and strong.

[leaden remnant]

and so on

[dusky surge]

and all of those can just... avoid those things

[primal heart]

I like can understand that feeling but we can't change dibble into a unreal monster.

[leaden remnant]

yeah i know but im just saying

[dusky surge]

Dibble can't

[leaden remnant]

everything should suck against something, otherwise they just won't die

and with suck i don't mean be unable to do anything

[dusky surge]

Dibble is slower than raptors, slower than ceras, slower than carnos, so it should be expected to fight them.

[leaden remnant]

i just mean above average skill required to survive the encounter

[alpine plover]

But it isn’t an “unreal monster”

[primal heart]

3 ton dibble is

[leaden remnant]

ofc, and im not saying it shouldn't, but it also shouldn't have great turning speed, otherwise they straight up won't die

[alpine plover]

What makes it a monster?

[primal heart]

It is smaller than carno in reality

[west plank]

Diablo is a complete war machine, but it doesn't need to be this big.

[dusky surge]

but it would? raptors would still kill it effectively

[leaden remnant]

no, cause the only reason raptors can kill one is cause of the bad turning speed

[dusky surge]

literally pounce the still 3 exposed flanks while its aiming to someone

[primal heart]

4-5 meter creature have 3 ton.which is not real

[leaden remnant]

so if you make the turning speed considerably better, goodbye

[dusky surge]

no, it's because of the colossaly open flanks lol

[leaden remnant]

no sir

[west plank]

He already has 1/4 damage reduction from his head, which is enough for him.

[dusky surge]

that's why it isn't 4-5 meters in this game

[leaden remnant]

it is because it sucks with turning so you can out turn it while baiting n stuff

open flanks don't matter if it can put his ass against a wall and commit mass murder

bait it out of the wall, get a nice pounce in, back off a bit n repeat

[dusky surge]

which you'd still be able to do

[primal heart]

Even if it's bigger, we shouldn't stray too far from reality, should we

[leaden remnant]

uh no, not even close

the reason you can get a nice pounce in is cause it can't turn fast enough to kill you

and the only reason ceras are great against raptors is because they have good turn speed

[west plank]

As long as Diablo keeps his head towards his enemies, he will have no problem, because even if his weight is reduced to 1.5 tons, his health is equivalent to the health of an adult stego and this will be more than enough for him.

[leaden remnant]

so you can, instead of taking like 5 seconds to do a 180, just pull out a funny and in less than a second be biting the face of a raptor who was behind you

[leaden remnant]

well the main reason not the only reason

[west plank]

because he has damage reduction from his head

[alpine plover]

Doesn’t mean it needs more flexibility imo

[leaden remnant]

having said that, if dibbles suddenly had great turning speed, say goodbye to dead dibbles

at least big dibbles would only die to deinos and stegos

[primal heart]

In fact, team with another dibble would solve all the problems.
Ceratopsia are just not good at defending their butts, so they need teammates.

[leaden remnant]

ofc, and that's how it should be kept

[primal heart]

If you alone can fix everything, it's an imbalance

[leaden remnant]

cause if they put an update, me n my friends join, fight a dibble, and we see this mfer turn around in a second, im never fighting them again

[west plank]

Diablo has more special abilities than other dinosaurs, why should we keep him in 3 tones? His sparring ability is already enough for him, so a lot of things are on Diablo's side anyway.

So, I think there is no need to discuss much, everything is clear and obvious.

[west plank]

By the way, I tried to tell you that I didn't repeat it 4 times here. I only have 3 diablo feedback on this channel and 2 of them are only close to each other.

[primal heart]

Only a little more flexibility.maybe when hold Ctrl.

[dusky surge]

#balance-feedback message

i can't understand posts like this

okay... and? how does it suck? what does it need to not suck?

[west plank]

So he really needs to explain something

[dusky surge]

it kinda defeats the point of feedback if it's just a massive broad sweeping statement

[west plank]

I mean, many people like you and I give too much detail and I expect the same from others.

[dusky surge]

it doesn't need to be a whole paragraph or two, just literally any reasoning or the inkling of a solution to a problem, rather than just acknowledging you have an opinion and then not elaborating

its just otherwise such a nothing statement

[west plank]

yes good or bad but how??

they should say this

[west plank]

By the way, in the last updates, stego's damage decreased from 2500. Do you have any information about how much this is?

[dusky surge]

no idea, but i can put money on the fact it got overnerfed

[west plank]

Yes, in 0.14, ceratos became a trouble for stegos because they received a charge change, now it has become a complete apex with its new feature.

[west plank]

A single tail blow to the body directly kills the likes of Cera or Carno.

[dusky surge]

which it should

[west plank]

In other words, its new feature has made stego's old attack type unnecessary or unpreferable. I think a balance should be established between these two attack types.

[west plank]

They tried to balance this with the stamina cost, but this time it is very expensive, this situation of stego is a bit too complicated, I cannot say anything exactly.

[dusky surge]

It didn't need to be balanced with the stamina cost. It was fine with the prior stam cost.

[west plank]

stego should be an attack type that does not cost much and is effective against small or medium sized predators.

[dusky surge]

It still needs some effectiveness against larger predators

[west plank]

It's ridiculous to put a cooldown on it even though it got so much stamina nerf, they should remove it so it will be strong against big predators.

[west plank]

They can solve the spell like this. Also, the last time I played stego, I was a little uncomfortable when using the old attack type and the new attack type of stego, because they were both used on the same button, it was a bit troublesome.

[eternal oak]

Fair, it’s changed now

Normally a super long description can get skipped over because often you just can’t be asked to read a bunch for something that I could just summarize in 5 words

But if you want depth, sure, I’ll give you depth

[dusky surge]

carno has bad stamina? Hardly. Its stamina is kneecapped by charge, but in terms of stam, it's VERY good. Basically on par with cerato, who's much slower

[eternal oak]

Last I played carno I lost all my stamina real quick

[dusky surge]

most of its weakness falls onto its charge, which brings the whole thing crumbling down

[eternal oak]

The charge definitely plays a part

But the fixing the charge doesn’t solve the issue of carno just being kinda bad

[dusky surge]

i think most of the things you listed are intentional weaknesses

[eternal oak]

I listed a bunch of cons compared to like… 2 pros

[eternal oak]

Sure, like the turning

[dusky surge]

and the swimming, and the poor bleed damage

[eternal oak]

But I just think it’s kinda overkill

[dusky surge]

speed is a massive pro, tbf

[eternal oak]

Until hills or nighttime, or when pressing right click suddenly nukes your stamina

Nighttime is a big issue for carno cause of the night vision that i mentioned

[dusky surge]

i mean, it's not like carno should even be a night predator

[eternal oak]

Not a night predator

But at least enough night vision to see where you’re going

[dusky surge]

it does have that though

it's not excellent for dashing full speed through a hilly forest on a stormy night, but if you're doing that as carno, i'm sure you'll figure out the consequences

[eternal oak]

I disagree, I find myself stopping every five seconds to make sure there isn’t a sudden drop

[dusky surge]

you can take paths, or just trot

[eternal oak]

I’m not saying carno should have super good night vision, just enough to be more playable during night Is all

[dusky surge]

i don't think it shuts down at night at all? Its range is pretty much on-par with the rest of the roster

[eternal oak]

Eh, i don’t think it’s good enough to warrant the insane speed, the night vision should be above average but nowhere near dilo level or something

[dusky surge]

i don't believe carno should have remotely close to above average NV as a designated diurnal plains predator

it has the brightest, flattest home environment

[eternal oak]

Well then we disagree

[dusky surge]

it's not a night hunter, it never will be a night hunter. I'd rather it just not be starving to death every moment of its life so it can prepare itself for the nights, rather than being expected to hunt at night when it very evidently shouldn't

[eternal oak]

That is also a solution, carnos hunger is weird

But carno being bad at night isnt my only point

[leaden remnant]

the powerswing is made to do a super heavy blow on a big big predator

so i dont find it strange that it costs so much stamina

[dusky surge]

i find it strange for anything to cost over 10% stamina in a single action

carno and stego both have this problem

this isnt spiro anymore. Stam isn't a resource you can get back in a minute of sitting. We need reasonable stamcosts

[leaden remnant]

i agree

[west plank]

Yes, this may be possible, but since the old attack type was on the same button, it bothered me a lot the last time I played it, I think they should change this. Also, when I last played, stego was able to attack using his power swing ability even though his stamina ran out. I wonder if they fixed this?

[leaden remnant]

but it's the only way to keep players from only using it ig

[dusky surge]

8% for a powerswing? I can agree to that. 15%? Let's not be foolish.

[leaden remnant]

i absolutely agree with changing the power swing thingy button

[dusky surge]

That's absurd. The attack has enough penalties to not be your go to every time

[west plank]

They shouldn't be able to use this ability without stamina.

[leaden remnant]

uh no

it has less penalties than the main one

well it used to have

[dusky surge]

uh yes

[leaden remnant]

kinda unaware if they did some weird things to it

[dusky surge]

it has the longest endlag of any of stego's attacks, REQUIRES you to be sprinting, aims exclusively towards your front (your most vulnerable side), etc

15% is not worth that

[leaden remnant]

yeah ig they just want it to be used on big things when the hit is guaranteed

[dusky surge]

even then it's still bad

[leaden remnant]

instead of using it on everything that moves

[west plank]

maybe it could be worth against rex but %15 too much

[leaden remnant]

yah thats what im saying, ig they only want it to be used against rex

[dusky surge]

it'd be good for a bit before you go "oh damn there goes 15% of the stuff i use to fight or flee or resist grapples"

[dusky surge]

except that also makes no sense for why they did this

because they nerfed the damage

[west plank]

What I have in mind is that assigning the old attack type of the stego to a different key or assigning the new attack type to a different key will make the stego comfortable.

[dusky surge]

the old attack should be alt attack

[west plank]

I think it wouldn't be bad if we turned on the power swing by pressing the ctrl , so it would be much more comfortable.

[primal heart]

1200damage is definitely enough.if you want more damage and stun you need to cost more.
No other creature would have had the choice to deal such a big damage.
Under the current stm mechanism, 15% is not very reasonable, but if the stm can always recover, then 15% is normal

[dusky surge]

15% is not normal for literally anything.

1200 damage is not enough to deal with what's coming on the horizon

[primal heart]

Tyrannosaurus has been an excuse for Stego imbalance for three years.

As long as Tyrannosaurs don't exist, that makes sense

[uncut trellis]

I think Diablo is too large, it’s basically Styraco at this point. 2 tons should be max. And it has no business knocking over adult stegos. I’d excuse it more if it was Pachyrhino doing this, but even a 3 ton Diablo shouldn’t knock over a stego this easily. I haven’t done enough balance testing so far, but I do know it’s still killable at this size so it’s not all bad. But the ideas I have for Diablo would make it a far different dino than it is now.

[west plank]

Will it come out as 3 tons or 2 tons from hordetest?

Also, if you had to choose between a 1.5 ton and a 2 ton model, which one would you choose?

[uncut trellis]

No idea but I’d personally hope for 2. But the Diablo I’m thinking of should only need to be about 1.5 tons, but that’d also require changes to Omnis pounce/pin. By that I mean no dino above 1200kg or so should be pinnable unless they bring it’s bleed or stam to a certain level

[west plank]

There have been a lot of balance changes in the game, I think this should be fixed as soon as possible.

Version 0.15 was very stable when it first came out

0 lag 0 balance problem

[uncut trellis]

I like the idea of a smaller, faster Diablo. Diablo doesn’t have any standout traits like the other ceratopsians, so I like the idea of it being a small but hardy generalist. It’s still capable of fighting anything up to carno in size, but it’s bleed resistance and such would arguably make it tougher to take down than a Styraco, at least for an Omni pack

[west plank]

Yes, pin updates were even more difficult than big matches.

[uncut trellis]

Since allo is coming this early, I’m fine with Diablo being this large for now, at least it gives allo competition. They could easily change its weight and size when Styraco comes in

[west plank]

I think the old 1.5 ton Diablo would be fine with some added agility

[uncut trellis]

I would make it’s turn radius better yes

[west plank]

So if the next Dino is going to be Allo, maybe it could be, but I wouldn't want Diablo to be bigger than Allo.

[uncut trellis]

3 tons is only slightly bigger than allo if the charts are correct, so it’s not so bad, it’s still got bad bleed resistance, and allo is a bleeder

[west plank]

Many dinosaurs turned out to be smaller than the legacy version. It looks like the allo will be between 2.5 and 2 tons.

[dusky surge]

i dont think dibble has like, any bleed res lol

[uncut trellis]

And if pounce to pin doesn’t change than it’d only take one allo to pin even at this weight. But then again they did say more changes to it are coming

[dusky surge]

1.5 ton dibble just seems like allo food to me tbh

i can't see a reality where it makes sense for dibble to be outspeeding allosaurus

[uncut trellis]

Got soloed by one raptor as an adult Diablo, sure feels like it

[primal heart]

You can run from allo

[dusky surge]

how

like how is dibble going to be faster than allo lol

[uncut trellis]

That’s why I’d make it fast, 42kph at most

[primal heart]

How fast you think allo should be？

[dusky surge]

jesus christ no

[west plank]

1.5 tons diablo can hit 300 and knock down an allo.

[dusky surge]

dibble running down tenos and ceras? absurd

teno is confirmed 100% to be the FASTEST quadruped the game will ever have.

[uncut trellis]

I’d adjust their speed too anyway

[dusky surge]

why?

just seems like you're speed scaling the entire roster

[primal heart]

Maybe faster than rex

[west plank]

So in my opinion a diablo shouldn't be heavier than carno

[primal heart]

anyway Rex run 38.2 is too fast

[dusky surge]

i hope dibble is more than "maybe" faster than rex

[uncut trellis]

Kentro, Diablo, Teno, and Magy should all be faster than Rex imo

[west plank]

I found the speed multiplier of Boar and Rex in the game, but I could not measure the speed of Boar. If you find it for me, I can tell you this.

[uncut trellis]

It would depend how fast rex is though, 35kph I think is good for it

Maybe even with an ambush speed, however that’s implemented

[dusky surge]

ideally rex won't have that

ideally nothing will have that, and if anything does, it's just allo

[west plank]

If boar's speed is 22, rex's speed is 38.91

[dusky surge]

why would you not compare with a dinosaur rather than comparing to an AI lol

[uncut trellis]

That’s why I wanna wait for how ambush goes so I can have a better opinion on it

[dusky surge]

again, assuming we even get it

[west plank]

because I went through all the streams and only found rex and boar's

[uncut trellis]

That speed is too high imo

[west plank]

If you measure the exact speed of the boar I can calculate it for you exactly.

[uncut trellis]

Are you basing it on the footage we have?

[west plank]

If it is 21, Rex speed is 37.14

[west plank]

I rate the speed multipliers in Dondi's streams

[uncut trellis]

My ideal rex is 35kph normally, 40kph ambush that lasts 5 seconds max

[dusky surge]

just don't give it ambush please

my ideal rex doesn't have that insanely unfair and unfun mechanic

[west plank]

I don't know if there will be ambush speed, but Dondi's speed in his last stream is around this.

[dusky surge]

almost absolutely, rex will not have ambush speed, i'm certain of it given the direction they're taking rex

[uncut trellis]

I’d also make it so it drains like half its stam if used the full time, and considering rex is bad at stam usage period, a good rex player should use it sparingly

[west plank]

Allo is possible too, but Rex is a bit overboard.

[uncut trellis]

And not when he’s in the open

[dusky surge]

still unfair and unfun

just don't have it

you don't need ambush speed to ambush, just literally ambush the thing

[west plank]

Just give me crush ability and that's enough for me

[uncut trellis]

Suit yourself I think it can be fine as long as it’s not implemented like legacy

[dusky surge]

the best way to not implement it like legacy is not implement it lol

[uncut trellis]

lol

[dusky surge]

having the ability to outspeed creatures that literally die the moment you touch it is uh

bad

you want to ambush something? actually ambush it

[west plank]

One of the things I'm most curious about is, when Rex pins the stego, will he have the stamina to kill him with a single stamina?

[dusky surge]

don't rely on a crutch speed boost mechanic, then call that an ambush, because it's not

you won because you were mechanically favoured, not because of a skilled ambush

[uncut trellis]

If most of the creatures are faster than you, like even 40kph is behind Teno speed, it’s also partly why I’d make Teno and cera slightly faster

[west plank]

I think Rex should be killed by crushing a stego with 100% stamina.

[dusky surge]

or just scale back rex's speed rather than do that, because the idea of a stego having to deal with that speed of rex is absolutely unfair

[west plank]

speed is not that important

There's no need for speed. If he catches you, all he can do is pin and kill.

[alpine plover]

I’m just hoping stego finally decides on what its niche is going to be centred around before Rex comes, if it doesn’t by then idk what to say

[obtuse ocean]

You mean rex dont need speed ?

[tall bronze]

https://tenor.com/view/michael-scott-the-office-steve-carell-thanks-annoying-gif-8726320

[west plank]

Of course he needs speed, but he doesn't need an ambush speed.

[obtuse ocean]

Yea but then he got to be really fast for a very short time. If stego was carnivore, i have no clue how it would ambush anything lol

[west plank]

rex will crush his opponent to death

[obtuse ocean]

Yea, dont matter if it cant catch anything.

[abstract dawn]

I forgot to respond to this. Then something needs to change. I don't find this current exchange acceptable. Regardless if the diablo fresh spawn dies. That insane damage reduction lives up to the insane part.

Lower the value, the weight, I find diablo too good at what he does rn

Break his kneecaps a bit, not too much.

[alpine plover]

#balance-feedback message @pine robin

Dilo doesn't need this tbh.

[regal tulip]

With an ambush, it doesnt need "ambush speed" for that. Wait for your prey to eat, drink, sit, talk and then engage. If rex is gonna have a oneshot ability like deino everything else has to be faster.

[dusky surge]

literally

if you cant catch anything, that's because you can't set up an ambush, not because you don't have ambush speed

[dusky surge]

the entire reason power swing got nerfed so bad (and given the loud as hell sound cue) was because stego players were ambushing with it lmao

rex will be fine

LAND DEINO is a viable ambush strategy in some cases lol

[west plank]

Despite this much weakening, I don't think Rex can touch stego.

[dusky surge]

again, you underestimate rex

[west plank]

As soon as he gets close, he will retreat by taking a power swing to his head.

I want to main stego just for this

[dusky surge]

i guarantee you, rex will win in stego's current state

[west plank]

It seems to me that stego's range is much longer.

[dusky surge]

not really

well, not enough to matter

[west plank]

So, in my opinion, as Rex comes to the stego with its mouth open, if the stego hits him in the mouth, it will push Rex backwards and stun him, and since he will receive 1.5X multiplier damage, his health will drop to at least yellow status.

[west plank]

so Rex loses here

[dusky surge]

it still has yellow health. Rex bites stego's head, it does 2x damage, and if it has 1000 damage, it does 1/3rd of its health

it can also just grab and crush the stego, since it does the same to an adult parasaur in the concept art

[west plank]

So this is like a carno tenonto situation because if carno comes with a charge and tenonto hits with his tail or kick, carno loses.

[dusky surge]

carno can't hold teno in place and crush it

[west plank]

I think stego will win, I can't be convinced right now.

[dusky surge]

i disagree heavily, i think you're overlooking rex's clear strengths (health advantage, speed advantage, pin)

[west plank]

So, as you said, if Rex can attack again and pin after getting stun, I agree with you, otherwise, if stego hits by stun 3-4 times, Rex will not have a chance.

[west plank]

I'm also wondering if Rex will be able to crush the stego to death when he pins it at 100% stamina.

[slim dragon]

That's half stego's stamina, so it better not miss a single swing, and not have pressed the sprint button once in the last 10 minutes

[golden coral]

Not only is it a lot of stamina, it's also the cooldown, so unless rex gets stunned long enough, stego can't even hit again in time

Oh and then there's stun immunity normally, so you can't be stun locked, so rex can just tank one stun, then go in for the crush

[dusky surge]

yup

[alpine plover]

Are teno and deino the only creatures that are technically in a “good” state?

[golden coral]

Depends on how you define "good"

[alpine plover]

in way that you barely see any balance posts regarding those two

[umbral solar]

Once more apex’s come out isn’t deino going to get buffed to be able to compete with Rex ?

I remember hearing that some where

[golden coral]

Ah, well, maybe so. Or it's that people don't care right now due to everyone being dibble instead of teno perhaps. Not sure on how people see deino, but I think it might be okay as it stands, at least better than before when it was just smooth sailing as it were.

[dusky surge]

god i hope not

it really, really doesn't need to do that, at all

[umbral solar]

Well it would make sense since deino is a apex and when spino comes out spin is going to be able to grab deino

[golden coral]

Depends on how you mean with "competing". It can drag swimming stegos, might get that upped to dragging swimming rexes and trikes too, if they come in at 8T and you can also then drag another adult deino.

[dusky surge]

like it can literally survive rex instantly by just submerging itself lol

[umbral solar]

And deino is stuck to water sources

[dusky surge]

pretty sure devs have said deino is NOT an apex

[umbral solar]

Really?

[golden coral]

But if deino can't grab a stego on land, I really don't see it doing any better vs rex or trike, it would do worse if anything

[umbral solar]

Yeah probably what they meant

[dusky surge]

well, yes, because it gets stomped by the majority of apexes

spino especially

[umbral solar]

Yeah spino will be able to grapple deino

Probably

[golden coral]

Neither deino nor stego are considered apexes, and if stego is better off "not where rex is", then deino is probably the same

[umbral solar]

Yeah but hopefully they make it so you can grab a Rex or trike if they swim but but you can’t if they just drink kinda like how stego is right now

People would be less likely to just swim across like people used to do with stego before

[golden coral]

Might, but it could also not be so, since that'd mean they'd have to either up deino weight, or let it grab its own weight in water

Not sure if that would be a good idea

[umbral solar]

Own weight would make deino 1v1s who ever can grab first so that’s out the question

Had to be buff weight

[dusky surge]

it really doesn't need a weight buff tho

like, it pulling a stego is already a tall ask

[golden coral]

Then you'd probably have to buff stego weight too

[umbral solar]

Also I read y’all were talking about stego did you know it can do 2 swings instantly now

One power swing and then spam the button to use a regular one

Kinda dumb in my opinion the power swing cooldown should apply to every swing you can do

[golden coral]

No doubt they'll "fix" that too

[dusky surge]

absolutely not

[golden coral]

Are you serious? There shouldnt even be a cooldown

[alpine plover]

Now im wondering what would happen with Sucho

[dusky surge]

its already been beaten down enough

[golden coral]

Why do people want stego to be utterly useless

[dusky surge]

i miss when it actually could swing its tail and then not immediately just forget how to do that for 3 seconds because there should be no reason a tail flick drops power stance

[golden coral]

You know, maybe they ought to put a cooldown on deino lunge then, oh and the bite too of course. Would make as much sense, can't lunge what you dragged into water again, and can't just drag it in, then bite it to death as easily

[umbral solar]

Bro buff it once allo comes out or when Rex comes out but right now cera gets one shot by power swing the main thing to take down stego before carno has never had a chance and omnis get camped out most the time

[dusky surge]

"cera gets one shot by power swing"

good?

[golden coral]

Right, and none of those hunts deino, or should hunt stego

[dusky surge]

like how is that a problem lol

[umbral solar]

Because the roster is small right now

[dusky surge]

we have deino and its been as unkillable as the day it released

[golden coral]

Why should stego be made useless because of roster mismatch, or for that matter, set a bad precedent

[dusky surge]

deino literally just being an unkillable god for literally dozens of updates has yet to change

[alpine plover]

Only counter to Deino is another deino lol

[golden coral]

Right, and we can lower deino weight to 6T, just let it drag everything but stego then

[umbral solar]

It’s not useless all I’m saying is that if you use a powerful move you shouldn’t be able to do a normal attack instantly

[golden coral]

Well, you shouldn't have a cooldown on your moves at all really

[umbral solar]

Yeah because of the small roster right now

[dusky surge]

meanwhile stegos get attacked by and are threatened by:

• omnis
• ceras
• dilos
• troodons
• deinos
• other stegos
• tenontos (very very good at killing you)
• diablos (VERY VERY good at killing you)

[golden coral]

Most of the time that just makes the playable really bad off

[umbral solar]

The Diablo issue is its own thing bro herbi on herbi conflict should be fixed

[golden coral]

If you can't, you now have an opening on 3 seconds

[dusky surge]

its not something to be fixed

herbis should have the ability to fight herbis, its not a carebear group

[golden coral]

You know, sure, have 3 seconds cooldown on missed pounce as well

[umbral solar]

yeah if you swing and stego won’t swing until your sure it’s a hit then what ever the target it most likely dies

[dusky surge]

you couldn't do that before the cooldown or stam changes. The addition of them just make the animal clunkier

[golden coral]

After all, why should one of the most powerful playables get away free with everything

[golden coral]

Right, trading, which means you need to give up health to guarantee a hit

You don't see how bad that makes the playable?

[umbral solar]

No stego has enough range where you can hit a swing before getting hit

[golden coral]

No, it does not, because the attacks are so very baitable

Which is another part of the issue, the entire animal is clunky, or well, new swing wasnt, until they made it clunky too

[dusky surge]

i like how stego runs out of stamina within the first minute of the fight, then it literally just spams its jab until it gets grappled and dies

[umbral solar]

I think you might just suck at stego man I’ve killed many stegos before as a cera and the only ones I don’t fight are the ones who have patience

[dusky surge]

"the animal is clunky to play" is not a skill issue, its a design issue

[umbral solar]

And I’ve played stego before power swing and you could still kill almost everything

Your saying that me spamming right click with no consequences it’s okay

[dusky surge]

poor controls for the creature is not on the player

[dusky surge]

at literally zero point was that sentiment ever made

[golden coral]

Right, which works, but isn't fun or engaging

So no, it's not a matter of being bad, it's a matter of the playable being bad

[golden coral]

Yes, I could too, but it relies entirely on trading, or otherwise being far too stationary and waiting for the target, which can then just wait you out

[umbral solar]

Here Erik said that there’s a opening for 3 secs but there should be because it’s a powerful move you miss Womp Womp u get hurt how it is

[golden coral]

It was very nice to have some more pressure with the charge swing, but then they added massive stam cost, and on top of that, the cooldown

[golden coral]

Yeah, and that's bad design and unfun

[umbral solar]

Stego isn’t bad tho?

[golden coral]

But it is

[dusky surge]

The way to play stego right now is

• Abuse terrain
• Abuse overpowered mutations
• Spam your jab because it's the only move that doesn't cost all your stam
• Jam your head into obstacles

Because otherwise, you die, but if you do ANY of these things, you're cheesing and therefor unfair

[dusky surge]

It most absolutely is

[umbral solar]

That’s every fight tho 💀

That’s a isle issue

[dusky surge]

From a sheer game design perspective, stego is godawful

It has to be, atm, the worst designed animal in the game from a player experience PoV

[golden coral]

Swing already had a "raise tail again for new swing", no need for a cooldown

[dusky surge]

It is just insufferably clunky, it literally feels like a PoT animal, not an Isle animal, it's that bad

[golden coral]

3 seconds of full opening is utterly bad

[umbral solar]

But if you don’t miss you one shot sounds like a good trade to me

[dusky surge]

Not really no

[golden coral]

Yeah, it's basically "wait for move cooldown", right, then give deino lunge a cooldown, give omni pounce a cooldown (god knows it needs nerfs with the new grapple), and so on

[golden coral]

No, no it's not, because you shouldn't have to trade to guarantee a hit

[umbral solar]

Yeah I wouldn’t mind those cool downs

[golden coral]

Then you've literally removed the "reach" advantage

[dusky surge]

If the basic experience sucks, the growth to reach that experience sucks harder, and the overall animal controls like a brick with wheels, that's a failure

[umbral solar]

You don’t have to trade stego swing has a huge hitbox

[dusky surge]

You do if you want a GUARANTEED unpunished hit

[golden coral]

It doesnt, it has very tight hitboxes

[dusky surge]

Because if you miss, it's way worse for you because of that insane stam drain

[golden coral]

The swing even more than the jab

[umbral solar]

Bro the power swing right now the hitbox has a bug where it triple hits you it goes through your tail body and head to get 3 hits

[golden coral]

Right, but I would, and I don't think any attack should have a cooldown, it's not PoT mmo abilities after all

[golden coral]

... That doesn't change what I said at all, and far as I know, it's meant to go through the tail

That was actually mentioned in a devblog, that it had to be adjusted otherwise the attack would stop at tail/tailtips and well, that would make it very bad

[dusky surge]

It prioritises specific hitboxes, it doesn't apply the damage for all of them

[golden coral]

Not sure if it's meant to hit through the body, that does sound like a bug

[umbral solar]

Okay do me a favor stand up and kick the air then try to do that over and over within seconds

[dusky surge]

That would be tiring. AKA, stamina.

[golden coral]

Right, so give everything a cooldown then

And yes, stamina at that. Which was also unreasonably increased for that matter

[dusky surge]

Literal PoT combat design lol

[umbral solar]

Like I said yes

[golden coral]

Sure, I guess itd be fair at least

[dusky surge]

So PoT

[golden coral]

But it sounds like PoT combat yes, or just mmo

[umbral solar]

Deino shouldn’t be able to spam lunge and Omni shouldn’t be able to spam pounce

[dusky surge]

You've just reverse engineered path of titans

effectively

[golden coral]

I would honestly rather have "spam" because it makes fights more dynamic

And more engaging, and thus more fun

[umbral solar]

No it’s realistic tho remember when Omni missed pounce and it would have a small get up animation?

[golden coral]

Yep, and then they removed it, because it didn't "feel good"

[dusky surge]

Then they gave that exact feeling to stego lol

I like when I have to consider more openings in someone's defenses than "well hes on cooldown, free bite time"

You know. Combat. Not cooldown counter

[umbral solar]

You can really only get one off before it goes to swing again

[dusky surge]

That's more than enough

[umbral solar]

But like I said just down swing 🤷 until you know you can hit the target with either range or you miss and get punished

[golden coral]

The thing is, you already could, after a power swing you had to recharge the tail

[umbral solar]

Seems like combat to me

[dusky surge]

That's how it worked before, you don't need a cooldown to achieve that

[golden coral]

So the cooldown just made the attack clunky and bad

[dusky surge]

Stego lacks the fluidity and engagement that comes with combat of every other animal. Because of the cooldown, and that godawful stamina cost. It literally feels antiquated in comparison to literally every other creature

[umbral solar]

Nope you don’t u can do a power swing then normal then go back to power stance a good stego is never going to get hit and if they do they get damage on the target for it and with the smaller roster right now basically means the fight is over or you killed them

[dusky surge]

Diablo is another big heavy herbivore with a stance swap, except that guy actually controls and feels nice

[golden coral]

Deino does suffer similar issues, though it only really "fights" its own kind

But even that engagement is similar to stego, clunky and unfun

At least if you're above 6T, otherwise you get grabbed

[umbral solar]

Okay so you guys are saying stego doesn’t feel fluid because of a cool down

[dusky surge]

More than just that but it feels godawful, yes

[golden coral]

You literally had to recharge the tail even before the cooldown, there was no need for a cooldown. As for "should stego be able to throw out a normal jab after a power swing", yes, assuming the swing is all done. If you can throw it out to "cancel" the power swing, then it's an issue

[umbral solar]

The power swing animation is like a mili second so you have to chances to hit a target before getting bit

Sounds fair to me

[dusky surge]

Imagine getting a shiny new feature, then it gets slapped with a cooldown and stamcost that removes the entire fluidity from its mechanics and leaves you better off just spamming the jab move you already had

[umbral solar]

Okay so you do want to be able to spam the new power swing

[dusky surge]

No.

I want it to not be godawful

[golden coral]

Basically, I am saying that making the playable clunky, limited in offensive pressure (and giving it that in the entirely wrong way for that matter) and making it cost massive stam was unneeded. The stego was finally fun and good, and all they had to do was add 5% to standing swing, 10% to running, 4% for the jab. And then rebind the jab to alt RMB, and make the running swing hit on the side you're looking. After that, it would have been fine. Any dibble issue could have been solved with either A, speeding up juvie/sub dibble (preferable, why is slow juvies fun) or slow down stego juvie/sub to dibble level of speed or near it.

[dusky surge]

And usable in a fight for more than literally the first minute

[golden coral]

You couldn't spam it, you literally had to raise the tail again

That's no more spam than any attack

[dusky surge]

You couldn't spam the running power swing, and the flicks didn't cover 180 degrees of your body

[umbral solar]

So a cooldown HUH??

[dusky surge]

There was counterplay well in advance

[dusky surge]

YES.

It ALREADY HAD A COOLDOWN that fluidly integrated into its kit

So the new cooldown is not only unnecessary, it completely botched the fluidity of the creature

[umbral solar]

Bro when it came it out I tested it didn’t feel like there was a cooldown tho?

[dusky surge]

EXACTLY

[golden coral]

It also has very limited range, but yes, and that was nice. Then they added the stamina cost, and then the cooldown, and made it all worse. Which is why I take issue with the changes. It was fine, you had a quick, responsive attack you could use properly. And then now you're not allowed to have that. They could have nerfed the damage on the standing swing if that was an issue (which they also did, so even more nerfs, on that and the running ones power)

[golden coral]

No, just the normal anim, like omni bite, and everything

[dusky surge]

The cooldown is there, but it's integrated in such a way that it feels like a fluid part of the kit, not a meaningless obstruction

[umbral solar]

But then the new cooldown is basically just showing you when you can swing again then a guide basically

[dusky surge]

The stance transition WAS your cooldown

[umbral solar]

Yeah but then you could stay in the stance indefinitely

[dusky surge]

And?

[golden coral]

There wasnt, that's the entire point. But you still had to take a moment or two to raise the tail. Just not an extra cooldown.

[dusky surge]

Just bait him out of it

[golden coral]

You couldn't spam the attack, but you could just it normally like other attacks

[umbral solar]

I’d be down to revert the cooldown of 3 secs for when your in the power stance you use a small % of stam for ever second your in it

[dusky surge]

No. That's even worse

[umbral solar]

And then what he uses his power swing then a normal one to hit me when I go in

[golden coral]

Just the normal anim that all attacks have, but then you have omnis going "cooldown" on their bites, when they never had one, just a bad anim

They should try out a 3 sec cooldown + the anim, see how that feels x

[umbral solar]

But omnis bite doesn’t one shot a full grown cera 💀

[dusky surge]

Literally every omni main cried about that cooldown for ages, yet justifies stego's current state

Not to say they weren't justified, omni's bite cooldown was stupid, but its pretty telling that they can't see the juxtaposition

[golden coral]

No, it's far longer. Before, you could just re-raise the tail, now you can re-raise the tail, then wait 2+ extra seconds for a cooldown before you can actually use the attack

[dusky surge]

Omnis pounce oneshots a fullgrown galli. We wanna nerf the hell out of that?

[umbral solar]

Idk stego feels fine to me right now it’s very strong in the hands of a good stego player but easy to take down when it’s not a good stego player

[dusky surge]

"The 6 ton, slow, stomping behemoth one shots better than the creature literally almost 2x faster than it"

Yea.

[golden coral]

Right, but that doesn't matter, because the power of the attack is not relevant for how effective it is to use it, or how good it feels to use it

Not to mention that omnis can "oneshot" a cera with grapple probably xD

Not sure how many omnis a cera can hold, but given enough, it'll die like anything else

[golden coral]

It's only strong due to "terrain" usage, not due to the stego itself

[dusky surge]

The hands of a good stego player are busy playing diablo or omni, because a good stego player knows when their playable sucks to play, and what the better options are.

[golden coral]

And that's what being a good stego player comes down to, it's not about your own skill, it's about hiding in terrain and hope the other guys gets bored first

[umbral solar]

Yeah of course but your trying to compare a bite cooldown to a attack that’s meant to have lots of power but lots of downsides

[dusky surge]

Lots of downsides indeed. Including reduced power, apparently

[golden coral]

Also my point was purely that there's a difference between the anim, and having an extra cooldown on something